# Lake Malawi Cichlids. Worth a Look!



## AquariAM

I notice there are very few people here who keep Mbuna, so I wanted to write a quick blurb in their favour, because everyone should check them out at least once.

Mbuna are a group of cichlids that come from Lake Malawi in East Africa. The lake contains literally hundreds of species of cichlid, all of which are believed to have diverged from a single common ancestor. The lake also contains other groups of cichlids: Haplochromines and Aulonocara (Peacocks). Mbuna are typically most affordable and are incredibly varied in their coloration, habits, and disposition.

There is a large community of people in the GTA who keep and breed lake malawi cichlids and they can be had at very low prices- mbuna especially. pricenetwork.ca's aquarium classifieds is a place to look. If you prefer a retail environment, Finatics in Scarborough specializes mainly in Malawi cichlids.

Generally, Mbuna are extremely robust, hardy, tolerant of a relatively wide pH and hardness range, and are strikingly colored and patterned. Care and research must be put into the type and number of fish chosen, but otherwise you're generally set with a bunch of rockwork and a bottle of New Life Spectrum cichlid formula which will work fine for carnivorous/omnivorous/vegetarian malawi alike.

The lake has a pH in the low 8 range. There are several easy ways to adjust the pH of Toronto water to match but this is not critical to keeping these fish happy.

Though they have a reputation for being very aggressive, if you mix the correct species and keep them properly, they are not any more of a terror than tiger barbs, and they are not difficult to keep healthy. You won't find more strikingly colorful fish that are so undemanding, affordable, and easy to keep.









A cheap bag of sand and some rocks will make an ideal aquarium for mbuna. Total cost for substrate and decor can be as low as $30


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## bae

What species is the fish in the last picture?


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## Riceburner

yep. I like em...


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## AquariAM

bae said:


> What species is the fish in the last picture?











_Labidochromis hongi_ "Red Top"

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1911


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## Tropicana

That red top is truly amazing!, my red tops were not half as beautiful. Very nice AM!.


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## AquariAM

Tropicana said:


> That red top is truly amazing!, my red tops were not half as beautiful. Very nice AM!.


That isn't my fish. 
I agree though it's excellent. Someone did a good job.


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## Tropicana

ahh haha. cool cool


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## TBemba

I agree,

Lake Malawi cichlids are very colourful easy to breed and always active. They are a very forgiving fish that can take various water perimeters. A lot of people in Ontario breed them. They do very well in our water.

I believe some of Finatics and BA's stock both Lake Malawi and Tanganyika are provided by local basement breeders.


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## AquariAM

TBemba said:


> I agree,
> 
> Lake Malawi cichlids are very colourful easy to breed and always active. They are a very forgiving fish that can take various water perimeters. A lot of people in Ontario breed them. They do very well in our water.
> 
> I believe some of Finatics and BA's stock both Lake Malawi and Tanganyika are provided by local basement breeders.


90 something percent of Finatics. A lot of BA's stuff is pond bred.


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## TBemba

AquariAM said:


> 90 something percent of Finatics. A lot of BA's stuff is pond bred.


I knew Finatics was a high percent (but not that high) 
BA's depending on the store's location I guess maybe not TO. But of those two lakes a lot of the common types are from local breeders down south of you Northerner's


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## RaidZero

Fewer people keep Malawi cichlids? When I started in the hobby 5 years ago everyone seem to have some.


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## AquariAM

RaidZero said:


> Fewer people keep Malawi cichlids? When I started in the hobby 5 years ago everyone seem to have some.


Lots of people do I just meant on this forum there are few.


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## Cory

Malawi cichlids are one of the better choices for starter Africans. They are generally undemanding and easier to breed than guppies IMO. They have a panoply of colours unmatched by any other fresh body of water in the world (although Victoria, naturally, has more vibrant, stunning fish it has far less variety in colour pattern than malawi, at least the species remaining in the hobby/wild do.) Most Malawis reach a uniform size which means mixing and matching is easy but they are mostly also closely related which means hybrids are a dime a dozen and at least 50% of the yellow labs I see around GTA stores are obvious hybrids (to me) and look like crud when they mature. If you just want substantial fish that are extremely colourful Malawi is the place to go though.


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## AquariAM

* yellow labs I see around GTA stores are obvious hybrids (to me) and look like crud when they mature. *

You're my new best friend. There's a freakin pandemic of hybrid labs. I got so upset about it trying to find a pure group this spring I got out of that species.


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## KhuliLoachFan

I have a 75g with yellow labs, red by reds, and p. socoloffi (snow white). I also have two aulonocara sp. in there. They all look fabulous. 

The red x reds I have are a nice version of the aquarium strain. Very nice color. Some people prefer the version where the males are blue and the females are orange. I have seen both about on PN. 


W


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## AquariAM

I thought you had the estherae and the labs in seperate tanks. Are they getting along ok being so big when they were put together? 

A friend and I had issues trying to introduce adult estherae into a tank of adult labs about a year ago.


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## KhuliLoachFan

They were separate, but everybody was hiding too much. So I moved them back in. And now everybody gets along great, and I see all my pretty fishies more.

http://nospisciculi.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-75-gallon-malawi-cichlid-tank.html

W


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## cichlidsnorth

I still keep a few mbuna around(3 tanks) they are cool fish to watch colony interaction. I ussually keep a dominant male with a sub dominate and 6 or more females to spread aggression around. I pull the odd bred female out to raise tohe eggs but for the most part I let them spit in the tank. I have moved more to haps and frontosas than the mbuna but I will always keep a few mbuna around!


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## PACMAN

I have malawi cichlids. I should take some pictures asap. 

what is the easiest malawi to breed?

I dont have any pairs as of now


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## AquariAM

none of them are non-easy to breed. As long as you take good care of them they're harder to _not_ breed. Mostly, they do not really pair. It's a group thing. One male and a large group of females. So you'd buy, for example, one nice male peacock of X species and like five or six females of that species.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Yep. The only Cichlid easier, in my opinion, is the Convict (Archocentrus Nigrofasciatus, south american).

W


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## cichlidsnorth

do to the fact they are so easy to breed we end up with a lot of hybrids and poor quality fish in the hobby. SO IF u are going to save the fry from your mbuna please do us all a favour and make sure that u dont have 2 or more different types that will hybredize and also make sure u have exellent quality stock, if u dont, then just let them spit the fry in the tank for free food!!!


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## Joeee

cichlidsnorth said:


> do to the fact they are so easy to breed we end up with a lot of hybrids and poor quality fish in the hobby. SO IF u are going to save the fry from your mbuna please do us all a favour and make sure that u dont have 2 or more different types that will hybredize and also make sure u have exellent quality stock, if u dont, then just let them spit the fry in the tank for free food!!!


Funny, because my hybrid flowerhorn that I bought for $6 died eating a hybrid convict that I was given.

The thing is though, I think hybrids should have a completely different section in a LFS. Like they have a good 90% of their livestock on the "non-hybrid" and the remaining 5% in a separate "hybrid" corner. I don't understand why people buy hybrids, it's like buying a can of coke and nestea and then mixing them, or even worse, buying it mixed together already.


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## KhuliLoachFan

We could have a sign over one half that says "Deez Fish Is Nawt Miscegenated", and over another "Deez Fish is Miscegenated".

Grinning, running, and ducking...


W


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## AquariAM

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Yep. The only Cichlid easier, in my opinion, is the Convict (Archocentrus Nigrofasciatus, south american).
> 
> W


Convicts are central american as is the entire cryptoheros genus.


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## Ciddian

Kay...Lets start over.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Awesome. Deja-non-vu. It's a sign that somebody modified the Matrix. 

W


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## AquariAM

No, that's when you see a black fish, then you see another black fish, but you're not sure if it's the same black fish.


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## Philip.Chan.92

Planning to get Pseudotropheus saulosi, one or two males and 4-6 females


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## AquariAM

Two males won't work. Just 1. This is a viable setup though.


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## PACMAN

I think I have this in my tank. He's one of the 2 fish that are assh*les in my tank, always picking on the rest....


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## AquariAM

Not knowing what kind of fish you have is viciously frowned upon.


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## PACMAN

I have a Venustus, a frontosa, and a red zebra. Oh and a Pl*co and a kuhli loach.

unfortunately I do not know what exact cichlid my last one is. I should post pictures to confirm. It does look like this saulosi, but with less blue, and more black.







, 
but not as black as this one. but the face definitely looks like this one!


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## AquariAM

That's a really awful place for the pleco. Doubly so for the kuhli. Get a proper combination of mbuna and use synodontis cats as your bottom feeders.


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## PACMAN

Had the Kuhli since the tank was born 2.5 years ago, same deal with the pl*co. No problems. Even added a second much larger pl*co 1 year ago from my cousin's small tank. That one died unfortunately, but due to natural causes.

The pl*co is my algae eater moreso than my bottom feeder, but yes if i lost the kuhli and pl*co, I would switch to the cats


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## Philip.Chan.92

AquariAM said:


> Two males won't work. Just 1. This is a viable setup though.


Alright so 1 male. What is the MAXIMUM amount of females I can have?


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Alright so 1 male. What is the MAXIMUM amount of females I can have?


5 or 6 its a small tank they get quite big


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## Philip.Chan.92

AquariAM said:


> 5 or 6 its a small tank they get quite big


Where can I get saulosi, place with good quality and price?


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Where can I get saulosi, place with good quality and price?


http://www.pricenetwork.ca/ddeal/STRATHROY_FISH_AND_SNAKES_Fish_and_Snakes_For_Sale-280088.html

Just make a 'looking for' post on pricenetwork.

Remember Mbuna need tonnes of caves as well as open space to swim in.


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> 5 or 6 its a small tank they get quite big


I think the saulosi are considered to be a dwarf mbuna because it max out at 3" to 4".


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> I think the saulosi are considered to be a dwarf mbuna because it max out at 3" to 4".


 I've seen freak monster saulosi. There's a guy on cichlid forum with some that are over 5 for the whole group. No idea how he did it.


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> I've seen freak monster saulosi. There's a guy on cichlid forum with some that are over 5 for the whole group. No idea how he did it.


I use to breed lots of these fishy and some males do hit 5" but not the females. I am wondering if his saulosi have some mix in it


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> I use to breed lots of these fishy and some males do hit 5" but not the females. I am wondering if his saulosi have some mix in it


What Mbuna doesn't these days


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> What Mbuna doesn't these days


I have to agree with you on this one


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## KhuliLoachFan

Gotta get that Kuhli out of that Cichlid tank, pacman. Bad show, old chap.

 Different tank, or give him to me. I'll give you a cichlid of some kind in trade.

W


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## PACMAN

lol he loves it in my tank!

I thought I lost him after a few months, but then a year later i saw him under some rock!


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## AquariAM

PACMAN said:


> lol he loves it in my tank!


You self proclaimed fish psychologists crack me up. You didn't see it for a year. Translation- it f*cking hates it in there. Kuhlis need large groups and a very peaceful tank.

 x100


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## Philip.Chan.92

AquariAM said:


> You self proclaimed fish psychologists crack me up. You didn't see it for a year. Translation- it f*cking hates it in there. Kuhlis need large groups and a very peaceful tank.
> 
> x100


I was gonna be nice about this but bluntness does work I guess 

+1 AquariAM


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## Philip.Chan.92

I am setting up my Pseudotropheus Saulosi tank this summer so here is what my rock formation looks like so far, took me about 10 minutes. Still a work in progress. I will be turning on the light for 12+ hours per day to encourage black algae growth so these rocks will be black...eventually. So just look at it in terms of sizes and structure  Any input is welcome


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I am setting up my Pseudotropheus Saulosi tank this summer so here is what my rock formation looks like so far, took me about 10 minutes. Still a work in progress. I will be turning on the light for 12+ hours per day to encourage black algae growth so these rocks will be black...eventually. So just look at it in terms of sizes and structure  Any input is welcome


Don't use those rocks. You don't have a big enough tank. You want to maximize your cave real estate and minimize the amount of space you take up with them. You need room for the fish to move around. Get something flat and workable like credit flag from Betz.










I'm sure they'll have something similar in another color. You can usually use a hammer and break apart these 'flag' type stones into whatever (approximate) shapes you need to build cave structures. This particular one I'm using is silica/quartz based but they have several. Dark color, light color, thinner (work more caves in), thicker, etc. Many of them will increase hardness and pH but that won't matter for your mbuna tank.


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## Philip.Chan.92

Those slabs are just as deep, I guess I can hammer them down to size but the depth of the rocks I used is around the length of a fish 3-4" so the fish can actually fit into the caves comfortably and have room to turn around.


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Those slabs are just as deep, I guess I can hammer them down to size but the depth of the rocks I used is around the length of a fish 3-4" so the fish can actually fit into the caves comfortably and have room to turn around.


You can't make enough caves unless you use a flat stone. The caves should also be seperate compartments if possible. Impossible with round stones in your footprint.


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## Philip.Chan.92

How many caves for 1 male and 4 females? Are females aggressive to each other? Or it's usually just the male who is the aggressor? I have pretty flat rocks, many different shapes and sizes, i'll make a few more structures and run them by you.


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> How many caves for 1 male and 4 females? Are females aggressive to each other? Or it's usually just the male who is the aggressor? I have pretty flat rocks, many different shapes and sizes, i'll make a few more structures and run them by you.


six females. At least. Seven if it'll fit. The males are very aggressive spawners.

If you have eight fish have ten caves. You want as peaceful of an environment as possible.


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## Philip.Chan.92

I can make 10 caves, I have tons of rocks and many flat ones, they aren't as flat as the slabs of course but enough to be stacked. Are these fish active and aggressive to the point of knocking over rocks? Like would they chase each other into the caves (like both fish go into the cave?). Also would it be a good idea to silicone some of the rocks together? Not as a whole structure but 3-4 rocks siliconed together? Should the rocks be pressing on the back of the aquarium?


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I can make 10 caves, I have tons of rocks and many flat ones, they aren't as flat as the slabs of course but enough to be stacked. Are these fish active and aggressive to the point of knocking over rocks? Like would they chase each other into the caves (like both fish go into the cave?). Also would it be a good idea to silicone some of the rocks together? Not as a whole structure but 3-4 rocks siliconed together? Should the rocks be pressing on the back of the aquarium?


Nothing should ever press on the sides of the tank. They can touch gently. No need to silicone. They can not knock anything over that weighs more than about 400g for a 4 or 5" mbuna. If you just make a proper rock wall of uniform rock it will give you the most open space.

http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/img09/12_African_Cichlid_Tank_2.jpg

Make one kind of like this but prettier. No need for the wall to extend more than five inches from the back of the tank, leaving seven inches open to swim infront of it. I suggest one kind and color of rock (not like this guy has done) because otherwise, IMO, it does not look as good.

You should check out the credit valley flagstone @ Betz. $15 will get you more than enough to do your tank


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## Philip.Chan.92

I might have to silicone some rocks, just as a precaution, it's not necessary but I might accidentally knock something over while cleaning the tank. As for lighting, I have 6500K daylight for plants, some people say that 10 000K is better for malawi tank? What do you think about this? Vals are the only plants that are native to this area, what kind of vals though? Corkscrew val would work in this setup? Only planning to put a few in the tank. How long will it take for black algae to cover all the rocks? High aeration promotes algae growth too right?

Alright, so recap of everything to follow:
The structure has to stand on it's own. 
10 Caves for 8 fish
7 females and 1 Male
12 hours of lighting for black algae to grow well on rocks

I want my rocks to be black like this http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/img09/02_Malawi_Cichlid_Tank_1.jpg, i believe it's a styrofoam back but is it possible for rocks to attain that level of black?


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I might have to silicone some rocks, just as a precaution, it's not necessary but I might accidentally knock something over while cleaning the tank. As for lighting, I have 6500K daylight for plants, some people say that 10 000K is better for malawi tank? What do you think about this? Vals are the only plants that are native to this area, what kind of vals though? Corkscrew val would work in this setup? Only planning to put a few in the tank. How long will it take for black algae to cover all the rocks? High aeration promotes algae growth too right?
> 
> Alright, so recap of everything to follow:
> The structure has to stand on it's own.
> 10 Caves for 8 fish
> 7 females and 1 Male
> 12 hours of lighting for black algae to grow well on rocks
> 
> I want my rocks to be black like this http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/img09/02_Malawi_Cichlid_Tank_1.jpg, i believe it's a styrofoam back but is it possible for rocks to attain that level of black?












About like that.

The background thing is nice. The only problem is that everything you put in the tank takes up space. Anything that's just for looks but will take even an inch away all the way across the back is not going to work. It's a small tank. It's three feet long but it's not tall. You need all the open space you can get.

Just use a black background. Eventually the algae will grow over it reasonably well. The only thing I can think of that you could get away with would be to use the thinnest piece of flagstone you can find, like 1/2", and try to make a few pieces to make a textured background to stand up against the back behind your rockwork. I don't like the way that looks but you can do it. Just don't take up too much space. Remember when you're making your caves that an adult saulosi is about 4" long, occasionally more, about 1.5" tall with fins slightly extended, and about 1.5-2" wide with fins partially extended. It'll need about it's own body length to be able to turn around inside a cave if it wants to. Otherwise once the fish are large enough they will have to back into caves or head in and back out, at which point re-scaping would be necessary and a PITA. You'd also loose the continuity and look of your algae growth. You can encourage algae to grow faster by adding a little bit of pottasium phosphate from a plant food store. Dosing would be a Q for the plant forum specific to your situation.

As per lighting I don't like how 10,000K looks. The fish need to see. They aren't going to complain if you choose 3500, 6500, or 10,000K. Algae growth wise, again, I really don't know what grows algae best... I grew that algae with one 6500k bulb and one 2500ish K bulb (coralife 6500 and colormax T5)


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## dl88dl

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I am setting up my Pseudotropheus Saulosi tank this summer so here is what my rock formation looks like so far, took me about 10 minutes. Still a work in progress. I will be turning on the light for 12+ hours per day to encourage black algae growth so these rocks will be black...eventually. So just look at it in terms of sizes and structure  Any input is welcome


Those rocks are good for SA & CA. For Africans it is better to use Kingston weather rock


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## Philip.Chan.92

The look of the rock won't matter since the algae is gonna cover it anyways, I'm just putting some limestone in there to help make the pH higher.


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## carbonlist

@ Philip

Because you have such a small tank, I highly recommend keeping a tank without any rocks or diy backgrounds. Mbuna become extremely aggressive when they want to establish territories or breed. Try to keep the tank only with gravel, maybe a couple amazon swords and hornwort. Rocks will only make it worst if you're planning on overstocking. 

This is what I did for my juvie/adult aquarium:
xp3 filter
30 gallon tank
black substrate
no rocks
hornwort
I kept over 30 (3") cichlids in there. Barely any fins were nipped...or if they were, they recovered quickly.

pH 7.4 (tap)
nitrates <5ppm
nitrite 0


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## Philip.Chan.92

30 3-4" in a 30 gallon? That seems a little hectic. Overstocking is a way to limit aggression towards each individual, just not sure if this is a good idea.


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## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> @ Philip
> 
> Because you have such a small tank, I highly recommend keeping a tank without any rocks or diy backgrounds. Mbuna become extremely aggressive when they want to establish territories or breed. Try to keep the tank only with gravel, maybe a couple amazon swords and hornwort. Rocks will only make it worst if you're planning on overstocking.
> 
> This is what I did for my juvie/adult aquarium:
> xp3 filter
> 30 gallon tank
> black substrate
> no rocks
> hornwort
> I kept over 30 (3") cichlids in there. Barely any fins were nipped...or if they were, they recovered quickly.
> 
> pH 7.4 (tap)
> nitrates <5ppm
> nitrite 0


This is a foolish way to keep Mbuna and is not enjoyable for them. An appropriate setup, like what Phillip is after, will result in nearly no aggression, natural behaviour, happy fish, and spawning.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Established wisdom of 99% of the guys out there is that Mbuna, and all rift lake cichlids, need caves and/or broken continuity of vision (you can't see me, I am on other side of obstacle, ergo we are both 'safe'). Caves means: rocks, clay pots on their sides, etc etc. 
Personally, if I was doing a 30g, I would try to make caves without much loss of water volume. So 50% of the 30g being rocks (ergo 15g water) would be bad. So, clay pots. If I had a kiln, I would make fish caves of the sort I have always wanted, out of clay, sculpted to look like rock. But I don't. Better to have healthy fish and some clay pots, than a bare gravel tank, with shredded fins on every single fish.

W


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## Philip.Chan.92

alright so atleast one cave per individual? Getting 1 male and 6 females so minimum 7 caves.


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> alright so atleast one cave per individual? Getting 1 male and 6 females so minimum 7 caves.


More caves. Say you have a sub female and an alpha female who both want the same cave because they just like it better. Fight. Say the male and a female want the same cave. Fight.

10 caves. Always have spares.

I also like to use some water additives for Malawi cichlids and find it makes a huge difference.

I suggest you use SEACHEM MALAWI BUFFER (increases pH to 8 kH to 10) added to the incoming water bucket when you do water changes at a rate of 1/2TSP per 5 Gallons (get some measuring spoons from any cooking or grocery store). Just add it with water conditioner then fill the bucket and it'll mix in.

I also use KENT CICHLID TRACE. This has numerous trace elements and minerals that are not present in tap water which are beneficial to fish.

Both of these products are very useful in my opinion and result in nicer looking fish, reduced stress, and superior formation and color IME.

You can use baking soda in place of the malawi buffer but the malawi buffer's cost works out to about $1/month if you get the big jug and you're really better off with a guaranteed standardized formula that always delivers results. It's also a mix of various carbonate buffers instead of just sodium bicarbonate-- which would also be adding unnecessary (but not harmful) sodium to the water.

So

WATER
Seachem PRIME
Seachem Malawi Buffer (powder)
Kent Cichlid Trace

FOOD DRY (diet based on just saulosi- which are herbivorous)
New Life Spectrum "Cichlid Formula" (Big Als)
Dainichi Veggie FX formula (www.dainichi.com)
(40/60 or 30/70 ratio of both daily. Decrease 40/60>30/70 *decrease NLS* if fish become fat)

OR

New Life Spectrum "Cichlid Formula"
Omega One/Sea Super Kelp Pellets (Finatics)
(ratio as above)

FOOD FROZEN (optional)

Extremely young fish: Frozen Daphnia, 3x weekly, 1 meal

Juvies/adultsMysis Shrimp. 2x weekly. One meal of the day.

I _do not_ like Seachem's trace element formula and strongly suggest against it. It contains a significant amount of fluoride. Toronto tap water already contains more than enough fluoride for whatever (questionable IMO) uses fish could have for it biologically. The Seachem formula also contains a much less complete list of trace elements than the Kent, and is far less concentrated, making it very expensive. I also believe that the Seachem cichlid salt is an unnecessary product.


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## Philip.Chan.92

Thanks so much, I'll print that out for the next time I go fish shopping  still need to clear out current tank though, some interest has been generated but no definite buyers yet.


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## carbonlist

I feel like I got ripped apart by 2 old timers. However, I feel that I'm providing them a perfectly substantial environment. How can you complain when there's food falling from he sky, no need to make friends, and sex all around?


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## KhuliLoachFan

Well, I disagree with aquariam. forget all that additives stuff. Do your water changes, and if you are feeling like it, double them. Do 25% water changes a day if you like. Your fish will thank you. Additives are a dodgy proposition, and in Toronto water, with african cichlids, there is no need for it. The editor of TFH (David E. Boruchowitz) is with me on this one, I'm quoting his opinion word for word, and he's been keeping fish for 50 years. So. Whatever.

W


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## Philip.Chan.92

carbonlist said:


> I feel like I got ripped apart by 2 old timers. However, I feel that I'm providing them a perfectly substantial environment. How can you complain when there's food falling from he sky, no need to make friends, and sex all around?


Ahaha lucky fish, they dont need to go to work and they get everything we work so hard to attain. Well some of their comrades arent treated as well as the fish owned by this community's members. I hear that some malawi tank owners simply overstock to deal with aggression, I don't fully support that method but then again arent these fish in really dense populations in their natural habitat? Like with odessa barbs, people who have 2 of them wake up to dead fish but when you get a big school, no one member gets harassed too much. Just my little input, please dont hurt me  What do you guys thing? *cough AquariAM and Khuli reply nowww!!! cough*


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## Riceburner

the more caves the better. I don't do additives. The more consistent the WC the better.


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## TBemba

I prefer to keep them in a tank with several rock pile/caves separated by a little open water.The males then tend to have more territories to fight over. If you have only one continuous rock wall the dominate male will assume the whole tank is his territory.

I would not dismiss carbonlist ideas. I have never tried this with Mbuna's but works well with Tropheus. Tropheus are very aggressive and the less territory markers the better and the large colony and highly density stocking is preferred.


In the end it is what works for you. Somethings work for some fish while others will not. Some things also work for some people and not for others.

I tend to listen to advice and then observe the fish and make changes until it works. flexibility and open minds will advance this hobby


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## KhuliLoachFan

There's nothing wrong with TBemba's overall algorithm, which is one I use for many endeavours:

1. Try something new.
2. Did it work? If not, go back to step 1.

W


----------



## TBemba

KhuliLoachFan said:


> There's nothing wrong with TBemba's overall algorithm, which is one I use for many endeavours:
> 
> 1. Try something new.
> 2. Did it work? If not, go back to step 1.
> 
> W


This is the point to the hobby (learn from your mistakes) 
go with your gut feelings

Observe your fish and over time you will be able to see any issues and then make changes if needed.

Fish have a really cool hierarchy system and each group has a unique one. All depending on the dynamics of the group.

I have had alpha females that get male colouring in a Malawi tanks and they seem to prevent breeding not allowing a Male to breed with any females.

I have also seen several males co-exist in one tank with several female. This usually has occurred for me when raising small groups together.

I like to get 12 young fish and raise them together. some times the entire group will work but other times one day Chaos breaks out (Breeding time) then you have to make changes. Remove some males make more hiding places ....


----------



## AquariAM

Riceburner said:


> the more caves the better. I don't do additives. The more consistent the WC the better.


You realize additives can be added consistently


----------



## Riceburner

I would hope you add them consistently. 

This is the other side of the tank. Somewhat open space between. The smallest fry seem to prefer this side, even though the caves are much bigger.









+1 Keep trying and see what works. Hopefully without much loss.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Where do they carry saulosi, no one on pricenetworks, kijiji, craigslist seem to have them. Lucky's? I am gonna go there, aquapets too since it's in the area.


----------



## TBemba

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Where do they carry saulosi, no one on pricenetworks, kijiji, craigslist seem to have them. Lucky's? I am gonna go there, aquapets too since it's in the area.


Post a Looking for saulosi They are out there and are usually up for sale every other month.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

I did, no replies yet, Imma look at some stores and see their average pricing first.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I did, no replies yet, Imma look at some stores and see their average pricing first.


You might want to also consider Pseudotropheus demasoni. I would choose saulosi way over demasoni personally. But you might like them. They are an incredibly aggressive, very active fish. They're also frequently available. You would have to do an either-or sort of thing.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

I personally prefer the more mellow saulosi


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I personally prefer the more mellow saulosi










This guy's 75ish gallon saulosi tank is pretty awesome . He's chosen not to use any caves. It's an option, but the fish do prefer the security of caves. Having none can reduce aggression, but if you have way too many caves for the fish to fight over any specific cave, it achieves a similar purpose. Make sure you avoid rocks with sharp edges, and if you get any, chip them down a bit with a hammer.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

with my small setup, having a surplus of caves is difficult, I will add some rocks and driftwood to break line of sight though. So 1 male and 7 females should be good? Going for the overstocking, they are densely populated in the wild are they not?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> with my small setup, having a surplus of caves is difficult, I will add some rocks and driftwood to break line of sight though. So 1 male and 7 females should be good? Going for the overstocking, they are densely populated in the wild are they not?


No it's not because I've done it in your setup before. I'll do it for you if you want just get the right rocks. I'm telling you after going through 50 different kinds (not literally but you get my point) locally, you can't beat the credit flag stone from Betz. You can do anything you want with it. You can do 15-20 caves no problem.

*No wood* in an african tank unless it's Manzanita. The fish do not need anything that will lower the pH.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Alright no wood. The flagstone looks a little too unnatural to me. I will resort to it if the overstocking method does not work. Anyone know a saulosi breeder?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Alright no wood. The flagstone looks a little too unnatural to me. I will resort to it if the overstocking method does not work. Anyone know a saulosi breeder?


Don't do the overstocking method. It does not look unnatural to use flagstone. Several places feature 'shelving' and crevasse effects very similar to what can be accomplished with good flagstone work. 









You can use little chunks at the bottom to blend into the sand.










then build this up

Eventually the whole thing becomes rather algae covered










and looks quite natural



















Do what's best for the fish. Don't do what 'looks best'.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Don't they become more aggressive if there is territory to be fought over?


----------



## carbonlist

I personally prefer the overstocking method but the use of rocks in a 25 gallon can prevent aggressiveness. What you could do is build rock formations on the two ends and leave open space in the middle. You could use round rocks and this will provide ample space and caves.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> I personally prefer the overstocking method but the use of rocks in a 25 gallon can prevent aggressiveness. What you could do is build rock formations on the two ends and leave open space in the middle. You could use round rocks and this will provide ample space and caves.





Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Don't they become more aggressive if there is territory to be fought over?


Why won't you listen?  
Seven people won't fight over fourteen houses.

While this (see image) works well, the fish prefer a completely enclosed cave system that can only be accessed from one end and has a floor a roof and two walls. You'll get much more attractive fish because they'll be much calmer. I've experimented with this for years and several batches of the same species. A lot of my fish keeping over the years has been focused on habit experimentation and observation more than just having pets.


----------



## carbonlist

well said aquariam...Come to think about it...I think my fish would've enjoyed closed caves much more than being chased out of their open cave from behind.


----------



## AquariAM

carbonlist said:


> well said aquariam...Come to think about it...I think my fish would've enjoyed closed caves much more than being chased out of their open cave from behind.


Im going to make a cave building video  
There's nothing wrong with the way you did it I didn't mean to put you down.


----------



## carbonlist

No offense taken at all. We all appreciate your knowledge in _this_ world.


----------



## TBemba

I have seen breeders use PVC pipe cut and stacked for malawi cichlids. This is not as esthetically pleasing as rocks. But will allow you to provide more hiding places in a smaller aquarium.

I like smooth rocks and pieces of slate and I prefer to use pool filter sand in most cichlid tanks. What about Yellow Tail Acei (Pseudotropheus Acei) ?

I had them breeding like machines in a 30 gallon tank. They are so aggressive for food they almost jump out of the water at feeding time.


----------



## AquariAM

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=ROX.mp4

Quick rock stackumentary


----------



## AquariAM

TBemba said:


> I have seen breeders use PVC pipe cut and stacked for malawi cichlids. This is not as esthetically pleasing as rocks. But will allow you to provide more hiding places in a smaller aquarium.
> 
> I like smooth rocks and pieces of slate and I prefer to use pool filter sand in most cichlid tanks. What about Yellow Tail Acei (Pseudotropheus Acei) ?
> 
> I had them breeding like machines in a 30 gallon tank. They are so aggressive for food they almost jump out of the water at feeding time.


 That fish barely fits in a 55G and will eventually outgrow it. A full grown 6" acei needs a five foot tank to feel comfortable. It will tolerate four but minor aggression should result. This species should not be particularly aggressive for food compared to most Mbuna.


----------



## TBemba

AquariAM said:


> That fish barely fits in a 55G and will eventually outgrow it. A full grown 6" acei needs a five foot tank to feel comfortable. It will tolerate four but minor aggression should result. This species should not be particularly aggressive for food compared to most Mbuna.


You should write a book


----------



## AquariAM

TBemba said:


> You should write a book


  I appreciate that
That website that lists acei as maxing out at 4.5" is wrong.










This guy was over 5 when I sold him

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1460


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

That actually looks much better in video. I will definitely try it out. As for the sloping effect, how far from the front of the tank should I start? Since it will be sloping back, there will still be quite some swimming space in the middle region of the tank and the top. Should I do caves all the way to the top? (how much is flagstone, how much will I need to build say...10 caves in the sloping method? I was recommended to hav 1 male 7 females. Anyone know where I can get some saulosi? Haven't had much luck on pricenetwork or finding any breeders. Anyone in this forum breed or know a breeder?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> That actually looks much better in video. I will definitely try it out. As for the sloping effect, how far from the front of the tank should I start? Since it will be sloping back, there will still be quite some swimming space in the middle region of the tank and the top. Should I do caves all the way to the top? (how much is flagstone, how much will I need to build say...10 caves in the sloping method? I was recommended to hav 1 male 7 females. Anyone know where I can get some saulosi? Haven't had much luck on pricenetwork or finding any breeders. Anyone in this forum breed or know a breeder?


Be patient. The fish will come.

$15 of rock will cover you. Do caves all the way across the back leave about 5" of open sand (so make your bottom layer 7" deep) then 6 then 5 then 4. You don't want to go any less than 4. Remember that even though the cave is four inches from it's door to the back of the tank, since the inside of the cave flares, the fish can sit in a way that even if it is five or six inches, it's entire body will be inside the cave. You don't need more than five layers for eight fish. Aim for as many caves as possible.


----------



## TBemba

AquariAM said:


> I appreciate that
> That website that lists acei as maxing out at 4.5" is wrong.
> 
> This guy was over 5 when I sold him


I find a lot of information on the web has a fudge factor.

Most Malawi and cichlids in general do not have to be max size or fully adult to breed. They can be kept in smaller tanks than recommend as well. I could have been talking about a pair or a trio.....

I wish you would not *assume*


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

as for lighting, 10000K bulbs or 6700K? What brings out the colour of the fish more? I am using Compact Fluorescents.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> as for lighting, 10000K bulbs or 6700K? What brings out the colour of the fish more? I am using Compact Fluorescents.


 6700 is my preference for anything just because it looks natural to me. If you use 10,000 it will be too white in my opinion and the orangey color of the females won't be as striking. A 3000K would make the females look nice but the male's blue wouldn't look right. I think 6700's the best all around choice.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Alright, so the flagstone is sold by the kilos? They come in slabs how big? like can you estimate dimensions?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Alright, so the flagstone is sold by the kilos? They come in slabs how big? like can you estimate dimensions?


Dimensions were in the video my friend. In the first 20 seconds. It's sold by the pound. About .40/lb


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

I will buy the stones and set up the sculpture before buying the fish of course. However, I would like to see if the overstocked method works, if not I will just put in the rock formation right away.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I will buy the stones and set up the sculpture before buying the fish of course. However, I would like to see if the overstocked method works, if not I will just put in the rock formation right away.


Do you want to observe actual saulosi behavior, or do you want mindless zombies doing laps in an empty box. That's what you'll get. See the malawi tank at the Toronto Zoo for reference. Don't overcrowd. It works but you might as well just have danios. You're not going to see anything interesting.


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## Philip.Chan.92

fair enough, I'll have it all setup in a few weeks.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

I recently rescaped my Malawi tank. It's my third time setting it up, and the fish LOVE it. Or rather, I love the increased activity and interest in the tank.
It looks (or the fish look and act) like the best show tanks I have seen. I am amazed. The difference was the addition, and arrangement of enough lava rock and arches of coraline archways (don't know how else to describe them) that created a habitat within the tank. The fish seem to relate to the environment on the basis of the caves, entranceways, and the open water between them. 

I was explaining to someone today, that I think that the neural "wiring" inside the fish, is as messed up by the failure to provide rocks and caves in a useful formation, as the human brain is, by having walls in a house that are not at 90 degrees. In short, we are all off balance, and uneasy, until we can relate to our environment and make sense of it. 

I cannot say there is a method to it, that you can explain in a paragraph. Just that it's worth trying many things, and refining your rockwork until you get it better, better, better. TO a non hobbyist, it must seem so silly all this rearrangement of piles of rock. But to me, it's part of making my display beautiful and my fish happy and active rather than hiding, or manically trying to endlessly escape this rectangular hell in which they are unwillingly and unhappily trapped.

W


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## Philip.Chan.92

Even LFS don't have saulosi, buying african cichlids at most LFS is annoying, they have an "assorted african cichlid section" which is hard for people new to the hobby and don't know how to identify the differences in similar looking species. Someone is apparently gonna have them in 2 weeks so I guess I can wait that long.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Even LFS don't have saulosi, buying african cichlids at most LFS is annoying, they have an "assorted african cichlid section" which is hard for people new to the hobby and don't know how to identify the differences in similar looking species. Someone is apparently gonna have them in 2 weeks so I guess I can wait that long.


Why so impatient? I looked for a fish for seven years once. It took me almost five months to get a fish I have now. It happens.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

lol because my tank is about to be emptied, all my livestock is already sold. Last of it to be picked up next weekend. Maybe put some other fish in there temporarily. Can I keep a pair of adult yellow labs in a 25 gallon maybe a singular male or male+female? A few weeks, nothing too long term. Just to keep the biofilter going


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> lol because my tank is about to be emptied, all my livestock is already sold. Last of it to be picked up next weekend. Maybe put some other fish in there temporarily. Can I keep a pair of adult yellow labs in a 25 gallon maybe a singular male or male+female? A few weeks, nothing too long term. Just to keep the biofilter going


bottle of ammonia. Canadian tire.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Wouldn't mind having some fish in the tank though. It's not just for bio filter, I hate seeing an empty tank, it makes me super anxious. I am getting a bunch of malawis this weekend to get to my uncle, I'll keep the smallest one in my tank temporarily.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Wouldn't mind having some fish in the tank though. It's not just for bio filter, I hate seeing an empty tank, it makes me super anxious.


More anxious than usually?


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

ahahah I guess I am pretty impatient, I am a relentless searcher, when I lock onto something I want, I won't let it go until I get it.  Are saulosi usually this hard to get a hold of?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> ahahah I guess I am pretty impatient, I am a relentless searcher, when I lock onto something I want, I won't let it go until I get it.  Are saulosi usually this hard to get a hold of?


How is getting the fish in two weeks hard to get a hold of?


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

well, it's not even certain since the guy didn't get back to me. Last time he was online was june 11th lol


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> well, it's not even certain since the guy didn't get back to me. Last time he was online was june 11th lol


Have you called Mike at Finatics?


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

didnt you say not to get from LFS? lol


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> didnt you say not to get from LFS? lol


If you're desperate and no breeders have the fish you want then get it from an LFS. You'll always get a lower price from the breeder is the main thing.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

It wasn't at lucky's or aquapets, they didn't even know what saulosi was until I went there personally and asked the freshwater ppl, how much do they usually cost? I want juvies not adults.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> It wasn't at lucky's or aquapets, they didn't even know what saulosi was until I went there personally and asked the freshwater ppl, how much do they usually cost? I want juvies not adults.


Finatics is mostly lake malawi stuff so he probably has them. I have no idea what adults cost. As young fish you can probably get them for under $10 each. I'd guess something like $7 or 8 for a 1.5 to 2ish inch fish.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

that's pretty good, already sold my crays and odessas, getting a bunch of malawis this weekend to bring to my uncle who will pay me for them if they are good enough, if not, they will go to a LFS, you know who will pay top dollar for malawis? Finatics again?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> that's pretty good, already sold my crays and odessas, getting a bunch of malawis this weekend to bring to my uncle who will pay me for them if they are good enough, if not, they will go to a LFS, you know who will pay top dollar for malawis? Finatics again?


Probably get more from a Big Al's honestly. They work on a 40% trade ratio, so if a fish is $10 you get $4 for it. You'd probably get a better trade out @ Finatics though straight fish for fish.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

I see, I called big al's north york and they said they had a 25% trade ratio, do they give cash or just store credit?


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

Try Finatics first. mike is a good guy. Patience is important. Remember you can care for these fish and own them for YEARS, so a few weeks of looking around before you get them, is SO worth it.

W


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I see, I called big al's north york and they said they had a 25% trade ratio, do they give cash or just store credit?


LOL. BA's NY is such a joke IMO. Go to Scarb. 40%. It's credit.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Scarb doesn't have room for anymore african cichlids, they never do...Hopefully my uncle likes them 
How much is the retail price on saulosi? I hear cory has beautiful juvies for $13 each, kinda high since I am getting 8 of them. Won't be trying to breed them until I'm out of university.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Scarb doesn't have room for anymore african cichlids, they never do...Hopefully my uncle likes them
> How much is the retail price on saulosi? I hear cory has beautiful juvies for $13 each, kinda high since I am getting 8 of them. Won't be trying to breed them until I'm out of university.


They'll breed in two months. It's unstoppable.

It depends how nice Cory's juvies are. If they're perfect give him asking price. A little steep IMO but not if they're totally perfect.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Maybe I will start with 1 male and 3 females. I pmed him, so just waiting on a reply.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Maybe I will start with 1 male and 3 females. I pmed him, so just waiting on a reply.


Maybe, but you can't.

Get the correct ratio of fish. Borrow money or something


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Isn't the right ratio 1m:3f ?


----------



## TBemba

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Isn't the right ratio 1m:3f ?


I am sure the breeder with recommend the correct ratio of fish


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

uhh, saulosi is 1m:3f last time I checked with everyone, 2 males will not work out in my tank which is why i am getting more females. I am not after super beautiful flawless fish because I will be away from them during university, I will get really nice fish only when I am out of uni and will see them pretty much everyday. So I will most likely go to finatics to get my fish, unless breeders are found and are selling at my budget price. 

A side note about trading in fish. Don't fish lose colour when you catch them, put them in a bucket and drive them to a fish store? This amount of stress usually makes all fish lose their vivid colours and be seemingly lower grade and quality. How can LFS give you a good price for some beautiful fish that simply lose their colouration due to the stress from the transportation? Just wondering if we are all getting somewhat ripped off.


----------



## TBemba

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> uhh, saulosi is 1m:3f last time I checked with everyone, 2 males will not work out in my tank which is why i am getting more females. I am not after super beautiful flawless fish because I will be away from them during university, I will get really nice fish only when I am out of uni and will see them pretty much everyday. So I will most likely go to finatics to get my fish, unless breeders are found and are selling at my budget price.


I am sure Finatics would tell you the correct ratio as well.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

A side note about trading in fish. Don't fish lose colour when you catch them, put them in a bucket and drive them to a fish store? This amount of stress usually makes all fish lose their vivid colours and be seemingly lower grade and quality. How can LFS give you a good price for some beautiful fish that simply lose their colouration due to the stress from the transportation? Just wondering if we are all getting somewhat ripped off.


----------



## AquariAM

1m 3f is an acceptable ratio in a large aquarium. We're dealing with a 3 foot by 1 foot tank which is not very tall. You can't put two males in that space. It's not that 1/5 or 1/6 is the perfect ratio, it's that you can't have two males in three square feet of space. They won't tolerate eachother. One will be either badly beaten or killed (you already knew that I don't know why I'm mentioning it). Also, due to the smaller space, and male Mbuna's constant 'let's mate! Now!' harassment of females, having more than 3 females would be good to spread out the stress, given that in that much space it will be difficult for any one female to really 'get away' from the male.

So yes, 1m3f will work. 2m anything f will not. 1m 5/6ish f is ideal IMO.

Mbuna generally are very simple minded and it makes them easy to keep but you have to provide their needs.

1) FOOD
2) Mate as often as possible
3) Aquire and maintain the nicest possible cave


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Alright, I will definitely go for 1m7f. How much does Finatics have them on sale for?


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Alright, I will definitely go for 1m7f. How much does Finatics have them on sale for?


Why don't you just call the store and ask?


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Just wanted to know, they are closed monday and tuesday, and by now you should know I hunt down info and things of interest like a restless bloodhound


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Just wanted to know, they are closed monday and tuesday, and by now you should know I hunt down info and things of interest like a restless bloodhound


You should be a lawyer the way you like hunting down facts. 
The store is closed but you can email or PM finatics (username Finatics) on GTAA and www.pricenetwork.ca and ask and probably get a response before Wednesday.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

lol, will do ill pm them


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

no one answered this question:

A side note about trading in fish. Don't fish lose colour when you catch them, put them in a bucket and drive them to a fish store? This amount of stress usually makes all fish lose their vivid colours and be seemingly lower grade and quality. How can LFS give you a good price for some beautiful fish that simply lose their colouration due to the stress from the transportation? Just wondering if we are all getting somewhat ripped off.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> no one answered this question:
> 
> A side note about trading in fish. Don't fish lose colour when you catch them, put them in a bucket and drive them to a fish store? This amount of stress usually makes all fish lose their vivid colours and be seemingly lower grade and quality. How can LFS give you a good price for some beautiful fish that simply lose their colouration due to the stress from the transportation? Just wondering if we are all getting somewhat ripped off.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

lol i don't get it


----------



## carbonlist

I think he meant take a picture.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Found someone who is selling saulosi besides Finatics, name is Bruce Palmer, anyone had dealings with him?

_"Fish are 1.25" - 1.5"
8 fish $40.00 can toss in an extra male
Should know when I will be down by this saturday.
Can let you know then.
Let me know

Bruce"_

Here are pics of the fish. Are they worth the price?


----------



## AquariAM

They look _really_ good. Take them. Good price.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

alright, it's AqariAM approved, I will buy them for sure now ahaha


----------



## AquariAM

Go see them yourself and pick out the nicest fish. Get the biggest brightest male and the biggest brightest females. If you can't go get them make sure he understands you can only house one male.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

Can't pick, he lives over 8 hours from me, apparently he is coming down to toronto this coming saturday, he has tons of them for sale, anyone else wants some?


----------



## GuppiesAndBetta

Hey sorry to derail your discussion, but what is a good size starting tank if i want a breeding colony? 55 gallon?


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

Breeding colony of Saulosi? Check cichlid-forum species profile.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1

Maximum size is key. 4" ? Well, I wouldn't try anything in under 29g, and I think a nice long 55-60g would be ideal.

W


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

I have 25 gal long, has the same footprint as standard 30g i believe. I am gonna super overfilter it lol, aquaclear 10-20, aquaclear 500 and eheim 2213. Gonna get those last two this weekend.


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I have 25 gal long, has the same footprint as standard 30g i believe. I am gonna super overfilter it lol, aquaclear 10-20, aquaclear 500 and eheim 2213. Gonna get those last two this weekend.


That's ridiculous. You don't need that much and that configuration won't get you the best efficiency. Take that same amount of money, get a 2215. Run the 2215 and your Aquaclear 20. Set the aquaclear up with a prefilter sponge and your cycled media.

You don't need an insanely high amount of current in your tank. You'll get much better bio filtration from a 2215 than from a 2213+AC110.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

I would run an AC50 + 2217. AC20s are useless.

W


----------



## PACMAN

am i under filtered with a single 2217 in a 75 gallon? (i dont have many fish though., but going to change to a community tank with hopefully quite a few tetras and other friendlies


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

AquariAM said:


> That's ridiculous. You don't need that much and that configuration won't get you the best efficiency. Take that same amount of money, get a 2215. Run the 2215 and your Aquaclear 20. Set the aquaclear up with a prefilter sponge and your cycled media.
> 
> You don't need an insanely high amount of current in your tank. You'll get much better bio filtration from a 2215 than from a 2213+AC110.


I am getting ac 500 and eheim 2213 for a good deal, much lower than eheim 2215.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

PACMAN said:


> am i under filtered with a single 2217 in a 75 gallon?


Not really. I have an eheim 2217 + 2215 on my 75 gallon, which is nearly double what it needs, because when one filter needs cleaning, I worry about a fall-off in biofilter capacity after servicing it.

W


----------



## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I am getting ac 500 and eheim 2213 for a good deal, much lower than eheim 2215.


If you do that you'll need to diffuse the flow on the output of the 2213- shoot it into a sponge or something. Otherwise the fish will be tumbling around, even as adults, and fry will have no chance of swimming in that current at all . And you _will _have fry . The trick to having the fry survive in a cave tank is having a few very tiny caves and passageways that only tiny fish can fit into.


----------



## Philip.Chan.92

i hear the flow of the 2213 isn't all the big. Don't worry, ill play around with the outflow so that the fish won't get sloshed around. I hear they have a strong currents in their natural habitat, correct me if I am wrong. I usually turn off my filters during feedings, fry can swim during this time to eat, then they can go back to hiding after feeding time. Getting a 10 gallon, maybe raise the fry till they are around 1-1.5" in there?


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## GuppiesAndBetta

All the african cichlid talk is making me want to start a new tank. Plus, Toronto water is 7.8 pH wise so its slightly basic.


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## Philip.Chan.92

Ya, all the hype is what drew me in. They are beautiful fish that rival the colours of saltwater fish. There is also a huge selection of them and they are quite compatible with one another such as Malawi Lake Cichlids.


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> they are quite compatible with one another such as Malawi Lake Cichlids.


Not really you have to watch a lot of them.


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## Philip.Chan.92

lol ya...quite a few of them are gonna be in my tank...if lucky's doesnt give me a decent offer for the fish. Then I'm gonna have to do daily 30-50% water changes. You wanna buy any african cichlids AquariAM?


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> lol ya...quite a few of them are gonna be in my tank...if lucky's doesnt give me a decent offer for the fish. Then I'm gonna have to do daily 30-50% water changes. You wanna buy any african cichlids AquariAM?


No I don't. I don't think you're understanding the concept here. 
Stop worrying about what the fish cost and penny pinching. It's not going to get you anywhere. Some fish are worth X. Some are worth Y. I've bought fish for $70 and given them away to a good home. Sell the fish, give them away, trade them for a rock. Trade them for ten bucks for the lot. You can't just randomly mix all those fish together. You can- but you'll have ripped fins and aggression all over the place. Even your plan of 1 male and 8 females is ambitious by about two fish IMO but you can get away with it. Anything more is insane.


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## Philip.Chan.92

I plan to watch them quite carefully, if anything bad start to happen then I'll immediately take some of the fish to the store.


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## AquariAM

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I plan to watch them quite carefully, if anything bad start to happen then I'll immediately take some of the fish to the store.


You'd be surprised how fast Mbuna can kill eachother. I hope you can move your classes and your kitchen/bathroom into your fishroom so you can monitor 24/7


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## Philip.Chan.92

school is done for me now  I am always in my room lolz
well except when I go the the gym, turn off lights and close curtains so they go to sleep?  I plan to watch them all day the day I get them though.


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## Philip.Chan.92

Alright, I got all my caves set up, the fish use the bottom caves and the layer above that, but they don't ever use the third layer of caves at the top. Will they gradually start using them? It's quite near the surface of the water, the top of the cave about 3" from the surface of the water. They seem to be liking my plants, just put in a single hygrophila difformis to test the waters and see if they will eat my plants. Seems pretty good so far, Not planning to make the pH 8, so plants are definitely a possibility for keeping the water clean. Sure some of the plants arent from their biotope, then again these arent WC so they dont even know what home looks like.


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## juanitow

AquariAM said:


> No I don't. I don't think you're understanding the concept here.
> Stop worrying about what the fish cost and penny pinching. It's not going to get you anywhere. Some fish are worth X. Some are worth Y. I've bought fish for $70 and given them away to a good home. Sell the fish, give them away, trade them for a rock. Trade them for ten bucks for the lot. You can't just randomly mix all those fish together. You can- but you'll have ripped fins and aggression all over the place. Even your plan of 1 male and 8 females is ambitious by about two fish IMO but you can get away with it. Anything more is insane.


Keep in mind that Phillip is still in school. It's a perfectly sensible attitude to pick fish that can breed and gross you some income for the hobby. If you have a normal job that pays good money, it doesn't make sense to sell fish; too much time for too little money. As we all know, it can be expensive. But it will be prohibitively so for a student with no other income.



Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I plan to watch them quite carefully, if anything bad start to happen then I'll immediately take some of the fish to the store.


Be careful with mbunas, though. When you take out the most aggressive fish, you're taking out the alpha male. Often another male will step up and take its place. You really want to spread out the aggression and keep as many fish as possible so to repeatedly take out the most aggressive fish may be counterproductive. Good luck!

I liked mbuna's colours, but I had to call it quits because I didn't like the anger. For me, the harmony of fish, microorganisms and plants was the most attractive aspect of keeping fish. I now keep tangs, some of which live in communities, like cyprichromis and n. multifasciatus.


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## carbonlist

he has a 90 gallon now btw.


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## Philip.Chan.92

carbonlist said:


> he has a 90 gallon now btw.


That I do, I will put up some pics as soon as I find the time to do so


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