# What could be wrong with my water



## syz (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi all, 

I have a feeling there could be something wrong with my water. 

I have a 72 gal fresh water tank with Gouramis and a few loaches and 2 tri-color sharks. 

Last night I changed the water after some time. I normally do the 10% rule, but this time around I took out maybe a bit more as I have not changed the water for a while as I was busy with school etc. I topped up the tank with tap water and added the required about of the 3 BA's water treatments. (Blue label, red and yellow labels)

Today I noticed that a lot of my fish are swimming near the top and grabbing whole bunch of air. This is not usually for my fish especially the bottom feeders. At first I didnt think much of it, but than went back to my tank about and hour later and of of my sharks had already turned up side down. ( I am really mad about this one especially as I had it for almost a year now and it grew pretty big). 

What could be the problem here. Would it be that I put too much tap water in or too much of the water treatments in. 

Please help.


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## Burtess (Jan 17, 2007)

I would not think that it is the volume of fresh water that was added, I do 50% WC all the time and have no problems.

The amount of water treatment could be a problem though. Adding excess can consume oxygen and this sounds that it could be the problem. I am not familiar with the Big Als chemicals as I am a strict Prime user. Prime suggests using a half dose if the water temp is high and chlorine is low.

What are the other water parameters, ammonia / nitrite / nitrate ?

Burt


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## syz (Oct 22, 2007)

Burtess said:


> I would not think that it is the volume of fresh water that was added, I do 50% WC all the time and have no problems.
> 
> The amount of water treatment could be a problem though. Adding excess can consume oxygen and this sounds that it could be the problem. I am not familiar with the Big Als chemicals as I am a strict Prime user. Prime suggests using a half dose if the water temp is high and chlorine is low.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I don't have a tester.

If this is the case where the oxygen level is low, is there anything I can do to fix it.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

when you removed the water did you double check the filters? What kind do you have? Sometimes they can loose their prime if too much water is removed depending on your filter set up.

Also did you add back the same temp water? 

You can add a air pump or power head for 02 issues....

I hope we can help figure this out for you, I am sorry for the losses.


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## lili (Dec 15, 2007)

Hi.

Get the API liquid testers (amonia and nitrites) and you will find out what it is. 

Could be a minicycle in a old 72g ? I know one of my 10g can play the nitrite trick after some medication .... 

Water changes 30% should help.
L


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## Gargoyle (Aug 21, 2008)

Any chance you have a stuck heater? Or a defective one in general?

If that's not it, I would do another water change - careful with the chemicals. Dose for the amount you add, not the tank volume.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

I think it may be that you have over treated the tank, and that (barring equipment failure) has caused a crash in dissolved oxygen. Add an airstone, or position your filters so that they cause a lot of surface disturbance.

Being at the surface , along with huffing or rapid breathing, usually indicates a lack of dissolved oxygen (DO) in the water.

The gouramis shouldn't mind too much about the low DO (they can breathe air, as can most loaches). The sharks however do not have this gift, so they probably suffocated.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

Gah!!!

That exact same thing happened to me last February. I lost 2 zebra danios and 2 juvenile C. napoensus. <bangs head on wall, tears out what little hair he has>

As near as I and everyone else I've been in touch with can figure, it was a chloramine spike; nothing else makes sense.

Since then I've PRE-TREATED my water (cold water only) with 150% - 200% the recommend antichlor amount and let stand for at least 12 hours that disaster has not been repeated. That's why I'm so anal about pre treating the water (everyone does say I'm an a-hole)...

"Better to be safe than sorry."


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

ameekplec. said:


> I think it may be that you have over treated the tank, and that (barring equipment failure) has caused a crash in dissolved oxygen. Add an airstone, or position your filters so that they cause a lot of surface disturbance.
> 
> Being at the surface , along with huffing or rapid breathing, usually indicates a lack of dissolved oxygen (DO) in the water.


Not necessarily. If the fishes' gill have been damaged because of a clorine/chloramine spike or some other problem, that would have the same affect.


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## twoheadedfish (May 10, 2008)

syz said:


> I have not changed the water for a while


sounds a little too sudden to be cruddy water quality, but it's worth checking out. how long is a while? two weeks? four?

Once i let my tank go maybe four weeks without a water change and with a filter that was just barely rated for my tank. there was no slow degradation of the health of my fish. one day they were all happy-crappy, the next they were doing as you described.

i tested the water, pH was ridiculous (>5.0). i did a water change, bringing the pH to 5.5ish. next day i had a whole bunch dead fish. it's just way too much stress.

hopefully that's not what's happened to you. best to rule it out i suppose.


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## twoheadedfish (May 10, 2008)

ameekplec. said:


> I think it may be that you have over treated the tank, and that (barring equipment failure) has caused a crash in dissolved oxygen. Add an airstone, or position your filters so that they cause a lot of surface disturbance.
> 
> Being at the surface , along with huffing or rapid breathing, usually indicates a lack of dissolved oxygen (DO) in the water.
> 
> The gouramis shouldn't mind too much about the low DO (they can breathe air, as can most loaches). The sharks however do not have this gift, so they probably suffocated.


makes sense.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Cory_Dad said:


> Not necessarily. If the fishes' gill have been damaged because of a clorine/chloramine spike or some other problem, that would have the same affect.


I'll have to disagree: if it were chlorine poisoning, all the fish should have died or had some profound effect, as chlorine is an irritant of all mucous membranes, inside and out. It's pretty obvious when you have chlorine poisoning. Paleness, increased mucous production on outside, and redness of the fish all over. Also, it should have affected all the fish, and especially the loaches, as they are particularly susceptible to everything, especially chemicals. Basically, chlorine/chloramine should have taken the loaches out before any other fish, and there was no mention of any chlorine poisioning type reaction.

Seeing as the loaches just surfaced for air, and there was no special mention of the gouramis suffering besides surface breathing more, I'd have to put it to DO. Any time I have had problems with DO, all the creatures (fish, shrimp and snails) have all headed for the surface. Even the plecos, when the DO gets low, will surface for air.

Meds and treatments often consume DO, so it is a good idea to premix as cory_dad does, and aerate and heat conditioned water before WCs. Also increase aeration with an air stone or venturi device whenever adding any medication or treatment. You can also use a tap water filter, which in the long run is much cheaper than treating with prime or anything else. I have used a tap water filter (filters out chemicals and heavy metals) and have never had problems with clean water.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

twoheadedfish said:


> sounds a little too sudden to be cruddy water quality, but it's worth checking out. how long is a while? two weeks? four?
> 
> Once i let my tank go maybe four weeks without a water change and with a filter that was just barely rated for my tank. there was no slow degradation of the health of my fish. one day they were all happy-crappy, the next they were doing as you described.
> 
> ...


The recommended maximum change to pH is .2 As you found out anything beyond that is very stressful to fish.


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## twoheadedfish (May 10, 2008)

ayup. twas my first post here, in fact.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

You need to get testing kits -they take a lot of guess work out of problems like this.

You need a pH, ammonia and nitrite kit at least.

Also, BA's water treatment stuff is crap - use Seachem Prime.


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## Cory_Dad (Apr 18, 2008)

ameekplec. said:


> I'll have to disagree: if it were chlorine poisoning, all the fish should have died or had some profound effect, as chlorine is an irritant of all mucous membranes, inside and out. It's pretty obvious when you have chlorine poisoning. Paleness, increased mucous production on outside, and redness of the fish all over. Also, it should have affected all the fish, and especially the loaches, as they are particularly susceptible to everything, especially chemicals. Basically, chlorine/chloramine should have taken the loaches out before any other fish, and there was no mention of any chlorine poisioning type reaction.
> 
> Seeing as the loaches just surfaced for air, and there was no special mention of the gouramis suffering besides surface breathing more, I'd have to put it to DO. Any time I have had problems with DO, all the creatures (fish, shrimp and snails) have all headed for the surface. Even the plecos, when the DO gets low, will surface for air.
> 
> Meds and treatments often consume DO, so it is a good idea to premix as cory_dad does, and aerate and heat conditioned water before WCs. Also increase aeration with an air stone or venturi device whenever adding any medication or treatment. You can also use a tap water filter, which in the long run is much cheaper than treating with prime or anything else. I have used a tap water filter (filters out chemicals and heavy metals) and have never had problems with clean water.


You have made some very interesting points.

When this happened to me the gills in both of the zebra danios that died were bright red which I attributed to chemical irritation. From what I remember, they appeared to be normal they day before my 40% water change. I eventually removed all my Cories from the tank because they started acting weird plus 2 of the juveniles died. My other fish were fine, even the 2 week old platy fry. As I said previously, no one I spoke with could figure it out but their best guess was 'chemical poisoning'.

It may just be anecdotal evidence so take from this what you will. Possibly/probably my diagnosis was wrong, but I think we both agree on the solution/prevention.

Cheers.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

I usually do my water change 50% regardless of tank size, and I always use untreated water, using Python to pour tap water to fill up the tank, then use water treatment solution.

I've not had problems with this method yet. No lost fish due to chlorine/chloramine poisoning, although I was hesitent on using this method in the beginning.

I don't quite understand use of 3 different bottles to treat the tap water. It sounds excessive. I'd go against using anything other than chlorine/chloramine treatment.

Fishes gasping and coming up to surface definitely sounds like oxygen problem.



Cory_Dad said:


> You have made some very interesting points.
> 
> When this happened to me the gills in both of the zebra danios that died were bright red which I attributed to chemical irritation. From what I remember, they appeared to be normal they day before my 40% water change. I eventually removed all my Cories from the tank because they started acting weird plus 2 of the juveniles died. My other fish were fine, even the 2 week old platy fry. As I said previously, no one I spoke with could figure it out but their best guess was 'chemical poisoning'.
> 
> ...


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## js97 (Jun 11, 2008)

FYI.. there is no chrloramine added to TORONTO CITY WATER... anywhere else... i can't speak for...


and honestly 10% tap water with out treatment should not do anything to tank oxygen levels...

you really don't need to treat the water if you leave it out for 48 hours...

it is most likely overtreating your water...

general rule, chemicals are bad...


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## jewel-stavroula (Jan 11, 2008)

It sounds like because you hadn't done a water change in quite sometime, that drastic changes in parameters took place.. just from adding the 10% or more of tap water.. Usually when a tank hasn't had a water change in a while, it is better to do much smaller water changes (and more frequently).. Say 5% twice a week. Your pH may have shot up from the new tap water being added.. Knowing your parameters is pretty important; pin pointing the cause of death takes stress off of you and prevents the same in the future by enhancing your ability to control the overall health of your tank.


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## Burtess (Jan 17, 2007)

js97 said:


> FYI.. there is no chrloramine added to TORONTO CITY WATER... anywhere else... i can't speak for...


Chloramine is never added to city water, it is created. Ammonia is added after chlorination and reacts with the chlorine to form chloramines.

Toronto tap water does contain chloramines...

See this diagram of the City of Toronto treatment (check out step 7):
http://www.toronto.ca/water/supply/supply_facilities/rcharris/pdf/water_filtration_process.pdf

Burt


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## duffgrot (Jul 4, 2008)

Just a quick note; this post reminded me of a helpful hint. If your fish are experiencing a lack of oxygen, whether due to lack of surface agitation or by being used up by chemicals, a quick way to add oxygen is by adding hydrogen peroxide into the tank and giving it a stir. This is a great thing to keep around in case you have a power failure and you have no surface agitation.


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Fish gasping for air at the surface of the water is an indication of low levels of oxygen or ammonia poisoning. If their gills are flaring at the bottom of the tank and they seem to be gasping it's nitrite poisoning. I'd be curious what the names on those big al's products are. I know blue is dechlor, yellow is bio-support but not sure on what the red bottle is. Could it be raw ammonia which is used for fishless cycles? If so, you may have added a poisonous element into the tank and killed the fish that way. I'd reccomend doing a 20% water change asap and only use the blue bottle when treating the new water. In general dechlor is all you need when changing water, the rest is just a waste. Also, when dechlorinating for water changes you need only dechlorinate the amount youve added, not dose for the entire tank. 

Also, when you did your water change did you do maintenance on your filter? That is to say, did you rinse out the filter media (sponges etc.)? If you did, and you used tap water then you could have killed off all of your beneficial bacteria that breaks down the deadly ammonia and nitrite in your tank. 

Truth be told though, I'm curious what was in that red bottle because I'm thinking that's your culprit.


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

*Bio-Clean*

Good hypothesis re: BA's red bottle. It's Bio-Clean and, according to BA, can cause ammonia spikes.

(This is an old thread, but I'm researching water conditioning and came across this.)



Cory said:


> Fish gasping for air at the surface of the water is an indication of low levels of oxygen or ammonia poisoning. If their gills are flaring at the bottom of the tank and they seem to be gasping it's nitrite poisoning. I'd be curious what the names on those big al's products are. I know blue is dechlor, yellow is bio-support but not sure on what the red bottle is. Could it be raw ammonia which is used for fishless cycles? If so, you may have added a poisonous element into the tank and killed the fish that way. I'd reccomend doing a 20% water change asap and only use the blue bottle when treating the new water. In general dechlor is all you need when changing water, the rest is just a waste. Also, when dechlorinating for water changes you need only dechlorinate the amount youve added, not dose for the entire tank.
> 
> Also, when you did your water change did you do maintenance on your filter? That is to say, did you rinse out the filter media (sponges etc.)? If you did, and you used tap water then you could have killed off all of your beneficial bacteria that breaks down the deadly ammonia and nitrite in your tank.
> 
> Truth be told though, I'm curious what was in that red bottle because I'm thinking that's your culprit.


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