# Switching from Flourish to Dry Traces



## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

For the last year + I've been using Seachem Flourish for trace and its run out.

I've picked up traces from Homegrown Hydroponics and I'm trying to sort out how to pre-mix a trace solution so I can keep treating with the same 5ml cap full I've been using.

Maybe I've overlooked it but I can't seem to find how to determine the water vs. traces ratio to mix. For example, using the APC Fertilator, can I just use Iron as the watch point and mix traces to match the dose I am (was) using.

If someone can help with a sanity check please:
 Each 5ml of Seachem Flourish added .07 ppm Fe.

I calculate a CSM+B mix of 200 ml water, 10g of trace, dosed at 5.19ml = .07 ppm Fe.
Am I on base or in left field?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I would double check to make sure that the iron content of the Homegrown Hydroponics is the same as CSM+B. I think one big difference was the copper content...you may have some trouble with shrimp (if you keep them), but I have never kept shrimp, so I cannot comment on this. I believe other users have used this trace mix with shrimp, so they can comment on this more.

I am not sure what size your tank is, so I assume 5 mL added to your tank volume results in an increase in iron levels of 0.07 ppm. From the Fertilator, I am estimating your tank size to be ~60g.

If we assume the iron in CSM+B is the same as the trace mix from Homegrown Hydroponics, then we can figure out how much we need to reach the desired concentration of iron. It works out to be about 9.6g of the trace mix dissolved into 200 mL of water. 5mL of this, dosed into a 60g tank, will raise your iron levels by 0.07 ppm.

If you are using the EI dosing method, Tom Barr recommends:

+/- 1/8 tsp Trace Elements 3x a week. 

This raises your iron by 0.15 ppm when dosed into a 60g tank. If you wanted to dose at this concentration (in liquid form), then you would dissolve 1/8 teaspoon into 5 mL of water. For a 200 mL batch, you would mix in 5 teaspoons. 

I hope my math is right


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

DB, I was hoping you'd hear my call for help...

Yes, EI...and oh yeah...my tank size. That would be good info eh? It's a 75G, so the water volume is about 64G by my calculations...(volume - estimated volume of gravel, wood etc). 60G is a nice round number to work with though and helps prevent overdosing. The tank is CO2 injected, very heavily planted, especially near trimming time...with consumption and the fact the tank is more like 64G factored in, I'd be undershooting, but only by a bit...I thought.

The stuff from Homegrown, which is +B indicates Cu of 0.10%.

CSM (no +B), depending on where you read is .08 or .09...PlantProd themselves indicate .08 in the MSDS. or 0.10% on the label. Iron is the same at 7% on the label, but the MSDS says 58%...? Go figure. The CSM and Homegrown labels read identical.

I understand the addition of 1.3% Boron would bring the % of Cu down too a wee bit. So, although I'm no chemist I don't think +/- .01-.02% is a big issue. I also understood chelated copper (metals in general) are not nearly as toxic.

In terms of the mix...I better hold off mixing until we're done here...I have different numbers...less than 1/2 of yours...and I used Fertilator too. 

60G volume, Iron in CSM+B, 9.8g into a 200ml solution with a desired .07ppm = 4.97 ml of solution/dose. So I'd add .21ppm / week not accounting for consumption.

Am I missing something?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Mr Fishies said:


> So, although I'm no chemist I don't think +/- .01-.02% is a big issue. I also understood chelated copper (metals in general) are not nearly as toxic.


Long story short, the difference is likely negligible. Your understanding of chelated heavy metals is also correct.



Mr Fishies said:


> In terms of the mix...I better hold off mixing until we're done here...I have different numbers...less than 1/2 of yours...and I used Fertilator too.


I arrived at 9.6g with the Fertilator, while you arrived at 9.8g; not much of a difference.

The other measurement I arrived at (5 teaspoons) is using Tom Barr's recommended EI dosing. He recommends 1/8 of a teaspoon for a 40-60g tank. If you wanted to continue to use a 5 mL cap, then you would dissolve the 1/8 teaspoon into 5 mL of water. A 200 mL bottle would mean you would have (200/5) = 40 doses total. As each dose is 1/8 teaspoon, you would need (40 * 1/8) = 5 teaspoons of "CSM+B"

Note that this adds quite a bit more iron to your water.

Of course, there is no harm in using the mixture you calculated (i.e. adding 0.21 ppm of iron per week), but with a heavily planted tank, you may find that your plants will start to lack iron, etc. You could then start to "experiment" by (say) doubling your current dosage (up to 10 mL) etc.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> I arrived at 9.6g with the Fertilator, while you arrived at 9.8g; not much of a difference.
> 
> The other measurement I arrived at (5 teaspoons) is using Tom Barr's recommended EI dosing. He recommends 1/8 of a teaspoon for a 40-60g tank.


That was where I got confused. I was thinking, incorrectly, that my proposed mix (with 10g) was "per EI standard"...so when you suggested 5tsp (21.5g) that's where I was thrown off and started to wonder.

I had in my head that EI recipes only add the total maximum safe amount of an element every week (NO3 added weekly = ~21 ppm). But now that I've had this brain fart, I checked and that's only the case with KNO3. Fe and PO4, since it's used up rather quickly so the "max" amount is added each dose (I assume).

Add all this to the fact I was basing my mixes on a lean dose for a 40-60G which I am at the top end of and I think I just figured out why my tank can be so sensitive to missed doses...I've been giving it just enough to keep it happy until a few days with no additions.

I'm glad I brought this up...you've indirectly enlightened me in a few questions I didn't even ask!


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Mr Fishies said:


> Fe and PO4, since it's used up rather quickly so the "max" amount is added each dose (I assume).


I believe this is correct; I haven't looked over the EI dosing reading in a long time.



Mr Fishies said:


> Add all this to the fact I was basing my mixes on a lean dose for a 40-60G which I am at the top end of and I think I just figured out why my tank can be so sensitive to missed doses...I've been giving it just enough to keep it happy until a few days with no additions.


I believe the recommendations for dosage that Tom gives are based on total tank volume as well, not just water volume. From his website:

60 - 80 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 3/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1 tsp once a week (water change only)
+/- ¼ tsp (15ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change

It says that you should be dosing double what I mentioned! That would mean 10 teaspoons of CSM+B into 200 mL!

Actually, that does seem about right. I used to make batches of 500 mL of 3 teaspoons of "CSM+B" (the trace from Homegrown Hydroponics; I have called it CSM+B for simplicity's sake). For my 90g, I would be dosing ~40 mL.

Let's work through the math:

If we assume that 10 teaspoons of CSM+B = 43g, then 1 teaspoon is 4.3 grams.

I use 3 teaspoons in 500 mL, or 12.9 grams in 500 mL
Thus, in each mL, I am "dosing" (12.9/500) = 0.0258 grams of CSM+B
As I dose 40 mL, I am actually adding (0.0129 * 40) = 1.032 grams of CSM+B

Compare with Tom Barr's recommendations of 1/4 teaspoon. You want to keep your dosage constant at 5 mL. Your total volume is 200 mL. This means you will have (200/5 * 1/4 teaspoon) = 10 teaspoons of CSM+B in 200 mL. This means you have 43 grams of CSM+B in 200 mL of water.

Thus, in each mL, you will dose (43/200) = 0.215 grams of CSM+B
As you are keeping your dosage constant (5 mL), then per dose, you will be adding (0.215 * 5) = 1.075 grams of CSM+B.

Not too bad, the agreement is only off by 0.043 grams.

For 1.075 grams of CSM+B added to your 75g tank (I am using total volume now), the iron concentration would increase by 0.25 ppm. Of course, this might be a bit high, but you can always tweak.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

*Which tank volume?*

So you think Tom's EI specs (or any documented regime for that matter) are intended to dose to the "label" volume of a tank, or the real effective volume of a tank? There can be a big difference, especially in larger tanks with thicker glass.

My tank, a Perfecto 75G is not nearly 75G of water. The external dimensions, trim included in height are 48x18x21. But...

Since the bottom is raised and sitting on the trim, and I don't fill the tank to the very top lip, the effective height is more like 18.5 inches (maybe 19).

The length and width, both loose (5/16 x 2) to glass thickness, leaving me with a tank that internal volume/specs like:

47.375 x 17.375 x 18.5 = 15228 cubic inches or about 65.9 Gallons.

Subtract 5-6 bags of Eco (easily enough to fill a 5G bucket), a few chunks of mopani from that and I'm pretty sure I'm down to something closer to 60G of water.

That's a 15 gallon difference between label and reality.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

As far as I've been dosing, I've always followed the "label" volume of the aquarium.

To reiterate, the EI dosing method is really *estimative*, so whether you are plus/minus doesn't really matter; what matters is that the plants get their nutrients


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> As far as I've been dosing, I've always followed the "label" volume of the aquarium.
> 
> To reiterate, the EI dosing method is really *estimative*, so whether you are plus/minus doesn't really matter; what matters is that the plants get their nutrients


Pretty much what I just read...I posted this question over on Barr Report and I was reminded by a few folks, Tom included, the 50% WC will clear off extra nutrients. I don't know why I can't seem to remember that!


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Yea, the idea is that you are providing more than what your plants need, and then resetting your nutrient balance every week or so with a large water change. A small +/- isn't going to hurt anything using EI - as long as you know the iron you are providing now is in the same form (chelated?) as before - otherwise you might be doing a bit of an overdose!


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

I really dont like the EI dosing, but it does work, but hard on some of your inverts. My amano shrimps always go crazy everytime I dose, and one time it killed the group. Im pretty sure my measurements are on. I would also do the dosing when the tank in nicely cycled, the last thing you need is green water/bac bloom.

After a yr of using it, I just starting to bottle each individually and just pump what I needed. 

If i saw more hair alage, I would use more nitrate/potas
if I saw more glass algae (that hard shit on ur glass, not the furry one =p) , i would pump more phophate/potas

and of course every other day trace

also remember, your tanks needs change as the tank develop or when you trim, so dont forget to change your doses accordingly. 

I am also now a big fan of substrate ferts (I use these pellets from allzoo that I got from lucky) which worked great for the last setup until i left the country for 2 months. The more growth of plants(via root feeding) and less shit in your water column, the less algae. Obviously you still need a bit in the water column for certain plants, but majority of those are not fast growing anyways.

I am also a big believer that co2 comes first, make sure thats in gear, ur kh/ph is in gear before dosing.

hope that helped a bit. 

word


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