# Sticky  Crystal Red Shrimp 101



## CrystalMethShrimp

Chapter 1: The Basics

I've recently noticed a lot of new members on gta showing an interest in keeping shrimps. So I thought I would post a continuous journal/blog on keeping and breeding crs (crystal red shrimp) and contribute anything new I learn. This hobby/ obsession will easily take up your mental time as it is very addictive and rewarding, which any shrimp breeders can attest to.

This information is based entirely on other breeders posts and my own experience with trail and error. There are many "bible laws" to crs keeping which I will go over and many debatable gray areas which I will try my best to avoid. I will however state the following with emphasis:

Do Not Ignore the Guidelines.
At the beginning of any new hobby we tend to take short cuts and make excuses with the rules. They are put in place because the experienced hobbyist at one time or another deviated from the laws themselves which had consequences which resulted in death of many shrimps. Now these rules are in place to prevent new hobbyists from such errors.

Let me start off by encouraging those currently keeping cherries to take the next step in this hobby and trying keeping slightly more sensitive shrimps such as CRS.
These shrimps paved the way for shrimp keeping and are famous world wide. They're price ranges anywhere from $5-$3000 USD each shrimp, and with a mother that can produce 20-50 offsprings in her lifetime (1-1.5 years), most breeders are more then willing to make the investment, but we'll come to that later on.










First let's take a look at what steps a typical person with a fish and/or cherries tank can take to equip their tank suitable for breeding CRS. We can do this by taking a closer look at the differences between the 2 tanks.

My friend Elva has a 10 gal with guppies and Cherries.
Her water is tap water with a ph of 7.6, temperature of 26 degrees due to her heater and her no3 is well over 20 ppm.










Let's take a moment to look at the Laws of keeping CRS.

1)Do not keep with fish. 
If your interested in breeding crs, never keep them with fish, there are some crs friendly fish many debate over the forums but the fact of the matter is, no one is 100% sure these fish won't eat crs babies even if by accident and they pollute your water with excess NO3 which crs are sensitive to. Go buy a cheap used 10 gal off of craigslist or kijiji.
2)Use R/O water if you can. I go to walmart, pick up a 18.9 water cooler jug then refill in the store's culligan self help machine. For under 4 dollar I have enough RO water to last a month. However if you don't have a car or wall mart near you, use a brita water filter.
3)Keep water changes small, 15-20% every week.










4) You need shrimp soil to bring the ph around 6.6 ideally. Many have them breeding in tap water at 7.6 ph. To me that is like taking a person from sea level then forcing them to live near the base of Mt. Kilimanjaor. They will eventually adapt to the thin air but it isn't healthy for their body and will probably reduce their life expectancy. A bag of ada or netlea is only $40 and will last you a long time especially in a small tank.










5) Cover the inlet with a sponge or the babies will get sucked in and chopped up. They also have special sponge filters with large surface areas for bacteria to accumulate which babies love to feed on. In fact I've read many breeders had an increase in baby survival when switched to this sponge (photo below)










6) Don't over feed your shrimps. For 58 crs I will feed a piece of boiled organic spinach the side of my thumb nail every 2 days. Only what they can finish in under 2 hours.
7) Bacteria, bacteria, bacteria, the filter should consist of 1/3 sponge and 2/3 of bio media for bacteria to grow. Carbon is not necessary and most breeders don't even use this.
8) +10 gal, the bigger the better because it will give you a more stable water parameter.
9) Ideally you want the temp to be between 22-24 degrees. 
10) CRS love aged water never expose them to any chemicals including chlorine, chloromine, copper, bleach! And here's the common sense part, never put your hand/forarm in the water is it's dirty or have just been exposed to a chemical such as dish detergent/body cream/hair product. Go to your local walmart and buy a cake of organic natural soap($3). Wash your hands with it before putting them in your tank, This stuff is amazing made with enzymes and completely natural os it breaks down easily.

Some of these points may be debatable but I can assure you that if you stick by them you'll a healthy booming population with minimal casualties.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Now let's go back to my friend elva,
Her tank as you remembered was 7.6 ph from the tap water and temp of 26 from the heater, the NO3 was well over 20ppm from all the fish.

We start by giving away the fish/cherries (cherries outbreed crs and will be a heavy strain on the crs's food supply) or buy a cheap used tank off craiglist.
-Next we remove all plants and decor and replace the substrate with ada or netlea shrimp soil ($40)to bring down the ph. Try to do this with the existing tank water and mulm to speed up cycling. An inch of soil to cover the bottom flat is sufficient.










-do an 80% water change with R/O water ($4)
- replace filter intake with double sponge filter ($10) or simply cover the intake with sponge
-remove carbon from filter and fill the cavity with as much bio pellets as possible.
-cycle until tank NO3 is less or equal to 5ppm. You can remove No3 most efficiently with rooted plants/moss and more water changes.
-remove heater to maintain 22 degrees
-buy 10 A grade crs from local breeders or stores like menagerie and Franks










-fill a bucket with shrimp and the water in the bag they came with beside/below your tank.
-place one end of a thin tube inside the tank and tie a loose knot at the opposite end of the tube. Suck on the end with the knot until water flows and place in bucket (siphon). Now tighten or loosen the knot to adjust the flow of water to a slow drip for 2 hours.










-net crs into tank and your set and viola!! You have a crs breeding tank!!










Maintenance :
5%tap+15% R/O water changes every week.
Feed organic boiled spinach every other day
Indian almond leaves which you can pick up from Menagerie ($5-$10) put in closed tupperwear with tank water and place outside in direct sunlight for a week. Feed 1 leaf per week.










There maybe method others can debate but if you follow these rules and a little common sense you have a thriving population in no time. 10 mature crs can grow to 50 crs in less then 6 months under these ideal conditions where no crs die and the sexes are even. $5 x 50 = $250 if they are all A grades. Which you can sell easily in the toronto market.

This is a very basic/ general tutorial, I will get into more specifics with future posts. Add any comments, questions, or concerns.


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## Sinerviz

Since I am still fairly new to the shrimp hobby, this is absolutely amazing!

Thank you so much for taking the time to put together all this awesome information for people like myself. I have a starfire cube that is cycling right now, getting ready for some CRS's. I currently have some A/B/C's in a little tank but I think I'll likely sell those guys and go with TT's and/or No Entrys for the nice new setup. I wish the Netlea shrimp soil was easier to find! I used the Fluval stratum and I am hearing not so great things 

Thanks again!


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## Jung

Here's a question, for the drip method, if the room temperature is bellow your tank temp, is it safe to drip outside the tank?


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## Kerohime

Jung said:


> Here's a question, for the drip method, if the room temperature is bellow your tank temp, is it safe to drip outside the tank?


Good question, if you drip too slowly, the shrimp might be shocked when you pour them back into your tank. =o


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Sinerviz said:


> Since I am still fairly new to the shrimp hobby, this is absolutely amazing!
> 
> Thank you so much for taking the time to put together all this awesome information for people like myself. I have a starfire cube that is cycling right now, getting ready for some CRS's. I currently have some A/B/C's in a little tank but I think I'll likely sell those guys and go with TT's and/or No Entrys for the nice new setup. I wish the Netlea shrimp soil was easier to find! I used the Fluval stratum and I am hearing not so great things
> 
> Thanks again!


No problem sinerviz, I wanted to show everyone interested in the hobby that it isn't as difficult as most people think.

Selling your shrimps sounds like a great idea and the way to sell your A's is by offering a free B/C for every 2 A's they buy. However, keep in mind that if you added a snow or golden shrimp, they will cross with the crs producing A, S and even S+ in their off springs with very beautiful white colors.

The netlea is at aqua inspirations the only store in canada authorized to sell them. I'm currently using it and loving this stuff. I will post a pic of my shrimp designated tank ( most optimal for shrimp breeding) when I get home in 2 hours.


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## Sinerviz

Hmmm maybe I'll try that way of breeding in the tank they are in... can't hurt! I didn't realize it was possible to do something like that. I was sold all the CRS's as B/C's but when comparing to the grading guides on planet inverts, they are at least A's because they have nice white stripes.. not overrun with red like the B/C's in the guide.

I went to AI and they only had the Netlea Brown Soil. Not the Shrimp Soil... I bought a bag of it anyhow for the next planted tank I setup. I think I might be getting a couple of their starfire cubes! At $60 you can't go wrong!! The quality is amazing!



CrystalMethShrimp said:


> No problem sinerviz, I wanted to show everyone interested in the hobby that it isn't as difficult as most people think.
> 
> Selling your shrimps sounds like a great idea and the way to sell your A's is by offering a free B/C for every 2 A's they buy. However, keep in mind that if you added a snow or golden shrimp, they will cross with the crs producing A, S and even S+ in their off springs with very beautiful white colors.
> 
> The netlea is at aqua inspirations the only store in canada authorized to sell them. I'm currently using it and loving this stuff. I will post a pic of my shrimp designated tank ( most optimal for shrimp breeding) when I get home in 2 hours.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Kerohime said:


> Good question, if you drip too slowly, the shrimp might be shocked when you pour them back into your tank. =o


Yup they will be shocked. Most tanks are 1-2 degrees more if not the same as room temp ( which doesn't matter)
Your case is only if the room is cold and you already have a heater inside the tank to bring it back up to 22-24. Then I would allow to drip fast for 1 hour and put a towel to cover the top of the bucket.

I will also add a liter of tank water and let sit for 5 minutes right before I dump the crs in.


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## CrystalMethShrimp




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## camboy012406

hi man, just want to ask if what kind of hob filter would fit if that kind of spongefilter I will use?


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## RONY11

Can u give guidelines on how to take good care of baby shrimps till they come to adulthood. What n how much to feed them, etc. What could be the reasons for losing/babies dying after a month or two ?


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Hi sin,

Both soil are the same except the brown is more nutrient rich for plants and algae, and remember that crs loves to eat green algae. I wouldn't worry, since both soil will do an amazing job of bring your ph down to 6.4 which is the main reason for buying shrimp soil. 

I agree, their tanks are beautiful and oddly very inexpensive.


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## camboy012406

RONY11 said:


> Can u give guidelines on how to take good care of baby shrimps till they come to adulthood. What n how much to feed them, etc. What could be the reasons for losing/babies dying after a month or two ?


dirty water


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Chapter 2: Baby Deaths

Baby deaths is a common occurrence with both beginner and medium level hobbyists have. I've lost countless babies myself, but in the process I did learn a few things.
There are many variables / factors that can kill a baby crs. We can only find the answer through a process of elimination and the best method of doing this is by looking the most probable causes first. Let me start by informing you that a typical mother in ideal conditions can give birth from 10 to 20 babies in a single batch. Not all the babies will live past the first week let alone the first month.










A small portion of deaths (10%-50%) will be attributed to weak genetics. Since this is currently out of our control we will focus on other areas.










The main causes of crs deaths will firstly be water conditions and secondly food source.

Ideal water conditions are based on accurate parameters and water stability.
First off invest in a good bag of shrimp soil. Too many people take shortcuts here including myself with peat/leaves/co2 and we wind with lots of crs baby deaths and a few adults here and there while we scratch our heads puzzled. You know you'll end up buying the soil regardless and in the mean time you would of wasted time/money/and countless crs deaths.

You need R/O water, crs prefer a tds(total dissolved solids) of less then 300us.










My newly setup crs tank's is a success with the shrimp soil and R/O water. I've never seen my crs so vibrant and active.
My parameters are 6.4ph/6gh/2kh(you'll need to buy a gh/kh tester kit, no way around it) temp 22, NO3<10ppm (this is very important to the health of your crs, and obviously ammonia/NO2 are both at 0ppm) and all you really need is the soil and ro water, that's it!

Now the difficult part is keeping all of this stable. Something I had to learn the hard way and now you'll learn it the easy way after reading the this.
-avoid co2, they cause ph swings, are hard to control, and commercial/profession breeders rarely touch the stuff.
-keep tank in a room with stable temp. My room is 22-23 degrees consistently day and night. Avoid keeping your tank near windows as the temp can drop rapidly overnight and beware of computers as they can heat up a room very quickly, especially with the door closed ( this is why some office buildings leave their comp on 24/7 and leave the heater off during fall and spring)
-keep water changes small, and at similar temps. Remember to replace any additives you remove such as mosura mineral plus (I will be doing a review on products/store review in my upcoming posts)

In order to master this skill you must practice and be aware of "water discipline" and no shortcuts.
The more you practice the easier it gets, I promise.

For crs baby food source, all you need is the double sponge filter (I picked up from AI for $10) which my babies love to climb all over to find food and tons of surface area for the bacteria they enjoy to grow. I use baby food like shirakiku from Menagerie, or Waka ebi from theshrimplab.com which has great baby food at the most affordable prices and is already sol out but check back soon.



















Keep in mind the babies don't eat the baby food, rather it feeds the bacteria and help them to multiply. The babies then eat the bacteria. Read the feeding instructions on the labels and then reduce by half. All commercial products instruct us to use a lot more then we need so we'll have to buy more sooner. "rinse then repeat" sound familiar?

Water parameters/stability and food source, this alone accounts 80% for cause of death among baby crs. (Excluding genetic deaths)

I'm currently able to maintain these parameters and my babies are active and healthy. Something I cannot claim in my previous tank which lacked the soil and sponge.


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## RONY11

CrystalMethShrimp I PM'd u with my specific problem.
My tank parameters r (checked 2day) PH 6.4 KH 2 GH 5 Temp 22-23 
I have a temp.controller attached to fans which go on the minute the temp. rises above 23 degrees. My heater (Sera) is at 22 degrees, I do not disconnect my heater during summers as well. Light is on for 8 hrs on timer, 
0.5 watt per litre, tank is 24 lts net. I feed sparingly.


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## bettaforu

I don't use RO water I have straight tap water that is conditioned with Amquel+. I feed Mosura Gravidas and Mosura Bio Plus, as well as Hikari algae wafer, Shirakura shrimp food. I feed every other day, sparingly! I don't clean the bottom of my shrimp tanks, I have brig snails in these tanks, and they clean up any left over food very quickly.

I have currently over 100+ babies of all ages, and new babies and mammas berried again! I have Fluval stratum soil in this 10 gallon square tank with a piece of dragon lace rock and moss floating in the tank. I have left 3 sides of my tank with algae growing on it which feeds the babies, including new ones! Temp is room at 70F year round, no heater, and light is on 12 hours daily.

Algae is also growing on my rocks too. ALL new babies need algae to feed off, so by removing algae from your tanks as some people do, you are depriving the shrimps of natural food source!

Sponge filters are great for breeding tanks as all shrimps will eat any biofilm on those including the new babies! I use one HOB filter and one sponge in each tank.


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## camboy012406

hi anna I want to see your babies


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## TBemba

Question: How do you do water changes? I figure if you have expensive shrimp you wouldn't want to suck them up.

Percent of water change and how it's done.

thanks


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## CrystalMethShrimp

camboy012406 said:


> hi man, just want to ask if what kind of hob filter would fit if that kind of spongefilter I will use?


Hey camboy. The filter I have it hOoked up to is a marina slim which I picked up from AI for only $20. But I've also tested it with many other aqua clear filters and they all fit, though not very snug.










With the double sponge filter just remove the top 90 degree bend(black plastic piece) On the filter remove the intake piece. Now there should be a hole in the motor where the intake piece was. Just stick in the double sponge filter and your set.










I'm sure this double sponge intake will fit any filter. My eheim which I'm cycling right now in another tank will be fitted to this piece next week. Hopefully it's a snug fit but if not I'll just go to lowdepot and buy a small piece of tubing($2) to connect the two. Hope that answers your question.

It's so much fun to watch your shrimps climb all over, in and between the slits. They love this and I'm really glad AI had it for only $10.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Thanks for these tips Anna. I'm one of the guilty parties responsible for removing my algae and that was a great point.

For those new to gta or the inverts section, Anna is one of the first and most experienced breeders here in Toronto. She is full of great advice and I'm looking forward to her adding her expertise as we develop this thread. Perhaps you could give us a review on the mosura gravidas? (shrimp viagara)



TBemba said:


> Question: How do you do water changes? I figure if you have expensive shrimp you wouldn't want to suck them up.
> 
> Percent of water change and how it's done.
> 
> thanks


Either siphon the water without sucking anything near the bottom or use a cup and remove 10%-15% of the tank water every week. Then replace with R/O (reverse osmosis) water. If you have to use tap, then let it sit in a pale/bucket with some primer (removes chlorine/chloromine) for atleast 24 hours.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

My shrimps love organic spinach and frankly so do I.


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## Alexpatrascu

I currently have a co2 system in my tank that I bought especially for these two purposes: keeping the ph to 6.4 - 6.5 and to give my plants some extra carbon....my tap comes at 7.4 and I use tap+RO at 1+2 parts(I'll switch to 1+3 parts in my new 40 gal).

The co2 is running with a solenoid connected to a SMS 122 pH meter.

You're saying I should drop the co2 option and go for the Fluval shrimp soil(the only shrimp soil available in Montreal) ?!?!

I have a 40 gal shallow tank(36Lx18lx15H) that I'm planning on starting ASAP and I was thinking of moving the black sand(*CaribSea*) that I have now in my 25 gal and to add the extra 20 pounds that I bought especially for this new setup.....now if I were to start the new tank with Fluval soil it's gonna cost me a fortune and besides that, what about the "expiration date" of the shrimp soil ?!?!?......what am I supposed to do after 1 year when the soil is gonna loose its ph lowering properties ?!?!??!

The main purpose of the new tank is gonna be the aquascape and...I'll add some CRS as the only fauna in the tank(and maybe my 5 otos)



TBemba said:


> Question: How do you do water changes? I figure if you have expensive shrimp you wouldn't want to suck them up.


With my RCS I was sucking up the water from the bottom so I can get as much bad stuff out of the tank in a 5gal bucket and them I was scooping out any sucked frys from the bucket with a spoon !!!


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Alex I'm sorry to hear that you can't get netlea or Ada. Both soil can last from 1.5-2 years if you use r/o water. Keep this in mind however, many people have the belief that they can keep crs in a beautiful aquascape. This was my belief for the past year where I had a heavily planted tank with co2. The truth I now realize is that if You use co2 You can for sure expect low birth rates and even some CRs baby deaths. In fact chapter 3 will be about crs deaths.

If your intention is to grow a large thriving population if crs get the soil and ditch the co2/fish. If you want a beautiful aquascape get a separate tank like I finally tank. If you attempt to keep both by trying a balancing act you will lose slot of crs and they will breed slowly for you. Why don't you use the 25 gal as your crs tank and your 40 gal as your aquascape, when you have a large enough population you can transfer the lowers grades into the 40 gal so that the 25 gal will produce higher grade offsprings. For a 25 gal you'll only need two 4 kg bag which should give you about 1.5 inch of flat substrate


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## camboy012406

my shrimps really like spinach too


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## Alexpatrascu

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Alex I'm sorry to hear that you can't get netlea or Ada. Both soil can last from 1.5-2 years if you use r/o water. Keep this in mind however, many people have the belief that they can keep crs in a beautiful aquascape. This was my belief for the past year where I had a heavily planted tank with co2. The truth I now realize is that if You use co2 You can for sure expect low birth rates and even some CRs baby deaths. In fact chapter 3 will be about crs deaths.


Yeah, maybe I'll get some Netlea or ADA when I'll come visiting Toronto with my folks.....*how much do you think I should get for my 40gal tank(36Lx18l) ?!?!*

And do you think I could grow plants in a shrimp soil without too many problems ?

I like the look of a shrimp tank that has only some java fern on a piece of driftwood and some moss but I'd also love to have my dream aquascape !!!

PS: waiting for chapter 3-4-5....


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## bettaforu

I am also using the Marina i25 inside filter for my new custom tanks....it keeps the water very nice and clear and doesn't make any noise at all...if you don't like the sound of bubbling water which some people don't (I find it soothing and often want to fall asleep at the computer which is in my fishroom) 

The Marina i25 is a small compact filtration system (you replace the insert as needed and they are fairly cheap) Filter costs approx $15 + tx and Petsmart 
and PJs sells them.

They don't take up much room in your tank space, and just hang from a hook off the top rim of your tank inside...very compact and efficient! Water is smooth out of the inlet and doesn't create huge water columns beneath it where shrimp can get washed up in. I use a nylon sock to cover the intake part so no babies get caught in it, and they shrimps like to hang on the nylon where biofilm gathers!

Camboy: The photos were all on fastpictures.com which has gone down, and taken all my photos with them...now I have to try to upload all of them to photobucket, so will take time! I will find them and post here when I can.
not all 100+ babies are in the same tank....I have them in 4 different tanks.


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## CrystalMethShrimp




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## CrystalMethShrimp

Hey Alex, when you come to Toronto head over to AI in markham, about 30 minutes from the 401 ( main highway youll be coming from Montreal) and I would grab a bag of Ada. A single 9 lb bag can cover your tank by about 1-1.5 inches flat. I would however grab 2 bags since it will lose it's ph lowering capacity in about 1-2 years depending on whether or not you use R/O water. 
For $46 bucks with shipping included it's a steal. Just to ship a single 9 lb bag from Asia would cost over $60.

Im starting to prefer the look you described. Very clean and I noticed now with a lack of plants, I can actually see the majority of my crs. Both java fern and moss can grow well in a low nutrient/ low co2 setting.





















Alexpatrascu said:


> Yeah, maybe I'll get some Netlea or ADA when I'll come visiting Toronto with my folks.....*how much do you think I should get for my 40gal tank(36Lx18l) ?!?!*
> 
> And do you think I could grow plants in a shrimp soil without too many problems ?
> 
> I like the look of a shrimp tank that has only some java fern on a piece of driftwood and some moss but I'd also love to have my dream aquascape !!!
> 
> PS: waiting for chapter 3-4-5....


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## TLe041

For a 40 gallon tank you'll definitely need more than just one 9L bag of Aquasoil. Just to give you an idea, in my Mini-L (about 8.2 gallons), I used two of the 3L bags to get a 1.5-2" deep substrate. In my Mini-M (about 5.5 gallons) I used about 6L in total.

Here's the link to my tanks on TPT.


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## Alexpatrascu

TLe041 said:


> For a 40 gallon tank you'll definitely need more than just one 9L bag of Aquasoil. Just to give you an idea, in my Mini-L (about 8.2 gallons), I used two of the 3L bags to get a 1.5-2" deep substrate. In my Mini-M (about 5.5 gallons) I used about 6L in total.
> 
> Here's the link to my tanks on TPT.


Well you see, this is one thing I'm not sure of.....is 9L = 9 pounds ?!?!?

After all I can decide on the spot how much as I see the bags are somewhat transparent(unlike the Fluval).

I think 2 bags are enough for my setup.

Actually I have two tanks that I could use:
1. 30 gal(30Lx18lx13H)
2. 40 gal(36Lx18lx15H)

I haven't decided which one I'm gonna use but I can always start the 30 gal and save a little on the substrate.

One last thing....which one should I go for: ADA - Netlea - Fluval ?!?!


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## TLe041

Alexpatrascu said:


> Well you see, this is one thing I'm not sure of.....is 9L = 9 pounds ?!?!?


ADA sells their bags by volume in either 3L or 9L and not by weight. I have no idea what the weight equivalence is.



Alexpatrascu said:


> One last thing....which one should I go for: ADA - Netlea - Fluval ?!?!


I would rule the Fluval substrate out. Reviews on it from users have been poor to mixed at best. Either ADA AS or the Netlea would be fine.

In my next crystal shrimp tank I'll be going for this substrate. It's $$$ but it's one of if not the best that's available.


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## coldmantis

I remember weighing the bag of ada when I first got it, it was around 18, 19lbs, I just got 2x4kg of the fluval for I think $47 tax in. I used it on a 20g long 30x12. I know for sure that 1 bag of ada is enough for 30x12.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Alexpatrascu said:


> Well you see, this is one thing I'm not sure of.....is 9L = 9 pounds ?!?!?
> 
> After all I can decide on the spot how much as I see the bags are somewhat transparent(unlike the Fluval).
> 
> I think 2 bags are enough for my setup.
> 
> Actually I have two tanks that I could use:
> 1. 30 gal(30Lx18lx13H)
> 2. 40 gal(36Lx18lx15H)
> 
> I haven't decided which one I'm gonna use but I can always start the 30 gal and save a little on the substrate.
> 
> One last thing....which one should I go for: ADA - Netlea - Fluval ?!?!


Oops, the ada is a 9litre not 9 pounds, my mistake. I've also measured the weight of a full bag and it's 9kg about 20 lbs.

I would get the ADA as it's one of the most famous and widely brands used across the world and one 9L bag is enough for the 30gal. Remember what I said though, the bigger the tank the better for crs as the water is more stable, they breed faster, and you have a larger population cap when it goes over 500 crs x $5 = $2500 yikes!!


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## Alexpatrascu

Yeah, well I guess a 30 gal is enough to raise CRS.

The only problem is that I don't have access to any ADA/Netlea products in this fricking town so I'm really pissed....any1 comming to Montreal/surroundings soon  ?!?

Does anyone knows where I could get some ADA/Netlea online with smaller shipping charges ?!?....if needed, I can order 3-4 bags for free shipping !!!

And Leo, that quite expensive buddy, good luck.


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## camboy012406

Alexpatrascu said:


> Yeah, well I guess a 30 gal is enough to raise CRS.
> 
> The only problem is that I don't have access to any ADA/Netlea products in this fricking town so I'm really pissed....any1 comming to Montreal/surroundings soon  ?!?
> 
> Does anyone knows where I could get some ADA/Netlea online with smaller shipping charges ?!?....if needed, I can order 3-4 bags for free shipping !!!
> 
> And Leo, that quite expensive buddy, good luck.


try fluval stratum for shrimp or akadama for bonsai plants its good though


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## Alexpatrascu

Yeah, I guess I'll go with Fluval this time.

A buddy of mine that used to work at a petshop and he can get stuff for 50% off so I guess I'll tyalk to him maybe he can get me 2x4Kg bags of Fluval.

Here in MTL its 31$+tx for a 4Kg bag....I guess two bags are more than enough for a 30 gal(30Lx18lx13H)


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## coldmantis

for 18width to be safe I would go with 2x4kg and 1x2kg, because with 2x4kg I don't think your reach 1.5inch high


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## Alexpatrascu

Yeah, that's one way to go.....

But for now I'll try to find some1 in GTA that comes to MTL or some1 in MTL that goes to GTA so I can ask them to get me 2x9L of ADA or Netlea from AI !!!

Any other place in GTA that carries ADA or Netlea ?!?


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## CrystalMethShrimp

I'll probably come up in july with some friends for a long weekend or something. Remind me in June and I'll bring you up a few bags.


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## Alexpatrascu

Well thanks for the offer CMS, I really appreciate it, but I have my folks visiting in July and we'll come to Toronto to see some old friends so.....I kinda need it ASAP !!!


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Hey alex pm sent.


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## Alexpatrascu

PM received and answered.

Thanks CMS


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## solarz

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> You need R/O water, crs prefer a tds(total dissolved solids) of less then 300us.
> 
> My newly setup crs tank's is a success with the shrimp soil and R/O water. I've never seen my crs so vibrant and active.
> My parameters are 6.4ph/6gh/2kh(you'll need to buy a gh/kh tester kit, no way around it) temp 22, NO3<10ppm (this is very important to the health of your crs, and obviously ammonia/NO2 are both at 0ppm) and all you really need is the soil and ro water, that's it!


I have a question about this. According to this site that I found, 300 us corresponds to 150ppm TDS, which, if divided by 17.8, gives 8.4 dGH! Toronto tap water, IIRC, has a dGH of 6-7.

So I'm wondering, why use R/O at all? I imagine that the main purpose of R/O would be to lower TDS, yet, it seems that tap water TDS should be acceptable to CRS?

Also, is it possible to breed CRS by feeding nothing but spinach? What about other vegetables/fruits like carrots, yams, mango? (Basically, whatever scrap I end up with...)


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## Alexpatrascu

Well AFAIK, the CRS do best in GH of max 2-4 and beside that, RO water should have a GH of ~0 making the pH/GH adjustment(by the soil) easier as it has no bufering capacity.


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## solarz

Alexpatrascu said:


> Well AFAIK, *the CRS do best in GH of max 2-4* and beside that, RO water should have a GH of ~0 making the pH/GH adjustment(by the soil) easier as it has no bufering capacity.


That's what I'm wondering, as CrystalMeth is saying he keeps CRS at a GH of 6.4, which is pretty close to tap water...


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## CrystalMethShrimp

My Gh is low from the R/O I use.
I bump it up to 4-6 using mosura mineral.

Although my Tds goes up a bit, it's still lower then tap and doesn't have all the extra minerals that tap water have. 


Look at it this way, say for example crs have a 85% survival rate in a 20 gal with ideal conditions( ro water, proper diet, perfect water parameter)

Now you change these conditions for let's say convenience purposes. 
You use tap instead of ro -10%
Instead of organic spinach and proper crs food you feed non organic mango/ lettuce/ avocado -5%
your temp is 26 instead of the ideal 22 degrees -15%
you stress them by keeping them with fish -15%
your tank is only 5 gal and you use co2 with ph swings and bad media for nitrifying bacteria to grow -15%
You don't use shrimp soil with ph of 6.4 rather tap with 7.6 ph -10%

In total you down from 80% survival rate of crs to only 10% if you cut all these corners. This of course includes new borne so for many of you question about baby deaths this I where you need to pay attention.

Now these of course are general estimates and Genetics also plays a role in determining how much a crs can tolerate and still survive let alone give birth. 
But this should give you a pretty clear picture of how shortcuts and a lack of attention can easily lead to inconspicuous deaths which you are directly in control of.


----------



## solarz

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> My Gh is low from the R/O I use.
> I bump it up to 4-6 using mosura mineral.
> 
> Although my Tds goes up a bit, it's still lower then tap and doesn't have all the extra minerals that tap water have.
> 
> Look at it this way, say for example crs have a 85% survival rate in a 20 gal with ideal conditions( ro water, proper diet, perfect water parameter)
> 
> Now you change these conditions for let's say convenience purposes.
> You use tap instead of ro -10%
> Instead of organic spinach and proper crs food you feed non organic mango/ lettuce/ avocado -5%


Why would it be better to use RO and then re-mineralize it, instead of using tap? What benefit does mineral rock offer over tap?

As for spinach, what i'd like to know is:
1- is it possible to feed CRS only spinach? And...
2- if yes, why is spinach such an ideal food for CRS?


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## CrystalMethShrimp

From what I've read on many posts and my own experience, using tap depends primarily on where you live hence the different kinds of tap water you receive. For example Frank over in Vancouver has soft 7.0 ph water and thus can directly use his tap. However this is not the case here in Toronto. We have hard water at a ph of 7.6 full of heavy metals. The point of using R/O is to remove all those metals/ chemicals and only add the specific minerals that crs require such as calcium. 

A Gh of 2-4 is too low for molting so that's why it's important to bring the gH up to 4-6 with minerals specially designed to harden the crs shells and help them molt.

As for spinach I've read that a lot of breeders only feed this to their shrimps as it is very rich in protein. Since then my crs diet consists 80% of organic spinach and 20% of mosura excel, indian almond leaves, algae wafer, and blood worms to give them a treat with variety.


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## zenkeri

*r/o water*

Hi Crystalmethshrimp: thanks for starting this thread. It is very useful. I'm currently starting a 20gal tank w/ netlea brown soil, also purchased an R/O Unit. I was wondering what percentage of tap water and r/o water you are using. I live in Scarborough so same GTA water. And w/ regards to replacing the lost minerals, what product are you using? thanks


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## laurahmm

Hi CrystalMeth,

I just wanted to verify this as Im having a molting crisis right now. Do you only use 100% RO water and supplement with mosuramineral plus or do you also use tap water? If you use tap water what percentage is tap and how long do you let it sit for before you use it? I apologize if you answered this question already in one of your posts but there was a lot of information to absorb. I'm wondering if I should do straight RO water and sup with mosuramineral plus or use some tap. Also the mosuramineral plus directions is to divide the amount over 3 days so do you do a 10% water change every day? Or do you divide the 10 or 15% water change for those three days hence only doing a 5% water change let's say? Thank you!


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## Zebrapl3co

Lol, poor CrystalMeth is getting swamped.

Let's clear up some clutters first.



solarz said:


> I have a question about this. According to this site that I found, 300 us corresponds to 150ppm TDS, which, if divided by 17.8, gives 8.4 dGH! Toronto tap water, IIRC, has a dGH of 6-7...


150 ppm TDS is not equal to 8.4 dGH - there is a bit of relation but is more complicated than just dividing it by 17.8.
This might help explain things more clearly to you: http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hardness.htm

As for using spinach as the only source of food ... well you can, but personally I'd give my shrimp a bit of varieties of food. The main reason is that spinach don't grow in rivers. It's not the shrimps' natural source of food. It's a substitute food, there may be certain minerals that are missing from it's diet that may cause weaker strain with each generation. So I'd rotate a variety of diet to make sure this won't happen.

Spinach is a good choice because it is rich in nutritional content and high in iron (not sure if that's a good thing) and most importantly calcium. It covers a lot of ground in terms of variety. But I won't be so bold as to say it covers everything.

edit:
Also, remeber this: certain food at the right time (usually after a water change) causes breeding behaviour. If you are stuck on one type of food, your shrimp may never breed no matter how healthy they are.

As for R/O water. It's also a choice. Some people find it easier to control what's in the water by using R/O water and then add the minerals they think the shrimp needs.
Others opted for a mixture of R/O water and tap water to make sure they cover all the shrimps requirement.
There are also many that use tap water as well. Toronto tap water is still good for CRS, but it needs a bit of tweaking to lower the pH (and that's where the soil comes in, as it's the easiest method for beginners.)

edit addition:
If you opted for the R/O - tap mix, it's really hard to give a figure or pecentage. Every tank is different, having plants or types of substrate can make a huge difference. So what works for one person may not work for another. Start with at %50 - %50 and experiment to find your medium. Good observation of your shrimps health and behaviour goes a long way. But if you manage to grow a shrimp from shrimplette to sub adult, then it's consider a success. Then work on increasing the % of baby survival rate.

more edit:
And when you finally get a shrimp explosion (as in 10% - 20% is always burried), you'd know that you find that perfect sweet spot.

Hope that helps clear up some of the questions. 

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Thanks zerbra 
I completely forgot about the iron and calcium in spinach 

Btw what's tab water? LoL

As zebra mentioned, the mixture is based on personal choice and the key to remember is to keep the water stable for as long as possible, this means it's actually better to avoid water changes for 3 weeks rather then every 2-3 days. Crs loves old/aged water. (This is also a main reason not to feed them too much) keep your water clean!

Personally during my water changes in my 7 gallon, I take out 15% with a cup then into a beer pitcher (dollar store) I then refill the pitcher from my RO 18.9L water jug and add 0.5 ml Mosura mineral plus. (Make sure to shake the bottle heavily before use) 

If you are setting up a brand new tank, it's 5 ml per 5L of tank water. Do not add directly as this will cause gh shock to your crs. I scoop out 1 pitcher of water from tank, add 2.5ml of mineral plus, stir then pour it back evenly/slowly over the entire tank. Skip a day then repeat until you have the correct amount.

And yes I do use 10% tap water to bring my ph up to 6.4-6.6 as netlea soil is able to bring ph to down 6.2-6.4
In the end using tap water anywhere from 10-20% is fine but beyond that I would personally avoid it.


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## zenkeri

*water parameters*

thanks Zebra and Crytalmeth. This info will help alot!!


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## Kerohime

It seems like alot of people are benefitting from this thread. 

Thanks to CrystalMetha and all the contributing people. 

I suggest pinning this topic, since there are no pinned topics in this section of the forums and alot of questions are getting repeated through threads.


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## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> ...Btw what's tab water? LoL ...


Lol ack!

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Hey I like your suggestion Kero 

I've been doing alot of research on both forums and blogs lately then cross checking with a few advanced crs breeders. I'm hoping to have chapter 3 ready before the weekend. It will be primarily based the basics of crs grading and coloring, the difference between jprl, golden mixed, snow mixed. Then I'll touch on a bit more advanced area such as how to breed the best colors with which combination of shrimps and their genetics. Hope you guys are ready for grade 10 science class again! .......

I've already posted this on another thread but I think I will accumulate it here in a little TnT section (nope not the Lablaws owned Chinese supermarket) rather Tips and Tricks.

TnT 1.1 How to feed organic Spinach 

This is what's worked for me for the last 8 months.

-I buy a bag of organic baby(preferred) spinach
-separate all the small leaves and keep them in a zip lock or plastic wrap (have the rest for a salad)
-keep in freezer as long as you like
-boil some water in an electric kettle (every house hold that drinks coffee/tea or eats instant spicy Korean ramen should have one of these)
-take out a small piece from feezer and put in mug with boiled water. I use a beer opener to weight mine down.
-let it sit for 10 minutes
-then feed every other day


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## CrystalMethShrimp

There are a couple of key points that Zebra made I want to reemphasize. 

" certain food at the right time (usually after a water change) causes breeding behaviour."
"if you manage to grow a shrimp from shrimplette to sub adult, then it's consider a success. Then work on increasing the % of baby survival rate."

"And when you finally get a shrimp explosion (as in 10% - 20% is always burried), you'd know that you find that perfect sweet spot."

Absolutely. This is when you know all your shrimp needs are met and they are comfortable to breed. My tank has about 60 crs and 3 are berried so half way there. My next step is to do a 20% W/C tonight followed by a feedingof organic spinach.


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## Alexpatrascu

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> There are a couple of key points that Zebra made I want to reemphasize.
> 
> " certain food at the right time (usually after a water change) causes breeding behaviour."...........


OK but maybe some1 should tell us what re those foods !!!


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## bigfishy

Since this thread is base on your CRS experience, does this guideline apply to other kind of shrimps such as Blue Tiger, Wine Red, Panda, Blue Crystal and Purple Crystal?

In your opinion, does it have the same requirement as CRS? or different?

< I just want something different from other people


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## laurahmm

*Which soil is best would you say?*

If you had the choice of ADA, netlea or Red Bee soil would you say they are all equal or one is a lot better than the others? I wanted to set up another larger tank with ss and sss. Would it be worth it to invest in Red Bee soil you think? Thanks!


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## Zebrapl3co

Alexpatrascu said:


> OK but maybe some1 should tell us what re those foods !!!


Sorry, but I am reluctant to specifically point to one kind of food because I still think that I have yet to get it right, but usually a high protien (meaty food) diet gets them going. But it didn't work 100% of the time, I still have to find out why. But one sure sign is that when a couple of the males shrimp does the superman thing, then you'll know that the female release some kind of hormone that get them going.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## camboy012406

this means it's actually better to avoid water changes for 3 weeks rather then every 2-3 days. Crs loves old/aged water. (This is also a main reason not to feed them too much) keep your water clean!

In the end using tap water anywhere from 10-20% is fine but beyond that I would personally avoid it.[/QUOT

Well, man If you don't water change for 3 weekS In the end your shrimp is at risk for nitrate, hydras, planarias and other diseases that can kill them all. Better to do often water change, I do like 20% 2x a week pure tap with no problem and my shrimps are still breeding like crazy shit. Also performing water change helps them to molt regularly and grow fast.


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## coldmantis

this is very debatable, try your own way and see what works, for my personal experience, doing little water changes every week I never had a baby crs live pass 2 weeks not doing water changes period the babies survive pass a month but then died probably due to food, harrassment from the 100's of yellows and the many bullying amanos or general overfeeding. Now I'm changing my feeding habits, I feed mon,wed,fri, then starve for sat,sun and repeat.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

You are correct camboy if the aquarist was new to crs keeping and had a habit of over feeding. He will have planaria on a consistent basis with large amounts of nitrates. In truth it is better to keep aged water for numerous reason.

Crs are sensitive to parameter changes so By having 2 wc per week can be very harmful to them. They much rather prefer aged water that are rich in nitrifying bacteria, this doesn't necessarily mean water that is full of nitrates or planaria because an experienced breeder would feed every other day in small quantities. Keep in mind that bacteria feed off the bio matter from crs poop and left over food, while larger organisms feed off the bacteria, then tiny animals like copodes feed off the organisms and illness causing parasites. If your water changes are too frequent you do not allow the water to become mature and develop this beneficial Eco chain.



camboy012406 said:


> this means it's actually better to avoid water changes for 3 weeks rather then every 2-3 days. Crs loves old/aged water. (This is also a main reason not to feed them too much) keep your water clean!
> 
> In the end using tap water anywhere from 10-20% is fine but beyond that I would personally avoid it.[/QUOT
> 
> Well, man If you don't water change for 3 weekS In the end your shrimp is at risk for nitrate, hydras, planarias and other diseases that can kill them all. Better to do often water change, I do like 20% 2x a week pure tap with no problem and my shrimps are still breeding like crazy shit. Also performing water change helps them to molt regularly and grow fast.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

bigfishy said:


> Since this thread is base on your CRS experience, does this guideline apply to other kind of shrimps such as Blue Tiger, Wine Red, Panda, Blue Crystal and Purple Crystal?
> 
> In your opinion, does it have the same requirement as CRS? or different?
> 
> < I just want something different from other people


Hey markham neighbor, this is based on my personal experience with crs and with all knowledge I've obtained from forums and discussions with breeders. I believe they come hand in hand as I would only feed confident in posting others knowledge with which I've tried myself and can objectively review the outcomes. If I write a page long thread on say, orange eye black tiger shrimps, I would simply be regurgitating other peoples knowledge which may or may not be true and can often contradict each other. By only posting about crs I am able to share a wide range of information that's been filtered and broken down to make sense for most beginner/intermediate crs keepers.

That being said, the areas I went over on water conditions would universally apply to any shrimps, which are to keep parameters stable, clean, and to the specific species requirements.

If your looking to keep something more "unique" I encourage you to start with trainning wheels if your new to the shrimp hobby, aka cherries, or low grade crs. You will inadvertantly kills shrimps for sure in the first few months, better to start with less sensitive shrimps for training purposes, don't you think so?


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## CrystalMethShrimp

laurahmm said:


> If you had the choice of ADA, netlea or Red Bee soil would you say they are all equal or one is a lot better than the others? I wanted to set up another larger tank with ss and sss. Would it be worth it to invest in Red Bee soil you think? Thanks!


Hey laura, although choosing the right shrimp soil is important, it's only a small factor to keeping high grade sss crs. You need to keep your focus on water quality/ stability, cross breeding to strength the gene pool, and to handle them properly.

All three soils would work perfectly, however I would recommend getting the New ADA amaonzia 2. They've opened a new dig site and are claiming the new formula is a 50:50 ratio of amazonia I and II so you get the benefits of both soil. Check with aqua inspiration, I think they carry it.

The red bee soil is an over kill and just so you know, there are over a dozen other asian brands at that price range. 
If your looking to spend the $$ I'd go with Gex.


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## TBemba

CrystalMethShrimp, Great advise thanks for the information!

What are your thoughts on keeping corydoras with shrimp? I have read that they don't eat shrimp or even shrimplets because of the shape of their mouths, but do help control the uneaten foods.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

TBemba said:


> CrystalMethShrimp, Great advise thanks for the information!
> 
> What are your thoughts on keeping corydoras with shrimp? I have read that they don't eat shrimp or even shrimplets because of the shape of their mouths, but do help control the uneaten foods.


You can try it. 
but do you want to add something into your tank that takes up O2 and releases extra nitrates to your clean water?

Snails are perfect for cleaning up extra food. But please be careful not to over feed in the first place! Once you get planaria, its a nightmare. They eat your crs if left uncontrolled, and the only way to kill them is with chemicals in your water that can deform your crs if you overdosed. I spent a good part of 2 months manually picking them off of my tank glass, and they never go away 100%. I tore my tank apart and rebuilt it and again they came back. That's how easy it is to over feed. Never leave food for more then an hour.


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## solarz

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> You can try it.
> but do you want to add something into your tank that takes up O2 and releases extra nitrates to your clean water?
> 
> Snails are perfect for cleaning up extra food. But please be careful not to over feed in the first place! Once you get planaria, its a nightmare. They eat your crs if left uncontrolled, and the only way to kill them is with chemicals in your water that can deform your crs if you overdosed. I spent a good part of 2 months manually picking them off of my tank glass, and they never go away 100%. I tore my tank apart and rebuilt it and again they came back. That's how easy it is to over feed. Never leave food for more then an hour.


I had planaria in my cherry shrimp IQ3, so I took the shrimp out and put in a guppy fry. A week later, I don't see any planaria on the glass anymore.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

That is a smart idea with cherries.

With crs they will lose their white if you stress them by netting them and moving them around. After I moved my crs to my new tank with 2 hours in a bucket for acclimating and parameters all the same, most of the adult crs lost their whites. They still have not recovered. A lot of them went from ss/s+ to b's. I'm very disappointed but the off springs held onto to their whites perfectly. In retrospect it makes sense that breeders only ship jurvies.

As you can see, a lot of the adults lost their white colors.
Oh and sorry guys for the delay on chapter 3, Its been a busy weekend but im half way through and I will have lots of goodies to share with you all.


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## bettaforu

In my high grade 10 gallon CRS tank I have approx 10 adults, 30+ juvies and new borns. 3 of my females are berried again, they are the mothers of the existing babies. There were 50+ babies in that tank about 1 month ago, and I moved them all to the 30 gallon growout to make more room for the new ones. I have not ever cleaned the bottom of that tank since startup over 6 months ago. I feed them in a little plant saucer at the front of the tank so I can see who's berried, who's new etc.

I don't touch this tank other than to top up with tap water PH 7.6 and just add the montmorillionite clay at that time, usually once every 2 weeks. I feed Algae wafers, Mosura Bio Plus/Gravidas, and sometimes even some Hikari Crab cuisine. I feed every other day! 

In my little 2.5 gallon tank I have 4 juvenile Mosura's, one Hino (she is berried again) and 10 Mosura juveniles, and now 10 new borns. Same feeding and water procedures. All the juvies are growing like crazy, will have to move them to the growout tank soon.

In my 12 gallon Low grade CRS tank, I have about 15 adults, and many babies, couldn't count them as they are all over the place. Same food/water procedure. 

All tanks have Fluval Stratum soil, sponge filters, hob filters, rocks and driftwood and moss and floating plants.

I think that sometimes people tamper too much with their tanks, trying to get the "Just right" combo. I leave my tanks alone, just check every few days for ammonia/nitrate/nitrites, if any show up I take out 10% water, and add the tap water conditioned with Amquel+ back.

My CRS have never lost any color! Even the ones I bring in from the US that are stressed....after 1 day of acclimatizing them, I put them in the tanks and 
have not had any problems with them losing color.

Adults shrimps as they age will lose the white more (from what I have read) and also berried females.

I also breed many types of Tiger and Neo shrimps....all are berried in my tanks. The water/food procedure is the same for all of my tanks. I have 14 tanks full of shrimps and crayfish!


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## Alexpatrascu

You make it sound so simple Anna...nice !!!


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## bettaforu

Alex, It might not work for everyone, but it definitely works for me. I stand by what an old hobbyist told me a long time ago....don't muck around with your tank parameters, once your tank is stable leave it alone!

IF you don't have any ammonia/nitrate/nitrites showing up in your tests, and your PH is fine for the particular shrimps in it ie: Crystals. Then leave it alone! IF your water goes down, then OK top it up, maybe add some mineral of sorts and some water conditioner and let it settle. That's my advice. 

I don't know what everyone has in their tanks, so I don't know what their problems are, but I find the more times you muck around with things the more you inevitably screw things up. So I do as little as possible to my tanks, and it seems to work just fine. 

I don't have one tank that doesn't have new babies in it, so somethings working right.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Chapter 3: Water

Hey guys, it's Jay here with another chapter on Crystal Red Shrimps. This section will focus on: water changes, R/O and Tap, and molt frequency. These topics have been discussed alot lately so I thought I'd write an in-depth post covering this area and let you decide for yourself which method you prefer. Grading, whitening, and genes will be bumped to the next chapter so I apologize about that. Before we begin keep in mind that methods/process which work for one person may not for another so keep an open and flexible mind. Okay so let's dive right in.

Molts are when a shrimp casts off its shell (euxium) in order to grow in size. In order for a shrimp to molt there must be enough minerals present in the water with a gh between 4-6. When the shell has hardened enough from minerals in the water they will increase their blood pressure (expands body) and thrust/burst out of the old shell. The way to trigger a molt is with a water change which will change your water parameters. Once this occurs it simulates rainfall and the shrimps being to molt. This is great with juvees as they molt at a faster rate then adults. However this is very dangerous for adults and one of the main cause of shrimp deaths. Ever find dead shrimps after a water change? The main reason is that adults shrimps take a much longer time to harden their shells then juvees. If a molt is triggered before they're shells are hardened from a previous molt, it will remain soft and get stuck especially near the mouth area, causing death. That is why shrimps require atleast 4-5 weeks in between molts, which will occur automatically even without a water change. This is also why IMHO water changes should maintain previous parameters and products like mosura eros and gravidas does more damage then good to the general public as most people dont understand the concept and thus use it incorrectly, again causing many deaths. The key is to leave your shrimps alone and keep the water stable. Professional breeders all spit this out like the 10 commandments. If you use Mosura Eros/Gravidas this will also trigger molts and cause problems if the shells have not hardened enough. I've spoken with a breeder in Germany and they said they only use it once per month. So it is a helpful tool if used correctly. Frequent molting will also decrease the life span of a crs. In short, let your shrimps molt when they are ready, and keep your gH (indication of whether you have enough minerals or too much) at a steady 4-6. A drop is GH after a water change of more then 2 is very dangerous. 

Here is what I do:
-Remove 15% water every Monday (weekly)
-Pour 20% r/o water into a bucket (compensate for evaporation)
-Add mineral plus into the bucket so the gH in tank and bucket both match. (I personally gave up on the GH testers as I can never tell when it's yellow or green. It's always lime Gurd Gurmmit! So I finally picked up a TDS meter. It's easy to use and so much more convenient as gh and ph are the most frequently tested parameters. Big Al's sells it for over $60 after taxes but I found the same one at Aqua Insp. for $40.)
-slowly add water back in or let sit if temps are different.
-Now small feeding and remove after 1 hour!

Twice per week is a challenge. Remember, unless you can precisely match the tanks parameters gH, kH, pH, and the most difficult TDS, it will trigger a forced molt. Which is not something we want. 


As I've always stated, CRS prefer R/O water over tap water. It's lower in tds, ph, and heavy metals, but there is another reason.
If you live downtown toronto by the lake then consider yourself fortunate as they only add chlorine in the tap water. Once you head away from the city like north york or Scarborough then it's a different story. In order to bring water to these areas the city pumps it from the lake to your local reservoirs. In most cases the water travels from reservoirs to reservoirs and for me living in Markham it means I'm always drinking week old water. Although not a big problem in winter, during the summer however, bacteria can grow in this enclosed system. This city combats this by adding Chloramine (chlorine + ammonia) which unlike chlorine does not dissipate in a open bucket over time (it can also give some people diarrhea so avoid tap water during the hot months). The only way to remove chloramine is to use a water conditioner. Unfortunately most conditioners have a chemical called sodium thiosulphate, which is toxic to shrimps if overdosed. Fish are immune but not our sensitive little shrimps. So if you must use tap, be very precise with your conditioner. I heard that 1 ml can handle 10 gals but please check your labels as I'm not sure because I don't use any conditioners with my r/o.

I hope this has been helpful for everyone, lets all grow this wonderful hobby here in North America with information, and I will be posting up Chapter 4 Grading, Whitening, Genetics as soon as I can. 
It's the GF's bday this weekend so if I don't prioritize my attention I may not be around for chapter 5. 

Happy Shrimping Everyone.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Tip n Tricks 1.2

Save test kit solutions buy reducing ratios.

ie. API Ph tests require 3 drops. Fill test tube 1/3 of tank water and use 1 drop.

This applies for all test solutions. 

ie. API NO3 tests require 10 drops from each bottle.
Fill test tube 2/5 full of tank water and use 4 drops from each bottle.

"and who said math was only useful for accountants and Asians.."


----------



## coldmantis

you sure about this? I used to do this around 6-8 months ago and I find if you don't use the full amount state you get different results. I use 1/3 of tank water and 1 drop of ph and I get light blueish =7 I used full amount and I get lime greenish 6.6-6.8 I did this extensively when testing the first batch of ada I and II from Aqua Inspirations.


CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Tip n Tricks 1.2
> 
> Save test kit solutions buy reducing ratios.
> 
> ie. API Ph tests require 3 drops. Fill test tube 1/3 of tank water and use 1 drop.
> 
> This applies for all test solutions.
> 
> ie. API NO3 tests require 10 drops from each bottle.
> Fill test tube 2/5 full of tank water and use 4 drops from each bottle.
> 
> "and who said math was only useful for accountants and Asians.."


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Nice, keep posting. This is really helping the new comers to pick things up.
You realize that it's a sticky now right? 3 or 4 months down the road, I may need to ask you to edit the entire thread a condense it down to a few pages ...

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----------



## Kerohime

We should get together and make it into a book. 

There is a huuuge shortage on CRS books in English!


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Zebrapl3co said:


> Nice, keep posting. This is really helping the new comers to pick things up.
> You realize that it's a sticky now right? 3 or 4 months down the road, I may need to ask you to edit the entire thread a condense it down to a few pages ...


Yeah looking forward to it


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Kerohime said:


> We should get together and make it into a book.
> 
> There is a huuuge shortage on CRS books in English!


I wasn't aware any English copies existed.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

coldmantis said:


> you sure about this? I used to do this around 6-8 months ago and I find if you don't use the full amount state you get different results. I use 1/3 of tank water and 1 drop of ph and I get light blueish =7 I used full amount and I get lime greenish 6.6-6.8 I did this extensively when testing the first batch of ada I and II from Aqua Inspirations.


I've done more then a dozen comparisons. 
You have to be very precise with your measurements of tank water. I use a 5ml syringe to find the proper amount then mark my test tubes with a fine gel ink pen.

I suggest everyone test out with ph both long and short cut method to compare.


----------



## coldmantis

you know what I probably didn't shake the ph solution for one but shook it for the other.


----------



## Kerohime

As far as I know there are no English copies... 

Like I said, HUUUUGE shortage.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

coldmantis said:


> you know what I probably didn't shake the ph solution for one but shook it for the other.


Its always important to shake it when your done


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Tips and Tricks 1.3

As many of you may noticed it beginning to get warmer here in Toronto. The heaters are getting shut off and everyday that little plastic indicator on the side of our tanks moves up steadily. From 23 to 24 and last night mine was at 26. So I thought I'd post a little quiz for fun and see which of you would know the answer.

When your crs tank reaches 26 degrees what do you do?

A) Turn on AC

B) Open Window

C) Remove a pitcher of tank water and keep in freezer for 30minm. Once cold add this water (with same tank parameters) back into tank.

D) Add O2 into tank with either air stone or using an hob filter to break surface tension of water.

E) Use a fan to cool the water surface

F) Use pre-made tank water ice cubes

G) feed spinach

*hint* which one is most effective.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

I pick option E.

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----------



## camboy012406

e, feed spinach


----------



## sujeev87

A: turn on AC


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

The most correct answer is

D) Add O2 into tank with either air stone or using an hob filter to break surface tension of water.

Every answer works except for the spinach. When the temp of water goes up it increases the metabolism of every living thing in a crs tank (bacteria, shrimp, snail, planaria (those bastards), copodes ect.) which increases oxygen intake of these organisms. Thus o2 levels will be low in warmer waters which is essentially what kills them, a lack of oxygen. You can solve this issue by breaking the surface tension of water (you'll hear the water splash) with a hob filter 2 inches above the water line. Air stones works too but are far less effective.

The best temp to keep CRS is at 24.5 degrees but only with sufficient o2 levels. 
CRS can breed between 23-26 degrees, but 24.5 is a good balance between faster hatching rate and crs stress rate. Refer to chart below.

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24593


----------



## bettaforu

Hey Jay, just wanted to say THANKS for starting this thread. I have learned sooo many things just from reading this. For one I did not know that by increasing the air stone or hob filtration that it would cool the water down.

I have been opening my windows and keeping the lights off for half the day (as we all know lights over tanks also heat water up) especially the older type original hood aquarium ones. Not sure about fancy flourescent ones as I don't have any of those 

I am going to turn up my bubblers a bit now see how that goes.

On the subject of the Netlea soil, I did rinse mine ( I always rinse soil first just a habit) before putting it in the tank. I noticed the PH was down the very next day to 6.8 in that tank (7 gallon) but I still had a small amount of ammonia showing on the test water. I swirled it around a bit and then pulled out 10% the next day and topped up with tap water (mine is 7.6)

I waited another 2 days, tested again, PH was down to 6.4 and the ammonia was almost at 0 I did a test run with some cherry shrimps to see if they would be able to handle things, and they were fine, so then put in a few low grade CRS....everyone is doing just fine in there now.

Going to take them all out and put in my adult high grade CRS to let them breed in there now as it looks like this soil will keep the PH steady below 6.8
unlike the Fluval Stratum that tends to swing a bit back and forth.

The Fluval is good for other types of shrimps so not dishing it, I keep my Tigers and Neos in it and they seem to like it just fine...breeding good!

CRS are more finicky shrimps so they need just perfect conditions to multiply and the Netlea soil seems to be a good choice, or ADA whatever your preference.

Keep up the good work, I am enjoying reading this thread. Learning new stuff every day.


----------



## Greg_o

bettaforu said:


> Hey Jay, just wanted to say THANKS for starting this thread. I have learned sooo many things just from reading this. For one I did not know that by increasing the air stone or hob filtration that it would cool the water down.


Ana you're correct that Jay does deserve some big thanks for this epic thread.

However I think you've misinterpreted his suggestion to add O. You are not changing the temperature, rather negating the affects of the warmth.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Thanks Guys,

It's encouraging to get such positive feedback from everyone who has taken an interest to this thread. I think my initial goal remains the same throughout which is to make CRS keeping easy and to grow this fledgling hobby here in North America which as everyone here already know, has exploded over in Asia. Just in Taiwan alone, there are over 10,000 professional breeders.

I've started to use this recently and people use it in ponds and fish farms. The Barley straw absorbs nitrates.


----------



## bettaforu

what do you do with this...is it a food?


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

bettaforu said:


> what do you do with this...is it a food?


Um its a combination of barley straw, peat, and humic acid.

The shrimp eats it but most of it (straw) floats all over the tank and you just leave it in your water to clean.


----------



## Kerohime

That stuff is amazing, the shrimp love it!

But you can also get barley straw (Laguna) that costs 15 bucks for a 1.13kg bag. 
But its larger pieces of barley straw and I'm not sure if the Borneowild one has more nutrients in it, it sure causes less of a mess... I put the barley straw in a tea bag and keep it suspended in the water.

And about the bubbler, when water temperature increase less oxygen is dissolved in the water, therefore with the air bubbler you are increasing the dissolved oxygen in the water.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Kerohime said:


> ...But you can also get barley straw (Laguna) that costs 15 bucks for a 1.13kg bag...


Hi Kerohime, where did you get the barley straw? I'd like to buy them, but for my strawberries. They help keep the fruit from touching the grown.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Kerohime

I believe big al's carries them, or any pond specialty store.


----------



## Alexpatrascu

Yeah Jay, hats off to you buddy.

Your thread is the reason I decided to go with CRS !!!

Congratz.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

My ego has been thoroughly shiatsu'ed


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Is anyone feeding blood worms?


----------



## ThaChingster

Great guide !


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Chapter 5: Sexing

Hey everybody, it's Jay here with another tutorial on crystal red shrimps. This one will be focused on differentiating between males and females a problem I know many members, beginners and even intermediates like myself have trouble with sometime.

Before we start, I've had some requests to organize this thread so the information is more easily accessible. Does anyone have any suggestions for this? maybe start another thread with all the tutorial posts in chronological order (like a blog) or just copy and paste everything here to the 1st page? that might be weird as all the comments then after will be out of context, I dunno, you guys please let me know if you have a good idea as how to sort all of this.

Okay so here we go. The following are photos of random crs which you'll have to guess if it's either male or female. The answers will be under each photo hidden with white text so just highlight to reveal the answers. Lets start with an easy example.










This one is obviously a male, just see the slim belly area, like a nike sign. They are also claimed to have longer whiskers (4 whiskers) then the female but this is hard to see sometimes.










Notice the protruding belly of this female. It's more difficult to tell with younger females as the belly haven't fully developed but it's a breeze after their first batch of babies. If the white isn't very thick you can also see a saddle (dark round area) right behind the head.


















female









female









male









male









all female except for S,S+ V, and A









female









female









male









male??


----------



## bettaforu

LOL got em all right except for the one above the grading guide...that one I had as a female! The last one, well the adam's apple is a dead give away


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

bettaforu said:


> LOL got em all right except for the one above the grading guide...that one I had as a female! The last one, well the adam's apple is a dead give away


It's hard to tell from the photo but it's a male. The blogger gave that male special mention as it was the best one in his colony.


----------



## Alexpatrascu

bettaforu said:


> LOL got em all right except for the one above the grading guide...that one I had as a female!


Me too !!!


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Update:
My tank temp went up to 28 degrees today so i removed some water from the tank to aerate with the hob filter.


----------



## Alexpatrascu

Why do you keep those guys in that mesh box !?!?


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Alexpatrascu said:


> Why do you keep those guys in that mesh box !?!?


Notice the intense white color?

I'm selectively breeding so i only get super white off springs. I'm not too concerned about what grade they are as long as they have an intense, high density, white.

I think this guy knows what he's doing so i will follow the basics of his tank design.











These Beauties are $400 a pop


----------



## Ebi-Ken

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Notice the intense white color?
> 
> I'm selectively breeding so i only get super white off springs. I'm not too concerned about what grade they are as long as they have an intense, high density, white.
> 
> I think this guy knows what he's doing so i will follow the basics of his tank design.


That tank was a temporary tank as he redid his 120P ADA tank with the erios that he borrowed from me. That tank is just a 5 gallon rimless and he use to be my photographer.


----------



## camboy012406

Ebi-Ken said:


> That tank was a temporary tank as he redid his 120P ADA tank with the erios that he borrowed from me. That tank is just a 5 gallon rimless and he use to be my photographer.


I know that guy I think he is thomas? hes my friend on facebook


----------



## Ebi-Ken

camboy012406 said:


> I know that guy I think he is thomas? hes my friend on facebook


yah thomas ng drives STi his username is dreamer something on here and was a very good friend with Kin (killer007)


----------



## camboy012406

Ebi-Ken said:


> yah thomas ng drives STi his username is dreamer something on here and was a very good friend with Kin (killer007)


yeah I know him


----------



## Alexpatrascu

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Notice the intense white color?
> 
> I'm selectively breeding so i only get super white off springs. I'm not too concerned about what grade they are as long as they have an intense, high density, white.


Well not really....prolly cuz of the mesh !!!

But good for you that you're trying to get the deepest white that you can !!!


----------



## bettaforu

I just found out something on the fluval shrimp substrate discussion that now makes perfect sense to me. I have the netlea soil in one of my tanks, the others have fluval stratum. 

I have noticed some increased levels of PH in some of the tanks, and today when reading the posts I noticed someone mentioned that carbon raises the PH? If that is true, then I think I have now found one of the contributors to my problem.

I had to remove one of my Marina I 25 filters because it was blocked and accidently tore a hole in the filter insert, so went ahead and tore it open to see what exactly was in there, and if I could re-use it, and there's carbon inside.

I have now replaced the filter insert with just floss in it and we will see if that makes any difference to the PH level...maybe the carbon was increasing the PH as someone else mentioned.

Will test it again tomorrow.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

bettaforu said:


> I just found out something on the fluval shrimp substrate discussion that now makes perfect sense to me. I have the netlea soil in one of my tanks, the others have fluval stratum.
> 
> I have noticed some increased levels of PH in some of the tanks, and today when reading the posts I noticed someone mentioned that carbon raises the PH? If that is true, then I think I have now found one of the contributors to my problem.
> 
> I had to remove one of my Marina I 25 filters because it was blocked and accidently tore a hole in the filter insert, so went ahead and tore it open to see what exactly was in there, and if I could re-use it, and there's carbon inside.
> 
> I have now replaced the filter insert with just floss in it and we will see if that makes any difference to the PH level...maybe the carbon was increasing the PH as someone else mentioned.
> 
> Will test it again tomorrow.


interesting. I thought the carbon would only affect the ph if it was still active. How do you feel about the netlea compared to the fluval.

Just so everyone is aware shrimp soils are DESIGNED to lower the parameters once then after it maintains it steadily over a long period of time by slowly leaching acid compounds into the water from the core of each gradual. This does not mean you can perform 3-4 +50% water changes with tap water and still expect the soil to lower the ph back to 6.4-6.6

Update: I just checked my tank for TDS and it was only at 58 ppm!! which means my gh was at 3. I now bumped it up to 78ppm and will increase it lowly until I reach the low 90's which shoul be around 5.5 gH. This is why IMHO gH test kits are very difficult to use.

FYI: 50ppm around 3 gh/ 100ppm around 6 gh / 150 around 9gh.


----------



## bettaforu

OK on the one tank that I set up and let it sit for 3 days....everything checked out fine, even tried a few cherries in there to see if anything would be a problem (remaining ammonia etc) NADA...they were happy as could be, so popped in a few CRS...same thing quite happily exploring the tank and looking for food. Over the next few days they showed no signs of there being any problems and to date nothing untoward in that tank. I even put my delicate Black Crown Mosura babies in there, and they are just having a great time.

However, on the second tank, I did the same things as before, set up is the same, filtration the same. Put in a few cherries, nothing seemed out of place all parameters checked out. So transferred a few of my OEBTs to this tank because I was clearing out their tank for some TLC that needed to be done.

Almost immediately I see doa's each morning, at first I thought it was my older tigers (lifespan is up, and they are passing) but then I noticed the cherries (indestructable shrimps) are dying too.

Took everyone out, shut down the tank and am going to empty it and was and clean everything, then restart with new soil etc.

I am not sure what exactly the problem was with this tank, but something was OFF! Maybe the rocks I put in were leaching something into the water, I don't know....but rather than lose any more shrimps I just shut it all down and will clean and re-start it again and monitor it for 1 week + just in case.

So far the Netlea seems to be working, but not 100% sold on this soil yet.
JMO


----------



## Greg_o

You need to cycle this stuff.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Update: so I think I've found a root cause of crs death.
In the past few days I've bumped my gh from 58 ppm to 86 ppm. That's a gh of 3 to 5 in 2 days

Today I found a crs dead in my tank. nothing else has changed even temp is stable so I must assume it was the gh going up too fast. I often notice a death followed by tempering of the water parameters. This is why I hate keeping them in my 12 gal.

Currently in the process of setting up a 30 gal.


----------



## laurahmm

Hi can I ask a question regarding two things which you may get around to talking about. 


First of all, how do snow whites work? I think you can add them to improve the whites of your CRS but this seems like cheating? Or is it common practice? 

Secondly, I've heard several sources say that mosura gravidas can cause a molt but that doesnt make sense since isnt it suppose to be for berried mothers? Do you know anything about this? 

Thanks!

Laura


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Hi Laura,

I will cover snow whites and breeding out color/patterns int he next chapter.

speaking from the sum of my experience and research I would never cross a crs with a snow white unless it was a very dense and solid white. Generally mixing snow white and crs will give patterns at the cost of degrading the white color/intensity giving you a blotchy dirty white. As for Golden bees I could recommend avoiding them altogether. 

As for Mosura gravidas/ eros 
they trigger molts which will cause a berried female to drop her eggs if she molts.

Heres my question:
Do you prefer a S/S+ grade with solid intense white

or a SSS with blotchy white?


----------



## bettaforu

Sorry but have to dissagree with the Gravidas/Eros post.

I feed Gravidas to my berried females and babies and to date have *not *had any problems with my berried females molting early and losing eggs. I keep a close eye on each female to see how they are progressing in their pregnancys (anxiously awaiting the new babies) 

Eros I dose every 10 days and now have many berried females since the last dose. I have been doing this in my tanks since this product came out and have lots and lots of juvies/baby CRS/CBS.

So for me these products work great. I also feed the gravidas to all of my other types of shrimps and have many babies in each tank. I like both of these products a lot.


----------



## Ebi-Ken

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Hi Laura,
> 
> I will cover snow whites and breeding out color/patterns int he next chapter.
> 
> speaking from the sum of my experience and research I would never cross a crs with a snow white unless it was a very dense and solid white. Generally mixing snow white and crs will give patterns at the cost of degrading the white color/intensity giving you a blotchy dirty white. As for Golden bees I could recommend avoiding them altogether.
> 
> As for Mosura gravidas/ eros
> they trigger molts which will cause a berried female to drop her eggs if she molts.
> 
> Heres my question:
> Do you prefer a S/S+ grade with solid intense white
> 
> or a SSS with blotchy white?


background info: golden bees are a result of snowwhites crossing into crystal REDS which results in some "snowwhite" offsprings looking yellowish or pinkish which gave it a new name as "golden bee" just like when we were all in pre-school. red paint mixed with white paint gives the awesome pink color! 









Golden bee and/or snowwhite crossing CRS is common practice and is basically evident everywhere. Almost all local fish store shrimps and cheaper shrimps are all golden bee crossed when your seeing the SS grades +. Even MFF JPRL was once crossed with golden bee to achieve a high grade fast but took time to selectively breed for it to become pure red again with major culling of shrimps and kept for coverage. This is why some MFF JPRL's tend to have red eyes, a trait from golden bees and that some lower quality MFF JPRL have yellowing in the white.

In Japan, there are snowwhites which are sold for even higher price than some high quality SSS for the reason that they are extremely solid and don't degrade quality. Also, crossing a snowwhite that isn't solid with a CRS S/S+ grade does not result in crappy CRS. In F1 the majority of the time, the offsprings actually express a greater amount of white and a thicker and greater coverage of white because the snowwhite genes allows for this type of phenotype expression.

That being said, golden bees don't necessarily degrade quality so long as you don't continuously breed them into your stock. You can breed it in 1 generation to get the appropriate alleles (or their genetics of lesser red or black expression meaning higher grades) into their lines. Then selectively breed for grade and coverage and cull out the crappy looking ones.

EXTRA SUPPORT INFO: http://www.silaneshrimp.com/index.php?start=5
read Tuesday, 18 November 2008 09:56


----------



## Beijing08

Ebi-Ken said:


>


*Dear Frank,

what are you smoking today?

best regards,*

..............


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Wonder input frank.

Another HD video I've made of my crs with ADA bactor balls which are working wonders.


----------



## camboy012406

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Wonder input frank.
> 
> Another HD video I've made of my crs with ADA bactor balls which are working wonders.


I think they like the ada bactor balls btw whats this for?


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Ebi-Ken said:


> background info: golden bees are a result of snowwhites crossing into crystal REDS which results in some "snowwhite" offsprings looking yellowish or pinkish which gave it a new name as "golden bee" just like when we were all in pre-school. red paint mixed with white paint gives the awesome pink color! ...


I agree with Frank. From my own personal research. The orginal CRS maxed out at SS. They never went further. It was from crossing with the snow white that gave rise to the SS+ and on. To my understanding, all "new bee shrimps" at one time or another crossed with the snowwhite. But ofcourse none of them (Japanese breeders) stated this fact because it's a trade secret. But as Frank said, you can see signs that they've been crossed over.
I do have a question though, where the heck did the the snow white shrimp come from!? I am under the impression that it was the golden that got refine to a snowwhite and then crossed with the orginal CRS.
Basically, the transparent part are replaced with the thin layer of white. However, it's not the thick bright white that we all wish for. You'll still need to selectively breed them for quite a few generations (well maybe alot if you are unlucky).
Trying to unravel the genetic blocks sometime really sucks. You can get one entire generation of good looking CRS and the next 2 gen would really suck. So if you are serious about breeding good quality shrimps. Always try to keep a parallel tank going.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Zebrapl3co said:


> I agree with Frank. From my own personal research. The orginal CRS maxed out at SS. They never went further. It was from crossing with the snow white that gave rise to the SS+ and on. To my understanding, all "new bee shrimps" at one time or another crossed with the snowwhite. But ofcourse none of them (Japanese breeders) stated this fact because it's a trade secret. But as Frank said, you can see signs that they've been crossed over.
> I do have a question though, where the heck did the the snow white shrimp come from!? I am under the impression that it was the golden that got refine to a snowwhite and then crossed with the orginal CRS.
> Basically, the transparent part are replaced with the thin layer of white. However, it's not the thick bright white that we all wish for. You'll still need to selectively breed them for quite a few generations (well maybe alot if you are unlucky).
> Trying to unravel the genetic blocks sometime really sucks. You can get one entire generation of good looking CRS and the next 2 gen would really suck. So if you are serious about breeding good quality shrimps. Always try to keep a parallel tank going.


Breeds in asia have said the best way to selectively breed is by breeding a pair of really white crs. Then breed the offsprings with the mother and avoid golden.


----------



## ThaChingster

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Then breed the offsprings with the mother and avoid golden.


lol incest , that's all I could think of when i read that


----------



## Ebi-Ken

Zebrapl3co said:


> I agree with Frank. From my own personal research. The orginal CRS maxed out at SS. They never went further. It was from crossing with the snow white that gave rise to the SS+ and on. To my understanding, all "new bee shrimps" at one time or another crossed with the snowwhite. But ofcourse none of them (Japanese breeders) stated this fact because it's a trade secret. But as Frank said, you can see signs that they've been crossed over.
> I do have a question though, where the heck did the the snow white shrimp come from!? I am under the impression that it was the golden that got refine to a snowwhite and then crossed with the orginal CRS.
> Basically, the transparent part are replaced with the thin layer of white. However, it's not the thick bright white that we all wish for. You'll still need to selectively breed them for quite a few generations (well maybe alot if you are unlucky).
> Trying to unravel the genetic blocks sometime really sucks. You can get one entire generation of good looking CRS and the next 2 gen would really suck. So if you are serious about breeding good quality shrimps. Always try to keep a parallel tank going.


From decisions with other breeders, snowwhite seems to have arrisen at random from wild crystal shrimps first and once crossed over with the red had given rise to golden bees "milky genetics basically" where a bit of the red mixed in with the white given it that orangey pinkish color and somewhat yellowey. So basically goldenbees are snowwhites but have red genes mixed in.

From what Jay has to say, crossing offspring back to mother is selectively breeding for a desired trait with a higher offspring level of a higher trait. However, white expression in pure reds can only go so much. An extremely elementary example. the parents of 2 crystal reds. One is 30% white and the rest red, the other is 50% white and 50% red. You cross these together, you get basically offspring roughly in the middle of 40%. Theoretically speaking of course. If you cross that 40% white with other 40% white offspring you get 40% offsprings. However if you cross that 40% offspring back to the parent of 50% white you get 45% white. That's the difference you can achieve through crossing back to parent if your looking for white coverage trait. And just by looking at that. You see there eventually will be a limitaion of white in which future offsprings can get. Of course it isn't black and white for genetics. Using the punnet square you can easily see it in more depth. But of course this isn't about getting super technical. Its more of a proof to Laura's question to whether it is true that it is widely done and achievable in getting high grades.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Ebi-Ken said:


> From decisions with other breeders, snowwhite seems to have arrisen at random from wild crystal shrimps first and once crossed over with the red had given rise to golden bees "milky genetics basically" where a bit of the red mixed in with the white given it that orangey pinkish color and somewhat yellowey. So basically goldenbees are snowwhites but have red genes mixed in.
> 
> From what Jay has to say, crossing offspring back to mother is selectively breeding for a desired trait with a higher offspring level of a higher trait. However, white expression in pure reds can only go so much. An extremely elementary example. the parents of 2 crystal reds. One is 30% white and the rest red, the other is 50% white and 50% red. You cross these together, you get basically offspring roughly in the middle of 40%. Theoretically speaking of course. If you cross that 40% white with other 40% white offspring you get 40% offsprings. However if you cross that 40% offspring back to the parent of 50% white you get 45% white. That's the difference you can achieve through crossing back to parent if your looking for white coverage trait. And just by looking at that. You see there eventually will be a limitaion of white in which future offsprings can get. Of course it isn't black and white for genetics. Using the punnet square you can easily see it in more depth. But of course this isn't about getting super technical. Its more of a proof to Laura's question to whether it is true that it is widely done and achievable in getting high grades.


You gotta teach them out crossing and crs x cbs 

Hey chingster, inbreeding amongst inverts is very common. Your looking at 11-15 generations before getting rpoblems.


----------



## Ebi-Ken

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> You gotta teach them out crossing and crs x cbs .


sorry not following


----------



## Beijing08

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Your looking at 11-15 generations before getting rpoblems.


hmm, interesting point. where did you get the data from? I'm looking for answers too on this matter.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Beijing08 said:


> hmm, interesting point. where did you get the data from? I'm looking for answers too on this matter.


There was a post from a member on shrimpnow.com about his personal experience.


----------



## Beijing08

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> There was a post from a member on shrimpnow.com about his personal experience.


that's cool man. Wish I had read up on that. How many generations do you have now?


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Beijing08 said:


> that's cool man. Wish I had read up on that. How many generations do you have now?


Leon I'll send you the link.

I currently have 4 beautifully white crs in a breeding net with good water flow. 3 females 1 male. 2/3 of the females are berried. I will bring them back to the net once they are of age and white enough to breed with mommy. Don't worry inbreeding is natural with inverts.


----------



## Beijing08

I know that inbreeding is common practice, we've all seen the youtube video haha. Was just curious about the correlation between generation and colours.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Breeds in asia have said the best way to selectively breed is by breeding a pair of really white crs. Then breed the offsprings with the mother and avoid golden.


Yes, I have read that many times, but have yet resisted to take this step. Backcrossing is very common, not just for invert but for just about any kind of ornametal fish. ie., fancy betta, rachu, fancy guppies, discuss etc...



Ebi-Ken said:


> From decisions with other breeders, snowwhite seems to have arrisen at random from wild crystal shrimps first and once crossed over with the red had given rise to golden bees "milky genetics basically" where a bit of the red mixed in with the white given it that orangey pinkish color and somewhat yellowey. So basically goldenbees are snowwhites but have red genes mixed in.


Thanks, that's very interesting. I wonder what they mean by "wild". I've only know of three "general" location of the bee shrimp's wild habitate. 1) Hong Kong 2) Southen China (GuangXi/Guangdong) and 3) Northern Vietnam.
Bee shrimps are not native to Japan/Korean/Taiwan.



Ebi-Ken said:


> From what Jay has to say, crossing offspring back to mother is selectively breeding for a desired trait with a higher offspring level of a higher trait. However, white expression in pure reds can only go so much. ...


I agree, and it only works on percentage, which, is all that much harder if you don't have a high percentage survival rate. But I am very reluctant to take the backcrossing step (although I wouldn't be surprise if it did as I never took steps to prevent it.) But one of the problem is that it may make just as much damage as you succeed. Take for example the transparent squigle on the cheek. I really hate that, but it's as imprinted as the red colour on the shell. In order to get rid of it, you need to cross it back to a different un-tampered strain. Which pretty much reset your entire stock and create more problems. Many undersirable traits doesn't show up until the are magnified in the next generation. By that time it's may be too late. A shrimp only lives around 1 year, you only have 2 or 3 chances if you're lucky.


CrystalMethShrimp said:


> There was a post from a member on shrimpnow.com about his personal experience.


I don't exactly agree with the 11F - 15F statement. If you're working with wild stock, maybe, but when you get a CRS, you're already at F20+.

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----------



## Ebi-Ken

Zebrapl3co said:


> Thanks, that's very interesting. I wonder what they mean by "wild". I've only know of three "general" location of the bee shrimp's wild habitate. 1) Hong Kong 2) Southen China (GuangXi/Guangdong) and 3) Northern Vietnam.
> Bee shrimps are not native to Japan/Korean/Taiwan.


They maybe referring to wild as a phenotype which basically means low grade CBS which is what the "wild" form is. Like cherries, the blackish brownish colored ones are wild types.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Hey guys,
been a while since I posted but with great reason. Well that opinion is more open to interpretation, but I got married last month. It's great being married to those of you considering the option but I do have to warn that your bank account suddenly drops by 50% overnight and even more in some cases. Get a security deposit box

I'll be in S. Korea for the rest of the month and I'm reading about people complaining how hot Toronto is and let me tell you guys it is nothing compared to over here. It is so hot and humid that my ass crack is covered with morning dew 10 minutes after I shower. Everyday it's around 30 degrees and people here don't use A/C nearly as much as us in toronto. They're used to the heat. Basically if you don't have a chiller here in S.Korea and you don't run the a/c your crs are screwed.

I'm planning on doing some HD video interviews with local crs keeps/breeders. With the help of my translator wife of course. I think it'll be fun to post them up and share some tips with you guys. Have an inside look at CRS breeding from ground zero sorta speak. I have a few places in mind but I would love some suggestions from you guys if you knew some crs shops here in Seoul Korea. I wonder if they have a Lowkeys here.
Anyways let me know guys and in the meantime I'll be working on getting my international drivers permit sent over here so I can legally operate a vehicle.


----------



## bettaforu

Congratulations Jay and Wife  Yes I can imagine what HOT weather really means in Korea! Guess I won't be going there, I cannot stand humidity makes me sick. Im off to Barbados in the Fall  now that weather I can stand.

Keep up the good work everyone here is waiting to see what you find.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

kk so now that i'm finally finished with all the ceramonies I will be visiting some shrimp stores this week starting tomorrow hopefully.

I will try for a video interview with the breeder and I have some questions in mind concerning breeding.


I was wondering if you guys had any questions I could ask?

Something specific like what are the main cause of lossing juvies.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> kk so now that i'm finally finished with all the ceramonies I will be visiting some shrimp stores this week starting tomorrow hopefully.
> 
> I will try for a video interview with the breeder and I have some questions in mind concerning breeding.
> 
> I was wondering if you guys had any questions I could ask?
> 
> Something specific like what are the main cause of lossing juvies.


Hey, congrats. Haven't read this thread for a while. Wow, so now you're married, nice and enjoy the honeymoon. Deposit box won't work, secret bank accounts with statements forward to your mom's house is better 
Anyway, back to shrimps.
- How do they selectively breed the next generation? Like for example, start by selecting the 10 best graded burried female shrimps? or pick just one best graded burried female shrimps to start the next generation?
- What are the percentage of high grade shrimps from each batch? 5%, 10% or 20%
- What are the expected survival rate from shrimplettes to adult? 20%, 30% or 50%
- Do they breed one batch of shrimps and then separate according to grade?
- Was there golden mix in their stock? or where their stock pure red?
- Have they every crossed with a black crystal to get better white?
- Does strong lighting give better white in the shrimplettes? if so what kind of light?
- What kind of food did they feed the shrimps?
- What food did they use to increase the red?
- What food did they use to increase the white?
- How can they maintain good red coloring and solid white at the same time? 
- what is more desirable in Korea, red legs or white legs? (probably didn't matter, but just curious)
- How can you spot a golden (just want to know if they have another method of spotting)
Addition:
- How big a batch do they work with? 100 or 1000?

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----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Haha I knew I could depend on my mom for one last thing and forgoing complete independence. Thanks for the tip Zebra.

I went to 2 stores thus far

The first store didn't have much inventory and even his Benibachi JPRL $250 were lacking in white intensity.
The latter store's owner was very nice in answering many questions and had amazing JPRL's and even the $60 SS mixed ones had thick white color and white legs!. http://feelaqua.co.kr/shop/goods/goods_popup_large.php?goodsno=186787399
I think I speak for everyone here when I say there's nothing sexier then 4 pairs of skinny opaque white legs. His S/S+ ($30) even has thick whites which really shows the quality of Japanese breed CRS (these are off spings of Japanese breed crs) In fact these are a Korea brand which have not been crossed with golden for a few generations now. I took my time examining the tanks and I did not find any with red eyes/head patterns. In fact a few S/S+ even had red/white legs.

I've yet to bring up the first few questions about survival rate but I will ask next time. The following are his replies to my "interview" translated from korean =D

-I never do water changes, just top up.
-I feed everyday in small quantities to keep the water clean and I feed mostly spinach with some crs food.
-They prefer a low temp of 24-25 this is why I have the A/C on 24/7 during summer month.
-For breeding, the male will transfer most of the genes.
-It is not a good idea to cross the off spring with the parent for selective breeding. This form of inbreeding will lead to health issues.
-The best size to ship/transfer crs is above 1cm.
-When setting up a shrimp tank, layer it with soil powder on bottom then substrate then powder again. This can prolong the life of substrate by 50%.
This will also make the substrate more dense making it difficult for H2S to escape if the tank was agitated.
-They can survive off of bio film but the reason why we feed them is because they sometimes lack specific vitamins and nutrients that are not found naturally in fresh water tanks. Veggie based foods help enhance colors (beta carotene helps with red while high mineral levels and bright lights help white intensity) meat based foods increase growth rate and mating rates but it's dangerous to health if over fed.
-Don't use too many products in your tank unless you fully understand how it works. The most important equipment is a good filter.

So far i've decided to pick up the Korean brand S/S+ and SS. The jprl are very stunning but two factors deter me. 1st the price is $150-$300 each. 2nd when I did a close comparison, the Korean crs appear very close, nearly +80% identical. I will show you guys pics for you to decide. It just seems like a very good deal to me. They might turn yellowish or pinkish when they get old but for the 500% price difference these will still be some of the most beautiful crs I've seen.
I'm also excited to say they have shrimp soil for around $60 9L bag. Before I left the owner gave me 2 free crs key chain toys
removed
and a bottle of food valued at over $60 and I didn't even buy a single thing.

And will be visiting this one tomorrow.
http://hanaaqua.com/front/php/category.php?cate_no=192

I will upload photos as soon as I can but essentially I'm beginning to see a few patterns with these stores.

-The prices are all stable with every store. They don't under cut each other.
-They all use t5h0 lights with 1 blue actinic bulb to show the white better.
-The sponge filter outlet/spray bars are all at water level, not under water, thus they produce surface agitation and add o2.
-They don't change their water.
-Every tank has these balls inside even the benibachi JRPL.

btw Does anyone know how good Benibachi JPRL are compared to 999,MFF,HAKATA,EBITEN, NISIKI,??


----------



## Alexpatrascu

Wow, congrats on getting married Jay.

Back to the CRS....I can't wait to see your photos/videos.

A few good tips I see there in that list.

Keep us posted.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> ...-Every tank has these balls inside even the benibachi JRPL...


Do you mean algae balls? or aka Marimo ball?

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----------



## dchow

Zebrapl3co said:


> Do you mean algae balls? or aka Marimo ball?


From my understanding they are Crimson Balls. They've garnered some fairly high reviews with people reporting that mass die offs have halted after using them.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

nope not crimson balls.

they were these

http://hanaaqua.com/front/php/product.php?product_no=37&main_cate_no=192&display_group=1


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## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> nope not crimson balls.
> 
> they were these
> 
> http://hanaaqua.com/front/php/product.php?product_no=37&main_cate_no=192&display_group=1


Ah, I see. They are large LECA pellets (Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate). It might be natural occuring in some places but most are man made. I actually tried making a batch of these stuff myself, but was not sucessful because I don't have the equipment and the I used the wrong type of clay.
See something similar here:
http://www.claytek.co.uk/leca_home.htm

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----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

i wonder how they improve water quality, by removing toxins?


----------



## splur

How do you guys clean the gravel/substrate? I've had my RCS for maybe 6 months now and never did it... but I feel like I should. I just think I'd kill or suck up a bunch if I ever tried.


----------



## dchow

i made a diy siphon with a hard airline and then attached to a silicone airline. I drain it into a water jug and let it overflow into a sink... I usually only comb over the gravel if that >.>


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## Zebrapl3co

splur said:


> How do you guys clean the gravel/substrate? I've had my RCS for maybe 6 months now and never did it... but I feel like I should. I just think I'd kill or suck up a bunch if I ever tried.


If feels like your tank is a ticking time bomb doesn't it?
I've always had that feeling for my tanks too. But if you have lots of plants, you can go for 1 year without gravel vac. Just make sure you clean your spong filter every week.
But if you must, you can just gravel vac as per normal into a bucket. Then pour out most of the water and let the rest sit for 5 minutes. All the dirt will settle and you'll see the shrimpletts running around. I use a turkey baster to suck them up into another bowl. Ofcourse when you do that all the dirt will kick up and you'll have to wait until it settles again. I usually spend 1 hour doing that, it breaks my back too so take care not to bend over to do this.

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----------



## Ebi-Ken

since you never answered me nor Sungmin (a friend of mine/ future partner with feelaqua/ and my translator to feelaqua) and last night I was given a suggestion by someone who I look up to, to bring this back up in to play and request a clarification. Want to explain this quote from you?



CrystalMethShrimp said:


> His S/S+ ($30) even has thick whites which really shows the quality of Japanese breed CRS (these are off spings of Japanese breed crs) In fact these are a Korea brand which have not been crossed with golden for a few generations now.


Thats like saying a Chinese couple goes to Vietnam and has a kid and is now not Chinese but in fact, Vietnamese.

1) feelaqua is the Korean branch of Benebachi, if Benebachi were to mistaken what your referring to is what feelaqua was insinuating to its customers that these were Korean lines because they were born in Korea. Who would take the blame if feelaqua were to lose its rights over benebachi?

2) if your thinking of being the next Chris Luptak but in North America, watch your wording. <- got this from you stating that you were going to do interviews and such.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

oh brother


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## Ebi-Ken

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> His S/S+ ($30) even has thick whites which really shows the quality of Japanese breed CRS (these are off spings of Japanese breed crs) In fact these are a Korea brand which have not been crossed with golden for a few generations now.


 I think that's a fair question to ask for clarification isn't it?

first your saying they are Japanese breed ( so Japanese breed can be anything like Benebachi, Crimson, MFF and so on) and suddenly they became a Korean brand meaning it belongs to Korea?? I'm confused by what your trying to say. Could you please elaborate.

Or do you mean that they are a Japanese breed of shrimps which are filial 1 (F1) that were born in Korea and deamed as K1 representing first generation born in Korea but still classified as the same Japanese line? but then what do you mean by "have not been crossed with golden for a few generations" ? does it mean they were crossed with golden bee before?

Please clarify.

I bring this up because you've had the chance to meet "experts/ store owners" in person and it could redefine the whole aspect of what Japanese breed really means and by what means it is used to reach a specific line of Japanese breed because of the last statement in regards to golden bee. Don't take this the wrong way, just want to be clear because what's stated is too vague. Trying to learn something new everyday or at least teach others something new.


----------



## splur

So I have access to deionized (DI) water. That's purity above RO or distilled. Are there any dangers using deionized water for CRS? Or even fish in general?


----------



## dchow

Erm isn't distilled more pure than di?

Anyways, you will need to remineralize it.


----------



## splur

I don't even know which is more pure anymore.

That sucks that I need to remineralize it though... I'll have to look it up.


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## dchow

Mosura mineral plus


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

If my memory serves me correct, I remember hearing a another member using deionized water for his mosura crowns. 

Essentially deionized water is demineralized water. Minerals such as sodium, calcium, iron, copper, chloride, and bromide are removed through static charge. Bacteria and virus will remain. 

Distilled is the best choice, R/O is the most practical, and deionized is the most expensive in terms of equipment maintenance.

In all 3 cases you need to add minerals back into the tank.


----------



## Ebi-Ken

Ebi-Ken said:


> I think that's a fair question to ask for clarification isn't it?
> 
> first your saying they are Japanese breed ( so Japanese breed can be anything like Benebachi, Crimson, MFF and so on) and suddenly they became a Korean brand meaning it belongs to Korea?? I'm confused by what your trying to say. Could you please elaborate.
> 
> Or do you mean that they are a Japanese breed of shrimps which are filial 1 (F1) that were born in Korea and deamed as K1 representing first generation born in Korea but still classified as the same Japanese line? but then what do you mean by "have not been crossed with golden for a few generations" ? does it mean they were crossed with golden bee before?
> 
> Please clarify.
> 
> I bring this up because you've had the chance to meet "experts/ store owners" in person and it could redefine the whole aspect of what Japanese breed really means and by what means it is used to reach a specific line of Japanese breed because of the last statement in regards to golden bee. Don't take this the wrong way, just want to be clear because what's stated is too vague. Trying to learn something new everyday or at least teach others something new.


could you please also answer this ^ greatly appreciated.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Originally Posted by CrystalMethShrimp View Post
"His S/S+ ($30) even has thick whites which really shows the quality of Japanese breed CRS (these are off spings of Japanese breed crs) In fact these are a Korea brand which have not been crossed with golden for a few generations now."

As stated these are offsprings of JPRL meaning that they originate from Japan, but a lower quality hence why they are much less expensive as oppose to the $150 S grade benibachi.  (sigh one day..)

What had me confused whether or not these were PRL or mixed, with the golden/snow gene bred out like MFF and 999 is that the adult crs I bought had a yellowish tint to their whites. Now recalling countless threads and blogs I have read in the past, crs with a pure linage does not have red eyes/yellow/pink tints (as they age). I found this artical very useful. http://shrimpsider.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/discussing-the-purity-of-line-breeding/

In the end you get what you pay for and for the price, these are beautiful CRS with intense whites and a tiny hint of yellow. I love them!!

In terms of the Korean branding, perhaps it was a mistake in translation. Do not worry Frank, in the future I will hire a translator instead of using my wife 

P.S In the process of making a crs photography tutorial...


----------



## Ebi-Ken

Thanks for the explanation. 

now this leads to my other reason I pointed this out: 

"As stated these are offsprings of JPRL meaning that they originate from Japan, but a lower quality hence why they are much less expensive as oppose to the $150 S grade benibachi. (sigh one day..)"

your right about the cost and the quality. One of the reasons i'm not sure if you had been told but even though the quality is sub par below top tier in terms of quality. Theres 2 prices even for the same shrimp. In Korea, there are people that sell an F1 offspring of a JPRL line lets say for an example 100 dollars and for the same shrimp another person can sell for 25. Quality, everything exactly the same but there is 1 thing that depicts it at the point of sale which determines the value. the higher costing one the seller states its japanese bred. Even though the quality sucks people would still pay it siimply because its japanese bred. While the other person that sells it cheaper says its F1 of Japanese line. This is one of the reasons Korean stores still continue to bring in stock from Japan as Koreans are still willing to pay the high prices and also why there is such a drastic difference in price even if the quality is there after F1.




"What had me confused whether or not these were PRL or mixed, with the golden/snow gene bred out like MFF and 999 is that the adult crs I bought had a yellowish tint to their whites. Now recalling countless threads and blogs I have read in the past, crs with a pure linage does not have red eyes/yellow/pink tints (as they age). I found this artical very useful. http://shrimpsider.wordpress.com/201...line-breeding/"

In terms of the coloring of pure red lines. Althought this is true that MFF is golden bee crossed and re selectively bred for purity. An MFF can still sell for the price of a benebachi. It just depends on quality and coloration. People don't really pay attention so much on lineage now as opposed to quality. Because in any lineage there will still be culls and people do recognize that which is why the highest dollar per shrimp paid is still in auctions where the highest level of quality in a specimen is usually sold.



"In terms of the Korean branding, perhaps it was a mistake in translation. Do not worry Frank, in the future I will hire a translator instead of using my wife "
Well thats not what I meant, if you read back our PM's I wasn't saying it was translation. Its being careful in how you word things. Your wife willing to translate and even spend the time with you in a shrimp aquarium store. No wonder you married her =P Its just seeing how to word things and structuring it so that it doesn't get you in trouble.


again, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## splur

dchow said:


> Erm isn't distilled more pure than di?
> 
> Anyways, you will need to remineralize it.


Haha, this actually made me scratch my head for a while because we use DI water for trace analysis. So I was like, why would we use this over distilled? Then I just noticed that this is RO/DI water from a distilled water source. Hahaha... stupid me.


----------



## dchow

splur said:


> Haha, this actually made me scratch my head for a while because we use DI water for trace analysis. So I was like, why would we use this over distilled? Then I just noticed that this is RO/DI water from a distilled water source. Hahaha... stupid me.


Free work water???!


----------



## splur

dchow said:


> Free work water???!


Haha, maybe... shh!


----------



## solarz

I'm currently housing CRS/CBS in a 2 gallon tank. I live in a condo, and even in winter, the coldest it ever got was about 65F. However, there may be some daily temp swings. Do I need a heater for this tank?


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

solarz said:


> I'm currently housing CRS/CBS in a 2 gallon tank. I live in a condo, and even in winter, the coldest it ever got was about 65F. However, there may be some daily temp swings. Do I need a heater for this tank?


ofcourse not. it's 2 gal.


----------



## solarz

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> ofcourse not. it's 2 gal.


Are you saying it's too small for a heater?


----------



## Alexpatrascu

Stop misleading him Jay, c'mon man, WTH is wrong with you ?!?

Listen *solarz*, I suggest you buy one of those 300W inline heaters for your 2 gal aquarium....if you don't have a canister filter(yet) on your tank, I suggest you go with the Eheim Profesional 2229....it's good for up to 160 gal so you don't have to worry too much about the filtration........jk

Now on a more serious note....adding ANY kind of heater(be it a 25W or even an inline 300W ) in a small tank like a 2 gal, will only make things worse....better let it "go with the flow" !!!


----------



## solarz

Alexpatrascu said:


> Now on a more serious note....adding ANY kind of heater(be it a 25W or even an inline 300W ) in a small tank like a 2 gal, will only make things worse....better let it "go with the flow" !!!


There are 10W heaters designed for tanks up to 2.6 gallons, though the one I saw is preset, so there's no way to adjust it to ~70F.

It's not so much the temperature I'm worried about, as the daily temperature swings.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Move it away from the window to a more insulated area of the house.
If it was a 10+ gal I might suggest a heater but even then you don't really need one.

What are you keeping in your 2 gal?


----------



## splur

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Move it away from the window to a more insulated area of the house.
> If it was a 10+ gal I might suggest a heater but even then you don't really need one.
> 
> What are you keeping in your 2 gal?


I was stupid enough to put my tank near a window, more desperate because it was the only place in my condo where it would fit. Anyways, if there's a heater in the window side of the tank, would I get away with it being near a window?

Mind you it's a 17.5 gallon tank.


----------



## solarz

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Move it away from the window to a more insulated area of the house.
> If it was a 10+ gal I might suggest a heater but even then you don't really need one.
> 
> What are you keeping in your 2 gal?


CRS/CBS.

I don't know about you guys, but we usually turn down central heating during the day to conserve energy (when there's no one home). I'm just worried about temperature swings this might cause.



splur said:


> I was stupid enough to put my tank near a window, more desperate because it was the only place in my condo where it would fit. Anyways, if there's a heater in the window side of the tank, would I get away with it being near a window?
> 
> Mind you it's a 17.5 gallon tank.


If you have a heater in there, it should be fine, as long as your window area is not too cold. I keep my saltwater tank near the window (it's 16 gallons), and it has a heater too. The water temperature stays between 75F to 78F. Mind you, heaters are usually designed only to raise water temp up to 10 degrees over ambient temp, so if the area near your window can get really cold at night, then you might worry.


----------



## splur

solarz said:


> If you have a heater in there, it should be fine, as long as your window area is not too cold. I keep my saltwater tank near the window (it's 16 gallons), and it has a heater too. The water temperature stays between 75F to 78F. Mind you, heaters are usually designed only to raise water temp up to 10 degrees over ambient temp, so if the area near your window can get really cold at night, then you might worry.


I was considering putting some sort of insulation layer between the tank and the window during the winter. Currently there's just an extra sheet of glass I don't think it's doing much.


----------



## solarz

splur said:


> I was considering putting some sort of insulation layer between the tank and the window during the winter. Currently there's just an extra sheet of glass I don't think it's doing much.


You'd be surprised what an extra sheet of glass can do for insulation. 

Check the water temperature when it gets colder. If you don't see it fluctuating, then there's no need to do anything.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

My educated guess, would have thinking that it's necessary to put a small heater in your 17 gal due to our Canadian winters, ESPECIALLY since you turn off the heat when your not home. Isn't heating included in your maintenance price?


----------



## splur

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> My educated guess, would have thinking that it's necessary to put a small heater in your 17 gal due to our Canadian winters, ESPECIALLY since you turn off the heat when your not home. Isn't heating included in your maintenance price?


Oh, I keep the heat on even when I'm not home, but what I learned from last winter is that it can still get cold near the windows despite the fact it is double paned. Like cold enough that I would need a jacket to be comfortable sitting near the window.

The vent actually blows near the tanks, kind of from across the room but in the tank's direction, so I'm hoping that along with the heater in the tank would keep the room more stable in temperature.


----------



## splur

I'm STILL waiting for the actual sponge filter to come in, currently I have an AC sponge insert over the intake and one of my CRS are berried. Are the pores in the AC sponge too large for the baby shrimps?


----------



## ThaChingster

Marineland makes a 10w heater for 3 gallon tanks, 
I have one, and it works great! Just try that, and see how it works out for you, 
then you wouldn't have to worry about buying insulation and whatnot


----------



## vs5295

Hey,

Im new to CRS/CBS , just want to know the temp for CRS? also does anyone have any CRS or CBS up for sale ? looking for a small colony size to start preferably A-S grade. 

Thanks


----------



## vs5295

preferabbly in the Markham area ^

Thanks in advance !!


----------



## Alexpatrascu

@ vs5295, please don't double post, use the EDIT button !!!

About the temp, you should try to keep it 22-24C.

For the shrimps, next time please use the *Freshwater Livestock* section to look for some.

Send a PM to Ricky AKA *novice*, you will NOT be disappointed with the quality/price....I guarantee you won't find a better deal than this !!!

Here is his sale topic:
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27752
.
.
.


----------



## getochkn

Alexpatrascu said:


> @ vs5295, please don't double post, use the EDIT button !!!
> 
> About the temp, you should try to keep it 22-24C.
> 
> For the shrimps, next time please use the *Freshwater Livestock* section to look for some.
> 
> Send a PM to Ricky AKA *novice*, you will NOT be disappointed with the quality/price....I guarantee you won't find a better deal than this !!!
> 
> Here is his sale topic:
> http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27752
> .
> .
> .


I double that for Ricky. Went there today, great guy, awesome shrimp. Puts my current LFS bought crystals to shame. lol. At least now my 3 CBS from Anna have some high grade buddies to hang out with.


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## novice

Alexpatrascu said:


> @ vs5295, please don't double post, use the EDIT button !!!
> 
> About the temp, you should try to keep it 22-24C.
> 
> For the shrimps, next time please use the *Freshwater Livestock* section to look for some.
> 
> Send a PM to Ricky AKA *novice*, you will NOT be disappointed with the quality/price....I guarantee you won't find a better deal than this !!!
> 
> Here is his sale topic:
> http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27752
> .
> .
> .


Thanks Alex & getochkn for the recomendation - im almost out of the A grades

vs5295 - if you want to start off with CRS - i could give you some A grades FOC - do you have your tank set up and cycled - pH < 6.8, use Netlea or ADA - ro/ stored tap water - some mosses - as easy as that.

send me a pm ill hook you up with some -


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## ThaChingster

novice said:


> Thanks Alex for the recomendation - im almost out of the A grades
> 
> vs5295 - if you want to start off with CRS - i could give you some A grades FOC - do you have your tank set up and cycled - pH < 6.8, use Netlea or ADA - ro/ stored tap water - some mosses - as easy as that.
> 
> send me a pm ill hook you up with some -


Lucky, i wish i could get CRS for free


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## novice

ThaChingster said:


> Lucky, i wish i could get CRS for free


That was the "after the 7th Canadian molson" generosity - but if you have xmas moss - you can have the same generosity.

PS: no intention to derail the main thread.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

novice said:


> That was the "after the 7th Canadian molson" generosity - but if you have xmas moss - you can have the same generosity.
> 
> PS: no intention to derail the main thread.


This thread has become stagnent. 
I've been considering for some time now about starting a CRS 201 moderate tuotrial mainly concerning breeding, ugf tutorial (they are very good for crs) baby survivability, acids, and. Nurseries. Everything I covered in this thread was the basics of the basics.


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## splur

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> This thread has become stagnent.
> I've been considering for some time now about starting a CRS 201 moderate tuotrial mainly concerning breeding, ugf tutorial (they are very good for crs) baby survivability, acids, and. Nurseries. Everything I covered in this thread was the basics of the basics.


Please do... I'd be very interested in that as one of mine is berried now (yes very strange from the condition of the shrimps a week ago) and I'm very pessimistic about the baby shrimp survival.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

yeah but I don't think there are that many crs hobbyists in toronto anymore. 
Maybe 5-6.

we're should do a test like post free JPRL crs give away and see how many ppl respond


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## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> yeah but I don't think there are that many crs hobbyists in toronto anymore.
> Maybe 5-6.
> 
> we're should do a test like post free JPRL crs give away and see how many ppl respond


Nah, I think there are much more than you think. 5-6 might have been beginner breeders. But thanks to you, I am pretty sure there are at least around 20 - 30 shrimp keepers.

Yes, do start up another thread. I was hoping to closed this thread and ask you to re-edit it, if you have time. The only problem was that there was quite a few good question with good answers, but are more for moderate than beginners.

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## CrystalMethShrimp

Tell you what, 
I will edit 101 by making a new updated post of the original content.

If you have the time you canpost a reply with all the good comments copied over.

But I was quite surprised when no members were interested in the crs food swap or benibachi group buy and I'm pretty sure if we hosted a crs workshop either at my house or AI we'd probably get 5-6 attendents.


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## solarz

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Tell you what,
> I will edit 101 by making a new updated post of the original content.
> 
> If you have the time you canpost a reply with all the good comments copied over.
> 
> But I was quite surprised when no members were interested in the crs food swap or benibachi group buy and I'm pretty sure if we hosted a crs workshop either at my house or AI we'd probably get 5-6 attendents.


Well, not everyone is interested in buying specialized food for their shrimp, especially when there are accounts of successful breeders who feed nothing but spinach.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

solarz said:


> Well, not everyone is interested in buying specialized food for their shrimp, especially when there are accounts of successful breeders who feed nothing but spinach.


Well that's not exactly accurate. You do need more products to breed crs other then just spinach, especially if you want to improve/avoid molting deaths and increase baby survival rates. Although a lot of products are redundant versions of each other and are usually a waste of $$ there are a few essential products that can drastically improve ones ability to breed and maintain crs. Guess that'll be a good topic to cover in 201.


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## getochkn

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Well that's not exactly accurate. You do need more products to breed crs other then just spinach, especially if you want to improve/avoid molting deaths and increase baby survival rates. Although a lot of products are redundant versions of each other and are usually a waste of $$ there are a few essential products that can drastically improve ones ability to breed and maintain crs. Guess that'll be a good topic to cover in 201.


I agree, I like a variety in my diet, as I'm sure a shrimp does. They are scavengers in the wild and will eat anything they find, anywhere. The odd dead shrimp in a tank, if I don't find it right away, its usually eaten within an hour or so until there is no evidence of it all. I appreciate what you've written so far, so if you want to keep going, that's great. I've learned lots from it and have my crystals breeding and see babies lasting and growing and can usually see a few nicely colored babies waundering around at any given time. I think the key part is not to muck with anything too much. If they're breeding and babies lasting, test your water and keep those same params. They do different for lots of people in different situations and there is no 'end all be all' it has to be this or they will all die.


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## splur

Yeah, I find there's different levels of shrimp hobbyists and definitely a separation between those who want to spend the money on their shrimps and those who don't. I've only recently jumped onto the boat of buying more expensive things for my CRS, and currently it's still window shopping.


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## novice

It think a 201 would be welcome 

It would be nice to know - how many hits shrimp 101 had - wonder if the moderators could tell as to the number of hits the 101 topic had.


In my case - it was trial and error with substrate and water parameters and lots of reading on various shrimp sites 

I think its is the requirements of water parameter that puts everyone off.

wonder if the CRS's could breed in regular tap water - would the interest have spiked - Im guessing it would but then it would go the way the cherry shrimp have gone.


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## solarz

novice said:


> wonder if the CRS's could breed in regular tap water - would the interest have spiked - Im guessing it would but then it would go the way the cherry shrimp have gone.


I don't know if they would breed, but I've seen people on here saying they keep CRS in straight tap water.

I don't think CRS would ever go the way of cherries, as they're much more beautiful than cherries.

It's like the Cardinal Tetra: they've finally figured out how to breed them in captivity, but people still prefer them over neons.


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## getochkn

novice said:


> It think a 201 would be welcome
> 
> It would be nice to know - how many hits shrimp 101 had - wonder if the moderators could tell as to the number of hits the 101 topic had.
> 
> In my case - it was trial and error with substrate and water parameters and lots of reading on various shrimp sites
> 
> I think its is the requirements of water parameter that puts everyone off.
> 
> wonder if the CRS's could breed in regular tap water - would the interest have spiked - Im guessing it would but then it would go the way the cherry shrimp have gone.


It says on the main page, 101 has had 8,253 views.

Some people say they have breed them in normal tap water. It may take a while or more WC's to stimulate the molting or something. Some say too they breed but the eggs carried/babies that survive are low. I'm sure its possible but probably doesn't provide the biggest yields.

I know I was taking plants out and throwing them in a plastic shoe bin filled with tap water and apparently a CBS hitched a ride and was in there. A week later my girlfriend was looking through the bin for some plants for her betta tank and saw him in there hanging out, so he was fine in a bin of half decomposing plants, regular tap water, taken out of a 6.4 netlea soil tank as well, no filter. They can be hardier than people realize. I know the highest high grades seem to be more picky but that could from inbreeding as well, or they're just babied too much. lol.


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## Zebrapl3co

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Tell you what,
> I will edit 101 by making a new updated post of the original content.
> 
> If you have the time you canpost a reply with all the good comments copied over.
> 
> But I was quite surprised when no members were interested in the crs food swap or benibachi group buy and I'm pretty sure if we hosted a crs workshop either at my house or AI we'd probably get 5-6 attendents.


Sure, I'll try to copy all the good comments to compliment your 101 thread.

As for the benibachi group buy, I am guessing it's because you are on your own league. Most of the people are more into breeding and sustaining the same lineage. They haven't reach the point of refining and defining their own lineage. So there is still a bit way to go for most of the people here. Maybe one year later, when they are able to maintain the next 2 generations. They'll start exploring other factors of refinining their shrimps. Things like getting a brighter white with no pockmarks, a more define red colour on the head instead of the pale red. After that, the next level would have been to define your own lineage by selectively breed special attributes from the shrimps. Things like red or white legs. Red or white head. Crowns, flower head and the likes.

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----------



## solarz

Zebrapl3co said:


> Sure, I'll try to copy all the good comments to compliment your 101 thread.
> 
> As for the benibachi group buy, I am guessing it's because you are on your own league. Most of the people are more into breeding and sustaining the same lineage. They haven't reach the point of refining and defining their own lineage. So there is still a bit way to go for most of the people here. Maybe one year later, when they are able to maintain the next 2 generations. They'll start exploring other factors of refinining their shrimps. Things like getting a brighter white with no pockmarks, a more define red colour on the head instead of the pale red. After that, the next level would have been to define your own lineage by selectively breed special attributes from the shrimps. Things like red or white legs. Red or white head. Crowns, flower head and the likes.


Also, I think most people would be happy just to have their CRS multiply. I don't think most of us would want to get into the work of "selective breeding".


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Nah those products are only for color improvement and higher survival rates. Nothing to do with selective breeding.


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## vs5295

I havce the hydor sponge filters ? Can I put the media in the middle strainer inside the sponge ? Also which media exactly would you recccomend to put in thge strainer ? What can I introduce to the tank to speed the cycle process ? I don't have dirty filter floss or old tank water , could I use seachem stability ?


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