# Deplorable Condition of Toronto LFS



## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

I will first off state that I will not name names in this posting. If anyone is interested in hearing my personal views of the stores in Toronto they can send me a PM.

I have, since I set up my tanks, visited most if not every store mentioned on this forum and to date have found 3 that disgusted me to no end (and they were given such high praise that it makes me almost wonder about some of the members on this site), a few that were typical of the horror stories that I have see bandied about on most of the threads and 3 that I will continue shopping in for livestock.

The three that horrifed me were disgusting. In one store I visited today I not only say dead fish in most of the tanks but in one tank filled with small oscars there was a pile of fish in one corner of the tank that were dieing. I kid you not... A PILE!!! The rest of the fish in the tank looked to be within days of succumbing to a similiar fate. This LFS also used a centralised filtratioon system. This LFS has been given such high praise on this site too... however I looked around on a few other Toronto forums and it seem that others have seen issues in this store too.

When will they learn that centralised filtration only leads to mass outbreaks of disease.

Other stores also use centralised filtration systems and again I doubt I would shop at most of them if not all of them. Fish being sold out of tanks with VERY obvious signs of disease (both Ich and Fungus come to mind for one store in particular, plus that rather new disease that looks a bit like hole in the head that is affecting plecos), and again dead fish in tanks... so dead in fact that they were almost ekeletons in some cases.

Why do we put up with these stores? Why do we continue to shop at them? And why do we continue to rate them so highly when in actuality they are selling us malnourished, malfourned, diseased fish?!?

The few stores that I have seen that seem to care about their livestock, that seem to care about their customers enough to sell us healthy specimins are small outlets that I have rarely seen or heard of members talking about.

I am sorry but I think it is high time we discussed the quality of the stores in Toronto. If only so that people know where to shop and where to stay away from!


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

DING DING DING DING DING

Finally people are catching on.

The only passable aquarium shop in the city for freshwater IMO is Menagerie- but honestly though I hate to say it the systems there are in need of overhaul and the underfiltered overstocked tanks lead to not-so-great environments for the fish.

I've only bought from breeders for about a year now and I haven't had a SINGLE complaint, problem, disease, nothing. Not to mention I got to see the parents, where the fish were raised, and I got them for 90% off...

Honestly though. Death to Big Als, Superpet, PJs, petcetera, etc. all of em..


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

The store yesterday was the absolute last straw. It was disgusting. I have never in my life ever seen so mant dead or dying fish... not even in a Zellers or Wal-Mart fish department!

The problem is that most people do not know of any local breeders untill they really start to do some research. Furthermore untill the new hobbiest goes online and really begins to dig they are at the mercy of the LFS around them and know no better. Plus we do not have the access to sites like Aquabid.com that the US have. I have just begun purchasing online and got some very healthy RCS from a breeder out in BC. However these local and Canadian breeders are hard to find. They don't advertise all that well and are only found by word of mouth a lot of times.

Suggestions?


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

You should have access through your local aquarium club to CAOAC breeders directory. That is a good starting place to get to know local or even national breeders.
Club auctions are also a good source for locally bred stock. A word of caution about auction items; check them out carefully before bidding on them. I've been caught a few times bringing home deformed fish. But that was my fault for bidding on them unseen.


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Hey Knave,

I think I know who you're talking about, the guy in BC who sells the RCS for 1$?

How were they and how much did it come out to with shipping, etc.?

Thanks


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

They were great. Even though there was a day's delay by Canada Post they arrived all in good condition and actually a few came saddled. He ships them in breathable bags so I attribute that to none being dead. If you are interested his name is Paul and you can contact him at www.dwarfshrimp.com


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Shipping from BC to Toronto was CA$19.00 sorry...

By the way still can't edit posts.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Ooh this is a nice _meaty_ subject to talk about on Saturday 

If you would like to see just how _good_ it can be check out my article on my visit to a shop in England last August. I'm good friends with Emma the fish buyer. They never even put fish on sale for weeks sometimes until they've been treated and fed well up into a _really_ healthy condition.

http://www.loaches.com/articles/is-this-the-best-loach-shop-in-the-world

Their stock list would make you weep compared to most TO shops....honestly.

Martin.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

The sad thing is, most people once they get to a certain level will stop buying fish from big box stores- but we're all usually still guilty of buying equipment from them.

Its unfortunate, because if we stopped doing that and everyone just flooded menagerie it would accomplish several useful things:

Menagerie would make lots more money and become overcrowded- which would both contribute to a sizeable expansion of the fish section and price reductions due to increased volume of sales. It would also send the message to big boxes that people actually care more about animal welfare and fair practices than saving ten dollars here and three dollars there.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

And ya that store Martin was talking about is almost too well run. Most people's home tanks pale in comparison


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Sorry. Brain is on reserve and i cant edit posts..

I was in Petcetera yesterday and was quite upset when I told the girl that ALL the fish in the 'asst eartheaters' tank were infact Cichlasoma synspilum.

I was informed that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.

Damn townies...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Wow... i am happy i have never been there...


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Well they are MAC certified (whatever that means) but the Aquarium Council does have offices and you can reach them at http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/contactus.html#HQ this page.

Now... that leads to the next question... what the heck is that?


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

its about as far from any kind of authorotative or regulatory body as you can get that's for sure


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## elmer (Jul 18, 2007)

I have to say that Petcetera disgusts me. Every time I go there I find dead fish. There are very few fish there that, looking at their behaviour, you could imagine were comfortable. Most of them are listless. Last time all the saltwater tanks were dark blue clouded and there were still several fish living in that.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

elmer said:


> I have to say that Petcetera disgusts me. Every time I go there I find dead fish. There are very few fish there that, looking at their behaviour, you could imagine were comfortable. Most of them are listless. Last time all the saltwater tanks were dark blue clouded and there were still several fish living in that.


Oh dude I completely agree. Sadly its the best thing in the area.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

They have mono's at walmart... D:

They are black....


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## ontariobetta (Mar 13, 2006)

Which Petceteras are you talking about? 
I work at the one in Newmarket and our tanks are fine and fish are healthy. Except of course for the algae when we get behind in scrubbing...But other than that we keep our tanks well maintained, and from what I hear were one of very few who do....


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

> I was in Petcetera yesterday and was quite upset when I told the girl that ALL the fish in the 'asst eartheaters' tank were infact Cichlasoma synspilum.
> 
> I was informed that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.


Possibly (though somehow I doubt it) because the species is now called _Vieja synspila_.










Martin.


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## PalermoPenano (Jul 17, 2007)

Just wanted to add a comment on one of the fish stores that knave mentioned (in my pm of course). It was absolutely disgusting, I saw those pile of oscars dying in the corner in two of the tanks. They were probably the same ones you saw. I also saw a poor adult oscar (9" long) that was in a tank with less than 10 gallons of water and barely had any fins left. I wanted to put it out of its misery by dumping my medium ice cap in the water but thought it was a bad idea when I saw a rough looking dude behind the counter staring at me. They had a nice planted tank in the back though, but it wasnt enough to compel me to purchase anything. 

There was also a similar pet store in whitby that had tanks that were twice as bad as the one mentioned above. I was going to purchase their last sterbai for 6 dollars to save it from such horrible condition, but then i thought to myself, this thing must be loaded with disease. Kinda felt bad thought but I'm not about to put the rest of my fish at risk. 

Does anyone know how these stores manage to stay open? I mean, any normal person with some very basic knowledge of fish keeping (me) knows that they should leave when they see something like this. How do they ever profit from diseased and dying fish?

Big als also had a couple of dead arowanas in their tank. Arent those things 100 something dollars?


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

MT-ED said:


> Possibly (though somehow I doubt it) because the species is now called _Vieja synspila_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...












I don't play into the whole taxonomy shuffle myself...
Archocentrus is better than Cryptoheros, Aequidens was a better family for keyholes than cleithacara, etc etc.

I think they're actually screwing up more than they're fixing...

Its a cichlasoma.


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## gblackma (Nov 29, 2006)

I agree with you guys that certain stores are very lax in their tank maintenance. However, I might add as managers change in the bigger chains, so does the maintenance. Some maintain better tanks than others.

I would suggest an ongoing thread could be created that lists the stores that we have been to and our personal experiences with them. If there is a change in management, and the impact on maintenance etc. This way, we can know which stores and when to avoid them.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

gblackma said:


> I would suggest an ongoing thread could be created that lists the stores that we have been to and our personal experiences with them. If there is a change in management, and the impact on maintenance etc. This way, we can know which stores and when to avoid them.


As much as i would love a thread like that... the legal side of it scares the hell outta me..

Does anyone know how that would work without you getting sued? lol

Too me it seems just the same as a movie reviewer.. You still have a choice to go see the movie.. *shrugs*


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Hmmm it all has to do with wording.. such as if i say so and so doesnt clean his tanks or medicates his fish.. I am stating that as a fact but i really am not 100% that is true... however i am still libel because it appears to be fact.

However... if i said, In my opinion the water isnt taken care of and the fish do not look as if they get medicated. Thats my opinon and not a fact. I could make it look even better by maybe inviting the person to see the store and see for themselves.

Every store will have a bad day/shimpment/whatever. I find a good review comes from someone who has visited the store more than one time.. and a good reviewer would never tell someone not to visit any retail location. That is just inviting a lawsuit.

I dunno, its not my call atm.. but i would highly stress to everyone to watch what they say. Last thing we all need is to loose a buncha cash cause we ran our mouths off.. LOL and never.. ever.. use someones real name.. ever. unless you are 100% sure they wont mind.. and they offer it in public view..

Have a look at this link.. read it over.. tell me what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel#Canadian_law

trust me, i am pro reviews... i just dont want people to get screwed up the rump.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

There was a certain online pet chain that tried to name me in a lawsuit for slander and libel. Then again he tried to name everyone in that suit. However I was protected from the civil suit because I resided in Canada. I only mention that as making your views known in a public forum has led to lawsuits in the past by litigious individuals that own pet companies.

That being said we could do what Ciddian has stated in the previous post in that so long as the views expressed are the readers and you are not stating them as a fact then we could get around the slander and libel laws. 

I think though that we set up some rather stringent rules on how the posts can be put up and the information must be based on firthand knowledge. Furthermore anyone that posts must agree that their post is subject to editing so that if they accidentially say that such and such store isn't doing something a mod can come by and add the "in my opinion" line there to protect all involved. I think if we can find some good icons for Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down we can use a rating sytem or three up to three down so a scale of 1-6. As for disclaimer, if we post at the top of the thread section that the "opinions expressed are that of the poster and do not necessarily reflect... blah blah blah" we could mitigate some of the liability as well.

Some more that I would suggest, people will need to know that each store should be its' own thread and that all reviews of a specific store are to be posted in that thread. Mods can merge multiple threads about a single store. Certain things I think should always be included in the info about the store would be Auquarium Only (Yes/No); Appx Number of Sales Tanks; Appx Number of Display Tanks; Freshwater/Saltwater/Plants (one or the other or all); Supplies Sold; Major Brands Sold; General Conditions of Store; General Conditions of Fish; General Conditions of Plants; Filtration Systems (if apparent); QT of Fish (if known); and of course the standard Name, Address, Telephone and Hours of Operation.

Alright that is all I can come up with for now...


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## gblackma (Nov 29, 2006)

If you put up a specific statement like I was in this Name of pet store from This time to this time on this date, and saw this problem/liked etc with such and such an name of issue. etc. I dont think that this could be construed libel, since its a true statement made in good faith about the state of the store at that time.


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## PalermoPenano (Jul 17, 2007)

You get qualified privilege for slander and libel as long as you can prove that the statement you expressed about the fish store was made in good faith without malicious intent you. Even if it was subsequently proven to be false. But it is in your duty of care to do your research to ensure that any statement you make about the store is actually true. I think it's in the best interest of the consumer (especially those who are vulnerable because of the lack of knowledge they have about fish keeping) to know the conditions of these stores (if it were true). This alone can be used as a defense as far as I know.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

KnaveTO said:


> As for disclaimer, if we post at the top of the thread section that the "opinions expressed are that of the poster and do not necessarily reflect... blah blah blah" we could mitigate some of the liability as well.


Awesome tips Knave. 

I just wanted to add.. By joining this website, we all agreed that whatever was expressed in our posts was of our own and that none of the Gtaa staff or owner can be held responsible for it.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Another site that I frequent has coded the site to block out the words to protect itself from this very thing. Walmart comes up as nnnnn etc. Most adults are responsible enough but there will always be at least one who likes to stir the pot so to speak. Me I don't stir the pot, I order take out.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

Katalyst said:


> Another site that I frequent has coded the site to block out the words to protect itself from this very thing. Walmart comes up as nnnnn etc. Most adults are responsible enough but there will always be at least one who likes to stir the pot so to speak. Me I don't stir the pot, I order take out.


Oh yea....well nnnnn sucks!!!


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

jrs said:


> Oh yea....well nnnnn sucks!!!


What are we going to do with you? lol


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

yeah well I think most of us agree that it sucks... lol

on a side note I want to name names in this thread... after all if people don't know who is being promoted and demoted how can we help out the newer hobbiests as well as protect ourselves from the unethical stores.


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