# Cloudy water - No Ammonia



## schizo_orphan (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi all,
I have a 30 gallon hex tank with 5 rummynoses, some platy fry and a discus. I've been experiencing cloudy water over the past few weeks but my ammonia levels are negligible and all the fish seem happy (eating readily and swimming actively). I cleaned out my eheim 2213 filter about a month ago after running it for 3 months. i cleaned out all the sponges and media and soaked the substrate in dechlorinated water overnight. I replaced the white floss sponge and removed the carbon pad. Ever since, the water has been cloudy even after doing 30% weekly water changes. What could be the problem? Should I put a new carbon pad back into the filter? Assuming the tank is cycled properly, can you have zero ammonia/nitrite levels and still have cloudy water for this long?
Thanks..


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

schizo_orphan said:


> Hi all,
> I have a 30 gallon hex tank with 5 rummynoses, some platy fry and a discus. I've been experiencing cloudy water over the past few weeks but my ammonia levels are negligible and all the fish seem happy (eating readily and swimming actively). I cleaned out my eheim 2213 filter about a month ago after running it for 3 months. i cleaned out all the sponges and media and soaked the substrate in dechlorinated water overnight. I replaced the white floss sponge and removed the carbon pad. Ever since, the water has been cloudy even after doing 30% weekly water changes. What could be the problem? Should I put a new carbon pad back into the filter? Assuming the tank is cycled properly, can you have zero ammonia/nitrite levels and still have cloudy water for this long?
> Thanks..


Get that discus out of there and slap the person who suggested it. That's #1. Then learn about biofiltration and how you killed your biofilter.

Mistake 1 was putting a fish that needs a 60 gal + in a hex that's equivalent in practice to an 8 gallon in terms of foot print, then you killed your biofilter further subjecting said fish to bad water quality. My suggestion is to scrap your tank return all your fish and learn what bio filtration is. Tanks do not magically cycle. When you kill all your biomedia, you break said cycle. Even if you dont see ammonia you'll have a bacterial bloom in your water.


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

Hello; Try putting back the carbon filter pad and the filter floss. If you clean your filter just do one media at a time do not exchange all at once and good luck, sometimes the best way to learn is by trial and error.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

After more than an hour that stuff's dead anyways he'll just make it worse by putting it back.

You don't learn things by trial and error when that involves torturing sensitive and highly prized fish IMO. I'm not reposting in this thread. Its upsetting me.


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## Harry Muscle (Mar 21, 2007)

schizo_orphan said:


> Hi all,
> I have a 30 gallon hex tank with 5 rummynoses, some platy fry and a discus. I've been experiencing cloudy water over the past few weeks but my ammonia levels are negligible and all the fish seem happy (eating readily and swimming actively). I cleaned out my eheim 2213 filter about a month ago after running it for 3 months. i cleaned out all the sponges and media and soaked the substrate in dechlorinated water overnight. I replaced the white floss sponge and removed the carbon pad. Ever since, the water has been cloudy even after doing 30% weekly water changes. What could be the problem? Should I put a new carbon pad back into the filter? Assuming the tank is cycled properly, can you have zero ammonia/nitrite levels and still have cloudy water for this long?
> Thanks..


I'd have to agree with AquariAM, the discus has to go for sure, that tank is way way way too small for it. The rummynose might be OK, although they like to swim a lot and a 30 hex is pretty small. The platy fry are perfectly fine.

As for your filtration, the bio filter is most likely completely dead. Btw, just to clarify, were you running the filter for 3 months on another tank? Or on this tank while it was empty? If it was on this tank while it was empty, then doing that does nothing (just an FYI).

Cloudy water has nothing to do with ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. It's to do with bacterial blooms. Might last several day or longer, but you're not gonna have much success if you don't remedy your choice of fish in that tank.

Feel free to ask more questions ...

Harry


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> Get that discus out of there and slap the person who suggested it. That's #1. Then learn about biofiltration and how you killed your biofilter.
> 
> Mistake 1 was putting a fish that needs a 60 gal + in a hex that's equivalent in practice to an 8 gallon in terms of foot print, then you killed your biofilter further subjecting said fish to bad water quality. My suggestion is to scrap your tank return all your fish and learn what bio filtration is. Tanks do not magically cycle. When you kill all your biomedia, you break said cycle. Even if you dont see ammonia you'll have a bacterial bloom in your water.


Speaking of putting a discus in small quarters, there's a restaurant in Heartland called Pho Tay Do. They have a 25G fish tank with discus in it, but not one, they have eight. Yes, I'm serious. They put the discus in after their flowerhorn died of hole in the head, a few days after they tried to sell it to me.


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## schizo_orphan (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for the responses so far. Just to clarify - I was running the filter for 3 months *with* 4 platies and 2 danios. I assumed the aquarium was cycled by then as I got the water tested and everything looked OK. My problems started after I cleaned out the filter and removed the carbon pad. 
Also, even though the footprint of my tank is relatively small, is this not OK for one discus? Don't the prefer swimming vertically?


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

schizo_orphan said:


> Thanks for the responses so far. Just to clarify - I was running the filter for 3 months *with* 4 platies and 2 danios. I assumed the aquarium was cycled by then as I got the water tested and everything looked OK. My problems started after I cleaned out the filter and removed the carbon pad.
> Also, even though the footprint of my tank is relatively small, is this not OK for one discus? Don't the prefer swimming vertically?


Nothing prefers swimming vertically. Some fish like having more vertical space. Doesn't mean you can remove the horizontal space.

Yes. Your tank was cycled. Your FILTER houses at least fifty percent of the beneficial bacteria that keep it that way. When you rinsed it completely, you washed them away.

You have to clean filters 1/3 at a time. If it's a canister, open it, clean 1/3 of the media, put it back. The next time, 3 months later, clean another third.

A 2213 should be cleaned every 3 months if it's the only filter and every 6 if you have a seperate mechanical filter. In theory, piece X of media is only cleaned once a year. And by clean, you don't scrub anything, you just give it a good rinse in tank water in a bucket. Aquariums are little ecosystems. Dirty is required.


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## schizo_orphan (Apr 21, 2010)

So at this point, my plan of attack is:

1) Isolate discus 
2) 100% water change
3) Allow the tank to re-cycle again for a few weeks with the existing platy.

Is this sufficient?
Thanks..


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

schizo_orphan said:


> 1) Isolate discus
> 2) 100% water change
> 3) Allow the tank to re-cycle again for a few weeks with the existing platy.


1) Where are you going to put the discus? I ask this because he/she will need a clean cycled aquarium. Do you have another aquarium that is cycled or know of anyone that has a healthy cycled aquarium that you can seed the 30 gallon hex tank from?

2) There are different views on this but I would do no more that a 50% water change per day or two.

3) You could but if you want a sure fire, quick method then that would be to fill in the top part of the aquarium with floating plants. You will need to have a good light source that will light the plants up for about 10 hours a day. A fluorescent table lamp would be good or a spiral compact fluorescent in a goose neck lamp. Either way cram in as much light as you can. Make sure the aquarium is topped up so that the floating plants are close as possible to the light source without over heating the plants. Do be careful of electricity and water. You can use plants like Frog Bit, Hornwort, Elodea densa, or even Duck Weed; any plant that floats and grows fast will do. You can see here what i am talking about: http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm
It is the silent cycle and it works really well.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

This is a forum for beginners to ask questions and get help. Telling them that they are stupid and ignorant and have screwed everything up is not the best way to help them, although it does make you feel superior at their expense.

schizo_orphan, it sounds like you got your water tested before you worked on your filter, at a time when the water was in good shape. It probably wouldn't have the same results now. You might consider getting a test kit and doing your own tests, at least until you have things stabilized and have a better feel for what's going on.

I second Calmer's recommendations, especially adding fast growing floating plants. Plants are excellent for stabilizing and maintaining water quality, look good, and make the fish feel more secure and less stressed.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

bae said:


> This is a forum for beginners to ask questions and get help. Telling them that they are stupid and ignorant and have screwed everything up is not the best way to help them, although it does make you feel superior at their expense.
> 
> schizo_orphan, it sounds like you got your water tested before you worked on your filter, at a time when the water was in good shape. It probably wouldn't have the same results now. You might consider getting a test kit and doing your own tests, at least until you have things stabilized and have a better feel for what's going on.
> 
> I second Calmer's recommendations, especially adding fast growing floating plants. Plants are excellent for stabilizing and maintaining water quality, look good, and make the fish feel more secure and less stressed.


YGPM. Are you saying certain people are unable to do research before subjecting an animal to the wrong conditions? Asking the guy at the pet shop does not = research. Even when I first started I knew better than to accept one person's advice at face value. You ALWAYS cross check. We all have the internet, right?


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Not everything on the internet can be accepted as fact. Even if you find it numerous times, a statement could still be false. There are a number of myths still being perpetuated, repeated by many who accept it as fact.
With the tank in question, if you remove the Discus, assuming it is large, that tank will be fine with the rest of the fish. There should be more than enough bacteria to overcome the light bioload, in the tank itself, regardless of whether the bacteria is dead in the filter, which is questionable.
for the record, I vigourously clean my filter elements in tank water, all components at once. When we had the blackout a number of years ago, we were without power for 28 hours. None of my filters died in that time period.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

BillD said:


> Not everything on the internet can be accepted as fact. Even if you find it numerous times, a statement could still be false. There are a number of myths still being perpetuated, repeated by many who accept it as fact.
> With the tank in question, if you remove the Discus, assuming it is large, that tank will be fine with the rest of the fish. There should be more than enough bacteria to overcome the light bioload, in the tank itself, regardless of whether the bacteria is dead in the filter, which is questionable.
> for the record, I vigourously clean my filter elements in tank water, all components at once. When we had the blackout a number of years ago, we were without power for 28 hours. None of my filters died in that time period.


No, not everything can be accepted as fact, but if you ask on Cichlid Forum, and 8 people say yes, odds are it's cool. That's certainly better than no advice at all or the advice of some greasy 15 year old who just wants to make a sale or doesnt care.


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## schizo_orphan (Apr 21, 2010)

No - no other cycled aquariums here. Some of you will probably have a heart attack at the idea but what about leaving the discus in a clean 20 L bucket (like those large Home Depot/Big Al's buckets) in the meantime. Will throwing a heater in and doing small daily water changes be ok until I get the tank back up and running?
BTW, the discus is about 3.5"..


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

schizo_orphan said:


> No - no other cycled aquariums here. Some of you will probably have a heart attack at the idea but what about leaving the discus in a clean 20 L bucket (like those large Home Depot/Big Al's buckets) in the meantime. Will throwing a heater in and doing small daily water changes be ok until I get the tank back up and running?
> BTW, the discus is about 3.5"..


 You can't keep it in that tank. A bucket would be much worse. You'd be best having the discus in the tank if anything but the fact that you think keeping it in a bucket is better scares me and tells me, again, that you shouldn't have that discus. Even if you had a 90G you're clearly not ready for it. It isn't fair to the fish.

I've had fish for ten years and I would rather not keep discus because they are fragile and require a LOT of TLC to keep in good shape.

You too should be having a heart attack at the idea. Go ahead and put it in the bucket. Watch what happens to it.


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## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

AquariAM, there is a line between tough love and just being offensive and you have again crossed it.

Schizo, this does not mean that you do not have an issue. The bucket is smaller than the tank, and thus will build up crap even faster. And the tank is too small for the discus, as well.

Take it to Big Al's. Ask politely, and they might put a "not for sale" sign on it for a week or two. 

If you cannot bear to lose the discus, then you have a lot of work to do. Do 30% water changes, every day. Find some BIO SPIRA brand bacterial supplement. Use it. Throw in some stem plants. Add duckweed. Cut back feeding to once every three days. Add some ammo-lock. Dump some Zeolite into your filter. Dump some Purigen into your filter. Do more water changes. Keep on it. And if the discus takes a turn for the worse, despite your hours of hard work, get rid of it immediately. If you try, and fail, don't hold onto it till it dies.

You have made a mistake, you really should research these things more. But everyone makes mistakes.

Sincerely, best of luck.
Wes


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

If the discus is going to live you need to:

(a) take it back to the pet store.

(b) sell or give it away to someone with a good home for it.

(c) buy a tank, and obtain a cycled sponge filter for it.

If you want to do (c) above and you're in scarboro, PM me and I'll figure out how to get you a sponge for an AC70. You're going to need a 50 - 75 gallon tank,
and a pair of aqua-clear 70 filters, or a single AquaClear 110. 

If you want to sell the little fella, get it posted now. He's going to die within days if you leave things this way. The pet-store should have advised you better. Don't buy anything else from them, if they won't take this fellow back.

Warren


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

schizo_orphan said:


> So at this point, my plan of attack is:
> 
> 1) Isolate discus
> 2) 100% water change
> ...


1) pointless and will cause MORE problems. How will an uncycled bucket help?

2) counter productive. Again, why you have discus I don't know. Especially in a tiny tank.
Sorry man I realize I'm coming across kinda rude but you're arguing about why you should keep a level 5 fish at a level 0 experience level and I don't know what you want to hear.

)It doesnt need to re cycle it just needs to replenish

*AquariAM, there is a line between tough love and just being offensive and you have again crossed it.*

This is a get that fish out of there you're gonna kill it situation. What do you want me to tell ya.


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