# shrimp keep dying



## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

I have a 10 gallon shrimp tank that has been running for about 3 months now. Its planted with a carpet of glosso and has a moss tree. I had 10 yellow, 8 crystal reds and 8 bumblebee shrimp in the tank. In the recent weeks i've started to lose a couple shrimp every several days. I've lost 5 of my crystal reds, 2 bumblebees and 1 yellow so far. The shrimp weren't fully grown so i'm positive they didn't die of old age. 

I have been dosing flourish excel everyday, and flourish twice a week. I'm going to stop dosing the ferts so often to see if it helps but i was wondering if anyone might have any ideas as to why i might be losing my shrimp. I've had success breeding my shrimp in every other tank i have except this one. This is the first tank that i've set up using sand and flourite. 

I've tested the water, the ph is at 8 - just like all of my other tanks, temp is set at 78F, nitrates are 10, nitrites are 0, ammonia is 0. I have several pieces of granite in the tank, a piece of manzanita driftwood and another piece of regular driftwood. There are also 2 ottos in the tank. My yellows have carried eggs a couple times but always ended up dropping them so thats a sign that theres something wrong in the tank but i can't figure it out. 

Thanks for reading, i appreciate your help.


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## WiyRay (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm pretty sure it might be due to the excel. 
I OD'd on my 10g and my cherry died the next day. 
I OD'd on my 46g and same thing with an amano the next day.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

WiyRay said:


> I'm pretty sure it might be due to the excel.
> I OD'd on my 10g and my cherry died the next day.
> I OD'd on my 46g and same thing with an amano the next day.


Yea i'm starting to think thats the problem - i'm going to stop with the excel for now and see how it goes for a week or two. I'll probably have to start doing diy co2 to keep any algae from going crazy on me.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

It's the excel. Guaranteed. It screws shrimp up every time.


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## mointhehouse128 (Feb 7, 2009)

AquariAM said:


> It's the excel. Guaranteed. It screws shrimp up every time.


Yes, it is....I used to use Excel but I noticed my RCS pop declining rapidly.

Does excel have copper in it? And will any other Flourish ferts kill my shrimp? (for example, Flourish: Iron, Potassium, Phosphate, Nitrogen, and just the regular Flourish).


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

mointhehouse128 said:


> Does excel have copper in it?


It should not. Many people dose Excel with no problem in their shrimp tanks. It is usually the overdose that kills shrimp.



mointhehouse128 said:


> And will any other Flourish ferts kill my shrimp? (for example, Flourish: Iron, Potassium, Phosphate, Nitrogen, and just the regular Flourish).


There is always the possibility of any fertilizer killing shrimp. The dose makes the poison.


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

I've been dosing my 5.5gal with Excel at a rate of .50mL and my remaining red cherry shrimp is still alive. Others got oddly picked to death by the zebra danios in the other tank. >__<;; So yes Excel and shrimp does work so it may be an overdosing or the ferts. I've not had any issues and this RCS is still alive since we won gold in hockey.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

I appreciate everyone's help and feedback. I'm going to stop with the excel for a few days and see what happens. I was dosing 0.9 ml of excel for my 10 gal every morning, and 0.9 ml of flourish twice a week on sundays after a waterchange and wednesdays to help my taiwan moss green up. I'll let you know how it goes - thanks again.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Jonathon, Do a big water change to clear out that flourish excel. I know other people who have lost shrimp with this product...don't know what is in it that they don't like but it kills them.

I don't use anything in my shrimp tanks at all, moss grows incredibly and even floating bamboo has shoots...*no fertilizers* and I have sand and gravel (pea gravel the white stuff and I use Shultz's Aqua Soil too)

My yellows are all berried and I have lots of little ones running around...I am going to have to move them to a bigger tank.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

There might have been a build up on excel in an area of the tank? I know that people say do larger water changes when dosing to clear the build up of excess nutrients, etc.
*
FLOURISH on the other hand DOES have a tiny amount of COPPER..*

but Seachem says all animals need copper to help blood flow. Maybe there was a build up or something?

Water changes, and syphon the bottom of the tank real well. There might be dead spots. ie; I was having tigers die in one spot in my tank where there wasn't much flow.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

I've never killed shrimp with excel but I had very happy large healthy amano shrimp that I had been in posession of for a very long time. Dosed the tank with excel as specified on the label at the volume and frequency suggested. Within 2 weeks the shrimp became lethargic and started to turn opaque, so I stopped using it. It took about a month for them to get back to normal. I would definitely not use Excel in a tank wtih shrimp ever again.


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## arktixan (Mar 30, 2010)

When I read the bottle of Flourish Excel... it said dose after every 10-20% water change which = once a week which i only use half a cap since I am doing a 20% water change.

Unless I misread the bottle...
"on inital use or after a major (>40%) water change use 1 capful (5mL) for every 10g. Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200L(50g) daily or every other day. "


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bettaforu said:


> Jonathon, Do a big water change to clear out that flourish excel. I know other people who have lost shrimp with this product...don't know what is in it that they don't like but it kills them.
> 
> I don't use anything in my shrimp tanks at all, moss grows incredibly and even floating bamboo has shoots...*no fertilizers* and I have sand and gravel (pea gravel the white stuff and I use Shultz's Aqua Soil too)
> 
> My yellows are all berried and I have lots of little ones running around...I am going to have to move them to a bigger tank.


Hey Anna, i'm glad to hear your yellows are doing so well. I actually just found a berried female in my tank  , i'm hoping she doesn't drop her eggs like the other shrimp. Let me know when you're down in the markham area, my dad is in the process of getting the tank stocked with plants and all the fish are active now - so you can drop by and actually see the fish this time 

I've gone ahead and done a 50% water change on my tank after finding another dead shrimp, hopefully i won't have any more problems. The funny thing is that i've been dosing excel and flourish in my crs tank for the past 6 months or so without any problems, but that tank is very densely planted so it might be different than with my yellow shrimp tank.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Will do Jonathon....I would say, maybe because there's not a lot of plants to absorb whatever minute traces of copper in the excel/flourish that this might have contributed to the deaths of the shrimps.

I would just NOT use it in my shrimp tanks if I were you...

I have the healthiest plants growing in get this.....a 10 gallon tank with bare bottom and a bubble stone! No filter, nothing....they are growing up through the top of the water, and the moss is sooo thick I can barely see into it. 

I will have to take them all out and see what I have in there....on top of that...I have just seen baby shrimps swimming around in there too! 

I must have left a couple of orange bee shrimps and red cherry's in there by mistake and goodness they're having a ball!  

Just goes to show that you don't NEED all those chemicals to grow plants with or keep shrimp happy... Nature has a way of taking care of itself...when we start dosing tanks with lots of chemicals, I think we throw off the natural balance of things.....time to stop using chemicals


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

jon021 said:


> I appreciate everyone's help and feedback. I'm going to stop with the excel for a few days and see what happens. I was dosing 0.9 ml of excel for my 10 gal every morning, and 0.9 ml of flourish twice a week on sundays after a waterchange and wednesdays to help my taiwan moss green up. I'll let you know how it goes - thanks again.


In my 10 gal I have no shrimp andI dose my 10 gal with between 3-5mL every other or few days. I've got 2 x ~23W CFL's in there. Recently I dropped down to 3mL in the 10gal to be safe. I'm mainly dosing to keep the BBA away which is is doing that well and also have cut back on feeding. Green spot algae is coming back often but that's probably because I have the lights on for 9-10hrs. No fish loss yet in the 10 gal as I've got 2 x otocats, 5 x z.danios, and a few ramhorn snails. My dosing has been for about 2 months.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

AquaNeko said:


> In my 10 gal I have no shrimp andI dose my 10 gal with between 3-5mL every other or few days. I've got 2 x ~23W CFL's in there. Recently I dropped down to 3mL in the 10gal to be safe. I'm mainly dosing to keep the BBA away which is is doing that well and also have cut back on feeding. Green spot algae is coming back often but that's probably because I have the lights on for 9-10hrs. No fish loss yet in the 10 gal as I've got 2 x otocats, 5 x z.danios, and a few ramhorn snails. My dosing has been for about 2 months.


I've been dosing 3ml in my 29 gallon every day for over a month now without any problems as well, but that tank has no shrimp. I suppose shrimp are much more sensitive to the excel than the fish are. I was dosing excel as a co2 substitute, so i guess i'll just stop the excel and go with the diy co2 instead.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I think diy-co2 in a 10g might be an algae bloom waiting to happen. 

I think you should lower the stock levels, and increase the frequency of water changes, as well as discontinuing the excel for a month, rather than add co2, if algae is a problem.

If nitrates can accumulate to ten, my experience is that I get random deaths that I don't think are the nitrates but other things which can also build up to about 10-20 ppm. Total pollution in my tank when my nitrates are at 10 ppm, is probably closer to 100 ppm. I would aim for nitrates half of the level where livestock start to die, and even if it's not the 10 ppm nitrates causing your shrimp any harm (I doubt that!), the nitrates are the marker that tell you how much accumulation of other stuff there could be.

I have seen livestock live for years in 20-200 ppm nitrate (plus who knows what else), in my brother's tank. He is one of the guys who never got the memo about water changes. I have tried to educate him, but now the need is past as he's mothballed his tank. (We call all breath a sigh of relief.) I have also seen new fish come into a tank with 10 ppm nitrates and die overnight. I think the answer to "how much nitrates will kill your livestock" is, "it depends on the other things in there, and what kind of livestock it is". 

How I wish I had a water analyzer with instant readouts of all major and minor content in the water other than the pure h2o.

W


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## arktixan (Mar 30, 2010)

I only does my Flourish excel weekly... I don't have a problem.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I think diy-co2 in a 10g might be an algae bloom waiting to happen.
> 
> I think you should lower the stock levels, and increase the frequency of water changes, as well as discontinuing the excel for a month, rather than add co2, if algae is a problem.
> 
> ...


I'm not adding co2 to control algae, rather than have it help accelerate plant growth. My tank is only currently inhabited by 15 shrimp and 2 otos, which i believe have a relatively low bioload. I'm running a 28 watt power compact fixture over my tank, which falls in the medium-low light category, if i don't use any co2, wouldn't i eventually get an algae bloom as well?

I have a 3.5 gallon tank running with a similar lighting wattage and that tank has a major algae problem. A couple nerites however, were able to take care of the stuff on the glass and currently spot treating the plants with excel. I'm not too concerned with the 3.5g since it'll be torn down in a couple weeks but i don't want the same thing to happen to my 10 gal.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Flourish Excel contains glutaraldehye - which is a biocide (as polycycloglutaracetal). It can kill some plants and algaes, so I'm sure it can kill some more sensitive inverts. Inverts might be fine with it till they're molting when they're particularly succeptible to chemicals - which would explain why they're fine for weeks and months, and then suddenly seem to die. They get hit when they molt, after a few months in the tank seemingly fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutaraldehyde


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> Flourish Excel contains glutaraldehye - which is a biocide (as polycycloglutaracetal). It can kill some plants and algaes, so I'm sure it can kill some more sensitive inverts. Inverts might be fine with it till they're molting when they're particularly succeptible to chemicals - which would explain why they're fine for weeks and months, and then suddenly seem to die. They get hit when they molt, after a few months in the tank seemingly fine.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutaraldehyde


That makes alot of sense now, i had been dosing for a couple weeks without any problems and then they all started to drop like flies. I'd find a dead shrimp every several days, and i noticed there were shells lying around the tank. I guess i'll only use the excel on my fish only tanks now. Thanks for the info.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

I've done several water changes since i stopped using the excel, but i've continued to experience some shrimp deaths. I've lost 3 shrimp in the past 4 days, all seemingly healthy before i found them dead in the morning. Would soemthing like excel have prolonged effects on the shrimp, explaining the continued deaths even though its been roughly a week since the last dosage? I've tested my water over and over again and i can't find anything wrong with it. I'm starting to wonder if maybe its my driftwood - or possibly the sand i'm using in my tank. Has anyone else had any issues with manzanita driftwood from lucky's? or using the black sand from menageries?


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I've had death tank before. This I suspect from overdosing with Excel. The kicker is that invariable a few will survive and live for a long time. I had a few survivors that live for a year before they died. But all attempts to rejuvinate the population continue to result it more deaths. I end up nuking the entire tank and start fresh with new substrate and media. After that, things was OK.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

Zebrapl3co said:


> I've had death tank before. This I suspect from overdosing with Excel. The kicker is that invariable a few will survive and live for a long time. I had a few survivors that live for a year before they died. But all attempts to rejuvinate the population continue to result it more deaths. I end up nuking the entire tank and start fresh with new substrate and media. After that, things was OK.


I was afraid of that, i guess if things don't improve, i'll tear the tank down as you did and start fresh. Thanks for the help.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Just a thing - I use CO2 to control algae growth, and no-CO2 to get algae. 
It's DIY on a 10 gal. 


Do you have good flow through the tank? any dead zones?
Shrimp die very suddenly.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

BettaBeats said:


> Just a thing - I use CO2 to control algae growth, and no-CO2 to get algae.
> It's DIY on a 10 gal.
> 
> Do you have good flow through the tank? any dead zones?
> Shrimp die very suddenly.


I'm currently setting up my diy co2 as well to control algae and help my plant growth - just gotta get some suction cups to hold the tubing in place. Flow is good in the tank, no dead spots. For the past 2 days haven't lost any shrimp, hoping it stays that way.


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## arktixan (Mar 30, 2010)

If you don't mind me asking, can you post pics of the dead shrimp? Sometimes with the way they died, and colour it can also narrow down why they are dying as well.. especially if you have stopped with the excel.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

arktixan said:


> If you don't mind me asking, can you post pics of the dead shrimp? Sometimes with the way they died, and colour it can also narrow down why they are dying as well.. especially if you have stopped with the excel.


hey sorry, i don't have any pics available. The deaths habe stopped for the past 2 days, and i hope it stays that way. The shrimps are usually just very pale in colour after death. The yellows turn almost transparent, and the crystal reds just turn pink and white.


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## WiyRay (Jan 11, 2009)

Hey Jon,

I've got a 10g "experimental" tank consisting of everything that wasn't really compatible/ hitchhiked/ unwanted from the "main" tank. 

So heavily planted with...
Java Moss, duckweed, riccia, hornwort, rotala, dying sprouts of bamboo, and small salvaged pieces of HC cuba/ HM. (A downoi plant being added recently just to see how it fares)

Livestock being...
hitchhiked cherry shrimps, 2 black crystal shrimps, a pair of non-shrimp eating dwarf puffers.

Substrate is just a 1" layer of potting soil followed by 1cm of some kind of black sparkly sand.

I've started dosing the tank with excel following the recommendations trying to get some of the HC cuba to grow back. I'll let you know if shrimps start dying off too.

(And yes, yes, yes, I know this tank is a disaster waiting to happen. I've had this tank running for about 6 months now where it started as essentially my "garbage bin" and things just started growing in there for some unknown inexplicable reason.)


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

WiyRay said:


> Hey Jon,
> 
> I've got a 10g "experimental" tank consisting of everything that wasn't really compatible/ hitchhiked/ unwanted from the "main" tank.
> 
> ...


Alright cool, let me know how that goes. Where did you get your crystal blacks by the way? I've been looking for some decent grades for a while now.


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## WiyRay (Jan 11, 2009)

jon021 said:


> Alright cool, let me know how that goes. Where did you get your crystal blacks by the way? I've been looking for some decent grades for a while now.


From BA NY. They were 4.99 each  .

They're nothing that you would want to get lol. I picked out 2 which had the most visible white on them and not transparent. At best I would have called them C+ there. When they got home and now acclimated, they're about B-ish.

[Plan: Buy RCS from Jamesren in about a month and hope they interbreed right.]


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

Good plan, i'd pick up some of James' S grade crystal reds - they have beautiful patterns and a solid white. They'll also help bump your B grade crystal blacks up much faster.



WiyRay said:


> From BA NY. They were 4.99 each  .
> 
> They're nothing that you would want to get lol. I picked out 2 which had the most visible white on them and not transparent. At best I would have called them C+ there. When they got home and now acclimated, they're about B-ish.
> 
> [Plan: Buy RCS from Jamesren in about a month and hope they interbreed right.]


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

*Black sand from menageries*

Just wondering if anyone else has tried keeping shrimp with the black sand that menageries sells in the barrels? I believe it was going for $1 a pound, i'm still experiencing a bit of trouble with my shrimp in my 10 gal - i've stopped dosing ferts all together, removed some driftwood that i thought might be an issue and pretty much only have plants in the tank now yet I'm still losing shrimp. The deaths stopped for 2 weeks and started again just recently. I lose 2 crs, 1 yellow and 2 of my amanos. It's possible that the shrimp have already been "poisoned" from the excel and are now showing the effects, but i'm just slightly worried that it might be the sand. If it is the case i'll have no choice but to tear down the tank and redo it with eco-complete or something.


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

jon021 said:


> Just wondering if anyone else has tried keeping shrimp with the black sand that menageries sells in the barrels? I believe it was going for $1 a pound, i'm still experiencing a bit of trouble with my shrimp in my 10 gal - i've stopped dosing ferts all together, removed some driftwood that i thought might be an issue and pretty much only have plants in the tank now yet I'm still losing shrimp. The deaths stopped for 2 weeks and started again just recently. I lose 2 crs, 1 yellow and 2 of my amanos. It's possible that the shrimp have already been "poisoned" from the excel and are now showing the effects, but i'm just slightly worried that it might be the sand. If it is the case i'll have no choice but to tear down the tank and redo it with eco-complete or something.


That sang in menageries is Black Moon Sand. It's inert. It should not cause any problems.

Amano is quite hardy shrimp as I see.
Have you done a big water change?
What temperature is there?
How do you feed them?


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

Hey Igor, are you positive that the sand is black moon sand? Some people were saying that it was "metal slag", which is the residual leftovers after metals are melted down, so its supposed to be 100% free of metals but i'm worried even a trace amount could affect my shrimp. 

My water changes are never more than 25%, temperature is kept at 77F, i feed them every other day with half a piece of sinking wafer, anything left after 10 mins is removed. Its only this tank that's having problems, my 2 other shrimp tanks are doing great. The only different thing that i did in this tank was the sand, manzanita driftwood instead of "regular driftwood" and the flourish excel that i was using, but i stopped using excel for almost 3 weeks now.


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

jon021 said:


> Hey Igor, are you positive that the sand is black moon sand? Some people were saying that it was "metal slag", which is the residual leftovers after metals are melted down, so its supposed to be 100% free of metals but i'm worried even a trace amount could affect my shrimp.
> 
> My water changes are never more than 25%, temperature is kept at 77F, i feed them every other day with half a piece of sinking wafer, anything left after 10 mins is removed. Its only this tank that's having problems, my 2 other shrimp tanks are doing great. The only different thing that i did in this tank was the sand, manzanita driftwood instead of "regular driftwood" and the flourish excel that i was using, but i stopped using excel for almost 3 weeks now.


Yes, I'm sure that it's a moon sand. I asked Matt about it. Tahitian is only moon sand I see on sale here.
I think that _metal slag_ can't be some black and stale in coloration.

Everything looks fine with your temperature and feeding.

I'm just guessing, but some harmful chemicals from Excel could be absorbed by a driftwood and it's releasing them now ...


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

igor.kanshyn said:


> Yes, I'm sure that it's a moon sand. I asked Matt about it. Tahitian is only moon sand I see on sale here.
> I think that _metal slag_ can't be some black and stale in coloration.
> 
> Everything looks fine with your temperature and feeding.
> ...


are you using the same sand on your tank?


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

igor.kanshyn said:


> Yes, I'm sure that it's a moon sand. I asked Matt about it. Tahitian is only moon sand I see on sale here.
> I think that _metal slag_ can't be some black and stale in coloration.
> 
> Everything looks fine with your temperature and feeding.
> ...


i was also told by the seachem people that excel only stays in teh tank for 24 hours and that there cant possibly be any excel residue left in the tank by now, especially since i've done several water changes since then. I just can't figure out whats wrong and its driving me crazy


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

jon021 said:


> are you using the same sand on your tank?


No. I use Flourite Black Sand. 
It's not so nice, but it has nutrients for plants.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

if i can't find anyone whos used the black sand safely with shrimp long term, i'll probably tear down the tank next week and use eco-complete as a substrate


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

jon021 said:


> if i can't find anyone whos used the black sand safely with shrimp long term, i'll probably tear down the tank next week and use eco-complete as a substrate


Technically, moon sand should work like a lot of glass grains  I mean, It's no influence to a water at all.
Look here: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/black-tahitian-moon-sand-104171.html. People use it.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

igor.kanshyn said:


> Technically, moon sand should work like a lot of glass grains  I mean, It's no influence to a water at all.
> Look here: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/black-tahitian-moon-sand-104171.html. People use it.


Hey igor, thanks for all your help - the sand in that thread looks a bit different than the one i have. I can't really figure out whats wrong with my tank, theres nothing left in the tank only the sand and plants now. At the moment, i think the best thing to do is to tear the tank down and start all over. I'm going to move all my remaining shrimp into one of my other tanks for now.


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah, It's a shame 

Buy try to find positive thing there. New setup means new aquascape.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

I have been using the black moon sand for over a year now and all my shrimps are doing great.


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