# Poll reply to frank's poll



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

The problem in gta is that there are less then 100 people keeping shrimps in all of GTA and Toronto. 5 million people.
How do we increase that number?

Frank, although I agree dropping prices will help intially, I honestly believe it's only focusing short term.
A)Someone who has no interested in shrimp won't buy even if it's on sale b/c they don't care (not enough exposure/advertising to the hobby)
B)Someone who has slight interest in shrimps might buy a few but will give up in a few months if they all die (This is usually what happens)
C)Someone who is interested in CRS will be happy "Now" that CRS are on sale, but it will lower the market price and they will not be happy when they find out the new batch of SSS crs which they breed are only worth $10 each when 3 months ago it was $45.

My strategy is to keep prices as is. Have some occasional sales on lower grades A/S/S+. Post many youtube/blog tutorials on SetUp/Products reviews/how to do proper w/e, breeding techniques so people can feel more confident with keeping shrimps and attract new members. They'll also have a nice surprise when their new babies are worth a small fortune. If you degrade the market value of crs then I might as well be keep cherries.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> The problem in gta is that there are less then 100 people keeping shrimps in all of GTA and Toronto. 5 million people.
> How do we increase that number?
> 
> Frank, although I agree dropping prices will help intially, I honestly believe it's only focusing short term.
> ...


Jay, my pole is strictly aimed towards seeing and allowing people to see how simple setups can lead to successful shrimp keeping and the level of interest people may venture into actually keeping shrimp if prices were lower as opposed to keeping them the same. That's it. Also you have to understand this is a hobby and if people can provide shrimps for an utterly low price because they want to share their passion isn't that their choice?

"Someone who is interested in CRS will be happy "Now" that CRS are on sale, but it will lower the market price and they will not be happy when they find out the new batch of SSS crs which they breed are only worth $10 each when 3 months ago it was $45" <- that's just like saying that the purpose of buying shrimps is to make money? sure its nice to break even for this hobby but when you go out to buy like asian arowana I don't think (correct me if i'm wrong) that people are after breeding them. I've dealt with many people and all they are interested in is setting up a nice planted tank with candy cane looking shrimps. Prices for everything always fluctuate and for $45 each for SSS wow... but not the point. I'm not sure why your making such a big fuss about prices...

"If you degrade the market value of crs then I might as well be keep cherries." <- isn't that statement a tad bit too business orientated and opinionated.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Frank you knew I was gonna post something once I saw your poll haha, I mean common we just had this discussion, partially. I know communicating via "text" is often misinterpreted and i don't mean to sound fussy. I think ultimately we have the same goal and that is to grow this hobby here in toronto.

Okay frank, do what you seem fit. I do admit your in the shrimp breeding business and that you know alot more then most people on here including me.

But the point I've been trying to make to you is that we can push the 100 number up to 500 before the end of the year even without dropping prices.
We just need a dozen or so well made youtube tutorials on the main subjects and I know that will create confidence amongst potential, beginner, and moderate shrimp keepers.
it'll answer the most commonly asked questions which have been repeated countless time throughout countless forums. It'll give a sense of assuredness amongst the members here cause I know alot of people including me at some point question if what we are doing is A) correct and B) properly executed. I'm personally glad we have a professional breeder on here that can guide alot of members with indepth techniques. Btw great job on the other post.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Frank you knew I was gonna post something once I saw your poll haha, I mean common we just had this discussion, partially. I know communicating via "text" is often misinterpreted and i don't mean to sound fussy. I think ultimately we have the same goal and that is to grow this hobby here in toronto.
> 
> Okay frank, do what you seem fit. I do admit your in the shrimp breeding business and that you know alot more then most people on here including me.
> 
> ...


growing the hobby and getting people into buying livestock and equipment is the jobs of aquarium stores and retailers and what not, for a hobbyist who is interested in the keeping of shrimps and actually sharing their passion for shrimps. It maybe just me but I don't understand why someone has to be so set on keeping price the same and increasing the population of people in keeping / buying shrimps.

I'm taking it a little more personal and using more of my own opinions because you put my name on the thread as you totally misread my intentions of my thread. For me personally giving away shrimp for free as a RAOK is what will "ruin the market" in the position of looking at it at a business aspect. Quite a few people in GTA area knows a friend of my named Stuart in BC as they have purchased staurogyne from him. I see this hobby as a way to share and expand experience. I've given stuart quite a few shrimps for free and some expensive and rare plants that just about no one in BC has. He learns ways of maybe bettering their color but as Leon knows he knows more about plants than I do and so he would share his experiences of how to grow the plant better and such. If the price was set the same. He may never even have bought that plant even though he knows how to keep it. But because of me giving him at such a low price and even for free. This sharing is what's going to increase the interest level of people. Anyways, that's all I have to say if you get my drift.

Yes, I do sell shrimps at what price I see as that "normal" price and people who buy from me are basically allowing me to expand and see other ways of bettering methods of shrimp keeping and breeding. But this is also a way for me to breed at a faster rate than anyone else and my way of giving back to the community is to give it at a low price or what not or RAOK. I don't just tell people what I do and am very secretive about it because I worked my ass off in figuring these things out. Me providing it at a low price of RAOK is to allow others to try and figure things out and to keep it. Same as patents on certain technologies. I don't think people are going to go around sharing how their patents or secrets work. By showing people its capable in doing something allows other to persue something better which is how things keep getting interesting.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

one more example I would like to add as bettaforu knows of this incident on a US website. A person on a forum fairly well liked had quite a few tanks of just shrimps. He purchased some additives for his tanks and killed off almost all his colonies of shrimps in a single night. He is one of a few lucky people to have purchased Aura blues. He took a huge hit financially because of this and lost thousands of dollars and he even stated that he won't be going into shrimps anymore because of the bad experience and financially can't get new colonies to start over. Although I represent shrimplab, I acted on my own and sent him free of charge over 350-450 dollars worth of shrimps to let him restart his colony and to re-ignite his passion for shrimps, I also included a new group of Aura blues and a new variant of shrimps that he never had before. If I did not do that, do you think that person would get back into shrimps because of the bad experience and the impact it had on him financially? Just something to think about


----------



## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

question: how do you know that there are less than 100 ppl keeping shrimp in the gta?


----------



## Beijing08 (Jul 19, 2010)

I agree with Jay that there is definitely going to be a huge impact on this market if prices are kept that low.

But IMO only for the better.

I think there should be an option for even lower prices. i.e. *75% or so*. no offense to any breeders.
That, in essence, is THE GREATEST INCENTIVE for people to start keeping shrimp. Hands down.

for instance - cherry shrimp or yellow shrimp. The reason why SO many people have these is because the prices are actually lower than fish.

I would be all over these guys at that 75% discount. The only incentive I would think of breeders NOT lowering prices is basically for profit - which is perfectly understandable. But saying "NOT LOWERING PRICES AND EDUCATING PEOPLE" is like saying "you are not skilled enough to keep these expensive little buggers".

Who would be willing to try again?

To me, calling that "shutting down" the market would be an understatement. That's like shutting down a breeder's own road to wealth and success

*My example:

Taiwan Bees

since youtube videos is the way to "prove a point"





Price of BKK 2010 - $830 USD
Price of BKK 2011 - $400 (a drop of OVER 50% in 1 year)

That's how people are kept in the game as opposed to giving up. I'm pretty sure even Jay would even give Taiwan Bees a try if prices were 75% of the initial market price.
We do know that Taiwan Bees are harder to keep than even CRS.
Now, Crystal reds have been around since 1996; they were mass produced for sale starting roughly 2005; I do believe that breeders have kept the prices high for long enough, it's time for a change.*


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Best way to increase the demand, or market, for shrimps is to get them into retail stores at a greater level. 

The people who breed them should take more time to develop relationships with retail stores, instead of selling them on the side, on the forums, or through their own online "companies". Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that - it is part of the hobby, and always has been. Everyone always wants a piece of the pie!

However, "new" people pick up new things at stores - most people who will use the aforementioned areas to get stock already keep them or are fairly experienced overall. By undercutting retail stores, you lose exposure and create a situation where the retail stores can't compete with price so don't bother ordering and selling them.

Passing on knowledge on keeping shrimp to the staff at the stores will allow them to pass it on to the customers, assuming they are stocking said shrimp. This will likely lead to a larger demographic of people who are already interested in "fish", become interested in "shrimp".

Alas, most mentality is:

I can get $10 for 1 shrimp and sell 50 a month, where it should be:

I can get $5 a shrimp to a store, and sell 200 a month.

One nets you $500/month, another nets you $1000/month. You do the math and figure it out =D


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

And by the way, I wanted to add that both this poll and the related one are really bad polls.

Both give options, but both also make huge assumptions with those options.


----------



## msnikkistar (Sep 29, 2010)

I can't vote on this subject, as I do not agree with any of the selections that were given! Is there an "other" option?

Anyways, I can confirm that Frank gave Chad free shrimp when he had a complete wipe-out of all his shrimp. He made it blatantly clear he was never going to get into shrimp again. After Frank's generosity, he has since began his shrimp-loving adventures once again. He has since made additional purchases of shrimp and is fully back in the game.

For me, I keep shrimp because I love them. Sure there is profit in it, but what is the point of keeping prices that will continue to be maintained at high prices? When I first purchased BKK, they were quite expensive at $350 - $400 a piece earlier in the year, they have since dropped to $100-$150 a piece. Same goes for a lot of other shrimp out there. Do a market research with people within the planted community, and you will see that the vast majority of consumers will not purchase shrimp above $10 a piece. I have done this, and I can factually say that 90% of all consumers will NOT pay above $10 a piece, however they do enjoy the beauty of a SSS+ CRS. Financially, they can not afford to spend $45-$50 a piece for a nice specimen, and for that reason, will never venture into shrimp outside of RCS or the cheaper variants. So if you are an individual wanting to expand shrimp keeping as a hobby as your main objective, then dropping prices should be the first thing you would want to do. Dropping prices would enable A LOT of people who couldn't afford it before, to do so now. 

However, even if you didn't want them to drop long term, it will happen. The market will become saturated at some point, which in turn will drop prices significantly. So your point in keeping prices high is moot, because the inevitable outcome will be prices dropping, whether that be now or later. 

I personally am for the expansion of the hobby, which is why there are things I do that allow people to purchase shrimp that are rare or hard to obtain at cheaper rates. Obviously, with me being the CEO of Shrimplab US, I am about profit as well, but my livelihood does not depend on the sales of shrimp from myself, but from the expansion of the hobby. Yes, I want to make a profit, but my first love always will be the shrimp and sharing that love to everyone who wants to.


----------



## sujeev87 (Oct 17, 2010)

This thread seems a little over my head but I think that maybe lowering the price of shrimp and educating people in combination would increase the interest in the hobby. 

If you take a moment to think about it, you would realize that lowering the price of shrimp is inevitable. If the price of shrimp stays the same but more information on shrimp care is made available to hobbyists than this would lead to better care and ideally an increase in number of shrimps born. Not everyone will intend on selling there shrimp but some will. This would lead to an increase in competition in sale of shrimp and if there isn't enough demand for shrimp, than prices will eventually drop do to the lack of demand. 

If you drop the prices and increase amount of information on shrimp care, this would lead to better shrimp care and also bring in more and more people into this hobby to create enough demand and keep prices more stable. A price drop will also keep some people in this hobby after a mass death. 

Times are also tough. People may have money but are reluctant to spend it due to the recession and some may not have enough money to spend to get into the hobby. So lowering price is necessity in this market to expect good growth in this hobby in Toronto.

The hardest thing here to do is figure out a balance between a decent price drop that will increase increase interest gradually and also a drop that will keep it financially profitable for breeders. 

Regardless, people will sell shrimp for what ever price they feel is fair, be it for $45 or $5. It'll be up to the consumer to pay what they feel is fair or just a great deal


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Best way to increase the demand, or market, for shrimps is to get them into retail stores at a greater level.
> 
> The people who breed them should take more time to develop relationships with retail stores, instead of selling them on the side, on the forums, or through their own online "companies". Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that - it is part of the hobby, and always has been. Everyone always wants a piece of the pie!
> 
> ...


I agree with basically ever point you've made inclusive of the polls as well (was made in the early mornings of 3-4 am as i couldn't sleep but o wells). However, the stores itself also depends on what they are really after. I've dealt with workers of some retailer stores who manage the livestock department and are just very passionate about what they do. I can definitely see how that can expand that markets and interest. However, quite a few that i've dealt with (i guess i have a knack for attracting such people) who don't really care and are in it for the money and all they care about is try to leech info on breeding and mass breeding and not keeping which is why i simplified things and made a thread about simple shrimp keeping, but with a bad poll attached to it.


----------



## Beijing08 (Jul 19, 2010)

simple economics.

two curves, the supply and the demand.

*As prices drop, demand (quantity) increases.*










the key thing is to find the equilibrium.
In order to find the equilibrium, however, the breeder may resort to OVERSHOOTING the price dropping until it is clearly discernible. Although it may not be a smart decision, the choice is his/hers. 
But it'll surely benefit people who are sitting on the fence about entering the shrimp world


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

As with every line of business, there are the good and the bad.

Don't fool yourself in thinking that money isn't the main driving factor for all of them though - but it is great to be able to make a living doing something you love!



Ebi-Ken said:


> I agree with basically ever point you've made inclusive of the polls as well (was made in the early mornings of 3-4 am as i couldn't sleep but o wells). However, the stores itself also depends on what they are really after. I've dealt with workers of some retailer stores who manage the livestock department and are just very passionate about what they do. I can definitely see how that can expand that markets and interest. However, quite a few that i've dealt with (i guess i have a knack for attracting such people) who don't really care and are in it for the money and all they care about is try to leech info on breeding and mass breeding and not keeping which is why i simplified things and made a thread about simple shrimp keeping, but with a bad poll attached to it.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Time will tell.


----------



## msnikkistar (Sep 29, 2010)

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I can understand why I would be concerned with pricing as I deal in retail or any other retailer. However, the hobbyist side of me doesn't logically understand how or why another hobbyist is so concerned with keeping pricing high. Taking the business side out of me, as a hobbyist, I would like to save money and get more bang for the buck. Not sure why you wouldn't want to as well.

*Shrug*


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Because your lowering prices without expanding the market.

In 3 months the market will be saturated with cheap high grade crs with low demand. 

My only concern is this:
Will this price drop bring in new hobbists?
1)A price drop of all CRS grades will allow current shrimp keeps (estimate is around 100 in Toronto/GTA) to buy more shrimps high grade crs at lower prices. This is great but it doesn't expand the market.

2)People with an interest and are thinking about setting up a tank. They are most likely to buy A/S/S+ grades (this will probably reach a small percentage of current fish keepers)

3)People currently keeping fish, who know about shrimps/crs but haven't really taken an interest in it because they are foreign to the hobby. (this is the large chunk you should be after, above 90% of total aquarists) <- you need to develop a marketing strategy to reach them. this is what i mean by expanding your market.

example #1
If you want to sell a product to an established customer base, you lower the price because they are familiar with it and it's an incentive to buy it.
But if you want to sell a product to the masses who have no idea what your product is, you advertise it and grab their attention. You show them their demographic holding, playing, using the product and establish a sense of familiarity. Hand out samples, show demonstrations.

example #2
I want more people in toronto to keep blowfish/puffer.
Do I:
A) lower price (which only effects current "pufferists" or people considering keeping puffers) The majority probably won't even notice as they aren't aware of the current price.
or
B) Make videos on youtube about how fun/beautiful/interesting it is to keep puffers, followed up by tutorials on how to keep them. This is the chunk of meat you should be sinking your teeth into.


This isn't about business or making money. This is about attracting new/fresh members to grow the hobby and maintaining the value.

Look into your crs tank and estimate the value. Now cut that value in half, this will be the reality in a few months time. If everyone is okay with their SS or SSS at half value as long as your able to buy cheap ones to fill a tank full, well then this is a good situation.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Even as a hobbyist I like the idea my SSS is worth $40 as oppose to $15.


----------



## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

How do you figure it's 100?

And the price of almost everything falls in this hobby.


----------



## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

......

changed perspective...


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

bigfishy said:


> ......
> 
> changed perspective...


It's too bad you can't change your vote 

Brian, there's no way of knowing exactly how as a lot of epople may not use gtaaquaria, but from speaking to frank at franks' aquarium which has an entire shrimp section and AI who sells all the soils and supplements this is the estimate we established. Under 100 members.

As for "prices dropping naturally" I don't know how natural it is for a 60% drop overnight. you can get more members without price drop. Would you buy something you didnkt know about/understand because it was cheaper?

Want to expand the hobby, get the fisher keepers to convert. How? Give them free cherries/amano shrimps for their fish tanks. Then the rest will happen naturally as it did with most of us.


----------



## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Damn, I didn't bother to read this and just voted. I wish I can change my mind too. Ecomomics, crystal shrimp, increasing interest and cornering the market, this is just so juicy. 
If you are trying to corner the market by flooding the market with cheaper priced CRS, then you've just succesfully dig your own grave. Canada simply doesn't have that kind of number of people like Japan, Taiwan or China.
Oversaturated is very possible. It may be different in the states, but Canada is very limited.
If you are the biggest and only entity in the market. You go and try to force out the hobbiest by under cutting the value of the shrimps they bought from you ... well, they will simply give up. And for every hobbiest that gives up, that's one future potential customer gone. That's one person who might have sold a few shrimps to a bunch of people who might be your future customer (if you are the only legitamit entity).
And if you should go into a price war and risk causing the shrimp business to cave in. It's always the biggest entity that have the most to loose from, not the individual hobbiest who can just walk away.
Then there is the fact that interest will come and go and then return again. We are growing pretty good this time around, but make no mistake about it. It will wane for a while. This has happened to Japan too. What will you do then?
CEO is a very immpressive title, do you guys even have a finacial adviser or even a CFO? 

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## msnikkistar (Sep 29, 2010)

Zebrapl3co said:


> It may be different in the states, but Canada is very limited.
> 
> If you are the biggest and only entity in the market.
> 
> CEO is a very immpressive title, do you guys even have a finacial adviser or even a CFO?


True, I am not sure how Canada is to be honest. I'm a little envious of your import laws because I have to be permitted and all kinds of junk to get shrimp into the US. I can see the difference between the two in regards to pricing. We can get 10 Blue Tigers for 50 shipped, or get 20 yellows for 40 shipped. And heck there are some hobbyist that sell SS/SS+ for 2-3 dollars a pop at times. Granted those prices are limited, but still something that can be done with patience if one was wanting to wait for a hobbyist to sell. Although, I have from time to time sold it at low prices to get students or people in financial hardship a chance to become a hobbyist. I recently sold 10 SS+ CBS for 25 shipped for the heck of it. But that is in the US, and with you guys being limited, I can see the difference.

Too bad this isn't the case, there are at least 4 sites I know of that sell invertebrates. How would one be able to take out the competition? A hobbyist would be any big retailers biggest competition as their overhead would be the same as a them wouldn't it? Heck in the US, I know a whole ton of hobbyist that sell to the big retailers, LFS, or match pricing. So I do not see how someone whom is breeding shrimp would ever be cut out of hte market. Now if you are buying nad reselling, THAT'S a WHOLE different story. You will be knocked out, and I can see that. But again, not if you are breeding them.

LOL, One day we will  For now, I am the person who has to wear both hats.

EDIT: By the way, new variants will always come out, so there will be something that is always going to come out in the market that will fetch top dollar in my opinion.


----------



## bluescorpio (Mar 13, 2011)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> It's too bad you can't change your vote
> 
> Brian, there's no way of knowing exactly how as a lot of epople may not use gtaaquaria, but from speaking to frank at franks' aquarium which has an entire shrimp section and AI who sells all the soils and supplements this is the estimate we established. Under 100 members.
> 
> ...


totaly agree with jay here.
and just an idea tho, drop the price of the A grades or lower grade to introduce CRS to new comers would be a good idea too.
if they like the shimp, eventually they will invest in higher grades to breed their own CRS. and with the lower grades, they learn how to keep and raise the shimps.


----------



## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> It's too bad you can't change your vote


I didn't vote, but I have said something that could change the whole shrimp industry overnight!

I got warned by "some" important figure, so I deleted my message


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

I even offered AI to do a live show next month.

I would do demonstrations on tank setup. Filter reviews. Feeding, water changes, lighting and plants and DIY.

Haha bigfishy that's quite some responsibility.


----------



## msnikkistar (Sep 29, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> I even offered AI to do a live show next month.
> 
> I would do demonstrations on tank setup. Filter reviews. Feeding, water changes, lighting and plants and DIY.
> 
> Haha bigfishy that's quite some responsibility.


Do it, I have done this for local clubs myself.


----------



## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> This isn't about business or making money. This is about attracting new/fresh members to grow the hobby and maintaining the value.
> 
> Look into your crs tank and estimate the value. Now cut that value in half, this will be the reality in a few months time. If everyone is okay with their SS or SSS at half value as long as your able to buy cheap ones to fill a tank full, well then this is a good situation.


From a hobbyists pov, I don't see dollar signs when I look at my shrimp. Sure, if I spent $ 35 ea on a bunch and they became 'devalued' over thier life span that would be somewhat dissapointing, but anyone spending money on premium items needs to understand that risk.

Also, as msnikkistar said there will always be a new exciting variant that will demand top dollar - exactly, I would expect the rest, as they become more common, to become more affordable.


----------



## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Exactly, Greg.

Therefore, an effort/attempt to keep prices the same is futile.


----------



## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

Is it just me? or are the choices of this poll showing the extreme bias of the poster?

Just reading the first option makes me feel like the poll creater hates the first option, and not really in the spirit of creating polls that are suppose to be neutral in all fronts, and not let the wording of the question or option influence of the voter's choice...

anywho, just pointing it out since it occurred to me when I read this.


----------



## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

msnikkistar said:


> Now if you are buying nad reselling, THAT'S a WHOLE different story. You will be knocked out, and I can see that. But again, not if you are breeding them.
> 
> LOL, One day we will  For now, I am the person who has to wear both hats.
> 
> EDIT: By the way, new variants will always come out, so there will be something that is always going to come out in the market that will fetch top dollar in my opinion.


I disagree with you!


----------



## Alexpatrascu (Jun 13, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> example #2
> I want more people in toronto to keep blowfish/puffer.
> Do I:
> A) lower price (which only effects current "pufferists" or people considering keeping puffers) The majority probably won't even notice as they aren't aware of the current price.
> ...


I do agree with Frank on his small/cheap setup CRS tank but I have to give it to Jay on this one !!!

^^
+1


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Hitch said:


> Is it just me? or are the choices of this poll showing the extreme bias of the poster?
> 
> Just reading the first option makes me feel like the poll creater hates the first option, and not really in the spirit of creating polls that are suppose to be neutral in all fronts, and not let the wording of the question or option influence of the voter's choice...
> 
> anywho, just pointing it out since it occurred to me when I read this.


agreed, and after seeing this:


CrystalMethShrimp said:


> there's no way of knowing exactly how as a lot of epople may not use gtaaquaria, but from speaking to frank at franks' aquarium which has an entire shrimp section and AI who sells all the soils and supplements this is the estimate we established. Under 100 members.


it explains and gives insight to why the poster might be so concerned about prices.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Alexpatrascu said:


> I do agree with Frank on his small/cheap setup CRS tank but I have to give it to Jay on this one !!!
> 
> ^^
> +1


I'd have to disagree, If Jay compared it to microfish it would have been a little better. But puffer's is a whole different story. Everything required to keep that is bigger and even with a price drop on that, there wouldn't be a much of a change in number of people keeping it. Unlike shrimps or microfish. You wouldn't really have a problem keeping them in a container if you were given some for free right than and there.


----------



## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

On average, not too many people in Toronto care at all about the aquarium hobby. 

Promoting CRS husbandry on YouTube still won't net you the results you would want, in my opinion. The majority of people in the city can care less about the aquarium hobby. What makes you think they'll hop on YouTube one day and do a search for CRS? 

They'd rather go watch a fat chick fall off a trampoline or spend their money on booze, clothes, food, etc. If they were remotely thinking about keeping pets, it would be farfetched to assume that CRS would be the pet of choice they'd decide to keep when venturing right into this hobby. 

Once again, the prices of CRS will never remain the way they are.

When cherries first became popular, they were going at $3 a pop or 5 for $10 a Menagerie.

Slowly, cherries have become the new price ghost shrimp and CRS have taken over the cherries role, or at least the lower grades have. 

This thread, from what I've gathered, is aimed at keeping the prices of CRS the same as they are now as opposed to dropping them while also promoting the hobby enough to bring in new hobbyists. (Lol...)

I'd also like to add that without the price drop of the different gradings of CRS and the other exotic shrimps, many of us who are in the hobby now would probably not be in it today if it wasn't for the more affordable price tag.

If you want a way to make some good gwap off breeding anything in this hobby forever, you're destined to fail. 

Once again, everything changes. People fail because they often find a favourable state and wish to remain in it. Not going to happen, the word for that is death.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

bigfishy said:


> I didn't vote, but I have said something that could change the whole shrimp industry overnight!
> 
> I got warned by "some" important figure, so I deleted my message


(correct me if i'm wrong) your change in what you said was most likely changed by your own co-worker whom I spoke to last night but what you said last night is true.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Brian said:


> On average, not too many people in Toronto care at all about the aquarium hobby.
> 
> Promoting CRS husbandry on YouTube still won't net you the results you would want, in my opinion. The majority of people in the city can care less about the aquarium hobby. What makes you think they'll hop on YouTube one day and do a search for CRS?
> 
> ...


Agreed, this is my last reply on the thread as it seems ridiculous to argue over price. Keep in mind a hobbyist/breeder is entitled to sell at whatever price they want to sell at and this thread doesn't change it. Once your talking about "saturating the market" or "maintaining market price" dude thats all for the business aspect and not the hobbyist side. A hobbyist wouldn't care so much about value of a good unless your a collector. And even for a shrimp collector they buy because they like. Not because they want to breed. It also looks like buying shrimps is ALL about breeding and maintaining your shrimps "value" so you can watch your pot of gold grow. Instead of keeping shrimps because it adds a bit of color to your desk or room and as a little get-a-way time to relax and just enjoy and seeing breeding and babies as a bonus.


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

It's impossible for prices to remain the same. The more shrimps you sell (in order to make money), the more people will be able to breed their own shrimps, and the more shrimps there are on the market.

Another factor with dwarf shrimps is that you really have to be an enthusiast to appreciate it. Unlike, say, goldfish, you can't really convince a business to put up a shrimp tank as decoration. Therefore, unless something big happens (like a sudden CRS fad), the market will remain small.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Were not talking about the gradual devaluation of crs. Were talking about someone who sells his shrimp to another city at a premium price then dropping it 50-70% *overnight* claiming the reason is to "promote" new members when cleary it won't. Its like going to a dealership and buying a Lexus for $60,000 then in a month it's worth $20,000 with the dealer saying " hey don't worry about the price, just be happy everyone can now enjoy a Lexus. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I'm fine if the price of crs comes down bc that's the market trend.
But for a single person who says he's planning on dropping the price of SSS from $45 to $15 and crashing the market value here in Toronto, this will be the end result:
- few people in the hobby
- very low prices
- saturation

Look at cherries, they are so cheap but no one keeps them. Why? Low exposure and lack of experience.


----------



## msnikkistar (Sep 29, 2010)

The value of a lexus drops as soon as you drive it off the lot  

Hey, if I can get SSS+ CRS for 5 bucks a pop, I would be all over that like white on rice. Not gonna lie. lol


----------



## msnikkistar (Sep 29, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Look at cherries, they are so cheap but no one keeps them. Why? Low exposure and lack of experience.


What? No they are cheap because they breed like roaches, and a lot of people have them now. At least in the US. I can still sell them for 30 for $30 shipped too....

I have no idea why you think its because there is lack of experience or exposure in terms of RCS.

Let's say this person doesn't do it what you stated. I still don't understand your logic in your statements, taking out the dropping of prices. Are you wanting the expansion of the hobby or not? All I see is this repeated argument about keeping prices high. So let's take the "crashing" of the market out of the situation. How would a youtube video or lecture increase the consumer pool for shrimp? It may with a small population, but you won't break the threshold of having a large amount of people keeping shrimp until the prices fall. Which could take a few years with gradual drop downs because as stated before, 90% of people cant justify paying more then $10 a shrimp US or Canadian. So for those few years, you would want to be able to continue to "set pricing" high to benefit monetarily for it. So are you about the expansion of the hobby or money. Cause in my opinion, you are talking in a way I would in regards to my business, not as a hobbyist. I mean you are even discussing this with retailers, not other hobbyist. Why would you even talk to a retailer if you had the hobbyist at heart? That's an oxymoron in itself. Hobbyist want one thing, retailers want another. I am a retailer, you can't really hide what a retailer would want to me. Of course as a retailer, we want prices to stay as high as possible, for as long as possible. So are you a retailer, or a hobbyist? You say hobbyist, but you are bringing up retail based arguments.

So if you are 100% about the expansion of the hobby, then the monetary element shouldn't even be brought up into this factor at all. Because money aside, it should be about making shrimp more readily available to everyone, whatever financial situation they are in. Unemployed, students, people with budgets, at this rate will take YEARS before delving into SSS+ CRS/CBS or the like. I don't know about you, but I would want the love of shrimp keeping to reach EVERY corner of the market. I can succeed financially via my business with hard work, whether it be by selling more, or less. It doesn't matter to me. Like I said, my first love and priority will ALWAYS be the expansion of the hobby and to share the love of it with new people everyday. So what is your priority, money or that love?

To me, your argument wants to keep an elitism within the hobby is and is almost 100% based on monetary gain, which in turn will keep the hobby small. You can't have one and the other if you want to expand the market. And if there is a drop in price in one area, there will be a drop in price in another area. It's a domino affect.


----------



## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

I agree with msnikkistar. Just because unlike the CRS community, who post a lot of threads and videos about their tanks, the people who keep RCS dont post pics or videos about their RCS. This doesnt mean there are no one who keeps RCS.

I can safetly say, most people who keep plecos keep RCS in their tanks. If anything, I feel like a lot of the people who are into CRS now is because they got into shrimp keeping by setting up their first tank of cherries. Why did they start off with cherries? because they are cheap, easy to care for, and you dont need to buy special substrate or feed special foods and still enjoy them. But out of all of the reason, they are *CHEAP* is hands down the most important reason why a lot of people have them.

Anywho, in terms of the general public, people are much more willing to get into a hobby if there is a smaller investment. So if I was a person new to the hobby, I would much rather get some cheaper shrimp then spending $10 on a single shrimp.


----------



## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

I'm curious as to who this person is or where you heard the statement from about dropping the price of SSS from $45 to $15 and crashing the market value.

People say they're going to do this and that all the time. Never really see them after they talk their smack.

And if the prices do drop, their would only be an increase in hobbyists, not a decrease. That makes no sense whatsoever. You are correct on the low prices and saturation though... so what?

As a couple of members have already stated, it seems like you are attempting to keep the CRS side of the hobby as an elite operation. Elite always means a smaller group of people will be involved.

There's a reason why it's referred to as elite. Because not everyone can get in. You have opposing arguments and ideas.



CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Were not talking about the gradual devaluation of crs. Were talking about someone who sells his shrimp to another city at a premium price then dropping it 50-70% *overnight* claiming the reason is to "promote" new members when cleary it won't. Its like going to a dealership and buying a Lexus for $60,000 then in a month it's worth $20,000 with the dealer saying " hey don't worry about the price, just be happy everyone can now enjoy a Lexus. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
> 
> I'm fine if the price of crs comes down bc that's the market trend.
> But for a single person who says he's planning on dropping the price of SSS from $45 to $15 and crashing the market value here in Toronto, this will be the end result:
> ...


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm pretty sure a whole lot more people keep RCS than CRS....

When I was taking down my 16-gal RCS tank, my extra shrimps got sold in no time.

The thing is, when everybody has their own colony of RCS, then obviously they won't need to buy them again.


----------



## Beijing08 (Jul 19, 2010)

what's the main difference between option 2 and option 3?

what prevents option 2 from excluding option 3? Since both are set firm price, can we conclude that if one were to keep market price firm, we shouldn't be giving tutorials? 

IMO occasional sales(2) + tutorials(3) go hand in hand in terms of expanding the hobby. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

I've made my point as clear and as redundant as possible.

1) I talk to both retailers as friends not as a business. I've never made a single penny off of either of them. In fact there isn't even enough room for 2 stores b/c the toronto shrimp hobby is soo tiny.

2)If every shrimp member on GTA buys 10 cheap SSS, how does this grow the hobby? If you have say 99 people with crappy shrimps, and in a month you have 99 people with high grade shrimps, how did the hobby grow? wheres the new members? How can you grow something when the size stays the same? Something they repeatedly haven't addressed.

3)They did not address how lowering the price of SSS/SS grade shrimps relate to new members? If your new to shrimp keeping will you be more interested in A/S grades or SS/SSS grades? When I started I didn't even consider an SSS. God knows due to my lack of experience it would of died in a month.

4) Why was I the one spending those hours writing up those tutorials in the past few months. I did it b/c I enjoyed it and how many new members did I convenience to start keeping crs tanks? Alex Would you have bought CRS if it was 50% cheaper but didn't know much info about it?

Why do I have to gain by putting this much effort?
B/c I don't like the fact that my beautiful CRS which I brought in from Japan will drop by 50% overnight when the market won't even expand. It affects me and all of you who spent a small fortune buying CRS. And let me make this as clear as possible. *You can attract more members (expand) with cheap A/S grades and free samples of cherries with youtube tutorials and crs 101 tutorials VS selling SS/SSS CRS cheap which does not benefit the expansion but rather hurt it PERIOD* The reason why the hobby exploded in Asia is b/c the breeders all shared their techniques and kept the prices high which appealed to everyone. Can anyone say they we're not impressed the first time they heard a bbk was %400 or a jprl can sell for $2500? This is why most people find CRS so appealing. Will you impress someone and perhaps attract them into shrimp keeping by saying "hey This SSS is worth $5" or "hey this SSS is worth $50".

I admit my poll is somewhat bias but it stand true to the fact that lowering prices is *NOT THE MOST EFFICIENT* way to attracting new members. Which i thought was the goal here? isn't it?

If I had to guess why the sudden drop in price, it's probably b/c Tommy is now selling CRS from Taiwan and the competition is going to under cut him. As a result everyone else takes a hit including you, the reader. Thats the business aspect of it. The hobby aspect of it is that all your CRS will drop in value by 50%-70% overnight. But heck you shouldn't care about that. You should enjoy keeping them regardless of their value. I think every CRS keeper has fantasized about selling a few of their crs at some point. Unfortunately your SS is now worth $7 compared to $25 a few days ago.


----------



## Alexpatrascu (Jun 13, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> ..........
> 2)If every shrimp member on GTA buys 10 cheap SSS, how does this grow the hobby? If you have say 99 people with crappy shrimps, and in a month you have 99 people with high grade shrimps, how did the hobby grow? wheres the new members? How can you grow something when the size stays the same? Something they repeatedly haven't addressed.
> 
> 3)They did not address how lowering the price of SSS/SS grade shrimps relate to new members? If your new to shrimp keeping will you be more interested in A/S grades or SS/SSS grades? When I started I didn't even consider an SSS. God knows due to my lack of experience it would of died in a month.
> ...


I do see your point in 2) Jay.....by not making the CRS hobby more available through sharing infos and stuff, you just give the chance to the existing CRS breeders to get their hands on cheap "expensive CRS", which is just where we started....the expansion of the hobby is 0.

In 3) we get back to the info sharing point...if the newcomers don't know that higher grades are more demanding, then you'll end up with a bunch of people buying cheap "expensive CRS" and then throwing them in the garbage after 3-4 weeks cuz they have no clue what their suppose to offer to those CRS to be happy and well.

4) Actually I DID bought my first A/S grade 30 CRS from James two years ago cuz he gave me a great price....but after 3 weeks I only had 5 CRS in my low-tech tank....after 1 more week they were all gone....and no, I didn't think for a sec that I can keep higher grades(I knew the higher grades were more demanding)

And yes, I do think of selling some of my CRS when the aquarium is gonna be too crowded and I'll surely be irritated that the CRS I paid 25$ a couple months ago had some babies that are worth only 7-10$ now.

After I failed with my first CRS batch, I returned to the old RCS and stayed there till I had some more info on how to keep these beautiful CRS.

And it's true that I could've gone for a cheaper setup to keep my CRS but I decided that I wanna have a tank that I'll enjoy watching as a whole "system", not only the beautiful CRS.

And this is what I think it'll happen if you drop the CRS prices:
- you sell your stocks to the LFS
- they advertise it to every customer that comes in the shop..."we have now the beautiful CRS for such a low price every1 can have them !!"
- customer: "I never had these, are they easy to keep, are they like RCS ?!?"
- just to see his stock gone from his tank, the seller will not give out all the "vital" info to the "newbie" customer
- the newbie(me too a while ago) buys 20 of them cuz they're cheap and they're not too difficult to keep
- gets home and sees his 20 beautiful cheap CRS dieing one by one

Now there are two types of people at this point: one is gonna say "F.ck this sh!t, I just lost 50$ with these crappy CRS" and he's never gonna touch them again *AND* one that's gonna say "WTF happened to my CRS, it must be something I did wrong" and tries to get all the info on these CRS before starting again(I'm here)....and here's where you get them(me)...offering all the info that they need to see that CRS are not *THAT* difficult to keep....like Frank said, a CRS setup in not a fortune....


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

The ideal situation is to introduce a lot of new members. This will keep demand high and prices stable. 

Now if your a professional breeders, you prefer this situation.

However Toronto currently is not the case. We have low demand, so as a breeder what do you do with all your SSS/SS which aren't selling?

Drop the price and liquidate them. Doesn't matter if you lower the market price by say 60% because you would of sold your stock first, which will continue to drop after the sale is over. The demand is so low that repeat business won't really be an issue at that point. There's the motive.


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> B/c I don't like the fact that my beautiful CRS which I brought in from Japan will drop by 50% overnight when the market won't even expand.


FINALLY, your admitting your true intentions of the your thread. Now that wasn't so hard was it? and who said i or whoever was lowering prices of SS and SSS? or how much they were lowering it for? where did you get this 50% number?

don't answer because bickering about this is futile, because in the end a hobbyist/ breeder can sell shrimp at whatever price they want whether it be for free or $1. If you don't find it right or not in support of it then just don't buy it and buy the whatever price as you choose and sell at whatever price as you choose. You can't force people to set prices.

As for your guess on tommy and undercutting? I thought you didn't talk to them in terms of business so how would you know about pricing and why would you be so concerned about it? But i'll let him talk to you about that. And talk to Sam from AI. I just spoke to him.


----------



## mr_bako (Dec 23, 2010)

*business talk*



CrystalMethShrimp said:


> If I had to guess why the sudden drop in price, it's probably b/c Tommy is now selling CRS from Taiwan and the competition is going to under cut him. As a result everyone else takes a hit including you, the reader.


Jay, where the hell did u get this info that i am selling taiwanese shrimp.
I have no investment or hands on taiwanese shipment and the only shrimp i've imported are from shrimplab. So please do not just blab everything out online, people will *MISINTERPRET *what you are saying and you are only hurting your own rep here. And even if the competition is going to undercut me, everyone is going to suffer including the one who undercuts.

And jay, i do not think you should have such a heavy opinion on this industry and telling people what to do. You are only a hobbyist. Dont get me wrong I heavily agree we should hold promotions for A/S grades to get people into the hobby, and to be honest.
50/50 of the people who keep CRS enjoy low grades and high grades. Some people specifically ask for A/S grades because they like the color pattern compared to being solid white with little bit of red.

What we need is not to give free shrimp away, which me and Frank J have done before to promote to close people to captivate their interests and they will automatically promote the shrimp to their close friends also thus creating a long chain of interested shrimp keepers in the future. Plant seeds, harvest later.

What I believe is that the *hobbyist should go to reputable retailers that keep shrimp to learn how to keep shrimp* instead of going to big chain stores to get advice on keeping shrimp. *I've had clients come to me telling me people from a well known chain store telling them that while on vacation just dump a whole load of brine shrimp inside to keep them fed until you come back. Result? The whole tank of CRS died before he even came back.*

So if people really want to learn how to keep shrimp, I am more then happy to teach and show them how it is possible to keep CRS low and high grades successfully. But only if we can show people where to get correct advice instead of just guesses on how to keep shrimp alive. So they can stop spending their money @ those big chain stores and keep killing their shrimp and lose interest in keeping them. And the stigma of high grades CRS are harder to keep them low grades is complete BS to me.

And price dropping is a natural cycle of economics with everything once items are able to be mass produced, isnt it? What is it you want Jay? To breed your shrimp and sell it back out to profit? Be honest here.

Anything else?


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Ebi-Ken said:


> FINALLY, your admitting your true intentions of the your thread. Now that wasn't so hard was it? and who said i or whoever was lowering prices of SS and SSS? or how much they were lowering it for? where did you get this 50% number?
> 
> don't answer because bickering about this is futile, because in the end a hobbyist/ breeder can sell shrimp at whatever price they want whether it be for free or $1. If you don't find it right or not in support of it then just don't buy it and buy the whatever price as you choose and sell at whatever price as you choose. You can't force people to set prices.
> 
> As for your guess on tommy and undercutting? I thought you didn't talk to them in terms of business so how would you know about pricing and why would you be so concerned about it? But i'll let him talk to you about that. And talk to Sam from AI. I just spoke to him.


LOL Frank your the one who typed selling $45 crs for $15 in a previous msn conversation with me. Want me to pull it up?

In terms of Tommy, he didn't have to tell me a thing. In fact we haven't spoken all week. I didn't understand at first but eventually I figured out the motive. It's pretty obvious now b/c the reasons for dropping prices had some holes.

I told you from the beginning that you can sell it for whatever you want, you have control over market price here in Toronto b/c you have the inventory.

I admitted my intentions. Just waiting for you to admit yours. 
Obviously I'd be disturbed by this as many members who will be effected will share the same displeasure. But if your deciding not to lower the price on SS/SSS by 30% or more then I support your decision. I will do fair reviews on the thread for where to buy the best quality/value CRS and the people have the freedom to choose. Sam and Tommy are both good friends so you know I can't be bias.

All I can do now is continue the tutorial thread and maybe create some HD youtube vidoes and some live shows at AI, to attract more members. Hopefully we can get a higher demand by the end of this year


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> LOL Frank your the one who typed selling $45 crs for $15 in a previous msn conversation with me. Want me to pull it up?


LOL with tommy's reply but hey 1 thing, where did you get SSS for $45 I never came up with that. Check my old sale posts and see what my price of SSS was. Brian bought SSS from me 20 for 18 and even he isn't complaining. $18- $15 can anyone see a problem with that for the sake of promoting? I never said anything about $45 that was just you that made that number. But anyways, my intentions are clear and even tommy see's that as well. PS, talk to Sam

ok just to add: this thread is clearly being based on your disagreement with me. Me going on here is because you just so happen to post a non neutral thread with my name on it. If you wanna blabber on, message me on msn. Also I just checked the history. I never stated that $45 anywhere on msn so stop making things up. I have every right to express myself the way it is. If you hadn't used my name and directed the thread towards me I wouldn't be saying this.


----------



## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

I highly doubt anyone interested in keeping these will complain about a price drop.

Anyways, keep the rest of the thread nice and clean fellas.


----------



## mr_bako (Dec 23, 2010)

*pricings*

RETAIL PRICING

C/B less then 8
A are between 9-11
S are between 10-12$
SS are between 15-22$
SSS are between 25-35$
SSS+ are between 40-60$

and all this depends on coloration strength, and patterns.
and promotions can range from buy 4 get 1 free 
or between 15-25% off.

JUST TO MAKE THINGS CLEAR.


----------



## mr_bako (Dec 23, 2010)

*Promoting hobby*

The best way to promote this hobby is to provide *CORRECT ADVICE* on shrimp keeping and show them where to get it.

And probably create a GTA SHRIMP CLUB,

WHOS IN?!

Simple enough?

And free shrimp, how come frank's never RAOK my ass  *sarcastically*


----------



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

mr_bako said:


> And free shrimp, how come frank's never RAOK my ass  *sarcastically*


lol because of the first word of RAOK, random lol.

I think a club is an excellent　idea. In vancouver, we host the same thing where its more like breeders and we try out free things and get opinions on it. We also sometimes have trades within the group to mix up the lines. The best form of sharing is sharing and communicating is still face to face.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

mr_bako said:


> Jay, where the hell did u get this info that i am selling taiwanese shrimp.
> I have no investment or hands on taiwanese shipment and the only shrimp i've imported are from shrimplab.


Well Tommy like I said, it's a guess. A hypothesis. psssssshhhhhhh 

I didn't say you *are* selling China/Japan/Indonesia/taiwan shrimps. I said my guess would be that's why Frank is cutting prices. Sorry I put words in your mouth dude.
It was a tad far fetched but it was the only reason I could think of.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

This thread is locked for the time being, it is obvious that this thread, and related threads are more about personal opinions and vendetta's than about furthering any discussion on shrimp.

This forum is supposed to be one of those outlets that everyone speaks of in this thread. The forum is free in every sense - no advertising, no memberships, but it is supposed to further the hobby not brood business resentment between people who are obviously more commercially involved in the discussion than they are to really creating a learning atmosphere.

Sorry, if you have any problems you can PM me, but until this thread is reviewed it will remain locked. I haven't locked the "other thread", but will not hesitate to do so should this conversation migrate over to there.


----------

