# CO2 setup / problems



## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

Hey guys, so I've setup my CO2 regulator with an aqua medic Membrane and my settings were roughly 30ppm with 20psi with the Co2 turning off with lights.

I noticed in the last few days fish always hanging out towards the top of my tank and my plants suddenly dying. (almost all of them in very poor condition within days)

Ive lost some of my best fish which were extremely healthy including one of my electric blue rams.

Ive been reading about these PH controllers that are add-ons to the milwaukee CO regulators. Can anyone make any suggestions as to whether this is a worth-while investment?

In the meantime, if I shut off my CO2 (incase something is out of whack) will the plants completely die off?

Is there any resource in the Scarborough area or service that could guide me in the right direction?

Thanks kindly, for your input

Dino


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

How are you checking your CO2 levels? What are your other water parameters (NH3, NO2, NO3)?

What kind of plants do you have, how much lighting (and what kind) do you have? What about fertilizers?

Without more information, it is difficult for us to guess what might be wrong.

In my opinion, a pH controller is an unnecessary expense and luxury, but some people think it is worth the cost. In the meantime, if you shut off your CO2, your plants will not die off. If you have high light, I would reduce the lighting a bit, so that algae will not be encouraged (I would expect algae, however).


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

Embarassing as it may seem - I didnt know I had to check my CO2 levels!!  

I recieved very little advice/support when I made my purchase - I timed the bubble count, set the PSI to 15ish.

I have lots of various plants which I dont have the names to...

I have a 48" coralife compact fluorescent with 2 actinic and 2 daylight 7500K
as well as a dual T5 with colormax.

I will reduce the light until I can figure out whats wrong here.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

How did you determine 30ppm of CO2 if you were not measuring/checking it? 

Reduce the light for now, that makes sense for sure. Shut off the fixture with the actinic bulbs, (or at least disconnect the actinics if possible) they do little to nothing for plants and it sounds like it might be a 4x 55w fixture? That's a ton of light.

Turn the CO2 down, not off just down by 40-50% (if your plants get less light they use less CO2 - don't gas your fish with too much CO2). You didn't say 

You missed a few points to consider before a good decision about what to change can be made to help. 

What are you doing for ferts? If you are running a lot of light and a lot of CO2 and no food, your plants may be starving in need of nutrients.

Are you doing regular water changes? If not, do a good water change, 25% at least with water that has been de-chlorinated and if possible sat overnight.

Get more water ready for another change in a day or two if you can. Water changes when you have deaths is never a bad plan, injured or dying fish often give off chemical/hormone alert flares and generally distress other tank inhabitants since there is no river to wash them downstream and dilute them.

Do/did the expired fish have any external symptoms of disease prior to or after dying?

Anything odd you've noticed lately or changed recently?


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

Mr Fishies said:


> How did you determine 30ppm of CO2 if you were not measuring/checking it?
> 
> *Hey there.. I read somewhere that I should look for a bubble every 2 seconds or so, then it would be 30 ppm.. I probably did something wrong there..
> *
> ...


*My plants seemed VERY healthy one day and turned bad the next....*


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dinop said:


> Hey there.. I read somewhere that I should look for a bubble every 2 seconds or so, then it would be 30 ppm.. I probably did something wrong there..


This is incorrect. It really depends on how large your tank is, how much surface agitation you have, how you are diffusing the CO2 into your aquarium, etc.

For example, 1 bubble every 2 seconds is quite low, and might be good for a 2.5g nano (which is what I have my rate currently set at). However, for (say) a 90 gallon tank, you would be looking for at least 5-6 bubbles *per second.* How large is your tank? How are you diffusing the CO2?



dinop said:


> The people who sold me the regulator told me I didnt need food - that the C02 was enough - I should have done my homework before getting plants/co2


Please take a look at my guide for starting a planted tank here:

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11247

In it, I mention that plants need all three things to thrive: light, fertilizers and CO2.



dinop said:


> *My plants seemed VERY healthy one day and turned bad the next....*


This is unlikely. Plants do not suddenly become unhealthy over the course of a day. If there were any symptoms, even in a high light tank, they would take several days to manifest themselves.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

So my tank setup is 90 gallons.. I have turned off the CO2, and will buy the neccesary test kits to continue proper use. In the meantime, Would anyone know of someone with sound knowledge who (for a fee) would be able to assist me in setting up properly? I am in the upper beaches area.

I am hoping my plants do still have a chance at survival...

Many thanks to you all..

Dino


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dinop said:


> So my tank setup is 90 gallons.. I have turned off the CO2, and will buy the neccesary test kits to continue proper use. In the meantime, Would anyone know of someone with sound knowledge who (for a fee) would be able to assist me in setting up properly? I am in the upper beaches area.


To be honest, there is no "CO2 test kit" that you can really purchase (that is accurate), as most of them are based off on the assumption that carbonate is the only buffer that is present in the aquarium (which is usually not the case).

You are better off getting a drop checker with a 4 dkH reference solution (or some reference dkH solution, whether it be 3 or 5 dkH) to more accurately estimate your CO2 level.

To me, it looks like you just need to sort out a few things yourself, and your plants will be fine.

For starters, you can tell us:

How much light do you have?
What kind of lighting do you have (what kind of bulbs)?
How long are the lights on for?

We already know you have a 90 gallon tank.

What kind of fish do you have?
What kind of plants do you have?
What are your water parameters (temperature, NH3, NO2, NO3, PO4, gH, kH, etc)?
Do you fertilize, and if yes, what do you fertilize, how often, and how much?

Finally, if you can take pictures of your plants, it would be even more helpful.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

dinop said:


> Would anyone know of someone with sound knowledge who (for a fee) would be able to assist me in setting up properly?


Darkblade48 knows his stuff and he'll help for free. Sort of.  There's a lot of the information and assistance is already online here (and on some other sites) for your reading pleasure. The link he posted previously above is a sticky thread by DB48 that is a good starting point for planted tanks in general.

In terms of getting your CO2 setup...set up, another thread by DB48 goes a long way to demystifying injecting pressurized CO2.
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12271 (Including #7, more on drop checkers to monitor your CO2)

After you've digested those, fire away with your questions.

In the long run, you'll be better off if you invest some your time and sort it out and learn what you need to take care it of yourself instead of having someone set-up and service your tank - especially whoever said you can keep plants under high light and CO2 without feeding them!

You asked about water changes (WC), yes, do one as soon as practical. If possible, change 25% at least. You should be able to safely do 25% changes a few times a week while you get things sorted out in terms of what kind of routine you want to follow.

15% every 1.5-2 weeks in highish light, CO2 injected tank is not really enough change in my opinion. (not that you need to, but I change 50% a week) Does your current set-up allow you to do a larger WC easily (say 20-25G) or are you carrying 5G buckets back and forth?

--- 
DB has already covered most of the plant questions
---

In hope of helping to better assist you in diagnosing what's happening to fish in your tank, another post has a list of questions to be considered: http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11724

Don't stress too much over getting a test set in order to answer questions #3-6, if you get into larger, more frequent WC you can flush Ammonia and Nitrite out of the tank faster than it can build up and even help regulate your PH to a degree if something in your tank is affecting it over time.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Mr Fishies said:


> Darkblade48 knows his stuff and he'll help for free. Sort of.  There's a lot of the information and assistance is already online here (and on some other sites) for your reading pleasure. The link he posted previously above is a sticky thread by DB48 that is a good starting point for planted tanks in general.


I try my best 

I would have considered making the trip, but I'm already back in London, so no go there.


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

If you're interested in trading the actinic power compact bulbs for 6700k pc bulbs let me know. I have some that came with a coralife fixture that I intended to use for a planted tank awhile back but never did. They are brand new replaced bulbs from the original owner. Not stock coralife pc bulbs. They are a straight pin configuration.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

I will try to take photos as soon as I can... as for water changes I will do a 25% tonight and yes, it is extremely easy to do water changes.. I can do water changes daily if it helped 

I leave the lights on for 12h/day and they shut off along with the Co2. I dont have an airpump setup (yet)

I have a variety of fish (which Im thinking may also pose a problem) neons, guppies, electric blue ram, pleco, shrimps, 2 discus. 

If I could start all over I would not have this many fish. Not knowing very much about aquariums and listening to the local aquarium shops telling you that you can add tons of fish isnt good.. my bad.. 

will get those pics up!

Thanks,
Dino


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> I would have considered making the trip, but I'm already back in London, so no go there.


Sorry, in retrospect, it may have seem like I was volunteering you a trip...not what I intended.

I was trying to be clever and refer to your documentation online here and encourage DinoP to sort through the rough spots on his own. Every hobby has bumps in the road, learning how to go over and around them is the rewarding part IMO.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

dinop said:


> If I could start all over I would not have this many fish. Not knowing very much about aquariums and listening to the local aquarium shops telling you that you can add tons of fish isnt good.. my bad..


No it's their bad. Fooled you once (to get a sale or two), shame on them...next one is your fault.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

So I've just come home with some test kits. I dont think my water is doing good..

Here are the numbers I got:

PH: Between 6 - 6.4
NO3: 20
NO2: .25
Ammonia: 1.5
High Range PH 7.6
----------------

a) I am thinking to do a 25% water change - is this too much at once for my fish?

b) The plant fertilizer I bought is called "Plant GRO" with iron enriched plant fertilizer. I am thinking to do a water change, then add this as per the dosing instructions.

c) Seeing as I dont know if the CO2 is too HIGH or too LOW Ive turned it off until I can make sense of where the settings should be.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dinop said:


> So I've just come home with some test kits. I dont think my water is doing good..
> 
> Here are the numbers I got:
> 
> ...


No, this is not too much. Some people do 50% water changes. You should be doing enough water change so that the ammonia level is brought down. The nitrite levels are also high. Ideally, both should be 0. You can never do too many water changes, so keep carrying them out. Be sure to dechlorinate your water before putting it back into your aquarium.



dinop said:


> b) The plant fertilizer I bought is called "Plant GRO" with iron enriched plant fertilizer. I am thinking to do a water change, then add this as per the dosing instructions.


For now, skip out on the fertilizers, and just do water changes until the ammonia and nitrite levels are under control. The levels that you currently have are toxic to fish.



dinop said:


> c) Seeing as I dont know if the CO2 is too HIGH or too LOW Ive turned it off until I can make sense of where the settings should be.


This is fine. Your CO2 levels (from your previously stated injection rate) was likely too low. The fish that were gasping at the surface were likely being poisoned due to high levels of ammonia/nitrite.

However, turning off your CO2 now will help for now...once everything is settled down, you can try injecting the CO2 again.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks, Anthony.


I just got back from BA @ Scarborough and asked for a CO2 indicator (similiar to the one you made yourself) and they told me no-one in their right mind would have a co2 regulator without the PH instrument. 


Its insane how the opinions of some of the staff at these locations varies from one extreme to another. I have learnt my lesson I can tell you this..

Off to do my water change! I will post my newest test results tommorow..

Cheers, and Thanks again to all for the assistance in putting me (and my livestock) in the right direction!

Dino


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dinop said:


> Thanks, Anthony.


Glad to be of some assistance 



dinop said:


> I just got back from BA @ Scarborough and asked for a CO2 indicator (similiar to the one you made yourself) and they told me no-one in their right mind would have a co2 regulator without the PH instrument.


BA's actually does sell the drop checker (it's made by Red Sea, I believe). The instructions that go with the drop checker though, are incorrect (you should not use aquarium water or tap water, as it will invalidate the test results).

Lots of people use pressurized CO2 without a pH controller. I guess we all must be "not of the right minds" 



dinop said:


> Its insane how the opinions of some of the staff at these locations varies from one extreme to another. I have learnt my lesson I can tell you this..


Best to be wary of the advice you get from chain-run/franchise type fish stores. I'd trust the advice of fellow hobbyists over some of the staff at these places.


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

Hello,

Dino, how is your tank going on?

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
It's a web-page with some info about measuring CO2 level. It has a simple inline calculator and table with results.
This might be useful.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

As I have mentioned previously, the CO2/kH/pH relationship can only be used if carbonates are the only buffering agent in the aquarium. Unfortunately, this is not the case, so this relationship cannot be accurately used to determine the CO2 levels in an aquarium (i.e. you cannot just measure the pH and kH of your aquarium water and infer your CO2 levels).

This relationship will only work if there are *only* carbonates present as the buffering agent. This is the principle that a drop checker works on.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

Hey guys, so I am posting my newest results from tests conducted today.

No2 - 0
No3 - 10
Ammonia - 1
PH between 6.0 - 6.4
high range PH 7.4

I am thinking to do another 15-20% water change to rid of the ammonia in the tank.. also attaching some photos of the plants and aquarium


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I would definitely do a water change to bring those ammonia levels down.

Your pH readings are a bit funny. Is it between 6 and 6.4, or is it 7.4?

As for your plants, the pictures are a bit blurry, so it is hard to identify the algae. Perhaps BBA, diatoms or staghorn (hard to say...)


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

I have two bottles in my test kit. one sais "High range PH" while the other sais PH.

High range PH is 7.4
PH is between 6 - 6.4

Should I be using both these test kits or just one?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dinop said:


> I have two bottles in my test kit. one sais "High range PH" while the other sais PH.
> 
> High range PH is 7.4
> PH is between 6 - 6.4
> ...


You should only be using one of them. I believe there is a certain range that the high pH test kit is good for, and a certain range that the (normal) pH test kit is good for.

The API website says that the high range pH test kit is good for 7.4 to 8.8 while the normal pH kit is good from 6 to 7.6.

Where abouts are you located? Most of the water that supplies Toronto usually has a higher pH, but since you are injecting CO2, this point might be moot.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

Im at Kingston road/Bellamy
---------------------------

I did my water change.. and have the CO2 off until I can stabilize things...
I have been thinking of getting the PH controller.. Im battling between that and the red sea CO2 drop kit tester.. we'll see what happens..

I have afew Silver dollars in my tank and I have seen them nipping at many of my plants - They might be responsible for demise of many of my plants in my tank as well 


Will do water test tommorow and follow up 

Dino


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dinop said:


> I did my water change.. and have the CO2 off until I can stabilize things...
> I have been thinking of getting the PH controller.. Im battling between that and the red sea CO2 drop kit tester.. we'll see what happens..


I would still recommend a drop checker if you get a pH controller. Even with a pH controller, it is hard to determine how much CO2 you have in your tank without some guesswork. Having a drop checker will help eliminate most of this guess work, and once you figure it out, you can calibrate your pH controller to the appropriate pH and let it take care of the rest.



dinop said:


> I have afew Silver dollars in my tank and I have seen them nipping at many of my plants - They might be responsible for demise of many of my plants in my tank as well


That would do it.


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## dinop (Jan 31, 2010)

So I purchased the milwaukee SMS 122 ph Meter and CO2 drop checker.. What in your opinion is an optimal PH setting for a planted aquarium with fish?


Should I set the CO2 on a timer to completely turn off at night, now that I'll have the PH Controller? I have an airpump that runs one hour after the lights go out as well.
I will be setting up tonight 

Dino


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

As I have said before, the pH is really not that important in a planted aquarium. However, if you have a drop checker, you can check to see the pH when 30 ppm of CO2 is reached, and set your pH controller's set point to that pH.

You can set up your controller in one of two ways. Some people like to have the controller continuously inject CO2 into their tank at night, just to maintain the pH (even though this is not necessary). Others like to have their CO2 and pH controller turn off at night, as maintaining the pH/CO2 levels during the night is not critical.

You can do either.


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> As I have mentioned previously, the CO2/kH/pH relationship can only be used if carbonates are the only buffering agent in the aquarium. Unfortunately, this is not the case, ....


I might too simply this. Sorry for that 

As I understand, buffering agents are chemical addons that adjust PH of aquarium water. Why are you writing that it's not our case. Did Dino use some chemistry to modify PH level he had from tap water? I might miss somethings in posts. Or things again more complicated 

Thanks, Igor


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

dinop said:


> Hey guys, so I am posting my newest results from tests conducted today.
> 
> No2 - 0
> No3 - 10
> ...


Hi Dino,

Are you sure about your measures?
You might have ammonia 0.1 not *1*. Amonia level that is more 0.4 is toxic for fishes. Fishes definitely can't survive with ammonia level 1 ppm.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

igor.kanshyn said:


> As I understand, buffering agents are chemical addons that adjust PH of aquarium water. Why are you writing that it's not our case. Did Dino use some chemistry to modify PH level he had from tap water? I might miss somethings in posts. Or things again more complicated


As I mentioned, the pH/kH/CO2 relationship can only be used if carbonates are the only buffering agent in the water.

Then, I mentioned that this was not the case in the aquarium. Other factors such as phosphates, tannic acids, etc, will also affect your kH reading. As a result, you will get an invalid CO2 calculation, as you have 2 unknowns and one constant. You need two constants to solve for the single unknown.


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

I suggesting reading the Baensch Aquarium Atlas, Volume 1, so this whole fish keeping thing will start making a lot more sense to you. Then you'll be able to prevent problems before they arise, and in the event that something DOES go wrong, you'll be able to spot signs of a problem earlier, and can provide the key information before anyone has to ask for it, and you'll be able to get an answer to your problem much sooner.

Also, never trust a single thing an employee at a pet store tells you... No matter how much sense it seems to make, just don't trust it without doing your research. That's the first step to keeping a successful aquarium.


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