# My first aquarium



## Ella

Hi everyone.... I found this site a few days ago and have been reading voraciously, and decided to join as you all seem like a terrific and generous community. What a great group! I have absolutely ZERO experience with tanks but I've wanted them for years so I've finally decided to take the plunge...
I'm off this weekend to buy my first tank... preferably a 30g if I can afford it after all the extra gear. I am well aware of my limitations as I've never done this before, so I think it'd be really wise to start with the process of doing a full 6 week fishless (planted) cycle, just so I have a good foundation as to the chemistry of the process. I'm really thorough and don't mind being patient.... can I assume you all concur this is the best option for a newbie?
The focus of the tank I'm looking to build are bridgesii snails, about 7 or 8, in a planted tank. I am absolutely in LOVE with them!!! I've fantasized about them for years! They're fairly forgiving as far as temp and Oz levels, but I'd love to add a few fish later (so long as they're not predatory or they'll eat my snails' antennae), but I'm not sure yet what sort of fish I'd like.
I have 2 immediate questions although there'll be many more later....
#1... The Tank... Is it reasonable to expect good quality in an acrylic tank or do I really need to invest in glass? I'd prefer glass, but I'm aware of its weight, of course. I'm not buying a stand.... I have a terrific table that's been holding a 200lb TV most of its life so I'm pretty sure it can hold a tank.... 
#2... Sales pitch... I know I need a tank, a filter (peferably a 55g filter on a 30g tank), a heater, and test strips for ammonia ,etc...... is there anything else? What DON'T I need? How can I keep from being financially gouged by the store people when I walk in and confess that I'm new??
Thanks so much if anyone can help....... with anything....


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## dl88dl

Ella said:


> Hi everyone.... I found this site a few days ago and have been reading voraciously, and decided to join as you all seem like a terrific and generous community. What a great group! I have absolutely ZERO experience with tanks but I've wanted them for years so I've finally decided to take the plunge...
> I'm off this weekend to buy my first tank... preferably a 30g if I can afford it after all the extra gear. I am well aware of my limitations as I've never done this before, so I think it'd be really wise to start with the process of doing a full 6 week fishless (planted) cycle, just so I have a good foundation as to the chemistry of the process. I'm really thorough and don't mind being patient.... can I assume you all concur this is the best option for a newbie?
> The focus of the tank I'm looking to build are bridgesii snails, about 7 or 8, in a planted tank. I am absolutely in LOVE with them!!! I've fantasized about them for years! They're fairly forgiving as far as temp and Oz levels, but I'd love to add a few fish later (so long as they're not predatory or they'll eat my snails' antennae), but I'm not sure yet what sort of fish I'd like.
> I have 2 immediate questions although there'll be many more later....
> #1... The Tank... Is it reasonable to expect good quality in an acrylic tank or do I really need to invest in glass? I'd prefer glass, but I'm aware of its weight, of course. I'm not buying a stand.... I have a terrific table that's been holding a 200lb TV most of its life so I'm pretty sure it can hold a tank....
> #2... Sales pitch... I know I need a tank, a filter (peferably a 55g filter on a 30g tank), a heater, and test strips for ammonia ,etc...... is there anything else? What DON'T I need? How can I keep from being financially gouged by the store people when I walk in and confess that I'm new??
> Thanks so much if anyone can help....... with anything....


Welcome to GTAA, I am also new here 
If you are going to cycle with plants then you will need to have CO2 injection for your 30gal tank for the plants to survive. I am glad to hear that you are not using our fishy friends to do the recycle. For filters since you are going to have bridgesii then I would not recommend HOB or canister filters since the snails will get suck up in the intake strainer and if you don't catch it in time they will die. You can use 1 or 2 hydro sponge filter with air pump. There is a DIY section at GTAA...check it out for the DIY CO2 injection. The acrylic tank are lighter but much more money. Buy a glass one and save the money for more snails or fishy. You can also buy a used complete setup and will be even cheaper. Make sure you leave 1" to 2" of water below the canopy since these snail will go up there for some air or laid her clutch of eggs. Also, make sure the canopy has no open areas for these cute little snails to escape or you will find them all dry up on your floor. Good luck


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## jon021

you don't necessarily need co2 to keep plants in your tank, i have a couple planted tanks that only get weekly doses of ferts and nothing else and the plants are growing like crazy. Whats different about that specific tank is that i have worm casting as a substrate with a layer of gravel on top. The plants in that tank are all low light tolerant, java moss, java fern, anubias nana petitie, crypt wendtii. You could go with an hob filter on the 30 gal, but as mentioned, snails and small fish might get sucked in through the intake, so cover it with a prefilter or some sort of mesh and you won't have a problem.


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## dl88dl

jon021 said:


> you don't necessarily need co2 to keep plants in your tank, i have a couple planted tanks that only get weekly doses of ferts and nothing else and the plants are growing like crazy. Whats different about that specific tank is that i have worm casting as a substrate with a layer of gravel on top. The plants in that tank are all low light tolerant, java moss, java fern, anubias nana petitie, crypt wendtii. You could go with an hob filter on the 30 gal, but as mentioned, snails and small fish might get sucked in through the intake, so cover it with a prefilter or some sort of mesh and you won't have a problem.


So dosing and CO2 will work the same?


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## jon021

dl88dl said:


> I am not sure if you can dose with ferts in a new setup and have no issues to the plants?


I haven't had any issues with dosing in a new tank, most of my experience has been with fast growing plants so i don't know about more sensitive ones. I typically use the plants to help cycle the tank a bit faster, so i plant my tank heavily with sunset hygro, stargrass, water wisteria java moss, and asian ambuilia.


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## BeerBaron

Hey Ella

Great to see another member, the more the merrier. You'll find lots of great help/tips on the site, as I'm sure you already have.

So basically what you have already mentioned is what you need to get your setup started.Tank, filter, heater (You should probably grab a thermometer while you're at it) a set of lights or canopy. You may want to think about what type of plants you plan on putting inside and that way you can buy the appropriate lighting from the start.

Oh and you would most likely want to get some sort of substrate in there.

Some other optional equipment that isn't mandatory but sure makes fishkeeping a whole lot easier would be a good Dechlorinator (Vanquish, Prime etc) a siphon (Makes water changes a breeze), a timer for lights and a good old bucket is always handy!

There are 5 in 1 test strips available, I would say if you're goign to invest in testers go for the liquid ones. We here at Menagerie also do free water testing so feel free to pop buy at any time!

I'm sure I've missed a few things but it's been one heck of a loong day!Anyway hope I've helped in some way 



Ella said:


> Hi everyone.... I found this site a few days ago and have been reading voraciously, and decided to join as you all seem like a terrific and generous community. What a great group! I have absolutely ZERO experience with tanks but I've wanted them for years so I've finally decided to take the plunge...
> I'm off this weekend to buy my first tank... preferably a 30g if I can afford it after all the extra gear. I am well aware of my limitations as I've never done this before, so I think it'd be really wise to start with the process of doing a full 6 week fishless (planted) cycle, just so I have a good foundation as to the chemistry of the process. I'm really thorough and don't mind being patient.... can I assume you all concur this is the best option for a newbie?
> The focus of the tank I'm looking to build are bridgesii snails, about 7 or 8, in a planted tank. I am absolutely in LOVE with them!!! I've fantasized about them for years! They're fairly forgiving as far as temp and Oz levels, but I'd love to add a few fish later (so long as they're not predatory or they'll eat my snails' antennae), but I'm not sure yet what sort of fish I'd like.
> I have 2 immediate questions although there'll be many more later....
> #1... The Tank... Is it reasonable to expect good quality in an acrylic tank or do I really need to invest in glass? I'd prefer glass, but I'm aware of its weight, of course. I'm not buying a stand.... I have a terrific table that's been holding a 200lb TV most of its life so I'm pretty sure it can hold a tank....
> #2... Sales pitch... I know I need a tank, a filter (peferably a 55g filter on a 30g tank), a heater, and test strips for ammonia ,etc...... is there anything else? What DON'T I need? How can I keep from being financially gouged by the store people when I walk in and confess that I'm new??
> Thanks so much if anyone can help....... with anything....


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## dl88dl

jon021 said:


> I haven't had any issues with dosing in a new tank, most of my experience has been with fast growing plants so i don't know about more sensitive ones. I typically use the plants to help cycle the tank a bit faster, so i plant my tank heavily with sunset hygro, stargrass, water wisteria java moss, and asian ambuilia.


Thanks for the info


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## Octavian

If your going to buy a filter get an Aquaclear 70. Hands down the best and most cost efficient in terms of the long term maintenance of the filter. Just rinse the sponges and reuse... no need to buy new filter pads on a regular basis. Add filter floss if you need extra water polishing. If your worried about things getting sucked up the intake tube, just cut a X into a spare sponge and place it on the intake tube.


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## ryno1974

I agree with the timer for sure. Makes timing the light you give your plants much easier (never "forget" and go to bed with the light on). I found the nicest and easiest at wal mart (or Canadian Tire for those of you opposed to shopping there). It is an 8 outlet power bar, 4 timer controlled, 4 regular plugs. Lots of timer options, easy to use and only $20. Or, you can go CHEAP and get 2 for $5 @ Ikea. They only control one plug, but if all you have is one light to control then you would be fine with that one.

Planted tanks are awesome, just remember that once you start you will end up with your arm in there rearranging and "fixing" plants constantly. It becomes a bit of an obsession. A fun obsession, but an obsession none the less.

Good luck, post lots of pics as you go!


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## dl88dl

ryno1974 said:


> I found the nicest and easiest at wal mart (or Canadian Tire for those of you opposed to shopping there). It is an 8 outlet power bar, 4 timer controlled, 4 regular plugs. Lots of timer options, easy to use and only $20.
> 
> Sounds like the same one I pickup at Home Depot but they sell it for $15.


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## ryno1974

D'OH! Oh well, there's always next time.


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## carmenh

The Home Depot on Burloak was clearing these exact ones out a couple weeks ago...they were marked at $11 and scanned at $5...so I bought 7  Check your local Home Depot...

Sounds like the same one I pickup at Home Depot but they sell it for $15.[/QUOTE]

Addition: they weren't in the usual electrical section, they were on a clearout table...


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## dl88dl

carmenh said:


> The Home Depot on Burloak was clearing these exact ones out a couple weeks ago...they were marked at $11 and scanned at $5...so I bought 7  Check your local Home Depot...
> 
> Sounds like the same one I pickup at Home Depot but they sell it for $15.


Addition: they weren't in the usual electrical section, they were on a clearout table...[/QUOTE]

Wow, $5...I will check the one in Whitby...thanks


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## BettaBeats

My suggestion is a good liquid test kit. API sells a great kit for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and then you can buy the water hardness kit, etc.
You will be able to monitor water conditions and watch for fluctuations. 
This might not be a necessary thing when you first start out. I found I had OK readings with test strips, but the longer I had them I began getting weird results. I was trying to get cherry shrimp to breed and I needed to keep the parameters in a certain zone. This might be something to consider if you want to provide the best habitat for your apple snails.

I love the idea of snails. I've heard of them getting quite big!
Try and look for plants that can survive the snails feeding on them. People have had that problem when the snails aren't fed enough. Also, I would try and be careful with CO2 and snails - they have a tenancy to crawl out of the tank, some say searching for oxygen. I don't think it would be something you would need right away. 



otherwise, dive in an start educating yourself with a mix of personal research, help from wise people at your local fish store, and others on online forums.


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## AquariAM

Bridgesii won't eat 99% of plants. Only Canaliculata are a major issue that way and you rarely see them in the trade anymore, which is a shame because they have a great personality.

Apple snails will absorb a massive amount of calcium from the water, and having 8 in even a 60 gallon tank, I'd make sure to really keep on top of the calcium level in the water personally.

Food wise you can't beat tetramin bottomin, or bottom feeder tabs, or whatever they're calling them these days. 

















A lot of people say to put kalkwasser in the water or use other additives. Nothing works half as well as this stuff in my experience. It will deliver 100% perfect shells 100% of the time. The main ingredient is skim milk powder.

Make that your staple, at 50-60%, add a very high quality vegetable diet, if you can, get Dainichi veggie deluxe (www.dainichi.com) it's primary ingredient is kelp and the food also contains a calcium montmilliorite clay to aid digestion while delivering further natural calcium for the snail.
You should also feed some noori. You can buy a pack of sushihane for about $4. It'll last you a month or two for 8 snails. 
It's also good to add a frozen supplement, ideally mysis shrimp.

Something like

60% tetra bottom
40% dainichi
6% noori
4% frozen mysis shrimp

would be what I'd feed.

As far as keeping an eye on the co2 level, don't overdo it. Having a high level of carbonic acid in the water with these guys will not help shell development. Try to keep the co2 as low as you can to maintain reasonable plant growth. I wouldn't exceed 15ppm. Honestly, I would not do co2 injection in a snail tank period. I'd have two seperate tanks if I wanted to do that.

Do frequent water changes to keep the water parameters the same, remembering how much calcium they're sucking out of the water. Putting cuttlebone in a filter bag (beat it up some with a hammer, then bag it and put it in a filter) will help keep the calcium reasonable.

You might want to throw in some other snails for kicks also.









Zebra Nerites have been readily available for years now. They have a neat striped body. They're about a dollar or two. They lay unsightly white eggs on your glass though.

You can also get horned nerites









and red nerites









If you do apple snails and plants- make extra sure they're not canaliculata . Two 2" Canas inhaled a 20 gallon planted tank on me once. It should be impossible but they will consume their body weight in a day or two if they really want what's on offer.


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## bae

You don't need CO2 or fertilizer for a planted tank. Bridgesii snails are big eaters and big defecators so they may provide all the fertilizer you need. However, you do need light to grow plants. An inexpensive method is to go to Rona or Home Depot or wherever and buy a two tube 24" fluorescent and wire it up with a cord and plug. Get a glass shop to cut two or three pieces of glass for you from their scrap pile to make a top -- new glass is expensive, scrap pile glass is usually sold for the price of the cuts -- $2-3 per cut.

You can use inexpensive commodity fluorescent tubes, too. I like the look of cool white, while many prefer daylight, which is whiter or bluer compared to the warmer or yellower tones of cool white. N.B. the reason I recommend a 24" fixture instead of a 36" one is that the cheapest bulbs are those most in demand, 48" ones. Second is 24". Any other size is much more expensive and somewhat harder to find, as are the fixtures. 40watts has worked well for me on 36" tanks, with low to medium light plants.

As for feeding apple snails, they'll eat almost anything, and they generally don't harm live plants. So you can feed them things like zucchini, cooked frozen peas, spinach, etc. They'll grow faster with some extra protein, such as a bit of chopped frozen or canned seafood like shrimp or clams or fish. Just don't use anything oily or greasy. An inexpensive fish food plus vegetables will work well too. They do need some calcium to grow healthy shells, but that's easy to provide. I have mine in tanks with a sand substrate that's high in calcium, and I observe that they eat some sand and presumably get calcium out on the way through. You can also grate up some cuttlebone for them -- this is sold to give to pet birds, and one piece will last you years. 

Apple snails do fine at room temperature, although they grow more slowly under 20C, so you can put off buying a heater if you like.

Btw, If money is a problem, buy used. You can often get a complete set up for much less than the new price, but be careful since some people don't realize that like new cars, equipment and tanks drop dramatically in price when resold. A good place to find fair deals is pnaquaria.ca. 

Sometimes (garage sales) you can find old aquarium lights that have sockets for incandescent bulbs. These are a big win -- just put compact fluorescents in them!

Acrylic is very expensive compared to glass, and is rare to find in small tanks. Scratches are a big problem with acrylic, much less so with glass.

You might use some of your patience to wait for the garage sale season. You can often pick up tanks and equipment for peanuts. You can buy easy prolific plants from people here. You can get a few snails in the meantime and keep them in a smaller container, like a plastic bin. Change the water frequently, using dechlorinated tap water, and you'll be fine. Right now, due to lack of space, I've got a half dozen good size snails in a 3 gallon plastic box with some fry and plants. I change 3/4 of the water twice a week and everything is growing well. I've also kept them successfully in gallon pickle jars, which you can often get free from delis and cafeterias, if the pickle suppliers haven't all gone to plastic.

A planted tank doesn't really need cycling, as long as you don't stuff it with livestock all at once. Plants under adequate light will effectively compete with filter bacteria for ammonia, as well as providing a lot of surface area themselves for bacteria to colonize. All my tanks are planted, even ifonly with aquatic 'weeds', and I've never cycled them. The small ones don't have filters at all.

As for your TV stand, I'd be cautious. The surface should be very flat and evenly support the tank. Put a piece of 1/4 - 1/2" styrofoam under the tank to 'absorb' any irregularities. Anything that imparts a twisting motion to the tank can make it crack. Be very cautious about the stand getting wet --- particle board absorbs moisture and crumbles.

I hope this helps.


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## Ella

HOLY MOSES!!! Thank you so much everyone!
Let me read, take it all in, and then I'll respond to as much as I can.


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## Ella

Thanks so much to everyone for the advice and help.... I'll address the first posts first....



jon021 said:


> you don't necessarily need co2 to keep plants in your tank, i have a couple planted tanks that only get weekly doses of ferts and nothing else and the plants are growing like crazy. Whats different about that specific tank is that i have worm casting as a substrate with a layer of gravel on top...


I hadn't thought of co2 for plants.... duh! What was I thinking?? Does the worm casting give off a lot of co2? By ferts I assume you mean fertilizers?



BeerBaron said:


> ...So basically what you have already mentioned is what you need to get your setup started.Tank, filter, heater (You should probably grab a thermometerwhile you're at it) a set of lights or canopy. You may want to think about what type of plants you plan on putting inside and that way you can buy the appropriate lighting from the start...Oh and you would most likely want to get some sort of substrate in there...


I haven't thought about the type of plants at all...looks like I have a lot more research to do. I'm definitely open to suggestions. I wondering if there is anything that looks like clover that I can plant in a corner. I know I would like something taller and fuller in the middle, and maybe a floating plant as well, but I don't know what I'm looking for. For substrate I have tons of polished river pebbles and I figured I'd get some white sand too.... I want to keep everything looking natural so I'm trying to avoid plastic figures or that horrible clown-barf gravel.



Octavian said:


> If your going to buy a filter get an Aquaclear 70. Hands down the best and most cost efficient in terms of the long term maintenance of the filter. Just rinse the sponges and reuse... no need to buy new filter pads on a regular basis. Add filter floss if you need extra water polishing. If your worried about things getting sucked up the intake tube, just cut a X into a spare sponge and place it on the intake tube.


Thanks for the info... I'll look into it. I'm not sure what you mean by water polishing though.



ryno1974 said:


> I agree with the timer for sure. Makes timing the light you give your plants much easier (never "forget" and go to bed with the light on)...... go CHEAP and get 2 for $5 @ Ikea. ....... Planted tanks are awesome, just remember that once you start you will end up with your arm in there rearranging and "fixing" plants constantly. It becomes a bit of an obsession...


I never would have thought to shop at Ikea... good idea. I think I'm going to constantly have my arms in the tank anyways, playing with the snails. My sister used to have 2 giant koi and I used to have this compulsion to stick my hands in there and start petting them. (They didn't seem to mind.)



BettaBeats said:


> My suggestion is a good liquid test kit. API sells a great kit for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and then you can buy the water hardness kit, etc.You will be able to monitor water conditions and watch for fluctuations. ........I love the idea of snails. I've heard of them getting quite big! Try and look for plants that can survive the snails feeding on them. People have had that problem when the snails aren't fed enough...


I was thinking that's something I'd better make a good investment in, because I really don't know what I'm doing. The snails are fairly forgiving but I do plan to have a few fish in there too. Definitely a pleco or 2 to clean the tank (because the snails won't, believe it or not) and I'm not sure what else yet. I'll be getting bridgesii snails which don't tend to munch on the plants so long as they're well fed.... I'd love to get a canaliculata because they get as big as grapefruits but they're underwater lawnmowers, so I couldn't have any plants if I had one.

Ok.... this post is getting too long so I'll post this bit and then continue.... more to come....


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## BettaBeats

water polishing is clearing out the tiny tiny particles in the water with filter floss, or micron bag. The floss or bag trap the tiny particles that regular filter media do not. ie; right now I have added filter floss to my filter to try and clear up my cloudy water/sand dust.

as for clover plants, the Marsilea genus are essentially 'water clovers.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsilea


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## Ella

AquariAM said:


> Bridgesii won't eat 99% of plants. Only Canaliculata are a major issue that way and you rarely see them in the trade anymore, which is a shame because they have a great personality....
> ..... Food wise you can't beat tetramin bottomin, or bottom feeder tabs, or whatever they're calling them these days...A lot of people say to put kalkwasser in the water or use other additives. Nothing works half as well as this stuff in my experience. It will deliver 100% perfect shells 100% of the time. The main ingredient is skim milk powder. Make that your staple, at 50-60%, add a very high quality vegetable diet, if you can, get Dainichi veggie deluxe (www.dainichi.com) it's primary ingredient is kelp and the food also contains a calcium montmilliorite clay to aid digestion while delivering further natural calcium for the snail.You should also feed some noori. You can buy a pack of sushihane for about $4. It'll last you a month or two for 8 snails. It's also good to add a frozen supplement, ideally mysis shrimp. ...
> .... Do frequent water changes to keep the water parameters the same, remembering how much calcium they're sucking out of the water. Putting cuttlebone in a filter bag (beat it up some with a hammer, then bag it and put it in a filter) will help keep the calcium reasonable.
> ....... If you do apple snails and plants- make extra sure they're not canaliculata


I've been getting most of my info from www.applesnail.net so if you're ever looking for a canaliculata people are selling them on there all the time. I can't have one for this tank because of the plants but maybe for next time...
Thanks for the info about the food.... on the same site those people actually make their own snail snax; everything from pumpkin to whole eggs with the shell to shrimp and every veggie under the sun, ground up and dehydrated into cookies. Weird, although I may find myself doing it too! I'm wondering about your suggestion for nori though... wouldn't the salt content be too high for them? Great idea about the cuttlebone too... hadn't thought of that. Apparently if you put eggshells in the tank they'll go sit near them, so cuttlebone makes sense too.



bae said:


> You don't need CO2 or fertilizer for a planted tank. Bridgesii snails are big eaters and big defecators so they may provide all the fertilizer you need....
> .....You can use inexpensive commodity fluorescent tubes, too. I like the look of cool white, while many prefer daylight, which is whiter or bluer compared to the warmer or yellower tones of cool white. N.B. the reason I recommend a 24" fixture instead of a 36" one is that the cheapest bulbs are those most in demand, 48" ones. Second is 24". Any other size is much more expensive and somewhat harder to find, as are the fixtures. 40watts has worked well for me on 36" tanks, with low to medium light plants....
> ...Sometimes (garage sales) you can find old aquarium lights that have sockets for incandescent bulbs. These are a big win -- just put compact fluorescents in them!....You might use some of your patience to wait for the garage sale season. You can often pick up tanks and equipment for peanuts. You can buy easy prolific plants from people here......
> ....A planted tank doesn't really need cycling, as long as you don't stuff it with livestock all at once. Plants under adequate light will effectively compete with filter bacteria for ammonia, as well as providing a lot of surface area themselves for bacteria to colonize. All my tanks are planted, even ifonly with aquatic 'weeds', and I've never cycled them. The small ones don't have filters at all....


Thanks for all the terrific info about lighting.I'll definitely keep my eyes peeled but I don't have a lot of time to do garage sales, and I'm not so sure I trust buying used equipment; we'll see how expensive this starts getting... I might be forced to!!
I have to say though, it freaks me out that you don't cycle your tanks, but then what do I know?


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## Ella

Thanks, BettaBeats.


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## AquariAM

Ella said:


> I'm wondering about your suggestion for nori though... wouldn't the salt content be too high for them? Great idea about the cuttlebone too... hadn't thought of that. Apparently if you put eggshells in the tank they'll go sit near them, so cuttlebone makes sense too.
> :


I've fed it to applesnails (noori) and shrimp and currently my giant prawn eats it. I keep it well below 5% with freshwater stuff. Never had a problem. I'm not sure the salt content is really all that high- and in the small amounts involved It's never been a thing for me. I'm not sure the bridgesii will like it as much as a cana, as they are not too veggie inclined.

You might be able to train your snails to eat from your hand. My giant cana, Fuzzles, learned to come to the top when I tapped the tank trim. He'd make a hand with the end of his foot and I'd put food in it and he'd wrap around it and fall to the bottom to eat it.

Please get that Tetra food. You won't be disappointed. You'll get the perfect super thick lustrous bright yellow shell. Make sure you buy the snails as tiny as possible to make sure you put a good shell and growth rate on them from the get go.


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## bae

Ella said:


> I have to say though, it freaks me out that you don't cycle your tanks, but then what do I know?


After a few decades at this, one gets a feel for it. I've been keeping and breeding fish on and off for longer than the term or idea of cycling has been around.

As for nori, read the label carefully. The seasoned kind has soy sauce and other stuff in it and is quite salty. You want the kind that is just plain seaweed. I buy it at my local Korean grocery and eat it myself, too, as a low cal snack!

As a beginner, you can get really overwhelmed with info. There are a lot of different systems of running planted tanks, and some are high tech (high input in money and electricity and equipment and supplies) while others are low tech (low in all the above). You can't really mix and match between them. As a low tech type, I'd recommend that viewpoint, but there are many higher tech fans here that will recommend their systems. It can be very confusing. In general, light drives the system. With a lot of light, plants will grow fast and need fertilizers and CO2 and a lot of pruning. With low but adequate light, you can grow fewer species successfully, but you won't need CO2 and you may not need fertilizers.

Just take it slow, and don't try to take everybody's advice at once!


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## Ella

Thanks very much, both of you. Terrific advice!

This is just too adorable:


> My giant cana, Fuzzles, learned to come to the top when I tapped the tank trim. He'd make a hand with the end of his foot and I'd put food in it and he'd wrap around it and fall to the bottom to eat it.


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## Windowlicka

Ella said:


> I can't have one for this tank because of the plants but maybe for next time...


You may be a self-professed newbie, but you speak like a true MTS "victim" in the making!


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## AquariAM

* 
I have to say though, it freaks me out that you don't cycle your tanks, but then what do I know?  *

As Bae said, a heavily planted co2 injected well lit tank will eat all your ammonia. Filter bacteria is not really needed.


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## bae

AquariAM said:


> *
> I have to say though, it freaks me out that you don't cycle your tanks, but then what do I know?  *
> 
> As Bae said, a heavily planted co2 injected well lit tank will eat all your ammonia. Filter bacteria is not really needed.


I don't do CO2. A good handful of aquatic weeds in a moderately lit tank will eat all the ammonia too. I've had a friend report that two bunches of hornwort added to a 40 gallon mbuna tank with one 40watt tube reduced ammonia from 1ppm to zero in less than half an hour. Nitrogen is hard to get under natural conditions, so plants are adapted to grab it when they can get it. Also, there's a lot of surface area on a couple of bunches of hornwort for bacteria to colonize.


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## AquariAM

Anubias is the only aquatic plant I've ever met that I didn't melt. I don't know how I do it.

I'm fantastic with fish shrimp and snails.

Nothing green will survive my wrath.


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## Ella

Ok, so I'm off today to buy a tank, finally. I'm in the King/Dufferin area so I don't necessarily want to haul a tank all the way home from BA Scarborough on the ttc, but I will if I have to. Places like walmart or can tire don't seem to have tanks, and I don't want to go to a smaller pet store because the price markup will be outrageous. 

Is there anywhere closer to me where I could get one for a reasonable price?


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## AquariAM

Ella said:


> Ok, so I'm off today to buy a tank, finally. I'm in the King/Dufferin area so I don't necessarily want to haul a tank all the way home from BA Scarborough on the ttc, but I will if I have to. Places like walmart or can tire don't seem to have tanks, and I don't want to go to a smaller pet store because the price markup will be outrageous.
> 
> Is there anywhere closer to me where I could get one for a reasonable price?


BA's Yonge and Steeles. You'd have to take the subway to finch then the steeles bus.

Neither is particularly close. I've moved a 29gal and the stuff for it on the subway but I don't think you can move a tank and a stand like that. You'd need to take a cab home.


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## Tbird

Ella said:


> Ok, so I'm off today to buy a tank, finally. I'm in the King/Dufferin area so I don't necessarily want to haul a tank all the way home from BA Scarborough on the ttc, but I will if I have to. Places like walmart or can tire don't seem to have tanks, and I don't want to go to a smaller pet store because the price markup will be outrageous.
> 
> Is there anywhere closer to me where I could get one for a reasonable price?


Some Walmarts do have tanks but I don't know what quality they are. I know the Square one location had 29G tanks.

If you aren't dead set on getting one right away, check Kijiji. There are always a few good deals on tanks there. I've picked up a couple 30G for cheap and in good condition. If you don't get one, let me know, I might have one I could part with. I'll just keep looking for another one that I could use in the future.

Wil


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## bae

AquariAM said:


> Anubias is the only aquatic plant I've ever met that I didn't melt. I don't know how I do it.
> 
> I'm fantastic with fish shrimp and snails.
> 
> Nothing green will survive my wrath.


Since you aren't successful in growing plants yourself, why do you keep giving people all this detailed and authoritative-sounding advice about what they _ have to do_ to have a successful planted tank? It can only be hearsay, but you make it sound like you are an expert at it. If the advice you give doesn't work for you, why do you think it will help someone else, rather than lead them astray?


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## AquariAM

bae said:


> Since you aren't successful in growing plants yourself, why do you keep giving people all this detailed and authoritative-sounding advice about what they _ have to do_ to have a successful planted tank? It can only be hearsay, but you make it sound like you are an expert at it. If the advice you give doesn't work for you, why do you think it will help someone else, rather than lead them astray?


I can grow anubias java fern and mosses... Those are plants. Most other stuff doesn't go how I want it. Or melts.
Perhaps I am guilty of some heresay...


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## BettaBeats

The reason I think cycling is important is because you want to start a good bacteria culture in the filter. A properly cycled tank will produce nitrates from ammonia (fish, snail waste) which your plants will use. 

Snails, i assume, will give off a lot of waste considering how fast they can grow. with veggies as food, decaying plant matter, snail poop - cycling your tank is going to provide a buffer for your water chemistry.

EDIT: however, you can very easily cycle a tank in a week if you build up a small bioload and keep increasing it throughout the cycle. I believe I bought my tank a week ago? water params are in check.


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## AquariAM

BettaBeats said:


> The reason I think cycling is important is because you want to start a good bacteria culture in the filter. A properly cycled tank will produce nitrates from ammonia (fish, snail waste) which your plants will use.
> 
> Snails, i assume, will give off a lot of waste considering how fast they can grow. with veggies as food, decaying plant matter, snail poop - cycling your tank is going to provide a buffer for your water chemistry.
> 
> EDIT: however, you can very easily cycle a tank in a week if you build up a small bioload and keep increasing it throughout the cycle. I believe I bought my tank a week ago? water params are in check.


No offense, but this is gibberish.

"biofilters" do not provide a "buffer" to water quality. On the contrary, nitrification consumes kH.

A well planted tank ABSORBS ammonia nitrite and nitrates at a very high rate. Plants find ammonia particularly tasty and are very happy to suck it up quickly under the right conditions. It is not necessary to cycle a heavily planted co2 injected high light tank. Also, you can't cycle a tank in a week! Not from scratch! Impossible.

Plants dont just eat nitrate. Ammonia and ammonium are delicious as well.

I think you're worse than I am with plants... at least the stuff I say is researched hearsay .


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## BettaBeats

AquariAM said:


> No offense, but this is gibberish.
> 
> "biofilters" do not provide a "buffer" to water quality. On the contrary, nitrification consumes kH.
> 
> A well planted tank ABSORBS ammonia nitrite and nitrates at a very high rate. Plants find ammonia particularly tasty and are very happy to suck it up quickly under the right conditions. It is not necessary to cycle a heavily planted co2 injected high light tank. Also, you can't cycle a tank in a week! Not from scratch! Impossible.
> 
> Plants dont just eat nitrate. Ammonia and ammonium are delicious as well.
> 
> I think you're worse than I am with plants... at least the stuff I say is researched hearsay .


i can at least get mine to grow.
and I don't act like a jack4$$.

I'm pretty sure that getting the good bacteria to grow in the filter helps with the nitrogen cycle. nitriosomonas breaks down ammonia into nitrites. nitrobacter breaks down nitrites into nitrates. I'm fairly certain this is why they call it cycling the tank.

Having hearty plants grow is easy in most circumstances. that's why they sell the plants you're able to grow at petsmart - everyone can grow them.


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## AquariAM

BettaBeats said:


> i can at least get mine to grow.
> and I don't act like a jack4$$.


I disagree, you're saying stuff that isn't true.


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## BettaBeats

I actually found a good article that explains that plants prefer ammonium to nitrates. 


> "
> Nitrification enhanced by filters is essential for protecting fish from toxic ammonia in aquariums without plants. However, planted aquaria are a whole different ballgame. In fact, plants provide an enormously increased surface area within the aquarium for nitrifying bacteria. Planted areas (as opposed to unplanted areas) in natural habitats (rivers, lakes, etc) have been shown to provide an exponentially increased number of colonization sites for bacteria (11). You can be sure that every leaf and stem surface in an established aquarium is coated with a layer of nitrifying (and other) bacteria.
> 
> I have been surprised at how little biological filtration is actually required in my planted aquaria. When I gradually decreased biological filtration by removing the packing media from the canister filters, the fish continued to do well. Finally, years later I took the decisive step and removed the canister and outside filters altogether and just used cheap internal pumps to circulate the water. Fish never missed a beat; the planted tank itself is a filter!"


http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm


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## AquariAM

BettaBeats said:


> I actually found a good article that explains that plants prefer ammonium to nitrates.
> 
> http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm


So I'm right now?


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## BettaBeats

AquariAM said:


> So I'm right now?


yeah, i am trying to understand the process. I always had success just gradually increasing the bioload through the first week, fishfood, then a plant, then a few more, then by the time i was ready to add fish parameters were good.


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## AquaNeko

Largest I've seen IIRC (1 day ago at Wallys) was a 38gal (Markham & Steeles) tank kit. IIRC it was ~$168.99 ish and I think it is glass made.

Having moved a glass 20gal std. before I have to say the weight is easier to carry because of the size and more center of gravity when you carry it. If you're carrying something wider that is longer it'll always unbalance you because of the weight tipping at the end. Based of my experience carrying the 20gal around I would think you can carry the 20gal by yourself on the TTC while still being somewhat manuverable. I would however recommend you go into the gardening section of the store and buy a pair of gloves with grip. Make sure you try the gloves on and grip some of the metal shelves there then lift some cardboard boxes to see how the grip is on that before buying it with your aquarium.

You also have another option of hailing a taxi cab if you're close to home and get a larger aquarium that can be driven to your home. I'm not familiar with taxi rates as I've not been in one in a long time butI do know for a couple of blocks it's not as expensive as going from downtown to uptown.

Another pending your distance but totally do able is put a ad on craigslist asking for help moving an aquarium via bicycle trailer. I've seen many a trailers before with people carry an awesome (I was floored and amazed. I want one of those now) amount of gear and stuff on those. The cycling community is friendy. Those trailers I've seen are rated up to 100lbs load. Damn! Get or borrow a bike and ride along with the person carrying the tank for you. You get fit, stuff gets moved, and make a friend at the same time. Probably cost you 2 TTC tokens I would imagine which is probably cheaper then the taxi for their time.

Or another alternative is see if anyone here is in the downtown core with a car to help. I'm sure if you pay for petrol costs someone is willing to help with a small amount fee on top of the cost of petrol.



Tbird said:


> Some Walmarts do have tanks but I don't know what quality they are. I know the Square one location had 29G tanks.
> 
> If you aren't dead set on getting one right away, check Kijiji. There are always a few good deals on tanks there. I've picked up a couple 30G for cheap and in good condition. If you don't get one, let me know, I might have one I could part with. I'll just keep looking for another one that I could use in the future.
> 
> Wil


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## bae

BettaBeats said:


> yeah, i am trying to understand the process. I always had success just gradually increasing the bioload through the first week, fishfood, then a plant, then a few more, then by the time i was ready to add fish parameters were good.


I like your quote from aquabotanic. It says what I've been trying to, but much more clearly.

Next time you cycle a tank, try planting it all at once at the start. Plants can be considered as sort of 'negative bioload' as long as they are growing. Healthy planted tanks really only need filtration to circulate the water and mechanically screen out debris, as long as they aren't really heavily stocked.

I use plants instead of filters in all my small tanks (<10 gallons), and just sponges in most of the others, mostly for circulation. The plants don't have to be pretty. In fry tanks, which are heavily fed, I use weeds like najas, as well as java moss. The moss has a lot of surface area as well as a whole micro-ecology of tiny critters for the fry to eat.

Btw, some people just have to assert that they're always right, and just have to have the last word. It can be frustrating to converse with them, and especially frustrating when they are giving less knowledgable people misleading advice. Another characteristic is that they'll assume any description like the above is aimed at them and feel the need to argue about it! ;-)


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## Chris S

Might I chime in and advise strongly against not using a filter, planted or not planted, for your first tank.

I'm not arguing the point(s) bae makes, but an established filter will at the very least act as a buffer against any spikes in ammonia/nitrite.

Secondly, a heavily planted tank (stem plants covering 50% of the substrate or so) does not need to be cycled. Plant the plants, add the livestock. Just ensure there is enough light for the plants to photosynthesize.

Third, if you want to be extra careful and cycle your tank quickly, seed your filter media from someone else who has established media. Just squeeze the yuckies from their filter into yours - tada, cycled. Just make sure you add some livestock to keep the ball rolling.

You can also purchase a product called Seachem Stability (nothing else I have used works...). Follow the directions and it will cycle your tank. You can also use it in conjunction with plants and seeding from someone else as a safety measure.

There is no reason for it to take over a week, let alone six.

Hope this helps.


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## AquariAM

Chris S said:


> Might I chime in and advise strongly against not using a filter, planted or not planted, for your first tank.
> 
> I'm not arguing the point(s) bae makes, but an established filter will at the very least act as a buffer against any spikes in ammonia/nitrite.
> 
> Secondly, a heavily planted tank (stem plants covering 50% of the substrate or so) does not need to be cycled. Plant the plants, add the livestock. Just ensure there is enough light for the plants to photosynthesize.
> 
> Third, if you want to be extra careful and cycle your tank quickly, seed your filter media from someone else who has established media. Just squeeze the yuckies from their filter into yours - tada, cycled. Just make sure you add some livestock to keep the ball rolling.
> 
> You can also purchase a product called Seachem Stability (nothing else I have used works...). Follow the directions and it will cycle your tank. You can also use it in conjunction with plants and seeding from someone else as a safety measure.
> 
> There is no reason for it to take over a week, let alone six.
> 
> Hope this helps.


+1, especially on seachem stability. It's the only one that does what it says it does when you follow the directions.


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## bae

Chris S said:


> Might I chime in and advise strongly against not using a filter, planted or not planted, for your first tank.
> 
> I'm not arguing the point(s) bae makes, but an established filter will at the very least act as a buffer against any spikes in ammonia/nitrite.


I agree with Chris that the less experienced should use filters. It takes a few years until you get a real feel for what's going on in a tank. Running very small tanks with a relatively high bioload like my small fry tanks isn't something you can do successfully without experience.

Plants and the filter compete for nitrogen. With both, you're better assured of water quality even when you overfeed, or have a fish die in some invisible corner, common events for beginners, who won't realize there's a problem until it's more advanced. Also, plants are only really beneficial when they're growing. When they're dying back they add to bioload. This is another thing that a beginner may not spot early enough.

I was mostly trying to say that it's possible to work with minimal filtration -- not necessarily recommending it, especially to beginners. I should have been clearer about that in the Beginner's Circle forum! Thanks, Chris, for pointing this out. Beginners get enough confusing and apparently contradictory advice without me adding to it!


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## bae

If you have or can borrow a luggage cart, those folding things like a small dolly that people use to lug their suitcases around, you can carry an aquarium home on the TTC with it. I've hauled a 35 gallon tank home on one, although it wasn't fun. Use several bungee cords to hold it on, and try to balance it evenly -- on end, the side with the bottom is a lot heavier than the side with the top. A new tank will be in a box, which helps. For an old tank, I always cut up a box so any part of the tank that is going to get into contact with the luggage cart is padded by the cardboard.

Some stores will deliver, for a reasonable (or unreasonable) fee.


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## AquaNeko

bae said:


> If you have or can borrow a luggage cart, those folding things like a small dolly that people use to lug their suitcases around, you can carry an aquarium home on the TTC with it. I've hauled a 35 gallon tank home on one, although it wasn't fun. Use several bungee cords to hold it on, and try to balance it evenly -- on end, the side with the bottom is a lot heavier than the side with the top. A new tank will be in a box, which helps. For an old tank, I always cut up a box so any part of the tank that is going to get into contact with the luggage cart is padded by the cardboard.
> 
> Some stores will deliver, for a reasonable (or unreasonable) fee.


Nice... forgot to mention that last time. Tho I'd opt for the bike route if I was doing it myself.


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