# Efficient insump pump



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Hello all.

Im looking for a power efficient insump pump, which matched the flow chart of mag 24. 

any Ideas ? where can I get Red dragon pumps ? 

thanks.


----------



## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Have you considered an ATB flowstar? Maybe an 1800 or 3200 depending on your application. I'd contact ATB (http://www.atbskimmers.com/contact.php) to see if you can get their flow curves from them.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

oh those are nice !!! thank you I emailed them.
I think Im gonna give beckett skimemrs a shot .. se how things go, 

they recommend a BL55 which consumes 180 Watts !! 1100 GPH pressure rated ! does that mean 1100 GPH doesnt matter the height ?


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

I better unload my mag24 before you find a replacement....lol j/k

Have you asked SUM Ken if he can bring in a RD pump for you?


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

gucci17 said:


> I better unload my mag24 before you find a replacement....lol j/k
> 
> Have you asked SUM Ken if he can bring in a RD pump for you?


I will have to ask him again, I dont really understand the pressure rated term, not sure what it means, and he said u need one of those lol

I emailed MRC and they say the internal replacement is MAG 24, but still not that strong, so ....

MAG24 have over 200 watt power consumption though !! you are using one ? how is the noise ? do you have any Idea on what eh difference would be in monthly electricity bill with like a pump that is 100W more ? Im Guessing a couple bucks a month, but cant figure it out lol

thanks


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Big Ray said:


> I will have to ask him again, I dont really understand the pressure rated term, not sure what it means, and he said u need one of those lol
> 
> I emailed MRC and they say the internal replacement is MAG 24, but still not that strong, so ....
> 
> ...


lol ok, I thought you were using one that's why you were asking. I guess I don't have to sell mine right away.

I thought pressure rated pumps are required for lots of head pressure. Don't quote me as I am not well versed in pumps.

What internal replacement is a mag24?

I used to use a mag24 on a central system for freshwater. I couldn't tell you the monthly bill because I did not pay for the hydro bills at the time I was using it. It was used in my parent's house and it wasn't that noisy. The thing is, the entire fish room was pretty noisy so that's not very accurate. I can plug it in when I go home and see how bad it is. You can probably count on it being and extra $5-$10 a month seeing how it will be running 24/7.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

hmm thank you.

5-10 bucks a month isnt much to spend 500 on getting a better pump ! lol

I guess I should just drill the sump and use a BL55 for my return and another for my skimmer. I really dont like extra holes, but guess that's the only option I have at this time


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

No problem. I wouldn't be too concerned about running an inline pump. I would use a short piece of flexible tubing to connect to your pump though. That way you don't have to worry about it not being exactly level with your sump and cutout some vibrations.


----------



## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

You need the pressure rated pump as you have to overcome the back pressure from the beckett to get it to work properly. 

Depending on how much the pump is actually moving, it might not be consuming 200 watts - the higher the head pressure, the lower the draw. I think most pumps are rated at 0' head pressure so that when you hook it up you'll find that it's actually drawing less.


----------



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

BL55HD is 90w @0' .

There are a few differences mainly due to rotation of the impeller. With external pumps, the rotation is unidirectional, which is an important feature for impellers that are to be used in a pressure rate situation. With the curved blade and unidirectional spin, it can push water "harder" than conventional straight bladed impellers and have higher head height.

http://www.bigalsonline.com/Mag-Drive-Impeller_7768065_82.html

Typical pressure rated impeller:
http://www.akis.itu.edu.tr/research/radialfan.htm
http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=18948&cat=1209&bestseller

For Beckett/venturi and downdraft skimmers, pressure rated (biased) pumps are recommended as one has to consider the physical nature of how they work. Beckett/venturi the diameter of the orface prior to the air port is greatly reduced. As water passes through the restriction, the pathway increases and this process draws air into the Becket/venturi.

Downdrafts force water down a column of bioballs where the stream of water is split many, many, many times, incorporating air onto the inccoming water at the end. If you've seen the ETSS skimmers, the bioball chamber is quite tall compared to the body.

Keep in mind that these styles of skimmers are significantly noisier than NW driven skimmers and overall draw more power. I only recommend Beckett/downdraft skimmers for systems larger then 400gals, dedicated fish room and high-bioload systems.

JME/2C

ADD: I've used Mag 24's and 36's...noisy (REALLY hummy), though the impeller torque is really strong, the on/off is rough on the impeller housing that the top of the shaft is centred on and, IME, break within a year of monthly servicing.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

thank you ameek and Wtac  not I get what is going on !!!

with Zeovit, a Beckett skimmer is recommended, they say since it pulls out less trace elements (K+ for example) 

I was originally gonna go with Vertex Alpha kone 200. (on about 150-180G of water which will be sitting in my living room, in my 600 SQ ft condo, I guess I can call the whole thing a fish room  haha) but all Zeoheads I have spoken to on Zeovit.com advice me against it and to use beckett instead !!! and looking at ppls Zeovit tanks, they do get much better colors using beckett. and knowing myself, for some unknown reasons I cant keep my tank stocked correctly, I have to have a high bioload  lol

I can get a MR2 and a BL55 for like 300 so its worth a try ... even if I decide to sell it and go with vertex after a while, I dont think ID loose too much.

90W isnt that bad, (well compared to 38W for RD pumps it is but still  ) but now Im thinking about the noise !! Wtac, what if I pull the air line of the skimmer outside to the balcony or something ? would that eliminate the noise ? or is it the skimmer itself making the noise ? I guess the pump will make some noise too, but I can place some stuff under it to eliminate the noise ? hmm due to small space, its hard to imagine, as if the noise is alot then even neighbors could complain  (besides having 180 G of water over their heads  hahah)


thank you all again.


----------



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

One thing that I like about Becketts is the amount of water it process and in turn, heavily aerates the water. The noise is mainly from the air intake...it's quite the sucking sound!!! From other's experience w/Becketts that went NW, they have found that ORP drops and switched back. 

What I've done for an client is create a muffler for the air intake.

You can unscrew the cap off the air valve and, IIRC, is a 1/2" male threaded fitting. Use a female adapter (coupler w/slip-thread) or 90* slip-thraded and screw that on. Put on a reducing fitting and get to a 2" fitting. At Lowes you can get an ABS 4"-2" reducer. Configure it overall to fit in the alotted space with whatever fittings/pipe you need. Pack with open cell foam, ~30ppi (pores/in) and that did the trick from a loud sucking sound to a low gurgle. I hope you can envision what I'm explaining.

You can try attaching tubing to lead outside but you'll be reducing the air draw port from 1/4" to 1/8" and factor in the length used, you will dramatically reduce air draw.

HTH

ADD:From what you are mentioning from ZeoVit, it doesn't really make sense to me as with skimmers, it's all about incorporating air into the water. With Becketts and downdrafts, in essence it's quite a harsh/aggressive process compared to NW. I've heard it before but never really though much about it. Have a link? I'm curious


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

wtac said:


> One thing that I like about Becketts is the amount of water it process and in turn, heavily aerates the water. The noise is mainly from the air intake...it's quite the sucking sound!!! From other's experience w/Becketts that went NW, they have found that ORP drops and switched back.
> 
> What I've done for an client is create a muffler for the air intake.
> 
> ...


haha thank you 

the zeovit thing, I dont get neither, but here I tried to get some info out of bob, and couldnt lol

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21759

(let me know if you think there is a better way of asking to understand more, but I think only Thomas Pohl knows what is going on.)

I will have to reread the configuration for the air intake when I have one in front of me to get it better, Im sure I will have more questions to ask you soon 

thanks again

and on revolution skimmers, from KZ, cone and beckett,http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9265


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Lots of interesting info in this thread! I like!


----------



## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

OT here, but is the argument that pinwheel/needlewheels are just too efficient for the zeoheads?


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> OT here, but is the argument that pinwheel/needlewheels are just too efficient for the zeoheads?


Efficient as of what is the question !

efficient on removing surface active organics ? I think beckets do better. they also remove more junk (more air and more contact time)

efficient on removing trace elements like K+ (kalium or potassium) then yes

with my ER RS 80, I have to dose K+ twice a week to keep it stable, and just like other trace elements, the more stable the better. now thats the only thing we can test for, we dont know about other traces. I also dose Iron, iodine, floride and ....

I have seen Huge improvements and have spoken to many Zeoheads which say this when even changing BK skimmers to becketts ! but cant not pin point exactly what it is, maybe extra oxygen ? maybe elements, maybe more junk removal ? no Idea lol


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

wtac said:


> One thing that I like about Becketts is the amount of water it process and in turn, heavily aerates the water. The noise is mainly from the air intake...it's quite the sucking sound!!! From other's experience w/Becketts that went NW, they have found that ORP drops and switched back.
> 
> What I've done for an client is create a muffler for the air intake.
> 
> ...


hello, another question, ure the only person I know that has used thse guys  for about 150-180 G of water, would I be fine with a MRC MR1 ? 
just to reduce the noise level a bit


----------



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Going smaller means smaller driving pump which translates to less air going into the Beckett injector...less air, less sucking noise .

If you have noticed w/Beckett skimmers, ie MRCs, the injectors and housing are exactly the same, the difference is the body to match the rate of water going through the injector.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

wtac said:


> Going smaller means smaller driving pump which translates to less air going into the Beckett injector...less air, less sucking noise .
> 
> If you have noticed w/Beckett skimmers, ie MRCs, the injectors and housing are exactly the same, the difference is the body to match the rate of water going through the injector.


thank you 

MR2 is rated for 400 G so I guess MR1 would work for my new system just well.

Went to SUM and asked ken to show me his running and well you couldnt hear it working over his other stuff  but late at night in my living room Im sure will be a different story lol
right now I runa ER skimmer, and MP40 is the major noise, will this be mopre noise then MP40 ? I guess


----------



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

The BL40HD is pretty quiet and will have less vibrational resonance than the ER's Sedra and MP40 combined. Keep in mind, if there are any openings on the cabinet, the sound will resonate out of any openings. 

It's all about muffling the air intake going this route


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

wtac said:


> The BL40HD is pretty quiet and will have less vibrational resonance than the ER's Sedra and MP40 combined. Keep in mind, if there are any openings on the cabinet, the sound will resonate out of any openings.
> 
> It's all about muffling the air intake going this route


thank you Mr. Wilson  really appreciate it


----------



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

NP BR, just call me Wilson...Mr Wilson (Shawn Wilson) is another person with a great wealth of knowledge and skill. He's well known on other forums...don't want to get us confused


----------

