# Strange Occurrences



## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Hello everybody! This is my first post, and first off I would like to say how excited I am to join your community. I am quite new to the hobby, and I'm looking forward to learning a few (by a few i mean a lot) things here and there from more experienced users.

Introductions aside, I think I have a (rather serious) problem. I just got a new 36 gallon aquarium set up about 10 days ago. 2 days prior to that, I let it cycle so that the bacteria culture I added and the water conditioner would be set up. Then after those 2 days, I added 3 goldfish, one of which died next morning. Another 2 days later i added:
2 Plecos
2 Dojo Loaches
4 Goldfish

The two loaches died first. One died, and then the other one died the next day. Upon inspection of their corpses, i saw that both observed what seemed to be a hole in its pelvic mid-section, as well as bloody gills and anus. Regardless of thir deaths i got another loach which seems to be doing fine so far (although it spends most of its time burrowed under the gravel, and only comes out to eat).

This morning I found two goldfish dead, as well as one pleco.
I tested the water either daily or every other day with API NH3/NH4 Ammonia Test Kit, and API pH Test Kit (6-7.6). The ammonia test kit always showed that my ammonia levels were either 0ppm or between 0 and 1. Unfortunately due to my lack of knoweledge I got only a 6-7.6 pH test kit, which does not give me a good indication of my pH --> its always showing max, so I think that that might be the problem.

Also, 2 of the remaining goldfish have some sort of white marks on their tails and fins. I made a short video (about 4MB) so you can see how they look. I tried pictures, but they come out blurry.

I also took some pictures of one of the goldfish before it died. I tried uploading them here, but it says theyre too big, so i put them on my blog instead. The goldfish here is missing a chunk of its tail, but its been like that since maybe 3 months ago when it got into a fight with another goldfish in their smaller 2 gallon tank. However it started looking like a ghost relatively recently, maybe since a day ago maximum.

Thanks for taking the time to red this. If you have any questions, or want me to post some more pictures, dont hesitate to ask, I will be more than happy to post them. I really hope that someone can help me out with this.


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## ksimdjembe (Nov 11, 2006)

Hey there and welcome to the forum.

unfortunately your visit starts with bad news.
I think i am not alone when i say that you are overstocking your tank.
also I am not sure of the compatibility of goldfish and loaches. 

however, before we continue, we need to cover more info.
I also think you are trying to push nature faster than it can go. a cycle happens very slowly.. maybe more than a month. 

we need to know the pH of the tank
how long are the lights on?
how much are you feeding?
what are you feeding?
how much salt - if any?
what are the nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia readings?
are you using live plants?
how often do you do water changes?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Welcome to the forum.

The problem probably stems from the fact that the filter was not ready for the fish you put in there. 

You were right in waiting for the filter to cycle, except that you should have waited 2 weeks before adding any fish. I know you're probably excited to get going, but to do it right it takes a little time.

Anyways, adding all these fish shocks the system, which is not capable of handling the watstes they produce. Consequently, the fish probably died of ammonia poisioning. 

Your filter has not built up a colony of bacteria that can metabolize the ammonia to less harmful nitrite. This must happen before the cycle can progress further.

The holes in the fish are from the other fish eating them when they were corpses.

Before adding any fish, let the aquarium run for two weeks or so, then add fish slowly. One or two at a time. Adding 7 goldfish in 3 days will stress any tank mature or not. When adding fish start slow, and you will have much more success.

You'll find a wealth of info and people willing to help here, so it's a good place to be.

@ksimdjembe: goldfish (carp) and loaches come from the same environment and often coexist. They should be fine. I would worry about the plec and the goldfish, as they are known to eat the slime coat off of larger slow fish.


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## twoheadedfish (May 10, 2008)

aw, i'm sorry. it's a crummy way to start in the hobby. on the plus side though, you'll learn tonnes here and in short order you'll have a good looking, healthy tank, i'm sure. (take it from a guy who had >5.0 ph and thought fern's roots were some sort of parasite growing off the plant's leaves not three months ago.)

stick with ameekplec's and ksimdjembe's advice and you'll do fine.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

*we need to know the pH of the tank*
-- i will find out as soon as i get a better test kit
*how long are the lights on?*
--only on when I'm in the room - maybe 4 hours/day, maximum 7
*how much are you feeding?*
-- goldfish flakes amounting to about the size of a nickel per serving, twice daily
-- 3 or 4 shrimp pellets per day
*what are you feeding?*
--Wardley Goldfish Flakes, and Wardley Shrimp Pellets
*how much salt - if any?*
-- i have not tested for that. in fact I didnt even know you can test for that. Is there salt in tap water? - will find out when i go to the aquarium store on Friday.
*what are the nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia readings?*
-- ammonia (0 to 0.2 ppm) tested daily
-- nitrite and nitrate will find out, have to get a testkit.
*are you using live plants?*
-- nope
*how often do you do water changes?*
--every week, about 20-30% (so far I only did one)


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks guys, I appreciate the fast responses. Since i dont yet know all the levels in my water, and the soonest that I will find out is tomorrow, what do you suggest I should do?

should I change like 20% of the water jsut in case, to dilute whatever *might* be in there. Also i noticed they've grown more agitated since morning, and the goldfish chase one another.

Thanks


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## duffgrot (Jul 4, 2008)

In an ideal environment, you would build the ammonia and nitrite eating bacteria slowly, by either adding pure ammonia, in a fishless cycle, or by adding small fish slowly every week or so, which allows the bacteria to build. Since you have the fish already, you have lots of ammonia for the bacteria to feed on, and turn into nitrites for other bacteria to eat, to turn into nitrates, but you don't have enough bacteria to eat all that fish waste. What I would do is add some live plants and see if you can find anyone who can give you some established filter media (used cartridge or bag from an existing aquarium) to go into your filter. The plants will help with the nitrates, which is the final stage of the cycle, and the media will help seed your tank with both beneficial bacteria. Doing frequent water changes will help your fish, but not your cycling. By doing a water change you will remove a lot of the toxic ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates, but your bacteria culture will take longer to establish. I would do daily water changes of 25% to 50%, depending on the size of your goldfish. Your cycle might take months instead of weeks, but at least your fish will survive.  

Good luck, you'll find lots of information here; sometimes conflicting, sometimes confusing, but always with good intentions.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Oh dear!

I think duffgot hit the nail on the head; your tank is not cycled. I bet your nitrites and nitrates are high. Gold fish especially create a lot of waste.

I am doing my darnedest to make out those white marks but I just can't seem to (it sux to be old). Do the marks look like grains of salt? If yes then they have ich which can be treated in a number of ways: raise the temp to low 80's, add salt (1/2 tsp. per gallon) and or get Jungle Ich tablets. The ich parasite us common in everyone's tank and healthy fish can normaly fight it of but in times of stress it can decimate your fish.

Good luck and get the tank cycled but for now change the water.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Welcome to the GTAA!

I'm wondering what type of filtration you are using on your tank. The make/model and the gallons per hour it turns over/ (GPH) To treat goldfish for parasites you should do the following:

Recently a lot of people have been asking about salt and which salt is okay to use when they have a sick fish and have been recommended to use the medicinal dose of .3%.
*
Do not ever use salt that contains the following:
Salts that are not safe

YPS (Yellow prussiate of soda).

Anti caking agents especially those containing cyanuric acid.

Cow salt blocks or salt containing magnesium and other added minerals.

And iodine.

Iodine will actually not hurt the fish but it will harm your beneficial bacteria and cycle.*

*Salts that are safe*

You can safely use rock salt, kosher salt, sea salt, synthetic reef salt, non-mineralised salt cow blocks,solar salt, water softener salt and some non-iodised table salts. Check the salt says 99.97% NaCl on the packet as a double precaution. All these salts should say exactly that. The added drying agent in some salts called sodium aluminosilicate is also not dangerous.

Some of these salts will produce carbonates & raise pH slightly. This is not good for tanks showing any ammonia at all. Make sure ammonia is zero before administrering salt.

_*None of these salts will damage your cycle at a strength of .3% and in fact possibly higher.*_

How to administer

Using salt at the medicinal dosage of .3%.

You will be adding salt at 3 x 12 hour intervals.

First of all make sure that the tank water is registering 0 for ammonia and nitrites. Nitrates should also be as low as possible. Mix the first dosage of .1 % of salt in a small bucket/cup with a small amount of treated conditioned water or tank water. This means one teaspoon per one gallon. So if you have a 10 gallon tank for example you are going to be adding 10 level teaspoons (one teaspoon is 5ml ) to the bucket or cup.

Mix the salt until it is completely dissolved. The warmer the water the quicker it dissolves. It can take 5 minutes or so. The salt must be completely dissolved before adding it to the tank. There should be no grains of salt visible, only a kind of shiny cloud is visible as you pour the salted water into the tank. Pour the salted water into a heavily aerated area of the tank...under the filter power outlet or fountain spray bar will provide the best circulation of the salt.

Leave the tank and fish for 12 hours. Remember if your fish are sick you are probably not feeding much and if they are stressed a dark cover on the tank can provide welcome shade and comfort. If you are treating for ich you will need to start to slowly raise the tank temp (no more than 2 degrees in an hour)aiming for a final stable temp of 80F.

After 12 hours repeat the dose. That is another 10 teaspoons for a 10 gallon tank pre-mixed as described.

After another 12 hours repeat again. This brings you finally to the recommended .3% medicinal dosage.

With minimal feeding/no feeding and pre tank water parameters at optimal levels you can safely leave the salted tank for several days while the salt gets to work. However if you are treating for parasites including ich it is very important that you do gravel vacs to remove parasite eggs that will be continuously falling on the tank bottom. (Bare bottom tanks are much easier to vacuum when dealing with parasites).

Remember with every gravel vac or water change you are going to need to replace the salt. So if you remove 1 gallon of water after a thorough vac, you will need to replace 3 teaspoons of tank water dissolved salt. It is a very good idea to keep a salt diary by the tank so you can track your salt content- how much is in there.

After the recommended time you can safely begin to remove the salt. This is done simply through water changes. If you add no more, gradually over several water changes all the salt will be removed.

Also you mentioned your goldfish were getting agressive with one another, between the storms we are having and the temperatures going up and down they are probally exibiting breeding behaviour where the males will chase the females and if no females are present sometimes smaller males.

The white spots on their tails are definately ich. Using the above procedure will help clear the ich and the salt will protect their gills from nitrate/nitrite poisioning.

As far as heat is concerned heating goldfish are coldwater fish but can handle heat but it should be done gradually, your fish are already in a weakened condition and you don't want to stress them out further. Turn up your heater one degree per day until you hit the 80 degree mark I wouldn't reccomend going any higher, this will speed up the life cycle of Ich.

I keep my filters stocked with extra sponges so if you'd like to come by and pick up some seeded filter media from my goldfish tank they are all very happy and healthy and I'd be happy to help you out.
*
PS
The loaches & the pleco's will not be able to tolerate the salt. You can also try Rid Ich*


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

As stated, your fish more than likely died from ammonia poisoning.

Also, do you dechlorinate your water before adding it into the tank?

I would suggest adding some cheap live plants to your tank to help cycle it as well. I'm sure others have clippings they could probably spare.


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## Westender (Mar 24, 2006)

There is another - rather drastic - approach you can take to set up the nitrogen cycle in a tank almost immediately that I've used on the very rare occasion that I've needed it.

Sera makes a product called Nitrivec. Buy the 50ml bottle and dump it all in. Stop feeding your fish for a week (don't worry - they won't starve).

Keep testing the water and performing 10-20% water changes daily. This has worked for me in the past. You should see nitrites and ammonia levels drop away almost immediately.

I'm sure it's a little controversial, but on the occasion when you need it, it seems to do the trick.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

The first thing I'm going to do tomorrow after work is stop by an aquarium store near my place, and bring them a bottle of my water to test, and see just how bad my aquarium is.

Right now I have an Aquaclear 50 filter set up. My tank is about 36 gallons, so I dont think that its the filter that's the problem, rahter it's the lack of bacteria as most of you suggested. Now, when I go to the store tomorrow, and ask for some bacteria culture, is it a piece of that "sponge" that goes on the bottom of the AquaClear, or is it something else?

Also, I'm thinking of adding a live plant, and I have 2 questions about that:

1. How long do I have to leave the light on for? The aquarium is in a room with a window, but not in direct light. Or are there species better suited for darker environments?

2. Right now all I have is about an inch of smooth gravel on the bottom. Do i just pluck the plant in there, and off it goes? Do i need more gravel? Do i need some sort of sand or soil?

P.S. I'm heading over to the live plants section of the forum to check it out.

Again, thank you everybody for your generous input. <3


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Bacteria will grow on its own - you really can't purchase it...at least not that I know of.

You can ask if they have a used filter sponge or something, or ask if they can squeeze out a dirty filter sponge into a bag for you if you want.

You can then just put that into your own filter, which will help develop bacteria films.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

hmm...ok

also, another thing... I use a python to change my water as well as to vacuum the gravel, which I find very convenient. is there to declorinate the water before it goes in the python? 

Also, I dont know if this is considered a dechlorinator, but i use a Top Fin Water Conditioner, and Bacteria supplement.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

the_limit said:


> The first thing I'm going to do tomorrow after work is stop by an aquarium store near my place, and bring them a bottle of my water to test, and see just how bad my aquarium is.


Great idea ask them to test for:
-Ammonia
-Nitrates
-Nitrites
-pH (since your there you might as well) 


> Right now I have an Aquaclear 50 filter set up. My tank is about 36 gallons, so I dont think that its the filter that's the problem, rahter it's the lack of bacteria as most of you suggested. Now, when I go to the store tomorrow, and ask for some bacteria culture, is it a piece of that "sponge" that goes on the bottom of the AquaClear, or is it something else?


Yes and no...Goldfish are extremely messy fish and need very heavy filtration. An aquaclear 70 would be better or anything that would get your filtration idealy to 360 gallons per hour. 10X's the filtration per hour which is what goldfish need. I started out exactly in the same situation as you and goldfish and now keep and breed several types of fancy goldfish. Goldfish people need to stick together I probally have a spare filter for you somewhere in one of my fish boxes that will help out with that if need be. 

Again I am happy to offer you some seeded sponges (which have the good bacteria bugs your filter needs to cycle) you can add this to your exsisting filter to help give your cycle a kick start. 


> Also, I'm thinking of adding a live plant, and I have 2 questions about that:
> 
> 1. How long do I have to leave the light on for? The aquarium is in a room with a window, but not in direct light. Or are there species better suited for darker environments?
> 
> ...


Please be aware that ICH spores (tomites) can live in plant roots and can also hurt your situation rather then help it. Plus any medication or salt that you plan to add to the tank to treat the ICH will more then likely kill your plants. I'd worry less about the plants and more about the cycle and the parasites. I know this sounds like a whole lot of information but it will get easier.

If I can help with the filter or a sponge from my tanks send me a pm. I'm happy to help.

Top Fin is in fact dechlorinator, when you run out of that I'd suggest prime which will bind your ammonia, nitrates and nitrItes and therefore help your fish get through the cycle a little better.

Kate


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

the_limit said:


> hmm...ok
> 
> also, another thing... I use a python to change my water as well as to vacuum the gravel, which I find very convenient. is there to declorinate the water before it goes in the python?
> 
> Also, I dont know if this is considered a dechlorinator, but i use a Top Fin Water Conditioner, and Bacteria supplement.


Just add your dechlorinator to your tank prior to using your python - once the new water is in the tank, it will dechlorinate it.

Kate gives some good advice and I will reiterate getting some Seachem Prime for use in dechlorinating your water. You can also use smaller amounts in the meantime while your tank properly cycles to remove ammonia/nitrite, but this is sometimes counter-productive as the bacteria you need to build up in your filter lives off ammonia/nitrite so is necessary to grow an active biofilm.

You are on the right track, don't be put off by your recent problems!


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

the_limit said:


> The first thing I'm going to do tomorrow after work is stop by an aquarium store near my place, and bring them a bottle of my water to test, and see just how bad my aquarium is.
> 
> Right now I have an Aquaclear 50 filter set up. My tank is about 36 gallons, so I dont think that its the filter that's the problem, rahter it's the lack of bacteria as most of you suggested. Now, when I go to the store tomorrow, and ask for some bacteria culture, is it a piece of that "sponge" that goes on the bottom of the AquaClear, or is it something else?
> 
> ...


1. It depends on the the plants you are buying. The better fish stores will be able to give you the lighting requirements. 10 - 12 hrs is usually more than enough though.

2. 1" isn't a whole lot. You want something for the roots to branch out in. But it will do. Especially if you leave the weights on the stems to keep them anchored. Of course, with some types of fish it's a lost cause as they'll uproot them anyway. Depending on the plant you may want to purchase some Florish plant food. Even just a little bit helps. You only need soil if you're planning to set up a heavily planted tank. That's a whole other branch of this hobby.

Yes, ich can be in the plant roots but I suspect even if you don't have plants your tank has the spores floating around anyway. From what I've read most if not all tanks have them but in a healthy community the fish can resist them. It's only when they get stressed and their resistance is down that the ich can get a foothold.

Salt is controversial. If you have mollies or other fish that in the wild live in brackish water then it's a great idea. If not then I wouldn't. In a mixed community you need to be careful. Coryadoras don't do well with salt.

Bacteria. Yes there are some products that appear to work. But I don't use em. I cycle my tanks with time. In reality you don't even need a filter, IF you do daily water changes. So while your filter is cycling, keep up the changes. Measure the NH3/4 and NO2 while it's cycling, forget the NO3 for now. When you start to see NO2 you'll know that the bacteria has taken hold. Keep changing the water and start measuring NO3. When you see NO3 then your filter has got the right bacteria community. You should see the NH3/4 and NO2 dropping and disappear. Keep doing weekly 20% water changes to remove/lower the NO3.
I'd also take Katalyst up on her offer. That lady is a saint...

Python. Real controversy here. I NEVER put tap water directly into the tank <ducks for cover>. I have a couple of 5 gallon pails that I fill with COLD tap water then treat with dechlor and let stand for about 12 hours to come to room temp. The Top Fin stuff is fine (low end product) as a dechlor and to remove heavy metals (please note: don't add plant fertilizer right after a water change as the dechlor will take out things like iron, wait a couple of days). If you need to take out other things (they're not really taken out, just neutralized) then get a high end product like Prime. I have several different ones on hand. Use the Python to remove the water digging in the gravel to get out the crap. Then pour the water from the pails into the tank. I started with a juice container but switched to a submersible pump. If you have a high spot close to the tank, you can siphon the water in. I then fill the pails again with the Python.

Aquaclear. I love those filters BUT on all my tanks over 20 gallons I also have a cannister filter. Ya, I know, I'm made of money. The more filters the greater the buffer to handle the load. As stated earlier though, you could run the tank without one, just more water changes. If you do have the money, go buy a cannister filter, Eheim 2213 is a nice size for you. Keep your eye out for a used one. I picked up a Eheim 2215 from Ameekplec this week for $80. Good deal.

Bacteria supplement. Now that one I'm not sure about. They never really tell WHAT bacteria is in the bottle. Does it help? Maybe. Will it hurt? Doubtful. But there are more important things to spend your money on.

I think and hope I answered all you questions. You've done the right thing comming to this forum to get answers BUT I would also suggest you go to the library / book store to read some 'current' books. Also browse the net, remember Google is your friend. Try http://www.firsttankguide.net/ . Get several opinions. Good luck.

And have fun!

Cheers.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Thank you for such a great reply! I'm so happy I found this forum! I've been sitting there, just reading other people's posts - I found so much useful information! 

Also, now that you mention it, I will probably drop by my local library and see what they have on aquarium/fish/plant maintenance.

Right now I'm at work, but after work I'll go to a pet store and get my water tested, and post the complete results on here. Thanks to all of you for being so supportive, I really don't know what I would have done otherwise. I'm actually really excited now to fix the problem and get my tank back to normal.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Huh?
Didn't you say that you have a 2 gallons going? If so, then you can seed your own tank by squezing the 2 gallons filter spong right on top of your 36G's filter ...

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Yes, and no.

My 2 gallon is like a cheap all-in one Walmart tank. That being said, it sports an undergravel filter. In this case there is no real filter media... I mean, gravel would be the media, no? I guess I could move some of the old gravel to the new tank, however that would be an impossibility because it's been dry for the past 10 days, and I already removed the gravel from it. However that was a really good idea, and if I did have a proper filtration system set up, that would have worked perfectly, but I still value the input. But no worries I'm going to pick up one of Kat's old sponges later on today  , so *hopefully* I should be good.

<tangent alert>
Do undergravel filters really work? And/or are they a viable alternative to the other filters?
</tangent alert>


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

the_limit said:


> Yes, and no.
> 
> My 2 gallon is like a cheap all-in one Walmart tank. That being said, it sports an undergravel filter. In this case there is no real filter media... I mean, gravel would be the media, no? I guess I could move some of the old gravel to the new tank, however that would be an impossibility because it's been dry for the past 10 days, and I already removed the gravel from it. However that was a really good idea, and if I did have a proper filtration system set up, that would have worked perfectly, but I still value the input. But no worries I'm going to pick up one of Kat's old sponges later on today  , so *hopefully* I should be good.


You'll be fine! 


> <tangent alert>
> Do undergravel filters really work? And/or are they a viable alternative to the other filters?
> </tangent alert>


Not for the amount of waste goldfish produce, save your money and pick up Seachems Prime instead.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

*Results*

Ok, i just came back from the pet store, got my test kit handy, and here are the results:

*drumroll*

GH: *120*
KH: *~130*
pH: *7.5*
NO2: *0*
NO3: *0*
Ammonia: *1.3*

I have also got a filter with a "seeded" sponge from Katalyst, both of which i am deeply indebted for. Also, the wonderful person that she is, she gave me a bottle of ich medicine. So I applied that, and now that the Ammonia levels have risen I'm also applying some Seachem Prime which I picked up earlier today.

Since the ich medicine lowers the oxygen content of the water, I've turned up my air, so my two aerators are bubbling slightly more vigorously, plus I have two filters going in there now (AqC. 50 & 70), and they both produce quite a bit of bubbles as well.

*Remaining fish*
1 Fantail Goldfish 
2 Common Goldfish
1 Dojo (Weather) Loach

First of all, as far as I can tell, the dojo loach seems unaffected. He spends most of the time buried under the gravel, but when he does come out to eat, or for an accasional dart to the surface for air, his skin is clear of white dots (as far as I can tell) and he seems ok to me. Sometimes I'm actually worried that he might be dead and I won't know, because like 85% of the time he's invisible under the gravel somewhere.

All of the remaining goldfish appear to be afflicted by ich. They become more active and move closer to the surface when they think I'm about to give them food, but other than that, all three just sort of wiggle at the bottom of the tank. The smallest one (the fantail) is barely moving. It's off by itself in a corner, under a rock. I can see its mouth moving, and very faint tail movements.

I don't know if this is because it's late at night, and they're sort of going to sleep, or if it's because the ich and high ammonia are getting to them. Whatever the case, I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and I really hope they pull through. I really dont want to have to use the net again...

Good night.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

The ammonia won't raise because of the meds. 1.3 is lethal so I hope that cycle kicks in fast! I'd hold off on feeding, feed every other day once a day to keep the waste down. Fast them tomorrow, they'll be fine. The problem with the test kits I find is that it can be difficult to differentiate between .25-.50 etc. 

I'd get some prime asap and double or triple dose your tank, it will bind harmful ammonia and help the fish ride out the cycle. I gave you a lot of media from a very established tank so hopefully by the am your readings will be lower. 

I find it sad that the Pet Store told you all your levels were fine. 

Lastly, you are not indebted to me this is between me and your fish! I want them to feel better!  Keep me posted and call me if you need to, I'm happy to help.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks Kat, I really appreciate all you have done for me. For now all I can do is wait. I added a double dose of prime, and I just checked the ammonia again, and it seems to have receeded to about 0.8 or so. 

I noticed really strange behaviour in the two common goldfish. Theyre both sitting in the same corner, side by side, and they do circles around each other. You can sort of get the idea from my highly pixelated snapshots.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

The poor little guys are really unhappy right now. Clamped fins and all. 

Try adding more prime (up to the 5x point to get the ammonia to 0) Ideally, you always ALWAYS want a reading of 0 for ammonia.
Also, turn the lighting off, and make sure you don't have excessive water movement (so they don't have to fight it continuously). If all goes well, they should be looking better in a day or two.

You can also cheat with this. Dose 5x, wait 15 minutes or so, then test the water. If there is still an ammonia reading, change out some water and add the proper ratio of prime to make it 5x again. For example, the recommended 1x dosage is 1ml per every 10 gallons, so the 5x dose is 5ml per 10 gallons. You treat your 36 gallons with 18ml (5x dose). You find that you still have ammonia, so you do a large water change (50%). Since you have removed 50% of the water, re-add the corresponding amount of prime to restore the amount of prime to 5x (9ml, 50% of 18m). The result is that you neutralize as much as you can with the first dosage, then remove the neutralized product, replace water and as a result dilute whatever is left, then treat maximally to ensure that you get whatever ammonia is left.

Do you have a test kit for pH at home? If your tap water is acidic (less than 7, ) or even below your tank current 7.5, then make several water changes till your pH sits (ideally) below 7 . Ammonia is exponentially more toxic the higher the pH above neutral (7). If you can lower the pH then it will also help to alleviate the stress from ammonia poisoning.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Poor little buddies, I wanna pet their little heads. The bottom sitting worries me hopefully that'll stop. They have a lot going on right now with the ammonia and the ich. But they are tough little fish. What temp is the tank at?


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Well, this morning I woke up, and went to check up on the tank, and saw the two common goldfish swimming about - maybe not with great dexterity, but better than last night. So I was really happy about that. However the fantail was in the same position under a rock, and I was not able to see it breathing or moving. So, I reached in with my net, but when I got close, it got up and darted away! I fed them a little, added more medication, and tested the water.

The ammonia level fell to about 0.5 ppm, however I think the pH increased. It's sort of hard to tell with a strip test kit (I like my ammonia test tube kit better), but I think it might be as high as 8 pH. So, right now I'll change 20% of the water, add more prime and medicine, and then do another 20% change after work.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

that\s good to hear that everyone is doing much better this morning!

I'd hold off on the feedings right now. Fish can go a few days without feeding. Right now all that food and waste they produce will only contribute to your problems, so if you can I'd hold off till everything is a bit more stable.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Yeah, I actually regretted feeding them, however right after I fed them I changed 20% of the water and as I was doing that I vacuumed, which removed quite a bit of waste, so hopefully it should be ok. 

P.S. I hope you guys dont mind that I'm posting so often and providing updates on the condition of my tank. Once I have it more or less stable, I'll stop posting 238746 times a day.


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

You can float Hornwort, Duckweed, Elodea, etc under a bright fluorescent light and the nitrogen wastes will be consumed in hours. It also gives something for the goldfish to nibble on when they start to feel better.


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

the_limit said:


> P.S. I hope you guys dont mind that I'm posting so often and providing updates on the condition of my tank. Once I have it more or less stable, I'll stop posting 238746 times a day.


Don't worry as many of us are silently waiting in the background for your updates and hoping for the best.  Things do sound a bit better.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

The meds in the water will kill the plants causing decay etc. Illya I wouldn't do more then one water change per day. If they are already that stressed & weak just add the large amounts of prime as Ameekplec suggested. Hopefully soon you'll start to get 0 readings. With the large amounts of seeded media you have now it shouldn't take very long to get it going. Goldfish are extremely hardwater fish, the pH rising is very a very curious thing. Honestly I'd worry most about ammonia, nitrates & nitrItes. With goldies you want to keep nitrates ideally under 10 which plants will help you with as others have mentioned but its always a good idea of quarentine plants so none of the nasties hiding in them can infect your fish further. 

Don't worry about updating us, I keep checking in to see how you are doing.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Today I lost another common goldfish. It did not seem to look better, and looked like it swam through some cobwebs. It's body was covered with this white stuff...almost strands of it. My other common goldfish is in a similar condition, but it's still relatively active. The fantail is no longer sitting at the bottom - on the other hand its swimming at the surface, just near the "waterfall" from the Aquaclear filter - I'm guessing for the better oxygen content up there. It's tail is in strands, and i still see ich on the fins.

I posted some videos here (this time you dont have to download them)

One <- fantail
Two <- fantail
Three <- fantail
Four <- common

I'm not sure that I am naming them correctly, and if its not a fantail or a common, please let me know .

I kept monitoring the ammonia, and I'm happy to say that it has been successfully dropping, and now its at about *0.2ppm*. I think the combination of prime and established filter media are doing it. The rest of the stats are the same, save for the pH, which is about *7.5*

Please tell me what you guys think.

P.S. Here is a video of my loach, he seems to be in good condition, only I'm not sure if his breathing is ok (seems fast)


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

The 4th fish is in very bad shape, I see a few things. Goldfish often get bacterial/secondary infections when a parasite is present. I see fin rot, open sores, possible fungus but I'm leaning more to columnaris.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/columnaris.htm

Cycles are hard on fish and unfortunately it gets worse before it gets better. I'm glad the other fish seem to be doing a little better, some of my goldfish as you saw yesterday are also surfaces hangers. But that's mainly because they are the biggest beggars on the planet.


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## duffgrot (Jul 4, 2008)

Loach looks good on the outside, much better than the goldfish, but there is probably some internal damage that might show itself weeks later. High ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates can cause internal organ damage, especially to a fish's liver/kidneys. Unfortunately this is irreversible. The goldfish look like they have secondary bacterial infections, which if you medicate for, will unfortunately kill your good bacteria along with the bad, bringing your cycle back to the starting line. Keep up with what your doing; using prime, doing daily water changes, and using salt (although the dojo loach won't like it) or another comparable ich medication like Maricide from Mardel. If you use an anti-bacterial med, you'll just be back to the start again. Tough it out with the fish, even if they don't survive past a few more weeks, you'll have a cycled tank, and you will have much more success with your next batch.

Good luck, I hope they make it, but don't beat yourself up over it if they don't. We've all made the exact same mistakes. 20 year s ago, I used to think it was normal that my fish should only last a month, before I had to restock. The hobby has come leaps and bounds since then, and you are way ahead of the curve with everything you have done so far.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

> I'm glad the other fish seem to be doing a little better


The first three videos are all the same one fish. I know the quality is horrible, but do you think that one is more or less ok? I am still treating the water with QuICK Cure which promises to rid the fish of protozoa, so hopefully the common goldfish can pull through.

Also, I totally agree that goldfish are the biggest beggars ever. The white one (videos 1-3) nibbles on my skin every time my hand is submeged, and its always the first one up there, waiting for handouts.

Kat, I know I've said this before, but I want to reiterate it again - thank you so much - youre awesome!


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Duffgrot, I really appreciate your words of encouragement, but I still want to get these fish through this...i mean it's my incompetence that got them to where they are now, and it's up to me to reverse it.

Also, I'm going to the library tomorrow - going to pick up some books and read up on aquarium & fish maintenance. I guess better late than never right?

For now all I think I can do is keep repeating the same process every day, and hope for the best.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

the_limit said:


> Kat, I know I've said this before, but I want to reiterate it again - thank you so much - youre awesome!


Stop that, you'll ruin my reputation!


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Limit, it may be good also to hold off the maintenance schedule of water changes and treatments like was said earlier. What may be best at this point is just treating for the ammonia, and just sitting back for a bit. Constant fluctuations in chemistry really stress fish out, and at this point your guys need no more stresses. Give them a few days with minimal feeding, and they should start looking better, as you've already got them on the right track!


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Well, now it's just me and Watson, the loach.
Ammonia is back to zero
pH is ~7.4

Thanks to everybody for trying to help me sustain what I had, but it was stupid of me to rush in like that with tons of new fish. Instead, now I'm doing what I should have done a long time ago - I picked up _The Complete Aquarium Guide: Fish, Plants and Accessories for Your Aquarium_, and started reading from the beginning.

I still have several questions though:
Do I keep medicating the water?
At what point in time will I know that my tank is ready to accept an extra fish (goldfish), and how do i get there?
Do I need to consider putting in a live plant or driftwood (or both?). If yes, what would be a relatively easy plant to maintain? Java fern?
P.S. does anyone know any good comprehensive books for beginners?


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## duffgrot (Jul 4, 2008)

If the loach is not showing any outward signs of infection and no physiological ones either i.e. swimming erratically, then I would cease medicating. In my experience fungi, bacteria and parasites are always present in an aquarium to some degree. Just as we ourselves are constantly bombarded with viruses and bacteria, it is only when a fish is stressed that its immune system cannot cope with these invaders and they get sick, like we do. Not all nasties are in all aquariums, but some are to a degree and some get added to the slurry when new additions such as new fish and plants are added to the tank.

I would give your tank a few weeks to simmer down and sort itself out. In the meantime, I would slowly introduce a water changing regime. It will slowly remove some of the medications and gradually restore a beneficial water chemistry. This will also give yourself some time to do some research on what you want to put in your tank. There is no right answer for what's best. Some combinations work better than others, but you need to find what you like.

I'm sorry for your loss, hopefully we can turn that frown upside down when we get that tanked stocked up again.  + happy tank =


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

1. Do I keep medicating the water?
No. Only if directed to do so.

2. At what point in time will I know that my tank is ready to accept an extra fish (goldfish), and how do i get there?
Give it a week or two just to let everything catch up and get used to bioload. Start slow, 1 gold fish at a time. If you want to do other tropical fish, that are smaller and produce less waste, you may be able to get away with a small group of 5 at a time.

3. Do I need to consider putting in a live plant or driftwood (or both?). If yes, what would be a relatively easy plant to maintain? Java fern?
A live plant will help to use up some of the nitrogenous wastes (NH3/NH4, NO2-, NO3-). Slow growers that are easy to keep and are hardy are anubias species and ferns (java, windolev, etc), as well as most crypts too. But to really soak up the nitrogenous wastes you need fast growers that can utilize available nutrients (to the plants it is nourishing food, to the fish it is death inducing poison) quickly to remove it before it can do any harm. Generally hornwort is very effective for this among other species.


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## the_limit (Jul 24, 2008)

Alright. I'll put the activated charcoal filter back in, so it can start removing the medication, and tomorrow I'll do a 20% change. And maybe next weekend I'll take an excursion to Big Al's and see what I can get for myself in terms of plants.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Don't put the charcoal back in till you're completely rid of the ick (you are treating for it, as I recall?). Prematurely removing the medication can cause a relapse.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Personally I wouldn't remove the meds just yet. I would definately hold off on any new fish until your tank is fully cycled and parasite free.


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