# Dutch Style Tank (45+ species)



## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

I've been getting ready for the arrival of a 250G tall tank which I'm planning to use for some discus, schooling fish, and plants.

In the meantime I have a 70G tank that I am using to test all the different systems I am going to put into the tank - UV sterilizer, CO2 diffuser, drip system etc. To get the plants going well, and decide on some species with first hand experience, I got a whole wack of plants from the forums and planted the tank. Added a cleaner crew and a school of raspboras to go with some rosy barbs I had been keeping for the last 2 years from the remnants of a once mighty low light low tech tank with bronze crypts and java fern.

Fish list as far as I can remember is:

4 peppered cories
5 panda cories
2 bronze cories
5 ottos
3 siamese algae eaters
3 flying fox
1 BN pleco
1 golden pleco
13 harlequin rasboras
4 rosy barbs
3 american flag fish
3 currently unknown hitch-hiker fry

Some specs and what not:

Volume: 70G

2 HOB filters, UV powerhead w/ DIY spraybar

5x DIY CO2 diffused through powerheads or filters 24hr + 1/2 BPS pressurized CO2 on for 10hr

160W T5HO with split Giesmann midday/aquaflora + Tek reflectors on for 10hr

Zebra rock + driftwood hardscape

Two layer substrate with PFS on top with root tabs seperated from bottom layer of mulm+gravel+sand + root tab by window screen.

Plant Gro NPK, Plant Gro Iron, Flourish and Flourish Tabs for ferts

Here's the tank 9 days into first big planting:










and after first trim:










Got a bit of green algae spots on the front glass and had a decent size Anubias Nana rhizome melt away for unknown reasons but the stems are growing well, and the rest of the crypts, swords, foreground and mosses are pearling after 3-4hrs of lights on so things seem to be growing well. Hopefully stays this way...

The trimmings are available for shipping cost only but have been floating since Friday.

Critique and comments welcome.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

*hey*

that was my post on apc by the way (by apm) i had to change my name bc they booted my account bc I talked crap to the mod... he was totally powertripping though lol. anyways.. awesome setup... cant wait to see the big guy. keep us updated. Ill post my new pics of my 75 today hopefully.


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for comments. Unfortunately there has been a BBA outbreak that I first noticed yesterday. I'm pretty sure root cause is transitioning from DIY CO2 to pressurized and I did not increase BPS on my pressurized system enough to compensate for DIY petering out. I am using ceramic diffuser on 70G and I'm wondering if this is enough, thinking about using my UV sterilizer as a reactor to increase CO2 concentration in water. Probably switch tonight, clean drop checker and keep an eye on it.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

*hey*

yup thats what I do.. I made a diy external heater then conected to a uv sterl. I pump it into the heater and by the time it gets around the uv and out through the glass output, its broken up pretty nicely. I still get a bit of larger bubbles, but it seems to drop my ph faster than the ADA ceramic, plus its one less equipment in the tank. Do you have a drop checker? If not, just pump it up to about 3-4 bubbles per sec for 2 hours.. and watch for fish breathing hard. If no issues then pump it up 1 more. I would opt for a drop checker though.


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Yeah got DC going, but need to change fluid I think too. How long do you keep yours before changing the fluids?

It's green now, but not lime-ish as it should be. Am going to change the line into the UV sterilizer now. Will see how things go.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Looks awesome! A tank like this makes me look at FW again, but no I'm not adding more FW tanks.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

*hey*

I find it best when its lighter green as long as the fish aint gulping for air. I turn the co2 and uv off at night as well by the way, on a timer.

here is a pic of my input of my co2.. u might as well put it directly into the proximal end of the tubing. I just inserted a plastic double ended piece from any aquatic store, then stick the tubing to it. If you want to plug it, get a piece of short tubing, seal it with silicone or super glue or whatever and plug it.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

man that tank is gonna be sick.. take some good pics and journal of it. I will def set something up that big as soon as I get settle with my practice (sports chiropractor). Im excited to see that tank. Whats the light light?


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

The journal is a project in itself. Already have documented 3 DIY systems that I had to install before I drywalled my basement but I am waiting to post them until the journal for that tank starts. Can't wait....if the timing works out that I am starting up the plants when you arrive back for the lawn mowing, I think we could work something out for your trimming.


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Did a slight rescape earlier. Charging the camera battery now...posting soon.


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Added 5 harlequin raspboras to the school but one had a suspect dot or 2 on him so he got moved to the 10G shrimp tank.

Added 3 panda corys....these guys are great. Favourite fish in the tank by far right now.

Moved the red val. to the left side with the driftwood. Hoping to create a stringly leave path from the crypts up to the val and other grass plant (can't remember species, to lazy to look up) but right now looks like crap there.

Moved the red rubin sword up to the middle and trimmed everything green from it. Moved rotala wallichi (I think) from left side to right where the sword and red val. were originally. Trimmed it in half as well so see if the new digs treat it as well as it has been going so far.

Had a breakout of BBA that I first noticed yesterday. Believe it is my DIY CO2 petering out. Have pressurized but was running low BPS because of 6x DIY CO2. Now have CO2 going 3bps through a UV powerhead for diffusion. Hopefully this works out and the BBA growth is stopped, then I can attack with Excel.

Other than BBA everything is going and growing well. The right side will be trimmed this weekend likely. Anyone wanting these stems some will be available at shipping cost only.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

looking good, is that L aromatica on the right? or ludwiga cuba? What are your plans for lighting for the 200? I would go with halides and maybe t5s on the side.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

very nice set up. i love this style of planting


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

I think Ludwiga cuba but aromatica is in there too, just think it isn't as visible.

For lighting going with 480W of T5HO + moonlighting. 

Thanks for comments...hopefully will grow in nicely over the next week if I can get my CO2 situation sorted out.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

What fixture are you looking at for the T5's?

I hear bow valley does pretty decent work. How did the quotes from Miracles or Aquarium Obsessed compare?


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Already have the Sunlight Supply ready fit 2X 80W (3 of them) with 4 Giesmann midday and 2 giesman aquaflora. Have 6 Tek II reflectors to go with them too.

Miracles was almost double, didn't get one from aquarium obsessed as far as I know but BV was $500 cheaper than my best quote.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

*lights*

480 is good, but imagine the pearling with 3x250halides .. yeahhh http://www.fishneedit.com/metal-halide.html

just throwing it out there ... lol and maybe some t5s and moonlight too


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

MH are old technology - T5HO is the way to go. More efficient, way better and uniform spread, more bulb choices, way less heat.

Also, you're looking at 750w just to somewhat evenly cover 5 feet. Whereas the T5s evenly cover the whole expanse, side to side and front to back. 

Get with the times


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

*whaaa*

hahha i totally disagree.. check out all amanos scapes man, all halides HQI at 8000-10k spectrum(to get more shimmer). Awesome technology! I have never had growth like halide growth man, I promise you. I have had compacts, then t5s HO with about the same wattage over my 75g right before i got the 2x150s and what a difference it made. Much better growth and pearling. Only diff is that I prefer the T5 colour choices, you dont get as much good blending of bulbs with halides.

I smell debate war brewing =p


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

There is no debate or war. T5HO is the way. This conversation is over.

No really, what bulbs/reflectors/ballasts/cooling were you using on your tank when you had T5s? There's no way you had a half-decent T5HO set up putting out ~300W (6 54w bulbs) and had worse pearling. It's pretty well fact now that T5s are just as good as if not better than MH for lighting up tanks. Shimmer may be something T5s lack, but MHs lack just about everything else 

Consigliere, look into active cooling for your bulbs. You can achieve a significant increase in PAR with the bulbs at their optimal operating temperature vs no active cooling.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

so u just admitted that its almost up to par and not quite...and why would heating be a issue if its open top tank, my pendents dont have fans either.. I dont doubt T5 are great and I would have add 2 sets to mine on each side if i had the money, but if you have worked with all the different types of lighting, you would know this is way better .. but not for the money obviously. Theres a reason why the world most well known aquascaper only uses this lighting.


my old setup was nova extreme 4x54 plus another glolight 54x2, I got pearling , but nothing like this.. my tank is bubbling from everywhere. I will put up a vid of it pearling. its crazy.

What tanks and specs are you running plecs


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

jimmyjam said:


> so u just admitted that its almost up to par and not quite...


Ok. T5HO are superior to MH. There I said it.



jimmyjam said:


> Why would heating be a issue if its open top tank, my pendents dont have fans either..


Have you ever checked your temperature when the lights are on vs off? You probably have pretty large temp swings. Also, open top of not, Halides throw out way more heat than T5s - T5s, you'd be lucky to get a 2 - 3F increase. Don't think anyone can say the same for MHs.



jimmyjam said:


> I dont doubt T5 are great and I would have add 2 sets to mine on each side if i had the money, but if you have worked with all the different types of lighting, you would know this is way better .. but not for the money obviously. Theres a reason why the world most well known aquascaper only uses this lighting.


Sorry, T5s are the way. A lot of old guys like what they like and wouldn't change the world for it.



jimmyjam said:


> my old setup was nova extreme 4x54 plus another glolight 54x2, I got pearling , but nothing like this.. my tank is bubbling from everywhere. I will put up a vid of it pearling. its crazy.


The single reflector on the Nova fixture is slightly better than a flat sheet of aluminum. The hagen units' reflectors aren't exactly the greatest either. To have a decent T5HO set up, you really need to have good quality reflectors.

On my old pressurized set-up (20 high), I used a simple 65w PC. Did the job. 
However, on a fourthcoming reef tank, instead of using 2x 250w MHs, I'll be using an ATI sunpower 6x54w T5HO unit, which will outshine the MH any day of the week


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

Ahhh so u havent even tried halides, So all you have tried is pc with plants. .. so how can u even compareÉ Your just basing your knowledge on forum he say she say, which most forums debate to death on this topic. So this will be the last post on the subject unless someone else wants to start a topic on it.. lol 

Considering he already got the lights, I give up.

I have checked diff in temp, its about 3 degrees. my diy external heater doesa good job at night. stays around 26. 

Have you tried, spiral bulbsÉ I have been using triple ones for my 20 gallons using ex terra top, they work pretty decent, but i read a new article that shows that side lyeing positiong for spirals reduces wattage significantly.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Nope, don't even have to try halides. I've seen them in action over enough tanks to know that they aren't what I look for in a system. They're hot, inefficient and old technology. I have tried most others though (T5NO, PC, CF, T8, T12, LED)

Anyways, yes, he's made his choice of lighting. And it's T5HO!!

Sorry, had to do that.

Never tried spirals, cause I've always been a T5 kind of guy. I use T5 NOs for my low tech set up. As for the decrease in wattage? I doubt it - with the usage of a proper reflector you shouldn't lose any of the efficiency of the bulb. It's probably just a matter of loss of the light coming from half the bulb when you've got it in a non-reflective housing on it's side vs from straight on.

Anyways, back on topic.

What other equipment will you be running in the new tank? Automated dosing?


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Ameek is right, i've already made the investment in T5HO....for better or worse. Have an active cooling system installed for the display tank, have a drive cabinet fan + inline dryer fan hooked up to where the display tank will be to ventilate the canopy to outside the house. Installed and working, just need to get the rest up. Will post a journal on a few forums of the entire process, part of which is done but is pretty boring with no tank.

Had another trim tonight, trimmings may already be spoken for. Will post some pics soon. 

As for the display tank, the plan is going to be to have autodosing via peristaltic pumps hooked up to a PLC. One hour before lights on dosing starts and small tops ups during the day. The display is plumbed for auto drip and autowater change via sump pump w/ float switch. DIY CO2 reactor on one of two return loops, DIY spray bar in tank. Planted shrimp refugium in sump, 35G quarantine/discus grow out in sump with UV sterilizer, + mechanical & bio filtration chambers.

Eventually all of this will be journaled. I have most of the stuff now and have tested to make sure it will work as planned but I'm sure the plan will change at some point.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

What peristaltic dosing pumps are you going with? Controller you'll be using?


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Medidose or something like that is pretty common to find on ebay so I will probably go with a well reviewed ebay available pump. Haven't got this part of the setup worked out yet. Don't mind learning the ropes of dosing by hand but it will get old quickly I think once I have it figured out.

Controller will be a spare PLC my dad has lying around...so DIY controller I guess. Crossing my fingers a bit on that one.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

*yo*

diy auto dosing... very ballsy.. i like it ... let me know how that goes bud. One thing I do recommend is doing that a few months in to the scape when things are fully cycled, and just sucking up nutrients. So now until then, you have lots of time to figure it out.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

check threads on reefing webstes as they are full of DIY peristaltic dosing machines and controllers.

For me, with my lack of DIY electrical ability I just bought a doser:


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Which model did you end up going with?


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Been a bit over a week and the tank has had a bit of a downturn. A bit of BBA managed to root itself onto the slow growers when I was transitioning from DIY to pressurized CO2. I have the CO2 situation sorted out now. Also, had a bid of hair algae and GDA break out due to some nutrient deficiencies with the higher CO2. Still working on fine tuning the fert cycle but I think I have it down now. Spot dosed about 70-80mL of peroxide to some the algae as well with the filters off. Started the powerhead after an hour or 2 and then the filters 12 hrs later. Made figure 50-75% water change between the time the powerhead turned on and the pumps turned on. Definitely did a job on some of the algae, but now the plants aren't pearling nearly as much. Repeated this for 2 days and shortened photo period from 10 hrs to 7hrs. Added 12 ghost shrimp and 3 yamato shrimp also as the war waged against algae is being stepped up.

Did some trimming of algaed up leaves. Moved a few things around. Swapped out the small zebra rock on the right for a bit bigger one as the stems were just about making the old one invisible. Will be doing a trim Monday night. Cuttings will be available to Canadians...send PM.










Also, looked up the barbs, they are actually goldens.


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Have you tried a 72hr blackout? That has helped me in the past when I used to have a planted tank. Just be sure it is totally covered with an airstone pumping out O2 and co2 off. I did have a few weaker plants die on me but it helped cut back alot of algae. Just a thought...


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## shark (Jan 28, 2009)

Looks really nice


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## Consigliere (Jun 11, 2009)

Thanks for the comments. As for the algae, most of the issues seem to be behind me. The corrective actions taken were:

1) Increase fert dosing to match with high CO2 and high light. When I originally had lower CO2 the ferts didn't seem to be an issue.
2) Lowered photo period from 12hrs to 7hrs. 
3) Did spot treatments of peroxide for 2 nights followed by massive water changes. Trimmed all visible BBA out of the tank.

Hopefully this is a sustainable improvement but only time will tell. I think #1 and #2 were the real tricks to getting the aquarium balanced. Will slowly start increasing the photoperiod once I convince myself the fert dosing is right.


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

12hrs  

That's too long in my opinion. I used to have my lights on for 6hrs. But sounds like you've taken the proper measures to combat algae. 

You just have to always remember, do everything possible for your plants to thrive so they can out-compete algae. 

Goodluck with your tank! Give us more updates!


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