# An old Newb starting a tank with blue rams and cardinals



## davec (Jan 19, 2010)

Any advice re: starting a tank for german rams, cardinals and rummy nose tetras.

Thinking about a 30 or 40 gallon tank. Adding ++ plants, driftwood to help keep pH on low side. Cycling with maybe 2 zebra danios and a small pleco for about 1 month. Then adding about 6-8 cardinals, wait a week add 6 rummy nose, wait a week add 2 german rams wait a week and add a cory.

What do you think? Too many fish? Too small a tank?

Also re HOB filters any way of protecting small tetras from getting sucked/stuck onto the intake?

Will tank raised rams and tetras tolerate mississauga water or do you guys recommend trying to soften the water and lower the pH? And how hard is it to raise rams? Do even most experienced aquarists lose them very easily? 


I just tried and failed miserably. Too small a tank (10 gallon I bought the kids for christmas) and too many fish. I cycled for 2 weeks with plants and 2 zebras and a pleco. The three are still alive but the pair of rams and cardinals have expired.


If I can ask one more question. Any point in using a (HOB) filter except for mechanical removal of particles and water agititation?. Some aquarists from what I have read don't seem to like charcoal since it can remove trace minerals beneficial to plants. Furthermore if the tank has cycled why do you need an ammonia remover and filter media for bacteria if you have ammonia and nitrite converting bacteria in the substrate of a cycled and appropriate sized tank for the fish? 

Thx so much


Dave C

and old newb

first post


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## NuclearTech (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi davec,

I can only give you my opinion and what has worked for me. 

As for the HOB's, I currently use 2 Aqua Clears on my 20 gallon (I just like the current and the idea that I always have a extra laying around). I take out everything from the basket of the filter and fill the basket with just sponges. When I do a water change, I squeeze the sponges from one of the filters into the bucket containing the old water. Easy. I like it. I don't use carbon or whatever else they send with the filters except for the sponge. I've kept this tank running like this for 2 years so far, and that included a move across town. 

I have never had a problem with anything getting sucked up the intake. Sorry, maybe another member can help you on that one. 

As for the recent deaths, rams and cardinals seem to be more sensitive to water parameters. While I can't speak for the pleco, I have experience with Danios and I know them to be very hardy fish, and I'm glad they are still swimming for you. I've successfully kept both cardinals and Bolivian rams in Toronto tap water and I can't imagine that Mississauga is much different. It's possible that the tank just wasn't fully cycled. I'd wait a good while before adding them to a tank. You really do want to check your levels with a test kit. It will save you in the long run. 

As for overstocking, many are guilty. If you want to keep that many fish, it's a good excuse to get a bigger tank  

Good luck and try again.


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## davec (Jan 19, 2010)

*thx for the input*

Do you keep the filters running 24/7?

If you do doesn't it interfere with the fish trying to rest at night?

I've read you're supposed to keep them running otherwise toxins will accumulate in the filter compartments from I assume lack of free/flowing water/o2 thus when you start it up again the fish get a blast of toxins.

Thx

Dave C


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

a "tank" is never cycled, what is cycled is the filter for that tank. The filter needs to be on 24/7. Removing it is the equivalent of putting a puppy in a small room with no windows and doors and just a tiny hole for ventilation.

no the filter would not disturb the fish, think of it as just water flowing in a steam or lake. 

Depending on what pleco you have, it might get too big for that tank. But the other stuff sounds good. 

lastly, for water chemistry, dont bother with trying to change it. Properly acclimated fish would not have problems in the normal city water. Once you try to mess with the pH and stuff of the water, you are opening a whole new jar of worms.


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## davec (Jan 19, 2010)

Thx Hitch for your input

Re: only the filter is cycled. This doesn't make total sense to me. The 'good' bacteria doesn't discriminate between substrate and the filter I assume it grows everywhere therefore the nitrification ( I'm assuming that is the term) cycle occurs everywhere. I assume that giving the bacteria access to constant flow of water will aid in speeding up the process but the process happens throughout the tank. Furthermore wouldn't the use of an airstone and aeration itself agitate the water to help bacteria 'find' new sources of ammonia and nitrates? Lastly aren't some of the nitrifying bacteria free floating in the water anyway?

No trying to cause trouble but trying to understand this process. The fact that one of my cardinals got plastered onto the intake of the HOB also makes me question how essential the filter is. (the suctiion is quite strong even for the 10 gallon model of the HOB. Would imagine an HOB for a 30/40 gallon tank would have that much more suction power.

Thx

Dave C


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

There are bacteria everywhere in the tank. But the ratio of bacteria in filter to bacteria in tank itself (unless you have a SW tank, and I am speaking for most FW tanks) is about 100:1. So leaving the filter not running for a while to lead to huge increases in ammonia and nitrite.

as for fish stuck to HOB intake, unless the filter has unbelievable amount of suction power, fish have enough strength to swim away from the suction. But if a fish was sick or dieing, then I wont be surprised if they got stuck. Though there are the occasional accident....


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## DaFishMan (Dec 19, 2006)

I use a piece of filter sponge (even an old one but 'cleaned') cut a square to the size just wider then the end piece of the intake, and a half inch longer. 
Cut an X into the sponge, don't go thru the bottom. Slip that over your intake. Clean the sponge every week or 2. It also allows extra time between filter cleanings as no gunk gets into it. This will also calm the flow. It's great to keep baby fish/shrimp/snails/plant gunk in the tank, and out of the filter. Some will eventually find there way in.

In Aquaclear hobs I also run 2 sponges, whenever I start a new tank I'll use one of those sponges in the new filter, pretty much an instant cycle. 

Charcoal packs are ok to use on tank startup, after a couple weeks they are no longer absorbing anything, and are another place for bacteria to thrive.
I'll sometimes use char packs (make my own) for a day if I notice any odor I don't like, then pull it back out.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

From a fish perspective, I have a 75G with ~25 Cardinals in it. I have a bit of an issue sometimes getting food to my Bolivian Rams since Cardinals are such quick, efficient little predators...err, eaters. Rummys are even faster and hungrier in my experience. Don't let it scare you off, both are really nice looking fish, you just may need to spend time finding a way to ensure everybody gets their share.

Tried a few things, usually for staple feedings I feed sinking pellets for the Rams and flake food at the same time to try distract the tetras with flake allowing pellets to sink but I often have fat tetras with a belly full of flake and pellet  and disappointed looking Rams looking like they showed up late to the buffet.


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## davec (Jan 19, 2010)

*this is a great forum thx for the help*

Continuing on the theme of filters

Would you guys recommend something like a penguin biowheel that gives a lot of O2 exposure to help the bacteria oxidize ammonia and nitirites?

I know Rams and Tetras don't like hard water but would you add non iodized salt in a Ram/tetra aquarium to help prevent ich? (Some believe Ich is ubiquitous and I guess even with a Q tank I wonder if some fish from the LFS my harbour a subclinical case that does not manifest until much later)

Thx

Dave C


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## DaFishMan (Dec 19, 2006)

In my 40g I switched from an ac300 (300gph) plus an ac 150, to a Penguin 330 dual biowheel that I had kicking around. My goal was more water movement. Flow-wise the 30gph did not make much of the difference, the body being twice as large with 2 outputs made the difference, totally killing the AC. Now add 2 biowheels and that I can still add my own media in the baskets or by altering the charcoal cartridges. I sliced an ac sponge from an established tank in half, then each half got put into a basket, instant cycle. One filter is now doing the job 2 did before, and then some..

The penguin mini worked good in a smaller tank, for it to work well don't put a sponge piece over the intake (as you might in a plant tank)


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

The amount of filtration you need depends on your bioload. A lightly stocked tank doesn't need much filtration if it's planted -- mostly just enough to circulate the water and mechanically collect debris. Growing plants compete with filter bacteria for ammonia and nitrites and use them rather than release them as nitrate, as well as providing a lot of surface area for desirable bacteria. Of course, you should do regular partial water changes, too.

Charcoal isn't very useful in a filter unless you're trying to remove drugs or tannins from the water. Its capacity is rapidly used up in days or weeks, and there's no way to regenerate it at home.

People often have trouble with rams because a lot of them come from farms in SE Asia where they are grown with a lot of antibiotics. When there are no antibiotics they are susceptible to everything that comes past. Rams tend to be somewhat delicate and prefer higher temperatures than most aquarium fish. There are people breeding and raising them in Toronto water, and locally bred fish are usually healthy and adaptable, if only because they haven't been through the whole distribution chain and exposed to all kinds of diseases as well as the stress.


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## NuclearTech (Mar 23, 2008)

Mr Fishies said:


> Tried a few things, usually for staple feedings I feed sinking pellets for the Rams and flake food at the same time to try distract the tetras with flake allowing pellets to sink but I often have fat tetras with a belly full of flake and pellet  and disappointed looking Rams looking like they showed up late to the buffet.


I do exactly the same thing, and you're right, the way the rams look is priceless


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