# 29 Gallon Setup Help



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

I am setting up a 29 gallon FOWLR tank which will eventually get some corals once I feel confident enough to take care of them. 

Already purchased
29g tank
40 pounds live sand
30 gallons premixed saltwater (I will be buying premixed for water changes as well until I do some more research on RO/DI and creating my own mix)

The guy at the store told me to fill the tank with about 1/3 water with the sand in and then come back for the rock in a day or so. So either tomorrow or Saturday I will be buying:

-Test Kits (don't know which are most accurate) including hydrometer
-35 pounds live rock
-2 Power heads (don't know which yet)
-Protein Skimmer (don't know which yet)

Any help with brands/models would be greatly appreciated, as I don't have any experience with this equipment. 

Once the live rock is in and the system is up and running, my understanding is that I will continually test the water until the cycle is complete (and expect a bad smell) Hopefully I will have my first beautiful fish in the tank before Christmas! 

Thank you all


----------



## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Did you get any live rock yet?

40LBS of sand might be a little too much for a 29G. I had a 34G and my 40LBS bag was used by about 70-80%...

Once you add rock the sand area is much smaller, and you dont really want to go more then 1 INCH sand unless your doing for a deep sand bed (DSB)

As for powerheads, Hydor, Maxi Jet & Tunze are all brands that are reliable.

Heaters, Jager is good i hear

FOR THE SAND:
Make sure you rinse it... this was one of my fatal flaws. Maybe buy 5 gallons of RO/DI water and filter with that... I have a dust cloud anytime the sand is disturbed. 

First add the rock
Then add the sand
Then add water, some people put a plate upside down and empty the water on the plate so it doesnt disturb the sand... 

If your liverock has been kept wet, with circulation then you shouldnt need to do much to create bacteria needed for cycle. IF its mostly dry rock then you will need to help it along. Lots of good reading out there. Check out nano-reef.com and reefcentral.com


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

I am running a 29 long. 40 lbs like Kweli said is going to be abit much. I got a 20lb bag and it was good. I added abit of CC (crushed coral) so my pods could get abit more places to hide in the sand bedd, to repopulate .
I would have added the sand then the rock then the water. Now that you have water in the tank you are going to come home with rock and have to take water out of the DT so it does not over flow. Plus you are going to be moving the LR around to get the look you want ...
If its going to be a FOWLR you can use the API saltwater master kit I think its called. Dont waste your money on a hydrometer get a Salinity Refractometer they are around 45 bucks online and will give you a better reading. + when you go to corals you are going to want to have one . If you have the money I would go with 1 mp10 es they are 250 but it will be better then any two or three power heads. I had two hydor 750's in my 29 on the back wall at the top of each corner blowing to the middle and up toward each other until I got my mp10. 
As for a skimmer thats a hard call. I had the Remora and did not like it. For the price it's a bunch of crap, that makes bubbles but thats about it. I upgraded to the Deltec Mce600 and this thing is a beast. If you can I would go with one of these . Even the Mce300 would be could on your tank..
If you are getting really good LR you might not see much of a cycle as I did not see really any . Just test every 3 days or so and when Ammonia and Nitrites are at 0 you are done your cycle. 
I would also look into some lights. No point in buying crap ones now then a better one later to keep corals. I would just get a 2 bulb t5 that will also keep some softies when you want to make the change.
Ohh What store are you shopping at. Just a side not BigAls is way over priced and you can get LR and everything else they sell cheaper other places..


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

Alright fellas,

40 pounds of live rock is in, sand is in, powerheads are in, and water is topped off. The tank is really cloudy because of my mistake of putting the sand and water in first, so I can't even see the rock structure yet.

Now we play the waiting game. I'm going to pick up some test kits soon, and I still need to decide on a skimmer. Kemo I'm shopping at BigAls Mississauga right now because it's most convenient, I don't know of any other nearby fish stores.


----------



## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

I would recommend letting the dust storm settle and then siphoning out the water... 

Do your rockwork, then add the water back in.

Trying to do rockwork with water in is very difficult, and once you start moving it the sand will become a storm again


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

Sound good. Yea same thing happen to me because I added my sand and water first. It will be fine. If you are running a filter on the tank like floss just rinse it ever few hours to clean out the sand. 
As for a store I dont live in Suga, but from what I have herd and read 
http://www.oakvillereefgallery.com/ is the place to shop for live stock. If you are in the market for dry goods and can buy online I would shop at 
http://www.goreef.com/ very cheap. 
For example. Big al's sells a 4 buld t5 Aqauticlife fixture at 459.99 the same light selss at goreef for 300. If you can I would never shop at bigals. I have never ever seen anything their for cheaper . I once got GFO from big als for 30 bucks Know I buy they same stuff online for 15.. 
For livestock at big als you really have to sit and watch the fish for at least 15 min or more. Ask them to feed it in front of you.. 
Check out Oakville reef if you can.


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

Alright, thought I would do an update

Purchased a eheim classic 2215 filter that is well and running. Salinity was tested at 1.023 after rinsing in RO water. Temperature is at 80F.

Going to pick up some test kit this week to see where we are in terms of cycling. 

Live rock doesn't have much color to it yet, and I've still yet to see any forms of life although I'm sure its microscopic. I will post some pictures for you soon when the tank is no longer cloudy. 

Thanks Kemo I'll be sure to make a trip to Oakville Reef this weekend and check it out when I'm buying my test kit 

I have a few things left to buy:
Protein Skimmer
Lighting
Refractometer

Additionally, when would you guys recommend adding a clean up crew? And ideally what would the crew be made up of?


----------



## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

You want to wait for the cycle to be over, which you will notice when your ammonia and nitrites go down to 0.

I have a 34G and i started with 4 astrea snails and 4 hermits and they have done a bang-up job so far... any more and I would have had deaths due to starvation.


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

Kweli said:


> You want to wait for the cycle to be over, which you will notice when your ammonia and nitrites go down to 0.
> 
> I have a 34G and i started with 4 astrea snails and 4 hermits and they have done a bang-up job so far... any more and I would have had deaths due to starvation.


Thank you Kweli, how come you chose not to get any cleaner shrimp?

If you don't mind, what lighting would you recommend for a 30" tank? Since I don't know much about corals yet, I want to choose a lighting fixture that will keep my options open and won't need an upgrade in the future. I'm willing to spend some extra cash, but also want bang for buck.


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

like kweli said , cuc can be added when ammonia and nitrites are at o. 
I would go with Cerith Snail's and Nassarius snail. They live in the sand bed . The Ceriths come out at night mostly to clean glass of Diatoms witch they love to eat.Nass snails come out of the sand when they smell food . Both will keep sand from getting dead spots. Hermit crabs are ok it just takes abit of time to find ones that wont kill each other off. Also when you are buying snails or hermits ask the guy at the LFS to toss in some empty shells so that you will have new homes for the crabs when they get bigger.
4 lights I would go with a 4 bulb t5. something like this one. If your tank is 30 inchs. This light has built in timers to so you wont need a timer for your lights.
http://www.goreef.com/Aquatic-Life-30-4x24W-T5HO-Fixture-w-Lunar-LED.html

Your Live rock,Skimmer and Lights will be your 3 big buys other then Livestock so dont go cheap.. 
For a skimmer I would recommend a Deltec . There is a used one on sale on AP. I been running a Deltec for about a week. It broke itself in in around 2 days and is skimming some nasty black crap.


----------



## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Joat said:


> Thank you Kweli, how come you chose not to get any cleaner shrimp?
> 
> If you don't mind, what lighting would you recommend for a 30" tank? Since I don't know much about corals yet, I want to choose a lighting fixture that will keep my options open and won't need an upgrade in the future. I'm willing to spend some extra cash, but also want bang for buck.


Nassarius snails are great too (I have 5 of them) but i only recommend getting them AFTER you have fish... as they eat leftovers and not the algae/diatoms that you will have after a cycle.

I have 2 cleaner shrimp that im trying to get rid of. They eat everything, including the food that i carefully placed on my corals. I cant figure out how to get them out. Cleaner shrimp are not part of a cleanup crew. They are more ornamental, and there is a chance that they will 'clean' your fish of parasites.

I would recommend a MH 150W bulb or a T5 fixture. MH will give off alot of heat and possibly overheat your tank, but you can hold almost anything in your tank. T5 has less heat issues, but you will need to make sure you have the right fixture to house corals that want more light. Lots of guys here have more knowledge of lighting. I have a 150W MH lamp and my tank sits at 84 degrees, which is borderline too hot


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

Thanks all

Strange update today, purchased an API test kit, got the following results:

ph: between 7.8 - 8.0
ammonia: 0 ppm
nitrite: 0 ppm
nitrate: 0 ppm

Is my tank dead or something? Or has the cycle not begun? ph seems low as well


----------



## PACMAN (Mar 4, 2010)

is your water foggy? because mine is, and my water smells a bit. i think its all the dead matter i had from my dead live-rock


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

PACMAN said:


> is your water foggy? because mine is, and my water smells a bit. i think its all the dead matter i had from my dead live-rock


Water is mostly cleared up thanks to the filter. Water doesn't smell yet

I think I just made a newbie mistake  Tested my water before I added any ammonia, that's why everything is reading at zero.


----------



## PACMAN (Mar 4, 2010)

lol is my water supposed to smell??

all i have in it is the rock & saltwater. no sand yet. trying to figure out how to place rockwork


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

Added Ammonia ? If you got LR it will have things on it that will die off.This will start your cycle. If you want add a piece of raw shrimp and see if you get an ammonia spike. You do not have to add anything to LR to get it to cycle .


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

KeMo said:


> Added Ammonia ? If you got LR it will have things on it that will die off.This will start your cycle. If you want add a piece of raw shrimp and see if you get an ammonia spike. You do not have to add anything to LR to get it to cycle .


No ammonia spike and the LR has been in the tank for a couple days now, is this normal? Should I wait longer or put in a raw shrimp?

Also will those frozen shrimp work?


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

yes this is normal if you got really good LR from the LFS. If the LR is been in their tanks awhile then its fully cured. You can add a small piece of shrimp and see if you get a spike.. The frozen kind is ok as long as it is Raw as in not cooked at all. 
I did not get a cycle in my tank as the LR was fully cured aswell.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

KeMo said:


> yes this is normal if you got really good LR from the LFS. If the LR is been in their tanks awhile then its fully cured. You can add a small piece of shrimp and see if you get a spike.. The frozen kind is ok as long as it is Raw as in not cooked at all.
> I did not get a cycle in my tank as the LR was fully cured aswell.


this is not correct info my friend.

*"I did not get a cycle in my tank as the LR was fully cured aswell."*
you MISEED the ammonia spike ...

cycle is bacteria from LR colonizing around the tank on sand, glass and all equipment and also the water.


----------



## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

I had live rock that was kept in optimum condition (thanks teemee)

I didnt start testing my water until after the 2nd week and I never registered any ammonia or nitrites either.

The ammonia spike will be more noticable the more die off there is. If you have live rock that was kept in good condition AND moved quickly into your tank then the cycle will be shorter. Although its still advised to wait 3-4 weeks minimum and only be CUC when there is algae for them to clean up (AND when you have 0 amm, nitrite)


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

huh ? BigR not all tanks have a cycle that you see. If you use Good LR you wont see much of an ammonia spike. I saw no cycle in my tank . I did not miss anything so I dont know what your saying. Alot of people place good LR in their tank and see no cycle . Yes bact live on the sand , rock and equipment but most of it is not free floating. 
I have to disagree. With you. 
If you are saying that all LR placed in a tank will have die of and you will see ammonia go up , thats not true. yes it will have die off but you might not see any ammonia as the bacti eat it up .
Thats my two cents.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

KeMo said:


> huh ? BigR not all tanks have a cycle that you see. If you use Good LR you wont see much of an ammonia spike. I saw no cycle in my tank . I did not miss anything so I dont know what your saying. Alot of people place good LR in their tank and see no cycle . Yes bact live on the sand , rock and equipment but most of it is not free floating.
> I have to disagree. With you.
> If you are saying that all LR placed in a tank will have die of and you will see ammonia go up , thats not true. yes it will have die off but you might not see any ammonia as the bacti eat it up .
> Thats my two cents.


Kemo , why ? lol

"If you use Good LR you wont see *much *of an ammonia spike."
true

"Alot of people place good LR in their tank and *see* no cycle ."
they should look more careful, or perhaps research what a cycle means.

"Yes bact live on the sand , rock and equipment but most of it is not free floating."
 and you give others advice with this info ?! put a coffee filter in your salt water tank in front of a power head for 3 mins and get back to me then lol

"If you are saying that all LR placed in a tank will have die of and you will see ammonia go up , thats not true.* yes it will have die off but you might not see any ammonia as the bacti eat it up* ."
you see how u contradicted yourself ?

CYCLE in a salt water tank means, the population of bacteria will have to reach an equilibrium, there are bacterioplanktons in salt water systems, if your "Hobby grade" test kit wont register ammonia, that doesnt mean your tank never cycled nor does it mean there are no ammonia present.

at the end, do you have any fish in your aquarium ? did you place fish in a cycle LESS tank ? or did u just NOT SEE the cycle happening ? (PS. cycle is not a red dude on a bike, cycle is ABILITY OF A SYSTEM TO PROCESS WASTE)


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

haha LOL

I wondered whp was that dude that kept riding by my house Sht.

What I said was he might not see a spike. I dont know about your eyes must be the best around if you can see Bacti . You need a microscope to see most of them. Most Bacti is Not Free Floating. Do some reading on that because the bacti that break down waste in the tank are mostly not floating around. 


Sht there goes that red dude again .


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

"Most Bacti is Not Free Floating. Do some reading on that because the bacti that break down waste in the tank are mostly not floating around. "


share your readings ? lol

Im not going to argue with u anymore ... you are welcome to believe what you wish .... just stop going around saying "most saltwater tanks dont cycle LOL " lol


PS. a scientific paper is a good source, GOOGLE and what some other user said on some site isnt.  but this is a hobby and most ppl dont care to understand the science behind it, which is understandable, but I am a geek so I spend hours and hours every day just reading


----------



## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Hey all. Still a newbie but done a lot of reading and got some good advice from you good folk. So here's my few cents...

First of all, BigR is absolutely right about one thing: "Cycle is ABILITY OF A SYSTEM TO PROCESS WASTE" and "the population of bacteria to reach an equilibrium". I just read a great article yesterday and basically put (without the techinical explanation), everytime something happens inside a tank there's a surplus of something, then a surplus of something else to counteract the original surplus, back and forth until there is a balance. The bigger the change the longer the "cycle" period. This is the same reason you always want to make small changes.

*Joat*, I just started a few weeks ago and had many of the same questions as you.... some I still do, but here goes: (this is based on a FOWLR going to a reef later)

Test kits: I bought individual tests. Cheaper, specific and more accurate.
Power Heads: For your size the MP10ES would be best. Expensive but one time cost, no screwing around with multiple PHs and looks good. Trust me on this one.
Protein Skimmer: I have a Prizm. People say its crap but it works for me. I don't recommend it because of all the negative publicity. For now (FOWLR)you don't need one so wait till you get more comfortable.
Lighting: I thought the same as you about being "reef ready", but remember you need to replace the bulbs anywhere from 6-12 months and the cost of this is pretty close to buying a new fixture (check it out). For the FOWLR I suggest picking up something on sale and upgrade to an LED when you are ready. Again long term planning.
Hydrometer: these are only $10 and easy to use, so no rush on the refractometer
Aquascaping: Make sure you are happy with the way the rocks look before adding anything. Do it now (as many times as it takes) because moving them around with livestock is very painful. Not to mention that it makes the water cloudy and sets off a mini cycle. Every time I've done it I think I've pinned down a snail or hermit.
Rock Layout: Tough call but try to keep the bottom accessible for cleaning/removing stuff because something always gets lodged someplace you can't easily get to.
Store listings: Try this. http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138

Notes: Big Al's always expensive but well supplied. Supplies are way cheaper online (made my first purchase yesterday0 Also, some of the people there are not well informed, so use your judgement when talking to them.

What filter media are you using? I finally decided on mine.

Good luck.


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

I did not know we were arguing with you why cant we discuss are different views . LoL.
I did not Say most tanks dont cycle so dont say things That I did not say.
This is a forum to talk and learn . If I am wrong I am glad to learn and say so. 

Chill out.Or smoke1 if you need too.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

KeMo said:


> I did not know we were arguing with you why cant we discuss are different views . LoL.
> I did not Say most tanks dont cycle so dont say things That I did not say.
> This is a forum to talk and learn . If I am wrong I am glad to learn and say so.
> 
> Chill out.Or smoke1 if you need too.


different views ? SCIENCE is not a story, if your view doesnt match what science sais, your view is WRONG



KeMo said:


> I did not get a cycle in my tank as the LR was fully cured aswell.


hmmm ! who said that ?  maybe the red dude again 

forums ARE indeed to talk and learn, and it makes no sense to hold on to your "View" which is wrong when correct info are given to you.

I am not going to get into free floating bacteria (plankton) but I would like to see your reading on them which made u draw that conclusion .... and if it was just your opinion, then post that and say In My Opinion (IMO)

and Im prety chilled  it just makes no sense to me when someone sais Im here to learn and when new/different info are presented they ....

apologies if my posts have a "tone" its not intentional, but Im too logical to see arguments against science, specially since those arguments are mostly ones "opinion".

now lets not continue this, as I think we have already ruined the threadstarter's thread lol


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

Hmmm so I read everything and decided I would rather be safe than sorry and make sure the cycle is complete.

I am going to the LFS right now to pick up some pure ammonia and create an ammonia spike.

Dax, thank you for the great advice! Good point about the light fixture - I didn't know replacement bulbs were so expensive. In that case I'm going to wait until I'm reef ready to purchase my lights (that give me some breathing room financially for the next 6 months ) 

Also I have a question about live rock movement, should I wear some gloves or something? I've seen lots of worms, weird spiky things, and even a TINY coral-esque plant growing on this rock. Now I'm afraid to move it and I'm not 100% satisfied with the aquascaping


----------



## PACMAN (Mar 4, 2010)

im finding the aquascaping to be the hardest!


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

PACMAN said:


> im finding the aquascaping to be the hardest!


Agreed, especially when you're a perfectionist... grrr

I just re-aquascaped, as well as painted the back a flat black 

Pics are coming soon I promise!


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Joat said:


> Hmmm so I read everything and decided I would rather be safe than sorry and make sure the cycle is complete.
> 
> I am going to the LFS right now to pick up some pure ammonia and create an ammonia spike.
> 
> ...


you do not need ammonia to create a spike, what I was saying up there is that the spike of ammonia could be low enough for our test kits to not pick it up ... . you must be seeing some no2 and no3 right ? then you are on the right path, just wait and let no3 values go down.

I recommend starting with the same lights, since if (which is the case with almost all reefs) different lights produce different types of algae, so you can deal with it before introducing corals, your choice though, sometimes it helps the pocket to space it out 

alot of worms can sting u in a reef tank, I personally dont wear gloves and get stung ALOT lol but I dont mind it, if u do, gloves are a good choice if not, have a bucket of vinegar ready to dip ure hands in in case ...


----------



## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Aquascaping ... (especially if you're a perfectionist) ... is all trial and error until it actually materializes in front of you. I tried having a plan but the rocks didn't behave the way I wanted. You may want to use tie-wraps, etc.. to hold pieces together, but this might make it more difficult to make changes later. Right now you guys have time to try a few differnent things. Once you add stuff your perception of a good aquascape might change, so my recommendation is to try a few different setups and take a picture. This will make it easier to go back and forth. If you think doing it now is difficult wait till you have stuff in there.

Attached is my original layout. I liked it at first but eventually changed the right side, then eventually changed the left side. I never thought about it before but there was limited swimming space on the bottom and it was not open to the top ... so, my large fish hung out at the bottom, didn't move around too much and never came up. The last change was a few days ago so I don't have a recent picture, but the fish is moving around more. I can't really change the middle because of way the anemone is attached, but I'm sharing this to give you an idea of aquascaping challenges.

As for wearing gloves, if you don't mind using them, it is highly recommended. Note: There are all sorts of bacteria in there, so if you have a cut or scrape there might be a possibility of infection. Also, certain worm "stings" can be painful/itchy. Having said that, I don't use gloves because it is easier. I am careful where I grab and the critters are usually nowhere to be seen when my arm is in there. Think about it like driving with or without insurance if you had a choice.


----------



## aquanutt (Aug 27, 2010)

PACMAN said:


> im finding the aquascaping to be the hardest!


tell me about it,
I re arranged my rocks just about five times already!

lol
cheers


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

PH: 7.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5ppm

Rock is starting to get this brown layer of stuff over its surface, seems like its starting directly under the light and spreading slowly.

Been putting fish food in everyday. 

Still havn't recorded an ammonia spike


----------



## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Just re arranged the rocks again. Took me 4 painful hours. Is yours finalized yet?

With the amount of live sand and rock you have, your tank is probably already cycled. Have you put anything in yet?


----------



## Joat (Nov 2, 2010)

I have a three striped damsel and a clownfish in there right now 

Also 10 turbo snails

Everybody seems happy 

Live rock is still kinda dirty... also have lots of particles floating in the water, looks kinda ugly. I'm hoping future water changes will fix this issue.

I'm going to the LFS right now to buy some crabs and another fish, will post pics when I get back!!!


----------

