# Sticky  Fishless Cycle - An Idiot's Guide



## Hippopoctopus

So I couldn't help but notice that there aren't any articles or links to instructions on how to perform a fishless cycle... Maybe there are, but I haven't been able to find them, and I noticed in the "So you want to keep fish in an aquarium?" sticky that someone mentioned an article should be given for instructions.

So, since I don't get on here to post much, I figured I'd contribute an easy to follow guide for doing the fishless cycle. Feel free to quote, link, move, or add to it as seen fit.

I will be covering this very quickly since I don't want to spend time writing something people might not care to read. If further explanation is needed, or elaboration desired, I'll be happy to revise this with some more details and explanation. I'm sure others will have different recommendations from the advice I provide, but the advice I'm providing has been heavily tested and proven effective and headache-free if followed properly.

*What you need*

- Pure ammonia... No soaps, no scents. Read all the labels carefully. If it smells of anything other than ammonia, or if it produces a soap-like layer of bubbles on the surface when shaken, don't use it. Even after passing this test, read the labels.
- Aquarium heater
- A test kit will save you a lot of doubt, confusion, and headaches. Lots of people don't buy them, sucks for them. A liquid test kit will save you from throwing out your test strips in frustration and buying a liquid test kit anyways. So just buy the test kit and get the better tests before you have to learn the hard way why they made tests and better tests in the first place.
- An aquarium would also be a useful purchase, but for all practical purposes, feel free to use a bucket if you have to
- Sponge, floss, or biobag filter media

Additionally an air pump may be helpful, but is not necessarily required.

Step 1: Remove all carbon filters. If your filter only uses carbon, replace it with something else. DO NOT use carbon filters during a cycle.

Step 2: Raise your water temperature to 82F. Some people suggest 85F. Some might even suggest as high as 90F. I'm suggesting 82F because my philosophy is that it's better to wait for guaranteed results than it is to give yourself a headache and then have to wait longer because you were impatient.

Step 3: If you have it, go ahead and hook up that air pump. If you want to save electricity, don't hook it up yet.

Step 4: Add ammonia until you reach 4-5ppm. No 10gal tank contains exactly 10gal of water. Therefore, I couldn't possibly tell you how much ammonia you'll need to add... I hope you bought that test kit...

Step 5: Maintain ammonia at 4-5ppm and test for ammonia and nitrite levels daily until ammonia begins to drop and nitrites begin to register on that test I told you to buy. Expect this to take approximately 3 days.

Step 6: This step begins as soon as nitrites are registering on your test kit. Instead of maintaining your ammonia at 4-5ppm, maintain it at 2-3ppm once nitrites appear.

ALSO: Hook up your air pump now if you haven't already, it will help speed things up from here on.

Step 7: Test nitrites daily. You can probably hold off testing for about a week or so if you want to save your test solution.

Step 8: When nitrites hit 0 again, and ammonia is verified to be at 0, your cycle is complete. Do a large water change to bring your nitrates to safe levels, add fish.

OR

Continue maintaining ammonia at 2-3ppm until you are ready to do the water change and/or add fish.

Something to consider...

Ammonia turns into nitrites... When nitrites spike to levels that are too high, your cycle stalls... Therefore, adding too much ammonia can result in a stalled cycle. The levels I've recommended are reliable to use.

Step 9: Water your house plants or garden with the old nitrate water... Plants love it, and that way you aren't just wasting it.

So, there's the fishless cycle... If followed exactly, expect to be finished in about 3 weeks start to finish. I'm sure some of these levels could be tweaked, but as I said, I'm giving you a method that will cause the least amount of headaches with some room for human error. A finished cycle is a guaranteed result, so just *be patient*. I hope this can help answer some people's inquiries.


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## Calmer

There is also the Silent Cycle for those that would like to start off using plants to take up the fish waste/plant nutrients. I have used the silent cycle before and it does work really well. Plants and bacteria are always trying to feed on the same food source which is fish waste.

More information here:
http://www.rexgrigg.com/cycle.htm

Some general plant tips are:
You will need to supply fluorescent aquarium light at about 2 watts per aquarium gallon. Most fluorescent hoods sold with aquarium packages are inadequate to supply enough light for most plants. Floating plants and lily pad type plants grow the fastest as they get more light and have more access to atmospheric co2. Unfortunately they block the light from plants below them. Use only sponge, floss, bio balls, or ceramic rings in the filters as they do not chemically absorb the fertilizers.

In either the fishless or silent cycle don't overload the tank all at once. You need to add a few fish over a period of time so that the aquarium can adjust and not be overwhelmed. The same goes for removing and trimming plants. Make small slow changes and wait for the aquarium to balance everything back again. This avoids ammonia spikes from occurring.


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## Hippopoctopus

If the concept of plant-based filtration interests you, read _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ by Diana Walstad.

One thing to remember about silent filtration is that ammonia *IS* toxic to plants, just as it is to fish, and like fish, high ammonia levels will kill your plants.

For this reason I would mostly recommend silent filtration for slightly acidic water, or for aquariums following Diana's method using bacteria rich substrate. Unless you just don't care about the plants...

In slightly acidic water ammonia concentrations are lowered and ammonium concentrations rise. The plants will passively absorb the ammonia and will either use it immediately, or will convert it into ammonium for later use. Since ammonium uptake is active, rather than passive, plants will not absorb ammonium if sufficient ammonia is present to meet the plant's nitrogen requirements. The ammonium in your water will not harm your fish, and your the silent filtration will put less stress on the plant by reducing the amount of nitrogen they're unwillingly forced absorb and metabolize from the water.

In higher ammonia concentrations, the plants will continue absorbing ammonia after their nitrogen requirements are met, and the plants will die.

Since faster growing plants make more carbohydrates, which are combined with ammonia to make amino acids, fast growing plants can tolerate higher ammonia concentrations and are more likely to survive silent filtration.

Contrary to what the article you linked says... Fishless cycling is perfectly acceptable (ideal) for planted aquariums... The thing you must remember is that your cycle has to be complete before you put the plants in because your ammonia levels will harm them. Once a fishless cycle is finished, your aquarium is perfectly suitable for fish, plants, and inverts alike.


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## pat3612

Dont forget the as I call it the fast track fishless cycle , used media . When I first joined this forum I had a 20 gal tank that I cycled with fish, I didnt know any better, but I wanted a big tank with lots of fish,so I decided on africans. A member on this forum told me set your tank up ,get some used media from your 20 and put it in your filters for your 90 in a couple of days you should be good to go. I didnt believe it but I did it , in 3 days my tank was cycled. I added 15 fish all at once and never lost one. So now whenever I set up a tank I just add used media.


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## Hippopoctopus

Indeed, nitrosomonas, nitrobracter, and nitrospira ALL live on surfaces, not in your water column (these are your cycled bacteria).

By moving substrate, driftwood, filter media, or pretty much anything with surface area that water passed over in an established tank, you will be able to boost your cycle's speed.

Since the bacteria is on surfaces, putting water from an old aquarium into a new one will not accomplish this. Filter media holds the highest concentration of these bacteria.

It's very important that this transfer be done quickly to prevent you bacteria from dying. Do not let your substrate, driftwood, etc dry out before transferring it. If it has to be moved long distances, put it in a bucket of water.

In water without ammonia your bacteria should be able to survive for I think it was about 12 hours. After this your bacteria will die rapidly.


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## ameekplec.

Hippopoctopus said:


> One thing to remember about silent filtration is that ammonia *IS* toxic to plants, just as it is to fish, and like fish, high ammonia levels will kill your plants.


The amount of ammonia required for growth inhibitory effects to occur aren't likely to occur during the cycle as there should be no other apparent sources for ammonia to arise in the tank fast enough to affect the plants.

IME the planted cycle or silent cycle is the most effective "start from scratch" cycling method.


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## Hippopoctopus

Hmmmm... I've checked this and I stand corrected with no argument. Listen to him


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## Doctor T

Hi, thanks for the post. I have a couple of dumb questions:
- Why no carbon during a cycle? I read somewhere that the active carbon charge helps colonize the good bacteria.
- Where does one get pure ammonia?


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## Zebrapl3co

pat3612 said:


> ... I added 15 fish all at once and never lost one. So now whenever I set up a tank I just add used media.


Woah, just becareful there. Even a fully established tank might not take on such a load. Unless they are small fish like neons and tetras.



Doctor T said:


> Hi, thanks for the post. I have a couple of dumb questions:
> - Why no carbon during a cycle? I read somewhere that the active carbon charge helps colonize the good bacteria.
> - Where does one get pure ammonia?


Think of the carbon as a sponge. It sucks up all the bad chemicals that pass through it. Ammonia is bad, so it's pretty defeating to add ammonia only to have the carbon suck it up.
the Carbon does have good bacteria but it's a poor place to grow bacteria because when the carbon decompose, it release all the bad stuff it sucks up back into your tank. So it's good practice to change your carbon frequently or better yet replace it with more bio-blocks/bio-sponge/bio-ceramics or bio-balls.

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## Doctor T

Thanks Zebrapl3co for the answer.


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## Calmer

I have read Diana Walstad's book and as many online articles and posts that I can get hold of. So much so that I have some posts bookmarked. <--nerd!  This is a good read that explains plants and nutrients very well:
http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm


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## Calmer

Doctor T said:


> - Where does one get pure ammonia?


I believe someone posted a while back on here about Canadian Tire having the right stuff. Just in case make sure it is pure ammonia without additives like soap or whatever.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/3/CleaningToolsVacuums/SpecialtyCleaningProducts/PRD~0530958P/Goldex%2BAmmonia%252C%2B1.8L.jsp


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## Doctor T

Calmer said:


> I believe someone posted a while back on here about Canadian Tire having the right stuff. Just in case make sure it is pure ammonia without additives like soap or whatever.
> 
> http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/3/CleaningToolsVacuums/SpecialtyCleaningProducts/PRD~0530958P/Goldex%2BAmmonia%252C%2B1.8L.jsp


Excellent, thanks!


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## Calmer

your welcome


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## Prodicus

Good quick quide. I confirm that too much nitrites will stall the cycle. If this happens, water change to bring down the nitrites and the cycle will resume.


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## Hippopoctopus

Thanks for linking that article Calmer... It's going in the bookmarks.


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## pat3612

Zebrapl3co said:


> Woah, just becareful there. Even a fully established tank might not take on such a load. Unless they are small fish like neons and tetras.
> 
> Think of the carbon as a sponge. It sucks up all the bad chemicals that pass through it. Ammonia is bad, so it's pretty defeating to add ammonia only to have the carbon suck it up.
> the Carbon does have good bacteria but it's a poor place to grow bacteria because when the carbon decompose, it release all the bad stuff it sucks up back into your tank. So it's good practice to change your carbon frequently or better yet replace it with more bio-blocks/bio-sponge/bio-ceramics or bio-balls.


Sorry should have made my self more clear they were very small africans less then 2 ins. in a 90 gal.


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## Justin

*Snails*



Hippopoctopus said:


> So I couldn't help but notice that there aren't any articles or links to instructions on how to perform a fishless cycle... Maybe there are, but I haven't been able to find them, and I noticed in the "So you want to keep fish in an aquarium?" sticky that someone mentioned an article should be given for instructions.
> 
> So, since I don't get on here to post much, I figured I'd contribute an easy to follow guide for doing the fishless cycle. Feel free to quote, link, move, or add to it as seen fit.
> 
> I will be covering this very quickly since I don't want to spend time writing something people might not care to read. If further explanation is needed, or elaboration desired, I'll be happy to revise this with some more details and explanation. I'm sure others will have different recommendations from the advice I provide, but the advice I'm providing has been heavily tested and proven effective and headache-free if followed properly.
> 
> *What you need*
> 
> - Pure ammonia... No soaps, no scents. Read all the labels carefully. If it smells of anything other than ammonia, or if it produces a soap-like layer of bubbles on the surface when shaken, don't use it. Even after passing this test, read the labels.
> - Aquarium heater
> - A test kit will save you a lot of doubt, confusion, and headaches. Lots of people don't buy them, sucks for them. A liquid test kit will save you from throwing out your test strips in frustration and buying a liquid test kit anyways. So just buy the test kit and get the better tests before you have to learn the hard way why they made tests and better tests in the first place.
> - An aquarium would also be a useful purchase, but for all practical purposes, feel free to use a bucket if you have to
> - Sponge, floss, or biobag filter media
> 
> Additionally an air pump may be helpful, but is not necessarily required.
> 
> Step 1: Remove all carbon filters. If your filter only uses carbon, replace it with something else. DO NOT use carbon filters during a cycle.
> 
> Step 2: Raise your water temperature to 82F. Some people suggest 85F. Some might even suggest as high as 90F. I'm suggesting 82F because my philosophy is that it's better to wait for guaranteed results than it is to give yourself a headache and then have to wait longer because you were impatient.
> 
> Step 3: If you have it, go ahead and hook up that air pump. If you want to save electricity, don't hook it up yet.
> 
> Step 4: Add ammonia until you reach 4-5ppm. No 10gal tank contains exactly 10gal of water. Therefore, I couldn't possibly tell you how much ammonia you'll need to add... I hope you bought that test kit...
> 
> Step 5: Maintain ammonia at 4-5ppm and test for ammonia and nitrite levels daily until ammonia begins to drop and nitrites begin to register on that test I told you to buy. Expect this to take approximately 3 days.
> 
> Step 6: This step begins as soon as nitrites are registering on your test kit. Instead of maintaining your ammonia at 4-5ppm, maintain it at 2-3ppm once nitrites appear.
> 
> ALSO: Hook up your air pump now if you haven't already, it will help speed things up from here on.
> 
> Step 7: Test nitrites daily. You can probably hold off testing for about a week or so if you want to save your test solution.
> 
> Step 8: When nitrites hit 0 again, and ammonia is verified to be at 0, your cycle is complete. Do a large water change to bring your nitrates to safe levels, add fish.
> 
> OR
> 
> Continue maintaining ammonia at 2-3ppm until you are ready to do the water change and/or add fish.
> 
> Something to consider...
> 
> Ammonia turns into nitrites... When nitrites spike to levels that are too high, your cycle stalls... Therefore, adding too much ammonia can result in a stalled cycle. The levels I've recommended are reliable to use.
> 
> Step 9: Water your house plants or garden with the old nitrate water... Plants love it, and that way you aren't just wasting it.
> 
> So, there's the fishless cycle... If followed exactly, expect to be finished in about 3 weeks start to finish. I'm sure some of these levels could be tweaked, but as I said, I'm giving you a method that will cause the least amount of headaches with some room for human error. A finished cycle is a guaranteed result, so just *be patient*. I hope this can help answer some people's inquiries.


Hi! I have a 5G tank. I also have a bunch of snails in it. Will the snails start the cycle?


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## maladmin

*Silent cycling*

I tried something very similar to the silent cycle (perhaps I forgot to add any fish). According to standard theory I should not have had any ammonia produced, however after about a week I tested and had fairly high levels. At the time I was having difficulties getting plants to grow due to overcrowding and lower light levels, so my guess is the ammonia was being released from rotting leaves.
I guess the point here is that the silent cycle will not work optimally unless the plants are growing strongly.


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## abridgel

Hey guys

I have been adding amonia to my 110g tank for the past 5 days and now have gotten a reading between 4ppm-8ppm 

When should I expect to see some Nitrites?

I just did a Nitrite reading and it was at 0

Andy


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## Zebrapl3co

abridgel said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I have been adding amonia to my 110g tank for the past 5 days and now have gotten a reading between 4ppm-8ppm
> 
> When should I expect to see some Nitrites?
> 
> I just did a Nitrite reading and it was at 0
> 
> Andy


Probablly the next day. If not the 2 days from then. If you are still getting ammonia on the 3rd day, then your tank is not cycling.

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## abridgel

So I did another reading

I have the same reading for Amonia 4-8ppm and no Nitrites

I am not sure what I am doing wrong - I got the Amonia levels up to 4-8ppm 2 days ago but have not added Amonia since - I figured I'd hold off to see if some Nitrites would appear as I did not want to overflow the system with Amonia.

Also I took two ph test - the normal test was off the chart - a very dark blue so I ran the high ph test and the ph is between 8.0 and 8.2

The only thing I can think of is that when I got the tank I set it up and put the water in - let it run for 48 hours than added the dechlorinator.

Would this have an affect on the cycle?


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## qwerty

Are you using a liquid test kit?

It's possible you may have added too much ammonia, and your water is now uninhabitable for even bacteria.

However... Cycling can take some patience sometimes... If you look through this Beginner's Circle you'll find a thread posted by me, where I was having difficulty with cycling much like you were.

I had waited about a month before adding used media, and even a week after the used media had been added, still saw no nitrites, and never had to add more ammonia.

I spoke to a VERY knowledgeable individual who has had much success in the hobby, and has written about the topic quite a few times, and I was informed that what I was experiencing was not very abnormal, and that if I just waited patiently for a few more weeks, it would cycle... I was pretty skeptical but my tank did cycle, right on time as he'd predicted.

He explained to me that the bacteria in our filter that processes ammonia does not establish itself as quickly when given a manufactured ammonia source compared to an organic ammonia source. The reason for this lies in the many other bacteria that colonize our filters to process the other components of fish waste beyond ammonia and nitrites. I'm not a microbiologist, so unfortunately I can't go much more in depth than that. But to summarize his lesson to me... Sometimes a fishless cycle can take longer than expected... This is perfectly normal. Just have patience and it will work itself through...

Likewise, when an organic source of ammonia is introduced to a tank that has only been dosed with manufactured ammonia, a slight lag in ammonia consumption may be noticed for the first 24 hours or so.

He advised me to wait, and I did, and my tank cycled when he predicted. Read my thread to get an idea of what my situation was exactly, and I guarantee if you just forget about it and be patient, it will happen.

Things you may want to try to speed it up a bit...

- Add seeded media
- Add an air pump (helps a lot)

Good luck, be patient.


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## abridgel

So I decided to dumb a bottle of Nutrafin cycle in there (120ml) yesterday - today I took a reading 

Nitiite read in between 0-0.25ppm (finally got something - yeah!!!)
Amonia reading was ~4ppm


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## Zebrapl3co

Good, looks like you are finally starting to cycle.
Keep in mind that you can not run tab water directly into your tank. This will kill off any bacteria that you are trying to grow and you'll be back in square one. Dechlorinate your water first before you add to your tank. Or a more risky method, stop your filter, add dechlorinate and then add tab water. Then restart your filter again.
I have doulbts about those cycle products, but if it works for you. That's great. Remember to stop adding this stuff when you decided to add fish. There are reports that this stuff is not good for the fish.

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## abridgel

My Nitires have hit 5ppm and have been around for over a week - when should I expect to see them to drop

I have not added Amonia to the tank for about a week - the reading is currently around 1ppm

Should I add some more Amonia?


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## abridgel

abridgel said:


> My Nitires have hit 5ppm and have been around for over a week - when should I expect to see them to drop
> 
> I have not added Amonia to the tank for about a week - the reading is currently around 1ppm
> 
> Should I add some more Amonia?


Did a 30% PWC

Still have high Nitrites. Read somewhere that maybe the bacteria that is supposed to consume the Nitrites is having problems establishing itself so I added a sprinkle of finely crushed fish flakes. Heard that it may have some phosphates which will speed up the process.

I'm past 3 weeks now since I first added the amonia.


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## qwerty

Your cycle's doing fine.

Just keep your ammonia below 2ppm.

You don't need to do any water changes unless you have something decomposing that's raising your ammonia.

Too much ammonia can stall a cycle.

These bacteria consume ammonia, but too much ammonia and they wont be able to thrive. 8ppm would have been too much to start with. You want maybe 4ppm... 5ppm at most... I go 3ppm just to play it safe.

Once you get nitrites you have to lower the ammonia levels even further so the next bacteria can establish itself. Don't go any higher than 3ppm. I say keep it under 2ppm.

Only 2 things can really go wrong with a fishless cycle. The first is that you add too much ammonia. The second is that you get impatient.

On the one hand, the more ammonia you add, the more bacteria you establish. On the other hand you shouldn't stock your tank all at once even after its cycled, so it really shouldn't make a difference how much ammonia you used. So play it safe and stick to lower levels.

If you really want to speed up your cycle, add an air pump. All these bacteria are using oxygen to process these molecules, so the more free oxygen that's available, the more ideal the conditions are to grow the bacteria. Adding oxygen to the water will speed up a cycle far more than the common suggestion of raising the temperature.


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## abridgel

Thanks for the replies but I am thinking that I may have some sort of toxic environment going on

I did 3 PWC

30%
75%
20%

And I still have readings of Nitrite in the 1-2ppm range

I am thinking of dumping a bottle of Stability in there to see if it will help


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## qwerty

Well, if you had any toxic substances in the water, you wouldn't be reading nitrites cause the nitrosomonas wouldn't be alive and your ammonia would just stay as ammonia.

If your ammonia is at 1ppm like you say, that's not a problematic level either.

Trust me... Cycling takes time. Took me easily over a month, maybe 2 months... Just be patient, stop doing water changes, let your nitrites build up, and don't go pouring more stuff into your aquarium.

There's nothing you can do to speed it up beyond putting more oxygen in the water. And believe me, the more you try, the more likely you are to stall it.

Patience is one of the most valuable things you'll have to learn in this hobby, and believe me, cycling can take some patience. But tampering with your cycle and making it stall will make the whole process go slower by months.

So yeah... Just put some faith in my advice... You've done nothing wrong so far, and what you're experiencing is entirely normal. Check the thread I started about my cycle... It took much longer than the cycle I had done before it, and I used seeded media, etc, and I went through a lot of the same questions you're asking now. But sure enough I left it alone and it finished cycling in time.


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## abridgel

So how do I know if I am making progress?

Nitrites just keep rising and rising - the Ammonia is quickly taken care of.

Nitrates are barely there at all.

I added some filter floss and lava rock in hopes of creating more surface area.


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## qwerty

There's no way to view your progress (unless you maybe have a microscope...) but it's a natural process, and there's no magic or special technique to making it work. It just happens on its own with its own due time. Like rain, you never know exactly when it's going to happen, but you know it will happen sooner or later.

Your nitrites keep rising. That means you're supporting bacteria. That means your water can support life and there's no toxic contaminants interfering with the cycle... You ammonia's dropping quickly. This means you have a very good population of nitrosomonas, this is excellent.

You're getting slight nitrate readings you say?

You MIGHT have a bit of nitrates in your tap water... Test it... If you have more nitrates in your aquarium water than your tap water, then it should be finished very soon, probably within the next 24 hours would be my guess.


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## abridgel

Ok I have two tanks going 1 is a 110gallon the other is a 10 gallon

I did a base test for Nitrates against my tap water and found out the reading for tap water and my 110 is the same - so no Nitrates there.

I did a reading for Nitrates on my 10 gallon and compared it against the tap water and I would say I have around 10ppm for Nitrates in the 10 gallon

Does this mean my 10 gallon is finished cycling cause honestly there are still a lot of Nitrites left in there - I'd say over 5ppm


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## AquariAM

abridgel said:


> Ok I have two tanks going 1 is a 110gallon the other is a 10 gallon
> 
> I did a base test for Nitrates against my tap water and found out the reading for tap water and my 110 is the same - so no Nitrates there.
> 
> I did a reading for Nitrates on my 10 gallon and compared it against the tap water and I would say I have around 10ppm for Nitrates in the 10 gallon
> 
> Does this mean my 10 gallon is finished cycling cause honestly there are still a lot of Nitrites left in there - I'd say over 5ppm


It's ALMOST done. Done in a day or two. Probably stable in less than five days at the most.


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## abridgel

AquariAM said:


> It's ALMOST done. Done in a day or two. Probably stable in less than five days at the most.


Nope Nitrites still over 5ppm and Nitrate at 10ppm


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## KnaveTO

Untill your Nitrites hit 0 your cycle isn't complete... Nitrates of 10 is acceptable though... however it may still rise due to the high nitrite reading... it will balance eventually


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## abridgel

I am getting pretty frustrated - 

Is it possible that my nitrites are too high and it is inhibiting the nitriospira bacteria from growing?

I just don't understand - I had nitrites show up within a week and they've been hanging around for about 6 weeks but no Nitrates for the large tank.

The smaller tank has nitrates but they have hovered around 10ppm for 2 weeks now and the nitrite count is not dropping.


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## KnaveTO

The cycling process can be one of the most frustrating processes of the hobby. Smaller tanks are known for larger swings in water chemistry. Is the nature of the beast... less water therefore less content to help balance things out. Eventually the nitrites should covert over to Nitrates. I would also check your test kist just in case... what type are you using? Liquid or strips? They can expire. I notice you have already tested your tap water, so it is not in there.


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## abridgel

I am using the API test kit

When i test against my tap water I get slight nitrate readings and 0 nitrites.

I am pretty sure my Nitrite readings are off the chart (ie over 5ppm). If I manually bring down my Nitrites to 1ppm through PWCs - will this help?


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## KnaveTO

It might... although depends an what your ammonia readings are... if they are 0 then it should help... do a 50% change of treated water and then let it sit for a day and test again... see what happens


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## abridgel

My Amonia goes from 1-2ppm to 0ppm in 24hrs


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## abridgel

KnaveTO said:


> It might... although depends an what your ammonia readings are... if they are 0 then it should help... do a 50% change of treated water and then let it sit for a day and test again... see what happens


I've done 3 PWC during the cycle

The last one was 80% and I still had a large reading for Nitrites - I'd say close to 5ppm. I started feeding the tank amonia again (1-2ppm per day) and the Nitrites have never gone down.

What am I doing wrong?


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## KnaveTO

How much ammonia are you putting into the tank, how often are you putting it in there as well? You may have a stalled cycle and might have to start again.


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## abridgel

in the 110 gallon I'd say about 12ml or 3 capfuls - usually this takes the amonia up to 1-2ppm and it is gone in 24hrs

So I put 3 capfuls per day.


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## abridgel

abridgel said:


> in the 110 gallon I'd say about 12ml or 3 capfuls - usually this takes the amonia up to 1-2ppm and it is gone in 24hrs
> 
> So I put 3 capfuls per day.


So about the 7 week mark I finally see the Nitrate spike - its up to around 30ppm now and Nitrite is down to 0.5

I am hoping to see the Nitrite totally be gone by this weekend


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## fra1

Hey guys i started a web page, its still new and i am building on it. Its for people new to the hobby, i take any advise if you want to add it the page check it out.http://fishtanksetups.com/:)


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## slobodan

I tried this silent cycling and ended up with 120gal. of Green Water algae.
No one ever mentions that high levels of Ammonia and lots of light will give you Green Water algae. I guess I know now. 
Mind you my tank is 24" high and 12" above surface of water I have 2x 250W metal halide 8000K bulbs.
I did ammonia only 1ppm and have some filter media from my old filter that's been running for years now.


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## Carlito

*Think of the carbon as a sponge. It sucks up all the bad chemicals that pass through it. Ammonia is bad, so it's pretty defeating to add ammonia only to have the carbon suck it up.
the Carbon does have good bacteria but it's a poor place to grow bacteria because when the carbon decompose, it release all the bad stuff it sucks up back into your tank. So it's good practice to change your carbon frequently or better yet replace it with more bio-blocks/bio-sponge/bio-ceramics or bio-balls.[/QUOTE]*

I have a Marineland C-360 canister filter and obviously it has carbon. From what you're saying, I can replace it with bio-blocks/bio-sponge/bio-ceramics or bio-balls?

If that's the case, than it will save me a lot of money on carbon...


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## qwerty

I have never once seen a sensible argument for using carbon in a filter consistently.

If you're trying to remove medication, carbon is good...

But I have yet to find any information suggesting why anyone should ever need to use carbon regularly.


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## marimo

*still confused*

My ammonia level has been 0.5 ppm.. i've looked everywhere within my area for any ammonia to raise the level but they don't sell any.. it's a new tank and i let it sit for 3-4 days, 10gallon

i have 3 plants: anubias, java fern, and a hygrophilia
carbon filter penguin 100

please help?


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## solarz

marimo said:


> My ammonia level has been 0.5 ppm.. i've looked everywhere within my area for any ammonia to raise the level but they don't sell any.. it's a new tank and i let it sit for 3-4 days, 10gallon
> 
> i have 3 plants: anubias, java fern, and a hygrophilia
> carbon filter penguin 100
> 
> please help?


Ammonia comes from the decomposition of any organic material. You can put fish food or a small piece of raw shrimp in there. You could even pee in your tank if you're up to it.


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## marimo

thanks solarz for the answer

bahaha maybe i will try peeing in the tank


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## joe

so i recently started cycling a tank and at first it looked good

has new fluval substrate and some plants and some wood

wood and plants added after a week


but i have some brown fungas growing on the plants, its stringy 
and fungas growing on the moss and on the wood, kinda brown/clear

i think there may be carbon in the filter im going to check tonight and if so take it out...


BUT could anything else be the problem? id like to get my second shimp tank on the go....

thanks joe


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## hornell

What type of wood is it? I have manzanita and everytime I add it to a tank I get a bunch of white whispy looking fungus that almost looks like cotton balls on all my plants. I removed it using tweezers, by collecting the fungus in a swirling motion. It generally goes away after a while and I think Amano shrimp eat it. 

Best of luck.


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## neebs

I have some pure amonia (from Dr. Tim's website) if someone needs to borrow some.



Calmer said:


> I believe someone posted a while back on here about Canadian Tire having the right stuff. Just in case make sure it is pure ammonia without additives like soap or whatever.
> 
> http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/3/CleaningToolsVacuums/SpecialtyCleaningProducts/PRD~0530958P/Goldex%2BAmmonia%252C%2B1.8L.jsp


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## joe

how do you add the ammonia right to your tank?


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## xriddler

I checked the canadian tire website and it seems like they do not carry ammonia
anymore. Any one know where to buy ammonia these days?


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## neebs

I have some - happy to lend you the bottle


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## Fishfur

I had trouble finding ammonia too.. almost nobody carries it any longer, where it used to be in every grocery store. The few who do have a lemon scented product that clearly has detergent in it also.

But a couple of good folks on GTA pointed me to Home Hardware, who carry a brand called Old Country.. and sure enough, they had it, though I had to try two stores to get one that had stock. So call your chosen store first to make sure they have it on hand. 

Bottle cost me around $3.50 tax inc., and I now have enough to do more tanks than I will ever, ever own, I am sure. If anyone comes across this looking for ammonia, please let me know, I will gladly sell you some of mine.


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## ilikefish

what about this guide. how come thing one is such a long duration?

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html


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## solarz

ilikefish said:


> what about this guide. how come thing one is such a long duration?
> 
> http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html


Cycling a tank from scratch can take anywhere between 4 to 8 weeks.


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## CapnCaveman

I'm 2 weeks into my fishless cycle and I'm seeing serious nitrite spikes. It's a 65 gallon tank and twice now I've done about 50% water changes when the nitrites go off the scale. After the WC I find ammonia at around 0.25ppm so I add a capful to get it back to 2ppm. By the next day my nitrites are back at 5ppm.

I'm considering after doing some reading to not dose ammonia for a little while with the thoughts that I have an overpopulation of nitrosomonas and some may have to die off to make room so to speak for the nitrobacter. Is this prudent. Would a dose of one of the bacterial supplements help at this point?


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## malajulinka

Patience, grasshopper. With nitrite spikes will come nitrates in time. And read over the instructions again - STOP doing water changes until you get your nitrates. You're taking away all the food for the good little bacteria every time you do! The major water change at the end is to get the nitrates down to a liveable level before you add livestock. 

Breathe.


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## ilikefish

my nitrite started registering at 0.50ppm... is there a typical nitrite level?


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## jamie

*What happened to the nitrates?*

From what I understand there's two ways to remove nitrates from freshwater, plants eating it or water changes. I'm into day 16 of my first fishless cycle, and my nitrates have disappeared twice now, from a high of 80ppm to 0 in 24hrs. Here's a short log. Na means nitrate, Ni means nitrite.

new dechl. tap water ph 7.5, aquaclear50 w new media pre-run in main tank 1 week, no gravel, 1 air stone, 2 plastic plants, no light, 82F, ph between 8.0 and 8.8 during cycle, "Old Country" brand ammonia from Home Hardware

day 1 amm raised to 4ppm, 
day 4 amm 2ppm, nasty filter squeezings from canister cleaning added to water column
day 7 amm 1ppm, amm raised to 4ppm
day 8, no testing wish I had because...
day 9 amm still near 4ppm, Ni +5ppm, Na +160ppm, 50% WC retest, Ni +5ppm, Na 10-20ppm, amm raised to 4ppm
next few days, amm gone in 24hrs, a 50% WC to get Ni and Na into readable ranges, a pinch of finely ground flake food
day 15 (last night) Ni 0ppm (yay!), Na 0ppm (huh??) tested twice again, yup zero
amm raised to 2ppm, retested 6hrs later amm 0ppm, Ni +5ppm, Na 10-20ppm
day 16 (30 minutes ago) amm 0ppm, Ni 0ppm, Na 0ppm. amm raised to 2ppm
I figure a few more days of 2ppm amm being turned into 0ppm nitrites and I'm ready for fresh water and some new tetras.

I can't see any algae, I don't get how nitrates can disappear on their own. I had the airstone weighted down with a small steel nut that had some corrosion on it which is now removed (the nut), but that should(?) just involve oxygen and iron. Could that affect the nitrogen cycle? I don't think I've stalled, just a little confused, I expected nitrate to rise and stay high.

(This is for a quarantine tank and I'm in no rush. I'm actually thinking about washing the filter in tap water or recreating a mishap to see how a bacteria culture revives, just because I can. I know there's a lot of pro's and con's about fish-less vs fish-in, but I think every newbie should cycle an empty tank at least once, even if all you gain is an intimate knowledge of your bio filtration and faith in your testing kit. Like a crash test dummy tank.)


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## pyrrolin

I can't explain why nitrates disappeared unless somehow the high reading was false


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## jamie

pyrrolin said:


> I can't explain why nitrates disappeared unless somehow the high reading was false


Thought of that also, while I can't say 100% accuracy on #'s I'm using an API test kit (getting pretty anal about it too, bought a syringe, check under the same light, upright bottle during drops) and I know there is nitrates showing up. I dosed ammonia to about 2ppm at about 3-30 this aft and just tested a few minutes ago (8pm) and I'm looking at a slight drop in amm to about .5 to 1ppm nitrites are 5ppm or over and about 20-40ppm in nitrates... so I know something's definitely happening in the right direction. If I see zero nitrates tomorrow I'll assume there's a mutant form of bacteria growing.

I checked the security camera... there's new evidence haha


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## pyrrolin

I have heard that there is a bacteria that does eat nitrates but it's supposed to take about a year for that to build up. Plants can do a lot to lower nitrates in the right conditions.


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## jamie

*AWOL nitrates*



pyrrolin said:


> I have heard that there is a bacteria that does eat nitrates but it's supposed to take about a year for that to build up. Plants can do a lot to lower nitrates in the right conditions.


I've done a little reading tonight based on your suggestion, any bac I could find that eats nitrates is anaerobic, but apparently there is a class of aerotolerant organisms that don't need O2 but can live in it. I was wrong about the rust not being the case, O2 is used in the last conversion of nitrogen in nitrates, or at least released from a bond that breaks nitrate into pure nitrogen, so the corrosion/oxidization on the nut could have had something to do with it. Another possibility is the filter squeezings. They were from a planted tank, and were in a bottle for 2 days, filtered through a coffee screen and spooned into the tank. A few day later another bottle of the same age (I save WC for plants) went sulphur-like (hydrogen sulphide?) and that is nitrate eating evidence. So much to learn...

Either way, I raised amm to 2ppm at 3-30pm yesterday, at 8pm it was amm .5 to 1ppm, nitrite over 5ppm, nitrate 20 to 40ppm and 3-30pm today it's zeroes on all, I'm stumped... I'm going to double the amm to 4ppm tonight to see what happens. if ANYONE can shed ANY insight direction or experience even if you think it's absurd I'd appreciate it because this is driving me nuts. Along the way I did learn about some DIY nitrate eating bio filters made from thin tubing and slow (1-5gph) pumps that are pretty cool, so i'm learning anyway..

I joked about the cat in the tank, but now I'm not so sure. He'll drink out of any water container he can, and I've caught him sipping the cycling tank. I read about facultative anaerobes that live in our intestines and they're involved in nitrogen somehow. Maybe cats have the same bacteria in their spit?


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## Fishfur

Cats have a lot of bacteria in their saliva, but contrary to popular opinion, not as many or as nasty ones as do we human beings. Ask any doctor what kind of bite is most likely to become infected and need antibiotics to cure it ? I'd be astonished if a cat left any bacteria behind that could dispose of nitrates in any useful amounts.. they'd surely be destroyed by the oxygen, if they even existed, would they not ? My cats drink water I can't imagine drinking too.. no idea why, they have plenty of clean water to drink. 

The nasty smell you refer to is, I believe, hydrogen sulphide. It can build up under substrates in FW tanks and will release bubbles of the gas that can poison shrimp if they are near where the bubble comes up. You can tell if the gas is present by poking the substrate. If a lot of bubbles come up, you have swamp gas there, which means some anaerobic bacteria are present. Not good for fish or anything else.

There are denitrifying filters, some commercial ones, such as Aquapure, that you can buy that take the nitrates through that last step and convert them to nitrogen, but it's a closed system, because it is anaerobic, so oxygen must be excluded. Salt water tanks use denitrifying bacteria too, in deep sand beds in the sumps. The sand layers are thick enough to exclude the oxygen, and thus support the anaerobic bacteria that do the conversion. Don't know if a sand bed sump would work in the same way for FW or not.

Might be worth checking this tank to see if it has swamp gas buildup.. might explain the vanishing nitrates.


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## jamie

*swamp gas*

The smell came from a bottle of dirty water I saved from cleaning my canister. It sat for four days with some real nasty swill in it, sealed on my kitchen counter. I tested it for ammonia at 2ppm, so whatever it was it started rotting. 2 days earlier I had added the swill from another bottle taken during the same cleaning (does anyone know someone who wants house plant water??) to the gravel-less cycling tank once the ammonia dropped on it's own from 2 to 1ppm but no nitrites yet. I'm totally on your page regarding the swamp gas, but can't see any anaerobic bacteria that can't take O2 surviving in this tank. The only lighting is when I check the temp (82F) so algae or any photosynthesis is unlikely, it's well aerated and just smells like any other tank. The cat saliva thought was grasping at straws (testimony to my lostness), and I'll share a cup no problem... the bacteria I was mentioning are totally natural and necessary but are intestinal. I read somewhere that what isn't us outnumbers what is us in our bodies by a large number but that's another post for a different section lol.

Also I used Prime to dechlorinate, not straight into the tank. It sits at least until cold water goes to room temp, sometimes for a few days always aerated. It claims to detoxify nitrates so your filter can remove it easier. That can be the only answer. I'm very tempted to try another conditioner, do a complete water change and see what happens. The best part is I get to mess around and learn without hurting anything.

Thanks for the tip fishfur, calling it swamp gas reminded me that prime kinda smells sulphury. I have to admit tonight was the first time I've read the label since I was in the store.

But could you imagine if it _was_ the cat saliva? It would start a new revolution in aquaria! No water changes any more, just dunk your cat face first to beef up your biofilter media!! You read it here first... beta testing starts tomorrow, now I just have to get the cat to sign a waiver, maybe get little goggles... y'know for safety of course.


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## Fishfur

Too cute.. cat with goggles. And yeah, Prime does have that unique odour but it also works differently than most other products in it's class. Read their website for details.

As for whether or not you might have swamp gas in your tank, you won't necessarily smell it just by sniffing. You really would have to poke a net or stick or something like that into the substrate, going all around the tank, as the gas pockets can be small and may stay put for some time unless disturbed, either by you poking, digging critters or pulling up plants by the roots. IF you have it, once you release it, then you'll smell it, but not before.

I had it for awhile in my first tank, mainly thanks to overfeeding, and had no idea it was present until I did pull up a plant to move it. A cloud of bubbles came with the roots and it stank. Once I learned what it was, I did a very thorough vacuum on the substrate, pulling up all the plants as I went. Many large bubbles came up, and I kept going until there were no more. Then a major water change was done. Fortunately, that was the end of the problem and I've been much more careful with feeding since. So far as I know, I was fortunate not to lose any fish or shrimp over it.

I also added MTS which have now reproduced in large numbers and they do so much digging in the substrate, any pockets that might be trying to grow are disturbed before they can get very far. Very useful little snails if only for this reason, and they don't lay eggs on anything. They hatch their young internally, but they do reproduce very quickly, just so you know.


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## bettaforu

I just checked my Amazonia cycling tank today and it reads
.5 for ammonia
0 for nitrates
0 for nitrites.

its only been cycling for 2 weeks now, but I have old sponge filters in there and old floss from another filter that is established.

Should I have nitrates/nitrite still showing???


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## pyrrolin

you should be seeing some nitrates. Using used media can greatly speed up the process, I have even cycled in one day using enough media.


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## Fishfur

I wish I had some experience with the those special substrates, but I don't. All I know is from things Randy has said, among others. 

One is that these substrates can continue to leach ammonia for a long period of time, much longer than the more typical gravel or eco complete types. Also, because the pH is pretty low for the shrimp you'd keep on this stuff, the bacteria don't establish so well. 

They do best in neutral to alkaline conditions, so the more acidic it is, the fewer of them there will be. So it may take some time before you start to see a nitrite spike or nitrates. Two weeks is nowhere near long enough, not even using established media, as a lot of the bacteria in the old media probably didn't survive the switch to the lower pH. I am not at all certain you even get a nitrite spike using this kind of substrate.. I'd ask Randy, he's got a pile of tanks running, all slightly different from one another.


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## jamie

Fishfur said:


> ....Prime does have that unique odour but it also works differently than most other products in it's class. Read their website for details


I traded a few e-mails with the Seachem customer support (highly recommended)... They are truly helpful and while they couldn't explain my dilemma (tank is cycled, no fish yet can't find 'em, 4ppm of amm turns into 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate in less than 20hrs yeah I know I cant explain 0 nitrate) they told me how it NEUTRALIZES amm, nitrate and nitrite but it is still present, only non toxic and there isn't a test kit on the market that can tell the difference. It is only non toxic for 48hrs, plenty of time for an active filter to remove the crap, but my habit of filling my water jugs and letting them sit was wrong. letting them sit is OK, but add the prime before I put in the fish tank, not when filling the jugs. I measured a small amount of amm in the water jug, a by product created in the breakdown of the chloramine in our tap water.

As for the cycling, it went very well as far as readings are concerned. By day 9 I had nitrites/nitrates off the charts, by day 15 nitrites were 0 and a few days later I saw nitrates hit 0 It's a consistent pattern now, stopped testing a week or so ago, (today would be day 27) and a 1/2 teaspoon of 'Old Country' ammonia from 'Home Hardware" in a 20g each night will be 0's the next afternoon...PH is in the high eights and I added java moss a week ago which seems to love it so I believe it's just a full water change to restore PH to 7.5 and add fish. I just can't seem to find the right tetras. Big Als and NAFB on Kingston have some nice Black Skirts, but I want to put in Phantoms as well and no body (I've been to yet) seems to have any decent ones now.


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## Fishfur

Good luck with finding the fish you want. Seachem has a very good rep for customer service, wish all companies were as helpful as they are.

Since you've had the nitrite spike and nitrates did show up afterward, no matter what may be happening with the nitrates, I'd just keep on going as you are doing now. So long as the filter bacteria are not allowed to die off, you'll be good to go when the fish finally arrive.


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## pyrrolin

if this is a heavily planted tank that could explain the lack of nitrates as plants can use them up. Just keep up with the ammonia until you get fish and you are set


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## jamie

pyrrolin said:


> if this is a heavily planted tank that could explain the lack of nitrates as plants can use them up. Just keep up with the ammonia until you get fish and you are set


Just a piece of java moss on a small chunk of wood I added after the cycling and 2 plastic plants. There's no gravel either, it's going to quarantine fish then they'll go into the main tank. The only media is some foam I get from work for mechanical and fluval ceramic bio rings. The only other variables were filter squeezings from the main planted tank and possibly some baby shrimp may have been sucked up into the filter when I was seeding it. (my cherries had babies, I noticed them after the cycling began in the QT tank) I didn't check, just put it on the 20g after a week in the main tank and started adding ammonia. I also added some shrimp skins after they shedded(?) moulted(?).

I do admit to a little worry in adding a bunch of fish to an untried tank. I've never done anything other than adding fish slowly and the thought of putting about 20 fish into a 20g at once is frightening, but if I start slowly I worry about bact that have grown dying off and maybe causing a mini cycle later.

I've cycled 2 tanks with the same white cloud minnows, it's tempting to move them as a test but I feel they've done their work and deserve medals while enjoying their days in retirement. Definitely an underappreciated species.


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## Fishfur

Ummm, you might not want to take those moulted shells away from your shrimp. They eat them, to recycle the calcium for their new shells, so it's best to leave them in the tank.

I would not add 20 fish all at once. Your bacteria are enough to handle the ammonia load you are providing them, but 20 fish at once might well give you a mini cycle, if the fish waste generates too much ammonia. They need at least some time to adjust and grow in numbers to handle higher loads. Adding them slowly is a much safer method.. OR, increase the ammonia you are adding now, and build the numbers of bacteria before you put in fish.


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## FONE

Hi everyone,

Recently joined. Just got into aquarium-keeping, and have been trying to do a ton of reading to make sure I'm doing things the right way [vs when I was a kid and had a fish murder box].

I'm not sure if I'm stalling on my cycle, but my ammonia readings for the past 4 days haven't changed at all, from what I could tell.

The filter is running, and I have plants and gravel in the tank already.

I don't have any seed material, so I'm wondering if my tank is just devoid of bacteria right now.. ><''

Please help. Thanks.


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## xriddler

This might be a waste of money to some people but cycle with stability. because you have an ammonia source, seachem stability can be your bacteria source. you are still doing a fishless cycle but a good untainted bottle of stability can cycle your tank in a week or two without used media from other people.


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## FONE

Thanks for the response, xriddler. I might go pick up some Stability when I have some time.

I checked the pH of the water this morning, and it was sitting around 7.8. Is that too high for cycling to happen?

What natural, low-maintenance ways do I have to lower pH? I'm going to test my tap water + dechlorinator tonight to see if it is high pH on its own too.

Please help. Thanks.


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## Fishfur

Where are you in Markham ? I get there every couple of weeks.. might be able to bring you some rinsings from one my filters. Speed things up for you considerably.

It is sad but true that cycling can take quite a long time, sometimes.


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## pyrrolin

ph should be ok, lots of people do it with even higher ph.

Cycling the first tank is a pain, but all tanks after that are easy, you will have media to seed the next filters.


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## FONE

Fishfur said:


> Where are you in Markham ? I get there every couple of weeks.. might be able to bring you some rinsings from one my filters. Speed things up for you considerably.
> 
> It is sad but true that cycling can take quite a long time, sometimes.


Hi Fishfur,

Thanks for the offer -- if you ever make it out to the Markham Rd/Denison area, let me know and we can arrange something. From what I've read, getting seeding material will help a lot, like you've said too.

I went to Big Al's to ask them if they had anything like that, but the people I talked to kinda just shrugged it off. 

I guess maybe I'm just getting stir crazy to get some fish/livestock into my tank.

Thanks for everyone's feedback!


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## hdhhdjhdhg

Unadulterated alkali... No cleansers, no fragrances. Peruse every one of the names cautiously. In the event that it scents of something besides smelling salts, or on the other hand on the off chance that it delivers a cleanser like layer of air pockets on a superficial level when shaken, don't utilize it. Indeed, even subsequent to finishing this assessment, read the names.


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