# Pressurized CO2



## Darkblade48

Ironically, all my tanks so far have been using DIY CO2, and I'm finally making a big investment into pressurized CO2. I just had some questions regarding the equipment.

Regulators: There are plenty of sites out there, with various offerings. Rex Grigg offers a regulator, and so does Sumo. A bit pricey, though. Other brands include the Milwaukee, though I've heard some bad stories about end of tank dumps when using this regulator. It is much cheaper though.

Solenoids: I know this is optional, but I'm wondering if I should go for one or not. If I do go for one, then it means that I could potentially set the CO2 on a timer, or, if I have a lot of cash to blow (which I don't ), I could go for a pH controller.

The CO2 tank itself: I'm actually planning to use the CO2 on either a new nano cube (6x6x6) or my 2.5g nano. Either way, a huge 20 lb tank would be overkill (as would a 10 lb). I'm wondering if it's better to go with a 5 lb tank, or just to go with a paintball CO2 tank setup. If I do decide to go with the paintball setup, would the regulators (Rex Grigg/Sumo/Milwaukee) fit the paintball tank, or would additional adapters be required?


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## Calmer

Rex Grigg and Sumo have good regulators. My co2 setup is from Rex and it has been nearly a year now and no problem whatsoever. It seems that you only get what you pay for in co2 equipment. The Milwaukee did have problems before but I don't know if they have fixed the problem or not. 
I have the solenoid on a timer and it is worth the money. This gives the fish a chance to sleep with plenty of o2 after the lights go out and saves co2. I believe the pH controller is not necessary as you can set the bubbles/second and use a drop checker as your guide. 
If you are using co2 for one of the aquariums you mentioned then paintball co2 may be the way to go. But if you ever want to use co2 on a larger tank later on then you may find the more expensive units are better.
You will need a co2 tank, regulator, solenoid, co2 airline, check valve, needle valve, drop checker and maybe a bubblecounter. After that you will need to decide on a way of diffusing the co2 into the tank. 
Good luck as it isn't an easy decision to make.


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## ameekplec.

If you have the cash to get one right now, I'd go with one of the better units. Since it's just regulating gas in a non-aqueous environment (or so one would hope) it doesn't really wear out (since you replace the crush washers every time you change tanks anyways), you'd be best off getting a good regulator, so I'd spring for the Grigg one.

As for tanks, I'd go with a 5 or 10. Basically go with a standard size regulator. Sooner or later you're going to want to pop it on a bigger tank, and the paintball regulator isn't going to cut it. And then you're just going to have to buy another regulator that's just as expensive.

Also, solenoid is a must. Saves co2  no point in gassing off half your tank.


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## Darkblade48

The main problem is that Grigg's regulator package is $215 (USD) shipped within the US only (so that means it will be more than $215 USD). The Sumo regulator package is $195 (again, USD, and shipped within the US only). The Milwaukee is $148 CAD after shipping. 

Of course, if anyone has a regulator (with needle valve) + solenoid locally, I'd be willing to purchase it as well. I'm probably going to go for a 5 lb tank, but from what I recall previously, most hydroponics stores only have a huge 20 lb tank. It would look odd to have a 20 lb CO2 tank next to a 6x6x6 cube 

I'm aware of the other things required for a CO2 setup (i.e. drop checker, diffuser, etc), as I was using them when I had a DIY CO2 setup. All that I really need is the tank, regulator, needle valve and solenoid.

Edit: Another option I'm looking at is the GLA regulator which is $150 USD (before shipping).


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## Chris S

Darkblade48 said:


> Regulators: There are plenty of sites out there, with various offerings. Rex Grigg offers a regulator, and so does Sumo. A bit pricey, though. Other brands include the Milwaukee, though I've heard some bad stories about end of tank dumps when using this regulator. It is much cheaper though.


My first regulator was a Milwaukee, and it stopped working after just over a year. I have used two of Rex's since - excellent customer support, his warranty exists for as long as he is making them and they are excellent quality.



Darkblade48 said:


> Solenoids: I know this is optional, but I'm wondering if I should go for one or not. If I do go for one, then it means that I could potentially set the CO2 on a timer, or, if I have a lot of cash to blow (which I don't ), I could go for a pH controller.


Absolutely, solenoids are life savers! Have your co2 turn on an hour before your lights and turn off a half-hour or so before they go out for max usage. You can't really set the system on a timer without it, you have to turn off valve manually.



Darkblade48 said:


> The CO2 tank itself: I'm actually planning to use the CO2 on either a new nano cube (6x6x6) or my 2.5g nano. Either way, a huge 20 lb tank would be overkill (as would a 10 lb). I'm wondering if it's better to go with a 5 lb tank, or just to go with a paintball CO2 tank setup. If I do decide to go with the paintball setup, would the regulators (Rex Grigg/Sumo/Milwaukee) fit the paintball tank, or would additional adapters be required?


A Paintball canister will not work with a regular setup.

I should also mention, for a very small extra cost, you can attach a manifold to your system and run as many tanks as you want off one co2 cylinder. Then you can add co2 to any tank you want. It is worth the initial investment (of like 10 dollars) to have it attached. Then you don't have to worry later on if you want to hook up more tanks (and bigger tanks). You can set the bubble rate for each specific tank with the needle valve.

I use a pH controller too, but have since stopped using it attached to the solenoid. I use it only to constantly measure my pH.

Rex's shipping costs are fair (at cost, since he works for USPS). The little bit extra you will spend is worth every penny in my opinion. Tell him Chris S from Toronto recommended him to you!


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## Calmer

Darkblade48 said:


> Edit: Another option I'm looking at is the GLA regulator which is $150 USD (before shipping).


Yeah, Orlando owns Green Leaf Aquariums and is a sponsor on the APC forum:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/green-leaf-aquariums/

http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/


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## Darkblade48

I'm also looking at normal beer (beverage) CO2 regulators as shown below:

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draf...classic_double_gauge_beer_co2_regulator.shtml

The price is definitely much cheaper than any other regulator I've seen so far; I'm wondering if it might be a little cheaper to simply buy the regulator + needle valve + solenoid separately and piece it together myself.

Edit: OK, nevermind. I just called the Beverage Factory, and they said shipping would be $48 USD 

If anyone has a local source for beer CO2 regulators, that'd be great. Though, in all likelihood, I'll probably go with the regulators that GLA has to offer...now to get a cheap tank. Anyone know of a good place to get a CO2 tank? Camcarb has a 5 lb tank for $110, and a 10 lb for $125, while Hydrotech Hydroponics does have a 20 lb tank for $105. However, a 20 lb tank next to a 6 inch nano cube is kind of...bizarre


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## XbrandonX

Email GLA first cause their shipping is through the roof.. of all the regs you mentioned go with SUMO for cost and customer service. Rex is awesome but he's slow.. I bought mine from him and YES he's an awesome guy and he will bend over backwards for you but he can take a LONG time to get your regulator together and ship it out.. 

I bought his BDR with a 4 port manifold, Ideal needle vale, Perma seal and a solenoid. Best aquarium purchase I ever made maybe... but I sold it and have regretted it since....I miss my big planted tank! (but that's another story)

But, I think I'd get a Sumo next time around. For price, speed, customer service, and their reputation is solid.

You can get a 10 or 15 Lb canister from Norwood fire extinguishers for like $75 full I think.. that's where I got mine, they refill it for $20


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## Darkblade48

XbrandonX said:


> Email GLA first cause their shipping is through the roof.. of all the regs you mentioned go with SUMO for cost and customer service. Rex is awesome but he's slow.. I bought mine from him and YES he's an awesome guy and he will bend over backwards for you but he can take a LONG time to get your regulator together and ship it out..


Shipping at GLA is 26.25 USD, in addition to any customs fees that I might encounter (I've called Orlando to confirm). I've just e-mailed SuMo to see what their shipping costs are, though.

Thus far:
GLA Choice Regulator: 149.99 + 26.25 = 176.24 USD + any custom fees
SuMo Hallmark Regulator: 185.00 USD + shipping + any custom fees

It still looks like GLA is a cheaper option, though.



XbrandonX said:


> You can get a 10 or 15 Lb canister from Norwood fire extinguishers for like $75 full I think.. that's where I got mine, they refill it for $20


Yep, I was checking out various places for CO2 tanks.

Thus far:
Hydrotech Hydroponics: 20 lb only - $133 (CAD) (price has gone up and is different than what the website says)(all prices do not include tax)
Camcarb: 5 lb for $110. 10 lb for $125 (CAD)
Norwood: 5 lb is $75 (CAD) while a 10 lb is $85 (CAD).

Looks like I know what to do now 

Can't wait to order it all and put it all together.

Edit: For those that are curious, I've figured that purchasing all the parts individually is still a little cheaper 

Beer/Beverage regulator: 40 USD + shipping (48 USD)
Solenoid + clippard needle valve (Rex Grigg): 30 + 14 + shipping (26) 
That's $158 USD total (compared to say $176 USD from GLA). Of course, I can't forget that there will need to be some adapter purchases (i.e. various NPT conversions or male/female connections, etc), so let's say an additional $10 (CAD).

I guess the main difference is that the GLA comes with a bubble counter and is already pre-assembled for usage. From there, the pricing on the tanks would be the same; still, ordering the parts separately is the way to go, if you're looking to save about $10.


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## Calmer

Darkblade48 said:


> Hydrotech Hydroponics: 20 lb only - $133 (CAD) (price has gone up and is different than what the website says)(all prices do not include tax)
> Camcarb: 5 lb for $110. 10 lb for $125 (CAD)
> Norwood: 5 lb is $75 (CAD) while a 10 lb is $85 (CAD).


The good thing with Hydrotech Hydroponics is that you get to swap out the 20lb co2 tank rather than refilling your own personal tank. That way the swap tank never gets old and needs retesting. I don't know if the other two companies swap their tanks out as well. Funny thing is that someone in the states was making and selling doilies to cover and hide the tanks.


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## Darkblade48

Well, got an e-mail back from SuMo, looks like shipping will be $29 USD, bringing the final price up to 204 USD. I'll probably go with GLA based on this information.

Regarding the CO2 tanks, yes Hydrotech does a straight swap, whereas with Norwood and Camcarb, you have to take the tanks back to them to have them refilled (on the spot). They also do the hydro testing when the time comes around.

Interesting that you mentioned the doilies; the woman from Hydrotech said that the tanks are *very* ugly.


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## Mr Fishies

I don't own one, but if I were to start again and buy a full set-up today I like the Sumo ones.

For folks in the west end or Peel wanting to try a Red Green DIY type setup, I purchased a filled 5lb tank ~$75 and regulator ~$55 from Simgo, a beverage supply shop in Mississauga. Tank was certified the month before I bought it and the regulator came with a 30lb low pressure gauge (not the normal 60) so it's easy to see your adjustments to the pound - they offered this gauge option when I mentioned it was for an aquarium.

They didn't have them at the time, so I took the 5lb, but I seem to recall 10lb tanks were about $20 more.

I'm still looking to find locally a good needle valve,the big part of safe easy to adjust CO2. Here's the Red Green part: Being thrifty/lazy, I have to say my interim solution with an ice maker needle valve and bits from Lowes for about $10 allows me, with a slight hand, to adjust reliably down to below 1 bubble/second. I check the tank gauge daily (at feeding) and refill as soon as pressure starts to drop (~4 months at 1.5 bps) since the crude valve I am using will allow end of tank dump.

Eventually I'll get a better needle valve and solenoid when I can find it at a good price locally, but I figure at ~$18 a refill, doubling a tank and saving $8-10 a year, the cost of a better needle valve, solenoid, timer at say $80-100 will take a while to pay off so I'm holding out for a deal here too.


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## Darkblade48

To be honest, there's a lot of option for DIYing a regulator, and it doesn't look too difficult.

I'm currently looking at a Victor dual stage (note dual stage is not the same as dual gauge; however, the Victor is also dual gauge) regulator; I can get one for 90 USD shipped.

Following that, I'd need to get a needle valve and the solenoid. A Clippard needle valve is $14 from Rex Grigg, while the Fabco is $22. The solenoid is $30 and shipping is $11 or $25 depending on the final weight.

Total cost: 90 (regulator) + 22 (let's go with the Fabco) + 30 (solenoid) + 25 (let's go with the higher shipping cost) = 167 USD.

Throw in a few adapters that would probably be required (maybe $2-5) and you're looking at $172 USD.

Ultimately, the cheapest option after shipping if not DIYing is GLA (176.24 USD) and the only extra thing it has is the bubble counter. Is a bubble counter worth $4 USD?  I guess in the end, the real winner is the fact that you get a Victor dual stage regulator versus a single stage Cornelius.

Edit: There is another online store (Oregon Aqua Design; site: http://oregonaquadesign.vstore.ca/product_info.php/pName/after-regulator-assembly/cName/co2) that sells an after-regulator kit (Clippard solenoid, bubble counter, Clippard needle valve upgradable to a Fabco for +$10) for 75 USD shipped (85 USD if using the Fabco). Including the Victor regulator, that'd be $175 (I'm assuming the use of a Fabco so that price comparisons can be made), again, about the same price as the GLA or the DIY using parts from Rex Grigg...


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## Mr Fishies

Darkblade48 said:


> To be honest, there's a lot of option for DIYing a regulator, and it doesn't look too difficult.


I agree. After looking at this myself I was convinced as long as one is not mechanically inept it is very easy. Sumo, Rex and others are beverage regulators and off the shelf parts, they have however gone to the hassle of sourcing parts (valves, solenoids, adapters) that are often not economical one at a time.

I'm not convinced a really precise, dual stage regulator is important (but as a gadget nut, they are really nice ). I think if you have a good needle valve, like an Ideal or Swagelok like Sumo use, it will not allow flow to exceed it's setting unless the input pressure to the needle valve is much higher than typical end of tank fluctuations, so all you'd have to worry about is loss of CO2 level, not loss of fish life.

I'm hoping to find a local business to give my money to and want to avoid paying for shipping/duty/exchange.


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## Darkblade48

Mr Fishies said:


> I'm not convinced a really precise, dual stage regulator is important (but as a gadget nut, they are really nice ). I think if you have a good needle valve, like an Ideal or Swagelok like Sumo use, it will not allow flow to exceed it's setting unless the input pressure to the needle valve is much higher than typical end of tank fluctuations, so all you'd have to worry about is loss of CO2 level, not loss of fish life.


Yeah, I figure that a dual stage regulator is a little overkill for our purposes, but hey, when it's 90 USD shipped, might as well try to DIY the whole thing together myself. While an Ideal or Swagelok needle valve would be nice, they're pretty expensive compared to say a Fabco or a Clippard ($65 USD for the Ideal, that's almost 2/3 of the cost of a regulator!)



Mr Fishies said:


> I'm hoping to find a local business to give my money to and want to avoid paying for shipping/duty/exchange.


I'd love to get my hands on a local store as well; I think this is possible for regulators (i.e. I'm pretty sure Camcarb or Soda Centre have (single stage) regulators for relatively cheap). However, for the solenoid and needle valve, you'll probably have to order online.

Edit: Just to do a quick cost analysis for you:
Solenoid: $30 USD
Ideal Needle Valve: $65 USD
Shipping: $25 USD (I always assume the more expensive shipping)
Cost of regular beer/beverage regulator: $55 CAD
120 USD = about $148.50 CAD, so essentially, you're looking at $203 CAD final price for a setup like that.


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## ameekplec.

Have you tried scientific/lab supply houses?
They can be a tad more expensive, but if you find a local source it could be a great place to find high quality parts.

I'm ordering check valves (if you want any let me know) from Cole-Parmer. Shipping is really cheap too.


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## Darkblade48

ameekplec. said:


> Have you tried scientific/lab supply houses?
> They can be a tad more expensive, but if you find a local source it could be a great place to find high quality parts.
> 
> I'm ordering check valves (if you want any let me know) from Cole-Parmer. Shipping is really cheap too.


I just placed an order for a Victor 2 stage regulator for 85 USD shipped.

Now in the market looking for a needle valve and solenoid (a bubble counter would be nice, but I might just DIY one cheaply). Interestingly, there is a Clippard distributor out in Mississauga and I called and inquired about prices. They have the MNV-1KP-1 Needle Valve for $26.58 and the MME-2PDS-D110 solenoid for $36.15. This might be a cheaper option than ordering the needle valve and solenoid online (i.e. Rex Grigg has a Clippard needle valve for $14 USD + Clippard solenoid for $30 USD + shipping and possible custom fees). The one thing I've heard, however, is that Clippard needle valves aren't as good as Fabco, Swagelok, or Ideal needle valves.

For check valves, I've already got some nice brass ones I purchased. I recently took a break from work in Japan and flew over to Hong Kong; they actually have *a lot* of cheap aquarium equipment there. I picked up a nice 6 inch cube for $5.50 Canadian (yes, I actually bought an aquarium and lugged it in my carry on ) as well as various CO2 equipment (drop checkers, U tubes, ceramic disc diffusers, etc) for cheap prices (under $10 CAD). There were also some nice glass lily pipes, but I resisted


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## Mr Fishies

Darkblade48 said:


> While an Ideal or Swagelok needle valve would be nice, they're pretty expensive compared to say a Fabco or a Clippard ($65 USD for the Ideal, that's almost 2/3 of the cost of a regulator!)
> 
> I'd love to get my hands on a local store as well;
> <SNIP>


I think this is the case when you buy a Sumo set-up, since they are using affordable Micromatic regulators which are about US$50 with an ideal needle valve. Since we rarely touch the regulator once its' set to 10-12 lb, I'd rather have a nice, easy to adjust needle valve. Some of the smaller Fabco and Clippard ones with tiny knobs are a bit finicky for adjusting depending on where you read up on them.

In hindsight, it would have been easier to order from Sumo, but I (foolishly?) wanted the challenge of DIY all the way. Sometimes, the leg work involved is not worth the savings/reward if it's a one off.



ameekplec. said:


> Have you tried scientific/lab supply houses?
> <SNIP>
> I'm ordering check valves (if you want any let me know) from Cole-Parmer. Shipping is really cheap too.


I checked the Cole Parmer site for needle valves when we ordered check valves a bit ago and didn't see anything that was obviously compatible/interchangeable. I guess sending them an email with some mfr part numbers of what I want to match might be an idea.


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## Darkblade48

Mr Fishies said:


> In hindsight, it would have been easier to order from Sumo, but I (foolishly?) wanted the challenge of DIY all the way. Sometimes, the leg work involved is not worth the savings/reward if it's a one off.


It's about the challenge 

While I'm sure SuMo has a great reputation, and great customer support (I got an email back from Sergio and Mike very quickly), the price of $215 USD shipped (and that's only within the continental US), was a bit high for my liking. Yes, I understand that they're using an Ideal valve, but still, a little too high for my liking.


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## Darkblade48

Been doing some research, here's some info on Clippard parts (all prices are Canadian dollar, since it's a local distributor).

Solenoid (You will need to purchase a grounded power cord separately)
Part # MME-2PDS-D110 
$36.15

Needle Valve
Part # MNV-4K2 
$26.58 

Low Pressure Regulator (30 psi) 
Part # MAR-1P-3
$34.19 

Essentially, my setup is as follows:
Regulator with 1/4" NPT (F)
1/4" NPT to 1/8" NPT (M to M)
Solenoid 1/8" NPT (F, both sides)

From here, there are several options:

1) 1/8" NPT (M) to 10-32 adapter
Clippard Needle Valve (10-32 ports)
10-32 to hose barb (anyone know the diameter of standard CO2/air tubing?)

2) Clippard Low pressure regulator (1/8" NPT (M) with 10-32 output)
Clippard Needle Valve (10-32 ports)
10-32 to hose barb 

3) 1/8" NPT to 10-32 adapter
Fabco NV-55 Needle Valve (10-32 ports)
10-32 to hose barb

Option 3 is almost the same as option 1, except I'd be using a Fabco. However, a lot of people are saying that the Fabco is best plumbed inline, rather than attached directly (the logic is that the 10-32 threading is too weak, but then why is the Clippard Needle valve attached directly?). Also note that instead of a 10-32 to hose barb, one could easily get a 10-32 to 1/8" NPT (M) and hook it up to a JBJ bubble counter (which is a 1/8" NPT (F), I believe).

I also called a Fabco distributor and am going to get a price quote on their NV-55 Needle Valve as well as their 10-32 adapters.


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## Mr Fishies

Darkblade48 said:


> From here, there are several options:
> 
> 1) 1/8" NPT (M) to 10-32 adapter
> Clippard Needle Valve (10-32 ports)
> 10-32 to hose barb (anyone know the diameter of standard CO2/air tubing?)


3/16" - My check valves and rigid tubing are 3/16" with a nice airtight fit.


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## Darkblade48

Great, now I can see if the various companies carry a 1/8" NPT to 3/16" hose barb fitting.

I'm guessing for an inline Fabco, the best thing would be to find a 1/8" NPT to 3/16" hose barb and connect it to the needle valve via some tubing. Of course, the needle valve would have two 10-32 to 3/16" hose barb adapters (one that comes from the solenoid, and the other that goes to the diffuser).

Looks like everything is finally coming together


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## Darkblade48

Bwahaha, dual stage regulator came in the mail


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