# Dry Ferts: Chelated Iron



## Tabatha

I contacted Hydrotech Hydroponics for dry ferts. They don't have chelated iron but they have something called chelated micronutrient mix. Can someone with more experience than I, take a look and let me know if this would be sufficient iron/micornutrient? Also, is the amount of copper in this mix, safe for shrimp?

EDTA Chelated Micronutrients

* iron 5%
* manganese 2%
* zinc 0.4%
* copper 0.1%

DTPA Chelated Micronutrients

* iron 2%

Non-chelated Micronutrients

* boron 1.3%
* molybdenum 0.06%

Chelate

* EDTA (minimum) (ethylene diamine tetra-acetate) 42%
* DTPA 9minimum) (diethylene triamine pentaacetate) 13%

http://www.hydrotechhydroponics.com/


----------



## JamesG

Hey tabatha, I would be careful with it as everything I have read says shrimp can be seriously injured by the copper. I used to remember the reason for this, i assume it has something to do with displacing another ion in some life process. Either way I would be careful about using it, possibly try reading some posts on petshrimp.com about it.

Also try HomeGrown Hydroponics for good dry mixes. I have a variety of small tubs of dry mix that last forever. You can guess who usually buys their ferts, but they do know their stuff.


----------



## Tabatha

LOL Oh yeah, I know who buys their stuff besides gardeners ;D

Seachem's Flourish Trace also contains copper; 0.0032% I'm just wondering what the "_safe_" dosage is, if there is one.


----------



## JamesG

Yea it is too bad I no longer have access to the primary research papers I was able to get for free during my undergrad. I will look around for this, I have been curious myself.


----------



## Darkblade48

Hey Tabatha,

What you are looking for is a "micronutrient" mix that is part of the "6 pack". It's what I have been using for chelated iron and it's worked fine for me for years.

As for the danger of copper to shrimp, I am unsure what level is considered safe for inverts, as I've never kept shrimp. If JamesG could remember the article/some keywords, I could look them up with my university access.


----------



## Tabatha

Hi Darkblade, thanks for your post.

I'm actually trying to get the full gamut of ferts, not just micros. I've been going through Tom Barr's forum but they're so advanced they don't realize that if a beginner doesn't have the short forms written down or memorized, it makes it much more confusing 

I have Seachem's Flourish, Excel, Iron and now Tropica Plant Nutrition liquid. Unfortunately, all are micro nutrients. I needed to get Tropica Plant Nutrition + (plus), which they didn't have or Seachem Nitrogen, Phospherus and Potassium (they only had 2 of the 3). 

I initially wanted to get the dry ferts but at this point, it's beyond my comprehension (am I the only one?).

The reason why I wanted to get the macro nutrients is because I've been dosing micros every other day yet my Blyxa is melting despite the fact the large and small are in bud. I've also been doing more research and the fact that we have high light and CO2 demand more ferts.

Cheers,


----------



## Darkblade48

Hey Tabatha,

Dry ferts aren't too difficult to understand; there are several systems of dosing, i.e. EI (estimative index, ala Tom Barr) or PPS (ala Edward over at APC).

Both methods have their pros and cons, it simply depends on what you want to do.

In terms of ferts, if you are looking at Hydrotech Hydroponics or Homegrown hydroponics, they have a "6 pack" of nutrients. You simply need the following from them:

Potassium sulfate (K2SO4)
Potassium nitrate (KNO3)
Potassium dihydrogenphosphate (KH2PO4)
The chelated-iron micro mix

The other nutrient that you can pick up (i.e. at Shopper's Drug Mart, the grocery store, etc) is Magnesium sulfate (MgSO4) also known as epsom salts (chemists, don't go nuts on the fact that magnesium sulfate is sold as the heptahydrate, I know this )

From there, you can use the measurements that either the EI or PPS system requires, or you can calculate the required amounts using Chuck Gadd's nutrient calculator (found here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm)

Hope that helps,


----------



## Tabatha

DB, thank you so much! You seem to have a much better grasp on ferts than I do!

If you read my first post in this thread, my initial question was; can shrimp handle 0.1% copper (in Hydrotech's chelated micronutients) without any ill effects.

At home, I'm on a Mac  however, my nitrites have consistently been >0.03, PH has consistently been 7.5 until this past week when it seems to have dropped to 7.3 after CO2 has been running smoothly for the past week. 

GH 12
KH 8
CO2 has finally hit 14 mg/l

Lighting: Life-Glo & Power-Glow T5HO
CO2 @ 3 bps
Heavily planted

Did I miss anything?


----------



## Darkblade48

Hi Tabatha,

No, it's just that I enjoy the rigours of chemistry 

As I mentioned, I am unsure whether shrimp can handle the 0.1% copper, as I've never kept shrimp before. One would imagine that as long as you aren't dosing too heavily, that the shrimp will be fine....of course Murphy's law then takes effect and you may have a disaster! 

I'm surprised your nitrites are consistently over 0.03 ppm; if a tank has been set up and cycled properly, there should consistently be 0 ppm of nitrites. Also, what kind of test kit are you using to get such accurate readings? The AP test kit I use only measures 0.25, 0.50, 1.0, 2.0 and 5.0 ppm.

Regarding your CO2, it should be fine for now, if you are somewhat handy or know someone handy, you could try building a DIY CO2 drop checker to monitor your CO2 levels (rather than measuring kH and pH constantly). I wrote an article detailing the process in the articles subsection over at PriceNetwork (shamless self promotion here!)


----------



## Tabatha

Darkblade48 said:


> Hi Tabatha,
> 
> No, it's just that I enjoy the rigours of chemistry


Gawd bless ya!



Darkblade48 said:


> I'm surprised your nitrites are consistently over 0.03 ppm;


Bah, did I type that in wrong? Sorry, >0.3! Less than 0.3 - we're using a Tetra kit which is purportedly to be good but there's another kit I'd like to get (the name alludes me at the moment).



Darkblade48 said:


> Regarding your CO2, it should be fine for now, if you are somewhat handy or know someone handy, you could try building a DIY CO2 drop checker to monitor your CO2 levels (rather than measuring kH and pH constantly). I wrote an article detailing the process in the articles subsection over at PriceNetwork (shamless self promotion here!)


Actually, the paint ball kit came with a monitor, this past week it's finally stayed green. We had a lot of problems with the kids at the paint ball place not filling the canister properly and venting it all over the place AFTER filling it (A-holes!). We've found somewhere else to have it done now.

Since we have a tank in the living room and the office, we'd like to create a central CO2 system with one canister in the basement supplying all the tanks which means we'll eventually sell the paint ball system. Eventually


----------



## Darkblade48

Tabatha, why are you still up at 4:30 am (I could ask myself the same thing...)? 

Regarding the nitrites, I think many people will agree that anything over 0 ppm is potentially hazardous for fish; you may want to double check your levels with another person/another test kit.

Are you perhaps talking about Lamotte test kits? They are the holy grail of test kits, and cost a pretty penny (something like $36 for a refill test kit alone!).

Is the paintball CO2 system you got the one that comes as a package by Red Sea? I believe the package comes with a regulator, reactor and a drop checker (the "deluxe" comes with a solenoid, I believe). How is it working for you? I was thinking of going to pressurized, but was going to acquire the parts separately (I find it slightly cheaper that way).


----------



## Tabatha

Darkblade48 said:


> Tabatha, why are you still up at 4:30 am (I could ask myself the same thing...)?


I've already had my 7+ hours sleep.  I'm just chilling before I have to get ready for work.



Darkblade48 said:


> Regarding the nitrites, I think many people will agree that anything over 0 ppm is potentially hazardous for fish; you may want to double check your levels with another person/another test kit.


My nitrites my very well be 0. I mix tank water with chemicals and match the colour on the card. The lowest level possible according to the card, is >0.3 . Next weekend (or sooner) I'll get a better kit!



Darkblade48 said:


> Are you perhaps talking about Lamotte test kits? They are the holy grail of test kits, and cost a pretty penny (something like $36 for a refill test kit alone!).


Nope, it was one recommended by one of the gurus of planted tanks (can't remember who off the top of my head).



Darkblade48 said:


> Is the paintball CO2 system you got the one that comes as a package by Red Sea? I believe the package comes with a regulator, reactor and a drop checker (the "deluxe" comes with a solenoid, I believe). How is it working for you? I was thinking of going to pressurized, but was going to acquire the parts separately (I find it slightly cheaper that way).


Yup, that's the one! We got ours from Pets and Ponds, they didn't have the deluxe kit available so they gave us the solenoid for the same price (as the deluxe).


----------



## Tabatha

My bad, you were right about the test kit, Rex Grigg recommends the Lamotte http://www.rexgrigg.com/diy-reactor.htm#kit.

US$70.00! Wha!


----------



## Tabatha

*Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate*

I wasn't able to locate Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate on their website. Do you know for a fact that they carry it?

Also, what does this chemical do? This is the first time I've seen it. Will Google...

Okay, so it's a Fungicide... why would I use this in my tank? Algae?


----------



## Brian

Fungicide kills fungus, algicide kills algae


----------



## Tabatha

Brian said:


> Fungicide kills fungus, algicide kills algae


Well I know that, silly . My question is, why would I include this in my fert regime?


----------



## Brian

I'm just guessing by looking at his ingredients that the list provides the plants with sulfate which provides sulfur, nitrate which provides nitrogen, phosphate which provides phosphorus, potassium and iron.

The essential nutrients for plants to grow are nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium so I guess the Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate provides phosphorus?


----------



## Brian

Just a stab in the dark though, I hate chemistry... I can name you all the steps of the Calvin's cycle but I can barely do a simple equation and find the limiting reagent.


----------



## Tabatha

Brian, speak English please, I don't understand Latin! ;D

We'll be stopping by Hydrotech at some point this week so I'll take DB's advice and grab what he recommends. 

Maybe the Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate is to discourage algae??? I think DB was going to bed as I was getting ready for work...


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Here is a link to the hydroponic six packs ingredients:
http://www.hydroponics.com/nutrient/sixpack.html
OR I'll just paste it here:
# 1 CaNO3 Calcium Nitrate
# 2 K2SO4 Potassium Sulphate 
# 3 KNO3 Potassium Nitrate 
# 4 KH2PO4 Mono Potassium Phosphate 
# 5 MgSO4 Magnesium Sulphate (aka Epsom salt)
# 6 TE Trace elements (or Chelate Trace element)

You'll need to do a bit of matching to the name but I think you'll find all the ingredients here to match back to Tom Barrs' macro EI dosing regiment.

A word of caution here. The amount of Iron I don't think is a concern, but the amount of copper is a danger to the shrimps. However, I've heard of endless stories of people successfully getting away with this on big tanks. Their reason is that their plants would chew away the copper before it becomes harmful to the shrimps. However, ballance is a very important thing because if your plants can't absorb the copper and there is a build up in our 7 days cycle to water change. It will harm your shrimps.

I unfortunately, have had bad experience with 5G tanks where I kill off all the shrimp due to improper dosing.
There is a trick to Tom Barrs's method. It's because every planted tank is unique in it's nutrient requirements, hence the dosage varies from tank to tank. I have a hard time finding that balance.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Darkblade48

Tabatha said:


> My bad, you were right about the test kit, Rex Grigg recommends the Lamotte http://www.rexgrigg.com/diy-reactor.htm#kit.
> 
> US$70.00! Wha!


Yep, Lamotte test kits are expensive; I think I can get them for less than $70 through the university, but I'd have to ask again (last time I checked was 3 years ago).



Tabatha said:


> I wasn't able to locate Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate on their website. Do you know for a fact that they carry it?
> 
> Also, what does this chemical do? This is the first time I've seen it. Will Google...
> 
> Okay, so it's a Fungicide... why would I use this in my tank? Algae?


Sorry, I think they listed it as mono potassium phosphate (this is an incorrect chemical name). I know for a fact that they do carry it however. As far as I know, it is not a fungicide nor an algaecide (I suppose, unless it is used at extremely high and abnormal concentrations?). At the concentration we use it in aquaria, it will be to supply the plants with phosphates.



Brian said:


> I'm just guessing by looking at his ingredients that the list provides the plants with sulfate which provides sulfur, nitrate which provides nitrogen, phosphate which provides phosphorus, potassium and iron.
> 
> The essential nutrients for plants to grow are nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium so I guess the Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate provides phosphorus?


Almost entirely correct. The potassium sulfate provides sulfur and potassium, the potassium nitrate provides potassium and nitrates, and the potassium dihydrogen phosphate provides potassium and phosphorus in the form of phosphate. The iron is not found in potassium dihydrogen phosphate, this is found in the trace mix.



Tabatha said:


> We'll be stopping by Hydrotech at some point this week so I'll take DB's advice and grab what he recommends.
> 
> Maybe the Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate is to discourage algae??? I think DB was going to bed as I was getting ready for work...


Yep, you'll need the four things I listed, plus a bag of epsom salts from the grocery store if you don't already have it (for the same price as Hydrotech, you can pick up a 2 kg bag, or for a few bucks more, a 4 kg bag; you can even take a soothing bath if you want )

And yes, I was going to sleep as you were getting up for work 



Zebrapl3co said:


> Here is a link to the hydroponic six packs ingredients:
> # 1 CaNO3 Calcium Nitrate
> # 2 K2SO4 Potassium Sulphate
> # 3 KNO3 Potassium Nitrate
> # 4 KH2PO4 Mono Potassium Phosphate
> # 5 MgSO4 Magnesium Sulphate (aka Epsom salt)
> # 6 TE Trace elements (or Chelate Trace element)


In terms of the 6 pack, you will need #2, 3, 4 and 6 (you can pick up 5 at the grocery store).



Zebrapl3co said:


> You'll need to do a bit of matching to the name but I think you'll find all the ingredients here to match back to Tom Barrs' macro EI dosing regiment.


IIRC, these are exactly the chemicals that are used in Tom Barrs' EI dosing regime.



Zebrapl3co said:


> A word of caution here. The amount of Iron I don't think is a concern, but the amount of copper is a danger to the shrimps. However, I've heard of endless stories of people successfully getting away with this on big tanks. Their reason is that their plants would chew away the copper before it becomes harmful to the shrimps. However, ballance is a very important thing because if your plants can't absorb the copper and there is a build up in our 7 days cycle to water change. It will harm your shrimps.


It's good to know this! I was thinking of keeping some shrimp, but now I'll have to rethink my plan. I wasn't aware how sensitive shrimp are to copper levels. However, you have to remember that Tom Barrs' EI regime relies on the fact that you are providing an *excess* of nutrients for the plants so that they never run out, and that each weekly water change eliminates the chance of any excessive buildup of nutrients.

Perhaps a better (and safer) way for shrimp would be to use Edward's PPS-Pro solution? I'm currently testing it out on my 2.5 g nano (no shrimps though, I'm pumping it full of CO2, my drop checker is constantly yellow  )


----------



## Brian

Well if you don't add the trace elements, I don't think it would be a problem for shrimp. Iron is usually only needed for red plants anyways?


----------



## Tabatha

*Okie Dokie, What Now Pokie?*

I printed off Tom Barr's EI dosing strategies from his website and read it on the way to the hydroponics store (not quite finished yet). I'll have to read it a few time to completely comprehend.

Picked up the six pack of chemical nutrients from Hydrotech. The amount per liter is so small, I now understand why you should own a scale and thank gawd I have one (for food (nothing else!!!)) which does grams.

I can't remember, can I mix all the macro nutrients in one container or do I need to mix them all up separately?

This past weekend we purchased Tropica's micronutrients so we'll use those up first, not sure if we'll use the hydroponics trase b/c of the copper content.

I'll be at work by 5:30 a.m. tomorrow!


----------



## Brian

Does it say how much copper it contains? If you take the amount it tells you and compare it to Flourish Excel and if it is less than Excel, you can use it as a lot of shrimp keepers of nano tanks still dose with the excel and have no ill effects.

In regards to mixing, I'm pretty sure you can mix everything together as its all going into the same tank... I think its the same as PMDDs.


----------



## Tabatha

The amount of copper in this trace is considerably more than Flourish; .0001 compared to 0.10% in hydroponics! I don't think I'll take the chance but rather use it on my terrestrial plants.


----------



## Darkblade48

Tabatha said:


> I printed off Tom Barr's EI dosing strategies from his website and read it on the way to the hydroponics store (not quite finished yet). I'll have to read it a few time to completely comprehend.
> 
> Picked up the six pack of chemical nutrients from Hydrotech. The amount per liter is so small, I now understand why you should own a scale and thank gawd I have one (for food (nothing else!!!)) which does grams.


A scale that does in tenths of a gram would be better, but it's OK 

You may also want to read up on Edward's PPS-Pro system, it all depends on what you want to do with regards to plants (I think there's an article over at APS under "Advanced topics").



Tabatha said:


> I can't remember, can I mix all the macro nutrients in one container or do I need to mix them all up separately?


You can mix all the macro nutrients (potassium sulfate, potassium nitrate, potassium dihydrogen phosphate and magnesium sulfate) all in one container. You should not mix the trace elements with the macro elements, as the chelated iron can precipitate with the potassium dihydrogen phosphate rendering it unusable by plants. This is also why Tom Barrs' EI dosing method recommends you alternate between macros and micros each day.



Tabatha said:


> This past weekend we purchased Tropica's micronutrients so we'll use those up first, not sure if we'll use the hydroponics trase b/c of the copper content.
> 
> I'll be at work by 5:30 a.m. tomorrow!


Might as well use up what you have first  Also, 5:30 might be the time I'll be going to sleep again 



Brian said:


> Well if you don't add the trace elements, I don't think it would be a problem for shrimp. Iron is usually only needed for red plants anyways?


No, plants need the trace elements such as iron, copper, molybdenum, zinc, manganese, etc. Red plants need more iron than green plants, but all plants require micros.



Brian said:


> Does it say how much copper it contains? If you take the amount it tells you and compare it to Flourish Excel and if it is less than Excel, you can use it as a lot of shrimp keepers of nano tanks still dose with the excel and have no ill effects.


Regarding the Tropica Nutrients, I found the following:

Tropica plant fertilizer, not +,

K .79%
Mg .39%
S 1.01%
B .004%
Cu .006%
Fe .07%
Mn .004%
Mo .002%
Zn .002%

Regarding this, I would assume that there would be 0.006% copper in the entire solution of the Tropica liquid nutrients.

The micronutrients mix from the Hydrotech Six pack is as follows:

EDTA Chelated Micronutrients
* Iron 5%
* Manganese 2%
* Zinc 0.4%
* Copper 0.1%
DTPA Chelated Micronutrients
* Iron 2%
Non-chelated Micronutrients
* Boron 1.3%
* Molybdenum 0.06%
Chelate
* EDTA (minimum) (ethylene diamine tetra-acetate) 42%
* DTPA 9minimum) (diethylene triamine pentaacetate) 13%

Then, we look at another micronutrient mix that many people use, the CSM+B mix (this is a standard micronutrient mix called "CSM" with the addition of boron, another plant micronutrient). Its composition is as follows:

CSM+B Mix
Fe 6.53%
Mn 1.87%
Mg 1.40%
Zn 0.37%
Cu 0.09%
Mo 0.05%
B 1.18%
Co 0.00%

Many people use the CSM+B plant mix with no ill effects, I can try to find some shrimp keepers to see if they have observed any ill effects (I believe Tom Barr uses the CSM+B plant mix in his EI regime, as does Edward in his PPS regime).

One cannot simply compare the dosage of Tom Barrs' EI dosing to Excel; Excel is a completely different chemical (supposedly a glutaraldehyde derivative) and would have a completely different toxicity to shrimp than heavy metals.



Brian said:


> In regards to mixing, I'm pretty sure you can mix everything together as its all going into the same tank... I think its the same as PMDDs.


See above, you should not mix micros with macros.


----------



## Darkblade48

Tabatha said:


> The amount of copper in this trace is considerably more than Flourish; .0001 compared to 0.10% in hydroponics! I don't think I'll take the chance but rather use it on my terrestrial plants.


It's amusing how fast more replies are generated while I'm still typing up my previous replies! 

I think it would be inappropriate to compare "brand name" nutrients from your normal micronutrient dry-mix that could be picked up for cheaper.

In the end, what you are looking at is not necessarily the percentage of copper, but the amount that ends up in the water column.

Since Flourish only has 0.0001% copper (that's a lot of zeros), it means you would have to add a lot more to get the same amount of copper in the water as a small amount of dry-mix would add.

There are some people that are pro for the name brand micros, but others that are against it, both because of the (sometimes) prohibitive cost, as well as the fact that 0.0001% copper is essentially no copper!

Consider the following thought experiment that demonstrates 0.0001% is essentially 0.

Take an empty container and measure its weight (you will want to tare the scale to "zero" it, or write this weight down so you can subtract it at a later time).

Then add in (say) 500 mL of Flourish trace, and get the new weight (if you haven't tared the scale, then you can subtract the weight of the empty container at this step).

Let's say 500 mL of Flourish weights 550 grams (water has a density of 1 mL = 1 g, however, since Flourish has other nutrients in it, for the sake of my argument, I'll say it weighs 550 grams).

0.0001% of 550 grams = 0.00055 grams or 0.55 micrograms (1 microgram = 1/1000 of a gram). For comparison, a dime weighs 1.75 grams. The amount of copper is approximately 1/3000 the weight of a dime!

Edit: I found some articles regarding the usage of CSM+B and shrimp in the planted aquarium:
http://www.aquaticplantnews.com/apn/shrimp-in-the-planted-aquarium/
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/38233-why-there-copper-csm-b.html

Also, do note that the copper in the 6 pack is chelated (meaning it's not a free heavy metal, but locked up in an organic complex) making it much less toxic to living organisms.


----------



## dekstr

Wow learning a lot here.

There's a reason why I stopped studying chemistry after grade 11 chemistry. It's interesting, but not THAT interesting, you know?

Good thing there's an EI lite for fert/chemistry newbies like me on TB's site: http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html

Is dosing iron separately neccessary though?


----------



## Brian

Iron is only for the red leafed plants, no?

I hate chemistry with a passion, I stopped in second year uni... thank god.


----------



## Darkblade48

dekstr said:


> Wow learning a lot here.
> 
> There's a reason why I stopped studying chemistry after grade 11 chemistry. It's interesting, but not THAT interesting, you know?
> 
> Is dosing iron separately neccessary though?


To each his own interest, I love chemistry, but don't like the rigours of integral math that comes with it 

Dosing the trace mix is recommended, but I suppose not entirely necessary; it is easier to just dose micros and macros on the same day rather than alternating, I suppose.

However, for sure, it's best not to mix your trace with the macros, due to the possibility of precipitation.



Brian said:


> Iron is only for the red leafed plants, no?
> 
> I hate chemistry with a passion, I stopped in second year uni... thank god.


I stopped chemistry after my 3rd year in university; I had to start focussing on the courses required for my specialist degree 

And no, it's not true that only red leafed plants require iron; all plants require iron, it's just that red leafed plants will require *more* iron (and more light too). Normally, you wouldn't have to worry about adding iron since there is some in tap water, etc; however if you have a tank about medium lighting, you'll definitely want to add in iron to prevent a nutrient imbalance (nutrient imbalance will stress out the plants, giving algae an advantage)

Edit: Here's Chuck Gadd's site that details the possibility of nutrient deficiency in plants; included in the list is iron deficiency!

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm


----------



## Tabatha

*Help w/ Rex Grigg's Calculator Please*

Rex Grigg's web-based calculator isn't working for me regardless of which browser I use on my Mac. Can someone check the dosages for me please?
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

I would ultimately like to make a single liquid which I could use to dose each tank. I don't really want 4 - 1 liter bottles if I can help it.

.695g per 1 L K2SO4 (Potassium Sulphate)
.435g per 1 L KH2PO4 (Mono Potassium Phosphate)
.533g per 1 L KNo3 (Potassium Nitrate)
1.12 g per 1 L MgSO4 (Magnesium Sulphate)

Tank #1: 90 Gallon tank

Tank #2: 20 Gallon tank

I also have Calcium Nitrate but am unsure if I need it.

Many, many thanks!!!


----------



## Darkblade48

(*$&@&)$(*@!!!!

I had a long, LONG reply all typed up, and I accidentally closed the window! (*$&@*($&@(*$

Tabatha:

I'm not sure why Chuck's calculator isn't working for you on a Mac, I know it works on Windows, but I don't have access to a Mac so I cannot recreate your problem.

Regarding your dosing routine; Tom Barr's EI regime normally requires that you dry dose the chemicals; from what you posted, it sounds as if you wish to have a PMDD-style dosing method (i.e. liquid dosing).

From his website:



> This is an example of EI for a 28 week supply for a 20 gallon tank for those with teaspoon aversion.
> 
> To 1 liter of DI water add:
> 
> 60 grams KNO3
> 10 grams of KH2PO4
> 25 grams of GH booster
> 
> Add 5 mls of this solution daily.
> Add TMG at 2.5 mls daily.


Source is: http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...accuracy-want-daily-pmdd-style-ei-dosing.html

Just to let you know, GH booster is a mix of Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate. Since the water in Toronto is moderately, hard, I see no reason to add calcium sulfate; however, the water in Ajax may or may not be different, so it's best to find out (though in general, calcium need not be added unless you have very soft water).

If you follow Tom Barr's method above, then this is the result:

60 g of KNO3 into 1L of water, each mL added to 1 gallon of water would add 5.81 ppm of nitrates (thus, in a 20 gallon tank, each mL would add 5.81/20 = 0.2905 ppm, and in a 90 gallon, 5.81/90 = 0.06455 ppm)

10 grams of KH2PO4 into 1L of water, each mL added to 1 gallon of water would add 1.74 ppm of nitrate (thus in a 20 gallon tank, each mL would add 1.74 / 20 = 0.087 ppm, and in a 90 gallon tank, 1.74/90 = 0.01933 ppm)

In terms of magnesium and potassium (contributed by magnesium sulfate and potassium sulfate, respectively (don't forget that some potassium is also contributed by potassium nitrate)), it is very arbitrary. It is generally agreed that magnesium and potassium are nearly impossible to overdose (i.e. people have dosed in excess of 20 ppm of potassium and nothing went awry).

Assuming you add 60 grams of potassium sulfate to 1L of water, then each mL added to 1 gallon of water would contribute 6.73 ppm of potassium (thus, in a 20 gallon tank, each mL would contribute 0.3365 ppm of potassium).

We must not forget that potassium nitrate also contributes to the potassium levels in the water, so factoring this in: 60 grams of potassium nitrate in 1L of water, each mL added to 1 gallon of water would add 5.81 ppm of potassium (thus, each mL added to 20 gallons of water would add 5.81 / 20 = 0.2905 ppm of potassium). In total 0.3365 + 0.2905 = 0.627 ppm of potassium per mL added to a 20 gallon tank).

Adding 5 mL of this solution to a 20 gallon tank would thus yield 0.627 * 5 = 3.135 ppm of potassium per 5 mL dose.

Adding 1 mL of a solution of 100 grams of Magnesium sulfate dissolved in 1L to 1 gallon of water would yield 2.48 ppm of magnesium. Thus, 1 mL in 20 gallons would yield 2.48/20 = 0.124 ppm of magnesium. Dosing 5 mL per day into a 20 gallon would yield 0.124 * 5 = 0.62 ppm of magnesium.

The latter two chemicals should be less worried about, since there are no (economical) ways to test for their presence in the water column. The best indicator is to look at your plants, to determine if they have a magnesium or potassium deficiency first (not always easy!) before adding more magnesium sulfate or potassium sulfate.

I think getting the nitrates between 5-10 ppm and the phosphates between 0.5 - 1.00 ppm (as well as iron between 0.5 - 1.00 ppm) to be more important. Focus on this first, while adding in (what would essentially be an arbitrary amount) potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate.

Also, if this isn't clear to anyone (yes, this is a *long* post, and there's simply no other way for me to articulate myself in a more precise manner), I do have Skype, and was thinking of perhaps doing a conference call or something for those that are interested in dosing, etc. It's a lot easier than typing up a long, long post, and have it accidentally deleted when my butter fingers press Ctrl + W


----------



## Brian

Lol, Anthony, what browser do you use?


----------



## Tabatha

Holy frig DB, you are AWESOME!!!

I apologize, I was so impatient, I just posted the same request on the Planted Tank, forgive me.

I humbly bow to your awesomeness!

Edit: BTW, our GH has fluctuated btwn 8 & 12 over the past month, I think due to the kink ironing of our CO2 system. This is with the Tetra test.

Edit 2: I've done the same thing re: writing a post then pressing apple + arrow key and it deletes my message


----------



## Darkblade48

*twitch* I just Ctrl + W'ed my reply again....today is NOT a good day 

Anyways:



Brian said:


> Lol, Anthony, what browser do you use?


I'm using Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.6 on Windows XP Pro with SP1 (don't nag me about upgrading to SP2, I'm well aware of the security flaws that SP1 has )



Tabatha said:


> Holy frig DB, you are AWESOME!!!
> 
> I apologize, I was so impatient, I just posted the same request on the Planted Tank, forgive me.
> 
> I humbly bow to your awesomeness!


No worries about cross posting, I'm registered on 8 different forums, but usually only frequent 3 of them, since if I were to visit all 8, it'd be a full time job! 



Tabatha said:


> Edit: BTW, our GH has fluctuated btwn 8 & 12 over the past month, I think due to the kink ironing of our CO2 system. This is with the Tetra test.


I'm not sure what units the Tetra test measures in, but I'm going to assume it's in degrees (thus, 8-12 dGH is about 142.4 - 213.6 ppm, using a conversion of 1 dGH = 17.8 ppm). With these levels, you can omit the addition of calcium sulfate, as there is probably more than enough. In terms of magnesium, you should be OK with adding 100 grams of it to 1 L of water. As calculated above, 5 mL of the solution added to a 20 gallon per day would contribute 0.62 ppm of magnesium. Over a course of 6 days (assuming there is no plant uptake, and that you dose everyday and do a water change on the 7th day), the maximum buildup of magnesium would be 0.62 * 6 = 3.72 ppm. Along with the amount of magnesium in the water (due to the general hardness), your plants should not suffer a magnesium deficiency. If they do (and again, it's usually quite hard to determine what nutrient is lacking!), then you can add more magnesium sulfate.


----------



## Brian

Is that the newest version of FF?

I know that when I accidentally close my FF, it has an option to resume the last session which has everything as it was before you closed it.


----------



## Tabatha

Well, I think I'll just put my rinky-dink test kit in storage and follow Tom Barr's recommendations. Keeping up the 50% water changes and EI dosing for the next month or so. If things continue to go well, I'll stick with the routine of EOD micros and EOD macros, 7th day w/c.

Do others play around with their ferts???


----------



## Darkblade48

Brian said:


> Is that the newest version of FF?
> 
> I know that when I accidentally close my FF, it has an option to resume the last session which has everything as it was before you closed it.


The "restore last session" function is only if FF was closed forcefully, not if you closed it purposefully (problem is, I sometimes hit Ctrl + W )



Tabatha said:


> Well, I think I'll just put my rinky-dink test kit in storage and follow Tom Barr's recommendations. Keeping up the 50% water changes and EI dosing for the next month or so. If things continue to go well, I'll stick with the routine of EOD micros and EOD macros, 7th day w/c.
> 
> Do others play around with their ferts???


Regarding test kits, I'd still keep the nitrate and phosphate (if you have one) test kits available, at least for the first few weeks, to make sure that your levels are where you want them.

But yes, if you keep with Tom Barrs' recommendation (60 grams KNO3, 10 grams KH2PO4, and (say) 60 grams K2SO4 and 100 grams MgSO4, every other day; as well as micros every other day), then it should be OK.

As for me, I do play around a bit with fertilizer levels, I make batches of the liquid ferts every so often, and will add some x amount of fertilizer every other day. At the end of the week, before my water change, I'd check the levels of phosphate and nitrates in the water (to determine whether I've been adding too much/too little) and then adjust from there (i.e. add a little more/little less every other day).

I'm also currently experimenting with a PPS-Pro system that was developed by Edward over at APC, it's supposedly a method that is somewhat based on Diana Walstad's "all natural" method.


----------



## Brian

Oh right... well in that case, that sucks


----------



## JamesG

I tried my best to read the whole bulk of this thread but I did get the gist of it and feel that I can offer some assistance.

http://www.hydroponics.com/info/aquatics/pmdd.htm

That is a basic mixing guide for making PMDD (Poor Mans Dosing Drops - other long form of the acronym are used but that is the one I know).

I did once try to mess around with ferts but found it a bit tedious. What I do think you should do is find a reliable botany site which illustrates the effects of different nutrient deficiencies in aquatic plants.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

This site is alright but I recall finding some parts inaccurate. When I first found this link I was still studying molecular botany and could actually remember this stuff. Short of digging out my old notes I think this site is good enough. The old vs new growth division is key as without this breakdown other sites are just guessing.

All that said my fert regiment is the occasional PMDD in a tank if I am feeling nice or a sprinkling of any needed dry ferts if some plants are looking a little deprived.


----------



## Darkblade48

In terms of PMDD, it's slightly (more than slightly) out of date; the problem with it is that you'll have to do a lot more testing than using the EI method.

I think if you want to avoid testing (remember, Tom Barrs' EI regime is designed so that plants will have an excess of nutrients, and each weekly 50% water change prevents an excessive build up), then one could always try Edward's PPS-Pro regime.

Rather than providing plants with an excess of what they need, it's supposedly been designed so that you provide a little more than enough nutrients for the plants (i.e. so it's not in excess). I'm currently trying this in my 2.5 nano, and we'll see how the results go after a few weeks (I got some hairgrass and it seems to be doing well, the Crypts have finally started their spontaneous rotting...)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/

Is the link for PPS


----------



## Zebrapl3co

I agreed, I think PPMD is out dated and it's very specific to fast growing plants but does not do well for slow growing plant where algae can set in.
Also going back afew page of post.
No you don't need Calcium nitrate. It's more for land plants where you need more nitrogen and calcium.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Tabatha

*PPS Pro*



Darkblade48 said:


> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/
> 
> Is the link for PPS


Thanks for the link! The article is fast and easy to read for a non-technical person to follow. I might try this on one of my other tanks.

Thanks!!!


----------



## Tabatha

Do UV sterilizers have any negative effects on fertilizers?


----------



## Darkblade48

Tabatha said:


> Do UV sterilizers have any negative effects on fertilizers?


They are supposedly able to hasten the chelation of the metals (normally iron and copper are chelated, or "tied up" in such a way so that plants can use them more easily).


----------



## Tabatha

Plant growth has gone crazy over the past 2 weeks! I'm going to let everything grow in, then once I have my new tank set up I'll use the clippings.


----------



## Tabatha

*Red Beard Algae*

Red (beard) Algae is running rampant now. I tried squirting 3% peroxide on a leaf, that did nothing.

Am going to check with Menagerie to see if they have any SAEs. Course they'll have to go in quarantine for at least 2 weeks.

Copper, of course, is out of the question.

Any other ideas?


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Oh boy. It looks like your troubles are starting to surface now. And you pick the worst ones to start with.
Red beard algae or black beard algae is the hardest ones to get rid of.
SAE will only slow down the progress. Cut every leaves you see with the stuff growing on it. But the hardest is when they start growing on your drift wood and gravels. That would be very hard to get rid of. Doing this with good fert management will keep them in check.
Edit: That was one of the reason why I didn't take your offer on plant swaps. It's because I didn't want to pass them along to you. I used to be in that nice innocent period where I thought that I can easily fight off any algae. That was, until I purposely got this algae to try out if I can kill if off.. LOL ... talk about asking for trouble ... that innocent me died two years ago and I am still trying to kill this stuff.
I have some tanks that are free of this stuff though. I have yet to find out why though. I suspect that the spores are there as I do share nets and gravel vacs; bad practice but I am poor(well, ok I am cheap), but they have never taken a hold of my other tanks.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Tabatha

Zebrapl3co said:


> Oh boy. It looks like your troubles are starting to surface now. And you pick the worst ones to start with.
> Red beard algae or black beard algae is the hardest ones to get rid of.
> SAE will only slow down the progress. Cut every leaves you see with the stuff growing on it. But the hardest is when they start growing on your drift wood and gravels. That would be very hard to get rid of. Doing this with good fert management will keep them in check.


Thanks Zebra, I know we've really got our hands full at the moment!

Crap is in the grass as well. I read on the chichlid-forum that you can get media to put in your filter to remove phosphates. Has anyone tried this?

Edit:

Seachem PhosGuard: http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/PhosGuard.html

Phosphates in the aquarium: http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/phosphates.php

Carbon Products and Phosphates: http://www.aquariumsecrets.com/carbon_phosphates.htm

We just removed all carbon from our filters last Friday during a water change.

Thanks,

Tabatha


----------



## Tabatha

*Red Brush Algae Article*

Here's an interesting thread about red algae, phosphates and SAE NOT eating the algae! In the response however, he may not have enough SAE's, 1 per 10g is recommended.

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9705/msg00238.html


----------



## Darkblade48

IME with BBA, a 3% hydrogen peroxide spot treatment worked; how long are you leaving the peroxide on for? I'd also suggest turning off the filter when you do the spot treatment, so that you can maximize the contact time.

Another alternative to peroxide spot treatment is Excel spot treatment; I have found this to be very effective as well.

Of course, both of these treatments are bandaid solutions; until you get to the root cause of the problem, the BBA will most likely persist and come back.

As Zebrapl3co mentioned, the best thing to do with badly infested plants is to cut off the overridden parts. Then, ensure that your CO2 levels are at 30 ppm, nitrates at 10-15 ppm, and phosphates around 1 ppm (it is not entirely true that an excess of phosphates causes BBA! Tom Barr has often had phosphate levels at 2 ppm or more, and you know how successful he is )


----------



## Tabatha

Until this past weekend, we had been using charcoal in our filter, which is known to leach phosphates. 

How are you supposed to keep a liquid in one spot under water???!!!


----------



## Darkblade48

Well, you try to keep the liquid in one spot 

By turning off the filter, you can maximize the time the peroxide is "around" the general vicinity of the algae. 

You could also make a small container, weigh it down, poke a hole at the top, and then place the weighted container over your plants you want to spot treat. Then, slow inject some peroxide through the hole; the container traps the peroxide in one area and the concentration should be higher (hopefully enough to kill the algae)


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Tabatha said:


> Here's an interesting thread about red algae, phosphates and SAE NOT eating the algae! In the response however, he may not have enough SAE's, 1 per 10g is recommended.
> 
> http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9705/msg00238.html


This is a bad ideal and a bad suggestion in my opinion. One problem being that a cute little 2" SAE will look cute and goes to work on your algae almost instantly. But they will quickly grow into 6" fish that doesn't look very appealing and doesn't eat as much algae. I have no problem with individuals who intends to keep the fish for the rest of their natural life. But the problem is that eventually, people will want other fishs in the tank because of stocking issues. 1 per 10g is just a wreckless recommendation. The SAE will just about fill up the tank in terms of stocking. You can still put a few fishs here and there, but your major residence will be the SAE that aren't eating much algae. This is because their diet changes when they grow older. They will still eat algae, but you'll find that older SAE will like your fish flakes more.
This creates a dilema where every body doesn't want a grown up SAE in their tank. I think you where this is going. Heartless people tend to find reasons to do away with their grown up SAE since they out lived their usefulness.
These guys (grown up ones) also tend to dig up your java moss from your driftwood and ricca as well. I tried 5 times in the last 2 years to tie down my java moss onto the diftwood only to have the SAE pull them free in the next few weeks.

Anyway, I would only recommend 2 or 3 in a tank. They do help you clean your tank. It's just that you'll have to do your part to solve your algae problem and not depend on an animal to fix your problem.



Darkblade48 said:


> IME with BBA, a 3% hydrogen peroxide spot treatment worked...


Peroxide is a "no no" when you have shrimps in your tank. While shrimps like algae eating shrimps can survive the poisoning, smaller dwarf shrimps can't. It's more leathal than Excel. I suspect this is because Excel is actually 1/4 - 1/2 peroxide because I observe that they have the same effects on plant when you overdose them.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Tabatha

Very wise and sage words, I do know where you're coming from.

Have you tried Phosphate removers?


----------



## Zebrapl3co

No, I've never resort to those things. I am just a bit curious though, why did you think the carbon introduce phosphate into your tank? I am under the impression that carbon will suck it up.
And beside, nothing can be more easier than you pulling it out physically. As in cutting your plants. Time on the other hand is a problem in my case. I don't have the time to do these kinds of things.
If you need some helpers. Amanos shrimps, cherry shrimps, american flag fish, SAE and BN plecos (1.5 - 2" ones) will help you out. However, none of them will be a fan of black beard algae though. SAE in my experience seems the best.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Tabatha

Hi Zebra, I posted a link to an article on page 5 of this thread about carbon leeching phosphates into aquarium water. I found a plethora of information on phosphates, just Google "red beard alga".

We have Amanos, RCS, Green shrimp and 2 BN plecos.

Yesterday I squirted 10cc's Excel on a single anubias leaf which I'll check today. It's also all through my grass. 

I'll Google flag fish, I also read that black mollies will eat red algae...

Of course I can't introduce any new fish at the moment.


----------



## gucci17

Tabatha, I find that black mollies or any type for that matter aren't the best algae eaters either. The only time it seems that they even attempt eating algae is when they are being starved. Which means I have to starve the rest of the fish in my tank. Way to hard to control. I eventually gave up and let them be. lol I've tried all type of algae eaters. I have mollies, bn plecos, ottos, SAEs, amano shrimp and some cherry shrimp in my planted tank. None whom seem to enjoy BBA. I've given up on trying to get rid of BBA. It doesn't really seem to thrive when you have your co2/ferts consistent but it is unsightly.  It just grows REALLY slowly.
I was never successful with spot treating BBA with excel either. It's probably due to the fact that I'm not a big fan of overdosing. I didn't use more than 5cc of excel in fear of it harming my shrimp/inhabitants. Perhaps I should have been more aggressive. I hope 10cc works out for you. If it does, I may gather up my courage to attempt it myself.


----------



## Tabatha

Meh, the Excel didn't seem to work, mind you I only tried it once for the same reasons you site, didn't want it to affect the inhabitants.

We spotted a very large Amano shrimp loaded with eggs. I'm thinking of moving her to another tank with brackish water.


----------



## Chris S

I'll post here some very speculative information on my experiences with BBA, based solely on my experience. 

I typically get BBA in areas with a large amount of flow, just outside the filter output (spray bar on my EHEIM).

It grows quite slow, and typically confines itself to certain areas (I've never had it take over a tank, like thread algae for example.

To get rid of it, I've found two things work for me.

1. Increasing the general amount of flow in the tank. I know it sounds weird, but it works just about everytime. Even despite it growing in high-flow areas, more flow in the tank in general seems to eliminate it.

2. Proper pruning. I've read, and agree that older plants (or damaged), especially stem plants, will leak nutrients back into the water column. I find much of my BBA can be avoided if I do my proper weekly pruning. I'm lazy sometimes, I don't have the time - and those are the weeks I typically come across BBA.

Also, I'm pretty sure BBA turns a pinkish hue when it is dying, so if you are seeing red or pink, it might be on its way out already.

It's an odd one. No doubt it is partially caused by excess nutrients, one way or another, but I've never found that cutting back my ferts gets rid of it. It's exact causes seem to be disputed amount everyone and fairly inconclusive.

In any case, good luck!


----------



## Chris S

Tabatha said:


> We spotted a very large Amano shrimp loaded with eggs. I'm thinking of moving her to another tank with brackish water.


From what I have read, real Amano's won't breed in freshwater and brackish water doesn't yield a very good success rate.

If you really want to breed them, try salt


----------



## Tabatha

I understand that they will breed in fresh water but the babies don't survive in f/w. Perhaps Katalyst can clear this up for us? 

http://caridina.japonica.online.fr/English/Identite.htm

"The larvae are hatched in the fresh water of streams and rivers. But they are plankton-like, and for all practical purposes unable to swim, so they are washed-out downstream to the brackish waters of the river's mouth.There they will grow for about 6 weeks, until their metamorphosis; then, they will swim back upstream to their natural habitat. Here lies the prime difficulty in breeding them, for you have to duplicate those water conditions, which means adding salt and then removing it in accordance to the growth of the larvae. And that means that you will not be able to breed them in the main tank where the adults are kept; so a separate tank will be necessary."


----------



## Chris S

I believe you are correct!


----------



## gucci17

I've read articles that actual salt water yielded very good results with Amanos.

If I come across it again, I'll shoot you the link.

Tabatha, why don't you just pull the BBA effected plants and just dip them in a peroxide solution?


----------



## Tabatha

gucci, can you direct me to an article? I'd be happy to do this but I don't want to end up killing all my plants  Do you dilute the peroxide?


----------



## gucci17

Here's one on the peroxide - http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.asp

It doesn't explain about dipping though. I think you need to do a search for that on some of planted forums. I can't remember exactly what measurements it was.

As for the amano article - http://caridina.japonica.online.fr/English/Elevage.htm


----------



## Tabatha

1) I removed an anubias with a bowl of tank water and treated it with 5mls of peroxide, waited 10 minutes then rinsed it and put it in a different tank. Because we're treating this tank with antibiotics, I didn't want to mix chemicals.

2) Saw and caught big momma and transfered her into a small tank with 1tsp salt (NOT table) per gallon with java moss & fern. She wasn't happy and I felt bad but it would be great if we could raise more amanos considering their life span is so short.

Update: Just saw 2 more HUGELY pregnant female Amanos in the big tank. I might try to net another...


----------



## gucci17

I really hope it works out for you. I think they're great little workers.


----------



## gucci17

gucci17 said:


> I really hope it works out for you. I think they're great little workers.


check out this link for amanos - http://www.shrimpnow.com/modules.ph...to Shrimp&name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=44


----------



## Tabatha

*Changing Water Chemistry w/ Ferts?*

Is it possible to change the chemistry of your water with fertilizers to the point where it would adversely affect your fish?


----------



## Chris S

Yea....If you were, for instance, to add waaaay too much nitrogen you could kill your fishies.

With overfertilization and no water changes, your TDS will change too - which is why water changes are very important if you are regularily dosing your tank with fertilizers.

Aside from that, many of the fertilizer regimes now commonly used are built around the idea of overfertilizing your tank - but resetting it via fairly large water changes.


----------



## Tabatha

I haven't fertilized the tank since the big die off and I have to admit that I'm a little nervous. Some say that 50% water changes are too severe for fish, I'd really like to have a general consensus on this before I start dosing again.

When I do start dosing again, I'm going to start off with 1/4 the recommended amount. Can't blame me for being cautious. 

Twenty-four hours after the antibiotics were finished, we performed the recommended 20% w/c and added carbon to the filters. A few days later we did another 70% w/c and one of our tetra (Cardinal) died a few hours later. I pulled out the majority of our plants, chucked the dead and melting ones which didn't leave us with much. Friday I purchased a bunch of new stem plants. There haven't been any deaths since the big w/c. We did a 25% w/c this past weekend, the water is crystal clear. We're going to take out the carbon this coming weekend. I was going to start fertilizing again but I'm too scared.

Tabatha


----------



## Chris S

It is not going to hurt your fishies, but make sure you remove the carbon before you start fertilizing.

I've found underdosing leads to algae, but if you are really nervous about it, that is really the only bad thing I can think of.

As for water changes, I never do more than around 20% when I do them.


----------



## Tabatha

So do you do more than one w/c per week? What method?



Chris S said:


> It is not going to hurt your fishies, but make sure you remove the carbon before you start fertilizing.
> 
> I've found underdosing leads to algae, but if you are really nervous about it, that is really the only bad thing I can think of.
> 
> As for water changes, I never do more than around 20% when I do them.


Edit: I think I'm going to try the PPS-Pro method. I've printed off all the documentation from APC and am going to study it on the way home today.


----------



## Chris S

The fertilizer I use is called Pfertz (www.pfertz.com) and I use it somewhat in regards to the EI method - dose all week, water change to reset.

I do 20% water change (estimated) once a week.

I find my fert schedule and method requires a lot less time and leaves me some room for error etc. I've heard good things about PPS, but it looks a bit too exact for my liking


----------



## Tabatha

I know you've mentioned your ferts before, I've been to that website but where do you buy them? I don't recall seeing that brand in stores.

- t.


----------



## Darkblade48

I agree with Chris, if you are going to dose fertilizers, it is better to dose strongly at once rather than starting off at 1/4 the dose. If you dose less, then your plants may be starved, depending on the amount of lighting as well as CO2 that is available to them.

Keep in mind that due to your ripping up of plants, there will be less demand for the aforementioned requirements as well.


----------



## Chris S

Tabatha said:


> I know you've mentioned your ferts before, I've been to that website but where do you buy them? I don't recall seeing that brand in stores.
> 
> - t.


Off the website - send them an e-mail and Alex can answer any of your questions. They ship to Canada now. Tell him Chris from Toronto sent you


----------

