# Too many Otos and amanos?!



## default (May 28, 2011)

Too many otos and amanos?! Is there a limit??
I just recently added a ton of Otos amanos to my tanks, as more plants grow in, it seems the initial numbers weren't keeping up with the different levels of foliage..
So the most dramatic, I added 20 Otos and 10 amanos to an existing high tech planted.
Totalling the clean up crew in there:
22 Otos
Around 20-25 amano shrimps

All in a 29 gallon.

My other tanks usually consisted of majority amanos, but I went nuts and bought so many especially for this tank.. Now looks awfully insane with schools of Otos and amanos in every crevice..
So is there too much?? Heard most "plant heads" use a ratio of how many per gallon? And heard Amano himself overkill it?
Advice would be appreciated.


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## Dman (May 1, 2012)

Wow that's alot! They still do make waste... I would use Amanos more then otos but do you have any string algee growing or just reg algee? If cherry shrimp will survive in your tank IDE think that would b better then all those otos lol but I'm sure it looks really cool


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Ottos are not the easiest fish to keep. They will be happy with the company (the more the merrier), but you have to make up for the lack of food. Make sure you get them used to blanched zuccini, and feed them large pieces each week.

Not sure about the amanos. Honestly, i wouldnt even have put that much in my 75 gallon planted tank.... Maybe other member can chip in as well.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

I'd put 22 in a 75gallon no issue, maybe in a 40gallon even. But a 29gallon seems a bit small in my opinion territory wise.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

The short answer is that you won't know if this works for a few months at least - now follows the longer answer.

When I set up my first 30 G, which I know is really only 29 G.. I ended up with very high stocking numbers. Over enthusiasm, after many decades without any fish tanks, got the better of me early on. But, because I knew the numbers had become quite high, I was running a pair of Aqua Clears, one 70, one 50, a big sponge & a small internal canister, one in each back corner. I also did extra water changes and planted pretty heavily too. 

I started with 20 Ghost shrimp, which are about the same size as Amanos. Then I added a dozen Blue Claw Whisker shrimp, which are twice the size of Ghosts or Amanos and a few very young Snowball shrimp. 

Then a few Bamboo shrimp, half a dozen snails, Mystery and Nerite, and 3 clams. I had two Zebra Danios to begin with, then got a few more different Danios, half a dozen Kuhli loaches, to start with, 8 Otos. A bit later, a few small corys. All were added within the first couple of months after the tank cycled.

Because the tank was in a south window, I was absolutely positive I would have major algae problems. That was one reason I went overboard on the numbers of algae eaters - I was sure I'd need them, but the expected algae never showed up.

3 Otos survived from the 8. Otos are, sadly, extremely fragile because of the terrible way they are caught and handled. Even if they appear to be eating well, you simply can't be sure how many will survive until at least 8 weeks after you bring them home. 

Whisker shrimp numbers dropped. I was going to sell them, and sold one, but then learned I had only 3 left. Ghost numbers declined also, but more slowly. But Ghosts actually reproduced successfully in this tank, in small numbers, which led me to think they were happy enough in there. The Whiskers also bred regularly. None of their hatchlings survived because they need brackish water to morph, but they did breed often. Snowballs bred and increased too, though slowly, no doubt from predation on the babies from the fish and other shrimp.

I have a few theories on why the Ghost and Whisker shrimp numbers declined. Perhaps old age for some - I don't know how long they are supposed to live, but it's not that long, with no way to know how old they are when you get them. Perhaps stress from overcrowding shortened their life spans - stress is known to have such effects on many species.

But the Fan shrimp did really well and so did the Snowballs, at least until I removed them to their own tank, and the fish appeared to be doing well. So perhaps crowding was not such an issue.. all the critters live in various levels of the column and I had loads of wood, rock and plants, so hiding was easy. So my third theory is temperature stress. Until I got fans set up properly last summer, I had more than one or two days with extremely high temperatures when the first heat waves hit.

Many shrimp do poorly with very high temps. Ghosts for sure, and quite probably Whiskers as well, don't like it warm. I also lost a couple of Danios to dropsy in the summer. It is thought it may be related to poor parameters or stress, but it was only two fish, both Leopard Danios.. and there have been no others. Perhaps Leopard Danios are more susceptible to temperature stress ? Due to factors beyond my control, even this winter the tanks got to 90 F a few times, because it is very hot in here. I had to get the fans going again.. and hopefully caught the problem in time to prevent any long term effects. I've had one or two fish jump, one or two shrimp jump, and one Bamboo male went for a long walk from which he did not return. That kind of thing happens now and then if you have open top tanks like I do.

Fwiw, I think if all you have are the Otos and Amanos, likely the shrimp will be ok but with the Otos, you just won't know for awhile. Otos don't like it warm either, so keep temps under control. I would be careful about adding anything else though. If you do, make it something small that swims at the top of the water column and ensure you have more than enough filtration and WCs.

Because shrimp will eat anything dead, losses may not be very obvious at first. Dead critters may be entirely eaten before you ever have a chance to see them. Plants make it hard to see and count and shrimp are just plain hard to count.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I too am more worried about your ottos than the Amanos. Was your tank green (alga green) when you introduced the ottos?

I have 3 ottos in a 10 gallon tank, along with RCS, Amanos, Spixi Snails and MTS, all of which like algas to some point, though maybe different ones. My tank was very well established, and there is flow current as Fishfur had suggested to me that ottos like, and i waited till the walls were green before aquiring them, and did the slow aclimitazation. The green alga was gone within a few days from the walls, and the ottos didint jump around everywhere like monkeys anymore. 

I think, though cannot say for sure, the reason they are still doing well is the zunnini i add weekly. I was successfull in getting them used to Zuccini, and usually take a big piece, blanck it, leave it in a tank water in a little cup for a day, then add it to the tank, and usually the Ottos go for it, maybe not all at the same time. Of course, the rcs / amanos / snails also go for it, thus why the piece has to be big. The rate of success was better leaving the zuccini in for a day in the water, before introducing it, though if you dont have all the rcs / snails, you can put it in right away, but the ottos probably wont touch it for at least 24 hours. 

I think with that many ottos, you want to maximize their chances by adding extra food, and hopefully, they will get used to it after a few try. Ottos is a fantastic fish, and go along well with dwarf corys, which they sometimes swim / eat with. Some may die due to how they were brought in, but never hurts increasing your odds.

As for the amanos, they also eat zuccini / veggi fish food, so they are much more easily handled, vs the ottos, in general anyways.

Edit: Note, some say the rule of tumb is 1 otto per 10 gallon... I cheated this rule, as i know they are social fish really need that companionship, but was ready for it. Either way, good luck.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

With Otos, the biggest problem is that they rely on gut bacteria to digest all that algae they like so much. They are caught wild using cyanide, and then held until there are enough to ship and I doubt they are fed much if anything. So they begin to starve and the bacteria begin to die off. I suspect the die off itself may be somewhat toxic to the Otos.

So the bacteria they need to digest their food die off, so the fish are truly starving when they get to the stores. Those that survive for even a week or two are the ones that still have some bacteria in their guts and are the strongest. But it takes time for them to repopulate their gut flora to the point where numbers are high enough to keep the fish healthy.

Even if they are eating like pigs, they may die, because without the gut bacteria, they won't get enough nutrients from the food to remain alive. So while it is very good to provide them with enough of the right foods, you really have to wait and see whether you have fish that are strong enough to get past the starvation long enough to have their guts go back to normal. 

The last batch of Otos I bought have now lived nearly 3 months and are doing well. I have not lost even one of them. I'm very pleased, but they did not look any different than the first batch I got, where most of them died. Personally I would far rather buy tank raised Otos, if I could possibly get them.

And they do like a current in their tank. They come from river environments where there is always current, so it's good to provide one in the aquarium.


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up guys, and I've had my personal experiences with both, my amanos have always grown to Godzilla sized shrimps, have had about 40 in a 53 gallon and they turned blue and green with a 2"+ length.

However with Otos.. I've almost normally purchase 8-10 at a time, but usually only 2 lives.. No matter what.. Same with my buddies. However I feel confident about these ones as they were destroying a wafer when I picked them up.

However I might split them into smaller tanks since I also feel that many Otos are alitte overkill.. Lol. But they are schooling like crazy which is amazing.

And to answer the algae question.. I don't actually have any algae except occasional GDA and GSA on the rocks and glass, with maybe some diatom on staurogynes there's actually not much in the tank. I do plan on feeding them as I normally do, just the amanos are pigs when it comes to food as they don't share..
But stock wise, I know and experienced, Otos and amanos have possibly one of the smallest bioload for algae eaters, well lets not talk about cherries that have the smallest followed by the smallest stomach 
This tank has about 12-15 Kerri emperors, peacock gudgeons, and other small tetras. The remainder are Otos and amanos. All being filtered by a eheim g65 in addition to about 2 WC a week about 25%.
Tank is crystal clean with these guys.. Lol and they make my tank pearl at about 1000% more since they go through the plants lol.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

thanks for sharing, i would have loved to have an swarm of ottos schooling togheter.


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## default (May 28, 2011)

zfarsh said:


> thanks for sharing, i would have loved to have an swarm of ottos schooling togheter.


Do it! My old ones are like more than 2x the size and they hate when the swarm approaches and darts away. Just dropped in some wafers and they were greedily ripped apart by the amanos..


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Love to see a pic of this tank. My older Amanos also grew to quite a size and were quite attractive.

But I am always rooting for the Otos, they get such a harsh deal before they become our pets. So I hope they go on to live long happy lives. I would like to get a few more, as for now, I have only 3 in one tank and 2 in another. I doubt they are likely to want to breed unless there are few more to feel comfortable with. I'm just always afraid the ones I buy will be a bad lot like the first one was. Had I known the second lot I got would do so well I'd have got more of them.

Meantime, even though the fish numbers are now down a bit, the community tank I began with is doing well. In fact it desperately needs trimming, the guppy grass has taken over all the swimming space again. Love the way it looks, but I wish it grew a bit more slowly. Hate to think what it will do when I get the C02 going.. might have guppy grass Godzilla on my hands !


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Uploaded a pic of some Otos going through the stauro carpet. Bubbles are pearling from plants(so much more in real life) since these guys went in with the amanos, they're dislodging bubbles from under the leaves. So there are a lot of bubbles in the water column.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Very nice indeed. Plants are beautiful, Otos look happy enough, though I sometimes wonder, how can you really tell if a fish is 'happy' ? 

I guess we assume they are if they're eating and swimming and generally behaving as we think they should be, or as their tank mates do.

I hope the assumption is valid.. and no, I don't lose a lot of sleep wondering about it. Just now and then, this sort of thought strays across my brain - humans do so much, what is the wretched word, it escapes me when I want, dangit !. anthropormorphizing, that's it !, where our pets are concerned.


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## lovevc (Nov 24, 2010)

amanos are amazing, in my 65g i have crap load of hair algae and bba. i put in 18 amanos, they cleaned the whole tank within 2 weeks.
ottos? i dont think they're that effective, but it's one of my favorite fish, these little suckers look so cute, and theyre very peaceful and timid 

for ur tank i say 10 amanos and 10 ottos are good enough


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Fishfur said:


> Very nice indeed. Plants are beautiful, Otos look happy enough, though I sometimes wonder, how can you really tell if a fish is 'happy' ?
> 
> I guess we assume they are if they're eating and swimming and generally behaving as we think they should be, or as their tank mates do.
> 
> I hope the assumption is valid.. and no, I don't lose a lot of sleep wondering about it. Just now and then, this sort of thought strays across my brain - humans do so much, what is the wretched word, it escapes me when I want, dangit !. anthropormorphizing, that's it !, where our pets are concerned.


Lol, I judge their happiness through their appetite and appearance.. If they don't seem to be interested in food or just look dull.. I'm changing the water or trying something to change that. The Otos in the tanks look happy.. I haven't even cleaned the GSA in the tank as it dosent even bother me, and they'll have a constant supplie of food.
Amanos just had a nice feeding of bloodworms today so everyone seems quite well.


lovevc said:


> amanos are amazing, in my 65g i have crap load of hair algae and bba. i put in 18 amanos, they cleaned the whole tank within 2 weeks.
> ottos? i dont think they're that effective, but it's one of my favorite fish, these little suckers look so cute, and theyre very peaceful and timid
> 
> for ur tank i say 10 amanos and 10 ottos are good enough


Overkilled it.. 
And I find Otos good for cleaning anything the amanos can't reach - glass, heaters, intakes/outflows. I enjoy the school of them as well, although their number seems smaller..


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