# Red Cherry Shrimp swimming erratically



## Darkblade48

I have a 2.5g planted nano RCS tank (journal is here http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9918 )

It has been set up since August of 2009, with many rescapes during the time.

I noticed a male RCS swimming erratically today (i.e. swimming upside down, etc). When it landed on a surface (say a blade of Dwarf Hairgrass or on the driftwood), its legs would keep moving.

Needless to say, I did a 50% water change (with Prime, of course), thinking it may have been some toxin, but the other RCS seem fine.. Anyone know what might be the problem?

Water conditions:
Temperature 76F
NH3: 0
NO2: 0
NO3 and PO4, I assume are similar to EI maximum levels (don't have the test kits here with me)
CO2 is < 30 ppm (according to drop checker with 4 dkH reference solution)


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## Darkblade48

Here are some images of it:



As you can see, when it is resting, it appears upside down as well; is this signs of its impending death? 

Also, while sucking up excess uneaten food (using a turkey baster), I was able to isolate the RCS in question as well (normally, healthy RCS avoid the turkey baster and would never get sucked up, but...)

Here is another picture of it in isolation



Finally, a movie of it. You can see that it appears lifeless at first, but a few taps of the container make it swim around frantically again. It then just stops and sinks lifelessly to the bottom before I tap the container again.






Edit: It looks like a lot of food in the container, but it's just some pellets that have turned to mush


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## kaegunim

@[email protected] Aiya - tradgedy strikes!

I would look to the composition of your trace fertilizer. CSM+B has enough Cu in it to be a problem for shrimps as per this article http://www.planetinverts.com/Dosing%20Fertilizers%20with%20Shrimp.html... The author also cut back his KNO3 dosing to prevent nitrate poisoning (which is news to me...)

Looking slightly further, a real article http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W89-4VPV5GP-1&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1208216972&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=02fee1e69384ab14e1acf6e8a11483dc indicates that the magic number for Cu is just 0.04ppm!

Let me know what this hydroponics special trace is made of pls~

At any rate, shrimp get rid of heavy metals in molting... if the little guy molts he might perk up? I don't know that I would get my hopes up too much though... I have never seen a shrimp lying on it's side like that...

As an alternative diagnostic, are your berried females still carrying their eggs? If it is environmental, the eggs should be the first to die (and the female will drop them) making the eggs a sort of coal-canary... If the berried females are still ok, this guy might just be an old timer whose time has come.


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## Darkblade48

kaegunim said:


> I would look to the composition of your trace fertilizer. CSM+B has enough Cu in it to be a problem for shrimps as per this article ... The author also cut back his KNO3 dosing to prevent nitrate poisoning (which is news to me...)


The thing is, I haven't been dosing for the last 3 days because I was in Toronto, remember? 

Also, NO3 can be toxic to both fish and shrimp; it's just that they are "less" toxic than NH3 and NO2. Also, NO3 poisoning shouldn't be a concern, as I haven't dosed for 3 days as well...



kaegunim said:


> Let me know what this hydroponics special trace is made of pls~


Unfortunately, I don't have the composition sheet with me in London.

Edit: I stand corrected. While the copper seems high (0.1%), we are diluting it into some volume of water, and then proceeding to dilute that further by dosing into the aquarium.

EDTA Chelated Micronutrients

* Iron 5%
* Manganese 2%
* Zinc 0.4%
* Copper 0.1%

DTPA Chelated Micronutrients

* Iron 2%

Non-chelated Micronutrients

* Boron 1.3%
* Molybdenum 0.06%

Chelate

* EDTA (minimum) (ethylene diamine tetra-acetate) 42%
* DTPA 9minimum) (diethylene triamine pentaacetate) 13%

For comparison, CSM+B has similar levels of copper:

CSM+B Plantex
CSM+B Plantex 1 lb, a micro nutrient trace mix, with boron added.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Total magnesium - water soluble chelated magnesium 1.5%

Copper - chelated 0.1%

Iron - chelated 7.0%

Manganese - chelated 2.0%

Molybdenum 0.06%

Zinc - chelated 0.40%

EDTA - minimum content 55%



kaegunim said:


> At any rate, shrimp get rid of heavy metals in molting... if the little guy molts he might perk up? I don't know that I would get my hopes up too much though... I have never seen a shrimp lying on it's side like that...
> 
> As an alternative diagnostic, are your berried females still carrying their eggs? If it is environmental, the eggs should be the first to die (and the female will drop them) making the eggs a sort of coal-canary... If the berried females are still ok, this guy might just be an old timer whose time has come.


All my berried females are still carrying eggs. Another user on another forums suggested that it might just be the case that this particular shrimp has kicked the bucket.


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## ameekplec.

I was going to also suggest that this shrimp is kicking the proverbial bucket. In a span of a few weeks, I too had a few cases of shrimp just going haywire on me or just finding corpses in the morning - and I couldn't figure it out either as none of the other hundreds of shrimp were symptomatic of anything else besides the regular shrimpy quirkyness.

Then the simplest explanation became evident - all were larger adults probably pushing 18 - 20 months in age, very close to the reported upper age limits of Neocaridina sp.

If it's of any consolation, it's probably had a good life in your care


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## Darkblade48

ameekplec. said:


> Then the simplest explanation became evident - all were larger adults probably pushing 18 - 20 months in age, very close to the reported upper age limits of Neocaridina sp.
> 
> If it's of any consolation, it's probably had a good life in your care


I don't know how long they were alive for before my care; I've only had them about a month

Then again, RCS seem to grow quite fast; in the month that I've kept them, the smallest male has almost doubled in size


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## Darkblade48

Gack. It's dead


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## Zebrapl3co

Yeah, when they are lying on the side like that, it's pretty ominous. I'd would always blame the copper from the pipe. Do you run your water for a while before you do your water change? Check for other oxidating metalic stuff in your tank. Lead would be another problem. Most notably, lead leeched from cheap plastic.

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## Darkblade48

I would have blamed copper toxicity as well (someone over at Planted Tank also suggested something similar); however, all the other shrimp are doing fine, so...


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## BettaBeats

I've never seen a RCS die, sometime I would find a corpse in the morning but nothing about them swimming upside down. 
My suggestion would be to maintain the temperature, check for females with saddles, and grab a few males w/out saddles and let the tank be. This was the easiest way I found mine to breed. Then - FREE shrimps


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## Darkblade48

That is pretty much what I did.

Did you take a look at my journal here?

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9918&page=6

Pictures of baby shrimp


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