# Filtration Turnover Rate



## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm curious about the turnover ratio other members have in their setups.

What's your turnover rate?

Mine is 14.8 times per hour for 80G tank


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

About 13/hr on 75 Gallon (FX5) not including a powerhead.

I'm with you, there's no overfiltering so long as the fish can swim and retreat to calm areas.


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## adrenaline (Jan 17, 2011)

turnover isn't always the answer. Take eheim filters for example. usually lower flow rates than some other brands, but they end up doing a much better job. 

Flow rate works in correlation with media capacity. which is why the emporer/penguin HOB's kind of suck. speaking first hand here. they hold so little media... i have a 350B and I had to get the additional media container (grey plastic tray) to add additional media.

I've now switched over to primarily canisters. Almost all eheim, and i couldn't be happier. tanks are always crystal clear. I do however run a diatom filter once every few weeks as well which leaves my tanks ridiculously clean 

as for turnover i'm probably in the 8-10 range on most of my tanks. I run dual canisters on most. This is aside from power heads and circulation pumps


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Turnover probably isn't the best measure - on my folk's 75g, there's 6x turnover. But there's 2x Eheim 2217's providing the filtration, and it's probably out filtering most 75g tanks.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I don't know, or care are what my turnovers are. Most of my tanks are filtered with ATi Hydrosponges, and they work , although I'm sure the turnover rate is very low. It is a meaningless number, other than for discussion. If your ammonia and nitrite is at 0, it doesn't matter if you are turning the water over less than once or 100 times per hour.


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

BillD said:


> I don't know, or care are what my turnovers are. Most of my tanks are filtered with ATi Hydrosponges, and they work , although I'm sure the turnover rate is very low. It is a meaningless number, other than for discussion. If your ammonia and nitrite is at 0, it doesn't matter if you are turning the water over less than once or 100 times per hour.


we are here to discuss about it..

If you don't care about it, then why you post about this in the first place? Isn't it meaningless to you? and meaningless to waste a space?


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

He might not care about high turnover, but is still welcome to voice an opinion about it.

I'm a huge advocate of spongfilters, especially ATI Hydrosponges, but in certain tanks I really appreciate the strong currents and lack of dead-flow zones in the tank, especially in the very giant tanks I've had and the densely plants tanks also.


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

At least express the opinion more nicer like Eric did...


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

I usually have only 5-10x turnover


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

bigfishy said:


> we are here to discuss about it..
> 
> If you don't care about it, then why you post about this in the first place? Isn't it meaningless to you? and meaningless to waste a space?


Actually not really. There seems to an obsession for "overfiltration" on many forums these days. It is a term I don't like because, as stated, once your numbers are at 0, all your doing is moving water. As well, if the solid debris, is contained in a can where there is a high rate of flow, some of it will be liquidized and returned to the tank. The rest sits there, hidden away, until the filter is cleaned. For those that are meticulous about hygiene, this will be regularly, while it seems the majority go months between cleanings. Having a cannister go months between cleanings is akin to not vacuuming the gravel with a UGF. Anything in the filter, regardless of type, must be considered still in the tank. So, flow rate is of little or no importance if the filter isn't getting cleaned long before it becomes plugged.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

But if your levels are at 0, does it matter if the filters go months between cleaning? It would certainly be one thing if the result of the accumulated dirt over the course of weeks meant exhausted filtration capacity due to increased load and a resultant non-0 reading for ammonia and nitrite, but the absolute capacity of canisters remains at such a level that for the most part they're overcoming detrius accumulation.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

True to a point, but the resulting nitrate numbers will be higher, as will the other organic wastes that aren't measured for, that we do water changes for. What this does tell us is that the manufacturers of filters perhaps do know a little bit about filtration.


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## adrenaline (Jan 17, 2011)

man I love this forum. always learn interesting things  I've been known to let my canisters go uncleaned for a little longer than i should  I've been working on that. Thankfully my Diatom helps out a LOT. it's more than worth the hassle just to see how clean my water is after using it. 

That's also the reason I run multiple filters. Just in case I don't have the time i need to clean my filters on a regular basis, the added filtration/media capacity allows for a bit longer of an interval between cleanings. After all, the last thing i want is my little fishy friends suffering due to neglect on my behalf.

I'm always looking for bigger and better filters. very expensive addiction... but new toys are so much fun... and the fish benifit from it, which is great!

I have a few breeding tanks currently, and all of them are designed to look like show tanks. the ony downside to this is catching fish to strip them can be a PITA... but on the plus side as my tanks are constantly being dismantaled and reassembled (never fully) it gives me the chance to do some vacuming in areas that wouldn't normally be accessable.

Sorry if im ranting here, but this is somewhat related to turnover rate. I believe the additional cleaning in between allows my filters to do a better job at cleaning the tanks, as they will have less work to do in maintaining my tanks.


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

BillD said:


> if the solid debris, is contained in a can where there is a high rate of flow, some of it will be liquidized and returned to the tank. The rest sits there, hidden away, until the filter is cleaned.


How do sponge filters work again?


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

A sponge filter works by moving water slowly through the sponge, trapping fine particles. Heavier debris lays around the base for easy removal during water changes. They do catch a lot of very fine particulate, and like any filter, need to be cleaned regularly in order to work properly. A sponge filter may actually need it more since the flow is low to begin with and if it were to get plugged, it would greatly reduce it's effectiveness. Fortunately, they are easily cleaned every water change.
So, if we relate this back to flow rate, my sponge filtered tanks will have a lot of debris on the bottom at water change time, which I remove with the water change. In the case of a high flow filter, much of that debris would be in the filter, whether it is a cannister or an HOB, and unless I cleaned the filter every time the water is changed, would still be in the tank. Sponge filters and AC filters are easy to clean with every water change.
If we take it a step farther and compare what the manufacturers recommend to what is recommended on forums, one would be led to believe that there isn't a manufacturer out there that has a clue about filtration, as forum recommendations are usually two to three times the manufacturers recommendation. This thread is a good example of that as most of those commenting are operating filters with high flow/turnover rates. Whether they are actually turning the water over as many times as the owners think remains to be seen. Again, it doesn't really matter what the turnover rate is if the filtration is working. I'm not knocking cannisters per se, but before I spent $200 on a filter for a 75, I would buy another new 75, light, substrate and filter(s).With the money left over I would stock the tank.


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

I know how they work already, the filter's work by the same basic principal, only sponge filters are less effective at keeping the actual tank debri-less, but are more simple to clean. Especially great filtration for bare bottom and/or breeding tanks. 
Neglected cannisters can be nitrate factories (so would a neglected sponge filtered tank), the dirty large capacity filters can feed my numerous plants for a month or two, while very effectively keeping debris out of the showtank. The plant guys keep yelling that you're plants can get enough nitrates.

I don't quite agree, people love to recommend sponge filters. This thread is talking about filtration turnover, it makes sense that this thread is commented on by some people with high rates isn't it.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I agree with you Will, and as I mentioned any filter is a nitrate factory. I also expect people to comment on their turnover rates, since this thread is a discussion. As well, some people such as Oliver Lucannus, believe a high current in a tank may be a good thing. My problem with all this is that there is a trend to advising people that they absolutely need double the manufacturers recommendation (possible in some cases), when in fact they don't. I had a similar discussion in another forum where an individual insisted you should have an FX5 for a 75, when an AC110 would have done the job. He further commented that if I was looking for cheap I should get out of the hobby. I found his cavalier attitude about someone else's money to be offensive (told him so). This hobby can be as expensive as you want it to be, and there are many very young participants on these forums that are just starting out in the hobby, and they simply can't afford to buy into the high end of this hobby (as I can't and wouldn't even when I could). They can easily enjoy the hobby on a shoestring budget with the right advice. These young people are the future of the hobby, and driving them away by advising them to spend money they don't have is a bad thing.
I am stepping down from the soap box now.


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

There's no _One Right_ way to do things in this hobby, thats the first thing I've told many many people. Agreed there is a lot of trending going on; overfiltration, shrimp-products, over lighting, DIYing, pico sizing... some people just love their fancy toys! No one should act the way you described, critiscing anyone not following one formula. But there's not a lot of harm in someone putting extra money into certain areas of his tank where simple cheap options are available and satisfactory. Everyone can get away with driving a Prius, but I'm sure it's enjoyable to spend money buying a mustang and then spend some more customising.

Activated Carbon was a long going trend, I've gotten out of that one for the most part.

And the craze of complicating shrimp keeping too is one I'll largely ignore, CRS can be kept and bred plainly as RCS are.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Most of the time, it depends on the type of fish you're keeping and the type of food you are feeding your fish. Plecos for example do require a better filtration. In this case, doubling the filtration system is a pretty safe bet for a healthier live stock.

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## adrenaline (Jan 17, 2011)

I second, or third the notion that this hobby is not just for those with lots of disposable income. There are so many techniques and options for all aspects of fishkeeping. And aquarium stok has a lot to do with fintration. if you have a 75 gallon with only a few small fish you can get away with much less filtration than say a 40 gallon that's over stocked.

There are some aspects of this that I turn to the good old DIY for. Like egg tumblers, aquarium lids, and stands... I find I can make a much nicer looking stand than the basic compressed wood with laminate store stands. for a simlar price, or a bit less.

I do however have a slightly different opinion on marine tanks. i do think you need to have more income to get one running successfully. Speaking from disastrous experience you can't really skimp out on too much with them. I learned my lesson the hard way there sadly... 

As far as filters go, go with whatever works for you, and keeps your tanks clean. There are so many options.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Filter turnover rate simply describes the amount of water flow in your tank. This can be important as it affects gas exchange/distribution, and some species like high flow.

However, I don't think it's of much value when measuring biological filtration. Just because water is passing through your media at a higher rate doesn't mean it's getting denitrified at a faster pace! On the contrary, if you're trying to reduce nitrates into nitrogen gas, you actually want a slow flow so that the water can become anaerobic.

On the other hand, it is certainly important for mechanical filtration. The more powerful the filter, the bigger debris particles it can suck up. In that regard, it's the same idea as a vacuum cleaner.


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## shenglu (Oct 17, 2011)

In some tanks, I really appreciate the lack of strong currents and dead flow zone in the tank, especially in very large tanks and the tanks I have intensive plants.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm in the "turnover doesn't matter" category. I still go big on filtration.

I believe that large tanks should be overfiltered with cannisters, not to provide a certain number of "times per hour" of turnover, but rather, because it provides a stable, sparkling clear, ammonia free environment for my critters.

For small tanks, I over-do it with one big HOB, or sometimes a pair of HOBs. I have found that I can over-filter tanks. I have kept some species that demand very still water. I stressed some fish out, and I killed my african dwarf frogs, and then I realized YOU CAN OVER-FILTER. But on a cichild tank, or any fast moving fish that likes clean water, the question is quality.

Eheim cannisters, and other good cannisters that have a relatively low bypass rate are probably maintaining a cleaner water column, than I would get with the same GPH using an HOB filtration system. But I would rather have a filter that keeps going than one that maintains zero bypass. I don't check my filter outflows every day. I want graceful degradation. For me, the eheim design is perfect. It runs for months, and each time I service it, I only disturb one cannister, not the other. 

No filter is going to get into anaerobic territory, unless you built it solely for that purpose, and used some kind of "mL/hour" drip feed intake, and a special coil, and perhaps something like a vodka-fed anaerobic denitrifier. That crap ain't worth your time. Just do water changes. Sufficiently high flow and sufficently low bypass, and oxygen-rich water, and denitrification are what hobby filtration is all about.


W


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## k2x5 (Mar 12, 2008)

bigfishy said:


> I'm curious about the turnover ratio other members have in their setups.
> 
> What's your turnover rate?
> 
> Mine is 14.8 times per hour for 80G tank


About 5-6x.


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## absun (Aug 28, 2011)

Talking about flow rate alone does not yield a full picture. How you strategically place the intake and outflow to avoid dead spots, volume of the filter media, bioloads, is your plants shedding leaves all come into play. 

I used to have 5x turnover with a HOB, but it clogged up less than a week due to waste and plant debris buildup. Changed my plants, reduced feeding and adding air-driven box filters. now HOB are relatively clean even for two weeks without cleaning, as the heavy lifting is done by sponge/box filters. There is no doubt that the flow rate of box filters is no way near a HOB, but it does the work. bTW, I added the extended uplifting tubes like the UGF ones which might contributed to a stronger current


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