# 180G Journal



## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Hey everyone,

New to the forum, looks like a great community.
Wanted to share my experience as I get into a planted 180g FW build.

About 10 years ago I got into crested geckos and really got into the vivarium part of the hobby... building tanks and interesting ecosystems... bred them for awhile.

Then I went into dart frogs with a large colony of borja ridge ventrimaculata housed in a custom 100g planted viv. The vivarium included a 6gallon planted pond feature where I had guppies, tetras etc. Having spent a number of years in the dart frog hobby, I certainly appreciate the value of a local hobby forum/community.

Recently I undertook a project to renovate my basement in full and decided to pull the trigger on a 180gallon in-wall aquarium.

I haven't yet decided on the fish species, but am really taken with the Amano style of Nature Aquarium and will likely be emulating this style of tank.

I've attached a couple pictures of the build location in the basement. From the one side of the wall, as you come down the stairs into the basement there is a 'porthole' which exposes about 1/3 of the tank. From the other side, the tank will be fully visible from the bar/office/theatre sections of my basement.

The opening is oversized by about 8" on the left side to allow for me to run plumbing/electrical up the side of the tank. The idea was to then cover the front in wood paneling with doors etc.

Seeing as we were framing the basement from scratch, while I know it is over-kill, the contractor went with LVL beam, supported on the concrete floor and tied into the wall structure. Thought was that this should remain straight, strong and sturdy for many years to come. I have included a dedicated electrical circuit with two, 2-gang outlets (1top, 1 bottom - at opposite ends of the tank), some ventilation and a place to run RO lines once the bar (to the left) is complete and an RO unit installed. We used moisture resilient drywall and the ceiling was first strapped with 1/2 drywall to allow me to screw/secure into this anywhere to hang lights etc.

The 180g low-e tank from Aqua Inspirations is on order, as is the 75g sump.
I'm inclined to go with Radion FW LEDs and the Vortech pump. Beyond that I haven't finalized equipment yet.

One area I'm struggling to nail-down is the cabinet facing... how I am going to complete the paneling on the front of the tank. I would like to have one large top hinged door across the top, and a couple doors across the bottom... My thought was then to have a large panel on the left, covering the excess space off the end of the tank, which I can remove if needed to service the plumbing and electrical.

Attached is a conceptual drawing for this as it ties into the bar... 
I had a quote to face the tank/openings in a Walnut Vaneer/Waterproof MDF product, but the quote was significantly more than I had imagined... Would definitely appreciate any suggestions, contacts on this piece!

Look forward to sharing my progress, learning from the vast experience of the community and diving into this project head-first!

Happy to get some feedback, suggestions and questions to help guide me through this exciting project and hopefully add some value to this community along the way.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*welcome*

hey there welcome to the forum , talk about go big or go home , look forward to seeing your tank progress , looks great 
tagging along here 
cheers 
tom


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

Welcome t the forum. Wow 180 gallon planted tank. Are you going to run co2?


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

*Here we go!*

Alright... so it's been awhile since I started the thread, but really excited to finally get this bad-boy underway.

The basement is done, the tank is in and I'm getting prep'd to begin hardscape...

I've changed a couple things... for a couple reasons, decided against sump/refugium and have decided instead to go cannister filter. I've picked up the FX6. Read nothing but good things

The other change I made was that I am shying away from a RO system, the more I looked into those, the more I think I'm better off with tap water given the beneficial minerals etc.

Planning to pickup Amazonia soil and then start hunting down some good rock/driftwood. Must admit, I'm a little dissapointed with the local driftwood selection of GTA W aquarium stores at this point.

As for fish, I am going to wait to fully committ until I get the thing planted, but I am leaning towards a school (approx 75) Harlequin Rasbora, a small group of German Blue Rams. Id love some torpedo barbs as well, but I'm not sure I want to put a lid on this tank...

As for lighting, I've installed 2 Ecotech Radion FW with their hanging kit. I recognize this may not be enough, and may need a third... Going to get the TIR wide angle lenses for them and see how we fare for awhile...

CO2, yes, I will be going C02, but I haven't yet nailed down the best C02 system. Not fully researched on this yet...

One challenge I'm working with and hadnt planed for is that because there is only one accessible side (the left) to the tank, I will need to have all equipment off this side... including intake/output... Afraid I'll end up with a bad dead-zone on the right hand side...

Any suggestions? Thinking I should invest in a wavemaker and position it under the water output to make sure its really sent across the tank... thoughts??

Ideally I want to keep anything I invest in for this tank compatible with APEX as I'd like to go that route in the future..

Anyway, really looking forward to some comments/suggestions

Thanks for reading!


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

I think you could fit me and my aquarium into yours 

I need to get myself a basement!


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## Boreas (Dec 8, 2015)

I'm not sure I understand correctly why only the left side will be accessible. It's because the right side and rear is flush against a wall?

Will the entire top of the tank be accessible? I would say that's crucial.

I use Hydor Koralia for extra circulation. These have a magnet on the outside of the tank that only extends about 1/2 an inch. There may be better options. My output is in the front left and my input is in the back right. I've worked on creating a counter clockwise circular flow in the tank with few dead spots. 

More expensive reef style equipment can create random flow patterns. or even intermittent flow ie: a wave maker. I've seen people use a "Closed loop" system just for additional flow.

I'm no expert, but hopefully this gives you some ideas.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

This is going to be amazing! Subbed for sure. Keep the updates coming......


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I use an atomizer for my co2 and normally I would recommend one to just about anyone but in your case running one may not be ideal. Have you thought about running an external reactor? That may be your best bet


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Boreas said:


> I'm not sure I understand correctly why only the left side will be accessible. It's because the right side and rear is flush against a wall?
> 
> Will the entire top of the tank be accessible? I would say that's crucial.
> 
> ...


You're right... yes the back and right sides are flush with the wall. I ran into some challenges structurally when reno'ing the basement that limited the wall... I had hoped it wouldn't be too much of a challenge, and other than input-output I think it should work out just fine. I will have access all the way across the tank from the top and 8' on the left that is open all the way down under neath.

I may very likely fill the tank empty and test out the water flow before I aquascape, but yes I anticipate needing a wavemaker/powerhead. I'm torn because I really want to go APEX in the future... but there arent too many that are compatible and not super expensive!

Anyone have suggestions about how to best test circulation and water flow? I was thinking maybe food colouring, but gueessing this will disperse too fast, something like glitter would be a bad idea as it would clog up filter etc...


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

Go for ecotech MP40 or MP60. Very minimalist form and you have control over flow. 

To test flow, just use your imagination 

Place powerhead on the side of the aquarium near the front. If your tank is tall, you need two, on near the surface, one near the substrate.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

planter said:


> I use an atomizer for my co2 and normally I would recommend one to just about anyone but in your case running one may not be ideal. Have you thought about running an external reactor? That may be your best bet


Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. I want to make sure the C02 is being used efficiently...
One things I am beginning to find a little frustrating about the FX6 is that both external reactors and in-line products (ie Heaters) are not an easy undertaking... I imagine I will need to look at installing a diverter... potentially for both... The ribbed hosing of the fluvial is both very large diameter, but also tricky to find adapters for it seems.

Has anyone had experience with the ISTA C02 products? I like the fact they are designed for aquarium use and I have a substantial credit at a local aquarium store that carries their line of C02 products.
http://www.istaproducts.com/product/co2-aluminum-cylinder-supply-set-1l-professional/

I'm debating between Amazonia and Netlea... Continue to read positive things about both.
Traveling to AngelFins and AI in the next few days to look for some inspiration, driftwood and rock... Will be picking up soil as well...


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

cb1021 said:


> Go for ecotech MP40 or MP60. Very minimalist form and you have control over flow.
> 
> To test flow, just use your imagination
> 
> Place powerhead on the side of the aquarium near the front. If your tank is tall, you need two, on near the surface, one near the substrate.


I'm really keen on the MP40 and agree two would be ideal! Given budget... I may opt for one... and my thought was to install it on the back, right under neath my output, at the top of the water coloumn... Then have my filter input installed near the bottom of the tank, on the front.

Think that would be ok?


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

No difference between amazonia and netlea from what I can tell. 

FX6 is difficult to work with for all the aesthetic accessories sought after by planted tank people. Hydor in-line heater unreliable, beware. 

For co2, best option is to build a cerges reactor and use a dedicated external pump to drive it. This setup also gives you more flow to the tank as you requested. 

Atomizers will leave you with eye-sore micro bubbles in the tank. Also requires unnecessary cleaning.


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

cb1021 said:


> No difference between amazonia and netlea from what I can tell.
> 
> FX6 is difficult to work with for all the aesthetic accessories sought after by planted tank people. Hydor in-line heater unreliable, beware.
> 
> ...


Yeah the bubbles were annoying at first but after a few months of using mine I noticed that most of the bubbles have disappeared. As far as cleaning I've only cleaned mine once there are almost no residue in it.

I've used both ada soil and netlea. I'm currently using netlea soil. I dose dry ferts and I haven't really seen a difference in performance. The netlea does stick together a little better I've been able to slope it quite high. The pellets also seem harder and does not breaknow or turn to mud as easily as the ada stuff. I also noticed that the ada soil tinted my water slightly but from what I've read that was more than likely a bad batch or bag of soil which I guess can happen with anything you buy. Both products also don't list what's in it so it's hard to say with lasts or performs better long term. Though I would imagine both will eventually run out of nutrients at some point

Based on my experience and I would lean towards the netlea if and when I decide to start another planted tank


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

You could also put a CO2 diffuser under the filter intake. This is what I do and I don't have microbubbles. I also don't have the challenge of trying to get a reactor set up or worrying about leaks from an additional set of hoses.

I've read that sometimes this causes the impeller to rattle, but in my case it doesn't. I do sometimes get a blast of bubbles coming through the output, but they float to the surface and disappear.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

cb1021 said:


> No difference between amazonia and netlea from what I can tell.
> 
> FX6 is difficult to work with for all the aesthetic accessories sought after by planted tank people. Hydor in-line heater unreliable, beware.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip! Definitely leaning towards an external reactor the more I look into it. On the fence about whether I will try and solve the plumbing challenges of connecting it to the FX6 hosing... or whether I will run a seperate pump... Given that I only have one side of the aquarium really accessible I'm leaning towards DYI an in-line/diverted option off the FX6 hosing...

Picked up a regulator... going to give the Ista dual stage regulator a try... was economical and the store assured me that of the 40+ theyve sold, only had one bad experience... so crossing my fingers...

Plan to get a 5-10lbs tank... although budget is really getting tight...


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

planter said:


> Yeah the bubbles were annoying at first but after a few months of using mine I noticed that most of the bubbles have disappeared. As far as cleaning I've only cleaned mine once there are almost no residue in it.
> 
> I've used both ada soil and netlea. I'm currently using netlea soil. I dose dry ferts and I haven't really seen a difference in performance. The netlea does stick together a little better I've been able to slope it quite high. The pellets also seem harder and does not breaknow or turn to mud as easily as the ada stuff. I also noticed that the ada soil tinted my water slightly but from what I've read that was more than likely a bad batch or bag of soil which I guess can happen with anything you buy. Both products also don't list what's in it so it's hard to say with lasts or performs better long term. Though I would imagine both will eventually run out of nutrients at some point
> 
> Based on my experience and I would lean towards the netlea if and when I decide to start another planted tank


Thanks, was about to pull the trigger on the Netlea as, like you, I continue to see positive reviews.

Unfortunately, could only find one source and they werent getting enough in for another 3 weeks... just dont have the patience lol. Ended up with ADA.

But MAN the powersand is expensive!! Couldn't swallow it... $240 for a 18L bag... damn....


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Alright, need some advice everyone...

Picked up 100lbs of Dragon stone and some driftwood...

Attached some pictures of where my head is at.
The white corrugated plastic was put in place to visualize changes in height within the substrate that I will achieve with stone and sloped ADA.

Thought was to have the substrate raised in the left right of the tank, sloped down to right of centre, with a shallow section through the middle (from front to back viewing areas) and across the front. Three driftwood clumps, two appearing together on the left slope and then another raised substrate and driftwood clump on the right...

Keeping in mind this tank is veiewable in-full from the front and 1/2 from the other side of the wall...

Really like how this looks in theory... gives me a couple distinct focal points, lighting zones and planting areas.

*Question: Is there anything wrong with building up the base of the subtrate with river rock?*
Reason is... Id rather not buy another 3-4 bags of ADA to build it up as high as I'd like... dont want to mix with other gravel/substrate underneath in case I choose to rescape in the future & also understand going too deep can promote/encourage dead zones (anerobic soil)

Thoughts??


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Alright so as mentioned... there is little in the way of patience on my end...
With all this soil, driftwood and rock lying around, just had to dig in and see what came of things...

Quite happy with how it laid out... but will give it a day or two to sink in, run my lights through a couple schedules and see how it settles with me.

Admittedly, it was harder than I thought to get it 'just right' from both the front and the back portal/view

Still have plenty of rock leftover... Deviated from the initial plan a bit.

Put down approx 1" of river rock under the left and right mounds, just to build them up.

The entire bottom was sprinkled with a bottle ea of ADA Bacter 100 and Super Clear

Have 1.5 bags of Amazonia left, leaning toward raising the back left some more and raising up that driftwood...


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

Looks great. Btw where did you buy the tank?

thx


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

cb1021 said:


> Looks great. Btw where did you buy the tank?
> 
> thx


Thanks,
It is a 15mm, low-iron ordered from AI... FireAqua brand. 180x60x60


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Sooo is it fair to say most/many hobbyists in Toronto are using RO??
Just tested my tap-water for the first time... 

Was a little surprised just how high hardness and PH was out of the tap!

GH 160-170ppm
Ph 7.2-7.4


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't use RO. Just plain old tap water


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

What fish are you keeping? 

I keep reading mixed things on hardness... 

I'm confident I can bring down PH...


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

No need to play with ph. All fish can thrive in 7.2 to 7.4.


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm currently keeping discus and German blue rams


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## Dis (Apr 16, 2010)

Ya most people just use tap


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

I use tap. I even boost GH a bit to make sure I've got what plants need and KH a bit so I can put more CO2 into the water while keeping the pH a little higher.


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## Harry Muscle (Mar 21, 2007)

Can I ask where you got the 100lbs of dragon stone from? I've already raided the Hamilton and Mississauga Big Al's but I still need to get more for my 112G tank.

Thanks,
Harry


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Harry Muscle said:


> Can I ask where you got the 100lbs of dragon stone from? I've already raided the Hamilton and Mississauga Big Al's but I still need to get more for my 112G tank.
> 
> Thanks,
> Harry


Yah Big Als is a little hit and miss but I found the Mississauga location good to order more if you need it.

I ended up also picking up about half of it from Aqua Inspirations in Scarborough. They had a tonne! I'd call ahead though if you're headed from West end. It's a bit of a hike

I still have a bunch left too if you find it tough to get more.


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeah AI has a lot I just got back from there.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

*Input please!*

Thanks for the input re: RO water... glad to know my intentions are good

So I have pondered over my scape about a week, and really like the left side & middle. The right side... not so much... Ive decided to get rid of the larger rocks while keeping the slope... I will use small dragon stones to scatter the slope and break up some dense/tall plants in this area...

Below is my initial plant list and I have attached a layout v1 for each side along with the frontal picture of that area.

I will be running C02 and ferts... Lighting is currently 2 Radion FW... I will be getting the wide angle lenses, but I am not naive that I will almost certainly need a third light...

Another challenge I have to work with is regarding flow... I am restricted to put the input/output of my FX6 on the left side of the tank... I imagine I'll need a powerhead off the right side...

Anyway... I would really appreciate some additional input, whether on hardscape or planting plan... theres a lot of great knowledge and a tonne of creativity on this forum...

Thanks all!

PLANT LIST - Corresponding location in attached diagram
1)	Monte Carlo
2)	Lilaopsis novae-zelandiae (New Zealand Grassplant)
3)	Myriophyllum Tuberculatum (Red Myriophyllum)
4)	Heteranthera Zosterifolia (Stargrass)
5)	Lobeila cardinalis (Scarlet lobelia, cardinal flower) - availability?
6)	Rotala rotundifolia (Dwarf Rotala)
7)	Vallisneria Spiralis ( Straight vallisneria)
8)	Vallisneria Tortiflia (Twisted Vallisneria)
9)	Cryptocoryne parva (Tiny Cryptocoryne)
10) Cryptocoryne undulate (Undulate cryptocoryne)

15) Hygrophila Corymbosa (Giant Hygrophila)
16) Anubius on driftwood (large) 
17) Egeria densa (Pondweed)
18) Elocharis acicularis (Hairgrass)
19) Echinodorus 'Ozelot Green'
20) Crytpocoryne wendtii

Various anubias, java fern & Christmas moss attached to driftwood focal point


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

The hardscape looks good so far, plant list looks good. Just remember you will lose 1/3 to 1/2 of your hardscape to plant growth, so you might want to do a bit more hardscape or position the rocks so the will definitely standout from the plants. I look forward to more pics. cheers



PlantedTank said:


> Thanks for the input re: RO water... glad to know my intentions are good
> 
> So I have pondered over my scape about a week, and really like the left side & middle. The right side... not so much... Ive decided to get rid of the larger rocks while keeping the slope... I will use small dragon stones to scatter the slope and break up some dense/tall plants in this area...
> 
> ...


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I would stack the stones in the back left and then fill with aquasoil to instead of sticking the stones in an up right position. That method creates a better sense of depth. I'd also create some type of barrier between the Monte Carlo foreground like thin long stones. It will help keep the other plants from mixing with Monte. Simply speaking from a maintenance/trimming aspect. If you bury the stones low enough the Monte and the other plants behind them should be able to hide some of it when it fills in.

I also have a large co2 reactor your welcome to borrow it. Just to see if that will fulfill your needs for co2 delivery. It looks like this one.

You can run it independently on a return pump if you have one or if you find a fix for the hosing you can plumb it to the fx6.

There is also one more option you can get a pre-filter with a built in pump and plumb it into that. AI were selling some awhile back they might still carry them. I don't remember it being very expensive at all.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks JimmyJam & Planter for the feedback. I did feel something wasn't quite right with it and so I took your advice and built up the back with some stone, added another bag of amazonia... It may be hard to notice, but the difference in the depth and the overall impression of the tank is huge! Definitely the right way to move with it! Raised the rear left about 5 inches

And Planter... very kind to offer the reactor for loan! Thank you! I may take you up on that... Need to settle on exactly what you mentioned... what product to pump the water up/out and through it... Not quite there just yet. Considered diverting the FX6 output to allow for a downsizing & second hose for C02 reactor, but have decided not to mess with the flow and risk impacting it negatively as flow will likely be a challenge on this tank as-is

Keen to use the rear left side to get some taller, rapidly growing plants behind the driftwood and then gradually come down in height across to the rock edging... 

Already deviated from my plant list based on local availability and have picked up the plants below to get started.

Not sure whether this is a little unorthodox and would love some feedback on it... but I'm going to start this tank with a bit more low-tank effort and gauge the initial response of the plants... Test the waters so to speak... Don't want to fully plant this thing quite yet and then find out I have a major problem with flow, water parameters or lighting etc...

Picked up some Seachem Flourish Advance with the intention of doing all i can to encourage some nice strong root growth from day 1... 

Once things appear to be stable and are shaping up I will fully plant... readjust anything as needed and at that point go 'hi-tech'... I recognize I will likely need more lighting, plan to add C02 and will likely move towards dry ferts.

At that point, will likely add fish... 

Thanks all! 
Updated Pics attached.

Initial Plant Purchase:
1) Myriphyllium Aquaticum - Left.rear - Behind driftwood
2) Micrathemum 'Monte Carlo' - Foreground/lower shelf carpet
3) Cryptocoryne Willisii - Center/left.mid-ground - in front of driftwood
4) Eleocharis Acicularis - Various - A couple sloped areas from foreground to upper shelf & right-hand upper shelf
5) Eleocharis 'Mini' - Center.mid-ground - in and around focal dragon stone
6) Alternathera reineckii 'Purple' - Centre/left.rear - of focal dragon stone
7) Alternathera reinickii 'mini' - Centre/left.mid-ground - in front of driftwood


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeah that looks better. Scaping a tank like that does not look easy. It's dry now take your time with it. I re-scape my tank often and that takes me quite some time I can only imagine what doing a re-scape on a tank that size is like.

The reactor is just sitting here so if and when you want to try it let me know.

The low light thing might be a good approach though it will be hard to gauge if your co2 is dialed in with less plant mass with less light and slower growing plants. Its also going to take a long time to fill in. You also may find that you will have to re-tune/adjust things once you introduce plants that are more co2 dependent. But having established rooted plants does have its benefits. 

I find that co2 is the biggest factor with planted tanks. It can be difficult to know if we are delivering enough. Drop checkers and charts let's us know we are in within a ballpark range but that's about it. A tank that size only complicates matters. I'm the past I used to fiddle with lights, ferts, stocking levels, soils, RO water and so on. Always assuming my co2 was good. Looking back now in pretty sure my co2 was the cause of most of my woes.

When in doubt lower light and up the co2. That fixes most of my problems now. 

Watch the ammonia spike with the soil. That's a lot of soil.

I'm looking forward to seeing this thing running.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks Planter. Ive decided not to run C02 right from the start... want to get a better feel for this tank before I start dosing CO2 or ferts.

Glad my thoughts re lower light initially make sense.
I also read that Algae growth requires long, sustained periods of photosynthesis, whereas typical plants start photosynthesis the moment lights turn on...

So I've set my Radions with a 'siesta' period in the middle of the day... in effect I have two sunlight patterns for the day with a total of 7hrs, 1.5 of which decreases to lights off in the middle of the day...
Hopefully help me keep algae at bay initially.


SOOOOOOO>>>>

I planted my initial plants...
Admittedly, the Tropica plants had much more compressed/short root structures than I had anticipated... I found the montecarlo in particular really hard to get rooted/firmly into the Amazonia soil.

What REALLY sucks... is once I planted into moist ADA soil, as their videos suggest, I then began filling the tank...

Check out the pictures to see just how cloudy she got!! UNREAL. I was careful not to disturb with the water input too!
Anyway, was NOT impressed.
Ended up doing 5x 50% water changes (fluvial makes water changes easy but only allows for 50% water level before the syphon stops in my tank)

There is/was also a fine layer of dust all over everything... the plants, the rocks etc... see pic

Anyway, mostly clear now... although white/hazy. I am putting two bags of perigean in the canister, hopefully this helps... Not sure if its just a chemical reaction or what...

The last and final frustration... and not sure how I will get over this one, is that there are two varieties of Eloocharis and Alternathera... One short variety and one tall variety of each...
So the frustrating part comes when I turned on my filter and about 25% of the plants I put into the ADA then proceeded to float to the top! Really surprised how light the ADA is once water is added... combined with Tropica roots, not a lot to hold.

ANYWAY I now have mixed the Elocharis and Alternathera - short & tall and don't know where to plant them back seeing as I was trying to achieve two different heights in two different areas.


Anyway... updated pics attached.


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## Dis (Apr 16, 2010)

Looks awesome


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

PlantedTank said:


> I also read that Algae growth requires long, sustained periods of photosynthesis, whereas typical plants start photosynthesis the moment lights turn on...


What did you read that convinced you the above was true? I've looked into it a bit and while some people think it works other "experts" haven't seen any proof of algae control.

The one angle that does make sense is with tanks that don't inject CO2 and rely on some other source. In such cases the siesta allows the CO2 to build up in the water after it has been depleted by the initial lighting period.

And of course, many just like to have the lights on when they're home rather than at work.


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I've done the siesta thing. Although I think most people do it to reduce the overall time the lights are on so they can enjoy their tanks lit up when they are home. Saves bulb life and power. Plants start photosynthesis as soon as they are exposed to enough light. No idea if algae is the same. I think this myth came from folks running lights all day. Plants only use light for so many hours before they need to rest. Most people say around 12 hours but who knows if every species behaves that way. I find 4 -6 hours more than enough time.


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

PlantedTank said:


> Thanks Planter. Ive decided not to run C02 right from the start... want to get a better feel for this tank before I start dosing CO2 or ferts.
> 
> Glad my thoughts re lower light initially make sense.
> I also read that Algae growth requires long, sustained periods of photosynthesis, whereas typical plants start photosynthesis the moment lights turn on...
> ...


Ahh yes the ada mud show. I had the same thing happen to me when I used ada. I'm using netlea now. When I initially flooded the tank with the netlea I didn't have that happen but now after I rescape the tank I go through the same mess. I load my filters with floss to help clear it fast then I rinse the floss out or toss it out depending on my mood.


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## Navil (Jul 8, 2016)

*Wow!*

Looks great!


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

infolific said:


> What did you read that convinced you the above was true? I've looked into it a bit and while some people think it works other "experts" haven't seen any proof of algae control.
> 
> The one angle that does make sense is with tanks that don't inject CO2 and rely on some other source. In such cases the siesta allows the CO2 to build up in the water after it has been depleted by the initial lighting period.
> 
> And of course, many just like to have the lights on when they're home rather than at work.


I took this from Peter Hiscocks book 'Encylopedia of Aquarium Plants'. 
"Plants are able to regulate the rate of photosynthesis relatively easily, and quickly respond to changes in light conditions. In other words, they do not take long to warm up and start photosynthesizing once there is sufficient light. However, algae are not as biologically advanced as plants and need a long and relatively uninterrupted period of light to function properly. It is possible to combat algae in the aquarium by controlling the intensity and period of lighting in the aquarium and creating a 'siesta period'. It goes on...

I'm not saying its a huge game changer for algae control, but if it helps keep it at bay, even a little bit them I'm all for it at this point while my tank gets established.

I have also read as you suggested, for those tanks without CO2 (this is for now) then it helps to allow CO2 levels to rise back up a bit.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Ill have some updated pictures tomorrow.

I do have some good signs of growth on a couple plants in the last 5 days... new roots, shoots etc... but other plants are starting to show some signs of distress...

At this point ammonia is through the roof and I can't seem to shake the white 'haze' in the water... Doesn't seem to be getting better at all...


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeah the ammonia is nuts with that soil. Some use it to cycle the tank then plant it after. If your going to plant right away wait until it's cycled then add the fish. A couple of 100 percent water changes after the cycle is done should do it. The only haze I got from the soil was the film that was left of the glass after the first fill up. 

The ammonia is good for the plants just keep the light low so you don't induce algae


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Alright... so things seem to be going reasonably well, one week in. Water is still hazy/white and Ammonia is still really high... 
I did add a bottle of Colony with the hopes of kickstarting the good bacteria. I also helped the filter along by putting a bag of biological media from my established Fluval Edge tank into my canister filter.

Although a couple plants are showing signs of stress and I would certainly appreciate some opinions on what may be going on.
Water parameters: 
Temp - 77
pH - 6.6
NH3 Ammonia - 1.5ppm
N02 Nitrite - 0ppm
NO3 Nitrate - 0ppm
GH - 50-100
KH - 0-50ppm

Lighting: 3x Radion Freshwater
Starts 1pm Ends at 11pm
Broken into two periods
1st crest at 3:30pm 
Siesta (off) at 6:00pm
2nd crest at 8:30pm
Night (off) at 11:00pm

Anubius leaves are starting to ripple a lot and one or two leaves are starting to die back. - See Pic I am guessing this is due to change in the lighting, I believe the lighting I have now is much stronger than the low-light setup at the store.

Alternathera reineckii 'purple' a couple leaves are now showing larger holes appearing. There are no snails/critters in the tank yet. 

Althernatthera ******* 'mini' - leaves are starting to curl, particularly at the ends

Crypts seem to be doing real well... They are shooting out roots and looking real nice

Monte Carlo is slow... but still looks healthy and I see signs of new growth/rooting

Myriphyllum is showing new growth, but the old/original growth doesn't look amazing... 

Eleocharis looks healthy, seeing new roots although some of the longer blades are turning yellow...

Scaurogyne repens - Looked to be melting a bit initially, but not looking quite heathy


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

Were all of these plants in co2 injected tanks before?


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Negative, 90% of the plants were HortLab/Tropica plants...
Someone elsewhere suggested that perhaps Ammonia (1.5-2ppm) is high enough its burning my plants? 
Is that likely?

It was my understanding that typically very little fert is required in ADA in the beginning as its loaded with it... I've also added Flourish Trace - half dose, twice in the last week wondering if that would help...

Otherwise, I'm thinking perhaps its a lighting issue...
Hard to know...

Thanks again Planter for the Blyxa!


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

Okay I took a look at your specs and photos. 

Your plants are just fresh from the farm that grow commercially with high levels of co2 (or emersed). They'll adjust to your tank in due time. That said, having no co2 is probably going to give you headaches in the future. You should be pumping co2 right now or algae will be next.

Also you see your hairgrass is getting shoots above the gravel line. Sign of insufficient co2. The key is light that is lower than co2. If we're talking deficiency, it's mostly co2 instead of light/nutrients. You want to reduce light/nutrients to prevent algae.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks CB1021

My gut was that it probably wasn't a nutrient deficiency this soon, particularly seeing as there is no CO2, ADA has loads of nutrients and the tank is so fresh.

I'm hoping that much of it is related to the plants simply adjusting to new environment.

CO2 would make sense. I've been really struggling with whether to introduce pressurized CO2 right away. In some sense I would like to balance light levels and plant growth/health balanced before going to CO2 and ferts. In other words... get this stabilized 'low-tech' then up lights, introduce CO2 and start dosing...

That way I have a good baseline to work from and a good 'feel' of my tank...

That being said... like you've suggested, it would make sense that my light levels are too high and CO2 is the limiting factor.

Is there any preference in adjusting overall brightness vs colour temp vs length of light period?

Attached is a screenshot of the light schedule I'm working with right now. 
The middle probably will be questionable. It suits our schedule... no one is in the basement then... it also was designed to allow some time for CO2 to stabilize and I had read in a reputable book that a 'siesta' period can help disrupt the energy cycle for algae.

Anyway... would be interested for opinions on how to adjust the lighting schedule if in fact its too high right now...

*See Pics For Current Light Schedule/Settings*

Thanks!


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I believe color temperature is not that important. Intensity and duration are usually the main factors for driving growth. I've never used those lights before but from what I understand they are powerful. Sorry I really can't help with the settings but most posts I've read on other forums have folks running these fixtures at 50 percent or less in high tech co2 setups. 

There is nothing wrong with adding co2 with low light setups. If the light is low you wouldnt have to worry to much about adding high concentrations of co2. The margin for error is much greater with less light. Much easier to balance. 

You also may find that you won't need to dose ferts or perform large weekly waterchanges with the Ada soil right away. Although you should be doing them now until the tank cycles. I suspect you would have more luck with co2 now. 

Then once you add the more demanding plants you can add / adjust the light / co2 / ferts if you find you need to. Just an option to consider. 

I've tried doing this before where I've setup a low light tank with the intention of allowing the tank to mature and letting the plants establish. I found myself too impatient i simply didnt want to wait. I ended up adding co2 about 2 months in.

Light drives everything. less light means less co2 less ferts and less water changes. Easy to dial in and maintain. If Algae does appear in a setup like this you can usually spot it early and deal with it easier as well. 

Low light plants also love co2.


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

I'd also add CO2 now if that's your long-term plan. It changes everything so what you learn without it may not actually end up being all that useful if you end up tweaking the lights and ferts.

Of course if you're interested in a non-CO2 tank, that's fine too and what you learn now will certainly help.

The advantage of starting with everything now and scaling back (rather than ramping up as you're doing) is that you get to find out what is possible in terms of plant health and growth. When you know what's possible, you can cut back to what's desirable and manageable.

In my opinion, ramping up leaves you guessing as to what might be wrong whenever a problem comes up. Too much of this? Too little of that? Multiple issues?


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Thank to you both! Very helpful.

I will definitely scale back lighting intensity and go to CO2 sooner rather than later. It does make sense to see whats possible, then scale back... and admittedly, I'm not the most patient guy in the world either...

But yes, hoping that the ADA holds up as far as nutrients go for a little while... One of the reasons I've held back from CO2 is I'm not fully researched/comfortable on the fert dosing either... I'd hate to ramp that up and then totally fudge the fert part.

I'm away for a few days now on work, will scale back lighting to 50% then see about finalizing my CO2 setup upon return through next week.

Thanks again guys!


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

So as I did a water change before heading off on work for 3-4 days... I saw this!

Pearling... 




Watch through for a small video update of the tank...

Man what a thing of beauty to see for the first time. Hadn't expected to until I started CO2 and really pumping high-light, but maybe that was just my naivety...


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

Damaged stems or stems that have recently been cut will do this. Also after a WC aerated water sometimes sit on the plants giving the impression of pearling. Iooking at the video it doesn't look like it's pearling to me. My plants do this when I trim them or on the leaves/stems get damaged.

Pearling only tells you that the water is fully saturated in o2. It doesn't necessarily mean that all of the plants are growing. 

I could be wrong though.


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

I thought it was probably too good to be true... That would make more sense!


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

So happy for you to see a new event unfold. We all need that, a sense of stoke!


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Crap. Away in business. Not back until tomorrow evening. Face timed with my wife... eleocharis is starting to yellow pretty significantly, myriphyllum is starting to brown a lot too. Despite it looking good just two days ago...
I turned down the lights a bit before I left but not by a tonne... really wish I could get back sooner!


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Home from a 4 day biz trip... and some good news bad news.
Good news... Tank is cycling rapidly now..

Tuesday parameters:
Ammonia - 1.5ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm

Todays parameters
Ammonia - .5ppm
Nitrite - 2ppm
Nitrate - 5ppm

Have found what I believe to be diatoms... see pics. Based on reading I've done, I understand that at this point its nothing to worry about.

Once the Nitrites come down I will be introducing my Ammano Shrimp & Siamese Algae eater already feasting away in my quarantine tank


BAD NEWS:
Plants are suffering... badly.
I'm having a hard time dialling in exactly what is going on with them.
I turned down the lighting probably 30% when I left and dosed a full dose of Flourish Advance, which came 1 day after dosing Flourish trace.

1/3 of my grasses are now brown/dying. The Monte Carlo which was looking amazing before I left, now appears to loosing leaves. 

Even the Myriophyllum which is arguably the easiest plant in the tank, has started to die back, whereas a few days ago it was thriving.

I'm leaning towards not enough light instead of too much light... 
Interestingly, the plants which are doing really well are the S Repens I have mid-way up the driftwood, closest to the light...

It seems things certainly got worse when I was gone after turning lights down. And I'm skeptical at this point its a lack of frets or CO2 given the changes over the last couples days.


Would really like some additional opinions/thoughts!


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## PlantedTank (Apr 15, 2016)

Hey everyone,

Real sorry for letting this journal lapse.

Lots has happened, including the birth of my second daughter. Which has eaten up a lot of time.

Here's a quick video update. The pearling is 10x more noticeable in person...

I am having an issue with GSA on my rocks and driftwood, otherwise everything else going well






18+ plant species
Amano shrimp (30)
Otto catfish
Cardinal tetra
Dwarf rainbow
Rummy nose tetra
Denison barbs
(1) Siamese algae eater

Pressurized co2
(2) FX6 Filters
MP40 
Neptune Apex
(3) Radion freshwater LED 
Eheim Surface Skimmer


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Any updates on this tank?


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