# P.E.T.A on aquariums



## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

Someone posted this to me.

http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=30


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6443275746&v=info


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## arinsi (Mar 14, 2010)

the tips given are just common knowledge most fish keepers already know

im disappointed of how this does not touch upon other critters that we keep in aquariums and the species that we selectively breed

fish in the wild are more prone to global warming fisheries and pollution

global warming screwing up water climates
overfishing and that Big oil sPill


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I kind of agree.

A lot of people are killing "Aquarium Pets" in alarming number. I would be curious to how long some people can keep a fish in their care alive?


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Let me try to point out everything wrong with this:

Fragile tropical fish, who were born to dwell in the majestic seas and forage among brilliantly colored coral reefs, suffer miserably when they are forced to spend their lives in glass tanks.*Assumption fallacy - Lacks evidence* The same is true of river fish*We generally use the term freshwater as our vocabulary isn't as limited as theirs is.*. Robbed of their natural habitats and denied the ability to travel freely,*Assumes that the aquarium owner is not a member of GTAAquaria or any other amazing forum* they must swim around in the same few cubic inches of water endlessly. *Assumption fallacy - Assumes that the tank is small. Hasty generalization - Assumes all fish need a lot of space without any evidence*

Where Fish Really Come From
The popularity of keeping tropical fish has created a virtually unregulated industry that catches and breeds as many fish as possible with little regard for the animals themselves.*Assumption fallacy - Assumes 'little regard'. Strawman and Red Herring Fallacies - Creates a new topic, the fish breeding industry and puts them in a negative light (spotlight fallacy) and focuses on it for quite some time* While many species of coral are protected under the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species, most of the fish who end up in aquariums are not.(1) *Does not explain what this protection is, what it does, and what it means for us. As I don't know what this is myself, I can guarantee you that they are just mentioning it for the hell of it.*

An estimated 95 percent of saltwater fish sold in pet shops came from the wild, mostly from the waters around Indonesia, the Philippines, Fiji, and other Pacific islands.(2) More than 20 million fish, 12 million corals, and 10 million other types of marine life-like anemones, shrimps, and mollusks-are captured every year to support a $300 million worldwide "hobby."(3) *Each individual point is supported by a single source, which I do not find to be sufficient as evidence. Any scientist will also deny sufficieny from a single source*

Collectors douse the coral reefs with cyanide*Does not state why collectors use cyanide, is it to preserve a specimen? Or is it because the collector likes to see the coral suffer?*, which is ingested by the fish who live there, and as reported in Scientific American, "[t]he resulting asphyxiation stuns some fish and sends others into spasms, making them easy to grab by hand or net."(4) Half the affected fish die on the reef, and 40 percent of those who survive the initial poisoning die before they reach an aquarium.(5) Cyanide also kills the coral reefs themselves, and marine biologists rank it as one of the biggest dangers in Southeast Asian waters.(6)
*If 'collector' euphemism for "Fish and coral murdering aquarium keeper" then it is palpable that anything that would harm a fish would not be used. Saltwater fish aren't exactly the cheapest thing in the world. Example - Flourish Excel has a tendency to kill shrimp when the recommended dosage is used. Many shrimp keepers do not let both of them touch the same tank*

Goldfish are usually raised in giant tubs on fish farms that raise as many as 250 million fish per year.(7)*Does not state the size of the tub and how many fish are kept inside at a time. As fishkeepers, we do know what ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate poisoning is. Many betta breeders also know what that specific types of fish fry release hormones (even African Dwarf frogs) which slows down the growth rate of any other fry around them. What this tells us is that there is a limit to how many fish are kept there at once, what type of care is taken, and what type of filtration is required.* These animals are sold to zoos, pet stores, and bait shops, and many are doomed to live in plastic bags or bowls, neither of which provides the space or oxygen that goldfish need.*I've never seen a goldfish in a pet store inside a bowl. I am almost certain that people do not raise fish in plastic bags.* The city of Monza, Italy, banned keeping goldfish in bowls because the containers do not meet the needs of the animals and because, as one sponsor of the law pointed out, bowls give fish "a distorted view of reality."(8) *Quote mining, also does not explain what they are trying to do with the quote. One of the basic laws of essay writing - Never end with a quote.*
*It is also the spotlight fallacy again, they bring up a negative side of fish keeping and concentrate on it.*

Some fish farms are seeking new market niches by creating fish breeds that would never occur in nature, treating fish as ornaments instead of living animals. Some breeders even "paint" fish by injecting fluorescent dyes into the animals' bodies or altering their genetic makeup to make them more attractive to buyers.(9)
*Spotlight fallacy - Focuses on a negative aspect, notice the first word is "some" and not all. It should also be mentioned that they talk about hybrids and then jump to fish painting, without talking about why hybrids are bad. They also don't mention that a lot of hybrids can live longer and healthier lives than regular fish due to a larger gene pool. The logic in this essay is inconsistent, they begin by talking about a debateable 95% wild caught fish and then jump to talk about breeding hybrids and "painting" fish when in fact they jump from saltwater to freshwater. You can't expect a stupid 12-year old (Who would really be the only one to support their group) without any knowledge of aquaria to understand this.
I've also heard that it is possible to paint fish with foods, no injection needed. *

Fish Can Speak, Make Tools, and Think *Irrelevant*
Fish have cognitive abilities that equal and sometimes surpass those of non-human primates. They can recognize individuals, use tools, and maintain complex social relationships.(10) Biologists wrote in Fish and Fisheries that fish are "steeped in social intelligence, pursuing Machiavellian strategies of manipulation, punishment and reconciliation, exhibiting stable cultural traditions, and co-operating to inspect predators and catch food."(11)
Fish communicate with one another through a range of low-frequency sounds-from buzzes and clicks to yelps and sobs. These sounds, which are audible to humans only with the use of special instruments, communicate emotional states such as alarm or delight and help with courtship.(12) The pumps and filters necessary in many home aquariums can interfere with this communication. "[A]t the least, we're disrupting their communication; at worst, we're driving them bonkers," says ichthyologist Phillip Lobel.(13)
*Irrelevant*

What You Can Do
Please don't support the tropical fish trade by purchasing fish.*Yeah, support it by buying aquariums and catching your fish from a river >.<* If you enjoy watching fish, consider downloading one of the many colorful and realistic fish computer screensavers available on the Web.*Realistic? Speak to ANY ethologist, computerized fish only react to stimuli and I guess you can say are just "input and output". I guess realistic to them means fake, I swear that their last section was titled "Fish Can Speak, Make Tools, and Think". I didn't know my computer fish could speak, make tools, and god forbid my computer can think.
* Don't support businesses or fairs that give fish away in contests or promotions.*I do have to agree with this one sentence* In the United Kingdom and Wales, it is illegal to give fish as "prizes"*I think there should be a similar law in Canada, but only to public events, and not things such as fish or reptile expos* or sell animals to children under the age of 16, and guardians must provide a "suitable environment" for all animals.(14) A similar law is in effect in Reggio Emilia, Italy.(15)


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Siamese fighting fish, who are often sold as "decorations" or party favors, are fighting for their lives as their popularity grows *Assumption fallacy*. Pet shops *Because no one would ever think pet stores would have bettas...*, discount superstores, florists, and even online catalogs sell Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens)*AQUABID IS SIN!* in tiny cups or flower vases to consumers who are often uneducated about proper betta care. Many people mistakenly believe that betta fish must be confined alone *Yeah, I'm going to give me male decoration betta a friend... Great fucking job PETA!* and that they can survive without being fed in a so-called "complete ecosystem"*I see no evidence for this claim, that "many people" believe this, a number of people in the fish hobby aren't idiots* that consists of nothing more than a vase and a plant. As a result, fish are sentenced to dull, lonely lives and slow deaths by starvation. These tiny containers are not suitable for any fish *Disagree, it is palpable why, that is the anticonceptualist mentalist but I see no reason to explain to a community of aquarists why a betta is fine in a vase assuming water changes are done. I keep my female breeding betta in a 1G vase*. While betta males do not get along well with each other, they are able to live with other types of fish in a "community" aquarium. *Community aquariums usually have fish of smaller varieties, male bettas have a tendency to attack fish with fancy fins like guppies. Other fish, such as zebra danios and cardinal tetras have a tendency to nip the fins of my bettas whenever I try to put them together. Filtration required for a community tank would have to create a water current so the fish can breathe, Bettas are labryinth breathers, water flow has a tendency to stress them.
Didn't they also say aquariums = bad?*

Biologists say that there is no safe way to return captive fish to their natural environments-which are often located in a completely different region of the world-because of the difficulty in locating such a habitat and the possibility of introducing disease to the other fish there *No source for this point?*. Researchers have found many species of non-native fish, including predatory species, living off the coast of Florida, and they attribute these populations to careless aquarium owners.(16)*Damn those careless aquarium owners!* These fish pose a real threat to native species. Never flush fish down the toilet in the hope of "freeing" them, as seen in the popular movie Finding Nemo. Even if a fish survived the shock of being put into the swirling fresh water, he or she would die a painful death in the plumbing system or at the water treatment plant.(17) *Oh no! What can I do with my unwanted betta?!*

*This is the best part*
If you already have fish, you can make their lives easier by providing them with an environment that is as much like their natural habitat as possible. While captive fish can never live natural lives, the following tips will help ensure that they are as happy as possible:

• The more space that fish have, the happier and healthier they will be. Their needs vary, so check with an expert or consult a good fish book to determine their requirements. One general guideline is that you should provide 3 gallons of water for every 1 inch of fish.(18) *Another general guideline is to use AqAdvisor or 1 inch per 1G for freshwater tropical. Another is 1 clown fish per 30G, god forbid you put a 2 inch clownfish in 5.5G...*
• Treat tap water properly before putting it in the aquarium, as most municipal water has chlorine in it, which can kill fish. The type of chemicals that you should use depends on your area's water. Consult with a local tropical fish supply store to determine the proper treatment. *Because fish store workers know everything. Also does not mention anything about chloramine*
• Different types of fish require different pH levels. Check the pH level daily for the first month and weekly thereafter. *Because there would be a reason that my RCS tank water's pH would swing from 6.2 to 9.99999 in a week for no reason*
• A filter to remove waste particles and noxious chemicals from the water is essential. Live plants help with this task and provide oxygen, shelter, hiding places, and the occasional snack. *This one is just silly.* 
• A properly working air pump is necessary to provide oxygen. *For all fish including bettas...*
• Fish need a constant temperature, generally between 68°F and 76°F, but you should check with a fish supply store *again, because fish store employees know everything about fish and are hired for their hobbyist passion and not retail experience* for information that is specific to the type of fish that you are keeping.(19) Automatic aquarium heaters monitor the water temperature and turn the heater on and off as needed. Attaching a small thermometer to the tank will help you ensure that the heater is functioning properly.
• The natural waste of fish emits ammonia, which can accumulate to toxic levels, so clean the tank regularly, but never empty the tank completely. Be sure to clean the glass well with a pad or a brush to prevent algae growth. *Because you wouldn't cycle your 10G tank before you put in your $1500 painted flowerhorn*
• Create places for the fish to hide and explore. Ceramic objects, natural rocks, and plants work well. Make sure that all objects are thoroughly cleaned and disinfected before they are put into the tank. Do not use metal objects, as they will rust. *Because I wouldn't know to clean anything I put in my tank, or to wash my hands before I do any tank work and wash my hands after said tank work*
• Be aware of the environment outside the aquarium. Suddenly switching on a bright light in a dark room can startle fish, and vibrations from a television or a stereo can alarm and stress them. *No evidence for vibrations stressing fish. It also doesn't suggest where I put an aquarium, it seems inconvient to put an aquarium in a room you would never go to. One of the rewards of fishkeeping is getting to watch them afterall*
• Keep all harmful chemicals away from the aquarium. Cigarette smoke, paint fumes, and aerosol sprays can be toxic if they are absorbed into the water. *Oh shit! So you're saying I don't smoke over my fish tank while spray painting the back black and trying to cover put the smell with Febreeze at the same time?*
• The aquarium should be in a spot where temperature and light are constant and controllable. Tropical fish supply stores may be able to advise you on the best amount of light for the fish you are keeping. Remember that direct sunlight and drafts from nearby doors or windows can change the water temperature, and fumes from a nearby kitchen or workshop can injure the fish. *Because UVA light is never important and you would not have a cover for your aquarium*
• Don't overfeed! Uneaten food and waste material are broken down into ammonia and nitrites, which are toxic. One expert recommends providing only as much food as your fish can eat in 30 seconds.(20) *Even though any LFS worker will tell you otherwise, but don't worry, obscurantism comes to the rescue! This guy is an expert afterall, so we can trust him right? I do have to mention that they source the expert as "Kyriakos". It's a single word, I don't understand why you would need to put that separate instead of saying "A fish experted named Kyriakos...". I really do bet his 10 guppies in a 30G tank with a heater sure are happy... Google Kyriakos, tell me who you findm because I seriously can't find anyone who is named Kyriakos and keep an aquarium.*
• If a fish seems sick or lethargic, take him or her to a vet. Fish can be medicated, anesthetized, given shots, and operated on, just like other animals. Take along a separate sample of the tank water. *Because I don't know how to identidy and treat fungus or parasites.*
• Most fish enjoy companionship. If you have a single fish, check with friends and neighbors to find another loner to adopt-but don't support the fish trade by going to a dealer. *Because we all know how lonely a flowerhorn is without a companion in a 55G*

The thing about PETA is that they are a bunch of uneducated mountebanks and fat teenage girls who try to sound important and want to be seen naked during their "I'd rather go naked than wear fur". When infact, suspicion is aroused even in the slowest person when they try to share their view.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

arinsi said:


> the tips given are just common knowledge most fish keepers already know
> 
> im disappointed of how this does not touch upon other critters that we keep in aquariums and the species that we selectively breed
> 
> ...


Most of the tips, I think most members of this forum will agree with me when I say, are extremely off.

In nature, fish are more prone to disease and parasites. In captivity, we are able to help treat that.

This is a PETA article afterall, they don't know how to do anything but focus on the most negative aspects of things, sort of like what I do. But they enjoy obscurantism and casuistry, which I find disgusting.



TBemba said:


> I kind of agree.
> 
> A lot of people are killing "Aquarium Pets" in alarming number. I would be curious to how long some people can keep a fish in their care alive?


I do have to agree with about 2 small points they bring up, but most of what they say is casuistry.

EDIT:

Sorry for the triple post, I reached the 10k character limit on the first one.


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## arinsi (Mar 14, 2010)

wow i just took time reading the tips
i see what you guys mean

@joe
i had a grade 9 math teacher who was named kyriako or however you spell it LOL


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

arinsi said:


> wow i just took time reading the tips
> i see what you guys mean
> 
> @joe
> my grade 9 math teachers kyriako or however you spell it LOL


He/she has an aquarium? Lol, the problem with their sourcing is that they didn't use a first name or even state the person's qualifications. They emphasized how much fish store workers so much. They could of easily said that their expert worked or works at a fish store or owns one and can easily get away with it.


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## arinsi (Mar 14, 2010)

the thing is a large amount of fishstore workers are average fishkeepers


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

People should stop eating vegtables because they scream when you cut them (1).



Sources:
(1) Some super credible newspaper or internet article I read once while on the subway. I think. Or I heard it on FOX.


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> People should stop eating vegtables because they scream when you cut them (1).
> 
> Sources:
> (1) Some super credible newspaper or internet article I read once while on the subway. I think. Or I heard it on FOX.


that is exactly why i am a meatatarian


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

that's very good of you. more people should be like byron.

I've personally eaten 3 different animals today.


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## Cypher (Apr 15, 2006)

Actually ameekplec, I believe you read that on the bbc website. Well... something along that line of thought... LOL:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926

Geez I guess PETA is going to have to change their name to PETAP...and they're probably going start going after the veggie farmers eh?

lol @ PETA... wonder what they're going to do for solid food now? Freeze water and eat it probably. 



ameekplec. said:


> People should stop eating vegtables because they scream when you cut them (1).
> 
> Sources:
> (1) Some super credible newspaper or internet article I read once while on the subway. I think. Or I heard it on FOX.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Cypher said:


> Actually ameekplec, I believe you read that on the bbc website. Well... something along that line of thought... LOL:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10598926
> 
> ...


Rocks are always a tasty and nutritious alternative...

EDIT:
I forgot to mention, I can always give them a few fish pellets...


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Joee, did you just finish a philosophy and logic course? Some of your arguments don't hold any more water than their's. Fact of the matter is there is a lot of abuse in the pet trade, and it is fuelled by money. Goldfish are a good example 85% end up as feeders, and you know what happens to most of the rest. While that may not be abuse, it is the reality of the situation. People have been trying to stop the use of cyanide for many years, by demonstrating alternate means to catch reef fish. In order to be successful, you need to offer an incentive to do it in a more eco friendly, but more difficult way; offer more money. It is a lot to expect fish collectors in 3rd world areas to subsidize our whims. If we want them to be responsible and protect their environment, because we have a vested interest, than we need to become part of the solution, not remain part of the problem.
The sad reality is that the vast majority of fish that end up in aquariums live a short life due to improper care. If they didn't Big Al's would not be able to move the volume of product they need to to stay in business.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

BillD said:


> Joee, did you just finish a philosophy and logic course? Some of your arguments don't hold any more water than their's. Fact of the matter is there is a lot of abuse in the pet trade, and it is fuelled by money. Goldfish are a good example 85% end up as feeders, and you know what happens to most of the rest. While that may not be abuse, it is the reality of the situation. People have been trying to stop the use of cyanide for many years, by demonstrating alternate means to catch reef fish. In order to be successful, you need to offer an incentive to do it in a more eco friendly, but more difficult way; offer more money. It is a lot to expect fish collectors in 3rd world areas to subsidize our whims. If we want them to be responsible and protect their environment, because we have a vested interest, than we need to become part of the solution, not remain part of the problem.
> The sad reality is that the vast majority of fish that end up in aquariums live a short life due to improper care. If they didn't Big Al's would not be able to move the volume of product they need to to stay in business.


I don't understand the consistency of the first two sentences.

Yes, a lot of 'abuse' does happen in the pet trade. However, the way that PETA tries to portray it is outrageous. They say that saltwater fish 'suffer miserably when they are forced to spend their lives in glass tanks. The same is true of river fish.' Without providing any evidence for that statement. They also do not mention that these 250 million goldfish from these fish farms are often sold as feeders and even then, I don't see using a fish to feed another fish as wrong. They should also talk about becoming educated about the care of your pet fish.

Truthbetold, I'm not a saltwater person and I don't do very much research into saltwater methods to catch fish. But the way the article was written is quite confusing:



> Collectors douse the coral reefs with cyanide, which is ingested by the fish who live there, and as reported in Scientific American, "[t]he resulting asphyxiation stuns some fish and sends others into spasms, making them easy to grab by hand or net."(4) Half the affected fish die on the reef, and 40 percent of those who survive the initial poisoning die before they reach an aquarium.(5) Cyanide also kills the coral reefs themselves, and marine biologists rank it as one of the biggest dangers in Southeast Asian waters.(6)


To a layman such as myself, the term "Collector" is very vague. What first comes to mind is someone with an aquarium who collects rare corals and by "douse" they refer to "dousing the aquarium". If they put the word fish infront of collector, then it would leave much less room for misinterpretation.

If they were to redo this article, then they really should try and do something about the obscurantism and be a little more specific in general areas. They should also say "Become educated about what care your pet requires" instead of "Don't buy fish from your local fish store and buy from a reputable breeder". They could even say to write to your local newspaper, or to a congressperson (as they are an American organization), or even to tell your friends. I don't understand why they had to take one of the two extremes.

I do agree that there are things unfavourable (euphemism...) in the pet trade. However, the way PETA tries to get that point across is just ridiculous.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

While I'm no fan of PETA, a lot of the arguments and information they present on the fish trade are sadly true.

I can't be bothered writing responses to your analysis of their information Joee, but I imagine I would have about as many problems as you did with theirs.


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

I think PETA should go after the BIG multi national corporations,the Political organizations that support these multi nationals and see how far they get, the true hobbyist has some of the rare and/or indangered spieces of fish that they care for and try to keep the breed going. My opinion of Peta is a bunch of people just trying to get headlines such as washed up actresses? Peta go pound salt.


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## characinfan (Dec 24, 2008)

The fish trade as a whole is quite messed up and there are a lot of casualties and suffering. On the other hand, without first-hand exposure to living creatures, how are people -- especially people in cities, who don't see much nature in their everyday lives -- going to learn about how fascinating these creatures are? And how will people become motivated to protect them? I think it's fair as well to say that nobody on this forum wants to see fish or inverts suffer, and we want to give our pets a good life.

While there will always be individuals and companies willing to do things unethically in order to make bigger profits, we as a community can avoid them and support ethical suppliers such as Project Piaba instead. This is where PETA's argument falls short. Fishkeeping isn't going to disappear just because PETA says it's all harmful, but the unethical treatment of aquatic animals -- supposedly PETA's goal -- can be reduced greatly if *we* put our efforts into it by putting our money toward responsible suppliers and not into the hands of people who don't care about anything else.

C.


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> People should stop eating vegtables because they scream when you cut them (1).
> 
> Sources:
> (1) Some super credible newspaper or internet article I read once while on the subway. I think. Or I heard it on FOX.


That and often times the plants are still alive when you put then in the fridge to keep them lasting longer thus prolonging thier suffering before to murderously slaughter it by cutting it's fibers. Oh the horrors... 

Just found this one..

http://www.breitbart.tv/peta-pod-over-clubs-shark-filled-aquarium-dance-floor/


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

PETA can sink themselves to the sea floor with an anchor.


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## Web Wheeler (May 13, 2006)

In my opinion, animal rights groups, such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) and the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) have no more of a moral ground to stand upon than does Ronald McDonald:

OSU SCIENTIST QUESTIONS THE MORAL BASIS OF A VEGAN DIET

And, they certainly don't have a clue what they're doing when they attempt to "rescue" anything.

The truth is that there's a LOT OF MONEY to be made tugging at people's heartstrings, which PETA and HSUS have become very good at.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

*Assumption fallacy*... lol


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)




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## vrb th hrb (Feb 20, 2010)




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