# 911 help, Jack dempseys, something wrong



## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

hello everyone,,,, Hope you can help out.... For some reason or other my jack Dempsey's have stopped eating.. almost 4 days now,, especially the little female. Even the large male (9.5 inches) is not even eating krill or silversides nor pellets????
Noticed that they have been scratching up against the sides of rocks and the pots in the tank, mostly the female and on her face. THE Female is also doing a ton of twitching, Not really territorial twitching......
My Aquaclear 50 HOB filter gave out which contains charcoal about 3 days ago, so i was thinking it was lack of oxygen due to not much surface agitation. So i went and bought the Hydor Koralia 1 and put it in the tank, along with a foot long air stone on full... been running like this for 36 hours.. no real change..(except that they are not breathing hard). 
NO visible signs indicating ICH... 

I have not tested the water parameters as i have stated in another post, i have not been doing that being a newbie.. will be doing that tonight......
I just slapped myself for that one. 
Any suggestions? Sorry for the long post but I'm worried about losing these fish here..... 
cheers!!!!
sheldon


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

Do a good water change. Did something change other than the filter? Wait...what are you using to filter?


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## Y2KGT (Jul 20, 2009)

I agree. I would do large daily water changes of 50% with dechlorinated water for a week and if you didn't replace the Aquaclear 50 that failed you may have experienced an ammonia spike. What are you currently using to filter the tank and how big is this tank that contains how many Jack Dempseys?
The more info you provide the better.
--
Thanks...Paul


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

Riceburner said:


> Do a good water change. Did something change other than the filter? Wait...what are you using to filter?





Y2KGT said:


> I agree. I would do large daily water changes of 50% with dechlorinated water for a week and if you didn't replace the Aquaclear 50 that failed you may have experienced an ammonia spike. What are you currently using to filter the tank and how big is this tank that contains how many Jack Dempseys?
> The more info you provide the better.
> --
> Thanks...Paul


heh folks... thanks for weighing in.. i'm doing a big water change on sunday but maybe tomorrow... for filtering riceburner (heh how is your little female jd doing by the way? ) i'm using a rena xp3 and a 2215 at the same time, with the failed aquaclear 50, which i managed to get running again tonight.

The tank is 75 gallons y2kgt and i also put in a cap and a half of prime yesterday because my last 2 water changes i did not use any water conditioner.... Fish seem to be bouncing back a little right now.. i put in a little food but still not going for it..... hmmmmmm
will keep you both posted...
cheers and thanks
sheldon


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

You probably have done this but I have to say it. Check the water temperature.


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

Calmer said:


> You probably have done this but I have to say it. Check the water temperature.


Thanks calmer, a point made is always a point taken because sometimes it could be something as simple as that. No suggestions are ever wrong, but yes,, i'm actually running my temperatures at 75.5 as the range for jack dempseys is 72-86...... NOW the only thing is, is that i had a bad heater that was keeping the tank at 86.7 and i didn't realize it till i got 2 new thermometers and a new hearter (200watt jager) since then about a week i have been keeping it at the 75 mark area....... fish were eating fine 1st 3 days... so do you think it maybe affecting them as it just took a bit of time to show the results? 
Maybe i should bump it up a small bit or something...
Doing a water test today to see if anything is out of whack there....
thanks for the comments
sheldon


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

*THE Scoop,,, high Nitrates*

hello everyone again and sorry for the constant updates but i just completed my water testing. 
Okay.. instead of getting everyone to write and bug you all if anyone knows of a good link regarding water testing, what the results mean and so forth then please add the link here. Would appreciate that:
My stats before water change which i'm doing tomorrow (fish still not eating even though they seem like they want to, hmmm Stomach bug?)
ph - between 7.0-7.2
PH HIGH - 7.8
Ammonia between 0 ppm - 0.25 in between color chart.
Nitrite: 0 ppm.
Nitrate: VERY BAD: over 160 ppm no color on chart.... YIKES.... 
thanks in advance....


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## ksimdjembe (Nov 11, 2006)

more regular water changes on a regular schedule with dechlorinated water at the correct temperature will do wonders. how often do you water change?


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

fish_luva said:


> hello everyone again and sorry for the constant updates but i just completed my water testing.
> Okay.. instead of getting everyone to write and bug you all if anyone knows of a good link regarding water testing, what the results mean and so forth then please add the link here. Would appreciate that:
> My stats before water change which i'm doing tomorrow (fish still not eating even though they seem like they want to, hmmm Stomach bug?)
> ph - between 7.0-7.2
> ...


I posted some recommendations for you on the Canadian Aquarium Connection board. Perhaps you haven't read them yet.

Your fish aren't eating because they are feeling poisoned by the bad water quality. Bad water quality will make them susceptible to disease and parasites, as well as make them miserable.

You've got a very high bioload in there, and you are feeding your fish several times a day on high protein foods. JDs are omnivores and excessive protein not only greatly increases nitrogenous waste, it's not good for their kidneys or digestive systems. They like high protein foods, but we like a lot of food that isn't good for us in excess, too, right? You wouldn't be very healthy if you lived mostly on cheesecake and ice cream and chocolate. Fish need much less food than mammals per unit body weight, because mammals spend most of their calories on keeping their body temperature up and stable, something fish don't do. Obesity isn't good for fish, either. Beginners often overestimate the amount of food to feed. Fish will usually eat all they can because in nature food isn't so easy to find, so they have an instinct to get what they can while it's there. This is a problem in captivity, where food is plentiful. They may act like they're starving, especially intelligent fish like cichlids that can train you to feed them, but they aren't.

If you want to keep these fish alive and healthy you will have to step up your water changes to keep the nitrate level down. Cutting back on the amount and protein level of the food will also help.

You were asking before when and how often to test water. I suggest that you test frequently until you figure out how often changes are necessary. Ideally you want to keep the ammonia and nitrite at zero and nitrate below 20ppm, but keeping it in whatever your test kit regards as a safe range *before* water change is a good first goal. Since you are a beginner at this and haven't developed a feel for when water changes are imperative, you should test daily, and whenever the nitrate level is out of the safe range, do a water change. The weekly 20-25% is clearly not adequate for the large fish and heavy high-protein feeding.

If you change 50% of the water, it will get the nitrate down to 80ppm, which is still bad. Do this *today*, and another 50% tomorrow. Ideally, this will get nitrate down to 40-50ppm, which is tolerable, but still high. Test again every day next week, and whenever the nitrate is over 40ppm, do a 50% change. After you figure out a schedule that will keep nitrate to a safe level, you can test less frequently if you keep up that schedule. Your fish will continue to grow and increase the bioload, so the schedule will have to change too.

JDs can be long-lived fish under good conditions. I know of two that lived to 15 and 18 years old. They can tolerate cool temperatures very well. The 18 year old fish was kept at temps in the 50sF (low teens C) in winter. Cooler temps will slow metabolism and reduce bioload if you also cut way back on feeding.

The pH is fine at 7.8. JDs come from Central America where they live in streams and rivers in limestone areas. They like fairly hard, alkaline water.

Don't slap yourself for being a newbie and not testing. Instead do a water change *right now* and daily as others have suggested. Slapping yourself is not doing your fish any good, and testing without acting on the results is useless too.


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

bae said:


> I posted some recommendations for you on the Canadian Aquarium Connection board. Perhaps you haven't read them yet.
> 
> Your fish aren't eating because they are feeling poisoned by the bad water quality. You've got a very high bioload in there, and you are feeding your fish several times a day on high protein foods. They may act like they're starving, especially intelligent fish like cichlids that can train you to feed them, but they aren't.
> 
> ...


bae Wicked, thanks sooo much for the time you have taken to read my concerns and provide such an elaborate response with such detail. Totally makes sense what you are telling me and i'm going to do a water change tonight, test again tomorrow with another water change and test for next couple of weeks until i get on top of it...
Question: i've been feeding, lots of freeze dried krill and silversides. bout 7 or 8 krill or 4 silversides (large) alternating nights. Also they are getting the cichlid gold pellets. can you give me some suggestions on the feeding here. You can pm me directly if you like, email me or post here instead of adding something separate to this catagory... totally appreciate it.
Beleive me i've learned so much the last 2-3 weeks on here with all my postings... from water conditioning to water changes to equipment. The list goes on.... MUCH appreciative of your time here. Will check out the post on CAC and another forum or two.. good to get perspectives on other locations.
LOL, don't worry,, i'm sure my better half will slap me so i won't have to do it.. she had a good laugh reading that comment with me... 


ksimdjembe said:


> more regular water changes on a regular schedule with dechlorinated water at the correct temperature will do wonders. how often do you water change?


Thanks Ksimdjembe, I just started using prime, recommended on here and other forums because i was not using a conditioner often and onlyt the Big als one. I was only doing it once a week at about 20-25% and based on what what has been said in the group, i will increase that for now until i get my tank at a stable point....

thanks again everyone...
cheers!!!!


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

Keep up the WC and maybe cut back on the feeding. I feed twice a day, just what they can eat in about 5min....and even that might be a bit much....but the plec cleans up well.



fish_luva said:


> .... riceburner (heh how is your little female jd doing by the way? ) ...


She's about 2x the size now....









almost 6 months ago...


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

fish_luva said:


> Question: i've been feeding, lots of freeze dried krill and silversides. bout 7 or 8 krill or 4 silversides (large) alternating nights. Also they are getting the cichlid gold pellets. can you give me some suggestions on the feeding here.


Reserve the krill and silversides for the occasional treat, in smaller quantities, maybe once a week max. Stick with pellets, otherwise. You can also offer your JDs some cooked frozen peas now and then. Your plecos will eat them too.

Imagine if you were putting all that food into an empty tank, how foul the water would get. Running it through the fish isn't much different in the amount of nitrogenous wastes produced.

Take Riceburner's advice -- look how beautiful and healthy his fish are, and how well the little female has grown. 'As much as they can eat in five minutes' is a good rule. Maybe he can give you more detailed advice. I'm mostly into small fish.

Make sure your plecos aren't starving. You can put in a little food for them after lights out if necessary. Vegetables and algae wafers are good.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

I toss in raw shelled peas occasionally.... or cucumber, zucchini, squash, etc. ...but that's mostly for the pleco. The JDs like a bit of lettuce though.


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

bae said:


> Reserve the krill and silversides for the occasional treat, in smaller quantities, maybe once a week max. Stick with pellets, otherwise. You can also offer your JDs some cooked frozen peas now and then.
> Take Riceburner's advice -- look how beautiful and healthy his fish are, and how well the little female has grown.
> .





Riceburner said:


> I toss in raw shelled peas occasionally.... or cucumber, zucchini, squash, etc. ...but that's mostly for the pleco. The JDs like a bit of lettuce though.


Tks Guys for feeding tips.. 
update: Did 50% water change last night (full bottom vacuum with python), adding prime to correct specs at start of adding water and halfway.
Tested this morning and it's still really high, will do another 50% tonight and see what happens. 
Little fish seems hungry but not going to top for 5 little pebbles i put in....hmmmmm 
Will update more later on.
Thanks everyone so far.
sheldon


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

Did another 50% the night after and still very very high.. going to look at the filters tomorrow and give them a cleaning with another water change... Hopefully this will resolve it... water smells to.... grrrrrr


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

fish_luva said:


> Did another 50% the night after and still very very high.. going to look at the filters tomorrow and give them a cleaning with another water change... Hopefully this will resolve it... water smells to.... grrrrrr


You may want to get a ammonia monitor which can be found at PetsMart.

Ammonia, temp, and pH monitor and ammonia monitor only. I have a ammonia monitor (I think) I got from PetsMart a while ago but it's a smaller one about a 1 inch diameter circle (going off memory here) that IIRC monitors for either 6 months or 1 year. I read the instructions on that before and if says something like it takes about 2-3 hours after you say water change for the monitor to reflect those changes.

Not sure if they have a nitrAte monitor but check it out next time you're in the fish shop. Not a bad visual monitor just to be safe in this case right now. Heck if I was around where you live I'd take all that nitrAte water for my plant use.  

BTW do you have any live plants in that tank?

RiceBurner,

Nice fish.... now I'm wanting to get a JD. How fast do they grow each month? I've only a 10gal and I thikn you need a 40gal tank for them unless they grow slowly then perhaps I can hold out on the 10gal.


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

AquaNeko said:


> You may want to get a ammonia monitor which can be found at PetsMart.
> 
> Not sure if they have a nitrAte monitor but check it out next time you're in the fish shop. nitrAte water for my plant use.
> 
> BTW do you have any live plants in that tank?


Tks aqua for your comments and advice. Well my ammonia is perfect and all other things except for nitrates... I'm taking my filters out tonight and giving them a total clean as i think that's where it's coming from. Haven't been cleaned in 2 months...
I'm working on getting some Hornwort for my tank if i can find some, None at the big als in whitby......
As for the Jd's... I would recommend more then 40 gallons for a single JD... 75 gallons is what i have for 2 jd's and two pleco's... they do get fairly big...
Riceburner knows more then i do about jd's.. but they are awesome.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

ideally, I wouldn't put the JDs in anything smaller than a 4' tank. But that being said I did have 13 of them in a 90 for a time. Most were under 4" then. My biggest is 7" now.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

fish_luva said:


> I'm taking my filters out tonight and giving them a total clean as i think that's where it's coming from. Haven't been cleaned in 2 months...
> I'm working on getting some Hornwort for my tank if i can find some, None at the big als in whitby......


When you clean your filters, do it in a bucket of water from your tank. I often use tap water, but all my tanks have plants, so I'm using filters mostly for mechanical crud removal and to circulate the water -- I don't depend on them for biological filtration. Just remove all loose crud -- don't go overboard trying to get the filters looking like new. You want to preserve the film of bacteria that are consuming the ammonia and nitrite.

Clean your filters as frequently as necessary to keep water circulating freely through them. If you have a canister filter, you might want to put a sponge filter on the intake. The sponge is easier to take out and clean, and it will keep crud from building up as fast in the canister.

If you can't find hornwort, pretty much any fast growing stem plants will do. If you want to come down here to Toronto, I'll give you a big wad of naias, also called najas or guppy grass. Elodea, aka anacharis, will work too. Probably hygrophila, but I don't have experience with it. Even duckweed -- let it cover the surface, then take 3/4 out, repeat indefinitely.

Keep up those large water changes, and aim for a nitrate reading no higher than 40ppm before a water change.


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

*Tks bae*

Thanks there BAE, Sent you a private email in response to your post as I have a thread similiar to this one already regarding my tank problems......
cheers!!!!!

Riceburner, in total agreement with what you are saying especially from what i have been reading in other forums and in GTA.....

Tks everyone
sheldon


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

fish_luva said:


> Thanks there BAE, Sent you a private email in response to your post as I have a thread similiar to this one already regarding my tank problems......
> cheers!!!!!
> 
> Riceburner, in total agreement with what you are saying especially from what i have been reading in other forums and in GTA.....
> ...


Oh man you're out in the 'shwwwaaaaa'. If you're closer I'd give you some of my duckweed to help your tank out. I did a little check on google and found a product by Seachem called De-Nitrate which you could put in some cheeze cloth or the garlic mesh bag and soak in the tank for a while just to keep things nice and low.

Edit: -BAD- typo on the 'duckweed'. I blame QWERTY. ROTFL...


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

AquaNeko said:


> Oh man you're out in the 'shwwwaaaaa'. If you're closer I'd give you some of my fuckweed to help your tank out. I did a little check on google and found a product by Seachem called De-Nitrate which you could put in some cheeze cloth or the garlic mesh bag and soak in the tank for a while just to keep things nice and low.


Tks for the info... will research that online and take a look for it at the LFS....ya... right on the whitby/schwwwwaaa border.. 

thanks again... i hope something works soon before i lose them....
cheers!!!!
sheldon


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

fish_luva said:


> Tks for the info... will research that online and take a look for it at the LFS....ya... right on the whitby/schwwwwaaa border..
> 
> thanks again... i hope something works soon before i lose them....
> cheers!!!!
> sheldon


ROTFL.. OMG... My bad. That was a bad typo. ROTFL...QWERTY keyboard layout can make that duckweed come out two bad ways.

Check locally if anyone has that de-nitrate product. Also ease on the water changes slowly if the water is not the same temp (aged for like 5-10hours to room temp) so you don't get thermoshock on the fish. Hey you're part of GTAA now so if you bought that denitrate product ask around who wants some and sell the left overs when things stablize so it's not a loss to buy it to save those fish. Not sure how large your JD's are.


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## fish_luva (Nov 24, 2009)

AquaNeko said:


> ROTFL.. OMG... My bad. That was a bad typo. ROTFL...QWERTY keyboard layout can make that duckweed come out two bad ways.
> 
> Check locally if anyone has that de-nitrate product. . Not sure how large your JD's are.


Heh heh heh again Aqua..... LOL,,, ya i was going to make a quick return on that spelling misdemeanor... but i was worried i might get repremanded for it  I did know what you meant though......Well the nitrates are in check,,,, filters were cleaned out the other day and another water change... Hornwort was added and guess what i did today.... AND IT'S WORKING.... it's been over 2 weeks.. no food for the big guy.. 9.5 inch jack tip to tip.... Well he buried his head in a small pot all day today and did not move and has been looking terrible for last 2 days..... Well,,, i picked up some sea-chem metroplex (metronidazole) because he's been crapping pure white jelly... well guess what... 2 hours later,, he's back moving around the tank and chasing the little one.. something he has not done in a bit and he's looking really good..actually swimming around.... I don't know if it's cooicidence or what but i'm going to go with.. it's working.. gave the tank 8.5 level doses......
Hope i didn't do wrong... but i had no time to wait so i tried it.... next i was going to do something for gills and stuff.. but let's see if they eat tonight...
cheers!!!


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