# Using commercially prepared ferts



## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Alright... I have seen tons of documentation and information on using dry ferts or PMDD and the like. I cannot seem to find info on using the commercially produced ferts.

I live in a small apartment in the middle of a large city and getting and storing all of that is more than I want to deal with or can deal with. That being said I am currently using Seachems Flourish line of ferts and was wondering if there is anything out there on dosing such premade commercial ferts outside of the recomended dosage on the bottle as they can be and are wildly inaccurate as they do not take all parameters into consideration.

Please... I don't want to get any lectures on how I am wasting my money by purchasing such, nor do I really want to hear how I can buy small quantities of the dry ferts and mix them up... I don't want to have to buy a bag of stuff and have it sitting around here a year later.

Thank-you


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

I would get a 5g or 10g tank and fill it with tap water, add dechlor and let sit for a night. Then test for NO3 and PO4. Add 1 ml of flourish stir and retest. Keep adding 1 ml and retesting until you get to the desired levels. This way you can gauge what 1 ml will do to your tank levels.

The major problem with doing this is trying to keep the NO3O4 ratio in your planted tank constant.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

There is a reason why nobody bother to post any such information. It's because if you OD with a product that has a bit of every thing. You'll always end up with an excess of something. And it's this excess that causes algae growth and irregular growth spurs.
Every tank is different, no doubt, this is why you are asking this question. It's because you are begining to suspect that a one bottle solution doesn't really fit all. 
But that's the drawback you have to live with on a one bottle solution mixture. You just have to dose it at low dosage. This will still help promote plant growth. But you will never be in the same league as those that use the EI method (a modified version of the PPMD dosage). So far, that's the only method where an aquariust can grow they planted tank into an un-earthly healthy state.
Even the PPMD one bottle mix is no good. That's why alot of people are begining to separate the mix. Some people even dry dose the 5 ingredients straight into the tank.
Err... did I even confuse you more?

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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

What these people are saying is that you need test kits for the various plant nutrients,

and that, you should only dose said nutrients individually when a deficiency of said nutrient exists in your system, because using a 'mix' be it PMDD or a commercial mix, it is highly unlikely that your system will have depleted the same amount of all the nutrients every time you feed, therefore, you will always be dosing more iron or potassium or nitrogen than you actually NEED. That's why if you only dose the nutrients individually (read: pain in the anal fin) when you need to, you can avoid things like algae attacks.

Did that answer your question? No. But that's not what we're here for... apparently...


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

I am not using a one bottle fits all type of routine. My current dosing regimen is as follows:

Mon - Micro Fert 0.8mL/40L; Potassium 1.6mL/40L; Iron 1mL/40L; Excel 5mL/40L
Tues - Phosphorus 1.5mL/40L;Nitrogen 0.4mL/40L
Wed - Excel 1mL/40L
Thur - Micro Fert 0.8mL/40L; Potassium 1.6mL/40L
Fri - Phosphorus 1.5mL/40L;Nitrogen 0.4mL/40L; Excel 1mL/40L


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

I see what you mean now.

The only way that I see is by testing before and after adding the individual ferts to see how much it is increased. After awhile of becoming used to this you will only need to do the before testing.

Do you have pressurized CO2? If so, you can run your nitrates as high as 30ppm but will therefore need to increase your phosphates to about 10ppm and increase your CO2 above the 30ppm level.

I have put my tanks into overdrive like this several times if I was trying to quickly grow out plants to sell or trade. Problem is that things can get out of wack very quickly leading to algae issues.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

I just looked at Seachems website and their recommendations.

I know you said not to say this but WOW that has to cost a small fortune doing it that way.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Well thats the thing- and they expect you to shell out like $180 for freakin plant food  

Meanwhile all you need is like the first 3 months of 9th grade chemistry and you can go buy these things and mix them up yourself and have a reasonably comparable product for like 1/50th the cost of buying from seachem...


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

That is the thing... I do not have the time or the inclination to go about measuring and weighing and fixing up powders. I will pay to use the other stuff. I ask about it on other forums and I get the lecture about how I am wasting my money, just do it this way... etc. I don't want to deal with it. The industry has been taken over by the DIY people and they don't allow any view but their own out there.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

I understand where you are coming from. Heck I had 4 kg of KNO3 in the basement because I got a good deal on it. My wife got furious at me when I made the mistake of telling her that I could make a little bomb with it. Hade to get rid of it soon after! (sound of whip cracking!!!!!!)


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Careful she might not let you keep diet coke and mentos next.


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## Fish Dude (Oct 31, 2006)

KnaveTO said:


> That is the thing... I do not have the time or the inclination to go about measuring and weighing and fixing up powders. I will pay to use the other stuff. I ask about it on other forums and I get the lecture about how I am wasting my money, just do it this way... etc. I don't want to deal with it. The industry has been taken over by the DIY people and they don't allow any view but their own out there.


The thing I dont get is, what is the difference between measuring out 0.8mL/1.5mL/1.0mL of a liduid fert and measuring out 1/8tsp/1/16tsp of a dry fert?


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Because to prepare them and liquify them so that they are safer to put into tanks you need to utilize distilled water, measure out the correct dosage, mix, worry about it getting mold all the time, etc, etc,etc. Sorry... not going there... oh and did I mention the bags of stuff you got to store somwhere until you use it all up... which may be up to a year or two later... nope... not for me.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

I still understand why you want to do it your way but it is really not that big of a deal. When it comes time to fertilize I take the dry powder put it in a drinking cup and add aquarium water to it. Swirl it until it is dissolved and dump it in. Do this for each invidual fert.

Here is a pic of the dry ferts I use with a pack of cigs beside them. They are not large and it really isn't a big deal.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Careful about that pic.... you could get charged with the promotion of tobacco or whatever it is now listed as... lol

anyway... when I was looking into plants and ferts I had been given the impression that it was bags of the crap that would take up too much space and years to use up. I wasn't going there... knew I should have never listed to the yanks over there. However that being said I am honestly pretty happy witht he seachem system. PlusI know it is more expensive but I buy it at Menagerie and that helps keep them in business. Lastly I do not drive, live downtown Toronto and hate the transit system... so what I would save in buying the ferts I would loose on the cab fares to whereever would sell that stuff... by the way... seen a nursery downtown... didn't think so.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

You don't need a nursery. Homegrown hydroponics:

TORONTO
(416) 588-9595
at DuPont and Dufferin Street
165 Geary Ave.,
Toronto, ON
Canada

BTW each tub is about $3


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## lawgman (Jul 27, 2007)

jrs said:


> I still understand why you want to do it your way but it is really not that big of a deal. When it comes time to fertilize I take the dry powder put it in a drinking cup and add aquarium water to it. Swirl it until it is dissolved and dump it in. Do this for each invidual fert.
> 
> Here is a pic of the dry ferts I use with a pack of cigs beside them. They are not large and it really isn't a big deal.


Does this stuff ever go bad? I was away from serious plant keeping for a few years and still have some of these dry ferts in the same containers sitting in storage. Now that I have decided to plant a small 20 gallon, I was wondering if I can still use the stuff. Its probably in storage for about 5 years.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

These are not lab grade quality so unless they were cross contaiminated they should be fine. The only one I would have to think about would be the trace mix.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

KnaveTO said:


> I am not using a one bottle fits all type of routine. My current dosing regimen is as follows:
> 
> Mon - Micro Fert 0.8mL/40L; Potassium 1.6mL/40L; Iron 1mL/40L; Excel 5mL/40L
> Tues - Phosphorus 1.5mL/40L;Nitrogen 0.4mL/40L
> ...


Ah, I see. Now I understand what you are getting. I've never done something like this. But looking at your dosage regimen. It looks pretty good. The only thing that stands out is the Excel. It is after all, a one bottle fits all formulae. Seachem refuse to say what's in it. So it's impossible to say what you're adding into your tank.
If you're thinking about using excel in place of CO2, think again. Excel is a fert, it's not CO2 and will not magically create CO2 for your plants. At most, I would suspect that it contain small amounts of hydrogen peroxide in it. And this just gives you a temporary increase in carbon for a few hours at most.
Do you mind if I ask what is the wattage you're pumping into your tank and what kind of fixture?

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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

jrs said:


> These are not lab grade quality so unless they were cross contaiminated they should be fine. The only one I would have to think about would be the trace mix.


Yes I agree, the trace mix would probably go bad by now and the any iron in it are probably eaten away.

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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

CO2 currently is a 5lb cylinder with a Red Sea gauge and needle valve. Currently the tank is receiving about 40 bubbles of CO2 per minute. So the Excel is there for a boost and an assist in the algae issue only. As for lighting I have a coralife 4x65w Compact Flourescent Fixture with the bulbs rated at 6700k


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Wow, that's a setup to be envied.
Let me see if I can find the EI dosage regimen again ....
OK, the link moved, but here is the new one:
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
Tom Barr is one of the top planted tank aquarius in North America. What makes him stands out from the rest of the best is that he can explain it in good old plain simple english. It's much easier to read and digest his stuff. Not sure if you know him though. Did you once mentioned that you have a debacle with a certain online petstore. Well, Tom was at the center of it. He's one of those guys who fought back.
Anyway, basically, you're doing the same thing as the EI method. 
Translating your dosing:
PPMD ---------- Your bottle
Fe -------------- Iron 
KNO3 ---------- Potassium + Nitrogen
KH2PO4 ------- Potassium + Phosphorus

I am not sure what is in your Micro Fert and ofcourse as mentioned before, Excell. But basically, you aren't doing much different from what other people working with PPMD are doing.

Have a look over Tom's article, it might help ....

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## gblackma (Nov 29, 2006)

Looked at your pictures. Nice tanks.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

And those pics are old... had to rescape it a bit


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