# continuation of CRS201



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey folks,
So I have a beautiful son now and thus I've been neglecting this hobby for the past 2 months. (My latest hobby is catching up on sleeping) I finally got a chance to stop by Aqua Inspiration ( not too fond of the name, I would of named it "shrimp land of awesomeness"  ) anyways got 2 bags of netlea Crs soil for $80 and now I have a new wind of enthusiasm to get back into this hobby. (Keep in mind guys the new ada isn't as good as before, in fact I hear it's pretty bad. I picked netlea cuz I had great experience with it prior and also when I was at the shrimp store in korea that offically sold benibachi shrimps they carried ADA, benibachi red bee and Netlea subs which signaled to me it was on par with the big players)

Ideally I want to do a few updates on crs 201. I've learned many theories over the past 2 years of keep crs and am continuing to learn new things. I've also discovered some mistakes I posted in CRS 201 and want to take some time to rectify them.

Anyways stay tuned for some really fun updates.
Oh and btw I was thinking that maybe we can have 2 inverts subcatagories. Beginners and advanced. I personally have found it disheartening when I go on forums like shrimpnow or bluetiger and see a flood of posts every month asking the same questions like "can I use tap" or " why do my babies not survive" ect...over and over and over.. Yeah you get the point..when I see this redundency with a lack of new content I often feel discouraged to even bother checking the forum.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think this site is big enough to support 2 separate sections. Post's go days in between here, so I don't think it's needed. 

Yes, it can get frustrating seeing posts that a simple search sometimes can answer, but remember a few years ago you were in that position. 

A quick look on shrimpnow shows that 2 years ago you were asking how much to feed your shrimp, how to lower pH, how to keep gH at a level and less than a year ago you were still asking what is the best kind of filter, whether to use a bare bottom tank, asking about TDS or even what kind of filter media to use.

Aren't you glad people took the time to answer your questions to get you to the position you are now and maybe taking 5 minutes out of your day to help someone who is on the verge of loosing $200 in shrimp helps complete the circle?


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

I clearly recall during my novice days, going onto a forum, feeling overwhelmed by the flood of information and trying to decide with my limited experience which of those theories/techniques applied to me. I believe separating the novice information from the intermediate would assist hobbyists by clearly defining which stage of the hobby they currently are at and help guide specific areas they need to be focusing on, such as water parameters as oppose to say, UGF set ups or bacteria cultures. More knowledgeable members are encouraged to go into the novice section and offer experienced sound advice so the concern of not helping new members shouldn't even be an issue. 

The size of the forum is the biggest issue, but I am confident it can be increase with knowledgeable and frequent content. 

I'm gathering some exciting information about bacteria which I can hopefully put together and share in a few days.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Everyone can learn from everyone else, what we need more is being considerate and courteous when asking and answering. And to be honest, even with an advanced forum, experts still won't give out the top secrets and newbies still will ask novice questions there. I used to be in a group of "advanced" killie breeders in the area I was at and it's in those meetings you have a chance to hear something that doesn't show up in a magazine or forum. (mind you that was 20 years ago and there was no internet;-) There's nothing wrong making a proposal though.


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## laurahmm (Apr 1, 2010)

congratz on your son  that's awesome news... 

any additional information on crs would be very helpful ... I always enjoyed reading the information you provided on CRS regardless if it's advanced or for beginners... and looking forward to reading about what you learned about bacteria...

so several quick questions... in your opinion... I'm going to set up another shrimp tank as well... I'm debating between ADA or trying the shrimp netlea soil...

it seems that ADA and perhaps this applies to netlea as well need to be replaced after a year or so... was wondering why this is the case? IF I only use RO water from the very beginning... I know it loses its buffering capability over time... but ada soil or netlea must have more properties than just lowering your PH? My PH is still low but it seems after a year... a lot less babies are reaching adulthood... and I'm doing the exact same thing I did before... so it makes me wonder if my soil is no longer doing something else? Aside from keeping my PH low? I've been on break on CRS as well but getting back to them... so after this I'll do a search to see if you wrote anything about what soils do in particular... but why did you pick netlea over ADA? And do you think netlea will last longer? I hope I'm wrong about this...because the idea of having to redo my tank after approx one year is a pain...


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey Laura,

I asked that exact same question to a professional breeder to which he answered, it was due to the humic and fulvic acids ( a sub catagory of the humic acid) in the active soil. These acids promote breeding and survival rates in baby shrimps. Now this breeder actually changes his soil every 9 months even with r/o water but we need to keep in mind his application is for fast reproduction with a high density of shrimps per tank. The average use should be 1 year. So basically you need the soil for the acids.

ADA is ...or rather was the dominate soil used in toronto but since they changed the extraction site the quality has been sub par. I would recomannd the Netlea (crystal shrimp soil not the "brown" which is inteded for plants) infact I just bought 3 bags last week from Aqua Ins as it is also time I changed my sub. Since my crs have stopped breeding. Like I mentioned in another post, I've had great success with netlea and they even carried it in a shrimp specialty store in Korea beside ada and benibachi. 


I will do a tutorial with photos when I redo my 30gal next week and show you exactly how to layer everything so that you never need to vacum your substrate. (Which can cause more harm then good) and a few trick to make it last longer.


BTW I'm gald to hear you enjoy these posts. It's actually very encouraging to hear your feedback and appreciation. It's motivating to know that there is an interest as oppose to me just writing to myself (which gets boring) and in effect keeps me coming back to write more.

You guys can look forward to the following topics I will be covering in the coming months which will also be a good reminder for me to actually write them.

-bacteria (gram positive/negative, saving shrimps from infections) 
-nutrition and immune systems
-advanced parameters to test for 
-advanced tank set up
-breeder box and nurseies (the right way vs the wrong way)


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## souldct (Nov 26, 2009)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Hey Laura,
> 
> I asked that exact same question to a professional breeder to which he answered, it was due to the humic and fulvic acids ( a sub catagory of the humic acid) in the active soil. These acids promote breeding and survival rates in baby shrimps. Now this breeder actually changes his soil every 9 months even with r/o water but we need to keep in mind his application is for fast reproduction with a high density of shrimps per tank. The average use should be 1 year. So basically you need the soil for the acids.


That's why I don't understand the point of buying used active soil whether it's ADA or any other brand. All the nutrients have been used up, the fulvic acids are gone, and is no longer able to buffer the water. What's left of it is just plain soil...


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

My 10 gallon CRS tank has at least 50 adults and probably a couple hundred young in all sizes from tiny to sub adult. I do not use any fancy foods or soil or any of the expensive unnecessary things that you people think are necessary. I took my advice from Brian Ahmer who was breeding them before most of you even heard of shrimp. Here is his article. http://www.brianstropicals.com/pages/Crystal-Red-Shrimp.html

My shrimp range from S to SSS. My wife changes half the water once a week with half a pail of RO and the rest with a garden hose straight from the tap.

Some bags of shrimp will be in the Hamilton Auction on Saturday March 17th.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Is the water quality the same in Burlington than here in Toronto?


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

The water is all out of Lake Ontario. The only difference may be that we have ozone purification. The only time we have a bit of chlorine is when the lake gets stirred up by high winds or rain run off. We change water reguardless.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

The water comes out at like 150 TDS with 10 GH/KH from the tap here... I can't justify risking testing out shrimp in tap water from here.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

Lake Ontario water is about the same everywhere. My TDS is 160 and the GH/KH are about the same as yours. The shrimp are tougher than you think. Don't you think that water quality and other factors change rapidly in the places that fish and shrimp come from. Water flow and volume can increase 80% with a good storm. Some of my fish get up to 75% water changes straight from the tap to help induce spawning with no problems. You can not do this with newly bought fish or shrimp but after they have adapted to your water without all the expensive and unnecessary products they become hardy.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

There is truth in what you say. In reality crs don't require a lot of the products on the market. But there are a few essentails you should not overlook. Now keep in mind I'm speaking from personnal experience with higher grade crs. One cannot assume a C grade requires the same care and attention as an SS jprl. 50% change in theory sounds great but a lot of inexperienced people can kill a lot of crs that way. You NEED to make sure the parameters you add back into the tank are identical to the tank's para. TDS, Gh, PH, KH. It seems very odd that your adding tap straight from the garden hose. You don't prime the tap to remove chlorine and in the summer months, chloramine?

To knowledge which is from online english forums and those in asia. CRS basically require:

Mineral powder
1 meat based food ( Mosura or fish food)
Organic spinach/squash (very health for their diet)
Air stone (o2 inhibits certain bacterias)
Good sized filter with ample bio media (no carbon)
Indian almond leaves and beta glucan to boost immunity against infections.
Active soil to bring ph to below 7.
TDS less then 40ppm for faster population growth
And TDS higher then 120ppm for slower growth but better colors.
Baby food (if you want the majority of them survivng to adulthood)

One can argue I can avoid all this and just feed fish food and keep it basic. Which prorbably will work with a tank full of C- low S grades with blotchy whites. But unless you personally have experience of a tank full of high grade crs, averaging $40 per shrimp, then your not in a position to everyone your method is correct for most crs grades. Remember in the wild they haven't been inbred into thwse beautiful mutations. An S grade with vivid white all over it's body and legs is about as genetically diverse as the royal british family.



Bwhiskered said:


> My 10 gallon CRS tank has at least 50 adults and probably a couple hundred young in all sizes from tiny to sub adult. I do not use any fancy foods or soil or any of the expensive unnecessary things that you people think are necessary. I took my advice from Brian Ahmer who was breeding them before most of you even heard of shrimp. Here is his article. http://www.brianstropicals.com/pages/Crystal-Red-Shrimp.html
> 
> My shrimp range from S to SSS. My wife changes half the water once a week with half a pail of RO and the rest with a garden hose straight from the tap.
> 
> Some bags of shrimp will be in the Hamilton Auction on Saturday March 17th.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Looking forward to more to this CRS 201. When you first gave me advice when I was starting out experiencing dying CRS, I was kind of in disbelief at some of the advice you were giving me. Now I notice everyone else starting out make the same mistakes!


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

All I can say is if you think all the things you mention are necessary I believe you fall in the line of being a sucker. The people that breed professionaly do it as cheap as possible. They only say they use these product to grab more money. The products were made and packaged not for shrimp but for profit. Granted their water is different than ours but any healthy shrimp should be able to adjust to different conditions reguardless of grade. 

I have been in the hobby for 60 years and was even a breeeder at a tropical fish hatchery in the early 60's. A lot of things that are used in the hobby are not really necessary. They were developed to bleed the new hobbyists.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

The majority of them are not targeted towards the shrimp market other then the soil.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> One cannot assume a C grade requires the same care and attention as an SS jprl.


Maybe with the new JPL's but nowadays even SSS have been bred enough that they are as hardy as C grade. 4-5 years ago, when SSS were rare, they were a lot more sensitive but now, they are more hardy. I take my cull crystals and throw them in my tap water tank, dosing ferts, excel, and they are fine. Not breeding as they are only badly colored males, but they are alive and eating fine. I have spoken with a few european breeders who keep some of their shrimp in 8/8/8 ph/gh/kh because that is what they have over there including crystals and Taiwan Bee's. One told me the key was a 2-3 month acclimation to the higher water. Plop and drop from 5pH 3gH to 8pH, going to loose a bunch. Slowly over a few months do small WC's with more and more of a % of tap water and they can survive and do fine. The thing is we buy crystals and bee's that are breed and kept in certain water, and to maximize breeding and % that live, we keep them in similar water that they have spent all their lives in. Go in a plane and go up fast and live at 30,000 feet all of a sudden and you will have problems. Gradually move up 5,000 every month or two for a year and you will have a lot less time at 30,000 feet as your body slowly adapts. I admit, my crystals are kept in a low pH tank with Netlea soil because it mimics the water they came from and they are breeding good, but I do think you can keep them in a variety of parameters, both ways. Mordlaphus from TPT has tap water that is 5pH. Comes out that way all year long. He keeps his shrimp in that and is breeding TB's. Europeans breeding TB's in 8pH. Who's right?


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

The biggest thing I've learned about keeping shrimp, is go with what works for you. Watch your shrimp, see how they breed, and go with that. There is no magic formula that works 100% of the time for everyone.

I don't think its hokey pokey though what people suggest or keep these shrimp in. They actually go and analyze the water in the natural areas the shrimp come from. It is a very pure low ph/low gh water. The best is to mimic this if possible.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

getochkn said:


> The biggest thing I've learned about keeping shrimp, is go with what works for you. Watch your shrimp, see how they breed, and go with that. There is no magic formula that works 100% of the time for everyone.


That's one thing I've noticed as wwell. Every tank has specific para,temp, and bacteria the shrimps become acustomed to. There is no ideal condition, but they do have to stay within a tolerence to breed and show their best colors.

One thing I haven't made clear is that my post and advice is geared towards hoobyists who want to PROPERLY take care of their crs.

If you are starting out with B's and A's use primed tap water and just feed fish flakes. They will even breed though not at maximum potential. These tips I post are meant for meant for greater reproduction rates, and more vivid colors. Adding indian almond leafs helps spped up healing if a shrimp is injured after a molt when his shell is still soft. You want that injury to heal qucikly before the shell hardens and is rigid. Adding mineral powder or montrilla clay (spelling) helps with boosting white color and adds to the gh and tds. Using R/O water with active soil gives them the ideal condition for health and reproduction. Genetically they are designed for 6.5 ph but if you give them 8 ph they can survive but won't do well.

I think what I'm trying to say is that each individual will have an idea of their own level of commitment. Either you w/c 50% with a garden hose or 10% with R/O water already matched to the tanks parameter depends entirely on each person's prerogative and quality of crs they keep. It's foolish to assume the results will be the same.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

Well spoken Getochkn. Whether it be shrimp or wild caught plecos or any fish for that matter they they will adapt to most conditions such as hardness and PH over a period of time. New fish or shrimp can be difficult to acclimatize but once they are they will adapt to rapid changes easily. The same fish that you struggle to keep from dying when you first get them will take cool water changes from straight tap water several months later. The seasonal rains in the wild will change the PH and quality of water in a few hours or less. The fish or shrimp can take this because they are healthy and well fed. They are still just as hardy and healthy in places where they are bred and only have to be adapted to our water from theirs to make keeping and breeding them easy without unnecessary expense.


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