# Sticky  It is not legal to capture or keep any native species.



## KhuliLoachFan

I received the following result back from my Ontario MNR information request.

_My Question: Is it permitted by Ontario law to catch a fish, and retain it indefinitely. Suppose for example, you have a small sunfish and wish to keep it in an aquarium, and never release it into any other body of water, but keep it alive indefinitely in a fish tank. After reading the regulations, I am unclear if this is legal, illegal, or a gray area.
_

*Hello,

Thank you for your enquiry.

As per page 8 of the 2010 Ontario Fishing Regulations Summary;

"It is illegal to transport live fish, other then baitfish, taken from Ontario waters or to transfer or stock any fish into Ontario's waters without a special licence to transport or stock fish".

Unless you are planning on keeping dead sunfish, within your limit, having live ones would be illegal as you can't move live fish (except baitfish) over land.

Generally speaking, it is also illegal to keep most wildlife species in captivity without authorization.

If you would like to look into trying to obtain permits to transport and keep native fish species in captivity, please contact the MNR District Office that manages your area of interest.*

A list of MNR offices and their contact information can be found online at http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/ContactUs/2ColumnSubPage/STEL02_179002.html.

To view the 2010 Ontario Fishing Regulations Summary online, please visit http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/LetsFish/Publication/STEL02_163615.html

Regards,

...

Natural Resources Information Centre
PO Box 7000
Peterborough, ON K9J 8M5
1-800-667-1940
TTY: 1-866-686-6072
Fax: 705-755-1677
[email protected]
http://themnrstore.mnr.gov.on.ca

update: There is an exception for "baitfish" species.


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## Ciddian

Wow KLF, thanks for looking into that. 

I wondered what would happen if you caught some of our invasive. Are you actually allowed to return them to the waters or would you keep/destroy them?

I asked the guy at the bait shop today and he said you have to keep them. I am talking about fish like the round goby, rusty crayfish, etc etc.


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## KhuliLoachFan

I think you would be required to kill anything invasive that you catch - Releasing and transporting, and keeping them are each illegal.

I would also check with the MNR afterwards, and report my catch. They track things like that. Especially if I caught it in the head pond of a dam. A species reaching the head of a dam, could be an important event. Or not. But they would appreciate any information we give them. As partners in protecting Ontario's biodiversity, I think hobbyists can help out by explaining how these laws are intended to protect and conserve native species.

W

Update: I found a really great guide to what is and is not a baitfish in Ontario. [PDF link, LARGE!]


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## Cory

Well, actually, what was said there was that it was illegal without the right permits which is what I've said on this forum many times before but yeah, as I said before, catching and keeping them without a license is illegal. As for invasive species, the law is to kill them and dispose of them properly or to contact the ministry and they'll take it off your hands but you're not supposed to throw them back. Either way, you're supposed to report it to help them out.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Excellent. I wasn't trying to say anybody was saying anything wrong. Simply that my own reading of the reg made me feel unclear about the wording, so I decided to put the question blankly to the MNR, which were very kind in writing me back. This being a place lots of people will read it, maybe this should even be a Sticky post.

W


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## Ciddian

Oohh I see ty! I was planning on doing some trapping at my grans cottage to study whats in the lake there. Kinda wanted to show the kids too..

But I wasn't sure on what to do if I did find any gobys or something like that.

Stickied btw


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## thename123

Great post, this deserves its stickied status


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## bae

KhuliLoachFan said:


> I received the following result back from my Ontario MNR information request.
> 
> "It is illegal to transport live fish, other then baitfish, taken from Ontario waters or to transfer or stock any fish into Ontario's waters without a special licence to transport or stock fish".
> 
> Generally speaking, it is also illegal to keep most wildlife species in captivity without authorization.
> 
> update: There is an exception for "baitfish" species.


Thanks for contacting them and getting Actual Information!

I'm still not clear on whether it is okay to keep baitfish in aquaria, without some kind of license of the sort bait dealers must have. I know there's a regulation that prohibits releasing surplus baitfish in any body of water they weren't caught in. I wonder if I were to obtain some baitfish like Rainbow Darters and breed them, could I sell or give away the fry? Would anyone who bought them need a fishing or bait dealing license?

I guess if I have the opportunity to obtain these fish, I'll look into more closely.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Most, if not all, species require a permit to keep. The baitfish exception I mention is a transport exception. You are also allowed to use traps and nets, as per ontario rules, if you have an angling (fishing) license. If there is a specific thing that says you can keep baitfish without a license, I would like to see where that is in the regs, and we should update this thread.

Any baitfish species is legal to transport, but I can not find anywhere where he says above that you can keep anything, without a license. In general, he says, there are no native species that you are allowed to keep, without a license. So unless you think the MNR guy was hiding something, I think it's pretty much closed off. The MNR person I quoted was VERY specific and very clear.

W


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## thename123

According to this site:

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/LetsFish/2ColumnSubPage/198684.html

We are able to transport a number of darters (classified as baitfish) as we please

the list includes:

Blackside darter 
Fantail darter 
Iowa darter 
Johnny darter 
Least darter 
*Rainbow darter *
River darter 
Tessellated darter

I am unable to say whether or not captivity is allowed but from what i have read it is kinda a gray area when it comes to that sort of idea.


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## Holidays

sounds like you can catch and keep them in the tank just have to get a proper license, and check with local MNR office.


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## Cory

There are regulations on the site about keeping and transporting fish you just have to dig a bit. Most of the stuff is the requirements for the containers (they must be oxygenated etc.) 

Basically, if you just want to see our native fish go ahead and get a nice specimen container, catch them, look at them, and let them go. If you want to get serious about keeping them go to the ministry and talk to someone about getting the right paperwork. If you're genuinely interested, I'm sure something could be worked out to allow breeding and selective sales or something. People get all kinds of special permits for all kinds of things, it just takes some doing hehe.


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## bluegill

Ciddian said:


> Oohh I see ty! I was planning on doing some trapping at my grans cottage to study whats in the lake there. Kinda wanted to show the kids too..
> 
> But I wasn't sure on what to do if I did find any gobys or something like that.
> 
> Stickied btw


kill the gobies, I hate them, then bury them in the dirt


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## Lee_D

I agree. Those regulations, although they seem to be very pricise, are not very clear. Do they mean that those big tanks at the gocery stores with the live rainbow trout are illegal? Do they need a special permit? What's the difference between that and my aquarium?


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## KhuliLoachFan

Lee_D,

As a hobbyist, the point of this thread is to say, (a) buy your fish at the fish store, where everything is licensed already, or (b) go to the MNR and get licensed (serious individuals only, not casual).

I have no doubt that there are amateurs who catch and keep river/lake native ontario species in tanks, but the point of this thread is that anybody who does that and doesn't call the MNR is taking a risk, not only a legal risk, but also possibly they may cause harm to the environment, through their ignorance of proper procedures. That is part of why the laws exist.

The trout at your grocery store are regulated as a food industry regulation. Here we are talking about MNR fishing regs, and baitfish species regs, and hobbyists who keep aquariums and are wondering about taking home a fish they found in a lake or river, in Ontario. The short answer is; If you do, and you don't already have a license, you're breaking the law. As hobbyists, our interests, and the interests of the law, and the people at the MNR coincide; We want healthy stocks, biodiversity, and a respectful and co-operative style of natural resources management. Which means, call the MNR, and abide by the laws, for the good of all of us.

W


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## Cory

KhuliLoachFan said:


> As hobbyists, our interests, and the interests of the law, and the people at the MNR coincide; We want healthy stocks, biodiversity, and a respectful and co-operative style of natural resources management. Which means, call the MNR, and abide by the laws, for the good of all of us.
> 
> W


Well said here.


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## AquariAM

*"It is illegal to transport live fish, other then baitfish, taken from Ontario waters or to transfer or stock any fish into Ontario's waters without a special licence to transport or stock fish".*

Once you have it at home, provided it is in a stationary aquarium, it is no longer being transported. I'm not advising you violate the law. You can not stock a native fish from one lake to another. That's what it says. It says you can not move stock from one place to another. You can not *move* stock period. In other words- the law that was quoted to you was regarding the illegality of MOVING stock from one Ontario waterway to another, and moving ontario freshwater stock in general. It did not, in any way, apply to having one as a pet.


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## Chris S

AquariAM said:


> *"It is illegal to transport live fish, other then baitfish, taken from Ontario waters or to transfer or stock any fish into Ontario's waters without a special licence to transport or stock fish".*
> 
> Once you have it at home, provided it is in a stationary aquarium, it is no longer being transported. I'm not advising you violate the law. You can not stock a native fish from one lake to another. That's what it says. It says you can not move stock from one place to another. You can not *move* stock period. In other words- the law that was quoted to you was regarding the illegality of MOVING stock from one Ontario waterway to another, and moving ontario freshwater stock in general. It did not, in any way, apply to having one as a pet.


There is no need to have a law that does, as it would be redundant. You can't get a sunfish home from the lake to your house and into the aquarium without transporting it, which is illegal. Once it is there, there is no possible way you could argue that it was not illegally transported.

You are arguing for the sake of it


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## AquariAM

Chris S said:


> There is no need to have a law that does, as it would be redundant. You can't get a sunfish home from the lake to your house and into the aquarium without transporting it, which is illegal. Once it is there, there is no possible way you could argue that it was not illegally transported.
> 
> You are arguing for the sake of it


No, I'm not. Who's to say that sunfish wasn't planted by a malicious third party and you wake up one morning and it's just there? It's a stupid incomplete law. What if I bought the fish and someone DELIVERED it to me? Tonnes of loopholes.


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## Lee_D

I agree with AquariAM. The trout at Fortinos are definatly a native fish. Yes, they are now domesticated and farmed. But the the farm is an Ontario Body Of Water. MNR should apply.

I saw a TV show where MNR pulled a Gold Fish out of Lake Ontario. Gold Fish are now a Native Species. Are Gold Fish Illegal?

Yes, I'm being facetiuos. I'm just trying to make the point that "The State has no Business in the Aquariums of Canadians". What goes in the Aquarium is extremely unlikely to come out again.

By the way. The Darter's that started this thread are on the list of bait fish. My Aquarium is a big minnow bucket that I set down for a little bit. I think that makes them legal.


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## bigfishy

Chris S said:


> There is no need to have a law that does, as it would be redundant. You can't get a sunfish home from the lake to your house and into the aquarium without transporting it, which is illegal. Once it is there, there is no possible way you could argue that it was not illegally transported.
> 
> You are arguing for the sake of it


A loop hole (not realistic, but it works) 

so... no transporting live fish...

but...

I caught a large mouth bass in Lake Simcoe. Put it in a bucket with water, but it flopped out for a few metres, and I chased it and put it in the bucket again.

The fish did the process a couple hundred million times and finally it reaches my home and the bass flopped itself into my tank


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## KhuliLoachFan

Summary of the counter argument: "Go ahead and do what you want to do; There's nobody that can stop you".

The MNR official said that keeping almost ANY native species is illegal, unless you have a permit. To get it home, you need to break the law. To keep it, will almost certainly be against the law, unless you have checked with the MNR or have permit papers.

If breaking the law is no concern of yours, at least please respect the public good that law, and order, and resource management represents. If everybody behaved like the laws applied only to other people, then we would end up destroying our natural biodiversity.

W


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## Chris S

Lee_D said:


> Yes, I'm being facetiuos. I'm just trying to make the point that "The State has no Business in the Aquariums of Canadians". What goes in the Aquarium is extremely unlikely to come out again.


They do have business in the aquariums of Canadians when invasive species are introduced via the hobby.


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## buffalo

The truth is kids do it all the time , go out to the stream catch and put in their aquaium. Legal probably not. The world is pretty small now and invasive species are a concern they can come in on ships , in the aquarium trade and probably other ways.
Most people have no idea what the law is and its unlikely anyone will be checking what you have in your aquarium.
However it would be good if they let us know through public info commercials along with what happens when invasive species are introduced.


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## Chris S

buffalo said:


> However it would be good if they let us know through public info commercials along with what happens when invasive species are introduced.


This is a great idea.


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## AquariAM

Lee_D said:


> I agree with AquariAM. The trout at Fortinos are definatly a native fish. Yes, they are now domesticated and farmed. But the the farm is an Ontario Body Of Water. MNR should apply.
> 
> I saw a TV show where MNR pulled a Gold Fish out of Lake Ontario. Gold Fish are now a Native Species. Are Gold Fish Illegal?
> 
> Yes, I'm being facetiuos. I'm just trying to make the point that "The State has no Business in the Aquariums of Canadians". What goes in the Aquarium is extremely unlikely to come out again.
> 
> By the way. The Darter's that started this thread are on the list of bait fish. My Aquarium is a big minnow bucket that I set down for a little bit. I think that makes them legal.


I like you.


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## Riceburner

kids don't need a lic. So if darters are bait fish, they are allowed to catch them.
I like their colours....



Rainbow trout have nice colour too....especially with a bit of yellow wedges....and a sprinkle of green.


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## Cory

The law about moving fish doesn't apply when the fish have been collected and raised properly and are distributed by the proper people. For example, if I had all the right licenses and gear, I could capture, breed and sell the fish within the guidelines the province has set out. If I then sold the fish to AquariAm, it would not have been removed from Ontario waters, and there would be no problem getting it into his tank. For most, this is the only legal way you're going to acquire a native species, from someone who has done all the legal work for you. That said, I don't think the MNR is terribly concerned if a few people here and there want a nice native in their tanks. As long as the fish is well looked after and not released back into the wild it's not going to hurt our fisheries. 
I think the problem lies in someone mass farming the lakes and rivers for the fish as ornamental species as goes on elsewhere in the world. 

I'd actually be interested to hear the rationale behind some of the laws regarding native species but I think the thought process that spawned the laws has long since been lost in all likelihood.


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## bluegill

i contacted the MNR, it would seem that it is problematic for 
an individual to get a permit just to keep native fish in the aquarium at home unless it is bought from a licensed
fish sales store.


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## Big Jim

bluegill said:


> i contacted the MNR, it would seem that it is problematic for
> an individual to get a permit just to keep native fish in the aquarium at home unless it is bought from a licensed
> fish sales store.


I would love to keep sunfish too bad no one has attempted to license and sell them.


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## bae

Big Jim said:


> I would love to keep sunfish too bad no one has attempted to license and sell them.


You can keep non-native species. There are some spectacular ones in the US, and licensed breeders who sell them.


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## ameekplec.

Aquaculture operations (and thus their livestock) also fall under the auspices of the MNR. So to transport said live trout from the store to your home is still illegal, as you're not lisenced to do so. 

Of course the State has a place in what goes in our aquariums. Why do you think there are things like CITES permits?


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## Chris S

Or when we start finding Pacu's and Pirahna's in Lake Ontario. Or when I start seeing red-eared sliders at my cottage. Or how about when invasive species of Camboba clog up waterways? These aren't just stories, they have happened or are happening right now.

I'm sorry, but these laws aren't just the government trying to control our lives, they are important to preserving our natural eco-systems.


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## BillD

If you want to carry this argument to the nth degree, Rainbow Trout may not be native to Ontario, Brown Trout definitely aren't, and carp aren't. These fish still fall under fish and game laws. Baitfish can be kept but some native species that are considered baitfish are endangered and are not allowed to be kept.


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## Cory

I think part of the shame of all this is that if we were able to keep these fish more easily there might be a greater awareness about them and the challenges they face and the regular individual may be more interested in preserving our native species. As it is, most people assume nothing comes out of our waters except boring silver, gray and brown fish and it's no wonder some of them don't care if the pet snakeheads they released killed everything in the lake. They probably figure the fish are more interesting anyways. If they saw what they were really destroying, people who wouldn't protect the environment for its own intrinsic value may do so for other reasons. If someone thought they could make money off of it, the lakes would be even better protected.


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## KhuliLoachFan

There is a lot of money, a huge economic set of forces, at stake here, within which context, our hobby isn't the biggest concern. That is to say, making it easy for us to keep native sunfish for example, doesn't figure in the scheme of things, compared to the huge business and environmental issues around aquaculture (aquatic farming), sport fishing and the huge cottage-country industries around them. 

What I'm trying to say is that I don't expect the MNR gets a lot of calls from hobbyists who want a license to keep a sunfish, and if they do, they will probably do their best to discourage you. Unless you know your way around the regs, and know how to file the paperwork, I expect that they will try to make you go away. In the end, probably that's not a bad way to do things. 

W


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## mauve

bae said:


> You can keep non-native species. There are some spectacular ones in the US, and licensed breeders who sell them.


Would you happen to know any of the breeders?
Thanks!


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## bae

mauve said:


> Would you happen to know any of the breeders?
> Thanks!


You can check the NANFA (North American Native Fish Association) web page, or perhaps track some of them down via aquabid.com. I ran into a site with 'zimmerman' in the name that had a lot of spectacular US spp of sunfish that they were breeding and selling. IIRC, they are in Ohio.


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## Joeee

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Hello,
> "It is illegal to transport live fish,* other then baitfish*, taken from Ontario waters or to transfer or stock any fish into Ontario's waters without a special licence to transport or stock fish".


RAHHHHHH!!!!!!! THEY USED THE WRONG "than".

Sorry, I saw that a while ago and didn't want to post it but it's been bothering me way too much.


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## blackninja

Cory said:


> I think part of the shame of all this is that if we were able to keep these fish more easily there might be a greater awareness about them and the challenges they face and the regular individual may be more interested in preserving our native species. As it is, most people assume nothing comes out of our waters except boring silver, gray and brown fish and it's no wonder some of them don't care if the pet snakeheads they released killed everything in the lake. They probably figure the fish are more interesting anyways. If they saw what they were really destroying, people who wouldn't protect the environment for its own intrinsic value may do so for other reasons. If someone thought they could make money off of it, the lakes would be even better protected.


If you think about it the same applies to the US and Europe, the absence of their native fish in the ornamental fish hobby across these countries. It might have something to do with what was perceived as exotic fish when the interest in ornamental fish took hold in Asia where as North American and western countries took more to sport fishing.
Attention to our indigenous resources was mainly a conservationist effort and protection of the species. The fishing industry is thriving but in a different way and many of the native fish are not suitable for Aquaria.
We might have to take a second look at our conservation approach and possibly broaden our species base to include fish that might be desirable and comparable to our imports if we are to develop this new industry. I have advocated this new direction for quite a while.


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## solarz

Chris S said:


> Or when we start finding Pacu's and Pirahna's in Lake Ontario.


There are piranhas in Lake Ontario? 

In any case, this is like the opposite of introducing invasive species to the natural eco-system. People want to bring native species home for keeping instead of eating.


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## bluegill

thename123 said:


> According to this site:
> 
> http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/LetsFish/2ColumnSubPage/198684.html
> 
> We are able to transport a number of darters (classified as baitfish) as we please
> 
> the list includes:
> 
> Blackside darter
> Fantail darter
> Iowa darter
> Johnny darter
> Least darter
> *Rainbow darter *
> River darter
> Tessellated darter
> 
> I am unable to say whether or not captivity is allowed but from what i have read it is kinda a gray area when it comes to that sort of idea.


are these darter native to ontario ??
where can I catch some ??


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## Darkside

bluegill said:


> are these darter native to ontario ??
> where can I catch some ??


Yes and quite common as well. They're easy to catch with a dip net.


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## mauve

I've been looking for rainbow darters for some time in the creeks outside Toronto, and so far unsuccessfully.
I wouldn't keep them ( I have no facility to simulate their habitat), just to have fun exploring, catching, looking/taking pics, and letting go.


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## Hunter

*baitfish you are only allowed....*

120 in your posession. You are not allowed to sell.

Gavin


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## AquaNeko

solarz said:


> There are piranhas in Lake Ontario?
> 
> In any case, this is like the opposite of introducing invasive species to the natural eco-system. People want to bring native species home for keeping instead of eating.


WTF!? Pihanhas in Lake Ontario? In the mid-sping/summer I can see that happening but what about fall/winter? I need to see proof of this. Oh the swimming nightmares right now.


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## DarkMousy

Hello,

Thank you for your enquiry.

The statement provide from the Natural Resources Information Centre is correct. You may keep any fish that qualifies as a "baitfish" as long as you possess a valid Ontario fishing license, are within the possession limit of 120 baitfish and obtained them by legal means (ie. purchasing them at a bait shop or capture with a regulation sized dip net or baitfish trap).

If you require further assistance please contact the Natural Resources Information Centre at the toll free number below.

Regards,

NRIC web reader - CG
************************************
Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources
Natural Resources Information Centre
300 Water Street,P.O. Box 7000
Peterborough, ON K9J 8M5
1-800-667-1940
TTY: 1-866-686-6072
Fax: 705-755-1677
[email protected]

Perfectly legal to keep anything that qualifies as a baitfish as long as you have under 120 specimens and have a valid fishing license. Not sure what happens when you breed them though.

For information on "baitfish" species --> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/regions/central/pub/baitfish-appat-on/pdf/baitfish-poissons-appats-on_e.pdf


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## muskieboy

Has anyone here ever acquired this collections permit?


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## characinfan

Fishing licenses are available at Canadian Tire stores.


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## muskieboy

No I mean to collect non bait fish. Ex. LMB, sunfish, etc...


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## DarkMousy

Not that I know of, apparently some guys from the Durham club applied for a permit to collect native killies, you could ask around there and see what their results were.


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## Ryan.Wilton

It's only illegal if you get caught 

I've edited this to include that this is meant as an obvious joke. For the benefit of Hunter.


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## John_C

*Gray Area!*

I remember as a kid keeping sunfish, darters, and chubs in my tank, I wonder if this was illegal back then?

I'm guessing this means stocking your pond with natives would be illegal as well? That's such a grey area, because the spread of Koi and goldfish into native waters is a serious issue, especially with the Koi herpes or HV virus, amongst other nasty pathogens! But if people were more encouraged to keep colourful hardy natives as, Pumpkinseeds, and longear sunfish; wouldn't that slow the spread of goldfish and ornamental carp... I shudder to think of the possibility of grass or silver carp ending up in someones pond, only to get into our waterways via the transportation of eggs by flooding or waterfowl !!!


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## smcx

Pond stocking is permissible with the correct permit. 

Keeping "native" rainbow trout (or any other species not designated "bait fish") in a fish tank at home, including transporting them home, is illegal.

- HOWEVER - 

If you ask the MNR nicely, they will more than likely grant you permission if it's just to put a couple in a display tank in your basement depending on the species.

Keeping or transporting invasive species is and should be punishable.


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## snaggle

I found a link listing some bait fish, http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/

I would be cool to look in to getting a permit to keep native fish.


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## John_C

*ohhh..*

I've wondered how easy it is to obtain a license.

AGA does a yearly planted tank competition, and recently they've included a "Biotope" category, for aquariums depicting a particular aquatic niche from anywhere around the World...

It'd be nice to see someone create a biotope on Native species from here in Ontario.

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2012/index1.html


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## DarkMousy

Many species suitable for the average home aquarium would fall under the "bait fish" category. I'm working on a native paludarium that houses small minnow species and chorus frogs (not listed as a scheduled species in the fish and wildlife act and is thus not afforded any sort of protection in Ontario - perfectly legal to collect and keep).


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## John_C

*True..*

This is true.. I've been looking at the provisions over the past couple yrs. Baitfish are fine, so minnow, stickleback, darters I believe too, banded Killies, but no sunfish, perch, or anything else considered a gamefish... Them rainbow darter are nice too! I've kept them before after finding them in the bag with the baitfish I bought for fishing. Their colours rival those of Tropical fish.


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## Jeepcarpenter

You can get a 'farming' license, costs are minimal; it's the wait time and paperwork that is the most hinderance (1yr or more) and proving reasoning why you should be allowed a license. I got off easy doing aquaponics and ward activities though I still don't have one yet but I don't know if aquarium use would suffice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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