# Anybody keep local FW fish?



## dekstr

GTA is home to the Great Lakes and many inland FW sites.

I was wondering if anybody keeps local fish in their aquarium?

I mean most LFS sell tropical fish, but not local fish. Does anybody know why?

Some small fish I've found that might be possible candidates for aquariums?

Blackstripe topminnow

Orangespotted sunfish

Rainbow darter, Etheostoma caeruleum

Blackside darter, Percina maculata

Least darter

Banded killifish


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## Ciddian

i think it has to do with legal issues...


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## Brian

What would be awesome is keeping local amphibians like the newts and salamanders but I am clueless as to how to find them 

As a child I always went around trying to look for them but to no avail.


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## Westender

I've kept a few on your list and am thinking about setting up a large tank for them in the future. From what I recall:

Fundulus diaphanus (banded killifish) are a very active schooler and can be quite aggressive in smaller tanks, so you need to be careful - they do best in large schools and larger tanks.

Darters generally need decent flow / oxygenation as they're primarily found in rivers. The colour up incredibly in the spring.

There are many sunfishes that can be found in the GTA and I've housed them similarly to mid sized south american cichlids. 

A favourite of mine is the mudminnow Umbra lima. They need live food though and are territorial predators (distantly related to the pikes).

To my knowledge, it is legal to catch and possess many of these non-gamefish as long as you are in possession of a valid fishing license - here's the basics from the Ministry of Natural Resources:

(It Is Illegal to) 
• Fish for or possess the following specially protected fish species; American eel, cutlip minnow and redside dace or any extirpated,
endangered or threatened fish species under the Species at
Risk Act .
• Possess any of the following live invasive species: rudd, ruffe, bighead carp, black carp, grass carp, silver carp, round goby, tubenose goby or any member of the snakehead family.

Only resident anglers may capture baitfish, using the methods outlined
below.
• One baitfish trap no more than 51 cm (20 in.) long and 31 cm (12.2 in.) wide can be used day or night. Bait-fish traps must be clearly marked with the name of the user.
• One dip-net no more than 183 cm (6 ft.) on each side if square, or 183 cm (6 ft.) across if circular, during daylight hours only (after sunrise and before sunset).
• Dip-nets and baitfish traps may not be used in Algonquin Park

Only the fish species listed below may be used as live bait:

Minnows
Blacknose shinerBlackchin shiner
Bluntnose minnow
Brassy minnow
Central stoneroller
Common shiner
Creek chub
Eastern blacknose dace
Emerald shiner
Fallfish
Fathead minnow
Finescale dace
Golden shiner
Hornyhead chub
Lake chub
Longnose dace
Mimic shiner
Northern redbelly dace
Pearl dace
Redfin shiner
River chub
Rosyface shiner
Sand shiner
Spotfin shiner
Spottail shiner
Striped shiner
Suckers
White sucker
Longnose sucker
Others
Central mudminnow
Lake herring (cisco)
Trout-Perch
Sticklebacks
Brook stickleback
Ninespine stickleback
Sculpins
Mottled sculpin
Slimy sculpin
Darters and Logperch
Blackside darter
Fantail darter
Iowa darter
Johnny darter
Least darter
Rainbow darter
River darter
Tessellated darter

NOTE: The capture and use of bait is not allowed in some waters
(see other Zone Regulations in the 2008 Ontario Fishing Regulations or Exceptions for the Zone you are fishing in).

I'd assume that you may be able to possess these without a license if you can prove they were raised captively.

Dominic


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## MacFish

If it is legal to catch and keep local fish be responsible about it. I definitely know it is illegal to release any fish kept in aquariums regardless of if they are native or not. Doing so could introduce parasites or diseases picked up while in your aquarium. 

I've always wanted to do a local tank with Smallmouth Bass, Sunfish or even Northern Pikes if my tank was large enough.


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## PPulcher

I haven't kept them, but I used to catch rainbow darters all the time when fishing for brown trout on the Grand river. The first time I caught one, I could not believe my eyes. I thought it was one of those Mandarin fish! Very colorful.


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## Ciddian

i wanted to set up an outdoor tank at my grans cottage for a day or two of viewing but i was always so parinoid of the racoons and she wont let me bring it indoors lol.

i have collected plants before, but very few... I love the live things that come on them

yea brian i agree... I once found a blue spotted salamander, watched it for a while and put it back. The fact that you rarely see them makes me happy that i didnt take it when i was younger.

I am forever getting people in at work... "yes i caught this *insert name here.* how do i take care of it?" LoL


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## Westender

I have to admit I'm insanely curious about the illegal introductions swimming in our waters (and I'm not talking about carp...).

I agree with MacFish - if you do this, you need to be very conscientious.


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## JamesG

I do keep some 'local' critter species in one of my tanks. It has both crayfish and some black stripped minnows collected way up north in there. I would never release them down here although they are all quite common everywhere in Ontario. 

Ideally I wouldn't have caught more than a couple of each, whereas i currently have 6 crayfish and about 7 minnows. The crays are handy as they deal with any dead matter, namely fish bodies and they require next to zero filtration in a heavily planted tank and basically no feeding. 

I too would love to one day have a huge tank for small mouth bass as I have a personal fondness for them. 

It is too bad the Jefferson Salamanders are nearly gone, they are gorgeous little creatures. Same goes for some type of bright orange salamander I used to find, may be a type of jefferson one, I am not sure. I used to see them all the time in Richmond Hill as a child, never in the last 15 years though.


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## Westender

The bright red salamander you're talking about is probably the red eft, which is the terrestrial form of the red spotted newt. Salamanders are having more and more difficulty existing these days because of the destruction of their ephemeral pools. Newts need permanent pools, preferebly with low fish presence.


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## Pablo

I know of someone who kept rainbow darters successfully. She said as long as you catch them very gently, acclimate them from their lakewater to talk super carefully, and respect all their chemistry and water current likes, they seem to do pretty good.

The sunfish are do-able but there is a very high mortality rate and it seems to be very difficult to get past the terrified to death phase. They're a very jumpy fish. I'm sure it is possible though.

The crawfish from the Rouge River are something I'm sure would work. Very pretty with red claw tips and bluish bodies. 

If you don't know where to find the above I can tell u via PM


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## dekstr

I wouldn't keep any large bass / sunfish / lake fish in my house, as my family loves to go cooking what we catch on fishing trips.

However, I'm definitely intriqued about this keeping some species available.

I believe you have to renew your fishing licence every year.

Thanks a lot for info.


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## Chris S

I think one of the most important points to remember here is that it is illegal to reintroduce any species kept in captivity, along with of course, the need for a fishing licence to capture any fish.

I have kept various freshwater fish from my cottage (Muskoka), but am pretty apprehensive about keeping some of the larger fish, like small and largemouth bass, due to the size they can grow and the migratory nature of bass (they often travel many km's a day)

The most successful I have kept is sunfish and creek chub (which I actually purchased from a bait shop as opposed to catching them myself). Both lived quite happily - the creek chub school very nice. I've also tried yellow perch, but found them very sensitive to captivity and not lasting very long. I have also tried local crayfish, but always found they died when they did their 2nd or 3rd molting (or whatever it is called).

As for amphibians, there are some very neat species up in Muskoka, but I have never kept any - not only because I did not have the proper setup to do so, but because over the last 20 years, I have noticed a very distinct decline in the number of them in the area. For that reason alone, I wouldn't want to disrupt them.

What I know is available in Muskoka:

Beyond the normal Bull and Leopard frogs, there are:
Spring Peeper (looks like to exotictree-frog, Hyla crucifer)
Green and Wood frogs (Rana clamitans/sylvatica - both very interesting frogs)
Redback salamander (pretty elusive, but can be found under rotting logs where there is a fair amount of dampness, Plethodon cinereus) 

If you wanted to take any amphibians, I would suggest doing it in the late spring time and taking some babies, lessening the impact it may have (I figure most will get eaten anyway!)

As for fish, I think it is ok to take various minnows and very common (if not overly common in some places!) like Sunfish or rockbass. Even if legal, I really frown on someone taking bass, trout or perch etc. as they are so stressed by the game fishing industry already. I am an avid fisher, but it is always catch and release, barbless hooks, etc. etc.!


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## Brian

I would like to take some babies but I doubt I ever will.

It would just be great finding some though and actually feel proud of being able to track them down in the woods.

Anyone want to make a trip up North in the summer for some fishing and amphibian tracking?

Lol, I've never actually been camping aside from the "camping" at school as my mother isn't an outdoors person and I never really had a father


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## Westender

My father in law and I have a 'big herp day' every year in the Muskokas. We've found a large number of species up there so far - 

Smooth Green Snake
Eastern Garter Snake
Massassauga Rattle Snake
Black Rat Snake
Hognose Snake
Red Bellied Snake
Brown (DeKay's) Snake
Milk Snake
Fox Snake
Eastern Ribbon Snake
Northern Water Snake
Ringneck Snake

Red backed Salamander (red and brown morph)
Red Eft
Blue Spotted Salamander
Yellow Spotted Salamander
Four Toed Salmander
Mudpuppy

Stinkpot Turtle
Yellow spotted Turtle
Blandings Turtle
Painted Turtle

5-Lined Skink

Pig Frog
Green Frog
Bull Frog
Spring Peeper
Gray Treefrog
Pickerel Frog
Northern Leapard Frog
American Toad
Chorus Frog (heard, not seen)

It's always great to see these animals. We do not keep any of the animals we find. We usually try to head out in the spring as it's easier to find most of the salamanders at that time. I've found that cold weather makes frog spotting impossible but improves the odds on lizards and salamanders. 

I've finally gotten a decent digital camera, so this year I'm going to photograph all of our finds (well, except for the skinks because we usually find more skinks than anything else).


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## Brian

Holy snap... I envy you!


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## Chris S

Whereabouts in Muskoka Westender?


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## Westender

Primarily the Torrance Barrens, but we range all over. Fox snakes aren't always that easy to find. Hognose are really difficult.

There are a number of peat bogs that are particularly good for salamanders and turtles.


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## Chris S

Very cool area. The flora and fauna where I am is actually quite a bit different, being closer to Dorset/Baysville (North East of there).

The only snakes I ever really see are Garter Snakes and the occasional watersnake (which I don't actually know what species of snake it is).

As for turtles, just Painted Turtles and some nice snappers (we have some huge ones in the lake and a couple of years ago one lay eggs up on our driveway).


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## Ciddian

if i can ever rent some time from my gran at her cottage maybe we should all have a weekend up there 

The fish, hard to see somtimes since the lake is so dark is quite beautful... Tonnes of snappers.. and snakes. And there are lots of lovely bog plants you usually dont see..




























I wish i got some photos of the aquatic plants up there... and tonnes of moss. Omg.


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## kris

regardless of the law , i am very interested in starting a tank of ontario species of small fish...any ideas?


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## Brian

You shouldn't break the law... especially not one in place for the preservation of fish.

On a side note... damn, I feel so envious of all of you guys who have been blessed with the chance of going up north and seeing/catching all those magnificent creatures.

</3


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## Pablo

Ciddian said:


> if i can ever rent some time from my gran at her cottage maybe we should all have a weekend up there
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> The fish, hard to see somtimes since the lake is so dark is quite beautful... Tonnes of snappers.. and snakes. And there are lots of lovely bog plants you usually dont see..
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> I wish i got some photos of the aquatic plants up there... and tonnes of moss. Omg.


I've only ever seen one ringneck and one smooth green and one eastern hognose...

the only ones Ive seen frequently are the various garters and ribbons and the dekay's and some redbellies. . . and those black water snakes I ignorantly can not identify.


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## Pablo

kris said:


> regardless of the law , i am very interested in starting a tank of ontario species of small fish...any ideas?


Do some research on the needs of rainbow darters. Its a small fish so you dont need lots of room or equipment. I disagree about this being a bad thing.

If its just one guy, and you only take like two or three, and you're nice to them and do your best... I don't see the harm. You will learn about them. You can then pass this knowledge on to others, and you'll probably be more inclined to protect them in the wild in the future than others because you feel more connected to them so its a net gain...

If you know where to find them I say grab a snorkel, put your digicam in a ziplock, and observe the current, temperature, pH, gH, and kH at the location and get a sense for the environment the animal would want.

Go home, copy it, cycle the tank, go back and collect said fish...

I will say though, that in my experience animals kept in captivity which are wild caught will be come lazy and stupid and may not fair well if re-released- so plan to be in it for the long haul...


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## Chris S

I should stress again, it is a very very bad thing to re-release them and not just for the reasons Pablo mentions.

It may seem cruel, but it is better to kill them if you no longer want to keep them than to rerelease them.


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## Ciddian

there was three ringnecks and that one bigger snake. all in the same darn fissure... You actually have to watch where you sit. Hehe. 

I take photos or hold fish in a tank, then release...


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## Pablo

Chris Stewart said:


> I should stress again, it is a very very bad thing to re-release them and not just for the reasons Pablo mentions.
> 
> It may seem cruel, but it is better to kill them if you no longer want to keep them than to rerelease them.


Ok that's just assanine...

Its one thing to release an animal into the wild which may now have a reduced fight or flight instinct, or as good a hunting ability, etc... But how the hell is killing it so it doesn't suffer logical? Seriously?

Doesn't it have more of a chance of surviving if you let it go, than if you let it go, then kill it?


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## Chris S

That point is assanine, yes, but it wasn't the point I was trying to make. I guess it is my fault for not clarifying what I meant though.

What I was hinting at is that local fish can pickup various diseases and parasites, that they may not otherwise be exposed to, while in captivity. Especially if mixed with other non-local species.

While perhaps the risk isn't huge, it is still there and by re-releasing these fish you can introduce aliens into the local environment that may have severe consequences. 

If I am correct, while the law allows for the collection of local fish, it also specifically outlines that it is illegal to reintroduce them and that they should be disposed of.

I think that if you are going to be collecting local biotopes (and this goes for plants as well), that you should be aware of environmental impact that you could have either by collecting them to begin with, or by rereleasing them.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Westender

Chris is quite right. Not only is it illegal to reintroduce species that you have had in captivity without a specific license, but it is also illegal to transfer fishes from one body of water to another without a licence.

There is a very good reason for this - as he points out - the contamination or introduction of pathogens that may exist in one body of water to another that does not have them. Spring Viremia of Carp is one such disease that is prevelant in captive fishes but has so far not been introduced into most bodies of water in Canada. I'm afraid that it is only a matter of time though.

So the logic of killing rather than releasing is sound, if unpleasant. It would be far better to find another home (in captivity) for the animals.

My experience so far has shown that most people who capture wild animals are not sufficiently prepared to care for them and eventually dispose of them in one manner or another. It is far better to do as Ciddian did - photograph them and release immediately.

I speak from personal experience here - when I was younger I captured and kept animals that I couldn't properly care for. I'm still bothered by that and now I far prefer to spot things and leave them in the wild.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't take animals from the wild, but that if you do so, you should be prepared to keep that animal in a healthy and proper manner for its remaining lifespan.


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## dekstr

It seems very easy to release foreign species to our lakes. When I was younger, whenever I would go fishing w/ extended family, I always wondered why we had to leave the bait minnows out to die rather than dumping them into the lake. Probably because introducing them might cause more harm in the end.

Anyway, I'm more interested in the smaller species of native fish that are easier to keep. I'm sure many tropical fish at LFS are wild caught, so it shouldn't be too hard to find some fish here locally as well that can do well in a fish tank.


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## kris

*native ontario fish*

pablo many thanks for support here , and i see that if i do have those fish , ill not re release them back into ontario waters. Illegal ok , but i hardly think dangerous to any extent as long as i do not reintroduce fish from aquarium back into open waters.


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## Pablo

Chris Stewart said:


> That point is assanine, yes, but it wasn't the point I was trying to make. I guess it is my fault for not clarifying what I meant though.
> 
> What I was hinting at is that local fish can pickup various diseases and parasites, that they may not otherwise be exposed to, while in captivity. Especially if mixed with other non-local species.
> 
> While perhaps the risk isn't huge, it is still there and by re-releasing these fish you can introduce aliens into the local environment that may have severe consequences.
> 
> If I am correct, while the law allows for the collection of local fish, it also specifically outlines that it is illegal to reintroduce them and that they should be disposed of.
> 
> I think that if you are going to be collecting local biotopes (and this goes for plants as well), that you should be aware of environmental impact that you could have either by collecting them to begin with, or by rereleasing them.
> 
> Sorry for the misunderstanding.


Ok now I totally understand.

I think killing them is still crappy though. You should just keep them... or rehome them or something.

you wouldn't get sick of having kids and thus kill them rather than release them into the wild. Pets should be along those lines too....


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## Pablo

kris said:


> pablo many thanks for support here , and i see that if i do have those fish , ill not re release them back into ontario waters. Illegal ok , but i hardly think dangerous to any extent as long as i do not reintroduce fish from aquarium back into open waters.


Exactly. I kept some garter snakes when I was a kid that I found as hatchlings one fall and they were with me for years and years and years. Finally a friend who was inexperienced but 'really wanted to learn about the snakes' insisted that she could feed them and put the lid back on the cage etc... but didn't... and the snakes got eaten by a cat... which sucked... we were only six mind you...

So anyways I digress..

Just collect a very small number of X species, making sure to first make an ideal home for them, never do it again, dont tell anyone, and dont release them.

On a side note: I've frequently kept female praying mantises of the local variety as pets. In September after they've layed their eggs they just walk around until they freeze to death in november anyways... So I figure taking one or two a year to have as a pet (they live until March in captivity so Im like giving them an extra five months of life) until they die is harmless


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## kris

*praying mantis?*

man wher can i get my hands on some predators like that , mantis shrimp , pistol etc...simply beautiful killers


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## Pablo

kris said:


> man wher can i get my hands on some predators like that , mantis shrimp , pistol etc...simply beautiful killers


Well Mantis Shrimp are pretty easy to come by just in low demand.

You're cruisin' for a bruisin' as they used to say 

You want thick gloves, thick glass, a tank just for the mantis shrimp, and some liverock you don't mind having pulverized to swiss cheese...

They're vicious little things...

As far as an actual preying mantis... you can buy an african mantis for like $25 and the setup for it would only be like $50-75 at the most...
A five or ten gallon tank, some nice branches, temperature control to the proper level, and feed it. Crickets are fine. And mist it with a spray bottle in the morning and at night thats the only way they drink, licking water droplets off themselves, leaves, etc. Most people kill them by dehydration because they forget to do this.

http://zfishinc.com/images/bugs/african-mantis.jpg
African mantis

Those are available @ Port Credit Pet Center @ Hurontario and Lakeshore in Mississauga

http://aqua-terra-vita.com/ContactUs.html
Web Wheeler MIGHT have African Spiney Mantis
http://aqua-terra-vita.com/Images/Mantids/AfricanSpineyMantid3x5(300ppi)-1.jpg

Or if you want to get back at me in August or September I can give you a regular Ontario Mantis
http://scruss.com/wordpress/wp-content/green_mantis.jpg

They're very easy to care for and you can even breed them and raise them for next year...


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