# Fish Health Question and Medication Recommendation?



## shellybee (Jan 25, 2010)

Recently my female dwarf gourami developed a sore lip. It appeared as if it had been cut on the bottom and was reddish. The redness disappeared, but it now looks as if it is slowly eroding. Around the same time I noticed that my new female german ram had some marks on her that were not there when I got her. Specifically there was a tiny white pimple-like bump on her side, and a couple of tiny whitish patches on her anal fin. Her gill covers also don't seem right to me. They are held open (flared) more than usual and provide a clear view of her gills even directly from the side.
Both fish show no change in behaviour or eating habits, acting very normal. The male ram has no marks but also has similar gill appearance. The male dwarf gourami was banished to another tank for being a bully to the tetras and for shredding by plants. Oddly enough he now seems to have a mark on his forehead like he's bumped it&#8230;
When it rains it pours&#8230;. No one else in the tank seems affected, lemon tetras, otos, amanos, and fan shrimp.
Curious if anyone has any idea of what their issues are caused by. The white bits on the ram don't seem to be ich, as I have seen that before and this is different. Plus it's only her that's affected.
I have now isolated both rams and the female gourami to a QT and have dosed with Melafix and Pimafix. How long should I wait to see if there is an improvement before switching to something else? 
What would you recommend to try next? I have some Jungle Fungus Eliminator which seems to also be an antibiotic with the same ingredients as API Furan-2. My other thoughts were a Maracyn/Maracyn 2 combo that people have mentioned. To further confuse me there is another Maracyn product, Maracyn Plus&#8230; I have never used any of these products, so any advice or experience is appreciated, thank you. 
Sorry for the long post.

1) Size of tank 32gal
2) temperature of tank 76F
3) ammonia reading 0
4) nitrite reading 0
5) nitrate reading 10-20
6) pH 7.2
7) decor of the tank (ie, substrate, plants etc) flourite, planted
8) how long has this tank been set up and running? filtration? 3mo, AC 50
9) water change frequency and amount 25% weekly
10) tank mates lemon tetras, otos, amanos, fan shrimp
11) symptoms description (including growths on the body, behaviour, etc) see above
12) how long has the symptoms persisted. 1 1/2 wks
13) did you already take any actions? if so, what are they? see above
14) did you already use any medication? if so, what did you use and how much? see above
15) if possible, a clear pic is worth a million words in this case..lol. I'll try...


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

The whitish pimple like thing and the whitish fin sound like they might be bacterial. The eroding lip sounds like it might be bacterial too. If you get pictures, that's much better.

If I had mela and pima fix and a seperate tank with a cycled filter and a heater, and the fish's condition appeared severe enough I would likely have done what you've done. Not sure the melafix is necessary or beneficial in this particular situation. 

Honestly the most surefire thing to do would be to get a big picture, blow it up, and ask Harold at Menagerie to tell you what it is. That's about as air tight of a diagnosis as you're going to get in my opinion. He can help you select the correct medication, if any are required, and if you don't already have it you can buy it there.


----------



## shellybee (Jan 25, 2010)

Managed to get some pictures in the QT...
Major things on the ram include:
RH gill cover, seems to be eroded rather than just flared out.
RHS of dorsal at body edge, white spot with red speck in centre.
RHS of anal fin at body edge, white patchy bits.
RHS behind eye area is white and protruding.
Gourami lip is much worse than I thought now that i see the close-up.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

That looks pretty severe on the gourami. The Ram doesn't look too bad other than the eroded gill operculum. I would honestly blow up the picture of the gourami's lip and the side of the ram and take them to Harold. I really would. I think it looks bacterial but you want to be 100% sure you get it right.

Great pictures. Definitely 100% good enough to get a perfect diagnosis from someone capable of doing that. He's there weekdays 10-7


----------



## shellybee (Jan 25, 2010)

*Desperate for help now*

This has now become a wide-spread disaster. I did get a suggestion from Menagerie, but by the second dose the female ram was gone and the gourami followed shortly thereafter. Before starting the course of new meds, I had moved the male ram back into the main tank as he seemed to be ok, and I didn't want to unnecessarily subject him to more meds.
Around mid-May, the male ram started to look bad again, fins had frayed spots, white areas, yet his behaviour was fine. Then the lemon tetras began to show troubles. Two had white patches on their tails, another had a 'sore' on his forehead. Did frequent water changes, to no avail.
All 7 tetras and the ram were removed from the tank and put in a QT on 1 June. Tank has filtration with sponge from main tank, temp is 78F.
Here is what I've tried so far:
1 June: Dosed with Maracyn and Maracyn 2.
After 3 days there was absolutely no improvement.
5 June: Changed tanks and switched to a treatment of Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus Eliminator.
7 June: 25% water change, redosed Kanaplex and switched the JFE to Furan-2. They have identical active ingredients, but the Furan-2 is a daily dose, whereas the JFE is every 4 days. I don't understand this, but switched to the more frequent dose as there was still no improvement.
8 June: Redosed Furan-2. All fish still look the same, ZERO improvement.

Now I really don't know what to try next. TC and Triple Sulfa are two other things I haven't tried. Read bad things about TC - not effective and really bad side effects. I'm desperate now, so I guess I should try anything.
Does anyone have any suggestions of what to try?
My subsequent dilemma is the main tank...does it need to be treated? If so, how and what, considering the resistance of this thing. I also have 4 fan shrimp and 4 amanos in there so I'm limited with what I can use.
First thing's first, I'm desperate to cure my fish.
Please, any help is appreciated.


----------



## neovision (Jun 11, 2010)

Triple Sulfa has worked well in the past with my neon dwarf gouramis. The only thing you have to be careful of with sulfur based medications is to make sure there is absolutely no copper in your water from previous meds... the sulfur apparently reacts with the copper and turns toxic...

If the fish are still eating, I would suggest feeding them their regular food soaked in some antibiotics like TC or EM. Traditionally I've mixed the med in a small quantity of water and mixed my food in, allowed it to soak for about 5-10 minutes and then fed. This method also works for other meds and vitamins.

Salt has also been used as a preventative/stress relieving agent (one tablespoon per 10 gallons). It does have some mild antibacterial/parasitic abilities to it as well. I would probably try a bit to see if there was an improvement... I've used it in the past for my African Cichlids when they'd be getting into the occasional territorial dispute and suffering torn/damaged fins etc...


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

If the fish are eating, medicated food is the way to go. Jungle and Tetra both make one.
As far as adding drugs to the water, I have had limited luck with anything but Kanamyacin, at 3 times the package dose. This is the dose recommended in the Tetra Manual of Fish Health. The package dosages are low, to placate the FDA and I think it does more harm than good, in the long term.


----------



## shellybee (Jan 25, 2010)

Here's an update. I'm still completely confused as to what this is and how to treat it. Thank you for your suggestions.
Got yet another opinion and advice from a knowledgeable guy at BA Mississauga. He really seemed to know a lot about fish diseases etc. His thoughts were that it may be parasitic, and the skin lesions are a secondary thing. On his recommendation I started dosing with metronidazol and put acriflavin in the water (nice colour!), as well as some salt. I also mix the metro in with their food. The male ram since died, and there is still zero improvement with the tetras. One of the tetras has such a giant area of necrosis, I can't believe it's acting normal. This seems to be a resistant bacterial infection, nothing is touching it. So today I will pick up some medicated food, and perhaps try the increased dose of kanaplex. Maybe a meth blue dip as well...I'm really desperate.
To add to it, I noticed that one of my cories in the main tank (the only fish left in there) has a big white patch on his face. WHAT IS THIS THING??
Will I need to nuke the whole tank? I thought bacteria would only affect weak or stressed out fish...mine were all super healthy and it's getting all of them.
Thanks again for your help.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Have you shown the pictures to Harold from Menagerie? He almost always knows what to do


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Sounds like your best bet is to move everything still alive to a QT tank and bleach out the main tank.

If you aren't interested in doing that, I would suggest treating the whole tank to some yummy medication.

I'd suggest feeding any still eating fish oxytetracycline, tetracycline or kanamycin.

If some aren't eating, or you just want to dose the whole tank, I would do another round of Maracyn on the tank along with Maracyn-Two, which will treat any aeromonas that often become secondary infections of bacterial infections such as flexibacter. 

If you are successfully feeding kanamycin, I believe it also treats aeromonas, so Maracyn-Two is not likely necessary.

On top of this, water changes are important.

As for the cause of your problems, it is hard to say, but stress is the most common factor, especially when it comes to gram-negative bacterial infections.

Hope this helps some.


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

A few things to note. Treatments often take time, especially in antibiotic baths. Not all of them are readily absorbed. All treatments should be preceded by a large water change ( 50% or more), to remove as many of the offending organisms as possible, and cleaning the water in general. The dosages on over the counter packages are usually too low to be truly useful. Some drugs like Tetracyline are affected by calcium in the water so the dosages must be a lot higher in hard water.
Unfortunately, diagnosing disease is not easy at best, and treatments are not always effective. More often than not, sadly, the fish can be replaced for less than the cost of the treatment.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

BillD said:


> The dosages on over the counter packages are usually too low to be truly useful.


It is interesting you mention this Bill, as I have had the same experiences using "anti-fungal" medications (I put that in quotations, as I believe most anti-fungal medications are actually anti-bacterial in nature). I have had success in using a 5g tank as a treatment tank and doubling the dosage. Combined with a large daily water change, it seems to be more effective.

It is also important to note that medication should continue for up to three days after any symptoms have cleared.


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

the problem with the dosages, is that low dosages have been specified to placate the FDA and allow the drugs to be sold over the counter. we know the dangers of underdosing antibiotics, but this practice persisted. If you check the dosage of Kanamyacin on the package, it is 150 mg for 10 gallons. The recommended amount in the Tetra Manual of Fish Health (written by vetrinarians) is around 13 mg per liter. That is around 3 times the dose on the package. I used it at the rate of one cap in a 3 1/2 gallon tank instead of the 10 gal. it was far more effective in my experience. Kanamyacin is one of the few drugs that is absorbed through the skin and across the gills which makes it more effective to begin with.


----------

