# Newbie question



## kamal

Hi Guys, 

I am finally making my first venture in the SW world (gulp). For cost reasons (yes initial setup) and space I am currently looking at a 20g with 10g sump. 

I would like to keep some easy care corals (do they exist?) and fish will def be secondary to my overall setup direction.

I have been doing a ton of reading and to be honest the wealth of information is overwhelming. I thought setting up a planted tank was confusing 

I would like to keep this all on as low a budget as possible to begin with and I am hoping you Marine/reef guys will be as kind (and gentle on my stupidity) as everyone else has been so far here. I am looking at a $300 max spend (of course I know this will change with time). This does not include lifestock and is just for hardware and initial setup. I already have a spare 10g with a couple of aquaclear 20s which I could use as refugiums if required. 

Will I need a skimmer on this setup? Will the sump need to have baffles? Do I need a hob over flow? Will metal halide be best for lighting or does my budget mean I should look at power compacts? Should I get a RO unit or can that wait? and most importantly will someone here be kind enough to actually help me put this all together once I have all the required kit  my main fear especially with the sump is flooding my apartment :s

Thanks in advance 

Kamal


----------



## Kooka

Hey Kamal, I'm a saltwater newbie myself, and in my extremely limited experience on the saltier side of the hobby, I can definitely say a couple of things are a must and can't be skimped on. 

Firstly, an RO unit would greatly benefit you, unless you're willing to buy your RO water at places like Walmart or BA's. I would also definately invest in a good skimmer, buy a good one and you wont be disappointed. If you're interested in the easier corals only (like mushrooms, zoanthids and many others), a good T5HO light would suffice. One thing you have to remember is add things SLOWLY once you see that your system has finished it's initial cycle. One thing this hobby really requires is a lot of patience (and money), so if you have both you should do well 

I'm not sure if you could successfully setup a 20 gal for $300, but then again I could be wrong. Good luck on your project and hopefully the saltwater gurus will chime in!


----------



## kamal

Thanks for that response Kooka. I am hoping to buy as much used stuff as possible. 

As for cost I know it might not be manageble on $300 but I am thinking if I can get the basics for now and then add other 'nice to have' items as $ allows.


----------



## altcharacter

Congrats on jumping into the SW world!! First off if you're interested you could come over to my house and check out my setup. It's a 20g with a 10g sump that is fairly established. This will give you a feel for what you might or might not want in yours.

Here's my breakdown of what my 20g cost. You can add or subtract anything you might have already

20g tank and stand $50
10g tank $10
20lb Live Rock @ $4/lb $80
25lb aragonite $20
Tunze 6015 $50
koralia 240 $20
2x24" T5HO $50 (good price!!)
2 T5 bulbs $45 for both
Eheim 1250 $50
Kent 200g salt $40
refractometer $30
glass for baffles $9
silicone $3

Total is $457

I also bought a used RO/DI system off CL for $40

So I pretty much spent around $500 to get my system up and running and this of course doesn't include corals or livestock. I'm pretty sure I've left out a few things but I think this is the bare minimum to get a system started. 

I'm not trying to discourage you from your budget, but rather make it a realistic overview of what you could be spending. I actually started cycling my tank with nothing in it except a piece of LR to get it started, then waited a week and added aragonite and more LR when I had the funds the next week and also time. It's going to take awhile to get your sump siliconed and your plumbing setup anyways.

Good Luck and welcome to the club of eternal poor guys with beautiful aquariums!!


----------



## kamal

Thats awesome I would love to come over some time and have a look thank you for the invitation.

I accept that I will spend more money and I do not include the purchase of live rock/sand/salt as a part of the $300 budget. Thank you for the list of equipment it helpful to know what others include in a similar system to what I want. 

The plan with this budget is to get started with what is a must have then over time "invest" in what else is required.


----------



## sig

do not spend money on sump, skimmer, pump (to pump water from the sump to the tank)

You can perfectly rum 20G without all this stuff.
My friend *altcharacter* forgot to say that you will need $15 to drill hole, $15 for bulk head and you will need some kind of overflow box or overflow wall, plumping. It also cost money You can put $1000 in 20G tank and in few months you will go bigger for sure.
Hopefully, you will sell this setup for third that you paid.
*Go simple* and see if you will like SW.

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## kamal

Thanks Sig I like the sound of this advice. So what would you recommend to me in order to get started with a 20g?


----------



## sig

kamal said:


> Thanks Sig I like the sound of this advice. So what would you recommend to me in order to get started with a 20g?


20g tank and stand 
20lb Live Rock 
25lb aragonite 
Tunze 6015 $50 (could be Koralia 550 )
koralia 240 $20
*2x24" T5HO $50 (good price!!) 
2 T5 bulbs $45 for both*
Kent 200g salt $40 or Instant ocean salt
refractometer $30

There are plenty LR on sale for $3.lbs and used sand for 0.50. I think you can get sand even for free.
You can also buy Dry Marko rock in SUM and build structure which you want.
http://www.seaumarine.com/specials.htm

When buying LR from people be sure that it is not infected with aphtasia. (check the web).
When buying T5HO fixture make sure that the bulbs are not compact. These bulbs will cost you fortune.
Try to get used light, but it is always nothing available when you need it.
That is what David was talking about, but the original bulbs are crap in this lamp and goreef probably will send you another brand
This is new one
http://www.goreef.com/Current-USA-Nova-Extreme-2-bulbs-T5-HO-10K-460nm.html

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-liv...or-sale-200-for-everything-W0QQAdIdZ356920338

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-180-pounds-of-live-rock-W0QQAdIdZ356230995

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-Saltwater-live-rock-W0QQAdIdZ355527223

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-DEAD-DRY-LIVE-ROCK-W0QQAdIdZ339924782

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## altcharacter

yeah for your first tank definitely go with a used lighting system in my opinion. It will save you alot of money and you can fool around with the lamps without worrying about breaking or damaging a $500 system. 

I did leave out the plumbing because it wasn't necessary in every system but I like the idea of having a sump and overflow for extra volume and filtration. Although Greg the Russian Bear is right about the skimmer not really being needed. Although it wouldn't hurt.

As for coral just hit any of us up when you're ready. There are alot of free/cheap frags out there for beginners from people like myself on the forums.


----------



## sig

altcharacter said:


> yeah for your first tank definitely go with a used lighting system in my opinion. It will save you alot of money and you can fool around with the lamps without worrying about breaking or damaging a $500 system.
> 
> I did leave out the plumbing because it wasn't necessary in every system but I like the idea of having a sump and overflow for extra volume and filtration. Although Greg the Russian Bear is right about the skimmer not really being needed. Although it wouldn't hurt.
> 
> As for coral just hit any of us up when you're ready. There are alot of free/cheap frags out there for beginners from people like myself on the forums.


you my friend already planning bigger tank in the basement, but since your 20 will stay forever your situation is different from others.

We can not afford two tanks. 

Also, i did not mean to screw you when I sold you light and you got two new bulbs for $45.
The new one with the new bulbs cost 80+tax

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## 50seven

What Sig and Alt said. 



Ghetto DIY FTW! Cheap misers like us will always find some new creative way to make something do what it was not designed for.

If you already have a tank or 2, you are only an order from MOPS away from putting in a bulkhead and overflow. For a return pump you can even use a Home Depot pond pump (I found one in the bargain bin for about $20) get a used powerhead on the forums here for about $20-25. Keep an eye out on the classifieds too for some live rock and sand- there's usually some going around.

If you're desperate for a cheap temporary light, you can even use a couple Phillips Daylight CFL (they run at 6500K and can get 100 watt equivalent.) I have one 60 watt equivalent running on my 10 Gal QT tank where I've dumped a pile of frags. The colour isn't as vibrant as under my KZ bulbs in the display tank, but everything is healthy as ever.

Cheap out and use a hydrometer for now, just grab one off eBay for under $5.

________________

...In a few months you will be hooked and planning to upgrade to a 50+ gal tank and buying a $500 lighting system  Bwahahaha!!!!!


----------



## 50seven

altcharacter said:


> Good Luck and welcome to the club of eternal poor guys with beautiful aquariums!!


+1


----------



## altcharacter

PM me when you want to come over and I'll give you a hydrometer to start out with. I might also have a few other goodies I can give/sell you that might help you start up your tank.

I'm on EI right now so everyday is the weekend for me!!


----------



## Tim

altcharacter said:


> yeah for your first tank definitely go with a used lighting system in my opinion. It will save you alot of money and you can fool around with the lamps without worrying about breaking or damaging a $500 system.


Go everything used if you can. I am always seeing complete or close to complete ste ups in the classified sections here. There are always a group of people who want the latest and greatest and will sell off their "old stuff" off for cheap. Prey on their weakness haha.



altcharacter said:


> As for coral just hit any of us up when you're ready. There are alot of free/cheap frags out there for beginners from people like myself on the forums.


For sure. I have 3 corals in my tank to learn about them before I get into more complex ones. I went small: $5.00 for a kenya tree (think canary in a coal mine. It closes up if the water goes wrong so it can be used as a early warning system) $5.00 for a GSP and spent $10 at NAFB when I went there with altcharacter on a zoa with "something else coral" on it as well LOL.



50seven said:


> What Sig and Alt said.
> 
> Ghetto DIY FTW! Cheap misers like us will always find some new creative way to make something do what it was not designed for.


YES!!

- I have filter socks made from felt ($7.00 for 1 filter sock, I made 10 or 12 for 1/2 that using felt)
- I used a food grade canister from a dollar store that I drilled holes in and hung on the side of my tank to hold chaeto

- Look for 50sevens method of making his own live rock



50seven said:


> If you're desperate for a cheap temporary light, you can even use a couple Phillips Daylight CFL (they run at 6500K and can get 100 watt equivalent.) I have one 60 watt equivalent running on my 10 Gal QT tank where I've dumped a pile of frags. The colour isn't as vibrant as under my KZ bulbs in the display tank, but everything is healthy as ever.


You may get some algae (i did in my display tank) from using the CFL's but who cares.. it will give something for your snails to eat 

The biggest piece of advice I can give since I am just a few months ahead of you is don't be in a rush.

- If you take your time acquiring your stuff you will save a ton of cash. It isn't uncommon to find tanks in the sale section here at a buck a gallon.

- don't buy stuff because you think you may need it. Buy it because you KNOW you need it.

- Don't be afraid to walk away from something if you aren't sure. I recently walked away from a fish that I badly wanted as the owner of the store refused to feed the fish in front of me. I still regret it  but know it was for the best


----------



## sig

Everybody is right on their own. Go cheap with crappy DIY (if you are not handy) and your tank will looks exactly the same. It will be good just as the show tank for the closet.

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## kamal

You guys are brilliant! I have however decided to make a slight turn due to your opnions and serious tank envy. I was building a stand for a new 40g breeder to be my new planted tank but have decided to totally stuff that idea and instead make it a reef (the diy stand has space for a 20g sump under it too  If I am going to spend the money why not have something I will be more content with for longer (until I move out of my apartment to a house thus obviously requiring an even larger setup)

Ok I have scrapped any imaginary budget but still want to keep it 'reasonable' (dont laugh)

I will get the stand finished this weekend and upload some pics and keep you all posted. Also if anyone along the way has more words of wisdom/encouragement keep it coming  

And if you spot any great deals for used equipment (and dont need it yourself) let me know. 

Thanks


----------



## sig

good , but do not try to drill bottom of the tank. 40 breeders are usually bottom tempered.
Also. make sure you will drill on the proper high

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## kamal

Dont worry prior to any drilling I will be here bugging you all with a million questions


----------



## sig

kamal said:


> Dont worry prior to any drilling I will be here bugging you all with a million questions


yesterday you decided to go with 40 and did not drill yet 

i was assuming you already have a salt water in it 

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## kamal

haha yes I have itchy feet to jump in two footed but courtesy of some sound advice I am being patient (just about)


----------



## altcharacter

Yeah a 40g is a great idea for a reef! Also it's paid for already right? There are a few people on the forums that could drill it for you when you're ready to do it. Also, doing a 40g isn't much more of a start up cost than a 20g in my opinion. To cycle the tank you won't even need real lighting so you could save a few bucks there for a month or so. Also, I think Liz was selling a bucket of aragonite for cheap if you want to pick that up.


----------



## kamal

With all this confusion comes more confusion...I was just browsing the web and found this guys tank a 40g breeder that is sump and skimmer less.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1506957

Any of you guys doing that?


----------



## sig

This could be good deal for you

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31925

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## sig

kamal said:


> With all this confusion comes more confusion...I was just browsing the web and found this guys tank a 40g breeder that is sump and skimmer less.
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1506957
> 
> Any of you guys doing that?


Many people do it. Just 5G water change weekly and you do not need skimmer and sump also.

Sump i just place with additional volume of the water where you can have all equipment hidden. You can hang on skimmer, phosphate/ carbon reactors, refusium on the tank and it will be just ugly, but will work the same as in the sump

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## kamal

sig said:


> This could be good deal for you
> 
> http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31925


That deal has been done.....almost.....that works out great for my target budget too  I was already speaking to the seller before you posted.


----------



## altcharacter

the idea behind a sump/refuge is the addition of water volume, a place for pods to grow, and an area for filtration to happen.

A tank doesn't need a sump/refuge but it's just another addition to make your tank happy.

Anything you add to your tank weather it be a skimmer, phosban reactor, or sump will only help water quality and anything to help water quality is a good thing when you get busy and you can't do water changes that frequently. We've all been in the situation where we say "dam, I need to change that water"


----------



## Tim

I run skimmerless but have a 20g fuge with some live rock rubble, critters, deep sand bed, chaeto and fern caulerpa.


----------



## kamal

sig said:


> This could be good deal for you
> 
> http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31925


Woohoo yet another change of plan.....I have purchased this setup and it is pending pickup on sunday


----------



## 50seven

Nice to see that tank go to a good home- it was quite nice when Teemee had it set up, good luck!


----------



## altcharacter

Awesome to hear and you can't beat a all in one, ready to go system. I've also always loved the shape of that tank.


----------



## carmenh

That's CRAZY! How do all his LPS's not nuke each other?!?!



kamal said:


> With all this confusion comes more confusion...I was just browsing the web and found this guys tank a 40g breeder that is sump and skimmer less.
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1506957
> 
> Any of you guys doing that?


----------



## kamal

50seven said:


> Nice to see that tank go to a good home- it was quite nice when Teemee had it set up, good luck!


To be honest I have not seen the tank but have been told by TeeMee it is in good condition.

I always loved these tanks too then to have this deal come up i couldnt say no. It hasnt gone too far out of my original imaginary budget for equipment plus the bonus of having the rock and sand.... oh I am a happy camper. I will ensure to keep a journal for the progression of this tank


----------



## kamal

As you guys can now all see the spec of my tank from the link lol (bonus). Are there any benefits of going to metal halide? I love the shimmer from those lights and will be on the hunt for a used one.

Oh and of course an RO used unit is required now too


----------



## altcharacter

Yes, the benefit of a MH lamp is the amazing weight it will take off your wallet! You get to change bulbs every 6 months at the cost of $60-$100 a bulb! And, you get to wrestle with your cooling since it will run at the temperature of the sun!!!! 

=P


----------



## kamal

altcharacter said:


> Yes, the benefit of a MH lamp is the amazing weight it will take off your wallet! You get to change bulbs every 6 months at the cost of $60-$100 a bulb! And, you get to wrestle with your cooling since it will run at the temperature of the sun!!!!
> 
> =P


LOL ok scrap that then


----------



## Tim

altcharacter said:


> Yes, the benefit of a MH lamp is the amazing weight it will take off your wallet! You get to change bulbs every 6 months at the cost of $60-$100 a bulb! And, you get to wrestle with your cooling since it will run at the temperature of the sun!!!!
> 
> =P


and you forgot the hydro bills LOL.


----------



## kamal

as i was looking through that list of equipment what size of heater shall I get? Do i need some power heads for circulation?


----------



## 50seven

kamal said:


> as i was looking through that list of equipment what size of heater shall I get? Do i need some power heads for circulation?


Try a 200 Watt heater, or a pair of 100's. Or ask Teemee what she used. And yes you do need a couple powerheads, depending on the size. Once again, maybe you're best off to ask Teemee how things worked out for her, she would be the best person to ask, as she ran the tank for a while, plus she has experience.


----------



## Tim

I would go with 2 smaller heaters. If one craps out (in the on position) you won't fry your tank, (if the off position) your fish won't get nailed from chilled water.

I have a 100 running in my tank and a 50 in my refugium. I tested it the other day and my tank temp ran fine with only the 100. I like the 50 as a backup though( and good for heating salt water lol)

I bought a used 40 the other day and it came with a single 200.


----------



## altcharacter

If you're going to run two different heaters I would definitely run it on something like a controller so you can tell if there's something broken. A controller in general is a good purchnase to have and that's going to be my next purchase for myself. My tank is at the point where everything is running beautifully and I would hate to have something like a heater breaking take out the tank.

On a side note, if you're going to run T5HO's on the tank then you don't have to worry about heating the tank. The lights will do that for you weather you like it or not. The heater will just be there for supplement and heating at night.

I'd say go with a 100w. On my 20g with 10g fuge I'm running a 100 but I have it cranked down to 68 degrees but it keeps the tank warm at night to 76 and the daytime the tank warms up to 80 with the lights on.


----------



## kamal

well got the setup home, and it weighed a ton to move this tank lol. Need to now breakdown my old planted setup and move this into place. The sump Teemee was running was too big to fit under the stand so she had removed the door. This is going in my living room so thats not an option. Any ideas? I was think to remove the center divider and instead install a 2x2across the middle supported by 2x2 at the front and back of the tank. This would mean I could run the same sump or I can down size to a 5g sump (more in the name of storing equipment out of sight that the value of a sump I guess.......any ideas?

Thanks 

Kamal


----------



## Tim

Depending on how big, bring the stand forward from the wall, get a piece of wood and lay it on the floor and let the tank stick out the back with part of it resting on the wood. If the tank is sticking out 4 or 5 inches well maybe not


----------



## kamal

"THE AQUARIUM STAND" only sticks out about 1-1.5 inches....But that would mean cutting out the back of the tank something im not so sure I want to butcher.....But good idea


----------



## Tim

you mean the stand LOL.

Have a look at the material. Usually the backs are made out of cheap fibre board. Cut a hole the size of the tank, slide the tank through that inch nobody will see if it is against the wall. One day if you decide you want to put the backing back on, you can pick the fibre board up cheap. Go to Rona or HD and price it out of course.

If not, by all means just get a smaller tank, or you could make your own to fit it using acrylic (but it will be expensive just for a sump).


----------



## altcharacter

Sell the stand you have and build a new one. Nothing worse than having something you're not happy with. I know alot of folks that buy the tank and then just make the stand themselves because they know what they want and they don't want to hassle with something they they wouldn't be happy with. 

People love buying stands!!!


----------



## kamal

Tim said:


> you mean the stand LOL.
> 
> Have a look at the material. Usually the backs are made out of cheap fibre board. Cut a hole the size of the tank, slide the tank through that inch nobody will see if it is against the wall. One day if you decide you want to put the backing back on, you can pick the fibre board up cheap. Go to Rona or HD and price it out of course.
> 
> If not, by all means just get a smaller tank, or you could make your own to fit it using acrylic (but it will be expensive just for a sump).


hahahaha amended accordingly lol


----------



## kamal

Well the tank has been set up and is almost ready for its first inhabitants. I am getting more live rock and will be changing the scape a little over the coming weeks. I think the rock structure needs to be taller.

Would you recommend putty to hold it together or drilling it and using acrylic rods or cable ties?


----------



## kamal

Apologies for the poo quality picture will post more pics in the coming weeks


----------



## kamal

Will do a front FTS, I have rescaped recently and cleaned the glass after being lazy the last month  

Also one of the Clowns has jumped since this shot. There were only 2 in the tank the rest are an optical illusion lol


----------



## zk4444

I just saw this thread now, what a deal you got there with every thing that came with the tank from teemee 

I paid only a little less for the same tank tank which only came with a fairly new canister and dual t5 ho 24w lighting.


----------



## kamal

zk4444 said:


> I just saw this thread now, what a deal you got there with every thing that came with the tank from teemee
> 
> I paid only a little less for the same tank tank which only came with a fairly new canister and dual t5 ho 24w lighting.


Agreed it was a total steal and Teemee is an awesome person to deal with should you ever get the chance to do business 

I will rebuild the stand next month and get a new sump setup as a result of the free space as well as an Auto top up


----------



## sig

I would personally attach some kind of the trim on the stand to cover dirty sand. It will look much better

*100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3*


----------



## kamal

sig said:


> I would personally attach some kind of the trim on the stand to cover dirty sand. It will look much better


And my wife would agree whole heartedly 

When the new stand is built it is one of the requirements I have. Until then the ugly sand is staying


----------



## kamal

Having moved to temporary accommodation two months ago I finally setup my dt again. I haven't had time to build a new stand so for now the ugly old one remains. I am trying to figure the best way to mount the par38 bulbs I have. In my old place it was off the ceiling but here it will have to be tank or stand mounted. Ideas welcomed


----------



## Ryan.Wilton

So much to read.... SO I didn't read it all lol.

I could see you doing one for $300. I put my 10gallon SW together for $100. But I don't have corals, I have an anemone and that's it lol. no skimmer or sump either. But I'm sure if you watch your cost, and research where you'll buy to begin with, you could probably get it around your cost. Maybe not complete with all the corals and fish you want, but those can come with time, and with time comes more savings for our addi..... hobbies...


----------



## kamal

Thanks for the response I should update my signiture to show my current equipment. But I have everything I need for this setup got a steal of a deal from a MOd  It was broken down when I moved and only just put back up. I will update pics shortly as I move the livestock from the temp tank to this little thing over the next week. 

Anyone have advice on how to mount par38 leds for this thing?


----------



## kamal

Slowly slowly


----------

