# Seeking info on Endler breeding



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Can anyone tell me if the average brood of Endler fry is likely to have any given percentage of males to females ? Or is every brood completely different ?

How long does it take before male fry begin to show their colours ?

Does anyone know how the sex of the fry is determined ? Is it parental, like it is in mammals, or temperature dependent, as it is for crocodilians, or are there other factors that affect the sex of the fry ?

Is there a maximum number of broods that can result from a single mating by a female with one male ? If so, what's the maximum ?

I haven't much experience with live bearers. Most of it was when I was younger and it was up to the fish, I wasn't trying to breed them on purpose. But I'd like to do something with the Endlers, so any and all specifics would be appreciated.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I don't know endlers but some general rules for livebearers is 1 male for 3 females. Some breed 3 times for one mating. Generally to breed livebearers, just have males and females and they do all the rest, before you know it, you have over 100 guppies like me.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, I know that much about live bearers . I kept Swords, Platies and Mollies when I was a kid, and naturally, they produced broods periodically. Some of the babies were quite pretty, but not many survived too long in a community tank with a pair of huge Angel fish. 

But the questions I asked are because what initially attracted me to the Endlers, I'm sure this is no surprise, was the male's colouring and size.

Having now had several broods, and not seen any males develop as yet, I'm curious about specifics with these fish. What I'd like to have is a small group of males, and keep just enough females so they are too harassed, and so the males don't get too frustrated. I'd sell the excess fish.

But so far, not seeing any males, really. If they are supposed to have a basic ration of 3/1 female to male, I should have seen SOME males by now, but so far they all look to be girls. Hope somebody knows more about them.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Fishfur said:


> But so far, not seeing any males, really. If they are supposed to have a basic ration of 3/1 female to male, I should have seen SOME males by now, but so far they all look to be girls. Hope somebody knows more about them.


What is the temperature of your tank? Both mating and fry tank (if separate). There is a theory that temp affects sex of livebearers. I have never tested this out. My broods are roughly 60% females 40% males, and a few males develop late, as in, they don't distinctively appear to be males until about 8 weeks old. My main tank (mating / brood dropping) is at about 24C, and my fry tank has one of those tetra set heaters at 78F, which translates to about 25.5C.

I have heard that lower temps produce more females, but again, I have never tested this out, so don't know if it is a myth or fact.

Al.


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## greg (Apr 29, 2012)

I picked up 17 pure strain black bar Endler fry 2 weeks ago. Just this week I'm seeing some small dabs of colour on 3-4 of them. They are developing at varying rates so its too early to tell whether or not I will get more males.

The breeder was keeping them in a fish room with no in-tank heaters. Temperature in the fish room the day I was there was 72 degrees. I have read that temperature affects the male/female ratio but would classify the information I've seen as anecdotal.

I will keep you posted on the male/female ratio as things progress.

Here's a link for a U.S. online Endler seller who has information about the male/female ratios and fry development rates.
http://care.endlers1.com/

Greg


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I keep all the Endlers in one tank. At the moment, there's nowhere to put a fry grow out tank, though I'd like one. But the space is going to be taken by a brackish tank for growing out shrimp larvae. Later this year, might be able to fit in some tanks for breeding more fish.

As for the Endler's tank temperatures, over this winter they've been, well, a bit erratic. The heat in here this winter was extreme. One of the 30Gs got up to 90 F one day. That was the day I realized I had to run fans in the winter too.. a winter day with temps above freezing, sun all day, got brutally hot in here. 

It's partly thanks to not having thermostats, partly my Southwest exposure that provides a lot of solar gain on sunny days, and also that our balconies were not accessible all winter due to repairs. Could not even open the door to relieve the heat, it was secured from the outside. I only just got balcony access back last week. Having windows open did not help a whole lot.

So once the fans were up, I've been adjusting them as needed, which is often a real PITA. Tanks were a bit too warm when most of the broods were incubating. Now temps are cooler, but no new broods have been born since the temps dropped to where they are now, around 70 - 72. Not a lot of help, huh ?

Now, I was very kindly given a pair of males to replace the single male I started with, when he mysteriously vanished. They are pretty little guys, but do not look like the male I lost. They're colourful, but not as intensely so as the lost one. I'll have to search to see if I got any pic of him before he disappeared. Based on memory and pics of various strains online, I think he may have been a Black. He certainly had very dense, bright colours.. a lot of contrast. So I'd kind of like to get some Black Endlers and see how they do.

Thanks for that link Greg, I'll check it out. I still have a vision of a nice little group of bright Endler males darting among the plants.. perhaps I will simply have to try and be patient. I CAN be very patient, but it's not a skill I was born with .


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Fishfur said:


> perhaps I will simply have to try and be patient. I CAN be very patient, but it's not a skill I was born with .


LOL...One of the first (only?) things I learned in this hobby is, it forces you to be patient. I was cycling my first two tanks simultaneously (fishless), and, while one tank cycled within' a couple of weeks, the other took six to eight weeks! A lesson in patience learned the hard way LOL.

Good luck with your endler endeavor.

Al.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah temp does. You got the right info it seems like. I kept/ bred endlers a bit years and years ago. At that time information wasn't widely available on them yet, and I was not aware of the exact temp requirements for the optimal male/female ratio. So I ended up getting a lot of females as I recall. Different experiments I did with temp wasn't successful. I eventually got out of it. Breeding fishes is out of my system now.  Enjoy the experience.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I've been breeding them for 7 years, and still am.
It isn't really so much that temp is the thing. It's actually how stressful is the ecosystem. Temp is only one factor. Dirty water and such is another. The prescense of predator is another. Black water. I never really care all that much as 1) I don't breed them forsale. 2) they tend to balance themselves accordingly as long as I keep the water clean.
But a stressful system should provide slightly more males, but you're toying around with something you shouldn't be doing. The rewards are seldom as favourable as you'd hope. 3 or 4 more males per batch isn't worth stressing the entire system.
You'll also need some kind of safe haven for the fry to hide. The females might not eat their own right away, but they do compete with each others by eating other females fry.
Males have dildo (othodole?!) and females don't.
They don't work like betta does. You need to work with a large population if you want to refine a certain traits. Once you found a trait you like, you need to match several bothers (3 or 4) with around 10 females. From there, you need pick out the best 3 or 4 and match with another 10 sisters. You keep doing that until they breed relatively true. But a word of wisdom, you need to watch out for genetic defect. They may breed true, but with a high chance of genetic defects as well.

Good luck.

Edit: Oh and that's 10 virgin females. Not easy to get, as you'll soon find out.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

yeah I kept them in endlers only tank, and did everything I knew about them then, testing water regularly, changing water regularly. I had 5-8 tanks going in a fish room back then, with a show tank in living room. I was keeping discus at that time too, in 100 gallon and 40 or 55 gallons ( can't recall exact sizes). So I was meticulous about water. I don't know what it was then. It might have been light. I didn't use the best lighting I had on the endlers for obvious reasons. 

Yeah virgins are hard to get. Boy you wish I still kept endlers don't you coz I had lots of virgin females back then lol.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Anyone else read that article fully? Apparently Endlers can breed in a full marine set-up!? I'm so trying this when I get home, worst case I lose a pair of my like 80 endlers lol.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

The bit about brackish water was interesting,for sure. Though I doubt you'd get them going in full marine unless you spent a fair bit of time acclimating them first.
Also quite interesting where it says they can go on producing broods for up to a year from one mating! Yikes.. only way you'd get virgin females would be to separate all the fry, singly, before they reach breeding age. Even with dividers and such, you'd need a lot of tanks to do that. And I expect the reason I don't see a lot of the babies grow up is due to predation by other females.
But there are not only Endlers in the tank.. what I meant was, all the Endlers I have are in one tank but they share it with a few other fish, which are two species of Pencil fish and CPDs, and just recently a few Glow light Danios. They have lots of wood, rocks and plants to hide in too.

The Danios are destined for a tank of their own, and I hope the Pencil fish will have one of their own by summer's end. The CPDs are too small to eat fry, but the Beckford's probably eat them. I don't think the Equus Pencilfish bother with them, they barely move and seem to have little interest in live prey. They don't get excited about live worms, for example. The Danios are likely big enough to eat newborn fry, but I hope won't be in there for long.

I may just have to adjust my expectations and hope to keep a few Endlers and be content with what I get. Of the two males I do have, though they don't look like the original one I started with, the one is really extremely handsome. The other is pretty, but does not stand out so much as his competitor does.

Thanks for the links and the info on grouping and stress, etc. Fish breeding in general is new to me, other than the sort that simply happens when you aren't looking, and I am always happy to learn more about the creatures that I so enjoy looking at.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

I have just a pair of endlers (MF) in a small 1/2gallon aquarium. They love it lol, explore the whole thing just like it says, once they breed they babies go back into the 29gallon Vivarium, from where the parents came


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