# WTF? Alcohalismis a long term disability for pay checks?



## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/09/17/alcoholic-benefits.html

The hell? mad:

I heard this while listtening to the John Oakley show on AM640 and could not sleep when I heard that. WTF!? I can understand if you lost your sight due to a diesease or an industrial accident with limb loss or such but alcohalism?

I don't think anyone put a hand gun to them, loaded magazine, racked the slide, chambered a round, and let the ojive glide a short distance into them if they did not drink. Grrr...

I agree with what I heard on the showfrom some sobber former alcohalics that called in that they took charge of thier lives and sought help when they could not do it themselves. I'm all for support groups to help them out but long term disability (according to the show is ~welfare x 2 payout IIRC. Never looked into this as I've never collected welfare or long term disability before).


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Alcoholism is considered a disease, so why not? I seriously doubt anyone chooses to become dependent on alcohol, let alone destroy their liver or eyesight.

You might as well argue that obesity is the same page and that they could "just stop eating". Well, I'd say again - it is a disease.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

it runs badly in my family...  I rarely drink, and even if I do, I don't drink much. 

They say that it really changes the brain as well, it changes thinking and understanding of things so. I wish I could get my family members to cut back or stop but it's not that easy. :/ 

However.. None of them have gotten disability, they all make sure they get to work and things like that.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Phooey! I'm sick and tired of people looking for an excuse or somebody else to blame for the bad choices they made in life. Whether it's booze, drugs, gambling, or whatever. The fact that AA works is proof that you can choose to steer your life in the right direction, even if you need help. Sorry I see no helpless victims here.

Look at it this way: Take the picture of the cute little turtle in Cid's signature, and substitute it with a bottle of Jack Daniels of something.

"Will you still want him:
When he's destroyed your liver?
When he's ruined your eyesight?
When he made you loose your job?
Responsibility is calculating the consequenses of our actions"

End rant


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## vrb th hrb (Feb 20, 2010)

it's not as easy as you'd think man, some people can just put down the bottom and walk away, like my father did, for many it's not that easy

my grandfather was an alcoholic, and my mother tried to save him but it was too late. 

it is a disease and should be treated as such.


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

Alcoholism is a disease, just like bad spelling.


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## ryno1974 (Dec 6, 2009)

It may be a difficult thing to kick, but it is not a disease. It is a choice. A bad choice, but a choice none the less. 

People should not qualify for benefits because of their bad choices in life. They need to take responsibility for their actions.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Its an addiction not a disease IMO. Like smoking or an eating disorder. Addictions can ruin your life and the people around you. Mental illness is a huge issue as well. if we as a society could concentrate and spend out funds $$ on understanding and controlling or fixing these issues we would have less need for jails or homeless shelters.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

OOh, a lot of people (e.g. non-internet, real experts) would disagree with a lot of you on a lot of what you said there. Diseases are diseases, be it of the flesh or of the mind, and they have to be dealt as such. 

An addiction is a disease - yes, it may have been brought on by poor choices, but that doesn't preclude it from necessitating or deserving treatment. Nor does that mean that it is only based in the "mind" - it's also physiologically entrenched into individuals. Congrats and bravo to those that can give up smoking or alcohol or whatever cold-turkey. For everyone else that struggles with it, they need to get help, or they will just continue to have problems and be a further burden to everyone around them.

And eating disorders? Definitely diseases. If you think that girl puking her guts out after binging on ridiculous amounts of food or abstaining from eating anything two or three days in a row because her 5'4" 65 lb frame looks too fat isn't diseased, you're sorely mistaken. Is it her fault that everyone and everything around her reinforces the idea that to be accepted and look good you have to be thin?

And not all people who are in jail or homeless are addicts.

Yes, everyone has free will and so people should be accountable for their actions. But if they make the "wrong" choices, does that mean that they should be cut off from the social safety net? Absurd. Ever broken your arm because you weren't playing safe as a kid? Too bad for you kiddo, shouldn't have been playing. Deal with it yourself. 


/rant


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I was going to write something else, but then I read Eric's post.

Well, I agree. Well written.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I said less need for jails. Most jails are filled with drug addicts or drug dealers or mentally ill. killers, rapist....

Anorexia is a mental illness no? self perception or reality is off with that person.

I have a real inflammatory question: If people are born gay or straight then are pedophiles born that way as well?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

TBemba said:


> I said less need for jails. Most jails are filled with drug addicts or drug dealers or mentally ill. killers, rapist....


Really? I'd like to see where you get that idea. I would be willing to bet you that the majority in jails are NOT drug addicts or mentally ill.



TBemba said:


> Anorexia is a mental illness no? self perception or reality is off with that person.


A mental illness is still a disease, and should be treated as such.



TBemba said:


> I have a real inflammatory question: If people are born gay or straight then are pedophiles born that way as well?


Does it matter? They're still pedophiles. Stay on topic, or or this thread gets locked.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Well explain to me who are all those people in jail for then?

I am unfamiliar with the penal system and do not have an understanding of who is getting locked up.

*addiction *Wikipedia

Historically, addiction has been defined with regard solely to psychoactive substances (for example alcohol, tobacco and other drugs) which cross the blood-brain barrier once ingested, temporarily altering the chemical milieu of the brain.
Many people, both psychology professionals and laymen, now feel that there should be accommodation made to include psychological dependency on such things as gambling, food, *sex*, pornography, computers, video games, internet, work, exercise, idolising, watching TV or certain types of non-pornographic videos, spiritual obsession, cutting and shopping .....

*Disease *Wikipedia
A disease is an abnormal condition affecting the body of an organism. It is often construed to be a medical condition associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1][2][3] It may be caused by external factors, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal disfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases. Ecologically, disease is defined as maladjustment of a body with environment.
In humans, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections. Isolated symptoms, *deviant behaviors*, and atypical variations of structure and function, while in other contexts and for other purposes these may be considered distinguishable categories. A diseased body is quite often not only because of some dysfunction of a particular organ but can also be because of a state of mind of the affected person who is not at ease with a particular state of its body.
Death due to disease is called death by natural causes.There are four main type of of disease: pathogenic disease, deficiency disease, hereditary disease, and physiological disease.

Why do you have such a bad feeling towards pedophiles? Are they not sufferers or a Disease ? I don't like them nor do I like rapist, murderers but they are afflicted sole no? Does not wanting to discuss issues that effect us as a society help us as a society?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Addiction and alcoholism are not necessarily the same thing.

Use google. Read up on alcoholism. 

It is more than just an addiction. It is a genetic, chronic condition. Not everyone who abuses or misuses alcohol is an alcoholic.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

TBemba said:


> Its an addiction not a disease IMO. Like smoking or an eating disorder. Addictions can ruin your life and the people around you. Mental illness is a huge issue as well. if we as a society could concentrate and spend out funds $$ on understanding and controlling or fixing these issues we would have less need for jails or homeless shelters.


+1

I choose to be addicted to coffee, booze, porn, whatever. I can quit it if I want, though it may take more willpower than I have of myself, hence I may stay addicted if I have no help.

A disease must be treated by medical or phsychiatric technology, which I have no power over the effectiveness of.

If alcholism is a disease, then it's the only disease caused by a substance that simply could cure the disease if NOT ingested. Remove the booze. Lock it up. Cured!


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## Windowlicka (Mar 5, 2008)

There are many either simplistic, flippant or simply naive views being aired here, and posted by people who have obviously not witnessed and/or been directly affected by the effects of chronic alcohol (/substance) abuse.

I encourage these posters to witness the effects first hand, _then_ formulate their opinion. I have no doubt that many of these responses will then be very different.

Cid - I hear you. I have family members (present and passed) who suffered from alcoholism (and the rest of us who suffered _from the effects_ of alcoholism). My wife's family was divided when the 5 kids were very young because of the same problem.

As for "lock up the booze, eradicate the problem"? Ask my wife how she'd come home from school as a 6/7 year old girl, then go straight to the fridge to check the stock of booze so she'd have a 'barometer' for the kind of mood her father would likely be in. See if she believes in that philosophy.

I personally have felt compelled to follow this thread today, but through morbid intrigue. I understand, appreciate and actively encourage the desire for healthy debate on a wide range of subjects, but poorly educated opinions on matters not directly related to the nature of the forum can be unnecessary and even potentially dangerous and hurtful - regardless of whether a poster's intentions are deliberately intended or accidental, the net result is the same. I personally fear that this thread is coming dangerously close to "offensive".


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## ryno1974 (Dec 6, 2009)

Windowlicka said:


> There are many either simplistic, flippant or simply naive views being aired here, and posted by people who have obviously not witnessed and/or been directly affected by the effects of chronic alcohol (/substance) abuse.
> 
> I encourage these posters to witness the effects first hand, _then_ formulate their opinion. I have no doubt that many of these responses will then be very different.
> 
> ...


I feel bad for anyone who is affected by any abuse - including alcohol.The reality is it has been deemed a disease to allow for insurance funding. It is not a disease, it is an addiction. They are different, but for some reason we have chosen to treat this particular one differently. Probably partly because the government actively participates in fueling it by collecting big tax $$ off of the industry.

I don't think anyone here is looking to offend or hurt anyone else, it is just a heated debate. I would hate to see someone leave over a thread they didn't like, but why not stop reading the thread if it is not up your alley? I have ditched many a thread over the years because i didn't like them. Dont think I ever left a forum because of it.


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

I think one of the contributing factors of alcoholism being a disease is how it actually affects your body, like your nerves. So like if an alcoholic were to not drink for a day or two their hands would be shaking, the alcohol abuse messes with the levels of sodium and potassium that basically make your nervous system work ... I'm sure someone could elaborate on this a lot better than I have ... just throwin it out there


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## AquaNekoMobile (Feb 26, 2010)

I do think and believe that it is an addiction. I faintly recall reading something about some very addicted gamblers spending all thier money at the slots and gaming tables try to claim that gambling is a diesase a while ago.



50seven said:


> +1
> 
> I choose to be addicted to coffee, booze, porn, whatever. I can quit it if I want, though it may take more willpower than I have of myself, hence I may stay addicted if I have no help.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2010)

Windowlicka said:


> There are many either simplistic, flippant or simply naive views being aired here, and posted by people who have obviously not witnessed and/or been directly affected by the effects of chronic alcohol (/substance) abuse.
> 
> I encourage these posters to witness the effects first hand, _then_ formulate their opinion. I have no doubt that many of these responses will then be very different.
> 
> ...


+1

excellent response


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I personally never attended to be hurtful or obtuse. I apologize if I have.

But I have seen addiction and disease ( my definitions) . I have never had to live it first hand and I could never say I understand totally.

I do think that us as a society need to treat everyone with compassion and try to put more effort into resolving or reducing these issues instead of remedying them with incarceration or turn a blind eye to the issues that plague society. 

The addict puts their addiction before anything else.

I do feel that people with diseases do get better treatment in society then Addicts.

But my grandfather never suffered months of agonizing bone cancer before it over came him because he was addicted to Cancer. He had the disease of cancer.

My Uncle died of Alcoholism (cirrhosis of the liver) he too suffered years before it over came him, he was addicted to Alcohol. He had the addiction of Alcohol.

Which was more devastating? My Uncle hands down. He not only left his family early, He left them years before he died ( very abusive and was never a father). He effected 2 sons that also have the addiction and destroyed a family and maybe generations to come.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Whatever your opinion is, the fact remains: alcoholism is considered a disease. It has been considered a disease since 1956 by the AMA and all mainstream thought - scientific or otherwise, agrees.

Alcoholism, whether you want to believe it or not, fits all the categories that define disease: identifiable symptoms and physical signs. The AMA goes a step further by defining five criteria that must be met: symptoms, chronicity, phases of progression, the chance of a relapse and the ability to be treated. Alcoholism meets all of these.

It isn't some classification to allow the government to keep booze legal, it is just, simply, a disease.

Unless one of you is going to step forward and tell me about how you became a doctor and now do extensive research on alcoholism, then I have to outright just tell you that you are wrong. It is no less of a disease than cancer, STD's or diabetes.

The research that HAS been done to the contrary aims to discredit it as a disease because of the ability of some former alcoholics to revert to controlled drinking. Since the 60's (and to present day) this has consistently been proven wrong, with much of the supporting evidence being faulty to begin with.

Even despite this, there are _no_ scientific arguments that alcoholism is not a disease simply because you can just "_not drink_". Why? Because that has no bearing on whether or not something is a disease.


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## ryno1974 (Dec 6, 2009)

Chris S said:


> Whatever your opinion is, the fact remains: alcoholism is considered a disease. It has been considered a disease since 1956 by the AMA and all mainstream thought - scientific or otherwise, agrees.
> 
> Alcoholism, whether you want to believe it or not, fits all the categories that define disease: identifiable symptoms and physical signs. The AMA goes a step further by defining five criteria that must be met: symptoms, chronicity, phases of progression, the chance of a relapse and the ability to be treated. Alcoholism meets all of these.
> 
> ...


I could honestly care less about this thread, but since you have told all of us we cant comment without providing medical degrees, what type of doctor are you? And how much extensive research have you done?

Have a good night everyone, I have had enough with this one


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I have no problem calling it a disease. You are 100% right I am 100% wrong.

Still doesn't change what it is


So on with what should we do about it?

What is YOUR ideas on a solution to this issue?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Whatever your opinion is, the fact remains: alcoholism is considered a disease. It has been considered a disease since 1956 by the AMA and all mainstream thought - scientific or otherwise, agrees.
> 
> Alcoholism, whether you want to believe it or not, fits all the categories that define disease: identifiable symptoms and physical signs. The AMA goes a step further by defining five criteria that must be met: symptoms, chronicity, phases of progression, the chance of a relapse and the ability to be treated. Alcoholism meets all of these.
> 
> ...


+1

I am definitely not doctor but I do know more than a couple and two that work at the CAMH

Ignorance, intolerance, stereotyping and a couple other traits ..... those are definitely not diseases.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

ryno1974 said:


> I could honestly care less about this thread, but since you have told all of us we cant comment without providing medical degrees, what type of doctor are you? And how much extensive research have you done?


I'm a fish doctor.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

TBemba said:


> I have no problem calling it a disease. You are 100% right I am 100% wrong.
> 
> Still doesn't change what it is
> 
> ...


My only issue was the complete lack of empathy and the intolerance shown by some of the posts in this thread. I'm hoping that isn't an issue anymore!


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

I also did not intent to offend anyone; my apologies if any was taken. I have chosen personally to avoid alcohol completely, partly because my dad drank and had his own anger issues, which led to a very violent and messy family breakup. 

I agree that unfortunately "addicts" are very much looked down upon and rather we should show compassion, because these people need HELP to stop ruining their families and their bodies! (And if exposed to the same life circumstances, I could have ended up like that myself!)

I was taught however, that I am responsible for all of my actions, as well as the consequences of those actions. The only issue I have is when people want to blame someone else for their own mistakes.

If someone close to me were addicted like this, I would feel obliged to help, because usually they can't (or won't) change on their own. I feel bad especially for kids like Windowlicka's wife, having to live like that- somebody should have taken her dad aside and had a true man-to-man intervention. Unfortunately not enough people in this world want to love enough to be tough.


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## redrobster (Mar 3, 2010)

ryno1974 said:


> It may be a difficult thing to kick, but it is not a disease. It is a choice. A bad choice, but a choice none the less.
> 
> People should not qualify for benefits because of their bad choices in life. They need to take responsibility for their actions.


Well said


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## KevD (Mar 2, 2008)

Interesting topic and discussion. As a former alcoholic and hard drug addict, I can see both sides of the conversation. I'm not sure I'd classify my substance abuse as a disease. It was more of a lifestyle choice. I always went by the motto from the title of an old Led Zep tune in that it's "nobodies fault but mine" for the condition I'm in. I was also a functioning addict meaning that I could work and do all the things I would normally do, just in a different frame of mind than the rest of my co-workers, etc.
I was able to kick both habits without help from any so-called professionals. It's really just a matter of will power and wanting to live a longer, healthier life. At least that's my experience. I've been clean and sober for over 15 years now 
Unfortunately, all that past substance abuse is starting to catch up with me. You do pay a heavy price if you do decide to go that route.

Just my 2 cents....FWIW.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Good for you Kev!


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## KevD (Mar 2, 2008)

Thanks Cid  I thought a personal perspective on substance abuse might be a good addition to the discussion.


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## xr8dride (Feb 24, 2009)

I find it fascinating that in a fish forum a thread such as this could gain more attention and comments than that for which this site was intended.

I will add my 2 cents and sum it up as a disease.

I had a difficult time with alcohol myself and ended up with an impared driving charge...The results of being found guilty, $1000 fine (yes Gov needs funding), a one year suspension, but more importantly, a drivers rehbilitation class. If you are unaware of what that is, it is first an assessment of your alcohol addiction, then education of the effects based on that assessment. You cannot have your license reinstated without the rehabilitation class...why? Because your license is put under a Medical Suspension, you have a sickness which needs treatment.

This worked for me, it was over 5 years ago but it brought me to the realization that i had a problem. I can now go to functions and have a drink or two without neededing to consume the whole bar.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

There are two stages of alcoholism. One is a physical dependency, and another is the mentality, or the reaching for the bottle to drown out emotional pain.


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