# Please help me solve my problem



## jimc2002 (Mar 13, 2010)

Hey everyone, 
I am having a problem with cloudy water and just wanted an opinion from someone more knoledgable than me on the topic.
I recently gave my fish away and cleaned out the sand in my tank so I could replace it with gravel. I emptied the tank (38gallon), scrubbed it down, and restarted. I used all my old rocks and ornaments that were in the tank prior.
I filled the tank 5 days ago and treated the water. The water has been very cloudy since the day after i set up the tank. I would have thought it would be gone after a day or two but that hasnt been the case.

Now my question is, do you guys think this is from not cleaning the gravel well enough? (i kind of half assed it). If so, do u think its necissary to take everything out and rewash the gravel or do u think I can fill and empty the tank twice or 3 times without taking everything out (i really like how i set everything up).

Or, can this actually be from bacteria from all the old lava rocks and ornaments i had in there? The lava rocks hold/soak up alot of water. They were still soaked from the old fish water.

I dont want to take everything out and have to clean out my gravel again because this would take forever and it may not even be the problem.

What do you guys think? What are your suggestions? Walk me through it

thanks


----------



## TJM (Dec 23, 2009)

Tank size? Brand of filter?


----------



## jimc2002 (Mar 13, 2010)

38gallon tank
topfin40 filter


----------



## jimc2002 (Mar 13, 2010)

here is some more info

tested water

ph read : 7.6

ammonia read : .0.25


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

If you can get an estabished sponge from a old filter and squeeze out the sponge in your 38gal and the water in that tank will turn very dark brown but in a hour or two the water in your tank will be crystal clear and your topfin40 filter will be seeded with all the good bacteria and your tank is ready for fish.


----------



## jimc2002 (Mar 13, 2010)

any other input from anyone else would be great


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

It's very simple all that's happened is when you cleaned everything, you killed and removed all your benefitial bacteria, so your tank is starting over. Hence cloudy water.

When you change substrate, there's no reason to kill anything. I switched from gravel to sand in about 10 minutes a couple of weeks ago. The nice thing about gravel is that you can just kind of 'beat it up' thoroughly in batches in a bucket, pour that water into your tank, and not really lose any bacteria. I also used a little seachem stability (bac supplement) to make sure my biofilter didn't miss a beat.

You're going to either have to cycle your tank again, but not with fish, as that is a bad idea, or, more easily, go to someone else with an aquarium get a bunch of used filter media and start with a couple of small fish.


----------



## ohmyfish (Feb 20, 2010)

Since you have no fish and the tank has been thoroughly cleaned, I would suggest that you take everything out for a good cleaning one more time. New substrate (ex. gravel, sand) needs to be washed thoroughly before it is placed in the tank. It is a very important task. Your cycle has probably been disturbed. Is the cleaned tank still using the same old filter media? If so, keep it (but if there was a disease in the tank, throw it away). Some people who clean their established tanks too much have reported cloudy water. This is because they've knocked the cycle off by removing too much of the good bacteria. This is what has likely happened.

Sand is likely NOT the cause. However, if you only had the sand for a short period (like a week or two), then sand could be the problem. But I doubt it.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

ohmyfish said:


> Since you have no fish and the tank has been thoroughly cleaned, I would suggest that you take everything out for a good cleaning one more time. New substrate (ex. gravel, sand) needs to be washed thoroughly before it is placed in the tank. It is a very important task. Your cycle has probably been disturbed. Is the cleaned tank still using the same old filter media? If so, keep it (but if there was a disease in the tank, throw it away). Some people who clean their established tanks too much have reported cloudy water. This is because they've knocked the cycle off by removing too much of the good bacteria. This is what has likely happened.
> 
> Sand is likely NOT the cause. However, if you only had the sand for a short period (like a week or two), then sand could be the problem. But I doubt it.


If its silica sand and you didnt rinse it thats your cloudiness for sure.


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> If its silica sand and you didnt rinse it thats your cloudiness for sure.


I think he said he replace the sand with gravel.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> I think he said he replace the sand with gravel.


 Need more coffee


----------



## jimc2002 (Mar 13, 2010)

thanks for all the replies guys

here is what i did

1.I took out about 99% of the water
2.Filled up the tank 60%
3.Emptied the tank
4.Filled it up 60% again
5.Emptied the tank again
6. Filled it up again
7. Put some chlorine remover in and a bit of artificial bacteria



I did all this without removing or moving any rocks.



The water looks cleaner already,

lets see how it looks tomorrow


----------



## TJM (Dec 23, 2009)

Yeah, if u added something like Cycle it'll cloud the water for a day or so.


----------



## jimc2002 (Mar 13, 2010)

so its about 20 hours after i did the heavy water change. The water looks much clearer. Its not crystal clear but I guess the only time it will be crystal clear is when my cycle is complete + I dont have any fish in there. But it is definately much better than before. I can now rest assure that if my tank clouds up again, its because of bacteria and not my half-ass cleaning of the gravel.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

You can get cycled media from me if you're in scarboro.

W


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

jimc2002 said:


> so its about 20 hours after i did the heavy water change. The water looks much clearer. Its not crystal clear but I guess the only time it will be crystal clear is when my cycle is complete + I dont have any fish in there. But it is definately much better than before. I can now rest assure that if my tank clouds up again, its because of bacteria and not my half-ass cleaning of the gravel.


Here is a link to the "seeding your new aquarium"

http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/startupcycle/f/seedtank.htm


----------



## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

or you can add a pinch of fish food into the tank and wait for it to break down. 
Seeding is a good way to do it, it's fast, but this method works just as well.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

BettaBeats said:


> or you can add a pinch of fish food into the tank and wait for it to break down.
> Seeding is a good way to do it, it's fast, but this method works just as well.


It doesnt work just as well. No where near.


----------



## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

always has for me. 
maybe it's beginner's luck. 

this way my tank's bio bacteria are what's going on in my tank. same food i feed my fish. bacteria likened to my water properties, etc.

People love to seed tanks. That's also how I've gotten snail infestations in the past when I seeded a neighbors filter into a new 20gal. 

ended up having to tear that tank apart.


----------



## freddymp (Jan 15, 2010)

Hi jimc2002,

My 20 gal planted pot (underwater, lilies, potted marginals, plus a few feeder goldfish and snails) started cloudy. I took a fresh, common household foam block, and wrapped that around an old Minijet 600 (a bit strong for the size...). The water clears up after a few hours. The foam block trapped lots of particulate matter (which I rinsed afterwards). The good bacteria from the soil on the pots also help seed the foam. So a combo of mechanical and biological filtration with plenty of water movement. Hope this helps.

Freddy


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

There's NO way you're going to get the correct bacterial bio-diversity for a fully stocked tank any other way than by copying the population from a fully-stocked tank. Dropping a pinch of fish food in will be better than just hoping bacteria magically land in your tank and survive on nothing, but it doesn't work very well for me, or for most people.

Get a sponge or cycled media from someone else who has a stable healthy tank. It's easy and it works. And if you get an "infestation" of free loach food, get yourself a lovely yoyo-loach. And enjoy it.

W


----------



## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

BettaBeats said:


> always has for me.
> maybe it's beginner's luck.
> 
> this way my tank's bio bacteria are what's going on in my tank. same food i feed my fish. bacteria likened to my water properties, etc.
> ...


Yeah, you have to watch out for that one. I have snail in all my tanks, I love the snails, they help me clean up the left over food so it doesn't break down and dump a load of amonia into the tank. That's why I don't give away my media over to some one else.
Um ... speaking of the pinch of food ... you are better off with dosing ammonia instead. Why wait for a day for the food to decompose to produce ammonia. That's one day wasted, also, you have to think 1 day in advance, because when it's time to stop producing ammonia, you won't have that option with the food that is still decomposing in your tank.
Between the food, ammonia dose and seeding from another tank. I think I would pick the seeding hands down.
Also, a pinch of substrate from an established tank isn't going to do much unless the other person is running an undergravel filter.
Think of it this way, if you have 100% of the good bacteria in your fish tank:
80% of them will live in your filter
18% of them will live in your gravels and tank walls and decoration wall.
2% will be free floating.

That's why if your filter stops running, you only have 1 to a max of 2 days before your tank crashes and your fish starts to die. So you know where the bacterias are and what is keeping your tank running.

Undergravel filters works differently, most of those bacteria will be in your gravels. A fist full of this stuff is almost as good as a seed from an established sponge.

The best method by far is to run 2 filter in an establish tank for 1 week. Then pick it up and hook it up to the new tank and presto! instant cycled tank. It's almost like making a %100 water change.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Yeah, you have to watch out for that one. I The best method by far is to run 2 filter in an establish tank for 1 week. Then pick it up and hook it up to the new tank and presto! instant cycled tank. It's almost like making a %100 water change.


I agree with you in running 2 filters also if you run a sump you can put in a bunch of different size Hyro and AC sponges in the sump. These method only work for people that already have an establish tank or tanks. Or get it from people on GTAA but you have to make sure that the sponge or media is in the water that the it was in and use it before 1 hour or run an air pump in the container while you are driving home with that sponge and that will last for a long time.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

A bacteria colony on sponge in a sealed bag with air can last 1-2 hours outside the tank, in just air, without any significant die-off of the colony. You want higher humidity around the sponge, than just in open air, thus the small amount of water in the bag, and the bag sealed. 

W


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> A bacteria colony on sponge in a sealed bag with air can last 1-2 hours outside the tank, in just air, without any significant die-off of the colony. You want higher humidity around the sponge, than just in open air, thus the small amount of water in the bag, and the bag sealed.
> 
> W


After 1 hour outside the tank a significant amount of the beneficial nitrifying bacteria will die off and the anaerobic bacteria will take over...do you want to take a chance and seed it with this sponge. But if you have a bucket of the tank water and the sponge in it with the air from an air pump then the beneficial nitrifying bacteria will survive until you get home to use it.
Nitrifying bacteria requires oxygen in the water to survive.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

If that's so then why do wet-dry filters work so well, and have so much aerobic bacteria on the wet surfaces that are exposed to environmental air? 
;-)

W


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> After 1 hour outside the tank a significant amount of the beneficial nitrifying bacteria will die off and the anaerobic bacteria will take over...do you want to take a chance and seed it with this sponge. But if you have a bucket of the tank water and the sponge in it with the air from an air pump then the beneficial nitrifying bacteria will survive until you get home to use it.
> Nitrifying bacteria requires oxygen in the water to survive.


It requires oxygen to survive. It doesn't need to be submerged. You can keep biofilter bacteria alive on a sponge in a bag with 30ml of water if its really well pressurized for several hours.


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> If that's so then why do wet-dry filters work so well, and have so much aerobic bacteria on the wet surfaces that are exposed to environmental air?
> ;-)
> 
> W


Only the part that touches by the water where the aerobic will grows. The water that run down will pickup oxygen from the air and aerobic bacteria will grow on those media. If you put this media in a bag and close the bag for over an hour the aerobic bacteria will use up all the oxygen in that bag and start to die off and convert to anaerobic bacteria. For the TT filter to work it must be at least 18" or more of media. I made a TT filter that is over 36" high using a 55 gal drum for my pond.


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> It requires oxygen to survive. It doesn't need to be submerged. You can keep biofilter bacteria alive on a sponge in a bag with 30ml of water if its really well pressurized for several hours.


Do you know how much aerobic bacteria is on that sponge? It will use up that oxygen in that bag and these good bacteria will die off and the anaerobic will take over. If aerobic bacteria can survive without water then it will make this hobby as easy as 1 2 3...LOL
BTW, where you not the one who saids bloat is not a disease...LOL


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

So the extent of our disagreement is that I said 1-2 hours, and you said "over one hour". Cool. I'm so glad we've got this all sorted then.

W


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> So the extent of our disagreement is that I said 1-2 hours, and you said "over one hour". Cool. I'm so glad we've got this all sorted then.
> 
> W


What I said is that you have to try and use that sponge before 1 hour. I think .5 hour or less is better.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

My anecdotal evidence (that I've actually tried this many times) suggests that it will take over 2 hours for any significant die-off to occur that will result in any ammonia at all, or any mini or full cycles occurring. Have you tried this? Did you get different results or is this theory?

W


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> My anecdotal evidence (that I've actually tried this many times) suggests that it will take over 2 hours for any significant die-off to occur that will result in any ammonia at all, or any mini or full cycles occurring. Have you tried this? Did you get different results or is this theory?
> 
> W


Let me ask you 1 question...how long after you seed the new tank did you put fish in with your method fully stocked with live stock?


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Fully stocked? Define fully stocked?

W


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Fully stocked? Define fully stocked?
> 
> W


I am sure everyone on GTAA has their own idea how much live stocks they can put in a given tank. For example...you just seeded a 75 gallon tank...how much live stock you had in mind to stock this tank and how long of a period will you take to put all this live stock in this 75 gal.?


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I would never attempt a 100% stocking change in a tank even when I had not moved the filter sponge from another tank.  It's just not smart. Because of the living things called Fish in there. I wouldn't even move the whole filter from one 75G to another 75G and then fully load that with fish. 

W


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> Let me ask you 1 question...how long after you seed the new tank did you put fish in with your method fully stocked with live stock?


Its common sense. If you add all the bacteria from a filter for a tank that had two large goldfish, you can support maybe one large goldfish in the new tank from the get go, given that you have not transfered the bacteria on the gravel etc.

As time goes by and the bacterial colony grows you go adding fish gradually.


----------



## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I would never attempt a 100% stocking change in a tank even when I had not moved the filter sponge from another tank.  It's just not smart. Because of the living things called Fish in there. I wouldn't even move the whole filter from one 75G to another 75G and then fully load that with fish.
> 
> W


You have not answer my question...so what is your method of stocking after the seeding since you have done it many times. 
But anyway, I was running 30 tanks but just cut back to 23 tanks. Had the first 5 tanks for a while before I move up to 30 tanks and the last 25 tanks I use the seeding method. Take for example a new 75gal tank filled with tap water and add Prime and setup a filter or 2 (depending on the size of the tank), heater set at 78F to 85F and add rocks or driftwoods, gravel crush corals etc..again this will depend on the species of fish. Run this system overnight and in about 24 hours I get my 2 AC500 sponges from my 2 mature AC500 filters and take it over to the new 75gal and squeeze these 2 sponges a few times until the new 75gal is almost black&#8230;very dark brown and in 1 to 2 hours the water in the 75gal is crystal clear and that filter or filters in the new 75gal are now seeded and don't forget the inside of the 75gal is also seeded like rocks and gravel etc(this one is for you AM). For smaller tanks 1 smaller sponge will do.These 2 sponges goes back into my old AC500s. I add 100% live stock at this time and will not feed them for 3 days and after that I feed lightly for the next week and I also do a 10% water change daily for the first week after that your weekly 20% to 30% WC. I have done this with most fishy without any problems except for Discus and fancy goldfish&#8230;these fishy I would introduce them to the new 75gal 2 or 3 of them at a time depending on their size and in 2 to 3 weeks 100% stocked. I have also use this method for family and friends with no fish lost&#8230;but for them I get them to stock 100% over a 3 weeks time period since they are new to the hobby&#8230;it seems like I have done this method over 100 times LOL but more like 50 to 60 times. Now, you see why I do not want any aerobic bacteria to die off. You do not need to move filters around when you can seed the new filter.
BTW, you can call it a theory or what ever you like but it works for me and my friends and no fishy lost too. This way you can enjoy watching your fish swim around rather then a empty tank and YES, I do not like to cycle with live fish&#8230;period

I love a good challenge...it's all good


----------

