# Seeking Professional Help



## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

Hello all,

I'm in a unique situation where I maintain a 220 G system, however I must be missing something because most of the corals just don't take or are not growing.

My client and I are seeking professional help - we will fairly compensate you for your efforts.

There is just so much about the system that I don't have the time/energy to type it all out and much rather would have someone come out and have a one-on-one. 

Please advise if you are available to offer your expertise.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## deeznutz (Aug 21, 2013)

Pm me and we can talk

-dan


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

I'll try my best to give you more details on our issues.

First off a little background on the system - it's a built-in 220 gallon tank with an approx 30g sump and a 40g RO holding tank. 
Lighting is a 6x54w T5HO, bulbs just changed. 
It has an coralife skimmer, with 2 little fish GFO reactor, and a calcium reactor (not working).
Fish are 2 yellow tangs, 1 scopas tang, 1 sailfin tang, 10 blue/green chromis, 2 clownfish, 1 anemone, 1 duncan, 1 bubble coral, 1 elegant coral, some zoas, and a white polyp coral.

I do maintenance on the system twice a week by doing a small water change each time alternating with freshwater and fresh saltwater.
I regularly check for nitrite, nitrates, pH, KH, and GH by using an API 5-in-1 test strip, if anything seems out of line I follow up with a more detailed test kit. Also check for calcium, phosphates, and salinity.

Salinity - 1.065
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0-10 ppm
pH - 8.0
KH and GH - 120 / 180
Calcium - 600 - always tests high
phosphates - can't remember the last test result

Also as part of the weekly routine is a weekly dose of http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/b...al+(Dry)+Reef+Building+Complex-+800+Gram.html which is why calcium is high, but I figured that's ok for the corals. 
Also twice weekly a feeding of http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/zv-pcv050/ZEOvit+Pohl's+Coral+Vitalizer+-+50ml.html, along with fresh seaweed strip, and PEmysis shrimp, plus the owner feeds them at his discretion flake food and shrimp. Needless to say the fish are pigs and eat it all up.

So overall the tank is fairly clean, the fish are happy and healthy and some of the corals are flourishing, but some are not and we really want to take this to the next level and add corals and frags but want to ensure that the corals don't die but rather flourish.

I also have running a chemi-pure elite and have some purigen to add.

Things that I know need addressing are - changing the GFO media, adding the purigen, and changing the RO membrane filter (just changed the paper filter and carbon filter).

Anyway I hope that info helps.

Cheers,
Aaron


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Which corals are struggling the most?

Have you checked Magnesium levels? It's often overlooked, but many stony corals won't do well if the mg level is too low.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I hope the 1.065 salinity was a typo.


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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

better test kits may give you an indication.


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## noy (Nov 19, 2012)

I am assuming the salinity is a typo.



> First off a little background on the system - it's a built-in 220 gallon tank with an approx 30g sump and a 40g RO holding tank.


That's a huge RO holding tank (just a comment).



> Lighting is a 6x54w T5HO, bulbs just changed.


That's passable at best for the corals you are raising - might be bit dim on the areas that are not under the lights (I think that is a 48" fixture and your tank is 72").



> It has an coralife skimmer


At some point you may want to upgrade but given your parameters you are getting decent water quality.



> I do maintenance on the system twice a week by doing a small water change each time alternating with freshwater and fresh saltwater.


Not sure this is a good practice. Let an ATO replenish evaporation loss and do your water changes using saltwater mixed to your target salinity.



> I regularly check for nitrite, nitrates, pH, KH, and GH by using an API 5-in-1 test strip,


I would seriously invest in a ph meter. The API test are not great for calcium - I would upgrade to salifert/red sea/elos kits. I would invest in a meter for phosphate - Hanna/Milwaukee. The API test for dkh are actually OK. See if you can get someone to lend a mag test kit (or take it to a LFS) - to test it just too see if it isn't crazy out of whack - not sure you need to monitor mag based on the corals you are keeping. I would recommend upgrading test kits in general and see what parameters you get.



> KH and GH - 120 / 180


most of us speak dkh vs. ppm - that 6.7 - 10 - pretty large range.



> phosphates - can't remember the last test result


The API kit readings go from 0 to 0.25 (from what I recall) - that's is really not that usable. Target PO4 - about 0.04.



> So overall the tank is fairly clean, the fish are happy and healthy and some of the corals are flourishing, but some are not and we really want to take this to the next level and add corals and frags but want to ensure that the corals don't die but rather flourish.


Need some pics. If you are planning on SPS frags - you need to upgrade your lights and get your calcium/dkh stabilized but that's a whole different discussion.



> I also have running a chemi-pure elite and have some purigen to add.


You may want to run some carbon in a bag - but see if it affects that Tangs (HLLE can be caused by carbon).

Can you tell us what pump/powerheads are in the system to generate flow. This may be (part of) your problem.


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## Bullet (Apr 19, 2014)

^on the salinity 
If that is correct, you are way high 
Please re-check and update


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry yes that is a typo it's at 1.025.


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

Also tank is 48" wide so that's pretty much the max lighting we can have.

The plan is basic corals, no sps as they require too much lighting.

As for powerheads there is 2 hydro 1150's, and 3 maxi-1200 jets creating flow. 

I don't believe circulation is the issue, or my maintenance schedule, but there is something that I'm missing because it's hit and miss with every coral we try.


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## nc208082 (Jun 27, 2013)

IMO I'd stop dosing that brightwell stuff and the pohls extra. The corals he is keeping aren't very demanding in terms of supplementing and could get by on weekly water changes alone. IMO the sump sounds kind of small a 30g for a 220g system? But that doesn't affect too much.

Your first step as others have mentioned is purchase a good quality test kit for Alk, Calc, and Mag and work on those numbers. API is not very reliable even for a quick reference. Also buy a ph testing pen, very accurate and takes a quick reading.

Simplify your routine to correct the main 3 and everything should fall into place.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

+1 nc208082 suggests, is literally stop adding stuff and determine system parameters where you can go forward with a plan.

Sounds like a cubish shaped 220 if you only have 48”.

I would start by getting the better test kits. kH, Ca, Mg, NO3 and PO4 is all you will need with pH optional. 

WRT NH3/NH4, NO2, only if you are constantly adding LOTS of livestock, heavy feeding, etc. If you have a problem, in these areas, things would be dead long ago.

To really see if the membrane needs replacing is to test the TDS from the membrane and compare that with the source water TDS. If it’s within the % rejection rate, the membrane is fine. Regular changing of the prefilters and weekly membrane flush significantly extends the life of the membrane. 

I’ve never had to use Chemi –Pure or Purigen on a regular basis. Having to regularly use these products indicates that there is “something lacking” in the system in nutrient export/control. A properly sized/spec’ed sump, refugium, skimmer and media reactors (carbon, GFO and perhaps BPs) will take care of most problems. 

My Q’s are:
-	Salt you are using
-	Size of TLF media reactor
-	GPH of return pump

Not knowing what your client wishes to put into the system monetarily and what info is given, things that come to mind that they will have to spend money on are:
-	Test kits
-	Protein Skimmer: A CoraLife skimmer on a 220…I need not explain further.
-	Powerheads: if it is cubish, those powerheads are insufficient to get the flow required to keep things in suspension
-	New sump design: If you aren’t getting micro bubbles on a 220gal with a 30gal sump, my gut feeling is that the return pump isn’t getting you the 4-6x turnover rate (880-1320gph).

That’s all the help I can really give you with just the info provided.


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi All,

Thanks for the info, please keep the questions coming as I'm learning lots here.

As for WTAC's questions:
- salt is Instant Ocean Reef Crystals
- TLF reactor is a 150 - probably insufficient for a 220 system
- and return pump I don't know.

As for investing into the system, I don't think that new equipment or a sump is required - although that may the missing link - what do I know at this point.
I'm sure some $$ can be spent to upgrade the skimmer - it is a very tight fit underneath the cabinet.

I'll order some test kits and provide the results....

In the meantime I'll stop all additives and focus just on the water changes. 
Anything else I should do or not do?


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Just do the regular maintenance until you can get the water tested with the proper kits.

For a 220, even a 48" x 36"/48" footprint, if you say it is tight for space underneath the aquarium...something isn't right to me as you can accommodate quite a bit of equipment to have it run properly. 

Something tells me that it might be a MarineLand 200DD or a custom aquarium on a MarineLand DD stand: they are notorious for being too short with an inside height of 25-26" and the side access is ~16" wide. I shudder to think of having to revamp/work on those systems unless the filtration is plumbed in the basement/another room.


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

wtac said:


> Just do the regular maintenance until you can get the water tested with the proper kits.
> 
> For a 220, even a 48" x 36"/48" footprint, if you say it is tight for space underneath the aquarium...something isn't right to me as you can accommodate quite a bit of equipment to have it run properly.
> 
> Something tells me that it might be a MarineLand 200DD or a custom aquarium on a MarineLand DD stand: they are notorious for being too short with an inside height of 25-26" and the side access is ~16" wide. I shudder to think of having to revamp/work on those systems unless the filtration is plumbed in the basement/another room.


You are the man to listen to so I'm paying attention wtac!

I'll be posting pics of the system later on this week, along with test results using saliferts test kits.

Thanks for the input so far.

And yes this is a built in custom tank, and space is quite limited. Also in my description I mentioned it is a sump, but is really a wet-dry trickle setup.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

*Lighting*

I'd agree with Noy. I don't think lighting is enough. If it is a cube system and the tank is very wide and tall, one 6 bulb T5ho (maybe 13"x48" fixture) is not providing enough coverage for the whole width nor intensity at lower depths. I'd go with at least two or three of the 6x54 48" T5s. If it is a very tall tank, you should consider MH or a combo of MH and T5HO.

You can rent a spectrometer from Flavio I believe.


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## deeznutz (Aug 21, 2013)

"wet-dry trickle setup"

Bad news bears!


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## aquatic_expressions (Mar 17, 2006)

On a fish only system a trickle system would be fine but for a reef it is not recommended as it can essentially be a nitrate factory.


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## mattdean (Oct 23, 2010)

I have a 48" Tek light, but 8 bulbs. That would be much better for your tank. I also have a Reefbrite XHO Actinic LED strip on each side of the light as supplemental lighting and my corals grow like weeds. And my tank looks great to the eye. All corals, LPS and SPS. The salt is fine, that's what I use. 

Make sure the flow/circulation is fairly even - no dead spots. I believe that is more important than how strong it is.

Good luck


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## Flameangel (Sep 25, 2013)

Here's what I think may help you understand a bit about the importance of water parameters.In my experience the type of lights,proper placement of corals and water params are the important aspects into keeping a successful reef tank.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

Flameangel said:


> Here's what I think may help you understand a bit about the importance of water parameters.In my experience the type of lights,proper placement of corals and water params are the important aspects into keeping a successful reef tank.
> http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php


Good read, lots of info - thanks!

So here are some test results and some pics (I hope).

First of test results of the main tank:
Salinity - 1.026
Nitrates - 0 ppm
Nitrites - 0 ppm 
kH - 120 mg/L
GH - 180 mg/L
pH - 8.2
Phospates - 0.25 mg/L
Magnesium - 1500 + ppm
kH/Alk - 13.4 dKH or 4.79 meq/L
Calcium - 500 + ppm

So as far as I know, calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity are too high. So I'm assuming you lower these by doing water changes; so I went and tested the mixing tank and got similar results. So then I tested the tap water and got much lower results - so now I'm confused. 
If all I did was mix salt mixture into the RO tank, how do I get high mag, calc, and alk results when the tap water is lower?

Should I skip the RO process and just use tap water? or how else do I lower these test paramaters?

Advice please....

Cheers,
Aaron


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## Flameangel (Sep 25, 2013)

I'd get rid of those bioballs first and if you can use a refugium instead (Just a suggestion).If you wanted to lower your Alk a little bit at a time what I usually do is use a 10 ml of muriatic (per 100 gallons equals-1dkh) acid during water changes while mixing the salt although it will lower your pH at the same time but it'll go back in about an hour.Your mag is a wee bit on the high side but it will not affect your corals and fish.I suspect your test kit is not giving you the exact reading so like wtac says get a better ones.I recommend Salifert for Calcium and Mag,Hanna Checker for Phosphate (ULR) and Alk.Your PO4 reading is quite high as far as ideal level is concern (0.03-0.05 ppm).Here's an article worth reading BUT in contrary with what alot of us do:
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/...g-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html


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## Reef Druid (Jun 27, 2014)

IMHO the lighting sounds insufficient. I'd get rid of the bioballs too.

As for your parameters and test kits, I am going to be the dissenting voice here and say that for most LPS/softie tanks API test kits are just fine. You may have a bad kit, but I think going out and spending $100 on new kits is (probably) unnecessary. The money could better be put to use towards better lighting. $100 is a lot of money to spend just to find out the numbers are pretty much the same. Been there, done that. If there is some question as to the age of your test kits, or results are all over the map/improper colours, then I would spend the money on the kits.

IMPE, if you are having trouble with LPS and softies, I'd bet my money on something more obvious than not (ie. lighting, salinity, flow, diurnal swings etc.) Chasing waterfalls and reefkeeping = bad time. I find especially when discussing parameters it is always a crap shoot. Some people say for example, 500ppm calcium is too high, others don't keep theirs lower than 500, or 0.04ppm phosphates vs. 0.1ppm. For myself, nit picking phos , mag, and alk is not usually #1 on my troubleshooting list.


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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

I cant see how NA is coming back zero with bio balls not converting to nitrogen gas and a skimmer that cant process volume of water properly.


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## deeznutz (Aug 21, 2013)

Judging from your pics you posted, the main culprit is within your sump.

Trickle filter
Garbage skimmer
Calcium reactor that may not be tuning properly.

I would suggest, you run a decent size sump. Purchase a decent skimmer rated for your water volume. Pull the calcium reactor offline until you have a need for it.

Are you using RO/DI?

HTH

-dan


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## noy (Nov 19, 2012)

Not sure why you would get those parameters from IO Reef Crystals. I'm not sure its actually possible to get both Cal, Alk at those levels - at least you should be getting crazy precipitation.

Instead of using tap water (which has its own issues) - use just the regular IO mix (the stuff with the purple labels). That will bring everything down.

If you are running GFO properly you should be able to bring the PO4 lower.

I'm just not seeing how you are getting 0 nitrates with a wet/dry set up and no other real means of nitrate import. You may want someone to double check this.


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

So here's the latest round of test results after a large water change:

Salinity - 1.025
Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
pH - 8.1
phospates - 0.25 - this is an old test kit, so maybe wrong
Magnesium - 1500+
Calcium - 500+
Alkalinity - 10.9

All test kits, aside from the phosphates, are new salifert and the nitrates is a dip strip. 

Today I also changed the GFO and cleaned out the reactor.

Thanks for any tips / info you can pass along.

Cheers,
Aaron


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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

I would still gather your Nitrates are off, i still cant see them at 0 with trickle.
Also if you are running tap and the tank is running at a negative, there could be issues with heavy metal accumulation etc.
Sometimes its best to invest in R.O. unit, Proper sump and skimmer, and restart the system.
Plus gauging a system over the internet can be somewhat difficult. simple thing such as rusty clamp underwater which no one here can see could be issue.
Your best bet is to maybe offer to pay an experienced reefer or service guy to come over for an hour and run full tests with proper kits.
As stated, for salt being used the numbers make no sense. Theres other things going on here.


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## Flameangel (Sep 25, 2013)

NVES said:


> So here's the latest round of test results after a large water change:
> 
> Salinity - 1.025
> *Nitrates - 0*Nitrites - 0
> ...


Zero Nitrates with Bioballs is really very odd.


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## Thoreffex (Dec 31, 2013)

I think your calcium, alk, mg are ok. Salt is usually high in these elements. I would be questioning the nitrates and phosphates. 0.25 is too high. You can see it in the display with the algae growth. Skimmer upgrade is a must/tuned, maby a media reactor running GFO/ carbon? Maby feed the chubby fish a bit less it might help out until you figure it out. I also a think if you only top off evaporation water once a week the salinity change might be an issue as well for sensitive corals. And those power heads should be replaced with magnetic mounts before they fall and kill stuff.


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