# Huge Tragedy this am....how did this happen???



## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Woke up this am to go feed my Taiwan babies and my cpo's in the planted tank. The baby Taiwan's breeder box feeds off this tank.

ALL 9 of my Taiwan 6 week old babies were dead  Looked in my tank and 2 of my Amanos and one of my CPO's ALL dead 

The ONLY thing I did last night before shutting off the lights (and everyone was just fine at that time) was add 3 of the plants I bought from BA's to the tank. I didn't take off the iron band thing that holds them together, so wondering if something leeched off this and went thru the tank, or could it have been they are heavily fertilized with copper????

I am NUMB!


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

DAMN 
Sorry to hear that 

Isnt iron bad for inverts? or was it copper? or both? 
should do a big water change


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

The plants were Rotala Macrandra nice red color, and Myrophyllum Tuberculatem also nice red. Could this type of plants be poisoness to shrimps?? 

Nothing was changed or added to this tank other than these 3 plants which I didn't remove the band because I didn't want them all floating free until I got time to plant them.

Did I do something wrong?????


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

Did you rinse the plants from BA's first?
If I get plants from them, I usually rinse them first. 
Nothing really goes into my shrimp tanks unless it has been quaranteened. 
Maybe there was some bacteria that was on the plants or in the sponge holding the plants or the band...could be many possibilities with the plants


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

probably some chemicals for snails killed them because they usually quarantine the new plants in a container with insecticides before putting it on sale.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

I am sooooo stupid   I should have just put the plants in the bottom tank which has only co2 and floaters in it right now, but I didn't.

I just fished 2 weak amanos out of the tank and put them in another setup tank that I had ready for the babies to go into in a week or so.

They are still alive and seem to be reviving a bit....all other critters are out of this tank and I did a 50% water change with RO, and changed out the floss and rinsed out the sponge in the filter.

I will leave this tank for a few weeks (with regular water changes) to see if whatever got into it has been eliminated...then will try something snail etc
to see if it lives.

Never thought about that for pond snails....your probably right and that's what's done it.

Geez I am sooooo mad at myself for not thinking....I was tired from driving around all day, but that's NO excuse for stupidity.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your loses 

We all do things at some point that kills something in our tanks. I know I've been guilty in the past.


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

Sorry for the loss, that is brutal.

In the future never put 'new' plants directly into a shrimp tank. Also the metal bands are usually lead, which I wouldn't put in any tank let alone a shrimp tank.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I have learned from bad experience to quarantine my plants that come from fishstores, specially big al which has sick fish in them sometimes. Also, i clean the plants, then dip them in Potassium Permanganate or Hydrogen Peroxide, even if coming from other members.

However, i must say i am surprised, that is alot of deaths in just one night, if it is really from the plants, they must have put something really nasty in it.

Sorry about your loss Anna.


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## novice (Mar 14, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the loss - I never ever put new plants into an established shrimp tank - and really appreciate you posting for others not to make the same mistake.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm very sorry for your loss.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

thanks everyone for your nice words. It helps.

I won't make the same mistake again, just didn't think and wasn't aware
that LFS like BAs would have plants with pesticide or anything else on them, a lesson learned.


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

dont worry anna your not the only one experienced that. It happened to me also when I bought some new mosses from kims nature and didnt quarantine it. 6 of them died. Lesson learned also


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## aaronc (Jul 24, 2008)

Sorry for your loss Anna! 

Most plants purchased from retailers contain traces of either pesticide or ferts, the reason being is that most plants will not be approved for import if they contain snails and other living organisms. The residual of these pesticides are harmful to shrimps. If any case rinse the plants, or what I do is soak them over night in a bucket and add bit of prime and carbon. After the soak I rinse well under some odd aquarium water. 

Hope that helps. 

-a


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

When I disturb my substrate I sometimes get a death... Strange so many though. Has to be chemical for sure to kill that fast


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear of the losses Anna. That really hits where you live. 

But I hope I can set your mind even slightly at ease about those bands used for weighting down plants, They are never iron or even steel, because they rust. Most weight bands I've seen recently were made of lead, or possibly zinc. I recently saw some made of short ceramic tubes, which were nice. 

But the metal ones, even the ones you can buy new in blister packs, are lead or zinc. We think of lead as very toxic, but in the minute concentrations found in home water, which was nearly all from lead solder at the joints, it took years for anyone to show ill effects. I'll grant you, kids show it much sooner. But because these metal bands leach so very, very slowly into water, it's highly unlikely the water could have become toxic enough overnight from a few bands on plants. 

I'd be more inclined to suspect something that came with the plants themselves, possible mishandling after harvest, or carelessness during shipping; perhaps some nursery growing practices where they come from. 

The example I'm thinking of is houseplants, so very many of which are which treated with hormones to make them look more desirable. The common one, iirc, is giberellic acid. Somewhat temporary dwarfing effect; compact, sturdier growth, shorter nodes with more leaves & more & showier flowers. Been done for decades. T'is the reason houseplants often never recover the looks they had when you first acquired them.

I truly do not know if such are used in water plants, though if they are grown emersed, it could be. Plant growing emersed might also use different fertilizers than for submersed growing. That bright red one you got would most probably have been dosed with a lot of iron. But the last time was before it left the nursery, so it would have been utilized by the time it got to you. 

Perhaps even a contaminant in the shipping container of some kind... they would not worry about that in the same way they would if shipping fish or inverts, would they ? I'm grasping at straws for an explanation that makes some sense I guess.

Fwiw, after acquiring scuds, hair algae and more pond snails than I ever want to see again, my policy is for all store bought plants go into a plant QT. Even after rinsing,, removal of dead leaves and roots or any snail eggs I find, I've learned I can still find even more hitchhikers and it's those I want gone. 

Already had hair algae that way. Last commericial plant batch gave me, after a week or so, nearly a dozen scuds, plus a familiar looking green insect larva. Slim,large eyes like fish fry, tail in 3 sections. Predator, so I was glad to dump him. Can't remember if it's Mayfly or Dragonfly.. don't care, he is gone.

I no longer want scuds with shrimp since I learned they'll kill and eat baby shrimp, so they now share a tank with daphnia from Igor. Hope they get along. If not, have to one of them a new tank. Every now and then I try to catch the scuds from the other tanks that have them, but may not ever get rid of them all.

Btw, Anna, if they survived my last water change, which due to a minor error was much larger than intended, I have some Amanos.. I could spare a couple to help rebuild if you want. PM if you'd like some,


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Anna, I feel so bad for you!  I think I easily could have been in the same boat as you, as I purchased one of the fluval flora tanks from PJ's and was going to purchase some plants that were on special. I decided not to do it right away, since I wasn't setting up the tank for several days or weeks.... I am glad I didn't, as I am afraid of where I may have put them..... I guess I better learn from this. I am so sorry for your loss.


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## razoredge (Dec 31, 2011)

Egonsgirl said:


> Anna, I feel so bad for you!  I think I easily could have been in the same boat as you, as I purchased one of the fluval flora tanks from PJ's and was going to purchase some plants that were on special. I decided not to do it right away, since I wasn't setting up the tank for several days or weeks.... I am glad I didn't, as I am afraid of where I may have put them..... I guess I better learn from this. I am so sorry for your loss.


Hi Anna, 
sorry to hear your lost of your tibees and CPOs. Like Tina, I had picked up a flora tank but decided to purchased plants from PJ (Yonge & Lawrence) and didn't even think about QT the plants. I put in my display tank as the flora tank wouldn't be setup until the weekend. The plants had the lead weights and I've immediately taken them off last night. I was lucky but this is a good reminder for everyone!!


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## Dman (May 1, 2012)

That sucks alot! I hate seeing dead shirimp ESP when I have anything to do with it... at least u know ur method is successful and there's a group order from ebiken coming soon I see, hopefully can get new genes  sad to ask but what kind of tibee were they?


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Andrew here is the last pic I took of them a few days before....5 BKK pandas.
2 wine reds, and a couple of 1 bar BKKs....total 9 Taiwan bee 6 week olds!


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## Dman (May 1, 2012)

Awe that sucks, I have been setting up
My rack n my tigers have been dying off one at a time I don't think they like the akadama  hopefully they get use to it. 

You should ask the big ALS about there plants n tell them they should clearly have a visible sign stating they clean the plants with stuff... 

Did you happen to lose your Bb too? I lost mine  the tank I had them in slowly crashed n everyone died I was so upset, so I shut down n set up all there homes befor I ever get more. 

Feel like going to the states to pick up shrimp? I'll drive


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

sorry for the loss anna. You should definitely talk to Big als because they should warn their customers about this problem. I don't think they will give you any compensation though.


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

I guess they don't tell anyone/or maybe the guys who work there don't know either that the plants can/might be sprayed with something. 

In the long run it was my own stupid fault. I have read on other forums how people quarantine or clean plants before putting them in an established tank, but never thought about why??? Now I know why. 

Maybe my loss will help prevent someone else from making this same mistake! 

I did have 3 gorgeous BKK babies from the previous hatch go into the other Taiwan tank and are doing just great...in fact I think they have all grown again. 

Im just glad that I had moved all of my adult Taiwans a couple of weeks ago to this new tank, otherwise the deaths would have been ALL 20+ of them 

Andrew EBI-KEN has a shipment coming soon, probably easier to go that route, with all the new rules at the Border for fish etc. Shrimps are now on the new Cities list as having a permit needed to import them.


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Hey everyone..... I just came across this as I was surfing. Sorry Anna. Too little too late. But maybe this will confirm our suspicions. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co....ebruary_24_2012&utm_term=PFK_investigates:_Sh I hope I did this right!


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I just read that Egonsgirl, I posted it on our FB too. I would have never thought to QT them myself Anna, I would have done the same.. I am so sorry


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

Egonsgirl said:


> Hey everyone..... I just came across this as I was surfing. Sorry Anna. Too little too late. But maybe this will confirm our suspicions. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co....ebruary_24_2012&utm_term=PFK_investigates:_Sh I hope I did this right!


I think all the answer is here thanks for sharing egongirl


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## bettaforu (Sep 6, 2009)

Thank you Tina for finding this article. It will help others save their shrimps from the same death as mine.

I will also post it on as many forums as I can to help our shrimp hobbyists that like me didn't know this was going on. 

I can understand the need to keep unwanted insects out of our habitats, however I do think the LFS should make buyers aware of this situation.

I will notify BAs as to what has happened and maybe they can post a notice on their plant tanks that ALL plants need to be washed and quarantined before adding to any tanks that might contain inverts.

At least now I know what killed them.

I did put carbon in my tanks to help clear out anything, and will continue to do water changes over the next few weeks. Inverts will not be added to my plant tanks. My big filter shrimp and my Oto were not harmed, nor were my nerite snails, and one of my CPO's survived too....guess they were hardier than others. I did manage to resurrect one of the Amanos, who is happily munching on biofilm on my lava rocks in the small 2.5 gallon tank.

Many thanks for this research!!!!


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

When I mentioned I thought the nurseries could be using heaven knows what to grow the plants, I was actually thinking about North America.. not Asia. The article Tina found was a real eye opener, though I am not surprised at the use of the chemicals, I was surprised at how persistent they can be under some conditions. 

I was quite surprised to hear they were using Imidacloprid. When it came out it was considered to be remarkably safe, as pesticides go, and was used on both edible and ornamental crops, in fields and greenhouses. It had little effect on mammals, so was considered less of a worry, and was very effective against mealy and scale bugs, both of which are persistent pests that are virtually impossible to control completely. This chemical in particular may be present on plants from greenhouses, especially if they came from the US to start with. Made by Bayer originally, I think. If you have houseplants from greenhouses, I'd be very careful to keep them away from your tanks, and wash your hands if you handle your houseplants, before you touch a tank. I'm fairly careful about this, because I sometimes spray my plants with horticultural oil. While it is pure mineral oil, and is considered so non toxic it is allowed for organic farming, I still worry about it getting into the tanks. So I try to wash my hands before I put my hand into the tank.

Crystal Meth Shrimp mentioned a friend who put flea meds on a pet, the kind that is placed on the fur of the neck, then put his hands later into his shrimp tank, and lost all the shrimp in it. Don't know what brand of flea med it was, but chances are good it had Imidacloprid in it.. it's popular for this purpose now too. If you have dogs or cats and use those flea drops, be careful !

I have almost always kept new plants in a bucket for at least a day, and it's always tap, unheated, usually with a light. It can run to another day or two, depending how I'm feeling, so that may have helped me avoid some problems of this kind, but last week I got some Phillipine fern from Al's. While it was well rinsed, it never went into the bucket. It went into a small shrimp tank.. just 2.5 G. Does not appear to have done any harm to the shrimp in that tank, that I can see, but I'm going to remove it. 

But I took another piece of that fern and put it into the other 2.5 G tank where I was keeping scuds and my new daphnia, and the next day, there were no daphnia visible, though the scuds are still alive. I'd sure like to know where all the daphnia went overnight.

Either a dozen scuds consumed what must have been a hundred or more daphnia, which they'd ignored previously, or something else happened. The fern seems the only likely suspect. The daphnia were hale and hearty Thursday and Friday when I fed them. I put in the fern late on Friday, largely to give the scuds something to hide under. Saturday, no daphnia were visible. Very discouraging, because I want to culture them, but it never occurred to me that a plant would kill anything until this thread and Tina's link. Now I know Dapnia are vastly more sensitive to some chemicals than even shrimp or snails.

The fact I have been holding plants in a bucket for a day or two after cleaning and rinsing well, has often been more because I have mobility limitations and am too tired to get to planting, than because of worries about pesticides. It's been more about worries over unwanted hitchhikers.

I'm glad I don't buy mail order, but even so, I'll now be holding new acquisitions for a minimum of a week, with several water changes, before they go in any tank. The last plants I got, some from members and some from Al's, are all going to stay in a bucket for another week, since now they've been mixed together, I have to wonder about cross contamination. If the plants from Al's are indeed contaminated, as it appears they may be, then whatever it is, it's in the water. So time and lots of water changes would seem to be our main defense against this kind of disaster.

It's a dangerous world we are living in.. chemical soup hardly describes it.


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## tonyyyz (Jan 31, 2013)

camboy012406 said:


> dont worry anna your not the only one experienced that. It happened to me also when I bought some new mosses from kims nature and didnt quarantine it. 6 of them died. Lesson learned also


When did you buy the moss from Kims? I ask because I've never had a problem just dumping any plants from Kims into my shrimp tank.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Sorry for your loss, Anna. That's why I would never never put any plants bought from stores in my shrimp tanks. Never.

Also, Kim's plants are probably better as they might have been in her store for weeks before you get it. The problem is almost always the ones that are newly imported.


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## RONY11 (Jan 6, 2011)

Dear Anna sad to hear abt.yr shrimp. I've experienced the same in the past when I was new in the hobby and made painful mistakes but since then I've learnt from my mistakes never ever added plants, moss, driftwood or anything new directly to my well established shrimp tanks.

I usually buy/sell/exchange plants n moss from/to/with hobbyists.
I have a high tech tank where moss and ferns grow like crazy along with other demanding plants due to high lights, CO2, ferts (lots of ferts) which has copper and substrate rich in iron and other minerals. 

Usually I know in advance when a buyer need the plants so I quarantine the plants or moss before they pass hands. I have a small separate quarantine tank. I do my best to sell clean plants and moss without any algae, snails, planaria or other critters.
If the buyer needs plants urgently he is well informed that the plants have grown in and absorbed certain ferts. If he plans to add it in a shrimps aquarium he should quarantine it well in advance. 

If the buyer specifically requests moss to add immediately to an active shrimp tank and if I can I sell moss from my shrimp tank which is safe, no harmful ferts.


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