# Altum Angel Raising



## carbonlist

I have read about altums for a month now. I bought the fish thinking I knew what I was doing but am starting to worry now. 

From what I have read these should be the ideal condition:
-pH 6
-82-82 F
-reduced flow on my HOBs
-minimum 12" in height
-lots of large plants

-I'm planning on feeding them dried bloodworms and NLS pellets.

Please add on or give tips as this is what I "found". I trust you guys much more.


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## TBemba

I think you have everything under control.

I hope you have a big tank they can get to be real monsters. They are aggressive once they get settled in. They like subdued lighting and tall tanks. Very nice fish. You should enjoy them.

How many did you get? how big are they?


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## bigfishy

Just a heads up!

If your looking for more altum angel, Frank's Aquarium selling 3"+ captive bred for $12.50 a piece


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## carbonlist

Maybe I should post and ask before I buy. I have a pair, with the male being 3.5" in body and the female being 3" body. I must add they have really nice long fins but the male has a few black specks. (I got them for 12.50 each) I can't ask for TOO much. lols.

They are in a 30 gallon right now and I have a 90 gallon filled with F1/2 African Cichlids that I'm trying to get rid of.


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## carbonlist

bigfishy said:


> Just a heads up!
> 
> If your looking for more altum angel, Frank's Aquarium selling 3"+ captive bred for $12.50 a piece


I got them at Frank's. xD. I had a nice talk with him as well. It turns out that most people in the fish hobby are too cheap to pay top dollars for top quality fish. After he comes back from his trip, he's only going to import 1-1.5$ dollar fish. This is the last of his altums, GBR, and apistos. Try to help that guy out. I'd hate to see a good LFS close down.


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## bigfishy

carbonlist said:


> I got them at Frank's. xD. I had a nice talk with him as well. It turns out that most people in the fish hobby are too cheap to pay top dollars for top quality fish. After he comes back from his trip, he's only going to import 1-1.5$ dollar fish. This is the last of his altums, GBR, and apistos. Try to help that guy out. I'd hate to see a good LFS close down.


You can't help him, unless you win the lottery and flush money into his store.

He rather sell a fish at cost (to make people happy) than making a profit! I can tell you those $12.50 angel is almost at cost (he's making like a few bucks) and that's goes for many fish in his store.


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## carbonlist

more questions... (btw Big Fishy, the ac70 if working flawlessly. Thanks)

the 2 long ventral fins are fraying a little, is that normal?
is the flow from a ac70 and an ac50 and a sponge filter overkill for 2 altums and 6 GBR? (the 2 species should be compatible right?)

I could move them to a 90 gallon, would that be better or is the 30 gallon sufficient.


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## bigfishy

carbonlist said:


> more questions... (btw Big Fishy, the ac70 if working flawlessly. Thanks)
> 
> the 2 long ventral fins are fraying a little, is that normal?
> is the flow from a ac70 and an ac50 and a sponge filter overkill for 2 altums and 6 GBR? (the 2 species should be compatible right?)
> 
> I could move them to a 90 gallon, would that be better or is the 30 gallon sufficient.


Frank said its normal for the fins and I have no clue on the compatible part


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## gucci17

I never knew altums were that cheap now...are these the same altums Mr. Amano has in his tank? Excuse my ignorance, I'm not very knowledgeable on angels. I really do like the ones in Amano's video and have always wanted to own some as well.


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## dl88dl

bigfishy said:


> Just a heads up!
> 
> If your looking for more altum angel, Frank's Aquarium selling 3"+ captive bred for $12.50 a piece


Wow, that is a great price for that size. Must make a trip to see Frank.


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## *Danny***

*altums and wild discus*

you guys know where I can get some quality wild discus in GTA.
I have my altumes for while ago, their are very healthy and eat like pig no any problem at all. Don't know how to post pictures here.


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## Bwhiskered

Most Altum Angels sold are not true Altums but a Peruvian wild scalare given the name altum to up the price and sales. Only a handful of people in the whole world have had them breed. Tank breed altums are probably scalares. They ship poorly and are hard to adjust to hard water conditions.


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## bigfishy

Bwhiskered said:


> Most Altum Angels sold are not true Altums but a Peruvian wild scalare given the name altum to up the price and sales. Only a handful of people in the whole world have had them breed. Tank breed altums are probably scalares. They ship poorly and are hard to adjust to hard water conditions.


He got the fish from Germany as captive bred thou


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## *Danny***

*Altum*

I do have both bred
P.altum and C.altum


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## Jung

$12.50 for captive bred altums? Unless things have changed dramatically, altums have been rarely bred. Post some pics of these "altums".

this is *NOT* an altum









These are TRUE young altums:









And these are about 4 yr old altums


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## Bwhiskered

bigfishy said:


> He got the fish from Germany as captive bred thou


I know that there is a breeder in Germany that does spawn true altums but $12.50 for true altums is unreal. Germany is not cheap to buy fish from especially for a fish with such a high demand.


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## TBemba

Bwhiskered said:


> I know that there is a breeder in Germany that does spawn true altums but $12.50 for true altums is unreal. Germany is not cheap to buy fish from especially for a fish with such a high demand.


Looks like you will have to make a trip down to see for yourself.

If they really are true Altums, pick me up 3 and i'll pay you 15$ each


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## bigfishy

Bwhiskered said:


> I know that there is a breeder in Germany that does spawn true altums but $12.50 for true altums is unreal. Germany is not cheap to buy fish from especially for a fish with such a high demand.


Like I said in my earlier post, Frank is a type of person that make fellow hobbists happy than making a profit

so $12.50 is almost at his cost!!!!

You people don't read sometimes x.x



I am heading to his store now and going to snap a few pic

good luck to me!!!


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## carbonlist

Based on the pictures given and past research, the altums I bought are TRUE altums. Thanks to Frank. He bought them when they were juvies and now they're monsters. He said he's going under the water selling at these prices. I believe him.


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## bigfishy

*P. Altum*

They are P. Altum and here are some pictures


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## dl88dl

Very nice Angels...wow 4 for $45. Thanks for posting the pics


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## carbonlist

Okay, so I had a GBR take a bite out of an altums' veil tail part. Will that grow back.

As a further note, I have already removed the GBR from the tank. I am heartbroken.


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## bigfishy

It should grow back!

Rumors are false about altum being kept with arowana and large fish, at least its false to me. My peacock bass is chasing them like food!


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## Jung

bigfishy said:


> They are P. Altum and here are some pictures


NOPE these are not true altums, they are regular p. scalare but as bwiskered mentioned, they are called Peru Altums to raise the price! IT's even labeled as Altum - Peruensis. Don't be fooled and think they are Pterophyllum altums!


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## bigfishy

how can they be false???

regular scalare or watever you call it their mouth is flat, these angels mouth are a bit curve, that's one of the feature distinguish them from Altum and Scalare thing


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## carbonlist

I did a little more research on the TRUE alums and scalares. The "altums" sold at Frank's are not true altums.


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## bigfishy

carbonlist said:


> I did a little more research on the TRUE alums and scalares. The "altums" sold at Frank's are not true altums.


What's the difference between Scalares and Altums then???



Really want to know!!! O_O

Altums have 3 sub species, 1 is P. Altum, 2 is C. Altum (high fins) and the last one is (I don't know)


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## carbonlist

To be honest I'm not sure if this is correct or not. I'll give it a go anyways. 

The difference: The TRUE altum species should show red spotting and a blueish green dorsal overcast instead of the grey/black we are seeing right now and when aroused exhibits a black operculum spot. 

There should also be an acute incision or notch above the nares ... althought the ones at Frank do have that... now I'm a little confused.

Frank's are only 4-5 months old...so maybe that's why they aren't exhibiting the coloured dorsal...


Someone please englighten me.


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## Jung

bigfishy said:


> What's the difference between Scalares and Altums then???
> 
> 
> 
> Really want to know!!! O_O
> 
> Altums have 3 sub species, 1 is P. Altum, 2 is C. Altum (high fins) and the last one is (I don't know)


-different shape, look at the pics I posted showing the young altums, P.altums are vertically higher, P.scalare are longer. 
-Look at the stripes, P. Altum has wider stripes, the peru altums have thinner stripes.
-and of course, the price...

Also note, P.altums grow massive compared to P.scalare, but you will rarely find large P.altums in stores.


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## bigfishy

carbonlist said:


> To be honest I'm not sure if this is correct or not. I'll give it a go anyways.
> 
> The difference: The TRUE altum species should show red spotting and a blueish green dorsal overcast instead of the grey/black we are seeing right now and when aroused exhibits a black operculum spot.
> 
> There should also be an acute incision or notch above the nares ... althought the ones at Frank do have that... now I'm a little confused.
> 
> Frank's are only 4-5 months old...so maybe that's why they aren't exhibiting the coloured dorsal...
> 
> Someone please englighten me.


mine is showing red! same batch!


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## carbonlist

Forget it. I trust Frank.


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## bigfishy

Jung said:


> -different shape, look at the pics I posted showing the young altums, P.altums are vertically higher, P.scalare are longer.
> -Look at the stripes, P. Altum has wider stripes, the peru altums have thinner stripes.
> -and of course, the price...
> 
> Also note, P.altums grow massive compared to P.scalare, but you will rarely find large P.altums in stores.


so if these so called P.scalcae grows up to 10"+, then you will see them as altum????



but the picture you show us is C.Altum, they are one of the only sub species that got high fins!

:O


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## Jung

bigfishy said:


> so if these so called P.scalcae grows up to 10"+, then you will see them as altum????
> 
> 
> 
> but the picture you show us is C.Altum, they are one of the only sub species that got high fins!
> 
> :O


You got these fish from the tank labeled "Altum - Peruensis" right?

what is C.altum?


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## bigfishy

this picture was pulled from the first site of googling!

P. Altum...

The bar doesn't look so wide as to compare to frank's...


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## Jung

carbonlist said:


> Forget it. I trust Frank.


The tank is labeled "Altum - Peruensis" , ie Peru altums (P.scalare), so I guess he isn't dishonest, if he never claimed them to be True altums (P.altum)


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## carbonlist

how much would you feed these guys? They tend to eat slower...

I see eggs!!! ALREADY!! on the filter intake for some reason...I have plenty of plants...


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## bigfishy

forget it too! *headache*

I hate cichla... >.<;;

probably used the sub family name as Cichlasomatinae, but that an overall of all cichla fish



It is Pterophyllum... Altum.. I got it.. (but in my mind, I am still confused, just like peacock bass and datnoids, crazy combination)

The search continues!!!!


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## bigfishy

Jung said:


> The tank is labeled "Altum - Peruensis" , ie Peru altums (P.scalare), so I guess he isn't dishonest, if he never claimed them to be True altums (P.altum)


Your right! After hours searching in the net and in library, Peruvian Altum is not a true Altum

Here is an article from an expert point of view... (click on link)

http://finarama.com/tba/chronicles/peruvianscalare.htm

I am going to ask for a refund tomorrow, since he said they were true Altums


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## carbonlist

mmm...I'm keeping mine as they look pretty good. I think I might go back for some discounted apistos and GBR as well. I recently got my paycheck xD


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## gucci17

Looking at the pics you took, they don't look like the '_true altums'_ that I've seen online...

Someone like MOON should chime in here, as I rememeber he had some imported in a long time ago when I talked to him a few years back. I can't remember what he paid but it was definitely not cheap...

I would think $12.50 is way below cost IMO.


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## Zebrapl3co

carbonlist said:


> ...From what I have read these should be the ideal condition:
> ...
> -minimum 12" in height
> ...


Not sure where you are getting this from but who every said this make the mistaken assumption that they are just an angle fish.
A true P. Altum grows much longer than this. You need at least a 3' that is 36" tall tank to propertly house a full grown altum. Otherwise, their ventral fins will keep brushing against the bottom of the tank or gravel eventually causing fungus development.

Lastly, the one from Frank's are definately not P Altum. Sorry.
I used to own a pair of P. Altum. You can tell them apart at a glance. True P. Altum have a very very tall fin.
The big difference between a Scalar and a true P. Altum is that only a hand full of people on this planet can breed P. Altum. I would say not more than 20 people. I know of none in Canada. The rest are all wild caught in the amazon.
This makes a P Altum extremely rare and hard to get.
Scalar? Although they are not as common as Angles, they are breed every where.

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## Jung

full grown altums are a rare sight, and imo one of the most impressive sights in freshwater keeping! I remember a few years ago when Big Als Missisauga had their huge display tank. They had a group of full grown altums, they were easily over 12" tall! Too bad they all got diseased and died True altums are as difficult, if not more difficult, to keep than discus.


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## montelovers

Wow... well, we purchased a breeding pair of Altums Frank had in his upper tank.. he only had about 6-8 of them in there two weekends ago and sure enough, they spawned in our tank at home and we got wigglers. So now, we're not really sure how to advertise them when they grow up.. any thoughts? for sure not true altums but more the P. Altums?


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## carbonlist

just advertise them as Peruensis Scalare and also known as P. Altums. I believe the standard price is 5$ for a toonie.


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## Zebrapl3co

Jung said:


> full grown altums are a rare sight, and imo one of the most impressive sights in freshwater keeping! I remember a few years ago when Big Als Missisauga had their huge display tank. They had a group of full grown altums, they were easily over 12" tall! Too bad they all got diseased and died True altums are as difficult, if not more difficult, to keep than discus.


That is not surprising. It's very difficult to handle _Pterophyllum Altum._ They are very difficult to aclimitized, about 1 out of 5 will died, sometimes the entire batch will develope columnaris and perish. Being wild caught, most will demand live food such as live brime shrimp. At the very least, they demand frozen blood worms. I was able to slowly ween mine into eating pellets. But I suspect they've been eating my endlers on the side, as the endler population in that tank keeps dwindling.
They also freak out very easily, so you need tall plants in the tank for them to hind in. There are lots of stories about them ramming in to the tank glass and die from the shock when you turn on the lights.



montelovers said:


> Wow... well, we purchased a breeding pair of Altums Frank had in his upper tank.. he only had about 6-8 of them in there two weekends ago and sure enough, they spawned in our tank at home and we got wigglers. So now, we're not really sure how to advertise them when they grow up.. any thoughts? for sure not true altums but more the P. Altums?


Sorry, but I think I was misleading you. True Altum = _Pterophyllum Altum_
or the P. Altums I was mentioning. You shouldn't sell them as P. Altum as that will just add to the confusion and you'll end up with a piss-off customer. Have your Altum ID propertly, they are most likely a cross sometimes called _Pterophyllum scalare Altum_ or simply what I call a Scalare Altum or Peruvian Altum or what ever. They are a hybrid of the true P. Atlum with something (possible simple angle fish). They lost a majority of the majestic colours of a P. Alum and are half as tall; possibly 2/3 as tall if they line breed them, with fat round body.



carbonlist said:


> just advertise them as Peruensis Scalare and also known as P. Altums. I believe the standard price is 5$ for a toonie.


Err ... see above, Puruensis Scalare is fine, but again, P. Altum would be misleading.

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## montelovers

I certainly want to identify them properly.. that's for sure.
I know we bought these from Frank 2 weekends ago. He had a big tank with 8 or 10 of them in there... it was a top tank in the left portion of his store near the door. I just don't remember how he identified them on the tank which is the reason why I was asking.


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## bigfishy

montelovers said:


> I certainly want to identify them properly.. that's for sure.
> I know we bought these from Frank 2 weekends ago. He had a big tank with 8 or 10 of them in there... it was a top tank in the left portion of his store near the door. I just don't remember how he identified them on the tank which is the reason why I was asking.


I will take a picture for you tomorrow after work for a proper ID


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## carbonlist

I went there 3 weeks ago. He said they were the exact same as the bottom tank except a little larger.


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## carbonlist

So after I found out that I bought scalares instead of the real deal, I tried my luck with aquabid and was able to acquire 4 2" true altums at 15 each + 9 shipping and 5 for miscellaneous fees (totalling $74). 

And GOSH do they look magnificent. They're breathtaking and absolutely different from the ones at Frank's. It even came with instructions on how to acclimate, care, feed, temp, pH, everything.

The ones I have are F1s and are probably better than wild in my opinion. Their parents came from Peru and were bred in France. Then the F1s were sent to Canada and distributed.

For those who are interested:

Info on the water:


Temp 84.
pH 6.1
GH <5
KH <5
Nitrates <5


These were done using my chemistry tests..

Breeding info:

increase or decrease temperature by 2F
slowly decrease water level over a week until the tank is only half full (you need a 3-4 ft tall tank) and then top up with carbon filtered rain water all the way to the top
method 3 is reduce feeding to a half for a week and then double feeding amounts for a week.

The info was found in my styrofoam box containing the altums.

Enjoy.


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## Zebrapl3co

carbonlist said:


> ....The ones I have are F1s and are probably better than wild in my opinion. Their parents came from* Peru* and were bred in France. Then the F1s were sent to Canada and distributed...


Umm ... ! _Pterophyllum Altum_ are only found in Rio ***** and Rio Orinocco. They are only exported from Venezuela, Brazil and Colombia. Peru do not export _Pterophyllum Altum_, they export Scalare Altum ....

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## Altumnut

carbonlist said:


> So after I found out that I bought scalares instead of the real deal, I tried my luck with aquabid and was able to acquire 4 2" true altums at 15 each + 9 shipping and 5 for miscellaneous fees (totalling $74).
> 
> And GOSH do they look magnificent. They're breathtaking and absolutely different from the ones at Frank's. It even came with instructions on how to acclimate, care, feed, temp, pH, everything.
> 
> The ones I have are F1s and are probably better than wild in my opinion. Their parents came from Peru and were bred in France. Then the F1s were sent to Canada and distributed.
> 
> For those who are interested:
> 
> Info on the water:
> 
> Temp 84.
> pH 6.1
> GH <5
> KH <5
> Nitrates <5
> 
> These were done using my chemistry tests..
> 
> Breeding info:
> 
> increase or decrease temperature by 2F
> slowly decrease water level over a week until the tank is only half full (you need a 3-4 ft tall tank) and then top up with carbon filtered rain water all the way to the top
> method 3 is reduce feeding to a half for a week and then double feeding amounts for a week.
> 
> The info was found in my styrofoam box containing the altums.
> 
> Enjoy.


Hi carbonlist,

The fish you bought on Aqua Bid are F1 Peruvian Altums...sorry bud.
One recent reported successful spawn of the True Pterophyllum Altum and the other two years back from a Czech Breeder Petr Hák from Linke line Altums. First are F2 and second F3. And there is no way in hell they would be on Aqua bid or in Canada.
Sorry again and good luck,

...Ralph


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## TBemba

I have seen True Altums in Ontario a Guy I knew had 6 of these monsters and they were pretty expensive I think he paid $100 each and at the time thought it was a great deal.

When you see them they are not hard to forget what they look like and they are very tall with major finage. They made full grown 6+ inch Discus look like babies. Also they are pretty aggressive, I would be surprised to see any of them that were not WC and Adults.

If they breed then I would be suspect


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## dl88dl

TBemba said:


> I have seen True Altums in Ontario a Guy I knew had 6 of these monsters and they were pretty expensive I think he paid $100 each and at the time thought it was a great deal.
> 
> When you see them they are not hard to forget what they look like and they are very tall with major finage. They made full grown 6+ inch Discus look like babies. Also they are pretty aggressive, I would be surprised to see any of them that were not WC and Adults.
> 
> If they breed then I would be suspect


Altumnut - Ralph has a group of true Altums and they are the biggest I have ever seen...they are huge


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## dl88dl

Altumnut said:


> Hi carbonlist,
> 
> The fish you bought on Aqua Bid are F1 Peruvian Altums...sorry bud.
> One recent reported successful spawn of the True Pterophyllum Altum and the other two years back from a Czech Breeder Petr Hák from Linke line Altums. First are F2 and second F3. And there is no way in hell they would be on Aqua bid or in Canada.
> Sorry again and good luck,
> 
> ...Ralph


Welcome to GTAA 
Wow that sucks he paid too much for just Peruvian Altums 
BTW, how are your true Altums doing?


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## bigfishy

Zebrapl3co said:


> Umm ... ! _Pterophyllum Altum_ are only found in Rio ***** and Rio Orinocco. They are only exported from Venezuela, Brazil and Colombia. Peru do not export _Pterophyllum Altum_, they export Scalare Altum ....


Oh boy! And I thought peacock bass were hard to ID. I will never ever touch angels again!!!



Btw, I got back my money!


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## carbonlist

I guess I paid for an expensive lesson. However, the ones I bought from aquabid do look like true altums (maybe not F1 or where they came from). I'll let you guys know in 4 months when they exhibit nice finnage.

Brian (life is nothing but a journey of experiences)


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## carbonlist

hmm...I think I'm going to sell them. I advertised them as peruensis scalare F1 and somebody offered me my paid price within 30mins of putting the ad up.

Does it sound fishy to you guys?


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## Altumnut

Hey Dave,

It's been a long time. Hope all is OK.
My original Altums are still doing OK....they are about 7 yrs old.
I also did get another group last year and are growing out nicely.

The picture in my avitar is one of mine about 4 years back.

...Ralph


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## dl88dl

Altumnut said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> It's been a long time. Hope all is OK.
> My original Altums are still doing OK....they are about 7 yrs old.
> I also did get another group last year and are growing out nicely.
> 
> The picture in my avitar is one of mine about 4 years back.
> 
> ...Ralph


Hey Ralph, I am doing good and so are my fishy. Wow, another group now I see why you are called Altumnut


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## carbonlist

Hey Ralph, I just got my paycheck and am itching to spend it. lols. Can you tell me where you got your altums? I'm planning on setting another tank up. A little more info on the parameters will be nice as well.


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## Altumnut

carbonlist said:


> Hey Ralph, I just got my paycheck and am itching to spend it. lols. Can you tell me where you got your altums? I'm planning on setting another tank up. A little more info on the parameters will be nice as well.


Hey Carbonlist,

I get my fish from www.belowwater.com who just sent me the July price list.
He has what he calls small which is approx. quarter size body juvie Altums for $25 ea or $20 ea if you buy 10 or more. You will have to e-mail him for any further instructions. 
There is too much you should know to just post on here...so i highly recommend you go to www.finarama.com and read till your hearts content.
The water parameter should be the most important along with very high airflow. The young size Oliver is offering tends to ship well.
Read...Read...Read and Read again before you make a commitment.

Good Luck,
...Ralph


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## bigfishy

carbonlist said:


> Hey Ralph, I just got my paycheck and am itching to spend it. lols. Can you tell me where you got your altums? I'm planning on setting another tank up. A little more info on the parameters will be nice as well.


If your planning to get 10+, want to sell me a few (2-3)???



Peacock Bass + Altums will look amazing, since they came from the same river.


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## carbonlist

I want to buy 2-3 as well. Maybe a group buy? I am waiting for a reply from belowwater right now. 

as a side note, I caught 2 1lb peacock bass this morning in Waterloo. They're being driven to my house as I type.  I wonder how much these guys are worth..


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## bigfishy

carbonlist said:


> I want to buy 2-3 as well. Maybe a group buy? I am waiting for a reply from belowwater right now.
> 
> as a side note, I caught 2 1lb peacock bass this morning in Waterloo. They're being driven to my house as I type.  I wonder how much these guys are worth..


If it's really nice, I'd might buy it and you will get yourself some free altums



There are too many kinds, so I need a picture to ID

ranging from $40 to $1000+


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## Altumnut

Some tips & advice for this year's first time altum keepers.

http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1813&start=0&postdays=&postorder=&highlight=

Hope this helps,
...Ralph


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## arapaimag

carbonlist said:


> I want to buy 2-3 as well. Maybe a group buy? I am waiting for a reply from belowwater right now. .


Oliver is at the ACA (American Cichlid Association) in Milwaukee this weekend where he is a guest speaker. He is stopping by my house on Tuesday on his way back to Montreal. So if he has not gotten back to you that is probably the reason.

Good luck with your Altums when you get them.


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## carbonlist

I just "spoke" with Oliver and he said that he is sold out at the moment but will be receiving some in 1-2 months.

If you are interested in a group order, please give me a pm or reply to thread.

Me - 3
BigFishy 2-3
.....
...
..


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## Zebrapl3co

Oh, that's weird. His (Oliver/below water) July list still indicated that he still have some P. Altums.
They are really small though, I won't put them in the same tank with bigger fish or other aggressive fish for that matter.

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## dl88dl

carbonlist said:


> I want to buy 2-3 as well. Maybe a group buy? I am waiting for a reply from belowwater right now.
> 
> as a side note, I caught 2 1lb peacock bass this morning in Waterloo. They're being driven to my house as I type.  I wonder how much these guys are worth..


Any pics of the Pbass? Thx


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## carbonlist

the 2 didn't make it home. They started floating upside down by the time I got home. (shouldn't had made that stupid mcdonald detour/check my e-mail)

(edit) but they did make good dinner.


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## dl88dl

carbonlist said:


> the 2 didn't make it home. They started floating upside down by the time I got home. (shouldn't had made that stupid mcdonald detour/check my e-mail)
> 
> (edit) but they did make good dinner.


That is too bad but at least it fill your stomach 
BTW, did it taste good


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## arapaimag

carbonlist said:


> I just "spoke" with Oliver and he said that he is sold out at the moment but will be receiving some in 1-2 months.
> 
> If you are interested in a group order, please give me a pm or reply to thread.
> 
> Me - 3
> BigFishy 2-3
> .....
> ...
> ..


I might be interested in the real Altum when he gets them in. He was at my house yesterday with Matthias Kahlig (owner of Kahlig Antriebstechnik Gmbh a huge pump and motor manufacturer in Hannover Germany) from 3pm till after 8pm showing a new circulating pump he is distributing in Canada. A few members of the Brant Aquaria Society, Cambridge Aquarium Society, Kitchener Waterloo Society and Hamilton Aquarium Society where also present. Jerry Draper a member of a couple of those clubs and owner of The Tropical Fish Room also came as did Daniel Nyguyen co owner of Aquatic Kingdom and Jeff Mountjoy a territory sales manager for Martin's Mills Inc Pet foods.

The pump was very powerful and used only around 350 watts while moving up to 50,000 gallons an hour. It also could create waves and can even duplicate a tide. The pump sells for around $4,000 and a smaller version will be available for about $800 in a few months for tanks under 1,000 gallons.

Oliver had just come from the ACA and had a meeting at The Toronto Zoo yesterday morning to show the pump. When he left my place he was on his way to New York City to sell a few pumps. I am not sure when he is returning home to Montreal.


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## bigfishy

arapaimag said:


> The pump was very powerful and used only around 350 watts while moving up to 50,000 gallons an hour. It also could create waves and can even duplicate a tide. The pump sells for around $4,000 and a smaller version will be available for about $800 in a few months for tanks under 1,000 gallons.
> 
> Oliver had just come from the ACA and had a meeting at The Toronto Zoo yesterday morning to show the pump. When he left my place he was on his way to New York City to sell a few pumps. I am not sure when he is returning home to Montreal.


Got a picture or video of the pump???



350 watt for 50k GPH, thats AMAZING!


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## fishlover1

carbonlist said:


> I just "spoke" with Oliver and he said that he is sold out at the moment but will be receiving some in 1-2 months.
> 
> If you are interested in a group order, please give me a pm or reply to thread.
> 
> Me - 3
> BigFishy 2-3
> .....
> ...
> ..


Did you mean 1-2 weeks???
Altum season will be over in less than 2 months.


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## arapaimag

bigfishy said:


> Got a picture or video of the pump???
> 
> 
> 
> 350 watt for 50k GPH, thats AMAZING!


 Sorry no pics of the pump because he said he had brochures but didn't. He will link me info when he has time.


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## carbonlist

Oliver said "in a bit (1 month)" so I assumed 1-2 months to be on the safe side.

With regards to how the peacock bass tasted, it was very similar to sea bass but fishier and softer textured. Nothing special in comparison to supermarket bass. (they were steamed by the way)


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## TBemba

BA's Kitchener Is to have Pterophyllum altum for sale.


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## Altumnut

Well i just recieved Oliver's list for August.....No Altum's on the list yet.


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## Ebi-Ken

If your looking for True Altums, Canadian Aquatics has them and they are gorgeous! http://www.canadianaquatics.com/stock/stock.htm


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## TBemba

Jiang604 said:


> If your looking for True Altums, Canadian Aquatics has them and they are gorgeous! http://www.canadianaquatics.com/stock/stock.htm


if I was going to order from them I would get South American lung fish - Special discount - $45/2 I would have to find someone to take the 2nd one but I figure I could find someone....


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## Altumnut

There are only 3 available.


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## carbonlist

I was kind of angry when I saw the list as well. I'll go check at BA's. Does anyone know the price?


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## *Danny***

carbonlist said:


> I was kind of angry when I saw the list as well. I'll go check at BA's. Does anyone know the price?


35$ for 2 at BA Vaughan, but the fishes very weak and....


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## carbonlist

that's a very good price...hmmm...weak and...?


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## carbonlist

are these altums?


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## Altumnut

carbonlist said:


> are these altums?


I would say "Yes" however the ones you see in video are generations from:
The first claim of tank bred Altums is by german breeder and explorer Horst Linke. He documented his achievement and published it in das aquarium. Today, some farms (czech, japanese,...) have generations derived from Linke's pair. From F3 upwards, the altums carry the broken bar syndrome... common with inbreeding:
Today, bred altums are either from Linke or Siegrist lines. Check this german site to see successfull breeding from such generations.
http://www.skalarezucht.de/

...Ralph


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## arapaimag

I was at Big Al's Kitchener yesterday and they had sold all their Altums.

I did speak to one person who had bought 6 of them and he told me they were fantastic quality and 8" tall. Apparently a single customer bought almost all of the rest of them (more than a dozen).

Anthony the owner of that store said he will bring in more if they are on the list (1 to 2 months) and will phone me before they arrive with a heads up.

If you want some let me know and how many. You can always back out if the price is too high.

Remember they are not as hardy as regular angels. Study their water parameters and tank size required before buying them. Most people who buy Altums lose them........

I have visited many peoples homes who claim to have owned them but I have never seen a live one in their tanks when I was actually there.


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## carbonlist

I'm looking for 3 altums for around 60$. If you find any, let me know.


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## arapaimag

carbonlist said:


> I'm looking for 3 altums for around 60$. If you find any, let me know.


I'm hoping that they will not be more than that before taxes also.

List so far

1.Arapaimag 10 (Aug 23) 
2.Carbonlist 3 (aug 23)


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## carbonlist

Depending on the price, I might buy 5-8.


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## Lee_D

I was just at the Big Al's in Calgary. They have a Tank labeled Altums. They look like regular Angel fish to me. My guess is they are Peruvian. 19.99 each, 30 bucks a pair. About the size of a twonie.

Lee


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## Lee_D

I went back to Big Al's in Calgary. I asked the lady there and she said they were Peruvian Altums. She also admited they were scalares. Ok, Fine. I still kind of like them. My question is... How big do they get if they are not true Altums? I've currently got a 20 inch tall 50 gallon. I will soon have a 22 inch deep 125 gallon. I'm wondering if they will fit. Hopefully i figured out how to attach the picture I took...

Lee


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## carbonlist

below water's oliver just sent an e-mail saying them have altums but "there is no guarantee". What does that mean?


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## Altumnut

carbonlist said:


> below water's oliver just sent an e-mail saying them have altums but "there is no guarantee". What does that mean?


Basically.....Oliver is saying that he will not guarantee Altums days after they arrive alive. They will ship and arrive alive......but then aquarist do something wrong and fish die a week later and try to ask him for credit or money back.
Hope that answers you question,

...Ralph


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## acropora1981

posted this on another thread but - if anyone wants to pool shipping on an order from Oliver at Belowwater then please let me know.


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## carbonlist

I'm in for 2 altums, if we get enough interest to bring the price down to 20/altum.


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## acropora1981

Ok. Im in for at least 10 false altums (rio nanay), but I'm not ordering any true altums. Still would like to pool shipping.


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## carbonlist

acropora1981 said:


> Ok. Im in for at least 10 false altums (rio nanay), but I'm not ordering any true altums. Still would like to pool shipping.


you know what, count me in for 4 false altums and no real ones. I don't think I'm ready for them yet. Tanks aren't at the pristine conditions that altums need. Let me know when you're going to purchase and how much shipping is. My male F4 killed his breeding partner. I'm not happy...


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## acropora1981

carbonlist said:


> you know what, count me in for 4 false altums and no real ones. I don't think I'm ready for them yet. Tanks aren't at the pristine conditions that altums need. Let me know when you're going to purchase and how much shipping is. My male F4 killed his breeding partner. I'm not happy...


Awesome, I will let you know as soon as I know a)when its due to come in and b)what the final cost will be.

Carbonlist are you in Toronto or where abouts?

Yeah false are a)almost as nice and b)much much less of a headache!

Anybody else?


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## acropora1981

so its min $200 order (not too big of a problem), and $55 shipping (reasonable I think!). He is going away for 3 weeks, and today is the last day for shipping so we will have to wait until he returns, and I'm cool with that.


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## Lee_D

Pterophyllum leopoldi tall silver angel, false altum Nanay md $ 10.00 8 @ $ 8.00 

Are these the fish you are discussing? From what I am reading leopoldi are the smallest of the pterophyllum's. They are also the most active. Any idea how big these ones will get?

I'm asking because I'm interested in joining in on your order if thats ok. I just want to make sure they won't out grow the tank.

Lee


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## carbonlist

They're just slightly taller than a normal p. scalare. you'll need 18" + of height. Check the first post for more parameter details.


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## Lee_D

Ok. This looks like it should be within my capabilities. Can I get in on the order? I've got room for six of the false Altums. Any info on the delivery?

Lee


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## dl88dl

Dragon King on Steeles & Kennedy just got in 10 F1 Altums with body size about 4". Biggest ones so far I see for sale in a lfs....no price yet


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## acropora1981

Lee_D said:


> Ok. This looks like it should be within my capabilities. Can I get in on the order? I've got room for six of the false Altums. Any info on the delivery?
> 
> Lee


Hey Lee,

We can place the order at the end of September, the fellow who we can order from is away until then. You can PM me for further details.


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## sophiachan88

*altum angel*

Hi every altum lover i saw some at Aquapets 416-292-1688 bodysize about 1.5" fin is very different than the normal angel can some altum lover find out is that a true p altum and can some expert teach me how to keep the PH at 6
PH down? peatmoss driftwood?
Thanks 
Sophia


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## bigfishy

dl88dl said:


> Dragon King on Steeles & Kennedy just got in 10 F1 Altums with body size about 4". Biggest ones so far I see for sale in a lfs....no price yet


$120 each



I almost brought them last night


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## TBemba

bigfishy said:


> $120 each
> 
> 
> 
> I almost brought them last night


Can I ask what you do for a living?

I wish I made enough money to be able to contemplate 1200$ worth of fish.


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## bigfishy

TBemba said:


> Can I ask what you do for a living?
> 
> I wish I made enough money to be able to contemplate 1200$ worth of fish.


I have 3 different jobs, but my favorite one is to watch numbers in a computer screen going up and down 

I only saw a few (3-4) in the main discus tank, but when I thought about I only have a 55, I turned away


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## gucci17

bigfishy said:


> I have 3 different jobs, but my favorite one is to watch numbers in a computer screen going up and down
> 
> I only saw a few (3-4) in the main discus tank, but when I thought about I only have a 55, I turned away


How do you have time to trade and work at other jobs?

Last week when I dropped by I think they still have around 8. I guess someone picked up a few.

Did you pick up your zebra tig from them as well?


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## bigfishy

Saturday! Part time! Multi-Tasking!  (That's what the laptop is for)

That's all I am going to say, this is an open public forum, I don't want "SOME CERTAIN" people knows so much about my other life 

Anyway, I didn't get the tigrinus from Dragon King, it came from my friend's 180G tank





gucci17 said:


> How do you have time to trade and work at other jobs?
> 
> Last week when I dropped by I think they still have around 8. I guess someone picked up a few.
> 
> Did you pick up your zebra tig from them as well?


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## dl88dl

gucci17 said:


> How do you have time to trade and work at other jobs?
> 
> Last week when I dropped by I think they still have around 8. I guess someone picked up a few.
> 
> People will buy them since they are F1 and keep in tap water and you don't often see these size of Altums for sale in lfs


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## Altumnut

Unless someone can positively give you documentary proof that they are F1, and what breeder they came from...then I really doubt there F1 or true altums for that matter. There is a lot of false identity out there these days.
Did I read that correctly as being $120 ea

...Ralph


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## dl88dl

Jung said:


> And these are about 4 yr old altums


The ones at Dragon King looks like these in the pictures and they said it was F1. They have 7 left...3 die


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## Altumnut

Zebrapl3co said:


> Umm ... ! _Pterophyllum Altum_ are only found in Rio ***** and Rio Orinocco. They are only exported from Venezuela, Brazil and Colombia. Peru do not export _Pterophyllum Altum_, they export Scalare Altum ....


I'm going to have to agree with Peter on this one.
Altums for many years are being sold, as that but is not the true Pterophyllum Altum. 
There is still no sufficient proof of 2 wild Pterophyllum Altum as being bred in captivity. There are however hybrids which are circling the globe and sold as true altums.
So unless the seller gave you documentary evidence&#8230;what you have is not what you paid for.

&#8230;Ralph


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## Altumnut

Dave,

The ones at Dragons are Rio ***** Altum like these ones. The small ones to the upper right are W/C Pterophyllum Altum.

...Ralph


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## TBemba

Altumnut said:


> Dave,
> 
> The ones at Dragons are Rio ***** Altum like these ones. The small ones to the upper right are W/C Pterophyllum Altum.
> 
> ...Ralph


Wow  Those are nice I think I would want them over Pterophyllum's how big do they get?


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## Altumnut

Well Dave posted that there are 7 left at Dragon King.
Go get them...

...Ralph


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## TBemba

Altumnut said:


> Well Dave posted that there are 7 left at Dragon King.
> Go get them...
> 
> ...Ralph


@ 120 bones each 

Little too rich for my blood


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## doramide7

bigfishy said:


> You can't help him, unless you win the lottery and flush money into his store.
> 
> He rather sell a fish at cost (to make people happy) than making a profit! I can tell you those $12.50 angel is almost at cost (he's making like a few bucks) and that's goes for many fish in his store.


more questions... (btw Big Fishy, the ac70 if working flawlessly. Thanks)

the 2 long ventral fins are fraying a little, is that normal?
is the flow from a ac70 and an ac50 and a sponge filter overkill for 2 altums and 6 GBR? (the 2 species should be compatible right?)

I could move them to a 90 gallon, would that be better or is the 30 gallon sufficient.


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## acropora1981

I was in Dragon King a few days ago and they looked like they were doing ok. They have them with some (wild?) brown discus. They do look like true altums, but I seriously doubt that they are F1. There is a)no one who has bred altums and b)if they did breed altums, no one would be selling captive raised altums at such a large size, they would be snapped up at much smaller sizes, and we would have heard about it in magazines etc.


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## dl88dl

Here is a Ad from Dragon King with picture and they claim it is F1 Altums -

http://www.pricenetwork.ca/ddeal/Dr...um_Angel_F1_Tank_breed_and_raised-297599.html


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## vandiscus

*Altum?*

If it is, I can get supplies. They are pricy and are available at 5cm size. Thanks.


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