# Test results for 20G Long Tank



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Hi All,

After doing some frequent testing over the last week since I introduced a pressurized CO2 system, I am a little surprised with the numbers.

First off I test my tapwater once a month at the source where I fill my buckets. I then test the bucket water 30 min. after adding Nutrafin Water Conditioner. I then test it 5 days after, usually right before it goes into the tank at water changes. I test the water prior to the water change and about 1-2 days after.

These are my results:
Tap Water
pH-7.4, Ammonia-0.25ppm, Nitrite-0 ppm, Nitrate-0 ppm, GH-143 ppm, KH-90 ppm

Bucket water @ 5 days
pH-7.4, Ammonia-0.25ppm, Nitrite-0 ppm, Nitrate-0 ppm, GH-161 ppm, KH-99 ppm

Tank 2 days _edit: before_ water change and 5 days after addition of CO2
pH-7.4, Ammonia-0.25ppm, Nitrite-5.0 ppm, Nitrate-20 ppm, GH-269 ppm, KH-152 ppm, CO2-30 ppm

The first thing I have noticed is the lack of any change to my tap water with the addition of the water conditioner. I suppose it is getting rid of the chlorine in the water, but how would I know this. Should the removal of the chlorine not affect GH?

Secondly, my nitrites have been spiking just before I'm ready to do a water change and once I do a 10% water change, it drops back to 0.25 ppm. All of my fish, plants and invertebrates look healthy moving around like normal, perfect appetites and plants are striving very well.

I'm just wondering if anyone has noticed no change after adding water conditioner and if the nitrite spike just before a water change is anything to be alarmed about?

Thanks in advance!
-Andrew


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

so nitriate is 5.0 before water change and then its down to .25 after just a 10 percent water change?

That doesnt make sense at all, 10 percent water change should change it from 5.0 to 4.5. I hope it was a typo and you ment .5 not 5.0.

It sounds like you are still cycling your tank?


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

andrewdingemans said:


> The first thing I have noticed is the lack of any change to my tap water with the addition of the water conditioner. I suppose it is getting rid of the chlorine in the water, but how would I know this. Should the removal of the chlorine not affect GH?


You have to believe the water conditioner is working. There are chlorine test kits that are out there, but I feel they are not necessary.

Chloramines are a bigger problem in Toronto water, but again, a good water conditioner will take care of them.

As to explain for your increase in GH, it could just be a titration error. I notice a 1 degree difference only.



andrewdingemans said:


> Secondly, my nitrites have been spiking just before I'm ready to do a water change and once I do a 10% water change, it drops back to 0.25 ppm. All of my fish, plants and invertebrates look healthy moving around like normal, perfect appetites and plants are striving very well.


You say that your aquarium tested for 5.0 ppm of nitrites 2 days after a water change; I do not see any testing of the aquarium prior to a water change, so where is this spike in nitrites that you are speaking of?

As pyrrolin mentioned, your aquarium still seems to be cycling.

5.0 ppm of nitrites is extremely toxic, so I doubt this is correct (check your test kits, make sure the instructions are followed exactly, all reagents are well agitated, etc).


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> so nitriate is 5.0 before water change and then its down to .25 after just a 10 percent water change?
> 
> That doesnt make sense at all, 10 percent water change should change it from 5.0 to 4.5. I hope it was a typo and you ment .5 not 5.0.
> 
> It sounds like you are still cycling your tank?





Darkblade48 said:


> You have to believe the water conditioner is working. There are chlorine test kits that are out there, but I feel they are not necessary.
> 
> Chloramines are a bigger problem in Toronto water, but again, a good water conditioner will take care of them.
> 
> ...


Sorry, that's supposed to say 2 days before water change, not after.

The tank isn't still cycling, it's been going for about a year now. And the 5.0 is not a typo unfortunately. When I get numbers like that I always re-test it incase it was an error I made during the test. both tests gave the same number.

Is it possible that my test kit has just gotten old? I've had it for about a year. I will be doing another test tonight as the water was changed this weekend. what kind of reactions in the tank should I be looking for if the ammonia is as high as the test is telling me? I'm really hoping it's me screwing something up or-else I am guessing I will lose some of my fish 

Could the CO2 be affecting anything?


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

It is amazing how easy it is to keep ammonia and nitrites in chech once you are cycled. I can do a 50 percent water change and not worry about BB as my tanks are very well established.

two nights ago I set up a 10 gallon half full, used a couple gallons from an established tank and the rest was tap. I put in the two fish that I wanted to breed, put in an air stone and a plant and heater.

After a full day they didnt hadn't bred and I was getting worried about ammonia so I did a test and saw traces. I quicly took a spare filter from another tank and popped it in the 10 gallon and half a day later, no ammonia or nitrites.

Its amazing what a fully cycled filter can do.

This evening I'll take the filter off again just in case they finally breed, if they haven't by tomorrow, then I'll move the fish out.

It is so hard to tell sexes with bloodfin tetra, I was hoping the one I bought was a male but it may not be. I have a female that is so full of eggs that she looks like a baloon molly. I just want her to drop the eggs at least, firtilized would be a nice bonus.

Getting already cycled media is the best thing you can do when setting up a new tank.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> It is amazing how easy it is to keep ammonia and nitrites in chech once you are cycled. I can do a 50 percent water change and not worry about BB as my tanks are very well established.
> 
> two nights ago I set up a 10 gallon half full, used a couple gallons from an established tank and the rest was tap. I put in the two fish that I wanted to breed, put in an air stone and a plant and heater.
> 
> ...


I fully agree. That is exactly what I did to this tank a year ago when it was cycling, I transferred the sponge and ceramic media plus half of the substrate from my 10 gallon HOB to get it cycled. I let it cycle for 6 weeks before adding fish and it has been stable for the last year until this past week.

I am thinking of buying another nitrite test kit if I get the same results after testing tonight.

What could cause nitrite spikes. from what I understand nitrites come from ammonia, but my ammonia levels have been very stable and I have seen no change in it at all.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Have you used any medications lately?

Wondering if you did something that could kill off some BB. This is assuming your test kit is fine.

Have there been any changes lately that could possibly mess things up?

Petsmart and other LFS will test your water for free, maybe do this to double check your test kit.

There seems to be a problem somewhere, hopefully its the test kit and not the tank.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Just had a thought, you are new to C02 right? well, co2 can lower ph, which is normal and usually not a problem.

I believe too much c02 can make the oxygen go down, the BB needs oxygen to work well. Maybe this is the problem?


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

pyrrolin said:


> Just had a thought, you are new to C02 right? well, co2 can lower ph, which is normal and usually not a problem.
> 
> I believe too much c02 can make the oxygen go down, the BB needs oxygen to work well. Maybe this is the problem?


Injecting CO2 will not reduce/drive oxygen out of the water.

Unless a large amount of CO2 is being injected to lower the pH significantly, I don't think it would be causing a problem. I assume a drop checker with a 4 dkH reference solution is being used to determine that CO2 levels are 30 ppm.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> Just had a thought, you are new to C02 right? well, co2 can lower ph, which is normal and usually not a problem.
> 
> I believe too much c02 can make the oxygen go down, the BB needs oxygen to work well. Maybe this is the problem?





Darkblade48 said:


> Injecting CO2 will not reduce/drive oxygen out of the water.
> 
> Unless a large amount of CO2 is being injected to lower the pH significantly, I don't think it would be causing a problem. I assume a drop checker with a 4 dkH reference solution is being used to determine that CO2 levels are 30 ppm.


The only thing different that I have done recently is change the root tabs that I have been using. I've gone from API to Seachem Flourish one.

I don't think the CO2 is the problem. If I was injecting too much my fish would certainly be gasping for air. They seem to like to play in the fine mist with no problem. The drop checker is reading a blue green today as I have turned it down to 1 bps from 2. The solenoid turns it off at night and i have 2 air-stones pumping oxygen into the tank at night. Plus my pH with the addition of food, water conditioner, letting it be exposed in a bucket for a week with an airstone it always reads 7.4 steady. The only time it moved was when I was on vacation for 4 weeks and wasn't able to trust anyone enough to do a water change. I added a secong HOB then. Could that possibly be now coming to haunt me. Got back about 3 weeks ago.

I haven't been able to get home yet so I will surely test and let you all know what I find. I may take a sample of water to big al's in scarborough tomorrow, they tested my water after I finished cycling to make sure I was ready.

Fingers crossed it's just a testing error.

Thanks all for helping me to try and pinpoint the problem! Noob in the house


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

ok, with new info I have one possible theory, but not sure how likely it is

with a HOB being added, this gives BB more area to populate. I assume the BB would move some from the old filter to the HOB, this would increase the BB in the HOB and decrease the BB in the old filter.

So, you get home, remove the HOB and suddenly there is less BB in the system causing a mini cycle.

I don't think this theory is likely unless the HOB's ability to hold BB was significant compared to the main filter.

Also, if the main filter was fully cycled, it should be able to bounce back within a few days to make up for the loss of the HOB without any problems.

The lack of water changes should only have had an effect on nitrates which shouldnt cause these problems.

So, I recommend testing with another test kit to rule that out as it sounds like everything should be perfectly stable.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Sorry I didn't clarify. I haven't removed anything, both filters are there.

Testing results show very minor/no changes.
pH-*7.3*, Ammonia-0.25ppm, Nitrite-5.0 ppm, Nitrate-20 ppm, GH-*251 ppm*, KH-152 ppm, CO2-N/A (off for the night)

I am at the point where I need to replace the central feature in my tank with 2 pieces of driftwood that have been soaking for the last week. I'm afraid to do the change until I find the cause of the nitrite level being so high.

Can it for any reason be the new API tabs that are causing the higher levels of nitrite? I made a list of everything that has changed since 1 week before I have been getting the high nitrite levels. How long until I see it affecting the fish? How will it affect the fish?

The next step is what you guys have suggested, getting it tested elsewhere or trying a different kit. I will first try a Big Al's tomorrow, sometimes they use the dip sticks so not sure how realistic those tests will be.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

whatever test they use, it will tell you something, if they show nitrites of lets say 3 or 4, then you can be pretty sure that nitrites are actually high, if they show 0 nitrites, then id question your kit and buy a new tester.

Hold off on the new stuff for the tank for now

make sure you clean your tubes very well before testing. I actually use s siringe to get water out of the tank to put in the test tube instead of dipping the tube in the tank, just in case there is some chemicals on the tube still, also easier to get right amount.

API nitrite test is 5 drops, light blue is a 0 reading, just in case you are making a mistake there somehow.

So, fish all seem happy and healthy, no deaths?

Umm, another stretch, but a possibility, what is your bio media? how old is it? Maybe its so old that it is clogged with old dead bacteria and new bacteria can't get into it?

this whole thing is a real head scratcher and im getting really curious of what the problem is.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

ok, what size tank, how is it stocked, what is your filter exactly, can you post a pic of the tank? Have many of the fish grown much in the last few months?

what is your substrate, how planted is it?

We are missing something, hopefully with more info someone can figure it out.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> whatever test they use, it will tell you something, if they show nitrites of lets say 3 or 4, then you can be pretty sure that nitrites are actually high, if they show 0 nitrites, then id question your kit and buy a new tester.
> 
> Hold off on the new stuff for the tank for now
> 
> ...


All of the tubes are cleaned and dried properly (the same way I have always done it) I used to get the light blue a few weeks ago, that's why when it was a deep purple it had me freaking out because I hadn't seen that color for many many many months since I was cycling. While I was cycling the purple was actually darker than the 5.0 ppm.

Fish are all happy, no losses to date. I did a head count when I got home, all I can't find is one shrimp and one panda cory, but they must be hiding under the center feature as all the lights are off and I don't want to turn them on to startle them.

The AquaClear sponge I have not changed but has been rinsed 3 times so far (once every 9-10 weeks) carbon has been replaced once every 2 months and it doesn't have any ceramic media in it. The larger Fluval HOB has new sponge, new carbon and has the ceramic media from the AquaClear unit all of which I had started about 6-7 weeks ago.

Is it possible the new HOB is causing it's own cycle to occur even though the AquaClear has already created this process?

This has my curiosity on the edge of it's seat. Not that I want them to, but my fish seem to be living through quite intense conditions. I guess that could relate to our great Lake Ontario, you _could_ survive in it, but how long after you would survive without deficiency is the question.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Ok, all you did is move the bio media from one filter to another, that might make a slight dif in the short term but not after that long

what size tank?

what AC filter?


It has to be your test kit, I just don't get it.

Even if you replaced all the media on the same day, there should be enough BB on the glass, decor, substrate, plants and so on for the tank to correct itself in a week or so with the tank being there for a year.

You don't over clean do you? like taking replacing all media at the same time, taking out decor and cleaning it, cleaning gravel really well. All of this on the same day?

Im a little crazy, I love driving myself nuts trying to figure these things out.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> ok, what size tank, how is it stocked, what is your filter exactly, can you post a pic of the tank? Have many of the fish grown much in the last few months?
> 
> what is your substrate, how planted is it?
> 
> We are missing something, hopefully with more info someone can figure it out.


I guess I should have started with those basics. Here goes:

-20 L long tank: 30"x12"x12"
-Fluval 100w heater placed in back left corner
-AquaClear 30 (10-30 Gal) 150Gal/hr (I'm guessing closer to 100) placed on left side
-Fluval C3 (20-50 Gal) 153 Gal/hr placed on right side
-Some kind of natural substrate mixed with API First Layer as I thought it would be a good way to prep the substrate for the coming plants.
-Generic plastic ornament from Petsmart (I thought it was a good long-term solution)
-Fluval 88g CO2 kit with bubble counter and ceramic diffuser, Red Sea drop checker got as a deal for buying the Fluval kit.
-Tetra Whisper Air pump with 2 airstones
-Plants: Anubias Barteri (has doubled in size since purchase about 7 months ago)
Cabomba Caroliniana (has recently been removed)
Vallisneria Spiralis (2 'baskets' purchased at 6" length, has grown to 10+ in the last 2 weeks)
Vallisneria Americana (4 'baskets' purchased at 12" length, no height growth, but 6-7 new root sprouts have started to grow)
Sunset Hygro (Hygrophila polysperma) (2 stem bunches purchased at 5-6" length, it has tripled in size width and length in the last 2 weeks)
Micro Sword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) (3 'baskets' purchased, very little to no growth noticed in last 3 weeks)

-Fish: 4 Albino Corydoras, 4 Peppered Corydoras, 3 Green Corydoras, 3 Panda Corydoras, 4 Otocinclus Affinis, 2 Red Endler Guppies, 4 yellow Micariff Guppies, 3 Tequila Sunrise Guppies, 1 Blonde Guppy, 1 Pingu (dwarf) Blue Guppy, 1 Diamond Blue Guppy, 1 Black Cobra Guppy, 5 Amano shrimp, 4 Assassin snail and what looks like 40-50 pond snails.

Lighting system:
18W 10,000K T5, 18W Pink Colormax T5, 18W 6,700K T5, 24W Pink Colormax T5HO, 24W 6,000k T5HO, 2-5W Blue moonlights. Entire system is on a slew of timers to re-create the ceridian cycle.

Majority of the fishes have shown a bit of growth. Only the dwarf blue and cobra guppy have stayed relatively small (apparently thats how their breed is, as I was told by the supplier) but they look healthy. All the fish and invertebrates show good apetite, the cory's i find like to chase eachother around and some like to glide up and down the glass time to time. The guppies all like to swim around the central feature and now in and amongst the freshly trimmed anubias. No diseases are apparent.

The attached photos are the only ones I have access to right now, the rest are at work and alas, work doesn't give access to photobucket. Sorry for the Blackberry quality photos.

These were taken Dec 1-2012. The Hygro on the furthest left of the tank is twice the size that is shown, all of the stems have reached the surface and is VERY bushy. The Cabomba on the right is no longer in the tank, it visually wasn't pleasing me. The Spiral Vals however have filled in the right of the tank.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> Ok, all you did is move the bio media from one filter to another, that might make a slight dif in the short term but not after that long
> 
> what size tank?
> 
> ...


The cleaning no, when media is replaced I don't replace any at the same time, and when the substrate is heavily cleaned, nothing else is. I have never cleaned the decor as I'm afraid I will scrub through the paint. I learned the hard way with my 10 gallon and the many Fluval tanks I have owned about media changes and cleaning gravel and decor etc.

I may have overdone it with my fish count, but I like to push the boundaries, I had 8 of the guppies and 8 otto's in my 10 gallon a year ago before they migrated to the current 20 long.

Thanks so much for racking your brain as much as I am, I really appreciate the help.

I think what I might do for now is dose with some stress-zyme (would that couse the bio process to begin again? although the product says to dose 5ml/week to keep proper bio levels) and do a water change just incase my tests are correct, I don't want to poison my fish.


----------



## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

If the fish seem fine, any damage if the nitrate is high is already done, i wouldnt make any changes till you resolve this, eliminate variables as opposed to adding more.

Only two options I can see at this point:
A- Invalid test results either through methodology of testing or bad reagents.

B- fatally? excess N in the tank.

The fact that your fish seem fine makes me suspect either the test-kit, or your methodology as the prime suspect. If the nitrite was so high you'd expect to see effects on the fish.

The indicated drop in level via a small waterchange doesnt make sense. The math doesnt work. Another reason to suspect the testkit/methodology.

Additionally in an established tank, you would expect to see a corresponding nitrate spike, as the nitrite was converted.

The only other slight possible thing i can think of is if you added a lot of the livestock at once youd see a lag in the time it would take the biologicals to catch up, but as stated above unlikely.

How old is your test kit? What is the brand? I've found that the api master set has been best for me.

Finally i noted you said you have rinsed your sponges - in what? Tap water? Drained tank water? S.o.p. should be to rinse the sponge in tankwater, so as not to risk die-off from chlorine(chloramine) in tapwater. Still shouldnt have an effect.

If you are close to east york, i'd be willing to pop over with my test kit and see if we cant get it squared away.

Keep us posted.


----------



## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

Just saw your in markham... I'll pm with details


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

The tank is a little over stocked, but that shouldn't be a problem, well planted, well filtered, just over all well cared for.

You seem to be doing everything right

It has to be the test kit

Can't wait to see the results of a different test kit


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

OK, so this has been bothering me and I think the tank decided to cycle itself again. I went home at lunch still scratching my heat. Tested for the 3 main ones only. Ammonia 0.25 ppm, Nitrite color is _2.0 ppm_ and Nitrate has gone up to 80 ppm. This makes me feel even better now that I see the Nitrite going down and the Nitrates finally going up. If nitrates are in the 80-160 ppm range should I do water changes or do you think the plants will take care of it. What caused the new cycle still boggles my mind. The media is always rinsed in water that i've syphoned out during the water change process. Even new media gets rinsed in syphoned tank water


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

nitrates are too high, I would do a water change. Plants can only do so much so fast

Do you have kids? My son once put a bottle of gripe water in his tank, luckily it only killed 1 fish, I had to tear down and setup again really fast

so another test gave you these new results? If so, something caused a while new cycle and you are damn lucky your fish are alive still.


----------



## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

That makes more sense showing your bioloicals converting to nitrate. Still think your testkit is suspect.

If your levels are that high i'd do an immediate 30-50% wc, then a large dose of prime, or equivalent to help detoxify nitrite, then re check levels, if nitrite is still high, do a series of 10-25% with a bit of time between them until your nitrate/trate reads better.

Ideally in a planted tank your nitrite should be zero or as close to as possible, and keep your nitrate under 30ppm

I'd still verify your testkit with another.
At this point im going with something killed the filter off. Also iirc there really is no need for the activated carbon media.
The carbon will adsorb nutrients that are bio-avail to the plants.

Hopefully things will stabilize for you now, and once you get levels under control all will be good.

Any chance youve been overfeeding?

Cheers.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

many people who use AC filters replace the carbon with more bio media

I stll want to see the results from another test kit


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

First, I tested when I got home a few hours ago, (BTW I use the API Master kit and I've had it for about a year now) and it still gives me 2.0 ppm (made a mistake in the previous post and thought it was 4.0 ppm) Thats the good news, I tested the water in my bucket and it shows 0 ppm, and I go back to my tapwater and also 0 ppm. 

Now I bought these test strip things at the petsmart near my house and it is giving me a result of 0.5 ppm. In the API test booklet it says all other test will give a result 3 times less the true amount. 

Next....what I think the root of the problem. I keep a bucket under my basement sink with all my tank cleaning stuff. Turns out the sponge that I use for cleaning off the slime and grime from the HOB intake tubes, my mom used to wash the kitchen sink with detergent.

I nearly lost my mind when she told me this. Lets just say that if I lost fish due to her mistake she was going to have to buy me my dream 180Gal Starfire tank. I've had almost all of my fish for a year and have put alot of work into keeping them healthy.

Anyway I am doing a water change tonight and will do another test. If it was at 5.0 and a 50% is done what should it go to? What if at 2.0, and at .5? should they theoretically be half?

I just had my brother pick me up the nutrafin nitrite test kit but he tells me it only goes up to 3.3 ppm?


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> nitrates are too high, I would do a water change. Plants can only do so much so fast
> 
> Do you have kids? My son once put a bottle of gripe water in his tank, luckily it only killed 1 fish, I had to tear down and setup again really fast
> 
> so another test gave you these new results? If so, something caused a while new cycle and you are damn lucky your fish are alive still.





pyrrolin said:


> many people who use AC filters replace the carbon with more bio media
> 
> I stll want to see the results from another test kit


No kids, but as you can see from my above post, mischievous parents can also be the cause. I am so glad that all of my fish are still fine.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Well, at least we can be pretty sure that we now know the root cause of the problem.

So that caused the bacteria die off and recycling.

It sounds like the tank is almost recycled.

so you tested tap water with the old kit and it showed 0? if so, your test kit is probably fine, and the test strip showed nitrites, not as accurate, but it did show nitrites so Im going to assume your old kit is still good.

Make sure you add stress zyme or whatever bio booster you use as if it was a new tank to help make sure the BB gets going faster

and show this to your mother "NEVER EVER use his aquarium supplies for anything! This one mistake almost cost him everything! To show you are sorry, you should buy him a nice new 90 gallon setup for christmas. He will be able to tell you exactly what parts to buy" - rant off.

Now you can fix things, and hopefully fast enough that you dont have losses.

oh, in theory, if you do 50 percent wc, the nitrite should go from 5.0 to around 2.5 to 3.0. Also, having carbon may have saved your fish. You normally don't need carbon, but it may have helped save your fish from what got on the sponge.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Well I didn't open the Nutrafin one so maybe I can return it and get my $20 back. I've been doin regular water changes and the stress zyme says only dose once a week, I don't want to overload it with bacteria cultures...

I wish the rant would get me the tank I want, haha. I'll save for the 180, saw the really big one at AquaInspiration on Kennedy and it's making me want a big tank really badly. Must hold back!


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I used to add stress zyme every water change until my filter was very well established. Now I just add a little if I happen to do a large water change just to help out

If you change 10 gallons, I would treat with stress zyme for 10 gallons. I would do this till everything is stable.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

did the 50% change last night and tested with both the API and Nutrafin Nitrite tests this morning and I'm back up to 5.0 ppm. I tested the bucket water also to see what it was and both tests read 0. I dont get it and its really confusing me.

On a side note today is food treat day where they get shrimp pellets and a few freeze dried bloodworms. It's quite funny to see but while the cories are feasting away at the bottom, and the guppies up at the surface, the shrimp all of a sudden apear and will steal pellets away from the cories while they are eating! Then they scurry away to below my central feature and feast out. I thought shrimp were herbavores and only ate algea


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

You should see if anyone is in your area to give you some used media to help get things fixed faster and safer.

MTS has its advantages


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

One of the guys have reccommended that I turn the air bubbler off at night since I am pretty sure my 2 filters give more than adequate circulation through the tank and aggitation at the surface. 

My cousin will be coming from Brampton this afternoon and bringing some bio and media from his 5 yr old 75 gallon bowfront. 

What is most boggling and is confusing me the most is there is no reaction with the fish....at all. I was reading that although the fish don't show it now, nitrites can cause organ disease and failure which can take a long time to show symptoms...is that true?


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I believe it is true, but it looks like your fish started out very health so just hope for the best.

You probably don't need the bubbler if both filters are HOB


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Okay, all I can do is keep my fingers crossed and watch the tank as closely as I can and make sure things stay healthy. I have never had any algae problems or seen it growing on anything? Is that normal even during the cycling process or does it just mean the tank is very clean. I am certainly the person to have pristine crystal clear water. 

Do you think after putting in the new media I should take out both carbon medias in both HOB's or just one, or just leave it?


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Only remove the carbon if you have to to make room. Carbon is only a problem with medications, otherwise it is all good. I would do my best to keep the carbon in for now to help remove anymore of the junk from your mother if there is any left. Many of us don't use carbon because its not really needed most of the time and the cost. It does help keep the water clearer though.

I'm thinking your lack of algae is because you are running your c02 just right, right amount of light, nutrients. You must have the balance just right.

Many of us with aquaclear filters use the same sponge and bio media for months or years. when doing a water change, rinse the sponge in the water you take out of the tank. If the bio media is looking a little dirty, swish it around in the same water for a sec to remove loose stuff. Personally I only add carbon occasionally. I have a very tight budget and multiple tanks so I try to save money anywhere I can. But you can easily make sponges and bio media last a long time with no risk.

Just a note in case you didnt know, bulbs are only good for 1 year max for planted tanks, many say 6 to 9 months, they loose the good stuff over time. If no plants, you should be able to use a bulb till it burns out. Basically just keep an eye out for your lighting to seem less effective for plants and replace.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Carbon wise I will keep it in though, I like when the water is clear and gives me the sense that the tank is clean.

I have done alot of research about the fish and plants and the filters and use of CO2 and lighting etc and how to balance it all.

I may have to start rinsing the sponge in the syphoned water a little more often as the dumb pond snails are getting smart and laying their eggs inside of the intake tubes of the HOB's and within the sponge filter. I hate these dumb snails and I curse Petsmart for their problem becoming mine. I wish I knew about the hydrogen peroxide and water mix to rinse plants in prior to placing in the tank. I do thorough washes of my plants before placing in my tank, but was afraid with being too rough with the cabomba plant. Once the time is right the tank will get re-scaped and all baby and adult snails picked out so the assassins can take-over and win the war!


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

a few times a week when I see a snail on the glass of my plant hospital, I remove the snails and toss them in my 90 and my festivum absolutely loves them, they don't even touch bottom.

I even thought about going to petsmart and asking for a bunch of bad snails and bring them home and toss them in my 90 which also has 4 yoyo's that would love them to.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

wow. the small ones I squish them between my fingers and let them fall to the bottom, the corries usually eat them. Lately I've seen quite a few empty snail shells on the bottom so I know the assassins are taking care of them but this morning I saw a new hatch of them all over the center feature this morning. I have a skewer stick that I use to squish them and the shrimp are getting in on the fun of eating them. These amano are quite the interesting ones. If only yoyo's got along with my tiny guppies would I trust to keep them, but I can't. not to mention they would probably rip my micro sword to shreds once the yoyo's start to grow.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Ok, so not to double post but a forum topic on the planted tank has me thinking. They were saying that if CO2 is increased and raises PH it creates instability and allows nitrites to spike. The higher the PH, the harder it is for nitrites to fluctuate.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

c02 lowers ph.

yoyo's get too big for your 20 gallon, my biggest is 6 inches and they are extremely active.

For your tank, your assassin snails are probably the best option.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Small update, did 2 50% water changes and am down to 2.0 ppm nitrites, and just before the 2 changes I was at 80ppm nitrates, now back down to 20 ppm. The ammonia is below .25. Hopefully my cousins bio media will help.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

the used bio media will fix things so fast you won't believe it


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

Okay! So the good news is everything has stabilized itself. I have moved the fish to my smaller 10 gallon temporarily as I rescape the 20. The 10 being very basic with a basic black gravel bed will allow me to keep a closer eye on them and makes it easier to see them to inspect for any diseases or parasites before I migrate them back over tomorrow.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

good to hear


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

So there is some bad news. The nitrite spikes I think have caused their damage to my fish. They are slowly dying one by one. What I am thinking is organ failure. Their bellies get large and stay that way for about 2 days, morning of the second day, their fins are tucked in and their tail fin is not fanned out like normal. They would hang out in and around my Sunset Hygro where the current is the weakest, and by the afternoon they are on their side at the bottom of the tank in behind my Vals. The tank is testing perfect perameters during the day and night and bi-daily water changes are occuring to keep everything in check. My cory's, otto's and shrimp are not showing any ill effects and I hope it stays that way. I have a whole ton of meds I have purchased and nothing has worked (the carbon has been taken out when dosing with meds)

Not looking good for my fishies so far. Also a side note, my corkscrew val is melting away leaf by leaf even though it has given new shoots and sending out runners.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

That is such a shame, after all you've tried to do. But nitrites levels such as you experienced can do a lot of damage to fish, sadly.

I use the dip strips as a quick check, because they're fast. If I see anything untoward on the strip, then I use the API tests to get a more accurate reading. Usually it's a case of the nitrates running a bit too high, and all that's needed is a WC and maybe the filter cleaned.
But once I came home to find the filter on my QT had stopped running. Though they were very small, there were quite a few fish in there, and it was already showing some nitrites on the dip strip. Rather than get an exact reading, I just went ahead and did an emergency WC. Ended up being more or less a 100% change. I did it in three rounds, changing about a third of it each time, and testing after each one to see where I was at. Doing it that way is less shock to the fish. Lost one fish, but the rest were ok.

If you haven't yet done so, mark all the equipment for the tanks as AQUARIUM ONLY, and hopefully this will never happen again.

Btw, most shrimp are opportunistic scavengers who will eat almost anything. They like algae and depending on the species may eat it preferentially when it's available, but they'll also eat anything that dies, be it fish, snail or fellow shrimp, as well as other fish foods. I feed mine algae whenever I can, algae tabs or pellets when I haven't any fresh stuff, but I also give them shrimp pellets [ sinking type], frozen blood worms for a treat and micro worms too. They like variety.
Best of luck.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

The fish dieing is probably from the high nitrites.'

you are doing water changes twice a day? I believe you got some used media from someone. You shouldn't be doing that many water changes. The used media should get everything back in order within a week on its own with minimal water changes.

Now what has me concerned is your plants. This could just be because all the water changes brought nitrates to probably 0 which means no nitrates for the vals. 

But I am wondering if there is still some problem left over from the cleaning solution? That could be hurting the plants. Also, Im assuming the constant water changes are because your levels were not being fixed by the used media? If this is the case, it looks really bad for your whole setup.

I strongly recommend not buying any fish for a while first of all.

Worst case everything is toast. This would mean tearing the whole tank down and using bleach to clean everything and starting all over again.

It sounds like you are going to lose some more fish, one benefit on this is the lower ammonia going into the tank, gotta look on the bright side.

I would like to know more about how the cycling has been going with the levels and what is going on with the used media and all the extra water changes. Im wondering if maybe you are over doing it right now or if there is something in the tank that is making it impossible. By my estimation, by now everything should have been all back to normal, in regards to your cycle.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

That's what I'm guessing. Many of the fish _look_ healthy, but like I said I'm losing them one by one. I lost another one last night and this morning another one's belly is starting to look round. He's still swimming around normally and is eating normally with all the other fish.

Fishfur, I also use dip strips once in a while but I find them unreliable, I just put in the time to do my full API tests everyday or every other day. All of my buckets and nets etc have been marked, but things like sponges etc that get used fully submersed in the tank are left unmarked and put in a marked bucket. I watched one of my shrimp molt this morning. This little bugger is HUGE compared to the other 4, I am guessing about 1"-1.5" in length.

Pyrrolin, I was doing water changes every other day until I got my ammonia and nitrates consistently back to 0 ppm, which it is now so back to my weekly changes. Nitrates are reading low so I am guessing the same about the vals, I'm only getting 5.0 ppm. The Torta Vals however are growing like grass on steroids, I trimmed all the leaves when I re-scaped so it came straight to the surface and I already have 10+ leaves that have grown to the surface and are touching the front of the tank (about 24-28 inches)

The used media from my cousin I think is to thank for getting my levels back to normal, it has however been removed from my HOB as both of my HOB's have grown some decent bacteria (also I was also dosing with Stress Zyme + to kick start some new bacteria growth.

I certainly won't be buying any more fish for a while. I want to make sure I can have no fish deaths for about 4-8 weeks.

Last night my levels were 0ppm Ammonia and Nitrites, 5ppm Nitrates, 7.4 pH, 9 dkH, 13 dGH. Not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but the sponge filters in both HOB's wreak so bad.....I'm guessing this is bacteria and because I don't have carbon in there, the carbon isn't picking up the smell.

Thanks again everyone for the support and tips. Just wish I didn't have to loose so many fish, which I have come to finally learn all their quirks.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

sponges could also smell because of all the dead bacteria from the mass die off you had before. Carbon should help for now, but in a week or so when you do a WC, rinse the sponges in the drained water well to help remove the old junk. Doing it in old tank water helps save the bacteria that is on the sponge.

Looks like you are on track besides the fish dieing from damage from before. Maybe in a week, buy one cheap fish that you are sure is healthy and put it in and see how he does for a few weeks, if it stays healthy, then it should be safe to start buying fish again.

The only question now is if the toxin that got in your tank is still there or not, im guessing not but only time will tell for sure.

At least things aren't as bad right now as I thought. The fish you already have may continue to die, but this would just be them finally dieing from the damage from before. If a new fish were to die, then I'd be worried


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

That might be it. I also placed pre-filter sponges on the intakes to keep the fine leaves from my rotala and sunset hygro from clogging the HOB motors. I may rinse one of the filters tonight from the smaller HOB in some tank water and then rinse the one from the larger HOB on christmas day just so I have it spaced apart. The one in the larger Fluval C3 has a much finer filter and find that the pin that pops up to tell me to clean the filter pops up within a few days. The smell hasn't gotten to the point where it bothers me yet, but when I take the covers off the HOB I can sorta smell them. 

I think I might just let the 'die-off' bring the fish population down from crazily overstocked to moderately overstocked until I can afford a larger tank. 

my only problem now is the ground is getting way too hard to dig up to bury the dying fish...can i put them in the Green recycle containers (organics?)


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

yup, can toss in the green bits, they are organic matter so all good. Think of it as if you had seafood for supper and wanted to toss out the left overs.


----------



## andrewdingemans (Dec 7, 2012)

So a little update for everyone. I am now down to 4 guppies from 13 and I've also lost one Panda Cory. All of my inverts, 4 otto's and 13 other cory's are still healthy-looking.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

got lucky, glad its going ok for you


----------

