# Two female GBR



## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi folks
Just wondering from someone more experienced than in with german blue rams. I think i ended up with two females the other day instead of a pair. Now i wasn't really planning on breading them so i don't care that much as long as you don't think there is going to be any fighting problems. Please let me know what you think and i'll try and post some photos. 

thanks
Julian


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Two females are better then two males although they will still chase a little bit. One female will usually always be dominant over the other and may show a little better colour. 

But in the end a male and female pair will show the best colour. Post some pictures and ill tell ya what sex of fish you have. 

Even if you get a male and female the chances of them successfully breeding are slim to none in a community setup.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

ok cool i'll post some photos. One is female for sure she has a pretty pink belly, the other one is just questionable.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

ok i think i managed to get photos of two different fish and not the same one twice. I wasn't thinking when i was taking the photos that i was going to have to tell them apart after haha.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

The top is a female the bottom is the male. I can tell by the papilla in the photos alone. And the pink is a lot stronger on the top photo also.

Seems like you have a semi longfin variety in the female. 

They also look a bit rough. keep them fed on high quality food like NewLifeSpectrum, Brineshrimp, Blood worms and personally i chop up worms which are also good but not needed(bit messy). They will look 100x better in a few weeks from now. let us i know how they turn out! .


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

right now i have a good quality general flake food and frozen mini bloodworms which they sure seemed to like tonight. Anything else i should really be picking up. my understanding is that bloodworms shouldn't be given every day. 

Thanks very much for your help


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2010)

Tropicana said:


> The top is a female the bottom is the male. I can tell by the papilla in the photos alone. And the pink is a lot stronger on the top photo also.
> 
> Seems like you have a semi longfin variety in the female.
> 
> They also look a bit rough. keep them fed on high quality food like NewLifeSpectrum, Brineshrimp, Blood worms and personally i chop up worms which are also good but not needed(bit messy). They will look 100x better in a few weeks from now. let us i know how they turn out! .


hmmm. we do usually pick out the sexes of blue rams by the pink belly but on the true German morph males will also have some rosy hues on their sides.

I would think finnage would indicate the opposite sexing for these two. Look at the top picture the longer pointed anal fins and the tips to the caudal. Look at the difference in the dorsal as well. The bottom picture shows a fish with distinctively rounded fins. This is not a genetic mixing of varieties. These fish are from one of the most respected breeders in Germany and came in to the Menagerie from Aquarium Glaser this past Monday hence the roughness. These do look like a pair.

Watching these fish in the store nearly all the males have these forked tips on the tail and more robust size. They have been pairing up and defending little patches of the aquarium.

Takes some pictures in a month when these have settled in to get a better distinction

_*
"Some things I have found out about IDing the gender of males vs. females are;
1) the females have a more of a rounded tail and the male has a 'V' shape with 'sharp' corners on them
2) the males have a elongated 2nd ray in the dorsal fin
3) the males dorsal and anal fins at the back are more pointed then the females
4) the females have more red on their belly compared to the males
5) the obvious, the females are thicker/rounder when mature and able to mate"*_


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

you are right blood worms are maybe 2 times a week same with brine shrimp but brine shrimp cant really cause problems like blood worms can if fed all the time.

Well after breeding German blue rams for 2 years using good quality foods all you get are good results. 

When you run out of your current flake staple food I would only suggest getting NLS flake or pellets(small fish size) since it is the best food i have used and from what i hear about reviews on it. 

But other then that for rams keep temperature at 82deg F and maintain clean water!. by the looks of it you have the right habitat in mind.


rams are very much alike now days with finnage and the dorsal second/third spine being elongated in some females that it truly is hard to tell. Especially in long finned ram(variant) females do get the pointed ends which is very similar to males. So in some it takes an experienced eye to see the difference. Finnage is not as reliable as it used to be with all the inbred rams, many male traits are in females too.


male(right) and female (left). These are fry from 6 months ago which i have raised. You can see the distinct differences in sex for the species here. Luckily with good stock and selected fry the finnage is quite natural here.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

Yea you can really tell the difference in your photos for sure.


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## Abb (Mar 7, 2009)

Female ram = pink belly and Vagina(aka rounded papilla) - top picture. 

Male = no pink belly and penis(aka pointed papilla) - bottom picture. 

im going to have to agree with tropicana on this one. thanks though h_s.

PS. how do you tell angelfish apart?...


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm going to agree with Harold here. Top picture is male, bottom female. Dorsal, anal and caudal fin are the best indicators here. A more distinct pink belly will likely appear on your female as she matures and gets ready to spawn. 

You can't see the papilla well enough in either picture to judge based on it.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

shesh! i almost feel as if i am wrong but im sadly not. i guess we will see in a few weeks eh ladies? .

top female - bottom male.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

well i have a pair or gbr myself..and from the looks of your photo i dont think that the bottom one is a male. i'm pretty sure its a female.

anyways
make sure they have enough hiding places even if they do fight.
there is probably going to be alot of flaring from time to time but it should be fine.
even with nipped fins, they grow back very quickly so there isnt much to worri about these guys

good luck with them


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

If you say so, but three out of the four indicators show the top being male. Pink bellies, the only indicator here showing both as female, are typically the "cheat" way to sex them and not really an accurate indicator. I admit, I use it nine times out of ten though!

As for the papilla, I've only been able to see the difference when the ovispositor on the female drops to lay eggs, which this one is obviously not doing.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

thanks for all the comment, i didn't mean to start a fight though haha. As time goes on i will continue you post photos so you can all see how it goes.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2010)

I sent an email to the source of these particular fish.... for my own curiosity.

This is his answer.

*"Dear Mr. Slater, thank you very much for your email inquiry. As you know the Mikrogeophagus that we have sent to you originate from Ingo Frumolt of Dieburg. He produces close to 35,000 fish per year in over 25,000 liters of aquariums. I have sent him the website you have referred to me and he indicates that the fish are male and female. The top picture is male and the bottom picture is female. Colour is not always an indicator in the German colour morph. The fins are a more reliable distinction. I hope this answers your question. Thank you again, we look forward to your next order! Best regards, Uwe"
*
I know this may not convince you but this is from someone who knows.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I forgot to mention, nice pictures Julian!


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

haha no worries Julian we will all find out soon enough. But i am going to stand by the top pic as a female still and the bottom one id still say male but it isn't in the greatest shape to tell for sure yet. i cant wait to see progression pictures! lol.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

thanks, i took the photos with a nikon macro 105mm F2.8 VR lens. At least rams aren't the fastest moving fish around so its not so hard to take photos of them really. I flipped a lot around to give them more of a cave like area and they seems to like hanging out there for now.


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## BeerBaron (Sep 4, 2009)

While catching these for Julian I did catch the top one as the male and bottom as his female partner. It looks like the male has developed some pink on his belly that he was not displaying in the store.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Did they spawn and who laid the eggs?. if not then nothing is for sure. Stress is something that can keep a fish from showing its colours as we all know. let them settle in and recover from there travel and i am sure we will find out. They may even spawn fairly soon after recovery.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

They look pretty healthy to me, I wouldn't be amazed if they spawned right away!

As for using colour to determine sex: this is why finnage and body type is often a much better indicator.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Ah well, maybe with my experience breeding and seeing the resulting fry with females only having pink bellies. The elongated fins like the one shown which is called or other wise know as an Angel ram/long fin German blue ram which is a female, many fish have this long fin variant like the bristle nose pleco. The second one does not look in good condition it has no colour and it is beaten up i am not an idiot when i see a weaker fish. Its not in the worst condition I have seen though. The fish still seems rather juvenile. wait till it grows you will understand.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2010)

Tropicana said:


> Ah well, maybe with my experience breeding and seeing the resulting fry with females only having pink bellies. The elongated fins like the one shown which is called or other wise know as an Angel ram/long fin German blue ram which is a female, many fish have this long fin variant like the bristle nose pleco. The second one does not look in good condition it has no colour and it is beaten up i am not an idiot when i see a weaker fish. Is it only me who sees deteriorated fish?. Im not saying this fish is in the worst condition ever but its obviously not in 'great' condition.


wow... ok... this will be my last post on this thread as it has become quite silly.

so... the actual breeder of these particular fish, as a favour to me, takes a bit of time out to look at a couple of pictures on a website with a bunch of mainly hobbyist breeders etc and gives his highly qualified opinion on the genders of the fish pictured. This breeder, one of Europe's biggest almost solely specializing in Microgeophagus ramirezi, has been doing so for over 20 years.

I think his expertise outweighs the nouveau expertise of someone who has breeding Blue Rams for a scant two years.

As for the condition of these fish. These particular fish arrived in Toronto on Monday night after having being shipped from Germany on Monday morning. They were in the store for just over two days prior to being sold. Out of the nearly 750 fish in the shipment (90% being dwarf cichlids) there were only 6 casualties, none being Rams.

I have being keeping fish for around double the amount of years you have been on this planet (if 19 is your age) and importing/selling fish for just under 25 of those. In which time I have probably handled tens of thousands of fish.

I think I've seen a few Blue Rams in my day.

Don't take it personally.From what I have seen you have a promising future in the hobby.... and I think the ant colonies are pretty cool too.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't mean to try to take this out of proportion or anything its just i fell in love with this species of fish and i have looked at them everyday of my life for 2 years and i am not trying to be a dick but just because the breeder pops on and says his .2c doesn't mean hes right.

And for experience over 20 years well sure hes been breeding the fish successfully and made a living off it but others opinions can matter too. 

All i have said really is i am not sure on the bottom pic being a female since it looks to be male to me and the top picture is almost definitely a female in MY opinion. 

See over 2 years with this fish I have pretty much learned most there is to know about this species. I am happy that you lost very few fish during the transportation but thats not my point. the little guy is just beat up. No doubt you have seen many German blue rams but with so many inbred fish i am sure they have changed a bit over the years. A scant 2 years is enough to be able to ID a German blue rams sex. 

I am sorry if i came on a bit hard with my last post but it seems you are not giving my reason a chance. Give it time they are bound to breed they do that the best anyways.

Thanks for the compliments and i do hope you still will post on this topic..

I am unfamiliar with your store? or who you import to and would like to know because i have wanted to make a trip down to TO and check some of the stores out down there.

I do believe you are correct on the IDing with finnage but not in this one case. If you are open for opinion still. please take a look at the male in my photo, his pelvic fins are nice and elongated and his dorsal/anal fin come to a nice point. Now look at Julians top picture fish the pelvic fins are stubbed and the dorsal fin/ anal fin are much to long to even be a males and that is the reason why i say female long fin variant. Another fin ID is the dorsal rays. usually in males the first is quite short and the consecutive 2 are rather long and stand rather high on the dorsal fin. In julians fish this is not the case. You cannot say without speculation that thats not right.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

don't worry new photos will follow down the road in a week or two. As for now they seems to be settling in and happy. Almost schooling with the other fish in the tank.


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## jewel-stavroula (Jan 11, 2008)

I am glad to hear your pair are doing well, Julian I know you were probably nervous about putting in non local rams but, these are great quality fish and your setup will house them for a long time seeing as you're probably neurotic with upkeep and proper diet. I checked out the pictures of your 40g on the other thread and really must say, again, that it is looking great! 

Harold, a major part of youth is believing that you're always right and not admitting to your shortcomings; good call on the silence. Your decades of experience and strong background and contacts in the world of fish are top notch and have come in handy through numerous occasions where sexing is trickier than usual.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

thanks jewel yea i'm somewhat picky on things in my tank. Funny thing is algae is what pisses me off more than anything.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Tropicana said:


> I don't mean to try to take this out of proportion or anything its just i fell in love with this species of fish and i have looked at them everyday of my life for 2 years and i am not trying to be a dick but just because the breeder pops on and says his .2c doesn't mean hes right.


You remind me of me about six years ago .

You can't possibly be better at sexing rams than someone who's gone through tens of thousands of them and breeds them to sustain himself. 
There are many different subvariants of many species of fish who may vary in diet marking and disposition based on the area they are collected from. There are variants of Blue Ram with higher and lower levels of pink. I leaned towards male/female myself when I first saw the pictures. I say trust the breeder, and if he turns out to be wrong... then he's wrong. They look pretty male/female to me though top and bottom.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

i come back to this looking for some help. I saw another post about GBR and them "fighting" a bit but didn't want to hijack that. Anyway tonight i noticed my rams chasing each other a fair bit. Its what i'm now fairly sure is the male chasing around the female. Its not constant but sort of whenever they happy to swim to the same spot in the tank and see each other face to face. They chase for a few seconds and then the male gives up as the female go behind some plants or something. 

She doesn't seem to be hurt in anyway so far, i'm just wondering if this is the start of a problem. Yesterday they were just fine.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Your female should be safe in your aquarium since you have a lot of hiding places, i have had this happen before in a few pairs. It is only a concern then you notice your females fins frayed then she could possibly hurt badly in another attack. Only then should you move one of them to a holding tank. Its hard to say what a cure for this could be, but some rams are just more aggressive then others. I have had Females chase smaller rams and males chase well everyone lol. who is doing the chasing?.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

its the male chasing the female. Also i was watching them a bit more and its funny, because at first they were both hanging out in the same spot for a bit and everything was fine. Then all of the sudden chasing again. The female doesn't seem to be trying to hide either. There are a few good spots she could go but she'll be there for a second and then swim right back out again. 

I've turned off the light for the night hoping that calms them down haha.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

lol that should help. as long as there is no damage to the fish they will settle it. Good luck with them, I have just had my pair spawn. I am putting a video up on youtube tonight and making a post in the pictures section if your interested.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

I'd say it's an early stage of courtship, especially if she is sort of responding to him, rather than looking beaten and always trying to get away. As she gets more ready to spawn, the chasing will change to more cooperative behavior. Just keep the water clean and warm, and feed them well, and let things develop. Having a lot of hiding spots is good.

If you have some 'target fish' in the tank, like small tetras, the male can express his aggressive tendencies by chasing them instead. He may be diverting some of his 'drive egg predators away from the spawning site' instinct to chasing the female if there's nothing else to chase.

Don't worry too much -- see how things develop over the next few days. Keep us informed!


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Like bae says, perfectly normal behaviour. The male is just beginning to court the female.


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## Julian (Jun 29, 2008)

everyone seems a bit better today, thanks for the support guys


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

How are the rams doing?. updated pics! .


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