# Starting a new aquarium naturally, no filter, no chemicals, etc.



## Questionz (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey guys, i'm new to the aquarium society and i'm very interested in having a quality aquarium in the near future, so please help me if what i think is right is actually wrong, or if im doing anything incorrect. thanks.

So right now i'm trying to think of a way to make a fish tank as natural as ever, without the need for filters, CO2, Nitrate or Phosphate additives. Everything is to be provided from fishes/shrimps/etc. From initial research, i didn't find anything on how CO2 is introduced to the system without additives/injections. I assume that it probably comes from some kind of critter, so i'm trying to research that. if anyone can give me a few pointers, that would greatly help. My first fish are going to be guppies. no other fish will be added until i think i have a solid understanding of the aquarium cycle. 

My goal is to use rain water as the source, and the sun as light rather than fluorescent lights. i don't know what is a good substrate (tiny rocks or pool sand).

For plants, i'm not sure what i should add. maybe dwarf plants would be good for the guppies, since they arn't too tall. i'm also unfamiliar as to how to plant them in the aquarium. i think i read that if its planted the rocks/sand, it could rot which is bad. do i juts leave it on top of the sand/rock bed? 
I read that fish waste, and fish CO2 are absorbed by the plants and such. I'm not sure how to naturally produce Nitrogen or Phosphate, but i think i read that shrimps can produce nitrogen.

i'd also like to add shrimps, but im not sure what kind of shimps are good. can anyone suggest a good website that describes what each plant/fish/shrimp does what? i tried to research, but many sites just describe what it looks like, not what its purpose is for (how to aid the aquarium). I guess this is more for those who are experienced with plants/fish/shrimps.

i'd also like to produce a controled amount of algea for the guppies/shrimp to feast on. 

i don't know what else i am missing, but if you think im in the wrong about how i should proceed, please advise. im sure people have made self-sustaining aquariums in the past.

i should also mention that right now i haven't thought about the size of the tank, just more or less what is in it. 

my first action will be to spend a week or so growing the water plants and making the aquarium (fishless) self-sustaining before adding live critters. what do you guys think?

thanks, and sorry for the format.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

You are beginning with a lot of serious misinformation and some seriously incorrect premises. Rain water is a poor choice for an aquarium. It is devoid of trace elements and minerals. It can be used to soften extremely hard water.
Plants grow in the substrate, if they root. Any living creature in the tank will produce CO2, as well as nitrogen. It would take a book to answer all these questions, and that is where you should start; with a basic aquarium book from the library. In fact read a couple; it will save a lot of time. Your present source(s) has not done the job.
There are many here that could help you, but with the way your questions are worded, makes anything short of a book, unlikely to answer fully. I don't mean to be abrupt about this, but a book would probably get you covered in the basics more quickly than questions and answers on here. I will say this, though and that is that what you are envisioning is practically impossible to accomplish in an aquarium. While all sorts of high tech equipment isn't necessary, filters are commonly used for a very good reason, and that is the the so called "balanced" aquarium is a concept that is virtually unattainable, particularly in an esthetically pleasing setup.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Unfortunately, the kind of closed system environment that you describe is very difficult (if not impossible) to emulate in practice. Nature has a very large "field" to work with, so you will not be able to recreate what you see in nature with (say) a 10 gallon, 100 gallon or even a 1000 gallon aquarium.

Filters are almost a necessity in today's aquariums; they help prolong the time in between water changes (which become necessary). It is not possible to "keep" the water for an indefinite amount of time; various chemicals as well as hormones that are released will accumulate in the water column.

Similarly, if keeping a planted aquarium, the absence of nitrogen or phosphorus will lead to algae. The same goes for CO2. Without a source of carbon, plants will not be able to grow. While it is true that some amount of nitrogen and CO2 can be provided for by living animals (fish, shrimp, snails, etc), the amount generated is often times insufficient (this is definitely more true in a highly lit aquarium), and as such, supplementary addition of nutrients and CO2 are required.

BillD has already mentioned using rain water as a water source. In addition, I would like to add that rain water from the GTA is likely polluted, and I would not trust it.

Regarding lighting, many people think natural sunlight is a good source of light, but it is often too strong, and too unpredictable. This leads to algae problems.

Some plants such as Java Fern and Anubias cannot be submerged into the substrate; if their rhizome is covered, they will die. Most other plants, however, do require a substrate to be planted in.

Regarding the nitrogen and other nutrients that are required by plants, I have already discussed this above.

In general, people keep shrimp for either a) aesthetic purposes, or b) to eliminate small amounts of algae. In addition, shrimp are often sensitive to waste build ups, and without a filter and regular water changes, they will be the first thing to die.

Finally, before you add any livestock to your aquarium, I would look up how to properly fishless cycle. A week will not be enough time for enough beneficial bacteria to establish themselves.


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

What will you use for water movement? even pond uses pump...a very large pond may utilize wind to create water movement


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

I read your other thread, and it sounds like you may want to try a bit of just having a regular old aquarium with plants, until you get a better understanding of aquatics and nutrients, etc. 

To answer all your questions would take a book, like BillD said. But you still can learn a TON from just combing through a lot of past and old forum threads that answer many of your individual questions.

The search function has got to be the most underrated part of any forum... 

In no way do we want to burst your bubble of enthusiasm, but until you are able to practically understand more of fishkeeping first-hand, you may end up doing a lot of work and getting nowhere and getting discouraged and giving up.


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## arc (Mar 11, 2010)

I guess I'll be the lone one saying that you can make a tank with no filter/lights and minimal water changes. Do a google search on *Diana Walstad* and start reading. With a few modifications you can set up a tank BUT and this is a pretty big "BUT", the end result is not going to look that great and will barely have any fish.

I've experimented with her method and have a modified version where there is no heat/filter/light. I change 20% tap water every 2-3 months. The tank is next to a large window and the temperature ranges from 32C(Summer) to 20C(Winter). The tank is heavily planted with moss, java fern and a few others. It has a large growing cherry shrimp colony(these shrimps are bullet proof), lots of pond/ramhorn/MTS snails, duckweed, and two White cloud minnows. Everything has been alive for about a year.

Issues:
-Plants only grow in the summer time. In winter, they all just survive.
-Severely limited stocks of fish and choices. White cloud minnows are cold water fish. Guppies could be ok but they breed a lot.
-No "wow" factor that other tanks have. It looks like a glass box with plants and water in it.
-If you pick the wrong substrate/soil, fixing any issues later on is going to be hard and may require a tear down.

Funny thing is for a low tech/maintenance tank, it's considered an advanced method because of the amount of research and patience's needed. It may not be worth the headaches but if you are hard set on it, reading Diana Walstad's book will help.

Good luck and welcome to the forums!


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## Questionz (Sep 13, 2010)

lol thanks all for your replies! i guess i should start with a book then. i just thought that if i start doing it, i can quickly pick up the necessities to make a good system. Just reading a book won't get me too far if i just take their information at face value; more or less i guess i need to read and do at the same time. I guess the filtration system may be the exception ill need to consider.



arc said:


> I guess I'll be the lone one saying that you can make a tank with no filter/lights and minimal water changes. Do a google search on *Diana Walstad* and start reading. With a few modifications you can set up a tank BUT and this is a pretty big "BUT", the end result is not going to look that great and will barely have any fish.
> 
> I've experimented with her method and have a modified version where there is no heat/filter/light. I change 20% tap water every 2-3 months. The tank is next to a large window and the temperature ranges from 32C(Summer) to 20C(Winter). The tank is heavily planted with moss, java fern and a few others. It has a large growing cherry shrimp colony(these shrimps are bullet proof), lots of pond/ramhorn/MTS snails, duckweed, and two White cloud minnows. Everything has been alive for about a year.
> 
> ...


sounds very interesting, this is relatively what i want to achieve, but i'm not sure why it looks like a glass box with plants and water? Not really sure how this normally compares with other aquariums (i guess other than rocks and other plants?)
you mentioned that its heavily planted.. is this because you let it grow for about a year? if i just put javamoss and one other plant, and let it grow, trimming it to a good size, the system won't be too heavily planted, and might look more aesthetic?


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

When it comes to aquascaping, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. My main planted tank would fit the description of box of water with plants and fish. It is more a nursery for plants than "planted tank". It isn't a thing of beuty. I harvested about a 100 Vals from it on Monday for sale because the tank was overgrown. There are also about 150 guppies in the tank. Filtration is minimal, and there is a thin layer of soil mixed in the bottom 1" of gravel. The tank has been going for about 3 years and continues to produce several types of plants. This tank gets few water changes. It is difficult to grow plants without control of the lighting. As well some plants will do much better than others. I have had great luck with the Vals, and in another tank am having fabulous luck with chain swords growing in plain gravel. Growing plants on the cheap with little effort is a challenge, although it is one worth doing. It is a constant experiment.


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## Questionz (Sep 13, 2010)

BillD said:


> When it comes to aquascaping, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. My main planted tank would fit the description of box of water with plants and fish. It is more a nursery for plants than "planted tank". It isn't a thing of beuty. I harvested about a 100 Vals from it on Monday for sale because the tank was overgrown. There are also about 150 guppies in the tank. Filtration is minimal, and there is a thin layer of soil mixed in the bottom 1" of gravel. The tank has been going for about 3 years and continues to produce several types of plants. This tank gets few water changes. It is difficult to grow plants without control of the lighting. As well some plants will do much better than others. I have had great luck with the Vals, and in another tank am having fabulous luck with chain swords growing in plain gravel. Growing plants on the cheap with little effort is a challenge, although it is one worth doing. It is a constant experiment.


haha definitely. Say, how would you normally harvest your plants? do you just put your hands in the water, or do you use some sort of glove? it just occured to me that if i wash my hands with tap water, i would have traces of chlorine on my arms, and if i put it in the tank, it would be bad.. for the fish and plants right?


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Can I ask you why you are attempting a "natural" setup? Not that there is anything wrong with it, I'm just curious that's all.

To answer your question on traces of chlorine on your hands/arms. I wouldn't worry about it. Such a small amount shouldn't harm anything. If you are worried, you can add a drop of prime or other type of water dechlorinator. 

Hell, I know people that don't even treat their water....that to me is pretty crazy.


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## Questionz (Sep 13, 2010)

gucci17 said:


> Can I ask you why you are attempting a "natural" setup? Not that there is anything wrong with it, I'm just curious that's all.
> 
> To answer your question on traces of chlorine on your hands/arms. I wouldn't worry about it. Such a small amount shouldn't harm anything. If you are worried, you can add a drop of prime or other type of water dechlorinator.
> 
> Hell, I know people that don't even treat their water....that to me is pretty crazy.


lol, to be honest, i've always liked trying to make things as self-sustaining as possible, even outside of the aquarium hobby. Since i like just watching fishes a lot, i thought it would be cool to have an ecosystem set up, kind of like a cycle of life in a tank kind of thing. obviously this is next to impossibility, but i'd like to try to make a natural environment as close as possible. It's not like im going to leave it unattended, but i would like to look at a self-sustaining tank and go "wow this is effing awesome, its like a circle of life in a fish tank" etc. its probably jumping the gun here, but one of my goals is to have (although it would probably cost a hell of a lot of money) a self-sustaining outside aquarium, kind of like a pond, with sand all around, etc, using live mosquitos/flies/bugs as food for the fishes, waterwheels to cycle water, water change through rain water, sun light, etc. you know? too imaginative i guess lol.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

You can have a nice planted aquarium with a minimum of inputs, a 'low tech' style.

For plants, a balance of light, mineral nutrients and CO2 is needed. Light is what drives the process. If you avoid intense light, the plants will get adequate nutrients from the fish and water changes, and CO2 from the air and breakdown of organic materials in the tank, so you don't need to fertilize or add CO2. One crude metric of lighting is watts per gallon for fluorescent lights. One to two watts per gallon will grow several kinds of plants.

As for chemicals, all you really need is something to remove chlorine and/or chloramine from your tap water. Most municipalities use chloramine these days which does not dissipate like chlorine if you let the water stand.

For equipment, you need a heater, although you don't really need to keep the temp above about 22C for most tropical fish. You also need something to circulate the water in the tank unless it's a very small tank. A lightly stocked planted tank will do well with a small Aquaclear or a sponge filter driven by an air pump.

One thing to bear in mind is that a larger tank is easier to manage than a smaller one -- it's more able to cope with your mistakes. I'd recommend that you start with a 15 to 20 gallon tank at the very least, and larger would be better. Start slowly, and be patient. Abrupt changes in water characteristics are very hard on aquatic organisms, and plants can take weeks to adapt to new conditions of lighting, etc. Plants often go through a process of replacing all of most of their leaves with new ones better suited to the new conditions which can very disheartening if you don't realize what's going on -- it just looks like the plants are dying, to the inexperienced eye.

As for your idea of a self-sustaining pond, that's no problem at all -- there are plenty of small bodies of water in nature that support an ecosystem that includes fish. Most of them are substantially larger than a backyard water feature and/or have water running through them. A climate where they don't freeze helps too.

A good beginner's book is The New Aquarium Handbook by Ines Scheurmann. She's written a good introductory book to aquarium plants as well. I second the recommendation of Diana Walstad's book. While it assumes you already have some experience with aquaria, there's nothing else out there that describes the biology and chemistry of an aquarium from a scientific rather than hand waving point of view.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Questionz said:


> one of my goals is to have (although it would probably cost a hell of a lot of money) a self-sustaining outside aquarium, kind of like a pond, with sand all around, etc, using live mosquitos/flies/bugs as food for the fishes, waterwheels to cycle water, water change through rain water, sun light, etc. you know? too imaginative i guess lol.


If you live in Toronto, one of the major problems would be keeping your critters alive during the winter months. Also, I don't think breeding mosquitoes and flies is such a good idea...

The other problem with ponds is that you really can't see much of your fish. Ponds are great landscaping elements, but not as interesting as an aquarium if you want to look at your fish and shrimps...


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## arc (Mar 11, 2010)

> sounds very interesting, this is relatively what i want to achieve, but i'm not sure why it looks like a glass box with plants and water? Not really sure how this normally compares with other aquariums (i guess other than rocks and other plants?)
> you mentioned that its heavily planted.. is this because you let it grow for about a year? if i just put javamoss and one other plant, and let it grow, trimming it to a good size, the system won't be too heavily planted, and might look more aesthetic?


Because the tank lacks a man made filter I use the plants as a natural filter. That and I don't have any use for the extra plants so I just keep it there and over time it just becomes heavily planted.

Regarding the glass box with plants and water comment, BillD is right about it being about individual tastes. There's no water movement so everything is mostly static and only two fish move around.

I imagine BillD's tank should look a lot better with that many guppies in it.


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## pat3612 (Jan 29, 2008)

Last year I was pretty sick and had to get rid of alot of fish. I kept a few tanks running one of which is a shrimp tank with just moss. I have low lights on it and a airstone. I never changed the water in over a year just got hubby to top it off its still running moss dies then grows back it has some algea but I have not loss one shrimp in that tank.


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

Anyone wishing to attempt this sort of aquarium absolutely MUST read Walstad's book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_. It's available on Amazon.

In fact I would recommend that book to anyone who's thinking of putting plants in an aquarium under any setup. Just to give themselves a general education on what's happening inside their aquarium. It really is packed with great information.

Personally I got my start with aquariums by reading the Baensch Aquarium Atlas, Volume 1.

Great book, and still comes in handy for all its fish profiles and information on diseases and diagnosis.

The actual ecology of your average aquarium is really no different than a self-sustaining aquarium. All we do is optimize the conditions.

In some cases, we're actually able to keep our specimens in more optimal conditions where they live longer and grow healthier than they do in nature.

Can you keep an aquarium without all this? Absolutely. And especially if you're willing to use lights instead of just sunlight, there's absolutely no reason it can't be a nice centerpiece to your living room. It will just require an awful lot of research and acquired knowledge before even starting to plan it, and a moderate dose of experience to achieve.

But even once you've achieved this, I think you'd slowly start to realize that something like CO2 injection really takes next to no effort on your part, and would have such a significant impact on the growth of your plants and the appearance of your aquarium, that there's really no reason not to add it... Then you'll slowly start to discover what could be accomplished just by pushing in a few root tabs every 4 months. Then you'll realize how many fish you could keep if you just stuck a $40 HOB filter on the tank... And before you know it you'll have exactly the kind of tank you're avoiding, simply because for virtually no added effort, and very little additional maintenace, your tank will look a thousand times better.

Mind you, all this good stuff costs money. So your experience may vary depending on your disposable income and just how badly you want this


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## mauve (Apr 12, 2010)

This is my 70g. NTP tank.
It is extremely low tech/maintenance.
Soil topped with pool filter sand.
I don't use filter or add CO2.
The tanks receives sunlight + I supplement with some fluorescents. 
I add/change 15-20% of water every 2 weeks (some times even a month).
The less I interfere with it, the better balance is achieved.
My neons spawn regularly (no fry though), I have shrimp and all kinds of creatures which somehow made their way into the tank.
They all are part of the system.
There are around 16 species of plants.
It looks like a jungle and that's the way I like it.


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## mauve (Apr 12, 2010)

I also have 5g tank that sits right on a window sill, lots of light.
That one receives even less attention, and it looks amazing.
At first there was some balance turmoil, but I just left it alone and let it "heal". The green water completely cleared and never came back. 
Once I made a mistake of introducing assassin snails into it and the result was an infestation of Cyanobacteria. To deal with it I threw out the assassins and reintroduced the snails. That was end of cyanobacteria.


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Nice natural tank mauve.

I'm sure you could have offered up those assassin snails free to people  rather than throwing them out.


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## mauve (Apr 12, 2010)

Ha ha, I threw them in another tank where they starved to death.
No more of those predators. Snails are amazing at keeping aquarium clean and
balanced.


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## Unnr (May 8, 2010)

One of my tanks is fairly "natural." It has a filter, but it's a bit choked up 

Anyway, it's low-light, but lit, has a soil substrate (with gravel), and all that stuff. I used Diana Wolfsted's book to get started, but mostly went with my gut. It's been running well, but it's pretty finicky. Problems come and go, usually aesthetic ones, but before the shrimp were in there weren't enough critters,and noone was eating the algae. I had to scrape it off twice. Water changes circa once a month -- when so much water has evaporated the water splashing out of the filter gets too noisy ;P usually I take out 10%-15% and replace 20-30%. I don't see problem chemicals ever, but probably becasue I'm effectively controling the ones I test for... what I don't test for is probably doing all kinds of wacky things.

It is heated, because it has Cardinal tetras, andthey like it warm. The shrimp probalby don't like the temperature.

It's my first tank, and it's only been up and running for half a year (though it was moved houses, and from a 10 gal to a 30 gal about 2 mos in, so 4 mos might be more accurate) -- it is doable to use relatively low tech stuff, but no-tech might limit you more than you're willing to be limited (eg, no tropical fish, and it's kinda hard to get a lot of local ones). You have to be really patient, and pay close attention to things. And you have to be willing to throw out some of the usual advice. forEg, I have to "overfeed" or the shrimp vs tetra populations get out of hand. The tetras go after the shrimp more if I don't feed a bit more than "suggested" In the end, the tetras don't actually overeat, and although the food stays in longer than would be considered normal, it doesnt' seem to cause water quality issues (maybe because it's a constant). The first batch of shrimp did not do well, about half died w/in a day of arrival, and the rest slowly went for unknown reasons. The second batch of shrimp is doing fine, and breeding regularly, though I've lost two (of 8founders and the survivors of at least 5 pregnancies) to causes other than being eaten, the tetras eat the baby shrimp, which was part of the plan, so far the pop is almost stable, with three known babies reaching maturity in the tank. Orriginally I though no babies would survive in teh tank, but htey do.

Not sure if it's really harder to do, or just harder to get enough info about. Some of the stuff in the DW book is...not sensical.... which is why I went with logic over authority for my tank. 

YMMV.


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## mauve (Apr 12, 2010)

Interesting. The temperature in my tanks is almost below 20. And my tetras are doing super fine and even spawn. I guess they are accustomed to Canadian climate 
There are always problems in the beginning, it takes some time for a bio-system to balance itself. A lot of people want it, like, right NOW. But it never works that way with the real natural system. Often it does not want to go and look the way you want it. But that's what I personally like about the process of setting up a new aquarium: to see what will survive and what it is going to evolve into. And given a chance nature will always create something amazing. 
I've had a 5g tank on a windowsill for almost a year now with a few hours of direct sunlight. At first things went haywire, water went impenetrable green ,
but I just let it take care of itself, and sure enough everything cleared after a few weeks.
I made a mistake of removing the snails (which I'll never do again) and result was an infection of Cyanobacteria. Reintroduced snails cleaned it all up in 2 weeks.
Here is that tank. I have not put much attention into composing hard scape...


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## Unnr (May 8, 2010)

That could be... I found mine seemed noticably happier in the summer when the water temp was above what the heater aimed for. So I raised the temp.

I'm not actively going for no-tech, so I didn't really think twice about that one. <shrug> I guess there's a ballance between ideals and optimal conditions for a certain fish.... If /i were going for no-tech, I'd pick fish that liked 19-21degrees.

What I WAS going for was a working biosystem (want to be able to chat to my kid about it when he's older, figured I needed a while to get it there ), so slightly different focuses qwrbkp[;;/;;; 
-Unnr 4xdsrxxdtfdee


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## Unnr (May 8, 2010)

The kid added2 his 2 cents there...


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