# help setting a cheap tank.



## carbonlist (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey GTAA,

I've recently sold a lot of my filters as I'm going to school and I truly regret it. So...I'm planning on setting a new tank. It's going to be a 110-130 gallon tank with little maintenance. (community tank or amazon angels only tank).

Any suggestions on how to do this and how to make it less techy and more cost efficient?

These are some ideas:
low light plants
pool filter sand 
an extremely large foam filter (any ideas on how to do this?)
very few angels

thanks.


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

There is little that can't be DIYed except for the the pump and the heater. I haven't come up with an idea for those yet. Buying used is one of the best options. I see stuff on here for sale cheap or free all the time. I think choosing a 4' long tank that is not too high is important if you are going to grow plants. I have lot's of DIY ideas on my website.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

For a large foam filter, you can go with a Hamburg style (also called matten filter). Very efficient and low maintenance. You could put one in each corner so they would be less visible.
PFS is cheap, blasting sand even cheaper. If you want to grow plants I would go with #12 grit size rather than the #20 that is PFS.
To keep it cheap go for the 4' size tanks ( 48" x 24" x 24") as it is easier to light (even though I don't really like them.) For what you are planning it might work perfectly.


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## Roberacer1 (Aug 21, 2010)

Cheap trickle filter. 5 gallon pale good size diameter plastic hose with a valve and lots of pea sized gravel. Place the pale under the tank, Start the siphon and put the out flowing hose into the bottom of the pale and fill it 3/4 full of gravel. You then simply put the power head with the valve after it and the return hose back into the tank. The valve controls the flow so you can match the return to the feed. You never want the power to go out when your not watching it though. A far safer option is to have the pale flow back to the tank so you are siphoning the return line instead but people usually don't want to see the filter and want it under the tank. The pale and the hoses should be food grade so as to not poison the tanks inhabitants and the pale can be just about anything but remember it is all about surface area. This is all kinda ghetto for my tastes though. I like the used option except you need to buy new media as you have no idea what the previous owners have done with it. An example is people often bleach their filter media to clean it. Disaster folks!!! The porous nature of it absorbs the chlorine and you are forever poisoning your tank after that. You will never get all of the chlorine out of that.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Roberacer1 said:


> I like the used option except you need to buy new media as you have no idea what the previous owners have done with it. An example is people often bleach their filter media to clean it. Disaster folks!!! The porous nature of it absorbs the chlorine and you are forever poisoning your tank after that. You will never get all of the chlorine out of that.


This is so incorrect it is bordering on absurd. Bleach is not very persistent. It is a powerful oxidizing agent, and will "burn" organic material off all hard media. It is hard on sponges, but a very dilute solution can be used on them also. When bleach dries, it is no longer bleach. 
I bleach everything that goes into a tank; substrate, rocks, filter, and the tank itself. It will not poison the tank, and definitely not forever.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

agreed with Bill 100% on the bleach. It is by its very nature a very unstable chemical and it certainly does not leach out of treated substrate poisoning anything at a later date. As Bill said, once it is dried there is no longer any chlorine present. 

The matten filter is a great idea and they can be very effectively powered by an air pump. I've done lots of experiments on using CPVC pipes to build air powered water pumps and it is truly impressive how much water can be moved with air for a few dollars worth of materials.

I have also built very large sponge filters using blocks of pond foam. I currently have a 55 gallon with two large (18" tall x 6" x 6") foam filters and after running it for 5 years or so I am down to pulling & rinsing them once every 3 or 4 months. They are exceptionally effective.


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## Roberacer1 (Aug 21, 2010)

Ok. I have seen a semi valid discussion as to why one should use untreated tap water in partial water changes. Semi valid due to the fact that the chemicals used to neutralize chlorine (water conditioner) aren't quite inert either. I should further qualify this that no-one in the discussion felt that the Chlorine often Florine actually is completely ineffectual to their systems. I should also mention these are folks in the know and were known and well respected for their level of actual knowledge. Industry pros. It was generally agreed that a system that was functioning well would not be affected terribly by the chlorine that comes in our "DRINKING" water in a NO MORE THAN 25% WATER CHANGE. Wait what did I just actually say here? Let me reiterate. If... it were only chlorine in the minute amount that is used to "make our drinking water safe" (that is so little it is frightening BTW) in a relatively small percentage of the tank water a properly functioning aquarium system should be able to recover nicely without incident. We are talking about practically dumping "Sodium Hypochlorite" (AKA bleach) directly into the water here. You will note the name here too. It is not chlorine. It is in fact a derivative thereof and who knows what that will do. For arguments sake though we will call it the more basic form known as Chlorine. I assume none of us are chemists here so we need to deal with as basic chemistry as possible so we actually have a clue as to what is happening otherwise we don't know S%$#. This particular discussion went on to point out a few things and if I could find it I would add the link but I can't. 1. yes, chlorine does dissipate in water over time. It should be mentioned that it does not dissipate fast enough to keep the nitrifying bacteria alive in a tank if the concentration is high enough. For those just cluing in they add chlorine to our water in order to kill bacteria. I should also mention that it was generally felt that a 50% water change would be dangerous and generally be enough to cause at least significant fatalities in a colony of nitrifying bacteria in an aquarium setting. 2. that it can soak into porous substances and stay there, leaching out and mixing over time. I would guess this would be if it doesn't completely dry out. Completely evaporating the chlorine was never discussed. Things like driftwood and some filter media would be like that. 3. And this is the important one. When mixed with ammonia as would happen in a filter particularly it creates a different compound, chloramine which does not dissipate nor does it become inert in any real amount of time without chemical treatment. Chloramine is extremely toxic to almost all known lifeforms and over time in said application (partial water changes) would increase in concentration due to repetition of the same process that caused it in the first place. For us lay folks this is similar to the chemical that you get when you put Mr. Clean in a bucket of water and add Javex to it to clean your house. I'm told that nothing cleans as well as that does. You will note that they teach kids in grade school not to do this as they can gas themselves to death.
Get this...!!! What these guys were talking about was from the concentration of chlorine used in tap water not a jug of bleach folks. 
In the end they all felt that decreasing the amount of chlorine neutralizer usage overall was probably a good thing but it could not be eliminated entirely unless one were to use reverse osmosis or distill the water in which case you run a different set of risks. (Both of those methodologies remove trace elements and nutrients necessary to sustain life) Leaving buckets full of tap water sitting out for a few days was probably overall the best solution but still water conditioner was needed to be added at some water change intervals to deal with compounds that build up over time. Look for one that deals with as many as possible.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Actually, some of us here *are* chemists. 

Most municipalities, including Toronto, add chloramine rather than chlorine or bleach to the water supply because it persists longer in the supply pipes. The amount a municipality adds is enough to kill water-borne human disease organisms, not enough to sterilize the water. This can be fairly high for some municipalities, but Lake Ontario is pretty clean and the rate of chloraminization for Toronto is about 1 ppm.

Chloramine won't dissipate if the water is allowed to stand around in buckets, unlike chlorine, which used to be the standard treatment method. This persistence is one reason it is usually used instead of chlorine these days.

The way chlorine and chloramine and bleach work is by reacting with organic materials and oxidizing them. If the organic material is a living organism, such as bacteria, this may kill them, depending on the amount of damage. But all kinds of organic materials will react, and afterwards, the chlorine compound is no more -- it's spent, or used up.

Tap water won't kill all or most of your filter bacteria. Your filter is full of all kinds of organic grunge that the chloramine can react with. You can sterilize things pretty well with 10% bleach, or 5% bleach if you soak them longer, but not with tap water. Indeed, the fish pathogen that causes velvet disease survives municipal water treatment.

One problem with chloramine is that it releases ammonia as it breaks down. If you have a functioning filter or live plants, the ammonia will be rapidly consumed. Most water conditioners bind the ammonia, making it non-toxic. I have plants in all my tanks, and use only sodium thiosulfate as a dechlorinator, and sometimes not even that.

If you want to experiment, you can buy a chlorine test kit and see for yourself.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

Roberacer1 said:


> ....


I read a few lines of your post and I have a few questions?

1, why are you completely thread jacking someones elses thread? Start your own thread if you want to discuss something completely off topic to the discussion at hand.

2, punctuation .... or at the very least the occasional break for a quasi paragraph would make your messages much more readable.

3, I skimmed down and saw your question regarding the qualifications of the people that contradicted you and whether we are chemists.

Actually yes, sort of. I spent two years in the Environmental Chemical Engineering program in college. I earned my way though college by working at a pool/spa company where i spent all day giving advice on water quality and the proper use of chlorine. I have also been keeping fish for 30 plus years and own an aquarium shop.

BillD is a sharp guy and although I don't know his background he was very active on another forum I frequented. He is generally a very thoughtful and helpful participant who, in my experience, never gives answers without actually knowing what he is talking about. That makes him a very rare and valuable asset on your average aquarium forum.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Lots of folks here are pretty qualified to answer questions 



Roberacer1 said:


> Cheap trickle filter. 5 gallon pale good size diameter plastic hose with a valve and lots of pea sized gravel. Place the pale under the tank, Start the siphon and put the out flowing hose into the bottom of the pale and fill it 3/4 full of gravel.....You never want the power to go out when your not watching it though.


Well besides the choramine/chlorine debate, this is very foolish also - it's much safer to have a gravity-fed overflow from the tank to a sump below with the proper capacity to take any overflow from the display tank.

If you have the space below the tank for it, I'd look into a sump system - it can be set up for pretty cheap also.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Some interesting points being raised here. As a pont of onterest, Whitby uses sodium hypochlorite for water treatment (actually it is the Region of Durham). The water coming from my tap runs around 4ppm chlorine. As a comparison, my swimming pool is around 1 to 1.5ppm. I believe that since the Walkerton incident, Durham has increased the chlorine level, as years ago when I tested, it was only around 2ppm. 
A year or two ago, I took a quantity of aquarium water and added an equal amount of tap water (4ppm), and tested for chlorine. The result was .75ppm, and 15 minutes later there was no measurable chlorine. The chlorine did not gas out, it burned itself up reacting with the organics in the tank water. I used to do 50% water changes without adding dechlor. When I added a carbon filter to my cold water line it used to be able to remove all the chlorine. Now, I still get a measurable amount of chlorine. So, I use home made dechlor, made with sodium thiosulphate. $4 worth does 20,000 gallons. the problem with leaving the chlorine in is less that it will harm the fish, but it does react to produce some really nasty compounds.
To wildexpressions, thanks for the kind words. I wish I knew more.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I use home made dechlor, made with sodium thiosulphate. $4 worth does 20,000 gallons.

May I ask how you make it and were you would acquire sodium thiosulphate ?

Thanks


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

there are other advantages to using prepared declorinators though that more then offset the small additional cost.

Both Prime and Amquel bind ammonia. I commonly, like many stores and wholesalers, add a few drops of Amquel into freshly opened bags of fish prior to starting the acclimation process for both salt and fresh water shipments. Both Prime and Amquel are very inexpensive if used as directed which in my experience few do. Most seem to overdose when using them hence driving the cost way up.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

TBemba said:


> I use home made dechlor, made with sodium thiosulphate. $4 worth does 20,000 gallons.
> 
> May I ask how you make it and were you would acquire sodium thiosulphate ?
> 
> Thanks


I bought the Sodium thiosulphate from a hobbyiest/breeder who had it premeasured for adding to a 2 litre bottle of water. I bought 5 packs for $20, and at this years DRAS auction, he gave me another bag. It can be bought in bulk very cheaply, and there are sources in the Toronto area.
The solution is added at the rate of 1 drop per gallon. There are others on here who may be able to direct you to local sources.


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## Roberacer1 (Aug 21, 2010)

Does Sodium Thiosulphate deal with ammonia and chloramine as well. I personally didn't know that they used chloramine here in Toronto. I moved over to Prime a long time ago just because it dealt with more. At least that is what is says on the bottle. As an end user I have no idea what is in it. The water here just smells different and even that seems to change by the day I noticed.
I'm guess we should assume that the different "Purifying Agents" (chlorine, chloramine etc) react differently from each other? When these chemicals react with the organics in the tank 1. what kinds of compounds do they create? 2. for the most part do we assume they do not dissipate? 3. other than water changes and the use of activated carbon is there any other way to control their concentrations in the water? 4. When we use "nuetralizers" (prime, dechlorinator etc) it is my understanding that they don't remove the chemical from the water. I have read that they just change it to what is said to be an inert chemical. Is it really? Chlorine in the concentrations that they use in our tap water is considered to be inert by some. Still others argue that although it is not proven there is sufficient evidence that the long term effects on humans is not as non-destructive as first thought and we don't live in it.


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## Roberacer1 (Aug 21, 2010)

"Well besides the choramine/chlorine debate, this is very foolish also - it's much safer to have a gravity-fed overflow from the tank to a sump below with the proper capacity to take any overflow from the display tank."
1st part, it is an opinion thing and I agree the whole debate is way over the top hence my silence later on.
2nd, How would you have the siphon stop so as not to drain the tank into the sump (which would in turn overflow onto the floor) in the case of a power outage?


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

Roberacer1 said:


> 2nd, How would you have the siphon stop so as not to drain the tank into the sump (which would in turn overflow onto the floor) in the case of a power outage?


I have two racks of tanks where the top rack drains into the rack below it which drains into the rack below it and then is pumped back to the top tank. It is all done with siphon overflows becasue the tanks are made of tempered glass. It can be designed so it will not over flow and it will start back up on its own of the power goes out.

I will post some pictures later but essentially the tank side of the siphon is inside a surface skimming attachment so if the pump stopped the siphon stops when the surface of the water drops to the bottom of the opening of the surface skimmer. All my other racks are drilled and it is a far easier way of doing it.

As to the chlorine vs chloramine even if you municipality uses chlorine as their primary disinfectant that does not mean they do not occasionally flush chloramine though the system either to handle emergencies or as part of a maintenance program.

Chlorine is a common substance but it in the wild it is always found in a compound as it is too reactive to survive on its own. Your table salt likely contains chlorine for example and it is used in 1000's of products from PVC (the C is for chloride) to lots of food additives, many many medicinal products including many herbal products, many plastics ... its a huge list.

In your aquarium the final products produced after it has reacted with something is acids and so it does have a very small effect on ph. Incidentally UV light from most any source is enough to make chlorine destabilize.

I am a fan of products like Prime and they are very inexpensive if used correctly.... oops, I'm late to open the shop...talk to you later


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## Roberacer1 (Aug 21, 2010)

wildexpressions said:


> I have two racks of tanks where the top rack drains into the rack below it which drains into the rack below it and then is pumped back to the top tank. It is all done with siphon overflows becasue the tanks are made of tempered glass. It can be designed so it will not over flow and it will start back up on its own of the power goes out./QUOTE]
> 
> Ya, ya. AKA a reef tank of one sort or another. If one doesn't have that in their tank already though it isn't impossible or even stupidly difficult to do but most people aren't inclined to cut holes in their tanks. I personally feel that a filter is not a particularly pleasing site so I would rather it be under the tank as mine are. That said as a DIY on the cheap and easy the opposite format of power feed up/ gravity feed down (filter elevated) solves the power failure concern as well as being dirt cheap. Actually talking about the visual. What if it were a planter instead of a bucket. House plants would grow like stink in that. lol. A lill light and your in like Flinn. Presto... your on your way to some great tomato soup thanks to our little aquatic friends.


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