# How do you Soften up Water?



## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

How do you Soften up Water? My water is pretty hard and I want to attempt to breed some SA dwarf cichlids for fun! Any tips will be helpful. thanks


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## ksimdjembe (Nov 11, 2006)

you can purchase water softners at the LFS, but it means re-charing them with salt every so often. I have one that I tried in my AC filter, but I dont really like it. you can just have it if you want. 
I am out in whitby though, so i doubt its worth the drive out.

edit: I'll have to look at it/ find it, as it may be not so good....


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## oshiet (Oct 23, 2009)

Driftwood or Reverse Osmosis will do the job.


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## Sunny (Aug 26, 2009)

CO2 works great, my water is solid rock with a KH of 13 and a ph of 8+ but the CO2 injection brings it down to a ph of 6.8


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Get yourself a used RO machine - you can usually find one on pricenetwork or AP for about $100, and it'll give you mroe consistent results than driftwood or peat. Although the latter methods can be cheaper.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

If you are using a water softener, be aware that there are some that exchange the magnesium and calcium cations with sodium, which is undesirable. 

You will want to use potassium chloride as the salt in place of the sodium chloride that is commonly used.


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

but if you use a reverse osmosis system, you would have to eventually replace the filter cartridges as well?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

yes you would eventually, but not for a long time, unless you're making 50 gallons a day...


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

People often think that Toronto (Lake Ontario) water is hard, but it isn't, really. It's just not particularly soft.

Most apistos will live and grow and breed well in Toronto tap water. Only some of the black water species have problems, and that mostly when eggs are hatching, since calcium ions may toughen the egg membrane in some fish adapted to really soft water. Many apistos come from 'white water' or 'clear water' streams that aren't all that different from what comes out of the tap here. A.borelli and A.cacatuoides are examples. Laetacara dorsigera and L.curviceps do fine in tap water too -- I've bred both of them here.

Even for very soft water species, clean water can be more important than soft or acidic water. There's someone on this forum who has Dicrossus filamentosus breed for him regularly in very clean tap water. According to the books, these fish shouldn't even be able to survive, let alone flourish and breed successfully in our water!

One advantage of not messing with water chemistry is that it's so much easier to do water changes, that you can easily do a lot of them. Soft water is also liable to vary dramatically in pH, since it isn't well buffered, which is much worse for fish than being in water that is stable but different from what they experience in nature. And the water fish live in in nature isn't necessarily the best for them, either. They may be living in it because their predators and competitors can't.

Note that lowering pH is not the same as softening water. It's entirely possible to have hard, acid water. West African waters are often neutral to alkaline, but very soft.

Anyhow, my advice is that if you want to try breeding SA dwarf cichlids, get locally raised ones if you can find them, and start with species that are known to be easy and have been in captivity for many generations before you branch out into the more delicate ones. Don't worry about water hardness, just keep it clean, and provide lots of cover and plants for these fish. In nature they have a lot of predators, so they get stressed if they don't have hiding places to make them feel more secure. Avoid snails and catfish in the aquarium as they will eat eggs and stress the parents by moving around at night. I like to leave a very dim light on in the room when the fish are tending eggs or wrigglers to make them feel more secure and keep them on track. A nightlight next to the tank will do.


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## DaFishMan (Dec 19, 2006)

What you'd need would vary by your intent, what you feel comfortable investing, which strain of apistos you want to breed, and if they're domestic or wild-caught. 

If you're breeding for the first time to learn try the cheaper method, go full tilt later if you need to. Some people here don't even alter their water (Bae for example). 

Some peat in your filter would be plenty sufficient for your common domestic bred apistos. Driftwood alone would be a poor method, use it to add territories/hiding spots.

co2 lowers ph but does not soften the water.
RO units waste an incredible amount of water.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

If you are thinking of softening the water for breeding of SW cichlids, its nor necessary. 

Rams breed readily in tap water. 

Apistos also breed very easily in tap water.

If you do decide to get RO...get a meter for it too..so you can measure the hardness of the water constantly.


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

bae said:


> People often think that Toronto (Lake Ontario) water is hard, but it isn't, really. It's just not particularly soft..


thanks, that was pretty helpful

but i also want to soften my water because I was reading up on how hard water can be bad for plants? and I also read up on how our municipalities will use *hydrated lime* to balance the water out...


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Tap water is fine for 90% of the plants people will try to keep.

Although, I'm suspecting it's the reason I'm unable to keep mermaidweed (Proserpinaca palustris) ever.


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

yea i thought so, because for my 75 gal the plants are fine, but my 25 gal shrimpie tank with plants, they are turning all brown and dying!!!

and i was told SA cichlids need plants to feel natural and do the deed


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

the 25gal might be another issue  

Highly sensitive plants might not take to tap water, but most others will be fine. Proserpinaca is a sensitive one - I've bought it three (or four?) times from different shops over the course of a year and a half and all have died in a few days (less than a week) - I talked with Harold at menagerie, and apparently they don't have much sucess with it either.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Byronicle said:


> yea i thought so, because for my 75 gal the plants are fine, but my 25 gal shrimpie tank with plants, they are turning all brown and dying!!!
> 
> and i was told SA cichlids need plants to feel natural and do the deed


There's an old gardener's proverb that it's easier to grow the plants that like your conditions than modifying the conditions to grow the plants that don't.

What kinds of plants are doing badly in the shrimp tank? Some plants lose their leaves when conditions change dramatically and then grow new ones that suit the new conditions. This usually happens with plants that have been grown emersed and you immerse them, as well as the notorious 'crypt melt'. Is this tank recently planted? Where did the plants come from? Did you make a big change in lighting?


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

bae said:


> There's an old gardener's proverb that it's easier to grow the plants that like your conditions than modifying the conditions to grow the plants that don't.
> 
> What kinds of plants are doing badly in the shrimp tank? Some plants lose their leaves when conditions change dramatically and then grow new ones that suit the new conditions. This usually happens with plants that have been grown emersed and you immerse them, as well as the notorious 'crypt melt'. Is this tank recently planted? Where did the plants come from? Did you make a big change in lighting?


well I had this tank running for about 20 days and I had my shrimp tank with some HC cuba growing emmersed, then once I filled it up I added some Star Grass, Ludwiga arcuata and java fern. In the 25 gallon I have 4x14watts = total 56 watts, a bit over 2 watts/gallon. I also add Seachem Flourish fertilizer once a week. My plants came from my 75 gallon, just clippings and extras, they are doing awesome in that tank but poorly in the 25 gallon.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I have all the same problems and am considering all the same things. I am going to start by using RO water in my water changes to bring down the pH naturally, without increasing total osmotic stress.

The CO2 trick sounds nice if you can afford a CO2 system.

Crypts melt on me, Cambomba goes caboom. The only things that grow for me are Anubias, Hornwort, and Java Fern.

W


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I have all the same problems and am considering all the same things. I am going to start by using RO water in my water changes to bring down the pH naturally, without increasing total osmotic stress.


RO water will lower the osmotic pressure. It may not reduce pH significantly if mixed with tap water. Soft water can be very unstable in pH. If you are going to switch over to all RO water, do it gradually, or you can injure your fish's gills.



> Crypts melt on me, Cambomba goes caboom. The only things that grow for me are Anubias, Hornwort, and Java Fern.


Crypts tend to melt when the are moved to different water or light conditions. Other plants do, but to a lesser extent. Cabomba isn't easy to grow IME. Since plants with low light requirements do well for you, possibly you don't have enough light for others. Note that a lot of people here have good plant growth in Toronto tap water.

Try vallisnerias. They've always done well for me in Toronto water under low light conditions. Naias grows like a weed, but it's not exactly a Dutch aquarium plant. Most people can grow Hygrophila polysperma, if you want a stem plant.


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## rbyn (Jan 13, 2010)

Another way to soften water is to use peatmoss (not the soil type) in a net or cloth bag and dip it in the water you want to condition. If you don't mind a slight tannish (could be darker - depending on peat moss) color of your water. I find its a good, cheap method to soften and acidify water.  

Just a tip though, for those who don't want their water to be dark brown, try to chose a bag of dried peat moss that is lighter in color. I use 'blond' peru peat moss you can get from orchid supply stores or vendors. 

R.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Do you know a toronto source for that blond peat moss?


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## patience (Jan 19, 2010)

Hi,
Many places that sell pet supplies or fish supplies (or both) sell water softener.
It will have directions on the side to tell you how much and how to put in your tank.
Doing anything else would not help, other then chemicals. A water change would just introduce more hard water and there is basically no other way.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

peat moss wont soften the water, it would just release a lot of tannins and thus decrease the pH of the water. I think they can be obtained from garden centers...which might be out of season.

as for water softeners, they are pretty useless really. They just replace one mineral with another. Which in the greater scheme of things, makes no diff. 

The only way to really soften the water is to use RO water, distilled water, de-mineralized water..which I think is RO water..lol.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Peat will soften water somewhat, acting like a cationic DI resin, replacing Ca++ and Mg++ with H+.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

The Big Als in scarboro has a clearance section and they have a 5 kg bucket of some kind of chemical that reacts with hard water (like our toronto tapwater) and creates a south american acidic biotope. I think that such a reaction could be a nice way to get your results, if you don't do it in your tank, but rather in buckets only. Or at least do one bucket of water to this stuff, and then do your water change, and mix the results slowly in while filling up from one's python. I would think a powder like this dropped into your tank would just about kill anything it came near, and and any time there's too much of it in one place, you'd burn and kill your fish.

W


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## chrisssteeven (Feb 11, 2010)

Hi,
The reason water gets hard is due to the type of earth it has to filter through. In some areas the water picks up particles from the rocks (usually chalk), hence making it hard. To soften it the water has to be filtered to take the particles out.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

chrisssteeven said:


> Hi,
> The reason water gets hard is due to the type of earth it has to filter through. In some areas the water picks up particles from the rocks (usually chalk), hence making it hard. To soften it the water has to be filtered to take the particles out.


Um, not quite. What it picks up is atom-sized particles -- it dissolves ions out of the rock. Such 'particles' can only be removed by reverse osmosis, distillation or ion exchange resins (deionizers -- DI).

The stuff at Big Al's is probably an ion exchange resin. The ones sold in bulk like that are usually the kind that exchange sodium for calcium and magnesium and are recharged with salt. This will make your water soft but rather high in sodium and chloride, which is generally worse for soft water fish than Toronto tap water, which isn't all that hard.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

If toronto tap water "isn't all that hard" how come my pH never drops below 7.9 when I mix 90% RO water with 10% tap water. It looks to me like Toronto tap water is more than 150% of the top-of-the-scale reading for GH/KH test kits. That's HARD. Or else (and this is also possible), my GH/KH and pH test kits are CRAP at telling me the truth. 

W


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

From http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

0 - 4 dH, 0 - 70 ppm : very soft
4 - 8 dH, 70 - 140 ppm : soft
8 - 12 dH, 140 - 210 ppm : medium hard 
12 - 18 dH, 210 - 320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard

I may not be in Toronto...but I'm pretty sure the water in Brampton comes from the same lake.  I've never seen anything above 8 dGH (maybe not even 7) from my taps...which is soft according to the Krib, Wikipedia and any place else I checked.

PH and hardness are not directly linked, as bae mentioned in a previous post in this thread.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> If toronto tap water "isn't all that hard" how come my pH never drops below 7.9 when I mix 90% RO water with 10% tap water. It looks to me like Toronto tap water is more than 150% of the top-of-the-scale reading for GH/KH test kits. That's HARD. Or else (and this is also possible), my GH/KH and pH test kits are CRAP at telling me the truth.
> 
> W


pH and hardness are two different things. Hard water can be acidic and soft water can have a high pH. Your kits may be defective, or you may not be using them correctly. Try testing straight RO water and straight tap water that have been kept in an open container for a day. The RO water should test lower in hardness than the tap water. How low the RO water reads in hardness will depend on how the RO equipment is set up and whether the membrane needs replacing.

This post summarizes Toronto tap water parameters and gives a link to a more detailed analysis: http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10558


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