# 1st Test Results of 150 Gallon



## NVES

Hello all,

So I just got my API master test kit (ordered from JL Aquatics), and I just did my first test and need some advice.

The tank has been setup and running for a week now, I 'swished' the sponge filter from my daughter's 10 gallon (already cycled), and I have 2 pcs of driftwood in there which is showing some signs of the white fuzz. 

So here are the test results:
PH - 7.6
Ammonia 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Does this mean that the tank is just starting the cylce? Or that it's already well on it's way?

I haven't added any plants, fish, or ammonia to the tank. I was planning on adding plants in the next week or two (whenever I can find the ones I want).

Should I be doing anything or just be patient?

Thanks for your help.

Take care,
Aaron


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## trailblazer295

You can add plants whenever you want, you might want to add ammonia in some form. Your cycle is still starting ideally you want 0-0-10.


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## AquariAM

The only ammonia you have right now is from the breakdown of dead nitrifying bacteria that had nothing to eat. You need to put something in there. You could just vaccuum lots of poo from another tank and dump it in, and repeat once a week until it cycles. That'll work.


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## NVES

Since my last post / tests, I've added some pure ammonia (roughly 20ml) that I got from Harold at Menegrie, and I've swished the sponge from my other tank again.

So here are the test results from last night - Ammonia 2.0 ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0. 

Should I be dunking/swishing the sponge from my daughter's tank every couple of days or just once and now just be patient?
Should I be adding more ammonia, or perhaps a couple of fish to speed the process up a little?

Thanks!
Aaron


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## AquariAM

i dont think you're understanding the concept here. You have to add the same amount of ammonia ever day for 30 days. That's it.


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## NVES

Ok I understand the concept, I just don't like having chemicals around my house, so I'm trying to avoid using ammonia.

Time to find a source for ammonia - what is the recommended dosage?

Thanks,
Aaron


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## Zebrapl3co

Wuh? wouldn't adding ammonia completely defeat the purpose of seeding a fish tank?
From the reading of your tank. It looks like you never got off square one in the first place. The reason, I suspect may be because going from a 10G to a 150G is too big a gap for the bacteria culture to multiply.
Most likely, even if you some how manage to dump all the bacteria in the 10G to the 150G, it will still be insufficient to cycle the 150G because it's just too big. You may need to go after the filter instead of just swoshing it around in the tank.
I guess you can leave the ammonia in there. But instead of swoshing the old media in the new tank. Pick a small bucket of water from the new tank and swosh/squeez as much gumps from the 10G media as you can in the bucket. Stop your new filter and pour those "dirty" water into your new filter. Let it sit for 15 minutes before powering it back on.
This should jump start your cycle. Let it run for a few days and take a reading every day. Don't add anymore ammonia. You should eventually see 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some levels of nitrate. When that happens, it's a clear indication that your have a cycle going (eventhough it's probably a very small population. Make a big water change 20% - 40%. Then you can add fish very slowly. Like a 2 or 3 fish, stop for 2 weeks, then add a few more. All the while, you should be starting your regular water change regiment (like 20% water change every week). Avoid adding a 6" fish as that will surely boom your sensitive and fragile bacteria colony.
The bottom line is, if you don't see Nitrate, then your tank is not cycled.
Also, I would probably not put any plants in there because if it absorb all the nitrate in the tank, you won't be able to tell when your bacteria reached the end of the cycle.

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## TBemba

Grab a dozen or two dozen feeder goldfish and throw them in. Feed them and in a week you should be able to start adding fish that you want.

good luck


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## AquariAM

TBemba said:


> Grab a dozen or two dozen feeder goldfish and throw them in. Feed them and in a week you should be able to start adding fish that you want.
> 
> good luck


DONT do that you're likely going to introduce disease. Feeder goldfish are poorly raised. minimum input maximum profit.

Just get ammonia. Get it from canadian tire. Add enough to your tank to get a good reading- 3 or so PPM. Up to 5 if you wish to heavily stock the tank right away. Remember how much that was (ie, 1/2 capful) and add that amount every day for about 30 days. Your tank is cycled.

Alternately, you could get a significant amount of seeded filter media (Significant-- you have a big tank. You can't just get one aquaclear sponge off someone. You'll need a few) and then add a small number of fish, and gradually increase that number over the next month or two.

If you go the ammonia method, the idea is you stay fish free for a month, then after a month you give it a day make sure you get 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and X amount of nitrate, and add all the fish you're going to have because you've been adding such a significant amount of ammonia every day that you can now support a large bioload right away.

Those are the two options that represent the least risk to you.


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## TBemba

AquariAM said:


> DONT do that you're likely going to introduce disease. Feeder goldfish are poorly raised. minimum input maximum profit.


Yep a cheap way to cycle a tank IMO  Don't worry about disease people feed these fish to their other fish every day of the week. Plus goldfish supply a huge load of waste and will quickly cycle the tank. I have done this in the past with a 125 gallon tank.



AquariAM said:


> Alternately, you could get a significant amount of seeded filter media (Significant-- you have a big tank. You can't just get one aquaclear sponge off someone. You'll need a few) and then add a small number of fish, and gradually increase that number over the next month or two.


Someone elses filter media  talk about looking for disease you are taking someone else's tank issues and adding them to your own. Also how do you think the bacteria will survive with fresh water flowing into the canister? I often wonder how people think that if they put fish in a new tank they will die but if they put a old filter on a new tank it won't hurt the bacteria?

Goldfish are hardy and cheap and then at least you have something to watch


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## Zebrapl3co

TBemba said:


> Grab a dozen or two dozen feeder goldfish and throw them in. Feed them and in a week you should be able to start adding fish that you want.
> 
> good luck


I have to say that your methods of cruelty to fish are quickly growing outdated.
That's why so many people are choosing to go the other routes, even if it takes a little bit of time and money. There is no need to be cruel to fish.



AquariAM said:


> ...If you go the ammonia method, the idea is you stay fish free for a month, then after a month you give it a day make sure you get 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and X amount of nitrate, and add all the fish you're going to have because you've been adding such a significant amount of ammonia every day that you can now support a large bioload right away.
> 
> Those are the two options that represent the least risk to you.


Ah, I see what you're getting. That would work too.

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## TBemba

Zebrapl3co said:


> I have to say that your methods of cruelty to fish are quickly growing outdated.
> That's why so many people are choosing to go the other routes, even if it takes a little bit of time and money. There is no need to be cruel to fish.


If you have used Prime or some other water conditioner and waited a week lets say and have the temp stable then I can't see the issue.

Fish stores are selling them as feeders? I think throwing them in with your precious Oscar so you can get some cheap thrill of a fish eating another fish is cruel. Also seems that alot of people on this forum are killing fish at an alarming rate. Either that or they have 20 fish tanks.

when I did this 15 years ago I lost maybe 3 fish of the dozen fish.

I would be interested in how the ammonia method works other than in theory.


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## Zebrapl3co

TBemba said:


> If you have used Prime or some other water conditioner and waited a week lets say and have the temp stable then I can't see the issue.
> 
> Fish stores are selling them as feeders? I think throwing them in with your precious Oscar so you can get some cheap thrill of a fish eating another fish is cruel. Also seems that alot of people on this forum are killing fish at an alarming rate. Either that or they have 20 fish tanks.
> 
> when I did this 15 years ago I lost maybe 3 fish of the dozen fish.
> 
> I would be interested in how the ammonia method works other than in theory.


Eating to subsist is not cruelty. Check the dictionary. It's knowing that you will cause needless suffering is.
Simple test. Pick up a cup of said water and continuously drip them into your own eyes and see what it feels like. Now imagine a little fish that would feel the same pain 3 or 4 times more for 24 hours.

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## TBemba

Zebrapl3co said:


> Eating to subsist is not cruelty. Check the dictionary. It's knowing that you will cause needless suffering is.
> Simple test. Pick up a cup of said water and continuously drip them into your own eyes and see what it feels like. Now imagine a little fish that would feel the same pain 3 or 4 times more for 24 hours.


I have seen this eye quote of yours before and it is stupid.

I do the tap water dripping into my eyes every time I have a shower. I even swim in chlorinated pools with my eyes open. irritating yes lethal no.

What happens to the fish is that the chloramines bond with the iron in their blood and this starves them of oxygen and the fish die from suffocation.

what does happen is the chloramines in drinking water are an agent to prevent water pathogens from being carried in the water supply and preventing a Walkerton scenario. Products like "Prime" break up chloramines and make ammonia and chlorine in the water. Heating your water to 82 84 degrees also speeds up the process of neutralizing the water. Also with the addition of aeration the chlorine will dissipate from the water. but you still need to jump start the biological element and this can be done by adding a piece of organic matter to your tank like a piece of shrimp or adding some feeder fish or anything. Cruel ? well the fish industry is the cruelest pet industry out there today. If any other pet was treated like fish there would be outrage. Have you ever seen other animals dead in a pet store to the extent of fish? have you ever seen any other animal being bought in quantities as that of fish?

You should be able to keep any fish healthy without having to resort to feeding live fish to your tank. When you feed live fish to other fish you have the potential of killing 2 fish instead of one. Plus feeders do not die so easily they are some times not killed right away and have to live in fear of the predator for weeks some times months, or are injured and die a painful death and have to be scooped out of the tank. Not to mention the effect it has on the water quality of the tank. One dead fish in a huge tank can cause the entire tank to crash if not found and wipe out all the fish in the tank.

I Apologize NVES (Aaron) for having hijacked this thread. But I feel that some of this may help with your decision on how to proceed. I only know what works for me with a large tank and not having any other tanks to seed the new tank with.

Tim


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## Orochi

NVES, This page has several methods to help you cycle your tank

http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm


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## AquariAM

TBemba said:


> If you have used Prime or some other water conditioner and waited a week lets say and have the temp stable then I can't see the issue.
> 
> Fish stores are selling them as feeders? I think throwing them in with your precious Oscar so you can get some cheap thrill of a fish eating another fish is cruel. Also seems that alot of people on this forum are killing fish at an alarming rate. Either that or they have 20 fish tanks.
> 
> when I did this 15 years ago I lost maybe 3 fish of the dozen fish.
> 
> I would be interested in how the ammonia method works other than in theory.


Dude you're adding fish to produce ammonia. Said ammonia burns their gills weakens them and makes them susceptible to disease. By using straight ammonia you avoid having fish in the tank during the danger period. Pathogens developed by weaker fish used for cycling are likely to transfer to fish you add later even if you remove the cycling fish. There's nothing to understand. Until the tank is cycled don't add fish.


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## NVES

Hey guys,

Thanks for the links and the banter back and forth - no worries about hijacking my thread, it's good to hear both sides of a discussion.

At lunch today I went out and purchased some ammonia and I'll do another test tonight before I add some ammonia. I'll find the magic amount and keep adding it daily until the cycle is complete. 

I was on the fence about whether or not to add fish, but I figure I'll give the ammonia a shot first - plus at only $3 a bottle it's cheaper than buying a dozen fish that may or may not live.

Stay tuned for a tank log - whenever I find the time that is.

Take care,
Aaron


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## AquariAM

as long as it's just liquid ammonia / ammonia and water it'll work great.


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## AquariAM

I like that I'm not the only hot head. I don't stand out.

We can agree that keeping fish in ammonia and nitrite is less good for them than not keeping them in those conditions.

Given that, the choice to cycle with or without fish is up to the end user-- and the results will be that person's to reap as well. 

I would personally caution against fish-in cycling, mainly because you could just as easily get cycled media from 3 people and have enough to kickstart a 150G and have it over with, or use liquid ammonia. Alternatives- better alternatives, to fish-in cycling exist. JM2C, IMO, etc etc


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## NVES

Rather than start a new thread asking for advice on my latest test results - I'll risk continuing with this thread.

So I've been doing daily test results and here is a summary:
Date - ammonia; nitrite; nitrate

May 13 - 1.0-1.5 ppm; 0 ppm; no test
May 14 - 1.5-2.0 ppm; 0 ppm; no test
May 15 - 4.0 ppm; no test; no test
May 16 - 4.0 ppm; 4 ppm; 0 ppm
May 17 - 4.0 ppm; 4 ppm; no test
May 18 - 0 ppm; 5 ppm; 10-20 ppm
May 19 - 0 ppm; 5 ppm; 5-10 ppm
May 20(am) - 0 ppm; 5 ppm; no test

I haven't added ammonia since May 16th, as I'm waiting for the nitrites to decrease first. I did a 25% water change last night and I was expecting a drop in nitrites this morning, but to no avail. I worry that I'm in a 'stalled cycle'. 

I'm sure that my variances in nitrates from the 18th to the 19th is a result of test inaccuracies - I've heard that the nitrate test can show such variances.

The plants in the tank have lost several stems/leaves, but now all show signs of fresh bright green growth. Last night I cut off all the dead and are starting to grow nicely. I've been dosing with Al's Plant Supplement 2x a week and whenthat runs out I'm going to look at setting up an EI dosing schedule.
However I do have some algae growing - not sure if I should be adding some shrimp to help control it, or if I should be seriously looking at adding CO2.

I would greatly appreciate your advice and input on my next steps.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> I haven't added ammonia since May 16th, as I'm waiting for the nitrites to decrease first. I did a 25% water change last night and I was expecting a drop in nitrites this morning, but to no avail. I worry that I'm in a 'stalled cycle'.


Once again, you're missing the point.

Nitrite does not appear spontaneously. It is the waste product of the bacteria which eat ammonia. In turn, those bacteria produce waste in the form of nitrate. There is a balance between two forms of bacteria, the first of which feeds on the waste product of fish and decaying organic matter, the second which feeds on the waste product of the first.
You keep adding the _ammonia every day. Same amount._ 30 days. Make sure you do it. That's it. There's nothing else to do. You're looking for 0/0/not zero. You don't need to do anything else. Once you get 0/0/X stop adding ammonia and go get fish.


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## NVES

AquariAM - I'm not missing the point and I'd appreciate if you would stop saying so.

I have been adding ammonia, how else would I get a reading of 4.0 ppm?
As directed from this forum I keep adding ammonia to keep the readings in the 2-3 range and to stop adding when you get a nitrite spike and then continue adding once the nitrites decrease. Otherwise you risk going into a stalled cycle.

Which is why I posted here again, to make sure that I'm on the right path or if this is a stalled cycle and if so, what do I do.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## bob123

I must be missing out on something? I have a total of 24 tanks from 10 gal. to 90 gal. and never gone thru what you people are talking about, after one or two days of the water being in the aquarium to let the water reach the required tempature I add a few fish test the water daily once I start to get ammonia readings I'll do a 50% water change, do another test the following day and check each day for one week. After that I'll add more fish do tests, do water changes and never had a problem with loosing fish now I test two to three times a week and do water changes of at least 30% every week. Works for me every time.


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## AquariAM

bob123 said:


> I must be missing out on something? I have a total of 24 tanks from 10 gal. to 90 gal. and never gone thru what you people are talking about, after one or two days of the water being in the aquarium to let the water reach the required tempature I add a few fish test the water daily once I start to get ammonia readings I'll do a 50% water change, do another test the following day and check each day for one week. After that I'll add more fish do tests, do water changes and never had a problem with loosing fish now I test two to three times a week and do water changes of at least 30% every week. Works for me every time.


Ammonia burns gills among other things. You're damaging your fish. They might not die but they'll never be as nice as they could have been. Just because you don't know it exists doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> AquariAM - I'm not missing the point and I'd appreciate if you would stop saying so.
> 
> I have been adding ammonia, how else would I get a reading of 4.0 ppm?
> As directed from this forum I keep adding ammonia to keep the readings in the 2-3 range and to stop adding when you get a nitrite spike and then continue adding once the nitrites decrease. Otherwise you risk going into a stalled cycle.
> 
> Which is why I posted here again, to make sure that I'm on the right path or if this is a stalled cycle and if so, what do I do.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


Stalled cycle my left ventral fin
Add the ammonia daily. It doesn't stall it just takes a while for nitrite bacteria to establish based on load. Also, if you can't take something as gentle as 'you're missing the point' I don't know what to tell you. That's kinda sad IMO.


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## NVES

AquariAM said:


> Also, if you can't take something as gentle as 'you're missing the point' I don't know what to tell you. That's kinda sad IMO.


It's not that I can't 'take it', the point is that comment doesn't add any value. 
I'm new to this and I come on here to ask a question, hoping to directed down the right path and I get that comment.

All that I was looking for is confirmation that I'm doing the right thing, and if I'm not then what should I do.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> It's not that I can't 'take it', the point is that comment doesn't add any value.
> I'm new to this and I come on here to ask a question, hoping to directed down the right path and I get that comment.
> 
> All that I was looking for is confirmation that I'm doing the right thing, and if I'm not then what should I do.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


My initial comment of you missing the point was not intended to be rude in any way. Cycles do not 'stall'. What's happening is a very gradual increase in the bacteria population due to the very large volume of present ammonia-- takes a bit longer the more there is to eat. It has to make it over that 'spike' and a taller hill is a longer climb. It can appear that there is a stall but what you're really doing by stopping the addition of ammonia is reducing the required population size of the nitrite creating bacteria. Thus, you get your nitrite spike much more quickly. The end result, though, will be that you won't be able to add all your fish at once after your fishless cycle, because you will have a smaller than intended capacity.


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## Orochi

NVES, don't be so sensitive. AquariAM is a very helpful guy, he will help you with his vast knowledge but in the process he might unintentionally burn your gills .

On a side note, it is a lengthy process. Just be patient. Plus you have 150G, that takes time.

Good Luck


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## NVES

So now I'm really confused, I just did another test (before adding ammonia).

Here's the reading:
Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 5.0+ ppm; nitrate 40-50 ppm.

Why is the nitrite not decreasing? It's been at 4 or higher for almost a week - is that normal.

I know the process is lenthly and to have patience, and I'm trying to do the right thing so that I create a stable environment for my tank inhabitants.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> So now I'm really confused, I just did another test (before adding ammonia).
> 
> Here's the reading:
> Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 5.0+ ppm; nitrate 40-50 ppm.
> 
> Why is the nitrite not decreasing? It's been at 4 or higher for almost a week - is that normal.
> 
> I know the process is lenthly and to have patience, and I'm trying to do the right thing so that I create a stable environment for my tank inhabitants.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


Ammonia and nitrite 'spike'. The nitrite spike is still present because you are still stabilizing your population of nitrite>nitrate bacteria. There aren't quite enough yet. Although your test only goes to say five ppm what likely happened is it spiked (This is all hypothetical but to give you an idea) to like 10 and is now on its way back down and you cant see it moving because it is outside your test range. Just keep adding X small amount of ammonia daily. Once you have zero ammonia and zero nitrite do water changes to get your nitrate to 20 or less then get some fish and enjoy. Just avoid water changes over 50% with or without fish. With fish, ideally 30% or less unless you are aging the water. Bacteria are sensitive to chlorine as well.


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## NVES

Awesome thanks so much!!!


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## KhuliLoachFan

I find the hot-head guys on this board do mean well. But I do wish they would learn a bit more tact. I am not referring to ONE person here, but everybody who started down the path to flame wars. And I count three contributors in this thread to the growth of flameage. 

It doesn't help to have to learn about the cycling, and try not to get distracted by people flaming each other on here too.

Warren


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## BettaBeats

TBemba said:


> Yep a cheap way to cycle a tank IMO  Don't worry about disease people feed these fish to their other fish every day of the week. Plus goldfish supply a huge load of waste and will quickly cycle the tank. I have done this in the past with a 125 gallon tank.
> 
> Someone elses filter media  talk about looking for disease you are taking someone else's tank issues and adding them to your own. Also how do you think the bacteria will survive with fresh water flowing into the canister? I often wonder how people think that if they put fish in a new tank they will die but if they put a old filter on a new tank it won't hurt the bacteria?
> 
> Goldfish are hardy and cheap and then at least you have something to watch


Seeding tanks from another tank's filter media is pretty common practice. There is plenty of good bacteria to spare that will jump-start the new filter and speed the cycling process. Also, it's far better than having an ugly (IMO) goldfish that may or may not die. It doesn't matter that they are cheap. A human with the intelligence to cycle a tank FISHLESS will we able to have the patience, and also the humanity to not harm and/or kill animals - regardless of how cheap they are.

*EDIT: yes, I understand I have a bad habit of not seeing there are 2-3 more pages of responses after the initial page. *


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## KhuliLoachFan

The person who said (a) don't get someone else's media, (b) use goldfish to cycle, is 100% wrong on both counts.  Ummm.... was that tactful enough? ;-)

W


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## KhuliLoachFan

The good thing about this is I have some perspective now. TBemba, you're giving out seriously wrong advice. I am not dispensing my own advice here, but merely passing along what pretty much all the experts say. Cycling with filter media from an established healthy tank is the right way to go. Using "cycling fish" is cruel, and using "feeder fish" is stupid. Yes, they are riddled with diseases and parasites, and are kept in horrible crowded conditions. If you want I'll quote you a bunch of books. Will it help?

W


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## BettaBeats

TBemba said:


> keep reading them books and keep killing them fish like you have been. People like you keep Ba's in business


I have a fish at my parents near or over 10 years old. A beautiful silver dollar the size of my palm.

Can you say that?

*The problem with adding fish to a non-cycled tank to start the nitrogen cycle is that the fish is going to experience poisoning.* If it does survive, it will more-than-likely have *burnt gills*. 
_Having something to look at that is a) dying, and b) swimming in it's excrement is not exciting, nor an intelligent pastime. _

Your experience is based on putting a fish in water that may or may not be conditioned, having it produce bioload, while there is no bacteria AT ALL in the filter media. Of course the ammonia and nitrates will be broken down an establish the nitrogen cycle, but that will take some time and the fish may not survive. If it does, it will be sick.

So you're essentially starting a tank with an unhealthy fish that will be more susceptible to disease and death than if you were patient for a few weeks. In all the fish shops I've been to across the country in the past year I have overheard the staff telling new-hobbyists that it is better to wait, and the majority have given a stern warning with intelligent discussion of why fish-in cycling is out-dated and cruel.

By seeding an aquarium with established bacteria the tank owner will already have bacteria that will start to break down ammonia and nitrites. They won't have to wait for a fish to die. So, using our intelligence, that means the cycle starts FASTER. Fish can go in quicker, and a healthy filter is established.

That seems like a big plus to me!

You may have experience, but you sure don't know how to keep up with the times.


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## NVES

Hello all,

So back on topic, and ignoring the flame wars, here are the latest test results:

May 25 - Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 5 ppm; nitrate 5-10 ppm.

I have been continuing to add approx 25ml of ammonia daily and I can see that in less than 24 hrs it goes from 2-3 to 0 ppm. But the nitrites have not changed, they have been at 5 ppm or higher (5 is the max on the test chart), and I haven't seen much change in the nitrates.

So I'm continuing to be patient, but I do have another question - one of algae. I've got quite a bit of algae growth - what should I do to control the agae?

Thanks,
Aaron


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## PACMAN

okies, i have a quick question.

with such a large volume of water, how would the fish get ammonia poisoning if lets say you gradually add fish. i.e. 1 fish (1 guppy lets say) at start for a while, then add 1 more fish, etc etc. could that < 1 inch fish really produce enough ammonia in the tank to poison himself?? wouldnt the cycle take place without harming him due to the large volume of H20?


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## PACMAN

NVES said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So back on topic, and ignoring the flame wars, here are the latest test results:
> 
> May 25 - Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 5 ppm; nitrate 5-10 ppm.
> 
> I have been continuing to add approx 25ml of ammonia daily and I can see that in less than 24 hrs it goes from 2-3 to 0 ppm. But the nitrites have not changed, they have been at 5 ppm or higher (5 is the max on the test chart), and I haven't seen much change in the nitrates.
> 
> So I'm continuing to be patient, but I do have another question - one of algae. I've got quite a bit of algae growth - what should I do to control the agae?
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


I would say less light, and hopefully once your cycle finishes, a pl*co


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## Zebrapl3co

NVES said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So back on topic, and ignoring the flame wars, here are the latest test results:
> 
> May 25 - Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 5 ppm; nitrate 5-10 ppm.
> 
> I have been continuing to add approx 25ml of ammonia daily and I can see that in less than 24 hrs it goes from 2-3 to 0 ppm. But the nitrites have not changed, they have been at 5 ppm or higher (5 is the max on the test chart), and I haven't seen much change in the nitrates.
> 
> So I'm continuing to be patient, but I do have another question - one of algae. I've got quite a bit of algae growth - what should I do to control the agae?
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


Even though it looks like your cycle is stalled. The nitrite eating bacteria is not producing enough to keep up with the ammonia eating bacteria. It's not really stalled, but your tank is far from balanced. We all know that you have all the bacteria in there, it's just not balanced enough.
There are 2 options open now:
1) continue to grind your teeth can continue to keep dosing the ammonia and hope the bacteria colony will eventually balance out. It's just a matter of time.
2) cheat again by seeding your established filter media again and see where that goes. Seed the filter forget about seeding the tank. About 85-90% of the filtering bacteria is in your filter. Only a very small and insignificant percentage of the bacteria lives in your tank.

As for your algae, what kind of algae is that? Is it growing on your plants or the tank? The best way to remove algae is to do it your self.



PACMAN said:


> okies, i have a quick question.
> 
> with such a large volume of water, how would the fish get ammonia poisoning if lets say you gradually add fish. i.e. 1 fish (1 guppy lets say) at start for a while, then add 1 more fish, etc etc. could that < 1 inch fish really produce enough ammonia in the tank to poison himself?? wouldnt the cycle take place without harming him due to the large volume of H20?


Yes it works, but let me put it this way for you. How much ammonia will that little fish produce to start your bacteria colony? You can have that little fish in there for 2 months and you are still in square one. Your tank is not cycled, that little fishy isn't producing enough ammonia to kick start anything. Add more fish? How many? can you calculate the amount of ammonia each fish product? Can you calculate the rate of decay of your fish's poop. Was it 1 week, 2 weeks or 3 weeks before they start to release ammonia into the tank? Add too little and your tank is going nowhere, add too much and you risk harming the fish.
With ammonia, you have perfect control over how much you are introducing. Supposely, within a shorter time, you can have a fully cycled and established tank in 1 or 1 1/2 month. With a fish cycle, you grow your cycle with each fish you add. But it may take 3 or 4 months to slowly introduce 1 fish at a time to reach that same point. Assuming you don't want to hurt the fish.

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## PACMAN

ahh ok, makes sense. I guess it would be a very slow start up and hard to calculate figures



Zebrapl3co said:


> Yes it works, but let me put it this way for you. How much ammonia will that little fish produce to start your bacteria colony? You can have that little fish in there for 2 months and you are still in square one. Your tank is not cycled, that little fishy isn't producing enough ammonia to kick start anything. Add more fish? How many? can you calculate the amount of ammonia each fish product? Can you calculate the rate of decay of your fish's poop. Was it 1 week, 2 weeks or 3 weeks before they start to release ammonia into the tank? Add too little and your tank is going nowhere, add too much and you risk harming the fish.
> With ammonia, you have perfect control over how much you are introducing. Supposely, within a shorter time, you can have a fully cycled and established tank in 1 or 1 1/2 month. With a fish cycle, you grow your cycle with each fish you add. But it may take 3 or 4 months to slowly introduce 1 fish at a time to reach that same point. Assuming you don't want to hurt the fish.


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## Zebrapl3co

Oh, btw Aaron, I am happy and glad you didn't take the other route. It's tempting when things gets desperate sometimes. But trust me, from experience, you'll be much more happy with fish keeping going this way without regrets.

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## NVES

Zebrapl3co said:


> Oh, btw Aaron, I am happy and glad you didn't take the other route. It's tempting when things gets desperate sometimes. But trust me, from experience, you'll be much more happy with fish keeping going this way without regrets.


Thanks, and I'll admit that I was in Al's and almost bought a dozen goldfish to get it started - but I resisted!
I'm all about doing it right, the first time. So I'm being patient. I'll keep up with the ammonia, and tonight is tank cleaning night so I'll 'swish' the sponge again (haven't done that in a couple of weeks).

The algae, I think is brown spot algae, and it's growing on the sides, wood, rocks, and sand. It hasn't completely taken over, but if I don't control it, it will take over. I'm going to turn off one light and clean what I can of the algae tonight.

This will be the 4th week into the cycling process - so hopefully I should start to see the nitrites drop soon.....

Thanks and take care,
Aaron


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## Philip.Chan.92

Flame war starting? Look at your fish some more, it is scientifically proven that they relieve stress.


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## BettaBeats

NVES said:


> AquariAM - I'm not missing the point and I'd appreciate if you would stop saying so.
> 
> I have been adding ammonia, how else would I get a reading of 4.0 ppm?
> As directed from this forum I keep adding ammonia to keep the readings in the 2-3 range and to stop adding when you get a nitrite spike and then continue adding once the nitrites decrease. Otherwise you risk going into a stalled cycle.
> 
> Which is why I posted here again, to make sure that I'm on the right path or if this is a stalled cycle and if so, what do I do.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


You are doing water changes during the cycle. In my experience, this always prolongs the cycle.


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## BettaBeats

NVES said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So back on topic, and ignoring the flame wars, here are the latest test results:
> 
> May 25 - Ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 5 ppm; nitrate 5-10 ppm.
> 
> I have been continuing to add approx 25ml of ammonia daily and I can see that in less than 24 hrs it goes from 2-3 to 0 ppm. But the nitrites have not changed, they have been at 5 ppm or higher (5 is the max on the test chart), and I haven't seen much change in the nitrates.
> 
> So I'm continuing to be patient, but I do have another question - one of algae. I've got quite a bit of algae growth - what should I do to control the agae?
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron


Don't change your water. You are nearing the end of the cycle. You have a lot of nitrites, soon enough you should see a spike of nitrates. By spike I mean 30-40 or more. You've created the bacteria that make ammonia into nitrites, but you also need to now make the bacteria that make the nitrites into nitrates. You might even see a spike of BOTH soon.

Doing a water change without any fish just adds elements to the cycle that will prolong it.


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## NVES

Ok thanks for the info Bettabeats. I've done one water change of approx 25% since I started cycling, I was going to do another change this week, but after reading your note I'm going to hold off on that.

I just did another test no change - ammonia 0 ppm, nitrite 5+ ppm, nitrate 5-10 ppm. It's been at this stage for a while now.


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## AquariAM

You're almost done cycling. If you grabbed a good chunk of established media from someone and use seachem stability with it you'd be good to go for fish in a couple of days. If not, you should be ready in a week at the most IMO.


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## NVES

Good day all,

This morning's test result: Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrite 4 ppm; Nitrate 40 ppm.

So I think I'm nearing the end, just today I noticed the nitrites drop just a little and the nitrates have slowing increase over the past 2 days. 

Soon fish....


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## AquariAM

Nice. What you gonna get first?

And remember you can acommodate a large number of fish at once because you seeded the tank. Start with the easier ones on your list though.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Congrats on a cruelty-free cycle.  ((applause))

W


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## NVES

Well it's not finished yet, but should be soon.

First thing going in the tank is shrimp - probably 15 amano shrimp.
Then most likely some cardinal tetras.


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> Well it's not finished yet, but should be soon.
> 
> First thing going in the tank is shrimp - probably 15 amano shrimp.
> Then most likely some cardinal tetras.


You should put the cardinals in last when the tank is best broken in. Make sure your tank is fully decorated as well. They don't deal well with lots of open water. 
You sure you want cardinals at all man? That's not really a beginner aquatic pet. Amanos will be fine. But Cardinals... I don't know. Maybe a barb or hardier tetra as your grouping fish would be more appropriate.

Also, I think you should go with something like 40-60 Amano shrimp-- you have 150G of water. 15-20 will disappear. 20 can even disappear in a 40 gallon.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Agreed. It's annoying having the "empty looking" tank. Empty look == Unhappy fishkeeper.

W


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## Jsu

amano shrimps sale a BA scar 1.99 for 3 and BA NY have neons for sale 3 for 1.99


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## NVES

Thanks for the heads up Jsu - I'll be checking out a few places tonight/tomorrow to pick up some shrimp, snails, and a few fish. 
Al's in Newmarket has amano shrimp for $1.99 ea, but Scarborough and Mississauga both have them on 3 for $1.99 - what are the chances that the Newmarket store will honour the price at Scar and Miss? 

The problem is that both Scar and Miss locations are way out of the way for me - I work at 407 & Pine Valley, which is right in the middle of both stores.

So good news all - last night's test results - ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 0.25 ppm; nitrate 40 ppm. The nitrates still need to drop a bit, but I think I'm in the clear to start adding fish, which is why I'm on the hunt for some shrimpies.


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## Jsu

Ill be heading to Scar BA to pick up some shrimp. I can pick some up for you. You should visit franks. he have apistols for sale ranging from 5 to 10 dollars a fish and rams for $7. All hes fish are very colourful.


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## NVES

Jsu said:


> Ill be heading to Scar BA to pick up some shrimp. I can pick some up for you. You should visit franks. he have apistols for sale ranging from 5 to 10 dollars a fish and rams for $7. All hes fish are very colourful.


Hi Jsu, I sent you a PM. But if you're going to pick up some shrimpies, can you please pick me up 21 or 24? Let me know when you're going so I can plan to be home.

Thanks dude!


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> Thanks for the heads up Jsu - I'll be checking out a few places tonight/tomorrow to pick up some shrimp, snails, and a few fish.
> Al's in Newmarket has amano shrimp for $1.99 ea, but Scarborough and Mississauga both have them on 3 for $1.99 - what are the chances that the Newmarket store will honour the price at Scar and Miss?
> 
> The problem is that both Scar and Miss locations are way out of the way for me - I work at 407 & Pine Valley, which is right in the middle of both stores.
> 
> So good news all - last night's test results - ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 0.25 ppm; nitrate 40 ppm. The nitrates still need to drop a bit, but I think I'm in the clear to start adding fish, which is why I'm on the hunt for some shrimpies.


ZERO. BA's Newmarket is not corporate.

Also, nitrite 0.25 = no fish no animals. Need 0. Also you need waterchanges to bring nitrate <20


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## NVES

AquariAM said:


> ZERO. BA's Newmarket is not corporate.


Eventhough it says right on their website, guaranteed lowest price - if you find the same product sold at any retail store for less, Big Al's will beat the price by 5%. http://www.bigalscanada.com/Features/VIPProgram/viphome.html

Kind of hard to argue with that statement, esp when I have the card and have used it several times at both Newmarket and Vaughan. Oh well, Jsu is going to fix me up! 
I'll probably go there and inquire anyway, just to stir pot and to window shop.

I will be doing a water change in the next couple of days.

Thanks,


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## AquariAM

NVES said:


> Eventhough it says right on their website, guaranteed lowest price - if you find the same product sold at any retail store for less, Big Al's will beat the price by 5%. http://www.bigalscanada.com/Features/VIPProgram/viphome.html
> 
> Kind of hard to argue with that statement, esp when I have the card and have used it several times at both Newmarket and Vaughan. Oh well, Jsu is going to fix me up!
> I'll probably go there and inquire anyway, just to stir pot and to window shop.
> 
> I will be doing a water change in the next couple of days.
> 
> Thanks,


Big Al's online and retail are two seperate divisions and do not adhere to the same policies. Similarly AFAIK only Scarb and Miss are corporate owned and the others are independant (which is why they suck IMO) meaning they can set their own policies.

I would try to avoid BA's livestock as a noob honestly. Not the most clean possible situation to be buying fish from. I'd try to go to someone like Menagerie or Frank or something like that or other hobbyists.


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## Tetrathug

I agree with AquariAM about BA's livestock. It's how I first discovered callumanus worms.


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## NVES

AquariAM said:


> I would try to avoid BA's livestock as a noob honestly. Not the most clean possible situation to be buying fish from. I'd try to go to someone like Menagerie or Frank or something like that or other hobbyists.


Warning taken - I will be purchasing the majority of my fish from other places, and I plan on visiting Frank's in the next couple of weeks.

Last night's test results - ammonia 0 ppm; nitrite 0 ppm; nitrate 20 ppm. 
I added 15 amano shrimp, 10 silver-tip tetras, and 2 golden apple snails. Plan on doing a water change this w/e and will keep a close eye on the water parameters, also no more fish for a couple of weeks.

So no more ETS - empty tank syndrome! Woohoo final fish!!


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## KhuliLoachFan

Well I haven't gotten any diseased fish from BA's Scarboro or Vaughn ever. 

W


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## Zebrapl3co

BA isn't that bad. It's better than some stores that knowingly sell you sick fish. At least if you complain about it. BA would close the tank and try to treat it. Well ... the corporate ones anyway.

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## AquariAM

Zebrapl3co said:


> BA isn't that bad. It's better than some stores that knowingly sell you sick fish. At least if you complain about it. BA would close the tank and try to treat it. Well ... the corporate ones anyway.


Oh yeah? I complained 3 times about the same tank at a corporate BA's having camalanus worms. Nothing was done. finally I found the manager (of the store because even the moron FR manager didn't do it) and insisted it be shut down.


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## Lee_D

Just read through this thread and wanted to say how helpfull I found it. I'm actually impressed with the flame war because it got my attention on the do's and don'ts of cycling. I intend to approach it differently in future. I usually add plants after the chlorine is gone then a month later I add the fish. I now realize all I have done is started the cycle a month late.

But thats not my question. My question is "How is the Algae Going?" When I set up a tank I usually get a huge Algae bloom that covers all my plants like a carpet. I'm having a devil of a time getting rid of it.


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## NVES

I did get quite a bit of algae growth, but then I turned down the lights and that seemed to stop the growth. 

And now I just added 2 busynose plecos - little guys only 1.5" long and within less than a day all aglae was gone! In fact it was within minutes of me putting them in the tank, that they started eating the algae. So now with no algae I'm able to got to full lighting, which is 4x65 watt.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## KhuliLoachFan

Excellent. The algae is growing, exporting nitrates and nitrites, and the plecos eat it, and everything looks good.  Good thing about bushynose; I don't see their poop everywhere, it seems smaller and easier to hide it. With my full size pleco, the poop was everywhere, and it was worse than the algae, for the overall 'look' of the tank.  I loved the dude dearly, but he was outgrowing the 50g so I gave him away to someone who loves pwecos.

W


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## Lee_D

Congrats on the Algae. I never seem to have that luck. I saw a tag line on a post once that said "I'm a Crypt Farmer". I'm pretty sure I'm an Algae Farmer.

So now that you have it set up and starting to take shape, what do you think of it it terms of dimensions? I've been thinking of "Going Big" and I'm wondering how big is "To Big". Not in reference to the room or anything, I was just thinking of getting a six footer and I'm not sure my eyesight is good enough to take in much longer than that.

Anybody else with a big tank i'd love to hear thier opinion as well.


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## NVES

Lee_D said:


> So now that you have it set up and starting to take shape, what do you think of it it terms of dimensions? I've been thinking of "Going Big" and I'm wondering how big is "To Big". Not in reference to the room or anything, I was just thinking of getting a six footer and I'm not sure my eyesight is good enough to take in much longer than that.
> 
> Anybody else with a big tank i'd love to hear thier opinion as well.


I'm loving the large tank, and I like the look the tall tanks - only I wish my arms were another foot longer. It does make aquascaping rather difficult.

If I were to do it all over again, I'd go with a 150 long (6'x2'x2'), that way you can reach to the bottom of the tank with ease.


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## Lee_D

Just got back from Big Als Oakville. They have a 6' x 20" x 18" and a 4' x 24" x 18" on display. They both look Awesome. I'm determined to wait till September before I make a decision though, which will likely make for a very long summer (Not sure if thats good or bad 

What dimensions did you get if you don't mind my asking? I didn't notice if it was in an earlier post.


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## NVES

My tank is 48"x24"x30" (lxwxh)


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## TBemba

NVES said:


> My tank is 48"x24"x30" (lxwxh)


Not a great tank for plants but you can have some Amazon swords and other low light plants in there like crypts. With a tank this tall it is really hard to get the light to penetrate that deep. Also cleaning is a chore. But it is a great show tank and would be perfect for Angels or Discus.


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## Lee_D

30 inches tall? Wow! Thats almost as tall as if I turned my 50 gallon on end. I can see how it would be a real arm pit buster. But I bet it would look great with some Amazon Swords in the middle (as TBemba suggests) and some giant vals at the ends.


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## Zebrapl3co

Lee_D said:


> Just got back from Big Als Oakville. They have a 6' x 20" x 18" and a 4' x 24" x 18" on display. They both look Awesome. I'm determined to wait till September before I make a decision though, which will likely make for a very long summer (Not sure if thats good or bad
> 
> What dimensions did you get if you don't mind my asking? I didn't notice if it was in an earlier post.


Having own a 4' tank, I am in the mind set that there is no tank that is too big to look at. There is only a tank that is too small because I can't add any more fish.
If you can get a tank without causing issue with your family about space, get it.
But yeah, I agree that it's a hell of a job to reach for those high tanks.

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## NVES

Ok well ignoring the past 3 posts that will only lead to another flame war.

Back on topic!! 

As much as I complain, curse, swear, etc while cleaning or aquascaping my tank, I do really like the look of the tall tank.

Last night while watching my tank for a while, I noticed how empty it looks with only 12 fish swimming around. But I also have a hard time visualizing how it would look with 50 more fish in there. 
Part of me thinks that it will look too crowded.

Thanks all,
Aaron


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## KhuliLoachFan

I guess you need a mix of upper/surface, mid-water, and bottom dwelling species, to make a tall tank look good. 

I wonder if cories would be stressed out by the very very long trip to the surface, in a tall tank. 

W


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## trailblazer295

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I guess you need a mix of upper/surface, mid-water, and bottom dwelling species, to make a tall tank look good.
> 
> I wonder if cories would be stressed out by the very very long trip to the surface, in a tall tank.
> 
> W


X2 looking into species that will fill out the 3 areas of the tank will help it look fuller without taking to much say middle space away from the fish. With it more spread out over the whole tank each fish has more space to swim while looking fuller and more lively to watch.


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## NVES

I'm keeping that in mind as I play with my stocking list.

Bottom - amano shrimp, snails, plecos
Bottom - Middle - Bolivian rams
Middle - upper - cardinal and silver tip tetras

I think also adding to the empty tank look, is that my plants haven't fully filled in yet. My cabomba has grown 5-6" in the past 2 weeks, and my bacopa is about 2-3" in 2 weeks.


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## PACMAN

updated pictures please!


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## Ciddian

I had to deleted 18 posts... 18.

Can you guys grow up, really? And don't be dicks to each other? I am sure we don't wanna be known as a bunch of fish snobs. Esp in the beginner forum!

If you can't be _*polite and respectful*_ well then GTFU. Since people have no idea of what respectful means anymore. :/

If your post is gone, then heads up. 2 more strikes and a week ban.

Can you tell my kid has been teething for three days?... I am not a happy camper.

Sorry for the thread crap there OP.


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## KhuliLoachFan

So. Back to talking about fish. A lovely species for a tall tank:


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## NVES

Thanks Ciddian - I tried to steer the ship back onto course a couple of times.


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## AquariAM

In such a large tank you can do Festivum and angels together. Like in the wild.


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## Zebrapl3co

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I guess you need a mix of upper/surface, mid-water, and bottom dwelling species, to make a tall tank look good.
> 
> I wonder if cories would be stressed out by the very very long trip to the surface, in a tall tank.
> 
> W


From my experience, corries should do fine. I have a 36" tall tank and my sterbia corry and green corry did very well.

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## thename123

Although I do not have a taller tank or discus. I have been informed that discus do very well in tall tanks. They apparently do school/group when put in numbers. They also apparently benifit from larger numbers as it reduces the stress they recieve (they feel safer).


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## AquariAM

thename123 said:


> Although I do not have a taller tank or discus. I have been informed that discus do very well in tall tanks. They apparently do school/group when put in numbers. They also apparently benifit from larger numbers as it reduces the stress they recieve (they feel safer).


 This will apparently that. Not helping anybody. He can just go read that in any reference information. What he needs is sure fire advice based on experience. His setup will also not be conducive to happy discus without significant alterations.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Discus are tough to keep. No "discus are fun" suggestions in BEGINNER circle, pls. Kthxbye.

W


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## AquariAM

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Discus are tough to keep. No "discus are fun" suggestions in BEGINNER circle, pls. Kthxbye.
> 
> W


+1
And no beginners suggesting discus for that matter


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## thename123

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Discus are tough to keep. No "discus are fun" suggestions in BEGINNER circle, pls. Kthxbye.
> 
> W


It was just a suggestion. I am ingnorant to discus care, I am just going off a friends suggestion. He told me that discus arent hard to care of (he had a number of discus for years, all healthy and long living). I apologise for my wrong information.


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