# Best approach to Equipment Acquistion-newbie



## FrankS (Dec 11, 2013)

Just getting into the hobby, so trolling the forums and reading like crazy...checking the equipment for sales here and on Kajiji. The question...
What is the best approach for a newbie to acquire equipment? Cost is a consideration or else I would just buy new. Should I purchase equipment randomly over a period of time or buy an aquarium that someone is selling that is "complete" but no fish or inverts or "complete" with livestock. Personally, I'm thinking I'd learn more by purchasing on an ad hoc basis and putting it together overtime rather than just buying someone else's system. Comments/Suggestions?


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## goffebeans (Jul 23, 2007)

Not the answer you're probably looking for but it depends on what you want and how much you want to spend.

I think typically you'll get a significantly better deal waiting for someone to sell their entire setup as they don't want to bother parting everything out.
Though good setups are hard to come by around here. If you look on canreef, there's a lot more options but they're all out west.

All the little things add up quickly and next thing you know you spent a lot more than you were planning.


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## Mikeylikes (Nov 22, 2013)

as Goffebeans noted it depends on what you want.

If you're looking for deals it will be a long and slow process to put everything together. Full set-ups for resale are rare but not unheard of. Just have to be really patient and troll the various boards or Kijiji.

That said I wanted to do this slow and see what I can get second hand. Gave that up and ended up with 95% of my equipment being net new which adds up really quickly. I've already spent $3K+ and still trolling for deals anywhere I can get them.

Good luck !


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## kevinli1021 (Sep 9, 2010)

Honestly, it really depends how much you love this hobby. If you think you will like it and would be highly interested in it, I don't think it is good to buy low quality parts and assemble it together. Eventually you will run into problems or try to find ways to replace it. In the long run, if you are truly interested in the hobby then I would say buy the essential stuff new (i.e. the right tank, the right lights) but buy things that are not about appearance old (i.e. filter, heater). 

How I saved a lot of money was order small products from ebay. Kijiji helps a lot too and sometimes the forums as well. I recommend posting "WTB whatever" rather than simply scrolling through the existing posts - you get what you want faster.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

first make your mind what size tank you want. With sump or without.

Most expensive equipment requirements will depend an the size of the tank

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## FrankS (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks for your replies and I'm glad I posted the question because the answers aren't what I expected. I'm thinking a tank between 50 and 90 gallons with an internal overflow and sump. I want to do this properly-I don't think you can create a half assed ecosystem and be successful- we are raising living things after all. It's an expensive hobby and before I commit to it, I want to do as much research as possible so that it will grow with me. So it seems it is best to buy the best quality equipment that is affordable for me and preferably new (at least in the beginning) as I wouldn't have the experience to know if something isn't working properly if I had purchased used . Any other comments would be appreciated.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Here is the small trick

you will get 50 and in a few months will want a bigger tank - 90. The equipment requirements are very close, but stuff from 50 will not perfectly "fit" to 90

By using almost all standard tanks, I think that 120G (48x*24*x24) is perfect size.

It is almost the same foot print as 90 g (48x*18*x24), but here is very important 6" difference.

The 24" deep will make huge difference in landscaping. coral placement and overall view of the tank. and there will be not big monetary difference in equipment

you can replace broken skimmer. light , etc, but replace leaking marine tank is not easy task.

I personally, would never use old tank bigger than 40g

always try to buy drilled tank. You can get not drilled and try to find "drillers' here, but they will not return money, if tank will get cracked.

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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

Visit stores and hobbyists tanks, you will find a lot of common denominators, you will find best equipment at the smaller stores rather than big box, 
Welcome to a great hobby.


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## Vinoy Thomas (Jan 4, 2013)

I got a 90g for sale fully plumbed, drilled, with overflow and stand. I bought everything I have used, haven't had a problem yet with second-hand goods.

Let me know if you're interested though! You can find my ad in the hardware and dry goods section in buy and sell.


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## notclear (Nov 5, 2011)

If your space can place a 72"x24"x24" tank and your budget is ok, then this is one of the best tank sizes in my opinon.


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## Thoreffex (Dec 31, 2013)

What you need to do is think of what you want to keep. Larger is better, nanos are a lot of work. Sps require more equipment than softies and lps corals and fish only tanks. The basics you will need would be a tank, stand, salt, light, heater, circulation pump, and a skimmer(hang-on-back). On the other hand for convenience an auto top off, ro unit, some kind of reef keeper, sump, etc... and the list goes on. It all depends on your budget, buying things piece by peice add up fast but a lot of things come with warranties. buying a used set up can save you some money if you can find someone who just wants out, but you could also be buying someone's problems. I would get something you would be happy with or you will always be thinking about an upgrade. I guess the thing you need to know is you get what you pay for.


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## FrankS (Dec 11, 2013)

notclear- your tank is incredible...something to aspire to. Thanks Vinoy Thomas for the info on your tank but I'm not ready yet to jump in...I have to throw out and move stuff in my house to make it work properly and need to know a hell of a lot more (and of course my wife has to agree!). Sig - the suggestion of the 120G is one that I haven't looked at although it had been suggested to me that 24" is far better than 18". Thanks for the info


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

hey dude, I think the slow go is the way to go me thinks. I think the first you should get are an RO system and rocks for your tank - get more than you think you'll need (i.e. if you're thinking of a 60G, get 80lbs). best thing to do with rocks is to cure them, for 2-3 months with RO water, then keep them in salt water and let them get "live" slow and naturally. RO systems are pretty cheap online - you can buy them on Ebay from MAXwater and Aquasafecanada. I found ebay prices from these guys to be cheaper than their website prices.

You can get a quality skimmer second hand, along with other stuff like powerheads, reactors etc. This forum is best for that. lights - get new LEDs. they are reasonably priced, and cheaper to run then T5s (don't buy T5 fixtures used unless the reflector is flawless. otherwise it's useless). And yeah get a great condition second tank. 

This hobby is fun for all the stuff I've been learning so enjoy the journey. good luck and happy collecting!


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## goffebeans (Jul 23, 2007)

Bayinaung said:


> hey dude, I think the slow go is the way to go me thinks. I think the first you should get are an RO system and rocks for your tank - get more than you think you'll need (i.e. if you're thinking of a 60G, get 80lbs). best thing to do with rocks is to cure them, for 2-3 months with RO water, then keep them in salt water and let them get "live" slow and naturally. RO systems are pretty cheap online - you can buy them on Ebay from MAXwater and Aquasafecanada. I found ebay prices from these guys to be cheaper than their website prices.
> 
> You can get a quality skimmer second hand, along with other stuff like powerheads, reactors etc. This forum is best for that. lights - get new LEDs. they are reasonably priced, and cheaper to run then T5s (don't buy T5 fixtures used unless the reflector is flawless. otherwise it's useless). And yeah get a great condition second tank.
> 
> This hobby is fun for all the stuff I've been learning so enjoy the journey. good luck and happy collecting!


a little rant but I personally found new LEDs to be worst investment. Second hand is alright if you want to tinker around and try one out. The pace at which the technology advances results in brutal depreciation. Most people will never reach the breakeven point of their LEDs vs other T5 / MH lights as they'll move on to the next best thing / shutdown their tank / or the lights burn out well before their life expectancy.

There's not that large of a difference in energy savings, in heat yes, energy.. not so much. I.E. to cover a 120gallon, you'd need two ecotechs at 150w each = 300watts vs a 6 bulb 48" ATI = ~ 330w. Where you'll start seeing savings is vs the larger MH bulbs that people were previously running. 250w - 400w Metal halides.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

and the final advice - before accepting advice from anybody try to find out images of their current or former tanks.  probably they never had any 

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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*advice on tank*

hey there and congrats on the choice to do a salt tank ..
as some of the previous posters have mentioned first and foremost u need to decide on what tank u want and where it will be ... personally if the same footprint of the 50 then go with the 90 ...if for some reason u want to keep it small then stick with what u want , as long as u wont change your mind a month in ..
when u buy equipment chk out the sellers feed back and price out the used equipment and make sure that its not close to what it will cost u for new .
don't b e afraid to ask questions ..... a drilled tank is much better then a overflow but its all about what u want ...
leds and lights try to get to places where the lights are on display so u can see the coloration ......several stores and members have some really nice light set ups so see if they will let u see the lights .
good luck and look forward to hearing your next step
its very exciting once u figure out your tank


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

goffebeans said:


> a little rant but I personally found new LEDs to be worst investment. Second hand is alright if you want to tinker around and try one out. The pace at which the technology advances results in brutal depreciation. Most people will never reach the breakeven point of their LEDs vs other T5 / MH lights as they'll move on to the next best thing / shutdown their tank / or the lights burn out well before their life expectancy.
> 
> There's not that large of a difference in energy savings, in heat yes, energy.. not so much. I.E. to cover a 120gallon, you'd need two ecotechs at 150w each = 300watts vs a 6 bulb 48" ATI = ~ 330w. Where you'll start seeing savings is vs the larger MH bulbs that people were previously running. 250w - 400w Metal halides.


Sorry to hear that your experience has not worked out for you geoff. 
with LED lights you have to make sure you do your research thoroughly, and also see what they are like. there are different things a light can achieve - 1) grow corals 2) give the best flourescence. That's a distinction that most people don't make when looking for lights.

I will respectfully disagree that new LEDs are worst investment. Not when you research before you buy - see them first. Some here have bought expensive LEDs and then find out they are either not adequate for their tanks or have "disco" effect. we are having a discussion on LEDs in the other thread. I think I pointed out two lights that have disco effect. You do need high power LED lights to cover your tank effectively. A small LED light fixture isn't going to replace a huge 8 bulb 48" T5. know your tank and your lights.

LEDs (if you got the right one for you) over the lifetime of the fixture will save you money. while many are designed to have 50,000 hours of use, let's give LED lights 5 years. let's compare two "higher end" lights, one ATI T5 and one ecotech (both priced form marine depot) both capable of growing SPS:
ecotech radioXR30W gen3 - $649 - that's good for a 36" SPS tank.
ATI 36" fixtures - let's just go with 6 bulb one for now - $609+ ATI bulbs ($30x6=180) = 789 initial investment
9 bulb changes over 5 years = 9x$180=$1,620
life time cost over 5 yrs= $789+1620=$2,409
life time cost of Radion LED over 5 yrs = $649.

you can't compare the total cost difference. So do your research, know them well, learn from other people's lessons.


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## goffebeans (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm looking at it from a perspective of a new hobbyist

Tank size plays a significant factor. LEDs are definitely more cost effective with smaller tanks, the sweet point for T5s tend to be 4ft tanks while at the same time the wallet breaking point for many hobbyist.

By buying new LEDs you're paying the premium to be an early adopter, which isn't the best idea for someone just coming in. Initial cost $1300 + tax = $1469. If I decide to sell it tomorrow, it's almost certain that I won't recoup the tax and most people who can afford LEDs won't even bother to take the risk of buying used to save a few dollars.

With T5/MH technology being relatively mature products, I can buy one, use it and if I decide to leave the hobby in a year or two, I can sell it back for about the same price. They're terrible value to buy brand new. 
Essentially I'm out the cost of 6 bulbs for the year. $120 from NAFB.

We only started seeing LEDs become mainstream about 5 years ago with I believe the PFO Solaris. With technology still being relatively new, there's the risk that the next generation for LEDS or the fixture itself are leaps and bounds above the current generation. It was only a few years ago when we started seeing CREE LEDs start creeping into the hobby. Next thing you know everybody was offering CREE LED units, it was CREE or nothing. Then we started seeing the introduction of dozens of versions of the blue/royal blue/white LEDs some with more usable spectrums than others.
People weren't seeing good growth/coverage/disco ball effect with those units, so we started to see a diversification of products. We saw the development and introduction of in no specific order: fixtures with different group/spacing of LEDs, the various addition of different colours or UV LEDs, the introduction of Lenses for better coverage or penetration, dimmable fixtures, controllable fixtures/software, wifi enabled, etc.

In that same time frame we saw what seems like 5 generations of Maxspects (g1, g2, g3, Mazarra, Razor) not including all the pro versions that came in between. Same can be said with the Radion, which came out late 2011 which we've subsequently seen multiple pro versions and 3 generations now.

I have a Vertex Illumina that I'm playing with now, Its about 4 years old. I sold my T5 unit to cover most of the cost of the unit, I paid about 20% of the original retail price of the unit. I also bought a pair of new G2 Maxspect units before I eventually switched to T5s for better growth and coverage. I keep those around now since they have practically no value.

Getting back on topic
I would actually first decide on what look you're trying to achieve. That will give you a better idea of what type and size of equipment you'll need. Also important is to take into consideration how it'll look in the room it's going to be in.



Bayinaung said:


> I'd still disagree with this cost factor. cost was the reason I went with LEDs for my main DT instead of T5s. IMO the best T5 bulbs still give the best colour ATM (the one tank at RR). the initial cost for high end T5 lamps are the same as high end LEDs. then you add the bulbs - you should replace T5 bulbs every 6 months, not 12. the replacement bulbs add up.
> 
> and yes you can sell your high end LEDs and get back 75% of the cost - ask robert. he sold his and it went within a few hours.


I decided to just add this to my existing post.
It's not a debate over LEDs vs T5s, it's a debate over buying new/used for a new hobbyist. I just used T5s as an example of a mature/proven product that retains it's value vs LED units.

Robert sold his 8 month old 27" Maxspect r420 for $300
27" r420r retails for $540 + tax = 610.20. $300 = 49%
If I get it on sale at 20% off. 432 + tax 488.16. $300 = 61%
If I get it on sale at 20% off and pay no tax $432. $300 = 69%
If I can buy it new for $400 vs $300, I'd likely just buy new to get the warranty.

oh and another tip. If you're buying new. Many credit cards, even basic ones, have free extended warranties up to 1 year and in some instances insures your purchase from physical loss or damage for 3 months.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

goffebeans said:


> By buying new LEDs you're paying the premium to be an early adopter, which isn't the best idea for someone just coming in. Initial cost $1300 + tax = $1469. If I decide to sell it tomorrow, it's almost certain that I won't recoup the tax and most people who can afford LEDs won't even bother to take the risk of buying used to save a few dollars.


I'd still disagree with this cost factor. cost was the reason I went with LEDs for my main DT instead of T5s. IMO the best T5 bulbs still give the best colour ATM (the one tank at RR). the initial cost for high end T5 lamps are the same as high end LEDs. then you add the bulbs - you should replace T5 bulbs every 6 months, not 12. the replacement bulbs add up.

and yes you can sell your high end LEDs and get back 75% of the cost - ask robert. he sold his and it went within a few hours.

second thing with T5s is the reflector, and the Ballasts. BOTH deteriorates in a few years. replacing those reflectors and ballasts are quite a significant sum of money. If you have to replace both, its the cost of a new fixture. That's why I CRINGE to buy second hand T5 units, even if they are ATI.

thus the cost factor is significantly higher with T5s. for a new hobbyist with limited budgets (as this guy seems to be), proven current generation LEDs are the lowest cost risk with high resale value.

do your research ask questions here and take the plunge.  don't be afraid to make mistakes, you'll have heart breaks, that's part of reefing hobby's learning process, as I'm learning


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## damsel_den (Oct 31, 2011)

I would buy over time , or research as much as possible and buy a complete system as close as possible to what you want and upgrade the things you don't like over time.

First system I bought was a pos.
I was stupid , didn't research , didn't look at forums and thought I was getting the best system ever(the guy was a good sales man too)...
I tried to live with it for a few years but it was a hassle
I have not one part of that system left...not even the live rock..

Next system I was going to get custom made ..
Then a forum member had a tank (just tank and sump) almost the exact dimensions I was going to have made..so I jumped on it.

I bought everything for it (some new ,some used) to make a clean set up that I enjoy(I can't say I enjoyed my last one... It was nothing but a headache)
It's a clean set up, it's got no wires hanging in it, it's dead silent .
And I did it within reasonable cost. 

I have no problem buying used stuff as long as it's for a good cost and not going to screw me over if it craps out.


I'd also stay away from buying tanks with live stock unless it's something you want or if you know you can take it to a store on your way back with it. 
Catching fish like a damsel or something you don't want later on is just a headache


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

damsel_den said:


> Catching fish like a damsel or something you don't want later on is just a headache


lol two thumbs up!

or you can catch fish like this guy:


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## FrankS (Dec 11, 2013)

So taking all the info provided I've got a few more questions along the same lines. Which tank size would be better not withstanding Sig's suggestion of the 120 gallon?
75 gallon 48 x 18 x 20 or 90 gallon 48 x 18 x 24. What does the reduced height for the 75 gallon compared with the 90 impact? Along the same lines what is the benefit of going longer; from 36" to 48".


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## Norco (Jan 25, 2014)

FrankS said:


> So taking all the info provided I've got a few more questions along the same lines. Which tank size would be better not withstanding Sig's suggestion of the 120 gallon?
> 75 gallon 48 x 18 x 20 or 90 gallon 48 x 18 x 24. What does the reduced height for the 75 gallon compared with the 90 impact? Along the same lines what is the benefit of going longer; from 36" to 48".


Here is my opinion and you can do what you want with it... 

You said cost is a consideration and although I don't know what your budget is, I can tell you that a big system with sump and great components will probably cost more than what you think, as little things that you don't know you need, but you do, will all add up at the end. This is why many people recommend buying things slowly as you'll have more budget to spend on the right equipment and also more time to research what you're buying. The problem with this for a newbie is that it's very hard to know which direction to go for, or what specifically is best for you, if you don't have any first hand experience to begin with. Take my word as a newbie that you will be disappointed with some of the decisions you'll make, no matter how much research you do. You don't know what you want until you try things out. In some extreme cases people even redo the whole thing since that's the only way to make the changes and improve their system to their liking, and it seems this happens quite often in this hobby. So although a bigger tank is obviously easier to run successfully long term, because of the larger volume of water, but many people will tell you that the bigger tanks do require more hours of work at the end, and the sweet spot of balancing those two factors is probably the 40G breeder. If you take this route, everything except the tank and the stand could be used for your 120 gallon which you'll inevitably want, so it's not a money losing decision if you do it right. This way the smaller tank becomes an experiment, a learning tool and most importantly something to look at and enjoy while you research for the bigger tank. This way you'll have the energy and the will to spend all those hours on research for your bigger setup and you won't be rushed. Check out this tank, you see you could go sumpless and skimmerless like that on your smaller setup and still do very well if you take things slow and don't overstock. This way you'll save lots of money, which could be spend on getting better equipments (better refractometer, test kits, LEDs, ro/di unit, wavemaker, controller, etc...) which will be all used on the bigger tank when the time comes. It all depends what your budget is, but if it's not much then this is definitely something to consider. Also, you could go smaller than 40 if you have to, and don't let people scare you away, a small tank will teach you everything you need to know and it will be there to be enjoyed, while you plan the next big step.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

FrankS said:


> So taking all the info provided I've got a few more questions along the same lines. Which tank size would be better not withstanding Sig's suggestion of the 120 gallon?
> 75 gallon 48 x 18 x 20 or 90 gallon 48 x 18 x 24. What does the reduced height for the 75 gallon compared with the 90 impact? Along the same lines what is the benefit of going longer; from 36" to 48".


it is personal preferences, but

reduced high makes tank ugly with limited view, because of the huge top black trim.

Longer tank brings more possibilities for landscaping and at the same time you can use 36" light on the 48 tank.

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Norco said:


> you won't be rushed. Check out this tank, you see you could go sumpless and skimmerless like that on your smaller setup and still do very well if you take things slow and don't overstock. This way you'll save lots of money, which could be spend on getting better equipments (better refractometer, test kits, LEDs, ro/di unit, wavemaker, controller, etc...) which will be all used on the bigger tank when the time comes. It all depends what your budget is, but if it's not much then this is definitely something to consider. Also, you could go smaller than 40 if you have to, and don't let people scare you away, a small tank will teach you everything you need to know and it will be there to be enjoyed, while you plan the next big step.


for sure you can run sumpless and skimmerless, assuming you know what are you doing. This guy has many years of experience before he started this tank.

and do not be naive about cost for the maintaining the tank in the link you provided.

To run this tank will cost you the same or even more than 100g with sump and skimmer. For sure initial cost will be cheaper

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## damsel_den (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree with sig on this ,
My sump less tank cost me more.. Everything from salt to time (time is money) 
I was always doing water changes ect.
And being new it was a headache and I'm surprised I stuck with the hobby...
It didn't seem like a hobby, it seemed like a job (ok maybe not that bad..but comparing to my current set up it was)

I'd much rather be able to spend my time checking out Lfs instead of doing water changes and trying to maintain my water quality.


Plus a lot of people on this forum are willing to drill tanks for a case if beer or there's drilled tanks available ...and you can pick up a sump or a tank to be used as a sump cheap..so cost wise it's really not much more.


If it was me picking between a 75 and a 90...
I'd go for the 90... The extra few inches tall will make it more aesthetically appealing


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

I prefer the shallow looking tanks again this is a preference thing. But the 90 vs 75 is 20% more water volume and more volume means more stability.


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