# Fluval 404 issues on my new (adopted) setup



## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

I recently bought a tank from kijiji and got everything working properly, but i just need to do some final touch ups. the setup came with a Fluval 404 canister filter and for the life of me cant get this thing to work properly.

First off it took me a long time to figure out how to get it to actually filter the water. The manual and forums everywhere say to use the little primer pump and allow a little bit of water in which will force air out the other end. this will start a siphon and the rest is history. yea well its impossible. you'll need to do this for literally hours. so i just filled it with tap water and viola it works.

My questions are as follows:

The outflow hose. how far down the tank should it be? the hosing is kinda hard to bend so for me to keep it up high on the tank makes it hard for me to keep it there. i have a suction cup holding it now but it's about 6 inches from the top of my tank. there is no surface movement...

second, it seems as if the pressure on the outflow hose is very _very _low. I guess i dont know how much water should come out and how fast, but it can be best described as how little water you would use if you're trying to wash your hands and everyone is asleep. Make sense?
I guess my question is how can i fix this or does it actually need to be fixed?

last question, the strainer for my inflow hose had a ball in it to prevent big things from going in, but because the pressure is low, and i assume its not sucking as fast either, i took the ball out in the hopes that it would clean up big stuff and just do everything faster. is this bad becuase my tank is much clearer now..

thanks!


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

That flow sounds to be way slow

Where the output is doesnt really matter so much, my out flow is about 4 or 5 inches from the surface. I believe you want to see some movement of the surface.

not sure about the ball on the intake, that sounds weird, all the filter intakes ive seen have kinda a grill to prevent large things from going in, never heard of a ball.

If the flow is good with the ball out and there is some form of grill to keep fish out of the intake, then I say all is good. If flow is still bad, make sure the canister is sealed properly, if it is sucking air, that could effect pressure.


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

yea the flow is way too low. 

im currently uploading a video that we can all laugh at as to how bad the flow is.


it also shows the hosing setup and how i may have a kink or two, but i need the expert opinions of the gtaaquaria forums 

i doubt that there is air leaking, but im not 100% sure either way.


also, the cap that is attached to the underside of the motor may have an issue.

So the canister filter has the big canister and then top part, which is the motor. on the underside of the motor there is a big plastic circle with 2 plastic clips. this cap protects that magnetic pinwheel. this cap is also kinda broken and sometimes dislodges and stops the flow of water somehow.

i think it's ok now becuase it hasn't happened in a while, so maybe i just didnt put it on properly one or two times, but thats something to think about as well..




EDIT: seems as if the outflow is getting worse every day. And when i speak about the strainer, i mean within the strainer is a ball. this ball has been removed.


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

Video 1:





-continuing with what i was saying earlier, uplugging the filter will hav the impeller cover pop off which requires me to reattach it. this now happens 100% of the time.
-setting the filter back up shows a high pressure/fast flow on the output for a few seconds then back low. 
-filter seems to pump out some dirt as well, regardless of how often i clean it...


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

wow, that is low flow. I have only used a rena xp3 filter myself so I don't know your filter specifically.

Now the extra dirt when you first turn it on could just simply be sludge buildup in the hoses, I had this happen the last time I had my filter off and turned it on.

This gives me one idea, maybe your hoses are clogged? take them off and test out how water flows through at a sink, maybe the whole problem is just clogged hoses.

Another thing, with my filter at least, I am not supposed to plug it in until it is full of water. I prime mine differently when first setup but the rest seems to be the same. I have a lever that stops the flow from the top of the filter like yours, when I do filter maintenance, I open it up and wate a couple minutes for the water to flow in and the air to get out. Maybe you just arent getting it full of water before powering it and that is causing the problem.

Is your media maybe too dirty and causing the flow to be slow?

I don't know what the plastic part inside that you are having trouble with is, maybe if these other things dont fix it, make a video showing the inside of the filter. Unless someone who knows this specific filter is able to let you know more about this part.

Hope this helps.


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

pyrrolin said:


> wow, that is low flow. I have only used a rena xp3 filter myself so I don't know your filter specifically.
> 
> Now the extra dirt when you first turn it on could just simply be sludge buildup in the hoses, I had this happen the last time I had my filter off and turned it on.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll take the hoses apart tonight and see what happens.

I'll try cut some more off the back of my cupboard so my hoses have a more direct path, that way i wont need as much of a "loop".

Unless you guys think that this part is ok?

The fact that i was never able to have my filter start the siphon the way it should (with the primer) kind of worries me too, but according to google, i'm not the only one who had issues...

I also cleaned my filter media 3 times in the month in a half that i've had the tank, so thats not the issue either...

That ball that im talking about is nothhing other than a check ball within this:
http://di1-3.shoppingshadow.com/ima...val+Intake+strainer+with+check+ball+304+3.jpg

Inside that strainer is a small plastic ball. Big enough that it blocks 90% of the hosing. This is designed to prevent large things from getting in the filter.

Since my tank was getting really dirty due to my filter doing almost nothing, i took this ball out with the hopes that more dirt would be sucked up. And thats exactly what's happening. No issues here, i just want to make sure that there woulkdnt be any issues in the long run. but until i fix my filter, theres nothing to worry about here... yet!


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

that low flow probably is a big issue, its hard for the bio load in the filter to clean up ammonia and nitrites when the water doesn't really get to it.

The hoses seemed to be fine to me, no kinks to cut off flow.

Personally I'd leave the ball out, I don't see a need for it, most filters don't have one and work just fine.

If you don't have your filter full of water when you turn it on, it means its running dry, filters use the water to keep the parts cooled.

the way you prime a rena xp filter is, close off the filter, use the lever and on the intake there is a cap you remove and you fill the hose with water and put the cap on and open the lever and a siphon starts to fill the filter.

maybe you can do the same type of thing, close the flow, take end off the intake hose and fill the hose with water, put end back on and then open the lever. In theory, this should start the siphon to fill the filter.

This should only have to be done once and shouldnt have to do it again unless you drain the intake hose.

check he hoses for clogs before trying this so you don't have to do it twice.

you should also check the state of the gasket for the seal of the lid for the canister. If it is dry and cracking, that could be your whole issue.

your issue has been bugging me all night and I await an update to put my mind at rest.


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## Tbird (Oct 5, 2009)

Sorry I haven't had a chance to look at your videos but I doubt it is the seal. I had a problem with the seal / o ring and had a puddle on the floor. It could be the little disc you are talking about, depending on how the clips are broken. So your impellar may not be spinning properly. Although I would think that it would be fairly load if it didn't. I used that piece broken once and mine still sat in there properly. Although I would fix it if you can. 

What are you using for media? Any filter floss in there? That could reduce flow, especially if it gets clogged. Keep that little ball out, I never used it, found the few times that I tried it, it would reduce the flow too much. 

But as others have said, check your hoses, make sure they aren't plugged up. Make sure there are no kinks. One easy way to try to clean the hoses. Take the canister out, put a 5 gallon bucket under the hoses and open up the hoses, that should help get rid of some of the gunk in the hoses and you can also see what the flow is like.

As for setting up the filter, I just fill it to the top with tank water and then I use that little pump to get it going then plug it in. Once you have set it up, you really should not have to prime it again as long as the canister is full when you hook up the hoses again.

Hope this helps.

Later
Wil


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

I appreciate the help!

Hope you didnt lose too much sleep over this lol.

Once the filter is filled with water from my tap, i do not have to re-prime it. i was just simply saying that the only way iw as able to get it to work was by filling it with tap water first..

I'll clean out the hoses tonght. Those seem to be the most likely issue right now. I'll need to figure out a way to drain them and clean them out. Guess i'll look for a bucket...

The previous owner replaced the o-ring seal already, and yes if that was bad i'm sure i would have had a leak already.

Please watch the videos when you can and tell me if it sounds loud. I don't think it is, but if it should be whisper quiet then we may have a problem because it's definitely not.

I iknow the manuals say to never let it run dry but im sure the few seconds that i had it runing dry when i was first setting it up didnt do any damage. I took that warning as "please dont let it run dry for hours on end"

EDIT: I'm not sure exactly what kind of filter media it is, but the bottom tray looks like this: 
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p-27246-36844-fish-supply.jpg

second from the bottom is a bunch of, what looks like plastic wheels with spokes.

second from the top is another group of http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p-27246-36844-fish-supply.jpg

and the very top are 4 bags of what looks like some sort of charcoal filter or something.

I'll also try removing each tray, row by row to see if that is also contributing. I'll do this before i dismantle the hoses...


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Try this:

- take motorhead and tubing to a sink and fill with ~2" of water
- remove the intake hose and have the end of the return outlet of hose duct taped to the side of the sink. Put a dishcloth on the end to keep it from splashing.
- plug the motorhead in 

If there is any issue with flow, the problem could be one or a combination of the following:

- impeller magnet weak; not catching and synching with the magnetic field of the motorblock
- failing motorblock
- obstruction of debris in the impeller cap
- missing impeller shaft holder; the rubbery thing in the middle of the impeller cap

The old style impeller cap is clear plastic and the newer version is black. The newer version addressed the "popping out" when the filter in powered on.


HTH


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

A big benefit of canister filters is they are extremely quiet. Basically you should only be able to hear something if there is nothing else at all making noise. If you can hear it with a tv on, something is wrong.

great ideas wtac


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

wtac said:


> Try this:
> 
> - take motorhead and tubing to a sink and fill with ~2" of water
> - remove the intake hose and have the end of the return outlet of hose duct taped to the side of the sink. Put a dishcloth on the end to keep it from splashing.
> ...


These are great things to check for. I didnt even think of running it in my sink. Would it be bad if i totally submerge it?



pyrrolin said:


> A big benefit of canister filters is they are extremely quiet. Basically you should only be able to hear something if there is nothing else at all making noise. If you can hear it with a tv on, something is wrong.
> 
> great ideas wtac


I can def hear it with my tv on. Maybe it's my motor then?


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I wouldnt get the top wet, just in case, 

sounds like the impeller is the problem, all the impellers I've seen work on an electro magnetic thingy, if the impeller which has a magnetic thing on it is damaged, that could definitly cause all the problems, low flow and noise.

Im pretty sure you could replace that part easily


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/fluval/parts_diagram/404/

this might help you figure out what fluval 404 you have and give you part numbers if you need new parts


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

That may not be necessary 

I took down my hoses, attached them to my garden hose and just blew all the garbage out. There was a lot. 

I still can't see light through the other end though, which is weird...

But everything is working great and the flow is fantastic. 




I'm also drenched. 



Let's see how long this lasts . Thanks everyone!!!


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I win, I figured out the problem, where is my cookie?

glad its all working for you now


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

pyrrolin said:


> I win, I figured out the problem, where is my cookie?
> 
> glad its all working for you now


haha thanks. me too

and here: *gives cookie*

enjoy!


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## mazza2590 (Feb 28, 2011)

UPDATE:

So far so good. Flow has been strong since i did my cleanup.

New issues have come to light however...

That impeller cap that i was talking about before, yea well it finnally broke. Filter shut down until i got that replaced.

I went to big al's and the guy gave me the replacement, however he also noticed that the impeller pin, which connects this cap and goes through teh magnet to the other side, was also broken. How did he know? My impeller cap had half the white stick. THe other half was still stuck in my motor.

I had no idea that it was broken because i bought it used and just figured that it held the magnet in place anywys.

Well he gave me the new pin (for a 403) and the cap (For a 404). I put it all together and everything is working awesome. FIlter instantly started working again and believe it or not, i think its quieter. I guess having that full pin makes a difference.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

missing one pin would throw off the balance causing noise. I think I need to replace the same parts on some of my old used aquaclear HOB's to make them quieter and so I dont have to push start them.


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