# Angelfish Ammonia burns?



## carbonlist

I recently rinsed my filters ...all at once... STUPID ME. This is what I think happened but please let me know if I am wrong: Rinsed filters = killed bacteria = lots of ammonia = BLACK HOLES/SCARS on my breeding pair of angelfish...

I am treating it with some ammo-lock, 30% water change, some melafix...anything else?


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## dl88dl

carbonlist said:


> I recently rinsed my filters ...all at once... STUPID ME. This is what I think happened but please let me know if I am wrong: Rinsed filters = killed bacteria = lots of ammonia = BLACK HOLES/SCARS on my breeding pair of angelfish...
> 
> I am treating it with some ammo-lock, 30% water change, some melafix...anything else?


Did you rinse with the old aquarium water or tap water? If tap water than you kill most if not all the good bacteria. You should try and get your water quality back up again instead of using too much chemicals. The ammo-lock and melafix should be enough but a 50% to 75% WC would be better choice and a 15% to 20% daily water change until the ammonia is 0 again.


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## bae

If there were enough ammonia to damage the skin of the fish, their gills would have been lethally damaged. Something else is causing the skin lesions.

Can you post a picture of your fish? That will help a lot in diagnosis.

Btw, I've often rinsed filters with Toronto tap water with no bad effects.


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## blackninja

In addition to the WC and ammo lock try some methylene blue. It is good for fish suffering from ammonia and nitrite poisoning. It gets them out of that shock state.


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## dl88dl

bae said:


> Btw, I've often rinsed filters with Toronto tap water with no bad effects.


Unless you are lightly stocked and have multi filters running but I still don't recommend rinsing in tap water...not a good practice


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## blackninja

Do you think for those who use HOB filters which are pretty small anyways and hold very little good bacteria, washing the mechanical media with tap water can actually harm the cycled state of the tank? 
I agree it is safer to use the same water in the tank to clean them. I have 2 HOB I will clean one with tap water when it really gets clogged and I am in a rush but seldom both. The filter is an emperor 400 which gets tap water rinse and the other is an AC70 which gets the tank water rinse.


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## dl88dl

blackninja said:


> Do you think for those who use HOB filters which are pretty small anyways and hold very little good bacteria, washing the mechanical media with tap water can actually harm the cycled state of the tank?
> I agree it is safer to use the same water in the tank to clean them. I have 2 HOB I will clean one with tap water when it really gets clogged and I am in a rush but seldom both. The filter is an emperor 400 which gets tap water rinse and the other is an AC70 which gets the tank water rinse.


If the HOB is a mechanical use only then it does not matter but still old water is better and since you have another HOB that is bio so you should be ok.
BTW, what if you use tap water treated with Prime before you rinse the HOBs


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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> If the HOB is a mechanical use only then it does not matter but still old water is better and since you have another HOB that is bio so you should be ok.
> BTW, what if you use tap water treated with Prime before you rinse the HOBs


Super response dl88dl. I try to use de-clorinated water but sometimes you need a strong jet of water to dislodge those sticky gluey NLS STUCK TO THE FILTERS. and plain soaking or rinsing won't do. Now don't get technical on me and suggest I get some simoniz pressure washer.


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## dl88dl

blackninja said:


> Super response dl88dl. I try to use de-clorinated water but sometimes you need a strong jet of water to dislodge those sticky gluey NLS STUCK TO THE FILTERS. and plain soaking or rinsing won't do. Now don't get technical on me and suggest I get some simoniz pressure washer.


Hey Vince, I think those simoniz pressure washer should do the trick


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## blackninja

I was worried asking someone technical like you to suggest solutions for everyday problems but I like forward thinking people. Can I used the same simoniz pressure washer to scrub the fish off ick and fungal deposits instead of using chemicals/medication which are known cancer causing carcinogen. I KNOW THE MUCOUS PROTECTION IS VULNERABLE but if already infected why use poisons to treat the problem. Just asking.


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## carbonlist

*Safe...*

What looked like fin rot and ammonia burns were just my imagination. I finally remembered I forgot to turn the lights off that night and the male angelfish must've got a little rough on the female angelfish.

The male tore a small hole in the dorsal of the female (what I thought was finrot) and took nips on the sides (the black holes which I though was ammonia burns). All have healed and are back to normal. I finally checked my water for nitrates and ammonia...both are <5. It took me a while as I had to make my own test solutions =(


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## Roberacer1

I am reading this and a little shocked at what I am reading. Even in a tank that is using a canister type filter (limited air supply there) the main residence for nitrifying bacteria is the filter. Yes they do live in the gravel and on everything in the tank hence the reason more gravel is better but the filtration system is the bulk of their home. Kill that and you run the risk of killing everything in the tank. What to do if you do that. Yes, ammoloc is good and water changes will help you in a disaster like that. Understand this is a disaster situation but I don't hear many people talking about adding bacteria. This is our best and first line of defense. In a new tank if you add Nitrosomonus and Nitrobacter to the tank right away you increase bio load capacity instantly and also exponentially speedup the time it takes to stabilize the tank for inhabitants. While destroying the colony in the filter is not quite the same as a new tank it is very close as a situation. Anaerobic bacteria (AKA Nitrifying bacteria) are available from a number of suppliers. Cycle (Hagen) and Fritzyme (Fritz) are just some. Big Als has it's own which works just fine if you shop there. The thing to know here is that unless they put something else in with the bacteria there is no limit to how much you can put in the tank. The more colonists you start with the bigger that colony can get and with that the faster that colony will expand too. Again the nitrogen cycle is the key to keeping fish in an aquarium. Understand that, know how to manipulate things within those confines and you will see no limit to success in this.


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## blackninja

Roberacer1 said:


> I am reading this and a little shocked at what I am reading. Even in a tank that is using a canister type filter (limited air supply there) the main residence for nitrifying bacteria is the filter. Yes they do live in the gravel and on everything in the tank hence the reason more gravel is better but the filtration system is the bulk of their home. Kill that and you run the risk of killing everything in the tank. What to do if you do that. Yes, ammoloc is good and water changes will help you in a disaster like that. Understand this is a disaster situation but I don't hear many people talking about adding bacteria. This is our best and first line of defense. In a new tank if you add Nitrosomonus and Nitrobacter to the tank right away you increase bio load capacity instantly and also exponentially speedup the time it takes to stabilize the tank for inhabitants. While destroying the colony in the filter is not quite the same as a new tank it is very close as a situation. Anaerobic bacteria (AKA Nitrifying bacteria) are available from a number of suppliers. Cycle (Hagen) and Fritzyme (Fritz) are just some. Big Als has it's own which works just fine if you shop there. The thing to know here is that unless they put something else in with the bacteria there is no limit to how much you can put in the tank. The more colonists you start with the bigger that colony can get and with that the faster that colony will expand too. Again the nitrogen cycle is the key to keeping fish in an aquarium. Understand that, know how to manipulate things within those confines and you will see no limit to success in this.


carbonlist retracted his prior statement about ammonia burns and offered a less sophisticated explanation for the fin damage to his female angelfish. It was a simple case of domestic violence. The male fish beat the female. 
Does anyone know how long those anaerobic bacteria survive in those bottle containers? They don't do too well in the filters/media unless a decent amount of oxygen is available which the constant flow of water provides. But in bottled form, what are we missing here?


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## Roberacer1

I read and understood the retraction which in fact made sense to me as well. The issue that I found a little disturbing is the discussion of whether it was a big deal if one kills off the bacteria in their filter media or not. The answer is unequivocally it matters a lot and I don't think you will find one zoologist, marine biologist or aqua-biologist who would disagree with that statement. It is a globally accepted position which is based upon commonly known scientific data. Discussion of that really denotes a lack of understanding of the nitrogen cycle in general.
Bacteria in a bottle... It is true that the stuff does have a shelf life. So look at that when you buy it. It would seem however that maybe it is thought that 1. the stuff is fake or 2. doesn't exist. It is not snake oil and it does work as I have shared on this site and a very viable. This is a very basic and simple solution to an obviously more global problem than one would think.


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## blackninja

I don't know if we have any marine biologist /aqua-biologist on this panel to allay our suspicions. If you take the recent gulf BP disaster as an example. The same scientist are at a loss to explain the long term effects of the oil spill on marine life and even befuddled how quickly the oil disappeared from natural causes. They expect to know the answers in the next 20-30 years. So lets quantify what the practical hobbyist is saying here which are of immediate benefit.
Some wash their filters with tap water and have not experienced any bad effects. Some use the same tank water to rinse their filter media and others do a 50-50 one filter with tap water and the other with tank water. All the examples demonstrate a knowledge of good bacteria present in the filters/tank and necessary to maintain the nitrogen cycle. To rinse a single HOB filter periodically with tap water would hardly disrupt a well cycled tank.
We have scientist on both sides of every debate.
1.The tobacco companies used scientist to argue their case
2.Global warming have scientist on both sides of the issue
3.Scientist have observed many ape like qualities among their peers and constructed an elaborate explanation.
Just share your personal experience in the hobby and leave the high flung dung to those who live in tall ivory towers. LoL.


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## Roberacer1

Yes we have industry uses scientists to argue just about everything and anything but in the case of Tobacco the industry was paying them off. BTW in case you missed it they lost and were disgraced. Global warming... have the scientists that are saying it is not happening been actually heeded worldwide...? Look around. What is the government doing with clean air laws, trees and windmills? Those guys are known as idiots in their professions!
What you are saying is equally absurd. We know that most of the colony of nitrifying bacteria live in the filter. The city puts enough chlorine in the water to kill most bacteria. Some strains aren't so easy to kill either. IE e-choli... remember Walkerton? On many days you can actually smell it.


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## blackninja

No one is denying washing filters with tap water will kill all the bacteria present in them and it is not recommended. But what you are missing are the operative word/words "with no bad effects" after washing the filter with tap water.
Waste fish byproducts decompose and settle at the bottom of tanks. The gravel or sand also act to provide the surface area for bacteria to attach to which participates in the cycling process. There is more surface area provided by the substrate media in the tank than there is in the little HOB filters (which are generally inadequate anyways) for the bacterial to colonize. It might be different with a large canister filter but that is not what is being discussed here.


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## Roberacer1

Yes some live in the gravel hence why an undergravel filter works at all. It is just that with a non under gravel filtered tank the water in the gravel is the least aerated in the entire tank and therefore the amount of bacteria are less. Also those same bacteria live on everything in the tank. Under normal circumstances with a well established tank you probably can get away with it once in a while but that is what we are talking about. You could in fact take your fish out of the tank, leave them on the floor for a time and if the whole situation was good you could get away with doing that. Fish do need water to breath just like human can't breath underwater. The fact is though it is not good practice. How much frustration would the confusion create for a novice? They are hear reading this stuff too.


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## Roberacer1

I forgot the part about the HOB filter. Depends on the unit and what media one has in it. That is why the Aqua Clear units are generally the preferred systems when it comes to hang on back (HOB) (AKA overflow) powered filters. There is more media that actually gets aerated water through it.


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## blackninja

Roberacer1 said:


> Yes some live in the gravel hence why an undergravel filter works at all. It is just that with a non under gravel filtered tank the water in the gravel is the least aerated in the entire tank and therefore the amount of bacteria are less. Also those same bacteria live on everything in the tank. Under normal circumstances with a well established tank you probably can get away with it once in a while but that is what we are talking about. You could in fact take your fish out of the tank, leave them on the floor for a time and if the whole situation was good you could get away with doing that. Fish do need water to breath just like human can't breath underwater. The fact is though it is not good practice. How much frustration would the confusion create for a novice? They are hear reading this stuff too.


So what you are really objecting to is a comment made earlier by one of the senior members about using tap water to clean filters without any bad effects and doing it often.

"Btw, I've often rinsed filters with Toronto tap water with no bad effects."

I am sure most novices would easily recognize who was confused here and respectfully hold back their comments.


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## Lee_D

Personally, I think your both missing the point. The key word here is "Clean". I'm not going to take my filter off the back of my tank, swish it a few times around the toilet and say "Tada! It's clean." Damn straight I'm going to rinse it with tap water. The key is what you rinse and what you don't rinse.

All my tanks have two filters. I tend not to clean both at the same time. When I clean the filter I clean the entire filter and sponge with tap water. I want it "Clean". That includes removing the bacteria. I don't use soap or anything, just straight tap water. The key here is, I use the biomax filter media in my aquaclears instead of the charcoal. These I place in tank water before I clean the filter. I replace them into the filter after cleaning. These are my bacteria colonies, the foam is my mechanical filtration. When the Biomax gets old, I replace them one at a time. Canister filters are easier because they allow several layers of Biomax.

I don't claim to be an expert, this is just the way I do it. And a thorough cleaning of a filter removes less than 30 percent of the total bacteria in the entire filtering capacity.


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## blackninja

The objection raised by Roberacer1 was quite straight forward. Using tap water to rinse filters is a bad practice because it kills good bacteria, period. Even the sponge you clean with tap water is colonized by good bacterial.

The example you provided does not cover the many different types of HOB filters that are used. HOB filters made by Marineland, Tetra, Jebo etc. where the mechanical filters are combined with the bio media as inserts which get clogged even before the sponge does and both require a thorough cleaning.

I even provided an example of the two earlier "I have 2 HOB I will clean one with tap water when it really gets clogged and I am in a rush but seldom both. The filter is an emperor 400 which gets tap water rinse and the other is an AC70 which gets the tank water rinse."

AquaClear filters are a lot easier to clean because you mostly have to clean just the sponge. How effective they are is a whole different debate. The rate of flow is so high in the AC filters it is almost like water in water out and very little time for the bacteria to actually break down the chemicals.

In every good practice tank maintenance guide using tap water to clean filters is not recommended which is sound advice to all novices. But cycled tanks can survive and show some tolerance for sloppy house keeping which We are all guilty of.


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## dl88dl

I agree with blackninja that there are tons of good bacterial colonized by the sponge. You should never clean any filters to be crysal clean but clean it enough so it does not clog and I perfer to clean all media in tank water.


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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> I agree with blackninja that there are tons of good bacterial colonized by the sponge. You should never clean any filters to be crysal clean but clean it enough so it does not clog and I perfer to clean all media in tank water.


Thank you Dave. You are the only consistent voice in a sea of doubt. I marvel at your technical assimilation of the facts and your willingness to expose us to the rigors of commonsense. If there were any doubts I would dismiss them without hesitation and compliment you for your clarity of thought.


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