# Big als water conditioner or equivalent



## fish_luva

Hello everyone, Another quick question to get everyones thoughts and comments on.

The Big als water conditioners: Should these be used? Are they necessary? Are their other products that are just as good and cheaper?
Should there be other products that i should use as well such as Big Al's Multi-Purpose Bio-Support which contains 300 million live bacteria?

I know that BIG als is not the only place that carries such products. So if they are required can someone recommend other product names and locations to get them?

I've done my last 2 water changes without them and i'm wondering if it will affect my tank....

thanks everyone
sheldon


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## Hitch

wait, you did your last two water changes without treating the new water with anything? that is very bad expecially if you were to do a large water change....the chorine in the water intended to kill bacteria in tap water will also kill the bacteria built up in the filters.

So you would need to treat the water with some sort of de-chlorinator. 

Any brand would do really, but personally, I go for Prime, made by Seachem. They are very good and popular amongst the hobbyists.

As for the bacteria, you will get mixed reviews, but most (including myself) think they are just a hoax and a waste of money.


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## Gshock

seachem prime, very concentrated dechlor, well worth the money as it'll last you a very long time. Do you even have your tank cycled? BA live bacteria works fine, but alternatives such as biospira or seachem stability also work.


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## Darkblade48

Most people agree that live bacteria products *do not* work, unless you are using Biospira, and even then, the results are iffy.

For dechlorinators, as mentioned, Seachem Prime is excellent. Mops is having a sale for 500 mL bottles of Prime; only $9.95 each (buying 4 bottles is cheaper than buying the 2L bottle!).


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## Gshock

Are you doing it properly? I've cycled all my tanks with either seachem stability or the big als stuff and they're all running strong.


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## Darkblade48

Gshock said:


> Are you doing it properly? I've cycled all my tanks with either seachem stability or the big als stuff and they're all running strong.


Perhaps it worked for you, but many people have said that these products do not work to speed up the cycle at all.

There are a multitude of threads with regards to this theme on various forums that I frequent, and it is a general consensus that these products do not work. I do not use these products, since in the majority of cases, the instant cycle promised is not delivered, or is only achieved only marginally faster (i.e. 3.5 weeks vs. 4 weeks normal cycle).

Regardless, I always plant heavily from the start, so it doesn't really matter to me. In addition, not having to buy such products means more money to spend on other things


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## Zebrapl3co

Give seachem Prime a try and see if it works out for you. Before I switch cloram-x, Prime was a very good choice for me as it's much cheaper than then other brands. You'll notice this very quickly if you have 8 tanks. Also, from observation, the fish didn't seem to react to prime while they seem irritated with several of the other dechlor that I used.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## fish_luva

*heh Everyone, my tank is actually cycled.. *



Hitch said:


> wait, you did your last two water changes without treating the new water with anything? that is very bad expecially if you were to do a large water change....the chorine in the water intended to kill bacteria in tap water will also kill the bacteria built up in the filters.
> So you would need to treat the water with some sort of de-chlorinator.
> Any brand would do really, but personally, I go for Prime, made by Seachem.


 ### Yikes,,, yes, guilty as charged, I do about a 20% water change mostly on fridays and didn't use any treatment the last two... Guess i still have a lot to learn.



Gshock said:


> seachem prime, very concentrated dechlor, Do you even have your tank cycled? but alternatives such as biospira or seachem stability also work.


### Tks Gshock,, the tank is cycled, Been running at present setup since about mid august.



Darkblade48 said:


> Most people agree that live bacteria products *do not* work, unless you are using Biospira, and even then, the results are iffy.
> For dechlorinators, as mentioned, Seachem Prime is excellent. Mops is having a sale for 500 mL bottles of Prime; only $9.95 each (buying 4 bottles is cheaper than buying the 2L bottle!).


### tks for the comments and tips on the purchase...

Everyone: So when i do these water changes, i should be putting this in the water right away as i'm filling it with the Python hose correct????
Thanks again
sheldon


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## fish_luva

Zebrapl3co said:


> Give seachem Prime a try and see if it works out for you. Before I switch cloram-x, Prime was a very good choice for me as it's much cheaper than then other brands. You'll notice this very quickly if you have 8 tanks. Also, from observation, the fish didn't seem to react to prime while they seem irritated with several of the other dechlor that I used.


Thanks for the personal experience on this Zebra,,,, prime seems to be the way to go so far,,,,,,,Wow, i've never used a declorinator in about 8 months..... Doh,,, do i have a lot to learn yet......Thank-god jack dempseys are pretty tough.......
cheers!!!!!


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## gucci17

lol we all make mistakes! Don't worry about it. Just get your @$$ to your LFS and pick up some dechlorinator.

It's a good thing you brought up this thread. Never hesitate to ask any questions because you feel they may be stupid. If we all felt that way, we would never learn. This is a great community with knowledgeable hobbyists who love to share their experiences.



> Everyone: So when i do these water changes, i should be putting this in the water right away as i'm filling it with the Python hose correct????


You are correct. For the times that I have to fill from the tap, I add it first before turning on the water.


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## Gshock

Darkblade48 said:


> Perhaps it worked for you, but many people have said that these products do not work to speed up the cycle at all.
> 
> There are a multitude of threads with regards to this theme on various forums that I frequent, and it is a general consensus that these products do not work. I do not use these products, since in the majority of cases, the instant cycle promised is not delivered, or is only achieved only marginally faster (i.e. 3.5 weeks vs. 4 weeks normal cycle).
> 
> Regardless, I always plant heavily from the start, so it doesn't really matter to me. In addition, not having to buy such products means more money to spend on other things


The products dont gaurantee an instant cycle though. They only speed up the process. A normal 4 week cycle is shortened into 2 weeks, which sounds pretty good to me.


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## planter

the BA bacteria worked for me. I tested it on two ten gallon tanks. One was treated with the bacteria one was not. I cycled both tanks using the fishless cycle method. 

I had the tank that was treated cycled in two weeks. The other one took 5 weeks.

I have heard that there is a lot of mixed results using these products. My little experiment proved that it can work. Not that it always does.


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## Hitch

that is what the product claims, but how is it proven. 

being a microbiologist, I am super skeptical about these kinds of products. 

A few of the main problems in my eye are:

1) how are they guaranteeing the results? I havent found one literature on the products. Everything known about the effectiveness of the product is the manufacturer's claim. 

2) there are a couple of different bacteria genus and species involved in the possible nitrification cycle in the aquarium. I dont think any literature have even identified the type of bacteria so how are these manufacturers sure of their claims?

3) this is purhaps my main concern, is the fact that they are saying they are providing "live" bacteria. Many of the cases, these products sit on shelves for long periods of time before opened and used in the aquarium. There is no mention of any growth media in the actual bottle to keep the cells alive (assuming there are cells in there to begin with). Then it comes to the problem of temperature, temp varry greatly from the plant to transport to finally ending up in the stores with no special storing procedures. This is just madness in my eyes that these companies are expecting us to believe that these air tight bottles are able to keep these aerobic (need Oxygen) bacteria alive in the quantities they claim for long periods of time. 

And to be honest, even if you take a cycled sponge either from sponge filter or in a power or canister filter and squeze it in the new tank, you would probly be releasing more live benefitial bacteria then spending money on those bottles.

With that said, I mentioned in my first post that the views are very varried when it comes to these products. But to me, its a placebo....but thats just me.


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## Big Ray

Big Al water conditioner is a bit acidic and if u are to do alot of water changes, ure PH sure will drop, and cause stress in ure fish, depending on the kind of fish ure keeping.
Prime is the best conditoiner out there. but more expensive
ure best bet is to get a container, a small heater and an air pump. fill the container, set the heater to ure tank temp. and put the air pump in, the water is conditioned and ready to use in 24 hours. u do still have some metals int here which can be removed by ure carbon.


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## Hitch

also you would need to worry about the ammonia in tap water if not using a conditioner.


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## fish_luva

gucci17 said:


> lol we all make mistakes! Don't worry about it. Just get your @$$ to your LFS and pick up some dechlorinator.
> 
> It's a good thing you brought up this thread. Never hesitate to ask any questions because you feel they may be stupid. If we all felt that way, we would never learn. This is a great community with knowledgeable hobbyists who love to share their experiences.
> 
> You are correct. For the times that I have to fill from the tap, I add it first before turning on the water.


Well heh, i don't mind being laughed at.. have a whole bunch more doozies for everyone later on for sure as i learn .... I'm planning on buying a large tank soon and i want to build my own stand and so forth and get some second hand stuff to help me along so i plan on documenting that whole process with pics and so on.. can't wait.....

i'm assuming big als carries most of those products for chlorine as this is basically the only real fish store out in the durham region, except for pj's over at pickering........
cheers and thanks everyone so far.....


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## Marowana

Big Ray said:


> Big Al water conditioner is a bit acidic and if u are to do alot of water changes, ure PH sure will drop, and cause stress in ure fish, depending on the kind of fish ure keeping.
> Prime is the best conditoiner out there. but more expensive
> ure best bet is to get a container, a small heater and an air pump. fill the container, set the heater to ure tank temp. and put the air pump in, the water is conditioned and ready to use in 24 hours. u do still have some metals int here which can be removed by ure carbon.


i do weekly big water changes. i used to use aqua plus never had a problem, trying to save some $, i switched to big al's water conditioner within a month i see my fish stressing. so i tested my water and found out my ph was really low. i now use prime and it seems to be very good. also there are a few hobbyist in the gta selling it much cheaper than LFS.


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## qwerty

Big Ray said:


> Big Al water conditioner is a bit acidic and if u are to do alot of water changes, ure PH sure will drop, and cause stress in ure fish, depending on the kind of fish ure keeping.
> Prime is the best conditoiner out there. but more expensive
> ure best bet is to get a container, a small heater and an air pump. fill the container, set the heater to ure tank temp. and put the air pump in, the water is conditioned and ready to use in 24 hours. u do still have some metals int here which can be removed by ure carbon.


I do not believe this will remove chloramine, which is just as bad as chlorine. Chloramine is used in tap water specifically because it stays in water.



> also you would need to worry about the ammonia in tap water if not using a conditioner.


I may be wrong on this (and correct me if I am), but I believe the ammonia readings in our tap water is due to chloramine which also reacts with the tests.

Mind you I've never actually called up to inquire about what's in our water...



> this is purhaps my main concern, is the fact that they are saying they are providing "live" bacteria


I may be wrong on this too, I'm no microbiologist, but I believe that at least some of the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle has a survival mechanism that can keep it alive for VERY long periods without a food source when dried out. If this is accurate, then I think it's entirely possible to keep this bacteria alive in a special liquid solution for years.

And for what it's worth, I'm recommending Seachem Prime. It costs more, but it's 5x concentrated in comparison to tetra brand condition.


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## Darkblade48

qwerty said:


> I do not believe this will remove chloramine, which is just as bad as chlorine. Chloramine is used in tap water specifically because it stays in water.


Chloramine is technically worse than chlorine, at least for hobbyists.



qwerty said:


> I may be wrong on this (and correct me if I am), but I believe the ammonia readings in our tap water is due to chloramine which also reacts with the tests.


I am not too sure on this, but I believe the API test kits still reacts with the chloramine that has been treated with products such as Prime. Prime will break down the chloramine, and bind the ammonia in such a way that it is not harmful to fish, but is still "accessible" to the bacteria. I believe this bound form of ammonia still reacts with the API (salicylate based) ammonia test kits.



qwerty said:


> I may be wrong on this too, I'm no microbiologist, but I believe that at least some of the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle has a survival mechanism that can keep it alive for VERY long periods without a food source when dried out. If this is accurate, then I think it's entirely possible to keep this bacteria alive in a special liquid solution for years.


This can only be true if the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle can sporulate (which I do not believe they can...)

Otherwise, there is no other mechanism by which bacteria can survive dessication/lack of nutrients for long periods of time.


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## Hitch

lol.....So to sum up.

Tap water contains chlorines and chloramines (NH2Cl). The heat and air bubble through for 24 hours would remove most of the chlorine but do nothing to the chloramines (due to the fact that choramine is much more stable then chlorine in the water...thats why they add it in the first place). Prime does break down the chloramine and neutralizes the ammonia, but the ammonia is still present in the water...just not harmful. This is why even after Prime you could still get a reading.

As for the survival of bacteria. Sure bacteria may be able to survive without its main food source....but unless it can sporulate (which in a nut shell, puts it self in a shell and hibernates until the right environment presents itself), it wont be able to survive drought for a long period of time.


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## qwerty

> The starvation physiology of ammonia-oxidizing bacteria is characterized by a high tolerance to energy source deprivation while retaining the ability to quickly respond to the presence of ammonia, even after starvation periods of nearly a year (51). Ammonia-oxidizing bacteria do not exhibit the well-characterized starvation response strategies described for other bacteria. For instance, they do not undergo cellular differentiation, such as reductive cell division or sporulation, and in contrast to many heterotrophs, few proteins are induced in response to starvation conditions (6, 30, 34).





> Yet, ammonia-oxidizing bacteria maintain a state of cellular readiness during periods of starvation that is manifested during the subsequent recovery response. Therefore, available data suggest that a more complete appreciation of the adaptive physiology of this organism must include understanding the genetic and physiological processes associated with recovery from starvation.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1913382/

Just found that to be a little interesting and relevant to discussion...


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## Darkblade48

qwerty said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1913382/
> 
> Just found that to be a little interesting and relevant to discussion...


And to think I could escape lab-related paper readings during the Christmas break!

Time to break out the old reading glasses


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## Hitch

Darkblade48 said:


> And to think I could escape lab-related paper readings during the Christmas break!
> 
> Time to break out the old reading glasses


lol....ya it took so much restraint to not open that link..lol


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## Darkblade48

Hitch said:


> lol....ya it took so much restraint to not open that link..lol


But it's NCBI! NCBI!!!


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## Hitch

Darkblade48 said:


> But it's NCBI! NCBI!!!


lol.....ya Im going to pretend its not...lol.


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## shanexu

I use Aqua Plus tap water conditioner from Nutrafin. use it for my shrimp tank as well, pretty good i would say. cycling bacterias do not really help so don't waste money on those. if you want to minimize the chemical spiking during cycling try duckweeds. they are amazing, but you'll have to put up with the mess they sometimes create. =)


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## fish_luva

thanks for everyones comments... been using prime for about 2 months or so now and it seems to be pretty good......
Anyone know where to get it cheaper then big als??
thanks
sheldon


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## Darkblade48

fish_luva said:


> Anyone know where to get it cheaper then big als??


MOPS still has the 500 mL bottle on sale for $9.93. Might as well stock up now, if you haven't already


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