# The Idea Of Guaranteeing.



## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

ok so you buy a fish from the store and you quarantine them for few weeks to see if there are any diseases.

after watching videos and reading a lot of posts theres mixed reviews on this. both with success.

people that have been in the hobby that have couple hundred gallon tanks on youtube state that when they buy there fish from the fish store they go for obviously the healthy one but also the bigger chunky one because they can handle diseases better than a skinny under fed one. so they throw them in there display tank and they are fine. if they buy a less healthier fish that doesnt seem to be doing to well and not eating much they quarantine.

now theres the others that quarantine as soon as they get the fish and leave them in small quarantine setup for few weeks. some even a week.

what do you guys do and has it worked well?


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

I don't care if it's saltwater or freshwater anyone who just tosses new fish in are playing with fire. 

Best thing to save you stress and money is to just set up the QT and observe the fish for at least 2-4 weeks


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Qt, weeks to months. For my marine tank, no other way. Marine diseases are a bitch to get rid of compared to FW parasites/bugs.

For FW, I'm a bit more relaxed namely because I'm better with dealing with things. 


Guys who do that on youtube also frequently buy fish because they frequently have them die. Again, don't do everything you see on youtube


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Not everyone has the option of setting up a QT tank. I know I don't, so I only buy livestock from reputable stores. I ask them how long the fish has been in the store, and look them over to check for any sign of disease.


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## nso_168 (Sep 22, 2011)

solarz said:


> Not everyone has the option of setting up a QT tank. I know I don't, so I only buy livestock from reputable stores. I ask them how long the fish has been in the store, and look them over to check for any sign of disease.


Reputable does not equate to selling live stocks that are disease/parasite free. It is impractical for LFS to do this unless they have this in their business model, and probably selling live stocks at a much higher price that most of us don't want to spend. Public aquariums do their quarantee, and some of them have aquariums larger than any of us combined. Every live stock carries some level of disease and parasites, you may not see it, but we have to make (a good) assumption they are there. It may not even be in the live stock, the unwanted stuff may be just floating in the water (a fresh water dip may reduce the risk). They can spread, and outbreak, easily in a confined space - the smaller the tank the higher the probability. I would even argue it is more important to quarantee if you have a large tank since the aftermath you have to deal with is worse - imagine you have to get a tang out of a 500G. Sure, this is the aquarist's choice, but unfortunately the fish does not have the option.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

nso_168 said:


> Reputable does not equate to selling live stocks that are disease/parasite free. It is impractical for LFS to do this unless they have this in their business model, and probably selling live stocks at a much higher price that most of us don't want to spend. Public aquariums do their quarantee, and some of them have aquariums larger than any of us combined. Every live stock carries some level of disease and parasites, you may not see it, but we have to make (a good) assumption they are there. It may not even be in the live stock, the unwanted stuff may be just floating in the water (a fresh water dip may reduce the risk). They can spread, and outbreak, easily in a confined space - the smaller the tank the higher the probability. I would even argue it is more important to quarantee if you have a large tank since the aftermath you have to deal with is worse - imagine you have to get a tang out of a 500G. Sure, this is the aquarist's choice, but unfortunately the fish does not have the option.


No, it does not guarantee a disease/parasite free fish, but it's the closest you can come without a QT tank.

You can tell a lot about the health of a fish from the way they are housed in the store. Reefquarium, for example, houses only a dozen baby occellaris and a few baby blue tangs in a 4-foot tank with excellent water flow.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Other things to look for in a LFS fish purchase as clear skin, good body weight and eagerness to eat. One area to look is the aquarium bottom, hopefully it's a bare bottom. Look for typical dark, solid fish poops. If you see white stringy fecal casings swirling around, it's not a tank to buy fish from.

Not a 100% preventative measure but it sure increases your odds.


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Just to add one point. If you hold just water in a QT tank and use no medications, then your playing with fire as well.

QT tanks should have equal/better chemistry than your DT and should be medicated.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

I quarantine all fish. 8 weeks minimum. Anything less is taking your chances. A week is way to low.



> QT tanks should have equal/better chemistry than your DT and should be medicated.


I use DT water for myt QT water changes. No acclimation needed when you move them over to the DT.



> Just to add one point. If you hold just water in a QT tank and use no medications, then your playing with fire as well


medicated with what?

Can't agree with that but each to his own methods that work . To medicate just for the sake of it concerns me because how do you know which one to use if the fish isn't showing any sign of disease? I know some people who medicate their fish with cupramine to prevent ich but they never know if they have it or not and it isn't great for the fish. Plus there are non medicated treatment options.

IMO The idea behind QT is to have it in an enclosed system to get the fish comfortable, get it eating without competition, reduce stress, observe then treat if needed. Because QT's are smaller systems parasites such as ich will infect the fish faster and bring it out so it can be treated.

There are some species that have a significant risk to certain problems (wrasses with worms for instance. Haven't had a wrasse yet that didn't have them and if I buy a fish that has wrasses in a tank at the lfs I assume it has worms too) but would never consider treating with cupramine, formalin or an anti-bacterial without seeing something first unless I know there is a good chance it is infected (came from an infected tank).

I have a little clown fish I picked up from a member here. I know it came from a system with ich but had also had the crap beaten out of it by a pair maroons. (the member was quite forthcoming with information so I knew what I was getting into)

It has been in quarantine since Oct. 16. I tried to get it to eat, and it wouldn't and wasn't sure why so I kept working on it testing different foods. Then saw white poop, no idea if it was from stress or worms  Finally got it eating, still white poop then treated with prazipro, exit worms stage right lol. Prazipro treatment recently finished so now we are looking at 15 days. During this time I also found it had 2 torn fins. Giving them time to heal.

Next onto hyposalinity, just started dropping the salinity today.

If I had dropped this fish into my DT, no way it would have survived this long. And high likelihood that my DT would also be infected with ich and fish could have worms too.

IMO if we want to keep animals, we have a duty to not only look after our new ones and give them a great chance for survival, but also a duty to protect the ones we already have. And also the idea of having to lay my DT in fallow for 8 weeks to get rid of ich.. my wife would kill me


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

BTW you can get problems from many sources not just fish. I did not QT and thought I was being careful when adding fish. I did well and then I added some live sand without thinking about it; voila, ICH. I tried many things to get rid of it in the DT, but ended up having to separate the fish to a QT and because it took so long I lost my favorite one. This was way more stressful then doing it in the first place. Lesson learned.

If you take your chances, here are some tips:

- Pick healthy specimens (obviously)
- Acclimate slowly until you feel most of the original water is gone
- Move fish with net so minimal water from acclimating container gets in DT
- Better yet is to have a small container with DT water, move specimen there and again move to DT. Better chance of isolating "suspect" water
- Use a breeder net($5) in DT and move specimen there. Same tank and easier to hit UNDO button

That's all I got.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Dax said:


> If you take your chances, here are some tips:
> 
> - Pick healthy specimens (obviously)
> - Acclimate slowly until you feel most of the original water is gone
> ...


These are good, but questions remains if they will follow these 

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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Dax said:


> BTW you can get problems from many sources not just fish. I did not QT and thought I was being careful when adding fish. I did well and then I added some live sand without thinking about it; voila, ICH. I tried many things to get rid of it in the DT, but ended up having to separate the fish to a QT and because it took so long I lost my favorite one. This was way more stressful then doing it in the first place. Lesson learned.
> 
> If you take your chances, here are some tips:
> 
> ...


If you really are going to take a risk then I would add a freshwater dip as well to your list.

But really, everyone should have a space for at least a small 10 gallon tank for a QT. Even having it on the kitchen counter. Unless you have some monster fish then you should have a big tank (and the req'd space) anyways.


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## nso_168 (Sep 22, 2011)

Tim said:


> But really, everyone should have a space for at least a small 10 gallon tank for a QT. Even having it on the kitchen counter. Unless you have some monster fish then you should have a big tank (and the req'd space) anyways.


Can't be more agree with this. IMO, quarantee is the most important thing to do to protect your live stock. BTW, it gives you an opportunity to have a second tank  To confess, I haven't tested the DT water params for 3 years and there has not been any casualty except one due to aggression. If I didn't quarantine new additions, the DT population probably could be down in 3 or 4 weeks after one mistake. (I have a small DT, so disease can spread rapidly.) I bought a "healthy" tang in a reputable LFS a few days earlier, fresh water dip it with methylene blue for >10 min, then in QT (14G) under 1.010. Guess what happened in the 3rd day - ich symptom. Am I worry - no  It is now under Cu treatment, and no sign of stress. He will be in QT long, but I know he will make it to the DT from what I can see him now. I am just wondering how many of those "healthy" fish in the same tank as him at the LFS now swimming in other aquarists' DT, and how many fish might have been infected. Can't blame the LFS, it is just the way it is - remember when nemo was introduced into the tank at the dentist place. Again, it is our choice as aquarists. Even taking the fish health aside, it is big trouble as well as patience to recover.


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

I've never qt'd anything. Guess I'm not paranoid.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

solarz said:


> You can tell a lot about the health of a fish from the way they are housed in the store. Reefquarium, for example, houses only a dozen baby occellaris and a few baby blue tangs in a 4-foot tank with excellent water flow.


All together? Tangs + anything = greater risk. I saw a beautifuil collection of baby tangs at big als and watched them all scratching themselves on rocks. Some you could even see the ich on them. In their tank they had some cranberry anthias and some wrasses. And the other 5 tanks that were linked to it.. well you get the idea.

QT everything. Even use a plastic bin if you have to.

One thing I hear is that the fish they get is a bit too big for a 10gal tank. Well then get a 20 gallon, not much more space taken up, if not get smaller fish. I love getting them small anyways because I love watching them grow up.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Tim said:


> All together? Tangs + anything = greater risk. I saw a beautifuil collection of baby tangs at big als and watched them all scratching themselves on rocks. Some you could even see the ich on them. In their tank they had some cranberry anthias and some wrasses. And the other 5 tanks that were linked to it.. well you get the idea.


You're assuming that Reefquarium is run the same way as BA. I suggest you pay the store a visit and decide for yourself.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Do they quarantine their fish first?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Tim said:


> Do they quarantine their fish first?


You'd have to ask Ken, the owner.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

If I ever go there will do, because they would be a first as far as I know 

I have lost fish to disease from a number of stores, funny enough though I have never bought a fish from Big Als because I find them too expensive or I see obvious signs of problems.


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## nso_168 (Sep 22, 2011)

Tim said:


> Do they quarantine their fish first?


If any LFS does quarantine, then it will be a big thing to charge a lot more. Isn't that none of us wants to wait for weeks before seeing our new pick in the DT. A LFS can do more pre-caution to reduce the risk of any outbreak, this will be above what most other stores are doing, but technically I doubt is quarantine.

If properly quarantine, one cannot mix with new arrivals, else the clock starts again. You cannot use the same net around, nevermind the potential splash, and BTW, the tank should be isolated. And you should not get the fish during the quarantine period (someone will do if you wait unless the LFS is willing to hold for you for weeks). Everything translates to $$$, and IMO, very impractical for the business because the turn around will be much lower. If I were a LFS owner, I would like to have all new arrivals sold before they develop anything. Turn around will be a key, so sell it low and fast. We benefit from this by paying less, but we also need to do our share. Any fish that stays longer can start to develop symptoms, I guess this is one reason we see more sick fish at BAs.

I may be paranoid, but I learn hard from mistakes I keep. I am treating one in the QT right now.

May be there is a secret to get away from quarantine? Anyone willing to share?


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

Some lfs actually medicate all there tanks to prevent outbreaks. I never dump LFS water in my tank as I personally know that some stores use meds to prevent fish getting sick and I don't want meds in my tank.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

cablemike said:


> Some lfs actually medicate all there tanks to prevent outbreaks. I never dump LFS water in my tank as I personally know that some stores use meds to prevent fish getting sick and I don't want meds in my tank.


Funny you merntion that. I know of one that treats with prazipro and another that treats with a low level of cupramine. Apparently low levels of cupramine prevents outbreaks but does not cure. Never heard of that before but isn't great for the fish.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

any idea of seau treats tanks with medication?


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## nso_168 (Sep 22, 2011)

Tim said:


> Funny you merntion that. I know of one that treats with prazipro and another that treats with a low level of cupramine. Apparently low levels of cupramine prevents outbreaks but does not cure. Never heard of that before but isn't great for the fish.


Even if they use full dose, it won't get rid of the ich unless the fish is there long enough for the ich to complete its life cycle - a "healthy" and/or a rare one often got picked up within a few days. It is a cost effective way to prevent outbreak at LFS. In addition, I believe some keep the salinity low - I measured once @ 1.017.

IMO, these are good temporary measures at LFS, and actually indirectly driven by us, the aquarists. We just have to understand this, and do not make wrong assumption of the health status of the fish.


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## msobon (Dec 7, 2011)

Not sure what to really say about the Quarantine approach other than I would be willing to bet that 90% of the time a QT tank will have poorer water conditions than the tank the specimen is going into.
The reason I make that statement is because I’ve seen a lot of QT tanks and I see a couple things, first there’s a limited amount of filtration which typically results in lower water quality over time and very low water volume which allows for a faster outbreak IMO. In addition, typically your QT tank isn’t a stress free environment; it’s a very unnatural environment as it usually consists of a rectangular glass tank sitting in a dark corner somewhere.
As we introduce fish and corals no matter what we do we can’t prevent disease 100% just because you can’t fully sterilize a living thing without killing it.. 
A lot of people have been very concerned over ICH, I have to say over the years I have never lost any SW fish to ICH and yes I’ve had ICH outbreaks in my MT, the solution in my case is how are you prepared to manage it. I always ensure filtration and water quality is always kept top notch and what I mean by that is investing in to solutions that not only sustain a tank but actually is capable of the “OOPS I dropped way to much food into the tank and now my tank is going to crash” scenario.
The other aspect to consider is how you go about buying the fish, typically my approach is getting one that I know just came into the store, has not been in the system for too long and is active. 
Typically those fish are healthy, they look healthy too because they haven’t been malnourished.
At the end everyone has their own approach to the hobby and I really don’t think there is anything wrong with either QT or no QT, it’s whatever makes the person comfortable is what matters..


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## nso_168 (Sep 22, 2011)

msobon said:


> Not sure what to really say about the Quarantine approach ... the solution in my case is how are you prepared to manage it. I always ensure filtration and water quality is always kept top notch ...
> At the end everyone has their own approach to the hobby and I really don't think there is anything wrong with either QT or no QT, it's whatever makes the person comfortable is what matters..


A good reply! This is one of the reasons why this hobby is so interesting, rewarding, and may be challenging for newbies. There is no black or white answer to almost anything we face, and we have to decide which approach to take and do our own experiment to figure out what works for the system and livestocks we have. Quarantine is a must for my system because I know I cannot keep (or better to say cannot invest the time and money to keep) the environment top notch and I have a small 50G FOWLR (no sump, no skimmer, but only a cannister, very different from a "typical" setup). I know based on my experience that my tank does not have the buffer to handle this scenario, so I decided to take the quarantine approach to reduce the margin of error. Everything boils down to maintaining a equalibrium of the system, and every aquaist is trying to do that with different approaches.


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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

interesting subject. i for one have not had a problem with no qt'ing fish. never any signs of ich or anything, for what it's worth i got all my fish at big als yonge/steeles. 

they're fish look healthy to me. i never see any symptoms on them, always active and feeding great. nice color too. the price is a bit more compaired to othere places but maybe that's what you pay for, atleast i can say that with all the fish i've gotten from there. 

but now with the new tank build coming up, i'm going to be getting many fish, some of which will all have to be added at the same time (about 5 yellow tangs) so maybe a QT tank will be worth it. it seems like to get ich out of your main tank is a huge pain in the ass.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Flexin5 said:


> interesting subject. i for one have not had a problem with no qt'ing fish. never any signs of ich or anything, for what it's worth i got all my fish at big als yonge/steeles.
> 
> they're fish look healthy to me. i never see any symptoms on them, always active and feeding great. nice color too. the price is a bit more compaired to othere places but maybe that's what you pay for, atleast i can say that with all the fish i've gotten from there.
> 
> but now with the new tank build coming up, i'm going to be getting many fish, some of which will all have to be added at the same time (about 5 yellow tangs) so maybe a QT tank will be worth it.


QT is totally worth it imo. Yep a pain in the butt keeping the water quality high but it is doable and not expensive at all as long as you do it smart.



> it seems like to get ich out of your main tank is a huge pain in the ass.


Damn straight it is. I haven't had it but a friend of mine has and it took a heck of a lot of work. Since he didn't have a huge QT tank, he took out all his live rock and corals and had to treat his DT with cupramine and let the rest lie fallow for 2 or 3 months. Nooooo thanks. Give me quarantine any day.

But ich isn't as much a pain as brook or velvet. These can kill your livestock fast. And I don't like the idea of having to play around with formalin (formaldihyde) with children at home.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Flexin5 said:


> it seems like to get ich out of your main tank is a huge pain in the ass.


Yep. But quaranteening TO ME is also a PITA. Now you need to maintain 2 tanks and wait and watch and wait and watch and .... (sucks and I don't like it)

Please note this is MY opinion. I figure I'll do everything to minimize the risk of introducing a problem and usually that should be the case. If a problem occurs, then I will rip apart my tank and separate the problem portions. This is a huge PITA, but I had to do it and the thought of it made me try all sorts of band aid solutions. I lost a lot of time and money until I eventually broke down and separated everything. I ran 2 tanks for a couple of months and all was eventually fine. At first I thought it would kill me but it wasn't that bad. Now everybody's tank is different and some may be more difficult than others. Having said that, IF YOU ARE NOT READY TO DO THIS, then I would highly suggest that you QT because one day you will have to go through it.


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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

Dax said:


> Yep. But quaranteening TO ME is also a PITA. Now you need to maintain 2 tanks and wait and watch and wait and watch and .... (sucks and I don't like it)
> 
> Please note this is MY opinion. I figure I'll do everything to minimize the risk of introducing a problem and usually that should be the case. If a problem occurs, then I will rip apart my tank and separate the problem portions. This is a huge PITA, but I had to do it and the thought of it made me try all sorts of band aid solutions. I lost a lot of time and money until I eventually broke down and separated everything. I ran 2 tanks for a couple of months and all was eventually fine. At first I thought it would kill me but it wasn't that bad. Now everybody's tank is different and some may be more difficult than others. Having said that, IF YOU ARE NOT READY TO DO THIS, then I would highly suggest that you QT because one day you will have to go through it.


I absoulty agree. keeping another tank going is a pain in the ass in its self, that's 2x the water changes/maintence etc. it's a hard subject to talk about because on one hand i've seen people with great tanks and livestock who never QT a thing, on the other hand you hear about outbreaks in a tank. i guess that if you decide to not QT then i agree to be ready for a tank breakdown to get rid of the parasite.

on the other hand you really only have to setup the QT tank for aslong as your adding your live stock, once you have everything in there that you want and it's all happy then you can take it down i guess....bah i don't know lol

i think that a more reasonable question to ask would be how to go about getting rid of ich in a tank because if you do setup a QT tank, and a fish has ich, you cure it in there. if you don't QT a fish and you end up having ich in your DT tank you take the fish out and cure it in a QT tank....or some people do nothing.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Flexin5 said:


> I absoulty agree. keeping another tank going is a pain in the ass in its self, that's 2x the water changes/maintence etc. it's a hard subject to talk about because on one hand i've seen people with great tanks and livestock who never QT a thing, on the other hand you hear about outbreaks in a tank. i guess that if you decide to not QT then i agree to be ready for a tank breakdown to get rid of the parasite.
> 
> on the other hand you really only have to setup the QT tank for aslong as your adding your live stock, once you have everything in there that you want and it's all happy then you can take it down i guess....bah i don't know lol


Well I guess you can make it as complex as you want, but the easier it is the more likely you will keep it up.

Start out with your QT tank full of DT water. Acclimate your new arrivals to the QT water, they are now acclimated to your DT as well (providing you don't have to go to hyposalinity etc).

Water changes are simple. Remove the water in the QT, replace it with DT water. Fresh mixed water goes into the DT, so really only 1 water change.

QT keep it simple too. Tank, ammonia badge, heater, thermometer, sponge filter (+ air pump), a piece of pvc pipe

Additives: Amquel/ammo-loc and stability. If the fish is really stressed, it can really pmp out the ammonia lol. My clown in hypo right now, brought the ammonia in a 20g from 0 to .25 in under 6 hours. Dose of ammo-loc and started with stability. No ammonia, no nitrites. problem solved. happy-ish fish.

A fully functional cycled tank is even nicer if you have the space and don't mind running it all the time. A couple of drops of ammonia every other day or small pinch of flake food.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

great info on qt guys! now heres a follow up.

i dont think i read of anyone stating of a proper treatment of when a fish is actually showing signs of disease in a qt.

what procedures do you then take?
lets say ick is the disease as its the most harsh from what i hear.
do you:
freshwater dip?
medicate(example: ich x)?
wet food with garlic and feed more often?

whats worked for you?

also if you treat the fish and put it in ur dt. r the odds high of it getting ick all over again? someone posted here that ick is always present in your tank.

just looking for some great inputs and what has worked for you guys.

great discussion that went down with the previous question about if a qt is necessary.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Here are my answers.



peacocks said:


> great info on qt guys! now heres a follow up.
> 
> i dont think i read of anyone stating of a proper treatment of when a fish is actually showing signs of disease in a qt.
> 
> ...


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Agree with Tim, plus some more info:

- "Treating" in DT is always an option but if it fails you've lost time that could have saved your fish. I'd say give it no more than one cycle of Ich
- Easiest and fastest method of treating Ich is copper. Hypo will work but requires you to be good at controling water parameters .. not easy.
- After 8 months and no new additions/outbreaks, usually Ich dies off. At least that's what they say.


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## nso_168 (Sep 22, 2011)

Hypo works pretty well for me. I keep SG @ 1.010 between 2 to 3 weeks in a 14G tank. So far so good for the past 3, 4 years I have been using this approach. What I do is to replace 25% water (from DT + water to make 1.010) every other day - ok, sometimes 3 days when I am busy or lazy. Also removed waste on the bottom. My last one was a hippo tang - I started with hypo and then the ich symptom showed after 3 or 4 days. So I switched to a stronger treatment, i.e. copper. However, I used it at half dose while maintaining the hypo treatment. I am not sure if this is a recommended approach, but it works for me on two previous incidences. May be I should raise the salinity and then apply the copper treatment, but it takes time. Anyway, the hippo is now a happy camper in the DT.

I read at RC that hypo may not kill (or effectively kill) the ich when they are at certain stage. I might have it wrong - anyone points out please. But, if this is the case, then we have to be careful at the last stage of the hypo treatment, i.e. bringing the salinity slowly up to that of the DT. This will be a window that the fish gets re-infected.


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