# Disease id please!



## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hello Everyone,

I have been fighting some sort of disease for at least 3 months now I've tried kanaplex but no help. Some fish turn black( get dark stains) and die others have some sort of white spots, and the danios develop dropsy and die. Here are some pics can some identify it and suggest some meds? 

The harlequin rasbora has white stuff on its back fin, and the serpae tetra is going black. Here are the pics.

Thanks


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

The serape died this morning, I will be doing 50% emergenecy water change when I get home


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

what are your water parameters? Ammonia, Nitrate, ph?
'white spots' is usually ick, but I've had angels in the past with whitish fungus around their mouths. They were a rescue project. Do you have a quarantine tank to separate the sick fish from the not sick ones?

Al.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I would change more than 50%. If there are water borne pathogens or toxins, the change will get rid of that percentage. If you do 50% you will remove 50%, only. At this point, water parameters aren't really important.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

BillD said:


> ...At this point, water parameters aren't really important.


The reason I asked about water parameters, is because of his original description of fish 'turning black', which is usually a sign of ammonia burn, in my experience. Even a small degree of ammonia burn can make fish more vulnerable to parasites due to ulcers that the pathogens can exploit, which might also account for the ick and dropsy.

Back in the days before the internet and information being so readily available, the common mantra was "If something goes wrong in your tank, start with investigating the water, and then go on from there".

Al.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

The first thing we usually ask is for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates when there is a problem.

Never knew about ammonia burn, nice to have new info I didn't know


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Thank you for your responses.I just did a 50% water change. It looks like it might actually be ammonia burn because I read that it may also cause red streaks and spots along the body,as well as loss of apetite. That is actually the case with a roseline shark and my male krib.As you seen in the second pic, the white stuff is more like a fungus rather than ick since it's more like a patch rather than a dot. I came late so I didn't get the chance to actually get water params for you.I do have a small QT tank that I treated with Kanaplex( that's where the krib is).What's the next step?

Thanks


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

get testing the water asap


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Alright I will get that for you tomorrow


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Mlevi said:


> The reason I asked about water parameters, is because of his original description of fish 'turning black', which is usually a sign of ammonia burn, in my experience. Even a small degree of ammonia burn can make fish more vulnerable to parasites due to ulcers that the pathogens can exploit, which might also account for the ick and dropsy.
> 
> Al.


I understand your point, but when you get to a situation like this, what the numbers are aren't as important as acting quickly. Testing the water will not tell you if there is a large number of pathogens or toxins in the tank, other than ammonia or nitrite. If I had a nickle for every time someone has posted a problem and their water parameters are good, I would be quite comfortable. If you have a problem, the easiest start to a solution is to get rid of the problem by removing it from the tank. You don't have to know what it is, specifically, to get it out.The reality is that if their are pathogens in the tank you won't ever know specifically what they are, but your actions will determine the outcome (maybe). Sometimes it will be for naught, but you have to try. things like ich and some other parasites are visible, but the majority of infections will be difficult to diagnose, unless you can do cultures. The problem with that is by the time you find out the cause it may be too late. If you have a viral problem, there really isn't much you can do.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

but water parameters being bad causes the fish to have lower immunity to the bad stuff that is basically present in every tank. It just doesn't get to infect the fish because the slime coat is good and they are healthy.

If I was to suddenly start adding lots of ammonia to one of my healthy tanks causing levels to get high, I bet after a while you would see things like ick develop on my fish that are perfectly healthy right now.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ok here are my water params today after a water change yesterday:
based on the API MASTER TEST KIT SCALE

Ammonia : around 0.25 ppm

Nitrite: Close to 0 ppm

Nitrate: closer to 160 ppm then to 80 ppm (160 is max on the scale )

I don't know what it is but it is a killer (another harlequin rasbora died today)

Thanks


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Sometimes its hard to read ammonia, in some lighting 0 can look like .25. Now, since you did a 50 percent wc and nitrates are so extreme, they were double that before the wc and probably the source of your problem. Low nitrates are fine, but when you get that high, it causes problems.

I recommend another 50 percent wc, and then another 50 percent the next day and so on until nitrates get below 20.

I can tell that you have done one of the following in the past: not enough wc, over feeding or over stocking or a combination of these.

If you don't have plants, I recommend getting some, they help reduce nitrates, some more than others.


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## Tino (Sep 10, 2012)

Which plants help the most with nitrate control? (sorry, don't mean to hijack  )


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

one that I've heard is good is hornwort. Generally fast growing plants use more nitrates.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ok, I will definitely do more water changes. I do have live plants. What do you mean by overstocking? Do you mean having more fish than the aquarium can support.( If so, I have a 90g tank what is a good number of fish to have? I currently have 3 rainbows and around 20 smaller tetras and dither fish and 3 small plecos), or do you mean stocking too many fish at once, because I usually introduce more than 1 fish at a time.What should the nitrates drop to? What should I do after the nitrates drop?

Thanks


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## mistersprinkles (Nov 4, 2013)

mitko1994 said:


> What should the nitrates drop to? What should I do after the nitrates drop?
> 
> Thanks


20ppm or less of nitrates.

You need to address the ammonia that was in your tank too. You may need better biofiltration, feed less/more carefully, or a combination of the two.

Once you get the nitrate down to 20 ppm, keep up with very frequent water changes. Start with once every 2-3 days and keep an eye on the nitrates. Generally, it's good to keep nitrate at or below 20ppm, if possible. So do water changes as often as is necessary to keep the nitrates at or below 20ppm, for optimal conditions.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

not exactly more fish than the tank can handle, as long as the fish have enough room to move around and the filter is able to keep up with the bio load, the only problem with over stocking is the extra nitrates which just requires more water changes.

My new 20 long setup will be over stocked a bit, but the filters will be able to keep up with the bio load. I am going to have to do more frequent and larger water changes to keep nitrates in control. I need to be extra careful with over feeding which I tend to do.

I have a 10 gallon next to me right now that has a few dozen feeder guppies, it is definitely over stocked. Need to get rid of some more guppies.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Thanks pyrrolin, I just looked closely and noticed this white line/patch on the back end of the body on one of my rainbows. When looking at it from a different level it looks like it's slightly sticking out, but maybe it's a scar. Here is a pic.


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## mistersprinkles (Nov 4, 2013)

mitko1994 said:


> Thanks pyrrolin, I just looked closely and noticed this white line/patch on the back end of the body on one of my rainbows. When looking at it from a different level it looks like it's slightly sticking out, but maybe it's a scar. Here is a pic.


Looks like some sort of fungus.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

So would the fungus go away on its own as the water parameters stabalize? Also I read tons of good reviews about Seacheim Matrix filter media, and it's fairly cheap considering it doesn't need replacement. Does anyone have any experience with it?

Thanks


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## mistersprinkles (Nov 4, 2013)

mitko1994 said:


> So would the fungus go away on its own as the water parameters stabalize? Also I read tons of good reviews about Seacheim Matrix filter media, and it's fairly cheap considering it doesn't need replacement. Does anyone have any experience with it?
> 
> Thanks


I'd try some Pimafix once you get your water parameters under control. It's all natural. It's made from some kind of pepper. It's an antifungal.

Seachem Matrix is not necessarily any better than any other filter media. If your flow rate is under 50GPH, which no decently sized filter is, you can run Matrix and take advantage of it's anaerobic bacterial properties, but that takes over 6 months to build up. There are other media that do the same thing, like BioHome.
Your filter media isn't the issue here. Use any decent filter media.

If you want nitrate removal, the best thing is lots of water changes. Alternatively, you can buy an Aquaripure filter, or run Nitrazorb, or Purigen.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

water changes are best and cheapest to


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hey guys,

I picked up 1L of seachem Matrix and put it in of my canister's cartridges. I did do a nitrate check right before I put the media in the filter and is it seems like it has improved (it is somewhere b/w 40-80 ppm but closer to 80 I would think). I will do another water check on Sunday and see how the media is performing? The guy at Big Al's was very nice and gave me some duckweed for free just to help with my nitrate level. Now I'm wondering if I can grow it, I know it's not very demanding, but I have an LED light fixture(link to it,I have the 48-60in model) and I'm unsure if the light is strong enough to make it spread fast. What do you think?

Thanks


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

it should grow just fine, but not if there is lots of surface agitation, worth a try. water changes are your best bet for lowering nitrates.


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## mistersprinkles (Nov 4, 2013)

mitko1994 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I picked up 1L of seachem Matrix and put it in of my canister's cartridges. I did do a nitrate check right before I put the media in the filter and is it seems like it has improved (it is somewhere b/w 40-80 ppm but closer to 80 I would think). I will do another water check on Sunday and see how the media is performing? The guy at Big Al's was very nice and gave me some duckweed for free just to help with my nitrate level. Now I'm wondering if I can grow it, I know it's not very demanding, but I have an LED light fixture(link to it,I have the 48-60in model) and I'm unsure if the light is strong enough to make it spread fast. What do you think?
> 
> Thanks


If your nitrate dropped by itself, it's not the matrix. It doesn't work like that. All matrix is is a porous ceramic biomedia that soaks water up and allows bacteria to build up inside it. It will only lower nitrate if

A) the flow is very low in the filter. A standard Canister setup is not low enough

B) it has been in such a filter for at least 6 months, for anaerobic bacteria to build up.

The light you have (I have the same one) is more than sufficient for growing duckweed btw so should do well for you. Hornwort is another one that really soaks up nitrate when you have lots of it floating around. It's messy though, as is duckweed.


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## SKurj (Oct 26, 2011)

if you want to lower your nitrates change the water. this is guaranteed to lower your nitrates. If you have no nitrates in your tap water, changing 50% of your water(at once) should reduce your nitrates by 50%. You should do at least 50% per day for the next 3 days if you really want to get that nitrate level down.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ok problems keep piling up. I see that one of my rainbows has developed some fungus. Is there a way of treating without disturbing the whole tank and filter setup, maybe with salt or something else that could be applied in a QT.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I don't think salt helps with fungus.

Did you do some water changes yet? The main thing is to take care of the cause of the problems.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Yes, I just did another 50% water change on the main tank. I also took another nitrate measure and it looks like it has improved since Friday, when I added the Seachem Matrix. It's closer to the 40ppm mark now.I also moved the rainbow with fungus to the QT, and did a 50% water change on the QT as well, and added some Kanaplex I had left over from a previous treatment to this problem, however it didn't help at the time.My QT is also a host to my male krib which I moved 2-3 weeks ago.It refuses to eat and it's body is dark red, and it's dorsal fin seems to be eating away( pretty much the same symptoms before I moved it, but no improvement ever since) How should I proceed with the QT, in terms of water changes and adding the rest of the med I have ( I probably have for 2 more doses)? I apologize for asking so many questions but I have never faced a problem like that, which causes tons of side effects as well. 

Thanks


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Here's a pic of the the krib( the first indicator to the problem)


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I would do another large water change on the main tank tomorrow and then another after a few days. You should keep nitrates under 30, 10 to 20 is a good range.

As for the QT, best to follow the directions of the meds I'm thinking


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Should I be doing any water changes to the QT as KanaPlex doesn't specify?


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## SKurj (Oct 26, 2011)

keep changing 50% of the water daily. if you look up nitrate reduction you will see that it is impossible for matrix to have reduced it already, it may never reduce your nitrates.
Best thing you can do is water changes. It wouldn't even hurt if you did 90%. It can't get any worse from the sounds of things and it may help a lot.

Stop adding meds that have not done any good. Might be useful to add carbon for a little while to remove all the meds so you can get back to square one with just clean water.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

A few things to consider is do you have an already cycled filter? If not, your are going to get a buildup of ammonia and you will have to do wc to keep ammonia down. Also make sure you don't have carbon in the QT tank as it removes the meds.

Usually you don't do water changes for a couple days while dosing meds and then you do a large wc when done with the meds but being a QT tank, probably don't need to do that, assuming you have a cycled filter running and don't have to keep ammonia under control


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Thank you everyone, 
Here is a quick update on the situation: I have been busy the past 2 days and have not done a WC since Sunday. I will be doing one today and I will do a Nitrate test right before and I will post the results of that tonight. As for the QT, the rainbow seems to be doing well, it looks like the Kanaplex has removed all of the white fungus that had built up, but I will keep it there for another 2-3 days just in case. I also moved the male krib back to main tank since it probably wasn't sick but was just feeling the effects of bad water conditions. The problem is that it refuses to eat and has halved in size, he is so weak he gets tired when swimming.


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## mistersprinkles (Nov 4, 2013)

mitko1994 said:


> I also moved the male krib back to main tank since it probably wasn't sick but was just feeling the effects of bad water conditions. The problem is that it refuses to eat and has halved in size, he is so weak he gets tired when swimming.


That sounds like a sick fish to me. I'd keep it in quarantine.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

If the fish was subjected to very high ammonia, nitrite OR nitrate levels, it may well be badly damaged and perhaps won't recover.

Ammonia and it's metabolites, nitrite and nitrate, are all quite toxic to fish. The gills are burned first, because gills have the highest exposure, with water constantly passing through them as the fish breathes. 

Next comes the body, and fish often clamp fins, struggle to swim or gasp near the top as the gill damage is making it hard to breathe. The body can be severely burned by very high levels, the black body that was referred to. Then internal organ damage follows, as the toxic effects spread through the fish. If it gets to that stage the fish is going to die.

Nitrates are often somewhat dismissed, or thought to be not toxic, but they are merely LESS toxic than ammonia and nitrite. Plants can consume all three of these compounds as food. Plants will consume nitrate as food, but there needs to be a lot of plants to use up the kind of levels you had. Any reading over 50 ppm of nitrate can do harm to fish.. double that or more is as bad as ammonia would have been, it merely takes a bit longer for effects to be seen.

Floater plants such as hornwort or guppy grass, and surface floaters like frogbit or baby water lettuce, are all high consumers of nitrate, but duckweed, either the tiny one, L. minor, or the larger one, L. major, are perhaps the fastest 'nitrate suckers'. Fast growing, easy stem plants are also helpful. Some can be left to float too, like anacharis.

I don't remember what you testing with, if it was mentioned. But if you are using dip strips, might be better to switch to liquid tests. Dip strips are useful for super quick results that give you a rough idea of what's going on. I back them up with liquid tests for accuracy.

Fish that do recover from ammonia, nitrite or nitrate toxicity often do not live very long after ward. Usually, it will greatly shorten life span, sometimes to mere weeks after water remediation is done.

If water is very toxic, it's quite possible to do multiple water changes, one after another, or allow a half hour to an hour between them if it worries you. I don't leave any time between if the need arises. You change half, then change half, then change half, as many times as needed to have your test results read zero nitrite, zero ammonia and nitrates no higher than 30.. though ideally, most of us aim for 20 or less.

Doing changes this way is less shock to fish than remaining in toxic water is, and usually does less harm than leaving them in the toxic water. Using a Python style changer, on the two occasions I had a filter failure and got low nitrite readings, I simply sucked out half, put it back, sucked it out, put it back, and once again, all without ever removing the Python. Fish were fine, filter recovered quickly, no problem. Just be sure to match the temperature within a degree or two, and use enough Prime for each change to do the whole tank.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hello guys

Unfortunately the krib didn't make it. I did a 50% water change and the reading of the nitrates right before the WC are somewhere between the 20-30, but it looks like it's closer to 20ppm. The weird thing was that the test tubes with samples from different days that I left for my own reference had the exact same colour as the one I just took, but I'm pretty sure they were red when I took them. Anyways I will probably do another WC on Friday and post the results then.Thank you all for your responses you have really helped.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

nitrates should now be at a good level. Now you just need to make sure your cycle is complete, wait a couple days and then check ammonia and nitrites. if both are 0 and nitrates are under 30, you are good to go.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Tests that are left sitting won't stay the same as they are at the time you first read them, necessarily. Some will change quite a lot if left to do so. Strip tests turn all sorts of odd colours after the time window for reading the result passes. 

You have to write down the result you get, or maybe take a pic of it with the colour chart, to be able to refer back to it later on with another test. Be aware a photo won't always give you a true colour representation.

Also, tests should always be read in the same lighting. Daylight is best, giving the truest colours but under a 65 or 6700 K bulb is next best. If you read them under different light sources, you won't get the same result because different light sources will affect how the colours appear to our eyes.

Condolences on the Krib. Harsh having to learn things this way.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ok looks like I'm in the zone !!! Nitrates are somewhere between 10 and 20 ppm as of today. I'm going to do another water change tomorrow. Here is a pic of one of my harlequins it was in the QT for a week but I don't think it has improved so I moved it back in the main tank. As you will notice, it's very pale and has some white patches. The second pic can be used as a comparison to see how pale it is compared to a healthy harlequin. Do you think it's sick from poor water quality or it's some sort of fungus. If it's not something contagious I don't mind keeping it in the main since I can stop maintaining the QT. What do you guys think?


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

could just be stressed being alone in the qt, see how it is tomorrow in the main tank


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

looks like it's doing better it got most of its colours back


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

I did a check for nitrites and ammonia last night, here are the results:
Ammonia: b/w 0 - 0.25
Nitrites: 0


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

sounds like you are all good now, just keep up enough water changes to control nitrates


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Now that I have the water params all settled, I wan't to ask you some questions about a few plants a got at lucky's pet store in Toronto(Pacific Mall), the guy is Chinese and didn't know the name of the plants so I would like to ask you for some help identifying them. Also a lot of them have holes in the leaves it looks like it's some sort of deficiency, from what I read possibly potassium. However I have a suspicion that some of my fish are picking on the plants but I haven't caught them in the act, but these plants used to be pretty tall especially the one in the second picture. They had many leaves but over the span of a week I would takeout a long leaf floating around my tank. The foreground plant is the one that seemed to have been disturbed the least but it has a lot of holes. These plants were sold to me as easy plants that don't require CO2
my fish: Plecos, Krib, Odessa barbs, rainbows, tetras, roseline sharks

Thanks


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

What light do you have on this tank ?

Plant appear to be an Ozelot sword #1. #2 might be giant Sag, more likely it is one of the Valiserias. #3 Java fern.

Low light, not demanding, but root feeders like swords do benefit from root tabs in the substrate. 

Vals can come back from almost nothing and do well. For the fern, make sure the rhizome is not buried in substrate. It will rot if it is. Fern leaves that are no longer attached to the rhizome are still capable of making a baby plantlet or two if left to float for awhile. So long as they are green, they may still make a baby or two.

Not sure why the holes are happening, but if a leaf is badly damaged, just remove it. Sometimes a big change in water can make a plant look sad for awhile, but all these are pretty tough and should recover. The ferns are most often tied to rocks or wood until they take hold with their own roots, which are black, btw. The rhizome is green, but the roots are black.

Make sure the crowns of the sword and vals aren't buried either. This can cause rot as well.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

link to the light I have the 48-60 an the tank is 90g
The 3rd one is not java fern. I know for a fact because I have java fern in the tank. When I bought the plants, all of them were buried in the substrate in the FS tank, and They were all healthy. What do you mean by make sure the crowns are not buried?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Sorry, sure looked like java fern to me. 

By not burying the crowns, I mean, don't allow the central section of plants with crowns to be buried under the gravel. Many plants have crowns.. Crypts and Swords are common ones in the aquarium with crowns. 

It is the part where the new leaves erupt. Crowned plants always produce new leaves from the very middle of the bunch of leaves, rather than growing a stem that produces leaves along it's length. Many crowned plants also produce runners and new plantlets, and each of those new plantlets will have a crown too. But usually they are fine, as the runner most often grows at just the right depth for the new plantlets to sprout up. Some runners may grow above the gravel, and simply root new plantlets into it as the runner goes along.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=87

I think this is the 3rd plant, however mine is in worse condition. Regarding the crowns, I have them buried so that right above the substrate is the part of the plant where all the leaves come together. I will try and take a pic later tonight.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

I forgot to mention this but one of my danios has pretty bad dropsy and will die pretty soon, I can't remember when the swelling started, but most likely it is due to the bad water params I had before. All my other fish are doing fine and have no signs of any disease or swelling. I did have a lot of danios and over the course of 4-5 months a lot of them died from dropsy. Are they a fish that is prone to dropsy? Also when I bought them at the store they were pretty big, maybe they are just too old now?


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## mistersprinkles (Nov 4, 2013)

mitko1994 said:


> I forgot to mention this but one of my danios has pretty bad dropsy and will die pretty soon, I can't remember when the swelling started, but most likely it is due to the bad water params I had before. All my other fish are doing fine and have no signs of any disease or swelling. I did have a lot of danios and over the course of 4-5 months a lot of them died from dropsy. Are they a fish that is prone to dropsy? Also when I bought them at the store they were pretty big, maybe they are just too old now?


Fish usually just die of old age. They don't tend to develop all sorts of nasty diseases at the end of their lives. It's possible that the danios were very old but I wouldn't link that to them getting dropsy.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Some danios, in my experience, appear to be somewhat prone to dropsy. But it's not age, it would almost certainly be poor water parameters. This is the most common link to dropsy, though it is rarely contagious. It's believed to be caused by one of the opportunistic organisms that live in most aquariums. They don't do much harm unless an 'opportunity' arises. A weakened or otherwise vulnerable fish will get dropsy, and the others usually won't. 

Bad water makes them more susceptible to dropsy, possibly by increasing the numbers of opportunistic organisms. I had a bout of it, where I lost 3 different danios to dropsy, one at a time, over a period of a few months. All the same age, not old either. If you are losing more than one at a time, I'd guess water parameters are the root cause.

If you want to be kind, don't let the poor fish just die. Get some clove oil and euthanize humanely. I suspect it must be very painful at the end, with all that pressure on every internal organ, and their eyes popping out. They have quite a well developed nervous system and plenty of pain sensory nerves.


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## mitko1994 (Dec 12, 2012)

Just did a nitrate reading and it shows about 20ppm


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