# Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides



## sig

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2203067&highlight=hydra

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## TankCla

Good one. Again, I am so happy with my T5HO's.


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## rburns24

It it wasn't for the heat, I'd be running halides, for sure.


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## conix67

I love corals under MH lights, especially SPS.

That said, this thread does not tell the whole story. It seems there are many who have been successful with LED light fixtures of variety of brands or even DIY fixtures, even in this thread.

Some people have been doing math to compare on cost concerns but it's not that simple. Good reflectors, bulbs and ballast cost money *and* space. You simply cannot make a good MH fixture compact enough which is required for many reef setup, like mine.

Heat is another concern, if not the major concern. This reason alone I had to give up on this idea, since I will need a chiller even with the full house AC running 24/7. Bulbs lose intensity very quickly and to maintain optimal light output you need to replace bulbs every 6 months, and this way you avoid re-acclimation of corals.

Compared to T5HO, there are many factors that makes MH light fixture more demanding in terms of maintenance, and I've been happily keeping my T5HO setup for years.

However, the lazy factor plus bulbs past due for replacement and all reflectors severely damaged from salt water splashes, I'm about to give the LED fixture a go. Small but a significant investment that might turn into a big gamble - looking at Malibu S300 over my 75G tank. Sig may not agree with this but I don't have much choice.


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## J_T

Never really left  I have a 400 watt single bulb over my tank.

One, I like halides. Nice spectrum, good spread (with reflector) and good depth penetration.

I have t5ho on my tank as well, but I keep going back to my single halide fixture


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## Bayinaung

a lot of the fancy expensive LED lights don't seem to provide good results. chinese leds are definitely giving good results at low cost too. and there's good reason. you really need to count the wattage, and look at the spectrum its putting out, in combination. take the required MH wattage, and use hafl that for LED as a rough estimate, I think you're going to be fine for the most light demanding corals.


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## Bayinaung

Hey conix, hadn't heard of malibu till now. where are you going to order those from? I just read that you can customize it? wow.


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## sig

conix67 said:


> However, the lazy factor plus bulbs past due for replacement and all reflectors severely damaged from salt water splashes, I'm about to give the LED fixture a go. Small but a significant investment that might turn into a big gamble - looking at Malibu S300 over my 75G tank. Sig may not agree with this but I don't have much choice.


The only problem that you have is that your tank hooded. the Malibu 300 will also get damaged if it will be 2"-3" from the water.
and

I always agree with you 

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## noy

there is a interesting thread on RC from d2mini (who has one the sweetest setups around) with calculations that maybe you don't save that much on electricity with LED's

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2380004


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## sig

Bayinaung said:


> a lot of the fancy expensive LED lights don't seem to provide good results. chinese leds are definitely giving good results at low cost too. and there's good reason.


are you serious?

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## TankCla

Bayinaung said:


> chinese leds are definitely giving good results at low cost.


I think he wants to say: chinese leds are finally giving some results for the price you are paying.


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## fury165

TankCla said:


> I think he wants to say: chinese leds are finally giving some results for the price you are paying.


Yes, sometimes that price is too high 
http://reefbuilders.com/2013/01/30/cheap-chinese-led-causes-fire/


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## aquatic_expressions

I have owned two radion g1's ... One has been sold and the other I'm using until I sell it so I can set up my G3 

I have had great results. I find that overall Ecotech IMO is the best LED Light out there. This is my bias opinion and these are the list of units I have used to come up with my opinion:

T5HO - Current Dual - Current NOVA - Current Sundial - Aquatic Life 4 Bulb
LED - Maxspect Razor - CherryLUMI(GARBAGE) - ML Single Double and Reef Light - AI Sol - Aquatic Life Expert Series 3W

I love metal halides and I think they are the best light but unfortunately bulbs are expensive, hydro is expensive, and chillers are expensive too


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## fury165

aquatic_expressions said:


> I have owned two radion g1's ... One has been sold and the other I'm using until I sell it so I can set up my G3
> (


Did you ever investigate upgrading the G1s to G3? I know they have kits, just curious..


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## aquatic_expressions

Im not 100% but I believe the Lens/led puck is the only part that is upgradeable. You cant upgrade the 1piece fan (I believe) and you can't upgrade the case for the buttons.

Plus I have a G3 already still in the package. I just need to sell my G1 first before taking it out but I have been itching to use it for almost a month now  lol...


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## aquatic_expressions

One unit I have always wanted to use is Pacific Sun. There lights look beautiful and they seem to be of great quality. What I also like is their Hybrid LED/T5 units. That should help great solve the problem with LED causing tissue recession due to shadows.


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## fury165

aquatic_expressions said:


> Im not 100% but I believe the Lens/led puck is the only part that is upgradeable. You cant upgrade the 1piece fan (I believe) and you can't upgrade the case for the buttons.
> 
> Plus I have a G3 already still in the package. I just need to sell my G1 first before taking it out but I have been itching to use it for almost a month now  lol...


Ah, gotcha..


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## Bayinaung

sig said:


> are you serious?


yes I am, from both boards and first hand experience of reefers. a couple of well known brands represented locally are known to have issues with SPS, and out of respect for their representatives I won't name them. but you must do your research.

Halides just considering the spectrum output for SPS growth is best - because it covers the WHOLE spectrum of visible to non-visible light where as LEDs cover only specific ranges based on the diodes in their lights. so if a specific SPS wants likes some spectrum that's not covered by your LEDS it may not do as well, but there's not been enough research done on specific spectrums and particular SPS species. this is what most peeps are missing when looking to switch lights, I find.

for LPS and zoas their lighting requirements are less demanding, so any sufficient lighting along with proper feeding will get them going.


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## aquatic_expressions

It would be good to know as this is a community of hobbyists. We should look out for each other.

I find that for soft coral & lps AI is great.
I find overall all coral EcoTech is # 1
I find that Maxspect you can grow things quickly but SPS begin to recede and lose lots of colour.


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## Bayinaung

fury165 said:


> Yes, sometimes that price is too high
> http://reefbuilders.com/2013/01/30/cheap-chinese-led-causes-fire/


yup, you can't go too cheap with LEDs. I just said i won't name brands so I won'[[t but there's another well know expensive brand LED that's popular with the reefers here that has been known to burn their boards - a fellow reefer just told me that last week he has those and the board burned in less than a year and almost caused a fire - and he paid over $600 per light!

I think you guys know which one this is.


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## Bayinaung

aquatic_expressions said:


> I love metal halides and I think they are the best light but unfortunately bulbs are expensive, hydro is expensive, and chillers are expensive too


amen, amen, amen, amen! lol


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## aquatic_expressions

I would like to know... can you pm me this info?


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## conix67

Another interesting discussion related to this topic, a bit more constructive on LED side..

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2315500


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## fesso clown

I don't think that naming brands is disrespectful to vendors and your posts aren''t really very helpful.... ie: some chinese LEDs are better than others...

What I love about my Radion is that I can emulate the color spectrum of any halide. It's all in the programming- my daily light schedule includes 10K 15K 18K 20K, a red sunrise, a purple sunset and royal blue moonlights. The programming capabilities of the Radion are second to none. 

I only have the G1, on my next build I will probably go G3. For now I am about to finally buy the TIR lenses. Anyone here have them?


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## aquatic_expressions

TIR Lenses... If you need more depth penetration get them... but if your corals are happy and you haven't gotten a deeper aquarium... no need to get them.

I love my G1 I also have a reef link set up on it and it is off the chain


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## fury165

aquatic_expressions said:


> It would be good to know as this is a community of hobbyists. We should look out for each other.


Couldn't agree more



Bayinaung said:


> yup, you can't go too cheap with LEDs. I just said i won't name brands so I won'[[t but there's another well know expensive brand LED that's popular with the reefers here that has been known to burn their boards - a fellow reefer just told me that last week he has those and the board burned in less than a year and almost caused a fire - and he paid over $600 per light!
> 
> I think you guys know which one this is.


No, I don't know which one it "is". I don't see any issues with naming brands here - there are no vendors represented here and furthermore information like this SHOULD be publicized. I'm not interested in the Ford/Chevy, America/China, Vegan/Carnivore type of debates - if there is an inherent flaw with a product that could cause catastrophic events for the owner, then it is our duty to alert the community.

Remember the Marineland heaters that exploded??? I had three of them and although mine were still functioning they were ticking time bombs.


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## ameekplec.

I think one of the things with LEDs is that they're a lot less forgiving and you really need to dial them into your system. I've never had MH, but I've seen a lot more "nice" MH and T5HO tanks than LED tanks.

I can say that while LEDs are great over frag tanks (I have an AI Sol), they really don't do as well for growth on SPS. Other things seem not to mind (softies, LPS), but SPS seem to colour up nicely but their growth definitely slows down.

I'm sure part of the issue is irrespective of MH, LED, T5HO, there aren't a whole ton of really nice tanks out there


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## Flexin5

i like my AI sols and hydra. so much that i'm going to upgrade the two sols to the the hydras aswell. i find that too many ppl spend time screwing with their lights and need to focus more on water quality. it's easy to blame the lights but in my experience with the AI's it turned out to be water quality and NOT the lights.

also i have a sol super blue on my frag tank that grows out and colors up coral very well.


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## Bayinaung

fesso clown said:


> I don't think that naming brands is disrespectful to vendors and your posts aren''t really very helpful.... ie: some chinese LEDs are better than others...


sorry not all chinese LEDs are equal. Evergrow is the one brand that's been proven to be reliable over the last few years. In canada their representatives give 3 year or 2 year replacement warranties. I heard of a story where they replaced a defective light no questions asked.

I spent many months reading up before going that route.


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## Bayinaung

Flexin5 said:


> i like my AI sols and hydra. so much that i'm going to upgrade the two sols to the the hydras aswell.


hey Flexin, you are one of the few exceptions when it comes to growing SPS with AIs. can you share what you've done to have this success? I read about one guy who started with 5 new hydras on a new build and dropped them in 6mths for T5s. another guy replaced his first gen evergrows with hydras and his SPS tank's struggling now. your tweaking would help them for sure!


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## Tristan

*my 2cents*

I don't get all the concern with heat being emitted from T5s or Halides. I have 8 39w T5s and one 250 Halide over my tank. The difference in temperature from my sump and the main tank is 1 degree.

The way I see it you really only save money if your using one LED fixture as the good fixtures are still all 150+ watts.

If you replace a 6 bulb t5 from say a 75 gallon tank you will need two Radions g2 to replace it, the g3s would be better. So your going from 6 *54w = 308 watts to 2*150 watts = 300 watts. Yes you likely wont be running them on full power, so lets say you only use 200 watts of electricity.

That means the difference is $2.15 a month in electricity if you pay $.0885/KWH and run your lights for 8 hours.

Add the cost of replacing the bulbs twice, you can get them on sale for $20-25 a bulb so we will say $150 for new bulbs every 6 months.

That means the total cost to run T5s is $325.80 a year more than LEDs.

That seems like a logical reason to switch BUT to switch to two Radions it will cost you $1356, which is 4 years of running T5s... I would rather pay out 1400 over 4 years than all at once...

If you go with the chinese fixtures it seems like it would be more cost effective but I want to be able to control them with my Apex if I am going to LED.

At the end of all of this you still get the hard shadows and the sps don't get the fullest colour like you do with T5s or Halides.

I will be sticking with my T5/Halide combo until I go bigger, you just can't beat the colour and shimmer. Halide is the ONLY way the tank looks natural IMO. The multichip LEDs are getting close but they aren't there yet.


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## advanced reef aquatics

good points
lighting is but one of many variables when it comes to sps.
my favorite is still 400w halides. for mix reef, led will suffice.
at current rates. a 400w halide would cost roughly $20/month.
bulb change at $80 per year...not too bad in terms of cost.
check actual wattage of many LEd fixtures, they are not as cheap to run as many think.


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## Flexin5

Bayinaung said:


> hey Flexin, you are one of the few exceptions when it comes to growing SPS with AIs. can you share what you've done to have this success? I read about one guy who started with 5 new hydras on a new build and dropped them in 6mths for T5s. another guy replaced his first gen evergrows with hydras and his SPS tank's struggling now. your tweaking would help them for sure!


mods forgive my language...but in short just don't f$&# with them. lol the problem with pale sps i had before was not due to the lights, but water quality (nutrients). there's a huge AI thread on nano-reef.com with users, and alot of people like to set 1400 different timers...i have 4 including moon lights, morning on and ramp up, mid-day ramp up and hold, nighttime ramp down, moonlights.

i actually snapped a quick pic of the tank looking nice and colorful when i was reading this thread last night but i forgot to upload it.


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## conix67

It all comes down to person choices for various reasons. I'm not going with MH because of a few reasons that are probably unique to my situation/preference


MH or MH/T5 combo is not possible without significantly modifying the canopy setup I have
I'm lazy, want to minimize maintenance tasks - replacing bulbs every 6 months is something I'd like to avoid if I could
Heat is definitely a concern. You can't tell just by comparing sump temperature vs main tank on this. On hot days in summer /w AC on, water temperature hovers above 83F /w lights on.
Any savings on electricity is welcome. T5 tubes must be disposed of properly due to environmental concerns.

I'm currently running 6 54W T5HO setup under canopy without splash protection over my 75G. Bulbs and reflectors are all in big mess and I do need a new fixture (or total bulb/reflector replacement). It does the job, but the lighting quality has obviously degraded and colourization of corals are affected.

Now, with all the warning signs I'm going to venture into the LED system for several advantages, again for my situation


Fixture asthetics - looking at 48" fixture which can just sit on top of canopy, simplest installation
Advantage in heat disappation and ability to control the tank water temperature on hot summer days
No need to replace bulbs
Ability to control light intensity
Price - not going to bother with high end systems like Radion

and based on my own experience and readings (I have been running a DIY retro fixture over my planted freshwater tank over 2+ years with a great success, which proves LED lights are sufficient for photosynthesis in aquatic plants), it is necessary to get proper light spectrum at correct intensity from the LED lights which is where the uncertainty is with any lights in the market - I sure hope high end (more expensive) ones have been tested properly for these requirements for those who purchase them.

In the end, it is still not necessarily a proven technology. You need to understad what is expected, and potential failure is one of them.


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## sig

Bayinaung said:


> hey Flexin, you are one of the few exceptions when it comes to growing SPS with AIs. can you share what you've done to have this success? I read about one guy who started with 5 new hydras on a new build and dropped them in 6mths for T5s. another guy replaced his first gen evergrows with hydras and his SPS tank's struggling now. your tweaking would help them for sure!


here is just one point that you missed during months of research.

evergrows LED are good with all types of corals, because they are nothing. 
As we say in Russian - no meat, no fish.

It is like Toyota corolla, good reliable car - but it has no characteristics.

I seen evergrows in action and I like colors, but to compare them to Hydra or Radion it is a joke.

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## fesso clown

sig said:


> here is just one point that you missed during months of research.
> 
> I seen evergrows in action and I like colors, but to compare them to Hydra or Radion it is a joke.


Indeed.

Radion success? FTW!


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## Flexin5

sig said:


> here is just one point that you missed during months of research.
> 
> Evergrows led are good with all types of corals, because they are nothing.
> As we say in russian - no meat, no fish.
> 
> It is like toyota corolla, good reliable car - but it has no characteristics.
> 
> I seen evergrows in action and i like colors, but to compare them to hydra or radion it is a joke.


^this! ..........


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## wtac

My issue w/LED lighting when they first came out has been the number of LED "colors" that they offer in a system and the limited colors that were available. It was a natural progression and demand, they created the different colored diodes.

It has been in my head that the more LED combinations they offer, individual color/channel adjustment, etc, the better the lighting system will "fulfill" the photosynthetic spectra of the various photosynthetic pigments of coral zooxanthellae. Which color combination and how many at what power? IMHO, it gets muddled due to the "eye of the beholder". 

I know of many AI systems that have great color and growth but in essence of all reef systems, it is a balance of light, nutrient import/export and water parameters.

As for "Chinese" LEDs vs top tier brands, it's a debate that is a life of it's own with many factors. Sure price is a main consideration but one has to look into what they want to keep and level of control one can have with "X" lighting system.

JM2C


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## Bayinaung

Flexin5 said:


> mods forgive my language...but in short just don't f$&# with them. lol the problem with pale sps i had before was not due to the lights, but water quality (nutrients). there's a huge AI thread on nano-reef.com with users, and alot of people like to set 1400 different timers...i have 4 including moon lights, morning on and ramp up, mid-day ramp up and hold, nighttime ramp down, moonlights.
> 
> i actually snapped a quick pic of the tank looking nice and colorful when i was reading this thread last night but i forgot to upload it.


hmmm I'll send you someone over who's made the switch. maybe he can still salvage something.


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## Bayinaung

sig said:


> I seen evergrows in action and I like colors, but to compare them to Hydra or Radion it is a joke.


yeah it is a joke bud. Hydra and razor SUX. they kill SPS for most people. someone invested in 5 new ones and dumped them six months later - I can show you the thread! Flexin is an exception I know of. I have heard Razor has had board issues - burns and melts stuff, not enough power for SPS, etc etc. I haven't heard much bad things re: Radion, from what I've seen wasn't blown away by them. peeps have had good results but it costs 3x Evergrow. as for all of them yeah sure the housing looks pretty. but if the light costs you like a porsche and looks like a porsche but gives you the performance of lada, well, if that's what you want, that's what you get! I don't disagree with you - comparing them is a joke. I thought we were talking about performance, NOT looks. Evergrow loses on looks but wins on performance, and wins on price-performance.


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## blunthead

you can now send your radion g1s to ecotech and for $175 they will upgrade your unit to g3 output or $275 to g3pro


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## fesso clown

Not to turn this into a Radion Fanboy thread but... I...I... Ok... I admit it, I am a fanboy. There are a few other "GREAT" LED units on the market but sorry to say 2 channel manual "dimmable" types ain't one of them.



wtac said:


> It has been in my head that the more LED combinations they offer, individual color/channel adjustment, etc, the better the lighting system will "fulfill" the photosynthetic spectra of the various photosynthetic pigments of coral zooxanthellae. Which color combination and how many at what power? IMHO, it gets muddled due to the "eye of the beholder".
> JM2C


Part of the reason for the expense of the Radions is the number of controllable channels and the programming software. There are presets for 5K, 7K, 10K, 12K, 14K, 18K, 20K, Deep Blue, All Blues, Blue, White & Royal, White, White & Red, Red, not to mention the ability to create your own light schedule to suit your own "eye of the beholder" 


Bayinaung said:


> but if the light costs you like a porsche and looks like a porsche but gives you the performance of lada, well, if that's what you want, that's what you get! I don't disagree with you - comparing them is a joke. I thought we were talking about performance, NOT looks. Evergrow loses on looks but wins on performance, and wins on price-performance.


nope, nope, nope. Lada? Common. We are talking about performance, Yes the housing is sexy BUT it is what's under the hood that counts and like I said it's the ability to control each and every color channel and overall intensity to come up any spectrum you wish that makes the Radion ONE OF THE BEST LED options out there. Expensive? Sure but this hobby ain't cheap and if you want Porsche performance you pay for it.












blunthead said:


> you can now send your radion g1s to ecotech and for $175 they will upgrade your unit to g3 output or $275 to g3pro


This is great to know, more fanboy points for Ecotech Tech. Sounds like a Porche type company upgrade path to me. However, I am absolutely satisfied with my G1, I haven't even switched over to Echosmart live yet because I programmed my unit when I bought it and left it. Great results.

For those looking to spend a little less I suggest keeping your eyes peeled for used G1's although I bet the only people selling them are peeps who upgraded to G3's or shut down their tanks....


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## aquatic_expressions

Lol. I have a g3 already brand new in the box. I was under the impression that you can only upgrade g2 to g3 not g1 to g3. 

Anyways anyone looking for a g1 I have one for sale. Still in use until it is sold and picked up


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## TankCla

After months of research, articles, and forums I still can't say LEDs are good or bad. In the end is only the individual experience. Very few can make a difference between MH/T5 and LED, but always MH/T5 were the winners.
Why do I get the same feeling like soy milk: it is milk, but is not milk.


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## conix67

Does anyone have link to the coral specifies and the depth at which they are collected? I'm trying to better understand what color spectrum is critical for the corals I have in my tank.


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## Bayinaung

hey conix, I found this to be a good one:

http://coral.aims.gov.au/info/factsheets.jsp

there maybe better resources out there.

Here's an article from a year ago that you might find useful!

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/aafeature
lots of scientific language, but bottom line - coral types and what light they like.


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## Bayinaung

after re-reading that article, I'd jump on LEP fixtures if I can find reasonably priced ones. they seem to be able to produce uv-a that LED can't.


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## TankCla

conix67 said:


> Does anyone have link to the coral specifies and the depth at which they are collected? I'm trying to better understand what color spectrum is critical for the corals I have in my tank.


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## TankCla

Interesting how millepora and pocillopora are not growing under LED.


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## fury165

TankCla said:


> Interesting how millepora and pocillopora are not growing under LED.


From the article


> Acropora millepora
> 
> Due to water turbulence in the LED system, several coral replicates were accidentally scrambled. As the fragmentation rocks were unlabeled, growth rates under two irradiance treatments (125-150 and 275-325 µmol m-2 s-1) could not be reliably calculated.





> Pocillopora damicornis showed negative growth rates under all LED treatments, which was a result of tissue necrosis. It is unclear why this occurred, but it may have been due to limiting water flow rate. As only moderate water flow rates were measured in the systems (below 10 cm s-1), an accumulation of photosynthetic oxygen and heat within the tissue may have resulted in mortality (Fabricius 2006; Mass et al. 2010a). It is known that highly energetic blue light stimulates photosynthesis in zooxanthellae most efficiently (Halldal 1969), which may require higher water flow rates to remove excess oxygen and heat from coral tissue. It is however unclear why the other species in this study did not show such an adverse effect to the high blue LED spectrum.


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## TankCla

fury165 said:


> from the article
> 
> ...chromatic adaptation of the symbiotic zooxanthellae of acropora millepora to a high-red spectrum may explain why this species grew faster under lep...


I am starting to believe that led are good only for display and not for healthy tank, and that sells more.


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## Bayinaung

awesome chart claud.


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## conix67

What do you think of this? http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/red-light-negatively-affects-health-of-stony-coral

Very interesting...


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## Bayinaung

conix67 said:


> What do you think of this? http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/red-light-negatively-affects-health-of-stony-coral
> 
> Very interesting...


Yeah VERY. and makes a lot of sense. keep red to a minimum. now the flourescence cells are different from the photosynthetic cells right? is the relationship of the two inversely correlated?


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## rickcasa

FWIW, a quick glance at Reefkeeping's TOTM this past year is pretty telling. Some achieved their success using a combination of the different forms of lighting. But MH is by far the choice of champs (8), followed closely by T5 (6), and only 3 used LEDs. Of these 3, only 1 used LED exclusively (Arduino controlled DIY) while 2 others preferred to pair it with T5s. Unfortunately, none of the brands mentioned in this thread is hung above a TOTM tank this past year.

Here's the tally:

MH - 4
MH/T5 - 4
T5 - 1
T5/LED - 2
LED - 1

Note, I ignored LEDS used only for moon/dusk/dawn tasks.


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## conix67

rickcasa said:


> FWIW, a quick glance at Reefkeeping's TOTM this past year is pretty telling. Some achieved their success using a combination of the different forms of lighting. But MH is by far the choice of champs (8), followed closely by T5 (6), and only 3 used LEDs. Of these 3, only 1 used LED exclusively (Arduino controlled DIY) while 2 others preferred to pair it with T5s. Unfortunately, none of the brands mentioned in this thread is hung above a TOTM tank this past year.
> 
> Here's the tally:
> 
> MH - 4
> MH/T5 - 4
> T5 - 1
> T5/LED - 2
> LED - 1
> 
> Note, I ignored LEDS used only for moon/dusk/dawn tasks.


This is not very surprising and there's no dispute in the fact that MH is by far the best lighting system for both growth and color. Many of us simply cannot afford MH for various reasons, or even T5s and only other alternatives happens to be LEDs.

It is for this reason that people are hopeful of having success with LEDs, as it does appear to be a competent lighting system for any type of reef tanks as long as we nail down on the specifics of what makes LED systems suitable.

Also, the trend appears to be slightly different over in Europe. Here's a full LED system running a very nice tank.


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## conix67

Bayinaung said:


> Yeah VERY. and makes a lot of sense. keep red to a minimum. now the flourescence cells are different from the photosynthetic cells right? is the relationship of the two inversely correlated?


I'm not sure if they are inversely correlated, but the florescence cells are different from the photosynthetic, or they use up different part of the light spectrum.


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## wtac

Lani makes a very sleek lighting system. For 3 LEDs (6 for the Pro) making the color spectrum, this is an ultra premium cost product. You think Pacific Sun, GHL Mitras or Radion G3Pros are expensive you don't want to know the price on these.

That being said, they (Lani) developed the Triton method for a successful reef.


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## conix67

wtac said:


> Lani makes a very sleek lighting system. For 3 LEDs (6 for the Pro) making the color spectrum, this is an ultra premium cost product. You think Pacific Sun, GHL Mitras or Radion G3Pros are expensive you don't want to know the price on these.
> 
> That being said, they (Lani) developed the Triton method for a successful reef.


I guess that means it's out of reach for most of us. The Triton method is very interesting read in deed!


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## sig

*LED vs Hydro bill*

There is another issue with LED. Probably, it is just for my system, but instead of reducing Hydro bill, I will get increase.

With T5s (11 hours per day), my 300W heater was barely in use when lights were on. Now with LED it runs non stop, even with temperature reduced from 78 to 76.5.

T5s 39x4 = 160W
LED ~ 50 % on = 2x60W = 120W plus 300W heater = 420W

160W vs 420W

Looks like cost of bulb replacement will be less than total of hydro increase

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## conix67

sig said:


> There is another issue with LED. Probably, it is just for my system, but instead of reducing Hydro bill, I will get increase.
> 
> With T5s (11 hours per day), my 300W heater was barely in use when lights were on. Now with LED it runs non stop, even with temperature reduced from 78 to 76.5.
> 
> T5s 39x4 = 160W
> LED ~ 50 % on = 2x60W = 120W plus 300W heater = 420W
> 
> 160W vs 420W
> 
> Looks like cost of bulb replacement will be less than total of hydro increase


Well, what you're saying is that the T5s were more effective heaters than the submerged heaters, but that can't be true. Besides, when the lights are out the heaters must run anyway.

Anyway, people are more concerned about overheating the tank due to the heat from the lighting system, rather than the other way around. During summer months, even with air conditioner on, my tank temperature was hovering around 84 or even higher sometimes. This gets very dangerous and I added fans to avoid this. Now with LEDs, such worries are gone and it's easier to manage the water temperature.

We'll see how it goes about overall hydro bill situation.


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## sig

conix67 said:


> Well, what you're saying is that the T5s were more effective heaters than the submerged heaters, but that can't be true.
> *I did not say it. The point was that T5s helped to heat tank *
> 
> Besides, when the lights are out the heaters must run anyway.
> *That is correct, but in my case it saved me 10 hours x 300W, when the lights were ON.
> *
> Anyway, people are more concerned about overheating the tank due to the heat from the lighting system, rather than the other way around.
> *As I mentioned it was the case for my set up with the sump in the bacement*
> During summer months, even with air conditioner on, my tank temperature was hovering around 84 or even higher sometimes. This gets very dangerous and I added fans to avoid this. Now with LEDs, such worries are gone and it's easier to manage the water temperature.
> *I agree it is easier to manage the water temperature using another $20-30 per month. (in my case) *
> We'll see how it goes about overall hydro bill situation.


It worked for me 

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## conix67

sig said:


> It worked for me


Yes, everyone's situation is different. I'll be able to find out more this summer but the heat issue also affects other areas such as the power head. One of the reasons I have an MP40 was for this reason - the dry side which generates heat was not adding heat to the water in the tank. If the heat from lighting system is no longer concern even in the summer, I have more choices on type of power heads I can have.

I think in your case the external return pump is also adding to your issue. In my case the return pump is submerged and it is another mild source of heat in the system.


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## goffebeans

Speaking of heat, just something to take into consideration. 

Your tank dissipates a lot of heat, making the room warmer than the rest of the house. I happen to have the thermostat in the same room and as a result the rest of the house is actually a few degrees cooler.


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## sig

Agree. I got convenience by having sump in the basement, but should pay a price for it

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## TankCla

sig said:


> Agree. I got convenience by having sump in the basement, but should pay a price for it


Off topic: Are you not concerned about heat and moisture in the basement? I get through 5 gallons of evaporation each week, and I really saw the moisture in my apartment, in the winter, at -30C. The window in front of the tank had ice flakes, and the rest was clear.


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## sig

TankCla said:


> Off topic: Are you not concerned about heat and moisture in the basement? I get through 5 gallons of evaporation each week, and I really saw the moisture in my apartment, in the winter, at -30C. The window in front of the tank had ice flakes, and the rest was clear.


I had sump there for 3 years. Last year, I decided to change furnace and return line. It was completely rusted inside and it was also problem that I decided to shut the 150G tank.
This time I contacted technician who did the job and he told me that this rust was there long before I had the tank.

I never got mold in this room

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## WiseGuyPhil

Back to the OP. If you look at any thread posted (not what my best friend said) regarding LEDs vs Halides, its simply down to one thing. UV.

To those who ran halides and switched to LEDs I encourage you to touch your coral... Did you ever notice that your SPS is less "slimey?"

There is a simple reason for that.... UV. LEDs do not produce the same amount of UV rays that a halide gives off. Corals protect themselves by secreting a slime coating. Its what gives your coral colour. T5s can product this, but often need to cover the different spectrums by using different bulbs.

In order to get your coral to get the you would need 10-20 UV LEDs alone to get the same amount of light. Additionally the UV spectrum is not the same in LEDs vs Halides and you would need various different LEDs to acheive this some of which cost over 75$ per LED. 

SPS can survive under LEDs as like most creatures in this world as they will adapt to their environment. However, if your looking for a long term solution especially if your purchasing wild specimens... halides will provide your best current option until they come out with a cost effective plasma fixture.


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## sig

interesting. Thanks for sharing Phil

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## CanadaCorals.com

We are also in the process of "dumping" our very expensive GHL Mitras in exchange for Metal Halides on our SPS system and we don't regret it for one second.

The rapid change in SPS coloration just can't be compared to LED and I have tried all major brands (EcoTech Radion, AI Hydra, etc..).

I absolutely love the idea of LED. There are so many advantages over T5 and MH but they just don't have the correct spectrum yet. I can't wait for technology to catch up!


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## Patwa

WiseGuyAquatics said:


> Back to the OP. If you look at any thread posted (not what my best friend said) regarding LEDs vs Halides, its simply down to one thing. UV.
> 
> To those who ran halides and switched to LEDs I encourage you to touch your coral... Did you ever notice that your SPS is less "slimey?"
> 
> There is a simple reason for that.... UV. LEDs do not produce the same amount of UV rays that a halide gives off. Corals protect themselves by secreting a slime coating. Its what gives your coral colour.


I agree about UV being the missing link in current generation LEDs vs halides - the fact that some LED manufacturers are coming out with UV 'add-on" kits is simple proof of this.

But where did you read that the slime coating an SPS produces is what gives it its colour? I thought the slime coating is only in response to irritants (ie. UV, pests/predators, extreme flow)....isn't the symbiotic zooxanthellae the only reason they have colour?


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## conix67

Patwa said:


> I agree about UV being the missing link in current generation LEDs vs halides - the fact that some LED manufacturers are coming out with UV 'add-on" kits is simple proof of this.
> 
> But where did you read that the slime coating an SPS produces is what gives it its colour? I thought the slime coating is only in response to irritants (ie. UV, pests/predators, extreme flow)....isn't the symbiotic zooxanthellae the only reason they have colour?


Well, I heard many reasons for the bright attractive SPS colors but zooxanthelles are not the one giving the nice color. There's only one color for zooxanthellae - brown.

Are there more stories about UV being the missing link in LED fixtures? Don't we use glass to block off (or filter out) UVs from MH lamps?


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## Patwa

conix67 said:


> Well, I heard many reasons for the bright attractive SPS colors but zooxanthelles are not the one giving the nice color. There's only one color for zooxanthellae - brown.
> 
> Are there more stories about UV being the missing link in LED fixtures? Don't we use glass to block off (or filter out) UVs from MH lamps?


not to detract from this lighting thread....

there is most definitely more than one colour for zooxanthellae...but keep in mind it is not the "colour" of zooxanthellae per se, it's the composition of the zoox and thus, how it refracts light (reds, greens, blues, etc) and how that light is interpreted by our human eyes. Check your sources.....zooxanthellae is the only reason corals have "colour"...that is, the brown (the most pervasive colour, by far, on the reef) and the red, greens, blues and everything in between we see.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/corals/coral02_zooxanthellae.html

send me a pm with info on how the slime gives an SPS its colour....i really want to read up on this.

sorry for the thread hijack!

z


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## Patwa

conix67 said:


> Don't we use glass to block off (or filter out) UVs from MH lamps?


MH lamps filter out the most harmful UV rays, but part of that UV spectrum, the "safe" part, I guess you can call it, makes it through. It's engineered that way.

http://www.reefs.com/blog/2011/07/15/beware-of-the-broken-halide-bulbs/


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## sig

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/red-light-negatively-affects-health-of-stony-coral

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## WiseGuyPhil

Sorry, you are correct, good catch Patwa. My meaning behind that statement was to say the layer of slime produce by sps is used to protect its colour and encourage zooxanthellae to grow. Here is a great explanation for it:

Color Loss Of SPS Corals

Acropora (and SPS corals) lose color under less UV radiation, the nice colors that all reefers want is basically a sunscreen that protects the zooxanthellae algae that feed the coral through photosynthesis the "sunscreen" comes from mass amounts of UV radiation and light and this tells the zooxanthellae algae living within the corals tissue that it needs to protect itself from bleaching and then it becomes a bright color, When corals are exposed to a lesser amount of light the coral will become a more subdued color because the bright sunscreen is not necessary to protect the zooxanthellae algae from bleaching (or in some cases a different kalvin rating like 6K,10K,14K and 20K, usually the higher the kalvin rating the more colorful your SPS will be). For instance if an acropora is blue and purple in a tank lit by a 400 watt 20K metal halide light and then put in to a tank with a 150 watt 10K metal halide the color may be more subdued instantaneously or over time.

Cheers.



Patwa said:


> I agree about UV being the missing link in current generation LEDs vs halides - the fact that some LED manufacturers are coming out with UV 'add-on" kits is simple proof of this.
> 
> But where did you read that the slime coating an SPS produces is what gives it its colour? I thought the slime coating is only in response to irritants (ie. UV, pests/predators, extreme flow)....isn't the symbiotic zooxanthellae the only reason they have colour?


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## advanced reef aquatics

Actual U.V. is minimal at best reaching the corals under any type of lighting, as Zach said, most lamps and fixtures have filters to ensure this, on metal halide its the outer sleeve of the bulb, on double ended its the glass cover of the fixture, there are quite a number of tanks running LED on sps with success, light is only part of the equation for coloration.
i prefer MH for punch and overall look as well, i just dont think its strictly UV thats the issue in sps tanks.


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## wtac

The glass/shielding on the MH bulbs filters out a significant amount of UV-C but still allows UV-A and UV-B to pass through, although at a smaller % than what the ignited gas emits.

The "convenience" of MH combination w/T5HO, IMHO/E is unparalleled for growth and coloration to "our eye". Instert, install, power up.

Having used Pacific Sun, GHL Mitras and Radions, I find I spend more time adjusting the color channels and intensity. Overall they always seem to lack "the warmth" of MH/T5 and T5HO lighting systems. I can set a comparable K value but it has a hollow strain on the eye...if that makes any sense.

One factor that I have not seen anyone investigate is a spectrometric analysis of the LED light for a given location within the aquarium. It seems to me that PAR/PUR, the individual system "performance" seems to be the yardstick of measure. IMHO/E, it's all trail and error w/all the channels starting from a "preset" in the LED light program. 

Spectrometers w/the appropriate accessories is what is required to answer these Q's. Unfortunately they are out of the price range for the vast majority, including LFS, installation/maintenance companies.

JM2C


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## conix67

wtac said:


> Having used Pacific Sun, GHL Mitras and Radions, I find I spend more time adjusting the color channels and intensity. Overall they always seem to lack "the warmth" of MH/T5 and T5HO lighting systems. I can set a comparable K value but it has a *hollow strain on the eye.*..if that makes any sense.


I understand what that means, but I get the same impression on MH only tanks - although it varies depending on the type of bulb used. I guess the unique characteristics of T5HO or florescent lamps is what many people prefer.


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## conix67

Patwa said:


> not to detract from this lighting thread....
> 
> there is most definitely more than one colour for zooxanthellae...but keep in mind it is not the "colour" of zooxanthellae per se, it's the composition of the zoox and thus, how it refracts light (reds, greens, blues, etc) and how that light is interpreted by our human eyes. Check your sources.....zooxanthellae is the only reason corals have "colour"...that is, the brown (the most pervasive colour, by far, on the reef) and the red, greens, blues and everything in between we see.
> 
> http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/corals/coral02_zooxanthellae.html
> 
> send me a pm with info on how the slime gives an SPS its colour....i really want to read up on this.
> 
> sorry for the thread hijack!
> 
> z


Well, that's not how I understand it. Zooxanthellae have just one color, not necessarily through the composition of different colors. For example, the florescent pigments on corals are more than just having *some* color to it, but it absorbs one color spectrum and emits another. These pigments (proteins) are not part of Zooxanthellae.


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## conix67

I don't know if this was referenced already, but here's another interesting article about reef lighting. In short, it summerizes 400nm to 500nm being most crucial to photosynthetic corals, while 400nm to 450nm is most important for colorization.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

Another interesting point is that it claims 300W LED fixture is equivalent to 900W T5HO in terms of light energy it emits to aquarium.


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## Jiinx

I was pretty set on getting some LEDs after spending a few years with T5s on freshwater and with my corals..but I'm hesitant to try LEDs and losing the brightness that T5s provide..

Sorry to bring an old thread to life but just wondering if anyone on the forum here is doing t5 solely or t5s with MHs? My 48" inch teklight is too long for my new 34 inch cube so I need a new light fixture and was debating between a razor or just sticking with t5s. 24"? 36"? Raise it high? Keep it low?

Thanks!
Sarah


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## TorontoPlantMan

Jiinx said:


> I was pretty set on getting some LEDs after spending a few years with T5s on freshwater and with my corals..but I'm hesitant to try LEDs and losing the brightness that T5s provide..
> 
> Sorry to bring an old thread to life but just wondering if anyone on the forum here is doing t5 solely or t5s with MHs? My 48" inch teklight is too long for my new 34 inch cube so I need a new light fixture and was debating between a razor or just sticking with t5s. 24"? 36"? Raise it high? Keep it low?
> 
> Thanks!
> Sarah


Hey Sarah; I know I am not a saltie but I am big into lighting and constantly reading into PAR/PUR findings, reports, journals, etc and during my findings I remember reading about a literal billion dollar industry "gap" that is in the LED market for marine tanks called the "green gap" or something like that. I have read about this in a few university journals but couldn't bookmark the findings since they we're through a paid university website; however there was some talk of this from the founder/CEO of BuildMyLED Nick Klase during the 2014 MACNA presentations. If you're in the market for new lights and you're not sure whether to go LED/T5HO I would highly encourage you to watch the MACNA presentation from BuildMyLED. I attached the link below for you and all others..hope this helps !


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## WiseGuyPhil

For years I used Halides with VHOs. Personally I never had the same success as I did will halides with specific corals but I was able to achieve good results with LEDs vs T5s

For example, my switch to LEDs under AI Sols.



















Then the experiment. Which gives better growth and colour. You be the judge..

Left is LED, Right is T5.


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