# New 45G long build, couple quick questions...



## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Hey everyone,

Been a while since I've posted but here's what happenin in my water world.

I'm building a 45 long, its actually all set up now (minus the lights).

So far it has a Rena Filstar XP3 canister filter, a 250W heater, a full 2 inches of medium gravel (natural brown color mix) and a glass top.

Here's what Im wondering: The tank was a turtle tank last year and the gravel was used for that purpose as well. When I tore down the tank i scrubbed the tank down with vinegar and rinsed it like a thousand times. The gravel I soaked in vinegar for a few days then added HOT water to it and continued doing that for a few days rinsing off all the vinegar. So its all cleaned and well rinsed.

I filled the tank with tap water and treated it with PRIME (seachem) and I also took a 5G bucket from my already established 20G (while doing its reg water change) and added that to the mix to seed it.

I'm wondering how long it needs to run before I can transfer a few fish into it from my 20? I'm under the impression that because I seeded it with water from my 20 (running like 2 years almost) that it speeds up the process..

I wanna transfer my two red honey Gouramis as they look like they want some more space.. As well as their favored Hornwort bushes.

All help and tips welcome.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

so common sense tells me to leave it for a while and let it settle, then check the levels and make sure everything is safe before adding any type of livestock. 

I'd still really love to hear from people though.

Any suggestions on a 48" light? are T5 HO's overkill?


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Well this seems to be a conversation of one  , but what the hell, here goes.

So I replaced the filter pad in my bio wheel (from the existing 20g) and I took the old filter pad from my bio wheel and put it into one of the baskets in my canister.

Is this sufficient seeding?

PH 7, nitrite 0, ammonia 0, nitrate 0...

is she good to go?

brandon


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Been a while since I've posted but here's what happenin in my water world.
> 
> ...


seeding with water is like seeding with air- there's jack schitt in it 

You need to seed with a VERY LARGE amount of gravel, or a smaller amount of filter media. The idea that there's a lot of bacteria in the water column is a very old idea born of misunderstanding of water chemistry. It ain't true.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> Well this seems to be a conversation of one  , but what the hell, here goes.
> 
> So I replaced the filter pad in my bio wheel (from the existing 20g) and I took the old filter pad from my bio wheel and put it into one of the baskets in my canister.
> 
> ...


i would say it is not because those pads are small. However, if you combine that with a large amount of gravel you should be good to go. make sure to start with only a painfully small fish population and test daily

Also--- Honey gouramis are fragile in this sense. they wont die right away if put through a cycle, but you've basically painted the scarlett letter of death on them and they wont last terribly long thereafter.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

lol,

I think we both posted at the same time..

So as stated above i threw in the filter pad, what do you think?

How long do I leave it in the canister?

Brandon.

(thanks Pablo)


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Id say 30 days. I strongly suggest adding gravel. A large amount of gravel (not so much as to impede flow) mixed into the EHFI (the upper layer) in the eheim would work quite well.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

TY Pablo,

I love those Gouramis to bits so I wont be death chamber-ing them anytime soon! 

I've got some pristella tetras, Phantom Tetras, german rams, a BN, and a couple of Amano shrimps....

Would any of those be better off in there?

(let me simply state that i'm posting here to learn, if i seem ignorant understand i'm trying to rectify that by asking questions first  )


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> TY Pablo,
> 
> I love those Gouramis to bits so I wont be death chamber-ing them anytime soon!
> 
> ...


Well if its bigger than whatcha got now of course its always smart to move a fish to a larger house.

They ALL come from more than 50 gal in the wild 

Just make sure you never move anything to an uncycled tank or the wrong kind of tank.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Well mission accomplished (water everywhere lol)

I took a a full netful of gravel from the 20 and placed it into the top chamber of the canister.

Seeding completed as prescribed.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

good stuff keep testing and keep us posted


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Ok so I'm also currently building up a 90G reef tank (i seem to suffer from MTS  ). Its still in the works and has pretty much everything except an RO/DI and to be drilled and plumbed to the sump/refugium (and LR of course). So I'm borrowing my lights from that build to provide lights for this tank as they're both 48". I must say they look very good up there too..

Until I pick up some lights for this tank from some classifieds somewhere.

Gonna zip out and pick up the girlfriend then come back and test the water.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> Ok so I'm also currently building up a 90G reef tank (i seem to suffer from MTS  ). Its still in the works and has pretty much everything except an RO/DI and to be drilled and plumbed to the sump/refugium (and LR of course). So I'm borrowing my lights from that build to provide lights for this tank as they're both 48". I must say they look very good up there too..
> 
> Until I pick up some lights for this tank from some classifieds somewhere.
> 
> Gonna zip out and pick up the girlfriend then come back and test the water.


KENT makes good R/O just so ya kno


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks Pablo, I'll check out the Kent line for sure.

So I left the tank to do its thing all night long and in the morning placed some Hornwort in there, if it could whistle and sing I'm pretty sure it would be, with all that light on it  

I tested the water about an hour later and all was perfect xept nitrites which if I could guess (only shows 0 and .25 ppm) I'd say it was .05 ppm based on its hue. Everything else was bang on, PH 7, amm 0, Nitrate 0, temp 79 C.

I used a cap of Prime and waited a little while tested again and NItrites are at 0.

SO what do you think guys?

Out of that list of fish I mentioned which ones are ok to put in the tank at this point? If any.

Brandon.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> Thanks Pablo, I'll check out the Kent line for sure.
> 
> So I left the tank to do its thing all night long and in the morning placed some Hornwort in there, if it could whistle and sing I'm pretty sure it would be, with all that light on it
> 
> ...


Dude its obviously still cycling. All you did was lock up the nitrite with the prime, which wasn't very smart because now it'll be harder for your biofilter to use it and finish cycling


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Alright then.

Patience grasshopper.

"Only bad things happen _quickly_ in aquariums"...

I'll wait a while and let it do its thing.

and stop fiddlin with it.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> "Only bad things happen _quickly_ in aquariums"...


Truer words were never spoken


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

All levels perfectomundo  

PH 7, Nitrites 0 ppm, Nitrates 0 ppm, Ammonia 0 ppm, Temp 80. (I guess because of the T5's blasting down on it.. lowered heater temp to 78.)

I think she's a go.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> All levels perfectomundo
> 
> PH 7, Nitrites 0 ppm, Nitrates 0 ppm, Ammonia 0 ppm, Temp 80. (I guess because of the T5's blasting down on it.. lowered heater temp to 78.)
> 
> I think she's a go.


You don't have any nitrate yet. When you have nitrate the cycle is complete.

Remember most nitrate tests need to be super shaken, left to develop, etc... read instrucktshins carefully.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Well sir, you are correct.

I was testing it wrong. I needed to add a couple more steps, like shaking the tube after dropping #1 bottle in, and shaking bottle #2 vigorously for 30 seconds before adding the drops, as well as waiting at least 5 minutes for color to develop. (I'm using API master kit) 

After retesting I'd say its almost at 5 ppm. (maybe 4) 

I retested my established 20G as well and its looking like a solid 8 ppm.

yep... 

How many ppm am I aiming for do you think?

The leaflet says 40 or less.. big range.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Ok so I got my girlfriend to look at it and she said the new tank looked like a 1 or a 2 and the old tank was more like a 5 or a 6... She said all that before I told her what the results meant, so's I could get an unbiased reading.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

ANY nitrate means you're cycled. go get fisH 

That test is tricky. you have to shake the whole tube when youre done too THEN wait five minutes.

The idea with nitrates is to try to keep them low with water changes. 

Their existance and the absence of ammonia/nitrite means you're cycled. 

Try to do enough water changes to keep your nitrate below 20ppm


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

cool.

Ya, I do a min 25% water change every 3-4 weeks in my 20.. Its got a few fish in there and i sometimes over feed them.. as hard as i try not to there's always some on the gravel. 

I'll do the same with this one of course (the water changing) (lol, probably the feeding too, who am I trying to kid)

Thanks for all your help.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

XbrandonX said:


> cool.
> 
> Ya, I do a min 25% water change every 3-4 weeks in my 20.. Its got a few fish in there and i sometimes over feed them.. as hard as i try not to there's always some on the gravel.
> 
> ...


Thats no good. You need to do water changes once a week atleast. Seriously. There are rare exceptions where more is ok, but generally, its very important for stability that you do it once a week.


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## Shattered (Feb 13, 2008)

I read thru your posts twice, and I'm wondering something; When you were cycling what source of ammonia did you use to start and establish the cycle?


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

I can increase the water change frequency no problem.

I didn't add any type of ammonia, I just added gravel from my old tank to the canister.

Should I have added some sort of ammonia? Why?

If so what type of ammonia should I add and where would I get it? LFS?


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

dont worry now just put some fish in there


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

How about some photos?!


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

The fish will provide some ammonia.

The idea is that when you start to see nitrates, the bacteria exists to turn ammonia to nitrites, then nitrites to nitrates. I believe this is what Pablo was saying.

I usually add nitrogen to my tank to help speed up the cycling process, along with using a cycled filter and old filter media, etc.

Add fish slow, and the hornwort will help make any ammonia or nitrate spikes less harmful.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Stewart said:


> The fish will provide some ammonia.
> 
> The idea is that when you start to see nitrates, the bacteria exists to turn ammonia to nitrites, then nitrites to nitrates. I believe this is what Pablo was saying.
> 
> ...


Nitrogen as what?

4 forms exist in aquaria


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Actually, I can't tell you!

The fertilizer I use does not list what exactly it is, but my assumption is that if it helps the plants grow, it will provide some yummies for the bacteria as well.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Cool,

Thanks everyone.

I'll post some pics when its lookin good...

Maybe I'll post a build thread on my 90G reef tank too when its time.

Till then I'll go back to lurking


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Hey guys,

Here's some shots..

I bought a bunch of plants off of a friend who works at a LFS in Brampton. I gave him $20 and he brought me all these and 6 amano shrimp  

Anyways I like them all.. I like that I can stick the fern or whatever it is to the log and it should grow there, I didn't tie it on I just kinda shoved it into the hole in the wood.

Still no fish, don't trust the cycle yet. May as well wait till I'm positive there's nitrates... I think I'll get some Koi Swords next saturday and put them in there. I like them and think some orange will go well.

Tell me what you think of my first time ever planted tank and my first time ever aquascaping job.. my gf totally helped me arrange it.


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Looking good Pat


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

the anubias and java fern really need to be tied down to wood / rock.

If not you absolutely must not bury the rhizome.

Just bury the little shoots, not the main body of the plant. It cant really live otherwise.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Pablo said:


> The anubias and java fern really need to be tied down to wood / rock.
> 
> If not you absolutely must not bury the rhizome.
> 
> Just bury the little shoots, not the main body of the plant. It cant really live otherwise.


Hey thanks Pat 

Thanks Pablo,

So the entire right hand side of the tank is mostly comprised of Java Fern, no? All of that will need to be buried a bit differently leaving the Rhizome exposed?

The Anubias is the one a little to the right and to the front of the wood right?

Pardon my ignorance, wha'ts the one ON the wood then?


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Windelov. Its just a different man made version of java fern. I think its HIGHLY counterproductive to not tie it all down to wood though. It grows happier.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

I have some more wood in the 20 Gallon that I'm going to transfer once this 45 cycles a bit more. The wood in the 20 is pretty big but its the home to my BN so I don't want to separate them just yet. Once I do that I can tie a whole shite load of them to it and improve the whole situation.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Nice looking tank XbrandonX.

My only comment/question is about the heater in the corner; is it going to get enough water circulation?

Cheers.


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## XbrandonX (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks 

Ya there's no problem with circulation in that tank. The Blue pipe coming down beside the heater is the intake pipe for the Rena XP3 Canister and on the left is the return spraybar. I'm not sure the exact gph turn over for the XP3 but its got great circulation. So much so that I have the bar turned into the wall of the aquarium to reduce flow a bit.. When I get more plants in there I migt put in a small power head in the corner somewhere.. (maybe with a CO2 feeding into it )

I have the thermometer on the other side of the tank and its all good. (80)

heres an updated pic but theres another thread about this tank too in the planted tank journal section.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

The reason I asked is because I too have a Rena XP3 with a similar setup as you (but in a 60 high/tall) but I put my heater in the centre rather than by the intake tube. I was concerned about circulation (the bottom right corner is a little dead) so I have an air hose. Of course, the wife doesn't like the heater in the middle but, meh.

As for turning the the bar into the wall, yes it will decrease the circulation but that also decreases the amount of oxygen transfer to the water as well. Try turning it forward facing up at a roughly 45 degree angle so that it is spraying towards the surface creating a lot of turbulence. That will increase the oxygenation.

I just put an Eheim 2113 Classic into my 20 gallon long and the spray bar is above the water spraying down at a roughly 45 degree angle. I must say that although it drenches the bottom of the hood the amount of oxygen that gets into the water is phenomenal. I'm thinking of rigging up my 60 the same way.

Cheers.


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