# sick betta - please help



## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

This betta is my friend's daughter's. He's over 2 years old and kept in a 3Gal aquarium with gravel filter, and 2 black neon tetras. Recently I was told that he started hiding inside cave, sitting there just resting most of the time, and not being able to move quickly when it's time for feeding. 

I took him to my house, hoping to figure something out for them. I've taken some pictures, and there's some white thing coming out of his belly. I thought it was fish poo in the beginning, but it's been there for days now so it's either some sort of organ or a worm.

Also, his bottom lip is all white. Not sure how this happened. I checked for Ick and Dropsy and I don't think he's got either of those.

I have him in a 2.5 gal tank with a sponge filter at the moment. When I had him in my Shrimp tank inside a breeder box he was trying to reach air most of the time, so I figure he's looking for oxygen rich water right now. After the move to 2.5gal with sponge filter, he's resting at the bottom of the tank and occaisonally move. He's sitting right next to the Sponge most of the time.

Any suggestions are appreciated. My Fish Health book doesn't help much at all 

My friend's daughter (6yr old) is so attached to this fish and she doesn't want to lose him. They think it's slowly dying.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Crap I have no idea.. O_O I hope someone will know


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Hey there! 

Do you know anything about his water parameters before or what they're like with you right now? (i.e. ammonia, nitrites and nitrates)? If not, how often and how much are water changes performed?

The white thing hanging out of his vent could still be stringy white poo... he could be suffering from constipation, or possibly internal parasites. Do you also know what he's been fed and how much? Is he eating at all right now? Does the white thing haing out of his vent seem to move on its own?

The white stuff on his upper lip could either be a fungus or columnaris (flexibacter). It's hard to see in the picture but if the fuzziness looks dry and wispy like white dandelions to you... it's likely fungus... improved water quality is the best treatment - stubborn cases of fungus could be treated with Maroxy.

If this looks like wet cotton... then this might be flex, which is a bacterial infection and needs to be treated with antibiotics, such as Kanaplex OR Maracyn & Maracyn II in combination. If you think this is flex (which I think is more likely)... you should start the antibiotic treatment as soon as you can. Also recommended in treating flex is lowering the temp to 75-76F and increase aeration/oxygenation (you can add an airstone or if you can increase the filter flow... might help). It would be best to do 2 rounds of antibiotics if this is flex.

If the white "string" coming out of his vent is intestinal worms... you'll also need a medicine to treat internal parasites. Jungle's antiparasitic food is good if they're eating, b/c it contains levamisole. If he's not eating... then you'll need to find (online or in a store) a water treatment med that contains levamisole or metronidozole or praziquantel. And treating for 3 days past the last sign of any parasitic infection is best... but minimum 1 week. You can use these antiparasitics along with either antibiotics you end up using.

I've been told that neon tetras may not be a suitable tank mate to bettas... they can be nippy - which may be causing the betta stress as well.

Let me know what you think and we can go from there. It's especially hard for kids to have to see their very-well-loved pet ill... hopefully, we can return him in good health.

Michele


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

I hate to be a downer but unfortunately bettas live an average of 2 to 3 years. The age we get them at could be 6 months or more. It may be old age that's the cause. He will take in air from the surface because he is an labyrinth fish and can process atmospheric air. Keep the tank temperature above 74F and the water clean. Is he eating?


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

That's true that he may be in his twilight years... and pristine water is for sure paramount in ensuring good health and aiding in any recovery if it were to happen. But if that _is _a worm hanging out of his vent... then he still may recover with an antiparasitic med no matter his age.

IF the white on his lip is fuzzy and resembles wet cotton - this is a flex (columnaris) bacterial infection and he won't have a chance at surviving this without antibiotics. Along with the suggested antibiotics, flex is best treated in water that is between 75-76F (during treatment - and reduce the temp slowly) even though betta's optimum temp is 78F.

Yes... bettas do have a labyrinth organ to breath atmospheric air - their gills aren't as efficient at taking oxygen from the water so they have this accessory organ. However, if he's hanging out close to the top of the water, or rests a lot on the bottom only to dart to the top for frequent gulps of air... he's having difficulty breathing... either from any of these possible illnesses... or from water quality issues so the water should be free of toxins (ammonia & nitrites - or too high nitrates).

I whole-heartedly agree that clean water is a must... any time. I do have an online betta friend who has had a betta live 8 years... and have heard of many living till around 5. But it's true, the average life span is 2-3 - predominantly b/c of the poor conditions from which they came... and the bettas we find in the store are likely 6-9 months of age already... so sadly they often don't have a good start in life to reach these nice long lives.

Michele


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Mattsmom said:


> That's true that he may be in his twilight years... and pristine water is for sure paramount in ensuring good health and aiding in any recovery if it were to happen. But if that _is _a worm hanging out of his vent... then he still may recover with an antiparasitic med no matter his age.
> 
> IF the white on his lip is fuzzy and resembles wet cotton - this is a flex (columnaris) bacterial infection and he won't have a chance at surviving this without antibiotics. Along with the suggested antibiotics, flex is best treated in water that is between 75-76F (during treatment - and reduce the temp slowly) even though betta's optimum temp is 78F.
> 
> ...


Today he looks a whole lot better. The white stuff must have been poo, and he could have been suffering from constipation. He's swimming around freely, and just like all other fishes, when he sees me he begs for food now. I threw some in, and he ate all of it immediately.

The white stuff around the mouth is not fuzzy. Looks like skin's peeled off. They had a crayfish from local stream for few days in the tank, and they suspect he got injured by crayfish. Along with the white color in lower lips, one of the lower fin(?) (one that's really thin) is cut in half.

I'm sure the water quality isn't the best at my friends place, since he's got only 3 gal and not-so-established undergravel filter which isn't running 100% of time (they claim ~70%, sometimes turns off at night because of noise).

I checked their water for ammonia and it's at 0.25ppm. Which isn't too bad but still a problem. Currently he's in 2.5Gal with water from my main tank.

Thanks for the helpful advice! I sure hope I don't have to use antibiotics (do they sell these at big als?).


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

I am glad that the betta is doing better.  The crayfish really should never have been put in the same tank, as you know, because of injury and diseases. In my opinion the air driven undergravel filter (UGF) is a big poop collector as mulm collects under the plates and can not be vacuumed up from above. Shutting off the air pump is not a good idea. I have in the past used an air hose to go down the stand pipe under the UGF plates and suck out the mulm. They are better off taking out the UGF (if left there things will go anaerobic) and replace it with an air driven sponge filter. The betta needs to be watched that he is getting enough to eat as the 2 black neon tetras are quick eaters. 
Also I wasn't saying before to forget the guy because he was old but rather adding that it "may be" a reason for his troubles and not an absolute. Hopefullly with feeding the betta good food and providing clean water without antibiotics and chemicals that are found at all fish stores he will make a full recovery.


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

That's great to hear that he's doing better!  Clean water IS one of the best medicines - and should always be tried first. Even constant exposure to 0.25 ammonia (and likely nitrites as well)... can cause their little immune systems to start to fail.

Calmer, I hope you understand that I wasn't implying that _you _were implying to give up on him either  ... inflections don't always come through posts... just wanted to point out to Conix that he could still be treated given his age.

I also agree with what Calmer said about ditching the UGF and adding the crayfish (bad idea!)

Hopefully, the little guy can be saved... and hopefully, they'll maybe consider keeping him separately if you return him... especially b/c they really want him to live - for their daughter.

I'm glad that the white stringy thing was likely poo (hopefully, any way). How much has he been fed? And what? Bettas are glutenous and will over eat if given the opportunity (like when fish food manufacturers advise to feed what they will eat in 5 minutes  ). Although this betta was not bloated (good!)... keep in mind that most fish's stomach's are the size of their eyeball in 3D... so feeding the equivalent to 3-5 betta pellets OR frozen bloodworms a day is a good amount. As well... an exclusively dry food diet can constipate bettas who are notorious for this condition. If frozen/thawed foods aren't offered... then presoaking the dry foods in treated water or tank water first for 5 minutes would at least make the food expand outside of their tummies, rather than inside.

The white film on his lip, if it's not fuzzy, could be the result of any injury and may be absessing. Watch for any redness around there as well. Hopefully, being exposed to clean water now will heal it up nicely.

Yes... most Big Als normally carries the Maracyn products as well as the Jungle antiparasitic food, I believe. They should carry Kanaplex, but mine doesn't keep it in stock but would order it if I asked (I got mine online from MOPS).

It's good to have these meds on hand incase you need to treat in a timely manner, and the store happens to be out of what you're looking for.

And finally, turning off the filter is also a bad idea... as the good bacteria in the filter (filter media) will starve and die off... sending the tank into another mini-cycle when the filter is turned back off. There are some more quiet filters on the market that might work better... but turning it off is not a good option.

Let us know how the little guy does... does he have a name?

Michele


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Anything wild caught likely has some parasite, or the capacity to carry one in at least. White stringy poo is a good sign of parasites. If it keeps occuring, it likely has a bug, and I'd treat it accordingly. Usually prazipro is a good first line.


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

Mattsmom said:


> Calmer, I hope you understand that I wasn't implying that _you _were implying to give up on him either  ... inflections don't always come through posts... just wanted to point out to Conix that he could still be treated given his age.


No. not at all. I was just emphasizing the "may be" point as when I read it over later as it did seem a tad negative to me. I didn't want anyone giving up on the betta.


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Michele


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Hey Conix,

Just wondering how the betta is doing? Did he make a full recovery?

Michele


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

I've been keeping him in a 10gal tank I prepared for my friend's kids. It's got some live plants, and the betta (I don't think they named him) seems to be doing better lately. His lips are still white, I don't think that's going to get fixed, but he appears to be very active, and haven't seen him lying down on the floor last few days at all. He's mostly up around surface of water, but not gasping or anything. 

I've been feeding him some flakes and micro pellets (hikari). I don't have *betta* pellets/flakes. However, he seems to be eating well, so all indications lead me to believe he's healthier.

for a while I thought there's no way he'd recover, and I really thought he's due for the *Betta heaven*.

It's possible that he doesn't have much left considering he's been living in less than ideal condtion for almost 3 years. However, just by looking at him now he would live at least for another 3 years.

I hope his fins and lips would recover. 

Anyway, thanks a lot for those advices. They certainly helped a lot!


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Great to hear that he's doing better! Are you keeping him Conix?


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

No, he is going back to the owner's house tomorrow. I prepared 10gal tank which is fully cycled for them. There will be old tank mates of 2 black neon tetras and new tank mates also - guppy pair, juveniles.


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Just be careful with the guppies... if they're fancy tails... the betta might try to attack the guppies (tails are similar to bettas), and vice-versa - guppies can be nippy with a betta's tail fins. As well, were all fish considered relatively healthy for a while before being kept together? Illness can be spread pretty easily with new or previously ill fish, if they were not quarantined first. Just looking out...

Michele


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Hmm.. I did not know guppies would be incompatible with *any* fish.

When those 2 black neon tetras were introduced to their 3Gal tank with Betta, I was told all the chasing was done by the Betta. After few days, he left the tetras alone and tetras did not bother him. So I think the betta is ok with 2 black neon tetras.

I put those little guppies in the tank, and they are afraid to go near the Betta. One of them is male, so I assume he will grow with fancy tails eventually. We'll have to wait and see.

What are the good tank mates for a Betta? I'll probably add an oto later, and few cherry shrimps. No other plans yet.


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Sometimes, neons aren't compatible either... it depends... they can be nippy as well... but are generally ok with bettas.

On the other hand... I would strongly recommend not keeping guppies with the betta. Since there's already some "aggression" issues... you may find one or more dead or severely injured.

Platies, rasboras, cherry barbs (but no other barbs), cardinal/neon tetras (as long as they're not nippy with each other), white cloud minnows, otos, cories, plecos and ADF's could all be considered suitable tankmates with a male betta or a careful sorority of female bettas. There's always exceptions to each of these species, as individual personalities play into it as well.

Also... watch the bioload of the 10g... a betta accounts for 2.5gallons of it... and then you have to take into account the other inhabitants... although shrimp, are practically "free". 

Good luck with the little betta going back home! I hope the tank remains healthy... so he can enjoy life a while longer yet.

Michele


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Mattsmom said:


> Sometimes, neons aren't compatible either... it depends... they can be nippy as well... but are generally ok with bettas.
> 
> On the other hand... I would strongly recommend not keeping guppies with the betta. Since there's already some "aggression" issues... you may find one or more dead or severely injured.
> 
> ...


Hmm..I think the black neons are ok, at least they are not nippy yet.. If I take away the black neons, the tank will be very empty...

I'm surprised Betta's bio load is so high. How do they manage to keep them in jars and bowls?


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

That's the thing with poor bettas... b/c they have to be kept individually (at least the males do)... a huge misconception evolved that they can be kept in tiny bowls, vases or lamps, etc. I've often tested the ammonia in the cups I've brought my bettas home in... one was as high as 8.0! (And he _was _quite ill.)

Like any other fish... they are sensitive to ammonia... and the concentration of ammonia fills up quickly in small quarters... you see evidence of ammonia laden water with disintegrating fins, ammonia burns, fungus, parasitic and bacterial infections.

I'm trying desperately to dispell some of these myths about keeping bettas. They love to have room to swim like any fish does. I think of it this way... you can keep a dog in a 4' square pen for his entire life... maybe cleaning his living area once a week, meanwhile he has been stepping and sleeping in his own waste. That dog will live... miserably... and it won't thrive. We think this is a horrid practice (puppy millers do it all the time)... but yet we think it's an acceptable way to keep fish (bettas especially).

None of this is directed at you in particular, Conix... but b/c you asked... I had to explain...

Stepping off my soapbox now... 

Michele


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

The Betta and new tank will be going to the betta's owners home today. Here's some pictures.

New home for Betta and mates

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1868&stc=1&d=1220805575

New pic of the Betta, not much change from 2 weeks ago from the looks

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1870&stc=1&d=1220805575

Guppy fry male, started showing colors in tail fin

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1869&stc=1&d=1220805575

The 10Gal tank came together with my 20Gal purchased off kijiji. I put 2 6700K spirals in it, assorted plants (no fakes), free gravel from my other 10Gal tank purchase, free heater from big als (used my points), top fin power filter with custom filter inserts (stuff from big als), river stones from a dollar store.

It's not one that looks greatest, but hoping to keep the kids entertained.


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## Mattsmom (May 21, 2008)

Beautiful tank, Conix! You did a great job with it... and should hopefully be a happy home for all! Make sure you let them know about tank maintenance so the occupants stay healthy! Hopefully, the betta's fins will grow back too with improved water quality!

Keep us updated!!

Michele


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