# New exhibit at Toronto Zoo



## Crumbs

If you guys didnt hear the news the Toronto Zoo is opening up its new Stingray petting pool which opens on May 16.

http://torontozoo.com/specialevents/stingray.asp


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## Ciddian

Everyone is still pretty P'od about those reindeer... I wonder how well it will do.

I love touch pools... wish it could stay..


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## fishlover93

wait so the touch pool is going to be just this year and after october its gone forever?


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## jrs

Cool, I am taking a busload up to the Zoo at the end of the month. I just arranged it and didn't even bother looking at the special events.

What is with the reindeer??????????????


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## Pablo

That is BULLSH*T

Zoos are for looking at immaculately cared for animals -- eheim-- Toronto zoo... With your sucky fish keeping...

Setting something up where you can 'pet' stingrays, which, no doubt, love to be petted.... just idiotic...


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## KnaveTO

I have to agree... something for the kids with sticky gummed up hands to stick their hands into and... well we don't need to go there but you all get where I am going.

I went swimming with stingrays in the Carribean a few yeas back and even before they allow you in the water you have to take a shower with just water and you have to make sure to use a scrubbie to try and remove any solutions, etc. from your skin before going in the water... especially on your hands as you can feed them. I seriously doubt the zoo will be going that far or anywhere near that level of caution.


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## Crumbs

Petting pools have had great success at many public aquariums. I think the most important part about petting pools is breaking old misconceptions about sharks and rays all being killers and more importantly giving people the opportunity to take a liking to them. Sure it presents husbandry issues with toxins from peoples hands and additional stress from the public but the benefits outweigh the negatives.


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## Windowlicka

Pablo said:


> Zoos are for looking at immaculately cared for animals -- eheim-- Toronto zoo... With your sucky fish keeping...


"EHEIM"?!?!?

"EFREM"?

"AHEM"?!?

  

Excuse me while I clear my throat <eheim>. Thank you.


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## Pablo

Windowlicka said:


> "EHEIM"?!?!?
> 
> "EFREM"?
> 
> "AHEM"?!?
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me while I clear my throat <eheim>. Thank you.


I don't follow. That's how I clear my throat.

Some times I say EFREM... some time EHEIM...


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## Pablo

KnaveTO said:


> I have to agree... something for the kids with sticky gummed up hands to stick their hands into and... well we don't need to go there but you all get where I am going.
> 
> I went swimming with stingrays in the Carribean a few yeas back and even before they allow you in the water you have to take a shower with just water and you have to make sure to use a scrubbie to try and remove any solutions, etc. from your skin before going in the water... especially on your hands as you can feed them. I seriously doubt the zoo will be going that far or anywhere near that level of caution.


The bottom line is that it's disrespectful to the animals. It makes them into some kind of pseudo stuffed animal... I think this does quite the opposite of drawing respect out of kids.

96% of kids are going to be scumbags with regards to their treatment of and attitude toward animals, usually because they are scumbag spawn... the other 4% are going to go the route they go regardless of petting pools and the like...

it just further reduces the quality of the zoo... which is getting hard to believe because its basically a giant toilet bowl with a really great gorilla exhibit at this point.


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## Ciddian

this is a traveling display... I don't really know if the zoo with have much to do with the thing other than hosting space for it.

I think its a wonderful idea... for responsible people...just like how diving can be done right as well. There are rules you follow and hopefully there are people there to enforce them.

I think this is a great idea.. for kids to see these animals face to face and touch them. Most of us have not seen or will ever see something like this with our own eyes. The stingrays need to shake their bad name and been seen in a much better light and with more respect.

If that means teaching one person at a time by this type of interaction then so be it i think...


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## Pablo

Personally I feel this is such bullshit, I can comfortably just say "That's bullshit" and feel confident in not even having to back that up...


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## gunnerx

They had a petting area for Stingrays at the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. It was pretty cool when I was there.


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## Pablo

gunnerx said:


> They had a petting area for Stingrays at the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas. It was pretty cool when I was there.


Casino's promote gluttony and ignorance. Zoo's promote conservation and knowledge.

The petting zoo BELONGS at the casino... see my point?


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## Crumbs

Pablo, I think the only bullshit is your negative attitude. It would be much better for the rays to have a permanent home but for what ever reason which we are unaware of, the Toronto Zoo can only house a temporary exhibit. Before you go off flaming away, how about you go down to the exhibit and check it out for yourself. Then you can lay down your judgment.

Rays can be trained. It is a fact. They can become accustomed to petting, handling and even transportation. I trust that the people operating the exhibit are professionals and do operate the exhibit ethically and provide enough chemical, biological and mechanical filtration to keep water levels within an exceptable range with.

You can not just give up on mankind and say everyone is an idiot so forget trying to educate anyone. Kids are the future and this is an opportunity for alot of kids to see rays for the first time. Education and pressuring governments to change fishing regulations has worked in the past so why give up on it now? Instead maybe a couple of classes will do a class project and send in some letters- making a difference.

I think that exhibits like this should work hand in hand with organizations such as http://www.seashepherd.org/ http://www.savingsharks.com/ but it has to start somewhere. And the purpose of this is education and conservation, not "gluttony and ignorance"


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## Crumbs

Pablo said:


> That is BULLSH*T
> 
> Zoos are for looking at immaculately cared for animals -- eheim-- Toronto zoo... With your sucky fish keeping...


Are you referring to the Toronto Zoo's fish keeping or my own? I have not bin there in 10 years.


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## fishlover93

i have to agree with crumbs because i think that the zoo wouldn't put a display of animals with loads of information had they not taken good care of them. I also don't know why you're being so negative when first the exhibit hasn't opened yet and second you haven't been too the exhibit to judge the amount of care the staff put in. My parents both worked there for 5 years and from my point of view did care for the animals. They treated the animals as kids. And i know a guy who works there that treats the animals better then anyone i've ever met. He's always down at the zoo. Hanging with the animals. He even raised some of the animals there. So really saying that its a load of bull shit is very wrong.


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## Pablo

fishlover93 said:


> i have to agree with crumbs because i think that the zoo wouldn't put a display of animals with loads of information had they not taken good care of them. I also don't know why you're being so negative when first the exhibit hasn't opened yet and second you haven't been too the exhibit to judge the amount of care the staff put in. My parents both worked there for 5 years and from my point of view did care for the animals. They treated the animals as kids. And i know a guy who works there that treats the animals better then anyone i've ever met. He's always down at the zoo. Hanging with the animals. He even raised some of the animals there. So really saying that its a load of bull shit is very wrong.


I understand you and Crumbs seeing me as being a jerk here.

There is a lot of history with me and the Toronto zoo. I went there with somebody and we tried to talk to the curator about how a lot of the fish exhibits were mismanaged- ie- 9000 african mbuna in a giant tank, no rocks, only fed flake, many sick and injured fish- or the barb tank, the same, the list goes on and on. I have pictures.

For what its worth- pretty much everything that isn't a fish is treated well as far as I can see.

My concern - I was under the impression this was being run by the actual zoo people- was that they would apply the same kind of mis management to this as I felt was applied to almost all the other fish exhibits.

I agree that some aquatic animals can be trained- I have no idea about rays but I believe you - but I still feel that it just isn't right to subject animals of any kind to a petting zoo type of situation with the exception of animals which are 'rediculously long term' humanized- such as goats for example.

I accept the criticism that I may have been too harsh in my words but I've seen a lot of mis treated fish at the toronto zoo and this worried me when I read it.

Crumbs- I wasn't criticizing your fish keeping. I have no idea what you keep 

I was saying all the animals at the zoo should be perfect, then I said EHEM!- toronto zoo- with your crappy fish keeping- as in the zoo has crappy fish keeping.


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## gunnerx

Should have said - EFREM - then we'd know where the blame goes.


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## Ciddian

> 1. First and foremost, this is hobby website dedicated to aquaria, fish and aquarium plants. Please keep your posts on topic. There is a general discussion forum for off topic issues.
> 
> 2. Petty politics are stricky prohibited. This is a hobby forum, not a place for people to play out personal attacks with other members. If you have personal disagreements with any members leave it off the forum.
> 
> 3. Debate is always welcome here at GTAA. Just make sure you address the point and *DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS*. The only way people will learn from the debate is to keep the debate about the topic at hand.


I know debating is hard without getting all worked up... Pablo, not everyone will see your point no matter how many posts you make to beat it into the ground.


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## Pablo

Im not beating it into the ground


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## gunnerx

Pablo said:


> Im not beating it into the ground


It seems like it every time I see it in your sig.


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## fishlover93

Pablo you're not a jerk you sometime come out really negatively and some of the members dislike that


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## gunnerx

Pablo's not Negative, he's passionate. There is quite a difference.


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## Pablo

gunnerx said:


> Pablo's not Negative, he's passionate. There is quite a difference.


Thanks


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## Pablo

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=toronto.jpg

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=XXXXXXXXx.jpg

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=fffff.jpg
(8 inch+ fish being fed low quality flake food- totally insufficient. Also there is a hamsterball floating in a show tank at a zoo. Shame)

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=SEEEXEEEYY.jpg
Very deformed spine

Sadly I am a very bad photographer. Martin got way better pictures-- but these are from November of 06 at the zoo- and we were quite upset by how badly cared for these and other fish were both in their totally nonstimulating environments, mis-feeding, and in some cases just terrible health- such as these deformed fish I have here.

This is why I worry when I hear "Toronto zoo" and "water" together


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## Crumbs

OK, now I am starting to understand why Pablo is so upset at the zoo. It looks like I missed a thread some time ago. Unfortunate.


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## Pablo

Crumbs said:


> OK, now I am starting to understand why Pablo is so upset at the zoo. It looks like I missed a thread some time ago. Unfortunate.


I highly suggest you take a pack of rolaids and some alka seltzer/water in a big thermos and go see for yourself. Its pretty bad.


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## Zebrapl3co

It's good that you guys manage to work things out without spilling any blood .
But to some degree, I do agree with Pablo. People's hand are just disgustingly dirty. A kids hand may be full of germs. But an adults cream chemically sanitize hand maybe even worst.
However, it waits to be seen how well the Toronto zoo can run the show. Or for that matter, the exibits. I was in Chicago 10 years back and they had something similar. I was a bit piss off right off the bat for the same reason as Pablo. "WTF, that can't be good for the fish." But I was impressed by how strick they look after the petting pool. They emphasize every strickly about abusing the aminal. They make sure that every one wash their hands before they can pet the stingray. And best of all, while I was there for that short duration, the girl attendant booted a ratty kid out because he was getting abusive to the stingray. So things can work out. It's just takes some dedication and thinking. I just hope that the Toronto Zoo can be as good as the Chicago aquarium 10 years ago.

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## Windowlicka

I couldn't say whether it is a petting area or otherwise (does anybody else have knowledge on this front?), but (and somewhat ironically) the following story appeared on the news feeds just this evening:

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/ab...temid=CTVNews/20080512/stingray_deaths_080512


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## Ciddian

Thats very upsetting....


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## gunnerx

That's definitely very upsetting. Someone messed up bad there.


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## Zebrapl3co

Funny, I read about the same thing last night. Here is this one with a bit more details:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080512.wcalgary_zoo0512/BNStory/National/home

Obviously, they weren't vigilant on their rules. And for god sakes, is is really that hard to ask people to wash their hands?

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## Tabatha

Zebrapl3co said:


> And for god sakes, is is really that hard to ask people to wash their hands?


Yes, apparently it is! I heard on CBC that some students were given a grant to go to China and teach people how to wash their hands -- they could've stayed right here! I went to a community college where they taught medical care and even there, some didn't wash their hands! I cringe when I see someone washing without soap, you know they're just faking it. ***ew!***


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## KnaveTO

In this case with regard to petting tanks you don't want to use soap. Good warm water and a scrubbie will assist in removing surface residue from food and the like. I am tempted to go to the Zoo and take a look at their display and watch what happens before people are allowed to place their hands in the tank


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## wtac

Re: Zebrapl3co link: I hope that we can avoid it as much a possible


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## Crumbs

What a disaster. I bet you it was some stupid kid was a fault and did it intentionally. But it doesnt make much of a difference. Here is the CNN story


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## wtac

That's the thing w/open concept exhibits...it opens up opporunities for the idoits of society to wreck it for everyone that truly wishes to experience it in its purity.

[email protected]@$$e$. Karma will bite them in the ass...may not be anytime soon as we wish but in due time.


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## Pablo

Hate to say I called it... but seriously you can't trust the public..


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## Crumbs

I take it all back Pablo. Lets all just hope there arn't any of those copy cat idiots in Toronto.


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## Pablo

I totally understood your point of view. You didn't know the history behind my comments.

I worry that if it was this easy for something bad to happen to them at that other zoo it could be even easier if the local Zoo aqua-staff here were directly involved.

The way people treat the poor peacocks at the Toronto Zoo (they just let them walk around wherever they want on zoo property) is a good indicator of how the poor rays would be treated. People let their kids run up and try to pull out their tail feathers and chase them.


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## kweenshaker

I can't believe they're still running the exhibit as planned after the Calgary fiasco. In the least they should restrict petting. I mean WHY does anyone need to pet a ray? Makes no sense.


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## Zebrapl3co

kweenshaker said:


> I can't believe they're still running the exhibit as planned after the Calgary fiasco. In the least they should restrict petting. I mean WHY does anyone need to pet a ray? Makes no sense.


Because you'll most likely lose a limb if you try to pet a shark? So now we get to pet the next best thing to petting a shark! 
But seriously, there are pros and cons. My kids are really excited about the sting ray exibits and when I told them that it's safe to pet them too, they jump up and down with joy. It's not just about the experience of petting an animal. It's about exposure to the water animal kindom and allow our kids (for example) to learn to appreciate them as well. Hopefully that will set up a good exposure and experiences for our next generation so that when they grow up. They too can help preserve our planet and it's diversity of animals. (ahem, that sounds like a bloody speech). But that's basically what I hope to get out of when I bring my kids to the petting area.

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## Pablo

In my opinion, if you want kids to appreciate nature, take them to a nice unhumanized area and take them snorkerling, turn some rocks over, look at the frogs and snakes and birds and so on--without subjecting the animals or kids to potential harm.

I think there's a lot more to be appreciated watching a group of toads in a pond all day, and explaining the perils of the daily life of the animals from cold, predators, etc- what they eat, how they swim,why they live there, look at them mate, or lay eggs, or the tadpoles, and explain the circle of life and wonderful balance of nature that got the toads there in the first place etc..

The petting exhibit does the direct opposite of engendering respect IMO. It creates the illusion that animals are 'things' for kids entertainment.

Remember that children are comparatively extremely simple minded. They have no capacity for reflection. They can not see the forest for the trees.

Ray is in box+I can pet ray= ray is a toy

Its a bad display and I also can not believe they are still running these after one of these time bombs already went off- and it was on CNN...
even if the display did create respect and understanding of the rays- which I think it absolutely does not- we have now established that it places the animals in mortal danger beyond a reasonable doubt. If the rays were people, this would be highly criminal. Its a sad double standard.


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## kweenshaker

I completely agree with what pablo said.

It's great to teach your kids about nature to make them appreciate the world, but teaching them that they can touch wild animals....I just don't get it. People are so obsessed with touching (even I am - I'm one of those people who touches every piece of clothing in a store lol)


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## Pablo

*but teaching them that they can touch wild animals....I just don't get it.*

Very well said.

Apparently- the people designing this exhibit just don't get it either 

What's even more stupid than this is places like sea world that torture whales and dolphins and seals and such.

Orcas pick up fifty pound seals and hurl them 200 feet--but you're going to take a fifty pound kid to sea world and let him pet the thing.

I honestly think its as stupid as going to African Lion Safari and telling your child "Get out and walk behind the car. Oh wait- let me tape this ham to your back. Ok now go"


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## kweenshaker

Pablo said:


> *but teaching them that they can touch wild animals....I just don't get it.*
> 
> Very well said.
> 
> Apparently- the people designing this exhibit just don't get it either
> 
> What's even more stupid than this is places like sea world that torture whales and dolphins and seals and such.
> 
> Orcas pick up fifty pound seals and hurl them 200 feet--but you're going to take a fifty pound kid to sea world and let him pet the thing.
> 
> I honestly think its as stupid as going to African Lion Safari and telling your child "Get out and walk behind the car. Oh wait- let me tape this ham to your back. Ok now go"


lmao

I actually heard a story about some moron who got maimed by a lion at ALS because he was trying to feed it a sandwich. Maybe it's worth the sacrifice of a few animals to have these exhibits - it'll help weed out the morons a wee bit  (Kidding, of course)

I just hate how people treat animals. Somewhat unrelated, a man received a fatal bite from a shark a few weeks ago down in the area of mexico that my family has been going to since before I was born. The mexican 'officials' did a SHARK CULL!! (Apparently didn't even get the shark that attacked the surfer). That is just ridiculous. It's like if my dog bit someone should the humane society come and kill all the other dogs on my street?

Whoa mini tangent there.

But I couldn't have said it better than Gandhi:

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by how they treat their animals."


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## KnaveTO

> It's like if my dog bit someone should the humane society come and kill all the other dogs on my street?


Uh... sorry they did this already... it is called the PitBull ban


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## Pablo

kweenshaker said:


> lmao
> 
> I actually heard a story about some moron who got maimed by a lion at ALS because he was trying to feed it a sandwich. Maybe it's worth the sacrifice of a few animals to have these exhibits - it'll help weed out the morons a wee bit  (Kidding, of course)
> 
> I just hate how people treat animals. Somewhat unrelated, a man received a fatal bite from a shark a few weeks ago down in the area of mexico that my family has been going to since before I was born. The mexican 'officials' did a SHARK CULL!! (Apparently didn't even get the shark that attacked the surfer). That is just ridiculous. It's like if my dog bit someone should the humane society come and kill all the other dogs on my street?
> 
> Whoa mini tangent there.
> 
> But I couldn't have said it better than Gandhi:
> 
> "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by how they treat their animals."


I can totally believe the lion+sandwich thing. I've seen some pretty stupid people. I once saw this guy (not a kid- this guy was like 40) trying to pet the two macaws who live in the store @ Menagerie. They kept telling him "You can't do that they'll take a finger off" I left before the conclusion... but I wouldn't be surprised if someone had to call an ambulance..


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## nightowl1350

Saw the sting ray deaths on the news and with the metro zoo opening soon I hope the same doesn't happen here 

It would be awesome to see them and for many who have never been on trips to swim with them it may be the next best thing. the proper care should be taken into account and lets just hope the zoo can handle it.


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## Pablo

While they're at it they should have a bengal tiger petting exhibit too.


I really hope they dont go through with the Ray thing. Its not that its a terrible idea in and of itself--I just think the public at large is not responsible enough


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## wtac

It's a potentially touchy (pardon the pun) subject. 

I find it quite difficult for society NOT to apply a human condition towards a wild creature. In actuality, WE are treading upon their domain and they are only reacting instictively to our presence/activity. Be it shark "attacks", bear "attacks" or whatever, how can we honesty justify that "they" are at fault? A prime example is the unfortunate event of the late Steve Irwin.

Commercialism, capitalism, marketing, anthropological egocentrism...what is happening is of societies own creation and where is the accountability? All I see is finger pointing. The best that we can do is voice our concerns, educate and hopefully change attitudes for the better.

Unfortunately, common sense isn't so common anymore.

I'll get off my soap-box now...LOL!


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## Pablo

No stay on the soap box! Not enough people get on them.
Its so true. The finger pointing should be (in this situation) at the people who would organize such a display.

There are intelligent people, responsible people, animal loving people, who want to touch a ray with immaculately clean hands and say 'wow'-- there are also losers who think its fun to try to grab them or pour pepsi in the tank or any number of things. The accountability of the public is only as good as the weakest link. You can have 1000 responsible people come by. It only takes one stupid kid with a little bottle of fabric softner or god knows what. Its just not worth it. And its of tremendous disrespect to the animals-- like the way they let the peacocks walk around. There should be security following them.


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## fishaaron

*Feeding at the Zoo*

My two cents.......

I used to work at a public aquarium. Feeding fish flake food was not unheard of. However, most fish were fed more nutritious foods 3+ times per week. If you are not there every day it is hard to say all they feed is low quality flake food.


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## Pablo

fishaaron said:


> My two cents.......
> 
> I used to work at a public aquarium. Feeding fish flake food was not unheard of. However, most fish were fed more nutritious foods 3+ times per week. If you are not there every day it is hard to say all they feed is low quality flake food.


Nope. Had a meeting with the curator. Its Hagen flake food (the crappy one) that they receive free for some reason in 5 gal buckets.


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## Zebrapl3co

Pablo said:


> While they're at it they should have a bengal tiger petting exhibit too.
> ...


What's wrong with that? I pet a tiger before. May not be bengal, but it's a tiger ...

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## Pablo

This kind


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## Crumbs

Just wondering if anyone did make it out to the exhibit. Id be interested in a review.


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## wtac

I'm hoping to visit there w/the wife next Sun...gotta see what the fuss is about .


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