# Pregnant Endler



## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

I have a very pregnant Endler and have been waiting all week for the new arrivals.

This morning when I checked on her, she looked more pale than normal and the black spots on either side of her anal fin are gone yet she'll still big and I haven't seen any fry in the tank.

She's active and eating. Any thoughts?

BTW, Endlers do not eat their fry despite what you may have read on the internet. This information from Doug White http://www.deltaguppies.com/.

Edit: The spots have darkened since turning on the light. She was living with two males which I've now removed (this morning) so she has the whole tank to herself. I'd love to move my other pregnant Endler in with her but I can't catch her in the 90g, and don't want to stress her out.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

i cant recall how long it usually takes for them to drop. The limia livebarers took forever! ... Hopefully she will for you soon.

I never usually have problems with fry being eaten... But i have a bit of live plants in there too.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

That's a yes and no answer. They usually don't eat their own fry. That would defeat their purpose of living. But they will not hesitate to eat another endler's fry.

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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Ah yes, you have a point there. Eat the competition!


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

I've seen mine eat their own without hesitation unfortunately.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Katalyst, Did you get yours from Doug too? I think I read a post from you, on another forum, discussing Delta Guppies. 

Doug has his Endlers all together in one tank, males, female and babies with a big clump of java moss. Did you have some cover for yours? I now have just my female alone in a 5.5g tank by herself, with a big chunk of java moss and floating plants. I will be heart broken if she eats her babies!

Doug also told me about selectively breeding guppies who didn't eat their young.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Still no fry... still a restless mom up and down the glass... The boys are busy chasing my other (pregnant) female in the big tank, they're so tiny, smaller than any tetra! BTW, they're predominantly orange, black with a bit of turquoise near the tail.









Sorry, I just don't have the equipment to take good photos of these great nano fish! You can see the difference in size by the pregnant female in the background.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Endler Photos*

Was able to get a couple more photos;

1) Pregnant female in 5.5g tank awaiting birth.









2) Males chasing pregnant female in 90g.


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## PPulcher (Nov 17, 2006)

Endler's are hard to get pics of. Good work!

I've been keeping them for a number of years, but I've never acutally seen them drop fry. I'll turn on the tank lights and find a whole bunch of them, but the acutally birth is something I haven't witnessed.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

What kind of Endlers do you have? I have a Japanese strain which have a black line running along their side. http://deltaguppies.com/20.htm (I did not take this photo)

Do you keep them in a planted tank?


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## PPulcher (Nov 17, 2006)

Mine are a wild type that I can trace back to one of Armando Pou's collection, but they are many, many many generations removed from the wild.

I have them in a 10 gallon tank choked with najas and some anubias. The photo is a little blurry, but they are in the top tank shown here:


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Great tank for little 'uns to hide!

Have you seen this Endler's website? Can you find a pic of your on it?


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## PPulcher (Nov 17, 2006)

There is a fair amount of variability. The photo at the bottom right of http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/endlerslivebearer/page2.htm looks like them most. Some have that black banding on the belly, others don't.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Tabatha said:


> Hi Katalyst, Did you get yours from Doug too? I think I read a post from you, on another forum, discussing Delta Guppies.
> 
> Doug has his Endlers all together in one tank, males, female and babies with a big clump of java moss. Did you have some cover for yours? I now have just my female alone in a 5.5g tank by herself, with a big chunk of java moss and floating plants. I will be heart broken if she eats her babies!
> 
> Doug also told me about selectively breeding guppies who didn't eat their young.


Yep I have lots of cover, some of mine were from a trade, some are from Doug and some are from Adrian HD who collects them from Armando Pou. It gets confusing but I keep them in seperate tanks.


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## kris (Dec 24, 2007)

*endlers...*

does anyone have endlers from adrian hernandez ? wish to buy ...he is in either usa or mexico i have his web site and i hope i wont get in trouble for this ( I got suspended once allready). For information only : ...***SwampRiverAquatics.com Not my site , i dont get paid..BEST i have seen...setting up 55 gal endlers only...


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Does he cross guppies with his Endler's? (Exotic Hybrid Endlers)?


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## kris (Dec 24, 2007)

*endlers*

is it true what i have read ) endlers only live for a year or so?


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

kris said:


> does anyone have endlers from adrian hernandez ? wish to buy ...he is in either usa or mexico i have his web site and i hope i wont get in trouble for this ( I got suspended once allready). For information only : ...***SwampRiverAquatics.com Not my site , i dont get paid..BEST i have seen...setting up 55 gal endlers only...


Yep I actually posted in the thread right above yours that there's where some of mine are from. Adrian is in Miami Florida.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

This weekend I purchased 3 Pygmy corys for the 5.5g nursery clean-up crew and 3 Panda corys for my 8g at work. Currently they're all in the nursery with my very pregnant Endler, all is very serene and peaceful. Yesterday I did a 50% water change and a few hours later, spotted this:













​
Could they be Cory eggs or are they snail eggs? I haven't seen very many snails in the tank, maybe 1 or 2 tiny ones, and I just swapped out the substrate on Friday (since I'm not growing plants in the tank).

I have a big chunk of java moss for the pending fry to hide in and floating watersprite.

If they are snail eggs, I'd like to remove them immediately however, if they're cory eggs, I'd love for them to hatch! I don't think they're cory eggs however, because they seem to be too young but of course I don't know for sure.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*The Nursery (photo)*

It's not beautiful by any stretch of the imagination but I think it'll do the job.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

kris said:


> is it true what i have read ) endlers only live for a year or so?


More than 1 year, but less than 3 years. I really haven't timed my endler's longetivity. But I just can't recally having any endlers live for more than 3 years though. The reason I know this is because I used to have a tank of endlers and my Altum angles eat all the males. I tried to catch the females, but can't do that as it was a very tall tank and they move too fast. Anyway, I still have a few in this tank and it's a little more than a year. But I can see that the females are getting old and one by one they slowly die of old age.

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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

I just bought a red net, the text on the packaging suggests that fish can't see the colour red. I have a female Endler in my 90 gallon tank which I haven't been able to catch -- she's pregnant and I don't want to stress her out.

Can anyone confirm/deny the red theory? I haven't tried it yet but will share my results when I do.

Zebra - do all your females look the same? I have two and they're very similar, the only way I can tell them apart is by size.



Zebrapl3co said:


> <snip> I tried to catch the females, but can't do that as it was a very tall tank and they move too fast. Anyway, I still have a few in this tank and it's a little more than a year. But I can see that the females are getting old and one by one they slowly die of old age.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

For the stores that I have chatted with about that net say it is just a gimmick... and they have noticed no differentce catching fish.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

It's a good think I only paid $3.00 for it! However, I will give it a try and let you know first hand, if I believe the hype 



KnaveTO said:


> For the stores that I have chatted with about that net say it is just a gimmick... and they have noticed no differentce catching fish.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Caught 2nd Endler!*

_"Great Success!"_

No, my virgin hasn't had her fry yet but I did manage to net the _experienced_ female Endler out of the 90g tank with the "_*infrared*_" net!

I do believe she saw the net -- perhaps the black outline? Whatever, I managed to get her into the nursery, finally!

Virgin is as big as the proverbial house, her tummy starts just after her eye line but her gravid spots aren't as large or dark as they were last week!?! We're now joking that she's just big boned (like me)!

I have 2 more females on the way to entertain the males (horny buggers!) I'm not sure if they'll be virgins or not but it might be a good idea for the young _randy_ males?

If anyone has any insight, please share!
​


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Most females look the same. I do have 1 or 2 out of 100 or more that display hints of colour on their fin.
Ummm ... note that I said females "usually" don't eat their own fry, but there is no guarentee that they won't. It might be wise to use a fry separator; that V thing that comes with the breeding catch container.

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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

I asked Doug about the breeding box, he said not to use it b/c it would stress her out. I do have *A LOT* of Java moss in the tank with her.

Do you know what might be going on with her gravid spot becoming smaller and paler?



Zebrapl3co said:


> <snip>
> Ummm ... note that I said females "usually" don't eat their own fry, but there is no guarentee that they won't. It might be wise to use a fry separator; that V thing that comes with the breeding catch container.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I think that is a sign that she already laid some of the wigglers. Look at the water line at the top of your tank. Some of the fry may be hidding there. Also, the java moss would protect the fry as well. They are pretty small. If you left the mother in the hatchery ... I hope you feed her well.
You must be pretty exited. Is this your first spawn? err your fish's first spawn is what I mean.

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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

I keep checking the watersprite and Java moss but haven't seen any little eyes yet. I'll have to spend some time looking!

I'm feeding her Delta Guppies' Growth Mix from Doug as well as a combination of blood worms, brine shrimp and mysis.

Yes, I am VERY excited!!! It is my first spawn but I can't take credit, she was hit before I got her.



Zebrapl3co said:


> I think that is a sign that she already laid some of the wigglers. Look at the water line at the top of your tank. Some of the fry may be hidding there. Also, the java moss would protect the fry as well. They are pretty small. If you left the mother in the hatchery ... I hope you feed her well.
> You must be pretty exited. Is this your first spawn? err your fish's first spawn is what I mean.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Have a Cigar!*

*We Have Fry... in the 90g Osaka!?!*​
I have a female Endler in the big tank, she's pregnant but I didn't think she was THAT pregnant!!! They are soooo cute, 2 little fry swimming near to top of the tank, no one is bothering with them at all -- mind you the tank is mainly tetra, 2 male Endlers & 1 big female Endler.

I think I might move the other female to the big tank, it seems to work!

BTW Brian, you might want to recheck the watersprite I gave you this afternoon, there may be some babies in there!
---------------------------------

Correction: I've now counted 5 fry all hanging out around the watersprite. Mom is active and still has very dark gravid spots albeit somewhat thinner! The males are all over her, showing off (so cute).

BTW, Big Al's Scarb. had a whole tank of male Endlers of all colours but how pure, I really couldn't say. There may have been some part guppies in there, which were larger...


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Interesting Observation...*

I've moved the younger, more pregnant girl into the 90g Osaka with all the other Endlers. The "older" girl, who has just given birth, has welcomed the younger virgin with open arms! The boys are still courting the older girl but leaving the younger girl alone. The younger girl is so much more "round" and slower than the older girl ever was!

Last weekend I introduced the older girl into the smaller tank and she chased and picked on the younger girl.

Very interesting!


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Endler Baby Photo*

Here's a photo, which will give you an idea of how small these precious babies are (I know that back of the tank looks nasty but it's hard to clean on the other side of the glass!). Man, they are FAST!


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Heh, congratulation.  
If there are 5 in the top, there will probably be at least 5+ on the bottom of the tank. Make sure you have lot's to hiding places for them. Otherwise, they will be fish food. It might take a while, but eventualy, the population will exblow in that 90G tank.
And speaking of tank. I just happened to come accros an Osaka tank at PJ's in Scarborough Town centre. I have to say that it's much nicer in real live than the picture. One thing that puzzle me though. Does it come with the Hagen light as well? The one I saw at STC doesn't look like it have enought wattage for a planted tank in my opinion.

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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

The little buggers showed up the night of the monster snow storm this week (Wednesday). There are tons of hiding places for the fry, I have driftwood and Java moss as well as other plants, not to mention the floating watersprite.

The tank comes with the cabinet, light and Life-Glo & Power-Glo T5HO Bulbs. If this is not enough light for a planted tank, what would you recommend?


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

its two t5 HO as tabatha mentioned.. I have those lights over my tank as well and the plants just go nuts. lol

I love that tank.. we have a set up one at Pj's pickering if you ever want to visit.

tabatha! Congrats on the fry!


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks Ciddian! One more popped up out of nowhere today so we now have 6 fry.

With regards to the Osaka, you also have mini Osakas which are really cute too, with the same cabinet.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks for the info Cid.
I don't have any experience with the Hagen lights (T5HO). That's why I am wondering if they where effective or not. It's hard to believe two little T5 tub can offer that much light. I wonder how well do they compare to the PC lights.

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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

i am not 100% sure myself ...i am old school so i usually just went by wattage.. but these lights are different from what i understand?.. not exactly sure.. 

I was wary of them when they first came out because they are a lot more affordable.. the tank i threw them on just exploded with growth..


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Add two more to the mix.*

We went to Doug's yesterday and purchased two more female Endlers, one of which is a hybrid w/ a female green guppy. Both the new girls are huge, one is darker than the other, almost a charcoal gray. The two original females are much smaller and lighter in colour, I like to call them _blonds_. One of the fry is much darker than the others, it'll be really interesting to see how these little fellas develop and what colours we get from the hybrid.

EDIT: Friday we counted 6 fry, Saturday it appeared we were down to 4. Saturday was our day to clean the filters, we save the used water for the plants. Today I decided to put the 4 wee ones into a hatchery, I wanted to at least see some mature and not just disappear. The bucket of used water was sitting by the back door, I peeked in and there was a single fry swimming around, it got sucked up into the filter! Needless to say I grabbed the net, scooped him up and put him with his siblings.

Ciddian, I noticed this happened to you too in your planted tank post!

While we were there, I also picked up my trio of Albino Blue Topaz guppies, they are *stunning*; 1 gold female, 1 silver female and 1 gold male. Apparently the silvers keep the topaz blue colour but the offspring tend to be smaller which is why you want to breed with a gold male, the gold bodied tend to be larger and more robust than the silver. I can't wait to have babies from this trio!!! Good thing I've got a sponge filter in that tank!

Lastly, we got 3 more longfinned albino bristle nose Plecos, 1 more for the 90g and 2 for the 20g. I love these guys, they're so pretty.

Doug also demonstrated how to hatch our own brine shrimp and gave us a small vial of eggs, we'll be setting that up this afternoon. He is such an amazing teacher and knowledge base!


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

I was able to get a shot of all the kids in shot, just luck!









And here's my "big boned" girl who still hasn't appeared to have given birth, I've been waiting and watching for 3 weeks now! She looks like she's going to split in 1/2!


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Happy Birthday*

Four more fry were born today and I don't think we're finished yet tonight, the other 5 are twice their size already and exploring the val.

Does anyone know when Endlers start to colour up?


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*We Witnessed the Birth!*

After we got home from work yesterday, we noticed little googly eyes with a tails swimming around the back of the tank, BABIES! And she wasn't finished!


She would swim to the corner of the tank where our in-tank filter is, sit on top and work it out. The male certainly didn't help her, he couldn't wait for her to finish and kept biting her bum.  The juveniles were hanging about too.

We watched the birth of 11 fry, one egg, which she quickly ate and 2 more appeared this morning.

We have one other girl which is hugely pregnant and will probably drop this week too. 

BTW, I believe the mom is a green guppy hybrid as she's much larger than the Endler female we have. (All are from Doug.)


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## kris (Dec 24, 2007)

*Endlers*

id love to see the pics of mom and dad (endlers) and are those hybrids? or pure endlers?


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Kris,

I have both pure strain Endlers AND hybrids from Doug White at Delta Guppies. Keep in mind that female Endler's, like guppies, can carry sperm for 3 - 4 drops and my female was pregnant when I bought her. We'll have to wait for the fry to color-up before we know for sure.

Here's a picture of the female of my older fry and male:









And this is one of Doug's photos (hope he doesn't mind me using it):









Will post pictures when the fry mature 

Cheers,

Tabatha

p.s., We will be looking for homes for these guys in the near future, pick-up or meet only, no shipping as I'm not experienced.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Woah, hybrids!?
Hmm, I think you should read a bit about endler/guppy hybrids. It's not some thing that the general hobiest population encourage.
You must be very careful when you distribute them and make sure the other party fully knows that you carry hybrids. Even if it looks like it's a pure endlers, you'll have to go under the assumption that all the fish in your tank are hybrids and must let the other party know.
I keep pure endlers strain, and the only way I can keep it pure is to give up all the guppies I've got. I've had to destroy an entire tank of endlers once because I've purchase a batch of endlers (that was said to be wild from a certain BA store), but turns out that they where looking more and more like a guppy/endler cross.

I don't know what to say. Dough should have know better than to pass a hybrids around. And if even if he did, he should have been very up front and warn you about it ...
Are you sure it was a hybrid? It's very unlike of Dough to do that.

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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Yes, I know about the guppy / Endler's cross no-no. 

The reason why it was done was for hybrid vigor (very common in the cat fancy with many breeds, not so in the dog world but they really should consider it with all the health issues!).

*I* personally don't mind the crosses, I find them interesting but I completely understand wanting to keep them pure. The males are a great size for nano tanks!

I will definitely inform potential owners of the guppy factor.

Thanks,

Tabatha


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Anthony, does this make me an outcast in the Endler community?


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

no... it doesnt. 

I have endlers and guppies together.. but i would never sell them as the pure strain...

I have purchased Hybrids from Doug and he informed me.. I was looking for hybrids because i wanted to keep the 1 tank.

i'll be in the market for your fry when the time comes tabatha  I personally enjoy the hybrids but you can enjoy them and be respsocible for them too.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Thank you for your kind words Ciddian, you are so kind hearted. I want to be just like you when I grow up!  

I do understand the need for pure strain Endlers but personally, I love variety and surprise. I also love genetics, I used to breed Devon Rex cats -- cats can and do breed with different males and can have technicolor litters.

If you have both Enders and guppies, I'm sure you'll have your hands full with fry too! Perhaps we can trade -- what colour are your guppies?

Cheers and thanks again,

Tabatha


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I have Kats strain.. I cant remember who she got them from. I used to have an adorable lyire tail from doug but he got stuck between a fry net and the side of the tank.

Mine looks very much like yours... i think.. what do you think?










Oohh they are different... LoL

Ohh and i love rexes!


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

The top photo looks like my male, the bottom however, doesn't.

Devons are amazing cats, very affectionate, wonderful personality and a soft voice.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Male Endler*

Here's our male Endler.








The fry are already the same size!


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

*Population Control*

Well, I don't have to worry about a population explosion of Endlers. 

As I was watching the activity, I noticed on fry go zooming across the tank on a wave to be picked on and eaten by a Harlequin Rasbora. I then saw another fry snatched up by a Cardinal Tetra.

I was really shocked and disheartened by this.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

yes i read that yesterday regarding those ram fry! I didnt even put two and two together Tabatha.. D:

I am sorry


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

The reason why I'm so bummed about it was because I was hoping to breed my Albino Blue Topaz Guppies in that tank. Now I'll have to leave them in the 5.5g which we really wanted to use as a Q tank. I'd put them in the new 50g but I want to put rams in there in which case no fry would survive. I'll have to figure something out b/c TDF doesn't want 4 tanks in the house. I might have to swap something out in my 8g office tank which is currently holding 3 fancy BA guppies.

Also, I don't want to leave my ABT at work because I don't want to leave them here over weekends and the fry will get sucking in by the filter.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Sooo, as you might have all guessed, I'm giving away/trading all our livebearers.

Pablo has lured me over to the Cichlid side, specifically South American. 

We've added German Blue Rams to the Osaka and have separated the male Endler/guppies from the females and have put the females up for adoption.


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