# Cycling Question



## Glenn (Dec 28, 2008)

Have been grateful for the helpful suggestions since cleaning my 30 gallon aquarium AND adding to many new fish at once about one month ago.

Three deaths and many live births later things seem good. I set up a new 72 gallon bow front last Friday night. Will eventually move most fish to larger tank and keep the 30 gal one for fry.

As part of the new set-up, I spent a hefty amount on fluorite substrate since I have more professional lighting system and would like to try a planted tank. I was in a bit of a hurry and didn’t wash the gravel prior to putting it in the tank. Instructions said this wasn’t necessary since gravel was prewashed.

Once the tank was a set-up, in a few hours it became quite cloudy.

Next day it was white and cloudy – the cloudiness started to lessen slowly by day.

In the meantime, I received an order from Pets & Ponds incl a 2l bottle of cycle, which I proceeded to use according to instructions.

Things soon became cloudier and now it’s gone from cloudy white to slightly white/green cloudy.

There are no fish in tank yet, there’s been no food put in tank and filter system is brand new. There are plants from the 30g tank, but all other decorations are new. I haven’t put any food stuff in tank. I did a test today and balance is perfect:
pH: 8
nitrates: 0 ppm
ammonia:0 ppm

Does all sound normal so far? I’m thinking I could do a few things to help speed things along…

1. The bacteria filter in my 30 gal is due to be replaced so I could throw that in the filter for the 72 gal for a week or so
2. I could put a few fish in tank
3. I could do a 25% water change
4. I could add more cycle liquid one week after the 1st dose as per instructions on the bottle

… or would it be preferable to leave all alone?

After one week, does it make sense my test readings are what they are? I’m assuming I may see higher readings on some items in the next week or so followed by a decrease back to desirable levels as tank cycles… but since all seems fine now except for the cloudiness, I’m not sure at what point I should start adding fish or when tank might be cycled.

A few more possibly pertinent details
- there is no odour coming from tank in case that helps explain things
- temperature has been 76 degrees… have just increased to 80 degrees.

Thanks for any thoughts.


----------



## newbiefishfanatic (Dec 11, 2008)

i just setup and cycled a 75 gallon tank. i have read about cycling and i have learned the tank will not cycle unless there is debris/fish waste (aka ammonia) in the tank. it makes sense that there is no ammonia and no nitrites and no nitrates as you have not put in any ammonia to get things started. i suggest that you throw in the filter media from your 30 gallon into the 72 gallon to get the cycle started.

this is what i did...for 1 week i added quite a bit of flake food to the fishless tank each day. (i figured it was so big it could take quite a bit more food than the recommended "pinch of flake food" theory) i noticed my ammonia level rise to .25 over that week. i then got fed up at how slow things wwere going, so i "seeded" with a grungy, filth covered filter media from my well established 10 gallon tank. my tank cycled that week, and my ammonia only rose to 1ppm, then dropped to 0. i didnt measure ANY nitrites at all. i finally came online and started a thread saying "tank not cycling". someone suggested i test the nitrates, and lo and behold i had 10ppm nitrates. my tank had finished cycling! oh, i also put in abut a sandwich bag full of gravle from my 10 gallon. everything worked beautifully.

i can bet that if you use this method to cycle your tank, you can have fish in there immediately, as your ammonia and nitrites wont rise to toxic levels.

here are a couple of links for you...

http://www.algone.com/fishless_cycling.php
http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6432
http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6260
http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6331

im sure other ppl on this forum will have a lot of good input to share into this situation also. hope mine has helped!

ps-many ppl have told me that the cloudyness is a "bacterial bloom". but with nothing in your tank, i cant see that being the case. hopefully someone on here will know whats going on. 

pps-sorry if i overloaded with stuff you already knew. just trying to help!


----------



## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

Hi glen and welcome to GTA ..
It looks to me like you already know everything and sounds good .
If you do all your "I coulds" you may want to add a few live plants to help clean up .
everything sounds great to me ,I say go for it


----------



## Glenn (Dec 28, 2008)

Thanks!

There have plants in the new 72g plucked from the 30g since it was set up last Friday... so that should help.

A few moments ago I put a new carbon filter in my 30g and put the used one between the carbon & ammonia filters in the 72g so I'm hoping that'll speed things along. Will try a water change tomorrow.

I don't have a car as a rule but will be zip caring near a Big Al's and a few other aquarium stores in a week and a half... so an opportunity to buy more fish AND I want to reduce the # of fish in 30g, so that's the reason I'm hoping for some cycling action soon... and preferably a clear, non cloudy tank where I can actually see the plants that are in there!

Thanks again! Glen


----------



## Glenn (Dec 28, 2008)

I've never used substrate before only gravel which seems much cleaner, but wanted substrate in an effort to have a more natural look and to include plants. The instructions indicated that it had been washed and washing again wasn't absolutely necessary.

What I'm wondering is whether I should have cleaned it before putting in tank and whether I should be suctioning out the water with the hose by just skimming the substrate surface or whether I should jam the hose right down into the gravel. It seems like it may take the rest of my natural born life and endless water changes to get it clean if clean and clear is what the end result should be. Is it supposed to be a little muddy?

Is fish waste less likely to fall through the substrate unlike gravel? This is rather confusing and the cloudy look of the tank is also somewhat depressing given my sparkling gravel filled 30G.


----------



## daking (Mar 6, 2008)

*exactly*



Glenn said:


> I've never used substrate before only gravel which seems much cleaner, but wanted substrate in an effort to have a more natural look and to include plants. The instructions indicated that it had been washed and washing again wasn't absolutely necessary.
> 
> What I'm wondering is whether I should have cleaned it before putting in tank and whether I should be suctioning out the water with the hose by just skimming the substrate surface or whether I should jam the hose right down into the gravel. It seems like it may take the rest of my natural born life and endless water changes to get it clean if clean and clear is what the end result should be. Is it supposed to be a little muddy?
> 
> Is fish waste less likely to fall through the substrate unlike gravel? This is rather confusing and the cloudy look of the tank is also somewhat depressing given my sparkling gravel filled 30G.


 well I was going to start a new thread, but this hit my question right on the head! Gravel in my tank was crystal clear, now after replacing it with substrate (and after risingin it numerous times) the water is cloudy, endlessly cloudy. Should we just treat it as an extended cycle period? All I am going to do is wait. As hard as it seems, Im guna just wait


----------



## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

Gravel is substrate. Anything inorganic at the bottom of an aquarium is substrate.
The plants and bacteria need food. You could add a fish or two to the aquarium and watch them for stress because the plants and bacteria that you added need fertilizer and one way is with fish waste. If all goes well in 24 hours, then do tests for ammonia and nitrates and see if there are any readings. If the fish show stress or the ammonia is high then put the fish back into the other aquarium. If everything is okay then repeat with a few more fish for 24 hours, test and so on. When you get a reading for nitrates then the cycle should be close to complete. Also don't use ammonia absorbing filters because you want the plants and the bacteria to use up the ammonia. That is how the bacteria multiplies and cycles the tank. Try that and stay the course slowly and you should have a cycled tank in no time. Hopefully you have enough light on the 72g for the plants to grow and use up the nutrients. Good Luck and I hope this helps.


----------



## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Hm, I've never done a substrate tank myself but from the ones I've seen, they aren't cloudy.

There are different types of cloudy, algae bloom, bacteria bloom, suspended particles.

For suspended particles if you want to clear it fast you can add clarifier to to the water to clump the particles. Then it's just a matter of cleaning out the filter and maybe doing a light vacuum of the bottom. This cuts down the amount of washing I need to do with sand.

Just a thought.


----------



## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Glenn said:


> I've never used substrate before only gravel which seems much cleaner, but wanted substrate in an effort to have a more natural look and to include plants. The instructions indicated that it had been washed and washing again wasn't absolutely necessary.
> 
> What I'm wondering is whether I should have cleaned it before putting in tank and whether I should be suctioning out the water with the hose by just skimming the substrate surface or whether I should jam the hose right down into the gravel. It seems like it may take the rest of my natural born life and endless water changes to get it clean if clean and clear is what the end result should be. Is it supposed to be a little muddy?
> 
> Is fish waste less likely to fall through the substrate unlike gravel? This is rather confusing and the cloudy look of the tank is also somewhat depressing given my sparkling gravel filled 30G.


Can you put up a pic . I just did a tank with flourite and yes it was cloudy for a few days I did a couple of water changes about 50%each Then added clear all. The next day the Tank was clear.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 28, 2008)

Pat I'll see what I can do to post a pic.

I've been doing lots of research (post adding the flourite unwashed) to also understand how to clean it. My 1st clean with a vacuum pulled up all sorts of mud. After reading, it seems like it's ok to put the stuff in unwashed and to vacuum lightly without sticking the plastic tube into the substrate, since the finer particles appear to be part of the value.

I bought two new fish and put them in, so now they're the only inhabitants. The tank is still sufficiently cloudy that you wouldn't know they're there.

Also, some of the plants looks to be dying which would seem to negate the benefits of the substrate at the moment... although they may have been on their way out since they started in my 30g which I don't think has the proper plant lighting.


----------



## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

Glen, how are the fish doing? Are they looking well and showing no stress? If you are still running the tank at 80F you may want to lower the temperature a bit to 76F. That is if the type of fish don't need the higher temperatures. There is more oxygen available in lower temperatures than higher ones. If the plants get soft and mushy then remove the mushy parts as soon as you can. Hopefully the plants are getting the proper amount of light. What is the total wattage of the light on the 72 gal.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 28, 2008)

Hi Calmer (and others who have commented), there were no fish in aquarium until yesterday afternoon when I thought I better put a few in to speed cycling up so I trotted off to Wong's Aquarium, the nearest near me. I didn't see anything I liked until I spotted some beautiful lyre tail swordtails. Maybe not the best choice, but they're doing well so far... and by water readings are all ok.

The 72g is brand new and from Big Als. The lights that were recommended and purchased are fluorescents:
one glows blue - F28-T-BP
one glows white - 10,000K also labelled F28-T-BP

I put the temp down to 78C.

The tank is actually clearer today. It's still a little cloudy, but I can actually see the live plants now and they have clearly grown. What I thought might have been rot on plant leaves was some of the clay debris that got roused when I aggressively began vacuuming the substrate (which I'll avoid doing in the future). When I put the fish in last night, I couldn't see them. Now I can. When they're at the back of the tank, still hard to see them, but things are getting better so feel more hopeful. I'll keep you posted and hope to have some pictures up in awhile.


----------



## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

Okay that sounds great.  The lights seem to be 28 watts each so the total is 56w and the tank is 72 gal. If the lights are T5's then you probably have about 1 w/gal.
These are the low light plants that you probably can grow with your lights.
http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=1&filter_by=2


----------



## Glenn (Dec 28, 2008)

That's amazing! Thanks Calmer... this will be useful when I head back to Big Als in just over a week.

When making my purchase, I was deferring to a BA staff person who a district manager had recommended and I was spending over $1,000 on the whole system (as it turned out... decided to upgrade once I saw my options and went for a bow front).

I talked to the sales guy about wanting plants and getting a decent lighting system... and requested the fluorite substrate... and indicated I would head downstairs to actually get some plants as part of the purchase which I did and he rang in. Thus, I was going on faith that my lighting requirements would be quite obvious. I'm sensing that I might want to go a little higher in wattage to be more flexible in my plant choice to extend beyond low light requiring plants. If I’m heading back and decide to purchase new fluorescents, what would be a good wattage to buy to you think?

Thanks again – most appreciated!


----------



## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

Your welcome 
If you look here they have the plants categorized by light requirements. 
http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_cat.php?category=1
If you get 2w/gal then you should be able to grow most of the medium category plants. Over 2w/gal then you are getting into needing co2 which isn't a bad thing but an extra expense. Here's a link to big Al's so you can see what there is: http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp17943/cl0/fluorescentstriplight?viewType=Category
Hope that helps


----------

