# Starfire Vs Acrylic???



## bigfishy

Which is better? 

Starfire glass?

oR

Acrylic?

IF they cost the same...


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## Darkblade48

If the cost was the same? Starfire glass, without a doubt.


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## ameekplec.

Well, not really - it depends on the application you're putting the tank in.

Acrylic is absolutely clear - clearer than even Starphire glass, but it scratches easier (but is fairly easily repairable, unlike glass). Also, if you have kids that might toss stuff at a large pane of glass, I'd be inclined to go with the more durable acrylic.

Although, starphire is sexier...


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## BillD

If you want a tank without a reinforcing rim, acrylic is out.


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## Zebrapl3co

I'll take starfire over acrylic any day. Even if they are more expensive. Over time, your starfire will look just as great, but acrylic will scratch easily. Heck if you have snail, even the snails can scratch up your acrylic when they feed on the algae that grows on the acrylic. And if your acrylic should turn yellow ... (it might take a while, but it will change).

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## gucci17

I'm on the starfire boat as well. Although I do love how acrylic is so much lighter and can be moved around easily. Two guys can handle a 220gal acrylic tank. 

There's pros and cons to both types but like ameek said, it depends on the intended application.


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## Big Ray

now how about Starfire and regular glass ? 

can you actually (with human eye) see the difference ? or is it mostly for photography ? 

the DT in SUM is starfire on front and reg. on sides, and I really cant tell the difference lol but I also have problems reading API color charts


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## ameekplec.

Yep, you can see the difference  That's why I decided to order my tank with starphire and not regular glass - after seeing a few larger tanks (with glass >1/2"), I decided that Starphire was worth the extra expense. It cost about +$20/sqft, so it made my tank about 20% more expensive.


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## TBemba

But is the difference really that noticeable? 

If tanks are side by side maybe yes

but after you have it in your home really?

I say this because I have been in Electronic sections and have seen several HD TV sets and you can really notice the difference in quality and clarity side by side from one set to the other. But after you take it home and hook it up you have nothing to compare your HD with so it looks great no matter what. 

So same thing with Tanks.

IMO it's a status symbol like WC fish


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## Aquatic Designs

Cell cast acrylic which all acrylic aquarium manufacturers use, does not yellow. 

Acrylic is 50% less weight. 

Acrylic is much much clearer and yes you can tell the difference. Acrylic has near zero refraction, where glass has like 30% or more.

Starfire glass is only made up to 1/2". And is not as strong as regular glass. Anything thicker is laminated( more then one piece glued together). Adding more refraction and it will discolour over time.

Acrylic is 17 times stronger then glass.

And yes the only pro glass has over acrylic is that it doesn't scratch as easy. But unlike glass it is very easy to buff out scratches. Btw, starfire scratches easier then regular glass. How much easier. Well let's just say that acrylic you can buff them out. Starfire glass, your stuck with it.

Lastly. If you bought a mercedes and it was your pride and joy. Your show car. Would you park it in front of no frills on a sunday? I bet not. So your not going to take a razor blade to it. Or treat it like a glass tank. Your going to take care of it like it was an acrylic tank. Your going to baby it. Keep the kids away from it. 

I have had and own several acrylic tanks. And had several glass ones too. I would never buy a glass tank new. They are not worth the money. And you have to have owned an acrylic tank to understand why.


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## TBemba

Aquatic Designs said:


> Lastly. If you bought a mercedes and it was your pride and joy. Your show car. Would you park it in front of no frills on a sunday? I bet not.


Not sure what you mean by this


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## Zulfian

people with benz dont do groceries..


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## Big Ray

ameekplec. said:


> Yep, you can see the difference  That's why I decided to order my tank with starphire and not regular glass - after seeing a few larger tanks (with glass >1/2"), I decided that Starphire was worth the extra expense. It cost about +$20/sqft, so it made my tank about 20% more expensive.


yea, Im stuck at that lol, cant decide if the extra 20% is worth it


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## gucci17

Big Ray said:


> yea, Im stuck at that lol, cant decide if the extra 20% is worth it


I say if you got the cash go for it. If not, it's not going to kill you to have a regular tank like 90% of the fish keepers out there.


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## ameekplec.

gucci17 said:


> I say if you got the cash go for it. If not, it's not going to kill you to have a regular tank like 90% of the fish keepers out there.


+1. For me, I know this tank is the only (big  ) one I'll be buying in the next 4 - 5 years, or maybe even longer, and I had the cash to get the upgrade too.


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## Big Ray

ea, I'm going for a 5 foot long tank, which is gonna be centre of my living room so I guess I Can get the front starfire at least.

1 thing I learned from my current tank is to think it true and get the best LOL not that easy changing up the tank down the road.


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## bigfishy

ameekplec. said:


> +1. For me, I know this tank is the only (big  ) one I'll be buying in the next 4 - 5 years, or maybe even longer, and I had the cash to get the upgrade too.


Money is not an issue, just no time! ~~

Wish you can buy time... I would like an additional 5 hours per day!


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## qwerty

Personally, especially if this was a large tank, I'd probably go for the acrylic...

They can make the acrylic scratch resistant, and any scratches it picks up can be buffed out easily... Also, you wont have to worry about your tank cracking.

It's lighter.

It's clearer.

It's more durable.

Scratches wont be a problem if you get it made scratch resistant and have a good buffing system.

I see no reason to go with the glass.


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## Aquatic Designs

How can they make an acrylic aquarium scratch resistant? Annealing?


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## qwerty

I believe it's a coating they put over the acrylic. I don't know what it's called and I don't have an acrylic tank myself. But I've spoken to people who've had this done on massive tanks, and they say they would absolutely chose acrylic over anything else hands down, and I trust their judgement on this.

They can apparently buff scratches out even with this coating on.

So I would look into this a little more, definitely.


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## Aquatic Designs

I have only heard of Annealing to make acrylic more scratch resistant. And no one I have ever talked to has been able to make an acrylic aquarium that won't turn into a lump of acrylic in the process. It can only be done on flat sheets. 

We are talking Cell cast acrylic, right? That's the only stuff acrylic aquariums should be made out of.

And yes. Most, if not all acrylic tank owners love their tanks.


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## gucci17

I've never heard of scratch resistant acrylic tanks either....

I do love how light acrylic tanks are and the clarity. I always have that concern about how easy it scratches though. But I suppose you would learn to be extra careful around it.


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## Aquatic Designs

I've owned 1 of my acrylic tanks for about 10 years. It looks better then any glass tank I owned for a few years. Thay don't scratch as easy as people make them out to be.


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## qwerty

I'll ask about it next time I get a chance and let you know... I'll try to get a company referral as well if I can.


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## gucci17

qwerty said:


> I'll ask about it next time I get a chance and let you know... I'll try to get a company referral as well if I can.


I would appreciate it! Thanks


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## Chris S

Aquatic Designs said:


> I've owned 1 of my acrylic tanks for about 10 years. It looks better then any glass tank I owned for a few years. Thay don't scratch as easy as people make them out to be.


You know, if I was convinced I would be patient and do things to the TEE, I would agree that acrylic is the better choice.

However, having a degree of experience in servicing tanks that are acrylic - scratches are a problem, whether you are careful or not, stuff happens and they scratch. We've taken over some clients where the acrylic tanks are just brutally scratched. I've scratched a few on my own too, so I know that repairing them is not as easy as some may think!

While they are repairable as mentioned, buffing them out is again, brutal. Not fun. Buffing out outside scratches are ok, but inside ones take a lot of hard work if you don't want to empty the damn things.


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## Aquatic Designs

I called both my acrylic suppliers today and asked if they have any way of making acrylic more scratch resistant. They both basically gave me the same answer. Your talking about the optical eye glass business. 

There is no coating you can apply. 

Only annealing will make it more scratch resistant. And you can only do it to full, flat sheets. You cannot do it on an aquarium without destroying it.


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## kev416

Aquatic Designs said:


> I called both my acrylic suppliers today and asked if they have any way of making acrylic more scratch resistant. They both basically gave me the same answer. Your talking about the optical eye glass business.
> 
> There is no coating you can apply.
> 
> Only annealing will make it more scratch resistant. And you can only do it to full, flat sheets. You cannot do it on an aquarium without destroying it.


Annealing is done after an acrylic product is made. It is done to remove the stresses added to a product by the machining process of assembly. It's the finished machined edges that requires annealing. Most acrylic aquarium manufacturers will not anneal. They don't have big enough ovens. Then again most acrylic aquarium manufacturers won't do a two part polymerizable joint (Weld-on 40) on large tanks. They choose to use a solvent (Weld-on 4) butt joint. Check for crazing. If you see it... you know it wasn't annealed.


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## Kweli

Does starfire or acrylic fix the dizziness I get when i try to view things at an angle in my glass tank?

Not sure how to explain it, but things get blurry when looking at things a certain way


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## gucci17

Kweli said:


> Does starfire or acrylic fix the dizziness I get when i try to view things at an angle in my glass tank?
> 
> Not sure how to explain it, but things get blurry when looking at things a certain way


Are you talking about rounded edges? If so, no I don't think anything can change that.


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## Aquatic Designs

How can you heat an acrylic box to the point it is soft and it retain it's shape? I have been told it is not done to aquariums cause it will wreck it. Not because oven's are not big enough.


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## CanadaPleco

I like the idea of acrylic, but will never own one because of my huge plecos. Which is why I have starfire. Its great.


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## kev416

Aquatic Designs said:


> How can you heat an acrylic box to the point it is soft and it retain it's shape? I have been told it is not done to aquariums cause it will wreck it. Not because oven's are not big enough.


What makes you assume heat can't be controlled? A small fabricator won't have a big enough oven. A large scale manufacturer will have an oven large enough to fit a car into it. Digital controls for heating and cooling, as well as air flow. How else can you drape form a bullnose to make a custom commercial aquarium with rounded ends? You have to roll the entire flat sheet into the oven to thermoform it. Annealing is a process of heating and cooling. Not melting. The main reason many choose not to anneal, even if they own a large enough oven, is for the same reason you can't make money making aquariums for the most part. It's all about price point, it adds too much to the cost.

Back to the thread: Unless there's a need for a lighter large scale aquarium or a custom project requiring thermoforming... I'd choose glass. Starfire would be my choice for any standard reef tank. If it was a freshwater tank, I'd purchase regular glass.


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## Aquatic Designs

I would pay whatever the cost to have my tanks annealed. No one would do it. They said it would warp the acrylic. My understanding is they heat until it is softened and then let it cool slowly. Like tempering glass. 

Even Tenecor does not anneal their tanks. And they should have there own oven big enough to do it. Which for them would add almost nothing to the process other then electricity costs. And it would put them ahead of their competitors. But they don't. If it was as simple as you discribe, it would be a no brainer for them. 

If you know of a fabricator that has an oven in the GTA large enough for a car. Please let me know. I would like to see if they would anneal my tanks.


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## wtac

AD, any place that has a computer controlled oven will anneal that aquarium for you, but they might not guarantee/take responsibility if anything goes wrong in the process as it's not a regular process for the company . 

All you can do is give them the temperature/time profile/graph for the thickness of acrylic and see what they say. For example, to anneal 1/2" acrylic, it takes a total of 9hrs @max temp of 80*C.

It's not a cheap process as you pay for the oven use and in this demographic of annealed acrylic demand, you will rarely find anyone else to help fill the oven and share costs as they do with tempered glass.

JM2C


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## kev416

Aquatic Designs said:


> I would pay whatever the cost to have my tanks annealed. No one would do it. They said it would warp the acrylic. My understanding is they heat until it is softened and then let it cool slowly. Like tempering glass.
> 
> Even Tenecor does not anneal their tanks. And they should have there own oven big enough to do it. Which for them would add almost nothing to the process other then electricity costs. And it would put them ahead of their competitors. But they don't. If it was as simple as you discribe, it would be a no brainer for them.
> 
> If you know of a fabricator that has an oven in the GTA large enough for a car. Please let me know. I would like to see if they would anneal my tanks.


The only ovens in Toronto are sheet stock ovens for drape forming less than 3/8" stock. You can't put an aquarium in a sheet stock oven. It's not big enough. If the sheet acrylic is let's say 1-1/2", you can't lift it. It's too heavy. It must be thermoformed in an oven on the form itself. This is what the big boys in the industry do. The same oven used in thermoforming is used in annealing.


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## gucci17

wow this thread is getting very interesting. Thanks for the information.


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## kev416

gucci17 said:


> wow this thread is getting very interesting. Thanks for the information.


It's a dumb argument. We're talking standard tanks for the most part. And we're talking cosmetic issues. A cast acrylic tank with a euro top won't fall apart but customers should be warned crazing does occur especially if the thickness of acrylic used is undersized.


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## kev416

*Casco*

Casco, California Aquarium Supply Co.

http://www.casco-group.com/USFS-custom.html


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## Aquatic Designs

I have 10, 75 gallon acrylic tanks and i'm waiting to buy my show tank. I would fill the oven on my own. 

Every fabricator I talked to about annealing them said they would not guarantee that it wouldn't warp the tank.

And if the fabricators won't do it, then it tells me it's not a process you can do successfully to an aquarium.

Store displays that you don't need to see thru i'm sure they anneal all the time. Aquariums no one will touch with any confidence.


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## bigfishy

gucci17 said:


> wow this thread is getting very interesting. Thanks for the information.


<< I started it! 

Very useful information, another chapter added to my brain! Thanks!


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## Aquatic Designs

I just read that page listed for Casco. Seems they are confident in annealing the tanks they build. Thanks for letting me know.


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## ameekplec.

bigfishy said:


> << I started it!
> 
> Very useful information, another chapter added to my brain! Thanks!


+1 - And if they build tanks for Monterey Bay Aquarium, and the Aquarium of the Atlantic and a bunch of other places, I'm sure they're "pretty" good at what they do


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