# At a loss



## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Ok I know Iam new at this but my 10 gal planted is doing great what I dont get is all the plants are growing doing great however I have BBA on my moss from the pics Ive see. It didnt spread to the plants however. Ive been reading and reading why on the moss any ideas. Thanks


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## xxprudencexx (Sep 3, 2008)

pat3612 said:


> Ok I know Iam new at this but my 10 gal planted is doing great what I dont get is all the plants are growing doing great however I have BBA on my moss from the pics Ive see. It didnt spread to the plants however. Ive been reading and reading why on the moss any ideas. Thanks


They can appear anywhere..plants etc. Mine started on dwarf hair grass  .


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

BBA is often triggered by fluctuations in the co2 levels. Excel can eliminate it. I usually get a dose in a eye dropper and spot treat. Fissidens, val and shrimp are rumored to be badly affected by it. Personally, I was Over dosing my tank for 2 weeks and my val grew like a weed and my shrimp were pretty fine.


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## kweenshaker (Mar 11, 2006)

k I'm dumb....what's BBA?


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Black Beard Algae, and you are not dumb. I think you are one smart cookie actually.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

As far as I know, excel within recommended doses will not harm inverts. But yes, fissidens fontanus seems particularly susceptible to it, and does not recover well from it.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

BBA is def. triggered by low co2 levels, but will also form on plant roots, unhealthy, dead and dying plants. Likely due to leeching nutrients.

BBA isn't fun!


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Sunstar said:


> BBA is often triggered by fluctuations in the co2 levels. Excel can eliminate it. I usually get a dose in a eye dropper and spot treat. Fissidens, val and shrimp are rumored to be badly affected by it. Personally, I was Over dosing my tank for 2 weeks and my val grew like a weed and my shrimp were pretty fine.


Tried putting excel on it didnt work.


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Chris S said:


> BBA is def. triggered by low co2 levels, but will also form on plant roots, unhealthy, dead and dying plants. Likely due to leeching nutrients.
> 
> BBA isn't fun!


My co2 seems to be working fine I have one with a ladder diffuser on that tank I dont have any dead or rotting plants and I check that tank every morning for crap. I removed the moss so will see if any of the plants get it.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Maybe your moss was dying? I dunno.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I've found that most non-vascular plants (i.e. mosses, ~worts (such as Riccia)) are susceptible to Excel overdosing. Strangely enough, Vallisneria is a vascular plant that also seems to be affected by Excel overdosing (I have never tried the latter, only the former).


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Chris S said:


> Maybe your moss was dying? I dunno.


Well Chris I did a bunch of research over on the Tom Barr forum and you might be right I might have attached the moss and ricca on to thick I am going to give it a hair cut then take it apart and redo it. Ill see what happens. One thing is Iam sure learning alot now at my age If I can just retain it lol


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

One reason I like trying to grow plants is that there is so much mystery to it, while it has to be nothing but biochemistry.

Anyway, I am not so confident that it's triggered by _low_ co2.

Some argue that _fluctuations _in co2 are the main source. So if you reduce 
frequency of water changes, your plants will better adapt to low co2 
(since changes introduce co2 and reduce adaptiveness of plants to low 
co2 conditions).

I don't know if this is true, but it seems as plausible as the low co2 hypothesis.

(btw: my main source is Tom Barr. Worth checking out his views)


Chris S said:


> BBA is def. triggered by low co2 levels, but will also form on plant roots, unhealthy, dead and dying plants. Likely due to leeching nutrients.
> 
> BBA isn't fun!


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Prodicus said:


> One reason I like trying to grow plants is that there is so much mystery to it, while it has to be nothing but biochemistry.
> 
> Anyway, I am not so confident that it's triggered by _low_ co2.
> 
> ...


 Yep Thats what Ive doing one reason I dont think its algae is it hasnt spread at all in a week or so also the ricca has it too now which was in a tank with no co2 . .


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## kweenshaker (Mar 11, 2006)

Katalyst said:


> Black Beard Algae, and you are not dumb. I think you are one smart cookie actually.


aw, shucks!


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Prodicus said:


> Some argue that _fluctuations _in co2 are the main source. So if you reduce
> frequency of water changes, your plants will better adapt to low co2
> (since changes introduce co2 and reduce adaptiveness of plants to low
> co2 conditions).


I personally don't buy this, as the effect of the CO2 levels changing due to water changes would be so acute and transient, you'd have to constantly be changing the water to get the kind of fluctuations you'd need to cause long term change.

Most likely low CO2 coupled with high nutrient availability causing algal growth to be favorable over plant growth.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

ameekplec. said:


> I personally don't buy this, as the effect of the CO2 levels changing due to water changes would be so acute and transient, you'd have to constantly be changing the water to get the kind of fluctuations you'd need to cause long term change.
> 
> Most likely low CO2 coupled with high nutrient availability causing algal growth to be favorable over plant growth.


Not to add any confusion to the thread, but to give my opinion...

I find BBA often grows on weaker areas of plants when there is low availability of nutrients in general (namely, co2 and potassium in my experience). It seems to draw nutrients from dead, decaying, injured - and sometimes just weak, areas of plants.

Not sure if anyone else has had the same experience or not, but I've seen this happen over and over again.

That said, root cause (as with just about everything...) is an imbalance in nutrients.


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

The idea is that the adaptive mechanism for low CO2 conditions is gained slowly (under constant low CO2) but lost quickly when CO2 is introduced. This seems plausible to me. Plants can take long to grow and then melt in a matter of hours. So why can't the adaptive mechanism melt away in similar fashion?

It's interesting how many view are out there. Barr claims that the problem in low CO2 tanks is actually worsened by limiting nutrients. So his advice is to supplement nutrients. He says that it is when plants cannot grow that algae blooms. So let them adapt to low CO2 and make sure their growth isn't limited by other deficiencies.

I believe Walstad, Barr and others have actually tested some of their hypotheses. I wish there was some science here, but I guess there aren't any grants available for aquarium science.



ameekplec. said:


> I personally don't buy this, as the effect of the CO2 levels changing due to water changes would be so acute and transient, you'd have to constantly be changing the water to get the kind of fluctuations you'd need to cause long term change.
> 
> Most likely low CO2 coupled with high nutrient availability causing algal growth to be favorable over plant growth.


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

My experience is that BBA attacks nice healthy leaves on my swords, crypts and even Java Ferns. Then it attaches to substrate. The plants have relatively broad sufaces and are the slowest growing in my tank. I have read that BBA is more likely to afflict slow growing plants.



Chris S said:


> Not to add any confusion to the thread, but to give my opinion...
> 
> I find BBA often grows on weaker areas of plants when there is low availability of nutrients in general (namely, co2 and potassium in my experience). It seems to draw nutrients from dead, decaying, injured - and sometimes just weak, areas of plants.
> 
> ...


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Prodicus said:


> My experience is that BBA attacks nice healthy leaves on my swords, crypts and even Java Ferns. Then it attaches to substrate. The plants have relatively broad sufaces and are the slowest growing in my tank. I have read that BBA is more likely to afflict slow growing plants.


That said, I notice a degree of what you are taking about on Anubias, and often on the roots and rhizomes of slow growers, like java fern.

To go along with what I am saying though (and this is pure speculation on my part), I've found that many of these slow growers and plants like swords and vals (however, I've never experienced BBA on any of my various crypts) have an innate inability to repair damaged (and/or weak) leaves.

I find when java fern or anubias leaves are damaged, they will likely die off in place of newer growth.

As for val and swords, their leaves are often so fragile and prone to melting that a) they are damaged easily and b) when they are, they die fast. Val has always been one of the plants I have seen a lot of BBA on, especially the older leaves.

I don't want to imply you are wrong, just giving my experiences here. My thoughts are based solely on my experience and a bit of trial and error in my algae/plant tank =D


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

I don't really have a theory of my own, actually, so I can't be wrong.

And I certainly don't have enough experience of my own from which to 
generalize -- my tank has only been running for two months or so. 

But among those with lots of experience, there is no consensus on these 
issues anyway. I'm very interested in hearing about the experiences 
others have had with growing plants (especially in low tech tanks).



Chris S said:


> ....
> I don't want to imply you are wrong, just giving my experiences here. My thoughts are based solely on my experience and a bit of trial and error in my algae/plant tank =D


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

The only experience I have Is last year I had a really nice 10 gal growing for about 3 months low lights and low light plant some one told me to add ferts to it so I added flourish at the recommened dose and the hole tank went to hell. There was BBa everywhere I had to rip down the whole tank. On my new tank Iam using Toms method of EI overdosing ferts and a large water change 50% to 75% a week so far its working except for the moss and iam not sure the moss has algae. Still nothing on the plants and its been over a week.


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