# Guppies are stressed--disease, crowded, or lonely?



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi everyone, I have a 10-gallon densely-planted tank that I had set up with a blue velvet neocaridina colony, pond snails (Physella acuta--bladder snails), and 3 male fancy guppies. Everyone did well for the first 3 months or so. Over the last month or so, the shrimp population started to take off, going from the initial 8 to around 30-40 at half-inch sizes or larger (incidentally, I can confidently endorse Eleocharis acicularis (dwarf hairgrass) as a great way to breed shrimp in a tank that has fish that might otherwise eat shrimplets). About two weeks ago, though, one of my male guppies stopped acting like his usual self--usually, he'd bully the other two guppies a bit in order to get first crack at food, would aggressively seek out food, explore the tank, etc, and then he stopped and started hanging out in one spot, with muted colors. He expressed less interest in food, and then over the course of a few days, started hiding behind plants, hanging out near the surface, then eventually died.

Now, I don't know how old these guppies were when I got them--they were already adults, so I can't rule out old age. I couldn't identify any visible signs of disease, and nothing was introduced to the tank that might have been carrying anything since his introduction 3 months ago. But his symptoms weren't inconsisten with Fish TB (eep), aside from not having an S-shaped spine, so I can't rule out something infectious. Since removing him after his death, the other two guppies perked up a bit (they didn't look too great either, and were hanging out near the soon-to-be-departed Angus, so maybe they were just concerned about their friend), but one has a slightly-humped spine and isn't displaying too much of an appetite nor a ton of activity (though he does explore a bit), and the other has a bit more of an appetite, but has been hiding behind plants near the water's surface and sulkily not exploring the tank. The remaining 2 guppies have been having bowel movements, so the issue is not constipation, and they *are* eating something. The tank is run with a sponge filter on a Tetra Whisper 20, and I'm not running CO2.

Tank parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5 ppm
pH: 7.2
GH: 10
KH: 2
Temp: 76 F

This turn the guppies took for the worse *roughly* coincides with the growth in the shrimp population. So I'm not sure if the guppies are suddenly feeling crowded by all the shrimp teenagers swimming around, if Angus was just old (or poor stock) and now the other two are lonely (since I know guppies tend to the social side) and therefore stressed, or if they're sick with something.

My plan _was_ to carefully monitor for a few weeks to see if they got better before replacing Angus with anything new, but if the problem is that they're lonely, maybe doing that is a bad idea, and I should get them new tank mates sooner rather than later.

Anyone have any ideas?

If I do get them new tankmates, should I get several more fancy guppies so they have friends their size, at risk of raising the tank's stocking level, or would something else like a single honey gourami or a group of endlers (or endler hybrids) be okay to help them feel more comfortable?


----------



## AustinLear (Apr 17, 2013)

Was this tank ever cycled? I'm not trying to accuse but I'm highly skeptical of the test results you have.

A ten gallon tank with that many fish/shrimp in it should show a much higher level of nitrates. Is your test kit expired? Are you following the instructions carefully? In my experience people tend to miss the nitrate testing details, namely that you need to shake the test liquid for at least 30 seconds (might even be 60s) before using it. 

I would, if I were you, definitely not add any more fish to that system until you figure out what is going on. A single sponge filter for that many animals is likely insufficient and I would conclude that you are either reading the tests wrong or performing them wrong.


----------



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

AustinLear said:


> Was this tank ever cycled? I'm not trying to accuse but I'm highly skeptical of the test results you have.
> 
> A ten gallon tank with that many fish/shrimp in it should show a much higher level of nitrates. Is your test kit expired? Are you following the instructions carefully? In my experience people tend to miss the nitrate testing details, namely that you need to shake the test liquid for at least 30 seconds (might even be 60s) before using it.
> 
> I would, if I were you, definitely not add any more fish to that system until you figure out what is going on. A single sponge filter for that many animals is likely insufficient and I would conclude that you are either reading the tests wrong or performing them wrong.


Yep, this tank was cycled before adding livestock. Keep in mind it's a heavily-planted tank--plants do a good job of eating nitrates (especially terrestrial plants like pothos, which is sitting on top of a piece of driftwood poking out of the tank), which is why nitrate level isn't a good indicator of when you need to do a water change in a planted tank. That's also why those "no fert no co2 no filter" planted tanks you see on youtube are able to run without killing their livestock--with enough plants, the plants will eat ammonia and nitrates, and the BB growing on all that surface area and in the substrate will eat whatever the plants don't (see Diana Walstad's writings on the topic). I do a 10-20% water change once a week, and the test kit is not expired, and I follow all the instructions. I can verify that the same test kit did test positive for ammonia and nitrites while I was cycling it 4 months ago. The second bottle of nitrate says it needs to be shaken for 30 seconds, but I usually shake for 60 just to be safe. It is a large-ish sponge filter--about 5 times the filtration surface area of the the AquaClear 30-gallon HOB I had on my 20-gallon when I first got into the hobby--and with the elbow joint I put on the outflow, the circulation in the tank is enough to see currents everywhere in the tank. And just to be safe, when I do my water tests, I test far from the filter.

I agree that my instinct should be not to add any livestock to a tank until I know what's going wrong. But if what's going wrong with these 2 guppies is lonelines... that may be a bad idea.


----------



## AustinLear (Apr 17, 2013)

alphaparrot said:


> Yep, this tank was cycled before adding livestock. Keep in mind it's a heavily-planted tank--plants do a good job of eating nitrates (especially terrestrial plants like pothos, which is sitting on top of a piece of driftwood poking out of the tank), which is why nitrate level isn't a good indicator of when you need to do a water change in a planted tank. That's also why those "no fert no co2 no filter" planted tanks you see on youtube are able to run without killing their livestock--with enough plants, the plants will eat ammonia and nitrates, and the BB growing on all that surface area and in the substrate will eat whatever the plants don't (see Diana Walstad's writings on the topic). I do a 10-20% water change once a week, and the test kit is not expired, and I follow all the instructions. I can verify that the same test kit did test positive for ammonia and nitrites while I was cycling it 4 months ago. The second bottle of nitrate says it needs to be shaken for 30 seconds, but I usually shake for 60 just to be safe. It is a large-ish sponge filter--about 5 times the filtration surface area of the the AquaClear 30-gallon HOB I had on my 20-gallon when I first got into the hobby--and with the elbow joint I put on the outflow, the circulation in the tank is enough to see currents everywhere in the tank. And just to be safe, when I do my water tests, I test far from the filter.
> 
> I agree that my instinct should be not to add any livestock to a tank until I know what's going wrong. But if what's going wrong with these 2 guppies is lonelines... that may be a bad idea.


Well, I have to say I'm stumped then.. Could just have been poor stock or already had some issues. I know I've had fish die, seemingly randomly, when all the parameters check out. I'd say up to you if you want to add more fish, sounds like you're doing everything right so I'm sorry for casting any doubts!


----------



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

Lol no worries, totally reasonable to do due diligence--that's why the first thing we do when our fish get sick is test the water, and then double-check the tests. 

Yeah, I'm stumped too, which is why my instinct is "wait and see"--if the others end up fine, then maybe it was old age or poor stock. But where I have substantially less experience is in recognizing the effects of loneliness on fish, and distinguishing those effects from being stressed by too many tankmates--my other fish are all community fish that swim in shoals substantially larger than their recommended minimums, and their tankmates are limited to other fish and snails. This is my first tank where the fish are so dramatically outnumbered by shrimp, so it's all a big experiment for me.

Which really leads to what for me is the crux of the question--not "why did my fish die", but "can fish get freaked out by having too many shrimp swimming around", and "if my fish *are* lonely, would that manifest in physical loss of health rather than just acting shy?"--with the corollary to the two, "do fish like guppies need tankmates who look like them to feel comfortable, or are other compatible fish sufficient?"


----------



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

Hmmm, actually I suppose there is a way to test this.... I can put a mirror up against the tank. If they're lonely, seeing other guppies in the reflection might perk them up, similar to how breeders train bettas to flare.


----------



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

So the remaining guppies did end up dying, about a week after the first (several water changes through that week, so the apparent coincidence between time to death and my usual water change schedule doesn't apply here). The last to die started to show signs of fin rot in the last two days before he died. The first two didn't have obvious visual symptoms of serious disease except for color and behavior. Since there was never anybody to nip (unless... <looks at shrimps>), and I never saw signs of an ammonia spike, it seems likely that this was pathogenic, and whatever it was attacked the fish in a variety of ways. I started the tank on pimafix and melafix the day before the last two died, so I'll finish the normal treatment course in case there are still pathogens floating around, but without an obvious diagnosis, and with the possibility that this was viral, this might just have to be a shrimp-only tank.

Guess the lesson is to always trust that wait-and-see instinct when a fish dies--stress from loneliness shouldn't kill within a week.


----------



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

To clarify, since on re-reading I realize questions may be raised about the meds being almost coincident with the demise of the other two guppies: they were already doing poorly, and the last to die (Gustave) had already started to show some fin rot. Since these meds can sometimes reduce oxygen levels in an aquarium, I stuck my old AquaClear 30 on the side with its minimum flow setting and a sponge pre-filter, and the extra circulation plus the sponge filter aeration *should* be helping with oxygenation. Harold died less than 12 hours after adding pimafix and melafix, and Gustave died some 30-40 hours after adding. I have no reason to believe that the meds are related to their deaths. It is far more likely that what killed Angus also killed Harold and Gustave.


----------



## Karin (May 21, 2019)

Sorry to hear. I lost 3 out of my original 9 guppies, and whilst those arent exactly great odds, it didn't even occur to me something may be off. (One died from poor transport, and two females giving birth - stressed because of a 3-1 m-f ratio) .
However the last female had upwards of 100 fry, so, if you need some "Guinea pigs" to test your water...
I rehomed all males and there's no sign whatsoever the females are missing them. The entire tank is more relaxed now with just five females (I was given more when I bought plants off someone. Go figure).


----------



## alphaparrot (Nov 28, 2017)

Karin said:


> However the last female had upwards of 100 fry, so, if you need some "Guinea pigs" to test your water...


Thanks for the offer! In the time since my last update, the shrimp population in the tank has grown, and is probably in the ballpark of 100 or more, though it's really hard to count with all the plants and hiding places (may need to sell/give away some shrimp soon....). With that many shrimp, I really do now think any fish, even guppies, would feel crowded in this tank and would push it to unsafe stocking levels. Which is just as well, since now I don't have to worry about whether the tank will ever be safe for fish without tearing it down.


----------

