# Medical doctors and where they were trained



## WateraDrop (Nov 16, 2008)

Hi everyone. I'd like to ask for the thoughts of this community on a rather interesting topic.

I graduated from UofT recently and I'm working on my PhD now. Being in the life sciences for the past four years, I met a lot of people who wanted to go the med route and go for their MDs. VERY FEW of them succeeded in getting into a Canadian medical school (one of them got into UofT's med program). A lot of the others opted for international schooling. I know one who went to Poland, another who went to Ireland, and a bunch who went to the Caribbean.

Now, here is where I want to open the discussion -- say you are a patient looking for a doctor and in the bunch that you can choose from, you know all of their backgrounds re: their education and whatnot. Would where they received the MD affect your decision? Now obviously there is the residency and whatnot that go into affecting the capabilities of a doctor, as well as weeding people out. Nonetheless, tell me your thoughts.

My reason for asking about this is because some of the people who went to the Caribbean for medical school actually should not be doctors. Some of them were poor students and wouldn't have grades to get into any Canadian or American school or European school, some of them should not be allowed in the healthcare profession due to social habits (one of them had a history of domestic assault), and a variety of other things. Certainly, these factors might not discredit ones ability to practice medicine, but again, do give me your thoughts on this topic.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I think being a good doctor is not about grades, it's about experience and attitude.

Getting a degree is one thing, actually becoming a doctor is quite another. I'm sure you are aware of the giant hurdles that immigrants who were doctors in their country face when they want to practice here.

Domestic assault is a personal and legal issue. It's irrelevant to one's choice of profession.


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## WateraDrop (Nov 16, 2008)

solarz said:


> I think being a good doctor is not about grades, it's about experience and attitude.
> 
> Getting a degree is one thing, actually becoming a doctor is quite another. I'm sure you are aware of the giant hurdles that immigrants who were doctors in their country face when they want to practice here.
> 
> Domestic assault is a personal and legal issue. It's irrelevant to one's choice of profession.


Sure domestic assault is irrelevant to "choice of profession", but would you want an individual that had such a history to be practicing? I think it's highly relevant especially when it comes to healthcare professions.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

WateraDrop said:


> Sure domestic assault is irrelevant to "choice of profession", but would you want an individual that had such a history to be practicing? I think it's highly relevant especially when it comes to healthcare professions.


As long as he's doing his job competently, how would you know either way? There's a reason we have laws preventing employers from asking these kinds of questions.


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## WateraDrop (Nov 16, 2008)

solarz said:


> As long as he's doing his job competently, how would you know either way? There's a reason we have laws preventing employers from asking these kinds of questions.


I suppose I'm looking at it from the admissions point. The Caribbean schools don't seem to be as picky. People who have been violent in the past are likely to offend again. If the Caribbean schools aren't properly filtering people out who are not cut out for the job like a North American school might be (such as UofT), then aren't you exposing people to risk in the future when this person is practicing?

On the end of employers asking these questions -- the person I'm talking about was convicted, so it's surprising to me that they were admitted in the first place.

I guess to clarify my question in the first post: would you choose a doctor who got his MD in the States or the Caribbean or would that not matter to you?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

WateraDrop said:


> I guess to clarify my question in the first post: would you choose a doctor who got his MD in the States or the Caribbean or would that not matter to you?


My mom was a doctor in China. I had a childhood friend whose family came from Romania. His mom was a doctor in Romania.

My mom did not try to pursue a career in medicine once we came to Canada. She felt that her English skills were insufficient to pass the required tests. My friend's mom decided to pursue the medicine path. She stayed home studying and taking exams for 10 years before getting a residency in the States.

So from what I know of the requirements needed for foreign-trained doctors to practice in North America, I think anyone who can pass those requirements is qualify to practice medicine in Canada, regardless of where they were educated.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

I understand that the requirements for entry at the west indies schools may be lower than here, but there are doctors trained right here that should not be practicing. 

In these parts, we often give weight to academic credentials over how a person practices. The doctor who did all those child autopsies, and sent a ton o' innocent parents to jail....I bet he wasn't a graduate of the Caribbean Med schools. Jacques Roy, the Canadian doctor charged with the massive fraud in the US. I don't think he was a grad from some third world country med school either. I guess what I am trying to say is, there are good practicing doctors and bad practicing doctors regardless of what system they are a product of. 

I personally, would go more with how the doctor behaves, rather than what school is heralded on the paper framed to the wall behind him. Then again, I don't know if I'd be biased if it came to something "vital" like heart surgery or eye surgery. I can't honestly answer, coz I have not been there.


Al


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

Let just say that is why there are so many malpractice in the USA.

Most Caribbean medical schools have their clinical training in the USA so it's easy for them to practice in the USA but if anyone wants to come back and practice in Canada... all I have to say is good luck. Out of all the specialty... IMG only get 1 to 2 spots as compare to canadian grads.

As for people you think that shouldn't be in med school or become a doctor... well that's just personal opinion. Your grades on a piece of paper just gets you into the interview. It's your personality that wins it over. They spoon feed you in med school and everything is pass/fail.

I do agree not every single doctor you see seems qualified to be one, but where they lack in one area they might excel in other areas.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Fish_Man said:


> Let just say that is why there are so many malpractice in the USA.


Check out this article:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece



article said:


> In 2007, Canadian doctors were hit with 928 legal actions, a 17 percent drop from 2003. Only about 100 cases a year go to trial.
> 
> One reason: Canadian law firms, unlike U.S. firms, often require plaintiffs to pay for an initial investigation to determine whether the claim has merit. That cost discourages many people from pursuing a lawsuit.
> 
> Another deterrent, plaintiffs' attorneys say, is that the Canadian Medical Protective Association is aggressive in defending its members because it is in the unique position of insuring virtually all of the country's 76,000 or so doctors.


Sounds like most Canadian victims of medical malpractice simply can't afford to launch malpractice suits. This is not exactly a good thing.


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## characinfan (Dec 24, 2008)

Put it this way. . . if you are going to practice as an MD or specialist in Canada, you have to be accredited in Canada. There aren't a lot of spaces in Canadian med schools and I welcome all doctors who come here, no matter where they got their initial training.

Some schools in other places (and some here, e.g. McMaster) realize that grades aren't everything; without a decent bedside manner and an open mind, doctors can't perform well a lot of the time because patients don't always know what's wrong with themselves or can't explain it or are embarrassed to explain themselves. A former classmate of mine who couldn't reason her way out of a paper bag and has no clue about social cues but who was great at memorizing stuff got into med school at U of T based on her grades -- I feel bad for whoever becomes her patient. On the other hand, I have had some great doctors trained in other countries, including Iran, France, China, and the Caribbean. Motivated people can come from anywhere, and people who have had poor grades due to social reasons or immaturity (or language barriers, etc.) can, in fact, make great doctors in many cases.

As to the guy with the domestic assault charge, he may have learned from his experience and changed. Frankly I would rather have a doctor who is astute and caring with his patients even if his personal life is/was a mess (so long as it's not drugs) than someone like my former classmate who just doesn't get it.

A former zebra.


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

It's true not everyone can afford a lawyer for a lawsuit that usually last for a few years.

I mean it's like any profession, there are the good and the bad bunch... as long as you have more of the good people then we're good. 

So to answer the question " would you choose a doctor who got his MD in the States or the Caribbean or would that not matter to you?"

It wouldn't matter to me....


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