# LEDs and hanging vs not



## Teemote (Aug 13, 2016)

Hey - thinking about going to LED for my tank - anyone here have used LED with success? I kinda like the shimmering effect of the LED. 

Thinking maybe a pair of the Finnex for the 36x18x18 high tech, not sure if it's going to be over kill or not.

Also, another question.

I've never hang the light with adjustable height, is it better than just using stock brackets? been thinking about it, maybe that can create some PAR variations for the low light part of my tank?


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## Nebthet78 (Aug 21, 2017)

I think there are several things that you have to take into consideration when it comes to hanging lights or just using the legs on the tank when it comes to LED Fixtures. 

The first to consider is achievable Par values at certain distances to the subtrate. What do you need for plants to grow? What does the manufacturer, or those whom have tested the fixtures show for Par values at what depth? Do you need a second fixture to achieve those values?

The second is whether or not your tank has a canopy and what type of fixture you are using. Typical Rectangle light fixture, Par38s, smaller diy type? 
How much room do you have under your Canopy? Is it low or a taller one? How much do you plan on having your hands in the tank doing maintanence?

If you have a tank with a canopy on it, and a rectangle LED fixture, it would be good to hang these from the canopy with a kit that allows you to easily raise and lower the lights when you have to work in the tank due to the limited amount of space allowed by the canopy. This is especially true if you are using more than one light to boost par values in a deeper tank. 

But, if you don't have a canopy to hide the wires, then it is visually best to use the fixture legs and sit it on top of the tank. Hanging lights more than a couple inches from a tank top when you don't have a canopy causes a lot of light leakage, which, can be a bit annoying and hurt the eyes after a while if you are sitting in the same room. 

Lastly, is your fixture water proof? 
Unlike a lot of T5 fixtures which typically sit 10 inches or more so above the water levels, a lot of the LED fixtures these days need to be as close to the water as posslble to achieve needed Par values. Exceptions are more expensive fixtures like Kessils and those made for Reef aquariums which run over $300 or more, but are made with better LEDs like Crees and typically have optics lenses allowing for placement farther from the water surface. 

The moderately priced fixtures (Under $200usd) are more often than not, made with lower quality leds, cheaper aluminium housing and no water proofing. 
A cheap version of these type of leds are the NICREW leds we often see on Amazon. 
A moderate version with better housing and leds would be the Finnex fixtures, both have no water proofing. 
A higher moderate version with waterproofing are the Fluval Fresh & Plant 2.0 and Current Satellite Pro+ lights. 

Why is water proof on LED fixtures important? Because not only do you not want to have to replace the fixture once a year or more. But, accidents happen and sometimes lights fall in a tank and a good light is not cheap.

Example: Nicrew lights are recommended to be used on a tank with a glass canopy cover. They are cheaply made and have no water proofing, so even with water splash from a bubbler or filter return can eventually get inside the thin led housing and cause a short in the lights. People have had this happen within 3 months of having the light, others have never had it happen. It's a roll of the dice. 

In comparison, take the Fluval Fresh and Plant 2.0 or Aquasky led fixtures, which both have IPV6 waterproofing. In a youtube video by Aquarium Co-op some time ago, it showed that these lights can take an accidental (or not so accidental 1hour 4 foot or so depth) swim in a tank and still work afterwards. 

How does this relate to whether or not you want to hang the lights? 
If you don't have a canopy and need to use legs, or want to hang your lights as close to the water surface as possible, the Fluval you can safely do either over open water ensuring you get the advertised Par values at required depths without having to worry about water spray killing your lights. 

There is also the cUL listing to think about, as some insurance companies will void your policy if they find an accident was caused by an item that is not cUL certified. 

Hopefully I didn't confuse you too much with a lot of information and questions. 

I've used both legs and hanging of fixtures. I don't have a Canopy right now and I'm in the middle of getting my tank set up (pretty much the same size as yours but mine's 20 inches tall), and I'm starting off with 3 x Par38 bulbs. My cheap hanging option, does not look nice visually, but it does the job and allows me to raise and lower the lights as needed. 
(I have a thread in the planted tank section with pics so you can see what I mean)
However, when my parents return from vacationing, they are bringing me back a Fluval fixture I ordered in the States which I will be using over the tank with legs until I can make a canopy to block excess light leakage in the room. This will give me the advertised Par 66 at 18 inches from the light (accounting for 2 inches of soil from the bottom and having the light right at the top rim of the tank. 

Seeing as you are going to use 2 Finnex fixtures; (not sure which model) 
- This will boost your Par value and allow fixtures to be a bit further from the water surface which will help to mitigate spashing since they are not waterproof. 
- I would recommend hanging them in a canopy if you have one. Get a hanging kit that allows you to raise and lower the lights as needed without being a pain to lower back down into place. 
- If you don't have a Canopy, but these lights are going on your Starfire rimless tank, I would suggest to hang them, though it may look a bit unsightly, it won't look nearly as bad as having to try to put a cover over that tank. 

One last thing I will say.. LED lighting is where it appears the industry is going. But they still leave a lot to be desired in terms of available spectrum. Most plants will grow just fine under LED lighting, but there will be an adjustment period for the plants and some may never do as well as others.


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## Teemote (Aug 13, 2016)

Man, thanks for the input, that was quite a read, had to read it very slowly and twice lol

So I am leaning more towards just having riser brackets to raise maybe 4-6 inches instead of hanging, I can't really do hanging where I have my tank now. Looking at some custom arcylic places to see if they can make me 2/4/6/8 inch brackets just so I can play around.

And it's just rimless with open top, nothing there, right now I got a 4 x T5 just sitting on top.

Based on my calculation and measurement; 
The light is sitting about total of 17 inch (2 inch above water, and 15 from water to sub) to substrate. ( I have about 2.5 to 3 inch of ADA soil, kinda overkill but yah......)

so my idea was maybe get the light slightly higher, maybe bump it 4-6 inches to help with some of the GSA for my bottom plans (mostly slow growers now, anubias and buce).

I am thinking if my substrate level can be low- medium light it would be good, right now I believe it's closer to med-high light.

I have no idea what the PAR output of this specific fixture as it's some Taiwanese brand that didn't have PAR value.

After looking up some LED options I am now actually leaning towards the Satellite Pro+, I think I could probably get away with just one - and have the light 22-24 (so 6-8 inches above water) inches above the substrate which is about 40 PAR based on their web.

My concern with LED is the 'spread' since my tank is 18 inches width, i dont' know if its enough to cover the tank so it doesn't appear to be 'dark' - not actually too concerned the par being low at the substrate level since I going all slow low light growers now (ferns, anubias, buce etc)


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

Teemote said:


> After looking up some LED options I am now actually leaning towards the Satellite Pro+, I think I could probably get away with just one - and have the light 22-24 (so 6-8 inches above water) inches above the substrate which is about 40 PAR based on their web.
> 
> My concern with LED is the 'spread' since my tank is 18 inches width, i dont' know if its enough to cover the tank so it doesn't appear to be 'dark' - not actually too concerned the par being low at the substrate level since I going all slow low light growers now (ferns, anubias, buce etc)


I'd get 2 strips if you can. Tall plants will cast shadows and probably block the light from a single strip. Your background plants will be fine, but your foreground ones might not get enough light although, as you said, you can mitigate that by using low-light plants. And if you move the strip closer to the front, you'll encourage more forward leaning of the background plants.

The Satellite Pro+ are decent lights for up here in Canada although expensive. Apparently Current's PAR readings are optimistic and a glass lid will knock off some light too. If I was buying a strip LED now and I could get it, I'd give the Fluval Fresh and Planted 2.0 a try based on the feedback of others.


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## Nebthet78 (Aug 21, 2017)

Teemote said:


> Man, thanks for the input, that was quite a read, had to read it very slowly and twice lol
> 
> So I am leaning more towards just having riser brackets to raise maybe 4-6 inches instead of hanging, I can't really do hanging where I have my tank now. Looking at some custom arcylic places to see if they can make me 2/4/6/8 inch brackets just so I can play around.
> 
> ...


The Current Satellite Pro+ is a good light and the nice thing is, you can dim it if you need to and it's programmable. 
Get the 36-48 inch fixture not the 24-36.

Right now, the cheapest place to buy it in Canada is through JLAquatics, but not through their own website, rather through Amazon.ca. It's 289.99+6.49shipping ($296.48 total), while on their website they are selling it for $312.95. I've ordered from them a lot and never had any issues. Usually takes about 4 days to receive a shipment.

If you need a second light, as Infolific suggests if you find there is too much shading going on, I would suggest to go for the Fluval aquasky 36-48 (fixture is 36inches). It is smaller with fewer LEDS but you would want it as a suppliment to ensure overall coverage and not to increase Par too much.

The optics on the led are 120 degree so you shouldn't have a problem with an 18 inch spread. You should get about 60 Par at subtrate level on an 18inch deep tank.


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

Nebthet78 said:


> Right now, the cheapest place to buy it in Canada is through JLAquatics, but not through their own website, rather through Amazon.ca. It's 289.99+6.49shipping ($296.48 total), while on their website they are selling it for $312.95. I've ordered from them a lot and never had any issues.


Another option is AquariumDepot.ca. They have these Current USA lights at the same price as Amazon.ca and shipping is free. They're in Toronto so pickup is an option. Nobody's beats Amazon's hassle-free returns though so that's a consideration.


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## characinfan (Dec 24, 2008)

I'm following this thread with interest. My tank currently is not planted and has no lights. I hope to get some LEDs in the future, but there will have to be glass or at least a screen over the tank itself because _my fish jump_. Don't people who have suspended lights over open tanks have a serious fish suicide problem?


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## Teemote (Aug 13, 2016)

I think I've only had one SAE jumping out of the tank in the 12 months I had it open top - generally speaking there are fishes more prone to jump out - if you only have tetras / other small types, you're good.

Thanks for the suggestion on the lights - I think first step I am going to do is get some custom riser made so I can rise my light 4-6 inches and see how that works - then once budget is there, I will most likely try out one set of LED to start and see how that goes.

The tank I am going for now is more of a nature style with slow / medium grow so, high light isnt' going to be a priority, steady growth is low maintenance is what I am aiming for. I think I've gone through the high light , high CO2, fast growing phase.. lol trimming every week is... well.... hassle. haha.. sometimes I am just lazy.


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

I'v had many types of fish jump out over the years. It's the risk you run when you run a tank without a lid


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## characinfan (Dec 24, 2008)

My fish jump a lot in the spring around full moons, especially on low pressure days -- they thump on the lid repeatedly and violently. There's no way they would survive a lidless tank unless there was mesh over it.


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## TOtrees (Sep 21, 2017)

*Current USA LED, LED+ or LED+ Pro?*

Hi,
I read this thread with interest, and would appreciate any feedback or advice. I'm upsizing my 20g (24") to a 30g (36"). Wish I could go bigger, but not in the cards. sigh.
Tank is a medium-planted FW community, all small fish (honey gourami is largest). All the plants are low to low-med light. No CO2. 
Right now, lighting in the 20g is entirely satisfactory, and I'm only running a pair of zoo med ultra sun screw-in self-ballasted CFL's, 10W each. If I could just get a 3rd one of these that would work, but with different tank dimensions, I'm looking at a whole new cover/hood/light - and I'd be happy to go with LED, if I can balance the features and price I want. 
The lower end Current LED (white+blue only) is very affordable, but will it match the 20W I have now? If not, there's no point in getting two of the lower ends, because the mid-range is basically same price as two low ends. 
I don't think I need the higher end LED+ Pro. 
Advice? Alternatives?
Thanks!!


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## Nebthet78 (Aug 21, 2017)

TOtrees said:


> Hi,
> I read this thread with interest, and would appreciate any feedback or advice. I'm upsizing my 20g (24") to a 30g (36"). Wish I could go bigger, but not in the cards. sigh.
> Tank is a medium-planted FW community, all small fish (honey gourami is largest). All the plants are low to low-med light. No CO2.
> Right now, lighting in the 20g is entirely satisfactory, and I'm only running a pair of zoo med ultra sun screw-in self-ballasted CFL's, 10W each. If I could just get a 3rd one of these that would work, but with different tank dimensions, I'm looking at a whole new cover/hood/light - and I'd be happy to go with LED, if I can balance the features and price I want.
> ...


Hi.. I'm not sure which Current light you are looking for, but I'm assuming maybe this one? 
https://www.amazon.ca/Current-USA-S...005379011&ie=UTF8&qid=1517442869&sr=8-17&th=1

If so, in my opinion, it would be a bit of an iffy light for any medium light plants, not unless you are thinking of supplimenting your tank with one of your CFL lights in the medium plant area of your tank.

The reason why I say this is due to the fact the Par levels on these fixtures are rather low compared to some of the off named ones available.

Here is a link to a page which shows the Par values of various lights by Current Satelllite. 
https://currentusa.zendesk.com/hc/e...length-do-the-Satellite-LED-fixtures-produce-

For the lower end blue + white satellite fixtures, at 8 inches from light you get 33 Par, and at 12inches you get only 15 Par, 18inches from light is 12 Par.

Low Light plants, as shown by another chart on the page need 15-30Par at subtrate level. 
Medium Light platns need 35-65Par at subtrate level.

Your 30g tank is 16 inches high - 2 inches for subtrate which means you have approx 14 inches between subtrate level to light. 
That will give you approx 13 Par.

However, if you have the medium light plants about the middle of the tank, or higher to the water surface, you could get 2 of the smaller Current units (model#4001) 24-36inch for $69.18 each about $140+tx total, and it should help boost your PAR levels in the middle of the tank to help with your medium light plants. It won't double your Par, but it should take that 13 and take it up to about 25Par at 14 inches. 
https://www.amazon.ca/Current-USA-S...7&sr=8-12&keywords=aquarium+led+light+36+inch

Now, you could also go for one of the cheaper, no name companies like NICREW who changed company names on lights every year or so. They are hit and miss. Many people like them. I put a tiny 18w full spectrum on my 14g biocube and it's growing low light plants just fine. But, they are not water proof, so you need to ensure you use them with a glass top.

This light from Zeiger (a NICREW rebrand maybe?) is getting some decent reviews, and at least with one review, we know there is a customer service to fix issues. 
https://www.amazon.ca/Aquarium-Salt...84&sr=8-4&keywords=aquarium+led+light+36+inch
This light is 32watts at 36 inches. Twice the amount as Current Satellite, with slightly fewer leds. PLUS, you get the RGB lights for added spectrum. The Par on these light would be more than the Current Satellite, and you wouldn't have an issue with medium light plants with only one fixture.

But keep in mind, you will need a glass top for the light to prevent water splash and evaporation from getting inside the light unit. It may also not be cUL approved (which is why you don't see the Finnex fixtures and others available in the USA available here, and those that are, are insanely more expensive).

Sorry if I'm over explaining. But hope this helps.


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## TOtrees (Sep 21, 2017)

@nebthet78 Thanks for the incredible analysis and thought on my question...
So current USA has 3 lines of lights that would fit on a 36" tank, they are the 4002, 4007 and 4012. The low end, mid range, and high end, if you will. The low end has the single row of LED's and I don't think it would work for me (I think that's the one you linked to on amazon). The mid range would be fine, I think, and the high end would be overkill for me. I hadn't see/found the spec sheet summary for the current lights, so that's for that link, it's incredibly useful. 
I like the off-brand one you linked in your email, thanks for that suggestion. I did see buried in the details that a) none of the reviews mention planted tanks, and b) the specs say to search for a different light for plants or corals.
Question: I have a 36" long tank, do you think I can get by with the 24-36" range of lights, or do I need the 36-48" range? I've seen different opinions, and any who can share their own experience will be gratefully acknowledged. Thus far I've been shopping assuming I'd need the 36"+ size, but I could save a few bucks if going down to the "up to" 36's. 
How do you think all this could compare to a single 36" T5HO bulb, at 39W? I know a hydroponics place in markham where I can get a fixture for $30, with reflector. It would need to be mounted or hung, but can't beat the price. 
Thanks!!


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## Nebthet78 (Aug 21, 2017)

TOtrees said:


> @nebthet78 Thanks for the incredible analysis and thought on my question...
> So current USA has 3 lines of lights that would fit on a 36" tank, they are the 4002, 4007 and 4012. The low end, mid range, and high end, if you will. The low end has the single row of LED's and I don't think it would work for me (I think that's the one you linked to on amazon). The mid range would be fine, I think, and the high end would be overkill for me. I hadn't see/found the spec sheet summary for the current lights, so that's for that link, it's incredibly useful.
> I like the off-brand one you linked in your email, thanks for that suggestion. I did see buried in the details that a) none of the reviews mention planted tanks, and b) the specs say to search for a different light for plants or corals.
> Question: I have a 36" long tank, do you think I can get by with the 24-36" range of lights, or do I need the 36-48" range? I've seen different opinions, and any who can share their own experience will be gratefully acknowledged. Thus far I've been shopping assuming I'd need the 36"+ size, but I could save a few bucks if going down to the "up to" 36's.
> ...


If you are going to have any plants any where OTHER than the centre of your tank then I would not suggest going with the 24-36inch fixture.

Basically, the light from LEDS comes down in a triangle due to the optics. 120 degree optics gives you a wider angle, while 60 degree optics give you a tighter angle. Those optics can affect your PAR Value, and spread. Most light fixtures are made with 120 degree optics.

IE: Look at the top image here to get what I'm talking about. 
https://www.theaquariumsolution.com/sites/default/files/files/u2/AI-optics2.jpg

Lets say this image represents an optics of 120 degrees. The Blue is the max spread from the light. The Red is your highest Par area, which is basically the area right underneath your light fixture.

This image not only represents the light spread for the length of your tank, but the sides too. So if you go with a 24 inch fixture, light spread will only reach a small area outside the ends of that fixture, on a 36 inch tank, it means you will have an area where you are unable to get plants to grow at all because not enough light is reaching them.

This is why it is always best to get the full sized light to match the length of your tank, so that you get the appropriate PAR levels in all areas you want to plant.

You could do the 24 inch fixture, BUT, it will limit your aquascape to an island style either in the middle or off to one side.

For T5HO fixtures, these are also good and most of the really good hobbyists here whom have amazing tanks use these lights and love them. They are well tested, reliable and you have an amazing choice in bulb colours. More so than LEDS at this time. And if you know where to look, you can get fixtures for reasonable prices. (Unlike LED fixtures at this time).

Keep in mind, you will need to replace the bulbs about every 8 months to a year, depending on how plants growth changes, but you can buy basic 6500k bulbs at Home Depot.

I would recommend for you, a 36" dual bulb T5H0 fixture.

I'm not sure exactly where you live, or if the guy you were talking about has dual units with reflectors, but I did find a couple Kijiji ads from people selling their units.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-pet-accesso...ht/1328279126?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-fish/city-o...re/1327317680?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

And don't forget to check the Hardware for sale Ads on this forum.


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## TOtrees (Sep 21, 2017)

I am SO appreciative of the time u put into your posts, neb. Tku!
Yes I can get dual t5s locally, but here's my question/concern: as noted previously, I'm currently running 20w of cfl over a 20 gal. To keep light as my limiting factor, I need to dial back duration, more than I'd like (not interested in co2 at this time, at all, full stop). If I jump to a dual t5, ill be putting almost 80w over 30 gal, w same depth. I know wpg isn't the standard anymore but the back of the envelope math tells me ill be way over my current light levels. That's why, if I go w t5 - and it's looking like best option at this time - I'd stay w a single tube. I would/could add a cheap led for crepuscular lighting,and to give that led shimmer we all love. Or do u think I'm in left field?
Thoughts?
Thanks!!


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## Nebthet78 (Aug 21, 2017)

TOtrees said:


> I am SO appreciative of the time u put into your posts, neb. Tku!
> Yes I can get dual t5s locally, but here's my question/concern: as noted previously, I'm currently running 20w of cfl over a 20 gal. To keep light as my limiting factor, I need to dial back duration, more than I'd like (not interested in co2 at this time, at all, full stop). If I jump to a dual t5, ill be putting almost 80w over 30 gal, w same depth. I know wpg isn't the standard anymore but the back of the envelope math tells me ill be way over my current light levels. That's why, if I go w t5 - and it's looking like best option at this time - I'd stay w a single tube. I would/could add a cheap led for crepuscular lighting,and to give that led shimmer we all love. Or do u think I'm in left field?
> Thoughts?
> Thanks!!


One of the nice things about T5 fixtures is that you don't have to use both bulbs for the light to work. This will give you some wiggle room with the light as you learn how you adapts to your new tank. (especially if the light has seperate on/off for each bulb)

Also keep in mind that the bulb types are very different. T5 bulbs are long and narrow only 5/8ths of an inch tube stretched out the length of your tank. CFL bulbs are big and coiled in confined area. Their light penetration and usuable PAR does not span the full length nor depth of a tank, leaving areas that plants just don't do very well, despite having lots of wattage.

You want your lights to balance out so your plants have good growth, with little to no algae. But not stalled out or very little growth. 
You don't have to have CO2 with higher light levels either ,though it does help with algae and plant growth. A lot of people split their photo period to prevent algae. 4 on, 5 off, 4 on, then off the rest of the night.

Also keep in mind I'm just making a suggestion based on what is typically best for low and medium plant growth at that tank size, while allowing you to keep options open if you want to change things and put medium light plants in the future. But ultimately you need to choose what you are comfortable working with.

By the way, How many hours are you leaving your current lights on? Is your tank near an open curtained window in your home?


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I suggest 1 T5HO if your not planning on co2 or you can just stick with your CFLs and get some nice ridiculous large ceiling lamps to make it look more "modern". This is an old vid but a couple 24w-26w CFL will grow plants better than the crappy usa I mean current usa led.

old goldfish tank video


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## TOtrees (Sep 21, 2017)

Thanks again neb, and thanks also coldmantis. 
My lights are on 3.5, off 4, and on again 4. Off all night. There is a set of sliding glass doors nearby, but it faces north into a darkish postage stamp of a townhouse back yard. Not an expert, but I don think there's enough plant-useful light coming in to be part of the equation. 
Longer days in summer, and late day low azimuth sun might change that equation, time will tell. 
My current cfls are a) nearing 6 months age, and b) set in hood-mounted fixtures, so I don't plan on reusing them. 
I've seen mixed info online about dual t5s. I don't think I can count on separate switches, are u saying a dual fixture will work with only 1 bulb? Without flickering?


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## Nebthet78 (Aug 21, 2017)

TOtrees said:


> Thanks again neb, and thanks also coldmantis.
> My lights are on 3.5, off 4, and on again 4. Off all night. There is a set of sliding glass doors nearby, but it faces north into a darkish postage stamp of a townhouse back yard. Not an expert, but I don think there's enough plant-useful light coming in to be part of the equation.
> Longer days in summer, and late day low azimuth sun might change that equation, time will tell.
> My current cfls are a) nearing 6 months age, and b) set in hood-mounted fixtures, so I don't plan on reusing them.
> I've seen mixed info online about dual t5s. I don't think I can count on separate switches, are u saying a dual fixture will work with only 1 bulb? Without flickering?


I've never had any flickering from using only one bulb in a dual T5 fixture. They are wired seperately to the ballast, so if one bulb burns out, it doesn't affect the other when removed or replaced. 
But overall, as Coldmantis said, it's probably best for you to use a single T5 bulb since you have low light plants and won't be using CO2.


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## TOtrees (Sep 21, 2017)

What about those led tubes that are compatible w t8s and 12s? Do they make them for t5 HO, and if so can I run one true HO tube w one led? As a way to attenuate the overall light from a dual fixture?
Thx (again!)


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## planter (Jun 9, 2008)

those will not crank out the light your going to need.


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## TOtrees (Sep 21, 2017)

Thanks planted, not sure how much of the thread above u've absorbed, but I'm looking a single tube t5 HO for the plants, and an led for shimmer/effect. So I'd get both of those IF I can mix true t5 HO and led tubes in a dual fixture. If that combo won't work, I'd go w separate units.


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## flyingmomo (Jul 6, 2017)

Keeping this thead saved, I also have a question
was thinking of getting 2 of these lamps

https://www.amazon.ca/Woods-2-Gauge...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KY6VQJDFHCRQVMSMA04T

with LED bulbs. Hoping to get medium level light for my tank. Any suggestions would be helpful


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