# Emmersed HC



## Evans11

I'm growing HC (Dwarf Baby Tears) emmersed and am not sure how long to keep my lighting on. I'm using a dual 24W T5 HO light on a 15 Gallon. 

Is it better to keep the light on for 14hrs a day or should I be limiting the photo period to 8hrs or so? The tank is not filled with water (again its an emmersed setup) so overlighting would not cause an algae problem.

Basically my question is: will leaving the lighting on longer make the HC grow faster? 

Any feedback is appreciated. I know JimmyJam has been successful growing HC this way. 

Thanks.


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## Byronicle

I actually just read an article of this on the magazine and what I read was that 12 hours, and that it should have a lid that is semi-closed to keep things humid as well as some air circulation. Just remember to spray the plants with water daily


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## Evans11

Thanks for your reply. I am using a glass lid with no holes for air so it holds the humidity inside the tank. Maybe I will leave some space in the lid for some air circulation. (c02 exchange)

It's been growing for over a month now, and it is spreading and filling in, but its a slow process. It takes a ton of patience.


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## Ciddian

I have no tips sadly.. but that looks very nice


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## Byronicle

holy moly, how much was it covered at first?


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## Evans11

Byronicle said:


> holy moly, how much was it covered at first?


I actually started the process at the end of Sept.

Approx Sept 24th.









Oct 10th: I added a little more HC that I had in my 29 Gallon. The initial HC I planted is speading out.

Oct 12:









I started to cut off some of the longer pieces and replant them. HC is a tiny version of a stem plant so I thought it would grow faster with this method.

Nov 7th:









Its a long process and i'm afraid of it melting and turning to brown mush when I fill the tank with water. I'm not going to fill it untill I have a pressurized C02 system set up.

I am noticing that its growth is now slowing down and a few of the leaves have turned brown. (almost like they are burnt from too much heat or lighting). This is why I originally asked about how much lighting is sufficient for best growth.

I keep the water below the substrate and mist it every day or so.

I am going to keep it growing emmersed until the substrate is completely covered and the HC is well rooted.

Any suggestions welcome as I am a total rookie to this method.


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## Byronicle

what do you mean by HC melting?

and i actually am just starting to do this as well with my 75 gallon aquarium


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## jimmyjam

hey bud.. ur doing great, my suggestion would be to switch to submersed now.. I found i get the best result when the hc is rooted and spreading decently to start adding water. When the hc becomes submersed, it will grow much quicker, especially when you crank up the co2 and give good nitrate for these guys. You could leave it emmersed but it takes a long time for it to fill in. The whole point of starting it emmersed is to give the hc roots a kick start before the algae.


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## Evans11

Byronicle said:


> what do you mean by HC melting?


Most HC bought at Local Fish Stores is grown in the emmersed form.
Once you place it underwater, it will convert to an underwater state. (immersed form)

During this process, if the HC does not have enough light and C02, it will gradually turn to brown mush. This is "melting". Very frustrating.

Grown emmersed, there is adequate amounts of C02 so when you submerse it in your aquarium, the co2 in not as readily available and the plant slowly dies as it is a plant that need lots of C02.

Plus growing it out of water allows the roots to achor themselves into the substrate so when you add water it won't float to the surface.


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## Evans11

Thanks Jimmy,

I have noticed the growth slow down as you mentioned.
I have a regulator but just need to go out an get a 10lb C02 Tank to get my system going.  

Brian.


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## Mr Fishies

Evans11 said:


> I actually started the process at the end of Sept.
> 
> Approx Sept 24th.
> <SNIP>


That's amazing progress...all plants, aquatic or terrestrial get shocked and growth slows down or stops for a time when transplantings happen, considering the growth in your pics I'd have guessed more than 6 or so weeks.

You won't find tips on getting it in any of the books but the most important thing you can get yourself when starting planted tanks is patience.


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## Chris S

jimmyjam said:


> hey bud.. ur doing great, my suggestion would be to switch to submersed now.. I found i get the best result when the hc is rooted and spreading decently to start adding water. When the hc becomes submersed, it will grow much quicker, especially when you crank up the co2 and give good nitrate for these guys. You could leave it emmersed but it takes a long time for it to fill in. The whole point of starting it emmersed is to give the hc roots a kick start before the algae.


Agreed. As soon as you have the ability to supply co2, you should find it takes off with appropriate fertilization.


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## jimmyjam

yeah i think ur good to start tossing some water in, just get that tank.. check craigslist or kijiji, or if ur desperate, u can come by my chiro clinic which i just opened in the hilton suites and jack one of their empty ones =p... jokes.. not really =p. Im just getting my 75 and 20 all revamped, ill show u my hc growth rate soon, also lots of plants up for grabs soon, the tank is about to explode bc i havent trimmed it. stargrass, rotala sp green, taiwan/java/errect moss, l aromatica and giant baby tears up for grabs. Good luck bud, keep up with the updates.


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## DaFishMan

Your setup is looking great ! The first I've seen all HC. The driftwood ties in nicely.

I have to try and revive and grow a couple small moss samples, and also want a place to put my spare crypts. I may try something emerse in the near future. What are you using for substrate ?

JimmyJam I'd be down for a bit of erect moss when you have avail


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## Evans11

DaFishMan said:


> I have to try and revive and grow a couple small moss samples, and also want a place to put my spare crypts. I may try something emerse in the near future. What are you using for substrate ?


I'm using eco-complete.

Jimmyjam - I'll also be interested in some flame/erect moss when you have it available. I want to attach it to the driftwood in the photo.

Thanks for the all comments.

Brian


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## Byronicle

this is what i read from this aquarium plant magazine i bought at chapters 

ok so emmersed it uses 10000 times more co2 than it would submersed
apparently it will fully cycle once you are done
crypts, swordtails, anubias and most foreground plants grow well, unlike stem plants
where light is normally dispersed and deflected when going through water, the light has no barrier or obstacles so it directly hits the plants.

Btw your carpet of HC looks great, i think you are good to go and fill 'er up


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## Byronicle

Hey I am also doing this method so I was wondering how exactly do you keep the tank humid?!


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## Evans11

Byronicle said:


> Hey I am also doing this method so I was wondering how exactly do you keep the tank humid?!


I have a glass lid on the tank that thats holds in the moisture and I mist it every other day or so with water from my 29 gallon planted tank. (using a spray bottle I bought at the dollar store)

I have also read that plastic Saran wrap works too. (although I haven't tried it personally).

Brian


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## jimmyjam

i just tied some errect down but the co2 tank dried up ..and wont get co2 till tue so maybe another week, I have a question for u guys.. how long does ur tank last for. mine died outa no where this time, i have a 5 lb tank which i just got a splitter for to feed 3 tanks, and it died in like 2 wks... weird.


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## DaFishMan

Did you leak test it ?


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## jimmyjam

how do u do that without dumping the whole thing into a bucket of water? using detergent?


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## DaFishMan

spray soapy water on it, check for bubbling.


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## Evans11

I finally got a 10lb C02 Tank and set up my pressurized system. (I got it from Norwood Fire Extinguisher in Etobicoke for $85 filled). I also decided to finally fill the tank with water.

Here's a photo of the tank with water.










Again here are the stats of the tank:
15 gallon
Aquatic Life Light Fixture Dual 24watt T5HO 
Eco-Complete Substrate
Eheim 2213 Filter
Pressurized C02

Hopefully the HC spreads out now and completely covers the substrate.

Anyone know if I should start dosing the water with Flourish or any other nutrients?

Also does anyone know where I can get a KH4 solution for my drop checker locally?

Thanks,
Brian


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## DaFishMan

Your tank is a stunner and the hc isn't even converted to aquatic form yet lol. 

Ok I'm not a plant wiz but you're beyond suggesting root tabs and a few drops of florapride.

May I suggest a few ml per day of Flourish Excel (pple use it for liquid co2 but the MAIN side unwritten side benefit people have found is helping prevent/combat algae). For nutrients, what you need, how much to dose also research EI Dosing using hydroponic ferts (Estimative Index), and Chuck's Calculator to help you measure those dosages.

A more expensive option is the Seachem Line of liquid nutrients, if you test your tank for potassium, iron, nitrate etc and e-mail to Seachem along with your tank setup info, they will tell you exactly how much of their product to dose, how often etc.. 

I'm not sure what your plants require since they're in emmerse form and about to convert to aquatic. I may assume the requirements are similar, but I know the Excel you could start right away, that in itself will give your plants a nice boost even though you're already using co2.


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## Evans11

DaFishMan said:


> Your tank is a stunner and the hc isn't even converted to aquatic form yet lol.


Thanks.....We'll see what happens once it converts to aquatic form. Hopefully it remains a "stunner". lol



DaFishMan said:


> May I suggest a few ml per day of Flourish Excel (pple use it for liquid co2 but the MAIN side unwritten side benefit people have found is helping prevent/combat algae).


I'm starting to dose with Excel in addition to the pressurized C02 and I'm also dosing with Seachem Flourish. I'll have to get a proper test kit to test all the other levels. PH is currently at 6.6.

I still need to find some DKH 4 solution for my drop checker so if anyone can let me know where to get it locally it would be appreciated. 

This is my first attempt at an HC carpet as the focal point in a tank so any feedback is appreciated.

Brian


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## jimmyjam

*hey*

k... I would go out and get yourself some dry ferts from hydroponic store, or buy it online. You need nitrate, phosphate and potassium, and csm+b.. make your own squirt bottles. You do need to look up the whole dry ferts online to get a feel for ei and other methods of dosing. I tried them all, but the thing is that as your tank matures, the need changes, so I look at how much different algae I am getting. More hair algae= too much phosphate, more glass stuck on green algae= too much nitrate. But you def need to keep the nitrate up for hc, they are def nitrate lovers.

how much are you guys getting refills for . mine is 26 bucks for a 5 lber.. too expensive?


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## gucci17

Evans11 said:


> I still need to find some DKH 4 solution for my drop checker so if anyone can let me know where to get it locally it would be appreciated.


There's a member on these boards who does have access to some dkh4 soultion that they cooked up at a lab I believe. Perhaps he can chime in


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## Evans11

jimmyjam said:


> But you def need to keep the nitrate up for hc, they are def nitrate lovers.


What ppm of Nitrate would you recommend?

Do I slowly increase the amount of Nitrate to my desired ppm level over time, or can I up the level in one large dose?


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## jimmyjam

mines at about 8-10 most of the time.. As long as your tank is healthy you shouldnt have too much probs with algae... and of course raise it steadily over a few days.


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## Evans11

Thanks for the replys.

So as for dosing, I am currently using the Seachem line. (Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Trace) and experimenting with the dosing amounts. 
I haven't created a full fledged algae bloom yet but I have noticed a small amount of BGA on the HC and some brown algae on the glass by the substrate. Both were easily removed and i'm guessing were caused by me overdosing either Nitrate or Phosphate.
Live and learn.

As for the C02 I have finally managed to get it to remain around 30 ppm. I usually measure the PH and Kh levels to determine the C02 level. Is this the most accurate method?

I recently added a couple Amano shrimp as well and they seem happy.

As for the HC, it is filling in nicely and becoming a much thicker carpet. It "pearls" heavily every evening which is a joy to watch.










































Next i'll be attaching some sort of moss to the driftwood. I'm thinking Flame Moss or Xmas Moss but am looking for suggestions.

Thanks for looking. 

Brian


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## Byronicle

looks great, that is really funny because im doing the dry method for my hc cuba right now, and i hav the same type of driftwood and planning to put taiwan moss or some fast growing moss attached to the wood to make it look like a tree. I would like to know how you plan to attach the moss to the "branches"?


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## Evans11

Byronicle said:


> I would like to know how you plan to attach the moss to the "branches"?


I'm planning on using black/brown thin sewing thread to tie the moss to the branches. Once the moss grows, you won't be able to see the thead.

Is your tank a 75 gallon? I'd be interested in seeing some pics of your progress as you go along.

One tip I can give you is to make sure you don't have too much water in the substrate. I found that the HC grew better where I misted it vs at the front of my tank where the water level was a little higher. If the water gets near the surface of your substrate (from daily misting) use a papertowel to soak up the excess water.


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## DaFishMan

The tank is lookin great 

Make sure if you use thread, to use nylon thread. The cotton thread distinegrates too fast. Fishing line also works. Blossom also mentions a type of crazy glue used in fragging, which would mean it's fish-safe. I have a fissidens fontanus sample almost dead, want to try the glue to get it to a small piece of driftwood before it's too late lol.


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## Byronicle

Evans11 said:


> I'm planning on using black/brown thin sewing thread to tie the moss to the branches. Once the moss grows, you won't be able to see the thead.
> 
> Is your tank a 75 gallon? I'd be interested in seeing some pics of your progress as you go along.
> 
> One tip I can give you is to make sure you don't have too much water in the substrate. I found that the HC grew better where I misted it vs at the front of my tank where the water level was a little higher. If the water gets near the surface of your substrate (from daily misting) use a papertowel to soak up the excess water.


i want to put up pictures!! just need to find my camera!! along with my tv remote and housekeys!


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## DaFishMan

Found the glue at home depot and bought some to try. It's Loctite SuperGlue UltraGel. If you're going to use it wear gloves and maybe want to use tweezers or chopsticks to hold the moss in place as it bonds skin instantly.


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## Byronicle

DaFishMan said:


> Found the glue at home depot and bought some to try. It's Loctite SuperGlue UltraGel. If you're going to use it wear gloves and maybe want to use tweezers or chopsticks to hold the moss in place as it bonds skin instantly.


this Loctite SuperGlue UltraGel, it is aquarium safe and you can use it to glue on moss?!?!?!?!


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## DaFishMan

I don't know if you know of Blossom, but she used to use it for attaching frags in her marine tank. She used with moss and no ill effects. Still though I think I'd put in a separate container for 24 hrs just to be cautious and make sure it's cured, that's just me. I'm looking forward to gluing as opposed to tying, all i had was cotton thread which fell apart then I'd have to retie it.


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## planter

I'm just wondering what you used as a substrate and if you have to add any ferts during this process? 

The tank looks fantastic BTW.


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## Evans11

planter said:


> I'm just wondering what you used as a substrate and if you have to add any ferts during this process?


I used Eco-Complete Substrate but didn't add any ferts and it grew ok. I just misted with water from my 29 gallon planted tank. (which I didn't really dose at the time either).

I'm sure adding ferts wouldn't hurt the process but I've read other threads where people have accidentally damaged the HC from dosing with too high concentrations of ferts. (like fertilizer burning your lawn)

You don't need to add excell or C02 either as the HC can get C02 from the air in the tank. Just open the lid once in a while for C02 exchange.

I think any fine grained substrate would work ok, however, from my past experience, I would not recommend Flourite for HC.



planter said:


> The tank looks fantastic BTW.


Thank you!


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## planter

Thanks. I've grown it emersed before using soil. I tried with Eco complete but I think I burned it by adding too much ferts. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## Byronicle

DaFishMan said:


> I don't know if you know of Blossom, but she used to use it for attaching frags in her marine tank. She used with moss and no ill effects. Still though I think I'd put in a separate container for 24 hrs just to be cautious and make sure it's cured, that's just me. I'm looking forward to gluing as opposed to tying, all i had was cotton thread which fell apart then I'd have to retie it.


I will try this glue as well! I have moss that I want to attach to my tree. But would this work on other plants such as HC cuba?


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## planter

I've glued larger plants like aubias and java fern onto rock before and it worked like a charm. Using it for moss or HC sounds very tedious. Super glue is not something that you want to play with for a project like this.


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## DaFishMan

I know for my tiny bit of almost dead fissidens fontanus the glue sounds like a perfect option as the thread would prolly break it. Of course, I won't know till I try it. Also some objects (various tank decor, oddly shaped stones/driftwood, and smaller objects - can be very awkward for some people to tie with nylon thread or fishing line. 

If you have a large item to cover with moss you could sandwich the moss between the plastic mesh found at a craft store, cut to size before or after, then staple it to the wood.


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## bluekrissyspikes

i just super glued a bunch of stuff yesterday. it worked great. i just put glue on the wood where i wanted to stick the stuff, put the plant on and sprinkled water on it. wetting it cures it immediately. all my shrimp are still alive too, so no water issues afterwards. i used it for xmas and taiwan moss, some different types of java fern and a big bolbitus. i tried it with string first and it took like half an hour and didn't work. super glue and some water took five minutes.


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## Byronicle

bluekrissyspikes said:


> i just super glued a bunch of stuff yesterday. it worked great. i just put glue on the wood where i wanted to stick the stuff, put the plant on and sprinkled water on it. wetting it cures it immediately. all my shrimp are still alive too, so no water issues afterwards. i used it for xmas and taiwan moss, some different types of java fern and a big bolbitus. i tried it with string first and it took like half an hour and didn't work. super glue and some water took five minutes.


so super glue isn't toxic? lol what brand is this?

wait wait...we can use superglue?! in aquariums?!


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## bluekrissyspikes

Byronicle said:


> so super glue isn't toxic? lol what brand is this?
> 
> wait wait...we can use superglue?! in aquariums?!


nope, it's not toxic. it cures as soon as it gets wet so nothing (whatever makes that smell) can be released once it's hardened. as far as i know reef keepers have been using the stuff to place frags for years and years. i read about it a few times on another forum that i frequent. this is the first time i actually tried it myself, i was just getting too frustrated trying to tie things tight enough with thread.


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## Byronicle

bluekrissyspikes said:


> nope, it's not toxic. it cures as soon as it gets wet so nothing (whatever makes that smell) can be released once it's hardened. as far as i know reef keepers have been using the stuff to place frags for years and years. i read about it a few times on another forum that i frequent. this is the first time i actually tried it myself, i was just getting too frustrated trying to tie things tight enough with thread.


lol so what brand do you use? because i want to make a "tree" out of driftwood and super glue would be awesome


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## bluekrissyspikes

not sure. tube got thrown out. got it at zellers. just the cheap stuff.


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## Evans11

I've never really worked with moss in a tank before. 

Would Taiwan Moss look ok attached to driftwood or is Flame Moss a better choice? (I've used Java moss briefly in my other tank but it didn't look the best - in my opinion)

I'm choosing between the two as a couple of members have this readily available for sale. I thought about XMAS moss too but never really see it in the GTA.

I'm ready to buy the moss but want to know some opinions.

Thanks!


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## bluekrissyspikes

they are both nice, it depends what you like better. i got some x-mas moss on ebay for like $2 including shipping. if you have enough area to cover, why not get both?


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## Evans11

So here's a bit of an update. I ended up using Taiwan Moss tied to the driftwood with sewing thread. I just have to wait for it to grow out now for a more desired look. 
(Don't mind the blue drop checker as I had the C02 off prior to the photos. Generally my C02 level is between 24 - 33 PPM)




























Thanks for looking. 

Brian.


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## bluekrissyspikes

your pics r not workin


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## DaFishMan

The pics worked for me. Hoping to start my own emmerse tank soon. It won't be as fancy as this, some pots and trays.
I think this will be the only way to get a good amount of plants going to seed the other tanks. 

I love this tank ! What are the background plants ?

If I may ask, where did you get the Aquatic life 2x24w t5ho and was the price ok ? The legs on it does it have enough clearance to lift a glass lid a bit for feeding ?


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## Zebrapl3co

The moss doesn't look like a good fit. The rest of the tank looks great though. Have you heard of Fissidens fontanus? You might want to look into that.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Byronicle

Zebrapl3co said:


> The moss doesn't look like a good fit. The rest of the tank looks great though. Have you heard of Fissidens fontanus? You might want to look into that.


where would you get this fissidens fontanus?


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## gucci17

I agree with the fissadens or go with flame moss which is a little easier to get ahold of. Either of the two can be obtained through fellow hobbyist every so often. Or you can give it a shot on ebay from those asian based sellers.


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## Evans11

DaFishMan said:


> What are the background plants ?


I'm using Dwarf Hairgrass for the background plants.



DaFishMan said:


> If I may ask, where did you get the Aquatic life 2x24w t5ho and was the price ok ? The legs on it does it have enough clearance to lift a glass lid a bit for feeding ?


I got the Aquatic Life fixture at Big Als Scarborough for $149. I place the fixture directly on my glass lid so I am currently not using the legs.


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## Evans11

Zebrapl3co said:


> The moss doesn't look like a good fit. The rest of the tank looks great though. Have you heard of Fissidens fontanus? You might want to look into that.


I haven't seen the Fissidens Fontanus for sale recently. Keep in mind that the moss was just put in the tank yesterday. Once it grows and fills out, it should look better. If not I'll swap it out for something else.

Any other suggestions on adding additional plants? Or should I leave it as is using just HC, HairGrass and Taiwan Moss?


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## DaFishMan

Thanks 

Re the taiwan trimming it as close to the wood as you can then spreading the cuttings over the bare spots will promote better growth and uniform appearance. You may like it much more then.


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## 1dime

Sweet scape everything looks good but i think riccia tied up on the wood would be eye candy if you like handling the mess afterwards


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## Zebrapl3co

Byronicle said:


> where would you get this fissidens fontanus?


I know that JRS used to have them. Not sure if he still does. Actually, not sure if he is still active in this forum. I still see him post once in a while.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Darkblade48

Evans11 said:


> I'm using Dwarf Hairgrass for the background plants.


Where did you get your Dwarf Hairgrass from? It seems to nearly reach the top of your 15g tank.

The Dwarf Hairgrass I have in my 2.5g nano barely reaches to 3/4 the way up...


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## Evans11

Darkblade48 said:


> Where did you get your Dwarf Hairgrass from? It seems to nearly reach the top of your 15g tank.
> 
> The Dwarf Hairgrass I have in my 2.5g nano barely reaches to 3/4 the way up...


I got the Dwarf Hairgrass from Big Als Scarborough. I've never trimmed it but its growing etremely well.


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## DaFishMan

I've read references to Eleocharis acicularis (dwarf hairgrass) var. 'tall form', and 'giant', referred to in plant forums. 

It's most likely an incorrect term. Moving up the ladder there is Eleocharis caespitosissima (tall hairgrass). Then there's E vivipara (giant hairgrass) which is even taller. 

This would be perfect for the rear corner of my 25g ! May I buy some off you when you have any you could spare ? 
(I never buy from BA if I can get from Menagerie or local aquarists unless I'm desparate  )


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## Evans11

DaFishMan said:


> May I buy some off you when you have any you could spare ?


I'm thinking of tearing down this tank soon and starting a new and improved version in my 29 Gallon. I used this tank as a way for me to learn the process of growing HC. (But I get bored quick lol)

When I do make the change, I will give you some HairGrass free....no problem.

The HairGrass in the photos is about 6-7 inches tall. It may look taller as the back of the tank is slightly elevated.

Brian


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## DaFishMan

"When I do make the change, I will give you some HairGrass free....no problem."

TYVM  I hit scarb quite often.


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## Evans11

Here is a bit of an update just to show the growth of the Hairgrass and Taiwan Moss. I need to do some trimming as I have neglected the tank a little and allowed the hairgrass to take over. The HC is getting thicker too. You can no longer see the original rocks that are actually still in the tank. (buried by the HC)





































Thanks for looking!
Brian


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## Darkblade48

That is a lot of Hairgrass and HC!


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