# KH high, Ph low???



## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey there. I have a question. I know there is a relationship between KH and Ph however i am a little bit confused. My KH is sitting around 15 and my Ph is around 7.8....i am adding seachem marine buffer to bring the Ph up however wont that make the KH even higher? Or is it an inverse relationship? Somewhere i read that the higher the KH the more difficult it is to change the Ph...but having said that, when the Ph does finally rise will the KH drop down to where it should be between 9-11? I use only RO water so i am also wondering why the KH would even be high and why the Ph would be low.
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks in advance

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

Yikes..... do you run a calcium reactor? Really 7.8 pH is not that bad....I would stop worrying about it as there are only 2 things that effect pH that you should be concerned with and that is the disolved oxygen level and the alkalinity. The higher the alkalinity the higher the pH and yes adding buffer will raise the alkalinity. Also like I said disolved oxygen levels effect the pH....higher O2 higher pH.

If your tank has proper alkalinity and proper O2 (not running a ca reactor?, enough fresh air in the house?) than just stop worrying about pH. I havent checked my pH in 5 yrs or more.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey thanks for the reply. Im not running a calcium reactor and im still kind of confused...so youre saying Kh (alkalinity) is more important than Ph because they should go hand-in-hand? My Kh is too high right now (sitting at 15-16) but my Ph is low at 7.8 (shouldnt it be at 8.3-8.4?)...so if adding buffer to raise my Ph will also increase my Kh then what do i do in this situation? My corals are feeling the effects of the slightly skewed Ph and Kh levels because they are not opening up to their fullest like they used to.

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

jamie1985 said:


> Hey thanks for the reply. Im not running a calcium reactor and im still kind of confused...so youre saying Kh (alkalinity) is more important than Ph because they should go hand-in-hand? My Kh is too high right now (sitting at 15-16) but my Ph is low at 7.8 (shouldnt it be at 8.3-8.4?)...so if adding buffer to raise my Ph will also increase my Kh then what do i do in this situation? My corals are feeling the effects of the slightly skewed Ph and Kh levels because they are not opening up to their fullest like they used to.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2


your PH is perfect and I suggest you test your alkalinity with another test kit to make sure. 15 is very high 
I am not sure that you have 15
API test for alkalinity is cheap ~ $12 and reliable. Just make sure you will get it for SW

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php

he pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is an acceptable range for reef aquarium

How you test PH? My crappy PH monitor needs calibration every month

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

I tested for carbonate hardness and it is 15-16..i guess that is not the same as alkalinity? I am using API tests for high level Ph and Carbonate Hardness

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

Carbonate hardness is the same as alkalinity. And Im saying forget about your pH (didnt I say this already ?). As long as your ALK (more important yes) and O2 levels are good you can forget about pH. The only time O2 might be an issue is when running a calcium reactor or a small chance if you have a newer home sealed up tight and no HRV or your not running the bathroom or kitchen fans enough.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok so how do i lower the Kh? I tested it three times and i got 16,15,15...should be around 11 no? And i also just did a 5G water change with RO as well.

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

You should just let it come down naturally over time by your tanks inhabitants utilizing it. Water changes could speed up the process if the w/c salt has lower alk than your tank. i like to keep my alk at 8dkh,..11 shoukd be ok but i little high for my preference.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

I use instant ocean sea salt so it should be ok....but until it comes down i dont want to lose any corals...can i dose calcium to help bring it down? Or does high alk mean there is too much calcium in there? Thanks for all of your advice thus far!

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## BIGSHOW (Sep 10, 2011)

Do nothing but small frequent water changes. Do not add anymore supplements or buffer.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Sounds like a plan...i will just do water changes and let things sort itself out. I did buy a product today from seachem that raises ph without afecting alkalinity so i might try that and keep an eye on the levels...my thoughts are if the ph is where it should be the kh will follow...correct?

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

did you bother at least to open the link in my post?

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey Sig yes i did...however eveyone is basically saying to not get too hung up on Ph values because it its difficult to get an accurate reading in he first place and more importantly if the alkalinity is where it should be, the Ph will follow...it is a great detailed post about what Ph is and how it works though! Now my goal is to get my KH down because i just retested twice and it is 17-18 dKh...are water changes the only thing i can do for this?

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## rburns24 (Jan 31, 2011)

Check you salinity with a refractometer calibrated to NSW at 35ppt, not RO/DI water, because using anything else but a 35ppt solution will give you an inaccurate reading.

The only to reasons for alkalinity being that high that I can think of are:-

a) You dumped a large whack of buffer into you tank 
b) Your salinity is way too high

Good luck in sorting it out.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I think yes for WC, because I do not know how reduce Alkalinity by other means. I know for sure, that Low alkalinity is result of the high Calcium, but we do not know what is your calcium and more important if you can use calcium to reduce alkalinity.

*Any way, when playing with chemistry, you can not increase parameters in a hour*

I simple do not know the answer and would go what Darrel and Hydrologist say, but..

There are few experts on the Reef Central (author of the article) who will definitely answer your question. I am always go there, when not satisfied with answers here

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Salinity is 1.0215 @ 78 degrees

My KH was high before i added buffer which probably didnt help either. The only thing i can rhink of is that a little while ago i topped up (maybe a liter or two) of tap water because i didnt have RO at the time but i cant see how that little amount could throw eveything out of whack...thoughts??

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for the advice Sig! I dont have a calcium tester but if there is a relationship between low alkalinity and high calcium than probably if alkalinity is high than calcium may be low? Maybe i should get a calcium tester! in any case i will probably do a couple of water changes and give it time to work its way down.

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

> I did buy a product today from seachem that raises ph without afecting alkalinity so i might try that and keep an eye on the levels


To my knowledge a product like this doesnt exist. What is it you bought?



> Now my goal is to get my KH down because i just retested twice and it is 17-18 dKh...are water changes the only thing i can do for this?


 Yes, water changes are the safest and best way to get things back in order now.



> Thanks for the advice Sig! I dont have a calcium tester but if there is a relationship between low alkalinity and high calcium than probably if alkalinity is high than calcium may be low? Maybe i should get a calcium tester! in any case i will probably do a couple of water changes and give it time to work its way down.


Thinking of calcium and alkalinity as some sort of seesaw where one goes up and the other automatically goes down is not correct in the slightest.

Firstly if you do things right you should never be in this situation but it comes a point when your tank can become over saturated in either calcium, alkalinity or both. When either level gets too high or they are both too high than they can precipitate out of solution. Sometimes its just as a build up on heaters, pumps (heat sources) and other times it can almost seem like snow in the water column. This precipitate is calcium carbonate and contains both alkalinity and calcium. This is not something you ever want to happen in your tank.



> Any way, when playing with chemistry, you can not increase parameters in a hour


 That is forsure.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey thanks for the info...the product is called OH balance for reefs..."hydroxide blend, balances the carbonate buffer system ratio, raises pH without affecting calcium and alkalinity" aquavitro a premium line from Seachem....it seems to have worked...Ph is back to 8.3 and i guess i will do a couple of water changes over the next few days and give it some time!

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

Again......just listen to me. You are trying to change a symptom (although I dont think you have a problem from what I can tell anyway) vs. trying to change the cause. If in deed you have low pH ....that is a symptom of something else going on (ie. the causes being low alk and/or low O2).

I did a google search on that product and read the first thread that poped up in the RC reef chemistry forum.....it seems the product can and will raise alk but for some reason seachem doesnt like to admit it.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1388302

and further research where you will find Randy Holmes Farley stating... there is no such product that only raises pH with out raising alkalinity.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2027733&highlight=balance

Calibrate your meter and if that doesnt make you feel better...turn on the bathroom fan. ie....if you do have a problem its obviously not low alk so get some fresh air in there. You can also try kalkwasser (calcium hydroixde) once your alk comes down.....that is if you could use the supplemental alk and calcium.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey! I get what you are saying...Ph wont just randomly drop for no reason...but my alk is too high right now, not too low? So what are you recommending i do? Just wait it out? So far that product has not affected my alk and the guy i deal with at my lfs said he uses it on all the tanks he services if they need it and his own tank and he said he has never seen it affect alk levels...there are just so many opinions

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

Ya but Randy Holmes is a trusted pHd Chemist and the most well known reef chemistry expert......I choose to listen to him over the guy at the LFS.

Problem is you are adding a product to solve a symptom of a problem you probably dont have....and if you do have a real issue you are not looking at the real problem.

go a head....dose what ever you wish.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey im liatening to everything you are saying and im not doubting anything...all im saying is that from my point of view there are a lot of opinions out there...i obviously dont want to dose the tank if it doesnt need it or its not targeting the real issue...i understand that my pH is out of whack probably because my KH is high....but again im asking for your advice on what i should do?

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## darryl_v (Aug 26, 2011)

> You should just let it come down naturally over time by your tanks inhabitants utilizing it. Water changes could speed up the process if the w/c salt has lower alk than your tank.


Post #9...


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

jamie1985 said:


> i obviously dont want to dose the tank if it doesnt need it or its not targeting the real issue.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2[/QUOT
> 
> ...


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

The only reason i am adding stuff to the tank is because it is the only arvice i have received so far on exactly what i should do...so far you guys have told me my pH is fine at 7.8 (but it should be up around 8.3 idealy), and that it seems like there is a problem in my tank but the Ph drop is only a symptom of the real problem, but that there might not even be a problem....listen guys i do appreciate all of the information youve given me and the time spent on my issue, however i still feel like i havent received any real advice as to what i should do with my tank....my KH is high at 16-18 dKH and my Ph is a little low...all i was wondrring is what people would do if they were in my position...i have just lost all the fish in my tank to marine velvet back on the 20th and i dont want to lose my corals and cleanup crew due to out of whack pH and alkalinity too (which has happened since there have been no fish in the tank)...i am in the process of letting my tank sit empty of fish for a while to get the velvet out so i have time to get the water levels back to normal...

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for the advice on just letting it come down naturally as i think that is what i will do....but when my KH comes back to normal levels will my pH do the same?

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

jamie1985 said:


> The only reason i am adding stuff to the tank is because it is the only arvice i have received so far on exactly what i should do...so far you guys have told me my pH is fine at 7.8 (but it should be up around 8.3 idealy), and that it seems like there is a problem in my tank but the Ph drop is only a symptom of the real problem, but that there might not even be a problem....listen guys i do appreciate all of the information youve given me and the time spent on my issue, however i still feel like i havent received any real advice as to what i should do with my tank....my KH is high at 16-18 dKH and my Ph is a little low...all i was wondrring is what people would do if they were in my position...i have just lost all the fish in my tank to marine velvet back on the 20th and i dont want to lose my corals and cleanup crew due to out of whack pH and alkalinity too (which has happened since there have been no fish in the tank)...i am in the process of letting my tank sit empty of fish for a while to get the velvet out so i have time to get the water levels back to normal...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2


did you read what you just say my friend 

"...so far you guys have told me my pH is fine at 7.8 (but it should be up around 8.3 idealy), "

If after all you continue to argue that you have low PH, good luck...

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

I get that in that article 7.8 pH is still considered normal...but borderline...what i am saying is that it is uncharacteristic of my tank to have pH that low. It has always been around 8.3 up until a couple of weeks ago and my corals are feeling the effects because they are not opening up as much. I just dont want to lose anything else from my tank thats all...

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## Taipan (Feb 12, 2012)

Hi there. I've followed this post and have just re-read it in its entirety. The best advice and suggestion is to 'let it be' for now and at most; perform water changes. I've learned things in this post and agree with both of these points from those that have responded.

It's very difficult to counter what you might find as intuitive or quite simply - having to scratch that 'itch'....do dose/add additives. It's a slippery slope to add one item only to add another to counteract side effects of performing the former. I also empathize with losing a whole system of fish and wanting to save/salvage what coral you have left. We've all been there. Trust me.

That being said; your ph is not in your preferred parameters. But as most have concurred here; still acceptable. My two cents: ride it out. Difficult for you to do - yes. We can't tell you want to do or counteract your rationale only suggest and guide. Sometimes - doing nothing (or marginally little of something) is actually beneficial. 

Good Luck with your ph/dkh conflict.


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for your input Taipan...and youve hit the nail on the head there...its not that im disagreeing or am not apreciative of the comments thus far because thats not the case...im just frustrated with all that i have lost and trying to salvage what i have left...i realize i may be overreacting about the levels but i just dont want to lose anything else....i will give it some time, do some water changes and see what happens...thanks for all of the advice everyone...i will post back here when things improve

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## Taipan (Feb 12, 2012)

No worries. We're all here to learn. Now....again...that being said......

Not one to kick a person while he/she is down; and this may be another can of worms/topic for a different thread.....now that we have NEW information (your display being nuked of fish from Velvet - or what you may think is Velvet)....you may want to think back and re-examine other forces at play. These forces may be the cause or symptom of your dead livestock and swings in ph and dkh. If you think you are going insane - you are. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? (I'm not touching this one).


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Haha well i religiously check the water params on a daily basis and up until after the velvet finished wreaking havok on my tank the water levels were constant at ammonia 0, nitrite 0, pH 8.3, nitrate 30ppm, KH 11-12 dKh...it wasnt until after the fish were gone that the pH/dKh started going wacky....i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that there are now no fish in the tank?

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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Well, 10 days and 2 water changes later my pH is back to 8.3 and my KH is down to 12 dKh... I tested fresh RO water mixed with salt and it was reading 9 dKh...i thought it should be lower but i guess the salt adds some as well. Long story short, i guess the closer i get my dKh to 9 (not that i want to get it that low, around 11 would be great), the less difference water changes are going to make. A couple more should do it! At least its stabilizing now! Thanks everyone!

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## Taipan (Feb 12, 2012)

Brilliant. Sit back and enjoy the ride.


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