# Is it ethical for LFS to provide false information when asked?



## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

Here's a hypothetical question:

A customer walks into a well-known LFS. He asks the store attendant there, within a few feet of the owner of the store, if a certain fish was reef-safe. The store attendant said, "yes" even though the fish is known to feast on corals only. Is that ethical?

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Here's what happened:

So I was at a well known LFS for salt water fish in Markham yesterday.

Mind you, I'm still a nub when it comes to Marine and don't know all the fishes. And they always have something interesting, even if the fishes aren't always in the best shape. 

I saw this attractive yellow and green long nosed fish. So I asked the guy there, what's the name of this fish. 

He said: yellow-spotted file fish.
me: is it reef safe?

him: yeah it's reef safe.

me: what does it eat?

him, & owner: oh it'll eat regular marine food, pellets, frozen food.

so I thought great! cool looking fish for my smallish size tanks.

I brought it home, put it into a quarantine tank (I've set up quarantines for individual fishes).

Now I'm reading up on yellow spotted file fish, it's actually called orange spotted file fish. It feeds on CORALS. 

so why the F would this dude tell me it's REEF SAFE? Don't plead ignorance because he knew the name and this place is a known wholesaler.

I just think it's extremely unethical. 

And no, it shouldn't be "oh well you should read up before you buy". Yes we all should, but it doesn't ABSOLVE them from lying to a customer like this. 

I'm not sure they don't take returns do they. Cash sales, no receipts.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

http://www.vanuatupost.vu/filefish.html

http://www.aquariumdomain.com/viewSpeciesMarine.php?id=177

By the way, does anyone have cheap acros they can spare to feed this guy? puhlease????


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

In the end it's your responsibility for your aquarium and reef regardless of who sells you what. 

Most of the reefers will research their next purchase rather than going to a store and saying "I like the color of that one"

Good Luck!


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

the orange spotted file fish is considered an obligate coral polyp feeder.
none of your sps will be happy with that fish in your tank.
It won't go after browned out corals, it will go after all of them.


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## loonie (Mar 29, 2008)

My opinion, no matter how well known a LFS, you have to do some kind of a research as to the fish you want to buy, esp. for a reef tank. More often they themselves do not know much about the fish. There was once someone in a LFS told me this butterfly fish are reef safe, I did not take his word for it and buy the fish since I know all butterfly fish feed on corals. So, for reef tanks, you just have to take the extra precaution.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

yes there is personal accountability and responsibility, and I will take it for mine. NOW there's also the seller LFS accountability to provide the CORRECT information, knowledgable information, especially what they know well. That's why we are all supportive of LFS isn't it, instead of some online sellers?

Second - GUYS, it sounds AS IF you are OK with professional retailers providing you false information, or deceiving you.


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## Car2n (Jun 7, 2011)

If you have a smart phone, you can look up the information right then and there.


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## Flame Angel (Oct 13, 2010)

That is a very beautiful fish. I would have bought the fish at first sight and took whatever advice given by the store. Next time if you do not have a smartphone, you may request them to look it up in a fish handbook. I saw a few times their acquaintance customers asked them to bring out the handbook to reconfirm.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*lfs*

I can take both sides on this yes I know and we know it is our responsibility to research purchases I have to admit I have been prone to splurge purchases as well , but I think what the OP is talking about is when u go to a well known reef shop u kinda or should expect some sort of honesty and integrity .expecialy after spending money on other stuff at a local store .I have always had good luck on my purchases at some local stores and have weeded out some stores and pretty much only go there when and if I see something I absolutely need or want something .I don't mind traveling a little farther to get products and livestock .
as a rule as a prev poster posted , I do use liveaquaria when I see something that I think I want .
cheers 
tom


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Is it Ethical? 
NO. 
Do I still shop at that LFS(pretty sure I know which one you're talking about)?
YES. 
Why do I still shop there? 
Good question.


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

My two cents:

As a business owner, I want repeat customers... How do I get it... Running my business ethically and standing behind my product. If this was indeed the owner that told you this, then shame on them because they should at least outline the risks. I believe as owners we have a responsibility to provide knowledge and guidance to help build this hobby. However, I am not ready to point the finger yet and I will explain why....

If you were to come to my place today you would see the most unconventional reef. I have two triggers (a clown trigger and huma huma.), a regal angel, and a flame angel along with various other fish in my reef tank. You may ask me... Are those reef safe? Now clearly they are doing perfectly fine in my reef environment however my response has always been, I took a risk and it worked out. You may go back and say to yourself... "Hey that fish can is reef safe!" but clearly in your tank it may react very different.

So coming down to your OP... The store owner told you that that fish is reef safe and my response is... it "CAN" be.


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## one90gallontank (May 29, 2012)

fesso clown said:


> Why do I still shop there?
> Good question.


The answer is we do not have enough saltwater fish stores in Markham and Richmond Hill. Most of the saltwater fish stores are located in Mississauga. Unless time permitted on Saturday (as I have to do grocery shopping on weekend), I would not take an hr to Mississauga to get a fish unless I really want the fish.

Also the cost of gas adds up. This is a very expensive hobby.


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

Pretty obvious to me which store you're referring to.

The simple fact is they continually demonstrate they care about the sale only, not the fish.

I had a similar experience there.

Was looking to get a few different types of fish when I was starting my tank, Saw a goby. Thought I could recall doing my research it was a jumper. Dumb me asked if it's a jumper they both said no. 

(I should have known better, I had already read it was a jumper, but naively thought I had gotten my species mixed up. I was a newb - still am - and they're the experts right? lol) 

Two days later it was dead on my floor.

I don't understand that business model - make a single sale, but lose the customer and all future sales. Guess they really needed that $7 that day.

Luckily not all stores operate this way, and these are the ones I give my business to. And yes ultimately I am the one who bought it, I should have been %100 sure it was compatible for my set up.

It's just sad to me that people try to excuse this stores behavior.

Buying a fish with out knowing it through and through is a no-no.

Lying to a customer is a no-no.

Lying to a customer knowing that the sale while likely end up with a dead or unhappy animal is an even bigger no-no.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Here's the deal...

We all shop at this store.
We all know this person tells every newbies that the fish are reef safe.
If you know what you're buying and have done your research, this store is amazing to shop at.
We all know the customer service at this store "lacks"

The fact is, this store is actually a good store to shop at "If" you know what you're doing. If you don't then the store will definitely take advantage of the situation. Why you ask? They are a business that doesn't really rely on your $7 purchase since the guy behind you is going to buy $500 worth of coral and $800 worth of equipment. 

Amazingly I've had a bad experience at pretty much every LFS I've been to so it just goes to show that customer service in canada ain't wait it use to be. The only store that this doesn't apply to is ARA and Flavio. The customer service he shows is amazing and that's why I drive an hour.

Why shop at this store?? $2.99 Green Chromis and 50 cent snails. I know what I'm buying and know what to look for so when I see a neon green BTA with red tips for $10 I'm buying it! 

Do your research, take a smart phone with you, don't rely on the advice of the LFS and you'll be fine.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

was screwed also many times in this store as much as in others

and completely agree that ..."Amazingly I've had a bad experience at pretty much every LFS I've been"

they will sell you elephant for the 10G tank. I think all beginners went trough this

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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

BINGO!!!



altcharacter said:


> ..The only store that this doesn't apply to is ARA and Flavio. The customer service he shows is amazing and that's why I drive an hour....


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

altcharacter said:


> They are a business that doesn't really rely on your $7 purchase since the guy behind you is going to buy $500 worth of coral and $800 worth of equipment.


That's sort of it - for me it's the principle - screw me and I am no longer your customer. When it's time upgrade or buy corals I'm going somewhere that respects their customers. So the store in question does not get my $100's on corals and equipment.



WiseGuyAquatics said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*lfs*

A++++++++ to FLavio its worth the drive milton


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## zenins (Sep 17, 2013)

tom g said:


> A++++++++ to FLavio its worth the drive milton


I know Flavio has customers coming from Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph as well


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Greg_o said:


> That's sort of it - for me it's the principle - screw me and I am no longer your customer.
> .


It was my principle also until I found there are no more stores to go  

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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

I usually trust that they will tell the truth "to the best of their knowledge." Which means, maybe in their personal experience, it has or hasn't been fitting within certain criterion. They probably aren't marine biologists.

And if I think what LFS you might be referring to, they have a book that floats around the shop with all the info you need before purchasing a new fish, IF you don't have a smartphone yourself to look it up. And every time I ask the manager, "What is that?" he answers, "It's a ________, but it's not reef safe." I appreciate that, but in the end, it's still my choice and my risk.

I can honestly say that I have NEVER bought a marine fish without first reading up on it first.


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## rickcasa (Dec 7, 2011)

The OP's question is obviously rhetorical. We're all guilty of falling for a cool looking fish or the insane prices. In fact I think we have our minds made up even before the lfs has given us their thoughts. Like Phil said, there are always exceptions to the rule and really, isn't that when we feel most rewarded by this hobby. I know I have debunked a few myself. If you are up for the challenge I say make the best of it and appreciate the lessons you'll learn trying to prove the conventional wrong.

And yes, there's definitely an arrogance from that lfs that comes from the success of its business model and working so damn hard. So yes shame on him for staring down the ethics police. But surely we must share the shame for tolerating it.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

WiseGuyAquatics said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

rickcasa said:


> And yes, there's definitely an arrogance from that lfs that comes from the success of its business model and working so damn hard. So yes shame on him for staring down the ethics police. But surely we must share the shame for tolerating it.


That's what I'm talking about, and thank you for getting it. I'm not going back there. Further, I will try to avoid any stores that source their fish from this store.

It isn't just the ethics in terms of information they feed to the customers. It's also in the way the fishes are being cared for and treated. Their stock's just suspect.


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Rather than continuing to talk about the ethics, here is how you can avoid this problem all together. As many of the LFS do purchase specific livestock form this store, I would recommend purchasing your livestock from the Big Al's on Kennedy. Here is the why.

They ship most of their livestock to their farm in Florida from various exporters across the world. Once at their farm, they acclimate their fish and adjust the pH prior to shipping to Canada to ensure they survive the trip. Once Big Al's on Kennedy receive their fish, they use their bottom tanks to acclimate and quarantine there fish for 3-5 days and will put a sign on there tanks letting you know that they are not for sale. After their quarantine process, they sort their fish based on their tendencies and aggression. This is why you will pay more but get a healthy fish in return.

*Note:* No matter what store you go to, get to know the staff. I usually go to the same 2 people there specifically because not all of their staff are experienced with the marine hobby.


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## explor3r (Mar 14, 2010)

+1 for buying fish at Big als and another LFS that carry nice clean and healthy fish is REEF BOUTIQUE I highly recommend it to you


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

and because fishes are more expensive in BA it stays in their tanks longer, which is good



WiseGuyAquatics said:


> Rather than continuing to talk about the ethics, here is how you can avoid this problem all together. As many of the LFS do purchase specific livestock form this store, I would recommend purchasing your livestock from the Big Al's on Kennedy. Here is the why.
> 
> They ship most of their livestock to their farm in Florida from various exporters across the world. Once at their farm, they acclimate their fish and adjust the pH prior to shipping to Canada to ensure they survive the trip. Once Big Al's on Kennedy receive their fish, they use their bottom tanks to acclimate and quarantine there fish for 3-5 days and will put a sign on there tanks letting you know that they are not for sale. After their quarantine process, they sort their fish based on their tendencies and aggression. This is why you will pay more but get a healthy fish in return.
> 
> *Note:* No matter what store you go to, get to know the staff. I usually go to the same 2 people there specifically because not all of their staff are experienced with the marine hobby.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*lfs*

+1 on above.longer in tanks usually healthier.
I have had no issues with reef boutique higher price but I know 
The quality is usually better.big als scarb as well.also as phil 
Says helps to have a goto guy at each place as they will give u heads up on 
Health....


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## loonie (Mar 29, 2008)

I suppose all BA does that since at Mississauga BA they always have a sign saying "not for sale" for fish that just arrived or not doing well. Normally its two to three days after arrival, the fish is for sale, that is their practice. Also often they do have good sale, you just have to wait for the right time to get what you looking for.


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

If they use that process then your good to go (never been to BA in the miss).

However, I can say that not all BA uses this process and that all their staff is versed in Marine Aquaria. I once had to stop a sales rep for almost selling a Butterfly fish as a Tang at one location.



loonie said:


> I suppose all BA does that since at Mississauga BA they always have a sign saying "not for sale" for fish that just arrived or not doing well. Normally its two to three days after arrival, the fish is for sale, that is their practice. Also often they do have good sale, you just have to wait for the right time to get what you looking for.


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## goldfish (Nov 22, 2011)

+1 on the poor livestock quality at this particular Markham store

I haven't had any fish from there lasting longer than 2 years

Even though he's the only store in the Markham/RH area, there's alot more stores that have opened up recently.

Sure his location is convenient for me but I would rather drive over an hr, pay a higher price and get better customer service.

+1 for Flavio - He actually delivered a set of LED lights to my home address since I waited a bit longer for my order to arrive (That's what I call GREAT customer service)


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Car2n said:


> If you have a smart phone, you can look up the information right then and there.


+1

10chars


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

goldfish said:


> Even though he's the only store in the Markham/RH area, there's alot more stores that have opened up recently.


Don't forget about Reefquarium just around the corner. Not the same selection but is highly worth seeking out.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Greg_o said:


> Don't forget about Reefquarium just around the corner. Not the same selection but is highly worth seeking out.


Reefquarium's got my vote. I go there just to see the display tanks even if I'm not buying anything.


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

He has been the hobby for a long time. I consider Ken (Owner of Reefquarium)a hobbyist at heart. Just look at his display tanks  Unfortunately because he works more at the service side he does not carry much livestock.


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## Taipan (Feb 12, 2012)

I refer to ReefQuarium Ken "Original Ken". I've followed him over the years from location to location as he moved. Healthy livestock and great for conversation for anything reef related. Exceptionally knowledgeable.


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## noy (Nov 19, 2012)

funny, I bought a juvenile coral hawkfish there (the markham place in question) last weekend that was sold to me as a kind of anthias. Really didn't matter - I knew what I was getting (just didn't know the specific variety of hawkfish).

I think the helpers mean well but are not that knowledgeable. I don't they intentionally try to deceive people though.


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

Noy, I suspect your talking about the geometric pygmy hawkfish, which is a Plectranthias sp.... I suspect at least in this case, there is some confusion, due to the genus name. It's baffled me before, too.
Be careful, it will eat your shrimp if you have any.


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

Thought I'd pipe in here.
I've had issues with almost all of the retailers at some point.
Ultimately, they can't know everything about all of the fish they import from Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Phillippines, Carribbean, Hawaii, and who knows where else - it's 1000+ species. That's why people do research. 
Google has a reverse look up feature. Just take a pic with your phone, and look it up before spending the money and getting home only to have to figure out how to get it out of your tank.


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## noy (Nov 19, 2012)

teemee said:


> Noy, I suspect your talking about the geometric pygmy hawkfish, which is a Plectranthias sp.... I suspect at least in this case, there is some confusion, due to the genus name. It's baffled me before, too.
> Be careful, it will eat your shrimp if you have any.


thanks teemee - you are right on with the genus (Plectranthias inermis). Interesting fish - apparently a hawkfish that's related to groupers and anthias. The one I have is tiny and the only shrimp in there is a pistol which is 2/3 his size and comes out once a month (if that). I wonder if the watchman goby will protect his little buddy.


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