# Setting a German Blue Ram Tank (help, thanks)



## carbonlist

Currently, I have a 30 gallon standard stocked with some mbuna. I've decided on selling the mbuna to fund a german blue ram/apistogramma tank. I basically chose german blue rams because they're on the cheaper side with nice colours. 

Equipment that I have:
AC 50 filter
heater
lights
air stone/pump
black slag as gravel (is this a problem?)
r/o system (drinking water system with pH of 5.8)
tap water (pH of 7.6)

I need some help cycling the tank, some suggestions for plants, how many GBRs I should get. 

Should I get 6 and then put a divider between GBRs that have paired up? 
Should I get a better filter?
What plants? or no plants?
Should I change the black slag?
how much tap water should I use?
Is a 10% change enough?

Sorry for the newbie questions. I have done research, hence the questions are relative, but I would like a second or third, or even fourth opinion. 

Thanks,

Carb


----------



## Tropicana

Very cool, I think German blue rams are pretty awesome. Rams can tolerate a wide range of ph 6.5-8 So it should be easy to stay in that range.

As for how many in a 30 gal, I would get 2 males 4 females let them pair, and remove the loners then divide the other pairs. I have a 180 gallon tank and i had a pair on each side. and they fought quite a bit with that much room but never bad enough that either would get ill or die. 

Rams LOVE plants, and i would recommend trying to get floating plants if your light is very bright. Not sure on the black slag substrate, I have never used it before. AS for plants I have Anubias, small amazon swords, Vallisnaria, Stargrass, and other easy to keep plants.

I currently use 100% tapwater. Which i also breed rams in so it would be fine just dont swing the PH around if you use RO. Keep temps around 82+/- a couple. (I keep mine at 82-84). 

And for filtration as you can see i use an large Sponge filter. And That is my 20 gal.


Ill toss a pic of my setup so you can see how I keep mine.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> Currently, I have a 30 gallon standard stocked with some mbuna. I've decided on selling the mbuna to fund a german blue ram/apistogramma tank. I basically chose german blue rams because they're on the cheaper side with nice colours.
> 
> Equipment that I have:
> AC 50 filter
> heater
> lights
> air stone/pump
> black slag as gravel (is this a problem?)
> r/o system (drinking water system with pH of 5.8)
> tap water (pH of 7.6)
> 
> I need some help cycling the tank, some suggestions for plants, how many GBRs I should get.
> 
> Should I get 6 and then put a divider between GBRs that have paired up?
> Should I get a better filter?
> What plants? or no plants?
> Should I change the black slag?
> how much tap water should I use?
> Is a 10% change enough?
> 
> Sorry for the newbie questions. I have done research, hence the questions are relative, but I would like a second or third, or even fourth opinion.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Carb


AC50 is grossly inadequate. AC70 just gets the job done.

My personal suggestion for Aquaclear given an average bioload:

10 gal> AC 50

20 gal> AC 70

30 gal> AC 70 + AC 50 or AC 70 X2

40 gal> AC 70x2

50 gal> AC 110x2

Over 50> Get a canister

If you want to start screwing with water, you HAVE to learn about kH. It's the most important factor. Basically, R/O has a kH of zero. Tap has a kH of about 7. If you mix 50/50 you'll have a kH of 3.5

Read about how pH and kH (carbonate hardness or 'alkalinity' <assanine terminology IMO) interact and what effect having a low kH versus a high kH has on your pH's ability to move and swing. The very basic explanation is that water with a higher kH will resist pH changes more than water with a lower kH but it's better to read up on it a bit.


----------



## carbonlist

hehe...thanks tropicana and aquariam. That was really helpful. And there I was measuring and calculating pH by titration...I don't have a pH kit or kH or gH kit. I make my own test solutions in my lab/basement.  

I'll keep a blog with how it goes.

I just need someone to help answer the black slag question. I heard it's full of iron, 72% to be exact.


----------



## Big Jim

My suggestion lots of plants and a few caves


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> hehe...thanks tropicana and aquariam. That was really helpful. And there I was measuring and calculating pH by titration...I don't have a pH kit or kH or gH kit. I make my own test solutions in my lab/basement.
> 
> I'll keep a blog with how it goes.
> 
> I just need someone to help answer the black slag question. I heard it's full of iron, 72% to be exact.


Menagerie keeps more fragile fish than Blue Rams on it. Sounds safe to me


----------



## carbonlist

My german blue rams have arrived!!! I'm loving GTAA in comparison to this ad:

<http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-accessories-finch-tank-set-up-helper-W0QQAdIdZ209245358>


----------



## Chris S

heh, that guy sounds like a real pro


----------



## montelovers

You say your GBRs arrived... where did you get them?


----------



## carbonlist

My uncle imports WC GBRs. I was planning on buying them from lfs but he ended up coming this week so I asked him instead. The colours aren't that great though(probably because of long travelling)...pictures coming up.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

I thought the "blue" rams were all color morphs from captive breeding.

W


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> My german blue rams have arrived!!! I'm loving GTAA in comparison to this ad:
> 
> <http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-accessories-finch-tank-set-up-helper-W0QQAdIdZ209245358>


$60 to service a 30 gallon is like selling a new car for $4000. It's an exceptional deal.


----------



## AquariAM

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I thought the "blue" rams were all color morphs from captive breeding.
> 
> W


The German morph has punchier red and blue but overall is vastly inferior, visually, in my opinion, to the wild morph, which tends to have more of an orange wash to it.

The 'common' name of the fish has gone from Ram, to German Blue Ram (mistakenly), to Blue Ram. Since all M. ramirezi have a significant level of blue vs, say, Bolivian Rams, which aren't even really Mikrogeophagus and due for reclassification, it is a reasonable title for the fish.

The upshot of calling all ramirezi 'blue' is that it eliminates possible confusion with Bolivians. My hope is that the alternate name of "Crown Ruby Cichlid" will take hold and replace Bolivian/Butterfly Ram. Though the fish is currently in Mikrogephagus, this makes absolutely no sense morphologically, and moving the fish to, for example, Biotodoma, with the cupido, which is a strikingly similar fish, would make sense to me.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

omg all cichlids are too nice. I am going to set up a HUGE Lake Malawi tank after I graduate from university.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> omg all cichlids are too nice. I am going to set up a HUGE Lake Malawi tank after I graduate from university.


IMO you can't beat Malawi for the 100-250G FW range.


----------



## carbonlist

I absolutely agree with Aquariam. You have 150 gallons of fun, colourful, interactive, and crazy fish. Did I forget to mention they're only 50cents each for F1? If I had the tank space I'd go for a larger mbuna tank. However, I'm stuck with a 30 gallon.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> I absolutely agree with Aquariam. You have 150 gallons of fun, colourful, interactive, and crazy fish. Did I forget to mention they're only 50cents each for F1? If I had the tank space I'd go for a larger mbuna tank. However, I'm stuck with a 30 gallon.


Well.. that depends what you get. The F1 thing is highly unlikely, by the way, as most 'w/c' fish that come out of Africa are actually already F1/2 and have been bred at centers on and around the lake. I wouldn't take W/C or F# seriously unless you know the person who collected them.

I got some Honduran Redpoints (CA, but it's an example) a few years ago where I knew the guy who actually went to Honduras and got them out of a river. The fish I got were the offspring. That you can bank on. A fish from a petshop or someone's basement where you can't trace the line back, don't take the F number seriously.

Also, it's worth it to pay more for higher quality fish. A 1" fish may be $1/5/20, it depends what you're after. Always pay more for higher quality fish from higher quality suppliers.

For example, Darius, on PN, charges considerably higher than average prices. His fish are, however, insanely perfect, and worth every penny.


----------



## carbonlist

I don't remember the name of the cichlid keeper who sold me some F1's and 2's for 50cents each (part of the reason was i'm in still school and he began fishkeeping in school as well). He lives in Markham and owns 30+ tanks totaling 1400 gallons. He lives in the Raymerville area. Does anybody know who I'm talking about?


----------



## carbonlist

I need some help. Following AquariAM's instructions, I bought an ac70 for my 30 gallon but the current seems WAYY TOO STRONG. The rams are being pushed around...any way to get by this?


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

Healthy rams should actually enjoy the current. By pushed around, do you mean they are swimming INTO the current, or avoiding it? There is a slide-thing on the intake. Slide it all the way to the right. That will reduce the outflow, while maintaining a recirculating internal flow.

W


----------



## carbonlist

It turns out I was just a little too worried for my own good. The GBR are perfectly fine now and loves the current... Although I have a question, the rams are 1.5-2" now...does that mean they only have another year to live? If so...my chances of breeding them greatly decreases. 

Adding pictures. Please help me distinguish male and female. They all have pink bellies and all have blue blotches on the black. I was told by my uncle there are 2 males and 4 females but I'm seriously doubting that now. However, 3 of them look a lot more colourful than the other 3.

Any help is appreciated.


----------



## AquariAM

Need pictures to sex the fish.

Fill the tank so there's just about 1/2" to 1" between the lid and the water. The filter output being submerged significantly will reduce the amount of turbulence in the water


----------



## TBemba

carbonlist said:


> It turns out I was just a little too worried for my own good. The GBR are perfectly fine now and loves the current... Although I have a question, the rams are 1.5-2" now...does that mean they only have another year to live? If so...my chances of breeding them greatly decreases.
> 
> Adding pictures. Please help me distinguish male and female. They all have pink bellies and all have blue blotches on the black. I was told by my uncle there are 2 males and 4 females but I'm seriously doubting that now. However, 3 of them look a lot more colourful than the other 3.
> 
> Any help is appreciated.


Here is a good Website about sexing the Ram


----------



## carbonlist

Thanks TBemba. That was quite helpful. Based on the site, all my GBR are females. There are no distinctive blue blotches on the GBR's black spot area. However, my guts tell me there are 3 pairs.. *cross fingers* I'll try to upload pictures asap.


----------



## carbonlist

it's been about a week now. The fish' colours are lacking. They remind me of marbled angelfish. Hardly any colour. These wild caught Blue Rams are no match for the German Blue Rams.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

Just give them more time! They've been through heck and flown around the world! Baby them and they will surely be beautiful. They are probably not fully mature. Wildcaught colorations are often subtle, but no less pleasant, when the fish is healthy. Most species will look like "crap" when they feel like crap! 

Can anyone tell me if wild rams would "chill out" and relax and be happier with almond leaves? How about Electric Blue Rams? I have these almond leaves now and I'm wondering if my EBR would like some 'o dat.

W


----------



## AquariAM

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Just give them more time! They've been through heck and flown around the world! Baby them and they will surely be beautiful. They are probably not fully mature. Wildcaught colorations are often subtle, but no less pleasant, when the fish is healthy. Most species will look like "crap" when they feel like crap!
> 
> Can anyone tell me if wild rams would "chill out" and relax and be happier with almond leaves? How about Electric Blue Rams? I have these almond leaves now and I'm wondering if my EBR would like some 'o dat.
> 
> W


I imagine so.


----------



## carbonlist

I've been reading up a lot on German Blue Rams but I know I should take any knowledge from the internet with a grain of salt. Can anyone with breeding experience tell me what pH I should keep the rams in? Currently, it's 1 part r/o to 2 parts softwater. It results in a pH of 6 and kH of 3. Nitrates are <3ppm, Nitrites are 0.

Should I add almond leaves and more plants?


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> I've been reading up a lot on German Blue Rams but I know I should take any knowledge from the internet with a grain of salt. Can anyone with breeding experience tell me what pH I should keep the rams in? Currently, it's 1 part r/o to 2 parts softwater. It results in a pH of 6 and kH of 3. Nitrates are <3ppm, Nitrites are 0.
> 
> Should I add almond leaves and more plants?


That's spectacular. I honestly don't think it'll benefit tank bred rams as much as wild rams. It's pretty close to what the fish are often collected in AFAIK but tank bred rams would probably have been bred somewhere around 7-7.5

Based on experience I'd say you'll probably have more frequent spawns with those conditions than you would in straight tap water if the fish's other needs are met, regardless of whether they are W/C or not.


----------



## carbonlist

Thinking that these might not have been the WC my uncle promised me...I did a large 50% water change with soft water pH 7. Instantly, 2 pairs laid eggs.

However, I do have 1 question regarding algae. Ever since I lowered the pH and hardness, I have never seen any algae...not even a smidge of algae. Before I lowered pH, I would've had to scrape the walls every week to see the fish.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> Thinking that these might not have been the WC my uncle promised me...I did a large 50% water change with soft water pH 7. _ Instantly, 2 pairs laid eggs_.


Can't complain 



carbonlist said:


> However, I do have 1 question regarding algae. Ever since I lowered the pH and hardness, I have never seen any algae...not even a smidge of algae. Before I lowered pH, I would've had to scrape the walls every week to see the fish.


Less nutrients in the water due to the amount of it that is R/O?


----------



## carbonlist

I don't know...it's 1 part r/o to 2 parts soft water tap...OHH!!! _soft water_ tap. Hmm...now I wonder how my plants are still living...they are hygrophilia polysperma and java fern.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> I don't know...it's 1 part r/o to 2 parts soft water tap...OHH!!! _soft water_ tap. Hmm...now I wonder how my plants are still living...they are hygrophilia polysperma and java fern.


I don't know man. I don't do plants. If I put a java fern or an anubias in an aquarium it goes in there at it's own risk. I'm not responsible for damage, lost or stolen leaves, unexpected plant deaths, melting, yellowing, browning, or anything in between. Several Anubias have survived and grown into very attractive plants for me. I have no idea how this has happened. I've killed many more aquatic plants than I've raised successfully so I'm not the person to ask.

I've recently switched over to growing lots of different kinds of algae by adding a little bit of plant nutrients to a tank with no plants to supply a staple for some Goby Cichlids. I find the algae much easier to grow. It's free too.

If your fish are spawning then you know they're content and that's the main thing .


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

Me too. 

If Hygro won't grow, ain't nothin' gonna grow. That stuff is considered a "weed" by the serious planted tank afficionados, but ME I love the stuff. People who are not planted-tank-nerds come to my house, and they are more impressed by the tank full of 2' tall hygro than by any of my other tanks.

Java fern grows (albeit slowly) for me, and java moss mostly melts. Anubias lasts until it one day it just turns yellow or brown and melts. I have tried ferts, I have tried various additives. I have changed lighting and stocking levels.

When I have succeeded, it has been because I have not given up, and because I have realized that the underwater world needs its "dandelion" equivalent, and that appears to be Hygro.  My mom in particular now wants an angel tank with tall fronds of hygro and valisneria, which I seem to have also gotten able to keep alive.

W


----------



## carbonlist

do anybody buy Blue Ram fry? 10/1$? 

I have around 300-400 free swimming fry thanks to you guys. Anybody interested?


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> do anybody buy Blue Ram fry? 10/1$?
> 
> I have around 300-400 free swimming fry thanks to you guys. Anybody interested?


IME You can't really assign any value to a fish until you can see what it is. That's usually around 1/2" or so. Can you manage to hang on to them maybe until they hit 1/2"?


----------



## carbonlist

hehe...I think I'll be lucky if i can hang on to 30 of them. [turns around & looks at tank] another blue ram jumped over the screen...and ate a couple fries. Time to lower water levels.


----------



## Chris S

The hardest part of spawning rams is fry survival, at least in my experience. It sounds like you had a nice large spawn though, congrats! Start hatching bbs!


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

Try to move them now, they all die. WHat's your feeding plan? You will lose 90% of them (they will die) if not fed the right food, every few hours.

W


----------



## carbonlist

first 2 days I fed them boiled egg yolk and mushy frozen cucumber. I don't think they ate any of it or they could've  I already hatched a lot of bbs (first time trying...used too many eggs) and will be trying to feed them today. 

how do you tell which gbr have paired? They swim in a community and just spawn, fertilize, then swim together again. They don't show aggression against each other or anything like that. I had 2 spawns at around the same time...so there's probably 2 pairs. The colours on them are still pretty dull so I can't tell male from female. I've tried like 20 sites showing me how to sex them.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

you got a good hatch your first try? I must have a bad batch of BBS eggs. It has not yet worked for me. Time to buy some different ones.

W


----------



## carbonlist

KhuliLoachFan said:


> you got a good hatch your first try? I must have a bad batch of BBS eggs. It has not yet worked for me. Time to buy some different ones.
> 
> W


It's the 95% hatch rate ones I bought from Lucky's. I just fed them...A couple are eating and the larger BS are being eaten by my adult rams.

as for sexing them. I took a couple pictures (i'm a noob). Hopefully you guys can help me out




























thanks


----------



## Chris S

There is no way I can sex them from those pictures. You need closer pictures of individual fish, or pairs.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> It's the 95% hatch rate ones I bought from Lucky's. I just fed them...A couple are eating and the larger BS are being eaten by my adult rams.
> 
> as for sexing them. I took a couple pictures (i'm a noob). Hopefully you guys can help me out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks












That's a good picture to sex. You can't sex a blurry smudge. Common sense. They're also too small to sex reasonably.


----------



## Bwhiskered

A ph of 7 or lower controls algae. Algae prefers alkaline water.


----------



## Chris S

Bwhiskered said:


> A ph of 7 or lower controls algae. Algae prefers alkaline water.


Not sure where you came up with this, I think it is a huge over-generalization. Much like everything else, certain species thrive in certain conditions. Many types of algae only exist in acidic waters, some as low as a pH of 2.


----------



## carbonlist

it's been 2 weeks since I first set up the tank with new parameters. Originally, it had a pH of 7.4 maybe 7.8. Algae growth was crazy!! after I switched to a pH of 6, all the algae died. 2 weeks later, light green algae pops up everywhere and it's really really hard to remove off the walls.

How do you take a good picture?


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> it's been 2 weeks since I first set up the tank with new parameters. Originally, it had a pH of 7.4 maybe 7.8. Algae growth was crazy!! after I switched to a pH of 6, all the algae died. 2 weeks later, light green algae pops up everywhere and it's really really hard to remove off the walls.
> 
> How do you take a good picture?


macro, low ISO, good lighting. Sometimes flash helps.


----------

