# Possible fish disease/health issue



## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Woke up to a dead cardinal after changing temp and adding water to tank.

1) 48 gallon long
2) was at 77f but i changed it to 75f thinking it would be okay last night
3) 0 ammonia
4) 0 nitrite
5) 0 nitrate
6) 7.4-7.6 pH
7) Soil capped with gravel substrate and lots of stem plants plus floaters
8) eheim 2217 filtration and has been 2weeks fully cycled. has been set up for one month
9) water change is 10% biweekly and always adding aged declor water 3-4 days for evaporation
10) Gold WCMM and glow light rasboras are tankmates
11) only new symptoms i can tell is that the cardinals have started to swim mid level and not hide. And this morning trying to feed them most of them are not eating anymore. 
12) recently started. they seemed fine yesterday though 
13) The action i took was turn the temp back up to 77F that is all
14) I have yet to yes any medications on the fish
15) I do not have a picture but the dead fish had no spots no finrot or weirdness to it. It was just found died on my gravel.

I just don't understand, can a drop in 2 degrees temperature cause this?


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

i have been feeding tetra flakes, HBH veggie spurilina flakes, and NLS small pellets. but most of the cardinals are still small and i have been crushing the flakes to feed them.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

My best guess would be new tank syndrome. Just because a filter was cycled for 2 weeks doesn't mean the whole tank is established. Cardinals can be finicky when it comes to a new tank, even one set up for a month is not an aged aquarium. 

That would be my best bet. How often do you preform water changes? and of what quantity?


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

3/4 of one 5 gallon bucket and 3/4 one 2.5 gallon bucket. which is about 10% of the water in the tank. i perform them biweekly but i always have aged water 2 gallons ready to top up the evaporation of water every 3-4 days when water level drops. Water temp in bucket is always room temp though.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

10% wc bi weekly?! That seems very low to me.... I usually do 30-40% weekly. This could be a route cause.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

I have read about it and people should not do huge water changes right off the bat because the fishes need to build up their system for it. so i will slowly increase my water changes in time. however, my dkh is 5 and dgh is 7 as i did not mention in my previous post


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Most CB's are tolerant to a wide range of hardness. So this really shouldn't be an issue, and regardless of what is said, you should still be preforming w/c's at least weekly. Also, it's no so the fish can build up their systems, it so the bacteria can begin to culture properly.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I would suggest going through the process of elimation

1) I would say dont worry about cycling or temperature yet. To verify this, check your Amonia and Nitrite only for the next 7 days every day, if they are always 0, you eliminated this issue already.... You said you have 0 of those, i am guessing you checked recently.

2) "Soil capped with gravel substrate and lots of stem plants plus floaters". Make sure the soil and gravel you used are safe, check with other members. If you are 100% certain this did not have any nasties inside, go to the next point.

3) "only new symptoms i can tell is that the cardinals have started to swim mid level and not hide. And this morning trying to feed them most of them are not eating anymore." The first point doesnt seem like a concern, unless they are all zoned out or poinsined. The second point could be an issue. 

So eliminate the possibility of something poisoning still in the water (new plant, soil, something dropped in water, metal in water, rocks not cleaned, poisonous plants not meant for aquarium, etc...), do a 40 - 50% water change tonight, followed by another 40 - 50% water change tomorow, and see how the fish react. Also, add new carbon to your filter for the next two days, and then remove it, to help remove any poisonous element, if this was indeed the culprit. Warning: DONOT panik and do a larger water change then mentioned, in fact, go with closer to 40% so you dont overdo it. Doing more may affect your fish negativery. Dont forget to add dechlorinator to the new water. Also, restrain from adding any plant additives for the next week at least as a minimum.

Also, try not to keep carbon in your filter for more than two days, and if you had some previous ones, throw them out. Carbon is to be used only when knowing an issue is present, then discarded.

I think doing the water change is the simplest thing you can do at this point.

Now, for the regular water change, you can do a 20 - 30% weekly no problem, or may not even need to depending what you add to your water and the levels or Nitrate specially, and also Amonia and Nitrite, and maybe the 10% you are currently doing is enough. You have to gauge that yourself, but 20% seems a good number to start and then see how you do.

Good Luck.

Edit: Honestly, if you hadnt mentioned the no eating part, i would say dont worry at all about it, fish could have had stressed from before or in new settings, and these things can happen. However, if many of your fish seem affected, then this means there would be a problem, thus simplest solution to do some water change, but not too much either.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I do about 25 percent wc monthly if that on my very well established tanks, I don't have nitrate problems due to the plants.

I just do enough water changes to keep nitrates down and to make sure there is some fresh water once in a while.

40 percent a week just sounds nuts to me, but I have well planted tanks and sometimes struggle to even have nitrates.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

pls note the 40% i mentioned was only to deal with possible toxins he may have somehow gotten in his tank, and is to simply eleminate this possibility. Note, I was not making the recommendation to do this weekly, only for the next 2 days and see what happens, in case his fish are really sick.

The normal water schedule is really up to each person to determine, but if you are begining at this hobby, a 20 - 30% weekly isnt a bad idea if your tank is established. Someone who has experience can do otherwise.

I had made a mistake in the past, and got the "Old Tank Syndrome". Read up on it Pyrolin, if you get the chance. Wont say anymore on it.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

my 55gallon has cichlids and a clarius catfish with a HOB filter... 40% weekly is the minimum I do to it, and it's very well established (about 3 years old). My turtles tank is another story. I do probably 85% bi-weekly. minimum I do is 50% bi-weekly on them. But I have a Rena XP4 running so the 55 gets turned over little more than 3 times hourly(180gallons rated filter.) 

And Zaf... he's got 2 R's in his name... c'mon now!


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Yea i test my parameters almost everyday and it is constantly at 0 so it must be an outside source. i have construction in the room and i cant move my tank. everyday though i cover the tank with bed sheets and take it out once they leave and i get home. I will go grab tank lids and do water changes when i get home then. Too bad bigals near my place will be closed once i leave work. The thing is once i remove the covers nothing seems to had entered the tank. the light fixture is not dusty so i presumed it was okay. i will keep a closer eye today.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

there are people who have understocked (or very little in terms of fish anyways) tanks and may get away with 6months water change, just one thing people sometimes forget, and which i made the mistake of, is TDS buildup. It is not only Amonia / Nitrite / Nitrate, there an increase of TDS over time, and if stocking is high, effects could be negative for your fish if new water is not added to diminish the quantities... just saying, there is more to it, and each system will be different, and many techniques may work, but the same will not work on another system.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Do you have Air Pumps on?


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

i do not have airpumps on just the agitation from my canister. what is TDS?


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Ok, I will gladly recommend large water changes of 50% or more weekly, in pretty much any situation. The water can't be too clean. And as mentioned, over time with additions of water to make up for evaporation, the TDS will rise so the new water coming in will be different than the existing tank water. The more often the water is changed, the more likely the parameters will stay pretty much the same. There is a video on You Tube of water changes on discus tanks in an Asian aquarium facility that might be a little enlightening for those afraid of large water changes.
With this case here, the situation may be simply the temp. Cardinals are warm water (80F) fish and keeping them in cooler water will slow their metabolism, and they will eat less.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

thanks Bill, i think you just resolved it there!!!


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Really on websites they said cardinals were okay in 73-82f  Last time i listen to those sites


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

TDS is Total Dissolved Salts. When water evaporates, it leaves salts in the tank (calcium and magnesium). Adding more water is adding more salts. The amount of water that evaporated, should be topped with reverse osmosis water (free of salts, zero KH, zero GH, pH 7).
Snails will use the calcium in the water, but then you'll have to physically remove the snails from your tank, to reduce the calcium level.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I think I may have figured out the problem.

You said there is construction going on, this usually means lots of noise and vibrations. This could be greatly stressing out your fish, even to death.

Think about it, you are in the dark, there are constant loud bangs and your whole world is shaking. This would stress out anyone.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

I know white cloud minnows can survive low temp but can they survive high temp?

I really liked them and i have ten in the tank im going to keep them in 78F with the cardinals. I just have to make sure with everyone if it will be okay. i know high temps mean they are more active and burn more energy for the WCMM but will they die? i read their temp range is 64-79F true or false?


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Sigh these cardinals are going to be the death of me. they seem okay but closer inspection i think they are getting bullied by the wcmm. Two pf my cardinals have gotten their back fin nipped. doesnt seem like fin rot though as i dont see the rotting. Both have their bottom fin just gone. i hope it grows back. If i get a bigger shoal of cardinals do you think they would be okay since i read the more there is the safer they feel.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

feeling safe and being safe are two different things. If you have fish that are nippers, other fish are not safe.

Its time to get another tank, one for community fish and one for semi aggressive. This is how MTS starts btw


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

always research fish compatibility with one another before buying or mixing them, in many forums, and water condition too (ie temperature).


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

yea sadly i cant remember whcihc site i went to that told me whiteclouds were going to be okay in temps of 64-78


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## malajulinka (Mar 29, 2008)

You've got to sort of look at the overlap window and make sure there's some room there for error. Just a quick google right now put Cardinals at 72-81 and WCM at 64-72. So sure, they're compatible at the low and high ends of their ranges, but doesn't give you much space to fiddle around.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Just a note.. TDS does not mean total dissolved salts.. it means total dissolved SOLIDS... which include salts but can also include anything else that is not part of the water molecule, such as dust and dirt.


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