# Questions about the cycle



## woopderson

*My First Cycle Journal (formerly Questions About the Cycle)*

So I am currently in day four of my cycle. Here are the numbers breakdown over the past 3 days. Format is day1:day2:day3

Ph: 6.4:6.0:6.5
Nitrate: 0ppm:5ppm:0ppm
Nitrite: 0:0:0
Ammonia: 3ppm:4ppm:5ppm
Kh/gh have remained at 2

I am using ada amazonia soil. I also have some plants in there, all are low light. I have been dosing with seachem stability, but have not been adding ammonia. I chose not to because I heard ada leeches ammonia, and it clearly is.

My questions:

How come nitrates showed one day and disappeared the next?

And what is this film on my driftwood?

Thanks for your help  )


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## pyrrolin

the substrate may leach ammonia, but without adding extra ammonia, you are only cycling the tank to handle the substrate, not any stock you want to add. I recommend adding ammonia. I believe there is a good guide on how to do this stickied somewhere

The driftwood is most likely just a bit of fungus that seems to get on every piece of wood and goes away after a couple weeks.

you only need to worry about ammonia and nitrite testing for now, once they get down, then check nitrates.


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## woopderson

will do, thanks!

does 5ppm seem high to be dosing more into the tank?


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## mistersprinkles

woopderson said:


> will do, thanks!
> 
> does 5ppm seem high to be dosing more into the tank?


Yes it does. Apparently, going over 4 or 5ish PPM of ammonia can delay the establishing of the nitrifying bacteria. Newer fishless cycling guides are saying to go for 3ppm or so.


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## woopderson

I think what i will do is see if the bacteria will bring it down. If not i will do a wc and monitor. Dosing ammonia will come later. 

thanks!


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## woopderson

Update: Ammonia went down from 5 to 4 PPM. And nitrites are showing up in a small amount. 

Here we go!


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## pyrrolin

if you can get some used media from someone then you can speed up the process greatly


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## woopderson

pyrrolin said:


> if you can get some used media from someone then you can speed up the process greatly


Sadly nobody I know is into the FW side of things, but I am patient.

...Just barely....


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## bob123

Put a request on the forum for some media and maybe one of the members will help you out. I have done it for people in London for people just starting out.


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## Scotmando

I have some free media packed with mulm & bacteria. 

You're welcome to P/U in Mississauga at Derry Rd & 407 area Fri after 6:30pm or Sat after 3pm. 

PM me with your cel# & we can arrange a time.

Really works well.


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## woopderson

Awesome, thanks! I won't be around this weekend as I'm going ice fishing. But perhaps some time next week would work? I will pm you.

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## woopderson

So my levels have all stayed the same aside from ph. It goes between 6.0 and 6.4. Ammonia stays at 4ppm, and the rest are at 0. I have been dosing seachem stability each day as per the package. Has my cycle stalled?

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## pyrrolin

sounds like it, maybe do a 25 percent wc. I assume you are testing before your daily dose of ammonia?


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## woopderson

Yeah I have been testing daily. The ammonia dropped from 5 to 4ppm 6 days ago, then no changes since. I haven't bothered to dose it because nothing changed. I will do a wc and see what happens. Thanks!

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## pyrrolin

Some used media would boost it greatly, make that top priority.


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## woopderson

Hoping so. I'm meeting up with Scotmando this weekend to get some media 



pyrrolin said:


> Some used media would boost it greatly, make that top priority.


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## Scotmando

woopderson said:


> Hoping so. I'm meeting up with Scotmando this weekend to get some media


*Please confirm by text with my cel, I sent in PM.*

Auction starts @ 10:00am & usually goes till 4-5pm

Doors open at 8:00am. 
You really don't have to be too early unless your volunteering to help set-up 
or 
selling 
or 
participating & submitting entries into the show

Everyone is welcome, members & non-members alike.

Check out the HDAS website  for show & auction rules & forms.

Hope to see you there.


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## woopderson

So I added the used media in on Saturday, and some interesting things have happened. Here are today's test results:

PH: stayed at 6.0
Nitrite: stayed at 0
Nitrate: stayed at 0
Ammonia: down from 4.0 to 2.0

Perhaps trites and trates are being processed quickly? Once ammonia hits 0 I will dose back up to see what happens.

Thoughts?


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## pyrrolin

dose daily, the bacteria should have a consistent source of ammonia and very soon you will see nitrites. Just dose ammonia daily for a few days. I guess in 3 or 4 days, before dosing ammonia, test ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. If ammonia and nitrites are 0, then you are cycled, you will most likely read some nitrates but it is possible nitrates might not be readable if plants use them up. If after 3 or 4 days ammonia and nitrites are not quite 0, wait a couple more days. 

It is also possible that you will not detect nitrites. This could happen if the bacteria that eats nitrites is doing very well and keeps up.

Remember, cycled simply means that there is enough bacteria to use up ammonia and nitrites to keep levels at 0 for the level of ammonia added. If for example the ammonia used is about the same as 6 fish, then you are cycled for 6 fish, adding more than that would mean ammonia and nitrite levels could go up so don't add fish too fast.


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## woopderson

Awesome, thanks! I will keep this thread updated daily 

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## woopderson

Here are today's updates and observations:

Ph: 6.0 or less
Ammonia: 3ppm (i dosed up 1ppm last night)
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0

I've noticed a few things.
1. The milky fungus that was on my driftwood is now going away. A black fluffy one is replacing it.

2. I have critters. I believe they are copepods. They move in short bursts, resembling hopping. There are also what I think are nematodes. Ultra thin, and wriggle rapidly in the water. They don't have a visible head shape at all.

3. There appears to be a little bit of a film on the water's surface. I had a HOB filter at the moment, but perhaps there isn't enough surface agitation?

4. Some of my plants appear as pictured.

Thanks in advance!


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## pyrrolin

Try reducing the light cycle a bit. Less light also helps cycling faster.

what is this black algae? it is stringy or little bits on the tips of plants?

The critters will probably just be bonus fish food when you add fish


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## woopderson

Sounds good, I have toned the light down a bit. How come less light is better?

The algae does not appear on the plants. That seems to be stuff that settles on them. If I poke an anubias leaf or wiggle some of the other plants the black stuff falls off. On the driftwood, however, it seems to be fluffy little balls. If you like I can get you a better picture this evening.



pyrrolin said:


> Try reducing the light cycle a bit. Less light also helps cycling faster.
> 
> what is this black algae? it is stringy or little bits on the tips of plants?
> 
> The critters will probably just be bonus fish food when you add fish


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## pyrrolin

bacteria do better in the dark. Keep an eye on that dark stuff, not sure what it would be exactly


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## woopderson

Interesting results for today, and we have forward movement!

Ph: 6.0 or less
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2ppm wooooo!
I have dosed up to bring it to 4ppm

The plants seem a bit happier today having had the light off. That being said, there appears to be a bit more of the black fluffy stuff about. Perhaps it is algae, and having the light off will help? Here are some more pictures.


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## pyrrolin

one cause of algae is too much light, it loves light


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## woopderson

Most definitely it loves light. Here's hoping that it goes away in time. If not i may need to get one or two members of my cuc hired on soon!


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## woopderson

Results for today:

Ph: up from 6.0 to 6.4
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2ppm or a little less

I dosed up again to 4ppm. Its good to see that it is being processed. 

Since reducing the light the black algae does not appear to have expanded.

Here is a plant that was looking rough, but you can now see some bright green new growth!


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## pyrrolin

once you see new growth, you can be sure the plant will be fine. Remember to remove any bad leaves so the plant isn't wasting energy trying to repair it.

Looks like early next week you might be ready for fish at this progress. Nice bonus not seeing nitrites.

I personally wouldn't worry about checking ph. Things like driftwood lower ph over time, generally not something to worry about unless you have a special species of fish that really demands a certain ph. I also do not recommend using any chemicals that adjust ph.


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## woopderson

Good, I'm glad to hear that. I will spend some time this evening cleaning things up.

The reason I have been testing PH is because I will actually be keeping shrimp in this tank. I've heard/read that if you get juvenile ones and do a drip acclimatization all is good (they can live in lower or higher than normal range). I would prefer a ph of around 6.6.

If I do need to bump the ph I will look for some natural methods. Nice to see the ph come up to 6.4, as it was registering 6.0 or less for some time.

Adventure!


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## woopderson

Alrighty folks, its time for another round.

Ph: down from 6.4 to 6.0 or less
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: down fron 4 to 2 or a bit less

Woohoo! Good stuff. I have attached a pic of the ammonia test, along with a fts ++ bonus pic of one of the plants who has tripled in size since the tank startup.


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## woopderson

Today's readings:

Ph: up from 6.0 to 6.4
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: down from 4 to just above 2ppm

Dosing back up to 4. 

Hope everyone had a great Saturday!

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## woopderson

Sunday stats:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: down from 4 to 2.5ppm

Seems to be holding at this rate. What are your thoughts?


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## pyrrolin

a few more days, maybe before the next dose, do a 25 percent wc


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## woopderson

Kk will do. Thanks, pyrrolin 

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## philipraposo1982

if u want an easy way to bump up ph you can use 1 tsb baking soda to 1 cup water for everyone 5 gallons.

and then dose 1/4 of that every 30 min and test to get desired results.


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## woopderson

Thanks for the tip! 

Here are today's readings. Kind of concerning...perhaps.

Ph: 6.0 or less
Nitrate: above 0 but below 5 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: just about 2ppm

The fact that ammonia hasn't changed is concerning, but the appearance of nitrate indicates things may still be under way.

I did a 20% wc, and will retest ammonia levels. After which I will dose ammonia up to 3ish ppm.

EDIT: After doing the wc ammonia tested at 1.5ppm. I dosed up to 3. Prior the wc I noticed the hob filter was not running as it should be. The sponge over the intake had become clogged. I gently removed the crud, and cranked the flow up. I have a hunch that things halted due to the lack of flow from the filter.

Lets see how things play out.tomorrow!


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## pyrrolin

that could play a role for sure. Might take more than 24 hours to see much difference though


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## woopderson

Gotcha, thanks for the heads up. It will be tough to be patient! But at least my motherboard has returned for my gaming pc (part fried and had to rma it), and I can set my mind on rebuilding it tonight.


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## woopderson

Greetings! Here are today's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: unsure, check out the attached pic and let me know what you think.








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## philipraposo1982

3-4ppm it looks like to me.


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## woopderson

Today!

Ph: 6.0 or less
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 1ppm

Gonna dose up to 3ppm


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## woopderson

Results for Thursday:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2ppm

Slowly...slowly...


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## pyrrolin

I expected it to go faster with used media, guess it wasn't as much as I was hoping


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## woopderson

Agreed, I blame low ph caused by driftwood and the amazonia.

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## woopderson

Results for Friday:

Ph: 6.6 that seems like a drastic swing
nitrate: 0
nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2.5

I didn't dose yesterday, but there were some dead plant leaves so I took them out. I will not be dosing today.


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## pyrrolin

I never worry about ph. In my 20 long for example, the ph changes greatly due to co2.


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## philipraposo1982

Such a long process. I don't know why people go this method. With product like ATM colony and tetra safe start you can have cycled tank in 1-2 weeks.


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## woopderson

The only reason I'm watching ph closely is because I want this to mostly be a dwarf shrimp tank. CRS and such!

I was told by Shrimp Fever that the Amazonia substrate can take 6-8 weeks to cycle. We have now completed week 4. Unsure if I would go with this stuff again, but lets see how the cycle plays out.

Today's results:
Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Ammonia: 2.5

I think ammonia hasn't changed is because I put an algae wafer in there to feed some hitch hiker snails and just left it in. I also need to do some plant cleaning.

On a final note, I see some eggs that have been laid. Snail eggs? This is on a branch under water. See attached pic!

Hope everyone had a great Saturday!


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## pyrrolin

Ah, that substrate must leach ammonia, that explains why it is taking so long then.

No idea on the eggs


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## woopderson

Yeah amazonia is said to leach ammonia. I have almost a full bag left for the next tank (incoming mts). Next time I will just run an airstone in a bucket with the substrate to let it do its leaching first.

Here is another pic of the eggs. I am fairly sure they belong to the hitch hiker snails. Which are doing very well by the way. Lol


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## woopderson

Sunday's test scores:

Ph: 6.4
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2.5

Ammonia hasn't changed because the algae wafer piece is still breaking down. It is almost gone. Everything in the tank looks nice and healthy. All the plants are happy and my mini cuc is working away.


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## woopderson

Yarrrrrr! It be Tuesday, but here is Monday's results:

Ph: 6.5
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2

I decided to wait on the nitrate test as it hasn't really shown up at all. Good to see the ammonia drop down a bit. I did some cleanup yesterday in the early evening (removed some dead leaves and such). The algae wafer is now completely gone so we _should_ see some movement now.


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## woopderson

Tuesday's results:

Ph: 6.4
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2

I found a dead snail and removed it, but the nematodes had pretty much destroyed the thing! The dead snail probably contributed to the ammonia staying at 2ppm.


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## woopderson

Good news everyone, it appears that my suspicions were accurate.

Here are Wednesday's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 1ppm
Dosing back up to 3.

Relief is what I feel right now. On another note, my anubias just sprouted a new leaf, and this guy is now as tall as the tank!


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## woopderson

Results for Thursday:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2

Holding at a rate of 1PPM/day
At least it is progress!


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## pyrrolin

Maybe you can get some more used media to help speed it up?


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## woopderson

Perhaps, but I don't think I have room. Scotmando gave me enough to fill the entire hob!

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## Mykuhl

Not to discourage you but...sometimes it can take longer for the nitrite to get to zero than the ammonia(unfortunately that happened to me every time), although not always. Once your ammonia levels get down to zero(or near zero)and younstart getting nitrites...you are about half done. Now its a waiting game for the nitrite to zero out.

It is good that your ammonia is lowering quite a bit...you are making progress. Although I too am surprised that your cycle is not going faster with the seeded media thatbyou got. You should have at least starting showing for nitrite. How much of the space in your HOB has the used media in it and how much of it is new? Maybe it just wasn't seeded enough.

Good luck!


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## woopderson

Good to know! But not to worry, I am definitely not discouraged. for me the nitrite hasn't shown up despite the amount of ammonia that has been consumed.

I would say the hob is 80% seeded media. How tightly packed should the media be backed? At the moment it is in there pretty tight. I wonder if that is the issue. Not enough water getting to that tastey media?


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## Mykuhl

It is strange that you are not getting a Nitrite reading given that your ammonia levels are lowering quite a bit. Maybe your test kit is not working...either that or you have plants that are using up the ammonia. As to how dendily packed it should be...as long as water flow is not significantly reduced you are fine.


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## woopderson

I would agree about the lack of nitrite. The plants are growing very well. 

The hob itself isn't restricted, but I question it because the media (which the 80% is filter floss) may be packed too tightly, preventing the water from flowing through it at a better rate.

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## Mykuhl

Ok, in that case it is most likely the plants that are using up the ammonia as a food source directly(plants are known to do that). I would still suggest that you comfirm that your nitrite kit is not faulty. If it is working fine then in this case it is good sign that your ammonia is going down and that you are not getting any nitrites. That means you are experiencing what is called a "silent cycle", where the plants use up the toxic ammonia before it gets a chance to build up to harm the fish and you will not get nitrite or even nitrate showing up. Doing a silent cycle is another way to cycle a tank. After you confirm that your nitrite test is working...I would suggest you dose ammonia up to a level of 3-4ppm and test to see how long it takes for it to reach zero. Once you find that it reads zero in 12 hours or less, you are effectively cycled.

Aboutnthe filter floss...it is pretty hard to pack it too tightly in a HOB,,so I don't think you have to worry about that.


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## woopderson

Yeah I went ahead and losened it up anyway. It was pretty much a hard ball. Water clouded up a bit, so I will let it settle and test tomorrow. I will most likely hit a LFS on Sunday. Thanks for the help!

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## pyrrolin

loosening it sounds like a good idea.

I am not worried about the nitrites. Because of the used media, it may have just had lots of the bacteria that eats nitrites. And the plants seem to be using up the nitrates.

Just to check, what is the tank size and the filter?


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## woopderson

Tank is 26g, filter is an aquaclear 30. After loosening the floss there was a big cloud that has pretty much cleared away. 

I had a tough debate as to wether to go with sponges or the Ac30 early on.

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## pyrrolin

ac 30 is the minimum I would use on a tank that size. I assume this is a taller tank? If so, I would have gone with ac50 for sure.

exactly what media do you have in the filter besides the floss you were given?


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## woopderson

I wish I had known this before 

Perhaps I will upgrade down the road when MTS kicks in, and I do the smaller office tank I have dreamed up. 

As far as media goes, there is the floss, the sponge that comes with the AC30, and the sponge on the intake. I didn't put the carbon in because I was following the sticky, which says no carbon for shrimpies.


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## Mykuhl

You are just keeping shrimp as the livestock right? If so, the ac30 is definitely a sufficient filter for that sized tank.


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## woopderson

Yeah its going to be 90% shrimp. I wanted to try a couple thai micro crabs as well. That and maybe a couple oto cats.

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## pyrrolin

Ok, I have a solution for you. You are missing the main bio media. Get some bio media and put it on top of the floss. If you have to remove some floss, rinse it out repeatedly in the tank water to try to get all the bacteria off it. Your tank will cloud up but will clear in a few hours.

The bacteria will then start to colonize on the bio media and have enough room to multiply enough to cycle the tank.

Due to the substrate leaching ammonia, which if it does this for a long period such as many months or years, I recommend doubling the bio media. You could even right now have the sponge and two bio media in the filter and just rinse all the bacteria you can from the floss in the tank and then just toss it out.

This may cause a slight fall back of the cycle process but it will then be able to rebound back faster and finish your cycling.


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## woopderson

I will pop out to grab that tomorrow. Is there a specific bio media that works best?

I'm coming across another issue: the sponge on the hob is clogging very quickly, and is generally hindering its performance. Thoughts on what to replace the sponge with?

Results for today:

Ph: 6.4
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2



pyrrolin said:


> Ok, I have a solution for you. You are missing the main bio media. Get some bio media and put it on top of the floss. If you have to remove some floss, rinse it out repeatedly in the tank water to try to get all the bacteria off it. Your tank will cloud up but will clear in a few hours.
> 
> The bacteria will then start to colonize on the bio media and have enough room to multiply enough to cycle the tank.
> 
> Due to the substrate leaching ammonia, which if it does this for a long period such as many months or years, I recommend doubling the bio media. You could even right now have the sponge and two bio media in the filter and just rinse all the bacteria you can from the floss in the tank and then just toss it out.
> 
> This may cause a slight fall back of the cycle process but it will then be able to rebound back faster and finish your cycling.


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## Mykuhl

No, I strongly disagree...don't just rinse out all the filter floss media in the tank and throw it out. That is not a good idea because most of the bacteria will be living attaches to the the filter floss not on the gunk that is on it. So buy throwing out the floss media you will be throwing out most of the established bacteria in the filter.

It appears that it is the plants that are using up most of the ammonia not the bacteria. If the bacteria was using up up much or most of the ammonia you would haveva nitrite reading.


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## woopderson

In that case, should I keep it in the tank while the bio media seeds in the hob?



Mykuhl said:


> No, I strongly disagree...don't just rinse out all the filter floss media in the tank and throw it out. That is not a good idea because most of the bacteria will be living attaches to the the filter floss not on the gunk that is on it. So buy throwing out the floss media you will be throwing out most of the established bacteria in the filter.


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## pyrrolin

if you don't mind it sitting in the tank that would be best. The main thing is to get bio media in the filter. I use the aquaclear bio media but that is just because it is handy. There is better bio media out there. I recently saw a video that had some media that was made out of glass that looks to be very good.

The sponge on the filter intake needs to be cleaned regularly. At least once a week, maybe more.


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## woopderson

Perfect, thanks to the both of you 

I hugely appreciate all the advice!


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## Mykuhl

Yes, I would recommend putting the filter floss in a a mesh bag packed loosely(that is if it isn't just one piece)on the bottom of the tank right under the filter intake. Leave that in there a while, until everything reads at a safe level, then you can throw it out.

The sponge that is getting clogged easily...is it a prefilter...covering the intake of the HOB? If so, these do tend to get clogged pretty quickly and it will reduce the floe quite a bit. It should be cleaned out at least weekly.


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## woopderson

Correct, the sponge is over the intake. I cleaned it two days ago, but I must not have been thorough enough. The floss is in one big piece. I will unfurl it.



Mykuhl said:


> Yes, I would recommend putting the filter floss in a a mess bag packed loosely(that is if it isn't just one piece)on the bottom of the tank right under the filter intake. Leave that in there a while, until everything reads at a safe level, then you can through it out.
> 
> The sponge that is getting clogged easily...is it a prefilter...covering the intake of the HOB? If so, these do tend to get clogged pretty quickly and it will reduce the floe quitena bit. It should be cleaned out at least weekly.


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## Mykuhl

You're welcome... Happy to help.


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## Mykuhl

I personally really dislike sponge prefilter for that exact reason...they clog up too quickly. If you feel that you do need one, you are better off using one that has a pretty coarse sponge. If you can't find one with a coarse sponge then making one yourself is pretty easy.

Sponge filters tend to be quite popular with shrimp hobbyists that want to breed them or care about keep the babies if they do breed. They are popular for a reason...they do not suck up or harm baby shrimp and they are easy to maintain.


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## woopderson

Yeah it is becoming a bit of a pain. Not harming the babies was the original reason for putting the sponge. Right now it is a fairly fine sponge on there, so perhaps a coarse one won't clog as much.

Down the road I may switch to sponges, but that is for another day 



Mykuhl said:


> I personally really dislike sponge prefilter for that exact reason...they clog up too quickly. If you feel that you do need one, you are better off using one that has a pretty coarse sponge. If you can't find one with a coarse sponge then making one yourself is pretty easy.
> 
> Sponge filters tend to be quite popular with shrimp hobbyists that want to breed them or care about keep the babies if they do breed. They are popular for a reason...they do not suck up or harm baby shrimp and they are easy to maintain.


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## Mykuhl

Yah, a coarser one will not clog as fast for sure. The really fine ones can get clogged up in only a couple of days.


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## woopderson

Think the coarse one would suck up the shrimp fry?



Mykuhl said:


> Yah, a coarser one will not clog as fast for sure. The really fine ones can get clogged up in only a couple of days.


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## Mykuhl

Possibly...but only if it is very coarse.


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## woopderson

I will pa-rouse tomorrow while at the LFS to see what they have.


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## Mykuhl

Interestingly enough even if some of them do get sucked up...some will survive and live in the filter.


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## pyrrolin

I have found guppy fry in my ac filters before.

One thing about the prefilter. Right now there are no fish I assume. So just take it off. One thing that could be happening is good bacteria is building up on the prefilter and you are washing it away every few days. This could slow down your cycling. Since you don't need it I assume, just don't use it until you are cycled and have shrimp in there and actually need it.


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## pyrrolin

The wonderful thing about these forums is you can get more than one answer and view point.

I have tried my best to help you and will continue to do so. I also like that others are helping with things I miss or bringing up another point of view that both teaches me or gives me new ideas, such as just removing the prefilter for now. It also reminded me that I need to get some prefilters on my filters on this 20 long that I recently added shrimp to. Now if I can just remember next time I am at the store.....


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## woopderson

The media is in, and the floss was squeezed out in the tank. It is now sitting under the intake. I forgot to bring my test kit in, but all good. Here is the tank just after the floss squeezing. A bit cloudy! Haha


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## woopderson

Results for this evening:

Ph: 6.0
Nirite: 0
Ammonia: 2

Think it needs a vacuum?


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## Mykuhl

Yah, pyrrolin has point. If you are constantly taking out the prefliter to clean it you could be killing the bacteria that is colonizing in it. That is if you are cleaning it in tap water and not water taken out of the tank. 

I also agree that you don't need to use the prefilter until you actually introduce the shrimp. If you have been cleaning out your prefiler sponge with tank water this whole time then I would leave it on, if in tap water then just take it off till you put the shrimp in.

About the vacuuming up the detritus...doesn't hurt to leave it there for a bit, and it might help, seeing as you just squeezed out the filter floss...there might be some good bacteria on it.


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## woopderson

I was rinsing the sponge in RO water. Won't do that again! I also picked up some sponge that is a bit more coarse.


----------



## Mykuhl

RO water shouldn't harm the bacteria as far as I know. It is usually the chlorine in tap water that kills the bacteria.


----------



## pyrrolin

yeah, leave the mess in the tank for now. Some of the mess is bacteria.

Even using RO water you would be rinsing away some bacteria, but it wouldn't hurt what remains on the sponge.

I find the best, safest and most convenient way to clean sponges is when doing a water change, just squeeze it out in a bucket of old tank water you just removed.

What bio media did you go with and did you fill it up?


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## woopderson

Alrighty, in the tank it stays! I bought the bio max packs from Aqua Clear. So it is now 2/3 bio max and 1/3 sponge in the hob. It has been running since around 2pm-ish yesterday.


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## pyrrolin

sounds great. I hope we see some good progress soon.


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## woopderson

Here are today's stats:

Ph: 6.6
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 1.5ppm

Dosing to 3ppm.

We have made it through Monday.


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## woopderson

Tuesday! 

Ph: 6.2
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2 or a bit higher

No dose today


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## Mykuhl

Hmm...it is interesting that your PH keeps changing. Its good that it is consistently consuming ammonia. I am curious to see how much longer it will take for to go down to zero in 24 hours. May I suggest that you don't dose any ammonia until it reaches zero then dose to 3ppm. I want to see how days it takes for it to read zero from its current level.


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## woopderson

Yeah the ph is all over the place. I will let the ammonia run to 0 as requested 

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## Mykuhl

Yah, I think it is a good idea. Based on what I can see so far...it looks like your tank is processing about 1ppm a day. We need to figure out how consistent it is. If it is steady then you should see zero or near zero reading in 2 days. If not, we need to figure out what is going on. If you still have a pretty high reading in 2 days, I can give you some more well cycled media if you want.


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## woopderson

That would be hugely appreciated! I am unsure that it will in 2 days. The only time I have dosed is when I mention so in the thread. I am concerned something else is holding it back.

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## pyrrolin

I believe it was the lack of bio media to house the bacteria and it should start going well soon since you added bio media.

I like the idea of letting it go to zero to see how things are going. One of the biggest things that is slowing this cycle down is the substrate leaches ammonia. I expect it to get going well in the next few days with some real progress.


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## Mykuhl

You are welcomed to the used media if you do need it when ever you want
want it. Just let me know when you would like to come and pick it up and we will work something out.


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## woopderson

Wednesday: 

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2

Mykuhl lets wait and see on the media. Starting to worry it is stalling out. Argh


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## woopderson

Also, why do you suppose my PH is so all over the place? Low oxygen? Perhaps that could be hindering bacterial growth, seeing as it is usually 6.0 or less.


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## pyrrolin

no ideas on the ph changes. the filter will put oxygen in the tank and so will the plants. Might just be the normal changes with plants using co2 when the light is on and not using it when the light is off.


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## woopderson

Hmmm. My light cycle is pretty short, but the tank is in an area that gets decent light during the day time (at least I think). I only have the light to come on from 5pm-11pm. Perhaps a bit more is required?


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## pyrrolin

longer won't change the ph changes, just when it changes. This lower light time helps the bacteria and should be plenty of time for the plants to do ok. I wouldn't change unless the plants need more time on.


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## woopderson

Woohoo! Short week! Just finished up helping Mykuhl move his 130g tank into his new apt. What a massive thing it is! I picked up a sponge filter but haven't put it in yet. Will probably do so tomorrow.

Not so woohoo: this damnable cycle.

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 2


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## woopderson

Friday update: I bought a sponge filter and will be running that in tandem with the hob. Trimmed some plants and did a touch of cleanup. Look at that java moss go!

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 1.5


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## BillD

There seems to be some confusion here. The sponge inserts in an AC filter are bio media. Prior to the renaming of the AC line, it was the only bio media. The ceramic rings were added with the renaming. Regardless, the low pH (below 7) will have an effect of slowing the cycle down.


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## pyrrolin

adding a sponge filter won't do much good unless you plan to keep it in there even after you are cycled. Once you remove it, you won't be cycled anymore. Sponge filters are normally used for breeding tanks and such, not display tanks because they are ugly. Also co2 doesn't work well with a sponge filter going. I run many sponge filters on my extra tanks that aren't display due to the much lower cost of running them.

Yes the sponge in ac filters doubles as mechanical and bio filtration. But the sponge needs to be cleaned once in a while which removes some bacteria so with the ceramic bio media you still have plenty of bacteria to keep things stable. Clean ac sponges in used or at least dechlorinated water, just a few sqeezes to keep the flow through it.

I hope to see some good improvement soon on the ammonia eating critters.


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## woopderson

I plan on keeping the sponge filter in, because of dead spots in the tank. Once the sponge goes back onto the hob intake there will be less flow. Believe it or not, I like the sponge filter 

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## woopderson

Hey folks! I didn't test yesterday because I was away. Here is today's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 1.5

Yeargh.


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## woopderson

Monday:
Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 1

Woot!


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## pyrrolin

you dosed back up to 4 ppm and it dropped to 1?


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## woopderson

Nope, still running down to 0. Going slooooow. But progress is good!

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## woopderson

Tuesday brings something very very exciting! I now have proof that there is bacteria at work.

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 30ppm
Ammonia: 0.75ppm

As we discussed before, the ammonia is also being leeched by the substrate. That explains the very slow decline in level. I decided to test Nitrate on a whim, and was pleasently surprised with the result. Nitrites must not have shown up because the bacterial culture has enough horsepower to process it before it even registers.

I had originally stopped testing nitrates because it wasn't registering. I guess the seeded media and Seachem Stability really got things rolling.

What are your thoughts?


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## woopderson

Wednesday:
Ph: 6.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40ppm
Ammonia: 0.5ppm

It seems to be working!

My anubias has some fringe yellowing...any ideas why?


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## fyns

Looks like the cycled media has been working. Unless you fertilized with nitrogen... And on that note, I am no expert, but I would hazard a guess the plants need some fertz.


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## woopderson

Yeah I am hugely relieved that the culture is working away. Getting down to 0 will take some time because of the leeching.

No ferts have been added thus far, but perhaps it is time to research invert safe ferts.


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## pyrrolin

could be light time, ferts or something else.

I recommend due to the 40 ppm nitrates that you do a 25 percent water change to help keep that in line. You want to try to keep it under 30 for fish. 

water changes also help replenish minerals for the plants.


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## woopderson

Yeah I may start to lightly dose a fert. Tonight I will be doing my WC.

Thursday's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
Nitrate: 40 or a bit more


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## pyrrolin

I would dose ammonia to 4 ppm after the wc as the wc will bring it damn close to 0


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## woopderson

Sounds like a plan. I will wc, test, and then dose!

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## woopderson

Friday:

Did a 25% wc.

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 30ppm
Ammonia: 0.25-0.5ppm

Dosing ammonia to 4ppm.

Did some more plant trimming and added a few. Hope everyone had a great friday


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## Mykuhl

Really good to see that you are making good progress with your cycle. 

I agree about using the certs at this time. If your plants are actively growing they will need it to stay healthy. That is probably the reason your anubias is getting a little yellow.


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## woopderson

Saturday has yielded some exciting results. Yesterday after testing I added a total of 4ppm. That would have made it ~4.35ppm.

Today's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 35ppm
Ammonia: ~2ppm

Woah! Hello bacterial horsepower, thanks for coming out! It took 7 weeks! Glad to see the patience is paying off.


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## Mykuhl

Great to hear. Looks like you have made a large step forward towards the end of your cycle.


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## pyrrolin

Adding the new bio media seemed to do the trick. In theory, ammonia should be about 0 tomorrow.

Nitrates are at the high level still. In a couple days I would do another good size water change to help lower nitrates.

if ammonia is at 0 tomorrow and nitrites are still 0, then I think you will be cycled in just a few days or so.

you probably don't want to keep the floss floating around in there forever. If there is a large change in ammonia then I would squeeze it out as well as you can and remove it so it won't be in the way when you are ready for fish. If ammonia goes to about 0, then we can be sure that there is a good amount of bacteria in the filter and the floss won't be needed anymore.

can't believe it has been 7 weeks already.

Do you have a stock list already planned?


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## woopderson

Yep it has been a long time. 

Here are Sunday's results:

Ph: 6.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40
Ammonia: ~1

Why must it slow so much as it gets to 0 

I do have my stock list planned. This is the starting lineup:

10ish CRS
4-6 Thai Micro Crabs
2 Oto cats

Mostly looking to have the CRS breed


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## pyrrolin

wont the crabs kill the crs babies? Or do you just want to be able to say you have crabs?

that sounds like a fairly low bio load. I believe the guide for fishless cycling is to be able to fully stock a tank.

I might be wrong, but I'm thinking if you can get it so that ammonia of 2.0 drops to 0 in 24 hours you would be cycled for that fish load since you aren't stocking that much at first


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## woopderson

As far as I know the crabs are/should be community friendly, but perhaps I will double check!

Even though I'm not stocking heavily I wanted to be very careful with my first foray into the hobby. I didn't want to burn myself with a bad cycle and kill a bunch of stuff. This one just took a long time!

I am comfortable with 2ppm drop to 0 in 24 hours. I won't removing the floss for a few days yet. As a result of moving a 125g I was given a 20g long for a good price, and yesterday for moving an 85g cube I got an 8g fluval flora. The flora will be set up next and I will be seeding the floss in there for some time! I will do a journal in the Invert section for it.


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## woopderson

Been doing a good amount of research on the Thai Micro Crabs. It all seems to point to the following:

A) Similar/same diet to Dwarf Shrimp and they will filter feed 
B) The max size for the carapace is approximately the size of a pencil eraser tip
C) They are harmless to shrimp
D) They are nocturnal for the most part (going to have to get an LED fixture with moonlight soon!)


Yeah I think I will be grabbing a few, and will report back with my findings.


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## woopderson

Monday's results:

Ph: 6.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~40PPM
Ammonia: 0.5 or a touch higher

I think the substrate is keeping it from reaching 0. The ammonia that I add is getting crushed, but for some reason reason it has so much trouble as we get closer to 0.


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## Mykuhl

Did you dose ammonia yesterday and the day before? Was it dosed to 4ppm each day?


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## woopderson

Ammonia was last dosed 3 days ago 

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## woopderson

Tuesday's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 45ppm
Ammonia: 0.5ppm dead on

Then did a 20% water change, and let it circulate for 20 minutes.

Tested ammonia: 0.3ppm

Should I dose, or leave it to see if it will run down?

I am going to pick up a different ammonia tester tomorrow.

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## Mykuhl

I say dose it back up to 4ppm. You need to know how much ammonia the cycle is consistently using per day. I think you should dose up to 4ppm each day and monitor how much ammonia is being eaten up.


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## pyrrolin

I think dosing to 4 each day would be a good idea. You also need to do more wc to keep nitrates under 30, 10 to 20 should be your goal after a water change.

I find it odd that it stays at .5 so getting a new test kit sounds like a very good idea.


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## woopderson

Alrighty, thanks to both of you 

I tested again just now, and read 0.3ppm. Maybe the kit has issues with low ammonia levels? Anyway, I will buy a new one and retest tonight. 

I have dosed to 4ppm.


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## woopderson

I found a very interesting article that talks about ammonia types.

Check it out: http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

I will be getting another API liquid test, and will also get the Seachem Alert Monitor to see how they read.

It looks like a couple more water changes me also be in order.


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## woopderson

Okie dokie. Wednesday:

Ph: 6.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40
Ammonia: 2ppm on the dot

I bought a Seachem Alert Monitor that strictly measures toxic ammonia. It reads 0.02 or.less.

The new api test also reads 2ppm.


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## Mykuhl

It's good you got that ammonia alert. What reading did you get on it?


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## woopderson

Updated post 

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## Mykuhl

Awesome. You are at a completely safe level then. The level of toxic ammonia is all that really matters. I suggest that you dose up to 4ppm everyday for a few more days...I You find that your ammonia alert is still firmly reading at the "Safe" level after 24 hours or less and you are still not getting any nitrite, then it is safe to add your full stock. Just do a large water change to get your nitrate down to 10ppm or less.


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## woopderson

Okie dokie. Tomorrow I will be removing the floss and putting it in a bucket with a heater and hob for future seeding.

Here are today's results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 30-40 seems a bit less than 40, perhaps the plants used it.
Ammonia: ~1ppm
Toxic ammonia: <0.02 (reads as safe on ammonia alert)

I did another 20% wc, and will dose to 4ppm. Also added a tiny bit of Seachem Flourish.


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## Mykuhl

Sounds good. Did you dose back up to 4 ppm yesterday? Is that reading of 1ppm a drop from 4ppm yesterday?

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## woopderson

Alas, no. I dosed not yesterday but the day before. So we have gone from 4ppm to 2ppm to 1ppm. It seems to sort of slow and level off on a curve, lol. I will be dosing to 4ppm tonight, however.

Odd ammonia curve aside, this is way more progress than ever. That makes me very happy


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## woopderson

So, I just dosed to 4ppm of ammonia. Let's see what the alert monitor says tomorrow night. Attached is a pic just after dosing. You can see it hit 0.5ppm (could be more) of toxic ammonia.


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## Mykuhl

Yah, it looks you are almost done, been a long wait. Take a look a the sensor tomorrow morning see at what level it is reading, and again at night if it is not at the safe level in the morning.


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## woopderson

Just checked the toxic ammonia (6:30am) and it reads <0.02ppm. Woooo!


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## pyrrolin

so ammonia is cycled, nitrites are 0,

all you have to do is wc to get your nitrates down to 10 to 20 and you can put in your stock


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## Mykuhl

Processed in less than 8 hours....awesome! Looks like you are ready.


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## woopderson

Didn't get a chance to test yesterday.
Saturday morning results:

ph: 6.0
nitrtie: 0
nitrate: 40 ppm
ammonia: 1 ppm

Odd that the total ammonia didn't move. i did a 20% wc and removed the floss. I will dose to 4ppm. Next update will be Sunday night Have a great weekend!


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## woopderson

Hope everyone had a great weekend.

Sunday's tests:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40ppm
Ammonia: 1.5ppm
Toxic ammonia : <0.02 = safe

I did a 20% wc and dosed ammonia back up to 4ppm. Rollin right along! I get my shrimp on Thursday, and I plant to do a big wc the day before.

Here is a fts I just took


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## Mykuhl

Everything looks good. You are ready to go! Been a long wait. What type of shrimp are you picking up on thursday?


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## woopderson

So glad that it is finally coming together. I will be getting some A/S grade Crystal Red shrimp.


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## pyrrolin

You should do two water changes, if your nitrates are 40 and you do a 50 percent wc, nitrates would then be 20 in theory. if you do a 50 percent now to bring it down to 20 and then another wed, you should be around 10 to 15 which is a good level


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## woopderson

Just completed one 50% water change. Will do another tomorrow, and then Wednesday I will test to see how things are. Going to do the full battery of tests each day just to track things. I want to make sure things are perfect for when the shrimps get here on Thursday. Excited but nervous, haha.

I will report back here once I have tested this evening. Just giving the water a chance to circulate and mix.


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## Mykuhl

Remember to keep dosing ammonia until a day before you put your stock in. You don't want to leave your bacteria without a food source for too long or they will start dieng off. Test your water 24 hours before you put your livestock in an do an appropriate sized water change to bring your nitrate level to under 20ppm. Do keep in mind that if you do a large water change(20%+) that you will need to let the water aerate for a few hours before you put your shrimp in. Shrimp are sensitive to the build up of gases and ph change of unaerated water.


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## woopderson

Right, good call Mykuhl. So here are the results for Monday after 50% (probably a touch more)

Ph: 6.0
Nitrtite: 0
Nitrate: 10ppm
Ammonia: 0.5ppm

Dosed ammonia to 2.5ppm. 

Because of the nitrate level reduction, I will test tonight, and then wc appropriately. May just need to do 20% today and 20% tomorrow.


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## pyrrolin

probably just need a good wc wed, dose ammonia after wc and stock the tank thurs


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## woopderson

Righty o, then a 50% tomorrow! No wcs today.

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15ppm
Ammonia: 1ppm
Toxic ammonia: safe

Dosing ammonia to 2 ppm.

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## woopderson

Oh man, I think I have a shrimp-brain issue. Last night I had a dream about acclimating my shrimp. lol......


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## pyrrolin

Just one more day left now


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## woopderson

Yessir! So excited, and nervous. It has been a lot of work to get to this point.


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## pyrrolin

Nothing to worry about. You did your research, got some help and cycled the tank. Just be sure not to add too many fish at a time after the first batch and keep an eye on levels for a few days after adding fish.

Keep track of nitrate levels and wc to know how often and how much you need to do to keep nitrates at a good level. In some cases nitrates just don't go up in some tanks, I have had this when lower stocked. You should still do at least monthly wc in this case just to freshen up things, add minerals that are found in tap water and keep things going smooth.


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## woopderson

Yeah only 10 CRS will be going in tomorrow, so nothing too crazy. It could very well be that things stabilize after I put the shrimp in, as I won't be dosing anymore. Then in about 2 weeks I will be grabbing my Thai Micro Crabs. I may get the Oto cats prior to so that they produce some ammonia for the bacteria.


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## bob123

From past experience I have found that if you wait a few months before adding otto cats that the survival rate of the cats is much higher. I think this is because there is some algae growing for the cats to feed on, just my opinion.


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## pyrrolin

I would wait at least a month for the Ottos personally


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## woopderson

Woah, didn't realize that! I will hold off on the ottos.

Water change time!!


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## Mykuhl

Lol! Welcome to the obsession.....I mean hobby 


woopderson said:


> Oh man, I think I have a shrimp-brain issue. Last night I had a dream about acclimating my shrimp. lol......


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## Mykuhl

10 CRS in that sized planted tank with the level you have it cycled will be virtually no bioload, you could put in 10 times that and be fine. Do keep in mind that since your tank is currently cycled to a pretty high bioload that if you stock that lightly and don't add your full bioload very soon(If you are planning to add a lot more) that your bacteria will eventually die off to the level of food source they have. I would advise adding the rest of your bioload very quickly if you are planning to have a lot more. If you don't plan to have a lot more and want
want to add them in stages you will be fine doing it that way also.


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## woopderson

Hmm...so you think I should add some more shrimp? The plan is to let them breed, but perhaps I should procure another 10?


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## Mykuhl

I think you should add your full planned bioload in one go if you can. I think even the otocats should be fine. You did mention you have a fair bit of brown algae right?


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## woopderson

Sadly I can't quite afford to purchase over 100 CRS at this time 

I do have some brown algae, not as much as I said before. I think some of the excess nutrients have been removed through water changes.



Mykuhl said:


> I think you should add your full planned bioload in one go if you can. I think even the otocats should be fine. You did mention you have a fair bit of brown algae right?


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## pyrrolin

if you ware wanting 20 shrimp now, you can go ahead and get 20 now. You can stock the tank a fair bit right now if you do it while the bio load is high from the ammonia dosing


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## woopderson

Right, so after letting things sit for a few hours here are the results:

Ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
Toxic ammonia: safe
Kh: 2
Gh: 3

Looking good for tomorrow's new tank members


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## pyrrolin

nice to see the non toxic ammonia going down


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## woopderson

For sure! It seems that once it gets to sub 1ppm it goes very slowly, but that is alright.


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## fyns

Its Thursday. Where are the pics of the shrimps?


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## woopderson

Drip drip drip


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## Mykuhl

Nice. It looks like you ended up getting 20 of them.

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## woopderson

Yep, that is right!

Well folks, it has been a long and bumpy road to get here. I want to thank each and every one of you for all your help and guidance. Here on out random updates will happen for this tank in the invert section.

Attached are some pics of the shrimp. They look incredible, and set to work immediately.

P.s. keep your eyes open for my 8g cube, coming soon. I have attached the hardscape mockup.

Thank you, all!


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## Mykuhl

Congrats on finally stocking your tank! The shrimp look nice and I am sure they will be happy in your set up. Look forward to seeing them breed for you, and to see the 8 gallon set up with more shrimp. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.


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## pyrrolin

I would like to see a full tank shot to see your scape so far. That 8 gallon looks interesting so far. MTS has started


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## woopderson

Hah, oh the MTS has very much started! But for now I will be watching this tank like a hawk. I never did include some pics of the setup very early on. I painted the stand and the canopy myself. As well as made a couple mods thanks to handles and a jig saw. The first wet fts is the day I set it up. The last fts is from today. 

P.s. seafoam green canopy wooooooo


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## pyrrolin

Needs something in the middle, not sure if plant, rock, wood or what.


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## woopderson

Yeah I agree, but I also plan to use a petree dish for feeding in that area. 

I cam home to three dead shrimp today, pretty bummed about that. The others are happy and running around. I checked the params:

Ph: 6.2
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10
Ammonia: 0

I drip acclimated them for an hour, so I'm not sure what went wrong. Going to get a TDS pen soon to keep track of that.


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## pyrrolin

sometimes fish just do not like to be moved or they are too weak. Think of it as removing the weaker shrimp to leave the rest as stronger breeders.


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## woopderson

Yeah I think so. All other shrimp seem ok, although I can't find them because of all the plants I have!

Ammonia read as 0.25, so I think my substrate is _still_ leeching. I don't know if I will use it again. All other readings are good.


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## woopderson

Update: shrimp count is still ok. No losses since. Three seem to be swimming laps of the tank. One cheeky bugger climbed into my hob via the flow deflector I made!


----------



## pyrrolin

good stuff, so it was just a few weak ones then


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## woopderson

Yeah thatnis my hope. Have also had what looks like at least two of them molt!


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## Mykuhl

pyrrolin said:


> sometimes fish just do not like to be moved or they are too weak. Think of it as removing the weaker shrimp to leave the rest as stronger breeders.


Yah, that's probably all it is. Its good that the others seem fine. When are you getting you micro crabs?


----------



## woopderson

Not sure yet on the micro crabs. I may wait it out and get more CRS for now. I find myself liking them more and more!

Shrimp are all still doing goofy shrimp things. Hoping to borrow a good camera from my sister soon, and will throw up some macro photos


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## creature55

If the shrimp are swimming around all crazy, in my experience it's either really good or really bad. It can either be that there is something they really don't like in the water (like ammonia) and they are swimming to "escape" or it can be that it is males swimming to find a female that has moulted and is ready to be mated. The fact that one tried to get into the HOB might be a bad sign as I've mostly seen this when my shrimp are distressed (but also a few times when there was nothing wrong!). If you know to tell the difference between the sexes, I would try to see if it is only males swimming or if it's males and females. If it's only males then you're in luck! Berried shrimp to come 

Also, not sure how long you've been cycling the amazonia, but mine leeched ammonia for at least 6 weeks!


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## woopderson

Yeah I did have a couple molts. I think it is mostly males, aside from one female. Watching the water closely to see what happens. Here's hoping we get some berried ladies. 

I had been cycling amazonia for 8.5 weeks, and just added shrimp last week. The cycle drove me bonkers!!!


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## creature55

I feel your pain haha I was soooo impatient to get my first shrimp in. 

I found that Seachem Stability did next to nothing in speeding up the cycle. I was using that too. Eventually I shelled out for those really concentrated tubes of bacteria (Biodigest) that ShrimpFever sells and I think it made a difference. I've heard of one guy that cycled ADA amazonia in something like two weeks just by doing big water changes and adding a lot of Biodigest/StartUp.


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## woopderson

Seachem didn't really do much for me, and I also used one of the BioDigest bottles right at the start. I may do a 10% wc to see if that calms the swimmers down a bit. One was still swimming about this morning, but ammonia read 0.


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## creature55

Any berried females? If they were swimming from the hormones then the female would for sure have been berried now 

Also, have you checked your TDS? Sorry if this has already been answered...I haven't actually read all 21 pages of this thread haha


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## woopderson

Not that I see yet. Due to the plants it is a bit hard to see. These shrimp are still juvies, though. How regularly do shrimp molt?

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk


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## pyrrolin

TDS shouldn't be a problem, lots of water changes were done and its 21 pages, not 11. Very good thread though.


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## creature55

I'm not actually sure exactly how often they moult, but it is definitely more often in young shrimp than older shrimp. They can also be induced to moult by a change in water parameters (which is why you often see moults in the first few days after a water change).

Oops, you're right pyrrolin! 21 pages, not 11 haha. Changed it


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## woopderson

Alas I don't have a tds pen. I will be getting one, as shrimp do need a certain tds. Will probably do my small wc later tonight.

I bought a shrimp food called Snowflake. It is messy, but the shrimp love it. Im only feeding every 48 hours at this time, just letting them pick away. I also gave a piece of algae wafer yesterday. They went a bit bananas for It!

I need to get a petrie dish so that I can remove the left overs easily.


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## woopderson

Today when I woke up I noticed the shrimp where hanging out near the bubble stream of my sponge filter. I'm going to increase the flow on my Hob as well, in hopes to further oxygenate the water. 

Ammonia read 0.25, so I put it a bit of prime, and will do that 10% wc tonight. Looks like the Amazonia is still leaching!


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## creature55

Do you normally use tap water and treat with Prime? Because Prime will cause a false reading of 0.25ppm for ammonia. If you are strictly using remineralized RO then the false reading shouldn't be an issue and you are picking up real ammonia on the test. I'm guessing you don't regularly use prime though since I take it you've been getting 0's on your ammonia tests lately.

If it's still leeching ammonia, that's really crazy! Can't make sense of it


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## woopderson

Yeah I have an RO/DI filter that I use for all my water. If you notice toward the tail end of my cycle, my bacteria seemed to have trouble with the last 0.5ppm. It would crush the 4ppm down to 2ppm in a day. Then 2ppm to 1ppm the next. After that it would be a snail's crawl down. I think that may be a result of the ammonia leaching from the substrate.

The only time I used prime was when I noticed the reading of 0.25ppm after it being 0 the day before. I feel like the shrimp behaved accordingly, as they were hanging around the top of the bubble stream of my sponge. I will also crank up the flow on my HOB to help alleviate this.

For my Fluval 7.9G, I will be doing an Amazonia experiment. I intend on keeping neos in it, but the Amazonia seems to keep the ph very low in my 26g (6.0 or less). During the cycle on the 7.9, I will try doing more water changes in order to bring up the ph. My goal is to hit around 6.6 or so. I intend for that cycle to go even longer than this one did. Plants will be simple, mostly mosses and such. I'm going to start that tank either tonight or tomorrow.


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## creature55

Oh I see. Yes, I've found that the last little bit of ammonia was a challenge for me to get rid of too. I did HUGE (90%) water changes for the first while and then still did a lot of 50% WCs after that. Lots of Seachem Stability (but don't know if it helped) and also the BioDigest toward the end. I cycled with tap water though...I wonder how much of a difference that makes? I've read that below a certain pH (something like 5.5?), that bacteria will have a really hard time establishing so maybe with the RO water, the pH was just way too low so the cycle took forever. 

Can I ask why you plan to use ADA amazonia in the new tank? I would recommend against it. The neos don't like the low pH and and also don't like the low KH that comes with amazonia. It would just be wasting an expensive soil, in my opinion, especially if you don't plan to plant heavily. I would go with something more neutral for neos


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## woopderson

I had done a number of 20% changes and 3x50% changes, but it looks like it may still need a bit more. I am cautious now though, as I don't want to stress the shrimp.

I was going to use the Amazonia because I had it, just for fun. I know the neos like more neutral water conditions, but I wanted to see if I could make it work for the neos. My backup plan was to go with a bag of the Fluval shrimp stratum or their plant stratum.


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## creature55

Yup, good call to be really cautious with water changes now that there are shrimp in there! And always remember to drip  I do 20% water changes semi-regularly now without any problem. 

I actually did the exact same thing with my 10g neo tank haha. Just used some leftover amazonia since I always read that neos were pretty versatile and can adapt to a wide range of parameters. For whatever reason though, they've never done very well and I blamed the soil (though there may have been other factors at play). I eventually swapped out most of the amazonia for a neutral substrate and it seemed to help a little, though I am still battling bacterial infections in that tank and definitely no breeding going on!


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## woopderson

Drip might be a bit tricky, as my inquisitive kittens have their own ideas of what is a play thing and what isn't. 

I'm going to give my amazonia experiment a go, just for fun. There won't be any shrimp in it until I can get the tank to the appropriate parameters. I'm in no rush, as I have the 26g to keep me busy. 

Hopefully due to the size, the 7.9 will progress faster. But because I am using RO it may actually around the same amount of time, if not longer.


Back on topic, the CRS are still active and busy doing shrimp things. I will post an update tonight post-wc.


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## creature55

Yeahhh, I always have to shut my cat out of wherever I am dripping haha. I feel ya. 

Everything looking okay now?


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## woopderson

I took a sneaky look at the shrimp this morning. My cat woke me up at 5am, so while the lights were off I shone a small flashlight into the tank. All the shrimp seem good and content.


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## woopderson

So I added some Seachem Flourish (smaller dosage than recommended). The shrimp certainly didn't like that. Five were looking to climb out.

Any suggestions on shrimp friendly ferts?

Also picked up a Hygrophil and a Red Lotus from Finatics. I think they really help balance the tank! I know the plants didn't cause this because I added them around 3pm, and I dosed the fert at 9:30pm.

UPDATE: 12:30am the shrimp are fine and back to doing regular shrimp things


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## creature55

I have been recommended not to dose anything in shrimp tanks (even though can get away with it) just as a precaution. So I stopped dosing everything and moved any really needy plants out of the one tank. The ones I've left in are still doing okay with no dosing, but man trying to control the algae without excel or CO2 is frustrating!

Before I became a shrimp puritan, I was dosing powdered macros, tiny amounts of Flourish Trace, and Excel. The shrimp actually seemed to be fine, but I wanted to really give them the best environment for breeding.


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## woopderson

Yeah I think I will dose an ultra small amount and we shall see how things go.


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## Scotmando

CAUTION: Some imported plants available at your LFS may be treated with pesticides before they can enter the country, which can be harmful to invertebrates such as shrimps.

You can always ask at the LFS or quarantine your plants before introducing into a shrimp tank.


woopderson said:


> So I added some Seachem Flourish (smaller dosage than recommended). The shrimp certainly didn't like that. Five were looking to climb out.
> 
> Any suggestions on shrimp friendly ferts?
> 
> Also picked up a Hygrophil and a Red Lotus from Finatics. I think they really help balance the tank! I know the plants didn't cause this because I added them around 3pm, and I dosed the fert at 9:30pm.
> 
> UPDATE: 12:30am the shrimp are fine and back to doing regular shrimp things
> 
> View attachment 64049
> View attachment 64057
> View attachment 64065


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## woopderson

Thanks for the heads up! 

I made sure to give them a good rinse prior to planting.


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