# Cold water reef tanks



## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Ok, so can anyone who has ever had, or knows anything about cold water reefs let me know your thoughts and experiences. I have spent some time poking around various websites and have found some basic info.

The plan is sometime in the next year to build one. But I want to keep it small. Say around 40 gallons with a 20ish gallon sump.

This will be our 4th and final reef tank, as currently we have a 175, a 30 and a 5 gallon tank. No, I am not heading into Dark Angel, Fire Angel territory and there will never be any possible chance that I will get to 42 tanks! I tip my cap to you both and am in awe of keeping that many tanks.

But I figure because we already do the RODI for the DT, etc and water changes don't have to be as frequent for cold water, adding another smaller tank isn't that big a deal cause we can actually use some of the water from our main system into this tank. I think.

Here is what I know so far about cold water reefs:

Temp between 55 and 60 degrees. This will not be a specific zone tank, so I don't want to replicate a specific river mouth, or delta, or reef. My thoughts are closer to 60 degrees as this temperature appeals to a wider variety of fish from what I can tell.

Salinity 1.025. It seems. I think the primary variation is the temp, not the salinity, KH, ALK or anything else, as it is still saltwater, so my thoughts are I can keep all other parameters the same, just vary the temp. But I would like opinions on this point.

Good chiller, yup! That I can deal with, np.

Skimmer, yup! Not an issue on this either.

Any other reactors or filters? Probably a mechanical filter, socks or something, but won't keep a refugium on this system.

Tanks are recommended to be acrylic, but I am reading some disagreement on this point, and honestly, it won't be an issue either, I don't think, as we are in Ontario, not Arizona, so we don't really have high humidity with a massive variation between room temp and tank temp. If the tank is at 60 and the room at 72, that's not much variation, really. So on this point, I will work with whatever tank I can find that I like.

Landscaping appears to be more granite and river rock than aragonite and live rock, but I don't like the appearance of the granite and river rock so not sure what I will do. I think it would be nice to have black lava gravel bed, and maybe I will find some black lava rock, or something more dramatic. What I can tell is that the temp really inhibits the growth of micro organisms in the rock so having the live rock is really not necessary. Thoughts?

Lighting is supposed to be lower levels, since most of these fish and corals will be deeper water animals with lower lighting levels, but if I get a good light, I will be able to vary the settings and see what works, so I think this is going to be a more trial and error thing once it's running.

Fish?
Catalina goby
Catalina zebra goby
Some cool file fish
Blue spotted jaw fish
I have a list going, but of course the whole purpose of this tank is to keep those fish who need cooler water.

Inverts?
Strawberry conch
Margarita snails (anything that has margarita in the name has to be in the tank)

Corals?
Strawberry anemones
Lots of other anemones
But what other corals????

So. What else? What are your experiences and what should I not do??

Or is a cold water reef just a bad idea,

And yes, I got the latest CORAL magazine that had the cold water reef articles.

And yes, I have visited the fairly non active cold water reef forum, and as many other websites as I can find. Looking for more first hand experience.

Thanks all!


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## wchen9 (Jan 23, 2014)

I don't have anything to add as I only started up my first tank ever this year but have been interested in cold water reefs since visiting the Vancouver aquarium a few years ago. I haven't seen any suppliers but would like to see what you find. Following along!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## darkangel66n (May 15, 2013)

I wish I could do a cold water tank. Since I can not could you put the sarcastic fringehead in so I can see one in person when we come visit?


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

darkangel66n said:


> I wish I could do a cold water tank. Since I can not could you put the sarcastic fringehead in so I can see one in person when we come visit?


First of all, there is *NO WAY* I am putting that thing anywhere near anything alive that I own. Yikes!!!

Secondly, in what universe can you not have a cold water tank? I know you have room for at least 18 more!!!!


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## darkangel66n (May 15, 2013)

No real place for the chiller and I have never seen coldwater stuff for sale.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Ok, yeah, I forgot about all the heat and humidity from your other tanks. I get it now.

In terms of ordering, I know most places can order the fish, they show up on the order lists, it's just going to be a question of receiving them as soon as the order comes in, so they don't go into any of the warm tanks. So I will have to be prepared to do that. Which means there is more risk. Catalina's and blue spot jawfish show up in the stores all the time. However, not sure about the corals.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

wchen9 said:


> I don't have anything to add as I only started up my first tank ever this year but have been interested in cold water reefs since visiting the Vancouver aquarium a few years ago. I haven't seen any suppliers but would like to see what you find. Following along!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Glad to have you along! There is a place in Oregon specializing in cold water reefs, they say they can ship internationally, but it would be the buyers responsibility to get permits. Not interested in doing that, so I will buy local.


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## zenins (Sep 17, 2013)

wchen9 said:


> I don't have anything to add as I only started up my first tank ever this year but have been interested in cold water reefs since visiting the Vancouver aquarium a few years ago.


I saw the cold water reef tanks at the Vancouver Aquarium as well 

The creatures and corals were surprisingly colourful, for some reason I thought they would have drab and dull colours 

... and yes, there was lots of condensation on the glass, there was a Vancouver Aquarium staff member wiping the glass every 10 minutes ... must have been a summer student 

Maybe contact the Vancouver Aquarium and find out how they obtain their stock ?


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## woopderson (Feb 12, 2014)

Following along as well. Can't wait to hear about your progress. Rooting for you!!


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

woopderson said:


> Following along as well. Can't wait to hear about your progress. Rooting for you!!


Man!!!! I'm feeling the pressure already! Ok, so anyone following along has to share the stress of performance anxiety I am starting to feel!

JJ,
Bring it on! Am on the hunt for a tank right now. Looking for a bent glass cube, 40 gallon ish.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

So came across some interesting information.

Tank will be acrylic. Not glass. Still want to do bent corners, am going to have to do some serious sourcing.

The concept that salinity, ph, ALK, etc are the same, regardless of temperature is not true. I now have some guidelines on what salinity, etc etc should be, but since water temp will be around 60-65, I need a new method of measuring them. The refractometer and most tests are calibrated to 75 degrees.

And I think this tank will be more of a temperate tank, than a true cold water tank. 

And the other good part is, I don't need a fancy dancy hoiti toiti light for this tank! Low level lighting is preferred cause algae can grown quicker in over lit cold tanks than reef tanks that are established.


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## Luiiizy (Aug 11, 2012)

wow very interesting only seen a couple cold water reefs mostly on youtube ! ahahah 

following along


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## nc208082 (Jun 27, 2013)

Have you checked out this website. They do ship internationally.
http://coldwater-marine-aquatics.theshoppad.com/#/


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

nc208082 said:


> Have you checked out this website. They do ship internationally.
> http://coldwater-marine-aquatics.theshoppad.com/#/


Yup! These guys are definitely filling a niche! They have a great website and are really active on some of the forums and facebook with the coldwater tank pages.
Although they do ship internationally, the fine print says the buyer is responsible for all import permits, etc etc. since I don't do that kind of thing everyday, I wouldn't know where to begin, or want to take a chance. I have a couple local suppliers who will bring stuff in for me, so when I am ready, they will order for me.
In the mean time, just more researching........


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## Zvonmonet (Dec 4, 2012)

would love to see a tank like that in person, would be sweet


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Update!!!!
For now, just because I didn't want to get into the expense of a custom 1" acrylic tank, we opted on Boxing Day to get an Innovative Marine all in one tank. If it sweats in the summer, we will change it then, or figure out something else.

The current cold water tank plan is to keep the temperature somewhere around 65 to 68 degrees, and as the tank is 30 gallons, it won't have many occupants. Just small fish, a bunch of Catalina Gobies, Blue Spot Jaw Fish, and hopefully a Gulf Signal Blenny. Plus a cold water clean up crew of some sort. Plus a few corals or anemones, yet to be determined.

It is said, because of the cold water, that the rock doesn't have to be limestone, that it could be granite river rock. Well, I really don't like the look of granite river rock so opted for limestone anyway. It wasn't said if there were any issues using limestone, and I figure limestone makes up most of the ocean landscape even in deep or cold water, so limestone it is.

In order to set the rock in the tank, I needed to drill it and mount it on PVC black pipe. Here I am drilling the rock so I can insert the pipe. We used 2" black pvc, glued to a clear acrylic base plate (it's in the back of the sink).










Yes we have debris trap on the sink to prevent all the rock bits from getting into the plumbing.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

I don't get to use the good Festool drill for this work, just the crappy Makita. But I think I have to get a new chuck for John now, cause it got kinda rusty doing this.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

I used a carbide power carving bur bit, about 3/4" diameter, to cut the rock. Don't know why we had the bit, but it was the perfect thing to cut the rock. Available at Lee Valley Tools.

It was a lot of fun cutting the rock. Cut like butter.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

We glued the rock to the pvc pipe using a low temp hot melt moisture cure urethane. This is the gun.








Nothing on the glue says it is reef safe, but the moisture cure urethane sets up in 5 minutes and fully cures in about 24 hours. Once it cures it is non toxic. The manufacturer told us they have not bothered to have it certified for potable use, because it's a very long expensive process and they didn't have the need, but as it is a cross link urethane and binds itself, this seemed like a good time to try it out and see if it worked.
I dislike epoxy putty, and CA glue just doesn't have enough body. So this was perfect to try as there was enough body to the glue to fill crevices, and it ran just enough to get down into the pores.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Here are the rocks sitting in the empty tank on their PVC pipe bases which have been glued to a larger piece of clear acrylic. The acrylic will be under the sand.

Looks like the floating islands of Pandora.......


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

With the Kessil lights on.

As Alt said, I really need to spend some time taking better photos. Will do that this weekend.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Black sand, water in the tank, a little cloudy still


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## paulie (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks awesome Crayon!!

tagging along...


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## cerebrous (Jan 30, 2013)

wow ambitious!!! Love the floating rock too!!! nice!!!


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

My cold water tank has been up and running since January this year. After having done a lot of reading and looking around, I found this really cool website of fish from the pacific coast of California, and it allowed me to filter for fish strictly from the Gulf of California. Which meant I could focus in on creating a biotope of fish that live naturally together which included Catalina Gobys (which is why I had become so attracted to doing a cold water tank). I spent the last eight months trying to find these fish and inverts for the tank.

purple sea urchin, (Strongylocentrotus purpuratus)
Red Rock Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata californica)
Brittle Star (Ophiothrix spiculata)
Bat Star (Asterina miniata)
Black Turban Snail (Tegula funebralis)
Zebra Goby (Lypthrypnus zebra)
Jeweled Topsnail (Calliostoma annulatum)
Red moon snail (Norrisia norrisi)
Strawberry Anemone (Corynactis californica)
Catalina goby (Lythrypnus dalli)
Margarita Snail (Margarites pupillus)
Jawfish, Blue Dot (Opistognathus rosenblatti)
Gulf signal blenny (Emblemaria hypacanthus)
Carmine Triplefin (Axoclinus storeyae)
Longnose Hawkfish (Oxycirrhites typus) from gulf of California
Chestnut Cowrie (Cypraea spp.)


The fish for sure all come from the Gulf of California, but not necessarily all the inverts. However they do share the same tank requirements, so they will be fine. 

All I found in the last eight months was the blue spot jawfish. He had been kept in a 75 degree tank, but did come from a temperate area, so for now, he is at 72 degrees, room temperature by himself in my well cycled cold water tank. I will take a photo later today.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

I have talked to everyone I know about getting anything off this list. Locally, internationally, on forums, via email, etc etc. There have been a few times that Catalinas have shown up on Live Aquaria, but that would mean driving across the border to pick them up, and I just didn't know how well that would work. I really wanted someone local who had import licenses to bring fish in for me.

So my tank sat sort of empty. Growing algae. With a clean up crew of 6 margarita snails from big ALS.


However, as things go, I got an email from TeeMee early one morning, telling me that Coldwater Marine Aquatics had a Shaws Boxfish available. Aracana Aurita.
(Insert shouts of excitement, panic and OMG! OMG OMG)
Several emails, and a very fast on line purchase secured this fish. This fish was not in the plan. I had so much trouble trying to get California fish, the Shaws was strictly stuff of legend, or pipe dreams.
Now I had one waiting for me.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

The Ornate Boxfish presented a new problem. According to cold water marine, he was the size of your fist.
Not going to fit in the established 30 gallon coldwater system. The tank was too small. And is it ok to still keep Catalina Gobys, which are about 1.25" with a Boxfish ?

Now what?

So this means a new tank. A bigger tank built out of thick acrylic, with a proper skimmer and sump.
Oh man! I really didn't want a new project........
Except I have this really cool fish waiting for me, so -- here we go!


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*project*

simply amazing Cheryl ..... love it


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

More research.
Pumps, lights, skimmers, sumps appropriate for a low light, low biological filtration, high mechanical filtration and over skimming requirement. Pumps that generate little heat. Acrylic tanks premade and custom.

We have the tank sort of nailed down, and ready to be built. More on that later.
MACNA gave us an opportunity to check out new equipment, and the best solution for what we needed.
Purchased a Royal Exclusiv double cone 180 skimmer with variable speed control. Rational as follows:
-We have a Supermarin on our large tank and know the construction and functionability is good. Easy to clean skimmer cup, threaded connection is a positive fit.
-the pump is external to the skimmer so if it has to be cleaned or maintained, I don't have to take the whole skimmer out of the sump. Easy on off connection.
-a large surface contact area between air and water means excellent skimmate production
-fits the dreambox sump, which is what we will use, just trying to pin down the size.
-variable speed, dead quiet pump, low heat production. This gives me control on the skimmer in case it goes crazy and overflows. So rather than trying to adjust the air ratio, I can dial that in and leave it, and just adjust the water flow. Much easier. 

At MACNA we saw all sorts of sumps by other vendors. Some now even have lids. I would not do a sump without a lid ever again. However, the dream box is still the only sump I have found with multiple filter socks, bypasses on chambers in case something plugs up, cable holders, ports for additives and add ons, built in lighting (for fun) and is still the best fit and finish. They now have US distribution, and have provided payment options that are easier as well.
We will be ordering a dreambox for the sump.
We checked out all the return pumps we could at MACNA as well.
Originally we thought we would use the Red Dragon Speedy 50 watt, which we use on the large tank. I like this pump and it is controllable as well.
We looked at the new Ecotech pumps, the Neptune pumps, Waveline, etc etc etc. Then we talked to Abyzz.
One came home with us. Abyzz 100 has a 10 year warranty! Who else can offer that? Yes, the pump is expensive, but in 10 years, how many 300.00 pumps do you think you would replace? And how much is your livestock worth compared to a pump?
-this pump has a programmable control which allows you to create flow programs. On this aspect alone I was sold, because I don't want to have any internal power heads in the tank. No gyres, no mp40's, nothing. I wanted a pump strong enough to create a modified "sort of closed loop" effect. More on this later because it has to do with the tank. What this means is that I can use the main circ pump to provide all my circulation in the tank and have it on a day/night program. Or at least this is the plan right now.
Lighting is tbd. It will be a suspended light, and since this is a low light tank we have lots of choices.

Enough for now. I need to get photos in this thread.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Aracana Ornata. Ornate Boxfish.
Our permanent tank is not running yet.
The current 30 gallon tank is too small.
The chiller was put on the quarantine tank so we could get "Kissy" (not my choice of names) delivered.
The plan was to have Coldwater Marine Aquatics ship the fish to Buffalo airport, I would drive down and pick it up, bring it through customs. The fish was put on the last flight out from Portland via SouthWest Airlines. It flew out at 1 AM arrived in Buffalo same night.
Picked up TeeMee at 6AM. She was my navigator, and also had a small shipment arriving in Buffalo so we could take care of 2 orders in one trip.
We timed this order to arrive with some other pieces Big Show Frags would have available. Could not pass up the chance to check out what was available in Hamilton.
Going into the U.S. On 9-11 was probably a stupid idea, but crossing the border at 8AM was ok. Good thing it wasn't later in the day....
Fish was waiting at airport, super easy to pick up!
I had my paperwork for customs, of course got the "you paid how much for a fish?" from the agent, paid my HST, took all of 10 minutes. It's good to be organized.
Dropped off TeeMee, drove north to Hwkestone, home by 3.
Photos to follow.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Unpacking the box. Left the fish in the bag, put it in a bucket to do the acclimation.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

I now know I should check PH when I open the bag. Since he has been packed for over 24 hours, there is going to be a PH drop and ammonia build up which is going to be stressful. I did slow water changes, used the Aqua Vitro Alpha to counteract the ammonia and added a bubbler. Checking the PH will tell you how bad the difference between the tank and bag is, so the appropriate steps can be taken.
I chatted with someone who suggested that if the PH is really low (more than 2 points separation), the ammonia levels are going to skyrocket which is really hard on the fish, and it may be a better option to match temp and salinity and get the fish into the tank asap. I've got to understand more about this option because it raises a lot of other questions. Will leave this right now for future discussion.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

After a two hour acclimation, "Kissy" was moved into the tank.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Kissy looks fine this morning. He is a very active swimmer. Acts a bit like a trigger in that he is doing circles around the strawberry anemone that has attached itself to the bottom of the tank. Will see how he eats today. I have been told he was fed Larrys Fish Frenzy chunky, so may need to see about getting some of that. For now I have the normal Larrys fish frenzy, which is smaller.
One eye is cloudy and I will have to monitor that. I hope it is just from shipping, and will wait and see before treating it. If needed, I may do an antibacterial, but not before more research. For now, just letting him settle in.
Will post a better photo later, if he holds still.


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

wow. amazing!


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

fesso clown said:


> wow. amazing!


I was so excited yesterday. I feel very honoured to be able to have this fish and also recognize the responsibility to keep such an amazing creature. The amazing is the fish. He is truly one of the coolest creatures I have ever seen.

If anyone has any thoughts, or advice, or comments, please let me know. I welcome all input and will try to do right by this fish. This is a huge learning experience and I want to do the best I can for him and his future tank mates. Which hopefully will include a girl friend.

And of course, if anyone wants to visit, you are welcome.


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## Jmbret (Nov 6, 2010)

I am so happy Kissy arrived and she is looking mighty beautiful 

Congrats!!


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