# My Pandorarium Project



## Talmon Firestone

Hello Everyone,

As I wrote in the introduction section, I'm starting a Paludarium Project with the theme of trying to create a Pandora like environment based on the movie Avatar. I figure this is a very ambitious project and considering that I have ZERO experience with aquariums, terrariums, or anything else related, I'm probably in over my head. Whatever, "balls to the wall" as they say. 

Here's where I started... Looking into real world Bioluminescence, I found out that it is possible to have in some reef aquariums in the form of luminescent bacteria that forms in the sand. It only glows in perfectly dark room and after some agitation of the bottom of the tank so this was really not impactful enough for me.

So I decided to research fluorescence... I read about the new "GloFish" that became available in the US a while back which would look VERY good under black light. But I also wanted to know if it's possible to have fluorescent plants. In fact there are two ways that I found. The first is by "feeding" the plants Quinine. Quinine is a naturally occurring substance taken from the bark of the Cinchona tree and has been used by a kid in an experiment to cause fluorescence in plants:

http://www.instructables.com/community/Fluorescent_Plants/

I plan to contact him soon but I'm curious about how to isolate the Quinine plant "food" from the rest of the ecosystem just in case it's toxic to my fish and other land base creatures. In fact, I'm thinking that the only way to isolate it is to use it for the land plants only...

The second way to get Fluorescent plants is from Genetically Engineered plants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence_in_plants
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsc...ic_engineering_-_grafted_plants_trade_gen.php

If it would be possible to get a hold of some of these plants, they would probably make an excellent addition to such a "Pandorarium".

I'm planning to contact Professor Jodie Holt who was the adviser to James Cameron on all thinks biology for Avatar but I'll hold off until I have a much better understanding of how to make this project work first so that I don't waste her time with basic stuff that I should learn first before talking to her.

So, on to other ideas so far...

Since there is a heavy blue theme in Avatar, I'm strongly considering to include one or more blue fiddler crabs and perhaps some other blue shrimp or mini lobsters.

Also some other blue fish would be nice but I have to figure out which are the prettiest fresh water fish to include as I believe Paludariums pretty much have to be fresh water.

I haven't nailed down design and layout yet but I have loads of ideas.

I picked up a nice 40 gallon tank from PetsMart last week for a mere $30 which I think was probably a steal/price error... Next, I want to pick up some flame moss or other nice mosses to grow in smaller bowls or whatever to learn how they grow. I'm also planning to pick up some cork bark from the Cork House in Oakville this coming weekend.

http://corkhouse.com/

I asked and they do have a large quantity of cork bark to choose from at reasonable prices.

I want everything inside this tank to be natural so I'm avoiding the use of foam or "great stuff" for creating the land portions. Earlier today I was thinking of ways to create drainage for the land portions as well as a hidden pump system to get water to a "floating island I want to create where the a water fall will come from. You know, mimicking the floating islands in the movie. 

I plan to use a filter system for the water areas just to be sure although I'm hoping to avoid drilling holes into the bottom of the tank and having a hidden yet external plumbing system for the project as that seems out of my league for the time being. If I can fit it in the tank in hidden corners that I can easily access for maintenance, that'll be my goal.

Any thoughts, comments and advice would be GREATLY appreciated! I'll be posting lots of pictures as this project advances. 

Thanks,
Talmon


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## qwerty

> I'm hoping to avoid drilling holes into the bottom of the tank and having a hidden yet external plumbing system for the project *as that seems out of my league for the time being*


I lol'd...

Not to shoot your dreams down or anything, but I think you're a little over your head with this idea already, never mind the plumbing.

Hobbyists will go to some pretty extreme lengths to acquire rare plants and specimens, and I have never seen a light-emitting plant used in this hobby despite that.

You say you've never set up an aquarium? I personally think this idea is a little on the unrealistic side... Maybe if you get enough experience working with plants and aquatic life, then you could create something closer to your vision, but I don't think you'll ever have much luck getting exactly what you're dreaming of.

Gotta remember that plants can require pretty specific environments... Especially when you get into the rare exotics. That's why they're rare and exotic. Not everyone can keep them, let alone together.

Not to mention that you could be looking at thousands of dollars to make this happen.


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## Chris S

The best thing for you to do is start with some commonly available plants and animals to get the eco-system up and running. Plus this will help to gain some experience.

From there, you can begin tinkering it towards your end-goal. 

Don't discount your ideas, but look at it as an end result that make take a few years to attain. You will likely find that your end result is nothing like you planned, yet in fact better than what you had hoped for!

Good luck.


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey Chris, you're absolutely right and I started out my planning with that perspective in mind.

I don't plan to rush this and I've always been a long term thinker/doer anyway. 

My GF is also going to start a similar project but a few months after I start mine so that we can learn from v1 before starting v2. I also imagine that over the next several years this will have multiple version. 

Right now, I just have my 40 gallon tank sitting on it's side waiting. This weekend I get cork bark and hopefully find some aquarium moss samples to start playing with.

Speaking of which, I was told by a helpful employee at PetSmart that there is an aquatic plant store somewhere around King and Spadina or somewhere close but she wasn't able to remember the name. Do any of you know it?

Also, I was given the following list of stores to visit where I can start to pick the brains of the people there:

Reptilia in Vaughn
Joe's Tank (I can't find anything online about this place?)
PJ's Pets
Big Al's in Oakville

I want to start with the plants first to learn how to grow and maintain them and then slowly start adding fish and other species as I research which will live peacefully together.

To qwerty:
I'm sure I am over my head but that's no reason not to try or dream big...  Whatever comes of my efforts should be interesting and fun at the very least. 

Oh, that reminds me, I've already decided that bio-luminescence isn't feasible but to add to my idea of possibly finding fluorescent plants or making normal plants fluoresce, I was also thinking about using strategically placed underwater LEDs to create the illusion of bio-luminescence. Here is an example of a company that makes such products:

http://www.aquariumledlighting.co.uk/

Cheers,
Talmon


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## Chris S

I see you live around the Danforth. Might I suggest you never visit a Petsmart again and ignore the advice given to you by them? 

Visit Menagerie on Parliament.


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## Tropicana

Listen to Chris S. lol... big huge branch stores 'generally' aren't the best advisors.


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## ameekplec.

Chris S said:


> I see you live around the Danforth. Might I suggest you never visit a Petsmart again and ignore the advice given to you by them?
> 
> Visit Menagerie on Parliament.


+1

Menagerie probably, no definitely, has the best plant selection in Toronto.

If you're looking for cheap already made up submersible LEDs, I got some from an ebay place in China that were really cheap and do a decent job.

If you had the technical know-how, getting simple organisms (single celled organisms) to flouresce isn't that hard, but to get them to bioluminesce, they probably have to have evolved that mechanism (like bioluminescent insects, fungi, squid, jellyfish, etc) - although I'm not 100% on that.

Edit - PSA - Don't genetically modify things for the hell of it


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## Talmon Firestone

Ha, thanks for the reminder about Menagerie! I've probably walked by that place 1000 times LITERALLY but because I hadn't been thinking about all this in the past, I just didn't recall that place. Soooo close, gonna check them out tomorrow or the day after. 

I didn't expect PetSmart to be "the place to go" but it was simply my first stop AND the best advice I got from them was a whispered "Don't buy fish or stands from us but shhhhhh." hahaha Then I got that list of other places.

I'm not a genetic engineer myself so I would be "playing god"... The only genetically engineered plants that I'm interested in are those ones that were engineered to have the natural fluorescent genes that the researchers use as markets but that I could use for my Pandorarium project. 

Also, thanks for the eBay suggestion, I'll check it out. 

Cheers,
Talmon


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## qwerty

Does it have to be all organic? I've seen some glow in the dark fake plants that might work for what you're going after?


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## bae

Remember that fish are living creatures that are adapted to natural environments. Using them as weird ornaments without considering their needs as animals will result in stress, which will result in sickness and death. This will hit you in the wallet even if their suffering doesn't move you.

Why not just scrap the idea of fish and plants and set this thing up with plastic stuff? Much cheaper in both the long and short run, and much less to learn about maintaining living things in a restricted environment. I've seen exhibits where fish were swimming with various props, and they always look bad to me. Real living things make the props look wrong. Since what you're really interested in is the props, don't bother with the fish.


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## Talmon Firestone

I was interested in starting a Paludarium before I had the idea of using Avatar as a theme! Also, if it was just about props, then I could just wait for Hasbro or whoever to come out with Avatar toys but as much as I liked the movie, I'm not THAT much of a fan! 

My whole point is to make this a challenge and hopefully create something very unique and beautiful! I don't want to use plastic plants and I'm only willing to go as far as to use submersible LEDs when it comes to using non-living things in the environment. 

Also, the fun of this project will be to research how to make it a healthy and sustainable ecosystem while still making it beautiful and Pandora like.  For example, I'm thinking about creating at least one "floating" island like in the movie where the connecting structure and a pipe for my waterfall will be concealed from view, creating the illusion of the floating island with a waterfall coming from it... Like in the movie...  hehe

Doing something like that is more of a design issue than a constraint and I can't see how choices like that would be a problem. I do understand that seeking genetically engineered fluorescent plants may be a far stretch but they are actually natural and healthy plants. In fact as I was researching botany, I learned that we have been genetically engineering plants for thousands of years via the bonding of two plants from layering two species of plant and having them bond and share genetic material. (There is another term that's more descriptive than layering but I can't remember right now)

Anyhow, point being that I want to do this with real plants, fish, crustaceans and probably amphibians as well IF and on IF I can confirm that there will be a safe and stress free community from the species' that I pick.


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## Talmon Firestone

BTW, I've attached a picture of one of the most beautiful Paludariums I've ever seen! This is NOT mine, it's just inspiration for me.


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## Talmon Firestone

So I've got my first plant to start experimenting with aquatic plant growth.

I picked up a fresh batch of Flame Moss from Menagerie!

I decided to start with a moss because of how robust they all are and how apparently easy they are to grow. In order to experiment and learn, I've separated my batch into 4 bowls. In the picture I'm attaching, you'll see a loose growing bunch in one bowl and another bunch that I attached to a backyard rock using fishing line. I decided to be meticulous about my attaching experiment and used tweezers to individually place each strand of flame moss in a row on either side of the rock to see how well they grow from there. The two bowls pictured are in front of a North facing window that will never get direct sunlight.

I have two other bowls, both of free growing moss in front of a south facing window that will get a lot of direct sun light. The only difference between those two south facing bowls is that one is a normal bunch and the other bowl contains only the ugliest, nearly dead moss that I could pick out to see if it's possible to rejuvenate them as I've read on some people's blogs. 

All bowls have standard Toronto tap water in them but in hind sight, I should have probably tried to use some kind of mineral rich bottled water in at least one bowl? I figured tap water would be fine because I read somewhere that you can actually clean aquatic moss of algae by using a 5% bleach solution for a couple minutes and then rinse them off and that won't kill them. 

Thoughts, suggestions? I still havn't made it out to Oakville to pick up cork bark for my Paludarium background but hopefully this weekend. 

Cheers everyone,
T.


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## gucci17

All i can say is you've got some serious patience lol!

What I'm wondering is...how'd you get a 40 gal tank for $30?!?!


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## Talmon Firestone

gucci17 said:


> All i can say is you've got some serious patience lol!
> 
> What I'm wondering is...how'd you get a 40 gal tank for $30?!?!


Hey Gucci17, it's true I do have a lot of patience but I'm committed to making a VERY cool Paludarium and I wanna do it right.

What I'd really like is some insight into peoples experience growing mosses.

The 40 Gal tank for $30 came from PetSmart at Laird & Eglington. It's about 36x16x18 plus some fractional inches here and there. I went back a week or two ago and the price tag on the shelf was still there but they were sold out. You could check it out and ask to reserve one for them to order?

Cheers,
T.


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## gucci17

Is it a 40gallon breeder dimension 36"L x 18"W x 16"Tall ?


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## officerben

Talmon Firestone said:


> I haven't nailed down design and layout yet but I have loads of ideas.
> 
> I picked up a nice 40 gallon tank from PetsMart last week for a mere $30 which I think was probably a steal/price error... Next, I want to pick up some flame moss or other nice mosses to grow in smaller bowls or whatever to learn how they grow. I'm also planning to pick up some cork bark from the Cork House in Oakville this coming weekend.
> 
> http://corkhouse.com/
> 
> I asked and they do have a large quantity of cork bark to choose from at reasonable prices.
> 
> I want everything inside this tank to be natural so I'm avoiding the use of foam or "great stuff" for creating the land portions. Earlier today I was thinking of ways to create drainage for the land portions as well as a hidden pump system to get water to a "floating island I want to create where the a water fall will come from. You know, mimicking the floating islands in the movie.
> 
> I plan to use a filter system for the water areas just to be sure although I'm hoping to avoid drilling holes into the bottom of the tank and having a hidden yet external plumbing system for the project as that seems out of my league for the time being. If I can fit it in the tank in hidden corners that I can easily access for maintenance, that'll be my goal.
> 
> Any thoughts, comments and advice would be GREATLY appreciated! I'll be posting lots of pictures as this project advances.
> 
> Thanks,
> Talmon


How much cork bark do you need?


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey Everyone,

Sorry for the very late reply, got sick, had an e-mail melt down at work and other such life drama. 

I have an update to my flame moss experimentation, etc but first I'll reply to people who've posted since I've last been here.

To gucci17, yes, it's a breeder tank with those dimensions. Even though most Palludarium projects call for a taller tank, I really liked the idea of having a wider one and people I had spoken to suggested that fish generally prefer wider environments anyway.

To Officerben, I don't know exactly how much cork bark I want but when I finally went to the Cork House, I found out that they don't keep their cork bark at their display office, only at their warehouse and that the warehouse is only open on week days, 9-5. So far I haven't been able to take time off work to go there. BUT... They apparently have tonnes and tonnes of all kinds of different shapes and cuts of cork bark and I plan to sift through what they have to choose what will be the nicest way to back my palludarium, etc. Their prices are also between 1/2 to 1/3 compared to the price of cork bark from places like Big Al's or Menagerie. 

Now, I'm attaching 4 pictures today. Two are the updated versions of the two indirect sunlight control groups and two more are new pictures of the direct sunlight control groups. For the first couple of weeks, I saw very little change/growth/anything in any of the control groups during which time I also read the book "The simple guide to Planted Aquariums" by Terry anne Barber & Rhonda Wilson. I also purchased and started to apply Seachem Flourish Excel (CO2) and Flourish Iron as well. So far I've only been testing for KH and all my groups have been stable at about 90 ppm or about 5 degrees KH.

Now for the control group:
Direct Sun-1.jpg had JUST gotten a 100% water change because there was a LOT of green spot/water algae growth and I wanted to re-set the environment before I took the picture. In hind sight, I probably should have taken the picture first...  Anyhow, this set looks VERY green but I suspect that the green comes from algae growth on the flame moss itself. I also suspect a small amount of hair algae or black brush algae growth as well but it's hard to see in this picture for now.

Direct Sun-2.jpg is a larger group that has only had a 50% water change recently. It's looking good but I still suspect algae growth, in particular you can see what I think is hair or staghorn algae growing on the flame moss that's attached to the small piece of wood. In the top left quarter of the dish, it looks like there's a lot of hair algae but this is actually just discoloration in the picture caused by air bubbles that I pushed up into that area so that the rest of the dish would be clearer for the picture. This control group produces the most amount of oxygen clearly!

Both of my indirect sun control groups show very little change at all, perhaps a little growth although they aren't as green as they were when I first purchased the moss and took the first pictures. 

I think at this point I would probably learn more by actually setting up my tank and controlling my light and water conditions more closely. 

Thoughts, comments?

P.S. Yes, I have a LOT of patience!

P.P.S. After reading the forums a bit, I just decided to add a double dose of Excel to my two direct sun control groups to see how well this works as an algae treatment.


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## NuclearTech

Hey there!

I'm looking at your pictures. They are not labeled, so I'm not sure of each of their conditions. I'm by no means a plant expert, so take my opinion as just that; an opinion.

Your moss in pic one looks healthy. As in, green.

The other three look brown. As in, less healthy. Could that just be the photo?


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey Nucleartech (Funny name, I actually work in the nuclear industry. I'm a partner at www.nsd-fusion.com)

Anyhow, you're right that the first picture is the greenest and the others are less green.

The thing is, the first two pics are direct sun groups and the first one that is greenest had just had the bowl cleaned from an aglae bloom so I suspect that the vibrant green is a mix of healthy moss plus very green algae on the moss itself. Both of the direct sun groups are indeed greener than the indirect sun groups which is kind of a no brainer only I wanted to learn about algae growth so I accomplished that. 

My next move is to start actually setting up the palludarium with more controlled environmental conditions.

Cheers,
T.


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## Talmon Firestone

So I've started to narrow down my design ideas and thought I'd see what you guys think.

Here are some really inspirational links first:

Cools Plants:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinlabar/galleries/72157622283004277/
http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/photo/lichens.html
http://www.andrewspink.nl/mosses/thumbnails.htm

Vivariums:
http://imageevent.com/audiomaster/tincvivarium
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/terrarium/gal0301142719306.html
http://www.wildsky.net/vivarium/evivariu.htm

Aquariums:
http://mostinterestingblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/amazing-aquariums-incredible-work.html

Paludariums:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/paludariums/65424-streambank-paludarium.html

So, with all that looked at, I'm a terrible artist so I'll do my best to describe what I'm planning to do in text.

I have a 36x18x16 40 Gallon Breeder. I'm thinking creating an angular separation of land and water starting from let's say 8" left front going back toward the back right. The left area being land, right being water. I'm going to buy cork bark for the backing of the air portion. To create some kind of symetrical contrast, I'm going to use driftwood that will emerge from the water area to create a tree like feel on the right above water. On land, I want to have a waterfall that flows into a small pool on the left that itself then drains back into the water area on the right.

I really like how Takashi Amano uses white sand in his aquatic substrate so I'm thinking of doing that with a gradual shift to rocks or other darker substrate of varying leveling rather than a perfectly flat area. I like the idea of gradating underwater surface area. The same for the land portion as well.

I REALLY seem to have fallen in love with mosses, both aquatic and land based. I also think I want to use some Lichens in the land area. My plan is to go for the most alien looking plant species possible and I'm even thinking about using carnivorous plants although I'll have to do more research to figure out what temperature and humidity I want to end up using and which plants best live in whatever conditions I settle on.

For aquatic life, I'm again planning on the most alien looking fish so Neon Tetras are good. I also like those clear see through cat fish types as well. Also, probably some really colorful shrimp would look great too but considering that I think my sea portion will only end up being about 15 gallons, I won't be able to have a huge community.

For land, I'm thinking about some type of attractive frog. I'm also partial to newts but I suspect they'll be less community friendly as they'll be able to pass from land to water more easily. Still need to figure that out.

If anyone can suggest really crazy plants, fish and land life, I'd really appreciate it. When it comes to the plants on land, I really haven't read up as much as I have for the aquatic area yet. I suspect the aquatic zone will require FAR more maintenance than my land area. 

Cheers All!


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## Cory

As others have said, get familiar with the life you'll be taking care of first, go wild later. I think in this respect you may be better off with an aquarium and a terrarium before you go for the paludarium. Even the most well prepared new fish keepers will usually make a few mistakes and kill off a fish here and there so by combining two new hobbies you're multiplying the recipe for disaster. I picture a lot of time and effort put into a tank full of dead and dying fish and reptiles. You seem to be a pretty intelligent guy so I hope you can respect where that's coming from. 

Once you know how to keep the animals happy, then I think you have a super neat idea! You might have trouble cultivating some of the terrestrial plants you sought since they seem to require very cold environments which would kill fish and reptiles but I'm sure you can find some weird looking tropical plants out there too. Heck, I've seen plenty of odd ones in the Caribbean alone!

I breed some fish that will glow very eerily under a black or near black light. They're probably not the best starter fish due to an increased sensitivity to toxins but they aren't very difficult to keep once you have a little experience under your belt and they don't take up much space . I have another fish whose spots do the same but it is a large predatory fish and unsuitable for your setup. There is a lot of really neat and weird stuff out there and Im sure you can get something really cool going once you know your stuff!


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## KhuliLoachFan

May I be the fifty-second person to point out to you that your tastes are going to change radically from when you start this hobby to when you settle a bit.

Most people go through a blue-puke gravel phase. It is laudable that you're skipping that, but you are starting out with a wild concept, without having the basics down of running an aquarium. I would think you could start out with a plants-only terarrium or a fish-only aquarium with fish and submersed aquatic plants before you try to combine the two into a paludarium. Running the 40g as an aquarium first, while making experiments on the terrarium etc, would be preferable, and then mix/match combine the successful elements.

I am looking to do something similar and I'm looking for a way to make a small jungle-like environment with a misting device to keep the humidity near 100%, and appropriate lighting to grow some interesting plants. 

I will not have any fully aquatic livestock in it, but it might contain some kind of tiny semi-aquatic frog, if there is one that would enjoy an environment like that.

I also think a brackish mudskipper biotope tank would be really cool. If only I could find a source for mudskippers in toronto.

W


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey Cory, thanks for the advice and I agree whole heartedly. This is a slow moving project for me in which I intend to learn each step in detail to ensure the highest quality results. I have lots of patience and an inquiring mind. 

With that said, I have an interesting update that requires the attention of some of you experts! 

One of my 4 flame moss control groups started to develop small patches of some strange mucous? Here are some pictures although they are VERY blurry so I don't know if they'll help at all? This mucous ONLY appears in my control group that has developed hair algae. 

The first two pictures show the mucous in the center of the circle I drew but they are VERY VERY hard to see. The third picture is of some moss and mucous on my finger. The mucous seems to grow in a ball around the center of a strand of flame moss and it's surprisingly substantial in form. It doesn't smush under the touch like a near liquid, rather it is "hard" enough to resist when squeezed.

What could this be?


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## Talmon Firestone

Yes you may be the 52nd.  I still stubbornly plan to make this a paludarium but I am going to go through each step individually and in some order. 

Brackish setups seem FAR more complicated than a "simple" paludarium.  And from what I remember, Menagerie Pet shop downtown on Parliament south of Welesley has mudskippers!


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## trailblazer295

Talmon Firestone said:


> Hey Chris, you're absolutely right and I started out my planning with that perspective in mind.
> 
> I don't plan to rush this and I've always been a long term thinker/doer anyway.
> 
> My GF is also going to start a similar project but a few months after I start mine so that we can learn from v1 before starting v2. I also imagine that over the next several years this will have multiple version.
> 
> Right now, I just have my 40 gallon tank sitting on it's side waiting. This weekend I get cork bark and hopefully find some aquarium moss samples to start playing with.
> 
> Speaking of which, I was told by a helpful employee at PetSmart that there is an aquatic plant store somewhere around King and Spadina or somewhere close but she wasn't able to remember the name. Do any of you know it?
> 
> Also, I was given the following list of stores to visit where I can start to pick the brains of the people there:
> 
> Reptilia in Vaughn
> Joe's Tank (I can't find anything online about this place?)
> PJ's Pets
> Big Al's in Oakville
> 
> I want to start with the plants first to learn how to grow and maintain them and then slowly start adding fish and other species as I research which will live peacefully together.
> 
> To qwerty:
> I'm sure I am over my head but that's no reason not to try or dream big...  Whatever comes of my efforts should be interesting and fun at the very least.
> 
> Oh, that reminds me, I've already decided that bio-luminescence isn't feasible but to add to my idea of possibly finding fluorescent plants or making normal plants fluoresce, I was also thinking about using strategically placed underwater LEDs to create the illusion of bio-luminescence. Here is an example of a company that makes such products:
> 
> http://www.aquariumledlighting.co.uk/
> 
> Cheers,
> Talmon


As insanely cool as a bio-luminescence fish tank would be it's impossible for us to create. The fact these fish live at such high pressure from the depth along with there feeding habits, water conditions, hunting style, behavior everything would be impossible to replicate because there world is high pressure and complete darkness. Your idea still sounds very cool even if you have to dial it back a bit. Good luck and post pics.


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## Cory

The "mucous" looks like algae to me.  Hard to tell from the pic though.


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey Everyone,

I finally drove out to Halton to buy Cork Bark from the Cork Factory there.

I got 3 lbs of it for a smidge over $20 which is a LOT cheaper than buying it anywhere downtown! AND... they have loads of selection!

Here are some pics of the bark which I plan to use as a backing for my land area. Now all I need to find is a place that can custom cut me some glass or acrylic to create my divider and then I'll be ready to start building the project officially! 

I was also able to trick my camera into taking a good photo of that Mucous that's been growing in one of my flame moss control groups.

Pics attached for both bark and mucous.  I'm REALLY REALLY curious about the mucous as it's the strangest stuff I've ever seen in this context!


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## TBemba

I assume you can get this stuff wet? I mean cork is used in wine bottles.

What would be the ramifications of submersing the Cork Bark over a long period of time?

I guess my question is could this be used for background of an Aquarium? What would the problems be other than weighing the stuff down?


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey TBemba,

I plan to use the cork bark to back my above water area but here is a link to a guy who used the cork bark under water. You can see a picture of it in the third pick down from the top.

http://www.nattarbox.com/projects/turtlevivarium/journal.html

The cork bark has been pre-steam treated to kill all infections or other biological matter BUT the guy at the warehouse said that this is not 100% perfect. Also, putting it under water would cause the tannins to seep out and discolor the water.

The solution to this is to soak the cork bark for one or two weeks with regular water changes in order to "wash" out the tannins and water log the cork so that it doesn't float. Then after the water logging, boil it for an hour to make extra sure that it's been sterilized before using it in your own aquarium.

To all you aquarium experts out there... Is my advice sound?


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## TBemba

Talmon Firestone said:


> Hey TBemba,
> 
> I plan to use the cork bark to back my above water area but here is a link to a guy who used the cork bark under water. You can see a picture of it in the third pick down from the top.
> 
> http://www.nattarbox.com/projects/turtlevivarium/journal.html
> 
> The cork bark has been pre-steam treated to kill all infections or other biological matter BUT the guy at the warehouse said that this is not 100% perfect. Also, putting it under water would cause the tannins to seep out and discolor the water.
> 
> The solution to this is to soak the cork bark for one or two weeks with regular water changes in order to "wash" out the tannins and water log the cork so that it doesn't float. Then after the water logging, boil it for an hour to make extra sure that it's been sterilized before using it in your own aquarium.
> 
> To all you aquarium experts out there... Is my advice sound?


I figured as much 

It looks freakin sweet under water IMO and the tannins are just an added bonus. I like the look the fish like the look (in nature water looks like this)

I think I might get some for a cool background where is the place?

Better still Pm me the address I would hate for anyone else to think this a good idea and the company runs out of cork bark before I get any.
It's not like this stuff grows on trees


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## Talmon Firestone

Hey Everyone,

I've started and completed a side terrarium project in a few hours. I went out and got the nicest river side moss I could find from a bike path just east of Glenwood Crescent & O'Connor Drive.

When I got home, I took a nice glass bowl, lay down a base of gravel, then a layer of pete-moss soil because apparently land mosses thrive in this kind of soil and then lay down my cutting of moss on top. In the bunch I got, I was also able to get a bit of grass and two plants that I cannot identify yet. 

Here are some pictures. Now if I can keep this setup alive for a significant time, the experience will be worth it.


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## Talmon Firestone

Things are moving forward now.  I had a glass divider cut to separate my land and water sections. I went with a 30x10" sheet of glass that I've silicone glued inside the tank starting from the front left corner moving at an angle to the back wall. The result is that my water area will be approximately 18-19 gallons. I've decided to use an EHeim 2213 Classic filter as it's quite and will easily take care of my aquatic volume. My first water test showed a bit of leakage so I added a second layer of silicone and will test for leaks again tonight.


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## trailblazer295

We need pics


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## Talmon Firestone

Ok ok, here are two pics. 

In hind sight, I should have probably gone with 30"x9" for the divider as I now only have 6" clearance from the top for my terrestrial section but oh well, next time. 

One way to remedy this would be to have the terrestrial section grow above and out of the aquarium BUT then it would be harder/impossible to include terrestrial life like a frog or salamander as I wouldn't know how to prevent escape in that case. 

The cork bark there is the smaller of the two pieces and it's just sitting there, not fully attached yet. I'm thinking of using this piece and have the waterfall pump runt behind it to the left where there is some room left to have a water fall but that depends on the structure I will use for that waterfall. I MAY go with my larger cord bark piece and cut the waterfall out from within it!


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## Talmon Firestone

*Long Awated Update*

Wow, talk about picking this up again a looooong time afterward. My first venture into aquariums was an eye opener and I've learned a lot in the last year by taking it very slowly!

So I started off with two 1.5 liter nano tanks, all natural with no filter or any other equipment. I even started with only aquatic plants, bladder snails and another type of aquatic snail that I don't know the name of. After half a year of wonderful growth I added two baby Blood Red Balloon Platys transferred from a friend's tank. You can see the two Nano tanks with the second one having the two Platy's in it although you can only see one in the pic.

At the beginning of November, I was inspired to buy a 10 gallon tank to transfer everything into it and take the next step in growing the project. I still have that 40 gallon monster sitting on a desk in my room and I don't think I'll attempt that bad boy for at least another half year to a year. Also, since I had so much luck without using any aquarium equipment, running the two Nano's as all natural tanks, I decided I'll attempt the same with the 10 gallon.

So! I cleaned the substrate, prepared water, found an AMAZING piece of wood (Boiled it for 4-5 hours and then let it soak for 24 with 3 water changes to get rid of the tannins) with a grumpy old mans face it in that is just AMAZING and set up the tank. I waited 4-5 days to let the kicked up sediment settle, then put in some of the plants and then I two days later I put in the rest of the plants, only the bladder snails and two fish.

The pictures are as follows:
November 9th - first plants put over (You can see the water is still a bit murky from sediment and micro air bubbles)

November 11th - the rest of the plants, snails and fish put over. (Water still murky but looking good with everything in there)

In the follow two weeks, I had a some wisps of bacteria "fog" that would roll around the bottom of the tank and also right bellow the surface. Occasionally I'd get little "towers" of this "fog" that looked a lot like smoke rising off a cigarette but I figured all this was just from the new tank cycle with increased ammonia. My water tests never showed significant rises in amonia though and the "fog/smoke" never got bigger than a few wisps and banks at the bottom. You can see them under the chin of the old man face in my Nov 28th picture.

November 28th - Bacteria wisps are diminishing, algae is growing well but not out of control, the snails are breeding like CRAZY and you can see their egg sacks all over the place and the plants are growing so well that I'm using clippings to expand their growth and fill out the background of the tank.

December 15th - The plants grow WAY TOO FAST! I guess this setup is working very well. I threw out my first clipping today because I don't have any room for it.

Here are the details of what's in the tank plus my final thoughts:

Foreground plant: Glossostigma elatinoides (It's growing vertically now which the internet tells me is about not having enough light. I thought they looked better flat on the ground in the nano tanks but they don't look too bad in the bigger one growing vertically either.)

Foreground/Midground plant: Hydrocotyle verticillata (I thought that these would grow taller than the first plant and so I put them in the mid area but with the vertical growth of the first plant, it's harder to see these ones. Ultimately I hope they just grow and mix together.)

Background: Cabomba caroliniana (In the nano's they grow bushier, in this bigger tank, the trunks grow tall and I don't think that looks as good and must relate to being farther from the light source but now that there are sooo many of them and so close together, they look pretty good.)

Left: Egeria najas (I wasn't a fan of this plant in my nanos but I kept one just for fun and put it on the left of the tank in the foreground since the wood creates a dark dead zone in the back left of the tank and I put these taller plants in front to cover the hole. It seems to produce a good effect.)

Fish and Snails: 2 Blood Red Balloon Platys and Bladder Snails (The snails are happy as heck and breeding like rabbits. The two Platy's seem to be very happy, they are very active, swimming around everywhere all the time and they are starting to grow again after having had their growth stunted from living in the confined space of the nano tank they were in earlier. The two Platys also seem to be eating most of the snail eggs so that's keeping the snail population in check.  )

Lastly, I do a 10% water change 2-3 times a week and I'm about to do my second algae scrub off the walls in a week or so since this tank was started over a month ago. Having everything go so well has convinced me that running an all natural tank without filters or heaters is an easy and great alternative to getting all the fancy equipment. So far so good.


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## Talmon Firestone

Just so you guys can see how bloody fast my plants are growing, it's been only 4.5 days since I clipped the Cabomba caroliniana by about 40% and they have reached the top of the water again! Is this level of plant growth normal or have I just had amazing luck setting up a very healthy eco-system?

Here are two more pics.


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## ccmerlot

I like your idea of going all-natural. The glow-in-the-dark theme doesn't really appeal to me personally, and the glowing Danios are illegal in Canada (and i'm OK with that: genetically modified pets don't appeal to me either; seems cruel. PJ's had on sale recently some brightly dyed tetras, which also seems cruel. The fish were put in an acidic bath to peel off the protective slime coat, bleached, dyed and then supposedly the slime coat was 'reapplied' somehow. Most of the fish lost their colour in a few weeks. They were labelled "Popcorn Fish" or some such thing, now they're just called "white skirt tetras").
Back to my point though: in my, very brief so far, experience, plant and algae growth are light-dependent. How long to you leave the light on? And what is the wattage?


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## Talmon Firestone

ccmerlot said:


> I like your idea of going all-natural. The glow-in-the-dark theme doesn't really appeal to me personally, and the glowing Danios are illegal in Canada (and i'm OK with that: genetically modified pets don't appeal to me either; seems cruel. PJ's had on sale recently some brightly dyed tetras, which also seems cruel. The fish were put in an acidic bath to peel off the protective slime coat, bleached, dyed and then supposedly the slime coat was 'reapplied' somehow. Most of the fish lost their colour in a few weeks. They were labelled "Popcorn Fish" or some such thing, now they're just called "white skirt tetras").
> Back to my point though: in my, very brief so far, experience, plant and algae growth are light-dependent. How long to you leave the light on? And what is the wattage?


It's a 13 Watt Fluval that's supposed to be for a 5-8g tank but I leave it on anywhere from 12-16 hours a day with the average leaning closer to 16 than 12. 

That's bleaching process does sound cruel. Genetic modification is not cruel at all since at a VERY base level, selective breeding (IE Dating) is a form of genetic modification...  hahaha Sorry to simplify but I love that perspective. But I understand that many people don't understand much about science and thus tend to play it safe with an all natural approach and ultimately that's the best thing for them to do anyway since from a philosophical point of view, actions should only be undertaken after fully researching the consequences. The whole reason why the Pandora perspective of this project is taking so long is because I'm taking the time to research and make sure I'm informed.  But I'm totally digressing. 

BTW, phosphorescence in animals and plants do occur naturally too, so it's not like it's some kind of purely industrial creation. 

But yeah, 13 Watts on a 10g tank. Could the amazing growth come from high quality nutrition from the snail/fish poop plus the substrate I got. I'm not 100% sure what brand substrate it was after all but the people at Menagerie in downtown Toronto helped me pick the most nutritious/"plant happy" substrate they had. 

And here are two updated pics after 10 days of growth.  Is that a normal amount of plant growth for 10 days?


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## fly4awhiteguy

Not sure if this helps, but i got this effect with a simple blue led to simulate moonlight in my planted aquarium.. It stiil needs the proper daylight cycle as well to keep the plants healthy though..... Forgive the low res pic plz...


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## Talmon Firestone

fly4awhiteguy said:


> Not sure if this helps, but i got this effect with a simple blue led to simulate moonlight in my planted aquarium.. It stiil needs the proper daylight cycle as well to keep the plants healthy though..... Forgive the low res pic plz...


Hey fly4awhiteguy, that's a really great effect! Now I'm inspired to research a blue LED DIY project for when the day lights are turned off. 

Thanks!


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## ccmerlot

That moonlight is beeautiful. 
I'll bet the substrata is a big factor in your growth: In one tank I put some Eco-Complete which has some fertilizer. The plants are thriving. However, when i test the water in that tank, it consistently has high nitrate levels and i suspect that is due to the fertilizer. (In another tank, i've used river-rock purchased at the dollar store: the plants doing great but the nitrate levels of the water are indeed lower.)
As to the light: i've read that 10-12 hours of light is more that sufficient. Longer could contribute in a big way to algea formation. On the other hand, growing plants, i'm told, will out-compete the algea for food. I guess a fine balance is required. (Myself i try to keep it closer to 10, but i work long shifts sometimes.)


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## Talmon Firestone

ccmerlot said:


> That moonlight is beeautiful.
> I'll bet the substrata is a big factor in your growth: In one tank I put some Eco-Complete which has some fertilizer. The plants are thriving. However, when i test the water in that tank, it consistently has high nitrate levels and i suspect that is due to the fertilizer. (In another tank, i've used river-rock purchased at the dollar store: the plants doing great but the nitrate levels of the water are indeed lower.)
> As to the light: i've read that 10-12 hours of light is more that sufficient. Longer could contribute in a big way to algea formation. On the other hand, growing plants, i'm told, will out-compete the algea for food. I guess a fine balance is required. (Myself i try to keep it closer to 10, but i work long shifts sometimes.)


I'm using the Fluval substrate for planted tanks and I'm not 100% sure if it's fertilized or just good for plant growth but I definitely don't have high nitrate levels. All my water quality indicators are always good. 

I'm thinking that I probably leave my lights on too long (Close to 15-16 hours a day) as I generally put them on when I wake up and turn them off when I go to sleep. I'll probably reduce this cycle. I haven't had a major problem with algae thought but that could be because I have a good number of bladder snails working their butts off. 

Last week, in one corner I had a growth of something that looked a lot like hair algae or fuzz algae. I used a tooth brush to pull out the most of the longer bunches of it and I tried what one web site suggested, which was to dose the local area of algae with co2 (My flourish excel) which I did twice over two days. It seems to be receding now.

I find that if I'm diligent with my 10% water changes ever 2-3 days, the system keeps itself happy and healthy!  When I get lazy and wait 4-5 days for my 10% change, I notice the ecosystem shifting in less than desirable ways.


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## fly4awhiteguy

Talmon, im glad i could help, that specific plant is a sunset hygro... My other plants dont light up like that though, but i am sure there must be other plants that would. And as far as my substrate, i just used a bag of flourite(about 2"deep) under some plain gravel- same depth, and fertalize once a week. And at the mention of algea- i just noticed the beginnings of some black hair algea on 1 of my plants, so i guess its time to cut back a bit on the daylight hours. Ill try and post a better full tank pic as soon as i figure out how to post on here without cropping the photo down until its low res...


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## fly4awhiteguy

better pix @ http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m594/fly4awhiteguy1/new light/IMG_0617.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m594/fly4awhiteguy1/new light/IMG_0616.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m594/fly4awhiteguy1/new light/IMG_0619.jpg


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## df001

looks awesome! its got me thinking! hehehe especially like the second photo of the three


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## fly4awhiteguy

Thx  after many changes i am finally happy with the look of it... And i think the fish are happy too- no more teardowns. The light is brand new and the blue led is great.


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## Talmon Firestone

fly4awhiteguy said:


> Thx  after many changes i am finally happy with the look of it... And i think the fish are happy too- no more teardowns. The light is brand new and the blue led is great.


Oh those blue LEDs are SEXY! My brother just happened to have everything I need for a DIY LED moonlight setup so all I need to do is go buy 4 blue LEDs and put it all together. I guess that'll be my project for this coming weekend. 

Pics will come when it's done.


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