# Hamilton Water



## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

Good old Hamilton water.
Due to my ignorance and assumptions Hamilton water was the direct death of 6 CRS, 3 cardinal tetras, and one BEAUTIFUL golden panda lyretail molly (which I've yet to find an adequate replacement, grrr).

Some ammonia spikes caused me to water change, which caused greater symptoms in fish and death! (I always wondered why previous weekly water changes of 10% made the fish seem LESS active and happy)

Only then did I think to test the water to find out my tap water in Ancaster blows a 0.5 ppm on the ammonia test, plus chloramines (unless chloramines register on the drip test as ammonia).

SO. All that to ask the question:
How do I do water changes now knowing the tap water is worse. My system isn't fully stable yet as I add a fish every week and I'd rather not be adding any more ammonia than necessary, even with PRIME on hand.

What do you guys do for weekly WC with bad water?

NOTE: I have reverse osmosis for drinking water but don't want to loose minerals by simply adding that to a planted tank, I only use RO for top ups.

PROBLEM: I'm as cheap as a dutchman with only half a dollar so not going to be throwing TOO much money at the situation.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

Get a plastic barrel or garbage can. Fill it with water and run a filter of activated carbon on it. You can use a box filter but I use a canister. I use this for sensitive fish or fry.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Just to clarify, are you saying to use a barrel to store water for wc and have a cycled filter for the barrel and use carbon?

Sounds like a good plan to me. 

Last summer I was trying to find a barrel myself for putting some goldfish outside as I've heard it helps reduce mosquitos as they lay eggs in the barrel and the fish eat them and reduce the mosquito population.

Any tips on finding a food safe barrel cheap?


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

Thats what I find that circulating thw water though carbon removes most of the impurities that harm fish.

Most large cities have one or more barrel recyclers. A Goggle search should find them. Fruit and juice in concentrates as well as food grade chemicals are imported in barrels from around the world. Try this link.

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/f-plastic-barrels-Classifieds-W0QQKeywordZplasticQ20barrels


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> Just to clarify, are you saying to use a barrel to store water for wc and have a cycled filter for the barrel and use carbon?
> 
> Sounds like a good plan to me.
> 
> ...


I do the opposite, haha. I *wince* keep my goldfish in a plastic garbage can INSIDE in the basement over the winter, but in the summer they love it out in the pond (approx 8' x 4' square surface area) because of all the mosquitos.

You're absolutely right, they gorge themselves on the larvae, and we have no mosquitos to speak of, despite numerous pine/cedars on our property!
I never feed my goldfish from spring to winter until I bring them inside and they are huge from all the stuff they find to eat in the great outdoors.

I didn't know you needed to find a "food safe" version. For goldfish any leaf or garbage can will do fine as long as its rinsed, will it not?


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

not if the plastic leaches toxins into the water. All depends on your container, if you buy a food safe barrel, you know you are safe, if you use a random container, its a gamble.


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

Well, I'm pretty sure water changes are going to keep up with any leeching of toxins anyways. 
That plastic is pretty much the same stuff we use to microwave yesterday's dinner...I'm sure we'll see the effects before our fish will, haha.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

I know this might not be what your looking for and it can be a pain once its in your tank, but I use duckweed on all my tanks (shrimps and Killifish) and I live in Burlington. I don't have any ammonia spikes at all in my tanks.

I also use Kordon products for water conditioning and add it to every top up..I don't change out my water only do top ups and fish are all healthy

Duckweed is known to remove ammonia/nitrites etc.


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

That's a great idea, I also have duckweed in my tank to help out, but the HOB filter keeps the surface water moving pretty fast and so the dw never really got established (oddly enough since that stuff should grow like a weed).
Good to know that it helps though!

I only use Prime now (for tap water) but I doubt I'll need that to condition R/O water. I just add prime right to the tank if my fish are flashing (usually a day or two after adding new fish).


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## mousey (Mar 28, 2011)

so how does Prime help with flashing???
I use Prime all the time in all my tanks and have never had it help with flashing.
I am very curious about that.

Also I am wondering about the hamilton water problem you are having. I have the same thing with Newmarket water-- the ammonia is usually 0.5 out of the tap. It is still a lower level than you have in the tanks when cycling and I have found that once the cycle is established _enough_, the bacteria take care of the 0.5 within 24 hours.using Stability can move the cycle along faster or help decrease ammonia levels in each water change.

Currently we have free chlorine in our water supply as the town is purging the pipe system of some coliforms they found growing in the system. The chlorine( bleach) smell is so strong in the mornings it makes me gag. I have been double dosing the amount of Prime I use with water changes. You have to watch as Prime tends to deplete 02 from the water if used in large quantities.

Chloramine has a very strong bond that the Prime breaks into chlorine and ammonia. The tests are quite accurate in picking up the ammonia IMO as I have fooled with them many times.
The only time I have had trouble with fish dying after water changes is when other people have too. When you meet a whack of people buying new fish and all saying that the fish died after water change you can assume that if you followed the correct procedure that there is something screwy with the water supply. Reading the water reports can be an eye opener even though they are a year out of date. Every time the chlorine and ammonia injector misfires something bad happens in the tank. It is for this reason that I double dose my Prime.

Hope this helps!


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Chloramine will test positive on an ammonia test. The only true ammonia test to test for true ammonia vs locked ammonia is the Seachem Ammonia test. I live in Hamilton and just did a test and it shows there is 0ppm free ammonia (toxic type) and a few ppm total ammonia (bound to chlorine in the form of chloramine, and not harmful).


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

getochkn said:


> Chloramine will test positive on an ammonia test. The only true ammonia test to test for true ammonia vs locked ammonia is the Seachem Ammonia test. I live in Hamilton and just did a test and it shows there is 0ppm free ammonia (toxic type) and a few ppm total ammonia (bound to chlorine in the form of chloramine, and not harmful).


I'm pretty sure that chloramine is harmful to fish (except maybe goldfish). In any event using water conditioners separates the chloramine into chlorine and ammonia does it not?
Can I get a confirmation on the toxicity of chloramine? I was told by several sources that it's no good for bacteria or fish (which is why it's added to drinking water to sterilize it).


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

mousey said:


> so how does Prime help with flashing???
> I use Prime all the time in all my tanks and have never had it help with flashing.
> I am very curious about that.


As per the customer support at the PRIME manufacturers, Prime not only breaks chloramine into ammonia and chlorine, but then bonds to the ammonia to make it inert (maybe adding a Hydrogen or something? I don't remember their explanation). This bond only lasts 24-48hrs before the ammonia reverts back (time is probably dependant on pH of water), ideally giving your bacteria time to consume it in its inert form.

PRIME helps deal with my flashing only because my fish are only flashing in response to ammonia irritation. If fish are flashing in response to parasite or other bad qualities in water, prime may help a bit by thickening slime coat, but not likely very much.

I've seen noticeable different before and after PRIME use in my tank; ergo, flashing is due to ammonia levels.

I never measured how long it took ammonia in tap water to be consumed in tank, but at this stage I'm still adding one new fish every week so any added ammonia is an unneeded stress in my opinion. I'll wait to do any water changes until tank is full.

Then I won't worry anyway because my WC are only 2 gallons at a time in a 33 gallon tank.


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

mousey said:


> The only time I have had trouble with fish dying after water changes is when other people have too. When you meet a whack of people buying new fish and all saying that the fish died after water change you can assume that if you followed the correct procedure that there is something screwy with the water supply. Reading the water reports can be an eye opener even though they are a year out of date. Every time the chlorine and ammonia injector misfires something bad happens in the tank. It is for this reason that I double dose my Prime.


Precisely the reason I do as few WCs as possible. I'd never want to trust the life of my tank to municipal employees only concerned with over-sterilizing water.


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## mousey (Mar 28, 2011)

chloramine will kill your fish too- toxic


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

That's always been my understanding too.. that chloramines are also toxic to fish. They also last longer in the water system than chlorine does, which is one reason they are used in water treatment. 

Chlorine is very volatile and thus gasses off quite quickly, though not as fast as the water treatment folks claim it does. If it did, I would not be smelling it every time I run the tap ! 

But the chloramines last much longer, thus making them more efficient for the purpose of municipal water treatment, but not so good for aquarium fish. Hence the use of water conditioners that detoxify both of these chemicals. They both kill bacteria, so I have to assume they can't be good for the filter colonies of bacteria we rely on either.

I did read somewhere that even chloramines will gas off eventually, but that it takes a minimum of one week, in a container with a large surface area, such as a bucket or tub. Using a bottle with a narrow opening doesn't work so well for aging water to get rid of these chemicals. So at least according to the article I read, I guess you could skip using water conditioner, but that would be assuming you had space and were willing to age your water for a couple of weeks before using it. I'd be leary of using it any sooner, if I were relying on gassing off to clear the water.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

When chlorine is mixed with ammonia it stops the chlorine from disapating. It is then called chloramine. You the then need a chloramine remover that separates them and allows them to go of into the air. However the chlorine residue is still not healthy for fish plants or people.


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

How does ammonia evaporate? I was under the impression it was not a gas at room temperature....



Bwhiskered said:


> When chlorine is mixed with ammonia it stops the chlorine from disapating. It is then called chloramine. You the then need a chloramine remover that separates them and allows them to go of into the air. However the chlorine residue is still not healthy for fish plants or people.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

I may be wrong but even if it does not leave the water products like Prime at least will detoxify it


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Chlorine gasses off the way it does because it's very volatile, and I have to say, I am so NOT a chemist. As I understand it, because chlorine is unstable, it gives up a molecule to air easily, which breaks the chlorine bond, so it's not chlorine any more.

But I truly don't know if chloramines are also volatile, though I'd like to think that they are, because if they are not, then they never leave the water and I'm drinking them.. and they are a combination of chlorine and ammonia, not pure ammonia.

I know they last longer than chlorine does in water, which is one reason why they are used for water treatment. I did read an article that suggested that chloramines would also gas off into air from water, if the water was exposed to air for a long enough period of time. 

But since I am not a chemist I don't know if this is true. In any case, I doubt many people have time or the space to leave any great quantity of water out in buckets for weeks at a time, in hopes they would not have to use any dechlorinating products like Prime. 

Prime, initially, looks expensive to buy, but it's cheaper to use because so little is needed, and it sure speeds things up on WC day.


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## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

Bwhiskered said:


> I may be wrong but even if it does not leave the water products like Prime at least will detoxify it


I'm pretty sure Ammonia doesn't evaporate. 
What I DO know is that Prime is a two step solution: 1) it breaks chloramine into chlorine and ammonia 2) it bonds to chlorine to make it inert and it bonds to ammonia making it inert (2 different bonding agents used). Presumably by adding hydrogen ions (for ammonia)? The ammonia bonded only remains inert for 24 -48 hours. So prime basically ties up ammonia/chloramine to give your beneficial bacteria time to eat it up. That's why you may have to dose every day or two with prime if you're trying to cycle your tank improperly.
It seems like the higher the pH the longer the prime works (seeing as the higher the pH the more free floating hydrogens in the water naturally)

I'm fuzzy on what prime does with the chlorine, if it binds it to make it permanently inert but still in the water, or if it assists in evaporation after making it inert.

Either way I've talked to people who use WAY too much prime, as a cure all and haven't experienced bad side effects so, seems much safer than the alternative- no conditioner.


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## mousey (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't think that ammonia evaporates from what I read but it is used up by the biological filter. Chlorine does evaporate as it changes to gas.
What is kind of scary is that we drink water that has been treated by these chemicals because to do other wise, we would likely die from bad bacteria in the water such as cholera etc. Having said that , though, the naturopathic community recommends that we only drink filtered water because our treated water in all likelihood kills the bacteria we have in our bowels that is needed to digest our food properly.
possibly a cause of why so many people are developing allergies and being poorly nourished -( apart from eating junk food)


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