# All about Pico Reefs-article, pics & vid



## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Hello all, found your forum from links on google as I was researching pico reef work on the web.

some of my friends from nano-reef are on here thats neat.

I have seen no formal articles written specifically about pico reefs other than the work D. Knop did with his palmtops in Coral Magazine from Germany. guessing this was in 2003 or 4...imagine how much updating there is to do.

Here's the US legacy of the tiny reef...google
"The history of pico reef biology"

the square reef is totally sealed and does not require topoff. The specific gravity is the same at water change time weekly or bi-weekly as when the water was prepared, and the sealed lid is liftable for this service. The vase is partially evap restricted, and at one gallon has a topoff interval of one ounce every four days. If topoff is a hassle, then just eliminate it from your design equation.

the video, showing the sealing mechanisms and aged pico reefs:


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## Windowlicka (Mar 5, 2008)

Welcome, and a great first post!


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

hey thanks man I was reading on one of the threads you were in where you guys mentioned paris hilton's reef, +1. you know he doesn't even dose that thing to make it look all pink and bright like that! I think bare bones approaches like his (and w larger tanks that can keep a fish or two) are ideal

You guys saw the picture of the 160 gallon reefbowl on reefbuilders.com right? lol that was rock n roll large size, a guy in florida did that bad boy
Nice to meet you
B


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

Welcome!!! I'm thinking about setting up a pico tank myself. Seeing all those is making me want to set it up sooner rather than later.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

thats cool man they really are the easiest tanks to care for but there is a catch or two...these are the aged turbo versions who else would post anything less lol

it took well over two years for the square tank to get that dense and the vase pic is about 5, here is how they start, empty, and stocked -slowly- with aquacultured corals we get for 5 bucks at the lfs. if you can keep it going till 2015 then viola!  we think stocking slowly is what sensitizes the small frags into allelopathic submission. See that red gonipora frag I was growing in the middle pic (bowl)? it never did submit and had to be traded off to texxx58 from lubbockreefclub.com as it started to sting those two frags next to it, a hydnophora and an acathastrea. simpler models keeping mushrooms and some candy cane coral are far easier to diagnose and run just a heads up. 

in that article, those build pics aren't mine, that's my friend Mark Krieg from youtube who improved my design greatly by drilling the access lines into the side of the vase! his photoset shows the ideal way to build one, in my ten year old setup the lines just run over the top lip. The reason I have to use these shapes is to get the evaporative sealing down, standard square reef tanks won't work as well without developing saltcreep. these dont...

really though, its not hard and lots of people have different ways of doing it this is just one simple way that works. for water changes, I just siphon out one full gallon into my kitchen sink, the reefbowl sits on the countertop.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

well stated. id also say additives can make a huge difference for the aged pico reef and they can be used to stave off pH declines unless one wants to do heavy changes of water nearly daily to keep those ions free to the coralline, and not bound up by bioacid generation in detritus reduction (where detritus accumulation is a real concern in aged picos). I have found that incredibly packed pico reefs years aged nearly have to be dosed to prevent algae fouling, its a strange connection to this kind of concentrated environ also like chemical warfare cessation, wierd stuff unique to tiny reefs. 

you are right though about coralline growing well with just water changes, cloon's reef on nano-reef was just being talked up about that. with their tanks being a little larger, the intervals they spend in between water changes simply buffer the pH impact via dilution more than chemically speaking like I recommend in the tiny reef. also, try and find one gallon reefs that have any coralline, id be impressed to see more than five. one thing we spend a lot of time chatting about is how radically different reefs become the smaller they get.


check this out:
my dosing regimen for all these is 1/3 or so capfull of C balance, everymorning strictly before lights on to catch the low pH phase of the respiration period. monday=calcium, tuesday=alk, wed, thurs, fri etc then feed heavily with cyclopeeze saturday then 100% water change sunday. this is all at one gallon. if you took a 20 gallon reef, and added 20x my 1/3 dosing it would wreck it immediately how amazing is the 
-lack- of scalability at times!


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

not sure what you mean, still unclear/misunderstanding. are you answering why the upscaling for dosing doesn't work or why a pico reef should not be dosed, just clarifying...

simply stated I was meaning if you dumped 7 capfulls of C balance blue bottle into a twenty gallon reef tank, at any respirative interval, you'd kill the whole tank and burn the flesh off every coral. Yet, when that exact ratio is applied daily to a gallon reef for nearly five years, that's -barely- enough to keep the system from crashing from lack of ion considering water changes are weekly. To me, that is empirical evidence of stark differences in how the corals affect the container they are in.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

?



also, at 200 gallons thats a morning dosage of about 66 capfulls, that's enough to fry your 200 gallon example if you built it up over a week, to 466 capfulls a week. scaling=not the same between picos and large tanks, ever.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

brandon4 said:


> check this out:
> my dosing regimen for all these is 1/3 or so capfull of C balance, everymorning strictly before lights on to catch the low pH phase of the respiration period. monday=calcium, tuesday=alk, wed, thurs, fri etc then feed heavily with cyclopeeze saturday then 100% water change sunday. this is all at one gallon. if you took a 20 gallon reef, and added 20x my 1/3 dosing it would wreck it immediately how amazing is the
> -lack- of scalability at times!


100% water change? Calcium and Alk dosing a day apart?

I know picos are cool, but those misconceptions are not misconceptions IMO.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

yes the water changes and dosing is what made those pics possible...





there is a lot that needs tweaking in Al's statement of the anaerobic N cycle and how that works in small tanks but no problem I wasn't being mean or anything, everyone has their opinion on how these work. if your theory was correct no one would measure nitrate in their tanks, itd all be gas expelled free and clean. this was the crux of the deep sand bed debate of so many years ago...

regarding pico reefs and their stability and amount of work, just remember the guys with the pics and the vids get first dibs on disseminating the accurate information


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh you were thinking those pics aren't mine!!!! That explains your position much better.
Yes, im the owner and taker of all those pics and the vid etc. I hadn't met you before so there is no expectation for your to believe me, but we could chat further about the specifics of these pics and that might sell ya. 

it wouldn't take a federal agent to find consistencies in how I type vs the article I referenced



why doesn't everyone's tank just magically evaporate all the nitrate waste? do you personally have zero nitrates after a month's running, and how many people do you know are able to fully, anaerobically process all their tank's waste? wow if so, that's cool. Id like to read their threads if so. Skimmerless tanks only pls, that's cheating. by your standards the biofilter does all this work.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Brother> Zeovit system involves chemical flocculant binding, that's not anaerobic cleavage of the nitrate molecule, its the same as skimming essentially. you were telling me a functioning biofilter on a tank will remove nitrate as a gas. it had no bearing on my post actually but it was wrong info so I joined in. I don't want inaccuracies in my theads, no one does right?

Macro is organic binding, again not the same. skimming is removing physically the protein before it degrades, in no way do these handle gas production in the way bacterial metabolism does, why are we even talking about this lol it doesn't address anything I wrote in my thread but I sure love clarifying the science! you may have low nitrates, but it's not from anaerobic metabolism we can continue if needed. I simply remove my nitrates with water changes, like everyone else. the only key is I can do 100% changes and not need any of the stuff you just mentioned.

The sad tradeoff is I don't get to keep fish and you do, thats a true fact about pico reefs...

the pics are important to me because they show, along with the vid, the ten things I listed are complete and total fabrications stated by large reef keepers and those who have not yet found a method to prove otherwise, there are several who won't even believe the pics are real.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

No I don't believe that, maybe we really did just have a minor understanding. I claim you can remove nitrate by either organic binding, physical removal, or anaerobic extraction via microbes, and that the latter never happens in a pico reef in such a way it helps you deal with nitrate. wierd how we got cross, if we were at a bar one of us would be ponying up a brew for the other lol

*"Bioacids, lets examine it for a min, biological filter within an aquarium take up ammonia and nitrite and give off nitrates which should be converted to nitrogen gas. the bacteria consume Oxygen, and lower the tank oxygen levels, which would lower the water PH. that happens in every system, salt or freshwater alike, small or large.
in fact in a larger system you have more of this to deal with" *
*when you wrote "should be" converted to gas I thought you were meaning they will be, in my tanks and in most others, so I chose to respond. Achieving filtration solely through gas liberation is a rather uncommon method, I was trying to show it doesnt automatically happen as you put it thats all

I didn't come here to argue (too much) moreso to show that a lot of reef knowledge is bought, sold and traded as solid and in fact it's wrong and a result of lack of experimentation. Its wrong, it needs updating, etc. my pics and vid exist to show the top ten pico reef myths are just that. I guess the only way to counter that is to set up a vase, follow the instructions, and see what happens in a few years lol
B


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

snapped this two days ago, my brown digitata is growing like an antler horn. when it covers the top of the system, I'll have to light more from the sides to hit the lower coral. 
This is about 20 genera of mixed LPS and SPS, that should be laser clear evidence of a very stable and easy to care for system, 10 mins total work each week.

Here are the main things people do wrong with tiny reefs:
1. they feed them in between water changes. the correct method is to wait, and only feed 5x the normal amount of frozen feed just before a full water change that rips unused portions right back out of the tank. I usually feed heavy cyclopeeze (which incidentally doses I) two hours before a water change, giving the shrimps and crabs and stars and corals time to grab it all out of suspension. In the interim during water changes, the surface areas of the tank which are the actual biofilter in the reefbowl will handle the waste generated by coral digestion, not just food particles rotting in the water as usual. Pico reefs tend to have fewer organisms to take up tiny food particles, so more is left to bacterial degredation and thats another source of primary acid production that is unique to pico reefs that are aged.
2. they only do partial water changes. Full water changes are ideal. Reefs are exposed to air for hours and hours during tidal ebbs on islands, this is not uncommon


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

ha! we were indeed off track on the nitrate thing thats funny. I wonder how many international wars are the result of poor semantics or spelling lol 

if you miss one week's change, it is bad for the reef but not lethal. Im going to new york soon, by way of many skiing trips and it will miss a change. It will simply have more microalgae on the glass to scrape, thats all

buddy you make big leaps in a thread meant for small tanks 

I do full water changes -and- I rely on a funtioning natural biofilter, you are sounding pretty off again. The biofilter converts the ammonia to nitrate, which you were correct about. You were also correct, although it wasn't previously written by you, that picos don't have enough diversity in oxygen gradient (not actually worms, omg here we go) to handle an all-gas liberation approach. That brings in the full water changes.

Most people change water partially, and leave partially in the system oxidized wastes such as nitrate and phosphate (-ate meaning oxidized by the biofilter) which are algae food. My systems are the oldest pico reefs on the planet, with no green hair algae or cyano. Thats because a full water change keeps algae starved.

This works a lot better if you stop assuming Im lying to you about something. Just watch the vid again, pausing as needed very slowly lol and type in question format rather than declarative statement format...


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

To the keen reader, our little diddy will show that we both do similar work on the tanks. You have a method of chemical and physical ways of dealing with nitrate, I have an all physical method, and with real science I built something that works to grow SPS. Coloration is always a challenge, remember we are comparing tanks that are opposite ends of the spectrum and frankly if no one knew my reefs were palmtop Id say the below pic looks better than your reef, I just checked lol although you have a great looking high cost system anyone can have. I wanted something unique, that I invented, that made guys like you flare up and flare down constantly in public touting information drawn from, and incorrectly re-assembled, from year old web posts. denial has always been the best gratitude. 


good luck sounding like you know what you are doing with information not found on a simple google post (and even then it was a little off?) thanks for the pictures, guidance and innovations you are providing to my thread to support our knowledge of what it really takes to keep reefs in small containers...when these epically fail, I'll consider your bucket method. I bought the coral as brown missy, for 5 bucks. 

Lets talk about how this pic, in a system half as small as the reefbowl, is as good as your large SPS reef so don't hate too much lol


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## mandarin (Apr 8, 2010)

Nice 2 Person Thread


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

wow you spoke like someone with more experience.


Im not mad man, remember I just showed up with my little globe and how it was ran. I didn't show up on the attack, we can agree it was a semantics and spelling issue.
I really like these debates, they either validate or totally invalidate the science and this causes evolution for our hobby.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

Hey mandarin whats up thanks for lightening it up I really like you guys  

Im thinking as the thread progressed, people's arguments got stripped one by one and now just me and this dude are left in the digital octagon lol

*anyways, good luck on the brown SPS corals ? LOL*

this is considered inflammatory, but I aint in third grade either. Drawing critique out of the woodwork is what I do for fun, anyone can go back and read the tone of the thread to see who initiated, and responded to assertions. Thank you though, I feel without this my subject would have been a little boring!


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

the science is in not having to do it everyday, or point #7

the salt mix I use is up to the LFS> I don't even make my own change water. sometimes they use reef crystals, sometimes they use ESV salt which is mass produced junk imo, the dosing and full changes keep the chemistry within the proper limits. again, at this point I need to see your work to the contrary, and not just what you can parrot. 

please make specific assertions that you are challenging. that's fine if you think me doing a 100% change is bad, I think without a lot of technology and someone else's ideas the way you see a reef tank working wouldn't keep it alive for long. At least we know you support partial changes and not full ones, itd also be nice if when you wrote sentences they had a clear endpoint.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

So you guys are saying I can keep a Nano reef like a betta bowl? cool where do I sign up?

What kind of light do you recommend ?

do I really need anything but an wooden air stone to move the water?


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Of those fishes you are proud of, you aquacultured zero, paid for all, and some are tangs right? When the tenth page of this thread comes if we aren't in a good ethics debate making you talk in circles Ima be mad. 



and me using premade water from a lfs to save me mix time makes you feel vindicated, and not look like a noob stabbing around in the dark for insults, how?

Tbemba thats exactly right thanks for stopping in to make some poster heterogeneity up in here 

make sure you check out that article it explains a lot, the history of pico reef biology on google. nowadays if you built one LEDs may work better for the coloration and the heat issues. You can literally use any light source for a reef that doesn't overheat the tank. There are ways of dealing with excess light too. 

See my first open topped shot on the far left, the current one. Down at the bottom is a white piece of plastic, glued above an expensive acan frag the bowl has produced, to shield it from light induced bleaching! The acan, in the same photic zone as my sps, gets the amount of light it needs which incidentally is polar opposite of my ugly brown montipora lol


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

I thank you for the views you generated! 155 is okay for me on the first day. Sorry about how my fish comment made you feel that was unnecessary ammunition I took from your post, apologies.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

premade water in pico makes a lot of sense.. I did not follow everything yet, need to get home to watch videos.. I guess there's no active flow in this thing? How about temperature control?

I don't mind adding an easy to care for reef tank in my room.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ray that's right, I have to check the sg and set it usually with the addtion of water, that's right on. they set it high, I prefer .022 or .023 for picos just my opinion. 

When they switch mixes, and substitute lower or higher ion concentrations per mix it simply does not matter in regards to precipitation, my levels of 1/3 cap allow for that variance thanks for asking man. when I took the square tank up to half a cap per day, at half a gallon volume (making the ratio 1000 capfulls per week for a 200 gallon tank) I was sure to mix my own reefcrystals (which one would think would overpower the water table, not so). The reason why all this works IS the substance of new aquarium science, I can't explain it all but what I do explain is repeatable and has been the core of my pico designs. I put it out in public to get more ideas on why it works, and why it makes contemporary reef tank knowledge look a bit outdated. Pics only lie if you photoshop them, and vids don't lie period when shot in crappy 8mm format, I ain't good enough to photoshop that and trick the masses lol 

To produce the only documented tabular acropora form in any pico reef, and 99% of all nano reefs, I chose to keep the alk and CA++ at astounding levels just below precipitation thresholds. I haven't had to test water for these levels in years, I now have the dosing fully memorized for any gallon or 1.5 gallon system and can tell what it needs from just looking at it and knowing the water change regimen. This is helpful because when I coach people to set up the vase they don't have to test the water at all, for anything other than temps and sg at water change time. 


conix thats what happens when I type in bulk the details get wrapped up!

there is plenty of flow. the vase is an airstone, and pump meant for a 75 gallon reef. the lid on the reefbowl simply holds in that splatter that would normally cause saltcreep, and it seals the evaporation partially making the vase evaporate less than a 65 gallon tank. 

it can be knocked over easily, this is a risk. and the glass is thin and not meant for tanks, I don't lean flashlights up against the side of the tank or anything!

Thanks for recognizing the point of the thread, how to get the most for the least input, now we're on track. both tanks have the same heaters, the preset ones that are submersible. The square tank is not simple like the vase, it must be fanned from behind to not overheat, sorry I was only working with 2001 technology we didn't have reef lEDs back then en masse 
the vase runs at ambient temp, meaning if you keep your house below 80 degrees it will not die because of heat!


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Sounds like a great way to keep a nano reef water changes are easy and like you say get it pre-mixed and you have all the work done for you. Man I can have a amazing reef for the price of sw and a light!! none of this checking perimeters and dosing this and that and drilling holes in tanks!! no real need for Refugium and flow rates and pumps. God it sounds too good to be true.

I forgot no $$$ skimmer either


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Tbemba if you didn't sound so sincere Id say you were a skeptic too  your summary is spot on, and sure to draw more criticism which should get me into that 10 page range.

Perhaps this video would help, its Mark's, a gentlemen I haven't met in person he lives 3000 miles away from me in PA, im in Lubbock Tx. He set up a vase as his first gallon pico reef and improved it radically by drilling the vase in ways I never thought of. We set this up only via youtube comments and email:






posting this earlier may have helped Ray save some face lol


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Every pico system in this thread has live rock and natural filtration with no fish thats right man. 



Ray I formally agree to partially agree with you. Honestly man!


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

No I have been reading alot about nano's and have been looking at them for over a year. I have been on nano reef

I really want one


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

now lets cover the why's...that usually comes next in this line of discussion.

Why set one of these up at all?

five more reasons:

1. if you can learn to live without fish, you can have all the other organisms a twenty thousand dollar reef would feature, in small populations of course, for about a hundred and fifty bucks. 
2. If you have ever wanted to build a reef that is transportable, to take to colleges, schools, universitites for exhibit and the furtherance of marine biology to the public, this is your only current option.
3. A specialized field of science will be needed if you want option #2. The science of pico reefing is self-perpetuating when done with pure, accurate science. It is wholly different than large reefing as Ray helped me illuminate, so it is indeed a unique science uncommon to marine biologists and web forum gurus of the late 90's, where most people end up getting their pico reef information.
4. You WILL have something unique to inspire, or offend, others, which again furthers the hobby rather than keeping it stale, predictable and retail oriented.
5. This is the cheapest way to grow SPS coral, colored or not, that has ever been devised and that's appealing to people with limited space and budget, but not imagination. Depending on the corals you stock, the colors can actually become quite diverse and supported without a zeovit method and all that cost/tedious dosing.

public display picture, 4,000+ people seeing the reef and discussing it w me:
http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=24233


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

brandon4 said:


> now lets cover the why's...that usually comes next in this line of discussion.
> 
> Why set one of these up at all?
> 
> ...


I agree

what type of light do you recommend?

Can I buy an over the counter light from a place like lowes?

I assume the live rock is the filteration? no


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

I personally guarantee you its more than changing water out. if that was the case we wouldn't have 6 pages. 





Ray you must be joking. The only thing that sends a tank into a new cycle is antibiotic treatments, extremes in temps, whatever it takes to kill nitrifiers. Water changes do not. 

The science that pays you should not, and obviously doesn't, pay you to quote reef tank biology. You are still writing as if some parts of this are debateable and unproven. I already told you the full water changes are to prevent leaving any oxidized waste in situ, Ive repeated it like three times. 

#3 is why you are an eternal skeptic. Without a specialized science to separate fact from fiction, the first ten falsehoods would prevent all discoveries of the final big five reasons why picos are legit. I said its a specialized science because in ten years no one has beaten my system for designing portable tanks, and each time I show up in forums hoping someone will all I get is the round and round, with repeaters, ya know?

the light I recommend is the coralife mini aqualight if you can still find one, $35 bucks!

the live rock is the ammonia filtration, not the nitrate filtration which is the point of his well articulated contention. For that we, and most other reefkeepers just do wchanges


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

science can also be using pics and vid, and timing of events that other people mistime, to accomplish what was previously thought impossible, still touted as impossible in the face of demolishing proof, and still something new to people even though I invented a technique for growing SPS corals onto the sides of small flower vases in 2001. Oh its not pHd level science, just really utilitarian. You know, something actually bubbling you can touch see and feel not just read on a paper in theory format.

I say science because when people wrote, and write, and rehash even now in this thread the first ten things I listed-- it took somewhat of an organized, repeatable and consistent opposing effort to refute it. If that's not the definition of a science, then at work you really are that important and consulted for your spot-on technicality. 

 still having fun not mad.
B


page ten is coming Sir, get ready to justify all those fish you like to rip from the ocean
--->


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Do you sell a system?


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

actually man that may work better! you'll be giving it planktors from an established, diverse system and it will translate that life into the small reef. 

The water changes would have to be a little more frequent since the water is not as pure as fresh made Id guess. I know a few gents who even actively pump water from their established tanks into tiny picos as a closed loop! You could probably do something neat joining the two ecosystems. Having never owned a large reef I couldn't take that route...

Tbemba no I currently do not because Wal mart, where I get all the stuff, currently has the best prices. I may very well do it in the future though for an income, with an e book to guide the vase. For now I just do it all for free, to change an industry bored with large tanks and hardly any repeatable explanations for success or failure of a reef tank.

I could be wrong in any of the biology scenarious I've listed, all I know is this is what makes the vases repeatable even if its faulty concepts. I've been chewed up on many NR threads before by real marine biologists who write books (aka mike maddox, google him) clearly not everyone agrees with me so don't think I think that. to me this is like locker room shoving its just good man humor without detractors this thread would have died on page one. this forum has fire and spunk rock on people


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## UnderTheSea (Jun 2, 2008)

brandon4 said:


>


Nice, first thought was a reef contained in a skimmer 

Put a nice neck on that and a cup and you have some nice filtration and a reef all in one hahahahaha.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

wish we could find a way to turbo-boost that splatter effect...even though it does pull out fragments of shells, bits of waste and feed it doesnt work well enough to prevent the nitrates from climbing steady, its merely a fractional fractionator lol thanks for the heads up 
B


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## Abner (Apr 7, 2009)

great thread brandon i'm sure you have given ideas to tons of people on here..thought for a moment that you were picking apart ray there but seems you guys were just argueing the same point from different angles lol...he from the larger tank view and you based on your expertise in the pico field. i was reading the thread this afternoon imagining you guys on the podium lol. keep on bringing the info i think more than a couple people on here are gonna want to start up something like that.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

ever since mike got a hold of me in nano-r.com i get a little touchy on the debates cuz it takes me a while to figure out how serious they are lol... could soon tell Ray is a snake oil salesman preventer at heart, not lacking the guts to hash out a good run if he sees fit, so he is in the cool kids club ~

wish I had ideas for the large tanks everyone likes, so far its just for vases which is such a restrictive market>

Nowadays others have the good ideas, take hamster bottle topoff for example. Smartest pico innovation of the last five years someone thought of it on nr.com...
not everyone wants a vase who wants a gallon reef, we talked about how a single tap can knock one over because the footprint is the size of a coffee cup, while the equator of the bowl is the size of a volleyball, its a tip waiting to happen (the mount of my light presses down to help prevent this but its still a risk).

So for the crew who like gallon tanks, maybe those fantastic all glass curved ones mike guerro sells on nr.com that look like miniature biocubes, you need a way to deal with the daily evap. So these kids take the ball out of the end of a hamster bottle and mount the nozzle tube to stick in the tank...will only release water when the water line drops due to evap and stop when the end is breached by tank water! multiple bottles can be used to get a week out of a completely open topped tank!!!

So, the hamster bottle is a cool notion someone else thought of youd like to know, had you heard of that one!? For me thats false claims number 2 and 7 from page one being completely thrown out by work others are doing on a large scale and have been for a while. Many of the solutions have been out there for a long time now, its just the untruths have been here longer. These ten claims -will- fall I guarantee, or I will not stop typing. you are all pico hostages like my brown antler monti lol
B


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ray man you are a tricky guy to understand. Yes it works perfect, or the pics would have to be fake along with the vids, topic covered. something has to explain the mood stuff in you... Its well that I like you, your tone changes drastically between our handshaking pm's and the public posts but I'll roll along. 

The bacteria do not die without immediate ammonia. This is a common myth for marine tanks, and its why you buy stuff in a bottle instead of getting it free from the air. 

Nitrifying bacteria are in your eyeball right now, feasting on the lacrimal fluid and awaiting nitrogen they will not get. Each population that arises, in ANY fluid, non-antimicrobial body of water, will bloom first and then wait days or weeks for ammonia without dying. In college I tested and plated various bacteria including nitrosomonads and nitrospira genera in our entry-level microb. class which actually had pretty decent gear for being a small college. the professor let me do a lot of my work separating, id'ing and colony counting for genera our books said were involved in the nitrification cycle and there are many more species than just the two found on the ingredients label on the additives bottle...inside the bottles there are more than just the two listed!

we found them in puddles of water along the street that had gasoline rainbows slicked on the surface, now we have cleared up cycling for all tanks, not just pico reefs. When people buy aquatic plants for a planted tank and they die off in two months, but not immediately, its the same thing. Organisms are used to having tough times, and they develop the body stores to deal with it until such feeding time comes, and if it does not, they will die. 

Nothing kills your bacteria except antibiotic medications, or temperature issues that are really extreme, say above 90 or 100 degrees, they are bullet tough. You can even take a fully cycled marine aquarium, drain it and fill it with freshwater, and the internal bacteria will not die, they are euryhaline, able to live in both fresh and salt w.

I don't have to test for water parameters, but I did in the beginning. the bowl runs like clockwork and like a good auto mechanic I can just look at a reefvase to tell what it needs, everyone who gardens develops the intuitive touch, no biggie like you are making it. 

Carbon. To use that would be a step away from bare bones, it would require pumps or extra space in the bowl, my original design works well per the pics, so why change it? The water changes are replenishing things as much as it removes them, you are focusing on nitrate too thoroughly.

One more round:

Every nano on this board except you builds up nitrates after a month's running no matter what filtration you use. I know there are pro systems with anaerobic nitrate digesters, or oversized refugiums that accomplish this, they are just so rare Im betting there are none here, hope Im wrong I need some new subject material for nanoreefblog anyway. 

Activated carbon is useless for nitrate removal, still builds up. I suppose NO3 pads could rip it out, but thats for you bells and whistle guys who can't do it a simpler way. Fed normally, and stocked like we do, everyone's nano reef tank on this site not running the magic zeovit method will read a nitrate ppm ranging 2-10 (if you are lucky, likely 20 ppm) ppm if this is untrue someone other than Ray speak up. If so, you have an ideally stocked, low fish, high water turnover rate with a megaskimmer. I'll be waiting to hear from someone who can run their tank to zero nitrates (nano reef) after one months running. Heck if you have one I'll do an article about you. 

So, since 100% of people on this board with a nano reef have to change water to avoid algae fueling, I just take that interval where they would drain 20%, and I drain all of it. My water changes are faster than theirs, because one gallon for me is complete. 

Nobody on this site would opt for partial changes if they knew:
1. full changes are harmless
2. partial changes leave partial waste and only replenish partial micronutrient ions
3. if it was as practical to do so. Nobody likes changing all ten gallons at once for a tank that size, but if they did, their reefs would live longer. The vase makes it practical to do a full water change, which is ideal for all reefs, but too impractical for all but the vase. 

As clear as Ive written, I do fear the sheer bulk will generate more statements from you but Im ready, I have my carpal tunnel typing gloves on lol
B


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

Thanks for trying to berate me in public about the seahorse question asked to you in pm. I actually already know the answer, was trying to be friendly to you and make you feel okay for acting like you have because Im forgiving like that. Now that you changed tone again, I must tell you I never looked at your tank one single time. I can profile a man's reef indirectly by what he types, dude I can even guess your fish loading because I know what people buy when they are in the reef checkout lane after getting ideas from someone elses web posts. You buy nemos and hippos and gobies and foxfaces and yellow tangs and maybe a vlamingi if feeling really adventurous. was trying to be cool to you and help you back up, but your seahorse comment means you aren't humbled yet so lets do some more. Go get a couple of your friends to join in if you have any.

Now, don't pm me anymore. Your constant questions, repeating as they are, take me closer to the ten page mark where I will thoroughly destruct your system that takes fish from the ocean proudly for a short lifespan, provides no innovation to the hobby, and is in fact is running without a shred of your understanding. Additionally, people on this board are running your tank, not you. If your internet connection goes out, get out your pen and paper because no one will be there to correct your misguidances.

Again, write in question format. No I don't agree fish poop will kill the tank, here's a picture of the half gallon sealed reef, getting half a capfull a day of the additives, with a fish, who ate cyclopeeze just fine in the system. Of course I don't advocate fish in a half gallon tank, but if one was going to attempt it this is the best reef to do it in. The fish was only in the tank a few weeks to test his endpoint nitrate effect on the refugium (could it pull out enough to keep NO3 at zero-no).

Most everything you are assuming is being written in such a way that you think Im lying about something, please lay off dude we aren't covering new ground.

http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=31921

this pic is to show you that a fish, which is more poop than two h. zosterae, lives just fine in the tank concerning the tanks health. The fish was removed after a few weeks testing of water params, please note that before you get ready to battle what's coming to you in four more pages. Three cerith snails, which ive had for a long time now, poop 3x per hour more than two hippocampus' would in two days.

I don't mind answering your questions Im just getting tired of proving something that is so rediculously well known based on the links, vids and history I've over-provided to you.


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## UnderTheSea (Jun 2, 2008)

You want to know about water changes from "the" expert, read the following. 

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley

We have performed 80-90% water changes on customers FOWLR and REEF systems with no ill affects and have done this on more than one occasion. The reason I don't say 100% is there is live stock still within the system and the entire tank cannot be drained then replaced.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

And when you read it, please don't show up at marinedepot posting anything in his professional thread that would lower their standards. Ray, lets not talk, you win buddy totally.

Randy Holmes Farley is my most respected reef chemist who writes on the web. In 2002 he answered many questions for me about the bowl, old threads are in ReefCentral archives if anyone gets bored, and this is some of the collective internet help I was referring to in the last paragraph of my article. I have to read his articles about nitrate, ion support etc about 20 times to grasp them, his work is unendingly helpful and really humbling. 

Thanks for posting man-- once somebody reads Randy's work there is no reason to check elsewhere, its the best. I haven't read that article Ima bout to though!
B


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Yep thats an article I will have to read 20 times Randy is soooo cool!

You know I saw a thread from him supporting the vodka dosing carbon method which was suprising, I thought he'd write it off but in looking through that thread it was apparent he saw something worth the time~I like following Randys work to validate new trends. Ron Shimek too, check out this thread:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic107228-11-1.aspx


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

buddy we were talking about carbon for filtration, the burnt black stuff. And, if even that was a misunderstanding Im telling you I don't want to respond to you anymore. Nicely, from here on out, no matter what we misunderstand or try to rehash, no responses from me for you. You can fill up this thread with any diatribe you like, we'll sift through it to find some kind of helpful discussion or debate. Unofficially banned from acknowledgement=Ray.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

@ UnderTheSea

Have you guys ever set up one of these systems Randy mentioned where hardly any water changes were needed? I have a friend with a 320 gal and he doesn't do them for like 5 years, but I wonder if the sheer size is simply the reason why and not some unique mechanics, what do you think? Do you think these unchanged tanks could go a decade without a change, to really test the closed design?
B


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## UnderTheSea (Jun 2, 2008)

I really don't want to go into battle here but can provide a little of our DT.

We run a 500g setup with ~1000+ lbs of rock, 250 lbs of carbisea aragonite, Pentair 40w UV, 2 different Pentair Micron Filters as well as running two towers with Carbon and Zeolite. We dose Vitamin C, Phytoplankton, Calcium, Magnesium and Alk daily (and all manually). We are under skimming utilizing a Euro-Reef RS250. Water level is maintained through an auto top off (RO/DI). Our water changes are completed ~ every 3-4 months and do a 140g change (utilizing 35g barrels). We don't really do the water change due to any parameters falling out of line but to replace the trace elements for which you really can't dose. We also heavily feed our systems as well with a wide variety of food several times daily.

I don't believe there is any one way to run a system. I have a client running his system on well water (with no filtration before the water hits his tank) and looks just as good as anyone making use of RO/DI in the city. It is what ever works best for your particular setup. I do believe it would be easier to not perform a water change on a coral only setup, but you would still have to somehow extract any die off or over feeding by means of mechanical filtration. And you would have to replace any of the trace elements consumed by the live stock. I believe it is the larger system to more natural filtration that will get away with less water changes, with minimal mechanical filtration.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

man I wouldn't battle that sounds like a nice setup. Too bad the tone got rough was really here just to type alot of unique biology, no harm in a little back and forth I guess.

Agreed on the variety of success, theres a nano tank from Germany I believe on the Coral magazine website and its a tank with a single frogfish, and enough marine alga to qualify as a planted dutch system. That, truly, and naturally, could easily be a zero nitrate system while all along processing internally (what the skimmer doesn't pull) the full waste spectrum of the frogfish and the waste of the tank organisms- to me thats radical. The leaves of every red and green wavy leaf in that tank look like they are grabbing for no3 to keep up with that much plant biomass. And like you said coral only, this tank would nearly qualify as that with just one fish and all that uptake. Thats really seeing an eye for balance, a single fish and a forest to process it all inside, +10 to that guy. In this case the aquarium looks as if it is the refugium...

here it is

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/aquarium-portrait-kingdom-single-fish


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*hey*

we created a cool thread about the top ten Pico Reef Myths that got some very diverse responses so some tests of the micro science can be seen. when this many people are successful with them it shows the trend is getting stronger not weaker... just a cool update to matters pico/nano from a different perspective...

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234596&st=0

heres a cool growth chart from last january until now:


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

so that's a six month growth pic spread, how did that occur in the absence of bacteria?>



okay after a month you weren't embarrased enough, and the thread wasn't getting much interest anyway so I'll respond for a while until I get fed up, promise to keep up okay?


-Water changes have nothing to do with bacteria, the bacteria stay on the wet surfaces in between water changes. do you really think this or does your trolling have literally no extent>?

-science? yep it is. one way pico reefs have lent NEW KNOWLEDGE to marine biology as a whole is through the study of allelopathy. Marine scientists thought for decades that even a few species of coral couldn't share such a small body of water for even 1/4 this long. By keeping roughly 15 genera in the same vase approaching five years that old notion is shattered. If everyone was like you and only spent the $$ to have a big reef, innovating nothing, then our knowledge would be 10 years dated whereas marine scientists still would understand the basics of aquatic bacteria so in any case dated knowledge is still really good for you. 

-what did you think of my nano reef thread, do you feel misinformed any more now? Freakin el fabuloso responded in that thread, and I designed every topic to garner the information from tons of people who keep pico reefs solely to refute what you say, not having ever kept one.

Do you feel like a winner Ray! THanks for responding to my boring thread, kind of. Now say something else bub Im still here. go read about pico reefs in wikipedia for a sec. I don't have to worry about your trolling marring up that article, there is some guy on there who keeps the edit button under his control and whatever stupidity you type will be quickly erased with the original content put back. 
B


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Sure Im a biologist, I didn't twiddle my thumbs for four years lol. Only general though...the marine part is only shadetree 


my personal insults are distracting I can see that, I'll be specific.

-how do water changes kill off bacteria in the system? how did the growth occur shown in my pics if bacteria are constantly dying?

-please respond to the comment about allelopathy, what you know about it, and how that is not a unique contribution given by the methods pico reefers post on the internet?

-what did you think of several people who actually keep pico reefs responding to your diatribe in that nano-reef thread I posted? I suppose all those people are misled, posting fake pics too>?

-did you understand that in that LONG article posted a few pages back written by Randy Holmes Farley that most of these water change techniques could be managed to be very effective in either exporting wastes, or importing ions? That one big 100% change did the most work of them all, when done frequently, if the animals inside could handle that stress? How do fijian reef flats stay emerged for hours and hours without losing communal bacteria or killing the corals? They adapt, which is what I got my bowl to do. at least I can explain it, and repeat it man 
B

Try to respond to the sentences above, then you can write some high level spelling insults thereafter


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

YES a breakthrough! An opinion not stated as fact.

I accept that man, you don't have to like the way my corals look or how that brown montipora spreads across glass.

PLease respond to the actual questions I asked you, m not through eviscerating you yet.

also don't be too hard on the pico reefers, it was just a few years ago everyone said they wouldn't grow at all, not just good enough to replicate the look of your 65x tank. Give me a year I'll have blue tort figured out then you can nit pick something else lol


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Keep it friendly and informative and free of personal attacks guys. This is a friendly forum for free exchange of ideas. Trying new things is the way the hobby expands. Some ideas are assumed not to work, some ideas just won't work because the science prohibits it. But some things will work given dedication and pushing the envelope. So let's try to remain objective, give soundly justified criticism where warranted and keep it free of the personal nasties.

BTW, High power LEDs and a small thermoelectric cooler = sexy blues and reds.

I bet I could rock a killer 1 quart pico reef using my 4 channel profilux doser and a "liberated" PCR machine from the lab for cooling/heating. Oh, and a magnetic stirrer for good measure.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

New idea is always good, pico reef with simple maintenance will be a dream come true in this hobby.

I would have problems with the glass vase tank.. how do you clean that thing?

By the way, 100% water change doesn't kill bacteria, not much of it is in the water itself, so brandon was correct in that.

Typical recommendation of small percentage water change on a regular basis is mainly to keep water parameters steady, not because of loss of bacteria.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

will do man.


yes a lab stirrer is a great idea it can be used to control your reef circulation from below just don't turn it up over setting 2 on the stir or the heat!

That's cool you have experience with LED's Ive only had pc and that's the reason fanning is always required on the half gallon setups for me. I suppose with pc's there would be no heat issue and far better spectral control...


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

*picos*

don't want to get too involved in this back and forth... 
BUT...
On the nano-reef pico forum, there are some people with amazing, stable picos - notably Parishilton - a guy in Bangkok. His corals look great. Amongst malev's and several others.
fyi.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

ha, no LED experience here - I'd try to pawn off fabrication to someone else with the technical skills.

A simple DIY stirrer or two positioned under a false floor (like eggcrate) would be great flow control. I've thought about a pico reef, but the maintenance would kill the tank before it even got going.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ray since we made amends on the other thread ill be nice here lol


yes there is bacteria in the water column, but one piece of live rock has hundreds of thousands of colonies MORE than any large water column simply because the surface area of the live rock is so much greater than the cubed measurement of area bacteria can float around in suspension in a reef tank.

Thats why when people use UV sterilizers, in either fresh or saltwater, they don't suddenly get ammonia spikes, see man? Thats because those bacteria are killed, or removed in my case, but the ones on the walls and rocks do all the work. THis has already been covered Ray on like page 2...
B


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

Made a new video about how to grow and remove plague levels of coralline algae from the pico reef aquarium. I like that look, not everyone does. a huge portion of people who wanted it can't grow it anyway, yet a vase grows it wild so feel free to pick and choose which elements may apply to your system. some just give up on the endeavor and declare coralline growth outdated 

I use the intense coralline algae growth over several years time to cement the rocks together, so that when the bowl is moved around in my car things do not fall apart as the reef wall is stacked bottom to top in the 10 inch vase and not zip-tied, its coralline cemented just like a real reef, that's why I like to deal with all this purple growth. I have not yet seen any picture on the web of rock substrate being melded by coralline, just spots on the wall. Hardcore coralline growth in some of my macro shots I can take when the lights come on today will show something like welder's beads crossing among gaps where the rocks would have to be pulled apart were they removed...

Now that my muse Ray is gone there may not be a whole lot of arguments, we can just talk about one way that -works- if someone is having trouble with their nano. now we can just talk what works and what does not, but most importantly, with pics and vid where the -real- talking happens.

As ray mentioned my water changes may not be for everyone, but with them I get:
-no individual testing of water params. I watch threads where people have to tweak magnesium, alk, pH, etc in an ever-changing and inconsistent balance, full water changes prevent this need.
-no bad algae growth, ever, while tanks of all sizes are plagued by it and always will be across the web
-consistent growth of 99% of all commonly kept corals excluding goniopora
-no skimmers, external filters, plumbing lines etc
-the exact same running consistency, for about 260 weeks means I wouldn't change my way if someone paid me lol

just an idea
B


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