# New substrate: Nitrastrate



## dchow

http://www.maglifeusa.com/ It's listed under products.

So far, I've only seen it available at Big Al's. Both online and Scarborough. It's definitely new and shiny. I was just curious if anyone has purchased/tried any and could give me some feedback.

I'm considering it for a guppy fry tank substrate as I have adequate biological filtration up until the nitrate point. Thirty dollars seemed like a bit much to drop on a product I've never tried and is new to the market.

Any feedback would be appreciated.


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## Darkblade48

I am instantly suspicious of a product that seems too good to be true.


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## Calmer

But what if?
It would be nice if it was true. 
Anyways here are some videos of other products.


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## Cory

Oh man, someone has to try it. Maybe I will. I'd be very surprised if it worked but if it does it'd be awesome!


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## KhuliLoachFan

It sounds like Too Good To Be True.

It should be easy to do a humane test. My pleco poops enough to collect a gram of poop a day, pretty much in solid strings. That's enough to test. Three buckets or small aquariums, one with brand new unseasoned gravel, one with seasoned gravel full of mulm, and one with this new substrate. Full with toronto tap water treated with dechlorinator, or DI water if you want to simplify the matrix and reduce the buffering effects of toronto water.

Now mix up fish poop and water, and measure equal amounts each day into the things. Watch pH, nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia levels. 

What I don't believe is the claim that something can contain anaerobic bacteria that denitrify the tank (no nitrate buildup) and release only nitrogen gas which should outgas from the aquarium. More to the point, I don't believe these nearly-neutrally boyant things can avoid the problem of either being coated with so much slime that their functionality is reduced to zero, or somehow rendered inert in the water due to the buildup of some substance inside or outside the shells of these globules.

Secondly, even if a preliminary test shows these things are effective at keeping nitrate levels low, what leeches out of these jelly-like globules, over time into your tank?



W


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## Cory

If you read the claim it gets more effective at storing pollutants with time but what I'm wondering is what happens to all of the physical waste? If somehow this stuff worked to keep the water clean you'd still have a massive buildup of waste before it decomposed.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Total dissolved solids would increase over time, even if they "break down", the water doesn't get more pure, just more full of more dissolved solids.

Are they claiming that there is some kind of process in their substrate that actually absorbs and traps those dissolved solids, and can break them all in to harmless gases? The most interesting thing they claimed that I could see was this claim that Nitrates are just "gone", transformed into nitrogen gas and oxygen. 

I see their sample tanks running without a conventional filter, using only their magic substrate, and a little mag-drive power-head unit.

W


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## Zebrapl3co

Man, you guys, know your water and what your tank does. All that yapping from the site basically tells you exactly what is happenning within your tank right now except it's in fansy words. Re-read it again, it promise you nothing that you aren't running right now.
- they cheated, the 3rd cycle doesn't end at nitrite. We all know that, there is still the nitrite-nitrate stage, but they just say, "our 4th stage converts it to nitrogen gas", translation: nitrogen gas that gets absorb by water = nitrate. 5th stage, "our filters oxygenate the water", wow, like I think most HOB and sponge filters does that too. What a co-incident.
Notice that their substrate follow the 2" rules? Hey, is this another co-incident too? My substrate follows the 2" rules too!
The only thing I'll give them is that they use a nice oval shap substrate. It's also a very convient size that allow particle to fall through and water to pass through easily. This does help maximize the efficiency of the substrate filtering. If anything, they might have the small posibility of being better than a plastic bio-ball. Just have pretty colours.
Meh, "clown puke" comes to mind for some reason.

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## KhuliLoachFan

What they claim, which is novel, and which they claim a patent for, is the release of (N2) Nitrogen gas, and the packaging of anaerobic bacteria cultures in a in a way you can safely and effectively use in a home aquarium:

".. Allows nitrate laden water to slowly saturate the nitrastrate particles.
the anaerobic bacteria within the bead consume the nitrates to create
compounds, which when they emerge, oxidize, releasing harmles nitrogen gas".

Now I want to know, what is the latin name of the anaerobic bacteria that they use, that can break nitrates into molecular nitrogen gas? (Correction: There are two, see below.)

NO3 is already oxydized and will not further react with oxygen, so there must be a complex chain reaction going on that in the end releases nitrogen gas (N2).. 

Nitrosomonas bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite and Nitrobacter bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. As I read how commercial water treatment nitrate technology works, I believe that these people really have found a way to take large-scale anaerobic bacteria, trap them inside these globules, which are technically there to keep the oxygen out, because these anaerobic bacteria cannot function in the presence of dissolved oxygen in the water. So they are using a gel media, to allow slow adsorbtion, reaction, and release of public and commercial systems actually reverse the Nitrate conversion, back to Nitrite. The gel beads must be an effective media for the bacteria that reconvert the nitrate to the more harmful nitrites (safely inside the gel beads, though) and the newly formed nitrite directly and anaerobically to N2. 

Mostly us aquarists are used to considering "anaerobic" zones in our substrate that usually contain something harmful that hurts our fish. Reconversion of nitrate to nitrate, in the water column would be a BAD THING. But, I wonder, though, if some kind of box-filter-sandwich thing or UnderGravel techn could be produced to hold these anaerobic bacteria, and create a denitrification system within a sort of nouveau-under-gravel-filter without using these colorful blobby things. For some people, if these blobbies work, a whole refugium of these things, might be a great idea for those who cannot remove nitrates using plants, such as those of us using a brackish tank. (I can't seem to keep any brackish plants alive.)

Anyways, first I'm gonna get me some of these and try them.


W


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## Hitch

I really wish marketing goods like this requires a peer review process like that of scientific papers.....

sound very bull to me...and like what zebrapl3co said, nothing your current tank/filter isnt already doing.


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## KhuliLoachFan

It should cost $10 to buy a little pack of it, and try it out. If it doesn't lower the nitrates, it should be possible to show this with a very small amount of labor. Two buckets. Known initial nitrate concentration. Let it run for two weeks, one bucket with an airstone, and the other with an airstone and nitrastrate.

W


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## bae

This trick of converting nitrate to nitrogen gas is used, IIRC, in the deep substrate technique in reef aquaria and in the deep innards of chunks of live rock. There are bacteria which will reduce nitrate all the way back through to nitrogen gas. This takes energy and an anaerobic environment. So the concept is okay, but how effective is this product? Good question. Note that it doesn't do anything about phosphate, dissolved organics or other waste materials. How fast can it remove how much nitrate? Anaerobic processes tend to be slow and not very efficient, and the nitrate has to diffuse into something that's designed not to let oxygen diffuse into it. You have to do water changes anyway to get rid of other stuff, so what's the real benefit? How long do these blobs remain effective before they clog up or run out of nutrients?

My take is that the theory sounds good, but the practice is a gimmick.


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## Darkblade48

bae said:


> This trick of converting nitrate to nitrogen gas is used, IIRC, in the deep substrate technique in reef aquaria and in the deep innards of chunks of live rock. There are bacteria which will reduce nitrate all the way back through to nitrogen gas. This takes energy and an anaerobic environment.


A little off topic, but yes, reef aquarists used to use a plenum that did exactly this.


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## gucci17

lol funny stuff...I may have been interested if I liked colourful substrate....but I don't...


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## KhuliLoachFan

I'm thinking that three cups of this in a mesh bag on top of the sponge in my AC110 HOB filter would be worth trying, if it really does work.


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## Zebrapl3co

KulliLoachFan, you might want to try that with normal gravels and bio-media rings to compare the difference.
While it's true that salties have been using a similar concept (plenum), I don't think I know of one that is inexpensive and very effective.
The concept of growing nitrate eating bacteria have been out there for a while now. Unfortunately, the nitrate eating bacteria only grown under a very low oxygen environment. One that is hard to create and intergrate into our aquarium. I know that there are numerous experiments done, most revolve around using thick layers of sand to kill off oxygen and grow the nitrate eating bacteria. However, the return rate is so low that a simple refugium + macroalgae can do a better job (That was the last I heard of a few years ago).
Again, this substrate play with this concept as well. But can it really do the trick? I have doubts. 
Remember, we all have nitrate eating bacteria in our filters too. It's just that they are not at a number where they can actually make a difference in our tanks.

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## igor.kanshyn

I was just reading about that substrate.

The interesting thing that it's porous. At least, it's written on their web-page. But I'm not sure that it's true 

*Does anyone use this substrate?*
Does it look like glass balls or it's really porous?


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## BillD

Darkblade48 said:


> A little off topic, but yes, reef aquarists used to use a plenum that did exactly this.


A plenum works in fresh water also. A plenum, equivalent to 2 thicknesses of eggcrate, will work beneath 2" of 1/8" gravel. There was a startup a number of years ago that was bringing just such a product to market a number of years ago. We had a speaker that came and demomstrated the product and explained how it works. Basically, from what he said, the plenum was not an anaerobic area, but rather an anoxic (low oxygen) area, and water would move through the gravel to find it's equilibrium. The anaerobic bacteria in the plenum would break down the nitrate, releasing nitrogen gas. It wasn't really any different a process than what is being claimed by this new product.
I think it failed to come to market because retailers weren't willing to take the risk. The gravel needed to be a certain grain size and the kept at a certain depth range, so they were offering a plenum made of two layers of eggcrate wrapped in window screen, and the gravel (quartz) of the correct size. I think there was a certain amount of skepticism, and the cost was a little high. The first thing I thought of was that I could use a UGF plate to do the same job, and have considered trying it but I don't normally test for nitrate and I believe that water needs to be changed for other reasons besides nitrate removal.


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## BillD

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I'm thinking that three cups of this in a mesh bag on top of the sponge in my AC110 HOB filter would be worth trying, if it really does work.


Probably wouldn't work in a filter. If it did they would market it as such and not as a substrate. I wouldn't want a tank that had the appearance that stuff would provide.


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## solarz

It seems to me that this "Nitrastrate" functions like a multitude of tiny live rocks. The question then is, at such a small size, is it enough to provide an anaerobic environment for nitrification?


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## J-P

just reading the description online at Big Al's:



> The perfect solution for Betta and Goldfish bowls!


 

that is nuts!! I am not saying it isn't a nitrate removal system, but it does propagate improper fish keeping practices.


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## qwerty

Encyclopedia of Aquiarium Plants by Peter Hiscock briefly discusses a method of doing this under the column labeled "anaerobic bacteria" on page 30.

This is not a new concept.

And so far it has not proved practical or useful enough to be widely implemented intentionally.


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## Tearran

Say it does work, even just a little. Wouldn't it be usefull as say additional filter media?


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## KhuliLoachFan

Less useful than activated carbon, and more expensive.

W


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## dchow

Out of pure curiosity, has anyone actually tested the stuff?


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## KhuliLoachFan

What prevented me from buying some to test is that they make no verifiable claim. ( 100 mL of Nitrastrate, in 500 mL of water, for 1 hour will reduce nitrates from 8 ppm to 4 ppm, for example, would be a verifiable (falsifiable) claim. ) They make no claims which could be tested. Since they assume you would use this in a fish tank where fish are living, all bets are off. Maybe it really DOES work, and your fish would be in EVEN HIGHER levels of nitrates if it wasn't for these beads.... So I smell... something fishy.

W


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