# *URGENT* Fish Dying!!!



## Tabatha

In 3 days, we've lost 2 rummy nose tetra, 1 angelfish and 2 female Rams!!!
      

Checked the parameters yesterday, all were fine, did a 50% water change, the 2 Rams were dead this morning.

We have a UV sterilizer running 24/7, temp is consistently 79F, no new fish in tank for 2+ weeks.

The only thing I can think of is we've been soaking the cichlid flake in tank water with Kent Zoe then keeping it in the frig for future feedings. Could the food be going bad in the frig???


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## KhuliLoachFan

*well, no advice but.*

I do know that feels crummy. These fascinating little wriggly creatures sure do crawl into one's heart, I find, and it becomes very difficult to see them not do well, or die.

:-(

W


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## Shattered

Sounds like that could be it. 

Were the fish acting oddly before they perished? Any changes to the room itself?


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## ksimdjembe

if possible, it's best not to leave fish food intended to be fed, in tank water [which has good and BAD bacteria in it] in the fridge. 
the water is not moving, and thus the food does not get oxygen; the bacteria go into an anoxic situation and the bad bacteria take over, not alwys, but potentially polluting the water with the fish food.
its like adding bacteria to leftovers to speed up decomposition


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## Shattered

I just thought of another few things while folding the laundry... it does give one time to think. 

Are there any of those automatic air-fresheners in the room? 

Test the water you use for your water changes. I've seen similar situations caused by amonia added to tap water.


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## pat3612

Iam so sorry you lost some of your fish Tabatha. Was it one of your new angels. Pat


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## Tabatha

Hi Everyone, 

Thanks for your condolences and suggestions. There is one tetra in the tank which may have tuberculosis, yellowish lumps under its skin, s/he will be humanely euthanized.

It may have been the Zoe, I discovered in my conversation with Pablo that I was using too much. 

ksimdjembe, very good point! I have been thawing frozen food with tank water and keeping it in the frig without any trouble but certainly won't continue that practice! I'll use de-chlorinated, filtered water from now on.

Shattered, we don't have automatic air fresheners in the house but I know what you mean about potential toxicity to fish and other critters!

Another point I'd like to mention is that the Bolivians, in a separate tank, eat the same foods and have appeared to be fine.


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## KhuliLoachFan

*wondering about dechlorinating frozen food thawing water or not.*

I just use hot tap water, a small amount, to thaw frozen foods. I figure one ounce of tap water (untreated) into a tank of 20g or more, is negligible chlorine and chloramines. If you already have a large bucket of dechlorinated water, I suppose that would be better to use one cup of that, but you don't add a drop of dechlorinating agent into 1 cup of water, do you? That would be quite a lot of that chemical (Sodium Thiosulfate) interacting with your foods, and worse than leaving the chlorine in, I would think.

What do you think Pablo? Should I use only dechlorinated water in my food melt water, or is the chlorine/chloramine in 1 cup of hot water negligible in my tank? 1 ppm Cl in the 1 cup of water would be diluted 500 or 1000 times into the tank.

W


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## KhuliLoachFan

*are you sure the yellowish lumps are TB?*

I couldn't find anywhere referencing yellow lumps as a TB symptom. Wasted appearance, flattened stomach, yes, etc, but not yellow lumps. Big lumps that protrude or just yellow color dots (non protruding)?

W


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## Tabatha

Yellow lumps under the skin, I'll try to find or get a photo.


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## Pablo

It might be TB or it could be another parasite- I don't know all the names. A photo would be great especially if Wilson sees it. Once the fish is out of water it'll be much easier to photo


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## Tabatha

BTW, this is on a rummy nose tetra, you can see through the body. If I were looking at a 4-legged creature, I would say they were fatty lumps, yellowish in colour.

In this tetra, the lumps are located on the top of its head behind the eye in the brain area as well as the stomach.


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## Pablo

Sounds like a kind of parasite that lives inside the fish in tissue. Wilson first pointed these out to me.


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## Ciddian

crap tabatha... i am so sorry D:

They looked just fine when i was over.. One rummy had a bit of a light spot i think but i didnt think anything of it. D: I am so sorry...


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## Tabatha

*Life and Death in One Day*

One of the female Rams is hiding in a plant I have tethered at the top of the tank, one of the males is swimming back and forth on one of the sides, the other female is chasing and nipping him.

Then I discovered why; a clutch of eggs laid on a leaf at the back of the tank. I would be nice if one or two made it but I don't hold my breath, there is a tetra and angelfish waiting for snacks.

I have the 20g set up downstairs but the crappy glass heater isn't keeping it warm enough; I have it set to 30C yet the thermometer only reads 23C.

I hope that female at the top of the tank will be okay, I don't want to loose another one! No more fatalities.

Pablo: Are you sure it's not just tumors? Can you find photos for me? I searched but couldn't find anything. The fish is not deformed and is roughly the same size as all the rest, the yellow lumps are contained within the body.

Does anyone know who breeds rams locally?


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## Pablo

Tabatha said:


> One of the female Rams is hiding in a plant I have tethered at the top of the tank, one of the males is swimming back and forth on one of the sides, the other female is chasing and nipping him.
> 
> Then I discovered why; a clutch of eggs laid on a leaf at the back of the tank. I would be nice if one or two made it but I don't hold my breath, there is a tetra and angelfish waiting for snacks.
> 
> I have the 20g set up downstairs but the crappy glass heater isn't keeping it warm enough; I have it set to 30C yet the thermometer only reads 23C.
> 
> I hope that female at the top of the tank will be okay, I don't want to loose another one! No more fatalities.
> 
> Pablo: Are you sure it's not just tumors? Can you find photos for me? I searched but couldn't find anything. The fish is not deformed and is roughly the same size as all the rest, the yellow lumps are contained within the body.
> 
> Does anyone know who breeds rams locally?


Nightowl.

Pm me though

Also regardless- the fish with the yellow lumps needs to be removed.
23 isn't warm enough you'll need another heater


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## Tabatha

Pablo said:


> Nightowl.
> 
> Pm me though
> 
> Also regardless- the fish with the yellow lumps needs to be removed.
> 23 isn't warm enough you'll need another heater


And guess what? It's a frickin' glass heater! I knew I should've grabbed the Ehim today.

Will PM in a sec.


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## dekstr

Hey Tabatha,

Sorry to hear about your fish loss.

I think sometimes newly introduced fish have been under so much stress before even arriving at your home (i.e. wild caught, shipping, holding, quarantine, some more shipping, not properly acclimated at fish store, different water parameters, new diseases not native to natural habitat, etc), that by the time time they are in your tank they have an early death.

The parasites/diseases may just be the triggering point--most fish that are not severely stressed have amazing survivability to and recovery from diseases. Which is why I suspect that after the initial critical months--they become healthy and free of major stress--and often live for much longer than their wild counterparts.


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## Tabatha

dekstr said:


> Hey Tabatha,
> 
> Sorry to hear about your fish loss.
> 
> I think sometimes newly introduced fish have been under so much stress before even arriving at your home (i.e. wild caught, shipping, holding, quarantine, some more shipping, not properly acclimated at fish store, different water parameters, new diseases not native to natural habitat, etc), that by the time time they are in your tank they have an early death.
> 
> The parasites/diseases may just be the triggering point--most fish that are not severely stressed have amazing survivability to and recovery from diseases. Which is why I suspect that after the initial critical months--they become healthy and free of major stress--and often live for much longer than their wild counterparts.


Hey Dekstr,

It really is amazing that they manage to survive! The rams and angels are locally bred, the 2 tetra that died we've had for about 3 moths so it's perplexing.

I'm thrilled to have discovered the ram's eggs, I think they were laid yesterday because as I was messing around in the tank, the rams attacked my hands.


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## Pablo

Been thinking bout this all day... Is it possible that one of the nutrients for the plants is underused and thus built up to a toxic level?

Was there maybe something toxic in the air/room?

Are there any unusual dead insects in the water?


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## Tabatha

Pablo said:


> Been thinking bout this all day... Is it possible that one of the nutrients for the plants is underused and thus built up to a toxic level?
> 
> Was there maybe something toxic in the air/room?
> 
> Are there any unusual dead insects in the water?


No on all 3 accounts. Actually, I missed a few days dosing ferts this week, no air fresheners/sprays and no insects in the water.

I can imagine that the two female rams weren't in perfect health to begin with, remember I told you about the little one which was really pale? The female who just laid eggs is much bigger than the other females, with more colour.

Was it a coincidence that 5 fish died at the same time?

I don't know but I'm really thankful everyone appears to be doing well today, no more bodies.


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## Pablo

Glad to hear today went well.

I was asking because Martin was telling me that once a big beetle of some sort fell in his tank, and when all the fish attacked it- it released some sort of bad smelling liquid as a defense and the fish which actually inhaled it because they were right there all died- about three or four of them- while the fish at the other end of the tank were fine


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## Ciddian

giant mealworm beetle does this as well... i had one pop up in the cham cage from a dropped worm and tried to give it to the turtle... the turtle shyed away from it in the water closing its eyes and such. It was also turned away from the cham. Some wierdo scent glande in the abdomen does it.. Its gross...

But tabatha wouldnt have those...


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## Pablo

Ciddian said:


> giant mealworm beetle does this as well... i had one pop up in the cham cage from a dropped worm and tried to give it to the turtle... the turtle shyed away from it in the water closing its eyes and such. It was also turned away from the cham. Some wierdo scent glande in the abdomen does it.. Its gross...
> 
> But tabatha wouldnt have those...


A scent gland in the abdomen?
I would hope nobody had one of those... Definitely a reason to go see your doctor.


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## Zebrapl3co

Ouch! Sorry to hear that too.
You would happen to be using some kind of algeaside, have you?
Can't think of what may have cause this, if it's disease it shouldn't have hit 5 victims at once. Parasite usually drops 1 or 2 per day for a week or so.
I usually blame the water or food in cases like this as you have suspected. Specifically, it's looks like it's a bacteria problem. Usually a good %20 water change every 2 days and dosing melafix helps.

Good luck and cross my fingers that it's over.

Also, do you know if the eggs where fertilized or not? ... um ... rams need to fertilize their eggs. I can't remember anymore, it's been 3 years since I breed rams, but I think if it's transparent it's good, if it turned white it's not fertilized.
Also, it's the dad that takes care of the eggs most of the time. Some times, even mon is not allow to be near the eggs. But in a community tank, both parents will guard the eggs. Umm ... you better find fry food soon. Liquid fry from wardley's comes to mind. You can also grind your flakes to powered and feed them with a dropper.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Ciddian

LOL pablo.. I didnt mean it that way.. X)


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## Tabatha

Zebrapl3co said:


> Ouch! Sorry to hear that too.
> You would happen to be using some kind of algeaside, have you?
> Can't think of what may have cause this, if it's disease it shouldn't have hit 5 victims at once. Parasite usually drops 1 or 2 per day for a week or so.
> I usually blame the water or food in cases like this as you have suspected. Specifically, it's looks like it's a bacteria problem. Usually a good %20 water change every 2 days and dosing melafix helps.
> 
> Good luck and cross my fingers that it's over.


Thank you, me too! No, haven't used any algaecides.



Zebrapl3co said:


> Also, do you know if the eggs where fertilized or not? ... um ... rams need to fertilize their eggs. I can't remember anymore, it's been 3 years since I breed rams, but I think if it's transparent it's good, if it turned white it's not fertilized.


I noticed approximately 5 unfertilized (white) eggs in the clutch. This is the second spawn but I can't be sure if it's the same parents. It's a small clutch, it doesn't look like more than 20 - 25 eggs.



Zebrapl3co said:


> Also, it's the dad that takes care of the eggs most of the time. Some times, even mon is not allow to be near the eggs. But in a community tank, both parents will guard the eggs.


They are both guarding the eggs and being quite busy. My other male is trying desperately to court the female who just laid. My second female ate yesterday and came out from hiding so I'm feeling hopeful for her.



Zebrapl3co said:


> Umm ... you better find fry food soon. Liquid fry from wardley's comes to mind. You can also grind your flakes to powered and feed them with a dropper.


I have a very fine protein-based powdered flake, would this work?

I was thinking of moving the Bolivians into the big 90g tank and the Rams into the 25g to give them a better chance at a successful spawn. ATM the Bolivians have their territories but there's not a lot of activity besides sparing. The only other fish I have in that tank are Panda Corys, 2 juvenile plecos, 3 otos, RCS and Amanos. It's heavily planted with a sand substrate. What do you think?

*Update:* I just checked on the eggs, Poppa is still doing his job, eggs are okay, didn't see any wigglers. Today is day 3, I'm amazed they've lasted this long but there appears to be more white eggs today than there were yesterday. Does this mean they've perished?


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## Tabatha

*Aquarium of Death*

Found another deceased female Ram this morning. We're left with 2 males and 1 female. This is not good.

The majority of eggs are gone, Poppa has abandoned them.

I have a 5.5 and a 20 in the basement, I may move the Rams.

I feel like ripping this tank apart.

Sage advice and hugs needed.   

Tabatha

*Update 9:36 a.m.*

My remaining female Ram is now at the top of the tank, I have a feeling she's not going to survive either.

I plan to do a 25% water change today. Is there anything else I can do???

I haven't fertilized the plants since Thursday, I haven't used any Zoe in their food yesterday or today.

Should I dose the tank with antibiotics or something? If so, what?


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## lili

Zebrapl3co said:


> I usually blame the water or food in cases like this as you have suspected. Specifically, it's looks like it's a bacteria problem. Usually a good %20 water change every 2 days and dosing melafix helps. .......


I agree.
It looks bacterial but I would check the water again too.
I would use an antibiotic large spectrum like Maracyn+ (it won't damage the biofilter) without even knowing the disease. But many will disagree, I know. It always saved me (Maracyn2 is good too). 
I read that RAMs are the first to go and they don't respond to meds. I cannot confirm that because mine didn't get sick, thank God.
I would move the girl RAM in another cycled tank (if you have one). Don't make a new one (quarantine) because RAMs cannot take the little amount of amonia. Did you check the nitrates too ? 
My best !
L


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## lili

!!!! I use Vitachem for fishes. Mine responded bad to Zoe. Never figured why.
But I use only once a month Vitachem. I order it at BigAl ane they brought it for me.

And, use PRIME for the tap water, just in case, especially if you plan big water changes.

I have amonia in Toronto tap water. It looks like nobody else has this problem, but I do. Prime is a blessing !


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## Tabatha

*Water Parameters*

PH: 7.3 (best ever, it's usually 7.5) Used 2 different tests.

NO2: 0 mg/l

GH: 9 dH

KH: 6 dH

NH3: 0 mg/l

CO2: 10 mg/l

We'll try to hit Menagerie today and talk to Harold about broad spectrum anti bacterial meds.


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## lili

Tabatha said:


> PH: 7.3 (best ever, it's usually 7.5) Used 2 different tests.
> 
> NO2: 0 mg/l
> 
> GH: 9 dH
> 
> KH: 6 dH
> 
> NH3: 0 mg/l
> 
> CO2: 10 mg/l
> 
> We'll try to hit Menagerie today and talk to Harold about broad spectrum anti bacterial meds.


They have the Furanase or the Furan ... ones, but it would mess a little with biofilter. I didn't see Maracyn+ there. But you can find Maracy2 at petsmart. Harold has the kanaplex and Metro (I think) but I had problems with kanaplex and biofiltre though I shouldn't have ..... Anyway, ask him.
Avoid TC, it ruins the biofilter (it says on the box).
I have tried all this meds because of 2 fishes: my old betta with a recurent case of finrot (finally solved) and a blue dwarf gourami that lived for more than one year (sick and well, sick and well ..... and so on ...). i can mention the other fishes in the tank that had to undergo treatment because of these two and did well for more than one year now: neon tetra, yo-yo, glass fish, endlers, frogs. The ones that were "saved" from the treatments: shrimps, snail, otto. Shrimps cannot take medications. Snail can take Maracyn+. Otto can take half dosage Maracyns. Bettas can take anything but Melafix. Glass fishes can take full dosage if they are big otherwise ... half.
Let me know what Harold said.
My best to you fishes.
L
PS: vacuum gravel, replant.


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## Pablo

lili said:


> !!!! I use Vitachem for fishes. Mine responded bad to Zoe. Never figured why.
> But I use only once a month Vitachem. I order it at BigAl ane they brought it for me.
> 
> And, use PRIME for the tap water, just in case, especially if you plan big water changes.
> 
> I have amonia in Toronto tap water. It looks like nobody else has this problem, but I do. Prime is a blessing !


The ammonia is a result of the broken chloramine bond everyone has it


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## lili

Pablo said:


> The ammonia is a result of the broken chloramine bond everyone has it


Thanks for info.
But my fishes know if I don't use Prime and they doooon't like it. Other people use regular decloranator with succes. I couldn't. The shrimps will die and the neons will get sick.
L


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## Pablo

lili said:


> Thanks for info.
> But my fishes know if I don't use Prime and they doooon't like it. Other people use regular decloranator with succes. I couldn't. The shrimps will die and the neons will get sick.
> L


They almost all deal with chloramine. Its possible you have unusually high ammonia in your tap which would suggest some sort of biological clog rotting in your pipes.


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## lili

Pablo said:


> They almost all deal with chloramine. Its possible you have unusually high ammonia in your tap which would suggest some sort of biological clog rotting in your pipes.


Oh my !
It's a big building .... nothing I can do about.


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## Tabatha

I use Seachem Prime every time I do water changes. I'd never use BA's house blend, just don't trust it.

BTW, Menagerie was closed yesterday as was Finatics so guess where we went? Big Al's. 

Found 3 female rams, one of the three is just as big as my males with brilliant colour and blue rings around her black spots on either side. I'm hoping for good things from her. The other two females I'm not sure about, they're smaller and their colour isn't as vibrant. They looked fine in the store but not so good at home. Maybe they just have to acclimatize. Fingers crossed.


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## Tabatha

*More Deaths*

We discovered more deaths yesterday, specifically the cardinal tetras, we now only have 2 left. One was discovered on the bottom of the tank and the other was floating and partially decayed or eaten, suggesting it had been dead for a longer period of time. I suspect the others are somewhere amongst the plants or eaten.

TheDogFather thinks it may be the fertilizers but there's nothing I use in this tank that I don't use in the 25g and everyone appears to be healthy, active and robust in the 25g.

I thought maybe I was feeding too much but again, nothing goes into the 90g that doesn't go into the 25g (proportionately of course).

Should I stop feeding the fish for a day or two?

Should I stop all fertilizers?

I do believe I will pick up antibiotics tonight.

Grasping at straws ,

Tabatha


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## KhuliLoachFan

*sorry to hear you're having trouble.*

It sounds really frustrating. This is what knocks lots of people out of this hobby. Don't give up. Hold on, it will get better!

I made all the basic noob mistakes and killed a lot of fish, but I've never had a mystery tank ailment.

I think maybe a smaller "lifeboat" tank where you at least take most of your important fish out, and get them into known clean water, with a brand new filter and some old filter media from a known safe tank, might be a good idea.

W


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## Tabatha

Last Friday when we did our 50% water change, TDF took out the carbon and replaced it with biomedia but I'm not sure what percentage. The fish started dying before the switch and have continued.

I went through the various diseases and there just aren't any outward signs except for the female rams who were hanging out at the top of the tank. The tetra didn't do that.

I can't move the fish, no room. There are fish in the 20g Q tank and in the 25g. If it is bacterial, I don't want to spread it to the other tanks where everyone is doing fine.

I'm not giving up. I will dose the tank with antibiotics and see what happens. Are there any downfalls to doing this?

Thanks for your help!

Tabatha



KhuliLoachFan said:


> It sounds really frustrating. This is what knocks lots of people out of this hobby. Don't give up. Hold on, it will get better!
> 
> I made all the basic noob mistakes and killed a lot of fish, but I've never had a mystery tank ailment.
> 
> I think maybe a smaller "lifeboat" tank where you at least take most of your important fish out, and get them into known clean water, with a brand new filter and some old filter media from a known safe tank, might be a good idea.
> 
> W


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## Pablo

DO NOT use antibiotics in this situation.

You need to talk to harold and explain everything that's happened in detail and get his opinion


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## Tabatha

Will do. Thanks Pablo.



Pablo said:


> DO NOT use antibiotics in this situation.
> 
> You need to talk to harold and explain everything that's happened in detail and get his opinion


I sent Harold an email with all the details & my phone numbers.


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## Zebrapl3co

This is begining to sound more and more like a bacteria or something worst, a virus problem.
I think antibacteria is the only option that we haven't tried. Another possibility is to take out the decors, but that's kind of hard to do on a planted tank.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Tabatha

The only "decor" in this tank is driftwood, do plants count? What about substrate?



Zebrapl3co said:


> This is begining to sound more and more like a bacteria or something worst, a virus problem.
> I think antibacteria is the only option that we haven't tried. Another possibility is to take out the decors, but that's kind of hard to do on a planted tank.


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## Pablo

Tabatha said:


> The only "decor" in this tank is driftwood, do plants count? What about substrate?


I think he refers more to the posibility of gassing off from toxic paint. Some cheap ornaments do that.

I had some damn asian made p.o.s. giant rock formation that smelled like wet paint and made my nitrite spike EVERY time it went in the tank. The d-bag manager at petsmart wouldnt believe me and I was out $80.

As per your continuing problem- I think it might not be a bad idea to do a housecall from Wilson, or at very least have a really lengthy convo with Harold with as much detail as possible.

On a side note have you done an Oxygen Kit test with the water at the _very bottom _of the tank?? Doesn't hurt to cover every base...


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## Tabatha

*Harold's Recommendations*

Update: Harold suspects it may be a bacterial gill disease and/or flukes. He recommended using Erythoromycin in conjunction with Lifebearer Anti-fluke.

We'll start treatment tonight after work and keep the list posted.

I feel so dirty!


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## Pablo

Well the flukes can be easily diagnosed by just grabbing a recently dead or dying fish and bagging it then getting to a pair of tweezers and a very good high power magnifying glass.

Also all that stuff would cause labored abnormal breathing of some sort. Though the ram at the top does suggest breathing problems. I always say go with Harold though so gl!!

I would seriously keep a dead fish, and either check it under a microscope, take a picture, and send it off, or actually send it to a lab (The second option is pricey. The first one is too- if you dont have a microscope)


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## Pablo

*DONT BE DISCOURAGED!!!*

Everyone has some major problems at some point(s)


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## Tabatha

Pablo said:


> *DONT BE DISCOURAGED!!!*
> 
> Everyone has some major problems at some point(s)


Thanks Pablo, I appreciate the support!

The tetra we found on the bottom of the tank was slightly bloated. I never minded biology class so I pressed on his abdomen and a lot of white came out his back end. I never thought to look at his gills. I wanted to do a little dissection but didn't have anything sharp enough handy.

The other tetra had been badly eaten/decomposed so I didn't look at him.


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## Pablo

the gills are easy enough to get at. if you sever the head behind the gills then make a cut along the head from nose between eyes and split the head the gill arches should spread and remain intact and you can see all of them


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## KnaveTO

Tabatha,

sorry about everything that is going on in your tank currently. Wish I had some advise or answers but from reading all of this I have to agree and say Harold is your best bet here. 

I did want to comment on the Rams you picked up at BA's though. You mentioned they were nice and colourful and the like. If that is the case then there is a good chance they were Asian bred. If that is the case then there is also a very high liklihood that the females are sterile, sorry to have to say. Asian breeders treat their Rams with some sort of steriod to bring out the colours but it has a nasty side effect of making most of the fish shipped out of there sterile. I once asked BA's about where their Rams come from and they though it was Singapore.


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## Tabatha

Thanks so much for your advice Knave, it really sucks right now but on the bright side, I'm learning a tremendous amount, this is valuable experience for me and for other newbies on this list.

Learn from my mistakes!



KnaveTO said:


> Tabatha,
> 
> sorry about everything that is going on in your tank currently. Wish I had some advise or answers but from reading all of this I have to agree and say Harold is your best bet here.
> 
> I did want to comment on the Rams you picked up at BA's though. You mentioned they were nice and colourful and the like. If that is the case then there is a good chance they were Asian bred. If that is the case then there is also a very high liklihood that the females are sterile, sorry to have to say. Asian breeders treat their Rams with some sort of steriod to bring out the colours but it has a nasty side effect of making most of the fish shipped out of there sterile. I once asked BA's about where their Rams come from and they though it was Singapore.


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## Chris S

Hey Tabatha,

I didn't read over this whole thread too carefully, but something popped into my head that may or may not be a problem.

I think I remember you saying you use pressurized co2 in the tank and this post is made with that assumption.

First off, do you have a way to measure your co2 levels? Do you use the kH/pH measurement or a drop checker? Bubbles/sec method?

Secondly, do you use a solenoid? ie. do you turn the co2 off at night, or does it run all night?

If you don't turn it off at night, your fishies might be dying from a lack of oxygen.

I assume you thought of this already, but who knows - thought I would throw it out there.


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## Tabatha

Hi Chris,

We do have a drop checker from Seachem, we also have a solenoid which turns the CO2 off at night. We had already considered this but thank you for your input!

Cheers,

Tabatha


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## Tabatha

*Medications*

On the Planted Tank forum, they recommended Hikari ParziPro for gill flukes in a planted tank with shrimp & snails.

Ingredients: Oxybispropanol & 5% Praziquantel

Does anyone have experience with this? If you're too embarrassed to come out, you can PM me, I won't tell.


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## Pablo

I wouldnt go to that. its not specific enough. you wanna treat once, kill thrice, be done nice.


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## lili

Did Harold say that the shrimps will be ok on eritromycin ?


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## Tabatha

lili said:


> Why do you think is gill flukes ?
> 
> Did Harold say that the shrimps will be ok on eritromycin ?


Harold thinks it may be a combination of bacterial infection and flukes due to the female rams at the top of the tank.

He did not say if the shrimp will be okay. 

It looks like I may have to start this tank all over again. I may dip all my plants in a weak bleach solution.

Tabatha


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## lili

Tabatha said:


> Harold thinks it may be a combination of bacterial infection and flukes due to the female rams at the top of the tank.
> 
> He did not say if the shrimp will be okay.
> 
> It looks like I may have to start this tank all over again. I may dip all my plants in a weak bleach solution.
> 
> Tabatha


My shrimps did bad on any medication (even half dosage). Take them and the snail out. I never got a disease spreaded by shrimps or snails but .... no guarantee. I thinks it a problem with Praziquel and invertebrates but I cannot tell for sure.

Before taking the tank apart just do me a favor : a course of Maracyn2 (+2 extra days=7) or Maracyn+ the use some Paraguard-Seachem ( 2-3 days) and then add one fish (some kind of tetra) and see if it gets sick. 
Maracyn 2 can be taken by snails and theory says the invertebrates are ok with it. But ..... not really. There will be loses in shrimps.
L


----------



## Tabatha

*AP Anti-Fluke Life Bearer*

*Anti-Fluke Life Bearer

WARNINGS*
Do not use on: marine invertebrates, living rock, piranhas, Metynnis species, scaleless fish, bottom feeders, marine sharks or Lion Fish. Keep out of reach of children. Not for human or drug use. Do not use on fish intended for human consumption. Do not exceed recommended dosage.

Obviously I can't use this with the plecos. Any other suggestions?


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## Tabatha

lili said:


> My shrimps did bad on any medication (even half dosage). Take them and the snail out. I never got a disease spreaded by shrimps or snails but .... no guarantee. I thinks it a problem with Praziquel and invertebrates but I cannot tell for sure.
> 
> Before taking the tank apart just do me a favor : a course of Maracyn2 (+2 extra days=7) or Maracyn+ the use some Paraguard-Seachem ( 2-3 days) and then add one fish (some kind of tetra) and see if it gets sick.
> Maracyn 2 can be taken by snails and theory says the invertebrates are ok with it. But ..... not really. There will be loses in shrimps.
> L


Hi Lili, I'm confused when you say *"then use some Paraguard-Seachem (2-3 days) and then add one fish..."* Do you not dose the tank with fish in it?


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## lili

Tabatha said:


> Hi Lili, I'm confused when you say *"then use some Paraguard-Seachem (2-3 days) and then add one fish..."* Do you not dose the tank with fish in it?


Yes, of course. I was assuming there is nothing left in the tank .... sorry. You said you want to take the tank to pieces .... Yes, you can do the treatment with fishes in it.

If it's bacterial it should work. If it's fluke then it's another thing.

About plecos ..... I treated my Yo-Yos as babies with half dosage Maracyn2 (just because they were in a tank with a betta girl that I bought sick from Petsmart .... rescue). On full dosage their were showing stress, changing colors. With my yo-yo is very visible. But now they can take full dosage (they are one year old) and still complain a bitt but regain colors after some time. Some guy told me "Scaleless fishes should be able to take half dosage ....". Again, no guarantees. Another example : my glass cats. They took a Triple Sulfa course- half dosage when I bought them because of the whitish thing that they had on tails (got them from petsmart .... tiny sick babies). I had a glass indian fish with them but that one didn't make it.

I forgot to tell you that some people recomend the combo Maracyn (for gram positive bacteria) and Maracy2 (from gram negative). It says on the box it's safe to put them together. Better get Maracyn+ if you want a combo.


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## Chris S

Quarantine tank =)


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## lili

Chris Stewart said:


> Quarantine tank =)


   
Yes, got it. I gave up the quaranatine tank. A betta lives happy in it. 
I am just a beginner and I discovered that my "crazy" fishes suffer more from stress of moving in another tank than from disease itself. 
Just sharing my experience ..... not "expert advice".

I read that experienced fishkeepers solve their fishes' problems with melafix and some salt and change in temperature. I am faaaaar from that.
Tabatha's situation looked desperate enough to give her my opinion .... .

L

Ex quarantine tank:


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## Tabatha

No dead fish today... yet.

We read information on flukes and it really doesn't sound like it (fingers crossed). The Rasboras have been in the tank since day one, they appear to be unaffected, schooling and eating normally. We haven't observed any listlessness, red gills or hunger strikes or scratching.

We picked up the antibiotics on the way home but are going to hold off until we see signs of illness in the remaining fish.

I know you all must think we're crazy for not treating immediately but even the peppered and pygmy corys are dancing around the tank this evening, schooling and eating.


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## lili

Tabatha said:


> No dead fish today... yet.
> 
> .......
> 
> I know you all must think we're crazy for not treating immediately but even the peppered and pygmy corys are dancing around the tank this evening, schooling and eating.


Nope.
If there was something wrong with the chemistry of the water the shrimps should be gone by now. So, it's not that. Maybe a virus .... and the strong ones survived.
Let's hope for the better.
I am the crazy one. I would have given them a loooot of antibiotics 

L


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## daking

I'm only a newbie in this hobby, and I know what I would do is probably wrong in this situation (which is why I joineed this forum.. to learn), but if possible can you not remove the fish, drain and clean the tank.. with no cleaners, just good ole arm power, and fill the tank and if you cant wait for the cycle, add conditioner or cycle drops? I had all my tetras die over night weeks ago along with my flying fox... but everythign else is still alive and perfect... might it be an isolated case that affects one family, or kingdom of fish? (the specie heirarchy thing.. sorry loonnnng time since highschool biology). as it was only the tetras, but nothign else... maybe species of the fish are affected more than others?


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## Chris S

Tabatha, I would probably do what you are doing, just leave the tank and let it settle. Something is up, but if no more fishies are dying, then just let it stabilize.

I might suggest just raising the temperature a bit. A bit of salt and temperature has, in the past, cleared up many problems I have had.


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## Tabatha

*Iron Overdose?*

Is it possible to kill fish with an overdose of iron???


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## Chris S

Absolutely Tabatha - at a certain point it is very toxic to fish.


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## Tabatha

Chris, I was dosing 9mls 2-3x/week as my Blyxa was melting. Would this have caused the deaths???!!!

DID I KILL MY FISH??? 

BUT WAIT!

We did the 50% water change Friday, I have not dosed any more Iron since, yet many fish died afterwards...

We had another male ram die yesterday from the original 6 (5 died in total); I examined him, his gills were not red or swollen, I couldn't see any flukes, his eyes were remarkably bright and clear! If he weren't dead, I would've said he looked really good!


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## Chris S

Chelated iron?


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## Chris S

And I guarantee your Blyxa wasn't melting due to lack of iron.


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## Tabatha

Seachem ferrous iron (Fe+2) gluconate

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishIron.html

Why was my Blyxa melting when everything else in the tank is growing like ape sh*t?


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## Ciddian

ugh how frustrating...  *hugs* tabatha


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## Chris S

Probably lighting, or co2 distribution - who knows? But I really don't think a lack of iron will make the plant "melt".

To be honest, I'm not sure what levels of iron are dangerous, but that could have been the problem.


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## Tabatha

*Angel Death*

Another angel died today. TGF gave the okay to start the antibiotics. He initially thought that it was just the rams but fears were confirmed.

The angel looked perfect, gills nice, eyes clear except there was blotchiness on top of the head and behind the eyes like blunt force trauma. I don't know if this is because the angel is pure white and these are blood vessels. Our new camera won't do close-ups. I can try to take a pic with the video camera but it's pretty bad.

I'm a little emotionally drained at this point, death toll is 11 fish in 8 days.


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## Chris S

Hey,

It happens to everyone. Pull everything out of that tank (fish) and let that sucker cycle itself for awhile. Keep the plants going, throw in some snails and before you know it, it will be ready for fish again.

How old is the tank? How many fish were in it? What kind of filtration?

I know I could look at all your other posts, but I'm lazy


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## Tabatha

Chris Stewart said:


> Hey,
> 
> It happens to everyone. Pull everything out of that tank (fish) and let that sucker cycle itself for awhile. Keep the plants going, throw in some snails and before you know it, it will be ready for fish again.
> 
> How old is the tank? How many fish were in it? What kind of filtration?
> 
> I know I could look at all your other posts, but I'm lazy


Filters: Fluval 405 & A-170 Fluval 3 "Plus" Underwater 
Aquaclear Powerhead
RedSea CO2 Pro System
Coralife Turbo Twist 3x UV sterilizer

Can't remove fish, no place to put them, already dosed antibiotics. Instructions direct to dose again in 24 hrs then 25% wc and repeat.

Remaining in tank:

5 Harlequin Rasboras
2 Cardian tetra
7 Rummy nose tetra
3 Peppered corydora
3 Angelfish (quarter - loony size babies)
1 Ram
2 Endlers
5 pygmy corydora
5 oto
2 bn pleco

As you can see, there's not enough inhabitants to send a 90 gallon tank into a cycle all are under 2". Death toll is now 11; 2 rummy, 2 angelfish, 2(?) cardinals, 5 rams.

RCS, Amanos, Green Shrimp, a lot of snails, all seemingly unaffected. Saw pregnant RCS yesterday, Amanos flying around tank.

We're going to follow through with the antibiotic regime.


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## Tabatha

*WARNING: Photos of Dead Angelfish*

Right Side: 




Left Side:


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## Chris S

Are you sure it isn't just holding its breath?

Weird that some of the fish I would think would be more affected are the ones that seem to be still alive.

Finish off your medicating, then let that tank without any new additions for a few weeks.


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## Tabatha

Chris Stewart said:


> Are you sure it isn't just holding its breath?


I know what you mean, all the fish that died, with the exception of one tetra which was partially eaten/decomposed, looked great!



Chris Stewart said:


> Weird that some of the fish I would think would be more affected are the ones that seem to be still alive.
> 
> Finish off your medicating, then let that tank without any new additions for a few weeks.


That's the plan. Fingers firmly crossed that this works!

Thanks for your thoughts Chris, needless to say I'm a little sad/angry/depressed and frustrated.

- t.


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## Chris S

Hey, 

Just to put your mind at ease regarding Iron - I did some searching and it seems that really the worst thing a massive overdose of iron can do is start up some thread algae and diatoms - pretty safe in general for your fish.


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## Shattered

Tabatha said:


> I'm a little sad/angry/depressed and frustrated.


Usually at a time like this I would recommend, taking a break. Then after a bit come back to it and redo your tests. Maybe you missed something along the way.


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## Ciddian

If wilson gets a look at those vids he might know for sure...


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## Tabatha

Thanks Shattered, taking a break is easier said than done. 

All rams and angels were purchased from the same store. 3 out of 6 angels and 5 out of 6 rams are now dead plus 4 tetra purchased from BA's.

The last time I was in the store where I purchased the rams and angels, he said he'd lost about 50 angels and some rams. He blamed it on the water in Scarborough.

My water comes from Pickering.

Another person in Toronto lost several tetra, a gourami and something else in the past week.

I've posted to the DRAS list.


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## Chris S

Hey Tabatha,

If it makes you feel any better I woke up to 2 dead fishies today (1 Platy and 1 Dwarf Rainbow) in two seperate tanks.

It happens to everyone...I bet even Pablo and Wilson!


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## Tabatha

Yeah but 11 in 8 days?


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## Chris S

I'm sure people have lost A LOT more than that...and they probably don't care as much as you, they just let them die, then buy new fish. You have taken the time to seek information and help your pets. 

Your caring and concern means you ARE cut out for the hobby, trust me, your brand is pretty rare.


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## Pablo

Chris Stewart said:


> Hey Tabatha,
> 
> If it makes you feel any better I woke up to 2 dead fishies today (1 Platy and 1 Dwarf Rainbow) in two seperate tanks.
> 
> It happens to everyone...I bet even Pablo and Wilson!


....  ... but we totally deny it.


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## Pablo

Tabatha said:


> Yeah but 11 in 8 days?


This really sucks man....

Too bad its not something visible like tumors or something....


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## Tabatha

Pablo said:


> ....  ... but we totally deny it.


LOL! Thanks for the levity. I changed my avatar bc the sad little Pug was just too depressing. Chin firmly up! 








Mr. Winkle as a snail


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## Pablo

Tabatha said:


> LOL! Thanks for the levity. I changed my avatar bc the sad little Pug was just too depressing. Chin firmly up!
> 
> View attachment 1266
> 
> Mr. Winkle as a snail


I once lost an entire tank of mbuna to fish tuberculosis. I have no idea how it got in my tank...

It happens...

I didn't have plants though ...


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## Chris S

Didn't you say you left the hobby because you couldn't get your guppies to breed?


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## Tabatha

Pablo said:


> I once lost an entire tank of mbuna to fish tuberculosis. I have no idea how it got in my tank...
> 
> It happens...
> 
> I didn't have plants though ...


WOW! I'm sorry to hear that!

I can always start from scratch if need be but I'll do whatever I can to save the guys we have now.


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## Chris S

Tabatha said:


> WOW! I'm sorry to hear that!
> 
> I can always start from scratch if need be but I'll do whatever I can to save the guys we have now.


Unless your plants start dying, I'd say you still have a pretty nice tank there Tabatha.

I can get plants to grow, but christ, my aquascaping is like a 2 year old's fingerpainting.


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## Tabatha

Chris Stewart said:


> Unless your plants start dying, I'd say you still have a pretty nice tank there Tabatha.
> 
> I can get plants to grow, but christ, my aquascaping is like a 2 year old's fingerpainting.


Awe shucks Chris, it's just b/c I spend so much time in our terrestrial garden


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## Zebrapl3co

Tabatha said:


> ...He blamed it on the water in Scarborough.
> 
> My water comes from Pickering.
> 
> Another person in Toronto lost several tetra, a gourami and something else in the past week.
> 
> I've posted to the DRAS list.


I don't think it's the water because it's only happening to one tank and not the other. I still think it's either bacteria or virus problem. Virus being the more probable as virus tend to strike faster and slowly tappers off, while bacteria problem tends to work slowly and work it's way up to a peek.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Shattered

Chris Stewart said:


> I'm sure people have lost A LOT more than that...and they probably don't care as much as you, they just let them die, then buy new fish. You have taken the time to seek information and help your pets.
> 
> Your caring and concern means you ARE cut out for the hobby, trust me, your brand is pretty rare.


Chris is right on the money there.


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## Pablo

Chris Stewart said:


> Didn't you say you left the hobby because you couldn't get your guppies to breed?


??

Is that even possible?

I left because I have lead pipes and I can't be bothered running R/O 

I now keep fish only in the third person unfortunately.


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## Chris S

Pablo said:


> ??
> 
> Is that even possible?
> 
> I left because I have lead pipes and I can't be bothered running R/O
> 
> I now keep fish only in the third person unfortunately.


coughsarcasmcough


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## Tabatha

*Parameters 28 March 2008*

Parameters 28 March 2008, 9:58 p.m.

PH 7.3 - 7.5
N02 0
GH 9
KH 6
NH3 0
CO2 6


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## Pablo

Have you sent your water to be tested for heavy metals etc by the government??

thats how I found out bout my lead


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## Tabatha

Pablo said:


> Have you sent your water to be tested for heavy metals etc by the government??
> 
> thats how I found out bout my lead


Lead in your water would most likely be from the pipes, don't drink it.

Our house was finished in 1971, I'm almost 100% sure our pipes are copper but I'll check with TDF, he knows. I have heard of copper affecting fish and it's something I didn't really think about because all new construction uses copper.

At least there's a solution for that!


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## Pablo

copper tests are cheap and easy enough. Some are screwy and need to be read at the meniscus not in the water column read instructions carefully.

My house was made somewhere around the end of the medieval period so I have lead pipes.

Water's delicious and smooth.


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## Tabatha

*Update*

Monday was our last dosing of poisonous antibiotics, last night we did a major water change (almost 50%) and put carbon back in the filters. This morning the tank had crystal clear water again, it was so nice to see! No more of that murky green toxic water.

After all that, here is who's left:

3 Angelfish 
5 Pygmy Corydora 
3 Peppered Corydora 
2 LF BN Pleco 
1 Cardinal tetra 
3 Oto 
6 Harlequin Rasbora
7 Rummy Nose tetra
? Shrimp
? Snails

All in all, I think we lost about 18 - 20 fish including our sweet little Endlers who fought their hardest till the end, then just couldn't take anymore.

We'll be doing another fair sized water change this Sunday and will probably leave the carbon in for another week.

All new fish will be quarantined for a minimum of 2 weeks. Newbies, please learn from our mistakes!

Thanks for everyone's support, ideas and encouraging words.

Tabatha


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## lili

Sorry for the fishes. RIP. 
Any idea what it was ? WHich is your guess ?
L


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## Tabatha

Personally, I really have no idea. Chris S suggested it was something along the lines of new tank syndrome and I have to admit I agree. I'm not the most patient person in the world. 

TheDogFather thinks the rams may have been sick or very weak to begin with, we lost them all. We'll never really know.

During the course of antibiotics, fish continued to die. I think the medication may have had something to do with it.


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## Zebrapl3co

That's good to hear.
I've been on and off on this thread. But which tank was this? It's possible that there are too many fish in the tank.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Tabatha

It's the 90 gallon. I ran down the list with Pablo, he didn't think there were too many fish b/c the majority are dither/tetra.


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## Zebrapl3co

Wow, I never realized that is was the 90G, I was under the impression that it was a smaller tank like a 30 or 40G. Must have been hell trying to medicate a tank like that. You're doing a fantastic job. I remember myself caving in when my 30G had a similar meltdown and left the hobby for 10 years before I come back again.
Pablo is right, your stocking is fine. Is it this tank?








If so, how much have the corkscrew vals gown in the tank now?

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Tabatha

Zebra, yeah, that's the tank except it's much different now, the rocks are gone and there's another piece of mopani there instead. Maybe we'll take photos this weekend now that the green (medicated) water has cleared.

I've actually pulled some of the corkscrew val for other tanks, it's a great plant that does really well for me


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## gucci17

omg that's terrible to hear. I hope it all starts to pick up for you. I cringed the other day when I was transfering fish from my 55g to 75g and lost 2 SAEs. I was over confident that I didn't need to cover a bucket that was half full of water and left it unattended for about 30minutes while I was working on the 75 in the basement. When I came back up to check they were missing. It took me 20min to find them. 1 was under the dining room table and the other was in the vent. I was really sad and also amazed at the same on the fact that it really ended up in the vent. Live and learn right? Goodluck with the rest of your fish.


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## KhuliLoachFan

So, you think, by new-tank-syndrome, maybe you loaded up with fish too fast before the biofiltration/bacterial-ecosystem was stable enough?

I think it's equally likely, though I'm rather a noobie, that you got some weak or already sick fish from the store.

I think half my fishie deaths were my own incompetence, thus far, and I think that some of the fault was that my pet-store choice was not the best.

Next time around, I'm going for a well recommended breeder or a smaller pet-shop that really has knowledgeable staff, like the ones recommended on here.

Today, I discovered that the Khuli Loach that I assumed had died is still doing fine in my 30g tank. He just buries himself and hides himself so well I didn't see him in a month. Every now and then, there's a positive surprise in this hobby, at least! 

Hope you're not too discouraged.

Warren


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## Tabatha

Well, I just found out that my fish may have died because of flukes, not a bacterial infection, not new tank syndrome, not anything I may have done except quarantine new fish.

I had kept in touch with the store where I purchased my fish from, informed them what had been going on and was not advised on any kind of treatment or solutions despite the fact that they had lost a number of fish as well.

I've lost over 23 fish and killed several plants by exposing them to infected fish and dosing our 90 gallon tank with antibiotics which, in the end, was not necessary.

Needless to say I am angry, hurt and upset that this fish store didn't come clean with me. I would have respected them if they had told me the truth and would have been able to treat the problem quickly and easily.

Crappy lesson learned.

Thanks.

Tabatha


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## Shattered

I've always mistrusted LFS, I learned my lesson early on before I had an experience like yours. 

I'm sorry about what happened, but I'm glad that you found out. I think there would be nothing worse than always being in doubt that it would happen again.


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## Katalyst

I'm fighting the same thing in my 90 gallon. Mother in law dumped fish she didn't want into my tank that were sick while I was on vacation without my permission. Battleaxe wiped out my all 6 adult king tigers, starlights, rare livebearers and cories, its been 7 months and over $300 in different meds to no avail. 

I'm so sorry you are in the same predicament Tabatha, its not fun to watch them suffer and die and have to watch. Treating scaleless sensitive fish sucessfully is tricky.


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## Tabatha

Holy crap Kat! I'm sorry to hear you're going through the same sh*t I am! WOW! 

It is so heart wrenching to watch your fish at the top of the tank hoping they'll survive. I find antibiotics for fish so toxic not only to them but to the plants, I can't imagine what it does to our fish!

Big hugs!


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## KnaveTO

Tabatha, was it the store we both went to the day I bought your camera? If so that is rather weird as all 5 of the Bolivian Rams I bought are fine. I dod loose the 2 German Blue Rams while they were in QT. I have had no losses since then in my 50gal tank as the Bolivians have been transferred there.


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## Tabatha

Yes it was but if you remember, he had a major loss of over 50 angels and many rams. I lost all 6 of my rams and 3 angels. Will PM you.


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## lili

Tabatha said:


> Yes it was but if you remember, he had a major loss of over 50 angels and many rams. I lost all 6 of my rams and 3 angels. Will PM you.


OK. Now I worry. I lost my baby gourami and I am treating 2 of my bettas (very old bettas). I can PM you were I bought the gourami from.
I this PARASITE ?! I think is Columnaris.

What is it ?  
L


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## Chris S

KhuliLoachFan said:


> So, you think, by new-tank-syndrome, maybe you loaded up with fish too fast before the biofiltration/bacterial-ecosystem was stable enough?
> 
> I think it's equally likely, though I'm rather a noobie, that you got some weak or already sick fish from the store.


I was suggesting it was probably a combination of both of these causes.


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## Erika

*Re: dying fish*

I had a recent death from what I am not sure. I suspect because it was very sudden and quick that perhaps a tablet that I had put into the tank had some kind of contaniment. got in that way. I will definitely be more careful. I had also just given the extra and slightly redundant filter away so that could have been part of the root cause.
It has been my experience that when most fish get that sick they usually do not make it. 
In desperation sometimes a salt bath or even salt added to the water can make a big improvement in the fish' gill function. 
Good Luck.with your Ram.


----------

