# Fall Leaves for Shrimps



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I've read that oak leaves, among locally available leaves, are the most commonly used for CRS. Where in GTA can I go to find pesticide-free oak leaves?

Has anyone used other kinds of leaves? How do you prepare them? Do you just pop them into the tank, or do you dry them and soak them first?


----------



## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

You can go on trails where there are oak trees. Don't pick any that are on the ground. Only pick the dark dried out ones off the higher branches....most of the oaks are already drying out, so you can safely take a grocery bag and go picking!

I pick mine on the lakeshore trail by my marina...Ive seen many of the trees with full branches of dark brown dried out ones already.

You just leave them in the bag and feed one at a time in your tank. The shrimps will slowly pick away at any biofilm on the leaves and finally the leaf will disintegrate in you tank...no need to take it out.

As they don't spray for pesticides now, most of the forest/trail oaks are the safest ones to pick the leaves from.

My babies are eating happily from one in my breeder box and growing good off the nice yucky munchy stuff they find on the leaf.


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks! I'm gonna do that tomorrow! From what I remember, High Park should have a bounty of leaves!


----------



## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Make sure you give them a good shake before putting them in the bag, they could have insects on them and you don't want those crawlies in your house!

I brought home some alder cones I picked off the trees last year....good thing I put them outside for a day or so...went to look at them and there were 100s of little spiders living in them.....

I put the bag outside now for a day or so before bringing anything inside.


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Yikes! That's good to know! Looks like I won't be going to High Park today with the weather as it is.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I have plenty of clean, dry oak leaves taken from trees far from roads, that had not actually fallen off the tree yet, so they never touched the ground. Happy to sell.. I should put another ad up.


----------



## Splak (May 1, 2013)

What is the purpose of adding oak leaves other than food? Can I leave them in the tank for a year as a substrate?


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

You can use them as leaf litter, and leave them 'til they begin to disintegrate if you want to.


----------



## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Splak said:


> What is the purpose of adding oak leaves other than food? Can I leave them in the tank for a year as a substrate?


In some of the creeks where the wild form of our shrimps are found, it's shallow water with rocky bottom, and tons of fallen leaves that create both hiding places and food source for the wild shrimps. Other than the leaves, I really don't know what else gives them organic source in there. So, I believe having them in our tanks should be beneficial.

That's where I spent a lot of hours as a kid, catching those wild shrimps and fish. I didn't think I would have them in my tanks a few (okay, a lot) years later.

I'm not sure about using only these leaves as substrate though, different stages of the decaying process can leave different stuff, your water parameters may not be very consistent.


----------



## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think it'll work as a substrate either, it'll stink like hell if you put too much in the tank. Most public parks in Toronto don't use pesticides, so it's safe to pick them. Stay off the commercial property oaks as they can contract their gardenning out and they are allow to use pesticide in this case. Forest oaks are the best. Oak next to heavy traffics, stay away from those, they are probably conbustible ... ok ... they are not but you get the idea.
The last 3 years was bad oak heavesting because it rain not stop during the perfect harvest period. There was a very short period last year. We aren't in the harvest period yet. You have to wait until they are fully brown, I don't pick green ones as that means there still have chlorophyls in it. Once they are brown, they will be perfect for picking. Now if only it would stop raining. I don't pick wet leaves, you can't keep them for long. And when it rains alot, the leaves tend to rot even when they are still on the tree. This sucks as it's no good for the fish tank. The perfect time is for the leaves to turn brown and we have 2 or 3 days of sun with no rain. Then it's the perfect heavest time. With good dry oak leaves, you can store it for 2 or 3 years. That's why I don't want to wet ones witch only last a very sort period of time.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Shrimp Daddy (Mar 30, 2013)

Golf courses are not good places to pick them.


----------



## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Shrimp Daddy said:


> Golf courses are not good places to pick them.


Totally agree, or adjacent forests. You don't want to add those "free" chemicals to your shrimp tanks.


----------



## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

May I ask is there a specific reason why a dead brown leaf should be collected and not green (perhaps dry out later under the sun or in an oven)?

Thank you in advance!


----------



## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

I think it's because green leaves means it can decay further in storage, so it's not stable. And when decaying in a bag, it can cause bad bacteria growth. It's better to get those "active" organic element out of the leaves so they stay stable when stored.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Deciduous trees store energy to survive over the winter by withdrawing the sap and the nutrients it contains from their leaves before they drop them. 

This is part of why leaves change colours the way they do before they fall off the trees. The chlorophyll that's normally used for photosynthesis breaks down once the sugars and other nutrients made in the leaf tissues to nourish the tree are withdrawn into the trunk and root system for storage. 

Then other colour pigments that were always there but were masked by the green chlorophyll can show up, giving us the reds, oranges and yellows of fall leaves. 

Green leaves can cause the same issues as green wood can, where some of the resins in the sap itself may be toxic. Most recommendations I've read seem to agree that you should age any new green wood you want to use in a tank outside for at least a year. Weathering & exposure to the elements, along with bacteria and other organisms, combine to break down sap and resins in green wood, so it ceases to be a problem for us in our tanks. It makes sense that the same applies to the green leaves, it's the same sap after all. But the tree kindly does most of the work for us, by taking the sap out to store.

So if you collect them after they've lost their green and changed to their fall colour, or fallen off the tree, then the sap is gone and there's no chance of any issue from it. I don't think they actually have to have turned brown, but they do have to have lost all traces of green and if they have fallen off the tree after changing colours, you can be sure they've lost their sap. 

One exception would be oak trees. For a reason I have not yet learned, many oak species tend to hold onto their leaves for a long time after they lose their colour. In many cases they remain on the tree until the new leaves of spring actually push them off the branches. So you can often find brown oak leaves still firmly clinging to their tree.


----------



## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Fishfur said:


> Deciduous trees store energy to survive over the winter by withdrawing the sap and the nutrients it contains from their leaves before they drop them.


Thanks for the interesting insights Fishfur! I stuck mostly with Physics and Chemistry in HS.

Solarz, I hope I am not steering the following comments away from your topic, but I hope my questions help everyone with a better understanding of why we do what we do. Just let me know and I'll move my questions to another post.

The impression I am getting from everyone's comment is that the leaves effectively provide a surface area for the biofilm to form, and a protective cover to which the shrimps can hide in.

Oak leaves decay the slowest, compare to fruit tree leaves, and spinach respectively.

Biofilm will develop on any surface, but can it be said that decaying of the leaves provides nutrients for the microfauna on the leaves' surface therefore a more and better biofilm is formed?

If that's the case, would not leaves from a fruit tree leaves be a better choice than leaves from a hardwood tree?

Furthermore, a dead brown leaf will contain mostly carbon (extending this from composting process). So would this have the added benefit of less nitrate leaches from the leaves affecting water quality?

The reason I asking these question is because I wonder if an artificial structure with lots of surface area can be used to provide abundance biofilm material for the shrimps.

I am not sure if anyone have or care about these tougher questions, but I trying to understand the underlying basic.


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

LTPGuy said:


> Thanks for the interesting insights Fishfur! I stuck mostly with Physics and Chemistry in HS.
> 
> Solarz, I hope I am not steering the following comments away from your topic, but I hope my questions help everyone with a better understanding of why we do what we do. Just let me know and I'll move my questions to another post.
> 
> ...


You're right that oak leaves decay very slow. Their benefit, as I understand it, is that they both provide tannin and act as a source of food for the shrimp.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Dead leaves do quite a bit more than grow the same old biofilm other surfaces grow, so an artificial surface wouldn't give the same results.

What they do is provide a substrate that promotes the growth of bacterial infusoria and then nourishes that growth until the decay process is complete, at which point all that is left is the carbon skeleton of the leaf. If you have dead leaves in a shrimp tank, they provide very good grazing for the shrimp, as well as releasing an assortment of beneficial tannic and humic acids.

I think part of the problem with fruit tree leaves is that they are often afflicted with a variety of fungal infections and I don't think I'd want those fungi and any potential products of the fungi in my tank. I'd never want leaves from an orchard or any tree grown for the fruit to be eaten, because such trees are usually sprayed with tons of pesticides. 

But if you could get clean fruit tree leaves, I'm not all that sure they'd break down so much faster. I think it would pretty species dependent. Many fruit trees are also hard woods, like maple, beech and oaks are. Apple & cherry especially are quite hard woods, and I think pear, plum also. Peach I'm not sure about. 

I would avoid nut trees, because some nut tree species are known to produce some alkaloids that can be quite toxic. Walnuts are infamous for this, not that they really grow here all that widely. Chestnut trees, I think, though I'd have to check, may also produce some toxins. Just something on the tip of my brain so to speak, I'd have to look it up to be sure.

I was definitely into botany and biology in HS.. math, physics & chem all bored me to death. I wish now I'd paid a lot more attention, seeing as water chemistry is not the simplest of topics to grasp. sigh.. but I'm still learning !


----------



## fatkinglet (May 8, 2010)

Hi, I just started a cherry shrimp tank. I am interested in collecting local safe leaves for my shrimps. I live Queen/Dufferin (close to High Park)


I am dummy to this topic, anyone could guide me where I could locate a oak tree?


thanks


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

fatkinglet said:


> Hi, I just started a cherry shrimp tank. I am interested in collecting local safe leaves for my shrimps. I live Queen/Dufferin (close to High Park)
> 
> I am dummy to this topic, anyone could guide me where I could locate a oak tree?
> 
> thanks


Hey, you live in a good place for collecting leaves! There are lots of oak trees right at the entrance of high park. Just google oak leaf images, and you'll be able to identify them with no problem.

You might have trouble collecting leaves at this time. Maybe you can ask around and see if anyone had stocked up. I have a small store myself, but I live in Oakville. 

I only really had one problem with oak leaves in my shrimp tank: it was boring!

You see, oak leaves take up substrate real estate, real estate that could have been used by plants. Eventually, plants took over the tank and there was no space left for leaves.

If I had to redo things, I would use either floaters like hornwort and frogbit, or plants that don't take up as much space on the substrate.


----------



## fishyfishy (Apr 21, 2011)

Sorry for going a bit off topic, but if oak leafs are good for the shrimp and tank in general what about the acorns?


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

fishyfishy said:


> Sorry for going a bit off topic, but if oak leafs are good for the shrimp and tank in general what about the acorns?


No, acorns have too much nutrients in them and will foul up the water.


----------



## fishyfishy (Apr 21, 2011)

solarz said:


> No, acorns have too much nutrients in them and will foul up the water.


Ah I see... I didn't think that something that small would pack such a big punch.

Sent from my SM-T113 using Tapatalk


----------



## EdC (Mar 5, 2009)

Fatkinglet check out canadiantreetours.org for where to find particular trees. Apparently Trinity Bellwoods, which is also in your part of town, has grey alders. I wonder if a trip to collect alder cones might be worthwhile.


----------

