# Help with Fertalizers



## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

I am starting a 75 gallon planted tank, and have an existing 65 which is moderately heavily planted. In the past I had an overstocked 35 (which is now the 65) which did OK with just iron/potasium, though I think it could have been better. 

My 75 has some more demanding plants (Nesaea Crassicaulis, Rotala macrandra 'Green' , L. aromatica, Hydrotriche hottoniiflora, syrogenes repens, etc). I will have pressurized CO2 with an inline diffuser, and should be able to get around 30ppm. I have a dual T5HO light with good reflectors (I think it is a coralife). 

The tank will eventually be pretty heavily stocked, with mostly small fish (neon tetras, guppies, etc). 

I am happy to get any advice on fertilizing. EI indexing isn't really much of an option, because with such a tank it requires a 50% weekly water change. I don't think I can maintain it on such a large tank. If there are any products that are particularly good, which specific ferts I should probably add, etc. 

: )


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

Your taking Ei too literally, no one said you must do %50 WC a week. If you don't have the time to do the WC just dose less. Ie instead of dosing as instructed for 60-80g tank dose for 40-60g if all plants grow well go even less 20-40g less dosing, more time for the fertz to build up therefore less WC. Every tank is different of course so you must trial and error until you find the right amount or you can try pps pro dosing. Also I don't think you have enough lights for your tank size, so it probably won't even grow fast enough for the plants to require ei dosing.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

I was mistaken, it's not a coralife, it's an Aquaticlife. My best guess estimate based on Hoppy's charts from plantedtank.net is I am getting about 45 PAR at the base of my tank, which should put me just short of high light at the base. 

Maybe I will consider EI dosing as if a smaller tank. I will look into it. Where do you guys get your ferts for the EI dosing?


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

I have the exact same fixture over my 75g and my plants are telling me that I don't have high lights. The Sunset Hygro grew tall with big leaves not very pink despite iron fertilization.
I get my ferts from Second Nature Hydroponics. All macro (KNO3, K2SO4,KH2PO4, Ca(NO3)2 for about $5 a pound


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

how high is your tank? I have standard 29 gallon with 26watt CFL light and I can get sunset to show pink. I have only have soil and no iron supplement


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

It's a standard 75g. 21'' high I guess. Flourite red as substrate. I also have java fern in that tank and the leaves are not turning transparent as if in high light.
As for the trace, I tried "chelated mix" from Hydroponics. They sell it in 1/2 pound jar packed from a larger Plant-Prod container. I probably overdose it a bit but my MTS did not appreciate it at all. I found all my snails on the glass few hours after I dose the trace. I did an emergency water change and all fish were OK. However, the first few leaves on the amazon sword came twisted, small with big holes or missing parts. I use very little trace from that container and I am looking at other sources.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Aniroc, how do you mix those four basic macros ? Or should I be looking on Tom Barr's site ? I want to make a liquid I can dose with from the basics. I already have trace minerals. The others I will be getting from Second Nature.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

I use PPS-Pro formula:
In 1 liter bottle I measure (I use a scale)
59 grams K2SO4
65 grams KNO3
6 grams KH2PO4
41 grams MgSO4
Fill with distilled water. Shake. Let sit overnight.
Dose 1 ml per ten gallon of tank size. Dose prior to lights turning on.

I dose 3 times a week macro, twice a week- micro.
Avoid mixing macro and micro when concentrated because iron from micro precipitates with phosphate from macro.
I have a tank that's overstock and nitrates are high. I have another solution for that tank: K2SO4 and iron.
As for the trace, PPS-Pro says: 80 grams in 1 liter distilled water. Dose 1 ml per 10 gallon of tank water. I add some Excel in that bottle to prevent fungus


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks, appreciate that.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

Where did you get your traces from, Fishfur?
Are they "chelated"?


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## colio (Dec 8, 2012)

The issue I have now is that I want to dose trace (and others), but plan to keep some shrimp in the tank. So I need to avoid copper. It looks like most trace has copper in it, I am not sure (I haven't done a lot of looking yet, but will as soon as I get back from Montreal). 

Any ideas on ow much copper is OK, f any at all?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

My tanks are relatively overstocked too, but less than they were, sadly. I was away for so long with my mother's illness that I lost not only a lot of plants but livestock too. Nothing to be done about it, just replacing things as I can. 

I got the trace mix from Darkblade.. I honestly don't know if it is chelated, I would not have known at the time to even ask the question. But he's a really good guy who really knows his stuff, so I'd think it must be decent quality.

I got it some time ago, late last year. I planned to dose it intermittently with the supply of Flourish I had on hand, rather than buy the Flourish trace. But family matters intervened and I didn't have a chance to do that. Now my Mom has passed on, and though I miss her terribly, I won't be getting called away as I was when she was ill.

Now the Flourish and other premixed ferts have run out, I'll be mixing all my own, as it is so much cheaper that way, so I figured to use the trace I already have.

Going to get some yeast bottles running and then hopefully I will see the kind of growth I am hoping for in the 30G tanks. The smaller tanks have done very well using Excel, and are too small, I think, for yeast bottles. 

A 5G and one about 8G with the floating frogs and a few shrimp. But the two 30's have mainly grown tons of guppy grass and vals, and some mosses. I have just acquired quite a lot of new cuttings and a lovely big mat of hair grass in the past few days, so I must get things set up so they don't suffer. There is only so much room in the smaller tanks, these new ones can't stay in them for long.

Only other thing I'll need is that stuff to put in the drop checker, bromothymol, I think ? Be a busy weekend, for sure. Planting the hair grass alone is going take ages.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

Fishfur: I am sorry to hear about your mom passing.
The indicator in the drop checker is the solution in API or Hagen low range pH indicator.
As for the copper content in trace mix it's confusing.
Plant-Prod claims 0.1% copper in dry form. It is actual copper, elemental, not the entire salt, because if you are adding all up , including the chelating agents (EDTA and DTPA), you get 65%. The rest, must be the anions (sulfate, carbonate, chloride, etc).
In Flourish Trace, copper is 0.0032% in solution. In a dry form, I would assume to be 0.32%.
Flourish comprehensive has very little macros (NPK), but more boron and other trace than Flourish trace and less copper. Also it has iron (Flourish Trace has no iron).
I don't know how much copper is safe for shrimp.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

you can do yeast with small tanks to, you just cut down on the amount of yeast used and don't need a big bottle. The amount of yeast is the main controller of how many bubbles per second and the sugar is just what the yeast eats.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Thanks for that pyrrolin, I'd thought it was just more trouble than it was worth for the little tanks. But maybe not.

Aniroc, thank you for the kind words, and for the info regarding the drop checker fluid. I have that on hand.

But the chemical analysis, while appreciated, is a bit over my head. I really do wish I'd paid more attention in chem class ! I also do not know exactly how much copper or in what form, is toxic to shrimp and other inverts. But I have many inverts so I don't want to get the copper wrong, for sure.

I know that copper piping does not cause a problem, and certainly some copper must enter the water if you have copper piping. It is either not enough to be troublesome, or not in a form that is troublesome. Copper supplements in fish foods are not toxic either, unless perhaps they are present in unusually high levels. I've not seen that in any food I've run across so far.

But some forms of copper are a serious problem for inverts. For example, Coppersafe, is a commercial Ich treatment, with the active ingredient being chelated copper sulfate. According to the label, it is safe for fish because the copper IS chelated. It's toxic to the parasite, which is far more sensitive to the copper than the fish are, which is why it works. The label clearly states it is unsafe for inverts, and unsafe for many plants as well.

Dosed according to the label for ich treatment, it gives you a copper level of 1.5 ppm to 2.0 ppm. Would a trace mix have enough of the right or more probably, wrong, sort of copper to get too close to this toxic level ?

My understanding of chelation is that is supposed to make certain nutrients more available to the plants than they would be without chelation. [Chelation is also used as a treatment to remove toxins from animals and humans, in particular,heavy metals such as lead].

If I'm incorrect about what chelation's purpose is in ferts, please enlighten me.

Since I have run out, I'm not using Flourish Comp any more. I was also using a pond fertilizer I was given with some plants, I think it was made by API. Had iron in it, meant mainly for water lilies, but it worked reasonably well, considering what it was.

I never did get around to using the trace mix I got from Darkblade. In fact, 'til I get back to Second Nature, I'm not dosing anything at the moment, which hopefully won't cause any problems for a short term.

I was going to go today, but I ran out of time. Don't know if they are open Sundays or not, but I'll get the jars of ferts asap and start dosing again when I have them mixed up. Fortunately I have an extremely accurate and sensitive scale to measure with. Darn thing registers a change if you breathe on it !

I'll ask Darkblade just what that trace mix has in it.


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