# Tank and filter upgrades



## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

I recently upgraded my 35 gallon to a 65 while moving down the road. the 65 is up and running, and my AC70 from my 35 gallon is in place. I kept the media in tank water, and it was only about 4 hours between take-down and getting the filter into the 65 gallon at the new house. 

I am replacing the AC70 with an Ehiem 2217, which I got second hand. The 2217 has been disconnected for over a week so I assume its cycle is totally broken. I set up the 2217 on the tank last night, whole keeping the AC70 running as well. As best I understand, this should fast-cycle the 2217. 

How long should I leave the two filters in place before I remove the AC70? I plan to temporarily move the AC70 to another new tank, and again use it to fast-cycle (this time for a sump). 

Thanks : )

EDIT: The fishies seem fine so far, though I did loose one lambchop rasbora who simple dissapeared during the move, poor little guy!


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## Y2KGT (Jul 20, 2009)

Did you clean the Eheim Classic 2217 before hooking it up to your new tank? And what media are you using in the 2217? 

You want to leave both filters running for at least a month and when you remove the AC70 you can still expect a mini cycle as the Eheim tries to deal with the added workload.
--
Paul


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## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm not familiar with the 2217 but if there is room take the media out of the AC70 and add it into the 2217. The media in close proximity should help your 2217.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I think the general rule is about 2 weeks having both running.

If you haven't cleaned the sponge in the ac in a while, it alone will be a great bio filter for a new tank. And if the sponge is good, I would move the bio media from the ac into the eheim and put new bio media in the ac.


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## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

Y2KGT said:


> Did you clean the Eheim Classic 2217 before hooking it up to your new tank? And what media are you using in the 2217?
> 
> You want to leave both filters running for at least a month and when you remove the AC70 you can still expect a mini cycle as the Eheim tries to deal with the added workload.
> --
> Paul


A month is a bit longer than I hoped, but I'd rather be safe than sorry! I didn't clean out the media, the 2217 was recently in use and it didn't look like the media was to bad when I looked at it. Hard to tell what is in there as it is just a big space with piles of stuff, but it looked like a sponge (which I gather is generally the first media in Eheim filters), some round rocks, and some of the ceramic disks. I didn't see any carbon type media.

There was a bit of space at the top of the canister, so maybe I will take 1 of the 2 bags of biological media in my AC70 and drop it on top of the canister for a bit. Or even just ring the sponge out over on it.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Not to be alarmist, but once an old filter has been left long enough for its bacterial colonies to die off, you could be giving yourself a lot of troubles if you use it without cleaning it first.

If you run it again, without cleaning it first, you could be allowing all the toxins from the dead bacteria and other unprocessed wastes it contains, into the new tank.

So it's great your fish are ok and nothing unfortunate happened. But I would never put a used filter on a new tank unless it was kept running in some other tank until I needed it.

Just as an example, a couple of times I have left a bucket with the rinsings from my filters in it, and forgot to water plants with it, which is what I usually use it for. Within just a couple of days, the stench from the bucket was unbelievably foul, swampy [sulfurous] and was just so vile I had a hard time not tossing my cookies while I dumped it. All that caused by decomposition of the waste products and dead or dying bacteria from the filters being left to rot. Same thing can happen inside a closed filter as well.

Plus, cleaning the old filter allows you to make sure there are no unwanted hitchhikers in it, such as snails or scuds, etc. Small critters like these can last a surprising length of time, if there is some moisture & oxygen available, and then they may move into your tank. But if there is no oxygen in the canister, you'd get anaerobic decomposition, which produces a lot of very, very toxic compounds, because there'd be no other scavengers in there to consume the dead critters.

I think the safest policy is always to clean an old or used filter before running it on a new tank, unless you are simply switching it from one tank to another with no dry out time in between.


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## Y2KGT (Jul 20, 2009)

Fishfur said:


> Not to be alarmist, but once an old filter has been left long enough for its bacterial colonies to die off, you could be giving yourself a lot of troubles if you use it without cleaning it first.
> 
> If you run it again, without cleaning it first, you could be allowing all the toxins from the dead bacteria and other unprocessed wastes it contains, into the new tank.
> 
> ...


Exactly why I asked the question.

How can you buy a used filter and not clean it before putting it into service on your own tank. You're taking a huge risk in my opinion plus you're starting with a dirty filter. You really should Google the media setup in an Eheim Classic 2217 so you'll know what type and where the media goes in this filter.

Good luck.
--
Paul


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

I agree with paul on the issue of cleaning the filter.. i just picked up 2 x 2217's... and i knowingly got them from a tank that is running but the fish have stopped eating.. so your darn straight i'm going to be cleaning and disinfecting mine for sure.. You have no idea what sort of dirt, disease and so forth is in those filters.... it does not take a long time to build up bacteria as your tank is full of bacteria as well so it propogates quite quickly.... 

as 1 member suggested you can use some of your filter media from the ac to help it along......

SHELDON


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Fish luva, I would disagree on the point that an established tank is so full of bacteria that an uncycled filter you started running on it would, in fact, become cycled quickly. 

It's true that an established tank will have some of the desired bacteria, so it should cycle a bit faster than a brand new tank. But based on an assortment of articles I've read over the past year, which all agree on this point, the vast majority of the beneficial bacteria we rely on for nitrification of fish waste live in the FILTER, not the gravel, or the biofilm, no matter where it is in the tank. One possible exception might be an undergravel filter but that's not as common these days and pretty much a whole other topic.

Once you have cleaned an old filter, it is not safe to assume it will become a cycled filter in just a few days all by itself. To achieve a fast cycle, you'd have to seed it directly from an established filter, either with media from the established filter or the rinsings from it. If you seed it, it will become cycled quite quickly. But even then, you really need to test the water to be sure it's handling all the ammonia that's being produced by the tank you have it running on.


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## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

Well, at the moment I have the 2217 and the AC70 both running. I checked the 2217 and the media is quite clean (rinsed some more just in case), and all my fishies are doing well. On my next maintenance (Sunday I suspect) I am gonna tr to seed the 2217 a bit more by squeezing from the sponge in the AC70. But I am not gonna rush getting the AC70 off the tank, I will give it a good 4 weeks, and even then make frequent checks for ammonia and nitrites once I pull the AC70 from the system.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I had a bad experience about the bacteria in the filter.

I had moved the contests of my 90 to another tank for a while to rebuild the 90. When I set up the 90 again, I had new substrate and water. Moved, filter back over which was running on the temp tank with all the fish and moved the plants and fish over and had some spikes that killed a couple fish.

The majority of bacteria is in the filter, but there is enough elsewhere in the tank to make a difference if it is suddenly not present.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Colio, sounds like a good plan. 

Pyrrolin, of course there are some bacteria in an established tank, some in the gravel, some in the biofilm, and they do make some difference. I was simply trying to make the point that you won't get a fast start to a cycled filter from such a tank, unless you seed the filter.

And I've seen so many posts where people have saved their tank water to use in a new tank, thinking the water itself has the bacteria in it, but the BB that convert fish waste don't live in the water column. They have to have a physical surface to stick to and colonize.

Nothing wrong with using the tank water from an older one in a newer one, so long as you're aware it won't help get your filter cycled.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

there is probably a tiny bit in the water but not enough to make any measurable difference for cycling, certainly not enough to cycle a tank alone. But there is a reason we don't like to do more than 50 percent water changes, but that could mostly be to make sure all the surfaces the bacteria are on don't dry out and kill the bacteria.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

True enough. There are no doubt a few of them that get knocked loose from whatever they were stuck to, especially during a water change. 

But I suspect the reason they don't usually recommend more than a 50% WC is to avoid shocking the fish with what amounts to a whole new swimming pool all at once. If the parameters are not quite close it can be pretty stressful, especially for sensitive species.

But it's better to do a really big WC than allow levels of ammonia or nitrite to spike at all for any length of time. The best idea I've seen for such cases is to do about a third, then another third, then another, until the levels are safe again. Less shock than doing the whole change in one go. 

I've had to do this twice and did not lose any fish or shrimp either time. Once it was because a big mystery snail died in a 5G and there were no shrimp to scavenge it quickly. I noticed all the nerites were perched on the tank rim when I got up that morning so I tested the water and discovered the nitrite levels had risen.. I did not even wait to test for ammonia. Found the dead snail while I was doing the WC.

Another time the filter failed while I was out all day, also on a 5G. On tanks that size problems can escalate so quickly, where they take much longer on bigger volumes of water. Did the water test because the filter wasn't running and again, nitrites were showing faintly. Tank was pretty heavily stocked at the time, and the filter itself was due for cleaning, which I think is why even half a day without the filter was enough to start nitrite levels rising. Both times the multiple WCs did the trick. Takes a bit of time, but worth it to save the livestock.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I like your idea of breaking up larger water changes into smaller ones, probably a lot less stress.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Glad the idea appeals to you but I can't claim credit for it. I read about the technique online sometime early last year, but I can't recall just where now.

It made quite a lot of sense to me when I read it. When I found I had reason to try it, it worked just as it was intended to. With the first change, theoretically, you're reducing the nitrite [ or whatever toxin is the problem ] by a third. Of course, it's not like we're using accurate measures of the volume changed, so it's an approximation. Second change, water is a third less toxic now, and is reduced by another third. Depending just how high the original toxin reading was, you might also wait a short time between changes, allowing a bit more time for the fish to adjust.

After the third change, you have effectively performed a 100% WC. But you've given the fish or shrimp not only more time to adjust, but smaller changes in parameters to adjust to each time. If you have very sensitive species, you could do even smaller changes, say a quarter of the tank volume each time. It would take a bit longer, but be even more gradual in its effects.

When I think about it, a 100% change in one operation wouldn't actually be possible unless all the livestock were removed first, which means catching and then placing them into water that's completely new to them, both quite stressful things just by themselves. Unless I had fish dying in front of my eyes, this multiple stage technique would be much less stressful, I believe.

I did water tests after each change, to see how the readings changed, which gave a fair picture of how I was progressing. Since I think of this mostly as an emergency measure, I use paper test strips. I know they have a rep' for being less accurate, but so far, they've provided acceptable indications. A liquid test can always be done if I want to be sure as possible I've reduced the problem to an acceptable level. I do wonder whether liquid tests are truly that much more accurate, mainly because all tests rely on how well a given person can compare the test result colour to the printed colour on the chart. I often wish the results could be shown in some type of graph or scale rather than colour gradations.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I use test kits for a general idea. If nitrites read 5, I know there is a problem, no way the test could be that far off. If I see just a hint of ammonia, I don't worry about it, maybe my sample had fresh poop in it, or the lighting, minor readings don't alarm me. I take into account the possibility of small errors in the test.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I have to confess, if I see any hint of nitrite, that worries me.. and I'll do a water change until the test says it's zero. So far, so good. I have lost very few critters to anything other than the odd suicide jump, and 3 Danios to dropsy, which might be related to water conditions but could be for unknown reasons, or even inbreeding. 

Overall, everything I have read this past year has said that more deaths that have no obvious cause are due to ammonia or nitrite levels being too high than anything else. So I try hard to make sure that never happens.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

nitrite is a different story, but with my ammonia test, it often looks like there is a tiny bit but its actually 0, well should be 0 as the tank is totally stable. I am able to see the nitrite test quite well and any shows up to me clearly.

nitrate, I barely even use the guide, if it looks a little dark, wc time.

That reminds me, I need to test nitrates and phosphates in my son's goldfish tank that gets quite neglected.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Same here. No help that not all ammonia tests are the same and the fact there are two types of ammonia. It can often look like there's some ammonia when there is actually nothing to worry about..


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## Babs (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm in the same bot as the OP here in that I'm going to upgrade my AQ and start using an Eheim that has been sitting unused for several years.

What is the best way to clean the Eheim? I was thinking of just using a strong aquarium salt solution.

Also, do I have to throw away all of the media or can it be cleaned as well?


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## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

Hey Babs, 

Media does generally need to be replaced periodically. if it is possible, ask the seller how old the media is, and when they last cleaned it. If this is not possible, you may be best off just replacing it and not having to worry about it. 

To clean the media without killing the bacterial colonies, be sure to use dechlorinated water. If the filter was disconnected fro a while, the bacteria is probably already dead. In this case, you can probably just rinse it off a few times. I don't know if adding salt to the water would be of any help. Maybe.


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## Babs (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks colio,

it's my own filter and it's been sitting around for about 5 years so I'm thinking everything is long dead. 

I'm going to replace all the sponge/floss type media but was hoping to be be able to keep the hex/bio media.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

If it's been out of service that long, I'd be inclined to simply soak it in full strength vinegar for awhile, say, overnight. That would not only dissolve the hard water deposits, it will also rehydrate and soften the old biofilm. It makes both mineral and biofilm deposits much softer, so they are relatively easy to wipe or brush off. I've never used a canister, nor seen one open, but what I do have is a CPAP machine, because I have sleep apnea, which has a plastic reservoir that moistens the air that passes over it before I breathe it. So it will build up mineral deposits and bioflim at amazing speed if not kept very clean. Learned that the hard way, now I'm very careful to keep it clean.

When I first got the CPAP, I was pretty lazy about cleaning that reservoir. Long before I got back into aquariums, and I was amazed at the amount of not only mineral deposits that built up inside the reservoir, but the sheer amount of rather gooey film, biofilm, in other words, even though the air is filtered before it enters, and only blows one way, from the machine to the breathing mask, it still grew a lot of gooey film in just a few days. Quite disturbing to find that first time. 

Because it's used to breathe, I had to be really careful what I used to clean it. Eventually I tried soaking it in vinegar. I found that worked really well. It not only dissolved most of the hard mineral deposits, it softened what was left of them and the biofilm to a point that it needed only a good wiping with a cloth, or a toothbrush, to get into the crevices, to remove all traces of the buildup. I found the softened gunk will not just rinse out, it needs to be physically wiped off. 

So I see no reason why that would not work on a filter. The reservoir is made of plastic, just like a filter. I think a gallon of vinegar is less than four bucks, so even if takes a gallon of vinegar, it's still pretty cheap. And if you like, you can save and reuse the vinegar later for cleaning floors or something like that. 

If you have any concerns about bacteria once it is clean, a rinse in a bleach solution would take care of that. But after hours soaking in vinegar, I doubt it's necessary to bleach too. Not too many organisms survive long periods in really acidic conditions.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Fishfur, I also use a CPAP machine. The solution is very easy for your problem, only use distilled water. Distilled water is 100 percent water, 0 minerals and such, just 100 percent pure water. You will just have to rinse it out once every few months if that and that is just for any dust that happens to get into it.

I have a little bit of mineral deposit on mine because a few times I have run out of distilled water and used tap for a night or two.

I get 4l bottles of distilled water for up to $1.50, sometimes cheaper. You can buy it almost anywhere you can get bottled water, just look for the one that says distilled water.


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