# Modelling clay



## ScarletFire

If I use modelling clay to make pleco caves, would it change the water parameters or degrade?


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## Mlevi

"modeling clay" covers a huge spectrum. From flour based 'dough' clay to oil based, to polymer based etc. You also get the clay nowadays that remains moist for a long time until u put it in the oven (not sure what goes into it). I wouldn't take a chance with anything that's set to remain moist or doesn't require baking. That would probably leech into the aquarium, although I've never personally been inclined to try.

Sugarglider had some really funky shaped pleco caves on his last run. I think he was sellin' em for $5 bucks or so. Unless you need to make some custom shapes, or if you need a large quantity, It wouldn't even be worth making your own.

Just my opinion.

Al.


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## Zebrapl3co

Well, anything that does't require baking (or firing) will eventually melt away in your tank.
As for the alway wet clay, I have some. Seems OK. I did ask if the material is ph neutral and they said yes. Also, when you buy the clay, there are different varieties and colours as they can be baked at different temperature. The one I bought can be baked at 300F. Which is low temperature. So once it's done, it's kind of soft compare to the teracotta pot. I think I should have gotten the 500F one.

Anyway, when making the cave, try very hard not to trap any air pockets. Try to make the cave in one shot. I made the mistake of making it, didn't like it and collapse the thing back into a ball and start over. But that little process managed to trap some air pockets in the clay. When it comes to baking time. 1/2 of my batch blew up and cracked.

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## ScarletFire

Where did you buy the clay from? I'll assume that https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A191B004535&NBReset=3 and https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A191B004609&NBReset=3 isn't recommended.


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## Ryan.Wilton

ScarletFire said:


> If I use modelling clay to make pleco caves, would it change the water parameters or degrade?


Go to a local pond or stream and collect some rocks. Build them caves with these after you've boiled them and tested them with vinegar. If they fizz don't use them, if nothing occurs, rinse them and build your caves.

As far as clay goes I wouldn't use it although I have seen it done, this was glazed however and I have no idea if the person stock survived or not, I wouldn't risk it.

Another option if you really want to build caves for them would be to get a hold of the saltwater concrete putty stuff. It comes in smaller tubes and is relatively expensive though ($15-$20 for a 6" tube). This stuff's very malleable and cures naturally underwater.


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## Zebrapl3co

ScarletFire said:


> Where did you buy the clay from? I'll assume that https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A191B004535&NBReset=3 and https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A191B004609&NBReset=3 isn't recommended.


I have heard about people experimenting with them, but I never found out what happens afterwards though. So I can't say, but I didn't like it as there is the potential to melt when wet.
I think I got my clay from this place, it was a long time ago: http://www.tuckerspottery.com/tkps/index.php

There is an alternative though. I am currently using epoxy clay and it's working great. I really like the stuff. You basically mix two type of clay like substance and they react, harden and it's rock solid after it dries. It's alot more expensive though. I got my epoxy clay from here:
http://www.sculpturesupply.com/list...Free+Form+Earth+Epoxy+Putty&cat=Epoxy+Systems
er ... !? ... well, they changed the brand, but it's the same thing. Call first, they don't have much instock and you need them to order. They used to come in a variety of colours from the other brand.

Edit: oh and this stuff is the same stuff that some saltie guys used to clue their corals together. So it's pretty safe for aquarium.

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## mr.wilson

I would go with hypertufa (cement & peat). If you add 10% silica fume to the cement mix the PH will be neutral and it will set quicker. You can also seal it with a crystallizing agent like Penetron or Xypex.


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## Ischemia

Ryan.Wilton said:


> Go to a local pond or stream and collect some rocks. Build them caves with these after you've boiled them and tested them with vinegar. If they fizz don't use them, if nothing occurs, rinse them and build your caves.
> 
> As far as clay goes I wouldn't use it although I have seen it done, this was glazed however and I have no idea if the person stock survived or not, I wouldn't risk it.
> 
> Another option if you really want to build caves for them would be to get a hold of the saltwater concrete putty stuff. It comes in smaller tubes and is relatively expensive though ($15-$20 for a 6" tube). This stuff's very malleable and cures naturally underwater.


never boil rocks. if there is an air pocket inside the rock it may explode when heated/boiled. same reason you do not use river stones for a fire pit


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## Fishfur

Fwiw, if you are testing rocks for calcium or lime content, I think CLR does a much better job than vinegar will. It reacts much faster and much more strongly, as well as to smaller amounts of calcium that might not react to vinegar noticeably, but could over time leach into the tank anyway. It rinses off clean with plain water and I've never had an issue with rocks I've used it on in any of my tanks.

I built some nice caves using pieces of slate and epoxy putty. There is a brand called Oatey's, Home Depot has it. Much cheaper than the stuff sold for aquariums, about a third of the price, but it's safe, vouched for by a number of salties who have used it. It's not as nice a colour as the grey or red of the aquarium stuff, but for the price, that does not bother me. Ordinary slate is very easy to break into smaller pieces, and it will fracture nicely into thinner layers quite easily. A hammer and a slot screwdriver is all you need and you don't have to whack it very hard either, but wear eye protection, in case of flying chips.

I should point out, there is one drawback to consider. Oatey's cures much faster than the aquarium stuff does. The aquarium specific stuff remains workable for, I think it's about fifteen or twenty minutes, but Oatey's hardens in just a couple of minutes. 

So you have to make sure you know what you want to put together and have it all in order before you mix the two parts of the putty together. You can use other kinds of rock too.. doesn't have to be slate, it's just that slate is so easy to break into various size pieces. You could build a nice cave out of those polished river pebbles, I'm sure. Just make sure they're not going to fail the acid test.

Zebrapl3co, that's amazing stuff. I never heard of it before.. and shipping aside the price is not that bad for the pint, when you consider what you pay for most epoxy products. I'd guess you could make some pretty amazing things with that stuff.. though if you prefer fast cures, the overnight wait might be annoying .

The polymer clays that cure at home oven temperatures are supposed to be non toxic and there have been a number of experimental projects made that have exposed the cured clay to extremes of temperatures outdoors and humidity, including under water projects. I have not checked into poly clay for some years now, but I used to be a member of the Southern Ontario Polymer Clay Guild. I know some have made aquarium ornaments from it, mainly for things like Betta bowls, but I don't know how well they held up over time. 

In theory, it's just a type of plastic and should probably be fine underwater and the MDSA says it is completely non toxic once it is properly cured. But it has plasticizing agents in it that can cause unpleasant skin reactions for some people, and I'm not entirely sure I'd be confident of it being safe for fish, even when properly baked. But that's just me.


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## Fishfur

I'd think hypertufa alone would not only be quite a challenging media to use for a project like a pleco cave, I'd think you'd need a fair bit of experience with it before trying to make something like a cave. Plus, every hypertufa project I've seen tends to be very rough surfaced, which would not be the best thing for a pleco cave either.

I'd never heard of silica fume before. It was very interesting reading about it. I'm curious, where would a hobbyist buy the stuff and how would he use it ? From the few articles I read, it sounds as though it has to be cured in a very specific way.


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## malajulinka

I *am* the experiment! I have a tank full of polymer clay zombies - they've been in there for over a year and are doing quite well, and don't seem to bother the shrimp in the tank one bit. For pleco caves it might be a bit expensive - but I do remember buying a giant hunk of it once for a project, so it's definitely an option!


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## ScarletFire

What about Sculpty? It's around $3 per small clump. It has really bright colours after it's baked, but it IS pigmented. Would that be an issue?


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## Ryan.Wilton

I'd go with no pigments as they could leech into the water (much like tannins from drift wood). I bought a 5lbs block of modeling clay (non toxic, no additives) from Micheal's for like $20 before. I wonder if that could work for you?


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## mr.wilson

Fishfur said:


> I'd never heard of silica fume before. It was very interesting reading about it. I'm curious, where would a hobbyist buy the stuff and how would he use it ? From the few articles I read, it sounds as though it has to be cured in a very specific way.


Some people cure concrete with Co2 and steam, but it isn't necessary.

White metakaolin is an alternative to silica fume. They are mining it in Alberta now. White portland and white metakaolin make a nice white material to pigment.

http://www.metakaolin.com/metakaolin
http://whitemudresources.com

You can buy silica fume from concrete specialty shops, particularly ones that deal with concrete counter tops and furniture etc.

Fibre glass fibres can be used as a binding agent. It makes the cement easier to sculpt while making it stronger and free of shrinkage cracks. If any fibres are exposed you can use a torch to burn them off.

You can use concrete pigments and they will not leach out. You can also paint the cement with latex paint that has been watered down. You can use sponges and sprayers (plant misters) to apply the paint. You only need black and white paint to get all combinations of black, white and grey. Stipple brushes are another good tool.

If you work the surface with a wet sponge, the texture will be very smooth and fine. You could make a sand casting if you want a specific shape. Alternatively, a balloon could be used to form the cave.

Here's a picture of a three headed caiman I made out of plaster and concrete. I made a silicone mould of a stuffed caiman and a second mould of just the head with the mouth closed. I used vaseline as a mould release.


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## Taipan

You're a man of many talents and disciplines. 



mr.wilson said:


> ....Here's a picture of a three headed caiman I made out of plaster and concrete. I made a silicone mould of a stuffed caiman and a second mould of just the head with the mouth closed. I used vaseline as a mould release.....


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