# C. Atropersonatus - Red Belly, Feathery White Pelvic Fin



## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm having a heck of time with my C. astopersonatus 25 gal. tank.

3 weeks ago when I went to feed them, one of the smaller ones went spastic and darted all around the tank then floated on it's side. By the time I could get the hospital tank ready, he was dead. He had pink around his pelvic fins.

2 weeks ago I noticed another one of them with a pinkish tinge in the same area. I treated the whole tank for 4 days with API Erythromycin. Things looked good after that.

Today when I went to feed them I saw one of them with a lot of red on the belly and white growth on one of the pelvic fins. I can't exactly tell if it's feathery. At first I thought it was a clutch of eggs but it isn't.










I've started treating the whole tank with Meracyn and Maracyn-Two.

Questions:

1) Are these the correct medications?

2) Should I be treating the whole tank (25 gal) or should I move the infected fish to a hospital tank? (I don't care about the cost of treating the 25 gal).

3) Is there anything else I should be doing?

4) Why is this happening?

Tank specifics:

NH3/4 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, pH 7.6

Weekly 25% water changes. Last week I did 2 x 25% water changes because of the previous Erythromycin medication.

Aquaclear 50 & Eheim 2215

Air stone curtain.

Temp 78F

Silica sand substrate.

Live planted tank.

Someone on another forum suggested it was worms!?

Any and all help would be appreciated. I really love these guys.

Thank you


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## jewel-stavroula (Jan 11, 2008)

Hello there,
I know that these were wild caught (as I was the one who sold them to you).. I would definitely lower the pH in the tank to about 6.8 (gradually, of course) as they do better in more acidic water than what your tank currently reads.. Usually pH that is too high will cause bacterial issues. You are using the correct medications.. I would just treat the whole tank.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

jewel-stavroula said:


> Hello there,
> I know that these were wild caught (as I was the one who sold them to you).. I would definitely lower the pH in the tank to about 6.8 (gradually, of course) as they do better in more acidic water than what your tank currently reads.. Usually pH that is too high will cause bacterial issues. You are using the correct medications.. I would just treat the whole tank.


Hm, I was hoping to avoid playing the 'pH adjustment' game but if that's what you think the problem is then I guess that's what I'm going to have to do. Problem with doing this is that every time I do a water change I'm going to have to adjust the pH of the water I'm adding. Guess, I should have done more research...

What about the comment I got about worms? Is that possible? Does Harold treat for worms during quarantine?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

That lesion looks like certain trouble. Have you tried an antithelmintic yet? Although it is curious that you had septicemia like symptoms a few weeks ago, and now this crops up. 

I would follow Jewel's advice and try to lower the tank pH. Perhaps try with an unboiled piece of driftwood. It will slowly lower the pH of the tank, and also release beneficial tannis into the water. Also, you can try lowering it with RO water, but I personally like the wood idea.


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## menagerie (Mar 18, 2006)

All of the wild corys that come from that exporter are treated with Leviamasole and Praziquantal at the exporters. They are held for 2 to 3 three weeks before they are shipped. If it was worms they would have appeared a bit earlier.
The combo of Maracyn and Maracyn II is a good regime as it is more than likely bacterial. The redness on the under belly usually starts from an irritation either by too rough of a substrate or an injury. 
Yes lowering the pH will definitely help.

The majority of Corys in pet shops are wild caught and they adapt quite well. Something has happened to this specimen to cause the redness. All is not lost and treating with what you are treating should work.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Thanks for the advice.

I too was wondering about the worms comment based on what you had told me how you quarantine them. But if there is any doubt I'll go and buy what's needed. I'm just not sure what to buy and if it can/should be combined with the Maracyn.

The substrates is washed silica sand. I appears not to be sharp to the touch. The Cories love to sift through it. If this is the wrong substrate, please tell me and I will replace it. This is the first time I've used silica sand. I did research it and I couldn't find any warnings about using it and I thought it would be safer and less trouble than play sand. Plus, it's whight, like my Cories. I have pea pebble gravel in all my other tanks.

I'll have to go looking for some driftwood. I was getting mine from the PetSmart on Eglinton and Laird Drive as they have the nicest wood although BA on Kennedy gets some good pieces in every once and a while.

Does the Menagerie have a good selection? I didn't notice when I was there.

This morning the red is redder and he/she's just lying in the corner of the tank. I suspect he's already dead because I see no movement but I'll leave him alone until I can confirm it.

This may be a dumb question but can swimming pool pH adjustment chemicals be used in a fresh water aquarium?

Thanks for all your advice.


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## menagerie (Mar 18, 2006)

Cory_Dad said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> I too was wondering about the worms comment based on what you had told me how you quarantine them. But if there is any doubt I'll go and buy what's needed. I'm just not sure what to buy and if it can/should be combined with the Maracyn.
> 
> ...


Some Silica sands can be too sharp. Double 00 is best. I prefer washed river sand, which is not as easy to find. The only issue with swimming pool pH adjustment is that it is usually very concentrated and must be used carefully. Some of them are also phosphoric acid base and may lead to a slight increase in phosphates in the long term.

I'll be honest and say that when the reddening of the underside of the cory's body becomes more pronounced it is very hard to cure. Maracyn and Marcayn II in combination may cure it. It's too bad that Aquatronics become defunct as their Furacyn was a sure fire cure for that problem. I haven't found a substitute that is as good. Furan 2 may be a better option than the Maracyn alone. The combination of the Maracyns has shown effective for a number of people.

Not a great selection of driftwood at the moment. I've been negotiating to get a big load of bracnhy driftwodd from Borneo but have had less than enthusiastic assistance from Agriculture Canada on whether it's actually going to be legally allowed into the country. I've been having some difficulty with importing sands for shrimps as well.

There should be another order of "rarer" Corys (12+ species) coming the first week of October. Come and see me and I'll fix you up with some better prices for your troubles.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Well, it's as I suspected, he was dead.

He didn't move all day and the snails were starting to swarm on him.

At this point I might as well continue with the treatment, only 3 days left and I don't want to end up with any 'super' bugs in the tank. The others look ok and it can't do any damage, except to my filters' bio material. The DO should be ok as I have a lot of agitation between the AquaClear 50 and the Eheim 2215. I also have a curtain air stone going; that's been in for weeks already.

After this is all over I'll do that 50% water change.

What, in your opinion is the best way to lower the pH? And what about the silica sand, should I replace it? I just may replace it with pea gravel as the sand is harder to keep clean.

Thanks again very much for your help.

Edit: I checked the swimming pool pH down chemicals and all that's listed is sodium hydrogen sulphate. I don't think I want to put that into the tank. That's NaH2SO3, isn't it? Not sure what the by products would be, but H2SO3 mixed with water creates battery acid. Delish after a hard night of drinking as a pick-me-up...NOT!


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## jewel-stavroula (Jan 11, 2008)

A great way to lower the pH is to: 1) add driftwood to the tank or 2) add almond leaves.. they're a bit expensive and somewhat harder to find than they should be, but, they will definitely do the job!

You shouldn't have to replace the silica but, it definitely does deplete quite quickly after a few syphoning sessions...


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

jewel-stavroula said:


> A great way to lower the pH is to: 1) add driftwood to the tank or 2) add almond leaves.. they're a bit expensive and somewhat harder to find than they should be, but, they will definitely do the job!
> 
> You shouldn't have to replace the silica but, it definitely does deplete quite quickly after a few syphoning sessions...


I'm thinking of buying a RO system but will also be putting in some driftwood as soon as I can get to BA's on Kennedy or the PetSmart on Eglinton.

I also got a tip from someone on a UK forum for Oak Bark extract but so far the only place I can find that sells it is in Germany 7.17 EU for 300ml but apparently it lasts quite a while as you don't use much.

What about putting in some brown oak leaves?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Same effect as driftwood. It releases tannins into the water as it decomposes, and it lowers pH slightly. Most woods do this naturally, it's just that some have more tannins than others.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Is using oak leaves a viable option then? You said 'slightly'. Does than been I need a bushel full to lower it .2?

I suspect if I try this it will be a 'dump in a handful and start taking measurements'.

I'm just a bit wary of the RO if I have to start playing mad chemist with the water.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

OK, I ordered an RO system + testing kits +++. It only came to $220. What a deal. All this to keep 5 (for now) Cories alive. LOL. 

I just noticed something else. Can anyone else confirm or deny that the Cory's barbels in the picture I posted look to be worn down?! I do think they are.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

OK, just got my RO filter in. Now I have to do some reading.

Here's the plan. Use RO water mixed with treated tap water to get a neutral pH reading in a 25 gallon tank, 20 gallon tank and 10 gallon tank.

I'm treating all 3 tank with Acid buffer to move the pH to 7.2.

Any and all advice would be appreciated. (Ya, I know, leaving myself wide open with that statement, but I' desperate).

Bought some Bomix Beach Sand from Rona/Lansing and put it into a 10 gallon for the atropersonatus. No need to keep em in a 25; there's only 5 left. :-( Right now the tank is cycling and the sand is settling using clarifier.

Thanks.


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## Shattered (Feb 13, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your loss, hope everything works out.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

#$%^&*($%^&*

I've had my C. atropersonatus in the hospital tank now for 2 weeks, slowly lowering the pH to ~7.5 and under Melafix treatment. I stopped the treatment 2 days ago and was planning to return them to their renovated tank (silica sand OUT, beach sand IN). On some of them the barbels were slowly growing back so that looked promising.

I just took a closer look today and notice that on one of them the barbels were now completely gone! On top of that he had a small white feathery patch on the end of his left pectoral fin!!!! WTF is going on here? I've been doing 25% - 50% water changes daily to keep the tank clean.

I've started the Melafix treatment again (glad I bought the large size) and am also starting Pimafix. So far these guys have been treated with EM, Maracyn and Maracyn Two, and Melafix.

Have I over looked doing something here?

Needless to say, these guys are staying in the H tank/QT for a while still. This may mess up my buying the C. foweleri although maybe I can put them into my 10 gallon that's already up and running that I was going to use for some of my other fish. I'll have to think on it as it's a sand substrate and planted. I always liked the idea of a bare bottom for QT so if there are any buggies they won't get into the substrate. Any thoughts on this?

This is now getting personal.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Oak leaves are very good and used by many hobbyists. The price is right as well.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

BillD said:


> Oak leaves are very good and used by many hobbyists. The price is right as well.


The tannins fight fungus? I didn't know that. I have two large pin oaks in my front yard.

Thanks BillD!


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## twoheadedfish (May 10, 2008)

Cory_Dad said:


> I just noticed something else. Can anyone else confirm or deny that the Cory's barbels in the picture I posted look to be worn down?! I do think they are.


definately looks worn down, and I guess you found another with the same. What the hell is going on here?


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

If you've followed the thread you may have noticed that the silica sand was the suspect in all of this. Now I'm beginning to think that it wasn't.

Of course, the white feathery stuff I saw today (having a hard time getting a good look at it as the tank is wedged in sideways between 2 other tanks) might not be the same as in the original picture and this may be a completely different problem. It may also be secondary result of something else. What? I don't know. Parasites? According to Harold these were all treated before I got them and here they have always been in a tank by themselves. So where would they have gotten them from?

They only get pellets and frozen brine shrimp and frozen blood worms. Is it possible that the vector is in the frozen food?

Any and all suggestions and recommendations will be entertained.

Thanks.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

If it matters any Cory I had my guys on beach sand from Home depot. (Not all uniform but still nice) And they all have long barbles..

Gosh i hope they get better for you!

I am planning to go leaf hunting myself this weekend! ^^


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Ya, I've talked to a number of people about this and I really think the silica was a red herring (no pun intended). There was/is something medically wrong here. Either they came with the problem or picked it up here from ???, new plants in the newly set up used tank (scrubbed with vinegar, rinsed, thoroughly dried then cycled for a month), or something.

Don't think it's bacterial; would anything survive after full doeses of EM, Maracyn and Melafix?

Fungal? Maybe, but again, is that the primary or secondary disease?

Parasites? Possibly but other than the red blotch and white fluff I haven't seen anything like a parasite. But maybe I should buy some Levamisole too. Could it hurt?

Does Menagarie carry it?


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I dont know if they do but Ameekplec does for sure.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Great...

Another has got what the previous one had. It started out as a small 2 mm fluff on the pectoral fin and now look!

Started medicated with Melafix and Pimafix, stopped for one day during Levamisole and Przipro treatment and it jus6t exploded. See:










On the pectoral fin behind the leaf that's a huge blob of ...? mucus, gelatin, no idea. And look at the red! I'm rather surprised he's still alive.

EDIT: He's gone.

On top of that, when I stopped the 6" air stone to calm the current so I could get a better picture, look what was squirming around the bottom of the tank (it's in a vial now):










This just keeps getting better and better. I just paid the Rotto Rooter guy $380 dollars because the basement drain was backing up, soaking the carpet.

Sorry, it's been a rough day...


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I have a piece of mopani in my tank doing a great job lowering my PH. Very slowly. It takes about 2 weeks to drop from 8 to 7. Oddly enough if it gets below 7.2, my platies start dying.

W


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Well, here's an update on the situation.

I moved the remaining 4 back into the 25 and they seemed happy enough except for one. Two days later I noticed some redness. I figured that I might as well leave him in as anything I've tried in the past didn't work anyway. The next day he was dead. No white 'stuff' on him though.

The remaining 3 look quite happy (they should be, they have the whole tank to themselves) and love to swim down into the bubble curtain. At least they're getting exercise.

We'll see what happens.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Oh man, that sucks. I hope the others survive.

That worm, did you see it before or after the levamisole treatment? Levamisole is an antithelmintic, so it should have killed most if not all of the worms in the tank.

I hope the remaining trio do well


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Thanks for your post.

When the 5th one died in the QT I went numb and came to the realization that I just can't do anything for them when they get whatever it is. That's when I moved them back. If they make it, great; if not then at least I did my best. So when the 6th died it was 'just another day in paradise' <sigh>.

The worm was there after levamisole treatment. I never saw it before and it's a glass bottom tank! I removed it just because.

They are so cute when the swim down into the bubbles; it's like they're trying to swim upstream. That's why I bought them. They're natural habitat is white water. I do want to get some more but I want to wait and see what happens with these last 3. Today thay aren't quite as active. Good sign / bad sign, who knows. Time will tell.

Sorry to be such an Ea-or (spelling? donkey in Winni the Poo) but that's just how I feel.

On top of that we had to rip up the carpet because the drain keeps backing up even after it's been totally cleared. I think someone, on the weekends, is dumping a lot of water into the septic sewer and when we turn on the dishwasher, the water can't drain fast enough.

If it wasn't for all the nice people here on the forum I'd have probably turfed it all out.

Thanks all.


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## twoheadedfish (May 10, 2008)

stiff upper lip, fella. don't bail on us now.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Ah, that someone dumping copious amounts of water, maybe it can just be dumped down the driveway or something? Or employ a pump to pump it outside (to save the back).

Hang in there, and I'm sure they'll come around


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

No, I don't think that's it.

Here in Markham the sanitary sewer is separate from the storm sewer. Maybe someone with a host tub (my neighbour has one) is back washing into the sanitary sewer.

I asked him if he was having any trouble with back ups and the wife did mention it did smell funny in the basement but that their son moved back in in Sept. and is living down there. So.... I'll have to ask them about the hot tub though. It may be anecdotal but the last 2 times I noticed it it was on or the day after the weekend. We've had the dishwasher on several times during the week and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

I had put a backup flap into the drain after my hot water tank sprung a leak. We had previous put tar paper over the drain when the carpet layer put the carpet down (his recommendation). So when we had the leak the water couldn't go DOWN the drain. Maybe the flap is helping but it sure isn't a 100% seal.

The Roto Rooter guy suggested we seal the drain. I'm not too comfortable with that in case we get another flood.

Figures the builder would put the drain right in the middle of where we put the pool table, tv, couch and exercise equipment. Inconsiderate bastard. ;-)


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