# PH and water hardness?????



## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

How can I raise the PH of the water and hardness naturally? I need to do this soon but I don't want to use PH up and stuff like that.

Thanks


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I believe the sand for Africans will do it. I'm sure there's someone here who will know for sure.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

matti2uude said:


> I believe the sand for Africans will do it. I'm sure there's someone here who will know for sure.


Do you know what this sand is called? I dont keep africans and never will so I have never looked into it.

Thanks Matt


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I think it's this kind
http://www.bigalsonline.ca/StoreCat...f-CAD-17303##2##14&query=sand&hits=12&offset=
But I'm not positive, I've never used it.
Check out this article it says it buffers the water which is what you're looking for
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/sand.php


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

crushed coral should raise the pH and kH


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris S said:


> crushed coral should raise the pH and kH


+1. The best way to raise pH and kH gradually over a period of time is with crushed coral (you can even place it into a mesh bag (or pantyhose...) and put it into your filter.


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> +1. The best way to raise pH and kH gradually over a period of time is with crushed coral (you can even place it into a mesh bag (or pantyhose...) and put it into your filter.


+2

That would be one of the best ways. You don't want to use CC as a substrate. It could injure you plecs.

It's more efficient in your filter as well since water is constantly flowing through.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Why do you need to raise the pH and hardness? Toronto water works well for Lake Malawi and most common Lake Tanganyika fish. 

Note that using crushed coral or oyster shell or whatever will also raise the GH gradually. If you want to raise pH and KH only, use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). It will raise pH to a maximum of 8.3. If you need it more alkaline, sodium carbonate will take it up to 10+, IIRC. Both of these are soluble and act immediately.

One problem with adjusting your water parameters is that it complicates water changes, since the new water will change the parameters of the whole tank unless you modify it before you add it. Fish can adjust better to parameters outside their preferred range than to constant change.

Where are your new hard-water fish coming from? What kind of water are they in now?


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

I a DH of 18-25
Ph of 8.0-8.3
kh of 4-6 meg/L ( what the heck does this mean LOL )

It is for my Turtle. I cant use another substrate all the ones I looked at are way too dangerous for it.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

What kind of turtle is it?

Have you tested what your water is currently? (probably similar to mine!)


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Chris S said:


> What kind of turtle is it?
> 
> Have you tested what your water is currently? (probably similar to mine!)


Its a Carettochelys insculpta. It is doing fine in the water it is in now but that does not mean it is really happy in it.

What would be the best way to raise the PH and hardness?

I also dont get this "kh of 4-6 meg/L"


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Jackson said:


> Its a Carettochelys insculpta. It is doing fine in the water it is in now but that does not mean it is really happy in it.
> 
> What would be the best way to raise the PH and hardness?
> 
> I also dont get this "kh of 4-6 meg/L"


I wouldn't think pH and hardness would be all that important to a turtle, as long as it isn't too extreme and the water stays clean. Turtles don't have permeable skins like fish and amphibians do, but I'm no turtle expert. They do need calcium in their diets and either vitamin D3 or exposure to sunlight or UV or they can have problems keeping their shells healthy.

To generalize largely, KH is a measure of the amount of buffering, i.e. resistance to pH change, by carbonates. Anything that increases carbonate will increase KH. GH is a measure of the amount of 'hard water' ions, in practice, magnesium and calcium. Coral, limestone, oyster shell, etc are all calcium carbonate and will increase both KH and GH, and pH too. Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate and gypsum is calcium sulfate. They will increase GH but not KH or pH. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and sodium carbonate will increase KH and pH but not GH.

The number for KH that you have is probably in meq/l -- milliequivalents per liter. This is a metric of buffering capacity.

If you want an explanation about why bicarbonates and carbonates both increase and stabilize pH, let me know. I don't want to blather on about chemistry if people aren't interested.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

bae said:


> I wouldn't think pH and hardness would be all that important to a turtle, as long as it isn't too extreme and the water stays clean. Turtles don't have permeable skins like fish and amphibians do, but I'm no turtle expert. They do need calcium in their diets and either vitamin D3 or exposure to sunlight or UV or they can have problems keeping their shells healthy.
> 
> To generalize largely, KH is a measure of the amount of buffering, i.e. resistance to pH change, by carbonates. Anything that increases carbonate will increase KH. GH is a measure of the amount of 'hard water' ions, in practice, magnesium and calcium. Coral, limestone, oyster shell, etc are all calcium carbonate and will increase both KH and GH, and pH too. Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate and gypsum is calcium sulfate. They will increase GH but not KH or pH. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and sodium carbonate will increase KH and pH but not GH.
> 
> ...


This turtle I have is not like the rest it needs these conditions to thrive and be healthy. Its shell is very very sensitive as well as it's skin.

I would like to hear more. The more I know the better 

How can I messure the meg/l?

What is the safest way too raise the PH, GH and KH? I cant risk the safety of my turtle it is my baby 

Thanks for your time


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

BUMP 

I really need to know what to do for my little turtle.

Thanks


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Jackson said:


> This turtle I have is not like the rest it needs these conditions to thrive and be healthy. Its shell is very very sensitive as well as it's skin.
> 
> I would like to hear more. The more I know the better
> 
> ...


Well, as I said, I'm no expert on turtles. Maybe you can get better advice on a reptile forum. I'm reluctant to give you advice from my ignorance.

You can mess around with various chemicals to increase hardness and raise pH, but if the turtle has sensitive skin you may do more harm than good. If the turtle appears to have healthy skin and shell, and acts healthy, good appetite and growth, etc, Toronto water may be just fine for it.

You can get an analysis of Toronto water at http://www.toronto.ca/water/publications. Alkalinity averages about 85mg/L, hardness as CaCO3 averages 122mg/L and pH averages 7.7.

1dGH = 17.86 ppm CaCO3, so Toronto water has a GH (or DH) of about 6.8

Alkalinity is supposed to be expressed in meq/L, but the document has mg/L, which may be a typo. It includes all relevant anions, not just carbonate, but phosphates, sulfates, etc. Technically it's a metric of how much acid would be required to reduce the pH to a specified level. I.e. it's a measure of buffering capacity or resistance to pH change. A really crude and inaccurate conversion to KH would be to divide by that same 17.86 and get 4.75.

Water chemistry can be awfully confusing if you don't have a basic background in chemistry, and alkalinity as used by aquarists is pretty confusing even if you do. One source of information is on that old standby site http://www.thekrib.com.

I hope you can get better advice about caring for your turtle than I can give you.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

..................................


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks Bae


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Jackson said:


> Thanks
> 
> I don't need advice on how to care for the turtle I just want to know a safe way to raise the PH and hardness with out chems. I see people mention using crushed corals and shells. Where can you get these shells? The crushed coral I know where I can buy it.


Well, you can't really raise either without chemicals. Baking soda is a chemical, after all -- sodium bicarbonate. Ditto, coral and oyster shells are calcium carbonate. You can read about how to modify water chemistry on the Krib or other sites.

You can get oyster shell grit from farm supply stores -- it's used as a grit and calcium supplement for poultry. It's pretty cheap in large quantities, but you don't need all that much so you'd probably be further ahead with the crushed coral. If you think it wouldn't be good for the turtle to contact it, put it in your filter.



> Lets say I was asking how to accomplish this so I can keep Africans. What advice would you give me? The fish are more sensitive than the turtle is to change. It is just that I need these perams to make sure it does not develop skin disease and so on. These perams help prevent it.


Well, as I said before, most African cichlids do fine in Lake Ontario tap water. People who raise the more delicate Lake Tanganyika species use baking soda and epsom salts to increase pH, hardness and alkalinity, AFAIK. Of course, you have to treat all fresh water before you add it. You can also buy rift lake cichlid salt mixtures that give you water comparable to those lakes, but that can get expensive if you change a lot of water.



> Do the test we can buy from the LFS measure KH in meq/l? If not what reading should I want on the tests from the LFS when measuring KH?


AFAIK, the tests don't give a reading in meq/l, but in KH, which is supposed to be carbonate hardness. There's some discussion on the Krib site about what they really measure, and the consensus is that it's alkalinity, not really KH.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

What is AFIAK LOL

Thanks

Sorry my last posts got screwed up i wanted to paste a link but I cut it and did not see before I saved.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Jackson said:


> What is AFIAK LOL


This means "As far as I know" and then "Laugh out loud"


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Jackson said:


> Bae~
> 
> I have been doing some reading LOL
> 
> ...


Looks like you posted again while I was writing the previous message.

KH is a measure of 'carbonate hardness'. Alkalinity includes carbonate as well as other anions that are involved in pH buffering. I don't recall what KH you're after, but I think we figured that Toronto tap water is about 4.75. I don't really think you have to worry about KH, since you're starting out with a reasonable level, and adding baking soda will increase it.

Baking soda will increase pH and alkalinity (and KH). The highest the pH will go with baking soda is about 8.3, i.e. adding more won't increase the pH. Yes, the baking soda makes a carbonate buffer, so you don't need or want to add any other buffer.

Whether higher alkalinity is better depends on the circumstances. Some fish need very soft, pure water. Such water usually has very low alkalinity and the pH can swing rapidly. Other fish are more tolerant, or even require higher alkalinity, but every critter has a limit on how high it gets before it becomes irritating or toxic.

I hope all thsi has helped, but I don't want to feel responsible for what you do with your turtle's water, so I recommend you keep reading and figure out how to calculate what to add to modify it. Probably my best advice would be to go back to the source of those ideal numbers you quoted and find out how critical they are. If there are people breeding these turtles, they might be the best source of advice on how important these water parameters are.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Darkblade48 said:


> This means "As far as I know" and then "Laugh out loud"


I added the LOL


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Thank you Bae 

I have all the info I need 


You were very helpful


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