# Are these really beginner plants?



## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hello Everyone,

I saw an ad on ebay of a guy selling some foreground plants that he claims are beginner plants that require no C02,no ferts but 12h lighting. I looked some of them up, but they didn't seem like they were easy plants. It seems like a pretty good deal for ~30 CAD. Can I really get away with no ferts/CO2 and led lighting that is rated 28PAR at 18 inches? I currently run my light for 6-7 hours and get some algae in the background, if I run it for 12 hours it will grow even quicker. My nitrates tend to be in ~40ppm mark so I'm guessing it could be that there aren't enough plants to compete for nutrients. I'm currently growing java fern, anubias and java moss at an ok rate, but leaves tend to show deficiencies and turn dark and rough.Anyways here is the list of plants offered. Tell me what you think

1. Eleocharis parvula - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm
2. Glossostigma elatinoides - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm
3. Lilaeopsis novae - zelandiae - 15 stems ( one clump } hight 1-3 cm
4. Sagittaria subulata - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm
5. Micranthemum micranthemoides - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm
6. Isoetes sp. - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm
7. Eleocharis acicularis - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm
8. Echinodorus tenellus - 15 stems ( one clump ) hight 1-3 cm

Thanks


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

It's been a while since I was on this forum but nothing requires co2 per say, but 12 hours of lighting is a lot, you will probably grow the plants with algae depending on how powerful your lights are of course. As you said your getting algae @ 7 hours imagine how green your water will be after 12 hours. Lets put it this way I did test years ago with HC cuba with no co2, I planted maybe 1cmx1cm worth of HC cuba. I looked at it again in lets say 4-6 months later and it was 2cmx2cm lol I know that if I introduce co2 that 1cmx1cm after 4-6 months will probably be 1feetx1feet if not more.


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## Professor Monkey (Jan 8, 2015)

*Planted Tanks*

I too am in the process of researching and preparing a planted tank.

In years past I had a 55 gal that was initially unplanted, but I got bored with the plastic plants so I tried planting. 
My initial 40W or so provided next to no growth so I upgraded to 2x T5 bulbs. Growth improved at first but then I started seeing signs of nutrient deficiencies. I started dosing which improved growth but started algae. Before I got any serious blooms I made a DIY CO2 system. This prevented the algae, but again I saw nutrient deficiencies. 
My next step was adding a layer of red Flourite substrate on top of my inert gravel. This created a mess (even though I washed the Flourite thoroughly) and I got a serious bacterial bloom. Thankfully I have a diatom filter and powdered charcoal otherwise all of my fish would have been dead.
Once the Flourite stabilized, the growth with minor dosing, DIY CO2, and the T5 lighting was excellent. I had only 2 remaining problems: faster growing species needed at LEAST weekly trimmings and every time I pulled a plant from the substrate (even ones with minimal roots) I would have to run my diatom filter and do a water change to prevent algal or bacterial blooms.

I am now getting a 220gal going and again screwed up the initial setup. I initially was going to put big fish in it so I went with inert gravel and low lighting (20 PAR at substrate). There were only going to be some low light plants like java fern and annubias on some driftwood. I don't like the tank without plants so I added some in hopes of getting at least a bit of growth.
I put some low light species like crypts and Vals into the tank and also have some chain (pygmy) sword. Initial growth from the chain sword was fantastic (lots of runners), but it has now stopped due to lack of nutrients in the soil. Most likely iron. My Vals are growing, but their colour isn't the nice deep green they should be. One crypt is growing slowly, the other is basically unchanged after a month. I again added DIY CO2 and slight nutrient dosing. My java fern started good growth within a day and my annubias has grown some nice roots and started a shoot. Unfortunately the chain sword is still unresponsive (no nutrients in the soil).

After weeks of research (included Diana Walstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium) my plan is to double up my lighting to 40 PAR and install a 1" dirt substrate capped with ~1" of my inert gravel. I am going to plant heavily with low to medium light species. I'll likely run some DIY CO2 to grow everything in and to soak up extra nutrients while the dirt stabilizes. My LED lighting allows my to adjust colours and brightness to an extent so along with controlling the photoperiod I should be able to come to a nice slow growing balance without algae.

My advice to you is to ensure that you have a good substrate, otherwise you'll be limited by what you can grow and will constantly have to dose nutrients and use root tabs. Dosing will likely need constant adjustment to prevent algae and ensure healthy plants. This will also likely get tedious and take the fun out of the hobby.
Your 28 PAR sounds perfect for a nice low tech and low maintenance tank. With a proper substrate you should be able to grow all low light and propably most medium light plants (as long as they are positioned to get good access to the light.

I highly recommend Walstad's book; she compiles hundreds of scientific papers and experiments to give you a clearer picture of the relationship between substrate, plants, fish, bacteria, algae, light, nutrients, etc. As a science teacher I found the scientific detail interesting and insightful, but I also appreciated that she summarized everything with a very practical approach so that nearly all can understand the main points and apply them to their own aquariums.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Well it seems like I'm stuck in a bit of a paradox.Some people say that a plant may show deficiencies if it's not getting enough light for photosynthesis. I think 6-7 hours is probably good but maybe not. Now here's the paradox.Since a plant is not getting enough light it doesn't have the hunger for nutrients so it uses less. On the other hand if I want to fix these deficiencies I would have to add more nutrients(fertilizer) which stimulate algae growth, but my nitrates would still be high which means that there was already enough plant food available in the first place. Something is clearly wrong when I have 40ppm of nitrates constantly. I don't know how to balance this out. It just maybe that my java moss, java fern and anubias don't suck up a lot of nutrients but are rather picky and require other macros and micros in the water column. My substrate is just regular gravel, but I've seen many youtube videos of ppl growing perfectly healthy plants in regular substrate. It would be almost impossible for me to add dirt considering all the fish I have to transfer.


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## Professor Monkey (Jan 8, 2015)

6-7 hours is on the low side, but still ok for the likes of Java fern and annubias if all else is good.

40 ppm of nitrate is very high. If you have fish it is imperative that you keep oxygenation as high as possible. If it drops too low bacteria can convert the nitrate to nitrite and/or ammonium which would kill your fish.

I highly recommend doing some careful water changes over the next couple of days. Try not to disturb any gravel or do anything to throw the system out of whack.

As for getting your plants growing...

Nitrogen isn't you limiting factor for growth. Unless the soil is devoid of macro and micro nutrients it is usually carbon or light that limits growth. 

Plants are able to store significant amounts of micronutrients - it is one of the few advantages they have over algae - dosing micro nutrients will likely only help algae.
Fish food contains all of the nutrients that plants need to grow. The problem is that they need to be converted by fish and bacteria into forms that plants can use. That is where the substrate comes in. Ideally the conversion of nutrients occurs down where they can be absorbed by roots, and not where the algae can get them (Water column).
Good substrates like dirt, flourite, eco-complete, etc. attract the minerals and make them available to plants. Typical inert aquarium gravel does not possess this ability.

If you can't change your substrate your best course of action is to:
1) insert root tabs to fertilize the plants 
2) stop vacuuming the gravel. Yes, you read that right. The brown left over food and fish poop are loaded with nutrients that are, for the most part, not yet available to plants. In a few months the particles will settle down into the gravel and be decomposed by bacteria into "mulm". In this form the nutrients will become available to the plants and the mulm will also attract new nutrients from the water column and store them for later use. The mulm becomes "soil" - nutrient loaded organic molecules and bacteria.

I'd also advise adjusting your photoperiod. Your plants have the advantage in acquiring and using nutrients when CO2 is higher. Without CO2 injection water will typically have at most 5 ppm of CO2. When you turn the lights on the plants (and algae) start using it up. Within 6 hours it is nearly all gone (for a well planted tank).
Try using Walstad's siesta method of 4-5 hours on, 4 hours off, then 4-5 hours on again. During the 4 hours off the CO2 will slow rise back to 5 ppm and the plants will get a fresh start with max CO2 in the evening. This also let's you view and fish in the morning and all evening while saving you money (if you would otherwise leave them on all day) and reducing the likelihood of growing algae.

One more tip is to get some fast growing plants to get the nitrate down. Floating plants work really well, but I am also having great success with cabomba. It grows like a weed and will soak up some of that nitrate.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

I did a wc last saturday, took measurements today and the nitrate is at 40ppm and ammonia at 0.25pp,. About a month ago I started doing 30% weekly wc, but still no help. I'm running two eheim canisters. One is an eheim pro 2 and the other one is an eheim 2213 that I got from a friend. I set them up on each end of the tank with one intake being directly under the return of the other one.Surface agitation is ok but I'm not sure about further down the water column. Why should I worry about having rich in nutrients substrate when java fern and anubias feed through the water column. I know root feeders like amazon swords and sags need nutrients in the substrate, but why do java fern and anubias need it when they don't have any contact with it. If you say that fish food/waste ( eventually nitrates) is enough to produce all plants need. How come there's an excess of nitrates in my system, but plants are showing deficiencies.I'm definetly not overfeeding because no food reaches the bottom of the tank. The substrate is covered with my pleco's 5" long poop so I'm really tempted to get rid of it but I will let stay there during tomorrow's 30% wc. I will also adjust my timer. to 4 and 4. Would it be ok if I have more than a 4-hour gap in between? I'm trying to get my hands on some water lettuce or frogbit, but first I can't find anyone that sells it around here, and second I'm afraid it will decrease my light even further by casting a shade.

Thanks


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## Professor Monkey (Jan 8, 2015)

mitko1994 said:


> Surface agitation is ok but I'm not sure about further down the water column.


Your good surface agitation means bacteria have enough oxygen to ensure the Nitrogen compounds are fully oxidized as nitrate (NO3)



mitko1994 said:


> Why should I worry about having rich in nutrients substrate when java fern and anubias feed through the water column. I know root feeders like amazon swords and sags need nutrients in the substrate, but why do java fern and anubias need it when they don't have any contact with it.


Some micro nutrients can only be made available by bacteria which thrive in anaerobic conditions in the substrate. This was one of the surprises for me while reading Walstad's book. I, like most people, thought that keeping everything as oxygenated as possible was important. Plants actually benefit from some anaerobic processes in the soil. Many nutrients in their raw form are unusable to plants; they first need to be chelated (attached to something). Organic substances - specifically hummic substances - act as chelators and then dissolve into the water column. Some fertilizers use a synthetic chelator like EDTA to make their nutrients available.



mitko1994 said:


> If you say that fish food/waste ( eventually nitrates) is enough to produce all plants need. How come there's an excess of nitrates in my system, but plants are showing deficiencies.


The other nutrients are there, but most aren't chelated and available to the plants. Nitrogen in the fish food is very quickly converted to nitrate. It's building up because it isn't being used by the plants. If they are in fact nutrient deficient that nutrient is something other than nitrogen. Iron is a commonly deficient nutrient, especially with inert gravel.

It is possible that your deficiency is light or CO2 rather than nutrients. My java fern was totally idle until I injected a bit of DIY CO2.



mitko1994 said:


> my pleco's 5" long poop so I'm really tempted to get rid of it but I will let stay there during tomorrow's 30% wc.


Going the mulm route will be very slow going, hence why I am stripping down my tank to do a proper dirted substrate.

As I mentioned, in the past I added a layer of Flourite to existing gravel with good success. If you want to go the planted tank route I highly recommend increase both the number of species and the plant biomass in the tank. Remember that you are trying to create a balance between the nutrients entering the tank and those that are absorbed by the plants. Keep in mind that the nutrient requires per gram of fish are much higher than that for plants; it takes a large plant biomass and good growth to absorb all of the nutrients that fish use/excrete. Also, plants produce allelochemicals which inhibit algal growth (and some times other plant growth). The more plants and the greater the variety (typically) the more algae are inhibited. When you get algae it is because there is excess nutrients and light that the plants aren't using, and poor plant growth is a deficiency of nutrients or light. You will always have SOME algae in your tank.



mitko1994 said:


> Would it be ok if I have more than a 4-hour gap in between?


Yes that is fine. It is more important to ensure the plants get a long enough photoperiod. It can take some time for them to ramp up their photosynthetic reactions and cutting the light too soon can prevent them from acquiring sufficient energy. For right now try the siesta method and have a total of 8 hours of light (4 + 4). If algae doesn't create too much of an issue after a few days try 5 + 4. Try to find the threshold for algal growth. I am currently running 5 + 6, but I have 220gal with very light fish load and more plants that are growing.

Another option open to you is dosing your tank with Seachem's Excel. It's a carbohydrate that plants can absorb and use instead of CO2. It also kills some types of algae. Down side is that it can kill some plants (java fern and annubias are safe) and cost $.



mitko1994 said:


> I'm afraid it will decrease my light even further by casting a shade.


Java fern and annubias are by nature shade plants, but if you are worried about them it should be possible to prevent the floaters from being directly overhead.

I am getting some frogbit (and a boat load of other plants) from jimmyjam tomorrow. He is in Markham and is, by the looks of it, a fairly big supplier to hobbyists in the area.

I also have some cabomba and java fern that you can have, but it's a bit of a drive for you to come out to Brooklin.

If you get some root tabs then an amazon sword would be good too. So long as you can get iron to their roots (hence root tabs) they will grow like crazy and help bring your nitrates down.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

I believe I have phosphate and potassium deficiencies. At the bottom of this threadare some of the plants I had bought before that pretty much died because of deficiencies. The deficiencies are visible in the pics,at the time I though it was due to insufficient lighting but that might not be the case. I don't know the name of these plants but I bought them as beginner plants and was told they didn't need any extra care, but it turned out they were lacking nutrients.The current situation with my anubias and java fern is similar except java fern leaf tips would occasionally turn dark green(probably lack of phosphate) and their leaves would get rough black patches and sometimes even some holes as seen here. Whitby is indeed a bit too far for me. I go to school at UTSC but that's as close I get lol. I will start Walstad's method tomorrow after I do the water change. I don't have massive algae blooms or anything. I have a few speckles at back of the tank that will get bigger with time, but If you are standing a foot away from the tank you wont be able to see them. Nonetheless, I hate seeing any algae on the glass and try to scrub it off asap.I'm assuming that in perfectly balanced tanks algae is not visible, or at least that's how it looks on pics and vids. One other thing I thought of is the fact that the tank is facing a window. The window is facing west and most importantly my neighbor's house which is literally 6ft away from mine, so I don't think much light gets in anyways, especially in the winter. It looks like I will eventually have to buy dry ferts and start dosing to get healthy leaves, but before I do that, I want to take care of my high nitrates so I don't have to worry about overdosing with nitrates or having to adjust the mixture because of that. As for root tabs, do they sell them in bulk because the ones that are sold by seachem and api seem to be ridiculously overpriced.I guess I have to keep looking for nitrate-absorbing plants.

Thanks


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## Professor Monkey (Jan 8, 2015)

Oh yeah definitely nutrient deficiency!

I think you are spot on with it being phosphate too.

These homemade osmocote root tabs seem very popular with hobbyists. You could even make your own if you can get gel capsules.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/100-Osmocote...100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f3eea264

All tanks get algae, even the showcase ones that win awards. Although the amount they get is typically very little due to CO2, very frequent water changes, and balanced dosing, they do things like spray hydrogen peroxide on affected sites to keep algae from getting a foot hold.


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## balutpenoy2oy (Feb 17, 2011)

GREAT topic.

Sorry to hijack this . How about the temperature, do it affect plant growth ? I am kind of wondering because my java fern in my discus planted tank at 38-39 C temp is way too slow in growing though, whereas in my cold tank (no heater) it grows faster . Both my tank has the same photoperiod of 6 hrs.
------ My cold tank 120g x 5ft has 2 x T8 light x 48" (6000K range), seated by the rim, with 8 tetra fishes, same feeding regimen with the other tank, no fertilizer no root tab, no liquid CO2, NO WATER change. 
------ My discus tank 75g x 4ft has 2 x T5 ( 5000K & 7000K range ) HO, 2ft from rim as two month ago (before 6" from rim), with 4 discus, 20+ tetras fishes, 4 angelfish all at mature stage, occasional dry fert with diy root tab , liquid CO2 for the past 4 weeks , water change every week.


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## balutpenoy2oy (Feb 17, 2011)

Truly ,*dirt *is the apex of all substrate, I did experienced it. Only trouble is when it run out of nutrient even though you will add some of root tab you will missed the growth that was given by_* dirt *_and it was really messy when uprooting older plants to be replaced. CO2 is really a limiting factor for planted tank and light of right spectra. IMO


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

I might go to BAs sometime this weekend and pick up some nutrient hog plants(if I get my parents' financial blessing lol). The only problem I have is that the guys there don't know any of their plants and I'm not an expert at identifying them myself. Nonetheless, I want to get something that will not die on me because it needs other nutrients. Something that will live perfectly fine with what it already has in the tank, without the need of any ferts/tabs etc. All I need these plants to do is eat nitrates and spread, I'm not asking for much right? Lol, anyways ppl have recommended pennywort,water sprite, hornwort, wisteria,and cabomba. I tried cabomba in the past but it gets really messy if fish decide it's fun to rip it apart. I guess the fish assault is another factor to consider, so something that tastes similar to java fern and anubias that my fish will not eat would also be good lol.

Thanks

EDIT: here are some pics of the algae and a vid of how much direct sunlight the tank gets. It was about noon when I shot this. Excuse my horrible camera work.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

algae pics


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## balutpenoy2oy (Feb 17, 2011)

Looks like it is green spot aglae..

Check this out, hope this will help;
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...r4TYAg&usg=AFQjCNFGRVuzKA9T2bEx3341svys4synWw


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## Professor Monkey (Jan 8, 2015)

balutpenoy2oy said:


> How about the temperature, do it affect plant growth ? I am kind of wondering because my java fern in my discus planted tank at 38-39 C temp is way too slow in growing though, whereas in my cold tank (no heater) it grows faster


Temperature definitely plays a role. Java fern definitely likes a little bit cooler temps. I have found mid 70's to be ideal, but is doing fine in my cold water tank. I have never had a tank over 80F so I can't say from experience what that does to java fern but I suspect it probably doesn't like that much heat.

Also, what is the hardness of your discuss tank? I know discuss prefer softer water and nearly all plants grow better in hard water. Even plants that originated in soft water will grow better in harder water. If you are using RO water to soften the discuss tank that would be a contributer as well.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

balutpenoy2oy said:


> Looks like it is green spot aglae..
> 
> Check this out, hope this will help;
> https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...r4TYAg&usg=AFQjCNFGRVuzKA9T2bEx3341svys4synWw


Sounds, like phosphate is something I have to dose. Looks like I need to start dosing dry ferts to stabilize my plants. I'm thinking PPS since it's less demanding.


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## balutpenoy2oy (Feb 17, 2011)

parameter of my water is unknown and both tank water come from our Scarborough tap. I have it (JF) grown in this hot tank when it was also cold with CO2 and high light and it did really multiply faster. Thanks for your reply.


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## Professor Monkey (Jan 8, 2015)

balutpenoy2oy said:


> Truly ,*dirt *is the apex of all substrate, I did experienced it. Only trouble is when it run out of nutrient even though you will add some of root tab you will missed the growth.


There should still be plenty of most mineral nutrients in the soil for many years and the soil should retain its high CEC. The main reason why so is so good (and then eventually not as good) is due to the organic Carbon stored in it. As bacteria decompose the organic matter they release CO2 which fertilizes the plants and gives you better growth than something like flourite. After a few years - depending on the original soil composition - that carbon source gets used up and your dirt is now very similar to flourite in terms of its chemical properties.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Temperature is definitely a factor. There are only a few plants that tolerate the high temps of a discus tank.


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## hendy8888 (Sep 10, 2010)

It can be done. 84F I found the plants took time to adapt to the higher temperature.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

hendy8888 said:


> It can be done. 84F I found the plants took time to adapt to the higher temperature.


Your tank is absolutely amazing. I wish it could be achieved without CO2 lol


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## balutpenoy2oy (Feb 17, 2011)

amazing tank, so what are the tricks ?


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## hendy8888 (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks, no tricks. I use co2, high light for a short burst and diy ferts. Lots of time spent trimming and cleaning. I've had my problem plants and my algae problems. But you keep on top of things as best you can. I had my best results once I got a t5ho light. My metal halides had good shimmer but uneven lighting and raised my tank temperature too much in the summer. I love the colours you can get with a multi tube t5ho light.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

After doing some research and watching some vids I figured I had BBA. I bought some hydrogen peroxide today and I'm planning to take out anubias driftwood and spray the plant out of the tank just to be sure I wont harm any fish. It will be my first time doing this do you have any ideas of how many times and I need to spray each leaf/area and how long do I have to let it sit before rinsing it and putting it back

Thanks


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## FlyingHellFish (Mar 7, 2011)

Hendy!You should really post your tank in a thread over at tpt, some guy claims you can't get enough Co2 when the water is past 75F.

Remember to add that you won a contest with that tank and it's at 84F.

To the OP:

Glosso is an easy carpet plant, much easier than HC Cuba.








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Rotala Round-colour-red-etc etc 









Both plants brought locally here, I think from coldmantis ego ago.


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