# What does Phosban do?



## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

I heard it can remove algae, but can it remove algae in freshwater too?


----------



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Phosban is a phosphate adsorbent (arsenic adsorption was it's primary use in wastewater treatment). It won't remove algae per se but more so on the lines of reducing it's growth rate by limiting a macro nutrient.

HTH


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Iron Oxide can remove po4 and SI in freshwater as well.

GFO removes po4

po4 is fuel for algea.

but in freshwater cases, if your tank is matured, most of the times PH is kept constant by the po4 and bonded po4 in tank, so removing those can have a severe effect on overall PH. although most freshwater fish, except rays and arows dont mind that.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

pH is kept stable in an aquarium by the carbonate hardness (kH), not the P04 content. This has more to do with the carbonate and bicarbonate ions (and hence buffering capacity) in the water.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Chris S said:


> pH is kept stable in an aquarium by the carbonate hardness (kH), not the P04 content. This has more to do with the carbonate and bicarbonate ions (and hence buffering capacity) in the water.


Chris, there is phosphate-Buffered water, as phosphate is an Ion itself, and there is Carbonate-Buffered water. hence why I said in a matured tank sometimes PH is buffered by po4 ions.

please do some research before calling my 20+ years of experience with keeping and breeding some of the rarest Freshwater creatures wrong. you following me around is welcome though, as others will learn from your mistakes 

do some research on po4 buffered fresh waters, it is widely used for creatures which prefer a lower PH values (6-6.5) like rays. which are not recommended for beginners. think products like "PH-down" read whats in it


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

pH down neutralizes carbonate hardness - not sure what that has to do with po4 buffered water (I'm assuming you are talking about the API brand, no?).


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Chris S said:


> pH down neutralizes carbonate hardness - not sure what that has to do with po4 buffered water (I'm assuming you are talking about the API brand, no?).


it works based on introduction of po4 ions and phosphoric acids. its a well known fact amoung ray keepers around the world. so no point arguing about it, but in general, when I see someone referring to something I havent heard before, I ask questions about it, or research on it, before saying that's wrong 

after all, isnt that the point of these threads/forums ?


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

My scientific knowledge of the use of phosphates is limited at best, but to my knowledge, and experience, kH plays the pivotal role in aquaria pH stability - the ability to buffer against swings in pH by binding with anything acidic.

This doesn't mean other anions like silicates or phosphates don't contribute to alkalinity, but I think it is generally accepted that (bi)/carbonates provide the majority of buffering in the home aquaria.

I don't think removing p04 will contribute to any large pH swings in an aquarium.

Maybe someone else can step in and explain more, as if you are looking for a scientific debate where I have to quote sources and provide my own source material research - I'm not going to live up to your expectations.


----------



## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Big Ray, PO4 buffering in solutions is more relevant in things like buffer solutions for cells and animals; I don't think it has much bearing in the regulation of pH/KH in the home aquaria, evidenced by the fact that reef keepers regularly go for 0 ppm PO4, and planted tank enthusiasts have to add in more and more PO4 to keep things going.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

okay let me clear it more again  [This is about Freshwater, not reef nor marine]

as I said in couple posts up, :
"there is phosphate-Buffered water, as phosphate is an Ion itself, and there is Carbonate-Buffered water."

now I have to agree average home aquarium has no need to keep the PH at 6.0 hence most of the systems are buffered using the bicarbonates in water. KH.

I have been breeding rays for years, and for doing that, you need a solid 6.0 PH, with almost no swings, and its really though, and unstable to buffer PH of 6.0 with carbonates, so we use po4 Ions, and phosphoric acids, to buffer the PH. along with drift wood, which can hold the po4 Ions to keep the PH more stable. as we know Toronto water is PH 8.0, so at water changes, phosphoric acid is needed to lower it. in THIS system, that the PH is regulated at 6.0 using po4 Ions, removal of po4 ions will cause a PH overshoot, and death of animals, as the bacteria will be shocked, and ammonium (ammonia at low PH) will turn into ammonia, and kill the ray as the chocked bacteria dont have time to adapt.

if this is not the case with your freshwater tank, then po4 removal is safe,

Reefs are a different story, we want high PH of 8.3 buffered with KH (and NA CL). and no po4. I was just talking about freshwater here, as the thread starter asked.

so sorry if there was a misunderstanding, looking back I see I used the word "most" for freshwater tanks buffered using po4, which is not true, I was thinking about my case with freshwater tanks . I truly have never kept a planted tank  so cant comment on that.


----------



## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

+1
I was going to add my thoughts but Big Ray does know what he is talking about . What he talks about is widely discussed on other forms.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I think I sort of understand what you are saying now Ray.

From my knowledge of how phosphoric acid based products work (like API pH down), to get a lower pH (and keep it there) it will remove alkalinity to allow for a slightly lower pH and help keep it there (or buffer it). So yes, absolutely, products that use phosphoric acid will lower the pH and buffer it at that lower pH. The removal of phosphate _if_ using something like pH down could cause an upward swing of pH.

Without the use of RO though, these products are just a waste of money (in my opinion!). Water changes will swing the pH back up, as will a lack of them.

I've been able to keep a stable pH of around 6 in most of my breeder tanks with nothing more than RO + Peat (and some almond leaves as well). For lower than that, some chemicals were needed, like hydrochloric acid, but a stable pH of of less than 5 still isn't impossible to obtain without having to buy overpriced aquarium pH modifiers.

Anyway, at least the thread here is now free of misinformation. My job here is done!


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

no comment, I posted how it works, ppl can always disagree to science ...


I gave you the name PH down so you could type it in google and see what I'm talking about, I dont think I have ever bought any chemicals from freshwater tanks, even dichloride I make it myself with a chemist.

anyways, no point discussing this if we are basing it on a none PhD persons knowledge which can lack alot. been an engineer for a while and I am used to ppl not wanting to expand their knowledge.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Actually, in speaking with Wilson today I did post something incorrect:

Most pH down products will do one of two things, not both:

1. Lower your kH (removal of carbonates/bicarbonates)
2. Add acids (phosphoric acid for example) and buffering (often phosphate based).

It is actually a fairly interesting topic of conversation - phosphate buffering/carbonate buffering. It would be a good thread to have a discussion on - especially how each works (which is fairly in-depth and will admit is beyond my background in chemistry).

I'm actually disappointed that some of the other more experienced and knowledgeable members here haven't chimed in - as my background is quite limited. Everything I know is as it has applied to the home aquaria and my experiences here.

I have to say something, however (and I apologize for going off topic), because in dealing with you (Big Ray), you are probably one of the most ignorant, stuck-up and arrogant members here that I have ever dealt with. Every post you make, especially if someone posts information to the contrary, is laden with snark remarks and personal attacks, not to mention a boasting of your apparent intelligence and knowledge.

If I post something that is wrong, I admit I am wrong and typically try to have an educational discussion about it. You, however, will never admit you are wrong or that perhaps there are limitations to your knowledge. You previously mentioned that I was following your posts around, and you are partially right. If there is one thing I can't stand on these forums it is when misinformation (or outright wrong information) is posted and not contested - which seems to be a common theme for your posts. My interpretation of you is that you know just enough to make yourself dangerous and that scares me because I think a lot of people on this forum will not confront your posts as it more often than not leads to personal attacks and confrontation.

But, who am I to tell you that you are wrong, or to fill in missing blanks of your posts? Well, I don't have a pHD, nor a background in chemistry or even science for that matter. My life took another route and as such, I have done other things in my life such as serving the CAF that have made me who I am today. As for my knowledge as pertaining to this hobby, it has been something I have loved since a child. What I know is based almost solely on practical experience. I have a lot to learn, especially when it comes down to things like chemistry, but you know what? I embrace that and I love that because if I had nothing to learn, I wouldn't find the hobby as engrossing as I do.

The sad thing is that if your personality wasn't so confrontational (maybe you have low self-esteem?) you would be a great asset to these forums. You have the ability to spark some interesting conversation - it is just the manner in which you do it that I can't stand. I think maybe you have spent too much of your life becoming and engineer and getting your pHD that you have never really matured socially. Or maybe you just think that everyone on these forums is an idiot compared to yourself. 

Suffice to say, I won't put you on ignore (against my better judgement) because I just can't tolerate the utter crap that you sometimes post here. So, you should probably get writing your next post to me chalk full of thinly veiled insults. Oh, and don't forgot to let everyone know how smart you are, because heaven forbid you do that by having intelligent, constructive conversation.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

HAHAHAHAHAHA LOLOL

well I see you took it all personally, but I have to say,

you kept saying "to my knowledge" well you dont have a PhD, and your knowledge is not complete  just like we saw here ! you didnt know about po4 buffering and decided to call me wrong before finding out what its all about !!! (but Im glad that now you know what it is )

you are welcome to call me names  its the net, In fact it gave me a bit of laugh at work  and its friday night so ... but you are calling me ignorant, while I tried to inform you / teach you about po4 buffering which you did not know about and now do ! so I think of myself as a good person, who helped you learn a new thing  if anyone is ignorant, its you buddy for not giving my word 0.0000000001% chance of being true  and out of your knowledge

if you do see any other WRONG info I have posted, Id love it if you could point them out and we could have a Friendly discussion about it  I love teaching ppl and sharing info. cause I learn more from that as well.

and lastly, I apologize if I had a bit of sarcasm in my posts, but po4 buffering is well known, and it was quite funny how you kept NOT researching about it and kept TRYING to prove me wrong lol what do we call a person like that ? a person who is not willing to look outside the box and accept there might be a chance of him/her being wrong ? my English is not that good to have a word for that, but you are good at name calling, help me fill it in ? 

"*I just can't tolerate the utter crap that you sometimes post here.*" please refer to one thing I have posted which was wrong  according to your knowledge, before this post, po4 buffering was one ehh ?

*"Oh, and don't forgot to let everyone know how smart you are,"*
I am not here to act or look smart, and in fact I havent met anyone from here ever ! I am sharing info ! just like ppl on here shared their info with me. I think its friday evening and you need a nap 

*"I have a lot to learn, especially when it comes down to things like chemistry, but you know what? I embrace that and I love that because if I had nothing to learn, I wouldn't find the hobby as engrossing as I do."*
good  I tried to teach u about po4 buffering. took a bit of drama, but we did it  I am here to learn as well.

*"that perhaps there are limitations to your knowledge."* if you post something I havent heard about, Id ask you about it, or research on it, before calling you wrong.

*". You previously mentioned that I was following your posts around, and you are partially right. If there is one thing I can't stand on these forums it is when misinformation (or outright wrong information) is posted and not contested - which seems to be a common theme for your posts. "* wanna give me an example ? po4 buffering ?

something to consider here is that I didnt want your wrong info regarding "carbonate being the only buffer in water" and "po4 having no buffering abilities" being left here, so I corrected you  you should tank me  hahha [joke, no thank you needed]

*"The sad thing is that if your personality wasn't so confrontational (maybe you have low self-esteem?) you would be a great asset to these forums."*
so I posted truth, and you said its wrong and now I have low self steem ? I See 

anyways, have a good weekend  I am glad you learned something at the end. I hope we can keep it friendly Chris ! there is nothing wrong with learning new stuff ! you not knowing about po4 buffering does not make you dumb, and me knowing about it does not make me smart ! you need to calm yourself down, and understand this is a hobby.


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Chris, just before I leave for the day, I Wanted to conclude this about your attitude by bringing here one of your posts on the carbon thread :

*"Just basing my suggestion on experience.

I see no difference, really, in coral growth or fish health in established, healthy tanks with the use of carbon.

I've seen carbon be very effective with the removal of unwanted medication and for the removal of gelbstoff or tannins (to remove discoloration).

Water changes are, however, the miracle cure for all things in the aquaria! These harmful toxins and organics I don't think are quite as harmful as you may think - in fact, I think many of them help make up a healthy eco-system when combined with regular water changes. Exceptions apply, as always, but in general I think carbon is best used on an as needed basis.
Chris S is online now Add to Chris S's Reputation Report Post Reply With Quote"*

you see no difference ? is it possible that the reef system you ar testing this on is NOT the best one around ? is it possible the chemists who say carbon does remove bad stuff did some reasearch and have more knowledge than you do ? maybe right ? who's ignorant ?

Water changes are miracle of all aquaria ? do a 100% water change in a SPS tank and we will talk more after  lol

and my fav. : *"These harmful toxins and organics I don't think are quite as harmful as you may think -"* so HARMFUL toxics in your opinion are not HARMFUL ? the toxics that soft corals give off to kill neighbouring corals for cometetition in space ? those arent harmfull ? they are if you were a coral buddy  and you go on abut how these TOXICs can be beneficial to the eco system ? wow my friend !!! and you call me ignorant >?!

have a good weekend chris  unless based on your knowledge it is not the weekend  haha
(sorry had to)


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

The whole purpose of me posting on this thread was to refute this point:



Big Ray said:


> but in freshwater cases, if your tank is matured, most of the times PH is kept constant by the po4 and bonded po4 in tank, so removing those can have a severe effect on overall PH.


This point is absolutely false. The only time a tank becomes phosphate buffered is when the aquarist introduces the chemicals to do that. As far as I know, there are no natural bodies of water that are fully buffered by phosphates. To tell someone that they can't remove the phosphates from their water because it will cause their pH to swing is incorrect. If you had mentioned that it would work for their purposes but to be careful if you maintain a low-pH, phosphate buffered aquarium - then yes, I probably would not have said anything and in general agreed.. But you didn't. You make a claim that removing phosphates from a "mature" tank will cause the pH to swing. It won't do that. Maybe this is semantics, but I don't think so.

As for teaching me all about phosphate buffering, nowhere do I dispute the fact that phosphate buffering exists. I never said it doesn't work, nor that it isn't used. It would be like me telling you that many aquariums use fungi to carry out the nitrogen cycle. You would, of course, tell me I am wrong. If I then respond with, "oh, but I meant to say that many <5 pH tanks use fungi to carry out the nitrogen cycle" does that now make my first statement correct? No. If you hadn't disputed it, it very well might sit on the forum for all to see. Is that appropriate information for newcomers to read and take in? No, but when put in context by your response and the subsequent discussion, it would be. This thread didn't work out like that though, instead you threw insults my way and got me on the defensive.

As for me taking it personally - I do take it personally when you try to degrade me by implying my lack of a PhD makes my opinions, experiences and knowledge inconsequential.

As for my posts on the carbon thread, if you want to discuss them, post them there. I won't clutter up bigfishy's thread with any more irrelevant discussion.


----------

