# cychlid problem



## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

I did a friend of mine a favour a while ago .. about half an hour ago he showed up with a bucket full of cychlids ranging from 0.5 to 6" (about 10 of them, different kinds)

I never had a cychlid before, my current tank tank is a 55g with some tiger barbs & julii cories ... 


for now I put them with barbs but otherwise I don't know what to do .. friend got them from some other buddy and can't return them 


I'll post pics .. don't know what cychlids they are, what do they demand ...

heck I have no idea what to do ..



specs: 55g planted, 4x54 t5ho, dyi co2, 12 tiger barbs, 1 juvy bristlenose


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Probably malawi. I'd get them out of there asap. They'll mess with your corys. Tiger barbs will be ok.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

okoolo said:


> I did a friend of mine a favour a while ago .. about half an hour ago he showed up with a bucket full of cychlids ranging from 0.5 to 6" (about 10 of them, different kinds)
> 
> I never had a cychlid before, my current tank tank is a 55g with some tiger barbs & julii cories ...
> 
> ...


Did you meant a cichlid problem


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

I identified 3 yellow rams (about 3") .. rest I'm not sure about .. I'll post pics soon.. they don't seem to fight .. yet

edit: 3 of those cychlids also kind of look like pearl gouramis .. (greyish with a fading vercal black strips and a black spot in the middle of both sides)


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> I identified 3 yellow rams (about 3") .. rest I'm not sure about .. I'll post pics soon.. they don't seem to fight .. yet
> 
> edit: 3 of those cychlids also kind of look like pearl gouramis .. (greyish with a black spot in the middle of their bodies)


Dude if you dont post pictures we can't help you. Some people have really whacky morphology perception. I've seen people say nicaraguense were gouramis. Also if you got them in a mix bucket I doubt they're yellow rams.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

any ideas?


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## clubsoda (Oct 10, 2009)

whoa they gonna enjoy your plants


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

wait a sec! they're gonna enjoy what now?

ain't nobody messin' with my plants! 

any ideas which cyclids are those? I'm gonna have to do some serious research


first algae .. now this ...


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## clubsoda (Oct 10, 2009)

they are mbuna cichlids, they will destroy your plants (eat them and dig them out). I had yellow labs before, they were not kind to my plants. they're cichlids they like to bite and dig.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Take them to BA and they will give you a credit before they destroy your plants and fishy too.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Okay, most of what you've got there are mbuna, rock dwelling cichlids from Lake Malawi. Any that have round yellow spots on the anal fins are probably mbuna -- all those big albino, yellow, orange, blue guys. The yellow one with the black stripe on the dorsal fin is probably a Labidochromis caeruleus, also called yellow lab or electric yellow. The others are some kind of Metriaclima or Pseudotropheus. The gray and black striped one that is out of focus may be some kind of Melanochromis. Some but not all of these fish are fond of eating plants. i have no problem with yellow labs and plants, personally. They ignore my jungle val and floating plants.

These fish all look large and healthy. Mike at Finatics might be willing to take them in trade for some other fish you may prefer.

The small slender orange-yellow one that appears in the second and third pic may be Neolamprologus leleupi. These fish don't harm plants. They are from Lake Tanganyika.

The really interesting ones (to me) are the grayish ones with blue spangles and some reddish color that appear in the first and fifth pics. They have a dark spot on the gill cover, mid-body and tail base. These may be a Hemichromis species, jewel cichlids. They originate in west Africa and can be hard to identify. They also don't harm plants. Pictures in books usually show them in their intense red and neon blue breeding color.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Pic 1 left metriaclima estherae rigth scofoli hybrid rear jewel bottom yellow lab cross (likely metriaclima estherae or barlowi- note the egg spot and fat head)

2, 3, ditto. Fish on far left in 3 and friends are yellow lab/metriaclima young. 

4 bottom can't tell likely jewel could be thomasi that had a really bad life
top metriaclima hybrid?

5 yellow labido

6 metriaclima SP

7 johanni? looks like hybrid

8 looks like a fossochromis hybrid top
pseudotropheus acei hybrid middle then a yellow lab and a metriaclima sp bottom. Fish at rear appears to be a peacock hap hybrid

9 dunno

10 too blurry

11 too blurry

these are NOT community fish and do not treat plants with any particular respect.

If you take them to Big Als you should walk away with about 120-150 credit.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> Pic 1 left metriaclima estherae rigth scofoli hybrid rear jewel bottom yellow lab cross (likely metriaclima estherae or barlowi- note the egg spot and fat head)
> 
> 2, 3, ditto. Fish on far left in 3 and friends are yellow lab/metriaclima young.
> 
> ...


Is that $120 to $150 or $12 to $15?


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> Is that $120 to $150 or $12 to $15?


The better one. $150.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> The better one. $150.


You got to be joking. ..for those ten cichlids if you get $20 to $30 in credit from BA than you are very lucky.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

so I shouldn't keep any of them?

I figured mbuna ones gottta go but could I keep jewels or yellow labs? how about couple of the small ones (last picture, black/blue stripe along the body)?

they look so cool.. now I get why people love cychlids ...


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

okoolo said:


> so I shouldn't keep any of them?
> 
> I figured mbuna ones gottta go but could I keep jewels or yellow labs? how about couple of the small ones (last picture, black/blue stripe along the body)?
> 
> they look so cool.. now I get why people love cychlids ...


Why don't you get another tank so you can keep the cichlids


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

already got a 55g,15g aquariums and a 45g with a snake... 

damn .. so none of those fish can coexist with tiger barbs? 

edit: what the fish in the last pic .. they're pretty small .. meybe I could keep those two ...

edit #2 .. if they're johani they're mbuna .. so that would be a no go on that one ... 

could I keep the yellow labs or the jewels? ..


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Can you take some better pics of the last fish.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

I think it's johani sp as it was stated .. 

I'll see if I can trade with somebody for some peaceful dwarf cychlids or meybe apistos. give that a try


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

okoolo said:


> I'll see if I can trade with somebody for some peaceful dwarf cychlids or meybe apistos. give that a try


Your tiger barbs are too aggressive for apistos and most other dwarfs.

Keep the jewels. They will be very happy in a planted tank. The only problem is that if they start courting, the pair will give the third one a hard time, but it may be able to stay out of danger range in a large tank like yours. Unlike mbuna, jewel cichlids form strong pair bonds and they are very good parents. They should be able to stand up to the tiger barbs, and vice versa.

If you really like them, you could try keeping the yellow labs and see how they do with your other fish and plants. They are among the least aggressive of mbuna, and they are micropredators -- in nature they pick small snails and other invertebrates from algae mats for a living, unlike most other mbuna which eat the algae itself.

For me, the fascination of cichlids is not the colors, but the behaviour. They are among the most intelligent of fish, especially pair bonding species, and they have very complex parental behaviour. My favorite, and I think the best for cichlid beginners, is the common krib, also called kribensis, Pelvicachromis pulcher. They are small, not very aggressive even when breeding, and their courtship and parental behaviour is wonderful to watch.

As for selling off the mbuna, I recommend Mike at Finatics again.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

bae said:


> Your tiger barbs are too aggressive for apistos and most other dwarfs.
> 
> Keep the jewels. They will be very happy in a planted tank. The only problem is that if they start courting, the pair will give the third one a hard time, but it may be able to stay out of danger range in a large tank like yours. Unlike mbuna, jewel cichlids form strong pair bonds and they are very good parents. They should be able to stand up to the tiger barbs, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Mike will give him maybe 1/4th of what BA's will. BA's doesn't know good Africans, and those are NOT good africans. They are all D grade.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

hmm .. yeah I think I'll try keeping jewels and electric rams ..
2x yellow lab (female-2", male 3")
2x jewels (3" & 4") not sure about sex 

should I get another female yellow lab?

to be honest all those cychlids don't seem to be that aggressive .. they just keep swimming around 

I'll give BA a shot ( I'm not sure anybody on the forum will be interested) .. how much should I hope for

5x red zebra (4.5",3", 2x2",1.5"), sex not sure
2x johani sp (2x male 1.5")
2x Fosso Cichlid (2x3"), sex not sure

(this is I assume what I have)

also not sure about the procedure.. do I just show up at the counter and ask to speak with the manager? do I huggle or something?

ps AquariAM thanks for the strong endorsement lol..


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

okoolo said:


> hmm .. yeah I think I'll try keeping jewels and electric rams ..
> 2x yellow lab (female-2", male 3")
> 2x jewels (3" & 4") not sure about sex
> 
> ...


See how the two yellow labs get along with your fish and plants first. Some hiding places for the female would be a good idea. If they are even mildly happy and reasonably well fed, she will have a mouthful of eggs soon. Hm. Now that I think of it, the male will dig a pit, if he can, to court the female. This isn't a problem for me, since my males always dig their pits under caves, where the plant roots aren't disturbed. I have a sand substrate in that tank. It may be a problem for you.

As for just swimming around, yeah, that's what mbuna do. Basically, there are two ways of keeping them. One is to have a lot of them with no good places to stake out territories, so aggression is spread out and none can find a place to defend. The other is to give them lots of hiding places. I have a big rock pile with pieces of plastic pipe inside (where i don't have to see it) and the fish get along reasonably well. But I have only yellow labs, which are less aggressive and territorial than most mbuna. The three Cynotilapia afra I've got in there, while not all that aggressive for mbuna, do a lot of chasing and the caves are well used for escape and hiding.

In nature, it's life or death for most mbuna to be able to defend a feeding territory, a patch of rocks with algae. Some species defend small spawning territories for short periods of time. Most other cichlids are only very territorial when spawning and guarding their young.


> also not sure about the procedure.. do I just show up at the counter and ask to speak with the manager? do I huggle or something?


I haven't taken fish in to Big Al's, just plants, and that not recently.

It's probably a good idea to phone first to see if they are interested, and to go at a time when they aren't busy. IME in breeding fish, most stores are more willing to trade for store credit, and they'll generally give you more in store credit than in cash. A small LFS might just do a direct trade, your fish for their fish/plants, without toting it up in money.

You could also advertise on pnaquaria.ca, but there you have to post a price in your ads. Maybe people here can advise you on what's reasonable. Your fish are probably not attractive to breeders, since there's no telling if they are 'pure' -- in captivity mbuna crossbreed readily between species and even genera -- but they are large, healthy and colorful, so if people just want fish to look at, they may buy them. In general, people don't have the time or space to raise mbuna to full size, so while fry are usually cheap, large adults can go for surprising prices. On the other hand, stores don't always have the space for a lot of big mbuna either.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

as to feeding .. I have pellets, few kinds of flakes, frozen brine shrimp, and ocean nutrition cichlid vegi pellets

(and algae/plants in my tank lol)

so far I've read that cichlids prefer live food .. should I maybe start growing some live cultures?


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

okoolo said:


> as to feeding .. I have pellets, few kinds of flakes, frozen brine shrimp, and ocean nutrition cichlid vegi pellets
> 
> (and algae/plants in my tank lol)
> 
> so far I've read that cichlids prefer live food .. should I maybe start growing some live cultures?


Mbuna will eat anything, but for the more vegetarian types, a diet higher in plant matter is better for them.

Yellow labs and jewels are omnivores, but the jewels are more carnivorous. These fish should do fine on all the food you list above. You might get some frozen bloodworms for the jewels, especially if you want them to spawn.

All fish prefer live food!

There are thousands of species of cichlids, with all kind of feeding adaptations, some rather bizarre. They range from active predators on fish to professional herbivores, so you can't generalize entirely. However, most are omnivores to some extent, and will eat detritus and whatever they can find. Many will try to catch other small fish, but except for the specialists, most are fairly inept at it.

If the yellow labs spawn, don't worry, the fry are quite large when released and do well on crushed flake. Jewel fry are a lot smaller, but may find enough to eat in a heavily planted tank for a start, especially if you have a lot of fine textured plants like java moss for them to pick tiny critters (protozoa, etc) from. Or you can get a microworm culture from me or somebody else here. When a bit larger, they can eat crushed flake, too.

Btw, I like the stone backdrop on your tank, especially the natural algae growth and the java moss growing from the crevices.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> hmm .. yeah I think I'll try keeping jewels and electric rams ..
> 2x yellow lab (female-2", male 3")
> 2x jewels (3" & 4") not sure about sex
> 
> ...


Call ahead. You can't haggle you'll get 40% of the retail price if they want them.

you're looking at about $5-10 each for the zebras maybe $5 for the johannis, which are quite poor, and maybe $20 for the fossos

I thought you had about 30 fish for some reason.. sorry about that.. I was off with my guestimate


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## Windowlicka (Mar 5, 2008)

I'd caution against putting bloodworms in a tank containing mbuna - it's suspected of causing intestinal problems due to the high protein content.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

the biggest zebra picked a small cave and chases all the other cychlids from there .. but ignores the cories .. is that normal?

overall I've been watching them on and off and I just don't see much aggressiveness .. my barbs are more aggressive then the cychlids ..


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> the biggest zebra picked a small cave and chases all the other cychlids from there .. but ignores the cories .. is that normal?
> 
> overall I've been watching them on and off and I just don't see much aggressiveness .. my barbs are more aggressive then the cychlids ..


You just noticed it when they become territorial.
people say "well MY green terror has never bothered my angelfish". Ya. Yet. 

It's called conspecific aggression. The less the fish looks like the other fish, the less it is bothered by its presence. Angels don't awknowledge corys exist. Plecos are occasionally mildly bothered by their intrusions. That same pleco will chase another pleco in the same spot. That angel would chase a dwarf cichlid and attack another angel of the same sex if it were territorial and used to being alone.

Mbuna only become aggressive once they pick out territories. It takes a few days. 
Keep them, lose some plants, possibly some tiger barbs. Eventually your corys will be harassed to crapp condition or death.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm fairly sure I'm getting rid of all mbunas .. just waiting to see if anyone on the forum wants them .. otherwise BA's..


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> I'm fairly sure I'm getting rid of all mbunas .. just waiting to see if anyone on the forum wants them .. otherwise BA's..


With all due respect, they're D grade man. If that. Nobody wants them. 









A grade Estherae









B grade Fosso


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

fair enough .. BA it is ...

however these ones I'm not 100% sure about the name so I took better pics just to make sure..

fosso(one fish 2 pics)


















jewel? (one fish 2 pics)


















johani sp? (2 fishes)


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## Windowlicka (Mar 5, 2008)

The fish in the 4th shot looks like a Lab. Hongi

the last two shots look a little like a Mel. Exasperatus


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

3 & 4 are the same fish if that helps


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

I don't think 1&2 is a Fossorochromis -- more like a Metriaclima or Pseudotropheus of some sort, possibly a hybrid. Ditto, 3&4.

I can see the two jewels in the background of 3. They seem to be developing more red color, so maybe they are settling down a bit. Also, just judging from the few pictures you've posted, they seem to be hanging out together, so they may well be a pair.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Based on these new pics, they're all hybrids. 
They're honestly feeder fodder quality IMO.

As per the last one being a Hongi... No. It is not any kind of labidochromis, not even remotely close in any conceivable way.


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## 1dime (Mar 6, 2009)

Lol im not into cichlids but notice the more pictures you post, the more the price seems to go down based on comments "d grade" to "feeder"...haha sorry no offence


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

that's why I stopped putting pics up .. lol
next thing you know they'd tell me they don't qualify to be called cychlids at all..
and my fish were getting depressed..

ps. I think they're awesome.. 
All that grading crap is for picky breeders with too much time on their hands ( no offense lol)


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> ps. I think they're awesome..
> All that grading crap is for picky breeders with too much time on their hands ( no offense lol)


This is usually the comment made by people who don't understand what quality is and don't mind having a lump of stupid that's so inbred it doesn't even exhibit the proper behaviours. Some of us want to watch nature at home. Some of us just want some retards with fins to swim around and be blue and orange .

Inbred cichlid equivalent









Show quality equivalent









Sure, they're both human, but I'd rather keep Famke Jenssen in a box and feed her spirulina flakes than Whitney. All that crack would require large amounts of carbon and frequent water changes. FWIW, I'd let Famke Jenssen keep me in a box too...

But I digress..

With all due respect-- people who don't recognize and are not willing to pay for quality are the _reason_ why southern ontario has crappy fish, generally speaking. If you paid $800 for your setup and $100 for your plants why not $400 for fish? I don't get it.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

you do realize I was joking right?
relax .. no need to be so uptight


on a serious note .. a lot of people like me simply enjoy looking at pretty fish.. I realize my fish are not up to your standards but I just don't care
you don't need a $100 fish for it to be enjoyable .. heck my gf has white cloud minnows (30 c each) and she loves it!

at the end of the day it's just .. you know .. a pretty fish lol (joking)


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> This is usually the comment made by people who don't understand what quality is and don't mind having a lump of stupid that's so inbred it doesn't even exhibit the proper behaviours. Some of us want to watch nature at home. Some of us just want some retards with fins to swim around and be blue and orange .
> 
> Inbred cichlid equivalent
> 
> ...


Nice comparison...LOL
BTW, are you sure crack would require large amounts of carbon and frequent water changes?


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

at least the fish would be happy .. I'd imagine LFS would have to start carrying crack too lol..


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

> This is usually the comment made by people who don't understand what quality is and don't mind having a lump of stupid that's so inbred it doesn't even exhibit the proper behaviours. Some of us want to watch nature at home. Some of us just want some retards with fins to swim around and be blue and orange .
> 
> With all due respect-- people who don't recognize and are not willing to pay for quality are the reason why southern ontario has crappy fish, generally speaking. If you paid $800 for your setup and $100 for your plants why not $400 for fish? I don't get it.


little experiment:

replace the fish with any other pet (say dog)

This is usually the comment made by people who don't understand what quality is and don't mind having a lump of stupid that's so inbred it doesn't even exhibit the proper behaviours. Some of us want to watch nature at home. Some of us just want some retards with ears to walk around and be blue and orange..

With all due respect-- people who don't recognize and are not willing to pay for quality are the reason why southern ontario has crappy dogs, generally speaking. If you paid $800 for your setup and $100 for your plants why not $400 for a dog? I don't get it.

do you realize how absurd you sound?

beauty lies in the eye of a beholder..


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> little experiment:
> 
> replace the fish with any other pet (say dog)
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I can't put dogs in the same category as fish. Do you want your dog to run away, join other dogs and hunt small mammals in a wooded area? Do you want it to howl at night? Do you want it bringing you dead rats and rabbits? That's the natural behaviour.

You don't want a dog to exhibit natural behaviour. It's a domesticated animal. It's genetics are not easily degraded by captive breeding.

Fish are NOT domesticated. With the exception of longstanding man made fish like goldfish and koi, all fish will degrade in quality and eventually become deformed the further away they get from wild caught.

I want the fish to act like it does in the wild. Most people do.

Fish and reptiles must be held to high morphological standards. They are not domestic animals. You aren't guaranteed a properly grown out dog/cow/chicken/cat. It will be a proper adult, or a crappy one, based on genetics.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

Look , all I'm saying is, most people love their fish regardless of how pure they are. If you want pure fish and all that, feel free and buy it but don't force your moral and aesthetic values on others. Some of us just enjoy our pets the way they are, no matter how "unnatural" their behavior may be to you.

Assuming for a moment that you're right and I did get hybrids and assuming they're crap as you have repeatedly stated what would you like me to do, throw them out? would you?


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

That post with human pictures is really funny 
Thanks!


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

okoolo said:


> Look , all I'm saying is, most people love their fish regardless of how pure they are. If you want pure fish and all that, feel free and buy it but don't force your moral and aesthetic values on others. Some of us just enjoy our pets the way they are, no matter how "unnatural" their behavior may be to you.
> 
> Assuming for a moment that you're right and I did get hybrids and assuming they're crap as you have repeatedly stated what would you like me to do, throw them out? would you?


I agree with you that we should love our fishy even if it is not up to standard but what is the standard...everybody has different point of view on standards anyways.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

okoolo said:


> Look , all I'm saying is, most people love their fish regardless of how pure they are. If you want pure fish and all that, feel free and buy it but don't force your moral and aesthetic values on others. Some of us just enjoy our pets the way they are, no matter how "unnatural" their behavior may be to you.
> 
> Assuming for a moment that you're right and I did get hybrids and assuming they're crap as you have repeatedly stated what would you like me to do, throw them out? would you?


Why do people get their backs up? We can't afford to mince words about this. People have to start buying quality fish and rejecting hybrids. Otherwise the fish in the hobby will continue to be crapp with great frequency.

I'm saying I dont think you can or should sell them to other members, and that BA's will likely take them.

This is an aquarium forum. I imagine an AKC forum would have people fanatical about maintaining genetic purity in dogs too. Maybe not everyone- but some.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

AquariAM said:


> People have to start buying quality fish and rejecting hybrids.


Ppl will spend what they want or can afford. Some want $.50 guppies and some want $1000 fish. If someone just wants a colorful cichlid for less than a WC, it's up to them. There will always be ppl that will only buy WC or "pure" and ppl that will want a nice looking fish regardless of purity. As long as hybrids aren't sold as pure, then it's no issue.

I'm sure ppl love their mutt pet dogs as much as the ones that have purebred...they may even be less anal and more relaxed about it too.

This is a "free" society, let the guy try to sell it, if it doesn't sell, then it's up to him to do with as he pleases by either keeping or giving it away.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Even some hybrids sell as high as $5000CAD like flowerhorn


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

There ya go, so a successful hybrid is worth something.

...is it a matter of how long it's been a desired hybrid then?


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

It would be a very boring world if everybody liked the same things, or had the same objectives, or the same viewpoints. 

People keep fish and enjoy them for a lot of different reasons. Having the 'best' by show standards isn't important to most people, and there's no reason it has to be.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Riceburner said:


> This is a "free" society, let the guy try to sell it, if it doesn't sell, then it's up to him to do with as he pleases by either keeping or giving it away.


An I'm free to be a genetic purity fascist  

(for fish. Im not a nazi)


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

that you are.  

everyone happy now?


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

AquariAM believes that if you didn't pay a lot for it, it's crap. He believes the universe is structured in such a way, that if he paid a lot of money for something, it must be good. 



He has to justify this to himself. So whenever anybody gets a free fish that is stressed out and has poor coloration, he has to point out that it's probably a D-grade hybrid feeder fish so he can feel good about spending $400 on something.

What would be really funny is if some day he takes a hybrid to a competition, because it has really nice colors, and gets told at the competition that his show Peacock F1 is really a hybrid grade-4 feeder that happens to have nice colors.


W


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> AquariAM believes that if you didn't pay a lot for it, it's crap. He believes the universe is structured in such a way, that if he paid a lot of money for something, it must be good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL...there are lot more people share this believe


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> AquariAM believes that if you didn't pay a lot for it, it's crap. He believes the universe is structured in such a way, that if he paid a lot of money for something, it must be good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Warren, again, I take offense to the way you feel you need to word your opinion. It's one thing for me to say I believe we should maintain the utmost of genetic purity in fish. It's another for me to name names and say someone is stupid for disagreeing. That's three times now. I'd say something back but I'm happier simply defending myself from the point of my morphology and genetic preferences, as these are sound, and numerous hobbyists agree with me.

I currently have 4 silver angels that were $6 at Big Als and a $25 silver angel from Frank's Aquarium which is a peruvian false altum. (still a scalare, but much nicer). Can you guess which is the nicest angel? Yes! The $25 one!

I don't need to tell someone a fish is low grade to feel good about my expensive fish man. If it's low grade, it's low grade. If it's high grade, it's high grade.

Again, if you want hybridized low grade fish, go for it.

I'd never take a hybrid to a competition. Every time I've had one or several, I've been fully aware of it. I'm also extremely anal and post pictures on cichlid forum to make sure things I'm not 100% sure on are infact pure.

I bought a group of yellow labs for $135 that turned out to be hybridized with metriaclima once they grew out and were big enough to tell. I demanded a refund. That's how I work. It's how I choose to work.

Three of the four lower grade angels I have will be BA's trade ins, as the nicest lower grade, who isn't bad, but still nowhere near the false altum, is pairing with the false altum.

What can I say man? I've had wild caught paradise gourami and pond raised. I liked the W/C one better. Much truer to it's wild behaviour, carries itself better, more interesting to watch.

Feel free to buy whatever fish you want. If you come on a forum and post pictures of D grade fish, as someone did, I will TELL you, you have D grade fish. If you post A grade fish, (hi, Tropicana, Riceburner et al), I will say wow, what a nice fish.

Feel free to buy whichever fish you please. I won't insult you for it. I will point out, yet again, why I disagree, but I've never made a personal public attack the way you have. You may wish to extend the same courtesy and mature attitude to me.. because as it stands, at least to those of us who will pay for quality, you're coming across as not a nice person.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Yes but you do insult other people for it. Which is the problem. Feel free to say, "You may do as you like, and it's fine", rather than saying "you may do as you like, and be wrong, and by the way, all your fish are D-grade (garbage)". So cut it out, eh?

W


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Yes but you do insult other people for it. Which is the problem. Feel free to say, "You may do as you like, and it's fine", rather than saying "you may do as you like, and be wrong, and by the way, all your fish are garbage".
> 
> W


I've said people's hybridized underfed cichlids were D grade. You could equate that to garbage. I do. 
I've never said "User X feels the need to justify Y"

If you don't see the difference, I have nothing left to discuss.

*AquariAM believes that if you didn't pay a lot for it, it's crap. He believes the universe is structured in such a way, that if he paid a lot of money for something, it must be good. *

I've paid six dollars for quality F1 mbuna too. High price does not = quality. Quality = quality. Some people charge more for it, some don't, some think it's worth it, some don't. I would have gladly paid $30 for that $6 fish but the asking price does not in itself denote the quality of th efish. I stand by my views and my expression of them. I haven't personally attacked anyone.

*Riceburner-* I'm not implying that hybrids are automatically bad fish. I think flowerhorns are very attractive and have nothing against them. 
The thing with a flowerhorn is that you can tell it's a flowerhorn, and you're only likely to try to breed it to another flowerhorn if at all. It is not a hybrid which suffers from deformation of the mouth or poor swimming ability like parrotfish, and is a robust, attractive, interactive fish. I don't want one-- but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Where hybrids are bad IMO is in places they're hard to see and blend in. Places like Mbuna, which readily hybridize. Someone unwittingly gets hybrids, breeds them, they look enough like X to sell as X, they take them to a pet shop as trade, those go out and breed, come back, and next thing you know 50% of the X's for sale in Toronto are hybrids. It happens all the time. This is why inconspicuous hybrids should be IMO kept seperate, not permitted to breed, and have them live an existance that ends when they do. Or used as feeders when still fry for something like a flowerhorn (flame shields on)

That's what I'm against- crappy genetics, inconspicuous hybrids that slip through and contaminate the gene pool, hybrids which are deformed as a result of hybridization, and purposeful 'malicious' hybridization (ie, the breeding of metriaclima barlowi and yellow labs to produce tall yellow labs with no vertical barring or white, then passing those off as pure labs).


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

I told my buddy that the fish he gave me were subpar ..

he just called me and in few days were gonna visit the breeder he got the fish from and that guy will let me have any fish I want from his tanks .. apparently he's got dozens of huge tanks with cichlids & plecos that he breeds..

how do I tell if a fish is A grade etc? what would be a good cichlid to have.. ?


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Bring along a snob, then you can be sure it's "grade A". 

W


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

okoolo said:


> ... that guy will let me have any fish I want from his tanks .. apparently he's got dozens of huge tanks with cichlids & plecos that he breeds..
> 
> how do I tell if a fish is A grade etc? what would be a good cichlid to have.. ?


Ask him what is the most expensive fish in his tanks. Then, select that fish


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

okoolo said:


> I told my buddy that the fish he gave me were subpar ..
> 
> he just called me and in few days were gonna visit the breeder he got the fish from and that guy will let me have any fish I want from his tanks .. apparently he's got dozens of huge tanks with cichlids & plecos that he breeds..
> 
> how do I tell if a fish is A grade etc? what would be a good cichlid to have.. ?


I am sure if you take 10 members from GTAA and put 5 fishy infront of them and ask them to rate them 1 to 5 and you will get different opinions. So if you can not tell between grade A or subpar then it doesn't matter which fishy you take. You should take the one you like the most. This way you will enjoy it more then trying to get a grade A fishy but not your taste. Or like igor said take the most expensive fish in his tanks


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Bring along a snob, then you can be sure it's "grade A".
> 
> W


Don't you ever get tired of acting like that? What is your problem with me? Even if you have one, is that really a constructive way to deal with it? Making yourself look like an angry individual? I take particular offense to your use of insults.
Calling me a snob on the forum is a violation of GTAA rules. PM would be different. 
OP If you want high grade fish, buy F1-F3, ideally, and familiarize yourself with the ideal morphology for that species.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Alright guys, be nice, and try to stay off the personal attacks and stay on topic.

BTW, your mom is a hybrid. Vehicle. Made by Toyota. zing!


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

ameekplec. said:


> Alright guys, be nice, and try to stay off the personal attacks and *stay on topic.*


OOps.

Hybrids can be nice, as are line bred fish. Also, lots of hybrids exist in nature (and only in nature), and result in many amazing specimens:


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Every so often we get a Grade A snob on this web-site, and it upsets me, because I think it harms the GTAA community. People calling someone else's fish "grade D" (aka trash), and raising their subjective opinions to the level of imaginary authority that they don't actually have, is annoying. Arrogance is annoying. Pedantry is annoying. 

Lots of people keep their heads up and won't respond to a troll when one comes around on here, but it annoys 100 people for every ONE person who speaks up about it.

You guys remember Pablo? I sure do. He was really something. I wonder if he's back.

Warren


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Every so often we get a Grade A snob on this web-site, and it upsets me, because I think it harms the GTAA community. People calling someone else's fish "grade D" (aka trash), and raising their subjective opinions to the level of imaginary authority that they don't actually have, is annoying.


What imaginary authority are you talking about man?
I am Pablo, as people already know.

I think you're much more disruptive and annoying than I am. This is highly juvenile behaviour you're exhibiting.

There is no imaginary authority. If you have SUCH a fragile ego that it bothers you that much for me to voice my opinion on what I think is and isn't a good fish, I suggest you log off, close your blinds, and never go outside again. It may just be too much for you to handle.

I'm pretty sure other people can handle it and it's just you that has such a problem with my comments. I welcome other people to POLITELY say the same things to me you have said, and if more than 2 people say it, I will change my ways, but at the moment I only hear one (very loud, squeeky) wheel.

I stand by my previous explanation. If this were an AKC/CKC forum, people would critique eachother's dogs for fur, posture, proportions. Why shouldn't we do the same? 
We still have high quality purebred dogs that have been bred by humans for thousands of years- ie, sharpei. They remain high quality because of dilligent breeding. I simply advocate the same for aquariums. 
Get over it man. Soon. Seriously. Or at very least, keep it to your self.

Me advocating grade A fish doesn't hurt the hobby. People buying and selling hybrid grade D garbage and not educating themselves on what they're moving is what damages the hobby.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Not everybody did know that actually. Because you got kicked off for bad behaviour. And lots of people thought you were gonna stay gone. And let's do a straw poll and see if other people like the high-horse attitude. 

W


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Not everybody did know that actually. Because you got kicked off for bad behaviour. And lots of people thought you were gonna stay gone. And let's do a straw poll and see if other people like the high-horse attitude.
> 
> W


You're the one with the high horse attitude. You're throwing stones from your glass house in a big way man. I've simply stated my beliefs regarding the hobby. I've commented about fish but I've never commented about people. I'm also not one to knock fish people have raised themselves because I don't want to demean their efforts, however, this guy

A) received these fish from elsewhere and did not raise them

B) put them in a plant tank with other fish they were likely to harass

so I figured it would be ok to mention they weren't the highest quality, or high quality at all, were mostly hybrids, and would not be well suited to the tank. Hearing they were lower qual and not suited to the tank mates would at least make me not want them, and take them in for trades, which would have been best as they will annoy or kill his cories and cause him upset which could be avoided.

*And let's do a straw poll and see if other people like the high-horse attitude. *

I strongly encourage you to post such a poll.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

Settle down both of you or I'm gonna ban you!!!




...oh wait...I can't. Oh well empty threats.... 


As for critiquing other's fish....maybe we don't see it too much on this site, probably cause it's a wide mix of members....serious hobbyist to newbs and not as serious hobbyists. I like fish I can take pics of...


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Riceburner said:


> As for critiquing other's fish....maybe we don't see it too much on this site, probably cause it's a wide mix of members....serious hobbyist to newbs and not as serious hobbyists. I like fish I can take pics of...


+1

On cichlid forum, you post your random cichlid for ID and are likely to hear "Fossochromis rostratus, and not a very good one either. The nose is snubbed and it may be hybridized with X"

and the OP goes "Ok, thank you". I've been on CC for a long time including during my 'absence ' from GTAA. Nobody there has an issue with it. I didn't think it'd be an issue here. I'm not out

to purposely offend anybody.


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## Tbird (Oct 5, 2009)

Riceburner said:


> Settle down both of you or I'm gonna ban you!!!
> 
> ...oh wait...I can't. Oh well empty threats....
> 
> As for critiquing other's fish....maybe we don't see it too much on this site, probably cause it's a wide mix of members....serious hobbyist to newbs and not as serious hobbyists. I like fish I can take pics of...


And fantatic pics you take!!!


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Riceburner said:


> Settle down both of you or I'm gonna ban you!!!
> 
> ...oh wait...I can't. Oh well empty threats....


No... but I can.

Tone it down and keep on topic. Last warning.


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## Tbird (Oct 5, 2009)

KnaveTO said:


> No... but I can.
> 
> Tone it down and keep on topic. Last warning.


HAHAHA....

Took you awhile to get to the party.


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## 1dime (Mar 6, 2009)

I want to vote for that poll! Post that up go


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

okoolo said:


> I told my buddy that the fish he gave me were subpar ..
> 
> he just called me and in few days were gonna visit the breeder he got the fish from and that guy will let me have any fish I want from his tanks .. apparently he's got dozens of huge tanks with cichlids & plecos that he breeds..
> 
> how do I tell if a fish is A grade etc? what would be a good cichlid to have.. ?


Forget this grading business. Learn more about cichlids of different kinds and decide which species you want to work with, and whether you can provide the conditions they need.

I'd like to know if this breeder has any other West African (not rift lake) species. If you find out, PM me. Ditto for small Central and South Americans. Also, which species your jewels are.

I bet this apparently serious breeder was really happy to hear that the fish you got for free were called trash here, based on some not very clear photos. N.B. I'm not criticizing the photos -- we can't all be Riceburners!


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

bae said:


> Forget this grading business. Learn more about cichlids of different kinds and decide which species you want to work with, and whether you can provide the conditions they need.
> 
> I'd like to know if this breeder has any other West African (not rift lake) species. If you find out, PM me. Ditto for small Central and South Americans. Also, which species your jewels are.
> 
> I bet this apparently serious breeder was really happy to hear that the fish you got for free were called trash here, based on some not very clear photos. N.B. I'm not criticizing the photos -- we can't all be Riceburners!


Again I wasn't insulting anybody I was just saying as above that they weren't that great to begin with and not worth the risk of the cories, especially given the not-that-greatness.


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## okoolo (Nov 1, 2009)

I moved the barbs to a different tank and added another cave system .. zebras seem to have picked their caves and sit there most of the time .. don't bother cories for now 

I'll ask the breeder if he has a list of cichlids .. if he doesn't mind I'll post it or ask him to join the forum

what do you mean what species my jewels are? are there different kinds of jewel cichlids?


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

okoolo said:


> I'll ask the breeder if he has a list of cichlids .. if he doesn't mind I'll post it or ask him to join the forum


That would be great.



> what do you mean what species my jewels are? are there different kinds of jewel cichlids?


There's at least a dozen species, probably more. The whole genus is very confusing and fish are often incorrectly identified. I'm hoping to find Hemichromis cristatus some day.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

I was discussing with a friend the other day the fact that within a hobby like this, it seems there is this urge to "go pro" with it. To be an expert, to try and do it like the big boys do it. This is admirable (if it takes you towards a proper study of ichthyology, you could be the next Axelrod or Bleher) and also funny. 

Because for most of us on here, it's a hobby. We like to get opinions from other people. But you know what? In the end, people, we are buying fish and putting them in glass boxes. Which is not their natural environment, however much we're trying, it's still less good for them than their natural environments. However, besides the hobby aspect, and the naturalist bent that many of us have, there's also the "pet" aspect.

If you're going to care for Cichlids, I'm sure everybody here will say "learn about your cichlids". Posting a picture here for identification can be great, or dodgy (if it's blurry we do our best, but hey, what can you say). 

If you're housing a bunch of african cichlids with a bunch of community fish, or in a planted tank, then lots of people here are going to take lots of different approaches. One of them is the bold approach. The other is a little more gentle. 

I guess, like all people, I have my buttons. And one of them, or several of them, got pushed yesterday. So I just want to say, further to my testy messages of yesterday, that I'm feeling a lot more sanguine about this now. That doesn't mean I appreciate being sworn at in private-messages.

Let's have a little class here, folks. And I, for my part, will try to reign myself in, when I feel someone is being a little high, I will restrain that impulse I have to mock people. Because it just gets them going even more. And that's not good. So I apologize for being a bit of a jerk.

Hopefully we're all on this board, because we love our fish, and our hobby. Let's stick to that then. So, I'm sorry, Pablo, for yanking on your chain. I do wish that in future we could both avoid getting like this again.

Warren


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Hopefully we're all on this board, because we love our fish, and our hobby. Let's stick to that then. So, I'm sorry, Pablo, for yanking on your chain. I do wish that in future we could both avoid getting like this again.
> 
> Warren


Thank you and appology accepted. I also appologize for my reaction.


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