# changing ph



## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

was is safest amount of ph that can be changed at one time?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Why are you trying to change pH? Most fish and plants can adapt to Toronto water just fine.

Also, it is not just a matter of how much pH is changed, but also a matter of how you are changing the pH. For example, using CO2 to lower the pH is much better than trying to use chemical salts to change the pH because the former does not change the TDS.


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

its for discus, when i get them they will probably be at pH 7 at the store. I want to bring it down for the discus so that they can survive long term and just wanted to know what the fastest was. I have API pH down is this a good way or bad way to decrease the pH?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

If the Discus are locally bred and not wild caught, they probably will do fine in pH 7 water, and will not require any special changes away from this pH.

API pH down is a chemical that increases the TDS of the water, so is a bad way to decrease pH.

The only way to decrease the pH without increasing TDS is to use RO water and/or to inject CO2.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I use peat granuals to lower my Ph.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

How effective do you find them matti2uude?


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## PACMAN (Mar 4, 2010)

TDS?


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Total Dissolved Solids


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

where can i buy peat granules?


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

should i still buy a gh and kh test kit then? I dont have a ro filter and dont plan on getting one. Will the gh and kh tests be necessary to keep discuss? I only have ph tests.

Also if i raise the tds wouldn't it mean that the water is harder and therefore more stable?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

duckyser said:


> Also if i raise the tds wouldn't it mean that the water is harder and therefore more stable?


Increasing TDS does not necessarily mean the water is harder. If you were to pour in hydrochloric acid, you would lower the pH due to the presence of the protons, but would increase the TDS due to the presence of the chloride anions.

Higher TDS also does not necessarily the water is more "stable" (stable in what sense? gH? pH?).


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

Hmm I thought the harder the water the more stable the ph would be. Anyways if I added API ph down and increased the tds, what amount would you consider acceptable? Different sites say that 70ppm is max while others say 250ppm is fine. I just want to consider my options, i would like to use the ph down rather than peat since it discolours the water


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

another question:
would using a chemical from big als to lower the hardness work? Would this chemical, or the end product affect any of the other water parameters that would be of concern to my discus?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I honestly don't think lowering the pH of your tank water works very well unless you are using RO water. I also don't think it is necessary 99.9% of the time, including your case (or from what you have shared).


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I've only been using the peat for a week now. Not too sure of the effectiveness myself yet, but I have read many good things about it. 
I had to special order the peat granuals from BA's. 
For discus aren't you going to want soft water with a low Ph and TDS?


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## Beijing08 (Jul 19, 2010)

ADA aquasoil is very good for lowering pH.
Although they're usually for planted aquariums and aquascapes, most shrimp hobbyists use it as a pH buffer. It has a pH of around 6.5. Is that too low for discus? 
also using CO2 to lower pH is less stable than using an acidic substrate due to their buffering capacities.

the downside is...we can't buy this stuff in Canada  
If you ever visit the states, try bringing a few bags back 

p.s. I also use peat granules in my canister filter


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Wouldn't drip acclimation work?


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

Are u guys completely sure they can live in just conditioned Toronto tap water?the discus I bought a while back slowly died over months. tester got a reading of my ph 7.6 which I think is way to high


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

duckyser said:


> Hmm I thought the harder the water the more stable the ph would be.


The higher your alkalinity, the more buffering capability against pH changes you will have; this is true.

However, an icnrease in TDS does not necessarily mean that the alkalinity increased.



duckyser said:


> another question:
> would using a chemical from big als to lower the hardness work? Would this chemical, or the end product affect any of the other water parameters that would be of concern to my discus?


No. Using any method other than RO water and/or injection of CO2 will change your TDS as you are adding some kind of chemical buffer to the water column.



matti2uude said:


> For discus aren't you going to want soft water with a low Ph and TDS?


+1. You will want soft water with a low pH and a low TDS content. This means that using chemical buffering agents to lower your pH is not recommended.



Joeee said:


> Wouldn't drip acclimation work?


This would only be to get the Discus (or new fish) acclimated to the new water over a course of several hours (or a couple of days, in some cases).

I am thinking that duckyser is worried about long term effects.


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## taillight (May 19, 2009)

if you give me tap water i can give you back 6.2 ph water in a few days(cycled) for some reason a few times a year my ph drops. i think it could be the plastic decorations, i have to put 3 big bags of arrogonite in mesh bags to keep the ph at 7. used baking soda a few times to raise it but the sludge that creates is a mess.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

matti2uude said:


> For discus aren't you going to want soft water with a low Ph and TDS?


In general, I will agree - especially for breeding. However, these days I believe most of the discus are raised in normal tap water conditions. I think regular water changes are more important. Twice a week at 20% as a minimum will see healthier discus than changing any of the water chemistry.

I also think that without a good understanding of how pH, gH and kH are intertwined, chemically altering your pH is likely fruitless and will in the end cause more stress than good.

Just my opinion though.


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## duckyser (Oct 4, 2009)

thanks for the offer, but i doubt my dad would drive me to trade water.

anyways i found a neat link making water similar to ro
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=55810


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I've read that before, and question its use for our purposes. Also, you can only make about 30g of water before you need a new one. You are going to need a lot more than that for discus - it would be cheaper to use an RO unit.


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## destructo (Aug 12, 2009)

You can try driftwood and almond leaves to help lower the PH a bit.
I have also recently started using CO2, and noticed a bigger drop, originally my water was 7.8 and now its at 7. 

I will agree with the others though, that a more stable PH and water changes will be better then trying to lower the PH with chemicals.


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## didi (Mar 24, 2010)

destructo said:


> You can try driftwood and almond leaves to help lower the PH a bit.
> I have also recently started using CO2, and noticed a bigger drop, originally my water was 7.8 and now its at 7.
> 
> I will agree with the others though, that a more stable PH and water changes will be better then trying to lower the PH with chemicals.


Hi there, How do you use the almonds leaves to lower your PH? Do you just throw them into the FT?

Also, can someone explain to me where I can get this CO2 gas?

and also, I read in another forum that someone used white vinegar to lower the ph. Should I consider that?

I have ph 7.6 and I need to bring it down to 7. My fish are doing great, but I am building an aquaponic system and I need ph around 7.

Thank you


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## Gargoyle (Aug 21, 2008)

I don't keep discus, but I've bred a lot of Apistogramma and other fish from the same habitats. I'll be a troublemaker and say pH doesn't mean much. Hardness is everything. 
I could breed wild-caught Apistogramma njisseni (from a natural pH ranging from 4.5 to 5.0) at pH 7, if the mineral content of the water ran at no more than 60ppm on a cheap reagent test kit. These are softwater fish, not low pH fish. My understanding (and I'm no chemist) is that for aquarium purposes, the pH reading is a secondary indicator of the mineral content, and not a useful value in itself. Soft water tends to acid pH, and leaf litter and wood in the Amazon releases acidifying tannins.

It's RO, rainwater, or putting your fish at risk. Chemically dropping pH means a bounce with every water change, and with discus, you can't change enough water. You would be much better seeing if they acclimate to your water, and gradually adding RO with water changes if you ever wish to breed them. Messing with chemicals or peat puts the fish on a habitat roller coaster. 

Plus, unless you have wild-caught discus, you can't really know how they were raised.


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## destructo (Aug 12, 2009)

The wood and almond leaves do release tannins and in turn help lower the PH of the water, however I have noticed very slightly nothing huge. 

CO2 can be made using a 2 liter pop bottle, a cup or 2 of suger, yeast and warm water, look up "DIY CO2" there are lots of info regrading that.

I wouldn't use vinager to lower the pH. 

What size tank do you have?


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Just to add my two cents, you don't need to invest in an R.O. unit to get R.O. water. I go to the store and buy it. I considered getting an R.O. unit but when you consider the set up costs, then the cost of replacement filters, it makes more sense to simply keep a couple of 5 gallon jugs sitting around till you need them. It costs around $2.50 to fill a 5 gallon jug at Water Depot.


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