# Do new tiny fish regularly die?



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

I am so new to fish so bear with me.

If I buy medium 10 neon tetras, which I think are terribly tiny, sub 0.5", should I expect that 6 of the 10 will die within a couple of days, irregardless of where I buy them? Is this a common occurence? I acclimate them in the bag to their new water for about 1 hr, bag open, net them out, then throw the LFS water out.

Do the supposed "large" neon tetras, sub 0.75", last longer?

Quarantine tank is cycled, water conditioned with Prime. My kids are thinking I'm the Grim Reaper of new fish.


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Have you tried Drip Acclimation? Get a piece of air line tubing, tie it in a knot (not too tightly) then suck the one end and adjust the knot to the required tightness to have about 1-3 drops/second. add the plastic bag to a bucket or pail, place the airline tubing in the bag and allow it to drip for an hour continually. 

This may help acclimating the species.

Another thing to consider is the species, Neon Tetras can be finicky, try with a hardier species like Zebra Danios.

What size tank do you have, and how long has it been set up for?


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I would say no, it's not.

I've bought cardinal tetras at that size, and didn't lose a single one.

However, be careful with acclimation. If it takes too long, the fish suffer from bad water condition. Too short, and the fish is not acclimated enough. I think aiming for 30 minutes is a good target.


----------



## SmokeSR (Jan 28, 2009)

No, it's not normal to lose 60%. I bought tiny cardinal tetras and lost 1 out of 20. 

When you say: " I acclimate them in the bag to their new water for about 1 hr, bag open, net them out, then throw the LFS water out."

How much of your tank water were you adding to the bag? At what rate? I'm not sure if you acclimated properly or if you simply matched water temperature by floating the bag. 

If you acclimate properly, there could be a chance that your qt water is not suitable or properly cycled. What cycling process was done and what do you keep in the qt tank?


----------



## greg (Apr 29, 2012)

Definitely not normal. If tank is properly cycled to handle the bio-load, losses should be minimal. Just finished quarantining 17 Endler fry with no losses. Now quarantining 15 chill rasbora fry with no losses and this is normal. Only fish i've ever lost during quarantine were guppies and that's because I had one killing the others, which took me a long time to discover. This success is not due to any particular skill on my part - just a cycled tank, regular vacuuming of waste followed by water changes and I do always add a lot of floating plants as well as some plastic stem-style plants to the quarantine tank to help the fish feel more secure.

You're on the right track asking questions.

Greg


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Maybe I'm not acclimating the fish properly. I don't actually add any tank water to the bag. This must be a mistake.

Quarantine tank, 5G that I set up and take down. I use a small Aqua-Tech 5-15G filter from Walmart stuffed with filter floss. The filter floss is usually stored in an Aquaclear 70 that has been filtering my turtle tank for about 3 months. Turtles are dirty so I thought that the QT would be immediately cycled. These neons are so tiny as is their bioload. When I tested for nitrates I got less than .25ppm, so I think I was safe. I will test for ammonia and nitrites as well. The rest of the neons look happy and the water looks good.

My neons were from BA Scarborough, at their last sale. I am wondering if I should be looking elsewhere for neons?


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

TorontoBoy said:


> Maybe I'm not acclimating the fish properly. I don't actually add any tank water to the bag. This must be a mistake.


There's your problem. You're setting up your fish for pH shock, and small fishes are especially vulnerable to that.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

check the ammonia and nitrites for sure


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm
Nitrates: 20 ppm



solarz said:


> There's your problem. You're setting up your fish for pH shock, and small fishes are especially vulnerable to that.


So adding water to the bag will prevent pH shock. I will correct that misstep when I go buy tetras again.

Thanks Guys!


----------



## SmokeSR (Jan 28, 2009)

Correct. Acclimating is the process where you're slowing adapting the new fish to their new water conditions. You do this by slowly adding your tank water into their fish store water. For hardy fish, you can do this by mixing in 25% new tank water into 75% fish store water every 10-30 minutes. Repeat until they're in mostly (75-95%) new tank water. You can do this in their bag but it's usually easier to do in a bucket or jugg. As was mentioned above, for sensitive fish, you can do the drip method, which slowly drips new tank water into their fish tank water. 

Good news is that if you have 4 surviving neons, they're likely the hardiest and healthiest of the bunch since they survived. Just hope they didn't sustain any damage from the shock.


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

I saw the OP mentioned BA's sale... Any time I've bought their sale fish, they're usually not in the best condition, some generally die even.

The reason for this (and I know because people who are ex-employees have told me) the sales fish usually arrive a day or 2 prior to the sale start. Usually that's all the quarantine time they're given, so sensitive fish are still madly stressed in their tanks and are being reshipped to another tank...


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Ryan.Wilton said:


> I saw the OP mentioned BA's sale... Any time I've bought their sale fish, they're usually not in the best condition, some generally die even.
> 
> The reason for this (and I know because people who are ex-employees have told me) the sales fish usually arrive a day or 2 prior to the sale start. Usually that's all the quarantine time they're given, so sensitive fish are still madly stressed in their tanks and are being reshipped to another tank...


When talking to the sales person he said that they usually run out really quickly but they just got a new shipment in, so there were fish to sell. This was near the end of the sale week, and I was surprised they even had fish left. I did not clue in that the fish would be so stressed from their recent move, much less that there had been near zero quarantine days.

Live and learn. Thanks Ryan!


----------



## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I would never swap a turtle filter into a fish tank. There are other poisonous chemical stuff than just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I don't think it's these three. It's probably something else. Also, there could be some really harmful bacteria and virus the turtle is immune to and nasty for the fish.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Zebrapl3co said:


> I would never swap a turtle filter into a fish tank. There are other poisonous chemical stuff than just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I don't think it's these three. It's probably something else. Also, there could be some really harmful bacteria and virus the turtle is immune to and nasty for the fish.


Turtles and fish live in the same habitats naturally. One's bioload won't kill the other species. A turtle filter to seed an aquarium is actually pretty common amongst those of use whom keep these pets. Much more bacteria in those filters... More poop and horrifying smells as well lol


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Zebrapl3co said:


> I would never swap a turtle filter into a fish tank. There are other poisonous chemical stuff than just ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I don't think it's these three. It's probably something else. Also, there could be some really harmful bacteria and virus the turtle is immune to and nasty for the fish.


I'm very new to this hobby, but I have asked Mr. Google and he said that it's Ok. Turtle diseases don't affect fish and vice versa. I've swapped filter material from the turtle tank to my QT tank a couple of times and had no problems so far. I get an instant cycle when I do.

My turtle is dirty and smelly and my filters and I work hard to keep her water clean. When I move biomedia to a fish tank I'm sure the biomedia is very much relieved. And any of my "learning experiences" become a nice meal for her. While she usually moves quite slowly she has a pitbull killer attitude when she sees a fish. She is a primitive dinosaur. It's like flicking on a light switch.


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Funny,

My 3 turts are the same way. In the water, calm as could be, if I so much as begin lifting them they turn into snapping turtles lol. and +1 to you for using the turt media... why wouldn't it make sense lol


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Update: One replacement from BA Scarborough now has fin rot, so I had to quarantine him from the quarantine tank. He has no tail anymore, but can still swim. One from Petsmart suddenly died last night. I've rushed out and got a replacement before my son finds out. I am trying this "drip acclimation" that you speak of.



Ryan.Wilton said:


> Have you tried Drip Acclimation? Get a piece of air line tubing, tie it in a knot (not too tightly) then suck the one end and adjust the knot to the required tightness to have about 1-3 drops/second. add the plastic bag to a bucket or pail, place the airline tubing in the bag and allow it to drip for an hour continually.


I almost spend more time on these itty bitty fish than my kids! Just who is in charge here?


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Just one of the many and varied joys of pet keeping, no matter what sort of pet it is. Though some are most surely more time consuming or labour intensive than others. 

The one good thing is that now the internet at least allows for more research to be done before jumping in the deep end with new pets. But it is not always easy to find out everything you really need to know ahead of time. 

If you have a choice, and can find them, try to buy fish that say they are either 'tank raised', or locally raised. There are not a lot of them but there are some. They tend to have better survival rates, because they have not been caught wild, which often involves the use of toxins to stun them first, then shipped across country or internationally. So they are much less stressed overall. Short of that, try not to buy any fish that have not been in the store tank for at least a week or two, by which time the weakest ones will have died off. If you ask how long they have been there, they usually will tell you, or you can simply pop into the store frequently before you plan to buy, and observe what fish have been there for awhile, and buy those, rather than brand new arrivals.


----------



## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Fishfur said:


> Just one of the many and varied joys of pet keeping, no matter what sort of pet it is. Though some are most surely more time consuming or labour intensive than others.
> 
> The one good thing is that now the internet at least allows for more research to be done before jumping in the deep end with new pets. But it is not always easy to find out everything you really need to know ahead of time.
> 
> If you have a choice, and can find them, try to buy fish that say they are either 'tank raised', or locally raised. There are not a lot of them but there are some. They tend to have better survival rates, because they have not been caught wild, which often involves the use of toxins to stun them first, then shipped across country or internationally. So they are much less stressed overall. Short of that, try not to buy any fish that have not been in the store tank for at least a week or two, by which time the weakest ones will have died off. If you ask how long they have been there, they usually will tell you, or you can simply pop into the store frequently before you plan to buy, and observe what fish have been there for awhile, and buy those, rather than brand new arrivals.


This only is for some fish. I read cardinals and neons that are wild caught are hardier than tank raised ones and acclimatize better..


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

That's interesting.. did the article you read say what methods are used to catch those species in the wild ? I know that some can be caught simply enough, either due to the type of habitat or the behavourial habits of the fish. Fish that school would be a lot easier to catch than those that don't, for example. Shallow streams can be closed off by nets and catch pretty much whatever comes that way. It's more difficult in large or deep bodies of water, or with species that tend not to gather in groups.

I have to admit, it bothers me that a number of fish are caught using various toxins, including cyanide. Like Otos, for example. The toxins are dispersed in the water to stun or paralyze the fish, so they can't escape, or so they'll float to the surface where they can be scooped up easily. In streams or lakes, it may take a large amount spread over a wide area to catch enough to make it pay for the fishermen. For some salt water fish, it's a targeted type of technique done by divers. 

Direct targeting by divers is risky, they squirt dissolved cyanide at the desired fish, but it disperses pretty fast once it leaves the container. The affected fish is grabbed and bagged or netted, but it puts anything else nearby at risk too, including the diver. If not for death, then for blindness or other side effects of long term exposure. But so long as the market exists, someone will be trying to make money supplying it.

Such methods aren't used for all species, of course, but where they are used the mortality rates can be high for fish and it's pretty hard on the catchers as well. They don't get paid much for the risks they take, and it doesn't take a lot of cyanide to kill a human if they are not careful, never mind the effects that dispersed toxins would have on other species living in the same waters.

Given a choice, I'd pretty much prefer to buy tank or farm raised animals, rather than wild caught. But there is also no denying that farmed fish do become inbred, which brings it's own set of problems at some point down the line. Tank raised fish can have the same issues, because for the most part, there is no real way to know what fish may be related in some degree to another fish of the same species.

In that respect, wild caught fish might well have a much healthier genetic makeup than any tank or farm raised fish, simply because the chance of them being inbred is so much less.


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Update: The BA Scarborough replacement neon that had fin rot has died. He will be going to the next dimension: my turtle's stomach.

The drip acclimation not only worked exceedingly well, but it was also very easy to do. Sucking fish tank water is not that bad. I certainly would not do this with turtle water. Thanks Ryan for suggestion. This will be my practice from now on.

I formally apologize to 4 dozen goldfish who were not properly acclimated, of which 13 are still of this world.



Fishfur said:


> ...If you have a choice, and can find them, try to buy fish that say they are either 'tank raised', or locally raised. There are not a lot of them but there are some. They tend to have better survival rates, because they have not been caught wild, which often involves the use of toxins to stun them first, then shipped across country or internationally. So they are much less stressed overall. Short of that, try not to buy any fish that have not been in the store tank for at least a week or two, by which time the weakest ones will have died off. If you ask how long they have been there, they usually will tell you, or you can simply pop into the store frequently before you plan to buy, and observe what fish have been there for awhile, and buy those, rather than brand new arrivals.


Thanks for these useful tips. They sound logical. I have started up the habit of chatting up the local fish store girls, so I sometimes know when their shipments arrive. For example, Petsmart at 401/Kennedy gets a shipment of neon tetras every Wednesday afternoon. I might pop in on Wednesday morn to pick up some tetras that have survived the week. Once the new shipment arrives they are dumped into the display tank. This is all the "quarantine" they get.

I wonder if the local Chinese stores (Kennedy/Steeles area) offer better quality, less stressed neon/cardinal tetras? Of course, Chinese rules: cash only, no returns.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Depends on the store, and the fish in question too. Though most stores don't have a return policy for livestock.. pretty much only the chains have such things and even BAs only gives you 5 days, which includes the day you buy them. 

There was a good point made about buying wild caught tetras, because the one thing you do get in farm raised or tank raised fish is inbreeding, which can cause all kinds of problems that are often not especially obvious. Deformities of the body can be seen, but immune system weaknesses or internal disorders are not going to show up except as mystery deaths. Not really any way to control inbreeding unless you keep every pair and all their young separated, which would be far too costly for fish farms. In the wild, the young that survive scatter, so are more likely to breed with non related fish, and thus widen the gene pool. Farmed fish have a much smaller gene pool to draw from, even if the farm tries to bring in fresh wild stock often. They're bred in such high numbers, in very small areas,compared to the wild, inbreeding is inevitable. I suspect many of the 'mystery ' deaths are due to inbreeding and the genetic weaknesses it promotes.

So there are the two choices. Either way, buying stock that's been there for at least a week or two should give you higher survival rates than buying newly arrived stock does. Some fish are hardier than others, some are very fragile, so it pays to research whatever you think you want before you buy any. 

Like Otos.. I love 'em. But if they haven't been in the store for at least a few weeks, I have learned not to buy, because they usually have quite high mortality rates, due to the way they are caught and the fact that they depend on gut bacteria to digest their algae based diets. Those bacteria die off in transit, so the fish often die too, even if stuffed with food.

Those that are still alive after a few weeks in the store have a much better shot at life. If they live two months in my tank, chances are very good they'll live a reasonably normal lifespan if I don't screw up the tank. This is not true of all fish but that's why research is so important. I have my own share of ill deeds done to fish, through ignorance, to apologize for, but I'm always trying to learn more about them and not make the same mistake twice. 

Best of luck.


----------



## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

Fishfur said:


> ...Either way, buying stock that's been there for at least a week or two should give you higher survival rates than buying newly arrived stock does. Some fish are hardier than others, some are very fragile, so it pays to research whatever you think you want before you buy any...
> 
> Those that are still alive after a few weeks in the store have a much better shot at life. If they live two months in my tank, chances are very good they'll live a reasonably normal lifespan if I don't screw up the tank. This is not true of all fish but that's why research is so important...


Thanks for the advice. I have been researching neon tetras and one site said that interbreeding has weakened the species so much that they are no longer recommended for beginners. What is a newby to do?

I will continue to research neon tetras. I will also research cardinal tetras, in the hopes that they are genetically stronger. I realize now that a BA sale on common and well sold fish is not the way to buy fish that will survive. I am new to fish so when going to the Chinese fish stores near me I feel very under-educated.

Do you use a quarantine tank and how long do you quarantine new fish?


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I try to keep a QT tank. Don't have one just now, because another tank cracked and leaked, so the QT tank is its replacement. I usually QT new fish for a few weeks. Otos are an exception. I don't QT them, I put them in the main tank, because I fear they may not be able to handle yet another change of habitat. But most fish, I QT for at least a couple of weeks. That is long enough to learn if they have Ick, or most other problems. 
QT tanks are also useful as hospitals, if a fish becomes ill.

It's true that some fish don't make great beginner fish, and inbreeding is one reason for that, and another is that some have very particular needs, either in conditions or for feeding. Another reason is that new keepers are likely to make mistakes and delicate fish are less likely to survive the mistakes, where something hardier might well survive.

You might consider fish that are just a bit less popular than the neon tetras, or larger than they are. I'd say Zebra danios, the Gold ones are quite attractive, but they're pretty inbred too. Despite that, they tend to be quite hardy. Not a real schooling fish, they like to chase each other, very fast swimmers, but peaceful. Kyathit Danio is another very pretty one.. the one with large black spots on a gold body, NOT the striped variant, which is much plainer. 

Beckford's Pencil fish are another one I very much like. Bigger than Neons, yes, but males have bright red fins, dark upper body, females paler body, no red fins, both have a horizontal stripe. Easy to sex, unlike tetras. Need a well planted tank. Males do a neat dominance dance now and then, very flashy performance where the red fins and belly spot just glow, but they don't fight or harm each other. Or some of the small Danios.. like Glowlight or Orange Hatchet Danios. Though they are orange, not red/blue, neither gets very big, quite flashy under lights. And one more, that is very small, would be the Celestial Pearl Danio, aka Galaxy Rasbora, which actually now has yet another name, which I forget just now. Not as colourful as neons, but quite small. Males dark blue with pale dots and red fins.. females pale bluish, paler spots, not much fin colour. Becoming very popular but have not been available for that many years, so not inbred as yet. Like Pencilfish, males can be agressive toward other males, so a planted tank that breaks up sight lines is needed. Don't usually harm each other unless conditions are poor, so far as I know. None of mine fight. 

Endlers are quite small, the males very brightly, multi coloured, but the girls are very dull, plain Janes. Like guppies, females are bigger than males. Livebearers also. Can be crossed with guppies, and then you get a bit bigger fish with assorted colour patterns. Pure Endlers do come in an assortment of colour patterns, some more common than others, but all have multiple patches of bright, bright colours on the body. Have not been in the hobby for a long time, so not extremely inbred.

If you don't mind a bigger fish, many livebearers are fairly hardy, often very colourful and generally easy to keep. Swords, Platies, Guppies. Guppies are quite prolific and the males are very colourful, and nowadays even the females have colour in the tail fins. Platies come in oranges, yellows, with black, blues, not as big as swords, bigger than a guppy. Inbreeding can be problem with all of them as all have been around practically forever, so to speak. Look for nicely formed active individuals, avoid any with visible deformities or that look very slender for the length. This is also true of the Zebra Danios.. males often look quite weedy or have a bent spine, avoid those. But of those I've had, the only ones I ever had trouble with is the Leopard Danio. I had 3 of them get dropsy, which is incurable. The one I have left, I adopted from another member and so far, he's very healthy. But I won't buy any more Leopards and am now mostly interested in micro species of fish myself. Once the larger Danios live out their lives I won't replace them with the same fish.

All you can do is research, ask questions, and hope for the best. We have all lost fish, and none of us like it, but it's part of the hobby, sadly.


----------

