# Angels that look like siamese cat coloration...COOL!



## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

If you like the unusual in Angels, check out these 2 videos of new colorations of Angels being bred.

Bulgarian Siamese





and here's another really cool one....Blue Marble!

http://www.youtube.com/user/pinoyangelfish


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

Hello Anna; If you hear or see any for sale let me know, they would show great in the new tank.


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## Norman (Feb 13, 2011)

Wow! I need to get me some of those!


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Aren't they just the coolest Angels you've seen? We will all have to get in line behind the American's for these guys....the guy who bred the Siamese type ones is in Bulgaria and doesn't ship  

The blue marbles are Ken Kennedy's own and again he didn't ship, but someone from the US went over to the Phillipines and brought back a few of his stock that's how the Phillipine Blue lines got into the US...one of the lines was this blue marble.

So far the US bred ones are not as blue as the one in the video, but they are showing blue. I have a contact that has some young ones and I am looking at bringing some in for us here to try out.

Its like everything else with color, you need the base to try it out and then you use that to create your own color pallette. It would depend on the male or female used to bring out more blue in the offspring, so using a fish with a good lot of blueing in its background would help when trying for this blue marble color.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

There were some Kennedy blue angels at the OCA last year. A couple of people brought some back but did nothing with them.


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## Norman (Feb 13, 2011)

I've got 4 Phillipine Blues that I got from Franks apparently imported from Thailand...wonder if they are out of Ted Kennedys line...they're very beautiful and one pair has started breeding in my community tank. Too bad I can't seem to keep the fry alive. :-(


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

I talked to Carla at the Auction as it was she who got the blue ones...she told me they all died  She wants to get some of mine, she took my email addy at the Auction. 

I have found some blues in some of the LFS stores around the city, but those are NOT Ken Kennedy's lines. He did not ship outside of the Phillipines and to this day still does not.

They might have been bought from one of the suppliers in the US then sold to someone up here and they traded them in to the LFS store for credit.

Someone may have gotten them and didn't like them or just couldn't keep them and got rid of them to the store, or at the Auctions.

The ones that I am getting in (today) are direct offspring from Ken's lines, bred by several of the top notch breeders in the US right now.

I believe both Fair Deals and another Cdn distributor buys from these same breeders! I asked my contact and was told they shipped up to Canada out west!

PS: Norman I think you will have to hatch them out yourself and do it that way! That is how most of the breeders do it, they don't let them parent raise. I have successfully raised 2 spawns now of my Koi Angels and they are starting to look very nice!

I am going to sell them at the Octoberfish Auction/Show in Kitchener at the end of this month...they are already past dime size.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

Norman said:


> I've got 4 Phillipine Blues that I got from Franks apparently imported from Thailand...wonder if they are out of Ted Kennedys line...they're very beautiful and one pair has started breeding in my community tank. Too bad I can't seem to keep the fry alive. :-(


Are you hatching them yourself? If you are and they bloat and die instead of becoming free swimming try treating the parents with Metro. As a past discus and angel breeder a bacterial infection in the parents that does not effect them is pasted on through the eggs and kills the fry. This was a common problem many years ago for discus breeders that fed raw turkey heart. I had it a couple of years back with a L number pleco pair.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Wow that's good to know! I will keep that in mind, if my next batch are not free swimming. I used an alder cone in the breeders box with the airstone and the eggs all hatched! Didn't use any Meth blue (hate that stuff it stains everything) or HP...


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## Norman (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks Bettaforu, the blues suprised me actually they laid the eggs but I assumed they were too young and that the eggs wouldn't hatch. Boy was I wrong! Since it was their first batch and they were in my community tank none survived but I'll try to remove the eggs next time. 

I do have another breeding pair of marble angels and the babies have made it to free swimming but then I start trying to feed and slowly they disappear. I don't know of it's me or if mom and dad end up snacking on them.

I can't seem to hatch the brine either so it may be that I mess up the water with the food for young fry?


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

Your main problem with hatching brine shrimp is the low quality eggs that you get buying it in small vials from LFS. As soon as dampness hits the eggs they are destroyed. You have to buy them in vaccum sealed cans. The eggs should be kept in a freezer so they say dry and fresh. It is rare any one gets a good hatch from vials of eggs. You can have one shipped in from Kens or see Sugarglider. I put them in a bottle in the freezer as soon as a can is opened. In fact I keep unopened cans in the freezer as well. They will keep there for several years. I use 5 tablespoons of water softener salt in a gallon plastic jug with the bottom cut off. I use cold tap water and always have 2 setups and go for a 48 hour hatch. That way you can get a full hatch on lower grade eggs. Some people have good luck with the decapsulated eggs.


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## Norman (Feb 13, 2011)

I think you're right on the money BWhiskered with the brine. I used the kit from Big Als, the packages of eggs. Also I didn't heat the water or add dechlorinator. I used a small goldfish bowl for hatching and a small pump with an airstones... Didn't work at all.


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## Amazongypsy (Oct 21, 2010)

New angels are so exciting!!
The seal point/siamese angels bred by Raiko in Bulgaria are a result of crossing a black ghost with a koi. The US breeders are after them so it is just a matter of time before they will be available in north america. They are gorgeous!! I have placed a female black ghost with a male HR koi in hopes I can mimic this cross but no action yet  They are still getting to know each other.
My blue smokeys came from David Labell who originally recieved his from Ken. They do not even compare to the angels labelled blue in the lfs. They are blue! They will probably never be parent raisers since they were hatched/raised artificially. 
I wish I was better with the genetics..how would I get a blue marble....what do I need to pair with my Kennedy blues??


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## Amazongypsy (Oct 21, 2010)

Norman said:


> I think you're right on the money BWhiskered with the brine. I used the kit from Big Als, the packages of eggs. Also I didn't heat the water or add dechlorinator. I used a small goldfish bowl for hatching and a small pump with an airstones... Didn't work at all.


I use a premixed product from canadian aqua farm...just add to water, makes it goof proof.Here is a link:
http://stores.canadianaquafarm.com/-strse-Brine-Shrimp-Eggs/Categories.bok
I use an airline without a stone...something about the fine bubbles a stone makes that affects the hatch/shrimp I've heard.
Do you have microworms or vinegar eels? Some will take 0-50 micron golden pearls.
Good luck


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

I believe its a gold marble and a blue paraiba...but I could be mistaken...they are still trying to fix the color, some show less blue than others, but still its a great color pattern. Im waiting on Carol to send me some pics of hers, but they are still young yet, so not showing the true color yet.

Oh I wonder what I would get if I put my dark Pinoy smokey with my Koi female? I thought there was a blushing gene in the mix somewhere with those siames ones?


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## jarmilca (Sep 10, 2009)

Amazongypsy said:


> New angels are so exciting!!
> They will probably never be parent raisers since they were hatched/raised artificially.
> I wish I was better with the genetics..how would I get a blue marble....what do I need to pair with my Kennedy blues??


It is a myth that angelfish raised artificially will not raise their fry. We had a few pairs that were hatched artificially but were great parents. 
In order to get blue marble fry in one generation, you would have to mix your blue smokey with blue marble angelfish. The philippine blue gene is recessive so both parents has to be blue to get all fry blue, or at least carriers of the blue gene to get 25% of blue "babies".


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## jarmilca (Sep 10, 2009)

bettaforu said:


> Oh I wonder what I would get if I put my dark Pinoy smokey with my Koi female? I thought there was a blushing gene in the mix somewhere with those siames ones?


If your Pinoy was black ghost than you would get German blue angelfish which closely resembles the Siamese angelfish.


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## Amazongypsy (Oct 21, 2010)

jarmilca said:


> It is a myth that angelfish raised artificially will not raise their fry. We had a few pairs that were hatched artificially but were great parents.
> In order to get blue marble fry in one generation, you would have to mix your blue smokey with blue marble angelfish. The philippine blue gene is recessive so both parents has to be blue to get all fry blue, or at least carriers of the blue gene to get 25% of blue "babies".


So far the blue smokeys have got to wigglers then munched, but everytime they seem to keep them longer so I still have hope.
I was thinking to cross a marble(mostly white with only few black spots and no gold) with a blue smokey then selectively breed their offspring. Maybe in 3 generations?Will the smokey gene impede anything?
I wish the pb gene was included in the genetics calculator, I am so bad with genetics. 
It is not as easy or quick as I make it sound and these people are master breeders. I am a hobbyist.Any suggestions on pairings I should try?


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## Amazongypsy (Oct 21, 2010)

bettaforu said:


> I believe its a gold marble and a blue paraiba...but I could be mistaken...they are still trying to fix the color, some show less blue than others, but still its a great color pattern. Im waiting on Carol to send me some pics of hers, but they are still young yet, so not showing the true color yet.
> 
> Oh I wonder what I would get if I put my dark Pinoy smokey with my Koi female? I thought there was a blushing gene in the mix somewhere with those siames ones?


Well I have the gold marble and am working on the pariaba 
Are all koi not blushing, no striations in fins? I have so much still to learn 
I once had a german blue blusher that looked just like the seal point angels except the color was a purpleish blue. She was real pretty. I was so sad when I found she had jumped out in the night. I keep all my tanks covered now


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## jarmilca (Sep 10, 2009)

Amazongypsy said:


> I was thinking to cross a marble(mostly white with only few black spots and no gold) with a blue smokey then selectively breed their offspring. Maybe in 3 generations?Will the smokey gene impede anything?


Crossing a marble with a blue smokey will do the trick you will get blue marbles in the second generation. 
Assuming your marble is M+,++,++ and your smokey is ++,Sm,pbpb you should get in the first generation:
25% M+,Sm+,pb+ - smokey marble
25% M+,++,pb+- light marble 
25% ++,Sm+ ,pb+smokey
++,++,pb+ - silver

Then you take the light marble from the first generation and mate them together, you should get:
*6.25% MM,pbpb - blue dark marble
12.5% M+,pb+ - blue light marble *
6.25% ++, pbpb blue silver

37.5% M+,pb+ - light marble (carrier of the Philippine blue but will not express the blue color)
6.25% MM,++ - dark marble
12.5% MM,pb+ - will look like the dark marble above
12.5% M+,++ - light marble
6.25% ++++ silver

Hope it helps you.


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## jarmilca (Sep 10, 2009)

Amazongypsy said:


> I wish the pb gene was included in the genetics calculator


The pb gene has the same inheritance as pearlscale or albiono and it is also a modifier gene so you can trick the calculator by entering albino or pearlscale instead of blue and then replace back the blue in results that you get. 
I like to calculate it by myself, it helps you understand how things work.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

I have a black marble that has orange on its fins and head...if I cross that one with a dark smokey ghost...what would I get?

One of my smokeys has an irridescent copperish color patch on the top and bottom of its fins...so now Im wondering if it is a smokey pinoy/paraiba?


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## jarmilca (Sep 10, 2009)

bettaforu said:


> I have a black marble that has orange on its fins and head...if I cross that one with a dark smokey ghost...what would I get?
> 
> One of my smokeys has an irridescent copperish color patch on the top and bottom of its fins...so now Im wondering if it is a smokey pinoy/paraiba?


If you cross dark gold marble (Gm/Gm) with Black hybrid smokey ghost (D/+,Sm/+, S/+) you will get 
You would get:
Smokey gold marble	Sm/+ - Gm/+	12.5%
Smokey gold marble ghost	Sm/+ - Gm/+ - S/+	12.5%
Gold marble	Gm/+	12.5%
Smokey hybrid black ghost	Sm/+ - D/Gm - S/+	12.5%
Hybrid black ghost	D/Gm - S/+	12.5%
Smokey hybrid black	Sm/+ - D/Gm	12.5%
Gold marble ghost	Gm/+ - S/+	12.5%
Hybrid black(Gm)	D/Gm	12.5%

Phenotypically half of the fry will be black and half gold marble.

Both pinoy and paraiba have more blueish than copperish iridescence.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

The breeder says its called "Rainbow" effect in the smokeys! It gets more pronounced in each generation and looks incredible on them....so I guess Im keeping these 2 that show this effect.

My dark Pinoy smokeys (Scaredycats) have just laid tons of eggs an hour ago!


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blue Marble juvies coming in next week. Stay Tuned!


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