# Evolution in nutrient management



## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

So I went from managing nutrients to dosing nutrients. I wasn't getting any reading in nitrates and phosphates. My corals were just pale in color. I ran across nitrates helping corals, sps in particular colour up. I read up extensively on nitrate dosing, and began dosing. The next day SPS lost PE. I stopped dosing three days after. a few days later began STN. and Zoas are opening half way only. Now everything is pale. My nitrates are still 0. so are phos.

Further research tells me: What I had done was by dosing nitrates I had stripped the system of any residual phosphates. Ah. that didn't show up in any threads I read up on nitrate dosing. 

So I've pulled out half of my matrix, and low flow for phos reduction. Increased feeding fish 50%. Still nothing. 

Now I'm thinking of dosing phosphates. And reading up on tanks with ULNS problems, they are in fact dosing both phosphates and nitrates in conjunction. And in other parts of their regimen, they are adding potassium as supplements. 

So, now I just had a thought, why NOT dose plant fertilizer. It has nitrogen, phosphates, and potassium. 

Isn't this insane?


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

The pendulum has swung to the other side and all of a sudden it's WTF do I do now. Yep...we have been chasing the zeros and N and P and we got it and still, the corals are not "happy".

*shakes fist in air*

Dosing NO3 and PO4 supplements I haven't found helpful but rather an increase in feeding fish *and* coral frequency (frozen and commercial). I have found incorporating amino acid/vitamin/mineral supplements, ie SeaChem Fuel, has helped alot.

As for supplementing NO3 that reduces PO4, sure can especially if one has a macroalgae refugium and/or BP Rx.

Lots of factors to consider.

The important attribute is that the system is more than capable to handle the "nutrient input". Keeping it simple in the brain...the corals want to "eat"...feed them 

I hope the SPS are stable as you can get into the rocking of the canoe while adjusting this and that. Last thing you want to do is tip over.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Yes at this point the ones that haven't STNed are "stable" but pale beyond compare. Increased feeding over time hopefully will raise the phosphates back to reasonable levels.

On the other hand I'm going to keep looking into phosphate and nitrate dosing. Found someone in SK who had a similar problem as I did, the corals are pale like hers in this post
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24274358&postcount=531

though I'm not sure I want to follow her exact route. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24475445&postcount=569


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Re: the fertilizer idea. It seems reactive to go this route, and I agree w Wilson that it becomes like rocking the canoe.
Before dosing nitrates or phosphates, take a look at Fauna Marin Ultra Amin and Ultra Organic supplements. I have been using them for the last 6 months and although I don't have an issue with ULN, I have noticed that my sps have responded to the micro nutrients and supplemental elements.
Since this is about finding a sweet spot, everything has to be done slowly, so as to not overtip the balance the other way. An increase in feedings is going to have an impact, it may just be slow.
Be patient with your changes. Good luck.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Crayon said:


> Re: the fertilizer idea. It seems reactive to go this route, and I agree w Wilson that it becomes like rocking the canoe.
> Before dosing nitrates or phosphates, take a look at Fauna Marin Ultra Amin and Ultra Organic supplements. I have been using them for the last 6 months and although I don't have an issue with ULN, I have noticed that my sps have responded to the micro nutrients and supplemental elements.
> Since this is about finding a sweet spot, everything has to be done slowly, so as to not overtip the balance the other way. An increase in feedings is going to have an impact, it may just be slow.
> Be patient with your changes. Good luck.


Hi Cheryl,

yup, while on the surface it may seem "strange" to speak of dosing nutrients, this idea has been around for a long time. There are a lot of nutrient dosing products on the market including Pohl's extra, aquavitro fuel, etc. which are integrated into the maintenance routine of certain well known methods. I've simply deconstructed it. Call it what it is. nutrient dosing.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

As you are researching, just feed the snot out of them. 

They will get their N and P from captured food and organic inorganic complex solutions. There is a far wider margin for error and you already have most of what you need and the process is simple.

Going the "elemental/molecular" route, you will have to determine concentration (or taken from the OP recipe) of a dosing solution and guestimate system demands. This where you either manually dose accurately by syringe regularly or employ a reliable and accurate dosing system or a diluted solution depending on the specs of the doser.

keep us posted


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

wtac said:


> As you are researching, just feed the snot out of them.
> 
> They will get their N and P from captured food and organic inorganic complex solutions. There is a far wider margin for error and you already have most of what you need and the process is simple.
> 
> ...


yup! I'm feeding fish more corals more - nightly now instead of 3x a week. I will be adding amino acid product to this mix and see if that is enough to help corals stimulate increased feeding behaviour.

I learned one thing a long time ago. one change at a time.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

*Validated by a commercial company*

Validation by a commercial company of my theory that nitrogen dosing increased phosphate uptake and consequent reduction in the clearest language yet by a company - here is Brightwell Aquatics describing their Nitrogen product for marine aquaria: http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/neonitro.php

"Used in conjunction with MICROBACTER7 and REEF BIOFUEL or KATALYST, enables natural phosphorus uptake to take place in systems with inadequate nitrogen content, lowering phosphate concentration without the use of chemical filtration media and without resorting to polluting the system with organic material to raise the nitrogen content. Recommended for use by advanced reef aquarists maintaining ultra-low nutrient content systems, only."

Microbac is their bacteria product (similar to what KZ and AF offers), Biofuel is a carbon source (likely vinegar or glucose), and Katalyst is bacteria host media (similar to siporax, matrix etc).

So here's that balance and equation - they say use their carbon product along with their nitrogen product to decrease phosphate.

THIS is what happened in my tank, and in Myka's tank from RC.

I can explain this further. So this is where I come back to the Redfield ratio: C:N of 106:16:1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfield_ratio

Basically, in the ocean carbon, nitrogen and phosphate occurs and is taken up by plankton and bacteria in that ratio. 
When you increase C and N available to bacteria and plankton in your tank, their uptake of P also increases by that ratio.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

*The Dutch using Redfield Ratio in nutrient management*

Well of course the Dutch have been doing things differently over there successfully for years, and some of them are using redfield ratio for nutrient management, or rather limit outbreak of algae. This apparently works in fresh water as well. I have a feeling people in FW already knows this.

http://www.aquariumhobby.nl/zoetwater/calculators/redfield.html

and yet another Dutch calculator:
http://buddendo.home.xs4all.nl/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

The second page supposedly gives you the amount to dose, but I can't get it to work.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Redfield ratio has added another tool to nutrient management for me. Carbon dosing is established as a great tool for reducing nitrates, which it does by helping bacteria culture grow and thus take up excess nitrates in a reef aquarium.

The reason it works is because carbon is limited in aquaria, which results in excess N and P. By adding carbon to aquaria bacteria and planktons are able to take up more (excess) N and P. It then reasons if I want to increase N and P to measurable levels I need to reduce carbon. Thus I have stopped carbon dosing. 

To increase N and P I can 1) dose them 2) increase feeding, or a combination of both. 

I am now doing #2 - 50-60% increase in fish food. Feeding corals daily instead of once a week. Plus dosing amino acids. I now have trace phosphates in the water, though within the margin or error - of 0.05ppm. Nitrates are still, 0. This is good. There is no further coral bleaching.

I have begun to see results. Acropora corals are now sending out feeding tentacles every time there is food in the water column whereas previously I had no polyp extension.

My goal is to have a trace amount of N and P. If the current regiment does not achieve it I will begin dosing.

My gosh matrix works. I think I'm feeding enough now to maintain NPS corals I believe.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

*Randy Holmes-Farley on Redfield Ratio and Phosphate reduction*

RHF is a bit ambivalent about RR ratio on the forums on this topic. Nevertheless, he did say this:

Yes, it may be useful to dose both (carbon and nitrates). Many people do, with the goal to reduce phosphate....​
http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/redfield-ratio-details.236354/#post-2757042

So what may seen like a heresy in reef keeping - i.e. dose nutrients, some actually use it successfully to manage nutrients.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

So here I am going through chemistry forum on Reef2reef and find that 10-15% of the posts are on Nitrate and Phosphate dosing. It's a thing now folks. How many of you are dosing N and P because it's 0 in your systems?


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

I do that with a few clients


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

when I get N and P down to zero, maybe. I talked to Claude from Fauna Marin at MACNA last year and he said his target for nitrates is 25 and phosphates.....can't remember. So I'm still trying to get Nitrates to stabilize at 25.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

wtac said:


> I do that with a few clients


a few clients? do tell! which are you dosing? P or N?


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Crayon said:


> when I get N and P down to zero, maybe. I talked to Claude from Fauna Marin at MACNA last year and he said his target for nitrates is 25 and phosphates.....can't remember. So I'm still trying to get Nitrates to stabilize at 25.


I had nitrates at 20ppm after my tank cycled. P was at 0. I started dosing carbon at 20ml a day (white vinegar). When N went to about 5ppm I reduced it to about 5-10ml per day. it all went to 0. I am using Matrix and it is effective. Certainly way more than just live rock. I'm going to target N to about 5-10ppm and P to 0.05 to 1 ppm.

How much are your nitrates? for which of your tanks?


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

My large 250 system sits at around 30ish for nitrates which we are trying to get down, but everything, including my efflo and torts are happy, so nothing sudden. 30 is still too high, as I know it stresses some corals when they are brought in, and they will struggle for a while. We have seen some coral frags sit and do nothing for 18 months as they adapt to the environment, and then take off with growth.
My small 30 gallon nano system sits less than 20, so we sometimes use this as a coral acclimation tank.
My cold water system is a challenge, as the 62 degree temperature I am sure affects all readings. We know the temperature has an impact on the salinity reading, and I am sure it affects food take up by the microbial culture as well which also then makes reading nitrates difficult. This system is working fine, despite nitrate readings being consistently above 50, so we don't dose it with anything, we just leave it be as we believe the temperature throws any readings off.
Auto water changes are my only method of dosing for both my small systems. The large system I use the Fauna Marin Amin and Ultra products along with the Bio Balls in addition to about 30 litres a day water change.

The information brought here has been really informative. I've seen people chasing the 0 for a long time, which is not in line with the target levels the researchers and coral suppliers have been promoting over the last few years.
A zero nitrate level means no food source for corals. So this discussion is well needed and timely.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Crayon said:


> My large 250 system sits at around 30ish for nitrates which we are trying to get down, but everything, including my efflo and torts are happy, so nothing sudden. 30 is still too high, as I know it stresses some corals when they are brought in, and they will struggle for a while. We have seen some coral frags sit and do nothing for 18 months as they adapt to the environment, and then take off with growth.
> 
> My cold water system is a challenge, as the 62 degree temperature I am sure affects all readings. We know the temperature has an impact on the salinity reading, and I am sure it affects food take up by the microbial culture as well which also then makes reading nitrates difficult. This system is working fine, despite nitrate readings being consistently above 50, so we don't dose it with anything, we just leave it be as we believe the temperature throws any readings off.
> Auto water changes are my only method of dosing for both my small systems. The large system I use the Fauna Marin Amin and Ultra products along with the Bio Balls in addition to about 30 litres a day water change.


How much are your phosphates? If it is just nitrates over 30, excess nitrates mean your system is limited in carbon and phosphates. If P starts creeping up then you are limited in carbon. Remedy for P is simple really - overfeed your fish and corals.

There was this guy with a huge tank who had high nitrate problem (and a ton of fish). He was using MarinePure but didn't carbon dose. I urged him to carbon dose to get N a bit lower. And tbh if he understood Redfield Ratio he'd have understood that his system was limited in carbon. He did resume carbon dosing in adequate amounts till he got it down to amost 0. He's at 5 atm but not happy and I told him 5 is perfect. 
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2292029


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## nc208082 (Jun 27, 2013)

I'm curious what's your bioload vs amount of rock? 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

*Eureka! Finally got Nitrates!*

Just measured - Nitrates register at 5ppm, phos ~0-0.05ppm. Yay!

The ratio that worked for me was 10N to 1P. This on top of the over-feeding.

I began by dosing greater than the Redfield ratio, about 25N to 1P since I had some low end phos as per test kit (~0.05). That's 2.5ppm N and 0.1P.

Well, 2 days later my N is still O and P is now O. So I moved to Redfield ratio - 16-1. Still 0. So I went to the ratio this aussie guy was using: 10-1. two days later, Eureka! I have N! it's showing to be 5ppm today (was dosing 2.5ppm N and 0.25ppm P). Phosphates are either 0 or 0.05ppm.

I have noticed that my algae now has color - it is now green whereas it was grey previously and blended in with the rock. Algae growth rate has not changed.

Note the consumption of phosphates. This is amazing.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

nc208082 said:


> I'm curious what's your bioload vs amount of rock?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Mine or crayon's? mine's about 30lbs of live rock, 6L of Matrix. approx. 8-9" of fishes (5 in total) a couple of LPS, a few colonies of acros dozen or so frags. Total water vol. ~40 US Gallons, 30 in fragtank, 10 in sump. Essentially it's a nano. Intention is to have greater than needed biocapacity in order to handle any spikes in nutrients.


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## nc208082 (Jun 27, 2013)

My question was related to your first post in the question of adding plant ferts. 
I tried dosing seachem flourish to increase nitrates and it increased nitrates but caused algae to take off. I then tried just KNO3 which was a lot better than the seachem.

Do you want to add more fish to your system or keep it simple?

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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

nc208082 said:


> My question was related to your first post in the question of adding plant ferts.
> I tried dosing seachem flourish to increase nitrates and it increased nitrates but caused algae to take off. I then tried just KNO3 which was a lot better than the seachem.
> 
> Do you want to add more fish to your system or keep it simple?
> ...


Algae seems contained thus far and that might be due to P04 being the limiting factor. From what I can tell Seachem Flourish Nitrogen is made from KNO3 plus ammonia. I like the potassium in KNO3!I went Seachem route due to easy access. I will be ordering KNO3 and P04 powders online. What is your mixing ratio to get 1ppm per ML dosage?

Yes aside from the 8-10" of fish I have I will be adding 2-3 more fish but that will take time - I am choosy when it comes to fish, I'd rather not buy one for phosphates and then not like them later. And I will quarantine them for a few weeks at least. So that process could take 4 weeks to 3 months from now lol.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

wtac said:


> The important attribute is that the system is more than capable to handle the "nutrient input". Keeping it simple in the brain...the corals want to "eat"...feed them


wtac, I just want to emphasize this comment you made. yeah I went double triple the amount of biological filtration media to handle any nutrient spikes and so far that's what is handling excess nutrients as I experiment with different dosing ratios.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

*BRS uses Redfield Ratio to explain nutrient imbalance*

BRS finally uses the Redfield Ratio to explain the unbalance in reef tanks, and does an excellent job of describing it:











So, quite simply, we are trying to balance Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphates which are utilized by inhabitants of the ocean in *roughly* the ratio Redfield discovered: 106:16:1.

When everything is balanced, there will be little excess of any of that left in the tank. But if N or P are high, then it is likely the other two are in deficit. We are a bit challenged in not having hobby grade tests for carbon, but it is not difficult to find out if C is in deficit through deduction.


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