# I have few questions about my platy. Can someone help?



## didi

Hello everyone,

I am new to the hobby of owning an aquarium and I have few questions.

Just a quick background:

I got my fish tank in the beginning of February and after I stabilized the water cycle for a week I introduced 8 fish into my tank. 2 Mollys, 4 Tetras, and 2 Platys. 

Unfortunately, I am down to four and I am afraid of my platy.
2 days ago, I lost one of my platys. It was always hiding and seemed stressed since the beginning. Only 3 days ago, it showed sings of rot fins and tail and the next day it died.

My other platy, however, used to play with it. Since the beginning, it has been very active and fun. Since my other platy died, however, this one seems stressed too. It has been hiding and it has no appetite. It is also gasping for air in the surface.

Can anyone help me?
Do you think my Goldy platy misses the other one? or is there a parasite?
Do you think I should get another Platy or two for it to have company?

My tetras seems to be doing fine, so I really dont think there is a problem with the water in the tank.


Thank you.


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## Darkblade48

How large is your aquarium?

Did you cycle your aquarium? Do you have test kits to test the parameters of the water (i.e. ammonia, nitrite, etc)? How often do you do water changes, and do you add a dechlorinator when changing the water?

Just because some fish are showing no signs of stress, while others are, does not exclude the possibility that there is something wrong with your water quality.


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## AquariAM

If you only 'cycled', which I suspect in your case just means you let it run for a week, nothing's actually happened. It doesn't work that way. 
At this point you likely have ammonia and nitrite stress/damage to the fish. I'd get a bottle of seachem stability and follow the directions (starting from the 'new tank' dose). That should sort you out, assuming you have the proper temperature filtration and setup.

There are hundreds of kinds of tetra. It's like saying I got a mammal for my tank. Not specific enough for us to know why the tetras aren't showing stress-- or its also possible that they are and you're not identifying it.

*My tetras seems to be doing fine, so I really dont think there is a problem with the water in the tank.*


















I've often thought things were one way and tested and found out they were somewhere else. Buy a full test kit. The Tetra one is pretty cheap @ $30 and is reliable. The API one is a bit better but also more expensive. More accurate.


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## dl88dl

didi said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am new to the hobby of owning an aquarium and I have few questions.
> 
> Just a quick background:
> 
> I got my fish tank in the beginning of February and after I stabilized the water cycle for a week I introduced 8 fish into my tank. 2 Mollys, 4 Tetras, and 2 Platys.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am down to four and I am afraid of my platy.
> 2 days ago, I lost one of my platys. It was always hiding and seemed stressed since the beginning. Only 3 days ago, it showed sings of rot fins and tail and the next day it died.
> 
> My other platy, however, used to play with it. Since the beginning, it has been very active and fun. Since my other platy died, however, this one seems stressed too. It has been hiding and it has no appetite. It is also gasping for air in the surface.
> 
> Can anyone help me?
> Do you think my Goldy platy misses the other one? or is there a parasite?
> Do you think I should get another Platy or two for it to have company?
> 
> My tetras seems to be doing fine, so I really dont think there is a problem with the water in the tank.
> 
> Thank you.


Welcome to the fishy hobby...

Anyway, not sure what method or what you use to cycle your tank...some systems don't get mature until 2 to 3 months later. So adding the 8 fishy to an un-cycle tank plus the feedings and fishy wastes all adds up to a high level of ammonia and nitrite and your filter can not handle this load of ammonia and nitrite since it is not cycled yet. The reason your fishy are gasping for air in the surface are due to ammonium nitrite/nitrate poisoning which burns the fish's gill membrane and caused them to suffocate and eventually death.
This is what you can do for now - change 50% of your water with aged water and add Seachem Prime 5 times the recommended dosage but if you don't have aged water then fill a bucket with water and add Prime also 5 times the recommended dosage...this will help lower the nitrite level. Add aquarium salt 1 teaspoon for every gallon of water this will also lower the nitrite level and will also make the ammonia/nitrite less toxic to the fish. Stop feeding the fish for 3 to 5 days...this again will lower the nitrite level. If you know someone who has a mature filter and you can borrow it until your filters is seeded with the good bacteria but if not then use Seachem Stability for the cycle. Do not buy any more fishy until your tank readings are acceptable.


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## Darkblade48

I question the effectiveness of products that claim they can cycle your tank; more often than not, they are just hit or miss.

You may be better off just carrying out large water changes on a daily basis until the cycle is over to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels within a reasonable leve.


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## didi

Thank you all for your replies 

Hi Anthony. My tank is 36 gallons and unfortunateky I havent purchased the test kit yet. I will soon order the one that recommended in one of the posts by AquariAm. It seems that I really need that.

I did complete a water change of 25% last night before I post my question.

My platy seems to be doing better today, however, It still has :reddish gills"

I do add into the fish tank the reccomended salt dose, bacteria supplement and water stabilizer. I can't see waht I am doing wrong.


Is my platy still in danger??? 



Thank you again,

Nice to meeting you all!


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## Darkblade48

didi said:


> My platy seems to be doing better today, however, It still has :reddish gills"


This is indicative of either parasites, or (more likely, with your current situation), burning due to ammonia.



didi said:


> I do add into the fish tank the reccomended salt dose, bacteria supplement and water stabilizer. I can't see waht I am doing wrong.


Most of the bacterial supplements sold do not work; as a result, your tank is likely not cycled. This means that there are no beneficial bacteria (or rather, insufficient beneficial bacteria) present to break down the ammonia into its byproducts. As a result, the ammonia remains in the water column, where it can damage the gills of fish.



didi said:


> Is my platy still in danger???


Likely; I would keep doing 25% water changes on a daily basis in order to ensure that the ammonia levels stay (relatively) low while you wait for the tank to cycle.


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## dl88dl

Darkblade48 said:


> Likely; I would keep doing 25% water changes on a daily basis in order to ensure that the ammonia levels stay (relatively) low while you wait for the tank to cycle.


Keep doing the 25% WC is ok but isn't that cycling a tank with fish. We can not put our fishy friend through this kind of cruelty...can we? Might also take a long time to cycle this tank with this method.
A good way is to find mature filter and run them together and this will take 1 to 3 weeks to complete the cycle. A better way is to put your fishy in a bucket with air stone and again you have to get a sponge from a mature filter and squeeze that sponge in the tank without the fishy in it and the water will turn very dark brown and in 1 or 2 hours your tank will be crystal clear and the filter will be seeded and all the items in the tank are also seeded and the cycle is completed in 1 or 2 hours. This is the best and the fastest way to cycle any tank and I have done this about 50 to 60 times now. I have many extra sponges in my sump and they are full of the good bacteria incase I need it. If you can not find someone closer to you then I can bring my sponge and cycle your tank for you but I live far from you. It is best to do it as soon as you can in order to save those fishy.
Btw, those fishy that are still alive it might be too late to save them if the burning of the gill membrane is too severe. Some might survive but will never be 100% again.


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## Darkblade48

dl88dl said:


> Keep doing the 25% WC is ok but isn't that cycling a tank with fish. We can not put our fishy friend through this kind of cruelty...can we? Might also take a long time to cycle this tank with this method.


I agree; this is not the best way, as it would be cycling with fish.

Unfortunately, unless the OP is able to find some used filter media with established bacteria, there is no other option. Until used filter media is found, doing daily 25% water changes is the best stop-gap solution to keep ammonia and nitrite levels down.


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## dl88dl

Darkblade48 said:


> I agree; this is not the best way, as it would be cycling with fish.
> 
> Unfortunately, unless the OP is able to find some used filter media with established bacteria, there is no other option. Until used filter media is found, doing daily 25% water changes is the best stop-gap solution to keep ammonia and nitrite levels down.


I am sure someone from GTAA that lives near him in North York will have a mature sponge and can help him and his fishy out.
Btw, I agree that the 25% WC is a great idea until he gets some help


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## Chris S

dl88dl said:


> Stop feeding the fish for 3 to 5 days...this again will lower the nitrite level.


A fish that doesn't eat, is a fish that will die. Not feeding is a good way to go about inducing more stress and withholding energy needed to fight off any current problems, whatever they may be.



Darkblade48 said:


> I question the effectiveness of products that claim they can cycle your tank; more often than not, they are just hit or miss.


Me too, but Seachem Stability really does work. I experimented with it on seven tanks, with great success. I've been converted into a believer! 

That Big Al's crap and all the other stuff out there is just a gimmick though - I have had "zero" success with any of that. Just throwing your money away there in my opinion.


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## dl88dl

Chris S said:


> A fish that doesn't eat, is a fish that will die. Not feeding is a good way to go about inducing more stress and withholding energy needed to fight off any current problems, whatever they may be.
> 
> Do you know when a fish is exposed to high level of ammonia/nitrites and their very fragile gill membrane are burned and have problem breathing even if you feed it, it will try and eat the food some will made it into the stomach and some will be exiting via the gill. You do not want to add to this high level poisoning. Not eating for 3 to 5 days will stress them but higher level of ammonia/nitrite will kill them. The only way to get rid of this high level is a completed cycle but since we don't have that then 100% WC will get rid of the high level but it will come back in no time and a 100% WC will also kill your sick fish.
> Btw, if the tank was cycled then I would recommend to feed lightly


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> Chris S said:
> 
> 
> 
> A fish that doesn't eat, is a fish that will die. Not feeding is a good way to go about inducing more stress and withholding energy needed to fight off any current problems, whatever they may be.
> 
> Do you know when a fish is exposed to high level of ammonia/nitrites and their very fragile gill membrane are burned and have problem breathing even if you feed it, it will try and eat the food some will made it into the stomach and some will be exiting via the gill. You do not want to add to this high level poisoning. Not eating for 3 to 5 days will stress them but higher level of ammonia/nitrite will kill them. The only way to get rid of this high level is a completed cycle but since we don't have that then 100% WC will get rid of the high level but it will come back in no time and a 100% WC will also kill your sick fish.
> Btw, if the tank was cycled then I would recommend to feed lightly
> 
> 
> 
> Chris services $10K+ marine setups for a living. I imagine 'he knows' about ammonia and nitrite burns.
> 
> The OP should have gotten cycled media from someone by now, or stability.
> 
> a 100% water change doesn't do anything. You'll have ammonia and nitrite again in an hour. Uncycled is uncycled.
> 
> _ it will try and eat the food some will made it into the stomach and some will be exiting via the gill_
> 
> That has nothing to do with ammonia nitrite irritation.
> 
> Total misinformed post... Sorry.
Click to expand...


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## Chris S

dl88dl said:


> Do you know when a fish is exposed to high level of ammonia/nitrites and their very fragile gill membrane are burned and have problem breathing even if you feed it, it will try and eat the food some will made it into the stomach and some will be exiting via the gill. You do not want to add to this high level poisoning. Not eating for 3 to 5 days will stress them but higher level of ammonia/nitrite will kill them. The only way to get rid of this high level is a completed cycle but since we don't have that then 100% WC will get rid of the high level but it will come back in no time and a 100% WC will also kill your sick fish.
> Btw, if the tank was cycled then I would recommend to feed lightly


Just saying: Best thing to do is rectify the problem at hand, not try to minimize waste production from the fish via lack of nutrition.

Even adding Seachem Prime to the water will bind ammonia and nitrite, if you need a temporary solution. What is needed is a seeded filter to rectify the problem - if that is what the problem is here.


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## dl88dl

Chris S said:


> Just saying: Best thing to do is rectify the problem at hand, not try to minimize waste production from the fish via lack of nutrition.
> 
> Even adding Seachem Prime to the water will bind ammonia and nitrite, if you need a temporary solution. What is needed is a seeded filter to rectify the problem - if that is what the problem is here.


Hey Chris, I do agree with you that rectifying the problem is the best solution but I think those fishy is not going to made it anyway since a solution is not available. We all learn from our mistake.


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> dl88dl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris services $10K+ marine setups for a living. I imagine 'he knows' about ammonia and nitrite burns.
> 
> The OP should have gotten cycled media from someone by now, or stability.
> 
> a 100% water change doesn't do anything. You'll have ammonia and nitrite again in an hour. Uncycled is uncycled.
> 
> _ it will try and eat the food some will made it into the stomach and some will be exiting via the gill_
> 
> That has nothing to do with ammonia nitrite irritation.
> 
> Total misinformed post... Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey AM, I don't know where you are coming from saying "Chris services $10K+ marine setups for a living" Does that make him know all. We all are still learning in this hobby but if you listen you might pickup a trick or two.
> I am sure Chris has a vast knowlegde in this hobby but that does not meant he knows all. Btw, do you know most sick will not eat and if you see them eating try and watch the gill and you will see very tiny food particle will come out from there and these food particle with add to the ammonia/nitrite level. So you are saying uneaten food will not cause ammonia/nitrite to increase.
> Sometimes when I read your posts I wonder how long you actually have been in this hobby...LOL
> 
> Btw, this what you say about bloat - "Usually happens when they're improperly fed. It's not really an infection of anything AFAIK.. J?"
> this one is a classic...misinformed post...I love it...It's all good
Click to expand...


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> AquariAM said:
> 
> 
> 
> *We all are still learning in this hobby but if you listen you might pickup a trick or two.*
> 
> Right back at ya.
> 
> *I am sure Chris has a vast knowlegde in this hobby but that does not meant he knows all. *
> 
> I'm pretty sure it means he knows more than you
> 
> *come out from there and these food particle with add to the ammonia/nitrite level. *
> 
> Everyone knows that
> 
> *
> So you are saying uneaten food will not cause ammonia/nitrite to increase.*
> 
> No I'm saying you like to state the obvious.
> 
> *Sometimes when I read your posts I wonder how long you actually have been in this hobby...LOL
> *
> almost ten years. That's why I don't make propositions like letting a fish swim around in its own ammonia and pretending its going to be made better by not feeding it. I don't live in 1988.
> 
> Bottom line, the uncycled tank thing can be fixed in an hour. Stability works as advertised. Several people would give the OP filter media that is cycled. It's a given. If it hasn't been adressed the OP isn't paying attention.
> 
> Not feeding a sick fish is a bad move. The logical move here is to adress the ammonia and nitrite issue and continue to feed the fish.
> 
> Your idea of letting the tank finish cycling with the fish in it and not feeding it is ludicrous and by far the worst idea proposed in this thread. It's stupid. OP- get cycled media from someone and feed the fish.
> 
> *Btw, this what you say about bloat - "Usually happens when they're improperly fed. It's not really an infection of anything AFAIK.. J?"
> this one is a classic...misinformed post...I love it...It's all good*
> 
> Whoever wrote that is misinformed indeed.
> Wasn't me.
Click to expand...


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> dl88dl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AquariAM said:
> 
> 
> 
> *We all are still learning in this hobby but if you listen you might pickup a trick or two.*
> 
> Right back at ya.
> 
> *I am sure Chris has a vast knowlegde in this hobby but that does not meant he knows all. *
> 
> I'm pretty sure it means he knows more than you
> 
> *come out from there and these food particle with add to the ammonia/nitrite level. *
> 
> Everyone knows that
> 
> *
> So you are saying uneaten food will not cause ammonia/nitrite to increase.*
> 
> No I'm saying you like to state the obvious.
> 
> *Sometimes when I read your posts I wonder how long you actually have been in this hobby...LOL
> *
> almost ten years. That's why I don't make propositions like letting a fish swim around in its own ammonia and pretending its going to be made better by not feeding it. I don't live in 1988.
> 
> Bottom line, the uncycled tank thing can be fixed in an hour. Stability works as advertised. Several people would give the OP filter media that is cycled. It's a given. If it hasn't been adressed the OP isn't paying attention.
> 
> Not feeding a sick fish is a bad move. The logical move here is to adress the ammonia and nitrite issue and continue to feed the fish.
> 
> Your idea of letting the tank finish cycling with the fish in it and not feeding it is ludicrous and by far the worst idea proposed in this thread. It's stupid. OP- get cycled media from someone and feed the fish.
> 
> *Btw, this what you say about bloat - "Usually happens when they're improperly fed. It's not really an infection of anything AFAIK.. J?"
> this one is a classic...misinformed post...I love it...It's all good*
> 
> Whoever wrote that is misinformed indeed.
> Wasn't me.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you are putting words in my mouth...you can read all my posts from above...I never said that - Your idea of letting the tank finish cycling with the fish in it and not feeding it is ludicrous and by far the worst idea proposed in this thread. It's stupid. OP- get cycled media from someone and feed the fish.
> You deny you ever said that...this what you say about bloat - "Usually happens when they're improperly fed. It's not really an infection of anything AFAIK.. J?"
> Here is the link - http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13089&page=2
> 
> You really think you know that much after 10 years in this hobby...you are wrong
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> AquariAM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dl88dl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you are putting words in my mouth...you can read all my posts from above...I never said that - Your idea of letting the tank finish cycling with the fish in it and not feeding it is ludicrous and by far the worst idea proposed in this thread. It's stupid. OP- get cycled media from someone and feed the fish.
> You deny you ever said that...this what you say about bloat - "Usually happens when they're improperly fed. It's not really an infection of anything AFAIK.. J?"
> Here is the link - http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13089&page=2
> 
> You really think you know that much after 10 years in this hobby...you are wrong
> 
> 
> 
> IN MALAWIS. RTT
> It's helpful when you allude to another thread, to actually mention that. Most people aren't psychic.
> Yes, in malawis, typically bloat is caused by feeding a vegetarian fish too much protein.
> 
> What planet are you on? Listen man, if you want someone to insult, write yourself a script and go stand in the mirror.
> 
> I can tell you what I know after ten years-- this hobby is rife with people who can't read (ie, thinking that malawi bloat, and assuming you know anything about malawis, which you clearly don't, that I will know you're talking about another thread, and that said thread has anything to do with this) , and more than you.
> 
> Do me a favour, don't respond to my posts again. I'll extend the same courtesy to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> dl88dl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AquariAM said:
> 
> 
> 
> IN MALAWIS. RTT
> It's helpful when you allude to another thread, to actually mention that. Most people aren't psychic.
> Yes, in malawis, typically bloat is caused by feeding a vegetarian fish too much protein.
> 
> What planet are you on? Listen man, if you want someone to insult, write yourself a script and go stand in the mirror.
> 
> I can tell you what I know after ten years-- this hobby is rife with people who can't read (ie, thinking that malawi bloat, and assuming you know anything about malawis, which you clearly don't, that I will know you're talking about another thread, and that said thread has anything to do with this) , and more than you.
> 
> Do me a favour, don't respond to my posts again. I'll extend the same courtesy to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok now you are being offensive. Let me tell you again that bloat is a disease -
> Bloat is generally believed to be caused by a protozoal parasite complicated by bacterial infection. The most common cause of this disease is stress and the first sign of illness is not eating. Stress can be caused by such things as transport, netting, poor water quality, insufficient diet, over feeding, a lack of hiding places, an improper diet and adding too much salt to the water. Once a fish becomes afflicted with bloat it is often fatal but if it is treated right away then it is possible to cure a fish with bloat.
> Ten years in this hobby is not bad try 41 years.
> It is still a classic
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> AquariAM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dl88dl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok now you are being offensive. Let me tell you again that bloat is a disease -
> Bloat is generally believed to be caused by a protozoal parasite complicated by bacterial infection. The most common cause of this disease is stress and the first sign of illness is not eating. Stress can be caused by such things as transport, netting, poor water quality, insufficient diet, over feeding, a lack of hiding places, an improper diet and adding too much salt to the water. Once a fish becomes afflicted with bloat it is often fatal but if it is treated right away then it is possible to cure a fish with bloat.
> Ten years in this hobby is not bad try 41 years.
> It is still a classic
> 
> 
> 
> Dave, I hugely respect your four decades of experience, but malawi bloat, and bloat, are not the same thing. Malawis can get bloat. They can also get malawi bloat. Malawi bloat simply refers to a bulging vegetarian malawi cichlid with a blocked digestive tract.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not actually bloat- it's just a term people in malawis use to describe what is essentially chronic constipation causing bloating- just like can happen in humans, and it is typically believed to be caused by feeding the vegetarian fish too much protein and not enough fiber. (the above fish is a Tanganyikan... but it was the best shot I could find and tropheus suffer from this condition in a very similar way when mis-fed)
> 
> as opposed to bloat caused by parasite
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not an encyclopedia, I may be wrong, but this is what I have gathered from years of conversations and some unfortunate personal experience way back.
> As I PM'd you I'm sorry for the snapping back and forth
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Abner

If is one thing i notice about this forum is that we all start out with the best intentions when someone has a problem in their tank but then we break down and start criticizing each other suggestions..we all go about handling situations in our own manner doesn't mean that it is wrong, why don't you guys ask if this person has what is needed to go about doing it your way? anyways the way i see it is you guys need to stop argueing cuz this thread ain't about who knows more. Now my suggestion is taking into consideration that being new you may not have extra buckets and air pumps is maybe try to get someone who can take care of the fish for while so you can get this problem fixed if not then all you can do is try to do it with the fish in there. Get the seachem and a test kit, do a 30% waterchange daily till you are where you need to be. I may not know as much as other folks on here but i keep my fishy friends alive.


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## Ciddian

Happy smiling people....people.. 

and...well if you can't the ignore button is just under the person's profile.


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## dl88dl

Abner said:


> If is one thing i notice about this forum is that we all start out with the best intentions when someone has a problem in their tank but then we break down and start criticizing each other suggestions..we all go about handling situations in our own manner doesn't mean that it is wrong, why don't you guys ask if this person has what is needed to go about doing it your way? anyways the way i see it is you guys need to stop argueing cuz this thread ain't about who knows more. Now my suggestion is taking into consideration that being new you may not have extra buckets and air pumps is maybe try to get someone who can take care of the fish for while so you can get this problem fixed if not then all you can do is try to do it with the fish in there. Get the seachem and a test kit, do a 30% waterchange daily till you are where you need to be. I may not know as much as other folks on here but i keep my fishy friends alive.


Hey, if you are keeping your fishy friends alive then I think you know more than you think. I don't like to call it an arguement but more like a challenge...sounds better anyway Keep up the good work


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## dl88dl

Ciddian said:


> Happy smiling people....people..
> 
> and...well if you can't the ignore button is just under the person's profile.


It's all good...we took it offline and came up with an aggreement


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## Abner

dl88dl said:


> It's all good...we took it offline and came up with an aggreement


yeah i saw you guys posted somewhere else on here looks like you guys are ole chums lol...


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## dl88dl

Abner said:


> yeah i saw you guys posted somewhere else on here looks like you guys are ole chums lol...


LOL...you should see me on PN...over there I almost have 11,000 posts 
I friend of my told me about GTAA 3 years ago but I did not find time to join since I was too busy posting at PN. But since I joined GTAA I spent most of my time here and not much at PN or AP. I like it here better...for example they have an "Unofficial Meet and Greet!" you don't normally find this at other forums and if you do it might be oversea and too far to attend. But it is too bad that I will be away on vacation the last week of April until end of May. Hopefully I can make the next one.


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> LOL...you should see me on PN...over there I almost have 11,000 posts
> I friend of my told me about GTAA 3 years ago but I did not find time to join since I was too busy posting at PN. But since I joined GTAA I spent most of my time here and not much at PN or AP. I like it here better...for example they have an "Unofficial Meet and Greet!" you don't normally find this at other forums and if you do it might be oversea and too far to attend. But it is too bad that I will be away on vacation the last week of April until end of May. Hopefully I can make the next one.


I was at one where we all got a little happy and drank too much. It's funny to see a bunch of buzzed people talking about shrimp . Always catches some weird looks from the wait staff when there's a group of people going "I feed my shrimp X"

There was a guy named MTDrew on PN years ago. Back in like 2003/4/ we used to go on road trips. He'd set it up with like 3 cars and we'd hit every LFS in toronto through the course of an entire day. One time we all agreed to get woodshrimp and that way we could learn from our collective experiences. Stupid me put mine in a 38 with a large p. canaliculata snail. Everything was great for a couple of weeks. Then the shrimp went into moult.. next to the snail. The snail ate the shrimp's face... And that was that for me and wood shrimp.


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## freddymp

Welcome to the hobby didi...

One thing that you may want to consider it to get a potted underwater plant. The potting material should have plenty of good bacteria. This will help with cycling your tank. And you have a nice plant as a bonus.

Freddy


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## didi

*Please be patient with me*

Hi and Thank you all for your replies.

I just need to inform you that I am not only new to this hobby but also new to the whole forum experience. I am overwhelmed by all these posts and I missed some of them too. I feel very embarrassed... I appreciate your help. I f am not paying attention and not replying to your posts sooner it is because I am very confused...



> If you only 'cycled', which I suspect in your case just means you let it run for a week, nothing's actually happened. It doesn't work that way.
> At this point you likely have ammonia and nitrite stress/damage to the fish. I'd get a bottle of seachem stability and follow the directions


Yes, AquariAm. That's what I did, once I received my aquarium I put tab water in and used a dechlorinator and had the filter run for a week. 
What do you mean by "cycle" the tank???
I ordered that seachem stability. I am waiting for it



> There are hundreds of kinds of tetra


I have 1 Neon Tetra and 2 glowlight Tetras



> Most of the bacterial supplements sold do not work; as a result, your tank is likely not cycled. This means that there are no beneficial bacteria (or rather, insufficient beneficial bacteria) present to break down the ammonia into its byproducts. As a result, the ammonia remains in the water column, where it can damage the gills of fish.


I am using that TopFin Bacteria supplement I do WC and I have Aqueon Power Filter 30 in my 36g Tank. Aren't these good?



> A better way is to put your fishy in a bucket with air stone and again you have to get a sponge from a mature filter and squeeze that sponge in the tank without the fishy in it and the water will turn very dark brown and in 1 or 2 hours your tank will be crystal clear and the filter will be seeded and all the items in the tank are also seeded and the cycle is completed in 1 or 2 hours.


I have a bucket, I dont have an air stone and I don't have a sponge from a mature filter  I dont know anyone that can give me one. Also, do i need to cycle my tank everytime i change my filter? I know the filter I use is full with bacteria, right? When I change the filter, isnt the water condition bad again?



> I have many extra sponges in my sump and they are full of the good bacteria incase I need it. If you can not find someone closer to you then I can bring my sponge and cycle your tank for you but I live far from you.


Thank you very much. I keep doing water changes. It's too much to ask from you to do.



> Btw, those fishy that are still alive it might be too late to save them if the burning of the gill membrane is too severe. Some might survive but will never be 100% again.


If that happens, I will be devastated 



> One thing that you may want to consider it to get a potted underwater plant. The potting material should have plenty of good bacteria. This will help with cycling your tank.


Thank's. can you please be more specific. Will that potted plant be for freshwater? Can you recommend something???
Thank you


----------



## AquariAM

didi said:


> Hi and Thank you all for your replies.
> 
> I just need to inform you that I am not only new to this hobby but also new to the whole forum experience. I am overwhelmed by all these posts and I missed some of them too. I feel very embarrassed... I appreciate your help. I f am not paying attention and not replying to your posts sooner it is because I am very confused...
> 
> Yes, AquariAm. That's what I did, once I received my aquarium I put tab water in and used a dechlorinator and had the filter run for a week.
> What do you mean by "cycle" the tank???
> I ordered that seachem stability. I am waiting for it
> 
> I have 1 Neon Tetra and 2 glowlight Tetras
> 
> I am using that TopFin Bacteria supplement I do WC and I have Aqueon Power Filter 30 in my 36g Tank. Aren't these good?
> 
> I have a bucket, I dont have an air stone and I don't have a sponge from a mature filter  I dont know anyone that can give me one. Also, do i need to cycle my tank everytime i change my filter? I know the filter I use is full with bacteria, right? When I change the filter, isnt the water condition bad again?
> 
> Thank you very much. I keep doing water changes. It's too much to ask from you to do.
> 
> If that happens, I will be devastated
> 
> Thank's. can you please be more specific. Will that potted plant be for freshwater? Can you recommend something???
> Thank you


You need to keep tetras in groups of at least seven, with the exception of serpae tetras and blind cave tetras, serpaes being agressive and working ok in pairs and caves not really knowing that they aren't with other caves and easily mixing with other similarly shaped tetras.

You never change the filter. Those cartridges are BS as far as most of us are concerned. Just get a sponge and stuff it in there and it'll last for years. Every month or so very gently squeeze it out in tank water in a bucket to get a bit of the gunk off.

(get a sponge . Aquaclear sponges will work best IMO. Get a 110 sponge, cut the piece you need and then you have the left over to use later or to make a prefilter for your filter.

By cycling the tank I mean allowing the bacteria (which is in the air) to enter the tank , build up to sufficient levels eating the ammonia, then another kind of bacteria shows up to eat the nitrite the first bacteria makes, and makes nitrate, and then you do water changes to keep the nitrate down. Google aquariums, nitrogen cycle, beneficial bacteria, nitrification.

The top fin supplement is worthless.

Also, you're fighting a clock here. That neon is likely going to die regardless by now the other two 50/50. Go to big als in scarborough and buy the seachem stability, or go to someone who lives in scarborough and get a chunk of filter sponge. I can give you some for 3 fish you hardly need much and I can spare it. Im sure someones closer to you though. You're slightly underfiltered for that tank. You might want to add a second filter.


----------



## Abner

i'm at lawrence and allen road if that is close to you i would be happy to help you with the sponge from my filter was gonna change it next week anyways. let me know


----------



## dl88dl

Abner said:


> i'm at lawrence and allen road if that is close to you i would be happy to help you with the sponge from my filter was gonna change it next week anyways. let me know


That would be the best if he can pickup the sponge from you.
Btw, I agree with AM that those cartridges are over price and over rated. Once you replace the cartridges with new ones you will lose all those good bacteria. AC sponges last a long time.


----------



## didi

> You need to keep tetras in groups of at least seven


I wanted to buy more but initially I bought 2 neon tetras, 2 glowlight tetras, 2 black mollys, one sunset platy (this is the one that is still alive and has reddish gills) and one Red Wag Platy. I though I am gonna have them till they become adults and I didnt want to overcrowd my tank.

BTW, Is it true that it should be an inch of fish/ gallon of water?

I want to buy more, but i better deal with the tank first 



> You never change the filter


I actually did that few weeks ago and after that I lost a molly and my red wag platy 



> make a prefilter for your filter


What do you mean by that?



> I can give you some for 3 fish you hardly need much and I can spare


 So, if i get some sponge from you or someone else, do i have to take my fishy out of the tank for few hours, squeeze it into my tank, and let the water accumulate more bacteria and then put the fish back in?
While doing that, should i keep my current filter there?

How long will it take time for the Aquaclear sponge to become full with bacteria if it is new?



> You're slightly underfiltered for that tank


Is that so even if I use sponge?



> i'm at lawrence and allen road if that is close to you i would be happy to help you with the sponge from my filter was gonna change it next week anyways. let me know


Thank you. That will be great  Can I pick it up tomorrow?
Again, should I put that sponge in my filter or should I do the method mentioned above ( taking the fishy out of the tank, etc?) 
Let me know.

Thank you all


----------



## didi

Also, 
when do i have to add Seachem Stability? Is it everytime I do WC?
If I use Seachem Stability, should I stop using the TopFIn Water Conditioner and the TopFin Supplement?

Thank you


----------



## dl88dl

didi said:


> I wanted to buy more but initially I bought 2 neon tetras, 2 glowlight tetras, 2 black mollys, one sunset platy (this is the one that is still alive and has reddish gills) and one Red Wag Platy. I though I am gonna have them till they become adults and I didnt want to overcrowd my tank.
> 
> BTW, Is it true that it should be an inch of fish/ gallon of water?
> 
> I want to buy more, but i better deal with the tank first
> 
> I actually did that few weeks ago and after that I lost a molly and my red wag platy
> 
> What do you mean by that?
> 
> So, if i get some sponge from you or someone else, do i have to take my fishy out of the tank for few hours, squeeze it into my tank, and let the water accumulate more bacteria and then put the fish back in?
> While doing that, should i keep my current filter there?
> 
> How long will it take time for the Aquaclear sponge to become full with bacteria if it is new?
> 
> Is that so even if I use sponge?
> 
> Thank you. That will be great  Can I pick it up tomorrow?
> Again, should I put that sponge in my filter or should I do the method mentioned above ( taking the fishy out of the tank, etc?)
> Let me know.
> 
> Thank you all


If you take the fishy out in a bucket you must have some kind air for them and try and keep the temperature the same as the tank. If you can not do that then just put that sponge in your filter must easier and your water will improve but the cycle might still take a day or 2 or more to complete. When you pickup that sponge make sure you puy it in a bag and submerge in his tank water and try and put the sponge in your filter within 1 hour. Good luck 
Btw, when you cut a piece of sponge and put in the in-take tube of your filter is call a pre-filter this is good if the HOB filter is very powerful and you have little fishy or frys so they don't get suck up the tube. Always better to over filtration than under-filtration...more room for errors.


----------



## dl88dl

didi said:


> Also,
> when do i have to add Seachem Stability? Is it everytime I do WC?
> If I use Seachem Stability, should I stop using the TopFIn Water Conditioner and the TopFin Supplement?
> 
> Thank you


If you get that mature sponge you don't need Seachem Stability just use the water conditioner. 
Btw, I think Seachem Prime water conditioner is much better than TopFin IMO


----------



## InSpirit

*upgrade your filtration*

I think you are getting TMI and should just wait and let things stabilize. I wouldn't modify the HOB filter. I would add filtration whether it be two nice big Hydrosponge V's driven by a decent air pump or if you want to make your aquarium a nice show tank and think sponges are ugly then I'd buy a canister filter. Something like an Eheim 2213. You can get one used in the 'buy and sell' section loaded with media sometimes as cheap as $60. It's a far superior filter to hang on the back filters. It may be as simple as overfeeding causing all the problems. Just a little is far better than too much.


----------



## didi

*My fishy are still alive *

Hi there 



> I wouldn't modify the HOB filter


What does HOB mean? You are probably referring to the filter I use.
Why wouldn't you modify it?



> If you get that mature sponge you don't need Seachem Stability just use the water conditioner.


I am not sure if I am getting that mature sponge today. I am thinking, to buy one and start from the beginning. Could you please tell me, if I use a new sponge, do i have to use the Seachem Stability?
Also, is that aquaclear sponge same as aquaclear foam?

Is that the one I should buy?

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp17973/si1315974/cl0/aquaclear50200foaminsertvalue3pack



> Aquaclear sponges will work best IMO. Get a 110 sponge


What does the number 110 represent?

Do you guys really think I need extra filtration?

I saw a post few days ago about aquaponic. I thought I could try that in few weeks once I stabilize my tank.

What do you think about that?


----------



## AquariAM

didi said:


> Also,
> when do i have to add Seachem Stability? Is it everytime I do WC?
> If I use Seachem Stability, should I stop using the TopFIn Water Conditioner and the TopFin Supplement?
> 
> Thank you


 Bacteria supplements and water conditioner are two different things. One breaks chloramine (ammonia and chlorine in the tap water) apart, knocks the chlorine out of the water, and (in good conditioners) binds up the ammonia, usually with an extra hydrogen ion, so that it can be processed by your biofilter without the extra ammonia from a water change bothering your fish.

Bacterial supplements are for new tanks to help the biofilter to establish more quickly. They do not affect chlorine or chloramine.

Keep using the water conditioner, but I suggest getting Tetra Aquasafe or Seachem Prime (which is highly economical) instead of the Top Fin as they are higher quality. Don't use the Top Fin supplement only use the Seachem Stability and remember to always shake very thoroughly before using.

The instructions for stability are on the bottle. Start from "new tank" and follow the directions to the letter. It works fantastically well. I suggest using this stuff _and_ getting used sponge off someone as the two in conjunction will give you a fully established tank in a day or two. I set my tank up in february this way and added a group of fairly large and very hungry yellow labs and never saw a hint of ammonia or nitrite.

As per fish choices, new people to the hobby for some reason seem to want to keep 20 kinds of fish in the same tank. I was that way too 10 years ago. I don't understand the urge any more- but this is not a good thing to do. Fish have different behaviours, environment and food needs. Something like 15 neon tetras, 7 bronze corys and a bushynose pleco, for example, is a good tank where everything gets along and can be provided for specifically. Once you get your tank sorted I'd take the fish you have back as trade ins because as a newer fish keeper you don't want to keep stressed or damaged fish, set your tank up for the specific needs of a stocklist that we help you work out, then add that stocklist. You'll have a lot more fun watching a much more natural looking tank with happy fish.

110 is the filter model the sponge is for.

Don't worry about aquaponics or anything for at least a year. Get a stable tank set up, keep fish alive for a year, then get fancier if you want.


----------



## didi

Hi AM,



> Once you get your tank sorted I'd take the fish you have back as trade ins


Could you please explain to me what do you mean by that? I bought by fishy from Petsmart 5 weeks ago? I remember they told me I could return the fish within the first 10 days. Will they take them back?

Thank you for all the info you ve given me again!


----------



## Abner

sent you a pm on how to contact me for the sponge didi


----------



## dl88dl

didi said:


> Hi AM,
> 
> Could you please explain to me what do you mean by that? I bought by fishy from Petsmart 5 weeks ago? I remember they told me I could return the fish within the first 10 days. Will they take them back?
> 
> Thank you for all the info you ve given me again!


If Petsmart wouldn't take it back then take it to Big Als and they will give you credit for anything in their store but don't expect to get too much credit back.
Btw, I recommend you take that sponge


----------



## InSpirit

didi said:


> Hi there
> 
> What does HOB mean? You are probably referring to the filter I use.
> Why wouldn't you modify it?


What went wrong is you changed the cartridge and lost the bacteria filtering the water as Dave said earlier. Your 'hang on the back' (HOB) is very limited. Modifying it by removing the cartridge and fitting in a sponge doesn't do much at all. Seeding the filter with water squeezed from an old sponge into the cartridge chamber directly will speed up the process of cycling. Placing the sponge in the waterflow is a good idea if it can be done. But for the most part your brand of cartridge HOB is mostly mechanical in nature. Never replace the cartridge (unless it's really woren out) just gently wash it in order to maintain what little biological it has. It does a great job of providing water flow and removing particulates but it's not the greatest at biological. All the discussions of cycling the tank are important but you are lacking a good biological component to your tank's filter system. If you were to get a 'old and mature' sponge filter and air pump from someone that would add a biological component immediately. I suggested a canister like an Eheim. The entire canister is for the most part biological filter. You add media to make it chemical and mechanical. And in the volume of the canister your biological component is huge compared to any cartridge. Getting back to your system. Adding a prefilter to HOB is only used to stop shrimp and small baby fishes (fry) from being sucked into the filter. You do not need to modify the filter with this. You have no need for it. What you need to do is seed the filter or start a new and wait for it to cycle again. Increase your biological component to your system. I agree with Dave. Stop feeding the fish or feed very sparingly. The simplest and most cost effective solution may be to purchase a sponge filter and air pump for now. Look to adding a canister filter later. When you do your water changes it's important to remember you must dose the full aquarium volume if you remove old water and add tap water directly to the aquarium. A 10 gallon water change done this way will require you to neutralize as if you changed 35 gallons, the entire tank.


----------



## dl88dl

InSpirit said:


> What went wrong is you changed the cartridge and lost the bacteria filtering the water as Dave said earlier. Your 'hang on the back' (HOB) is very limited. Modifying it by removing the cartridge and fitting in a sponge doesn't do much at all. Seeding the filter with water squeezed from an old sponge into the cartridge chamber directly will speed up the process of cycling. Placing the sponge in the waterflow is a good idea if it can be done. But for the most part your brand of cartridge HOB is mostly mechanical in nature. Never replace the cartridge just gently wash it in order to maintain what little biological it has. It does a great job of providing water flow and removing particulates but it's not the greatest at biological. All the discussions of cycling the tank are important but you are lacking a good biological component to your tank's filter system. If you were to get a 'old and mature' sponge filter and air pump from someone that would add a biological component immediately. I suggested a canister like an Eheim. The entire canister is for the most part biological filter. You add media to make it chemical and mechanical. And in the volume of the canister your biological component is huge compared to any cartridge. Getting back to your system. Adding a prefilter to HOB is only used to stop shrimp and small baby fishes (fry) from being sucked into the filter. You do not need to modify the filter with this. You have no need for it. What you need to do is seed the filter or start a new and wait for it to cycle again. Increase your biological component to your system. I agree with Dave. Stop feeding the fish or feed very sparingly. The simplest and most cost effective solution may be to purchase a sponge filter and air pump for now. Look to adding a canister filter later. When you do your water changes it's important to remember you must dose the full aquarium volume if you remove old water and add tap water directly to the aquarium. A 10 gallon water change done this way will require you to neutralize as if you changed 35 gallons, the entire tank.


I agree that the best way to go is to add a canister filter in the future once the tank complete the cycle.


----------



## Oldman

Hi there Didi. I wish that you did not face the problems that you are seeing today. In most cases you can do a 30% daily water change with proper dechlorination and can expect your fish to do well. As it is, you have added far too many fish to your uncycled tank to go completely without a water change. Let's get down to the basics if you will. Your fish will produce some amount of ammonia by way of the normal process of passing water through their gills, what fish does not do that? Since the production of ammonia will happen no matter what you do, you need to deal with that ammonia as a fish keeper. Until the bacterial colonies responsible for moving ammonia onward to nitrites grow in your filter, nothing will be present to deal with the ammonia except you doing a water change. You will do that water change in a way that reduces ammonia to a level that your test kit cannot easily detect. If you use an API master test kit that maximum level will be about 0.25 ppm. Another chemical that you need to test will be nitrites, the result of processing ammonia. Those nitrites also need to be kept below the minimal detectable levels and again, using the API master test kit, the value of interest is 0.25ppm. 
By keeping both ammonia and nitrites below the first bad result of 0.25ppm, you can reasonably expect your fish to survive and thrive in your tank. In my own experience, I find that I can start a fishless cycle using a clone from my mature tanks by doing a filter clean in my new tank and then following it, with a dose of ammonia as if I was starting from scratch. My fishless cycle on a new tank, using a mature filter clone, runs less than a week in every case so far. I cannot guarantee that that will be the case in every circumstance, but so far it has worked for me.


----------



## didi

Thank you Oldman,

These levels are very important to know.
I will test my water tomorrow. I ll get a test kit 

Thank you all for your posts.

Today I Met with one of the members and he was very kind and gave me his mature sponge from his own tank.

I did 25% WC and add the sponge and the bacteria and I am hoping that things will go better from now on.


I hope my fishy will stay alive!


----------



## didi

Hello guys,

I need HELP.

I checked my water condition before I did WC last night.

Here are the results:

Ammonia betwwen 0-0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate between 5.0-10.0
PH 7.6
and high range PH 8.0-8.2


I bought the Seachem Stability and also Prime and after using the mature sponge, I think that the levels will become normal.

However, what do I do with these HIgh Levels of PH?

Can someone please tell me???


Thank you very much


----------



## AquariAM

didi said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I need HELP.
> 
> I checked my water condition before I did WC last night.
> 
> Here are the results:
> 
> Ammonia betwwen 0-0.25
> Nitrite 0
> Nitrate between 5.0-10.0
> PH 7.6
> and high range PH 8.0-8.2
> 
> I bought the Seachem Stability and also Prime and after using the mature sponge, I think that the levels will become normal.
> 
> However, what do I do with these HIgh Levels of PH?
> 
> Can someone please tell me???
> 
> Thank you very much


your pH is fine. The high range pH is if your low range pH is out of range. Instructions.  
You're fine.


----------



## BettaBeats

I had a platy that was bloated and hiding in the plants which I thought was going to die. She had the pattern for weeks to the point I thought she had died. 
Turns out she was pregnant and was stressing over having her belly bursting with babies. She was also rubbing her tummy on the gravel to ease the birth. Ended up with 16 fry that I caught.. I swear I saw a ghost-shrimp eating one.. and probably had some eaten by my filter and my rasboras. I really thought she had bloat and was on the verge of dying! also, platys get ticked of easily.. they are sassy, dumb fish.  for the next 5 months she had 3 more babies individually, months apart. times when i was replanting or moving the tank she got so stressed out she popped out a live baby! they are notorious for storing sperm. 


Either way, it sounds like you did a fish-in cycle. It is not so nice to say, but there are usually several deaths due to the ammonia.. this is why some people cycle with hearty fish or feeder fish - they expect deaths and the crud and rotting flesh will create ammonia. the hearty ones that survive well, that's why they are heart.

AquariAM is right though - a simple java fern or a cryptocoryne sp. would be good. They are nice plants to look at, easy to maintain (don't need lots of light or nutrient dosing) and will help filter the water FAST.


AND all aquarium plants are for freshwater, unless it's a mangrove.. That's really the only type of plant you would see for saltwater in most fish shops.


edit: it also sounds like your at the beginning stages of the cycle. you have no nitrites so the nitrates you do have could be from fish food, etc. your readings are inline with the beginnings of the cycle i just did. (it helps if you write down the parameters in a small notebook)


----------



## AquariAM

BettaBeats said:


> I had a platy that was bloated and hiding in the plants which I thought was going to die. She had the pattern for weeks to the point I thought she had died.
> Turns out she was pregnant and was stressing over having her belly bursting with babies. She was also rubbing her tummy on the gravel to ease the birth. Ended up with 16 fry that I caught.. I swear I saw a ghost-shrimp eating one.. and probably had some eaten by my filter and my rasboras. I really thought she had bloat and was on the verge of dying! also, platys get ticked of easily.. they are sassy, dumb fish.  for the next 5 months she had 3 more babies individually, months apart. times when i was replanting or moving the tank she got so stressed out she popped out a live baby! they are notorious for storing sperm.
> 
> Either way, it sounds like you did a fish-in cycle. It is not so nice to say, but there are usually several deaths due to the ammonia.. this is why some people cycle with hearty fish or feeder fish - they expect deaths and the crud and rotting flesh will create ammonia. the hearty ones that survive well, that's why they are heart.
> 
> AquariAM is right though - a simple java fern or a cryptocoryne sp. would be good. They are nice plants to look at, easy to maintain (don't need lots of light or nutrient dosing) and will help filter the water FAST.
> 
> AND all aquarium plants are for freshwater, unless it's a mangrove.. That's really the only type of plant you would see for saltwater in most fish shops.
> 
> edit: it also sounds like your at the beginning stages of the cycle. you have no nitrites so the nitrates you do have could be from fish food, etc. your readings are inline with the beginnings of the cycle i just did. (it helps if you write down the parameters in a small notebook)


They dont rub their tummy on anything nor do they usually cower and hide. When a platy or guppy is ready to give birth it will go hide for about 2 minutes (some just drop the babies anywhere) then swim back and go about its business eating etc. They will eat and act normal (but very fat) up to 10 minutes before birth.


----------



## didi

> I had a platy that was bloated and hiding in the plants which I thought was going to die. She had the pattern for weeks to the point I thought she had died.
> Turns out she was pregnant and was stressing over having her belly bursting with babies. She was also rubbing her tummy on the gravel to ease the birth. Ended up with 16 fry that I caught.. I swear I saw a ghost-shrimp eating one.. and probably had some eaten by my filter and my rasboras. I really thought she had bloat and was on the verge of dying! also, platys get ticked of easily.. they are sassy, dumb fish. for the next 5 months she had 3 more babies individually, months apart. times when i was replanting or moving the tank she got so stressed out she popped out a live baby! they are notorious for storing sperm.
> 
> Either way, it sounds like you did a fish-in cycle. It is not so nice to say, but there are usually several deaths due to the ammonia.. this is why some people cycle with hearty fish or feeder fish - they expect deaths and the crud and rotting flesh will create ammonia. the hearty ones that survive well, that's why they are heart.
> 
> AquariAM is right though - a simple java fern or a cryptocoryne sp. would be good. They are nice plants to look at, easy to maintain (don't need lots of light or nutrient dosing) and will help filter the water FAST.
> 
> AND all aquarium plants are for freshwater, unless it's a mangrove.. That's really the only type of plant you would see for saltwater in most fish shops.
> 
> edit: it also sounds like your at the beginning stages of the cycle. you have no nitrites so the nitrates you do have could be from fish food, etc. your readings are inline with the beginnings of the cycle i just did. (it helps if you write down the parameters in a small notebook)


Thank you. I ll test the water again tomorrow to see if the levels got any better.

I only have one platy and it seems to be doing better. I don't know if it is 'she' or 'he'. Wow, I can't wait for my future fish have babies. I ll def need help to deal with that as well


----------



## BettaBeats

AquariAM said:


> They dont rub their tummy on anything nor do they usually cower and hide. When a platy or guppy is ready to give birth it will go hide for about 2 minutes (some just drop the babies anywhere) then swim back and go about its business eating etc. They will eat and act normal (but very fat) up to 10 minutes before birth.


It is called glancing. It can be a sign of a very big belly during pregnancy, or ich.

fish babies are fun. baby platy's are adorably cute and quite easy to take care of.
(if that's what's happening)


----------



## AquariAM

BettaBeats said:


> It is called glancing. It can be a sign of a very big belly during pregnancy, or ich.


or bacterial infections or gill flukes or hydra stings or irritation from ammonia or nitrite or 1000 other things. But of a very big belly during pregnancy... I've been through a few livebearers. Never seen it. But YMMV 

*this is why some people cycle with hearty fish or feeder fish - they expect deaths and the crud and rotting flesh will create ammonia. the hearty ones that survive well, that's why they are heart.*.

This is why it's never nice to cycle a tank like 'mountain people' raise their children.


----------



## didi

Hi guys,
How are you?
 ammonia levels in my tank are higher today?

What do i do wrong? I add the stability and do water changes.

Is there anything else I could do?

Thank you


----------



## didi

Is there anyone that is willing to give me a mature sponge??
My platy doesn't look good.

Thank you!


----------



## AquariAM

You shouldnt have ammonia shooting up unless you're insanely overfeeding or you have a dead rotting fish, not if you're following the stability instructions and shaking it well


----------



## InSpirit

If you used the water conditioner, the test kit is detecting the ammonium ion. Ammonium ion is non toxic. In time the filter will process this and the detectable levels of ammonia/ammonium ion will drop to zero. Now if you are feeding a lot... suspend the feeding. If you feel the ammonia is high. Dose with Ammo-lock. But always remember the test kit cannot detect the difference between the toxic form of ammonia and the non toxic ammonium ion after water treatment. As well you could always drop the pH a degree. But IMO, I would let it cycle.

P.S. Slow down on the water changes. Let it cycle until the ammonia/ammonium ion level is not detectable.


----------



## didi

> P.S. Slow down on the water changes. Let it cycle until the ammonia/ammonium ion level is not detectable.


Hi Inspirit,
What do you mean by that? shouldn't I do WC of 20-25% daily?
IYO, How often should I do WC?


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## didi

> You shouldnt have ammonia shooting up unless you're insanely overfeeding or you have a dead rotting fish, not if you're following the stability instructions and shaking it well


Hi AM, I am def not overfeeding. I had a neon disappeared from my tank. I checked before to see if it was dead but I didn't find anything. I was very puzzled by that. How could a neon just disappear? It was tiny, but still I can't believe it was eaten by some other fish. I ll check again... maybe thats what it is.

OMG!


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## InSpirit

didi said:


> Hi Inspirit,
> What do you mean by that? shouldn't I do WC of 20-25% daily?
> IYO, How often should I do WC?


Wait until it cycles. Your tank has a low bioload. What you need is a larger biological filtration component so this cycling can be quickened. But we went down this road before. Your tank may take longer based on the filter being more mechanical in nature. Water change is used to remove excess nitrates and detrius. You have no nitrates yet because your cycle is not complete. The ammonia is neutralized by the water conditioners. You must now wait until the tank cycles. After the tank cycles you can determine how many water changes you need per week based on your bioload. Be patient. HTH


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## AquariAM

didi said:


> Hi AM, I am def not overfeeding. I had a neon disappeared from my tank. I checked before to see if it was dead but I didn't find anything. I was very puzzled by that. How could a neon just disappear? It was tiny, but still I can't believe it was eaten by some other fish. I ll check again... maybe thats what it is.
> 
> OMG!


I think the best solution here overall is to just stay calm, do frequent water changes (if I were you and I had lots of free time I'd do like 20% a day, if not 1x every 3 days at this particular point is fine), keep using stability, follow the directions, feed very lightly, and eventually you will achieve stability in your tank.


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## InSpirit

I told you. The ammonium ion is not toxic. What do you think starts the process of the nitrogen cycle? You need the ammonia/ammonium ions to start the process of cycling. This causes the grow of the bacteria that will create nitrite... then follows the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. Why do you think you have to remove all the ammonia in the beginning with water changes? That's the job of the filter... That's what will lead to stability. Let Mother Nature do her job... let the tank find it's balance.

Do a water change after the tank cycles and you want to remove excess nitrates that will build up in time when the tank is running and the cycle is long complete.

Poor platy. It's probably all stressed out wondering why all this sterile water is being dumped into his watery environment.


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## InSpirit

Oh and BTW, didi I'm not shouting at you. I'm shouting at someone giving you bad advice...


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## AquariAM

InSpirit said:


> Oh and BTW, didi I'm not shouting at you. I'm shouting at someone giving you bad advice...


Thank you. There's more than one way to skin a catfish you know.


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## didi

Hello guys,

I appreciate both of your inputs. You are probably both have valid points in one wya or another. It seems to me that both of you know what you are talking about.

I decided to buy an AC70 filtration system tomorrow. That should speed up the process of cycling. I will let my tank cycle, how long should that take?
Today is the forth day since I started to use the stability.

My platy doesn't look good. 

Thank you all.


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## AquariAM

didi said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I appreciate both of your inputs. You are probably both have valid points in one wya or another. It seems to me that both of you know what you are talking about.
> 
> I decided to buy an AC70 filtration system tomorrow. That should speed up the process of cycling. I will let my tank cycle, how long should that take?
> Today is the forth day since I started to use the stability.
> 
> My platy doesn't look good.
> 
> Thank you all.


Buying a new sterile filter in the box will have absolutely no impact on cycling time.


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## dl88dl

PM sent to didi regarding the AC70


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## Chris S

InSpirit said:


> I told you. The ammonium ion is not toxic. What do you think starts the process of the nitrogen cycle? You need the ammonia/ammonium ions to start the process of cycling. This causes the grow of the bacteria that will create nitrite... then follows the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. Why do you think you have to remove all the ammonia in the beginning with water changes? That's the job of the filter... That's what will lead to stability. Let Mother Nature do her job... let the tank find it's balance.
> 
> Do a water change after the tank cycles and you want to remove excess nitrates that will build up in time when the tank is running and the cycle is long complete.
> 
> Poor platy. It's probably all stressed out wondering why all this sterile water is being dumped into his watery environment.


If there are detectable levels of ammonia, and fish in the tank, there is no reason to not do water changes. It won't stop the filter from cycling (as ammonia will be produced by the fish constantly), but it will keep the fish from dying.


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## InSpirit

Chris S said:


> If there are detectable levels of ammonia, and fish in the tank, there is no reason to not do water changes. It won't stop the filter from cycling (as ammonia will be produced by the fish constantly), but it will keep the fish from dying.


That's not the point chris. The water conditioner has neutralized the ammonia and the test kit is detecting the ammonium ion. We've been over this. No one told didi 'not to test' for ammonia because it's a waste of time the test kit will always show it's there. That's my point. There's no need for massive amounts of water changes at this point in the cycle. All the fish may die. It's often the case with a reset or NTS. But IMO this tank needs an additional filter. Something that can cycle the tank because it has a better biological component.


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## AquariAM

InSpirit said:


> That's not the point chris. The water conditioner has neutralized the ammonia and the test kit is detecting the ammonium ion.


Um, no. That would only be the case for about 1/2 hour to 1 hour after a water change with a chloramine source.
Prime at normal concentration only has enough 'inertia' if you will, to bind the ammonia that seperates from chlorine when Prime breaks the chloramine bond. It does not stay in your tank actively and perpetually bind ammonia.


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## InSpirit

dl88dl said:


> PM sent to didi regarding the AC70


Now that's a better HOB. Cycling a cartridge is like watching paint dry.


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## InSpirit

AquariAM said:


> Um, no. That would only be the case for about 1/2 hour to 1 hour after a water change with a chloramine source.
> Prime at normal concentration only has enough 'inertia' if you will, to bind the ammonia that seperates from chlorine when Prime breaks the chloramine bond. It does not stay in your tank actively and perpetually bind ammonia.


That's why you stop feeding. But you can't convince didi to do what Dave and I suggested to do all along. Give up man... you are making something so simple complicated. Notice what I said. You can nuke the tank with ammo-lock and drop the pH to guarantee no toxic ammonia and that all ammonia is converted to ammonium ion. The lower pH will do that all by itself. Notice what dave has suggested... the AC70.


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## AquariAM

InSpirit said:


> That's why you stop feeding. But you can't convince didi to do what Dave and I suggested to do all along. Give up man...


If it'll make you happy 
BTW- asking a new hobbyist to drop and lock a lower pH is asking for disaster.

I don't think she knows what kH is yet.

Also- you can stop feeding but the fish won't stop drinking and peeing (don't tell me fish don't pee I've watched about ten species pee) you will always have ammonia production if you have livestock.

As a side note- ammonia becomes completely non-toxic AFAIK below a pH of 5. From 5 to 6 it is only mildly toxic, 6-7 medium 7-8 high 8+ very high. Platys don't much appreciate pH below 7 and below 6 I can't see them being happy at all.


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## InSpirit

I'm asking didi to consider a better filter. One that has the capacity to cycle the tank quickly. And hopeful Dave has one.


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## AquariAM

InSpirit said:


> I'm asking didi to consider a better filter. One that has the capacity to cycle the tank quickly. And hopeful Dave has one.


I agree a better filter is in order. Doesn't mean all the other stuff Chris and I have said is gibberish though.


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## didi

> The water conditioner has neutralized the ammonia and the test kit is detecting the ammonium ion. We've been over this. No one told didi 'not to test' for ammonia because it's a waste of time the test kit will always show it's there. That's my point. There's no need for massive amounts of water changes at this point in the cycle.


Hello, I ve been using Seachem prime to neutralize ammonia.

So, based on what you are saying, it is pointless to test for ammonia.So, why people always say to bring the ammonia levels down to zero??? I understand that ammonia or ammonium ions will be always in my tank... if I stop making WC the ammonia will be produced in my tank from the break down of food and the waste.

Could I just add more water conditioner to neautralize the new ammonia produced?? Shouldn't that convert the new ammonia into ammonium ions adn then problem solved? or what do i have to add just to break down the ammonia produced by the watse? I only add conditioner once I do WC.

This thought makes sence in my mind. I think it will work for ammonia.
From what i picked up through this forum. I must do WC to remove excess Nitrates once i have.

I am getting an AC 70 before the weekend. and a mature sponge.

Thank you 
Didi


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## InSpirit

If you have a good biological filter component... you don't have to worry about chloramine. The filter (when cycled) will take care of it all by itself. Over filter the tank... it makes the hobby easier.


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## didi

> If it'll make you happy
> BTW- asking a new hobbyist to drop and lock a lower pH is asking for disaster.
> 
> I don't think she knows what kH is yet.
> 
> Also- you can stop feeding but the fish won't stop drinking and peeing (don't tell me fish don't pee I've watched about ten species pee) you will always have ammonia production if you have livestock.
> 
> As a side note- ammonia becomes completely non-toxic AFAIK below a pH of 5. From 5 to 6 it is only mildly toxic, 6-7 medium 7-8 high 8+ very high. Platys don't much appreciate pH below 7 and below 6 I can't see them being happy at all.


Hi Am, 
my pH is high, above 7 and I have no idea how to reduce it etc. You are right.

You guys all have helped me alot. I really really thank you.

Without you I ll be completely lost.
Now, I am being patient.

Didi


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## didi

> If you have a good biological filter component... you don't have to worry about chloramine. The filter (when cycled) will take care of it all by itself. Over filter the tank... it makes the hobby easier.


My fish will def appreciate it...


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## InSpirit

didi said:


> Hello, I ve been using Seachem prime to neutralize ammonia.
> 
> So, based on what you are saying, it is pointless to test for ammonia.So, why people always say to bring the ammonia levels down to zero??? I understand that ammonia or ammonium ions will be always in my tank... if I stop making WC the ammonia will be produced in my tank from the break down of food and the waste.
> 
> Could I just add more water conditioner to neautralize the new ammonia produced?? Shouldn't that convert the new ammonia into ammonium ions adn then problem solved? or what do i have to add just to break down the ammonia produced by the watse? I only add conditioner once I do WC.
> 
> This thought makes sence in my mind. I think it will work for ammonia.
> From what i picked up through this forum. I must do WC to remove excess Nitrates once i have.
> 
> I am getting an AC 70 before the weekend. and a mature sponge.
> 
> Thank you
> Didi


Because when all things are working properly and the tank is fully cycled an ammonia spike indicates that there is something wrong. The filter should have processed this. There shouldn't be any detectable ammonia in a fully mature system. It may simply mean you need to clean your sponge. The chloramine from water changes will be processed by the filter and the levels of ammonia/ammonium ion will become undetectable relatively quickly. No need to worry about chloramine in an over filtered tank. However... it's always good to neutralize any new water going into the tank. Even set aside a bucket or two overnight and add some hot water to bring it up to the desired temp. Do an ammonia test when the tank is up and running and the cycle complete. It should read zero.

Okay let's say your tank has a *good filter *and suddenly there's a problem. Prime would require five times the dosage to neutralize extra ammonia and *especially toxic nitrite.* I prefer Ammo-lock by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. You test for ammonia every two days. Don't panic. What you should see is the level of ammonia should decrease as the filter cycles. Don't do any water changes. The ammonium ion is the food for the bacteria you are trying to build. If it's still detectable after the second day add more 5X Prime or Ammo-lock. Only do a water change after about a week if ammonia is still in the system. And at this time you must reduce the amount you are feeding and check your filter which is still not working properly. Dosing with 5X Prime is a good idea if you suspect toxic nitrite has spiked. A low bioload tank can ride these spikes out.

To tell you the truth many of us in the business have had to deal with helping a person relatively new to the hobby. In almost every case it's a matter of overfeeding, not realizing that fish require far less than one would expect and not willing to wait until the tank is fully established before they add more fish. I'm not accusing you of doing this. You have a willingness to learn and I respect that. But please don't feel guilty if the fish die. There's a learning curve. It has happened to all of us. When I first started I was blessed with a breeding pair of red chromides. Babies and all... I managed to boil them.


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## InSpirit

AquariAM said:


> I agree a better filter is in order. Doesn't mean all the other stuff Chris and I have said is gibberish though.


I'm not discrediting what chris has added to the conversation. I know he's well experienced. What I'm saying is we've been over all of this. We know the problem and it's time to rectify it.


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## InSpirit

didi said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I appreciate both of your inputs. You are probably both have valid points in one wya or another. It seems to me that both of you know what you are talking about.
> 
> I decided to buy an AC70 filtration system tomorrow. That should speed up the process of cycling. I will let my tank cycle, how long should that take?
> Today is the forth day since I started to use the stability.
> 
> My platy doesn't look good.
> 
> Thank you all.


With a mature sponge you'll see quick results. You can add an ammonia chip insert. I don't think the new filter gives you this. You have to buy it afterwards as it saves on their cost. It will go on top of your charcoal filter insert. I'll give you a brand new one for free if it's not included. That will get you started.


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## didi

HI all,

I wanted to tell you that my fishy are alive and happy. Dave(dl88dl) was very kind to help me out with a mature sponge, a filter AC70, and millions of bacteria from one of his own tanks.

Mu Ammonia is almost down to zero.

Thank you.


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## AquariAM

Your ammonia should BE zero..

I wonder if you have a defective kit. your tank has been cycling for awhile and if you got used sponge and you arent overfeeding or anything I dont understand why you have any ammonia or nitrite at all.


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## didi

HI AquariAM, 
Few weeks ago a neon tetra dissappeared from my tank. I checked the gravel but I didn't find it.

I ll check again today.

Maybe, it has been dead inside the tank all this time and thats why my ammonia doesn't go down to zero.

Id there is a rotten fish inside my tank, how long do you think is gonna be causing ammonia spikes?


My Nitrite is zero.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Neon tetras are very hard fish to keep, in my opinion. Small, and they die easily. AquariAM said "7 or more", and that's the right approach. They are small, and they do best in a school, plus they are more lively. And when you loose one of ten, it's not so hard on you. If you loose one a day or one a week, then your tank is not fit for these fish and you shouldn't buy more. 

Get a larger, hardier tetra next time.

You are doing well now that you have that big AC70 filter on there and a mature sponge.

I am impressed that you could follow along with all this information overload.

Good for you, didi.

W


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