# Time for Some Neediness!



## Plaid

Hello, everyone. I haven't posted much, so I realize I seem like a bit of a mooch. I do a lot of lurking.
Now, on to the mooching...

So, here's the deal now. Some of you may remember my other mooch-thread, and I thank you all very much. But I've learned a lot since then, and now I just want things cleared up.

I have a 96W Power Compact lighting strip, and a glass lid for my tank (36x16x20). I want to stay away from CO2 and vodoo-substrate, if possible. Voodoo being layered/Eco-Complete/Florite. Well, Florite I could do, if I can mix it with sand. Yeah, I plan on doing a sand substrate. I know this can cause issues with poisonous bubbles, so what can be done to rectify said bubble issues? 

What are some nice plants that I can usually get around here, that AREN'T dependant on substrate nutrients, and fit my light range? I like Java Moss, and will definately be doing some work involving it. What else? How about moneywort? All ideas are good!

Wes


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## desjardo

My father just used the rona sand/fluorite mix and it seems great. He uses fertilizer that I make here (based on pmdd). I think you should be ok to plant what you want if your tanks under 50gal.
All depends on the look you want.
I use a DIY c02, sand, excel, and homemade ferts.
I see daily growth and they are all very green. 
I dose my ferts every other day as well as excel. My excel i do at 1/2 dose.
This is pretty cost effecient and is working so far for me.

I am anxiously waiting some red colored plants I have on order!


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## Sunstar

I need a scale to mix my ferts. I am playing a bit dangerously by eyeballing it. So far so good though. But a scale is high on my list.


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## Darkblade48

Sunstar said:


> I need a scale to mix my ferts. I am playing a bit dangerously by eyeballing it. So far so good though. But a scale is high on my list.


For aquarium purposes, a scale that is capable of measuring to 0.1 g (or better) will be sufficient. You can get a half-decent (read: will require calibration every time you want to measure something) scale for under $30 quite easily off eBay, etc. I myself purchased such a scale for ~$15. I also purchased a scale with 0.001g resolution for ~$30, but this is definitely a lot more finicky, and subject to "creeping digit syndrome" (i.e. the weighings are different, or the object slowly becomes heavier/lighter, etc).

Such problems exist with cheap scales, but for aquarium purposes, they're fine. Also, you could eyeball using "teaspoon" measurements (i.e. volume measurements). Again, for aquarium intents and purposes, this estimate is also fine (it's what I used for a few years before I got my cheap scales).

Getting back to the originally posted question. You have a (n approximately) 50g tank, so with 96W, it'll put you at nearly 2 WPG. This is a bit high if you're trying to maintain a low light/low maintenance planted tank, but could work.

You can definitely get away without using expensive substrates, and maybe CO2 and fertilizers, but again, it depends, as light is the driving factor. If there is an imbalance in any one of the three (nutrients, light or CO2), you're more likely to get algae.

With a sand substrate, you'll want to either have some burrowing snails (i.e. MTS) or just stir up the substrate occasionally (i.e. during your regular water changes) to ensure that no poisonous gases (mainly hydrogen sulfide) build up. MTS will help mitigate this problem due to their natural tendency to burrow around in the substrate.

For plant ideas, you could use anything that isn't really a substrate feeder (i.e. obtain most of their nutrients from the water column). You could grow low light plants such as Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, and even some stem plants (easy ones such as Hygrophila, Bacopa, etc). With 2 WPG though, again, you may have to watch your CO2 and nutrient levels though.


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## Plaid

Darkblade48 said:


> Getting back to the originally posted question. You have a (n approximately) 50g tank, so with 96W, it'll put you at nearly 2 WPG. This is a bit high if you're trying to maintain a low light/low maintenance planted tank, but could work.


WHOA
You just blew my mind.

Are you suggesting that I go DOWN in WPG? I'm still very sketchy on the whole "lighting levels" thing. I haven't actually purchased the lighting, so I can go down if I have to. What model, preferably available at Big Al's Canada, do you recommend for low-light? I would like to keep costs below 150, if possible.

Also, what filter do you all recommend? The Eheim Classics seem to have a low flow rate for their advertized aquarium sizes? If I could get a Rena xP2 for 125, or a, Eheim 2215 for 135, (no tax), which should I buy? Assume that I have plenty of time to work out user-friendliness issues.

Where can I get MTS? Noone around here sells it, and all that's in the fish tanks is Pond Snails. Ew. Do MTS overbreed and make a mess of everything? Can Kuhli loaches eat them?

And substrate. For the plants you mentioned, I can just use straight sand? Will regular water changes fill in the nutrient needs of those plants?

Hurray for being needy.
Wes


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## Darkblade48

Plaid said:


> Are you suggesting that I go DOWN in WPG? I'm still very sketchy on the whole "lighting levels" thing. What model, preferably available at Big Al's Canada, do you recommend for low-light? I would like to keep costs below 150, if possible.


Yes, you can definitely go down in WPG to maybe 1.5 WPG (about 75 watts). This will put you into the low light/low maintenance range, so you won't have to worry as much about "voodoo substrates", fertilizers or CO2.

As for lights, I've always found the cheapest option is to just get a hardware fluorescent light fixture and replace the stock tubes with some Daylight (6500K) T8s (or better yet, T5s if the light fixture uses them). For sure, this will be cheaper than buying the light fixture from Big Al's.



Plaid said:


> Also, what filter do you all recommend? The Eheim Classics seem to have a low flow rate for their advertized aquarium sizes? If I could get a Rena xP2 for 125, or a, Eheim 2215 for 135, (no tax), which should I buy? Assume that I have plenty of time to work out user-friendliness issues.


Yes, the Eheims do have a lower flow rate for their advertised aquarium sizes, but I believe this was because the flow rates are advertised with the filter media factored in. Other brands have "optimal" flow rates, i.e. the nominal flow rate without any filter media in the filter to slow down the flow of water.

Between Rena and Eheim, you'll get a lot of differing opinions. Some people will swear by Eheim because of their quiet nature, or because of the good experiences they've had, etc. Personally, I like Eheim because of their low propensity to have media bypass as well as their extreme quietness.



Plaid said:


> Where can I get MTS? Noone around here sells it, and all that's in the fish tanks is Pond Snails. Ew. Do MTS overbreed and make a mess of everything? Can Kuhli loaches eat them?


I'm pretty sure there are some users on these forums that will have MTS for sale/trade or even willing to give them away. MTS, like any other snail, will overbreed and take over the tank if you overfeed your fish. I believe most loaches cannot eat MTS because of the protective nature of their operculum. However, in my experience, I have several 6 inch Clown Loaches, and I've found (on more than one occasion) cleaned out MTS shells...



Plaid said:


> And substrate. For the plants you mentioned, I can just use straight sand? Will regular water changes fill in the nutrient needs of those plants?


For the plants that I mentioned, you can use straight sand. The species I listed are more heavily dependent on obtaining nutrients from the water column as opposed to from the substrate. Regular water changes may or may not satisfy the nutrient needs of those plants. There are several factors to consider:

a) Your fish stocking levels
b) How heavily planted your tank is
c) How much light you have
d) How much nutrients is in your tap water

a) If you are heavily stocked, then the fish will be able to provide some nitrates for your plants
b) The more plants you have, the faster the nutrients will be depleted from the water column
c) The more light you have, the more demand there will be for nutrients and CO2
d) Self explanatory.


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## Calmer

Wow Darkblade48, As Plaid is digesting all of that above I would like to say that you have nailed the progression of questions into the right order. I have been trying to get a progression of questions in the right order for some time now. Thanks 

Does this sound right?

1 Tank size (which determines # 2)
2 Co2 or not (which determines # 3)
3 Lighting - High or Low (which determines # 4)
4 Plant types - (which determines # 5)
5 Fertilising - EI or Natural or somewhere in between (which determines # 6)
6 Water chemistry (which determines #7 )
7 Substrate (which precedes to #8 )
8 Filtration (which precedes #9 )
9 Tank temperature (which determines #10 )
10 Type of fish, shrimp, snails ... to house.


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## duffgrot

Petsmart at Eglinton & Laird will give you as many Malaysian Trumpet Snails as you want for free.


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## Plaid

Calmer said:


> Wow Darkblade48, As Plaid is digesting all of that above I would like to say that you have nailed the progression of questions into the right order. I have been trying to get a progression of questions in the right order for some time now. Thanks
> 
> Does this sound right?
> 
> 1 Tank size (which determines # 2)
> 2 Co2 or not (which determines # 3)
> 3 Lighting - High or Low (which determines # 4)
> 4 Plant types - (which determines # 5)
> 5 Fertilising - EI or Natural or somewhere in between (which determines # 6)
> 6 Water chemistry (which determines #7 )
> 7 Substrate (which precedes to #8 )
> 8 Filtration (which precedes #9 )
> 9 Tank temperature (which determines #10 )
> 10 Type of fish, shrimp, snails ... to house.


I have indigestion from all that. I can answer those questions, though.

1. 50 gallons.
2. I'd rather not.
3. Low.
4. ???
5. Rather not.
6. pH 7.2. Hard water, about 300. 
7.Straight sand.
8.I'm thinking a Rena xP2. Any good ideas about it?
9.76 F
10. 6 Kuhli Loaches, 2 Albino BN Plecos, 6 Julii Corys, 1 male and 1 female Golden Wonder Killifish, a pint of Red Cherry Shrimp.

I need a centerpiece fish. Nothing there will really occupy the centre half of the fish tank. Any ideas? I thought maybe a couple Blue Rams. Help me out on this one! A half-dozen Rainbowfish? Help! 

Also, does anyone have a nice list of low-light, non-substrate plants? 
"You could grow low light plants such as Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, and even some stem plants (easy ones such as Hygrophila, Bacopa, etc). "
Any other ones? Those are very nice, though, and thank you by the way.

Wes


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## Darkblade48

Calmer said:


> Does this sound right?
> 
> 1 Tank size (which determines # 2)
> 2 Co2 or not (which determines # 3)
> 3 Lighting - High or Low (which determines # 4)
> 4 Plant types - (which determines # 5)
> 5 Fertilising - EI or Natural or somewhere in between (which determines # 6)
> 6 Water chemistry (which determines #7 )
> 7 Substrate (which precedes to #8 )
> 8 Filtration (which precedes #9 )
> 9 Tank temperature (which determines #10 )
> 10 Type of fish, shrimp, snails ... to house.


There's a few changes I'd make to the order that you've listed the items in. For example, tank size can be number 1, but whether you use CO2 or not is dependent on your lighting conditions. It also depends on the types of plants you want to grow. From there, you can determine whether CO2 and fertilization will be required (i.e. high light conditions will require CO2 and fertilization, lest you want to grow algae). The type of plants is somewhat dependent on the substrate you use. Temperature, and filtration are not that important in determining what type of plants you can grow. The type of fish may be (i.e. don't try to have a planted tank with goldfish or with African cichlids, etc).

So, to revise your list, I'd perhaps rank them as follows (from things you should consider first to those that you don't really need to worry about):

1) Tank size
2) Light
3) CO2/Fertilization
4) Substrate
5) Type of Plants
6) Type of Fish
7) Water chemistry
8) Filtration/Tank Temperature



Plaid said:


> Also, does anyone have a nice list of low-light, non-substrate plants?
> "You could grow low light plants such as Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, and even some stem plants (easy ones such as Hygrophila, Bacopa, etc). "
> Any other ones? Those are very nice, though, and thank you by the way.


There are lots of Anubias species to choose from, and lots of different mosses you could try (Christmas moss, Flame moss, Java moss, Singapore moss, Fissidens, etc). Another stem plant that comes to mind is Egeria.


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## ameekplec.

Plaid said:


> "You could grow low light plants such as Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, and even some stem plants (easy ones such as Hygrophila, Bacopa, etc). "


Try cryptocorynes. Low to medium light and many attractive growth/leaf shapes within the genus. I'm into them right now, and there are a lot of nice ones available from stores and fellow hobbyists locally. And with a 20" deep tank, tall slender crypts can stretch out a bit and look very attractive ( try C. Balansae, C. retro/spiralis which should be easier to get).

A decent resource is plantgeek.net's plant guide: http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide.php

IMO, go with the Eheims. I like them, like Anthony, for their design (low bypass), silence, and dependability. I have 5 eheim canisters, and I won't be switching brands anytime soon.

While we're on the things to consider front, I'd do it this way:
1) Tank size
5) Type of Plants
2) CO2/Fertilization
3) Light
4) Substrate
6) Type of Fish
7) Water chemistry
8) Filtration/Tank Temperature

The type of plants you want to keep really dictates the necessity of other equipment. If you're looking to keep a dense foreground like HC, glosso or hairgrass, you have to have CO2/excel and high light. the rest are really dependent on the item before them.


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## Darkblade48

I was considering the possibility of suggesting Crypts, but I was always under the impression they tended to favour substrate feeding rather than obtaining their nutrients from the water column.


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## XbrandonX

If you're willing to pay an additional 150 to 'lower' your lights why not just spend that coin on some Eco Complete substrate, you can get it cheap from Mops.ca and they allow pick ups to save on shipping, thats where I got mine.. Also I would strongly suggest taking a look at C02 for your set up. If your running 2 watts per gallon then your going to run into algae issues. C02 will help GREATLY in battling algae.

There's great info at http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ as well. Highly recommend taking a look around there.

You could probably find a reasonably priced filter and C02 system in local classifieds too... I got my ehiem 2215 for $100 and my Rena xp3 for like 120 brand new.


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## Calmer

Also Plaid, I'd like to emphasize what was mentioned earlier by others about Flourish Excel as it can be a good alternative to co2 injection. It isn't advertised but *slight overdosing* of excel can be used as an algaecide for most algae types. A normal daily dose can work good as spot treatments as well. See this for a good explanation of excel: http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c163336/p16857948.html
You can use the 96w lighting with excel to prevent algae building up. If there are plants you want that like to be root fed then you can use a root fertiliser tab if needed rather than "voodoo substrates". I don't use "voodoo substrates" in my tanks. You can also use Hang On Back filters. A lot of people use aquaclear filters, myself included. http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5809/c6270/index.html

It is good that you are taking your time and reading and asking everything you can as it will help later down the road to prevent expensive dead ends or forks in the road.
A lot depends on what you prefer and how much you want to spend. 
Good luck digesting.


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## ameekplec.

BTW, if you're interested in a used Eheim 2217 ($75): 
http://www.pricenetwork.ca/deal/FS_Eheim_2217_Canister_Filter_For_sale_-210685.html


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## Calmer

Looks like a good deal that ameekplec. is showing there.


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## Calmer

How does this look? I took a little from both responses.

For Planted Tanks:

1) Type of Plants - http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_cat.php?category=1
2) Tank Size/Light - W/gal.
3) CO2/Fertilisation
4) Substrate/Water Chemistry
5) Type of Filtration

The type of plants chosen are dependant on light strength and the w/gal. calculation determines whether to use Co2 or not and fertilisation methods.
Substrate and water chemistry are taken into account and then lastly filtration

For Fish Tanks:

1) Type of Fish
2) Tank Size/Water chemistry
3) Fish Companionship
4) Type of Filtration/Heater/Substrate


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## Plaid

*Update!*

Okay, first of all, thank you all very much for your help here.
Secondly, I apoligize for being late in responding. New router, D-Link, you know how it is to set them up.

And thirdly, an update!

1. I got a stand.
2. I've decided that I will compromize on the lighting and CO2 and ferts, and on the substrate.
I need you all to help me out here: I have 2 WPG, Power Compact planned. It's all I can get around here.
I'll do DIY CO2, dose with simple liquid ferts, use standard 4mm gravel, AND use ONE bag (7kg) of Flourite, if it'll help to mix it with the bottom layer of substrate. NO VOODOO! 
Does this open up my options any more for plants? Will X-Mas Moss thrive here?

I think it's worth it to go over my specs.
a: Tank- 50 Gallon Tank. 36'' x 16'', 20'' tall.
b: Chemistry- 75 degrees. pH 7.2. DIY CO2. Water is rather hard, standard
Toronto water supply.
c: Lighting- 96W Power Compact. Just about 2WPG.
d: Substrate- Gravel. 7kg of Flourite mixed in, maybe a bottom layer. 
No voodoo.
e: Fish!- I want... 6 Kuhlis, 6 Julii Corys, 2 BN Plecos, 2 Blue Rams, 
2 Golden Killifish, 6 Australian Rainbowfish, and a pint of Red 
Cherry Shrimp.
f: Plants- I want an X-Mas Moss Wall. It'd be nice, I think. I also want a 
carpet of Fissidens Splachnobryoides **EDIT** Whoops! That one's emmersed! 
What can I use for a nice carpet, then ? How about a glossostigma?**EDIT**, and 
some Crypt Wendtii and Anubias Barteri. What else? Some XMas moss tied to
caves, maybe. I'd also like some tall plants, behind the 
driftwood and caves. Any ideas? Tall, greed plants. Something 
the loaches can snake around in.

WOW
That's a lot of text. Please help me out as much as you can. And again, thanks for all your help.

Wes


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## Darkblade48

Plaid said:


> Secondly, I apoligize for being late in responding. New router, D-Link, you know how it is to set them up.


It's plug and play, isn't it 



Plaid said:


> 2. I've decided that I will compromize (sic) on the lighting and CO2 and ferts, and on the substrate.
> I need you all to help me out here: I have 2 WPG, Power Compact planned. It's all I can get around here.


You could probably go to Home Depot, and make your own canopy if you ever wanted more light 



Plaid said:


> I'll do DIY CO2, dose with simple liquid ferts, use standard 4mm gravel, AND use ONE bag (7kg) of Flourite, if it'll help to mix it with the bottom layer of substrate. NO VOODOO!


DIY CO2 in a 50 gallon tank? It'll be more hassle than you can imagine. You'd need about 3-4 bottles of the stuff to get a stable CO2 supply, and the initial savings will quickly accumulate. Not to mention the hassle it is to deal with switching the concoctions every week.

As for simple liquid fertilizers, again, in the long run, it's definitely more expensive to use commercial products rather than the bulk dry chemicals. I'm sure there are some users that can help you out to get started, all you need to do is ask. Awhile back, I helped Tabatha set up her planted tank (with all the nutrients explanations, etc). It's really not that complicated once you get the hang of what you need to do (i.e. mix x grams of potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, and potassium dihydrogen phosphate into 500 mL water and then dose (say) 5 mL per day; or alternatively, you can dose the dry chemicals directly, etc). Just ask if you want to take this route, you'll enjoy the savings in the long run 



Plaid said:


> Does this open up my options any more for plants? Will X-Mas Moss thrive here?


With 2 WPG, CO2 (please, for your sake, go pressurized! You'll realize how much hassle DIY CO2 on a 50g tank is very fast), this definitely opens up more possibilities for different plants. Christmas moss will survive.



Plaid said:


> e: Fish!- I want... 6 Kuhlis, 6 Julii Corys, 2 BN Plecos, 2 Blue Rams,
> 2 Golden Killifish, 6 Australian Rainbowfish, and a pint of Red
> Cherry Shrimp.


Be aware that Cories do prefer a sand substrate. Some people will attest that non-sand substrates will wear out their barbels.



Plaid said:


> f: Plants- I want an X-Mas Moss Wall. It'd be nice, I think.


Not a problem; you can get the "moss wall" effect by sandwiching moss between two pieces of wire screen, or even two pieces of plastic canvas.



Plaid said:


> What can I use for a nice carpet, then ? How about a glossostigma?


You'll need more light than 2 WPG to get a nice carpet of Glosso to grow. Especially with a semi-deep tank and 2 WPG, you may find that your Glosso will tend to grow vertically rather than horizontally.



Plaid said:


> **EDIT**, and some Crypt Wendtii and Anubias Barteri. What else? Some XMas moss tied to caves, maybe. I'd also like some tall plants, behind the driftwood and caves. Any ideas? Tall, greed (sic) plants. Something the loaches can snake around in.


Crypt. wendtii should be OK if you have a bottom layer of fluorite; of course, you can always supplement with root tabs for those heavier root feeders. Anubias barteri will be fine, since it's more of a water column feeder anyway (be sure to attach it to a piece of driftwood; it can be planted in the gravel, but be sure to leave the rhizome exposed, as it requires light). Christmas moss tied to caves will be fine.

For tall plants behind the driftwood and caves, there are lots of possibilities. You could use some stem plants (Hygro, Egeria, Rotala, etc), Vallisneria sp., even Amazon swords would be OK.

Hope that helps.


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## Plaid

*Alright!*

Pressurized CO2... it sounds like an expensive system. 
I'm trying to keep costs down, because I never get enough hours at work. How much would it cost, what is maintanence like, etc?
Flourite. It is best to make a layer of it at the bottom, rather than mix it through the substrate?
Corys: I'm using a smooth gravel, so it'll be OK on their little barbels.
DIY Lights: How does one go about such a thing? Got a link to a tutorial?

Thanks,
Wes


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## Sameer

Well I have a 45G planted tank with 2.84 Watts per gallon. I am very lucky to get a free tank that is 42x12x18. Why? Because a T8 fixture is 42 inches long. I went to Canadian Tire and bought 2 T8 light fixtures (4 6500K tubes) that costed me very little(I bought them this past summer and at the time the government had the $10 off a light fixture deal). So now, my 2 T8 fixtures are safely on top of the tank (if you want I can post a pic). I havent read the topic much but I can see you have a 50G, is it the same length as my 45?

In my 45G, I have 3 DIY CO2s injected with a power head. I also dose flourish and it is a lot of maintance. I hooked up 2 bottle and after 2 weeks when the bubble rate dropped a bit I hooked up another. At one point I had a total of 4 bottles hooked up. Right now even the HC is bubbling in my tank. Make sure if you can that you use a power head to mix in CO2 if your gonna go DIY. All the other methods are very in efficient such as the bell method, ladder.... I can also post a pic of what happens when theres high light and no CO2 for 2 weeks. After a month when the mixture died, I didnt change it for 2 weeks. You can see the effects that even though the plants grew, they were white or pale and had holes in them(Also have a pic).

Right now the biggest problem in my tank is algae, I have the worst kind, Cladophora algae(http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/). Seems it likes conditions most plants do and it has been thriving in my tank for the last month. Right now I think it might have slowed down. It really attacked my Dhair grass and every weekend I take out a baseball amount. Weekly water changes, CO2 and ferts are the first bit of the problem.

BTW, Id really like to know about the dry ferts please.


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## Darkblade48

Plaid said:


> Pressurized CO2... it sounds like an expensive system.
> I'm trying to keep costs down, because I never get enough hours at work. How much would it cost, what is maintanence like, etc?
> Flourite. It is best to make a layer of it at the bottom, rather than mix it through the substrate?
> Corys: I'm using a smooth gravel, so it'll be OK on their little barbels.
> DIY Lights: How does one go about such a thing? Got a link to a tutorial?


Pressurized CO2 isn't that bad. The initial setup cost would be about $200, but it definitely pays off in the long run. Maintenance wise, it's pretty simple once everything is set up; you would just have to monitor the CO2 tank to make sure it wasn't running too low (depending on your tank size, your bubble rate, etc, a 5 lb tank could last you maybe half a year, since you have a rather large tank).

Definitely though, most people will not recommend DIY CO2 for a tank your size, since you will have to use multiple bottles, and it will be quite the hassle to maintain the DIY CO2 concoctions week after week. In addition, the cost of sugar and yeast will accumulate.

Flourite: This is up to you; you can layer it on the bottom or mix it within the gravel. Depends on what "look" you find aesthetically pleasing.

DIY Lights: There isn't really a tutorial that I comes particularly to mind; if you are a DIY'er though, building a simple canopy with (say) several 3 foot T8 bulbs (each 25 W, so you could easily cram in as many, or as few, lights as you want). This would involve ballasts, end caps, etc.

If you're not the DIY type, you can still probably get away with those light fixtures that you can buy at Home Depot/Rona/whatever you have around your area. It'd still be cheaper than buying from an aquarium store.


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## XbrandonX

i HIGHLY recommend going pressurized C02.. if you check around you might be able to get a used set up on the cheap.

You can get powdered nutrients at most Hydroponic Stores and they're really cheap too. like $6 for a plastic container (margarine sized) that will last you like a year or more each. WAY cheaper than the $10 bottles of stuff that you need to replace every couple months. ( I dose my 90G EI method and just mix the dry powders in a little bowl each day, Micros one day Macros the next, with tank water and dump it in. every week I do a 50% WC and some pruning.. nice and easy)

Out of curiosity what is you have against planted tank substrates? Why do you call them 'voodoo' substrates? When I made the switch from sand and root tabs to Eco Complete planted tank substrate my plants FLOURISHED they got greener, thicker, more lush, and opened right up. Especially my stargrass. 

I know EC is more expensive but I think its totally worth it afterwards.


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## ameekplec.

Go eco-complete. You're going to do it in 3 months anyways, save yourself the hassle of tearing everything up and replanting it, as well as the cost of a few bags of play sand and the other bag of eco-complete or flourite you wasted by mixing the sand in.

If you're intending to go with CO2 for a large tank, don't bother with DIY Co2. It's more hassle than it's worth. If you go pressurized, there are less issues to worry about like supply and production. Plus you have far less fluctuation in CO2 production rates, and you can control when the CO2 is intoduced (solenoid on timer or controller).

FYI, you can probably find a decent Tank + Regulator/solenoid set used for about $150. If you're into automation, you could probably get a used pH controller for about $125 too. Check out the classifieds, pricenetwork.ca or other sites for CO2 parts. Also FYI, check on marine and Salt water sites for CO2 gear. They use it for Calcium reactors and denitrators, so you may be able to pick up a set there.


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## Plaid

The tranquility of a planted tank is really starting to look like a trap.
At the risk of looking like some kind of creep who is willing to sarifice quality for cost, how much do you think planting this beast is going to run me up?



XbrandonX said:


> Out of curiosity what is you have against planted tank substrates?


I really have nothing against them. 
I called them voodoo substrates after I read some ridiculously complicated layering of laterite, flourite, and sand on some website somewhere. That's what I mean by voodoo. 

You'll all have to give me some time to crunch some numbers on this. But as far as I can tell... Well, give me a while.

Thank you all very much for your input, I have read ever post here. If I have not adressed you, it is because it it 11:00. Goodnight.
Wes.


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## Darkblade48

Sameer said:


> BTW, Id really like to know about the dry ferts please.


Just noticed your post, and I'll start a new post rather than edit my last one (different topic, and I think this one will be quite long anyway).

In terms of dry fertilizers, there are several basic ones that you need.

1) Trace mix 
2) Potassium nitrate
3) Potassium monohydrogen/dihydrogen phosphate
4) Potassium sulfate/Potassium chloride
5) Magnesium sulfate

Now to explain what each one is and what each one does:

1) Trace mix
Well, this one is pretty self explanatory. It'll add various trace elements (Iron, copper, molybdenum, cobalt, manganese, etc) that are required by your plants.

2) Potassium nitrate (KNO3) 
Is the main source of nitrates for your tank. It also provides a source of potassium.

3) Potassium monohydrogen/dihydrogen phosphate (K2HPO4 or KH2PO4)
This will provide phosphorus in the form of phosphates to your plants. It also provides some potassium.

4) Potassium sulfate/potassium chloride (K2SO4 and KCl)
These two often serve as a source of potassium, but the potassium sulfate serves the dual purpose of providing sulfur (in the form of sulfates) as well. Potassium chloride can be used, but is generally not recommended due to the addition of chloride anions to the water column.

5) Magnesium sulfate (MgSO4)
This is usually added in especially if your water is soft. This shouldn't be a problem in Toronto, since we have hard water, so it's more optional.

Most of these can be acquired at a local hydroponics store (of which there are several around the GTA). The prices are quite reasonable (i.e. maybe $4-5 for a 1 lb tub).

When dosing these fertilizers, if you are following the EI dosing regime (there are other regimes, such as PPS-Pro), you would dose micros every other day and macros every other day. On the 7th day, you would not dose and simply carry out your water change to "reset" the nutrients and prevent them from accumulating too high.

In order to dose these dry fertilizers, you have several choices. You can dose directly (i.e. take the dry chemical powder, mix it in a small amount of water and then dump into your tank every other day), or you can mix up a batch in water and then dose as if it were a commercial liquid product (this is what I prefer to do). There really isn't any difference between the two.

If you look on Tom Barr's site/forums for information on EI dosing, you might get something like this:



> This is an example of EI for a 28 week supply for a 20 gallon tank.
> 
> To 1 liter of DI water add:
> 
> 60 grams KNO3
> 10 grams of KH2PO4
> 25 grams of GH booster
> 
> Add 5 mls of this solution daily.


You can of course, adjust the values so that the amount of liquid you're dosing is more/less (i.e. if you want to dose 10 mL per day instead, but keep the nutrients level the same, then you'd just halve the amount of each chemical you're adding into the DI water). You'll note that you're only using 60 grams of KNO3, and given that you can purchase them in 1 lb (454 g) tubs, you'll easily see that one tub will last you a long time (i.e. 454 g / 60 g is about 7 L of solution you can prepare. And if you're only using 5 mL per day....)

And for those that are curious, I believe the GH Booster was magnesium sulfate and calcium sulfate (mainly for those that have soft water).

There's also a lot of information here:

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3133

Hope that helps.


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## Darkblade48

Plaid said:


> The tranquility of a planted tank is really starting to look like a trap.


It's not just planted tanks; it's this entire hobby 



Plaid said:


> At the risk of looking like some kind of creep who is willing to sarifice (sic) quality for cost, how much do you think planting this beast is going to run me up?


It doesn't have to be too expensive. The easiest way to acquire new plants is to just browse the classified areas of these forums and other local GTA forums (such as Pricenetwork). People often have extra plants for sale and they are much cheaper than trying to buy them from aquarium stores.



Plaid said:


> I called them voodoo substrates after I read some ridiculously complicated layering of laterite, flourite, and sand on some website somewhere.


If you use laterite, then you'd have to use it under your normal substrate, but there is no need to mix laterite with fluorite. In addition, mixing laterite and fluorite with sand is very questionable, the sand will simply fall between the fluorite grains...


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## XbrandonX

If the scale of this project is pushing you back then perhaps you could try a low tech 20 Gallon tank where you can fool around with different DIY C02 methods and different substrates etc to see if you want to go big or not. The main obstacle in your plan is the size of your tank and your limitations with DIY C02. 

Start smaller and go low tech. Save the bigger tank for later... It would probably cost less to set up a low tech 20 then it would to buy the C02 system.

Try it and see if you like it then decide wether you want to commit to high tech.

I've probably spent in the neighborhood of $1200 on my 90G planted... maybe even more, I don't keep track. My C02 regulater from Rex Grigg, full c02 tank, the diffusers I tried out before building my new diy inline reactor, 6 bags of EcoComplete, 90 Gallon tank and stand (used), 4x55W T5HO lighting (used), UV sterilzer, Rena XP3, 2 heaters, and then all my plants and fish... adds up fast. 

Not to mention the now thrown away bags of playsand & root tabs I used first (lol) 

But I have a planted 20G 'low tech' with some Bolivian Rams and I LOVE IT! beautiful little tank with beautiful little fish and lots of healthy Hygro's and Ferns slowly growing in there. NO co2 of any type just some excel when i remember it and sometimes I add a little bit of the ferts when I dose my 90. Very simple set up. Regular small black aquarium gravel in there too.


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## ameekplec.

You can always start small and go high tech also. Get all the components you need for pressurized CO2(regulator, tank, solenoid, needle valve, etc), and start to collect other things that could be put into the bigger tank (1 or 2 bags of eco-complete, a few plant species) and start a 20g high tech tank. It'll be easier to maintain, and much less daunting. When you feel you're ready, just dump everything into the 50 and upgrade a few pieces of equipment.

You could also practice EI on a smaller scale before going into it much bigger.


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## Plaid

*Update!*

I have made a decision:
Low tech tank.

I now am going to buy a 42-watt T5 strip. That should give me just under 1wpg, and with T5 lights, that should classify me as "low-light."

I have flourite as my substrate. After the initial incident, involving brown water, I now have the tank clear, and ready to plant!

So I'm going to run to Al's some time, grab the light, some Cryptocorynes, Anubias, Java Fern, and start a-planting.

How do I plant these plants? Also, how do I prevent snails? Will any of the following eat snails: Panda Corys, Kuhli Loaches, Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish, Raphael Cat, Golden Panchax Killi, BN Plecos?

Also, Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish. Being small, are they... edible fish? I mean, I'm staying away fromr Neons, cause Killis and Raphaels can SLURP them. Is a Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish too large to SLURP?

How to plant those plants, snail massacre, and edible rainbowfish. Help?

Wes

EDIT
Maybe I'll scrap the raphael catfish. They apparently eat crustaceans, and I DO love my cherry shrimp.

Also, has anyone kept corydoras with Flourite? Is it too sharp for their cute little whiskers?


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## wngt368

Try to feed only what is needed and pick out the snails manually. That is th ebest way to minimize them.


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## Plaid

I'm more concerned about never having snails in the first place.

Anyone? Read the last post for information. 

Wes.


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## Calmer

Plaid said:


> I have made a decision:
> Low tech tank.
> 
> I now am going to buy a 42-watt T5 strip. That should give me just under 1wpg, and with T5 lights, that should classify me as "low-light."
> 
> I have flourite as my substrate. After the initial incident, involving brown water, I now have the tank clear, and ready to plant!
> 
> So I'm going to run to Al's some time, grab the light, some Cryptocorynes, Anubias, Java Fern, and start a-planting.


I have Cryptocoryne wendtii and some small pieces of Java fern that are snail free. This should get you off to a fine start.
Message me if you can make it out to Pickering to pick it up.


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## Darkblade48

Plaid said:


> I have made a decision:
> Low tech tank.
> 
> I now am going to buy a 42-watt T5 strip. That should give me just under 1wpg, and with T5 lights, that should classify me as "low-light."


A good decision, you're actually a little over 1 WPG, since T5 lights are a bit more efficient than your standard T12 or T8 bulbs (the WPG guideline was made with T12 bulbs in mind) due to a decreased amount of restrike.



Plaid said:


> So I'm going to run to Al's some time, grab the light, some Cryptocorynes, Anubias, Java Fern, and start a-planting.
> 
> How do I plant these plants?


Crypts: Plant them into the substrate; you can push them into the substrate and then give them a slight tug upwards to ensure that their crown stays above the substrate. Be aware that Crypts don't like to be moved, so they might be subject to "Crypt Rot", where they will look as if they are melting (you'll understand once you see it), but they will recover given enough time.

Anubias and Java Fern: While you can plant these into the substrate (ensure that the rhizome (it looks like a horizontal stick from which the roots and leaves come out) is above the substrate), it's a better idea to tie these plants to driftwood or rocks using some black cotton thread/fishing line. I personally prefer the former since the black cotton thread is hard to see and will eventually disintegrate (hopefully by then, the plant will have attached itself to the driftwood/rock).



Plaid said:


> Also, how do I prevent snails? Will any of the following eat snails: Panda Corys, Kuhli Loaches, Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish, Raphael Cat, Golden Panchax Killi, BN Plecos?


There really is no surefire way to ensure you have no snails/snail eggs (unless you do alum dips/bleach dips/potassium permanganate dips, etc). When you buy the plants, you can always look carefully for any snail eggs (they look like clear little bubbles attached to the plants) or snails. There is a lot of information on various dips, so you can do a search for them (the different dip treatments have different treating times and also different efficacy).

As far as I know, none of those fish species will eat snails (maybe the Kuhli Loaches, but I've never had them before, so I can't be sure).



Plaid said:


> Also, has anyone kept corydoras with Flourite? Is it too sharp for their cute little whiskers?


I'm also curious regarding this, I was wondering if I could keep Cory Cats with a Fluorite substrate.


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## Plaid

WHOAAAA

The manager at Big Al's has a heart. I am so surprised right now.

The guy stopped selling the light strip I wanted, because it was burning out for too many people. So now, I am in a pickle. Anyone happen to know a model of light for me? 36", 50-ish watts. This threw a mighty wrench in my plans.

Thanks,
Wes


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## Darkblade48

Again, for something like this, you could always check out Home Depot/Rona/whatever hardware store you have in your area to see if they have something similar for a cheaper price.


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