# Upgrading from 90G to 180G (early planning stage)



## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

Hello guys.

Great news - I got approval from my wife to upgrade my current tank to something bigger (on the condition we upgrade the family room where the tank is currently sitting). 

We have a fireplace in the middle of the room, with the TV on one side and tank on the other. She wants to build a wall entertainment unit with shelves and everything around the TV and also wants to frame entire wall where the tank is (basically everything would be covered and you would only see the tank) in a framing enclosure just so that everything matches on both sides.

I have the following equipment for my 90G:
1. 30G sump
2. 2 heaters (100w+300w)
3. Blueline 55 return pump
4. Vertex in-180 skimmer
5. 2 tunze 6045 powerheads

So my questions are:
1. What would I need to upgrade/add for the bigger tank?
2. Do I need to be concerned if the new tank will be enclosed (evaporation)? My sump sits in the basement so currently majority of evaporation occurs there.

Thanks for reading.


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## explor3r (Mar 14, 2010)

goldfish said:


> Hello guys.
> 
> Great news - I got approval from my wife to upgrade my current tank to something bigger (on the condition we upgrade the family room where the tank is currently sitting).
> 
> ...


Well first congratulations on the upgrade thats awesome!!!! then I have to say that you should be concern about the evaporation and getting mould in the walls and for that you will need to use some barrier to prevent it, a humidifier would be perfect, maybe some special grade paint or Im sure in Home depot they sell this material that you put on the shower walls before you place the tiles, a vented door because you want air to circulate in that room.
Regarding to the equipment I think the skimmer would be ok but if you can I would upgrade it and the 90 gallon you have now you can convert it into a sump.
What dimensions are you thinking about?..what lighting to do have in mind?


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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

You should mind the weight of the tank. It is going to be way over 1 ton!
Add more support in the basement-extra 2x4 or 4x4 even better.

Good luck
Paul


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

explor3r said:


> ......
> Regarding the equipment I think the skimmer would be ok but if you can I would upgrade it and the 90 gallon you have now you can convert it into a sump.
> What dimensions are you thinking about?..what lighting to do have in mind?


Hey Alex.

Definitely a 6ft, 2ft deep and 22" high.....still thinking about it. I'm gonna get a quote from Nate for the tank build but the stuff you told me about evaporation concerns me. Are you saying because the tank will be enclosed, therefore more risk to get mould on the wall?

Once finalized, I will PM you with more details.

90G for a sump? 

I got a really nice one already built by Nate. 

For lights, I know staying with T5s will really be expensive for a 6ft tank so I'm leaning towards LEDs....any recommendations?


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

Sounds Awesome ! To be sure i Understand...

1)The tank is going against and interior of exterior wall or the middle of the floor.

2)The Tank will be enclosed within a compartment that is approximately the same size as the foot print of the tank ? Or will the tank be accessed by the back in another room/section of the house ?

Keep in mind that allowing a tank to naturally evaporate into a large open space can have some advantages, both to your home and tank inhabitants. READ: CAN not always !


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

RR37 said:


> Sounds Awesome ! To be sure i Understand...
> 
> 1)The tank is going against and interior of exterior wall or the middle of the floor.
> 
> ...


Tank will be sitting on main floor against an interior of exterior wall (sitting perpendicular across the floor beams) - here's a picture from the basement point of view:










Tank will be enclosed within a compartment by about same size of foot print of tank - this is just an idea and it's not finalized. It sounds like it's not a good idea to have the tank completely enclosed for breathing purposes.

Now, how do I convince my wife that her idea stinks but I still get the tank upgrade??


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

goldfish said:


> Tank will be sitting on main floor against an interior of exterior wall (sitting perpendicular across the floor beams) - here's a picture from the basement point of view:












A) How long do these joists span to the next load bearing structure, beam or staircase ?

B) What dimension are the joists

C) What is the Joist spacing on centre ?

What is the approximate sq.ft of the room that you are looking to plant your new tank ?

At a minimum I would look into placing structure below the foot print to transfer the load to the concrete floor below. Installing a few posts may be all thats required for piece of mind. Its worth contacting a structural engineer as he/she should be able to give you a very quick answer on the dead load capabilities of your floor and how to safely load it. Any home in ontario built within the last 20 years should have flooring designed to accept dead loads in excess of 40lbs sq.ft over the entire floor. Meaning an 8x10' room should support a dead load of 3200lbs TOTAL. Any of this can change, as this is all assuming everything goes your way.



> Tank will be enclosed within a compartment by about same size of foot print of tank - this is just an idea and it's not finalized. It sounds like it's not a good idea to have the tank completely enclosed for breathing purposes.
> 
> Now, how do I convince my wife that her idea stinks but I still get the tank upgrade??


Its not terrible, some of the nicest tanks I have seen are setup like this, read Sweet Ride as an example.

Dude, your wifes Idea is awesome and I think if she wants a 180G you should do everything in your power to make it possible 

I notice your basement is unfinished, perhaps offer the solution of renovating it into the basement ? That way you can make yourself a nice big fish room behind the tank to hide out in  Its like a big boy fort.


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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

You have unfinished basement that is a great to plan all before you want to finish your basement. Make 4-5 posts directly under the tank location. 4x4 could be ideal. Install 2 againts the concrete wall and 3 infront .
Instal 2X4 across the joints and put post directly under the joints.
mount them to the floor ( Similar as you make wall ).
Inside that created space you have the sump so when you will be finishing your basement that should not be on your way.
Again I am not an engineer but it should make the support.


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## Toofem (Jan 20, 2013)

*This all sounds so exciting!!*

excellent luck with the build...


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

what is the flow direction on these both line. it looks like the slop in the wrong way



goldfish said:


> :


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

sig said:


> what is the flow direction on these both line. it looks like the slop in the wrong way


the 2 closest pipes are the drain pipes.....the one with the slope is the return line. it's not done correctly?


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

goldfish said:


> the 2 closest pipes are the drain pipes.....the one with the slope is the return line. it's not done correctly?


Ideally you will want drain lines sloping towards the eventual exit. Prevents blockage/sedimentation air hammers etc.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with your plan. 

Weight issue is easy to resolve; might not even be a problem. Depends on the construction of the house. 

Moisture can be seriously abated, check out my own 90G build thread for what I've got. I wouldn't worry about it. 

Keep your 30G sump and set up your whole new system. Use your old 90G as a separate refugium with a DSB. The additional water volume and biological filtration will be great for your system. 

If you want a professional opinion and a free estimate on the structural and the cabinetry, shoot me a PM. I do this for a living. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

IMHO your skimmer should do you fine. 

Your heaters won't be sufficient, I'd recommend running 3x 300W heaters in tandem with a temperature controller. I bought a used one from ameekplec and it keeps the temp bang on; I love it. 

And you certainly need a good ATO if you don't already have one. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

be aware the more open water area you have the more evaporation you will get >>> more humidity >>> more money spent on RODI filters >>>>> etc

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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

Kevin, you got PM.

Yeah, I was thinking the same about the additional heater and maybe an additional powerhead.

Of course, the lighting will also have to be upgraded.

Thanks.


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

sig said:


> be aware the more open water area you have the more evaporation you will get >>> more humidity >>> more money spent on RODI filters >>>>> etc


I haven't noticed too much evaporation in the room where the tank is - but for sure, lot more evaporation in the sump in the basement.


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## PureHash (Nov 29, 2012)

From my experience with mycology, I can tell you mold LOVES high humidity. But it also LOVES stale, stagnant air with lots of CO2.

That being said, you could put a vapor barrier over the tank, to kinda seal things in, and you could put some fans somwhere with a return air grill (for heating and airconditioning) over the fans for asthetics. The fans can draw out old stagnant CO2 rich air, in turn drawing fress oxygenated air in lessening the chance for mold growth.

Fungus on the otherhand LOVES high humidity, with LOTS of oxygen. So unless you want mushrooms growing in your walls, I would highly reccomend a vapour barrier, and a fan to keep air circulating.

Lastly both mold and fungus need a food source, in your case, the wood, and the paper on the drywall. So if you isolate the food source from the high humidity (with a vapour barrier) then mold and fungus will have nothing to eat, and will not grow.



goldfish said:


> Hey Alex.
> 
> Definitely a 6ft, 2ft deep and 22" high.....still thinking about it. I'm gonna get a quote from Nate for the tank build but the stuff you told me about evaporation concerns me. Are you saying because the tank will be enclosed, therefore more risk to get mould on the wall?
> 
> ...


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## PureHash (Nov 29, 2012)

You deffienetly don't want these growing in your home.

Green and black mold.

Black mold is especially poisionous to humans, it will grow in you, and eat itsway out through your skin, leaving burn like marks all over your body. 
There is no known cure for black mold poisioning.

I can also ASSURE you, that there is black, green, and puple molds all ffloating in the air you breath right now. All it takes is the right conditions for it to start growing somewhere greatly increasing the amount of open spores in the air your breathing. Take it into consideration, that I throw away any black mold that grows in my experiments. I'm scared of it... And it still manages to find its way into my tests even in sterile conditions. I would best avoid any possibilitys to grow mold. (LOTS of air circulation!!!!)


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

goldfish said:


> I haven't noticed too much evaporation in the room where the tank is - but for sure, lot more evaporation in the sump in the basement.


If the plumbing cycle (drain/pump) done properly,you will do not see evaporation from the tank (it will always be filled with the water)

I think the evaporation is higher as result of the waterfall from the second floor (sump in the basement)

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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

Not true. This is not open waterfall to have more water lost and it is not still evaporation.
The water is evaporating from the main tank as well as sump. the overflow is controling stedy level in main tank. 
It is only depend of air condition inside the house. In winter dry air due to heating -more water evaporating from any source of open water ( no need for humidifier if you have fish tank ).
In summer air is full of humid –very little evaporation-the air can not absorb too much water.


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

PKos said:


> Not true. This is not open waterfall to have more water lost and it is not still evaporation.
> The water is evaporating from the main tank as well as sump. the overflow is controling stedy level in main tank.
> It is only depend of air condition inside the house. In winter dry air due to heating -more water evaporating from any source of open water ( no need for humidifier if you have fish tank ).
> In summer air is full of humid -very little evaporation-the air can not absorb too much water.


Agitating water with air will cause evaporation events faster than stagnant water. The overflow increase the rate that the water will evaporate, Sig is correct. He wasn't trying to suggest water wasn't evaporating from any open section of the system. More that the way overflows function increase the rate of evaporation vs stationary water.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

RR37 said:


> Agitating water with air will cause evaporation events faster than stagnant water. The overflow increase the rate that the water will evaporate, Sig is correct. He wasn't trying to suggest water wasn't evaporating from any open section of the system. More that the way overflows function increase the rate of evaporation vs stationary water.


Thanks for translating my friend 

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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

Still not true . The overflow increase the rate that the water will evaporate only because the surface of water integrating with air will be larger by area of the sump.
Evaporation will be only larger or smaller depend on air condition in the house (the temperature and humidity)
The water movement in the tank has very little to increase that effect. Air movement above the tank if using the cooling fan will increase evaporation as dry air is pushing over the water .


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

PKos said:


> Still not true . The overflow increase the rate that the water will evaporate only because the surface of water integrating with air will be larger by area of the sump.
> Evaporation will be only larger or smaller depend on air condition in the house (the temperature and humidity)
> The water movement in the tank has very little to increase that effect. Air movement above the tank if using the cooling fan will increase evaporation as dry air is pushing over the water .


I don't think you understand. There are many factors when it comes to chemical changes of state. Atmospheric conditions play a role but not the only role.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

PKos said:


> Still not true . The overflow increase the rate that the water will evaporate only because the surface of water integrating with air will be larger by area of the sump.
> Evaporation will be only larger or smaller depend on air condition in the house (the temperature and humidity)
> The water movement in the tank has very little to increase that effect. Air movement above the tank if using the cooling fan will increase evaporation as dry air is pushing over the water .


true, not true - I do not care. Unfortunately, I can not explain you in the psychical terms the process, but will try to say - That evaporation from the system when *sump located in the basement and tank located 15' above* will be much higher than from the system when sump located 3' under tank
and this is proved fact on my system

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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

Sig, you are right.By moving water to different room with different air condition, evaporation will increase.
As you keep tank and sump in one room the area to be filled with vapor is smaller than room +basement.
In winter the difference will be lower as you circulating air around the house by heating fan ( unless you use heater radiators-old homes).


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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

The rate of evaporation of water molecules to the air will only change with the temperature of water ( in the case of fish tank does not apply cause we try to keep it steady.), surface of the water as more molecules are able to escape and the air condition above the surface-humidity, wind (air movement ) and pressure. 
And RR37 should consider a chemistry course.


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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

Ah I’m sorry rather physic science course


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

PKos said:


> The rate of evaporation of water molecules to the air will only change with the temperature of water ( in the case of fish tank does not apply cause we try to keep it steady.), surface of the water as more molecules are able to escape and the air condition above the surface-humidity, wind (air movement ) and pressure.
> And RR37 should consider a chemistry course.


So if my house has a relative humidity of 90% @ 77° how much will I evaporate over 12 hours ?

So if my house has a relative humidity of 30% @ 77° how much will I evaporate over 12 hours ?

If I were you I'd consider writing a paper. Call Cambridge, they will want to record your findings, this is the Natural Science breakthrough of 2013.

EDIT: And lets stop <profanity removed> up this thread. PM me if you require further explanation.

Sorry OP.


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

*No comments...*



Keep it coming....


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## explor3r (Mar 14, 2010)

Sorry I been away I dont log into GTTA very often but I think you getting a lot of help already.  Good luck


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

explor3r said:


> Sorry I been away I dont log into GTTA very often but I think you getting a lot of help already.  Good luck


I didn't hear from you lately so I thought you abandon the hobby already...

You got PM.


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## explor3r (Mar 14, 2010)

goldfish said:


> I didn't hear from you lately so I thought you abandon the hobby already...
> 
> You got PM.


Abandon the hobby.. neverrrrrr, saltwater runs tru my vains
Talk to you soon Im away for another 2 weeks or so..miss my tanks


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## wickedfrags (Sep 16, 2009)

do not delay an upgrade based on concerns over evaporation and/or humidity, there are many ways to deal with it, from exhaust fans, covering your water, de-humidistats, and the best and most permanent way, a heat recovery ventilator (HRV). i managed over 400G of water without issue, you will be fine.

should mould be present, you know you need to address the issue with one ideas above. good luck. cheers.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wickedfrags said:


> do not delay an upgrade based on concerns over evaporation and/or humidity, there are many ways to deal with it, from exhaust fans, covering your water, de-humidistats, and the best and most permanent way, a heat recovery ventilator (HRV). i managed over 400G of water without issue, you will be fine.
> 
> should mould be present, you know you need to address the issue with one ideas above. good luck. cheers.


Completely agree with you - when you have unlimited money available 

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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

wickedfrags said:


> do not delay an upgrade based on concerns over evaporation and/or humidity, there are many ways to deal with it, from exhaust fans, covering your water, de-humidistats, and the best and most permanent way, a heat recovery ventilator (HRV). i managed over 400G of water without issue, you will be fine.
> 
> should mould be present, you know you need to address the issue with one ideas above. good luck. cheers.


HRVs are great ! I'm trying to find out about seasonally switching the core over to an ERV.

An ERV is the best all season solution regarding IAC namely humidity control.(from what I hear) HRV's work well too but typically only during the winter months from my experiences. Last summer I overworked my AC bringing in humid air from the outdoors on the humid days. My hydro bill really sucked too . OP the above comments made by wickedfrags are correct, you know there will be some situations you'll need to deal with. Planning ahead is helpful but you won't really know what your dealing with until your dealing with it ! I've got 300 total volume and typically sit at %50 w/ an HRV in an R2000 home.

Side note ! Tell me you've set up another monster tank ? Last time I saw you I was buying live rock out of the display you were tearing down. Setting up another frag operation ?


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

Thanks guys for the tips.

How much does an HRV cost? You have to run it 24/7?


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

Depends on your house and the labour involved. 2-3K would be my guess depending on who you call and which model you choose. 

I run mine 24/7 in the winter, for your purposes I'd have it installed on a humidistat. Call an HVAC professional and inquire with them, they can advise you on which option works best in your situation be it dehumidifier or HRV/ERV.

HRVs are code on some types of residential developments, R2000 is an example of this.


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Adding my two cents.

Regardless of how much or how little moisture you have in your air, invest in a portable dehumidifier (I bought mine at costco on sale) and a simple humidity meter (under $5 at homedepot). Reason is simple, the less moisture in the air the more efficient everything becomes in your household.

For example, in my basement, I purposely moved my return duck to the opposite side of the room and put my dehumidifier close to the tank. The simple reason is so that the dehumidifier will remove the excess moisture and air will be "dry" going into my return. Immediate benefit was that my temperature was easier to control and my house heats up much faster.


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## wickedfrags (Sep 16, 2009)

no argument there, not a cheap hobby



sig said:


> Completely agree with you - when you have unlimited money available


most just turn the unit off in the summer when it is time to run the AC

no big tank in the immediate future for me, just running a 90g now, selling all the stuff from my big system including that leftover rock!



RR37 said:


> HRVs are great ! I'm trying to find out about seasonally switching the core over to an ERV.
> 
> An ERV is the best all season solution regarding IAC namely humidity control.(from what I hear) HRV's work well too but typically only during the winter months from my experiences. Last summer I overworked my AC bringing in humid air from the outdoors on the humid days. My hydro bill really sucked too . OP the above comments made by wickedfrags are correct, you know there will be some situations you'll need to deal with. Planning ahead is helpful but you won't really know what your dealing with until your dealing with it ! I've got 300 total volume and typically sit at %50 w/ an HRV in an R2000 home.
> 
> Side note ! Tell me you've set up another monster tank ? Last time I saw you I was buying live rock out of the display you were tearing down. Setting up another frag operation ?


plan on 1200-1500 for the correct size HRV

if you are running a large system dehumidifiers are useless, they can not keep up as they don't have adequate capacity, and FYI inexpensive humidistats are typically off by 10-15%, $1500 price point gets you an accurate one as I worked in this area at one time



wiseguyphil said:


> Adding my two cents.
> 
> Regardless of how much or how little moisture you have in your air, invest in a portable dehumidifier (I bought mine at costco on sale) and a simple humidity meter (under $5 at homedepot). Reason is simple, the less moisture in the air the more efficient everything becomes in your household.
> 
> For example, in my basement, I purposely moved my return duck to the opposite side of the room and put my dehumidifier close to the tank. The simple reason is so that the dehumidifier will remove the excess moisture and air will be "dry" going into my return. Immediate benefit was that my temperature was easier to control and my house heats up much faster.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wickedfrags said:


> no argument there, not a cheap hobby
> 
> no big tank in the immediate future for me, just running a 90g now, selling all the stuff from my big system including that leftover rock!


That is what I am doing now - from 200 to 100 and I am happy, no excessive humidity and no crazy expenses

I think 80-120G is the best reasonable size, until you make a profit or it is just one thing that you enjoy. 
Money and other factors also could play a role . JMO

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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

sig said:


> That is what I am doing now - from 200 to 100 and I am happy, no excessive humidity and no crazy expenses
> 
> I think 80-120G is the best reasonable size, until you make a profit or it is just one thing that you enjoy.
> Money and other factors also could play a role . JMO


But more important - is the wife happy or still calling you names?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

she is happy now and no names calling 

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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Just want to clarify, dehumidifiers do come with a drain if you don't want to empty it all the time. The humidistats is just to give you a rough idea. Most dehumidifiers do have one built in.

Here is my tank 150, plus my dehumidifier.

Before I purchased one, in the summer without it was around 60 in the basement with the AC on. Granted I did have halides at the time and not LEDs. The pics were just taken.


















[QUOTE/] if you are running a large system dehumidifiers are useless, they can not keep up as they don't have adequate capacity, and FYI inexpensive humidistats are typically off by 10-15%, $1500 price point gets you an accurate one as I worked in this area at one time[/QUOTE]


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## PKos (Jan 24, 2013)

RR37-you should not give advice to people if you don’t know basic physics no mention chemistry knowledge .


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

PKos said:


> RR37-you should not give advice to people if you don't know basic physics no mention chemistry knowledge .


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is a forum after all. People's experience is always a valid perspective whether wrong or right


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

PKos said:


> RR37-you should not give advice to people if you don't know basic physics no mention chemistry knowledge .


I tried to stay out from commenting on what you say, but looks like you are not stopping to insult people on this forum.

So please go back to the sand...and stick your head in as deep as it will go. Only come out if you find the sand crystals have seeped into your ear canals and formed a brain of sorts....or anything that resembles a smidgen of common sense.

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

This sniping at each other is just distracting the purpose of goldfish planning his upgrade.

Comments to the sniping aside, please keep this thread on point or it will be locked as it has lost the constructiveness in goldfishs' planning.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wtac said:


> This sniping at each other is just distracting the purpose of goldfish planning his upgrade.
> 
> Comments to the sniping aside, please keep this thread on point or it will be locked as it has lost the constructiveness in goldfishs' planning.


I complete agree with this statement 

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## liz (Jan 16, 2008)

Irrelevant posts should deleted.


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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

wickedfrags said:


> no argument there, not a cheap hobby
> 
> most just turn the unit off in the summer when it is time to run the AC
> 
> ...


Good to see you back Dave.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Another option is to make a filtration room from and isolate it the rest of the basement. Depending on what space you want to allocate for it, you can include a water mixing/water change station and utility sink.

For the humidity, a ceiling fan and vent it outside. Hopefully there is a floor drain near to incorporate into the filtration room as it makes it handy for leaks and draining water.

Here's one that I finished last fall. There's more equipment in the lower sump now but it gives you an idea of what you can do.

RO/DI storage (top) and NSW mixing (bottom) with pump.









Double stacked filtration. Macroalgae refugium on top.









This project Flavio and I worked on in various stages.

Water changes take 5mins including making NSW. In the DT, there is enough sand sifters and stirrers that gravel vac is done every 2-3 months and is always "clean" on the surface.

Just an idea for you to ponder .


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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

Looking good Wilson,


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

wtac said:


> Another option is to make a filtration room from and isolate it the rest of the basement. Depending on what space you want to allocate for it, you can include a water mixing/water change station and utility sink.
> 
> For the humidity, a ceiling fan and vent it outside. Hopefully there is a floor drain near to incorporate into the filtration room as it makes it handy for leaks and draining water.
> 
> ...


Thanks Wilson for some of your ideas - I've got some already incorporated in my current setup (I've got my sump, macroalgae, water changes refill tank, utility sink) all done in my unfinished basement without having to worry about any type of water spills or something. 

Only thing is that it takes me about 20 minutes to drain/refill 20g of new water instead of the 5 minutes. In order to remove the old water, I'm doing the old method of sucking the water from a hose into buckets but you've given me an idea to put a drain pipe in the sump.

Right now, I've noticed that most evaporation occurs in the basement as the water in the DT always remains constant. Would it be more important to add a de-humidifier in the basement (where the sump resides) or as you suggested, a ceiling fan on the main floor (where the DT resides)?


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## RR37 (Nov 6, 2012)

goldfish said:


> Right now, I've noticed that most evaporation occurs in the basement as the water in the DT always remains constant. Would it be more important to add a de-humidifier in the basement (where the sump resides) or as you suggested, a ceiling fan on the main floor (where the DT resides)?


When talking about evaporation think of your system as one complete body of water, typically you should only "see" evaporation from the lowest part of the system. IE The last baffle in your sump where your return pump sits. It will evaporate from all sections but your return pump is constantly filling up your display and the sections that follow in your sump constantly replenishing whats evaporated. Make Sense ?

HTH


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

RR37 is correct as you will "only see" that water has evaporated in the sump area.

A ceiling fan will only work effectively if the sump/filtration is isolated in a fish room. The fish room I posted is ~15' x 6' foot print with 10' ceiling height with a 200cfm fan. Humidity doesn't get higher than 50% and is controlled by a humidistat. To save on useable space, use a pocket door and spend the extra $30-60 for SS bearing roller wheels as they will last much longer and roll smoother with less effort.

It's much easier to address humidity if the source is contained in a room vs having to address the entire basement. I would consider the cost differential of the E/I/HRV vs building a fish room. IMHO/E, a fish room will be best for all household members as it's easier to keep fish "stuff" contained and organized in one space (humidity and odors as well) and not intermingled, co-existing with other storage items...you will accumulate "stuff" .

The water change I drilled a hole in the side of the sump and used a fitting so I can adjust for the "running" water level. When I do the water change, the valve is opened so it can drain was the NSW is pumped in.









The blue dots are just to help the client know which way to turn the valve "open". The NSW enters at the return pump intake which is downstream from the drain opening. About 40gal of NSW is changes bi-weekly.

It takes a bit of planning to make a fish room efficient and easy to work with in and negotiation with the wife on how much space you can have. _Generally speaking_, significant others like the finished product of the DT but not necessarily understand the scope one needs to not only sustain the DT but to make it easier to maintain.

Make a work area for water tests, wireless for iPad/laptop, chair, telephone...make it your own little man cave .


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

RR37 said:


> When talking about evaporation think of your system as one complete body of water, typically you should only "see" evaporation from the lowest part of the system. IE The last baffle in your sump where your return pump sits. It will evaporate from all sections but your return pump is constantly filling up your display and the sections that follow in your sump constantly replenishing whats evaporated. Make Sense ?
> 
> HTH


yes - it makes sense.

So can I assume that the main DT has more evaporation than the sump?


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

wtac said:


> It's much easier to address humidity if the source is contained in a room vs having to address the entire basement. I would consider the cost differential of the E/I/HRV vs building a fish room. IMHO/E, a fish room will be best for all household members as it's easier to keep fish "stuff" contained and organized in one space (humidity and odors as well) and not intermingled, co-existing with other storage items...you will accumulate "stuff" .
> ...
> 
> It takes a bit of planning to make a fish room efficient and easy to work with in and negotiation with the wife on how much space you can have. _Generally speaking_, significant others like the finished product of the DT but not necessarily understand the scope one needs to not only sustain the DT but to make it easier to maintain.


Right now, my basement is unfinished and is wide open. I don't really have a fish room per se but I do have a section in the basement where all my fish stuff are.

Right now, I've got the whole basement to myself and I can do as I please with/without wife's approval. 

So just make an room enclosure where my fish stuff resides and run a dehumidifier?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Wilson, what you suggest to do with air return for furnace located in this room?

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

goldfish said:


> Right now, my basement is unfinished and is wide open. I don't really have a fish room per se but I do have a section in the basement where all my fish stuff are.
> 
> Right now, I've got the whole basement to myself and I can do as I please with/without wife's approval.
> 
> So just make an room enclosure where my fish stuff resides and run a dehumidifier?


In the event that you will finish the basement, I would "enclose" the fish room. You don't want the inherent noise of the system interfering with enjoying a movie with the family/guests. Also it will keep your kids away from mucking around the fish stuff . It's all planning and thinking many, many steps ahead.

You can run a dehumidifier in an enclosed fish room but I guarantee you that it will get warm and the air becoming "stale" and that's a potential problem for the system as a whole. Exhausting the air out is best route to take.

JME/HO/2C


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

sig said:


> Wilson, what you suggest to do with air return for furnace located in this room?


I am assuming your fish room, Greg? If you aren't experiencing condensation or mold in other areas of the house, I would safely say that evaporation from your system isn't causing an issue but if you have any doubt or experiencing excess condensation on the windows, call a professional to assess your situation.

Personally, I prefer to have the fishroom exhausted outside and independent of the main house ventilation system. One can have a heat/AC supply pushed *into *the fish room. You can at least adjust/close the vent as needed. Again, if in doubt, call a professional.

HTH


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

wtac said:


> .....
> 
> You can run a dehumidifier in an enclosed fish room but I guarantee you that it will get warm and the air becoming "stale" and that's a potential problem for the system as a whole. *Exhausting the air out is best route to take*.
> 
> JME/HO/2C


Would you have to run this 24/7 exhausting the air out? Would it work just like a bathroom fan?

I suppose you have done alot of maintenance/setup of marine tanks? How many people you have seen actually do have something like that in place?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I had no choice but to replace 20' of the return line to the furnace . It was completely rusted from the fish room to the furnace

I had very big open water surfaces and ~ 2 G per day evaporation. Humidity was ~ 80 during a summer/ fall

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

sig said:


> I had no choice but to replace 20' of the return line to the furnace . It was completely rusted from the fish room to the furnace
> 
> I had very big open water surfaces and ~ 2 G per day evaporation. Humidity was ~ 80 during a summer/ fall


Sorry you had to go through this but sharing this misfortune will help many others to take into consideration in their planning.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

goldfish said:


> Would you have to run this 24/7 exhausting the air out? Would it work just like a bathroom fan?
> 
> I suppose you have done alot of maintenance/setup of marine tanks? How many people you have seen actually do have something like that in place?


With dedicated fishrooms, every one that I have seen has an exhaust system in place. Whether they were part of a design plan or installed after due to other issues, that I don't know as either the Q wasn't asked or the owner didn't divulge.

The fishrooms that I have been involved in the build the fans are controlled by a humistat.

Quite a few years back, someone in the US had a 4000gal or so installed into his house. In a few years the humidity issues pretty much ruined most of his house.


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

RR37 said:


> Depends on your house and the labour involved. 2-3K would be my guess depending on who you call and which model you choose.
> 
> I run mine 24/7 in the winter, for your purposes I'd have it installed on a humidistat. Call an HVAC professional and inquire with them, they can advise you on which option works best in your situation be it dehumidifier or HRV/ERV.
> 
> HRVs are code on some types of residential developments, R2000 is an example of this.


Can you recommend someone that you have used previously?


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