# Options to export Phosphates?



## Davenreef (Jul 9, 2013)

Fellow reefers, i have been reading a significant amount about *current* options to export nitrates and phosphates and i am very interested to hear a few opinions on here about the topic. Now for a little background, i am currently in the midst of my latest reef start up, i have been live now for almost 3 weeks with fairly promising results, i initially cycled my tank with table shrimp (this went on for about 10 days) i also used dr tims one and only (or really a knock off product which yielded similar results)... After Following the typical cycle once my ammonia and nitrites were undetectable i added a couple chromis to give my tank some much needed routine, ie regular feedings... It has been about a week now with these two in the tank and sure enough i am having my diatom bloom. No changes in ammonia and nitrite i might add since the addition of these little fish. In any event i have a media reactor which is begging to have something run through it but i can not decide what to run. More background... In the past i ran biopellets which honestly i didnt really see any change in my chemistry. However if the consensus on here rings true to use biopellets i would probably reconsider. The other contenders include GFO and seachems purigen... I will be adding a cuc shortly but am also looking for input on if i should allow the cuc first crack at the diatomaceous algae or if i should start right away with the other options mentioned above.... I also have a robust fuge and dsb in my sump which will shortly have some macro algaes introduced. Looking for any and all advice!!! Also i will be sure to post some photos as the tank moves forward


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## ohdino (Jun 17, 2014)

I started with GFO and carbon to keep everything in check and worked extremely well for my tank for a few years.

Then I tried biopellets for about a year, and following directions, my tank got way too much nuisance algae (red slime and hair).

Back to GFO and carbon and everything is perfect again.

I know some have had no issues using biopellets.

Bottom line...stick to what works for your tank.

My $0.02.


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

GFO is a phosphate binder, IMO the most cost effective way to deal with PO4. 
BioPellets are a carbon "dosing" tool used for reducing Nitrates. 

GFO should be used in a reactor. I wouldn't bother with any other PO4 reducing strategy. Depending on the size of your system you can add GFO to the system with a TLF 150 reactor really cheap.

That being said I doubt you have significant PO4 right now with such a small bioload so there is no rush in getting a reactor online. Get some CUC in there first. 

Get a P04 test kit and when you do add GFO start with 1/2 the recommended dose.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

+1 w/Fesso

If you are going to employ a macroalgae refugium, get that going first and use GFO to remove the excess PO4 as you do not want to starve the macroalgea of a P source. Using too much GFO will have an impact not only on macroalgae growth but will drop your kH/alk a bit as well.

BP/BC work well (if used correctly) but you need a good skimmer and an aquarium full of corals/organisms that will utilize the sloughed off biofilm or potentially have issues of RSA and HA when the micororganisms that created the biofilm dies and decomposes into it's base components of C, N and P as the main aquarium isn't the ideal environment for them.

Do one thing at a time and adjust/adapt accordingly.

HTH


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## darcyr (Jan 24, 2014)

I have a small refugium, gfo reactor, skimmer, run purigen and chemipure elite, use 0 tds RODI for weekly water changes and still get diatoms on my sand. I think flow is a big factor for these things to grow. Im going to swap my wavemaker for an mp10 and see if that helps.


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## Davenreef (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback. I think it makes sense to wait on gfo in my reactor while my fuge transitions into an established part of the phosphate reduction mechanism. I bought some chaeto today along with a small cuc to start managing unwanted algae in the display. I will test my PO4 tonight and use as a baseline for future tracking and as a gauge for when i should fire up the reactor. Btw i do have a single reactor (vertex 2L) which i was considering running gfo on bottom and carbon on top (downstream) (and a foam pad in between) to catch any gfo dust trying to escape. For GFO i was planning on using PURA Phoslock, Ive read that it works quite well but that it is finicky with how much agitation it can handle before becoming a problem. Anyone with any actual experience with this product or might recommend a better alternative?


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## darcyr (Jan 24, 2014)

Don't get PURA phoslock if you're putting it in a reactor, it wont tumble at all as the granule size is too big. Im using ROWAphos now and it 'fluidizes' as it's supposed to. I think BRS and TLF brands are cheaper so I might try those next.


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## Davenreef (Jul 9, 2013)

darcyr said:


> Don't get PURA phoslock if you're putting it in a reactor, it wont tumble at all as the granule size is too big. Im using ROWAphos now and it 'fluidizes' as it's supposed to. I think BRS and TLF brands are cheaper so I might try those next.


Yeah i had heard something similar about the phoslock in a reactor, it comes with a media bag and a tutorial video emphasizing the importance of no agitation within a fluidized reactor, maybe just keep it in the media bag provided and set it up in my sump somewhere, And let whatever PO4 leaching happen as it may?


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

why not just use plain old GFO? all that other stuff seems to me to be just fancy marketing for the main active ingredient - granular ferric oxide.


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## Davenreef (Jul 9, 2013)

fesso clown said:


> why not just use plain old GFO? all that other stuff seems to me to be just fancy marketing for the main active ingredient - granular ferric oxide.


It was a high pressure sales pitch.... Needless to say I own a small tub now...  anyway i suppose i can try it out and see how it performs...

Back to the point though, everyone here seems to be in agreement about GFO tho. Thanks for the replies all. . And i will post some pics soon.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Davenreef said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I think it makes sense to wait on gfo in my reactor while my fuge transitions into an established part of the phosphate reduction mechanism.


you will wait forever and it will never happen. you can not build fuge big enough to support "phosphate reduction mechanism". small amount of gfo will it it better, cleaner, faster and cheaper

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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

+1 what Sig said. GFO has been a God send for me in maintaining water quality. If you are looking for another route some people swear by algae turf scrubbers. I have never used one though.


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## notclear (Nov 5, 2011)

Lanthanum Chloride or the diluted version Foz Down.

Wondering so far why no one has mentioned this.


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## Reef Hero (Mar 2, 2014)

notclear said:


> Lanthanum Chloride or the diluted version Foz Down.
> 
> Wondering so far why no one has mentioned this.


+1

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

notclear said:


> Lanthanum Chloride or the diluted version Foz Down.
> 
> Wondering so far why no one has mentioned this.


If I new what it is, I would mention. So I have no comments
Went to RC and found it

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1333212

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## Reef Hero (Mar 2, 2014)

Foz down worked very well for me. I still have quite a bit leftover if anyone is interested in trying it too.


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## notclear (Nov 5, 2011)

^ same here.

Here is some info posted by Tim (the one who produces this Foz Down product) in another forum some years ago:

*****

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the interest in the product. 

Cyano Starver is the first version of the product without the buffer. I changed the name to Foz Down because it also works in freshwater and ponds. I have also added a trace amount of buffer to the Foz Down. The web page for the product will be up shortly.

As with all of my products, they are produced because I use them myself, found them to be effective and reef safe, so I produced them to help hobbyists.

About a year ago I switched from High Capacity Granular Ferric Oxide to the chemical behind Foz Down. I was tired of the monthly expense of 3 lbs of High Capacity GFO to remove phosphate from my coral grow out system. Since I feed heavily it generates a lot of PO4. Since switching to this product I have not had to use any HC GFO. I add the Foz Down directly to the 135 gallon sump and let it settle out. I test for Phosphate using a Lamotte Smart Colorimeter. I have been doing that for over a year.


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## Davenreef (Jul 9, 2013)

sig said:


> If I new what it is, I would mention. So I have no comments
> Went to RC and found it
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1333212


Thx for the link, yup never heard of this one either. Plus from what little bit i did read it seems like a lot of members were preferring gfo anyway at least on the first page, as i have no experience i leave it to the pros on here to discuss its benefits and draw backs. Now in regards to my plans for Po4 reduction via a fuge. I think it is worth to mention that my fuge is the same water volume as my display (or near enough aprox 60gallons). I thought (gets me into trouble sometimes) that this water volume dedicated to a fuge (equally proportional to display tank) combined with some macro flora (chaeto and mangroves) would do a decent job reducing Po4??? All that to say I have started some pura phoslock just in a bag being run through my return section in my sump... Prior to adding the gfo my po4 read 0.16 (jan 28) so we will see how experiment fares.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

IMHO/E, LaCl3 is the most effective and inexpensive route but the least forgiving of all methods. The LaPO4 precipitate in excess in the water, will have ill effects on the fish by clogging up the gill structure and suffocating them. Not to dismiss the other members success but I'm just throwing in the caution that must be exercised using this method. 

Ideally you want to dose an amount in a reactor and have a secondary chamber packed with floss to trap the precipitate. I've repurposed a dual chamber calcium reactor to do the same job and can see reconfiguring two RO filter housings like the BRS Dual reactor to do the same thing. Depends on how much you want to initially invest and visual appeal of "showing off your gear".

You don't want to drop the PO4 too fast either as your corals zooxanthellae won't like it too much. Unbuffered LaCl3, like any other PO4 removing media will drop the alk and that has to be monitored and taken into account as well. 

IMHO/E, a larger refugium the better. The more biomass you can "cultivate", the more N and P you can bind/remove from the water. What PO4 is still present, use a PO4 removing method that you feel comfortable in using for the remainder.

JM2C/E/HTH


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## Davenreef (Jul 9, 2013)

Today i measured the PO4 and it read somewhere between 0.08 and 0.16. I am using the Red Sea test kit so that is as accurate as it can be. Seems like the phoslock is starting to work. I also calibrated my skimmer so that might be having an effect as well.


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## Hamish (Apr 18, 2014)

*PO4 Removal*

First off, Sounds like new tank syndrome. GFO is the best thing to use once your tank matures, Using the best water is the cure for all. RO/DI and absolutely 0TDS. Now if your Po4 is off the charts then I would recommend and this is not for mature tanks but I have had great success with Phos Guard but you have to be cautious with it as most people will say it emits Aluminum in the tank but as I say with a new start up and rock that is saturated with PO4 then I'd use it. Once you get the PO4 down to acceptable levels then run GFO and Carbon 24/7 and the best water out there. And get a Hanna Checker for Phosphate.


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## Curtis22 (Dec 11, 2014)

The most important things i can say on PHOSPHATE and GFO after my experiences with algae in my life: 

First of all Phosphate is the devil, once it builds to high levels will cost you lots of money and time to get it down not just water changes ! You cannot lower phosphate with Water changes like Nitrates like you may think. You NEED A GFO. Dont believe me, buy a HANNA PHOSPHOROUS meter not a phosphate meter to measure such low concentrations of phosphate!! There is phosphate in your tap water, even if you use the most expensive RODI unit with 0ppm there will be phosphate in that water if you test it with a hanna phosphorous meter!! 

So, basically there is no way around managing phosphate - because ultimately there will most likely be 0.04ppm in your tap water or more so you need a remover/GFO. Personally i say spend the money and buy Rowaphos or Phosban and use a Reactor. A bag full in high flow simply will not work well and waste your money and time. 

IMPORTANT NOTE - DO NOT USE GFO AND A CARBON DOSING SOURCE AT THE SAME TIME. If you are using GFO to lower phosphates do not be dosing vodka or NO3PO4x, vinegar, whatever at the same time for your Nitrates. You need to choose one or the other. If you run GFO and CARBON SOURCE like nopox at the same time you will strip the water of it nitrates and the biological sources needed to break down many things like phosphate and you will not be able to rid your hair algea even though you might think your water is perfect because it tests zero for nitrate and low for phosphate because your test kit doesnt work ! Zero nitrate is not what you want. There is a balance between feeding, or changing your filter socks, or how much you clean. Every tank is different. If you change a filter sock daily and your nitrates are zero, you are not feeding enough or changing your socks too often or over syphoning. If your nitrates are high, you need to step these things up. Find the right balance for your tank.

You need to imagine Nitrates and phosphates as separate things to treat but they do influence eachother in ways which are very complicated to understand and i wont get into. But i will say if you have zero nitrates and some phosphates you will have a difficult time lowering phosphates as nitrates influence their reduction as well. There is a fine balance of everything in your system. IF you lower phosphates too fast....algae bloom, if you feed too much ....algae bloom.....change your lighting too bright algae bloom, something dies.....well algae bloom....

Let me make this visual for you how sensitive the Phosphate READINGS are:
1) PERFECT LEVELS 0.00 - 0.02
2) OK LEVELS 0.02 - 0.04
3) NOT GOOD LEVELS 0.04-0.06
4) BAD LEVELS 0.06 - 0.16
5) AWFUL LEVELS 0.16 - 0.64
6) FIND A NEW HOBBY LEVELS 0.64 + 

Most people who have no idea how to manage phosphates or use poor test kits have levels 1ppm-2ppm or may be shocked how high they actually are. Or might wonder why they never come down!! And guess what, when you get your levels down to 0.08 0.16 which is still a high phosphate reading your test kit is going to tell you that you have zero phosphate and your going to wonder why you still have hair algae forming so fast because the only meter that works that low is the hanna phophorous checker! It begins to play mind games on you because phosphates can even lie undetectable from the water column so they could be in your tank in rocks and sand but your tests are lower than should be.

Corals get used to high levels of phosphates, i dont think its as bad for them as the changes in phosphate levels. However lowering them is essential to eliminating that cyano but in any hurry can bleach or hurt corals. This is why i dont recommend using phoslock however it is a product that will help you save money and time as you are going to need a lot of GFO and TIME to get your levels down from insanity to normal levels is not easy. Using a turkey baster on your rocks and gravel daily is key.


TRUST ME, no test kit works if your phosphates are below 0.08 - 0.16 ppm and below except the HANNA ULTRA LOW PHOSPHOROUS meter and you need them at 0.02 as algea forms at 0.04. I used to think my RED SEA phosphate test did the trick telling me my phosphates were zero forever and undetectable however the hanna meter read 0.09ppm. 

It is so easy to add phosphate to your tank or let it build, it is not so easy removing it properly.

We are testing such low levels of phosphate in our tanks you need a hanna meter if you want to care about removing the phosphates to such low levels.

So its better to use less, and let the GFO SATURATE with PHOSPHATE. Every tank is different depending on your phosphate levels, circulation, and if you blow out your rocks and sand a lot how long it will take to fill up the GFO til it is no longer working so nobody can tell you when to change it or how much to use. The bottom line is in the beginning your going to have to change your GFO after a day or two, then next time after a week, then next time maybe after two weeks, then change it again after 3 weeks....then keep changing it monthly ....but the only way to actually know is to test the water coming out of the phosban reactor and if it starts to climb in any way you need to change it. At first you may need to test a lot, but over time you will get used to your system and its balance. 

Your reading should be lower coming from the reactor than the reading of your tank to know the GFO is still working and not saturated. IF it becomes full, it no longer works, then your feeding will make phosphates go back up again defeating everything you just spent time to lower and money on GFO. So dont waste your money and just use GFO, you need to have the right test kit to watch the levels come down without going back up ever. Once at 0 you dont need to change GFO very much, maybe once every 3 months !! In the beginning you might need to change it often and spend way more money than you think and time to bring them down. For example if your Phosphate is as high as 2ppm you probably need to change your GFO 10 times as often as needed to get them down to zero and this may take you 1-4 months depending on so many things. But nobody can tell you how much GFO to use in your reactor as it depends how often you change it and test it and on your system. I just recommend changing more often and using less is way safer and continue to measure phosphates with a hanna to make sure you not lowering too fast or that the GFO is expired and needs to be changed.


Try not to feed flake food or high phosphate foods or cube foods without rinsing them well. Step up syphoning through a filter sock into your sump or a garbage can and SAVE YOUR WATER instead of throwing water out for a water change. Concentrating on cleaning, syphoning, skimming, and basting rocks daily if you have any nitrate issues. Water changes are not always the best solution and may even cause a problem. Concentrate on lowering nitrates and let the GFO bring down your phosphates over time and find your balance of feeding cleaning and filtering and your tank will become ultra low nutrient with less organic matter therefore you can start adding amino acids and making your corals come to life ! Dont add these supplements until you get nitrates and phosphates to right levels and rid of hair algea.

Sorry for novel but i wish someone tried to explain this to me many years ago. 

I run GFO and Carbon 24/7 also.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

agree with many points, but why would we TRUST YOU? 

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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

*Re: rinsing frozen foods to remove phosphates*

This is a common myth that Randy Holmes Farley wrote about in 2012



> Rinsing Foods and the Effect on Phosphate
> Now that we have some information on the phosphate in foods, we can critically examine the concern that many aquarists have about foods, and specifically their rinsing of frozen foods before use. A typical test you see is someone taking a cube of fish food, thawing it, and putting it into a half cup of water. They then test that water for phosphate and find it "off the charts". Let's assume that means 1 ppm phosphate, which would give a very dark blue color in many phosphate tests. Bear in mind this is a thought problem, not an actual measured value, but it is typical of what people think the answer is.
> 
> Is that a lot of phosphate? Well, there are two ways to think of the answer.
> ...


Here is then ink to to whole article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

I would add I don't see the point the of buying frozen foods that have been enriched with amino acids and have small particulate foods like phyto, cyclopeeze etc if you are going to wash it down the drain. But as Randy noted, it is a decision each reefer has to make for themselves.


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## Curtis22 (Dec 11, 2014)

Maybe i was not clear.

If you dont rinse your fish foods (especially if you make your own foods) you will not be able to feed it as often as you would like to all your fish without increasing your nitrates. 

You will make your skimmer work overtime for no reason - I make all different kinds of food, some i dont rinse as its coral food, but i dont use it as often and spot feed with it. Some i blend to mush some is course so it doesn't pollute the water and can be fed more often. 

Anyways all i was saying was to try rinsing your food if you have nitrate or algea problems or if you dont usually rinse your food as one way to try to help out....It is obviously better if you dont rinse your food for your corals, but you may want to start if your having nitrate problems or difficulty lowering them. So, i was not referring to phosphates and rinsing food but to nitrates, algea issues, and high organics with food rinsing. 

When you dont rinse your food You are adding way too many particles that are either not consumed or get caught up in your filter or floss or under your rocks where you are not cleaning enough, changing your floss or socks often enough, or have enough circulation to keep things suspended into the water column. Wavemakers will make a world of difference in your tank vs a koralia constantly blowing the same laminar flow...things will settle, pulsing pumps or variable flow doesnt allow anything to settle. For example, i have glass bottom tank no substrate. It had 4 koralias in it, i had to syphon debris off the bottom of the tank daily. I now replaced all 4 koralias with 1 jebao RW 8 wavemaker....i maybe syphon the bottom once a week now because nothing seems to ever settle, there is a constant upwell of flow lifting particles off the bottom now instead of just blowing them around to a point where they settle and get trapped on the floor. This is why its important to turkey baste under rocks or cracks where you dont have the best flow or you dont have enough snails aerating your substrate or cleaning it enough or your not siphoning long enough and keeping your water. 

If you rinse your FISH foods as best as you can you can feed more often. Your foods should be clouding your water as little as possible each time you feed the fish only and making sure any food is eaten within a minute or two. It would better to pour one cup of food into your tank 3 times over 15 minutes than to dump the entire cup in all at one time.

Regarding Amino Acids, i am not saying i add them with my fish or coral foods. I was saying you should not be adding Amino acids if you have high nutrients in your tank (any nitrates or phosphate issues or algea in your tank). You should only be adding such products if you run an ultra low nutrient system with zero algea, near zero nitrate, near zero phosphates. I never do water changes because my tank gets more than enough water daily from evaporation and never has nitrates, i would never add any products to fight nitrate or algea even if i had the "problems" all you have to do is step up your maintenance program or implement one or find the problem thats causing your nitrates. You dont need any products for them period. 

However, because everyone always has something to say, there are systems that have insane bioloads who do infact benifit from these products and may need them. Im not going to say what to use or not use, I just highly doubt you do in fact need any products unless you have a full blown reef that you cant possibly keep up with the maintenance and bioload you may need the help. The same goes for any products to lower phosphates...they are not going to work in the long run if you keep adding phosphates through feeding/poo ...... or dont fix your problem and you will waste your money for a temporary fix. Your fish will still be stressed and probably have ich. 

The bottom line is You need GFO to lower phosphate. Totally separate thing and a needed if you want to rid your algae for good. 

I can name about 15 ways you can lower your nitrates but i only know of 1 that will remove your phosphates (and not just cover them up or hide them from the test kit).



I used to use red sea A and B but i now use KZ High Concentrate Amino acids and many of my SPS totally changed to a more electric color. You need to be careful dosing amino acids as they raise nitrates and phosphates. Do not add them if you dont have a perfect system. And if you are overdosing or adding them when you have high nutrients in your water your corals will be turning pale and brown !


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## Curtis22 (Dec 11, 2014)

sig said:


> agree with many points, but why would we TRUST YOU?
> 
> [URL=http://s258.photobucket.com/user/Sig_1959/media/images_zpsa3ec22ee.jpg.html]


Because im a NEWB


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## Hamish (Apr 18, 2014)

*Bubble Algea*

The worst out break of Phosphate was from used Argonite. I bought it from a store in Georgetown. Does it cause BA or is it imported to our tank when adding Corals or Rock? I think although unsightly that is one of the easiest Algeas to control.And I would agree the Phosphorous Checker is the one to purchase.


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