# Help, fish dying !



## 20GallonPirate (Nov 1, 2010)

Hey guys, so after getting a community tank set up, i thought id have better luck than with the chichlids in my 20G. turns out i was wrong 

i lost 5 Neon tetras (found them stuck to the filters on different days)
and lost 2 hatchet fish

when i placed in my new fish the tank was already up and running for a few months, i just added a second smaller filter and left the old one as is. 
i tested the water daily for the first few weeks, everything was perfect. NO2 and NO3 were at ZERO and still are to this day. the water is CLEAR, good water movement in my tank.

the only thing i noticed was brown stuff forming on the glass and excessively on one of my rocks. I looked it up and ppl said it was just brown algae, which is harmless and can be removed easily. is this what keeps killing my fish??

please help !


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

> NO2 and NO3 were at ZERO


If NO2 is 0 and NO3 is 0...

Then logically NH3 must be above 0.

And there's your culprit...

Solution? Read the sticky on performing a fishless cycle, it wouldn't hurt to read a couple other articles on the nitrogen cycle as well, just to gain a greater understand of what's going on here with the beneficial bacteria, as this is such a crucial part of keeping fish successfully, and yet there seems to be a fair bit of common misinformation floating around (ie. using water from an established tank to transfer the bacteria).

The other possibility is that your test is reading 0ppm NH3 (ammonia) as well... In which case your test kit is giving you wrong readings and is probably expired.

Btw, yes, that's common brown algae. Very common... Especially in newly setup tanks. It should correct itself as the tank gets established... Until then it's not going to hurt anything and many fish, etc will enjoy eating it.


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## Antoine Doinel (Dec 20, 2010)

When you say it was running for a few months, what exactly do you mean? 

Neons are not actually are hardy fish. Their popularity is also their undoing, as years of bad breeding habits (quantity over quality) has turned them into a pretty sensitive fish.


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## 20GallonPirate (Nov 1, 2010)

Well I got this tank set up in october, i put in cichlids which wasnt the best idea for a 20G...so after a few months of that i finally got the time to re stock everything. I got rid of my chichlids early in january, did about a 70% water change, let the tank run for 3 days with the same old set up, same filter, and occasionaly i started to add new community fish. as mentioned i added an extra filter....but it was a small one so i dont think it would hve re-cycled the tank because i even asked and the staff at BA said it was ok.


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## Carlito (Feb 10, 2011)

*Neon Tetras*

*I found this article online...*

*How to Keep Neon Tetras*

Although they are small, about 1 1/2 inches long, neon tetras have iridescent red and greenish blue stripes that look almost electric in their intensity and make them a natural focal point in the aquarium. They are the crowing jewels of many show tanks and, as such, are one of the most popular freshwater tropical fish.A native of the upper Amazon in South America, neon tetras are gentle fish that are good candidates for a community tank of small to medium size fish. They prefer to live in schools, so plan on keeping at least four to eight together, and keep them with gentle fish like angelfish, guppies and dwarf gouramis, or with other smaller tetra species.

*1.* Offer neon tetras a consistent temperature between 76 degrees F and 80 degrees F.

*2.* Main soft to neutral water in their tank. They prefer a pH of 5.0-7.0.

*3.* Provide a tank that has plenty of hiding places and open area in the middle to lower third of the tank. Neon tetras are fast movers that like to roam, so make sure that there's some open area where they can put on a good show swimming back and forth. They prefer subdued lighting, so keep a layer of floating plants if you like to keep the aquarium light on. They also feel more comfortable with dark gravel on the bottom of the tank.

*4.* Select fish that have good, bright color and aren't frightened. Neon tetras are naturally timid. If the fish in your retailer's tank have good color and aren't hiding, they are probably in good condition and will get over the shock of moving to a new environment quickly.

*5.* Feed neon tetras flaked food with the addition of live foods like brine shrimp and daphnia once a week. Adding live food to their diet will help to keep them in good condition and maintain their color at its brightest.


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

20GallonPirate said:


> Well I got this tank set up in october, i put in cichlids which wasnt the best idea for a 20G...so after a few months of that i finally got the time to re stock everything. I got rid of my chichlids early in january, did about a 70% water change, let the tank run for 3 days with the same old set up, same filter, and occasionaly i started to add new community fish. as mentioned i added an extra filter....but it was a small one so i dont think it would hve re-cycled the tank because i even asked and the staff at BA said it was ok.


Just to clarify the term "cycled". I think some people get confused when people talk about a tank being 'cycled'. It's not actually your tank that you're cycling (ok well to some extent it is, since there are surfaces inside the tank), it's your filter media. And all 'cycling' is referring to is allowing the beneficial bacteria to establish itself and grow. Sort of a misnomer if you think about it.

So yes, as the BA staff assured you, adding a new filter will not disturb your established population, as long as you aren't removing your established media.

You can transfer the media the the new filter, or whatever, but as long as the water is still coming in contact with the established media, you wont have to re-cycle 'your tank'.

The thing about your readings of 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates is that this generally isn't normal in a cycled tank, unless perhaps you have lots of plants, or you're using anaerobic filter media to convert nitrates into nitrogen gas, which isn't exactly common). If both nitrite and nitrates are reading 0, and there are fish and waste producers in the tank, then either your test kit is giving you incorrect readings, or your nitrogen waste is all in the form of ammonia because for whatever reason you do not have the beneficial bacteria present to oxidize it.

Assuming your test kit is correct, I would suggest it possible that your 70% water change could have left your bacteria without any nitrogenous waste to feed on for 3 days, so it died off.

Without an ammonia reading from when the fish died I can't say for certain whether ammonia is actually what caused the fish to die, but given 0 nitrite and nitrate and the assumption of an accurate test kit, it would be a reasonable deduction.

Speaking of test kits, are you using a liquid test or strip tests? The liquid tests are much more accurate, and I've heard some claims that the strip tests can be off by as much as 40ppm at times. I've only used liquid, so I can't comment.


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## Antoine Doinel (Dec 20, 2010)

Was going to post essentially what qwerty said. There's a chance you killed your bacteria colony. Hard to say for sure though, since you easily could have had a bit of decaying food/feces in the gravel that would have fed them. 

Best way to see what is going on is to do water tests every day. You should never see ammonia/nitrite in a properly cycled tank. Nitrate is usually readable, though in a healthy tank it should be barely visible. 

And yes, if you have a strip test, chuck it.

BTW, how long did you have the fish before they died?


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

Well, I wouldn't say test EVERY day... But do test as soon as you see problems like sick fish or fish dying, or even fish not acting right or looking dull in colour, etc.

Unless you're talking about during a fish-in cycle.

And I guess it might not be a bad idea to test daily for the first 24-72 hours after putting your first fish in after a fishless cycle, and maybe 24 hours after adding fish if you've added a bunch all at once.


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## Antoine Doinel (Dec 20, 2010)

I only suggest once a day until he figures out if he's still cycled or not. May not even be necessary. Let's see if he's using a test strip kit or he just bought the fish.

For what it's worth, i had the same thing happen with the first group of neons I got, and my water parameters were perfect. Half of them died in the first week. The other half have been doing great for months.


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## 1200assassin (Jan 14, 2011)

I have found that neon tetras arent hardy fish at all and are very sensitive to changes in whater temperature and chemistry. 

I have never bought a group and all of them survived once introducing them to the tank. You will usually see die offs with in a week or 2. The ones that survive the 2 week period usually last. 

Keep in mind that it is also winter. Was there a dramatic temperature change in the container between the time you took them out of the store and when they were put into the tank?

Did you aclimatize them to the water in your tank? (floating the bag in your tank until the temperature of the bag was identical to the temperature of your tank, dripping tank water into their bag every few minutes to adjust them to the change in ph, etc?)

Neon Tetras are usually the first to go if there is a problem with a tank. What was said above about the bacteria dying off due to no ammonia is a very very good point. Brown algae is usually a sign that a tank is coming to the end of it's cycle and then replaced by green algae. The other cause is low light coupled with to much nutrients in the water. Hope this helps.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

If you get a 50% survival rate from BA fish that is about average even when properly quarantined. Try Aquatic Kingdom I have 100% there.


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## 20GallonPirate (Nov 1, 2010)

Hey guys, thanks for all your replies! Im just busy with midterms for no so this is my first time actually reading the comments.

OK so to clear up some questions.

1.) I am using test strips, the API ones

2.) I put in 3 neons at first, and then 3 more after a few days...after about 3 or 4 days i started to loose one of them per day or per two days. now there is only one left

3.) also my hatchet fish lasted about 1.5 weeks and one died, other one did after a few days. since the very begining, i put in 3 zebra danios...and these guys are still alive and have actually grown and look very healthy today, so does the other lonely tetra lol. 

I will be buying some liquid test kits today hopefully if i have the time, also, its coming time for me to change my biomax filter media... should i change it or leave it the same for now, i was thinking putting in that ammonia remover media thats for the AC filters.


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## Carlito (Feb 10, 2011)

I would change the media if it's more than a month old, if not rinse it in a bucket of your tank water. 

Your tank is only 20G, 1 inch of fish per gallon is a general rule to keep in mind when adding fish to your aquarium. You had cichlids before and now you need to decide what kind of fish to put in your aquarium. What about livebearers? Guppies, swordtails, mollies and platys are hardy fish, colorful, many varieties and you don't have to buy many as they are easy to breed.

Neon tetras as mentioned by some members are not hardy fish and tend to be sensitive to their environment and are usually the first to go when a problem arises. Perhaps you can add some later, when you have your water condition under control and are not losing any fish....


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

Unless there's carbon in it or some special resin, or something else that's going to stop being active or that's going to start putting things back into the water, there's really no reason to change any of your media.

Just rinse it in a bucket of tank water to get the gunk out of it, then put it back in.

Bio media doesn't expire, and sponges don't expire... They can get gunky, but that can be fixed with a good rinse.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm quite certain most hobbyists don't replace their media like the box tells them to unless it's actually falling apart or something, and people aren't experiencing any problems with it whatsoever.


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## LexiBadger (Oct 19, 2010)

Bwhiskered said:


> If you get a 50% survival rate from BA fish that is about average even when properly quarantined. Try Aquatic Kingdom I have 100% there.


Noooo kidding. I've had a better survival rate with PetSmart fish, which I think is kinda weird.


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm surprised actually... Well... Sort of...

On the one hand the BA's in Barrie is one of the better ones that I know of.

On the other hand every time I've purchased livestock from BA's at least half of them have something wrong with them.

All I can say is glad I run a quarantine and get my fish elsewhere


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## 20GallonPirate (Nov 1, 2010)

wow so i dont have to change my filter media huh? that would save me like 20$ a month lol. by the AC are 3 stage filters...so i have the carbon in them... i should change that but leave the biomax and foam the same? just a few rinses every few months?


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

Yeah... I got an AC20 and AC70, and I'm using AC brand sponges as prefilters on my canister intakes. If you squeeze the sponge out it should get the gunk out from inside it so water can flow through is properly again.

The biomedia is easy enough to just dunk or pour the water over it to flush out the gunk, etc.

Just make sure that whatever water you use is dechlorinated (so don't go running it under tap water).

I never use carbon in those filters though, I just put more biomedia or an extra sponge. Only exception is if I've got a tank I've been using medication in, then I'll use the carbon to remove that. Otherwise though I've never needed it, but know plenty of people who are happier using it than not using it.

Well, I use Boyd's chemi-pure which has carbon in it, but I'm only using that for the resin, I swear! 

Also remember that every time you change your media, you're removing all the beneficial bacteria that's grown on it.


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