# Water PH.



## js97 (Jun 11, 2008)

So.. i was wondering what, if any, do fellow aquariasts do to LOWER the PH?

My water comes out of the Tap @ 7.6 and i guess because of rocks, it will go to almost 8! 

except for water changes, i can't seem to keep my ph low? (closer to neutral)

anyone else have this problem?

or is it just my rockscape?

thanks


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

Mine tap is 7,6 and my tank is 8 and I left it.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

If you want to lower it, I'd recommend using one of three methods:

1. Use RO water. It will soften the water.

2. Use peat. This will soften the water and also lower the pH a bit.

3. Use driftwood. Also softens your water, and will lower the pH a bit.

Unless you're going for breeding conditions, as long as your fish are happy, I wouldn't tinker with pH.


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

So I could use peat? It stains the water, which is an appearance I like.


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## js97 (Jun 11, 2008)

ameekplec. said:


> If you want to lower it, I'd recommend using one of three methods:
> 
> Unless you're going for breeding conditions, as long as your fish are happy, I wouldn't tinker with pH.


Yeah eh?

I just feel like 8.0 is a little high ? Especially when i clean it with my hand in the water, it comes out dry!

i figure it thats bothering me, imagine how bad it is for the fish?


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## LoneWolf5050 (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm no biologist, but I think the way fish experience water is probably unimaginably different from how we do. Plus they have a slime coat that your hand doesn't. So I wouldn't sweat it.

But do take the higher PH into account if you are measuring ammonia levels! There are two kinds of ammonia present in the water, and only one kind is harmful, and the higher the PH, the greater the amount of harmful ammonia as a proportion of total ammonia. Any decent ammonia test kit should be able to explain this and give you tables to figure it out.

--Julian


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

LoneWolf5050 is right about the ammonia being more toxic at higher ph in the tanks. Also temperature plays a role as well. 
Ammonium (NH4+) occurs at a ph lower than 7. This form of ammonia is virtually non-toxic to fish. 
Ammonia (NH3) occurs at a ph above 7. This form of ammonia is highly toxic to fish and can be removed.
Levels can be reduced by any, or a combination of the following:

lowering stocking density
reduce feeding
improve general husbandry
improve biological filtration use of ion exchange materials to remove ammonia selectively
dilution by water change
Adding plants also helps greatly in reducing ammonia.

For more information see:
http://www.ornamentalfish.org/association/code/quality/ammonia.php


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

What kind of rockscape do you have in there, and what kind of fish? If it's africans, then you're fine (to the best of my knowledge), but if you're keeping amazonian species or asian species, you might want to reconsider the rockscape to favor their water conditions.


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

Calmer said:


> LoneWolf5050 is right about the ammonia being more toxic at higher ph in the tanks. Also temperature plays a role as well.
> Ammonium (NH4+) occurs at a ph lower than 7. This form of ammonia is virtually non-toxic to fish.
> Ammonia (NH3) occurs at a ph above 7. This form of ammonia is highly toxic to fish and can be removed.
> Levels can be reduced by any, or a combination of the following:
> ...


That's like hte zeo-carb stuff? I keep that in my filter.


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

Yep I believe it is.  It shouldn't be used in planted tanks as the plants want ammonia. It can get soooo confusing at times  It's like pulling in 2 opposite directions lol.


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

We need an emoticon of a head pop. 

Claude's tank isn't heavily planted so I got a full amonia pouch in there for her. Mind you, she's the sole occupant along with a large colony of huydra.

I need to clean my keyboard. I spilled liquor in it last night...


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Sunstar said:


> I need to clean my keyboard. I spilled liquor in it last night...


Sounds like my kind of evening!

The plant - ammonia thing is a delicate balance too. You need a lot of plants that grow fast and the other available nutrients to allow for growth to occur. But you'd also need a good source of ammonia, so you'd have to keep it stocked to a certain level.

Usually, you shouldn't need that media. You should just have it in case of emergencies (used in concert with prime) or as a media on a qt tank w/o an established filter (ie something you need to get running real quick). Just keep up with the water changes and you should be good.


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

I err on the side of paranoia. I am scared I'll kill my fish. I don't want htem to have miserable lives so I've dedicated much time to them. Which is hwy I spot things like limpets, hydra, planaria, other microscopic fauna....


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

This stuff about Ammonium versus Ammonia wasn't in ANY of the aquarium books I bought. One was published in 2007 and written by the editor of a freshwater aquarium magazine and he didn't mention it. Wow. That's a huge factoid.

Is it worth doing a RO-water dilution just to get a PH of 7.0? I have an RO-water unit at work, and I could start toting some home.

W


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## Gargoyle (Aug 21, 2008)

I spent years dealing with tap water at a pH of 7.4 to 7.6, and a love of rainforest dwarf cichlids the books said needed a pH around 6.0. I'd argue that all that matters is your water hardness. I bred wild-caught Apistogramma njisseni (from a rainforest habitat with no measurable hardness and a pH in the fives) at pH 6.8. But, they were at 30ppm test kit hardness.
I consider pH largely meaningless. People who buy acids and such are wasting their money, although a sudden pH drop can be a spawning trigger for some species. If the water's well-buffered, then most pH reducers are temporary at best, and harmful.
To lower hardness, three tricks worked. Messy, time and SPACE consuming but effective was putting a small bale of garden peat moss into a 20 gallon tub. You sink it with hot water, and remove the endlessly appearing floating garbage over a 10 day period. You'll take out pounds of it, for the garden. You finish up with about a foot of peat on the bottom and clear water on top. The water is tea coloured, and interesting to measure. If I added 140ppm tap water, in a short time it would fall to 30 to 50ppm. Downside? More water changes with this as the water starts out with dissolved organics in it.
Technique two - collect rain or snow and filter it. I lived in sight of the highrises of downtown Montreal, and never lost any wild-caught Amazonian or West African fish to rain/snow water, tapwater mixes. Downside? Droughts and the enormous hassle involved.
Solution three - reverse osmosis. That changed everything and was the best, although I only got my unit a year before I moved, after ten years during which I bred 60-70 species of rainforest cichlids, tetras, catfish and killies. 
As for the tangent the thread is on about ammonia, ammonium doesn't usually get mentioned because it is non-toxic. I keep a fishroom with reasonably stocked tanks, and have done so for years. I use charcoal to remove meds, once or twice a year when I use them. I have never bothered with ammonia resins or any filter media other than something for bacteria to colonize, and sponges.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Thanks! That's all incredibly useful experience and knowledge for me.

W


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## jewel-stavroula (Jan 11, 2008)

I would invest in a co2 dispenser.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Some good info here - and I agree with most of it.

I just wanted to second any opinions of leaving your pH alone.

The majority of fish will be fine living in water with a pH of 6.0-8.0. If you fall within that, I wouldn't worry about trying to change your pH.

There has been lots of reports regarding pH and breeding as well, but to give my experience: temperature, healthy water and healthy fish seem to be more important. I keep all my tanks at 7.0 and have successfully bred fish that apparently need pH levels of 6.0 or so to breed.

Fluctuations in pH are often said to be bad as well - and I understand this argument, but in the back of my head I think of some of these rivers in South America that have massive pH swings due to flooding, rain, whatever without killing off all the fish. 

That said, massive changes in your gH/kH/TDS will effect your fish a lot more than a slightly higher pH (those three, of course, will effect your actual pH!).


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## Shattered (Feb 13, 2008)

My vote will fall with "Leave the PH alone" ; if a high PH is your concern, then look at fish that thrive in the range that you have. 

My tap comes out at 7.6, and the fish don't seem to have a problem with it. The platies and danios have both spawed several times.


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