# Advice needed: stange dessise or strange fish



## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

Hi Guys

I was asking about this issue(s) before and I'll try to ask again with more info.
Again in my tank I discovered some guppies (both males and females) with badly ripped tales (my favorite red cobra male lost half of the tale and other one became white). What is strange is that I did not add a new fish for a while but a few weeks ago noticed that from my guppy fries I'm getting more males than females and my females are overwhelmed. So I added a few healthy female guppies from a friend who had it for a while. Almost immediately I started to loose my females and some males. But lately discovered that some guppy tales are ripped before they die. I had same thing before but this time I do not have any aggressive fish. In my planted 30gl tank I have: school of rummy nose tetras, school of neons (or what ever left of it as I discovered them with ripped tales as well) school of razboras, school of white cloud mounten minnows 1 female platty (couple of corries and plecos) and use to have 4 adults guppy males and 3 females, added 5 more females and now bunch of fries, different ages, mostly males for older ones. Now I'm down to 3 females (one golden, big one keep giving me babies and not touched, two other ones looked scared and have ripped tales) and 2 original males (one died a few weeks ago from the 4 I had and one now has half a tale and I don't think will last long What I don't understand is that all my fish has been in the tank for almost a year before I added those 5 females guppies. Also before one of them died she had a flat stomach (looks like parasites) and I put her in separate container. When she died she looked like she has been badly beaten and it was no other fish in that container. I tested my water as well with API Master kit and my readings are perfect with no ammonia in it. So Now I have no Idea if I have some type of strange parasites or other desise or some fish became aggressive due to new guppies on the block. Any help is appreciated.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

thinking maybe fin rot, not sure how to treat it. Might also have some kind of parasite added in.

It doesn't look good at all.

Hopefully someone can give tips.


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

pyrrolin said:


> thinking maybe fin rot, not sure how to treat it. Might also have some kind of parasite added in.
> 
> It doesn't look good at all.
> 
> Hopefully someone can give tips.


It looks to me that that I have some kind of environmental balance in the tank and when it going out of balance by adding fish or so this stuff start to happen.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I remember you asking about this before. Given that you don't have any aggressive species, and it's been awhile since the problem last occurred, but it's in the same tank, if it were me I think I would start another tank, fresh, and not use anything from the current tank in it. Certainly not the filter bacteria, in case the problem organism is in the filter.

I'd set up a bare tank, basically a hospital tank. As soon as it is cycled, put the damaged fish in it as quickly as you can. Leave the others where they are but watch to see if any more show signs of the problem. If they do, put them in QT too. Meantime, in the hospital tank, I'd use something like Indian Almond leaves, which have natural antibacterial properties, and do more frequent water changes.

If it's a bacterial infection of some kind, isolating the damaged fish should help to stop it spreading. It could be something that's been in the tank for some time, and for some reason now it's attacking the fish who are most susceptible, and spreading from one to another as time goes by.

I have no experience using fish antibiotics, but if the tails are torn, they certainly can become infected, possibly with a secondary organism that makes it even harder on their immune systems. But without knowing what type of bacteria it may be, I don't know what antibiotic might work. Perhaps a combination of one that works on gram negative and one that works on gram positive infections. 

But using something antibacterial might help. Indian Almond leaf is the only thing I've used myself, and since it's from a plant it is one I think is fairly safe, so it's the only thing I can recommend from my own experience. Either place a few leaves in the tank and replace them as they start to fall apart or make a strong tea of them and use that with every water change and for topping up. I'd think two or three good size leaves to a gallon of water, steeped at room temperature for a couple of days, if you want to use the tea method. I used a cupful per WC in a 2.5 G tank.. so adjust that for tank size.

I have also found green tea to be somewhat helpful.. I would pour a quarter cup of tea that was left over after a day in a 2.5 G tank, you can adjust that for tank size. It's not antibacterial but has a number of compounds in it that are supportive of the immune system and antioxidants, which are beneficial to fish as well to humans. It can't hurt & the tannins released from green tea have similar benefits to other types of tannins in 'black water' habitats.

With any luck, the fish that are still ok may not have any more problems. With a little more luck the fish you quarantine may recover. I sure hope so. I'd try for some filter rinsings or old media from someone else with a healthy tank or if you have another tank that's ok, use that, to seed the new filter.

Many of the bacterial problems in fish are opportunistic, so they're always present in the water, but we don't know it unless a fish is weak or ill, or is injured. The bacteria then have an opportunity to overwhelm the immune system, which is why they're called opportunistic infections. Fish can usually fight these off, but injury or weakness or constant attack can get by the immune system, and the more fish who are affected, the more likely it will continue to spread to new fish. Quarantine is the only thing I can think of that may help the sick ones, and hopefully stop the remainder from becoming affected.

Don't know where you are.. if you're anywhere near I'd give you filter rinsings to start a new filter. If the QT fish start to improve, then maybe you need to tear down the tank and start it over too, the aim would be to greatly reduce the amount of whatever is causing this. Depending on how extensive the tears in the fins are, it could take quite a long time before they heal and regrow. If they start to get better you should see new tissues beginning to show on the torn fin edges. It may be white in colour, but fresh new tissue is a good sign.

If you do tear down the tank, I'd sanitize the substrate or replace it.. sanitize the glass too. I would think the plants could be thoroughly rinsed and used again, maybe soak them in a bucket for a few days with light and air, do a few WCs before putting them back, maybe even soak them in Almond leaf tea for a bit. I doubt the cause of this is living on plants, but better safe than sorry. Sanitize the filter too before you restart it.. toss all the old media. Don't use any of the old water from the original tank. Healthy fish, hopefully, should not be too badly stressed by the change to what is essentially a brand new tank and if the damaged ones recover, putting them into a clean new tank seems more likely to help them stay healthy.

I think if you leave it as it is, this is only going to continue, perhaps until most of the fish are affected. Doing the QT or a tank tear down is a lot of work for sure, but it beats watching the fish die one by one. Wish you luck.


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

Here are pictures of affected fish


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

what is your PH at? what foods do you feed them? and Which other fishes has this clear fin symptom?


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

xriddler said:


> what is your PH at? what foods do you feed them? and Which other fishes has this clear fin symptom?


My PH is 7-7.2
Food diet: Omega one flakes one a day and freeze dried blood worms one a week
None other fish has this but before I noticed that some of my neons had ripped tales (some complete removed) all of those neons died and I only have 4 left or so.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

neons were probably harassed by white clouds. My white clouds do chase my cardinals and when my cardinals were younger they had some ripped tails when they couldnt out run my white clouds. I think you need to vary your diet a bit more. Are the omega one flakes mostly protein? Fish are omnivores and having some veggies in the diet helps alot. try some veggie flakes like HBH or from sugarglider or angelfins spirulina foods. I feed my fish four different foods one day of tetra flakes (just to put some bad food in them), then i alternate hbh veggie flakes and NLS pellets then maybe two a week i feed them bloodworms. 

From what i read on the forum they could be malnutritioned. the lost of colour is caused by stress. Of course this is just a theory cause maybe they really might have parasites as there are many many different things that can make fish sick.


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

xriddler said:


> neons were probably harassed by white clouds. My white clouds do chase my cardinals and when my cardinals were younger they had some ripped tails when they couldnt out run my white clouds. I think you need to vary your diet a bit more. Are the omega one flakes mostly protein? Fish are omnivores and having some veggies in the diet helps alot. try some veggie flakes like HBH or from sugarglider or angelfins spirulina foods. I feed my fish four different foods one day of tetra flakes (just to put some bad food in them), then i alternate hbh veggie flakes and NLS pellets then maybe two a week i feed them bloodworms.
> 
> From what i read on the forum they could be malnutritioned. the lost of colour is caused by stress. Of course this is just a theory cause maybe they really might have parasites as there are many many different things that can make fish sick.


Interesting. I also have one more type of omega one flakes and 3 different types of tetra flakes. Let's mixes them all and feed my fish nice mix. May be this is the problem. I also have frozen blood worms I probably should add to the diet. You probably right this could the issue. I also have done 40-50 % water change today and added aloe to the water. Let's see if this will help as well.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I strongly recommend NOT adding any more fish until the problem has been gone for at least a month.

If all the fish end up dieing you will want to sterilize the tank, clean everything with bleach, toss out all filter media, bleach the inside of the filter. Substrate you can probably clean with bleach to, depending on the type, worth a try at least. Plants you can put in a diluted bleach solution for 2 to 5 min, when you take them out, rinse well and then put in a container with some declorinator to remove any bleach left on them. Also, when setting the tank back up, use double dechlorinator to help make sure any bleach is gone, let tank and stuff completely dry before setting up again also.

With luck you can fix this problem and save some fish, but now you have some steps in case you have a full crash and have to restart.


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

pyrrolin said:


> I strongly recommend NOT adding any more fish until the problem has been gone for at least a month.
> 
> If all the fish end up dieing you will want to sterilize the tank, clean everything with bleach, toss out all filter media, bleach the inside of the filter. Substrate you can probably clean with bleach to, depending on the type, worth a try at least. Plants you can put in a diluted bleach solution for 2 to 5 min, when you take them out, rinse well and then put in a container with some declorinator to remove any bleach left on them. Also, when setting the tank back up, use double dechlorinator to help make sure any bleach is gone, let tank and stuff completely dry before setting up again also.
> 
> With luck you can fix this problem and save some fish, but now you have some steps in case you have a full crash and have to restart.


Let's hope I do not need to restart as in this case I basically will dis mental this tank.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Let's hope it doesn't come to that


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

Just an update: I separated affected fish (on the picture) yesterday. Male is already dead and female not as active as use to be but the white stuff on her body became much smaller.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Sorry to hear the guppy has died.

There is a type of bacterial infection I have read about, though it was quite some time ago. One of the symptoms of this infection can be torn looking fins. I'd have to try to find the article I read again to see if mentions what kind of organism causes it. 

If this is what you have going on, antibiotics would be the only treatment with a chance of working, either to cure any remaining sick fish, or to kill off the organism in the tank and prevent any more fish from getting it. 

If you do decide to treat the tank with antibiotics, they'll likely kill all the bacteria in the tank, which would include the biofilm and filter bacteria. So you'd end up having to start the tank over anyway. Might be less work to tear it down and sanitize ? Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

Fishfur said:


> Sorry to hear the guppy has died.
> 
> So you'd end up having to start the tank over anyway. Might be less work to tear it down and sanitize ? Keeping my fingers crossed.


As I mentioned before this is not an option. I've invested over $500 in this tank and if all fish will die I'll just dismental the tank


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

ppaskova said:


> As I mentioned before this is not an option. I've invested over $500 in this tank and if all fish will die I'll just dismental the tank


$500 dollars for a 30g tank is quite reasonable. I have spent over $250 for just a ten gallon. Sometimes things take a bad turn i have thrown away many melted plants and dead fish. It is unavoidable in this hobby, if you give up with one hiccup that was a wasted $500 cause you really didn't know if you learned anything if you don't try again. Second time could be the charm besides you have all the equipment, substrate and fertz. all you need to do is buy plants and fish again after sanitizing your tank.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I can understand how discouraging it must be to have this happen. But it does not have to be the end. When I was in school, my 30G tank became infested with leeches. They were just disgusting and there were hundreds of them. They stood in the gravel, waving their heads, trying to catch fish to snack on.. a couple of fish were damaged and died, either from the wound or being fed on.

I dismantled that tank 3 times to work on this problem. Boiled the gravel, boiled the rocks. Bleached the tank. Fish lived in a bucket for a day while I did it each time. Eventually, I replaced the gravel, just to make sure no eggs could hatch again. I was just a high school student at the time with very little money. In the end it cost me very little but time and effort, and the two dead fish of course.

Was it a lot of work ? yes. Was it worth it ? yes.. Otherwise, I'd have had to give away or destroy all the fish, and the tank would have sat empty and useless with the gravel and rocks, a wasted investment.

If antibiotics can cure the problem, they will do most of the work for you. All you'll need is to reseed the filter, and if you do that, the tank will cycle within days and be ok to have new fish in. The biofilm will grow again, just as it did before.

And if there are not many fish, you could cycle it with them still in it with a reseeded filter. Maybe a few exra WCs at first, but so long as the filter gets a good dose of media or rinsings from another one, which I'm sure someone would give you [I would, if you are close enough], you'd only have to wait a short time before you add new fish. No bleaching, no boiling. If the antibiotics kill the organism, then you're good to start again with very little work to do beyond seed a new filter and let it become established, and some WCs while that's happening.

For the price of antibiotic treatment, I'd want to try it to salvage the remaining fish and the tank itself.


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## ppaskova (Apr 27, 2010)

Second update: Lost affected female as well. Also lost one more female from the same batch. From original batch one female and two males left and a lot of fries ages 2 days to few months (mostly males). In the past 2-3 weeks I lost 9 guppies (2 males, 7 females), 1 laser corry, 2-3 yonge neons (they wore too small in the first place), one one rummy nose tetra. The biggest lose in 6 months. The only bigger lose I had was most of my 20 guppies in few weeks about 8 months ago from the same thing. So let's wait what will happen next. It looks to me that my tank has a life of it's own. It gets to the particular amount and type of fish and I have very little death in few months. After if I add a few more it goes out of control until it stabilizes itself again. Very strange


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