# Anyone uses Turface, Soil Master Select, or equivalent?



## LTPGuy

Hi,

I've just read some info and may be dated on SMS or Turface. One post said there's a company in Brampton that sells them for $20 for 50lb (4 years ago!).

I am quite curious about using this as a substrate supplement as a form of nutrient backup in addition to PPS-Pro that I am trying now.

I'll probably keep a bottom layer of SMS and cap it with some fine gravel I am currently using.

*As I rescape more often than I like, I would like to hear from anyone who has used it to comment about issues with clouding and messiness when rescaping.*

As an example, I've used kitty litter in the past with success, but it does gets a little messy when pulling out plants.

I recently tried Mirac..Gro. soil, and the plants had great root system. The problem came when I had to rescape. Let's just say I won't be going that route soon if ever!

Thanks in advance for your comments.


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## coldmantis

rona sells shultz aqua soil. used it a while back, I think it was under 10 bucks per bag. It lowers your ph/kh though.


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## LTPGuy

Is this aqua soil similar to the Turface, or it is soil? I am interesting on material that doesn't make too much mess when rescaping.


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## coldmantis

pretty sure it's exactly like sms.

this is shultz aqua soil


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## Fishyfishyfishy

I like Turface. It's cheap. 

Shultz aqua soil is good and cheap too. I dont' use it myself though, but I will soon.

They are like flourite, not messy


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## bettaforu

This is the soil I use for all of my shrimps, been using it for years now. I keep my Taiwans, Tigers, CRS in this.

It is the same as Shultz's Aquasoil. You can purchase it in 50# bags only from Plant Pro in Brampton.

I grow all my moss and other plants in this with CO2 and T5HO lighting, and
they are growing like crazy.

It will drop your PH below 6 so unless you have a meter to check there is no way to tell just how low your PH is.


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## LTPGuy

Fishyfishyfishy said:


> I like Turface. It's cheap.
> 
> Shultz aqua soil is good and cheap too. I dont' use it myself though, but I will soon.
> 
> They are like flourite, not messy


Thanks for answering my biggest question about messiness!

What's the cost of Aqua Soil vs Turface vs Flourite? I've never used any of these, but I am very encouraged by everyone's comments.



bettaforu said:


> This is the soil I use for all of my shrimps, been using it for years now. I keep my Taiwans, Tigers, CRS in this.
> 
> It is the same as Shultz's Aquasoil. You can purchase it in 50# bags only from Plant Pro in Brampton.
> 
> I grow all my moss and other plants in this with CO2 and T5HO lighting, and
> they are growing like crazy.
> 
> It will drop your PH below 6 so unless you have a meter to check there is no way to tell just how low your PH is.


Ok, so Turface will lower my pH. This is great for CRS and other softwater shrimp then! I'll have to start another thread in the Invert forum.

That aside, I've read that aquasoil and Turface are similar but not identical. Can anyone who has used aquasoil comment on the pH effect?


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## Ik0eS

Another alternative is Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb. I have been using it for years. And also have experience using the kitty litter Special Kitty (non-clumping and odorless), however it is much smaller than the Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb and easier to break down and prone to mudding the water column. Both of them are similar that comes from fuller's earth (either so called montmorillonite or diatomaceous earth clay).

It's better just to wash them few times to clean the dust residue (use a mask if you have one) and clean it outside the house. Washing them too much will crumbles the clay and thus make more the dust residuals apparent. So just wash them gently. It will cloud your aquarium and you need to run your filter and let it settle for days.

I'm using them both in my planted and shrimps tanks. Advantages are good in cation-exchange capacity (CEC), easier for the plants to spread its roots and it's is very light for my shrimp to scavenge around it.

Also before I use it for the planted tank I soaked it in a micronutrient solution so it will be much more effective -has an abilities to absorb compounds.

It is available in your local supermarket and special hardware stores. Price range will be $5 - $10.

For water parameters you can search it in the other sources. (I don't test since it's not essential to my setups)


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## bettaforu

I have both Aquasoil and Turface in my tanks....no difference whatsoever! 

PH is Low...IF you just keep the soil by itself it stays around 6.5-7, but if you add Peat Moss in a sandwish layer like I do for the plant tank, the PH drops off the scale down below 6 (I don't have a meter so don't know how low it is) 

I mineralize with Montmorillionite Clay so that takes care of lack of minerals, and I just use Flourish for the plants.

I have also pulled up plants by the roots out of this soil and it settles back down in seconds...no mess, no problem to my shrimps either. 

I rinse mine about 5 times in hot water before putting it in the new tank, and fill the tank up by pouring water over my sponge filter so it doesn't disturb a lot of residue that might still remain. Ive put shrimps in the tank
2 days later with NO problems.


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## Sameer

Alot of people use Safe-T-Sorb. I just wanted to know how long does it take before it breaks down? When it does, I guess Ill have to uproot everything and siphon out. I know safe-T keeps the water soft, only for a few months. Im looking into keeping my water soft somehow, safely (without high changes in pH) and affordably.


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## LTPGuy

So what you're saying is that Aquasoil and Turface do not change the pH. It is your peat that is lowering the pH.

I am very encourage to hear about the cleaniness of these products.

Thank you all for your inputs.



bettaforu said:


> I have both Aquasoil and Turface in my tanks....no difference whatsoever!
> 
> PH is Low...IF you just keep the soil by itself it stays around 6.5-7, but if you add Peat Moss in a sandwish layer like I do for the plant tank, the PH drops off the scale down below 6 (I don't have a meter so don't know how low it is)
> 
> I mineralize with Montmorillionite Clay so that takes care of lack of minerals, and I just use Flourish for the plants.
> 
> I have also pulled up plants by the roots out of this soil and it settles back down in seconds...no mess, no problem to my shrimps either.
> 
> I rinse mine about 5 times in hot water before putting it in the new tank, and fill the tank up by pouring water over my sponge filter so it doesn't disturb a lot of residue that might still remain. Ive put shrimps in the tank
> 2 days later with NO problems.


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## Ik0eS

Sameer said:


> Alot of people use Safe-T-Sorb. I just wanted to know how long does it take before it breaks down? When it does, I guess Ill have to uproot everything and siphon out. I know safe-T keeps the water soft, only for a few months. Im looking into keeping my water soft somehow, safely (without high changes in pH) and affordably.


For Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb, I'm using it for 3 years now without changing it. And it's still alright (used in planted tank). However for the Special Kitty (non-clumping and odorless) for about 3 years using it in my other tank it seems starting to break up into smaller pieces (used in shrimp tank). Again the Special Kitty's clay are much more softer and smaller compare to the Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb. So it depend on the applications.

Note :
The Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb that I got have distinct colorations similar to flourite substrate. And the Special Kitty have a grey/white color. It will be noticeable when you wet the clay substrates (might be depends where they mined and how they process it).


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## Sameer

Thank you!!!! O do have flourite, so the colour will go nicely. Due to its lightness, Im thinking of maybe setting it as a middle layer. But I know over time it will all mix up. 


As for soaking it up, how much do you do it? For one bag of STS you dose x ml of trace? how about the concentration of trace (the mixture you made).


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## Ik0eS

One bag of Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb is alot. Unless of course you have a big tank. I'm using the PPS-PRO dosing ratio of the trace elements. Don't overdue it when you soak it, especially if you have livestock in your tank. I just leave it overnight in the solution.

Just remember when washing the clay substrates it already saturated in water so either dry it again to maximize the absorption or soak it in trace after washing (either way it will be used up). Again soaking the clay substrates won't last long you will need to dose trace in the long run. If your using different tank and dosing setup then the the plant nutrient intake will varies.

This is an initial solution for giving the plant a head start in micro-nutrition.


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## Sameer

Yea I EI dose anyway. I just wanted to know incase I want to redo my setup, I might end up adding this. The only reason you need to soak it is initially when you start dosing your aquarium, all the gravel is soaking the nutrients. So you need to do bigger doses.


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## LTPGuy

Can some comment on whether a capping layer of gravel is need for all of the "clay" mentioned? I hear comment about them being light, but could that be air trapped in the "clay"?

By themselves, can they hold down plants. Can you mention what plants are being held down. Thanks


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## Ik0eS

Capping it with a heavier substrate will surely help. Especially if your planting leafy plants and easily affect by the water movements. However once the plant is rooted it will be strongly anchor and the root system will be much more happier and successful. But capping it's optional. 

The Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb can absorb liquids also used in oil spills in the shops or chemical spills in a laboratories. In safety hazard protocols usage its has potential as an absorbent. Thus by having a absorption potential it will be heavier or gain a little bit weight. 

Unlike a sponge it works differently. It has minimum/limited absorption criteria.


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## Ik0eS

LTPGuy said:


> ...Can you mention what plants are being held down...


Here are the following rooted plants held (by experience) in the tank using Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb:

1. Hygrophila difformis 
2. Cork Screw Vals
3. 20" Amazon Swords 
4. Sagittaria sp. 
5. Cryptocoryne (green/brown) sp.
6. Hydrocotyle sp.
7. Blyxa japonica
8. Cabomba sp.
9. Echinodorus sp.
10. Hygrophila polysperma
11. Hemianthus micranthemoides
12. Egeria densa

etc...


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## LTPGuy

Ik0eS said:


> Here are the following rooted plants held (by experience) in the tank using Oil Dry - Safe-T-Sorb:
> 
> 1. Hygrophila difformis
> 2. Cork Screw Vals
> 3. 20" Amazon Swords
> 4. Sagittaria sp.
> 5. Cryptocoryne (green/brown) sp.
> 6. Hydrocotyle sp.
> 7. Blyxa japonica
> 8. Cabomba sp.
> 9. Echinodorus sp.
> 10. Hygrophila polysperma
> 11. Hemianthus micranthemoides
> 12. Egeria densa
> 
> etc...


Thanks for this list.

Can you clarify whether Oil-Dri Safe-T-Sorb is one product or is that two products, namely Oil-Dri and Safe-T-Sorb.

Can you also let us know where you got your specifically, and for how much.

If you can post a photo of the bag it came in, that would be helpful.

I am reading some people indicating that Oil-Dry break down into mush. I trust your material doesn't from the fact that you have used them for 3 years+. I wonder if there are actually different brand or version.

Here is a comment a member from another forum posted..



> ere was a little more info I was able to get from the company:
> 
> "SafeTSorb is kiln-dried, calcined and milled natural Montmorillonite Clay with medium bulk density, medium sorptive capacity, average surface area and high hardness"
> 
> Think that pretty much sums it up eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will continue to monitor this particular tank over the next few weeks and see what the parms do.


Isn't Montmorillonite Clay suppose to be good for the shrimps?

The consensus is that they do soften water and lower pH. I am very curious and wonder if this is part of the adsorption process. Another member noted the KH was being absorb to a certain limit.


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## bettaforu

I don't cap any of the clay soil tanks. I have blyxa, vals, cabomba, eriocaulon, anubias, and a few others I can't remember the names of planted in just the soil.

The clay does keep the soil lower than 7.6 tap brings it down to around 7, but the addition of the layer of peat moss in between lowers it down past 6.

Just pulled up all my plants for the auction and no mess at all, no ammonia either...I have shrimps in this tank and everyone including the otto is fine.


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## Ik0eS

*Where To Buy Oil Dri/ Safe T Sorb (Safety Absorbent)*

* - Post Still In Revision - *

*Informations regarding alternative substrate (This applies to Oil Dri/ Safe T Sorb or similar clay substrates) *








*PLEASE BE ADVICE: CLARIFICATION TO THOSE WHO WANT TO USE THIS **SUBSTRATE*









1. *Clay subtrates* no matter what the usage in the long run* it will disintegrate* due to a several factors (external and internal influence), but it will takes awhile. I'm lucky that it stays good in the long run.

2. No matter what the manufacturer claim that there is less cloudiness or dust. *There will be **cloudiness and **dust *in your initial setup -*you will need a good filtration system*.* Crystalline Silica (Quartz) is bad for your lungs (Check the MSDS) - DON'T ** Inhale And Avoid The Dust*. Please *limit your exposure* and* use a proper mask* or* Proper Protection Equipment (PPE)* and wash it outdoor. And please* refrain putting faunas* during the initial setup. *The fine crystalline silica might be a choking hazard **to your faunas*.

3. *Fuller's Earth/ Bentonite* is* loosely usage and a general term* for *either montmorillonite* or *diatomaceous* clay.* It depend where they mined the clay*. Please check if it is really a *montmorillonite*. The characteristic of the clay will depends of the processing procedure of the manufacturer. (i.e. density, color, quality, composition, mined location etc.)

It took me one year before I decided to used this as a substrate (for many such reasons). Please read the other resources if this substrate is ideal for you. These clay material is really good alternative substrate for your plants.

*______________________________________________________*

*Distributors and Resellers:**

On Sale Now!!! $9.00 THIS IS A GOOD PRICE**








http://www.fastenal.com/web/product...QRyyRfyGqkpmypG7kljyF1P2JNspLNJyrmKkvl2LL6Vwg

http://www.moltan.com/Products/absorbentsClay.htm

http://www.staples.ca/en/Cliff-Safe-T-Sorb-Oil-Absorbent/product_930329_2-CA_1_20001

http://www.hollistons.com/cart.php

http://www.commercialoil.ca/sheets/view/182

http://www.torontosalt.com/products-commercial-absorbents.php

http://www.unisource.ca/unisource/e...safe-t-sorb-181kg-oil-absorbent-1-cs-ss154480

http://www.ontariosafetyproducts.com/images/pdf/ER_SpillKits.pdf

http://www.nexdaysupply.ca/NexDay-Supply-Products/Ice-Melter-Spills-Sweeping-Compounds-Absorbents

**$9.95 THIS IS A GOOD PRICE**








http://davcosupplies.com/catalog/warehouse-supplies
*
*
Google Search Keywords:

*Oil Dri, Safe T Sorb, substrate, aquarium

Janitorial Cleaning Supplies, Restaurant Supplies, Foodservice Supplies, Hotel & Motel Supplies, Warehouse & Shipping Supplies, Facility & Grounds Maintenance Supplies, Safety Supplies, Property Management Supplies, Disposable Eco Products and Green Cleaning Products. *
______________________________________________________

Mineral Informations:
*
http://www.mindat.org/

http://www.mindat.org/min-2821.html

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/mapdata/

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/index.html

http://www.bentonite.us/Bentonite%20Proper.htm

http://www.aboutclay.com/info/Articles/bentonite_montmorillonite.htm

http://www.mineralszone.com/minerals/bentonite.html

http://www.sfbakc.org/Articles/clayvsclay.html
* ______________________________________________________

**Resources:*

Resource Link1
Resource Link2
Resource Link3
Resource Link4
Resource Link5

*______________________________________________________

**NOTE:*

Hope this helps. I'll further revise and polished this post in foreseeable future (Note: All the future post regarding on this matter or that I found will be only posted in this section, only to limit the clutters). Thanks.

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=320131#post320131

*______________________________________________________*

*Warning And Disclaimer: Use This Information At Your Own Risk*

*Please read the labels of the ingredients or materials that you are using. If the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) is not available, it is imperative that you search and research it online (eg. MSDS, safety information usage, etc.). I'm not or will not be responsible for your own action or your lack of better understanding thereof. By doing or applying this research, I'm not or will not be liable to your own doing or actions and consequences (i.e. the results). Please use your common sense and ask an adult for supervisions. This is just for reference and research purposes only.
(Not For Human Consumption)*

_*To be continued...*_


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## LTPGuy

*Staples Dot CA*

Of all places, Staples.ca is selling Safe-T-Sorb for $19.96. Spend another $0.04 one something and they will ship it to your door FREE - that is free shipping, not free clay!

Just order a bag earlier today. I'll do a how bunch of test once received.

The reason I like Safe-T-Sorb is because it's ~90% montmorillnite and the remainder crystaline silicia (quartz). Someone told me montmorillnite clay is good for shrimps, and apparent for human too.

The fact is, some here has already used it for 3 years+ with good result. No break down, no dust, and hold plants reasonably well.

I looked at the MSDS and oil dri is 90% fuller earth. A member or two in another forum indicated that it breaks down quickly into mush.


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## Sameer

LTPGuy said:


> ...
> The fact is, some here has already used it for 3 years+ with good result. No break down, no dust, and hold plants reasonably well.
> ...


Thats why Im eyeing safety. It also keeps your water soft for a few months.


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## bettaforu

Im using the turface/aquasoil in my tanks both shrimps and plants and have done for over 3 years, I have never noticed it breaking down....my plants love it too. 

I add fine layer of peat moss and montmorillionite clay powder to mineralize it before adding another layer of the turface soil. Im cycling a tank right now with ADA Amazonia in it and what a mess, even just moving a plant around causes a cloud of black silt to rise up. If you rinse the clay 5 times in hot water before putting it in the tank you will not have any dust whatsoever, and the red will have rinsed out by then.


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## LTPGuy

Ik0eS has a point about safety.

Now with regard to Safe-T-Sorb.

I got a bag from Staples for $20. The brand is "Cliff Safe-T-Sorb" and the MSDS indicates that it's made mostly of Monmorillinite Clay.

A little steep, but that's the going price. It's delivered to your door free so I can't complain. It will cost me $5 to drive anywhere now a day.

Having rinsed it several time, I mix 70g of moist clay to 500mL of water. I let it sit for 12 hours and measure the pH. The clay brought my filtered water (ceramic-carbon) pH from 8.5 to 7.5.

After doing 100% water change for 5 times, the pH is still 7.5.

It appears that the clay DO NOT affect GH or KH, but will have to run more test to validate this.

It is a little light as substrate, but I am planting HC right now so it's not an issue yet. Maybe later when the HC get established and there are tearing.


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## LTPGuy

Hmm, I thought I updated the water test on Cliff Safe-T-Sorb. Maybe I did it under a separate thread.

I started a UGF using the clay as the media in a 2 litre container. The ratio of water to clay was about 1:10 in volume.

After two days, I measured twice, and the KH was ZERO. GH appears to be unaffected. pH is currently at 6.5 from 8.2.

I have had guppies and shrimps in the setup and they appeared to show no sign of stress.

The clay is a little light, and clouds up a little when plants are pulled. The dust settles quickly. 3/4" of the clay is holding down 12" long amazon sword, Pogostemon Stellata, Ludwigia Repen, Micranthemum Umbrosum, Vallisneria asiatica var. biwaensis.

Anyone else measure similar parameter with Turface and Aquasoil?

I can't find aquasoil anywhere. Anyone know?


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