# Platy Acting Weird



## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Hello there,

I have 36G freshwater tank with 21 fish. Ammonia, nirtite and nitrate levels are fine. 79 degrees. 

Recently one of my platies (sunrise platy) started behaving very strange. Let me try to explain. It started hiding in between rocks and decorations. It seems to stay on one spot most of the time and its body is slightly directed upwards, sort of in a diagonal direction.

The only thing I stopped doing is putting salt into my aquarium. So far I've dobe two water changes (20% each) without adding any salt.

Any ideas what this can be. I don't want to lose this guy , he has been with me since the beginning.

Thanks.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

What water conditioner do you use and when and how do you dose it? Is the water you added the same temperature as the tank water? How far apart were the water changes? Is it facing up or down? Are the fins closed and held against the body? 

Was it fine before this? Do you know how old the fish is? Has it been bitten or attacked?

Thx Hope I can help


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> What water conditioner do you use and when and how do you dose it? Is the water you added the same temperature as the tank water? How far apart were the water changes? Is it facing up or down? Are the fins closed and held against the body?
> 
> Was it fine before this? Do you know how old the fish is? Has it been bitten or attacked?
> 
> Thx Hope I can help


Thanks for responding AquariAM

1. Platy is male, yes he was fine all this time. Only in the past two days I noticed this behavior.
2.I use prime. the last two times i did water change I did not use water conditioner. I believe my system can handle slight ammonia increase. I was also told that it is not necessary to add water conditioner once the tank has been cycled and there is more than adequate filtration. I have two filters in one tank. That's more than enough IMO.
3. I always try to add water of the same temperature as the water in the tank. I might have two degrees variation here and there.
4.I do water changes every week. 20% each time.
All other fish are doing fine. Swimming as usual. no problems what so ever.
5. He is facing up.
6. His fins are not close to his body. It seems he is swimming hard to stay in one spot.
7. He is probably 4 months old.

Could this be a Swim Bladder Disorder?


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Extreme eye roll  @ whoever said you don't need water conditioner. You should always use it. Only if you're doing a 5% water change on non sensitive fish can you truly get away with it. 

That doesn't sound too severe. I think something has just stressed this fish severely. If it still reacts (ie you put your hand close to it and it moves away) normally, it should be ok. If it's not back to normal in 3 days or so you should worry or if it holds its fins in or it can't keep from staying at the surface. 

Doesn't sound like any actual condition right now.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

> Extreme eye roll @ whoever said you don't need water conditioner.


It was a guy with years of experience just like you 
What he said does makes sense a bit.The ammonia added through water change is not as critical as say fish waste or food waste. Moreover 20% water change without water conditioner is a far as my common sense would allow me to go. I mean if you do a 50% water change, then it will initially stress out fish a lot until the filtration catches up.

Anyhow, Now I am being paranoid because I stopped putting salt in my tank and I have a problem with a fish that never had problems before. I think i am just thinking too much LOL 



> That doesn't sound too severe. I think something has just stressed this fish severely.


Thank you. I will let you know in a few days if the fish got better.

So, no salt eh ???


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Just to clear it up, whoever told you not to use conditioner definitely was wrong. I will explain why:

1) Ammonia is not the only result of chlorinated water. First of all the chlorine is toxic to fish as it is to humans only much more so and they have to live in the water 24/7 whereas we just drink it once in a while. It'd be like spending hours or days in a room with toxic fumes. 

2) It isn't that ammonia is released into the water directly, it is a byproduct of the breakdown of the chlorine. As the chemical slowly dissolves ammonia is released into the water in far greater amounts than any fish would. You might be ok with the ammonia but your fish won't be so basically this is animal cruelty since you are knowingly exposing them to poison. 

3) Dechlorinator does not only dechlorinate, it takes out other compounds harmful to your fish that are present in municipal water. 

4) Stress is cumulative in fish as in humans. Just because you think it is only a little stress at a time (which may or may not be the case depending) over a period it builds up and the negative impact builds up. You may not kill your fish this way but you will shorten their lives and make them more prone to the diseases they commonly fight off but which may yet be present in your tank. 

5) Chlorine kills off beneficial bacteria in your aquarium (it is used in our water to kill off bacteria harmful to us but it does not discriminate) which means that any filtration you have, in addition to being bombarded by ammonia will also have diminished capacity because the bacteria will be dead/dying in some cases. You might be surprised doing some water tests.

So, ignore whomever and use the dechlorinator. 99% of the time if there's 1 guy who thinks he knows better than everyone else... he doesn't. 

As for the symptoms... is the fish eating normally? Sounds like parasites to me, probably internal but potentially an ectoparasite as well. If the fish does not eat vigorously at feeding time you are most likely dealing with an internal parasite, probably camallanus (look for a tiny red thread like worm protruding from the anus of the fish). 

Usually a lone fish hanging out in hiding not really swimming about too much is a sign of disease. I could be wrong though because I've never tried dosing my fish with chlorine for a protracted period.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

*be*

Cory thank you for your explanation; however, comments like this are unnecessary.


> You might be ok with the ammonia but your fish won't be so basically this is animal cruelty since you are knowingly exposing them to poison.


 and this


> I could be wrong though because I've never tried dosing my fish with chlorine for a protracted period.


If I knew all the things about fish maintenance I wouldn't be on this forum. No need to imply that I am cruel or what I do is cruel. You don't know me. Please don't generalize. Want to help do it in a constructive way  As far as it goes it is your word against a guy with 30 years of experience. I am usually open to suggestions from anyone. 
I appreciate the constructive part of your post. It was very detailed with tons of explanation.

You mentioned something about a parasite. What kind of treatment can I perform?

Thanks.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

*If I knew all the things about fish maintenance I wouldn't be on this forum. No need to imply that I am cruel or what I do is cruel. You don't know me. Please don't generalize. Want to help do it in a constructive way  As far as it goes it is your word against a guy with 30 years of experience. I am usually open to suggestions from anyone. 
I appreciate the constructive part of your post. It was very detailed with tons of explanation.
*

I don't know what planet all you people are from who are coming up all of a sudden wanting people to get on their knees and whisper gently then hug you when they give advice, but nobody's been rude to you whatsoever. I mean no offense here, but something needs to be said. You need to know chlorine is bad and that guy who told you that you never need to use water conditioner was not correct. Sure, it wont kill anything but is it good? No. Nobody's being mean. I am a bit. But nobody else is.


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

Indeed. As for your platy, i would treat it with melafix. From my experience, 70% of the time when my fish looks sick it is bacterial.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

> I don't know what planet all you people are from who are coming up all of a sudden wanting people to get on their knees and whisper gently then hug you when they give advice


You are being extreme here. I never asked anyone to get on their knees and give me a hug while gently whispering something in my ear. LOL 

I don't mind criticism just don't get personal. Try to be objective. Calling me cruel is a far cry.  I said that I was told that by a person with lots of years of experience who has dozens of fish tanks. I didn't come up with this method myself, I only followed advice of someone who;s been doing this stuff for years.



> You need to know chlorine is bad and that guy was not correct. Sure, it wont kill anything but is it good?


Chlorine is definitely not good for fish, no questions about that. The question is with 20% water change and a powerful filtration system, does chlorine have enough time to cause any real damage. Or is it converted almost immediately.



> I am a bit. But nobody else is.


That's fine. I am used to your antics 

Anyways lets try to get back to the topic.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

* The question is with 20% water change and a powerful filtration system, does chlorine have enough time to cause any real damage. Or is it converted almost immediately. *

Chlorine is not used by anything. It's chlorine. There's no biological system in an aquarium that can use it or convert it. It causes damage. The amount of time it would take chlorine to evaporate from your system I can't say. What makes it extra dangerous in Toronto tap water is that it's Chloramine; Chlorine+Ammonia linked together. Chloramine takes _much_ longer to evaporate and remains active in the water for longer causing much more damage. A water conditioner, like Prime, breaks the ammonia and chlorine apart. It knocks the chlorine out of the water faster and binds the free ammonia with an extra hydrogen ion to make ammonium which is less dangerous to fish but can still be converted to nitrite by your biofilter.

*That's fine. I am used to your antics  *


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

I am sorry if you misinterpreted my comments as being rude or if you feel that some of the things I say are unnecessary to you. 

To be clear though, I never called you cruel, I called animal cruelty, animal cruelty like calling a duck a duck. 

As for the second part you quoted, I can't even begin to imagine what you found offensive in that but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen people be extremely over-sensitive online and read insults into every line and I suspect that's it. If you don't view everyone as trying to attack you then you may be less offended by their attempts to help.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

> Chlorine is not used by anything. It's chlorine. There's no biological system in an aquarium that can use it or convert it. It causes damage. The amount of time it would take chlorine to evaporate from your system I can't say. What makes it extra dangerous in Toronto tap water is that it's Chloramine; Chlorine+Ammonia linked together. Chloramine takes much longer to evaporate and remains active in the water for longer causing much more damage. A water conditioner, like Prime, breaks the ammonia and chlorine apart. It knocks the chlorine out of the water faster and binds the free ammonia with an extra hydrogen ion to make ammonium which is less dangerous to fish but can still be converted to nitrite by your biofilter.


Thank You !!!!!!!!! Best response ever. Clear and to the point.  
I just always was under the impression that chlorine is also broken down by bacteria just like ammonia, I guess I was wrong. 



> o be clear though, I never called you cruel, I called animal cruelty, animal cruelty like calling a duck a duck.


No, you didn't but you implied that I am by


> his is animal cruelty since you are knowingly exposing them to poison.


How do you know that I am knowingly exposing them to poison? I don't know as much as you on this subject just like you might not know about risk factors for diabetes militus. 
I am not overly sensitive and I am not trying to read insult into every line. Perhaps, I misinterpreted your comment, it never happened to me before and I've been using internet and boards since early 90s.

Let's leave it at that.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

ALWAYS use a water conditioner unless you have a 5-10gallon pail you can fill with water and let sit for 2-4 days to naturally dechlorinate.

But like AquariAM said - chloramine takes longer to break down. You can get really good water conditioners for fairly cheap. I like Tetra's because it also neutralizes heavy metals.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Today my platy is worse than before. It hides in one spot in a vertical position. Facing the top of the aquarium. 

Not too sure what to do here.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

BettaBeats said:


> But like AquariAM said - chloramine takes longer to break down. You can get really good water conditioners for fairly cheap. I like Tetra's because it also _neutralizes heavy metals_.


As does Seachem Prime 
I used to use Tetra's because I thought it was better too but after doing lots of reading on water conditioners, the Tetra product, though certainly just as good as Prime, is not as concentrated, so you end up spending a lot more money on it. 250mL of Prime will last a 60 gal tank a year with weekly water changes @ the dose suggested on the bottle for chloramine.

*I am sorry if you misinterpreted my comments as being rude or if you feel that some of the things I say are unnecessary to you. (Cory) *

I wasn't saying that to you Cory I think you're great 

*Today my platy is worse than before. It hides in one spot in a vertical position. Facing the top of the aquarium. (Orochi) *

Sorry but this sounds like the fish is on it's way out. The odds are pretty bad when a livebearer starts to act like that, especially after a long period of lethargy. 
There's not much you can do. Make sure your nitrates are very low, keep the lights off to reduce stress and make the fish feel safe, make sure no fish are bothering it. 
It's not eating at all?


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

> It's not eating at all?


I think it ate yesterday but very little .

Yeah, it seems like he is going to a better place. 

What in the hell was it? A parasite, constipation problem, an air bubble trapped, or perhaps a swim bladder problem?

How can such things be prevented in the future?
What are the cures, if any?

This is what really frustrates me with this hobby. You can have optimal conditions and the right environment, you feed them and invest tons of time and money and yet they still die.


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## GuppiesAndBetta (Jul 27, 2009)

Its alright, sometimes the hobbyist will do all he or she can and the fish will still die. At least you tried to fix the problem.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

I don't know. If you have an exceptionally sharp knife you can do a low grade autopsy. You can at least see if it had any SEVERE liver issues, large parasites such as worms. Honestly though I think it's 99% likely you won't find anything.

Keep your water really clean and take the best care of your tank you can and just kind of write it off to '**** happens'. Sorry you lost (?) or are about to lose the fish.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Orochi said:


> I just always was under the impression that chlorine is also broken down by bacteria just like ammonia, I guess I was wrong.


Chlorine is an oxidizing agent. It reacts with organic matter and breaks it down. This is why it is used as a bleach and a disinfectant -- it breaks stain molecules into smaller, colorless ones, and damages bacteria to the point of killing them.

In your aquarium, it will react with any organic matter. Most of it will react with mulm, bacteria, etc, but unfortunately it can also injure your fishes' gills. Toronto water isn't very heavily chlorinated (about 1ppm at the source), so if you have a lot of plants and mulm and stuff in your tank, you can probably get away with doing small water changes without using water conditioners. However, this isn't advisable, because occasionally the water department has to increase the chloramine dosage to keep our drinking water safe. Also, dechlorinators aren't very expensive, so why take a chance? Even if there isn't much damage, every little bit adds stress.

All my tanks have plants, so I just use sodium thiosulfate which neutralizes chlorine and let the plants use the ammonia as fertilizer.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

bae said:


> Chlorine is an oxidizing agent. It reacts with organic matter and breaks it down. This is why it is used as a bleach and a disinfectant -- it breaks stain molecules into smaller, colorless ones, and damages bacteria to the point of killing them.
> 
> In your aquarium, it will react with any organic matter. Most of it will react with mulm, bacteria, etc, but unfortunately it can also injure your fishes' gills. Toronto water isn't very heavily chlorinated (about 1ppm at the source), so if you have a lot of plants and mulm and stuff in your tank, you can probably get away with doing small water changes without using water conditioners. However, this isn't advisable, because occasionally the water department has to increase the chloramine dosage to keep our drinking water safe. Also, dechlorinators aren't very expensive, so why take a chance? Even if there isn't much damage, every little bit adds stress.
> 
> All my tanks have plants, so I just use sodium thiosulfate which neutralizes chlorine and let the plants use the ammonia as fertilizer.


 I wonder what the odds are that Sodium thiosulfate can access the chlorine molecule when it is physically part of a larger molecule with ammonia? I would question whether the chlorine was available to mate with the thiosulfate without the presence of a further agent to first break the bond between the chlorine and the ammonia. I'm also fairly sure that ammonium can be used by plants as well as ammonia? Just making convo .


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

> I don't know. If you have an exceptionally sharp knife you can do a low grade autopsy. You can at least see if it had any SEVERE liver issues, large parasites such as worms. Honestly though I think it's 99% likely you won't find anything.
> 
> Keep your water really clean and take the best care of your tank you can and just kind of write it off to '**** happens'. Sorry you lost (?) or are about to lose the fish.


Thank you for your advise and support.  
I think I will stay away from doing an autopsy.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Thank you for your advise and support.
> I think I will stay away from doing an autopsy.


 no problem.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I can sympathize, anyways. I have lost some gorgeous healthy platies. 

I blamed myself for letting the nitrates get too high. But they weren't that high ever. So I may never know. I just try to keep the routine consistent, and the water quality consistently high, and when my luck is good, I'm happy.

I recently had a platy scratch himself on a rock, and I'm treating him for that. I am hopeful he'll pull through. He's one of my most gorgeous orange wag platies.

W


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Thanks Khuli, I didn't know you have platies  
I thought you only have loaches, corries and plecos.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

My favorite platy, the one who scratched himself, jumped out of his hospital tank, to his death. I think my cat got him. I didn't find the body.

It is possible that the insensitive cruel things that someone said about me on here, upset him so much that he comitted ritual platycide. 

:-(

W


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> My favorite platy, the one who scratched himself, jumped out of his hospital tank, to his death. I think my cat got him. I didn't find the body.
> 
> It is possible that the insensitive cruel things that someone said about me on here, upset him so much that he comitted ritual platycide.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that my friend.


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