# gravity fed Refuge/Sump - help designing system



## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

I need help designing a system that will allow me to turn a 15G Tall into a sump/refuge. I want to start a siphon to pull water from Display to the sump, then use a maxi-jet or similar to pump water back to the tank.

However, if there is a power-outtage, will the siphon break and will my Display flood?

Also, what size tubing should I use, what pump, etc. 

I'm running out of room in the DT and since I have most of the equipment already, this sump idea seems to be the most cost-effective for the next 6-8 months.


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## andco (Aug 15, 2011)

Hey, I had a similar problem with my setup. I ended up putting a 10 gallon above my 45 gallon and had it as a "sump". Check out the picture below... I have since added an addiitonal 7 gallon refugium as well using the similar method.

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/309393_10150324975199833_504454832_8156903_286310066_n.jpg


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

andco said:


> Hey, I had a similar problem with my setup. I ended up putting a 10 gallon above my 45 gallon and had it as a "sump". Check out the picture below... I have since added an addiitonal 7 gallon refugium as well using the similar method.
> 
> http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/309393_10150324975199833_504454832_8156903_286310066_n.jpg


Sorry to say, but it is way to overflow

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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

andco said:


> Hey, I had a similar problem with my setup. I ended up putting a 10 gallon above my 45 gallon and had it as a "sump". Check out the picture below... I have since added an addiitonal 7 gallon refugium as well using the similar method.
> 
> http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/309393_10150324975199833_504454832_8156903_286310066_n.jpg


oh, neat!

so, you pump the water UP and then when it leaves the sump gravity brings it back to the display? Interesting..


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

BettaBeats said:


> oh, neat!
> 
> so, you pump the water UP and then when it leaves the sump gravity brings it back to the display? Interesting..


It is really interesting. The main point of the sump to be able to accept water from the tank when the pump stops.
In this case you will get all water from the top tank back to the main tank.
You must at least install back flow preventors.

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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah Sig,
I'm contemplating what I can do.
It looks like it might be a full upgrade soon. 

I really just wanted to siphon water from the DT to a sump below, then pump it back up to the DT. But if the power goes out and the siphon breaks, then the whole thing stops and the DT will flood with the water from the sump.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

you can make sump like this within 2 hours. Just get glass or acrylic pieces. and you do not need euro bracing

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/a/sump_model_a.html

have a look on this site. Left side of the page
http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html
There are many designs and you do not need to make them acrylic

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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

sig said:


> you can make sump like this within 2 hours. Just get glass or acrylic pieces. and you do not need euro bracing
> 
> http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/a/sump_model_a.html
> 
> ...


I just hope I don't have to drill a tank. 
My biggest thing right now is if I upgrade I will have to run two systems simultaneously until the new set up can handle the bioload I have now.

Ugh, lots of work and things to save up for..


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

this is exactly what i want!

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

That's the only safe way to do it without drilling the tank. And I think Marc has a guide somewhere there on his site on how to build that siphon overflow box.


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## andco (Aug 15, 2011)

sig said:


> It is really interesting. The main point of the sump to be able to accept water from the tank when the pump stops.
> In this case you will get all water from the top tank back to the main tank.
> You must at least install back flow preventors.


SIG - You are kinda correct, but way off. I designed it to essentially make the main tank the sump in this case. Because I didn't have the space, nor the willingness to tear down and drill the overflow, this was the best option.

Basically, it pumps water up to the top tank into a bio ball media, then into a live rock chamber, then into a pile of sponges, then out. However, the key was to ensure if the power does go out, that a minimal amount of water comes back. so by design, when (if the power goes out..average about 2 times per year), only between 550 to 580ml flows back into the tank. This is based on numerous tests prior to installing the tank. which, unless the power goes out within 20 min of me topping up the tank, I have no worries whatsoever.

Bottom line - this is essentially a giant HOT filter, with sponges etc.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

man, I did not mean your particular setup. It tried to say about approach in general.

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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

I run several systems in the shop using siphons to pull the water down to a sump. I came up with my own system but there are plenty of ways to build a siphon that auto recovers after a power outage and just as inmportantly, stops siphoning when the pump stops.. My systems have been running for two years. 

I keep planning on doing a tutorial. Maybe today.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Well drop me a line when you write up that tutorial as I want to eventually add a refugium. 

I have been reading a lot about the overflow boxes and some of the nightmare floods that have happened due to the overflow boxes losing the siphon (cpr).

Lots of raves about lifereef overflow boxes that apparently have never lost their siphon or overflowed.


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

Basically one tank wheter the refugium or main tank has to be higher than the other so water overflow to the other tank. Therefore only one pump is required. Water from the pump should only flow one way, if the pump is dead water shouldn't flow the other way because the outlet is higher than the water level so there won't be any suction. Go to big als and look at those refugium you'll understand how it should work.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

I have the basics down pat. 

It is more about making sure I get the best equipment (no floods LOL) to avoid my wife throwing my packed suitcase off of the balcony


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

Shouldn't flood unless the tanks leak and there shouldn't be back flow. the outlet which water flow from the pump should be higher than the water level therefore there is no suction for water to back flow


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

I didn't think there would be either but apparently some of the overflkow boxes malfunction when there is a power outage, and bubbles getting trapped and siphon eventually being lost. Mentioned have been both the CPR and Eshopps boxes.

There are some mods out there that have minimized the problems but these problems shouldn't be there in the first place. I would have thought the manufacturers would have rectified the problem by now since this is not new.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Tim said:


> I didn't think there would be either but apparently some of the overflkow boxes malfunction when there is a power outage, and bubbles getting trapped and siphon eventually being lost. Mentioned have been both the CPR and Eshopps boxes.
> 
> There are some mods out there that have minimized the problems but these problems shouldn't be there in the first place. I would have thought the manufacturers would have rectified the problem by now since this is not new.


Why to spend all these money and create headache, when you can make a sump for $20

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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

Yep basically one tank has got to have a hole for the pumped water to overflow out to the other tank. I wouldn't just depend on tubing to siphon water out


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Not having my tank drilled has certainly caused a few headaches lol. live and learn


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

I have seen quite a few overflow boxes that work and maintain the siphon. I really don't anticipate the power going out in central Downtown Toronto. for my roommate who's lived here 11 years, he only had it go out during that big outage in 2008.

So, can anyone with *direct* experience comment on the possibility of having a gravity-fed sump?

Also, I do have battery back up that will run for 4-8 hours during an outage if that ever happens.


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

BettaBeats said:


> I have seen quite a few overflow boxes that work and maintain the siphon. I really don't anticipate the power going out in central Downtown Toronto. for my roommate who's lived here 11 years, he only had it go out during that big outage in 2008.
> 
> So, can anyone with *direct* experience comment on the possibility of having a gravity-fed sump?
> 
> Also, I do have battery back up that will run for 4-8 hours during an outage if that ever happens.


I live down the street from you, and in late Oct we lost power twice in our neighbourhood during the night. 3 hours the first and 6 hrs one sunday to do planned emergency repairs. I planned for such and event and didn't leave anything to chance.


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