# Stand advise needed, little unsure of the support.



## CRJ (Sep 7, 2012)

Hey guys, the more i think about it, the more im nervous about putting my custom ordered 36x24x16T tank on my stand. Heres why.

The stand is a 2x4 and 2x6 support. The stand is square and straight, and was going to originaly hold a 24x24x14 tank. I made the top supports framed out of 2x6, and the support boards between the 2x6's are 2x4's. The top plywood is 1/2", with a stain and clear.

Now, my supports between the 2x6 top are as follows. One 2x4 dead center, from front to back with 2 screws each end. Then, 12" on either side of the center brace is a 2x4 12" from center. (old tank footprint of 24x24)

My new tank is a miracles 36x24x16 rimless, 1/2" glass, tempered back and from the drawings its a non floating bottom pane. I was planning on running 2x4's under the ends of the tank (under the plywood) as currently the ends would be sitting on only plywood and overhang the underneath supports by 6".

I do need to re-finish the top as the clear didnt stick, and there is a wave in the plywood from one of the 2x4's being raised slightly higher then the 2x6's.

Can i get some advise on supporting this tank, what it needs, whats going to cut it and the best way to do this?

Id rather overbuild the hell out of it then take any risks. Tank is 4 weeks away for gotta get cracking.

Nate.

Pics:

inside:




































Center support is 2x6 up top, 12" out on each side is the 2x4's. stand is 48 long, tank is 36 long, so i want to place it dead center. What support do i need to add to keep it safe? Also do i need to go to 3/4" ply?









you can see in the above picture the 2x4 thats too high between the 2x6's. kicking myself for not catching that till it was stained and cleared. Now i get to tear it apart!


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

Imo, build a new one.

What you will spend to make this fit, vs time, and what you will spend to modify this one, its even in my books. Looks like you have space to build, so that isn't a concern. Do it right. Sell the old one (always someone with mts looking for a stand) and that will offset the cost even more.

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## CRJ (Sep 7, 2012)

J_T said:


> Imo, build a new one.
> 
> What you will spend to make this fit, vs time, and what you will spend to modify this one, its even in my books. Looks like you have space to build, so that isn't a concern. Do it right. Sell the old one (always someone with mts looking for a stand) and that will offset the cost even more.
> 
> Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


Thats all fun and great, but you havent said a thing about whats right for my tank. My sump is 36 long, the stand isnt getting any less long. My concern isnt size, its support. replacing the outside skin, replacing the 2x4 supports and repainting it is WAY easier then rebuilding it, theres no point to sell it and start over. I built a large stand for room in it, and i have loads of space where it going, i could run a 10ft long tank if i had the coin and determination.

i just need to know whats it going to take to make it handle my 60 gallon tank properly. ill worry about whats best for my wallet, i always like projects and excuses to work on things


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## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

CRJ said:


> Thats all fun and great, but you havent said a thing about whats right for my tank. My sump is 36 long, the stand isnt getting any less long. My concern isnt size, its support. replacing the outside skin, replacing the 2x4 supports and repainting it is WAY easier then rebuilding it, theres no point to sell it and start over. I built a large stand for room in it, and i have loads of space where it going, i could run a 10ft long tank if i had the coin and determination.
> 
> i just need to know whats it going to take to make it handle my 60 gallon tank properly. ill worry about whats best for my wallet, i always like projects and excuses to work on things


First, your stand is so overbuilt, you could park a truck on it! (this isnt a bad things as you've over-built it and made it look nice) put it up on the BUY/SELL to recoup cost. it'll move.

Second - I agree with J_T - rebuild the stand. Since you've mentioned price and time arent an issue its a no brainer. Keep a few things in mind (and I'm no expert, but I have built a LOT of furniture from scratch...) Tanks require a stable flat base, that base can be perimiter support (think steel stands) so cantilevering the ends IMHO is not a good idea. Also keep in mind that plywood on edge can hold an incredible load. If you really want I can dig up the #'s for various grades of ply.

the key issue is movement - the top cant have any deflection/warping corner to corner - that is what is going to stress the glass. This is why I like sheet-goods, as they are more dimensionally stable than lumber. Alternatively some people acommodate minor movement by use of a thin layer of foam as a cushion to absorb any differences (I did both)

The other plus of using sheet-goods, is it will increase your under-cabinet space, which if you're trying to cram a sump underneath plus pumps etc etc may be an issue.

If you have any questions feel free to ask, and check out the first few pages of my tank journal as they chronicle my build of my stand for my 65g (36x18x24)

oh, and take photos so we can see how you do your new stand!

Cheers,

Dave


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## CRJ (Sep 7, 2012)

df001 said:


> First, your stand is so overbuilt, you could park a truck on it! (this isnt a bad things as you've over-built it and made it look nice) put it up on the BUY/SELL to recoup cost. it'll move.
> 
> Second - I agree with J_T - rebuild the stand. Since you've mentioned price and time arent an issue its a no brainer. Keep a few things in mind (and I'm no expert, but I have built a LOT of furniture from scratch...) Tanks require a stable flat base, that base can be perimiter support (think steel stands) so cantilevering the ends IMHO is not a good idea. Also keep in mind that plywood on edge can hold an incredible load. If you really want I can dig up the #'s for various grades of ply.
> 
> ...


OK, thats the kind of info im looking for. Now dave, if you mean sheet goods, your talking making it out of 3/4" ply, i have two issues.

I dont own a table saw, and im very against laminated wood in a stand. I just dont trust it against moisture, the particle board stands scare me to no end.

The tank will have foam under it (any suggestions?) and added support, but i see no reason to toss what i have. My issue is the sump is a 36x12x12. add trim, its 37" long. even if i built a stand the same width of my 36" tank, the 37" sump wouldnt fit! yes i could replace the sump, and the stand, but why do all that? I already have the glass cut for it, the stand is already in my basement and getting it upstairs isnt easy, and its strong enough and large enough that when i want to go to a 48x24 frag tank and get say a 6x3x20 tank, i can.

What more im asking for is, will a 3/4" plywood top and 2x4's screwed between the 2x6's be enough (with foam) to support the tank. I then need to know how far apart to space my 2x4's between each other.

Also, miracles claims their tanks have a trim on the bottom. ( was never mentioned till i brought it up, so im not happy with them at the moment) they say put expanded polystyrene under the tank, the trim will squish the foam and all will be happy. I disagree with this big time, am i wrong? Ive asked them to build it without trim as it was never mentioned and not what i ordered. I would rather have 100% glass on the bottom, as their drawings show it as a non floating bottom, with the side and face glass on top of the bottom pane.


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## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

CRJ said:


> making it out of 3/4" ply, i have two issues.
> I dont own a table saw, and im very against laminated wood in a stand. I just dont trust it against moisture, the particle board stands scare me to no end.


Plywood isnt particle board. The types of glues used in plywood are typically water resistant to all but total immersion. its not the glue that fails, but rather the wood shearing off the glue due to expansion from moisture. A non issue if you seal you cabinet nicely with a good finish.

Re tablesaw- either get the sheets cut where you buy them, or ask nicely for help lots of people on the forum have tablesaws and dont mind lending a hand... I happen to have mine in my truck atm.... 



> The tank will have foam under it (any suggestions?)


Use closed cell insulation ie the pink or blue foam avail at home despot. 1/2 should be fine. Iirc i used 1" as its what i had. No issues 1 year And counting.



> and added support, but i see no reason to toss what i have. My issue is the sump is a 36x12x12. add trim, its 37" long. even if i built a stand the same width of my 36" tank, the 37" sump wouldnt fit! yes i could replace the sump, and the stand, but why do all that? I already have the glass cut for it, the stand is already in my basement and getting it upstairs isnt easy, and its strong enough and large enough that when i want to go to a 48x24 frag tank and get say a 6x3x20 tank, i can.
> 
> What more im asking for is, will a 3/4" plywood top and 2x4's screwed between the 2x6's be enough (with foam) to support the tank. I then need to know how far apart to space my 2x4's between each other.


Not sure where you mean to put the 2x4's so dont know. If you mean as cross bracing imho not needed off the top of my head.



> Also, miracles claims their tanks have a trim on the bottom. ( was never mentioned till i brought it up, so im not happy with them at the moment) they say put expanded polystyrene under the tank, the trim will squish the foam and all will be happy. I disagree with this big time, am i wrong? Ive asked them to build it without trim as it was never mentioned and not what i ordered. I would rather have 100% glass on the bottom, as their drawings show it as a non floating bottom, with the side and face glass on top of the bottom pane.


Not sure about the trim. My tank is from miracles and has trim (albeit second hand).Why disagree with it? If the are making the things stands to reason they might know what theyre talking about?


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## Hon123 (Jan 30, 2010)

"I do need to re-finish the top as the clear didnt stick, and there is a wave in the plywood from one of the 2x4's being raised slightly higher then the 2x6's.
"
so if this is your main concern, then i dont see any problem fixing it.
find a level and place on top of your frame, then you can see which 2x4s are sticking out, then trim it off either with a planer or sander or ???, which is handy for you. just make it flush from left to right and front to back. 
or just unscrew the 2x4s and nail it back, make it flush. 
do your measurements, and ask homedepot trim it for you, first 2 cuts are free, then every additional cut would be a buck each. 
apply PL glue on your frame/centre brace support, then lay plywood on top. screw all corners, then the centre brace, use a level and see if its flush or not. you might need to do some minor adjustments by either add more screws or loosen some and add more PL underneath. PL needs 24 hrs to cure and dont let it get on your clothes. its impossible to clean it.
also about the moisture problem underneath, just paint it with oil paint and done.



CRJ said:


> Hey guys, the more i think about it, the more im nervous about putting my custom ordered 36x24x16T tank on my stand. Heres why.
> 
> The stand is a 2x4 and 2x6 support. The stand is square and straight, and was going to originaly hold a 24x24x14 tank. I made the top supports framed out of 2x6, and the support boards between the 2x6's are 2x4's. The top plywood is 1/2", with a stain and clear.
> 
> ...


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I mostly skimmed this thread, your stand looks very very solid, but if the footprint of the tank is larger than the stand, build a new one to the right size and build it the same way and you should be set


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## CRJ (Sep 7, 2012)

Hon123 said:


> "I do need to re-finish the top as the clear didnt stick, and there is a wave in the plywood from one of the 2x4's being raised slightly higher then the 2x6's.
> "
> so if this is your main concern, then i dont see any problem fixing it.
> find a level and place on top of your frame, then you can see which 2x4s are sticking out, then trim it off either with a planer or sander or ???, which is handy for you. just make it flush from left to right and front to back.
> ...


Cool. that was my plan, going to swap the 1/2" top for 3/4" and add the supports till i feel safe.



pyrrolin said:


> I mostly skimmed this thread, your stand looks very very solid, but if the footprint of the tank is larger than the stand, build a new one to the right size and build it the same way and you should be set


other way around. stand is 48 long, tank is 36 so the tank wont sit on the outer "frame" but in the middle of the stand. Concerns were bowing of the top, just gonna reinforce the living crap out of it and be done lol.

so wood, foam, and time. ill update my changes when im finished.


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

So long as you transfer the load straight down you will be fine. Looks like a well built stand, but I wouldn't ever center a 36" tank on a 48" stand unless the load was transferred straight down below the tank.


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

RR37 said:


> So long as you transfer the load straight down you will be fine. Looks like a well built stand, but I wouldn't ever center a 36" tank on a 48" stand unless the load was transferred straight down below the tank.


Mine would scare the hell out of you then 

Build is on ap 

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## CRJ (Sep 7, 2012)

RR37 said:


> So long as you transfer the load straight down you will be fine. Looks like a well built stand, but I wouldn't ever center a 36" tank on a 48" stand unless the load was transferred straight down below the tank.


Its on 2x6 beams with 8 2x4 legs. The stand can take 1000lbs easy, its the sag between the supports in worried about, not the supports them selves.



J_T said:


> Mine would scare the hell out of you then
> 
> Build is on ap
> 
> Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

CRJ said:


> Its on 2x6 beams with 8 2x4 legs. The stand can take 1000lbs easy, its the sag between the supports in worried about, not the supports them selves.


Deflection shouldn't present over a 2x8. Hopefully it's crowned up, 8 2x4's and 2x8 can take a hell of a lot more than 1000lbs. It just depends where you place the load . Spreading 5000 lbs over the stand entirely isn't the same as point loading in the center. My comment about transferring the load straight down below the 4 corners of your tank had nothing to do with weight and everything to do with avoiding the deflection you may find by incorrectly loading this stand. Look at the data sheets for the lumber, you'll be surprised.

Placing a 36" tank on a 48" span without supports bellow each corner of the 36" tank is a mistake and poorly laid plan. Your stand is overbuilt for a 4' tank and under built for a 3'. Its not what you wanted to hear as you've worked hard at this one.


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## Hon123 (Jan 30, 2010)

hi bud, 
you can do some improvements and modifies on your stand on its supportive structure and have a peace of mind.
first remove those 2 diagonal 2x4s, instead replace it with a 2x4s straight up. if you are planning putting the tank center on the stand. then place the supportive 2x4s ~6'' apart from each sides. also add either 2x4s or 2x6s underneath the plywood where the tank sits on both side.
you can also add 2x4s leg support the front, so your openning would be ~36'', it all depends what you wanna put underneath the stand and your expected working area.
your stand can support way over 200gal for sure.


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## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

@rr37 disagree, if it were a 1000lb point load in the center of a 4' span then yes deflection would be a concern, but with the mass spread over the span, and only 6" from the edge on either side, assumig loaded weight of 1000lbs, (which is high for a 60 gallon). I highly doubt youd see enough movement to be appreciable.

If you'd care to run the numbers to calculate the deflection that would be awesome.


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## Hon123 (Jan 30, 2010)

with enough support legs and level surface, deflection shouldn't occurred. 
but keep in mind about the flooring, the stand should sit ontop of the support beam. the weight and pressure of the tank would ease off.


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

df001 said:


> @rr37 disagree, if it were a 1000lb point load in the center of a 4' span then yes deflection would be a concern, but with the mass spread over the span, and only 6" from the edge on either side, assumig loaded weight of 1000lbs, (which is high for a 60 gallon). I highly doubt youd see enough movement to be appreciable.
> 
> If you'd care to run the numbers to calculate the deflection that would be awesome.


I think we are making the same point, and I agree with your earlier comments made. If you can provide the lumber used along with fasteners I can get the info in .XXX OR simply running a calc based on length vs object length vs weight vs support width. Shearing 2" vs 6" vs 8" etc. Technically he'd only be shearing 3" +\- as the vertical 2x4 makes that unsupported gap smaller.

Spreading the load isn't really helping and actually is the problem. In this case deflection is calculated over 4FT. Variable x will be the imaginary markers representing the location where the 36" corners will come to rest. So. A 2-3% deflection over 4ft clicks out at (depending on lumber) 32'nd to an 8th on center. With a 4ft level resting on each corne you'd see a gap in the level to stand clearance of the dimensions mentioned previous. Now shorten that up to a 36" length, and we have something like 25% of the tank actually making firm contact to the stand below. We aren't discussing the stands ability to keep the tank from crashing to the floor. We are talking about the stands ability to support the weight correctly above. Using a live load calculation it would be an acceptable design, but dead loading it is not using a safety margin of 3-4. Parabolic tendons are not an ideal resting place for aquariums. If you could make the 2x6 into a doubly harped tedon I'd say your Disco ! But that'd require theoretical math I don't understand and tools I wouldn't know what to do with 

So long as the load is transfered straight down deflection will not be an issue with the present variables. Installing 4 vertical supports @ 36" CC problem solved. Installing a single support centered on 24" problem solved.

The stand will hold the weight, there is no risk of collapse or fatigue leading to a failure in the STAND. Shearing weight on boths ends of the stand should cause the 2x6 to deflect. Its a rimless, trimless tank, level even support is paramount. As the wood deflects the 2x6's ability to evenly support the tank is weakened significantly. The corners will take the load and the small insignificant gaps in the center portions will grow. A stand that is shifting is a tank that is shifting, less than Ideal. No amount of closed or open cell foam can help with this problem because deflection will change with temp, humidity and marginal fatigue.


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