# Sick/Dieing Fish Mystery



## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

Hello all,

I have a 20g with about 15 guppies, a few ghost shrimp, 2 female bettas, 2 ghost glass fish, 2 long beaks and some 5 cardinals.

Also have bunch of various plants, planted in .5-1 inch of Fluval Shrimp substrate, bunch of rocks, and hiding places for everyone.

Two days ago, I noticed the fish acting kind of weird (doing a bit of floating action when swimming, and looking like they were having a work out trying to swim) so I kept an eye on them. No one looked sick, so I kept an eye on everything. The next day, I have a long beak, and a cardinal die. I did about a 15% water change, cleaned the filter real good, changed the actual filter itself last night. I came back today and had 2 dead guppies.

Now both bettas seem to hide and keep their fins closed or can't even really open them. And I have two guppies with similar issues. Their tail is almost like someone has dipped them in clear glue. 

They have no cloudiness to them, no red gills from what I can tell, no spots or signs of ick. I have API Furan-2 Anti-becterial Fish Medication, but unsure if that will help, and don't want to add it if it's going to cause more stress to the fish. I've done a 50% water change today with RO water.

I tried looking this up, but not much luck. Any one have this issue before, any/or know anything I can do to help them out.

Cheers,
-Sam.


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

how long has the tank been running for


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

How long has the tank been running? You're also way overstocked.

What are the water test results?


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## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

Sorry didn't see this

1) Size of tank 20G
2) temperature of tank 23-24c
3) ammonia reading I am unsure
4) nitrite reading Unsure
5) nitrate reading Unsure - I know these are important and I have a kit to test for GH & KH but every time I test it, it never makes sense to me (I have the API kit if anyone can shine light on what the hell I'm doing wrong
6) pH 6.6 but will probably drop to 6.3-6.4 after water change
7) decor of the tank (ie, substrate, plants etc) Red fluval bag for substrate, bunch of various plants)
8) how long has this tank been set up and running? filtration? 2+ months with carbon filter
9) water change frequency and amount15% last night, 40-50% today

I will try and get some pictures of the tank, but to be honest, I've inspected the dead fish for anything that could have shown sign, and nothing.


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## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

solarz said:


> How long has the tank been running? You're also way overstocked.
> 
> What are the water test results?


Their is about 7 adult guppies and the rest fry. Everyone seems to have lots of room to swim without any issues.
And trying to figure out this kit out so I can get some more numbers. But I really am unsure how it works. I'll do another test and post what my outcome is shortly.


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## Kerohime (Jan 10, 2011)

So you have had this tank running for approximately 2 months? 

How many new fish did you add at a time? Adding too much all at once would shock your system, and it seems like its a relatively new setup.

And I think you may be doing too much of a water change, and cleaning and replacing a filter that has only been running for 2 months might actually hurt the beneficial bacteria levels in your tank, causing your Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates to spike. 

I dont think the KH and GH thing is really as important as testing the Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrate levels.


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## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

I will wait before I fill the tank of fully then.

Added everybody slowly. Each group of fish in sets of one a week, starting with the guppies.

The filter says it should be replaced every 2 weeks (I know crazy), I help off for 2 months, and it was very dirty.

What is or who makes the best kit for testing nitrate, nitrates and ammonia.

Would this account to the issues the fish are having?


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

what did you do exactly when you cleaned the filter?

what brand and type of filter are you running?

As for the kit, API is a popular choice. Like others said, GH and KH at this point is not too important. Get an API ammonia, nitrite and nitrate freshwater master kit. And follow the instructions on the manual or cards provided or on the bottle itself. If its not clear, we are more than glad to help you through it.

At this point, testing the ammonia and nitrite levels are of the upmost importance. What you can also do is take a water sample to your local fish store, most of them will help you do a test. What you are looking for is a ammonia and nitrite reading of 0, if you go the fishstore to get the sample, many times they will immediately suggest products so "solve" the problem..DONT believe them. Go home and do a few things:

1) keep up with the frequent water changes.

2) talk to other people here and see if anyone near you who can give you some "old" media filled with the bacteria needed for the nitrogen fixation.

but in short, from everything I have read, it looks like they are either suffering from ammonia/nitrite poisoning. Or they are suffering from a bacterial or fungal infection, or a bacterial or fungal infection brought on by weakened immune system due to high levels of ammonia and nitrite.


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

the tank didn't cycle completely, adding fish too early makes the ammonia spike real high and extends the cycling period. 2 months and that many fish added, even if you waited a week between each group, you still got ammonia building up in the tank that already has ammonia in it to begin with. usually fish are hiding and have clamp fins are a sign of high ammonia

clean the filter media in tank water, not in tap. Don't replace the filter media with new ones, since you got colonies of beneficial bacteria growing in there.

Carbon just takes out impurities, not ammonia.

what i would do is keep up the water changes. fish will continue dying because the tank hasn't completed its cycle. adding a lot of plants can help absorb the excess ammonia as well, im not sure about those liquid solutions that "lock" ammonia and how good they are


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

also use Prime to dechlorinate ur tap water, I never had problems with it and I have tried a bunch of those cheapy brands before


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## mrobson (Mar 5, 2011)

What are the condition of your plants, if your plants are starting to degrade that can make your water quality take a nose dive. Also when you bought the fish were they living in RO water if they werent they could get shocked if you put them right into RO.


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## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

Well it looks like another guppy is going belly up, and a Cardinal is loosing all it's colour, and looks like it will die shortly. =(

I think you all may be correct with ammonia issue. I did notice the cardinals gills were a bit red, and part of his body was kind of going soft, or jelling kind. Should I treat the tank in case it's also something else?

When I did start the tank I took 5 gallons from my dads 60-70g that has been running for 2 years. Not sure if that helps.

The plants all seem to be doing good. I had one plant get caught up in the filter and get shredded and I've been taking all the pieces out as I can.

I cleaned the filter out in my tap water, which mentioned is on a well and has no chlorine or anything that should kill any bacteria. But I did change the filter yesterday. Should I put the old one back? It was extremely dirty, and pretty well clogged up. The filter is a Penguin 150, with bio-wheel (if that does anything?)

I don't believe the fish were used to RO water, but the fish that are dieing are the ones that have been in their the longest. And I've been doing water changes with RO for weeks. I usually do a 5-10% change every week, to help take any crap that may be floating at the top.

I'm thinking of dosing the tank, any opinions?

Ohh and I some how got 2 cherrys which snuck in from my other tank, have grown in a month, and now pregnant. I've since taken her out, but everything was fine until a couple days ago.

Time to go fish out some dead fish I'm sure.... 

Should I take the bettas out?


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## Byronicle (Apr 18, 2009)

RCode said:


> Well it looks like another guppy is going belly up, and a Cardinal is loosing all it's colour, and looks like it will die shortly. =(
> 
> I think you all may be correct with ammonia issue. I did notice the cardinals gills were a bit red, and part of his body was kind of going soft, or jelling kind. Should I treat the tank in case it's also something else?


Honestly, sounds like ammonia to me, it happens to all of us so dont hurt yourself too much. just keep up the water changes, leave the filter media in this time



RCode said:


> When I did start the tank I took 5 gallons from my dads 60-70g that has been running for 2 years. Not sure if that helps.


usually bacterial like to cling onto things like ornaments, gravel, and filter media. take your dad's filter media and put it into your filter or some gravel of his and put it in your tank



RCode said:


> I cleaned the filter out in my tap water, which mentioned is on a well and has no chlorine or anything that should kill any bacteria. But I did change the filter yesterday. Should I put the old one back? It was extremely dirty, and pretty well clogged up. The filter is a Penguin 150, with bio-wheel (if that does anything?)


i would put the old one back in, unless its dried up. if it is dried up, the beneficial bacteria is dead



RCode said:


> I'm thinking of dosing the tank, any opinions?


try using Seachem Prime


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

One thing everyone has missed is that with the pH below 7 there is no toxic ammonia. If the pH were to spike you might have an issue if in fact the there was ammonium present. As well, the bio wheel should be still alive even if the internal elements of the filter were changed. However, there seems to be something else going on here.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

RCode said:


> Their is about 7 adult guppies and the rest fry. Everyone seems to have lots of room to swim without any issues.
> And trying to figure out this kit out so I can get some more numbers. But I really am unsure how it works. I'll do another test and post what my outcome is shortly.


Basic rule of thumb is 1 inch of fish per gallon. Adult guppies are about 2", so that's 14 gallons right there. Add to that 2 bettas, glass fish, etc. You are definitely overstocked.

If your tank has been running for 2 months, then I'm betting is a nitrite spike. Plants readily use ammonium, but has more difficulty using nitrite, making the nitrite phase a lot more dangerous.

Are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle? If not, read up on it. You also need to get a test kit. API freshwater master kit is good. You absolutely need to know your tank water's pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

For the mean time, start making 40-50% water changes daily, get a test kit ASAP and test water parameters. You will need to keep making those water changes until the readings become good.

Don't change your filter media for now, just rinse it well under *tank water*.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

BillD said:


> One thing everyone has missed is that with the pH below 7 there is no toxic ammonia. If the pH were to spike you might have an issue if in fact the there was ammonium present.


True, but if ammonia/nitrite/nitrate testing isn't happening, then I doubt pH is either!


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

RCode said:


> I don't believe the fish were used to RO water, but the fish that are dieing are the ones that have been in their the longest. And I've been doing water changes with RO for weeks. I usually do a 5-10% change every week, to help take any crap that may be floating at the top.


10 to 15% with pure RO? That could be your issue.

Try WCs with 100% tap or 50:50 Tap:RO.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Chris S said:


> True, but if ammonia/nitrite/nitrate testing isn't happening, then I doubt pH is either!


RCode states the pH is 6.6 and 6.4 after water changes.
The tank is not overstocked. The one inch rule is next to useless. Stan Shubel, famous for his guppies, uses 10 gallon grow out tanks, to grow out 80 male guppies. Those tanks had a simple box filter and get a weekly 50% water change. These are world class guppies that go for around $40 a pair or trio. Personally, I have grown out close to 300 angels to nickel/quarter size in a 48" 30 gallon tank, with no crowding type malformations, and using only a sponge filter. Of course to do this, large daily water changes are necessary.


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## pharmaecopia (Mar 1, 2011)

ameekplec. said:


> 10 to 15% with pure RO? That could be your issue.
> 
> Try WCs with 100% tap or 50:50 Tap:RO.


I have to agree with the RO being a likely cause. I'm also surprised that no one has mentioned that guppies are from naturally harder water to begin with.


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## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

BillD said:


> RCode states the pH is 6.6 and 6.4 after water changes.
> The tank is not overstocked. The one inch rule is next to useless. Stan Shubel, famous for his guppies, uses 10 gallon grow out tanks, to grow out 80 male guppies. Those tanks had a simple box filter and get a weekly 50% water change. These are world class guppies that go for around $40 a pair or trio. Personally, I have grown out close to 300 angels to nickel/quarter size in a 48" 30 gallon tank, with no crowding type malformations, and using only a sponge filter. Of course to do this, large daily water changes are necessary.


Well I bought a API Ammonia NH3/NH4+ kit (Hope this is the right one?), and it shows .25-.5 ppm(mg/L). I will try and get a nitrate test kit this weekend. I dosed the tank, and will be doing 25% water changes every other day. I haven't lost any other fist, but 2 guppies look kind of down but still holding together. And I'm taking out one of the female bettas tomorrow.

I'll keep the thread updated on how things go. And I have some pictures, but I'll have to post them tomorrow.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

RCode said:


> Well I bought a API Ammonia NH3/NH4+ kit (Hope this is the right one?), and it shows .25-.5 ppm(mg/L). I will try and get a nitrate test kit this weekend. I dosed the tank, and will be doing 25% water changes every other day. I haven't lost any other fist, but 2 guppies look kind of down but still holding together. And I'm taking out one of the female bettas tomorrow.
> 
> I'll keep the thread updated on how things go. And I have some pictures, but I'll have to post them tomorrow.


Why don't you just get a master kit? It has everything you need. Since your test kit shows ammonia, that means your tank hasn't even begun the cycle yet. You will definitely need the nitrite test before nitrate. Again, please read up on the nitrogen cycle.

*Stop feeding your fish for a few days and make daily 50% water changes.*



> The tank is not overstocked. The one inch rule is next to useless. Stan Shubel, famous for his guppies, uses 10 gallon grow out tanks, to grow out 80 male guppies. Those tanks had a simple box filter and get a weekly 50% water change. These are world class guppies that go for around $40 a pair or trio. Personally, I have grown out close to 300 angels to nickel/quarter size in a 48" 30 gallon tank, with no crowding type malformations, and using only a sponge filter. Of course to do this, large daily water changes are necessary.


There is a HUGE difference between what is overstocked for a professional breeder, and what is overstocked for a beginner whose tank isn't even cycled yet!

The one inch per gallon rule is for beginners, and it takes into account a buffer zone for precisely the kind of mistakes that beginners tend to make.

Even then, the one inch per gallon rule assumes a cycled tank. An uncycled tank should have ZERO fish!


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

There is a HUGE difference between what is overstocked for a professional breeder said:


> And what exactly would be that HUGE difference? Do a professional breeders fish have different requirements?
> As far as the inch per gallon rule goes, it is so full of holes as to be useless, unless you believe a 20 gallon cycled tank is fine for two 10" oscars.


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## Arkerone (Mar 15, 2011)

There are obvious exceptions but someone newer should be erring on the side of understocked till they're more knowledgable about the particular flora and fauna that they're keeping.

The pro breeder knows how to maintain their water params, test and have proper water changing going on for their situation. He's not saying a breeder has magical christmasland tanks that can hold infinite fish, just that he knows how to maintain an overstocked tank in a safer manner.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

The one inch rule should be used really really loosely and what type of fish is very important. The ammonia output of ten tetra compared to one Oscar might be very different. Goldfish are also messy eaters and poopers so you'd have to watch the water quality much more closely than with a smaller fish like guppy or tetra. but that's jmho and experience so far.

I hope the OP figures out whats wrong, I am not sure if you located a test kit and figured it out but we can help you with it


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## RCode (Dec 12, 2010)

Hey all,

Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy doing water changes and taking car of the fish. 

It looks like I have everything under control again. I used that medication previous mentioned for 1 cycle. It called for 25% water changes, back to back, then a 10%. I did one day with RO, a second with water from my dads 3 year old tank, and then the last 10% was a combo of both. 

Everyone is healthy, and haven't lost anyone. Tested the ammonia and it was about .25.

Do people really see it go bright yellow for no ammonia? (guess I can test my RO for the truth!)

Thank you everyone for your help! I had/have pictures, but my phone crashed. Trying to see if I did a backup before. Err... have to wait tell work on Monday.


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