# Why cant i set up a god dam tank!



## JoshOohAh

Hey everyone I am more than pissed off right now. I've been working on trying to get this tank up and running for over 6 weeks. 2 Weeks ago I just dumped it and started a new. So I took media from my friend's tank and my filter had media from when my tank was a crap fest. Everything else I washed out and made sure it was clean (Gravel plants etc). Set it all up and as soon as I added media from my friends tank it turned FOGGY!(About a day later) I literally couldn't see anything that wasn't against the glass. My friend told me its a good thing and its a bacteria cycle starting. So after 3 days when my ammonia level was at 0 he advised me to drop fish food in it. 1 pellets the first day 2 pellets the second day and so on. The fogginess never cleared either. After the fourth day I stopped and then it started to really clear up. Wasn't ideally clear but I could see what's in my tank. So I went to test my ammonia 2 days ago it was .5ppm , yesterday .5ppm, today... .5ppm. Did I screw something up? Is there something I can do? I have a water test kit so I can check all my levels if that would help.

Please any advice is great at this point since I've been dying to get my fish for over a month and a half and I haven't been able to because of the stupid water quality.

UPDATE: I got the beta fish last week(Thurs) and the ammonia stayed around .25ppm till about yesterday. Yesterday it was at about .5 and this morning the same thing. The tank doesn't look as foggy as it did last time but it is still pretty cloudy. When the water evaporated it left this resedue on the edges of the tank. I went to go wipe it and it was all this nasty brown color. Are all of these things normal? Should I be doing a water change even though it is still cycling? Should I add more of the bio support like the bottle suggests (I only added it once before the beta fish)?


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## duckyser

if i were you i would get some more media from your friend and just put in one or two small fish to begin with. Because your friends media already has the nitrogen cycling bacteria you can put in 2 or 3 small fish provided the water has been conditioned. After a couple weeks you can then start to slowly add more fish and increase the load on your bacteria.


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## Beijing08

+1

fish are somewhat tolerant of Ammonia, so they won't DIE if you put them in with .5ppm...it's just ideal to have none. Also, maybe getting a better filter for tank may help a bit. Waiting is the hardest part of fish keeping.


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## JoshOohAh

Beijing08 said:


> +1
> 
> fish are somewhat tolerant of Ammonia, so they won't DIE if you put them in with .5ppm...it's just ideal to have none. Also, maybe getting a better filter for tank may help a bit. Waiting is the hardest part of fish keeping.


See I was told .5ppm is painful for them. But I would like to see if it can cycle to 0 too right?


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## JoshOohAh

duckyser said:


> if i were you i would get some more media from your friend and just put in one or two small fish to begin with. Because your friends media already has the nitrogen cycling bacteria you can put in 2 or 3 small fish provided the water has been conditioned. After a couple weeks you can then start to slowly add more fish and increase the load on your bacteria.


Well I was going to get 2 Axolotls which are about 60$ each and can't really be kept with other fish so I don't want to take any chances


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## duckyser

if you are new to fish keeping, then i suggest you start off with cheap small fish, rather than going out and spending 60 bucks on those axy things. In this way you can learn from them about cycling, feeding and sickness. If you heart is really set on those axy things though, get a few small fish and slowly build up the bioload to a point where you can take the fish out and swap in your axol things.


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## JoshOohAh

duckyser said:


> if you are new to fish keeping, then i suggest you start off with cheap small fish, rather than going out and spending 60 bucks on those axy things. In this way you can learn from them about cycling, feeding and sickness. If you heart is really set on those axy things though, get a few small fish and slowly build up the bioload to a point where you can take the fish out and swap in your axol things.


But what do I do with the other fish later? See I bought a beta fish and was going to put in a small glass bowl when I got my Axolotls. But he committed suicide and jumped out of the temporary cup I had before I put him in the tank.


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## Beijing08

What you need to do is start with hardy fish to cycle it. Don't forget to add in certain biological additives such as Nutrafin cycle to help establish bacteria, it should be under control within 1 week, if you have old filter old water etc...


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## JoshOohAh

Beijing08 said:


> What you need to do is start with hardy fish to cycle it. Don't forget to add in certain biological additives such as Nutrafin cycle to help establish bacteria, it should be under control within 1 week, if you have old filter old water etc...


Could you recommend a hardy fish. I don't know much I've been going off 100% of what my friend knows but his tanks always cycled no problem within a week which is weird.


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## Will

Zebra Danios- can't go wrong with them to test the cycle of your tank. Easy to give them away to somone looking to startup a new tank after you're done with them. They sell small danios for about $1.49.


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## gucci17

Just wait it out until there's no detectable levels of ammonia then put some fish in. Maybe feeders or something, you can always give those to me after


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Zebra Danios- can't go wrong with them to test the cycle of your tank. Easy to give them away to somone looking to startup a new tank after you're done with them. They sell small danios for about $1.49.


I need something that doesn't require a heater since my Axolotls prefer colder temperatures. Should these still be fine?


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## Will

Yes, they generally do fine in room temperature, but do well between 70-80F.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Yes, they generally do fine in room temperature, but do well between 70-80F.


K sweet yea my tank is at about room temperature


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## Will

JoshOohAh said:


> K sweet yea my tank is at about room temperature


Do you have a thermometer?


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Do you have a thermometer?


Yea. About 21 degrees Celsius


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## Will

Thats about 70F. If the lights are off, it might go up a couple degrees when they are on.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Thats about 70F. If the lights are off, it might go up a couple degrees when they are on.


If anything it will get cooler. Lights are on and heater is on plus I am using old computer fans to cool my tank (brings down about 2 degrees Celsius). I haven't put the fans on yet because I was told that bacteria can cycle better when its warmer. I really don't know for sure just going by what I've been told.


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## Will

Oh, well if you have a heater go ahead and boost it up a few degrees for your cycling fish & bacteria until you switchout the fish for the Axols.

Alternatively a slightly less resilient fish, but still very hardy is the White cloud minnow, which comes from regions receiving very cold water from mountain snow meltoff. They also inhabit the top most region of the tank, and are not aggressive. They would do okay in with the axols longterm.

-Unlike another coldwater fish, the common Goldfish, which would not be safe to keep with Axols.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Oh, well if you have a heater go ahead and boost it up a few degrees for your cycling fish & bacteria until you switchout the fish for the Axols.
> 
> Alternatively a slightly less resilient fish, but still very hardy is the White cloud minnow, which comes from regions receiving very cold water from mountain snow meltoff. They also inhabit the top most region of the tank, and are not aggressive. They would do okay in with the axols longterm.


Sorry I meant the house heater 

That actually sounds perfect because the Axolotls swim only on the bottom! Is this a popular fish to find because I would go pick it up tomorrow.


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## Will

JoshOohAh said:


> Sorry I meant the house heater
> 
> That actually sounds perfect because the Axolotls swim only on the bottom! Is this a popular fish to find because I would go pick it up tomorrow.


OHHH Haha.

Yes White Clouds are readily available at nearly every petstore with livestock. Remember to read up a few caresheets about them. Expect to pay $1.49-2.49 each. They do best in small or large schools.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> OHHH Haha.
> 
> Yes White Clouds are readily available at nearly every petstore with livestock. Remember to read up a few caresheets about them. Expect to pay $1.49-2.49 each. They do best in small or large schools.


Cool. I would prob spend like 10 bucks? so 4-5 sound like enough for a 20 gallon tank. I mean the sole purpose is just to test how things are


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## Will

JoshOohAh said:


> Cool. I would prob spend like 10 bucks? so 4-5 sound like enough for a 20 gallon tank. I mean the sole purpose is just to test how things are


Id suggest 5 or 6, then after a bit of cycling, start a second smaller and shorter cycle by adding another 5 for a total of 10 or 12. This should increase the amount of bacteria more, and allow for more waste to be converted.

If you only cycle the tank with 5 fish, the bacteria growth will only support about 5 fish's worth of waste. But once you have some of that good bacteria in the tank, it will quickly multiply if more waste is available, the downside is a potential ammonia spike while you have fish in the tank, if you have added too much, too soon.

When everything is going really well and has matured, you can put in your Axol and feed both it and especially the fish a bit sparingly and gradually increase food amount back to normal. Thisway you can minimalise a shock of much more waste all at once.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Id suggest 5 or 6, then after a bit of cycling, start a second smaller and shorter cycle by adding another 5 for a total of 10 or 12. This should increase the amount of bacteria more, and allow for more waste to be converted.
> 
> If you only cycle the tank with 5 fish, the bacteria growth will only support about 5 fish's worth of waste. But once you have some of that good bacteria in the tank, it will quickly multiply if more waste is available, the downside is an ammonia spike while you have fish in the tank.
> 
> When everything is going really well and has matured, you can put in your Axol and feed both it and especially the fish a bit sparingly and gradually increase food amount back to normal. Thisway you can minimalise a shock of much more waste all at once.


Sounds like a plan. Now what signs can I look for before I add the second school of fish? Or a time frame? Just curious how long this whole process can take.


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## Will

Cycling can take something like 1-6 weeks but generally happens in only a couple unless there is a significant amount of ammonia to be converted. If you have a test kit, measure Ammonia and NitrIte, when there is none of this or an immesurable amount, and only NitrAte is being produced and mesured, add them. Id say about a week.

While theres no way to tell without water testing, it might be something like;
Week 1-2 Setup
Week 2-3 Add fish, cycle begins
Week 3-4 Test, if good, add fish.
Week 4-5 cycle continues
Week 6-7 Test, wait another week for saftey or add an axol


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## Will

Also, if you have some live plants in the tank, they will reduce the NitrAte (far less potently toxic than Ammonia and NitrIte) without having to preform waterchanges, which can disrupt the cycle during the early life of a tank.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Cycling can take something like 1-6 weeks but generally happens in only a couple unless there is a significant amount of ammonia to be converted. If you have a test kit, measure Ammonia and NitrIte, when there is none of this or an immesurable amount, and only NitrAte is being produced and mesured, add them. Id say about a week.
> 
> While theres no way to tell without water testing, it might be something like;
> Week 1-2 Setup
> Week 2-3 Add fish, cycle begins
> Week 3-4 Test, if good, add fish.
> Week 4-5 cycle continues
> Week 6-7 Test, wait another week for saftey or add an axol





Will Hayward said:


> Also, if you have some live plants in the tank, they will reduce the NitrAte (far less potently toxic than Ammonia and NitrIte) without having to preform waterchanges, which can disrupt the cycle during the early life of a tank.


Haven't I already gone through week 1-2? Also I don't have any live plants so I guess your recommended I should pick some up? I just wanted to make sure my stuff was intact before I did anything else but maybe I should buy some.


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## Will

Yes you've done that week. Sure, everyone enjoys having plants in their tank, and I'm sure the tank inhabitants appreciate it also. If you ask around or look around on this site someone might be willing to hook you up with some free or cheap plants after they do a trimming of their aquatic Garden. alternative most stores carry some plants, but be sure to know what plant you are buying.


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## BettaBeats

put some filter floss in your filter if you want polished water (crystal clear water)

and be patient.


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## JoshOohAh

Will Hayward said:


> Yes you've done that week. Sure, everyone enjoys having plants in their tank, and I'm sure the tank inhabitants appreciate it also. If you ask around or look around on this site someone might be willing to hook you up with some free or cheap plants after they do a trimming of their aquatic Garden. alternative most stores carry some plants, but be sure to know what plant you are buying.


Thanks and what plants can I get / not get?



BettaBeats said:


> put some filter floss in your filter if you want polished water (crystal clear water)
> 
> and be patient.


Thanks I'll give it a try


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## Will

Well plants are worth a whole other thread. And there's lots of info on this forum if you search for keywords. But just to name a few; java fern, java moss, frogbit, duckweed, anubias, Canadian pond weed- elodea, and you gotta have some cryptocoreyne wendtii which are amazing hardy lowlight plants.


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## xr8dride

Not to sound foul or to put anyone down but it sounds like a lot more research and knowledge is needed here before even worrying about your cycle period. Keeping fish as a hobby requires a lot of knowledge and understanding of their requirements, it's simply not just tossing fish in water and watching them swim.

I received this same type of msg when I first began and it made me do a lot of studying as to what fish I would keep and what environment to provide for them. In the long run it will cause you (and your fish) less stress and headaches when, or if problems arise, because they will. 

Good luck with your new setup!


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## blackninja

JoshOohAh said:


> But what do I do with the other fish later? See I bought a beta fish and was going to put in a small glass bowl when I got my Axolotls. But he committed suicide and jumped out of the temporary cup I had before I put him in the tank.


Dying from suicide is a lot less painful than being killed by ammonia in the tank. That fish was trying to say something to you.


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## carmenh

Why don't you post where you are? I agree with Will, some plants could be helpful. If you're near Burlington, I have piles of duckweed and guppy grass...


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## bae

You started a fishless cycle by adding food pellets. Your ammonia is probably not dropping because the food pellets are continuing to rot and release ammonia. This is a good thing. It also likely explains the cloudiness of the water.

Axolotls are fairly delicate critters and get quite large. They require very clean cool water, but produce a substantial bioload, so you will have to provide them with very frequent water changes to keep them healthy. When they are kept in labs, they usually get daily 100% water changes unless they are in very large tanks. You should also consider what you will do in summer if you don't have air conditioning. Persistent high temps are bad for them.

Axolotls have been used as lab animals for a long time, so there's a lot of accurate information on keeping them healthy available. I suggest you do more research to decide whether you can keep them alive and healthy before you buy them.


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## Zebrapl3co

You know, in today's technological advancement and knowledge base. There is absolutely no need to torture/kill a fish to get a tank cycled. Can you people step in the 21 century and stop advising/encourage people to cycle a tank with a fish?

JoshOohAh, as for you trying to cycle a tank with fish food. Honestly, I laugh at people who does that, I just don't post them out loud. And I laugh at people who gives this advice even more.

Everybody cleans their fish tank for a reason. The better fish keepers would fish out any uneaten food 1 hour after it sits in the tank uneaten. For fish flakes, we fish them out 5 minutes after we drop them in, regardless if the fish was eating it or not. We do all this to keep the tank clean. You just don't start up a tank by turning it into a shit hole and then work your way out of it. There are better methods. It's obvious that you aren't listen to any of the better advices posted here. The only one you are listening to is your friend and he's probably blunder his way into his first tank as well.
Why don't you try googling for a sound article that tells you how to cycle a tank the right way.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## solarz

Zebrapl3co said:


> Everybody cleans their fish tank for a reason. The better fish keepers would fish out any uneaten food 1 hour after it sits in the tank uneaten. For fish flakes, we fish them out 5 minutes after we drop them in, regardless if the fish was eating it or not. We do all this to keep the tank clean.


Not if you have a planted tank. Why would you take out fish food when it can be perfectly good nutrient for plants?


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## blackninja

Zebrapl3co said:


> You know, in today's technological advancement and knowledge base. There is absolutely no need to torture/kill a fish to get a tank cycled. Can you people step in the 21 century and stop advising/encourage people to cycle a tank with a fish?
> 
> JoshOohAh, as for you trying to cycle a tank with fish food. Honestly, I laugh at people who does that, I just don't post them out loud. And I laugh at people who gives this advice even more.
> 
> Everybody cleans their fish tank for a reason. The better fish keepers would fish out any uneaten food 1 hour after it sits in the tank uneaten. For fish flakes, we fish them out 5 minutes after we drop them in, regardless if the fish was eating it or not. We do all this to keep the tank clean. You just don't start up a tank by turning it into a shit hole and then work your way out of it. There are better methods. It's obvious that you aren't listen to any of the better advices posted here. The only one you are listening to is your friend and he's probably blunder his way into his first tank as well.
> Why don't you try googling for a sound article that tells you how to cycle a tank the right way.


Zebrapl3co, that is the kind of straight talk we need more of around here. Free bad advice is worse than no advice. There are a lot of well written articles on cycling new tanks and Google is the safer route.


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## solarz

blackninja said:


> Zebrapl3co, that is the kind of straight talk we need more of around here. Free bad advice is worse than no advice. There are a lot of well written articles on cycling new tanks and Google is the safer route.


You're just as likely to get bad advice when you google.


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## Will

blackninja said:


> Dying from suicide is a lot less painful than being killed by ammonia in the tank. That fish was trying to say something to you.


Was it for sure? Hard to say, bettas are jumpers by habit. Besides I thought he said the betta jumped out of the betta cup Before he could get it into the tank.


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## Will

Josh, there is no one correct way to setup and maintain a tank.

A wise person would gather as much knowledge as possible ahead of time and formulate a plan of his own. Better to learn from or own, AND others mestakes, ahead of time, lest we kill all our fish!

Generating discussion on a forum is a great way to get opinion, but you'll have to combine with much research.


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## blackninja

solarz said:


> You're just as likely to get bad advice when you google.


Not if you read what you searched for and resist the pop ups.


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## solarz

right, when was the last time you searched google for setting up an aquarium?

Case in point, first result from this:

http://www.google.ca/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=vb.net+1+line+if+else&btnG=Google+Search#hl=en&expIds=17259,24472,25567,26425,26805,26885,27014&xhr=t&q=setting+up+aquarium&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&aq=f&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=setting+up+aq&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=a7248a2e7a166964

Go to the bottom of this article: it advises cycling with fish.


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## Zebrapl3co

solarz said:


> Not if you have a planted tank. Why would you take out fish food when it can be perfectly good nutrient for plants?


Because rotten food provides good nutrient for plants plus some extras or short on other stuff that the plants don't use. This chemical imbalance will promote algae growth, bringing your tank to another kind of problem.



solarz said:


> right, when was the last time you searched google for setting up an aquarium?
> 
> Case in point, first result from this: ... Go to the bottom of this article: it advises cycling with fish.


Yes, and that's exactly why other none harmful methods should be encourage. I think as a newer generation of fish keepers, it's up to us to change certain thinking.
Gone are the days that you have to make fish sacrifies to satan to bless your fish tank with mystical powers so your next fish will survive in your tank.

Honestly, if I want to toy with some newbs, I could've told them to piss in to his tank to get it to cycle and I gaurentee you that it will work.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## JoshOohAh

carmenh said:


> Why don't you post where you are? I agree with Will, some plants could be helpful. If you're near Burlington, I have piles of duckweed and guppy grass...


I'm in the Woodbridge area so it would be kind of far.



bae said:


> You started a fishless cycle by adding food pellets. Your ammonia is probably not dropping because the food pellets are continuing to rot and release ammonia. This is a good thing. It also likely explains the cloudiness of the water.
> 
> Axolotls are fairly delicate critters and get quite large. They require very clean cool water, but produce a substantial bioload, so you will have to provide them with very frequent water changes to keep them healthy. When they are kept in labs, they usually get daily 100% water changes unless they are in very large tanks. You should also consider what you will do in summer if you don't have air conditioning. Persistent high temps are bad for them.
> 
> Axolotls have been used as lab animals for a long time, so there's a lot of accurate information on keeping them healthy available. I suggest you do more research to decide whether you can keep them alive and healthy before you buy them.


 I do have air conditioning in the summer plus I have made my own cooling for the tank with old computer fans which have helped cool it thus far.



Zebrapl3co said:


> You know, in today's technological advancement and knowledge base. There is absolutely no need to torture/kill a fish to get a tank cycled. Can you people step in the 21 century and stop advising/encourage people to cycle a tank with a fish?
> 
> JoshOohAh, as for you trying to cycle a tank with fish food. Honestly, I laugh at people who does that, I just don't post them out loud. And I laugh at people who gives this advice even more.
> 
> Everybody cleans their fish tank for a reason. The better fish keepers would fish out any uneaten food 1 hour after it sits in the tank uneaten. For fish flakes, we fish them out 5 minutes after we drop them in, regardless if the fish was eating it or not. We do all this to keep the tank clean. You just don't start up a tank by turning it into a shit hole and then work your way out of it. There are better methods. It's obvious that you aren't listen to any of the better advices posted here. The only one you are listening to is your friend and he's probably blunder his way into his first tank as well.
> Why don't you try googling for a sound article that tells you how to cycle a tank the right way.


I did google and the majority of them told me to do what my friend told me and what I have been doing



blackninja said:


> Zebrapl3co, that is the kind of straight talk we need more of around here. Free bad advice is worse than no advice. There are a lot of well written articles on cycling new tanks and Google is the safer route.


This is why I asked here I value 1 opinion on here more than 3 opinions on google


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## JoshOohAh

solarz said:


> right, when was the last time you searched google for setting up an aquarium?
> 
> Case in point, first result from this:
> 
> http://www.google.ca/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=vb.net+1+line+if+else&btnG=Google+Search#hl=en&expIds=17259,24472,25567,26425,26805,26885,27014&xhr=t&q=setting+up+aquarium&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&aq=f&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=setting+up+aq&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=a7248a2e7a166964
> 
> Go to the bottom of this article: it advises cycling with fish.


Read the article and that seems to be what I'm doing now. I did a water change today and added dechlorinate and bio support. I also rinsed my filter and placed a new cartridge in it. Then later tonight I'm going go out and get something.


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## Lee_D

While your reading all this info on how to cycle a tank, could you please just throw in a snail to eat all that left over food? Or is that also considered cruel and heartless? I guess snails have feelings to...

Lee


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## solarz

JoshOohAh said:


> Read the article and that seems to be what I'm doing now. I did a water change today and added dechlorinate and bio support. I also rinsed my filter and placed a new cartridge in it. Then later tonight I'm going go out and get something.


Hey man, I haven't read your entire thread, so I've no idea what your situation is right now. However, I would highly recommend you to get plants. They will absorb ammonia and keep the water toxicity to a minimum. Go with floating plants: hornwort and duckweed works best.

One caveat though: you need a good light. Incandescent is worthless, and if you have fluorescent, make sure it's *full spectrum daylight*. If possible, you can also place your aquarium near a sunlit window. Don't worry about algae for now.

So if you have a good light source, fill your tank up with hornwort and duckweed, and make sure the water stays oxygenated via a filter or an air pump.


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## Chris S

Beijing08 said:


> +1
> 
> fish are somewhat tolerant of Ammonia, so they won't DIE if you put them in with .5ppm...it's just ideal to have none. Also, maybe getting a better filter for tank may help a bit. Waiting is the hardest part of fish keeping.


I can't believe nobody said anything here...

Fish are not tolerant of ammonia in any sense. Ideal doesn't mean no ammonia, bearable means no ammonia.

The word I think you were looking for is "toxic".


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## pat3612

Chris S said:


> I can't believe nobody said anything here...
> 
> Fish are not tolerant of ammonia in any sense. Ideal doesn't mean no ammonia, bearable means no ammonia.
> 
> The word I think you were looking for is "toxic".


I have to agree.


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## Lee_D

In Chemistry there is no such thing as "Zero". There is merely undetected. The ammonia has to go from the source (poop) to the bacteria (usually the filter) in some manner. It doesn't simply "Dissappear". In other words, there is ALWAYS ammonia in your tank, no matter how well cycled it is.

Lee


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## pat3612

First off good for you for doing research on axolots. They are not easy but with a few steps you should be fine. I would get some small feeders from petsmart fathead minnows they are grey or orange. Put them in your tank till it cycled then let your ax eat them. Just my opinion. By the way here is an exellent site.http://www.caudata.org/ Hope this helps Pat


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## Chris S

Lee_D said:


> In Chemistry there is no such thing as "Zero". There is merely undetected. The ammonia has to go from the source (poop) to the bacteria (usually the filter) in some manner. It doesn't simply "Dissappear". In other words, there is ALWAYS ammonia in your tank, no matter how well cycled it is.
> 
> Lee


If you want to nit-pick, then yes, of course you are right. Detectable levels of ammonia are not healthy for fish though.


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## JoshOohAh

pat3612 said:


> First off good for you for doing research on axolots. They are not easy but with a few steps you should be fine. I would get some small feeders from petsmart fathead minnows they are grey or orange. Put them in your tank till it cycled then let your ax eat them. Just my opinion. By the way here is an exellent site.http://www.caudata.org/ Hope this helps Pat


Yea I'm going to do this tonight hope all goes well.


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## pat3612

JoshOohAh said:


> Yea I'm going to do this tonight hope all goes well.


Good luck I have a tank cycling for my bichirs if you want I can post up a pic


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## JoshOohAh

pat3612 said:


> Good luck I have a tank cycling for my bichirs if you want I can post up a pic


You just started now? If so I would love to see a picture to see if the way my water looks is normal compared to other people


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## pat3612

I will post up some pics in about 10 mins under planted tank photos.


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## JoshOohAh

pat3612 said:


> I will post up some pics in about 10 mins under planted tank photos.


Cool link me off when you post

Also and update, I went to the closest fish store and they didn't have any minnows so I just picked up a Betta fish and will move into a smaller tank when I get my Axolotls.


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## blackninja

JoshOohAh said:


> Cool link me off when you post
> 
> Also and update, I went to the closest fish store and they didn't have any minnows so I just picked up a Betta fish and will move into a smaller tank when I get my Axolotls.


Betta fish do not make good specimens for testing water conditions in an aquarium or for cycling new tanks. They generate too little waste to raise ammonia levels and can survive high levels of toxicity because they like gouramis can breathe outside of water. In short what may be good enough for a betta may not be good enough for other more sensitive fish.


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## Lee_D

It seems to me what you just described is the perfect fish for cycling a tank. If it eats, it produces ammonia. If it is tolerant of high levels of ammonia, it can survive while the population of helpfull bactaria grows. A level of ammonia that is toxic to a Cardinal Tetra may simply be a bad smell to another fish. I would not cycle a tank with a cardinal, but I don't think a Catfish would mind if I gave him half my cheesburger. I think it is silly to follow rules like "Though shalt have no Ammonia" without understanding that that is impossible. It is always a question of how much. At the the beginning of the thread the poster said the level was 0.5 ppm. Is that high? Low? Medium? Nobody seems to have commented on that. I read somewhere 20 ppm was kind of high. He's 40 times lower than that. Ultimatly, it depends on the tolerance of the specific fish he intends to use. If you say Betta's are tolerant, then maybe that is a good fish to choose before he adds his more sensetive Xlotlwhatevers.


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## Lee_D

I think I'm going to have to do a bit more research into this. There really isn't much info on the net as to what IS a toxic level. Everything I read just says anything above zero is bad. I suspect the weakness in my argument is the poor detection limits of the standard aquarium test kits. If they can detect it, your fish are already dead seams to be the logic I'm running into.

Lee


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## blackninja

Lee_D said:


> I think I'm going to have to do a bit more research into this. There really isn't much info on the net as to what IS a toxic level. Everything I read just says anything above zero is bad. I suspect the weakness in my argument is the poor detection limits of the standard aquarium test kits. If they can detect it, your fish are already dead seams to be the logic I'm running into.
> 
> Lee


Rule of thumb 4.0 ppm is bad and 0 is ideal. Different fish have different tolerant levels. African Cichlids are medium, swordtails, rams and other smaller fish are very sensitive to ammonia levels. Bettas and Gouramis because they can breathe outside of water can tolerate higher levels. The larger SA have high tolerance and could cope with slightly above 4.0 ppm for small periods. But ammonia will burn fish gills and cause permanent damage so pushing the limit is not advisable. Hope that helps.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Are you sure that your ammonia test kit is accurate? A constant 0.5 ppm reading is fishy to me. What is your ammonia source? Did you add some food and it is decomposing?

W


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## JoshOohAh

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Are you sure that your ammonia test kit is accurate? A constant 0.5 ppm reading is fishy to me. What is your ammonia source? Did you add some food and it is decomposing?
> 
> W


It must have can't find anything around the tank


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## KhuliLoachFan

What kind of ammonia test is it? Did you try running the test against a glass of tap-water with one small drop of your dechlorinator added to that glass? If so, there are two possibilities: Either you get a zero reading (proving that your test works), or you get a non-zero reading (proving that either your test kit is garbage, or that your water contains chloramine and your dechlorinator is breaking it down into chlorine which is neutralized, and ammonia, which your conditioner is not handling).

Either way: If you are near scarboro, come to my house and get some hornwort. Problem solved.

W


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## JoshOohAh

KhuliLoachFan said:


> What kind of ammonia test is it? Did you try running the test against a glass of tap-water with one small drop of your dechlorinator added to that glass? If so, there are two possibilities: Either you get a zero reading (proving that your test works), or you get a non-zero reading (proving that either your test kit is garbage, or that your water contains chloramine and your dechlorinator is breaking it down into chlorine which is neutralized, and ammonia, which your conditioner is not handling).
> 
> W


Api freshhwater test kit. But after adding the betta fish, within a day it has gone down to .25ppm


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## KhuliLoachFan

API test kits are really reliable. Dip strips are not. So you're good.

Your betta will love some floating plants. Find some.

W


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## JoshOohAh

KhuliLoachFan said:


> API test kits are really reliable. Dip strips are not. So you're good.
> 
> Your betta will love some floating plants. Find some.
> 
> W


However from my understanding my Axolotls spend most of their time on the bottom of the tank. So its not worth it once I move my betta into something smaller. Thanks for the advice though


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## KhuliLoachFan

Wow ! Axolotl! I wanted to get one when they got them in at Menagerie, but it was hard to justify the price.

Cool! What kind of habitat do you plan for the axolotl?

W


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## JoshOohAh

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Wow ! Axolotl! I wanted to get one when they got them in at Menagerie, but it was hard to justify the price.
> 
> Cool! What kind of habitat do you plan for the axolotl?
> 
> W


How much were they there? They are 60$ at Big Als in Missuagua. Anyways I just have plastic plants and some toys in there now and I plan to get 2 and put them in my 20 Gallon tank. But ideally I wanted to find a plant that can survive with little light (basically whatever comes through my windows) because Axolotls don't like too much light.


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## KhuliLoachFan

I would try Hygro Polysperma (planted in substrate), Java fern (attached to wood), and Hornwort (floating). They will do fine in a regular light level (one fluorescent non-special fixture), with about a 10-11 hour photoperiod (lights on a timer). Would your axolotl be okay with 11 hours of a 1w per gallon light fixture? (So 20w on a 20gallon tank, 30w on a 30 gallon, etc). If your axolotl wants less light, I'd go with more floating plants, they will block lots of light out, and oxegenate your tank. Hornwort in particular is excellent for denitrifying and absorbing ammonia, and producing oxygen. 

W


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## JoshOohAh

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I would try Hygro Polysperma (planted in substrate), Java fern (attached to wood), and Hornwort (floating). They will do fine in a regular light level (one fluorescent non-special fixture), with about a 10-11 hour photoperiod (lights on a timer). Would your axolotl be okay with 11 hours of a 1w per gallon light fixture? (So 20w on a 20gallon tank, 30w on a 30 gallon, etc). If your axolotl wants less light, I'd go with more floating plants, they will block lots of light out, and oxegenate your tank. Hornwort in particular is excellent for denitrifying and absorbing ammonia, and producing oxygen.
> 
> W


Alright thanks! However from what I've researched they don't want much light at all so I probably won't get a light fixture.


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## JoshOohAh

Updated the thread sorry for a double post / bump but I kind of have a new problem now


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