# What causes high pH?



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I have tested my tap water, and it's around 7.4. However, in both my tanks, the pH is now around 8. In my shrimp tank, it's around 8.2-8.4.

The only things I have in the tank are:

- flourite black substrate for shrimp tank
- guppy tank has blue gravel with flourite black mixed in
- aquatic plants: water wisteria, tape grass, hornwort, java moss, m. umbrosum
- each tank has a half coconut shell in it

that's it, no ornaments or anything artificial.

I've heard that hornwort "softens water and raises pH", but I'm not sure how credible that is, as my tank water is 10dGH, higher than the 8dGH from the tap.

Any ideas on what could be causing my high pH?


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm glad that you asked this one, as I am in North York as well, and also have a PH of 7.4 stright from the tap, I tested my tank last week and the PH was 7.8, not sure why the PH is higher in the tank? I have a good sized piece of bogwood in there, and I thought that bogwood was supposed to help keep PH levels down?.


Cheer's...PanzerFodder...


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

What is your guys water change schedule?


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

igor.kanshyn said:


> What is your guys water change schedule?


I do two a week, 25% on Wednesday and a 30% on Sunday.

My filters are a aquaclear 70 and a penguin 100 bio-wheel running on a 10G tank (should be filtering about 400 GPH ) "LOL" 

Also have a jetstream 1500 connected to an airstone, would this make a difference to the PH in my tank?

Cheer's...PanzerFodder...


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

You need to know the pH of your tap water after any excess CO2 has gassed off. Try aerating your tap water for an hour or so. Would help to know the KH as well. Generally, a high pH is caused by a high Kh. The black Fluorite can raise the Kh. , although there are other possibilities. Evaporation can raise the Kh too and hence the pH. Gravel containing shells or other forms of Calcium Carbonate or Magnesium Carbonate can also raise the KH.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I will try testing the pH of my tap water after it's been aerated.

I also remembered one difference between my shrimp and guppy tank: the shrimp tank has a new filter, and as such, it has active carbon running while the guppy tank doesn't.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

PH of tap water around here is 8.0

chemical tests are not reliable nor accurate.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> PH of tap water around here is 8.0
> 
> chemical tests are not reliable nor accurate.


errr.... what tests do you use then?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

digital PH probe, 

PH in most aquariums is based on amount of CO2, TA (total alkalinity) and some other parameters. since you have plants in your tank which absorb co2 ... raised PH is normal.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

digital PH probe, but you do not need it 


PH in most aquariums is based on amount of CO2, TA (total alkalinity) and some other parameters. since you have plants in your tank which absorb co2 ... raised PH is normal.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

8.0 sounds pretty high for tap water. Is that after aeration?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

solarz said:


> 8.0 sounds pretty high for tap water. Is that after aeration?




do you understand what aeration does and what PH 8.0 means ?

GTAs tap water is PH 8.0 so .... lol its funny how u are arguing .... are you a chemist to be able to say 8.0 is high ?

you aerate water, so the CO2 contents match the CO2 contents of the room. TAP water is from the TAP and is in its equilibrium state.

dont mix something you hear on the net about aeration with this.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

The pH in my area (Toronto, East York) comes out of the tap at 7.6 (Hanna digital meter) right now. From our water supply there is little to no co2 in the water straight out of the tap, so aeration will have little effect. TO's water is also fairly hard (kH), so would more than likely resist any drop in pH due to matching co2 content with the atmosphere.

If running a tank with plants, low bio-load and little to no surface agitation, it is possible to bump your pH up a small amount as you have elements (plants) in the tank that are using any co2 present faster than it can be replenished by the bio-load (fish) or surface agitation (atmosphere).

In Toronto, I would say it is fairly normal to have a pH around 8 or so. There is nothing wrong with it and I wouldn't say it is "high" - it is well within acceptable ranges for 90% of fish.

You may also be getting false readings (a bit high or a bit low) from using pH test strips or chemical drops. I would say best case scenario is that they are accurate to a degree of 1 or .5, so if you are reading 8 your pH may be anywhere from 7.5 to 8.5. Niether are as accurate as a pH probe.

Hope that helps some.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Chris S said:


> The pH in my area (Toronto, East York) comes out of the tap at 7.6 (Hanna digital meter) right now. From our water supply there is little to no co2 in the water straight out of the tap, so aeration will have little effect. TO's water is also fairly hard (kH), so would more than likely resist any drop in pH due to matching co2 content with the atmosphere.
> 
> If running a tank with plants, low bio-load and little to no surface agitation, it is possible to bump your pH up a small amount as you have elements (plants) in the tank that are using any co2 present faster than it can be replenished by the bio-load (fish) or surface agitation (atmosphere).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments Chris, they're very helpful. Are you saying that, since I'm not doing CO2 injections, having more surface agitation would actually improve my CO2 levels?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

To a small degree, but nothing measurable really. It will help to equalize the co2 levels to that of the atmosphere.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

So have you test your water after you aerate it?

I would think it should settle at 7.8 pH. I have never seen my tab water hit 8 pH before. If anything I've seen it at 7.4 pH.
I find it a bit of a reverse logic in that the plant would caused the pH to go up. All planted tanks will eventually cause a drop in pH. With or without CO2 injection. I don't really care about the chemistry behind it either, but I would assume it has something to do with the acidic enzymes that is release when a leaf or root decays or perhapes the actual decomposition cause the pH drop.
Anyway, how is your bio load? If it's not too bad, I would leave it alone without water change for 2 weeks to see if the plants can lower the pH by itself. You can top up if the water level drops.

I have a tanks setup with Seachem flourite black, but unfortunately, it's CO2 injected. So can't help you there.

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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Zebrapl3co said:


> So have you test your water after you aerate it?
> 
> I would think it should settle at 7.8 pH. I have never seen my tab water hit 8 pH before. If anything I've seen it at 7.4 pH.
> I find it a bit of a reverse logic in that the plant would caused the pH to go up. All planted tanks will eventually cause a drop in pH. With or without CO2 injection. I don't really care about the chemistry behind it either, but I would assume it has something to do with the acidic enzymes that is release when a leaf or root decays or perhapes the actual decomposition cause the pH drop.
> ...


*
"All planted tanks will eventually cause a drop in pH. With or without CO2 injection. I don't really care about the chemistry behind it either, but I would assume it has something to do with the acidic enzymes that is release when a leaf or root decays or perhapes the actual decomposition cause the pH drop."*

if you dont care for the chemistry behind it, why make assumptions ?

your assumptions is wrong, and PH is a function of CO2, and that is what rising it.

some ppl just dont want to learn LOL haha


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

Regarding to the initial question. 
I think that your test kit is not accurate enough. Tap water should be 7.6-7.8 in GTA area. Having 20% + 30% WC in a week you should not see any big difference in pH from your tap water.

I assume that you do not all any PH or KH boosters and do not use aragonite as a substrate in that tank


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Zebrapl3co said:


> So have you test your water after you aerate it?
> 
> I would think it should settle at 7.8 pH. I have never seen my tab water hit 8 pH before. If anything I've seen it at 7.4 pH.
> I find it a bit of a reverse logic in that the plant would caused the pH to go up. All planted tanks will eventually cause a drop in pH. With or without CO2 injection. I don't really care about the chemistry behind it either, but I would assume it has something to do with the acidic enzymes that is release when a leaf or root decays or perhapes the actual decomposition cause the pH drop.
> ...


Actually, I believe you are correct. The natural decomposition cycle, or carbon cycle, will release co2. If this didn't happen, I think our poor world would be depleted of atmospheric carbon pretty quickly!

In certain instances, such as running a "Diana Walstad natural tank", this would play a large role in supplementing co2 in the water column, and in nature you see this when looking at the mouths of small streams and springs running into large bodies of water (increased plant growth), but in most aquarium settings this is not really applicable in the same sense and would imagine it would have little to no noticeable effect on the pH of a properly maintained aquarium.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks Chris. But we both are right.



Big Ray said:


> ... if you dont care for the chemistry behind it, why make assumptions ?
> 
> your assumptions is wrong, and PH is a function of CO2, and that is what rising it.
> 
> some ppl just dont want to learn LOL haha


Big Ray, the only reason I don't care much about the chemistry behind it is because I know full well of the end results. Please look under CO2 emmission from decompostion first, then come back and talk to me about it.

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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Zebrapl3co said:


> So have you test your water after you aerate it?
> 
> I would think it should settle at 7.8 pH. I have never seen my tab water hit 8 pH before. If anything I've seen it at 7.4 pH.


Alright, I checked the pH after letting tap water age for 24 hours. What do you know, it measured 8.2!


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Like Igor, I think your test kit is probably reading high. There is obviously CO2 dissolved in your tap water. That's why your pH climbs after aeration. If you test for KH then you will know for sure. 

Kh has no effect on on the pH swing due to CO2 concentration in aquariums unless the KH is extremely low or extremely high. For those that doubt, just check out a pH/KH/CO2 chart. A 10 fold increase in CO2 concentration always produces a 1.0 drop in pH regardless of KH. Carbonate buffering does not prevent a pH swing due to changes in CO2 concentration.

Solarz probably pretty confused by now.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

waj8 said:


> Like Igor, I think your test kit is probably reading high. There is obviously CO2 dissolved in your tap water. That's why your pH climbs after aeration. If you test for KH then you will know for sure.
> 
> Kh has no effect on on the pH swing due to CO2 concentration in aquariums unless the KH is extremely low or extremely high. For those that doubt, just check out a pH/KH/CO2 chart. A 10 fold increase in CO2 concentration always produces a 1.0 drop in pH regardless of KH. Carbonate buffering does not prevent a pH swing due to changes in CO2 concentration.
> 
> Solarz probably pretty confused by now.


I tested KH, it's around 5 dKH. (My tank water is actually around 3-4 dKH... I assume that the plants are eating up the bicarbonates.)

I don't think my test kit is the problem. I compared both the aged tap water, and water straight from the tap: the latter measured 7.4 while the former measured 8.2.


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

It's mainly the test kit. If your KH is 5 then after aerating your pH must be about 7.6 not 8.2.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

waj8 said:


> It's mainly the test kit. If your KH is 5 then after aerating your pH must be about 7.6 not 8.2.


I guess that's possible, but then how the hell are you supposed to find out your pH? I'm not going to spend $10+ on another ph tester...


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

waj8 said:


> Like Igor, I think your test kit is probably reading high. There is obviously CO2 dissolved in your tap water. That's why your pH climbs after aeration. If you test for KH then you will know for sure.
> 
> Kh has no effect on on the pH swing due to CO2 concentration in aquariums unless the KH is extremely low or extremely high. For those that doubt, just check out a pH/KH/CO2 chart. A 10 fold increase in CO2 concentration always produces a 1.0 drop in pH regardless of KH. Carbonate buffering does not prevent a pH swing due to changes in CO2 concentration.
> 
> Solarz probably pretty confused by now.


Here are some usefull info, why argue when we have science and formulas 

PH Equations : 
HCO3 - = CA / ( 1 +2 pK2 / pHt )

CO3-- = CA x pK2 / ( pHt + 2 pK2 )

CO2 = CA x pHt / [ pK1 (1 + 2 pK2 / pHt ) ]

pCO2 = CA x pH / [ pK1 s ( 1 + 2 pK2/ pHt ) ]

pH ( as tank pH / pH nbs) = [ pCO2 pK1 s Ѓ ( pCO2^2 pK1^2 s^2 + 8 CA pCO2 pK1 s pK2 ) ] / 2 CA

Ѓ = Square Root of ( ........)

s = CO2 solubility in mmol /atm, @ x Temp(C) and y Salinity

pCO2 = ppm CO2

CA = TA - Borate Alk in meq/ l

TA = Total Alk in meq/ l

CA = Carbonate Alk in meq/ l

pK1 (as 10^-pK1) = 3633.86 / T - (61.2172 + 9.6777 ln (T) - 0.011555 S + 0.0001152 S^2 )

pK2 (as 10^-pK2) = 471.78 /T + ( 25.9290 - 3.16967 ln (T) - 0.001781 S + 0.0001122 S^2 )

pHt (as 10^-pHt) = pHnbs (as 10^- pHnbs) + log ( fH )

fH = 0.739 + 0.0307 S + 0.0000794 S ^2 + 0.00006443 T - 0.00117 S T

S = Salinity in ppt

T = Temp in Kelvin

OBV, the salinity is zero in freshwater cases ...


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

solarz said:


> I tested KH, it's around 5 dKH. (My tank water is actually around 3-4 dKH... I assume that the plants are eating up the bicarbonates.)
> 
> I don't think my test kit is the problem. I compared both the aged tap water, and water straight from the tap: the latter measured 7.4 while the former measured 8.2.


what is this test done with ? API ?

at TA of 5 PPM (TA is KH - all other carbonates) in Freshwater, with normal room CO2 (500 PPM) , temp of 80 F, your PH should be dead on 7.0.

FOR PH to raise to 8.2, your CO2 contents need to have dropped to about 30 PPM or so !


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

I have provided the scientific info here on PH and KH and co2 and ... . but it is important to understand that hobby grade test kits are not accurate, and chemical tests are not even CLOSE to real values for PH . unless you have a PH probe which is calibrated often, you should stop worrying yourself about PH . if anyone has any questions regarding the SCIENCE behind it, let me know.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

You know, I think I have a pretty good grasp on the science behind it, but I find your scientific "diagrams" more confusing than helpful


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Chris S said:


> You know, I think I have a pretty good grasp on the science behind it, but I find your scientific "diagrams" more confusing than helpful


first of all, its not a diagram, its the FORMULA THAT DEFINES EQUILIBRIUM PH .... . derived by chemists, NOT ME in particular ....

well I just cant stand ppl saying science and the formula that defines PH is WRONG !!! haha makes no sense

so I posted the formula to get PH in water, so perhaps they can make more educated comments.

I understand this is the beginners circle, and if wrong info are to be promoted here, Please let me know so I stop!

I still find it funny how ppl an say science is wrong LOL the formula that defines PH is wrong ? what does that mean ? you cn invent your own PH scale and call it whatever ... its not PH though lol ...

anyways ...

lastly, the "diagram" is science, and if it confuses you then you probably didnt understand the science


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

anyways, apologies for wanting to educate you ppl 

Im outta here ...
lol


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Just poking fun at you, not trying to send you off on a tangent


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Chris S said:


> Just poking fun at you, not trying to send you off on a tangent


probably my fault for wanting to educate ppl ...

I'll offer my advice to ppl who appreciate it....


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Wow, BigRay, I had no idea it was so complicated. Fascinating however. Maybe sometime I will sit down and try to wrap my mind around it all, but I never did too well in chemistry...

As a hobby aquarist, I think its still good to have an understanding of how pH works, because so many things seem to inter-related and one change can set off a ripple effect.

Thanks!

Sent from my HTC Magic using Tapatalk


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Why Are we here again???

Not everyone is gunna agree with everyone on a forum. Be the big person and just take a step back


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Okay, anyway, back on topic:

The reason I'm asking this is because I'm trying to keep cardinal tetras in my tank, which has 8.2-8.4 water.

My KH measures 5 dKH out of the tap, and 4 dKH in the tank. My GH is around 10 dGH. Out of the tap, it's around 8 dGH.

Now my KH seems pretty low for such a high pH, so there might be a few possibilities:

1- My pH measurements are off, somehow.
2- My KH measurement is off.
3- There's something in my water that's raising the pH but not the KH. (Possibilities?)

Anyway, as long as my cardinals are fine, I don't care what my pH really is. Sometimes, I think it's better if I didn't measure anything at all!


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

I didn't realize this was an argument...

BigRay seems to have a very solid and scientific understanding on a topic here, and I think we should be grateful to have reliable sources on a cool site like this.

Sent from my HTC Magic using Tapatalk


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

solarz said:


> Alright, I checked the pH after letting tap water age for 24 hours. What do you know, it measured 8.2!


Wow, now that is a shocker. Where did you sit the water? Was it in a bucket? or one what kind of container?!
I think this need a second proper look .... it's been a while since I dig up info on Toronto water ... *goes info digging again*.
OK, here's a report on Toronto Water back int 2007 from the city of Toronto.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/hl/bgrd/backgroundfile-3455.pdf
See page 5, talks a bit about pH. But not really helpful here.

If you doubt where you're water is coming from. It's from Ontario. Read this:
http://www.toronto.ca/water/supply/system/distribution.htm

Confused? Here's a pictogram:
http://www.toronto.ca/water/supply/supply_facilities/rcharris/pdf/water_filtration_process.pdf

Here is a report that was done back on 2004.
http://www.toronto.ca/water/annual_report/pdf/annual_report_2004.pdf
See page 48. Specifically the Min and Max of the pH. So I guess the Max can hit 8 pH and the min is 7.2 pH with an average of 7.5 pH.

There are testings done by Toronto itself. I know for a fact that they are required to test this and monitor the water.
I am guessing that the water coming into your house is still within this range. Something changed the pH ...
Now I am wondering if you have any filter or non-working water softener connected in your basement?
You might want to call 311 and ask for a water tap test from Toronto. It's free or send an email to [email protected]

See:
http://www.toronto.ca/water/contact.htm

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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

50seven said:


> I didn't realize this was an argument...
> 
> BigRay seems to have a very solid and scientific understanding on a topic here, and I think we should be grateful to have reliable sources on a cool site like this.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Magic using Tapatalk


Big Ray has no idea what he's talking about.


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Holy Crap! Where did that equation come from? I haven't seen anything that funky since my old college days. Next time I have trouble sleeping at night I'll have to pull out my old Skoog and West and see if I can make heads or tails of that equation. What reference did you use?

Lee


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Just reread the thread. Which test kits are you using? I have used an API test on water in my tanks and I also get about 5 degrees of KH. That seems normal. Error doesn't seem to bad as it takes 5 drops into the test tube.

pH is a little different. My Api kit only goes from 6.0 to 7.6. All I can say for certain is my water is above 7.6.

From a practical standpoint, I don't think your water is any different than anyone else's. Your cardinals were likely born in it, rather than being wild caught, so I'm sure they will be quite happy as they are.

From an evolutionary standpoint, they evolved in soft, low pH water. If you want to spend some money, buy an RO unit, and toss in some acid. I don't think the fish will notice much difference but thier colour may look better.

The drawback is that it is much harder and more expensive to maintain stable water conditions. And not everything you put in the tank is going to like acidic water.

By the way, a good pH meter can cost a couple of grand so I'll stick with my $10 test kits.

Lee


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Wow, now that is a shocker. Where did you sit the water? Was it in a bucket? or one what kind of container?!


Just a plastic cup.



Lee_D said:


> Just reread the thread. Which test kits are you using? I have used an API test on water in my tanks and I also get about 5 degrees of KH. That seems normal. Error doesn't seem to bad as it takes 5 drops into the test tube.
> 
> pH is a little different. My Api kit only goes from 6.0 to 7.6. All I can say for certain is my water is above 7.6.


I'm using the API Freshwater master kit. I have 2 pH tests, one that goes from 6.0 to 7.6, and a "high range" pH that goes from 7.4 to 8.6+.

I put in 2 pieces of driftwood into the tank (after soaking it for a day). Interestingly, the water in the bucket that was used to soak the driftwood measure about 6.6 pH with a GH of only 5-6 dGH, down from 8 dGH from the tap. The KH went down to 3 dKH, from 5 dKH from tap.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Lee_D said:


> Holy Crap! Where did that equation come from? I haven't seen anything that funky since my old college days. Next time I have trouble sleeping at night I'll have to pull out my old Skoog and West and see if I can make heads or tails of that equation. What reference did you use?
> 
> Lee


http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/oceans/co2rprt.html

Read this, then go read your chemistry books, then think really hard, then ask questions form educated ppl like me, and then you may get it 
MAY !


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

solarz said:


> Just a plastic cup.
> 
> Interestingly, the water in the bucket that was used to soak the driftwood measure about 6.6 pH with a GH of only 5-6 dGH, down from 8 dGH from the tap. The KH went down to 3 dKH, from 5 dKH from tap.


Hey solarz, 
I also have some biggish pieces of bogwood (from BA) soaking in a bucket with some lumps of slate since last night  I will check the PH of the water before I tip it away, just to see if I get the same results as you, and I'll also be useing a API master test kit so this could be intresting  .

Cheer's...PanzerFodder...


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Hey Big Ray. Cool Paper. I like it. It requires a great deal of analysis though to be usefull. Most of it can be done by a flow injection analyzer but obviously that's beyond anything a hobbyist can afford. Where did you find one?

Lee


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Solarz,

Well, thats pretty conclusive to me. Must be the wood.

Wood goes in water, pH drops, Hardness drops.

Acid + CaCo3 -> Ca Salt + CO2 + H2O

First year Inorganic Chemistry.

Lee


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

Right, I'm back with the results of testing the PH of the water in my Bogwood bucket.

I took the samples from the water at the top of the bucket that has been sitting in the sink for about 20 hours, and did both PH and PH high range tests.

PH high range: color in the tube was lighter that the lightest color on the chart.

PH on the lower scale gave a reading of 6.8.

Looks like Bogwood will help to lower your PH after all, but I would think you would have to fill your tank almost solid with the stuff to make a huge difference, as there is a lot of wood in my bucket  .

Cheer's...PanzerFodder...


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

How big was your sink? I recently took 1.5 ml of Muriatic Acid (HCL) from Rona (Concentration Unknown) to drop 2.5 gallons of tap water below pH 6.0.

I later took about 25ml of the same acid to drop 25 gallons of tap plus 100 gallons RO plus a tank full of used gravel to below 6.0.

Thats why I was hesitant to think it was the wood. I guess there is a lot of acid in Bogwood after all...

Lee


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

Lee_D said:


> How big was your sink? I recently took 1.5 ml of Muriatic Acid (HCL) from Rona (Concentration Unknown) to drop 2.5 gallons of tap water below pH 6.0.
> 
> I later took about 25ml of the same acid to drop 25 gallons of tap plus 100 gallons RO plus a tank full of used gravel to below 6.0.
> 
> ...


It's not soaking in the sink mate!, the 5 gallon bucket with the wood in it was in the sink because I was to lazy to lift it out when the bucket was full 

Cheer's...PanzerFodder...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Be nice, no personal attacks. I won't warn anyone the next time I see anyone call anyone stupid, dumb, on meds... etc etc. Grow up.


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