# Thread algae



## jrs

I have thread algae in my 35g tank. I have sae's and otto's in there but they don't seem to being doing the entire job. It isn't a really bad case yet and I have been just using a stick to get rid of any on a daily basis but I am starting to get annoyed. Any suggestions or experiences?


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## Discus_breeder

You can try to purchase the mardel copper or cooper safe i dont remember but its either one.


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## chompy

Do you have any plants in your tank, I find they rob algea of nutrients. When you tested your tank what did it read? How many hours a day do you leave your lights on for.


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## jrs

Yes it is a 35g planted tank. I only recently started the hagen CO2 on it (a few days). 
PO4 = 0
NO3 = 4-5
pH = 8.0
kH = 100

The pH is high but I anticipate that when the CO2 really kicks in it should drop.


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## chompy

The PH will drop because of the extra CO2, once the plants start to use it all the PH will go back to normal. Keep up with the water changes and try keeping your lights on for 10hrs only. Is your tank newly set up?


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## jrs

I should have mentioned that I have a 96W pc for my lighting on a 14hr on cycle. I do 30% changes weekly and the that tank has been going for a few months now. I am hoping I can get the pH down to 7.2 or so.


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## chompy

Ya I would do daily water changes untill the agea subsides. Also I don't think your plants need that amount of light, take it down a couple of hours.


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## ranmasatome

JRS..
Dont drop your intensity of light.. jsut drop the lighting hours.. try dropping it to 10 hrs a day.
And get some Po4 in there.. 1-2 ppm.
your buffer capacity is huge since your kh is 100!! it'll be hard to drop it lower..but no harm trying.


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## jrs

I know the kH is huge at 100 ppm. Right now I have about 20 guppy juvies, a couple of sae's and cories and a clown loach. I have been using my frontosa tank water and putting that in the planted tank during my water changes. I suppose if I keep doing that I will never be able to get the kH down.

Is this not enough of a bioload? 

I am really skittish about bumping the phosphates. Will this not increase my algae? 

If I adjust my pH with pH down or something I should be able to decrease the buffering capacity right.

If I made up some phosphoric acid could I "kill two birds with one stone"?


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## ranmasatome

dont worry about the bioload at least with what you have now..
bumping phosphates will not give you algae..thats old logic.. get your plants to grow well..that will help lower your algae problems.
personally.. i dont use ph down.. besides it's not going to affect it much since your kh is so high..unless you add a lot which is not good in the first place. lower your ph ONLY with Co2.
Test the kh of your tap water and the frontosa water.. i ahve a feeling the one from the frontosa will have a higher kh..
if you're injecting co2 then i suggest increasing the no3 to about 10ppm or more as well.


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## jrs

The front tank has crushed coral for a substrate so I imagine that the kH will be high. I am going to just start replacing the water with tap water instead.

I was thinking of changing all my tanks over to PMDD fert. Does anyone use this and what is the cost of buying the trace?


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## chompy

If you want to lower the ph, get some drift wood. This will naturally lower the ph quite effectivelly, ph lowering products create more problems than they solve. Also toxins are amplified heavily when the ph is high, if you lower the ph it might help with getting rid of the algea. This is just a theory though, I might be wrong.


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## holocron

Hi Jrs,

I lower my PH / KH by inserting a bag of peat into my canister filter. The more you add the more it will bring it down. Peat will also give a yellow tint to the water, which I personally like. Driftwood works too.

I bought some dry mix ferts from homegrown hydroponics here in toronto. The dry mixes ranged from $6-8 bucks. I think the trace was the most expensive ($8). 

Ferts are a must, and like Ran said, I would start dosing a small amount of Po4, just a small amount.

Thread algae is brutal stuff, I currently have a case of it in my 50g. Its all about finding a balance that makes the plants out-compete the algae. Ferts + CO2 + Lights = Happy plants.

People have had mixed results when double dosing flourish excel. Depending on your fish it might be a tad dangerous. Just keep your eyes out for gasping fish. Harold at the menagerie had some in the moss tank he's got going, and he mentioned he was double dosing excel, and the cladophora (thread algae) was noticably gone.

I couldn't do it in my tank because the discus didn't take to the excel.


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## jrs

I found this link for ferts, I think I will start playing around with the concentrations tomorrow. I will try some peat plates in the filter as well.

http://rexgrigg.com/./ferts.htm


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## ranmasatome

isnt that double dosing of excel method only used for tanks without co2??
algae does not disappear with the lowering of ph btw..
the no.1 problem is Co2... its hard to keep constant with DIY but not impossible and that leads to a whole host of other problems like plant uptake and that leads to more algae...
next would then probably come fertilization..
holo.. once you switch to an automated co2.. and get the system stable on co2..you will find algae much more managable.
the other alternative would be just to slow everything down on the tank and go without co2.


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## Grey Legion

What kind of plants do you have, are they fast growing ??

I find the best cure for algae is to get alot of fat growing plants to compete for any nitrients in the water,worked for me in the past. I have not seen any algae in my 135G planted in over a year  

Mind you I don't add CO2 nor do I fertilize on a regular basis, I was bigtime into plants awhile ago but since have moved on to other interests.

Good luck beating that algae !!


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## jrs

I have cabomba, crypts, hairgrass, cuba, rotundafolia, vals, bacopa, cormbosa siamensis and red special (I think thats it). Just got some peat plates and the ingredients for the PMDD and will start playing around with the parameters today.


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## Plant Crazy

Thread algae can be a real pain in the butt. The threads break off very easily when you try to manually remove it, and these threads then settle onto other plants elsewhere in the tank. Even with proper macro levels (i.e., nitrates 5-10 ppm, phosphate 1-15, potassium), micros, and sufficient CO2, it can still quickly get out of control. The easiest fix I've found is the Excel overdose method (ie., dose 2 mL per 10 gallons once a day for several days). This is a TEMPORARY fix. It gives you time to get your water parameters into the proper range, so that when you finish overdosing Excel, you minimize the chances of the thread algae returning.


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## jrs

Plant crazy

I have a question for you. Why is that when I do a water change on my planted tank (50%) the level of photosynthesis dramitically increases (ie) seeing large amounts of streaming bubbles. I maintain the water parameters pretty well the only one I can't measure is potassium. I am using 2 DIY with hagen ladders and PMDD.

jrs


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## Plant Crazy

jrs said:


> Plant crazy
> 
> I have a question for you. Why is that when I do a water change on my planted tank (50%) the level of photosynthesis dramitically increases (ie) seeing large amounts of streaming bubbles. I maintain the water parameters pretty well the only one I can't measure is potassium. I am using 2 DIY with hagen ladders and PMDD.
> 
> jrs


Hey jrs,

This is what I believe is occuring. The tap water you're adding is quite saturated with oxygen and other gases. Since the aquarium water (when mixed with the new tap water) becomes saturated with oxygen, the excess amount being produced by the plants through photosynthesis becomes visible, since the water is already saturated with oxygen. Normally, the water in your aquarium is not fully saturated with oxygen, and thus you don't visualize oxygen bubbles streaming from your plants. Another effect that promotes bubbling is that the tap water becomes warmed up once it encounters the aquarium water, and the solubility of oxygen and other gases in water decreases as the temperature rises.

As for measuring potassium, don't worry about measuring it. We commonly only measure nitrate and potassium. Using PMDD, we dose KNO3 for nitrate, and K2SO4 for potassium, and separately dose KH2PO4. Together, this ensures that potassium is not a limiting macro.

The best way to tell if you're likely deficient in potassium is to look for characteristic 'pin holes' in the leaves of your plants. Only in this situation, would I consider adding extra potassium.

Good luck!

PS- PMDD is the best way to go in the long run for ferts. The reasons are that it's VERY cheap (~$15 for the dry mix components will last you several years!), it provides ALL the macros and micros that the plants need, and most importantly, it lets you customize your dosing according to your plants' needs. This is unlike the commercial bottled ferts that use generic dosing, which is often not sufficient for high lights, pressurized CO2 planted tanks.


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## Brian

Hey Plant_Crazy,

How do I go abouts making PMDD, what is your formula?

I don't like the ones on the net as they are so varied and I would rather get it from you.

All my amazon swords, although arn't too bad, are still pretty bad. Always have a bunch of dead leaVes and holes in them but they still grow.

I don't add any nutrients :S, just lights and fluorite substrate. I used to add nutrients until my gf deemed them too expensive, lol.


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## holocron

Brian said:


> Hey Plant_Crazy,
> 
> How do I go abouts making PMDD, what is your formula?


sounds like a great topic for a new thread


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## Plant Crazy

Hey Brian,

I'll start a new thread about PMDD In the 'Plants and Cultivation' forum.

Stan.


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## jrs

Just an update. Since I started using PMDD (see plant crazys' thread) I no longer have a thread algea problem. I did however see a tiny bit of beard algae the other day so I increased my excel dosage. I suppose beard algae should be left for another thread though.

jrs


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## imhandy2

I have used excel on my hair aglae for a 2 week period in my 75g planted tank. I used 20ml/day and 40ml/weekly water changes. It first turned red then white and disappeared. However it had no effect on my BBA even when I cranked my C02 to 88ppm, Even now it is thriving with my N03=20, PO4=1, Ph=6.5, C02=44, Fe=0.1 and 3.5wpg @ 12 hrs. I have just started dosing excel at 50ml/day, I have read of sucess at those doses against BBA. Here is a good thread on the use of excel for treating Algae.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/20172-excel-treatment-bba-experiences.html?highlight=excel+bba

Oh ya, I am new here.
It is good to find a local sight.

Regards,

Terry.


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## Plant Crazy

Hi Terry! Welcome! Wow, 50 mL/day of Excel in a 75 g is a very high dose. Do you have any fish in this tank as well?

In terms of BBA and Excel, some people have noted no effect on BBA with Excel overdose, whereas other people have. The reasons for this are not clear, unfortunately. Do you have carbon in your filter, or are you running a UV filter (these may bind up or degrade the Excel)?


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## jrs

WOW 88 ppm CO2! Weren't the fish turning blue and gulping for air?

I have similar readings for my 35g tank now (except around 10 ppm CO2). A few days ago I saw my first sustained pearling from many different plants. It lasted about three hours, wow what a sight  

jrs


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## ranmasatome

Plant Crazy said:


> As for measuring potassium, don't worry about measuring it. We commonly only measure nitrate and potassium.


???? isnt that sentence contradictory??? or did you mean phosphate?

The key to algae control is good plant growth.. not dosing all kinds of stuff and sometimes, like what i do, buying 1-200 malayan/cherry/yamato shrimps and dumping them into the tank.
hahaha..


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## imhandy2

Plant Crazy said:


> Hi Terry! Welcome! Wow, 50 mL/day of Excel in a 75 g is a very high dose. Do you have any fish in this tank as well?
> 
> In terms of BBA and Excel, some people have noted no effect on BBA with Excel overdose, whereas other people have. The reasons for this are not clear, unfortunately. Do you have carbon in your filter, or are you running a UV filter (these may bind up or degrade the Excel)?


Thanks plant crazy,
The planted tank has a good thread on the use of flourish and BBA and dosing at that level, I will try it and monitor my fish. No carbon and no uv either. I have bleach dipped everything and still I can't shake it. Just shy of starting over from scratch with new substrate and all, I am trying this dosing strength and hope for the best and not have any casualties.

Terry.


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## imhandy2

jrs said:


> WOW 88 ppm CO2! Weren't the fish turning blue and gulping for air?
> 
> I have similar readings for my 35g tank now (except around 10 ppm CO2). A few days ago I saw my first sustained pearling from many different plants. It lasted about three hours, wow what a sight
> 
> jrs


The pearling due to the C02 is just oxygen meaning that the plants reached a point of saturation and respiring 02 and at that point they are growing at their peak and the photosynthesis is in overdrive. At that point the plants should be out competing the algae for nutrients.
When I was running the C02 at 88, I had a few casualties with my corys but they were sensative already, my angels were gasping a bit but my most importantly my cardinals, neons and ram was ok.
I read that the excel contains a glutaraldehyde compound which is a form of formaldehyde. like I said I am at my last straw and giving it a shot.

Terry.


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## imhandy2

KN03 is potassium nitrate, that means it contains potassium and nitrate.
Unless you have a fish load to support your nitrate supply needed for your plants you don't need to dose K2S04(potassium sulphate), your potassium is in the KN03. Having said that, if you do have the fish load to support the nitrogen needed for your plants then you need to dose K2S04. Does that make sense at all ?
I also dose my phosphate with a fleet enema which is sodium phosphate, I get the cheap stuff for around $2.50, it is the exact brand and it lasts me 6 months, it is equipped with a droppertip and I dose 6 drops/day.


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## Brian

Lol, jrs is a chem teacher so he probably knows about the saturation point for CO2 where after that, no amount of CO2 will speed up the process of photosynthesis.


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## jrs

Try putting some of this in the tank. It is a great alternative to cabomba, looks good and grows like a weed. It should really start sucking up your nutrients.









Family Scrophulariaceae

Continent Asia

Region South-east Asia

Country of origin

Height 15-40 cm

Width 4-7 cm

Light requirements medium-very high

Temperature 22-28 °C

Hardness tolerance soft-hard

pH tolerance 5,5-8

Growth fast

Demands medium

Limnophila sessiliflora is a good and undemanding plant which is a good alternative to Cabomba, which demands a lot of light. The plant often grows leggy in poor light, but this can be counteracted to some extent by stimulating growth by CO2 addition. Most beautiful when planted in groups. In good growing conditions it sends out runners and spreads across the bottom. L. sessiliflora used to be called ''Ambulia''.


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## jrs

Yes I am a chem teacher but you know what? As I read up on aquariums and the more research I do, the more I realize just how many things that I do not know! 

jrs


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## imhandy2

jrs is a chem teacher, thats good to know.
Not saying that more C02 will make plants grow faster, just that it can be more saturated and compared to not using C02 plants do photosynthesis at a faster rate with the addition of C02. 
I hope I wasn't insulting anyone's intelegence but not everyone is a chem teacher and that this thread should teach others who are new to a planted aquaria.

Terry.


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## Plant Crazy

ranmasatome said:


> ???? isnt that sentence contradictory??? or did you mean phosphate?
> 
> The key to algae control is good plant growth.. not dosing all kinds of stuff and sometimes, like what i do, buying 1-200 malayan/cherry/yamato shrimps and dumping them into the tank.
> hahaha..


Sorry. Yes, you're correct, I meant phosphate.


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## Plant Crazy

jrs said:


> WOW 88 ppm CO2! Weren't the fish turning blue and gulping for air?
> jrs


Actually there's been a lot of discussion on various plant forums about revising the way in which we determine our CO2 levels. Traditionally, we've made a major assumption: that bicarbonate is the ONLY buffer in our tank. Then, by utilising the pH Vs kH tables (which were generated based upon the CO2-bicarbonate equilibrium), we approximately determined our CO2 level in ppm.

However, there are often other acids or buffers in our aquarium that are present. These include organic acids (e.g., from driftwood or peat moss), nitric acid (from excess nitrates), and phosphate buffer (e.g., from pH adjustment solutions). Having these present in any significant amount will invalidate the CO2 determination based upon the traditional pH - kH table.

To devise a more accurate method of determining CO2, someone suggested taking a sample of aquarium water, determining the pH of this sample, allowing the sample to sit for 12 h (so that any excess dissolved CO2 can dissipate), then determining the pH of the sample again. By measuring the pH difference and comparing it to a newly devised chart, an approximate measurement of the CO2 concentration can be determined. This method also accounts for any organic acids or buffers present in the water, since they will not dissipate from the water, and are still present when both pH readings are taken.

Holocron posted the links to the original discussion about this new method of CO2 determination: http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120

So, for example. If you take a sample of your tank water and it's pH 6.5. Then allow it to sit for 12h, measure the pH again and it's now pH 7.2, then this would work out to a 0.7 pH difference. Looking on the new pH chart: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2920&c=3 that works out to only 15 ppm of CO2. Under most circumstances, you want to aim for a pH drop of 1, which corresponds to 30 ppm of CO2.


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## imhandy2

jrs said:


> Terry
> 
> I sort of wish I wouldn't have said that I was a teacher at all. Believe me when I say that I am learning more from people here than I would ever be able to from some musty old book. One of the things I like about planted tanks is the fact that it is reality rather than "chalk and talk" theory.


jrs, kinda puts a little pressure on ah, don't worry about it.
I am a plumber, but wish I had a little chem background, I to am still learning but I guess we are never too old to learn.

Hey plant crazy, thats an excellent posting on measuring C02, that I didn't know. I will give it a try soon just for curiosity sake.

Terry.


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