# How do water conditioners work?



## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

Hoping to find some answers to these questions, I'm curious about how water conditioners such as Prime work (the basic chemistry behind them, in simple terms if possible), their active ingredients, and if there's anything left in the water that could cause problems if it builds up over time?


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Some of the more basic water conditioners that only contain sodium thiosulfate work on the following principle:

2 S2O32−(aq) + Cl2(aq) → S4O62−(aq) + 2 Cl−(aq) 

In this example, the chlorine is reduced to chloride while the thiosulfate is oxidized.

Other more complicated conditioners such as Prime often contain a mix of such agents.


----------



## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

So keeping with the basic example, does the resulting chloride pose any threat over time or is that sort of mitigated by that fact that you're doing water changes (ei doesn't get a chance to 'build up' over time?) 

And does oxidation = disperses in the air?


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Greg_o said:


> So keeping with the basic example, does the resulting chloride pose any threat over time or is that sort of mitigated by that fact that you're doing water changes (ei doesn't get a chance to 'build up' over time?)
> 
> And does oxidation = disperses in the air?


In general, the resulting chloride will not pose any threat over time. It is a normal cation that will be used up by plants.

Of course, having a lot in the water column would be bad (i.e. adding sodium chloride, or salt to your water would be generally bad).

Oxidation is a chemical process, and has nothing to do with physical dispersion.


----------



## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I think that's the formulae for chlorine but not for chloramine. Prime is supposed to do both. Not sure how though. I know that I've seen a formula for chloramine describes how Prime works. It's out there in the web.
Chlorine shouldn't be a concern because over time, they will automatcially dissipate into the air. Hence why in the old days, people just let thier water sit over night and it's perfectly fine for use the next day. However, with chloramine, that becomes a problem because the chlorine don't dissipate. You need about 4 to 7 days for dissipate to a safe level. It's the ammonia left behind that is a concern. I don't know how Prime locks the ammonia but suffice to say, I think they are still consume by the bacteria and hence nitrite becomes the by product which is still lethal to your fish. And ofcourse lastly, nitrate at the end (or a popular end point) of the biological cycle of our tank. This unfortunately, locks us into a frequent water change cycle. If we get lazy, the system breaks down with a build up of nitrate.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I hate to go off topic but.......
Do you need to treat RO water, with conditioner?

Hypothetically if I was to fill a tank up with RO water at the proper temp could I throw a fish in the tank and it would survive? Lets not get into the cycle tank issue.


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

TBemba said:


> I hate to go off topic but.......
> Do you need to treat RO water, with conditioner?
> 
> Hypothetically if I was to fill a tank up with RO water at the proper temp could I throw a fish in the tank and it would survive? Lets not get into the cycle tank issue.


You can add a stage in your RO/DI that contains a filter for chloramines.

Some people with ATO's for freshwater use just a 2 stage filter that will filter out the chlorine and carbon block.


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

TBemba said:


> I hate to go off topic but.......
> Do you need to treat RO water, with conditioner?
> 
> Hypothetically if I was to fill a tank up with RO water at the proper temp could I throw a fish in the tank and it would survive? Lets not get into the cycle tank issue.


As gucci17 mentioned, if you have a filter that removes chloramine, then you can use RO water without treating it.

However, I would not try keep an aquarium with only RO water; the water chemistry would swing all over the place.


----------



## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> As gucci17 mentioned, if you have a filter that removes chloramine, then you can use RO water without treating it.
> 
> However, I would not try keep an aquarium with only RO water; the water chemistry would swing all over the place.


For sure just got the unit and wondered for fresh what would you recommend as a mix? RO/Tap.

Do you need to start testing water all the time?

Maybe a new thread?

Sorry for hijacking this one


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

TBemba said:


> For sure just got the unit and wondered for fresh what would you recommend as a mix? RO/Tap.


Maybe start out with a 50/50 and go from there.



TBemba said:


> Do you need to start testing water all the time?


I would test for a few weeks to see where your water parameters are at with the addition of RO water.


----------



## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

How long does it take for the conditioner to work? Do things like temperature or agitation affect the effectiveness or speed?



Darkblade48 said:


> Maybe start out with a 50/50 and go from there.
> 
> I would test for a few weeks to see where your water parameters are at with the addition of RO water.


That's exactly what I'm doing so far (50/50) mix, testing as I go.


----------



## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Greg_o said:


> How long does it take for the conditioner to work? Do things like temperature or agitation affect the effectiveness or speed?
> 
> That's exactly what I'm doing so far (50/50) mix, testing as I go.


I add the conditioner just before I am refilling the tank and the main thing to worry about is that you try to have the temp of the new water close to that of the tank or you can shock your fish and kill em. I think the more agitation will mix it better but adding it to the tank before refill will do a good enough job IMO.

Hey I was wondering what do most ppl do with the waste water from the RO unit? Is it good for anything? could you use it as the 50/50 mix?


----------



## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

TBemba said:


> Hey I was wondering what do most ppl do with the waste water from the RO unit? Is it good for anything? could you use it as the 50/50 mix?


Personally mine goes down the drain. If I wasn't in a basement I would use it outside to water plants with. (I lug enough buckets around as it is, not going to start carrying them upstairs)

Wouldn't using it as your mix be counter productive?


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

I wouldn't reuse the waste water...I think we talked about it in another thread. It contains all the impurities you pulled out to make the RO/DI water. Why would you put it back in?


----------



## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I think we did as well, But wouldn't the RO waste water have the same impurities as tap water? or would it be more concentrated? doesn't the filters take out most impurities or is the waste water the flushing of the waters chemicals?

I guess I am not fully understanding the RO concept.


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Greg_o said:


> How long does it take for the conditioner to work? Do things like temperature or agitation affect the effectiveness or speed?


Chemically speaking, it should be instantaneous, but there are always issues of contact time, etc.

Give it a few minutes to be on the safe side.



TBemba said:


> But wouldn't the RO waste water have the same impurities as tap water? or would it be more concentrated? doesn't the filters take out most impurities or is the waste water the flushing of the waters chemicals?


The waste water would have the impurities that tap water has, but at much more concentrated levels.


----------



## bae (May 11, 2007)

The 'impurities' in the waste water are just the minerals in the source water but somewhat more concentrated. The waste water can be used for fish that like (or tolerate) harder water. Think about it -- if you're getting e.g. 1 gallon of RO to 4 gallons of waste, the waste water is only 25% higher in minerals than your tap water. For the mineral levels in Lake Ontario water, this isn't all that much. So if you're going to mix your RO 50/50 with tap, you should get the same results by mixing 60:40 RO to waste (assuming the above 1:4). Whether this is worth the hassle is another question.

Regarding water conditioners, the web page for the product ChlorAm-X has a detailed explanation of the chemistry.


----------



## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

bae said:


> ... the web page for the product ChlorAm-X has a detailed explanation of the chemistry.


Adding to that, Chloram-X has almost an identical properties as Prime. As from the smell and in powder form.

Going back to RO, it should be safe coming straight out of the RO tab. It's supposed to remove %80 - %90 of the mineral and chemical contents from the tab water (or so they advertised). But the brand that I tested mine on, it only removed about 3/4 of the mineral/chemicals. What I used to test on was a digital TDS meter. Tab water would normally hit 280 - 400 (yup, that's when they flush the pipes, I skip water change for a week when I get the 400 readings) tds level. RO water only gives me a 47 - 67 tds reading. There is zero trace of ammonia or chlorine for that mater.

There is another approach that I've seen another hobbyist used. He basically install a two stage filter and connect a garden hose at the end. Then all he does is turn on the hose and "voila" instant clean water.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------

