# Class experiment



## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

It could not be any simpler than that.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Can you think of a reason for not sharing this? Neither could I.

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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

I know we're not supposed to talk about politics, but I agree 100% 

Note: I know personally that the OP has lived on both sides of this ideological fence  

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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

no bribes?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

sig said:


> To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


Some people work 80 hours a week just to make ends meet. Other people never worked a day in their lives and never have to worry about money.

If you do poorly on your first test, you can always study hard and get a good grade on your next test. However, if you were born in a poor family, you can work 100 times as hard as someone born to a rich family and never earn a fraction of what that person earns.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

solarz;228082. However said:


> The overwhelming majority of poor people WHO WANTS TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING, are achieving it.
> 
> What about me, my family and many others?
> 
> ...


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

sig said:


> The overwhelming majority of poor people WHO WANTS TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING, are achieving it.
> 
> What about me, my family and many others?
> 
> ...


Heh, at least you guys had 24K.

My father came to Canada in '88, specifically Quebec city, with only 8000$. My mother and I arrived in '89. English? Try French, which my parents didn't speak a word of.

So yes, I know what it's like to start with next to nothing.

However, I also know many stories of people who *didn't* succeed. One person was an accomplished sculptor in China. He sculpted a "Virgin Mary" for one of the churches in Quebec, and when it was done and he asked for payment, they told him that he was doing volunteer work.

His wife and daughter spent day and night making clothes in their rented basement home. My parents lent them some money to open a convenience store. They closed the store a few months later, after getting robbed a couple of times. Last I heard, they left Canada to return to China.

My wife's co-worker went on maternity leave a few months ago. Her mat-leave pay is 500$ a month. Her husband used to work 3 jobs until recently, when he quit one job so he'd have some time to take care of his wife and newborn daughter. They're working hard to create a good life for themselves, and I wish them the best, but I sure don't envy them!

If you want to know what extreme Capitalism is like, you should visit China: no healthcare, no welfare. Even if you're a well to-do middle class family, you'd still be struggling to pay sky-high housing costs. And if you have the misfortune of getting sick with a serious illness, you can kiss your life savings good bye.

"Socialist" policies like free healthcare helps to create and sustain the middle class precisely because they don't have to worry about losing their life savings to illnesses. I got appendicitis and ulcer as a kid. If it weren't for healthcare, my parents would've gone tens of thousands of dollars into debt just to afford my stay in the hospital, at a time when their combined monthly income was 1400$.


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## AquaticPulse (Jun 19, 2011)

This seems to only work in a finite game with certain conditions. ie. no entry or exit from the course, and no social influence. If you allow entry and exit from the course, people with high grades would simply switch out and you're class average would drop immediately and assuming no one wants a bad grade, everyone leaves and the professor is out of a job. If we allow social influence, people would either bribe those with low grades to drop the course or work harder, or they would bribe high achieving students to take the course and bring up the average. 

In an infinite series of games, assuming the condition that no one can leave or enter the course, and no social convention, people will eventually create a working coalition. In this sense, everyone has to work together to achieve a high grade or they will lose. If we have the outcome of everyone gets an B, D and F and following from the story, there is incentive to work hard once people get a D as no one was happy and there was pressure at this moment to work together, especially since they're not in competition with each other. An infinite series would mean that eventually no one would cheat the system by free riding on the protocol. 

If you have social influence, there would probably be a leader at the beginning which means marks may not even drop to a D, as people have trust in the leader and follow through with the plan of everyone working hard. Any incentive to cheat from the plan would be eliminated in an infinite game series as the cost of cheating outweighs the cost of working together as the result of deviating from the plan would seem to result in everyone getting an F as anticipated by the group. This market equilibrium won't make everyone happy though it's hard to argue there is a perfect system. 

Anyways those last few points are pretty insightful still. Though i don't quite understand
"The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else." The government doesn't "take" or "give" it's more like the government "borrows" and "lends". There's an important difference to that. If the government lends money, they gain interest when you repay it, assuming you have collateral. If the government borrows money, they're going to repay it with less interest than the person repaying the government. So in a sense i guess the government is "taking" the difference in interest which then is used for everyone else. 

Lastly i like to say, when talking about money and government together, it's a little tricky as in Canada our central bank and government are one and in the states they're separate governing bodies. Though I'm not sure if that's useful, just thought it's interesting to mention


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

please close a thread, before I get banned

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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

sig said:


> middle class in US is not losing their life savings to illnesses, because they have a insurance.
> 
> Please do not talk about "Socialist" policies. You have no clue what is the meaning of real "Socialist" policies. These policies are from progressive socialists like Stalin, Hitler. Lenin and ets. These are the dark times to where socialist obama is leading the nation.
> I have lived under the Soviet regime, under "redistribution of wealth, "equality" "free health care, I know what it means and feels like. I HAVE ALREADY BEEN THERE!!!!!!!!
> ...


FYI, Hitler was the extreme opposite of socialism.

As for health care, yes, the US middle class have insurance... until they lose their job. Laid off? Well sucks to be you then.

And what about some of the lower classes who don't have health insurance? Decades of hard work can be wiped out overnight by an illness. That goes directly counter to your idea that "if you work hard, you'll be rewarded with a better life". The fact is, that doesn't always happen.

Yes, Canada has a shortage of family doctors because of our free health care policies and there may be a lot of Canadians who are willing to pay for health care in the US, but I can assure you that there are far more Canadians who are happy that they have access to free health care.

As for your experiences with "free" health care, you'll find that and more in all the "paid" health care systems in China. Want to make sure an operation goes smoothly? You'll have to bribe the doctor *in addition* to paying the hospital fees. Even if you're dying of a heart attack, if you don't have the money to pay, the hospital won't treat you. *THAT* is what happens in a private health care system. The reason this last scenario doesn't happen in the US is because hospitals can get money from the government, which ultimately still come from taxpayer pockets.

In the end, a free health care system results in some people being unable to pay to get better health care. A private health care system results in a lot more people being simply unable to pay for health care.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Haha Godwin's law, yeah Sig, this thread needs to be closed  

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## poobar (Feb 20, 2011)

All in all. After reading this thread reminded me of 2 things. The first at the start of the thread was the four Yorkshire men sketch from Monty python. (sorry. Can't get the link on the phone. Read the first 3 or 4 posts again) the second is that we should all be greatful to live in a western society that supports a government health system. I have only ever lived in England and Canada and am thankful for this luxury!


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

This is interesting. We don't have free health care here. We have government funded heath care. The government pays the doctors, the hospitals operate with the intent of breaking even, the government is the "insurance company, again with the intent of breaking even. When you have a private system, the doctor gets paid the same as here, but the hospitals operate with the intent of making a profit, which raises the cost of health care. When you add private insurance, you add another layer of cost provided by insurance companies whose first (and only) priority is to make money. So, the two may work in exactly the same fashion, but, the private system will be more expensive because you have two layers that add cost to the system without adding value.
My personal experience has been positive. I am still alive today because I received excellent care quickly and efficiently, when I needed it. I can't say enough about the doctors and nurses who took care of me while in the hospital, or the EMTs and fireman who came to my aid within minutes of the 911 call.


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

nothing is fair in this world

A shark kills a person, it's nature

You kill a person, it's manslaughter

A raccoon kills a Koi in your pond, it's natural

You beat up the raccoon, it's cruel

Bad and good things happen in life, just accept who you are, and your position, there are no fairness in the game of life  Do what you must, do what you can, just go with the flow.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

you are the best Alex. Well said..

Just do not go with the flow, you can finish in the sewer



bigfishy said:


> nothing is fair in this world
> 
> A shark kills a person, it's nature
> 
> ...


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## MsGardeness (Apr 12, 2010)

sig said:


> Just do not go with the flow, you can finish in the sewer


That's an awesome mantra!


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