# Plant Crazy 70g Planted tank in evolution



## Plant Crazy

I've had a 30g bowfront planted aquarium for the past three years. Finally I splurged an upgraded to a 70g tank. I transferred over the plants, most of the substrate and hardware.

Here's a pic of my 70g planted tank, now approximately 2 weeks old. I've got 6 juvenille discus in there, but they usually only come out during feeding time... still getting used to their surroundings. Some tank specs: lighting with 2 x 150W metal halides, pressurized CO2, Eheim 2213 and 2217 canister filters, flourite substrate. Fertilizing with PMDD and phosphate on daily basis.

The tank looks like a jungle (hard to believe that this pic was taken right after a thorough trimming!).

So far, the only algae is the green spot and green dust algae on the aquarium glass.

I'll post more pics as time progresses.


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## jrs

That looks great. Is that giant hairgrass in the background? I have some in my one tank and it grows vertically very rapidly but it doesn't seem to be spreading well.

jrs


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## holocron

your rotala macrandra is lookin nice! is it showing signs of melting or growing?


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## Plant Crazy

Hi holocron,

I actually can't quite believe it, but this is the first time that I've had rotala macranda that has actually flourished! It's growing at an alarming rate. I've tried growing it previously in my 30g several times, but it'd always melt away, and the few stray strands that would float up and sit up on top of the water would just survive, but never quite grow. Two factors which may make a difference for this plant are: 1- acidic water (my pH is ~6.4, whereas my other tank pH was 6.8-6.9), 2- intense lighting (now, under metal halide lighting, but previously had power compacts).


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## holocron

awesome man. So you decided to up the CO2 then? or did you add something else to bring it down?


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## Brian

The tank looks great and all but I am more concerned about your discus 

How long have you had them? They should have stopped hiding after a couple days, week max.

You probably know this but the natural habitat for discus isn't densely planted.


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## holocron

really? mine took a few weeks to get really cozy.


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## Brian

In my experience it should be a maximum of one week.

I've haD 4 seperate sets of discus and it was true for all of them. The ones I got from Jimmy a few days ago began to beg for food yesterday, the ones from Dragon Aquarium began to beg for food the morning after.

The previous times before these, one set begged for food after a week and the other begged for food the first day.


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## holocron

mine were hungry, but weren't social for weeks. They didn't swim around the tank when someone was in the room... stayed hidden. When someone walked by they would run and hide.


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## Brian

Lol, mine swim up and down the glass whenever I walk by or look in that direction.

Sad thing is I feed them 6-8 times a day, whenever I feel like it.


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## holocron

that's a good thing for those little guys.. you'll have dinner plates in no time. Are you changing the water daily as well?

I did daily 90% water changes when I raised mine.. it was brutal. Thank you python.


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## Brian

I'm doing 25% dailies.

Sometimes I do a 50% daily depending on how I feel about lugging buckets of water to refill my rubbermaid storage bin.


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## nightowl1350

Mine have no place to hide, but you are right Brian, every time they see me they beg for food. It is nice to have some fish I can feed often. I can see them watch me and beg for food when I do a w/c on a fry tank next to theirs. They get the last feeding of the night BEFORE I do the w/c on the fry tank, but they are still cute chen they all look at me working on the other tank. The discus tank is the last w/c most nights.

Wish I could do 90% w/c.....my aged water is downstairs and I don't have a python....it is a sight to see me hauling 2 1/2g pails upstairs for w/c I get a great work out that way  They get about 40-50% daly on the discus tank and my 2 fry tanks upstairs get w/c daily.


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## holocron

nightowl1350 said:


> Wish I could do 90% w/c.....my aged water is downstairs and I don't have a python....it is a sight to see me hauling 2 1/2g pails upstairs for w/c I get a great work out that way  They get about 40-50% daly on the discus tank and my 2 fry tanks upstairs get w/c daily.


man your arms must be HUGE!!


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## Plant Crazy

Well, my discus come out when I tap the glass and put in a cube of bloodworms with tweezers. They all swarm the bloodworms and vigorously accept the food. However, they don't swim about in the front of the tank. They like to huddle about in the back. I think it's a combination of the very intense lighting (300w metal halides), and the fact that they're still adjusting to the tank.

I know you're supposed to do 50% water changes every day (dilute out the hormones and keep the water pristine) and feed them several times a day. Unfortunately due to my busy work schedule, and two kiddies, I only get to feed them twice a day. And, I'm only able to change 50% of the water every 5 to 6 days. I'm not expecting them to grow out very big, and I don't plan on trying to breed discus.


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## Plant Crazy

*Aquascaping update*

Well, several of the stem plants were getting too bushy, and threatened to over take the tank. So I did a major trimming of the hygro sunset, and decided to remove the rotala indica as well as the star grass. I also spread out some of the blyxa auberti and cyperus helferi (background) from the left hand side to the right hand side. I'm hoping to have exclusively long grassy plants in the background. I found that small leaved stem plants like rotala indica, are very time consuming to manage since they require frequent pruning. As well, since the lower leaves tend to get shed off/melt away, you ideally need to cut off the lower stems, and replant the upper portion of the plant back into the substrate for aesthetics. I also decided to gather my Blyxa japonica into a few large clumps. I think that it looks better than my previous uniform row of Blyxa that I had in the front.

Eventually, I'd like to find a large piece of driftwood that looks like a tree trunk, to replace my existing clump of driftwood. I'd put it in the back corner on the left hand side. The difficulty is finding a piece of driftwood that large.

My six discus juvenilles are beginning to come out a lot more now. They're little piggies when it comes to their blood worms. I'm feeding them 6 frozen cubes of blood worms a day. It's going to be quite expensive at this rate. Hopefully I can get them to take some dry discus food...

Here's a pic of the tank today:


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## Brian

If you feed them 6 cubes of bloodworms a day, they won't eat anything else... You might need to starve them a bit and then give them the dry food, you've spoiled them too much now and bloodworms only isn't a good diet.


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## Plant Crazy

Well, my discus have really ramped up their appetites and I'm feeding them at least 3 times per day now. 

Thanks to the increased bioload in my tank, and increased feedings, the thread algae  in my tank has really started to grow. I'm monitoring my macro levels almost daily, and they have been pretty decent: nitrates usually run about 6-8 ppm, phosphates about 1 ppm. My pH stays at ~6.6, and corresponds to about 30 ppm (based on the 'New CO2 chart'). Water temp is about 29.5C at night, and 30.4 during the day (I've got a digital water temp probe). I'm doing a 50% water change approx. every 5 days.

I just received my SMS 122 pH controller today, which I'm using in conjunction with an Aqua Medic solenoid. The pH probe for the controller calibrated very easily (used pH 7.0 and pH 4.0 calibration buffers). I've set the controller to 'turn on' CO2 when the pH rises above 6.6.

In terms of the thread algae, I pulled out what was easily accessible. Then I started with the Flourish Excel overdose method. I started today with 20 mL (for 70 gallons), and the tank inhabitants (6 cories, 6 discus, 3 minnows and snails) are all doing fine. I plan on continuing on with this dose for the next 10 to 14 days. I've used this ratio of overdose (~3 fold) previously in my 30g planted tank with clown loaches, SAE, minnows, shrimp, snails, and this worked well to eradicate different types of algae.

I'll update you with the results shortly.


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## holocron

ah man, thread algae is such a beeech. I had it in my tank for a while to and still have some small reminants, but for the most part its totally gone now. What made it go away was upping my CO2. That might prove fairly difficult since your water temp is so high. I hope the excel works out for you! 

keep us posted.


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## Plant Crazy

Well, I'm on day two of my *Flourish Excel overdose *(21 mL for 70g, so 3 fold overdose). The discus, minnows, cories and snails don't seem to mind a bit. The discus are still eating like little piggies, and are very active.

Two observations with the Excel overdose:
1- Some of the thread algae looks a little less green today (perhaps it's reacting to the Excel). As well, there doesn't look there's been any significant growth of new thread algae.
2- Overall, the plants look 'healthier' (e.g., the sunset hygro has lots of new growth, the blyxa japonica leaves are greener).

It's only been two days, so it's still early going yet. I'm planning to overdose for 10 to 14 days (this is the duration that worked well for me in the past on my 30g planted tank).

My water parameters are still decent: nitrates 6-7 ppm, phosphate 1.2 ppm, pH 6.7. Still dosing daily with PMDD (*without KNO3*, since the bioload produces enough nitrates) and KH2PO4 if necessary to keep phosphates between 1 and 1.5 ppm.

I'll update you with the results of my Excel overdosing in a few days.


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## Ciddian

It looked wonderful when i saw it stan!! Even one of the discus came sneaking out which was a pleasure to see. The bf was really pleased to see them.


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## ranmasatome

I see a jungle brewing in this one PC..i mean that as a good thing..
Keep up the good work! algae leave us be!!


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## Plant Crazy

Well, I'm on day 3 of the Excel overdose. 

Excel overdosing (3-fold) combined with manual removal of thread algae affected plant leaves seems to be working really well.The plants are thriving, and the existing thread algae doesn't seem to be growing (just barely surviving). At this rate, there should be very little (if any) thread algae left at the end of this week!

My discus and other tank inhabitants have tolerated the treatment as well. In fact, the discus are not even hiding any longer, and they're swimming in the open now. They also don't seem to dart away when they see movement in their peripheral vision. As an added bonus, they're freely eating the food out of my hand.


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## Ciddian

excellent to hear!!


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## holocron

very very exciting Stan! I think when I was double dosing I had other issues in my tank that made it a near impossibility (that being a large lack of oxygen).


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## Plant Crazy

Okay, so there seems to be a bit of thread algae growth today!  I'm starting to wonder if thread algae is resistant to Flourish Excel overdosing. Or perhaps, you need a higher dose to treat it. I'm currently dosing at 3-fold (21 mL per 70 gallons), so I don't think that I want to push it any higher, eventhough my tank inhabitants are as happy as punch.

Today, I started trying to use hydrogen peroxide spot treatments. I've read that some people have had succeess with it to combat thread algae. (I will continue on with my Flourish Excel supplementation, although at a lower dose (say, 10 mL per day), since my plants seem to really like it).

My plan is to use 2 mL of 3% H2O2 per gallon, as recommended in this article: http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.asp. So that would mean 140 mL of H2O2 for my tank. I've loaded some into a large 60 mL syringe, spot treated leaves that have thread algae on it, and repeated this spot treatment until 140 mL of H2O2 has been injected. I also turned my filters off for 30 min after the treatment.

I'll let you know what happens. The thread algae battle continues...


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## ranmasatome

IF you have sensitive fish.. i would caution you to be very very careful when h202-ing.
How about getting some amano shrimp.. 10-20 of them will work that tank clean of any thread or hair algae in a matter of days..
however, i do realise this is about finding the balance of the tank..


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## Plant Crazy

Hi ranmastaome, thanks for the warning. I would like to get some Amano shrimp, however they're about $2-3 a piece, and apparently they make nice appetizers for the discus.  I was thinking about getting some SAE, however they can be quite active swimmers and I thought that they might stress out my discus?

As of this morning, all the inhabitants are still happy and don't show any signs of stress from last night's treatment of H2O2. I didn't do a post-water change. I'm going to repeat the H2O2 (140 mL) treatment again, after I return home from work. Apparently I should start seeing some improvement in the thread algae within a day or two (ie., probably by tomorrow).

I'll update with the results.


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## holocron

Hey Stan,

I had a pretty bad breakout of thread algae over christmas, and I went through a lot of different things to try and rid myself of it. Unfortunately nothing worked because I would remove maybe 95% of the thread algae (died off and phyically removed) but some always remained. The source of the problem I have been discovering is the tank balance, mine was totally off. I wasn't giving proper and steady CO2, the ferts were way up (high high No3, but low low potassium). As I brought my tank back into balance I see the plants flourishing and the thread algae subsiding because it can't compete. 

So through bringing proper balance I am almost thread algae free now, with no treatments.


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## ranmasatome

Stan... get the monster size yamatoes if you can find them.. they escape the discus quite well.. but if not i understand where you're coming from.
I would say no.. to the SAE if you're planning on moss-ing the tank anytime soon.. They work well when they are small but after sometime they get used to the fish feed and stop eating the algae and eat the fish food and the fresh fronds of the moss..


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## Plant Crazy

Well, I'm about to dose some H2O2 again tonight. My first dose last night might have had an effect on the thread algae (no apparent growth spurt today), although it's still pretty early. The discus and other inhabitants are healthy and happy as ever... discus are coming to the front of the tank when they see me, the little piggies.

I believe that two key factors are at play: *extreme lighting and heavy feeds*. My lighting is very intense(I've got TWO 150W metal halide lights), and is more ideally suited for a reef tank I suppose. I knew that having this very intense lighting setup would make things challenging. As well, I'm feeding my discus fairly heavy, and this can create an environment with surplus nutrients in the water, potentially favouring algae outbreaks. I've been monitoring my nitrate and phosphate daily, and they've been reasonable (nitrates 6-8 ppm, phosphate ~1 ppm). I haven't meausred my chelated iron, although it might be worth checking.

To be fair, the thread algae really isn't that bad... you have to look quite hard to see it. But I'm pretty picky when it comes to algae. I like keeping a tank in which algae is almost 'non-existant'. A lofty goal I realize, but that's what makes it a challenge. 

Here are some pics from today: (you'll have to excuse the hardware, which isn't quite hidden by the plants yet). Kind of an ugly aquascape, but I don't think the discus seem to mind. Eventually, I'll focus more on the aquascaping.

My tank:









My six discus:


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## Plant Crazy

Well, after two daily doses of 3% H2O2 (140 mL per 70gallons), the thread algae is essentially gone. Any thread remanants appear whitish and contracted. The plants are fine and flourishing. The discus, cories and minnows are also well and active (the discus being hungry as always.  ). The only casualties appear to be my nerite snails. 

If the thread algae rears its ugly head in the future again, I'll try using the 3% H2O2 at half the dose (70 mL per 70 gallons).

*In conclusion, thread algae can be destroyed by 3% H2O2 spot treated/dosed at 2 mL per gallon. However, snails will be harmed/killed by this dose of H2O2. Flourish Excel at triple overdose (i.e., 3 mL per 10 gallon) is not effective at destroying thread algae (at least in my experience).*


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## holocron

Interested to see if the algae is destroyed for good. I certainly hope so. Keep us updated!

Those are great photos Stan, nice little guys!


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## Plant Crazy

Yeah, I guess 'eradiacated' or 'destroyed' is probably too definitive sounding. We'll see in a few days if it continues to grow again...
I'll check my chelated iron today or tomorrow to see if my traces are out of whack, and potentially a source of my thread algae problem.


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## holocron

I have read the same thing Stan... that excess iron promotes thread algae. I'd be interested to hear your results.


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## Brian

Not to offend you or anything but those discus look kinda stunted.


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## Plant Crazy

No offense taken. I was actually a bit concerned about this, and posted a thread on simplydiscus. It seems that it's still to early to tell. However, suggestions were made to try daily 50% water changes and to broaden their diet (you'd made this suggestion awhile back as well). With my busy schedule, I've been able to do 50% water changes every 4 to 5 days. It'd be impossible for me to do water changes more frequently than that.  Maybe one day I can install an automatic water change system (to change 5-10% of the water per day).... wishful thinking.

Currently, they're being fed Hikari bloodworms, and they eat this stuff like crazy. However, I'm going to try feeding them Hikari discus bits or Tetra bits in the morning. It'll be interesting to see if they take them or not. Given that the Flourite substrate is very similar in colour to the dry food, it'll be difficult to tell whether or not they've eaten the dry food or not. Should I be presoaking the dry food?


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## Brian

No, don't presoak anything.

When you first feed them, they won't be eating whatever it is you are giving. Starve them for a day or two, don't feed them any bloodworms until they readily take the colourbits or nls, w/e you are trying to feed.

If you can't tell whether or not they have eaten the food off the gravel, than watch to see if they eat the food while it is falling down. If you starve them for 1-2 days and feed them, they will eat the food before it hits the tank bottom.

Remember to not feed them bloodworms until they have taken the dried stuff, you've already got them hooked on it and it is the least nutritious thing you can feed them, besides nothing or expired food.


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## Plant Crazy

holocron said:


> I have read the same thing Stan... that excess iron promotes thread algae. I'd be interested to hear your results.


I used my Hagen iron test kit. The chelated iron was undetectable after a 50% water change. I then dosed 8 mL of my PMDD into my tank, then 5 min later, rechecked the chelated iron level and it was barely detectable. I added 16 mL more of my PMDD, and the chelated iron level was still barely detectable. I wasn't interested in adding anymore PMDD, since I had a feeling that I had already added a sufficient amount. I know that my iron test kit was working, since when I add a drop of PMDD directly to the test tube, it turns blue (chelated iron present). However, I question the sensitivity of the test at the lower ranges (e.g., 0.1 ppm) that we're interested in.

I've read many times that iron test kits can be notoriously inaccurate. For now, I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that chelated iron is not in excess. I'll use visual cues for iron deficiency (Leaves grow in pale or yellow, Greenish nerves enclosing yellow leaf tissue, First seen in fast growing plants), as per Chuck Gadd's page.


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## ranmasatome

No offense..but those test kits are Horribly inaccurate especially for iron and other things like NO3... i never even bother.. save the money for something else.

I dont think excess iron causes anything... reccomended ppm of iron run in the range of 0.2-0.5.... i dose 1.4ppm every 2 days..giving me a total of 5.6ppm weekly.. if thats not excess.. i dont know what is...and i still dont have a problem with thread.

moreover.. this is a direct quote from Tom Barrs E.I method below..
"PO4 and Fe are two nutrients that are difficult to assess without first assessing the other nutrients. If the NO3, K, and CO2 are in good shape, you can add a fair amount of these within a wide range. I have added to almost 3ppm of PO4 consistently week after week. Plant's response is incredible. 
Green spot algae has never been an issue when high PO4 levels are maintained even under high light with Anubias. Adding traces has been a focus for me lately. Many have stuck with the old standby of a residual of 0.1ppm of iron(namelt from the work done developing PMDD). Well what does this residual tell us? Does it tell us what is available to the plants? Is this enough? Do higher doses cause algae? 
I can tell from my own experiences that high levels of traces (Fe) have in no way contributed to any algae presence. I double checked the other nutrients before drawing a conclusion. Few hobbyists and it seems no aquarium companies bothered to look at it from this controlled perspective. In order for the aquarist to draw a conclusion about a nutrient, it must be isolated and you must test only for the dependent variable."

i think its more likely co2.. if not one of the macros..


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## Plant Crazy

Thanks for the replies.

Brian: I'll try feeding them the dry food (not presoaked).

Ranmasatome: thanks for forwarding Barr's quote. When I first started in planted tanks, I was dosing exclusively with Flourish products. And when I got my Fe levels to 0.1 ppm (using Hagen iron test kit) with Flourish Iron, I got a BBA bloom. But I agree, it seems that many people can dose large amounts of iron rather indiscriminantly, and never run into problems.

I agree that CO2 or macros (potassium perhaps?) could be the problem. I've increased my CO2 rate from 1 bubble/sec to 2.5 bubble/sec, and have set my pH controller to maintain a pH of 6.5. I'm also increasing the amount of PMDD (without nitrate) that I'm dosing, since perhaps the potassium, or trace elements could be deficient. I don't need to dose KNO3, since the discus/food keep my nitrates at about 6-7 ppm.

I also do not plan on dosing H2O2 again, unless the thread algae clearly starts coming back again.

We'll see what happens.


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## ranmasatome

try to keep your nitrates 10ppm and above daily... running it so close to the baseline is dangerously asking for more algae trouble in a co2 tank.
Mine runs at 40ppm weekly.. so no worries if you go over the reccomended conc...just if you go under.


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## Plant Crazy

Very good point, ranmasatome. Given the potential inaccuracies of test kits, it's probably safer to have my nitrates running a bit higher. I'm going to aim for 15 ppm and we'll see how things go.

As well, with my pH controller keeping the pH of my tank at ~6.6, 24h per day, the plants will be going through the macros even quicker. Previously, without a controller, my nightime pH would be 6.6, but by the early afternoon, the pH would climb to 6.8.

As an update for the trial of H2O2 for green thread algae:

Well, it's now approximately 4 days since I dosed H2O2 (2 mL per gallon x 2 days), and the thread algae is definitely GONE. I don't see any of it at all. The discus and other inhabitants are fine, and don't seem to have been harmed. The discus still have great appetites. Interestingly, there's now some green spot algae appearing on my tank glass. Well, at least green spot algae I can deal with easily (increase phosphates)...


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## holocron

Hey Stan,

Interested to know how your battle went? is all your thread algae gone?


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## Plant Crazy

*green thread algae update... potassium deficiency??*

Sorry that I haven't updated things in a bit... we're in the process of buying a house, so it's a bit of a distraction. 

Anyhow, after my green thread algae disappeared, there was appearance of blue green algae (NOT green spot algae as I had previously thought). The BGA was pretty nasty stuff, and coated my aquarium glass and some plant leaves in a slimy dark green sheet. Even if I scraped it off and immediately performed a 50% water change, it'd be back on the glass by the next day. As many of you know, BGA is actually a cyanobacteria, and not an algae. My guess is that the H2O2 treatment altered the population of various bacteria species in my tank, and this favoured BGA growth. Perhaps I used too much H2O2; as I mentioned previously, I'd recommend using 1 mL of 3% H2O2/gal instead of 2 mL / gal. I dosed some erythromycin (100mg per 10g), 2 days ago, then made another dose today. The BGA seems to be under control so far (hasn't returned on the glass as of yet).

However, now *the green thread algae has started to come back again! * So, I'm trying to figure out the underlying reason for this. The difficulty with my setup is that it has high light (two 150 MW halides) and a high nutrient load (lots of food for the discus). My nitrates and phosphates have been within the normal ranges (10-15 ppm nitrates, 1-1.5 ppm phosphate). My CO2 is on a pH controller, and maintains it at 30-40 ppm (pH 6.4). Excess nutrients might be an issue. I've now started using my feeding cone to put the frozen bloodworms in. This seems to be much cleaner, since the uneaten bloodworms don't end up polluting the gravel.

However, I still feel that there is a *nutrient deficiency* problem in my tank, which is causing green thread algae growth. I always assumed that my potassium would be at a sufficient level (when you add KNO3 and KH2PO4, you're adding K, and there's also K2SO4 in my PMDD), however due to the high nutrient load in my tank, I realize that I haven't had to add as much nitrate and phosphate lately, and thus, haven't been supplementing much potassium (K) as a result. Given the high lighting and CO2, I wouldn't be surprised if my plants are going through my potassium quickly. There is an interesting thread on plantedtank.net, where a senior member is having difficulty with green thread algae as well, and believes that potassium deficiency might be a cause: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/30518-anyone-actually-beat-established-thread-algae.html?highlight=green+thread+algae

*I'm going to start dosing extra potassium. *I'm assuming that the potassium in my tank is 0 ppm, and according to Chuck Gadd's calculator, this means that I need to add two teaspoons of K2SO4 to obtain ~20 ppm potassium. We'll see what happens...

Another contributing factor might have been *excess traces*. I've been supplementing traces daily, and in a setting of a potassium deficiency, this would also favour the growth of algae (such as green thread).

Here's some pics from today (one of the entire tank), and the other two at feeding time:


























My juvenilles are growing well, with the exception of one of the orange ones (see in the pics on the far left).


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## holocron

Great update Stan. 

I am in such a similar scenario. I had thread algae really badly over xmas, and I for the most part got rid of it through getting back on my dosing and having consistent co2, but its not 100% gone. 

I have the same dilemma with a planted discus tank, keeping NO3 low (so EI becomes fairly unacceptable) and keeping the feedings up. I am currently adding large amounts of trace and K2SO4 to get my K up to a level that the rest (N, P and trace) are running at. I have been dosing like this for almost a week, and I'll let you know if I see any progress.

FYI, I had some xmas on wood like you had in your tank, but it was totally over-run with thread algae I was going to toss it. I put it in my 12g tank and the shrimp ate every ounce of thread algae off the moss it blew my mind. I think I have the cleanest moss in the city  Shrimp do an amazing job. Try tossing in a dozen amanos, it might help. NOTE: I had a serious problem with amanos and my tank temperature... if your tank is over 27C best not add amanos, they will just die.

BTW, Amazing photos!! So sharp, would love to know what you use.

good luck with the house.


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## Plant Crazy

Yep, the planted discus tank is an interesting challenge... the discus like low nitrates, and the plants want higher nitrates... the discus like lots of food, but excess food means extra ammonia, and a higher chance of algae. But the goal of achieving a tank of healthy discus in an flourishing, 'algae-free' planted tank, is well worth the challenge.

I'm really wondering if *potassium-limitation* has been the source of my algae problems. Due to the generous feedings (which ultimately increase nitrate and phosphate), I haven't had to supplement much in the way of nitrate or phosphate, and have only really been supplementing traces. I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly), that if my nitrate and phosphates were okay, then the potassium would also be sufficient. *But, what if the feedings only largely increase the nitrate and phosphates, and only marginally increase the potassium? * This would definitely lead to a potassium-deficient situation.

So, with K2SO4 (potassium) supplementation, I should see the thread algae begin to retreat as the plants outcompete for macro and micros. We'll soon see...

On an aside: Holocron, how is your pressurized CO2 system working out for you? Do you miss not having to mix up yeast mixtures? 

My pics are taken with a Canon 20D camera using a Canon EF 50 mm/1.4 lens. They're just snapshots (no special setup, no flash). My wife is a much better photographer (pro)... just have to convince her to start taking some pics for me.


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## ranmasatome

Stan its looking good from teh pictures..
Sorry i coulnd't read through throughly.. i'm in the process of some restoration currently so i'll have to read this post later.. but nice pics..


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## Plant Crazy

Well, here's a long overdue update:

1. Blue green algae (BGA): after two doses of erythromycin (100 mg/10gallon), two days apart, the BGA has entirely disappeared. I monitored my ammonia and nitrite level during this time, and I'm happy to say that at this dose of erythromycin, my biological filter was unharmed.

2. Thread algae: as you know, it returned a couple of weeks after I had treated with H2O2 (peroxide). However, with the potassium supplementation that I've been doing (about 1 tspn K2SO4 every other day to 70gallon), my plants have been looking even healthier (greener, bushier), and the thread algae, although present, is not growing in as quickly. I'm manually removing the thread algae every two days or so, and I have a feeling that if I continue on with my potassium supplementation, that the plants will soon outcompete the thread algae. I've also been dosing a lot less trace (previously using 7 mL every day, now using 3mL every other day).

I'll post some pics in the next few days.


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## ranmasatome

Stan.. just read the thread.. BGA is more commonly than not, a NO3 issue..
i would raise the amount of No3 you dose by at least 2times...assuming 15ppm like mentioned. Some of the plants you have in there are No3 sponges and with 150watts MH AND co2.. i can almost be sure tehy are sucking it up like a fat kid and his M&Ms.
Besides increasing dosage of Kno3 would increase your K dosage as well.. so you can stop dosing k2so4(who needs to remember to dose another nutrient??)..AND its solves your BGA problem..AND you wont be short on K.. hows that.. 3 birds with one stone..
For all you know.. the thread may just disappear..
but most importantly of all...they dont come back..
No use treating something and then it disappears for 2 weeks then comes back next month..


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## Plant Crazy

*Big update!*

Sorry about the lack of updates for the past month. I've been very busy with work and we've finally sold our house (on the market for 4 weeks), and we'll be moving (still in Toronto) in a month and a half. Yep, the fun of having to temporarily drain, disassemble, move and setup the tank again...

Anyways, I had originally setup my 70g with metal halide lights (two x 150W). However, I have a feeling that the lighting was too intense, and was partly a cause of my algae problems (green thread). The other issue has been that I'm running a discus planted tank, and I've been feeding the discus pretty heavily. This creates a lot of waste, which as you know, can be a real trigger for algae growth. From my previous experiences with planted tanks, I've found that low bioload tanks (i.e., lots of plants, very few fish, and small feedings) have been very easy to maintain algae free.

Well, I've decided to put away my metal halide lights for now, and I purchased a Coralife 2x96W PC fixture (6,700K lights). I've had success with PC or T5 lighting in the past. I have no complaints with this dual fixture; two fans, and independently controlled lights. The plants look more vibrant than under my metal halides (i.e., the plants look greener now). As well, the discus seem to be more comfortable with the light, and they're venturing out a lot more now.

Anyhow, here's a pic of the tank right now. I stopped by at Menagerie today and picked up some more Cyperus hefferi as well as a nice Red Ozelot sword. There's still a fair bit of green thread algae around. We'll see how things go with the new lights, and I'll try to increase my water changes if I have spare time to do so.


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## ranmasatome

Hey!! its looks pretty lush now eh..?


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## Plant Crazy

ranmasatome said:


> Hey!! its looks pretty lush now eh..?


Hey ranmasatome, great to chat again. Yeah, I gave up with the potassium supplementation, since it didn't make much of a difference of promoting plant growth over algae growth (i.e., don't think that there was a potassium deficiency to begin with)... live and learn. Anyways, I may end up only supplementing with phosphate and trace, since the heavy feeding (and relatively high bioload: 5 discus) keeps my nitrate pretty maxed out.

Look forward to seeing more pics of your awesome creations, ranmasatome.


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## Ciddian

WOW..... Crazy, you are right, it looks a lot greener now and fuller... Very Nice


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## Thistle

Looks like more then enough for a few salads.


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## ranmasatome

my creations?? hhaha.. been pretty busy lately with preparation for a move... so haven't really been meddling with my tanks. You on the other hand, seem to be doing a good job...
I'll see what the tanks look like now.. probably post something later..


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## holocron

Hey Stan, it's been a while! Looks like you have been a busy man. Congrats on selling the house, I could only imagine that being a huge task. Now comes the really fun part... moving! 

Your tank is looking nice and lush, very green. So you packed away those halids eh? I am going through the exact same issues as you in my tank... I also shortened my photo period (I have the same light 96x2) a lot. Before it was 13 hours with about 45 mins on each side with one bulb. I cut back to roughly 11hours with a longer 'morning' and 'evening' period. I also tossed in about 15 amano shrimp to see what they would do to the algae. So far they have done nothing. I am guessing there is just so much other tastey stuff to eat they don't get around to the thread algae. Hoping the photo period issues will help. If I don't see a change in a month or so, I am going to 'reboot' my tank.. go bare bottom for the rest of the summer and either bleach my substrate or get new eco complete. We'll see.

Glad to see you post! I was wondering what you were up to.


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## Plant Crazy

Yep, packed away my expensive metal halides... I love them, but I guess, they're still best suited for a reef tank.

In terms of amano shrimp, I absolutely agree with you. They don't make a darn dent in my green thread algae. They look nice, but don't do anything... great ornaments.  

So far, the green thread algae doesn't seem to be growing in as quickly as it did under the metal halide lighting. I'm trying to remove as much of it as I can every other day or so, and hope that the plants will out-compete the algae given the new lighting. I've also started overdosing my Excel (2 fold)... anything to give the plants an advantage over the nasty algae.


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## jrs

I still have a little bit of thread algea in with my dwarf hairgrass. It is only tiny pieces here and there and it does not spread to the rest of the tank. The only thing that seems to keep it in check for me is the excel.

I HATE THAT ^#%$# ALGEA! It seems impossible to get rid of completely.


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## ranmasatome

I usually only use amano shrimps at the start.. dump a bunch in and then just let them starve.. they'll get to the algae in 3days.. in a week its all gone.. but then thats not really addressing the issue..
So.. better to deal with the issue at the root then find means and ways to get rid of it from sight only.


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## Plant Crazy

Unfortunately the amanos are still a bit pricey ($2.00 or so each), and I figure that if I starve my shrimp, it also means starving my discus as well, and then the shrimp may turn into tasty sushi treats for the discus.  

I'm wondering whether the excess nitrates etc, from the heavy feedings are the source of the green thread algaeproblems. What I ideally need is an automatic water change system (where the tank is directly plumbed into a water supply)... just don't have enough time to do enough water changes.


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## Plant Crazy

*New pics and update*

Well, with the new lights (2x96W PCs, 6700K), I have to say that the green thread algae is not growing nearly as quickly as it was under my metal halides. I'm wondering if this is because the metal halides were too bright, or if the CRI of the halides was too high (10,000K). Regardless, the algae is much more controllable now; I'm not having to remove handfulls of the stuff from my tank every 2-3 days! As an aside, I'm really loving the look of the 6,700K bulbs... they're making the plants look extra vibrant and green, and bring out the discus colours nicely.

As of two days ago, I've started a Flourish Excel overdose (3 fold) regime. Previously, I've tried an Excel overdose (2 fold) for a week in an attempt to eliminate the green thread algae, but it didn't have any effect. I've also read that others have noted minimal success with green thread algae elimination via Excel overdose. However, yhis time, I'm going to go up to 3-fold overdose (21 mL for 70 gallons), and use it on a daily basis over a period of 3-4 weeks. So far, the discus and other fish (cory cats, white cloud minnows) don't seem to mind the overdose. Even if Excel doesn't directly act as an algaecide for green thread algae, it'll still help give the upper hand to the plants by providing them another readily available carbon source.

Here's a pic of the tank taken today, as well as three pics of the discus.


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## Zebrapl3co

Hi Stan,
Hmm where to I start ...
1) let me know if you are planning to part with your MH.
2) I don't think any amount of Excel will fix your problem. Namely, I don't think you have green thread Algae but rather an algae ball algae problem. It's just a suspicion as I have been fighting the same problem every since I got my hands on a algae ball. Never mind 3x, I tried 5x and only then did they start to die, but then again, so did my X-mas moss too ...

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## ranmasatome

you know.. that last sentence is flawed..
if you're using pressurised co2.. excel wont be a secondary carbon source and it wont give them an upper hand.


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## Plant Crazy

Well, here's a pic of the tank five or six days after the Excel 2.5X overdose (21 mL in 70 gallon). Nitrate ~8 ppm, Phosphate ~0.8 ppm. I also added a few other plants I purchased from Menagerie.

The green thread algae is still there, but it has grown at a minimal rate. I've taken this pic after a 50% water change today, and a moderate trimming of some plants and manual removal of leaves with green thread algae.

I'm planning to continue onwards with the Excel 2.5X overdose for a few weeks and see how things go. As well, I hope that the presence of enough fast growers in the tank will also help in inhibiting growth of the green thread.










Zebrapl3co: I may be planning on parting with my MH, since I don't think that I'd ever go back to using it for planted tanks. As well, I can't imagine starting a saltwater tank anytime soon. If you're interested in them, let me know.

Ran: In terms of the last statement in my previous post, I should qualify it further. According to Seachem, Flourish Excel provides a carbon intermediate, polycycloglutaracetal, which can be utilized directly by plants. I guess the question is whether Flourish Excel provides additional benefit for plants, when used with CO2. Seachem hints that this is the case: "The use of either CO2 injection or Flourish Excel™ does not necessarily negate the use of the other. Because the processes of producing photosynthetic intermediates and building onto them occur simultaneously, one can derive a substantial benefit with the use of Flourish Excel™ either alone or in conjunction with CO2." However, Seachem doesn't provide any data or references supporting this, so this could all be a marketing ploy.


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## Plant Crazy

Well it's been 15 days since I began the Excel overdose (3x), and the green thread algae is still there. In fact, it continues to grow, although at a slow rate. I'm going to continue the overdose for another two weeks, although I'd have to say that given how things have been going, I don't think the overdose will get rid of the green thread algae.

Here's a pic of the tank today.


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## Zebrapl3co

From your picture, your hair algae problem isn't that visible. I'll see if I have the time to take a picture and post mine ...
OH and as for the MH. I guess I wasn't really using my head when I ask for the offer. The price you ask is a pretty good price. I would buy, but I have this $$$ problem that I set on my quotas to spend on fish. And it'll take me a while to come up with the money. Thanks for the offer though.

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## holocron

your tank looks amazing Stan! So lush.

Zebra is right, from the photo you wouldn't guess you had a problem.


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## ranmasatome

I think its like electricity.. if you have 2 wires where current is applied to both..but one has a small resistor on it.. then most(a very big most) will pass through the wire without the resistor... some, like 1% or there abouts will pass through the wire with teh small resistor. Get the analogy?

Plants prefer co2 gas..as far as i've heard.


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## Plant Crazy

Thanks a lot for the comments! The green thread algae isn't visible on a quick glance, but if you stand up close to the aquarium and carefully look at the leaves nearer to the top, you can see it. Next time I do a trimming, I'll see if I can post a close up of the nasty green stuff.

Ran, that's a very interesting analogy. I agree, that the plants would preferentially utilize the CO2, and that the extra carbon intermediates (provided by Excel) would be likely make a minor contribution.

Anyways, I'll be moving the aquarium in about 3 1/2 weeks to the new house... so the next update may be after the move. I'm crossing my fingers that there will be no unexpected difficulties (broken tank, missing fish....).\


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## holocron

Good luck with the move Stan. I recently moved and I have to say a holding tank + a flat dolly save me some serious backache. Also, it was the very last thing I moved. It went flawlessly!

First I filled the holding tank with water from my main tank, then tranfered all the fish to the holding tank. Emptied as much of the rest of the water into buckets and then emptied that tank. I left the gravel in myself. then I prepared the flat dolly with layers of cardboard lifted the tank off the stand (with a friend of course) and placed it on the dolly. Then I just had to wheel the tank around and lift the dolly if nec. instead of lifting the tank (no tank/glass stress). Once at my new place i setup the tank on the stand and put the water from the buckets back in the tank. Went back for the fish+water from the holding tank + filter/heater etc. I immediately put the fish in the main tank and topped it off with fresh water. It turned out to be around a 50% water change so all the fish were hunky dorry.

hope that helps!


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## 66 north

Oh no a move, I just did that too for a 90 gallon discus tank. It took me all day, tearing it down, setting it up again. Moving all the furniture was way faster and easier.


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## Plant Crazy

Thanks for the moving suggestions. The dolly sounds like a great idea. I plan on placing the discus with tank water in a rubbermaid, and moving the tank with gravel and a very small layer of water. I also plan on leaving the plants in the gravel (not worth plucking them out and then replanting them, and it'll probably kick up too much detritus too).

I'll let you know how the move goes.


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## Plant Crazy

*An update!*

Well, it's been about 2 months since the last update. Some things to report:

1. In August, two weeks before the move, for some reason there was too much CO2 in the tank and I lost 4 of my 6 discus.  I decided to give my remaining two discus away (Jrs was the lucky receipient), and to focus on my original passion: planted tanks. As beautiful as discus are, having a planted discus tank is a fair bit of work since the higher temperatures and high bioload (and heavy feedings) push the balance towards favouring algae growth. Having discus in the tank also prevented me from adjusting other critical factors such as increasing CO2, increasing ferts (they don't like high nitrates), etc.

2. The move went very smoothly. I left the plants rooted in the substrate and siphoned some tank water into a large rubbermaid. I removed the remainder of the water, leaving less than an inch in the tank. I then disconnected the hardware. The movers put the tank on a dolly and rolled it to the new house up the street!

3. I replaced my metal halide fixtures with Coralife power compact fluorescent fixtures (total of 3x96W for my 70g).

4. Started dosing according to Tom Barr's Estimative Index, and I've stopped using test kits to monitor my nitrates, and phosphates. I'm currently dosing: 1 tspn KNO3, 1.5 tspn K2SO4, 1/4 tspn KH2PO4, 15 mL trace solution and 15 mL Excel after every weekly 50% water change. And also dose 1 tspn KNO3, 1/8 tspn KH2PO4, 15 mL trace solution and 15 mL Excel every other day. (My trace solution is made by dissolving 1 tblspn of trace mix in 250 mL water, and the macros are dosed dry).

5. Started increasing my CO2 levels (have my pH controller set at 6.2).

With the lighting at ~4 W/gallon, dosing macros and trace in excess (via Estimative Index), and increased CO2, I noticed that the green thread algae was growing slower, however it still wasn't going away.

So, I've started dosing hydrogen peroxide (3% solution) at ~70-90 mL per day. I spot treat areas of green thread algae. After two days, I noticed that the green thread algae has decreased significantly (~10-20% left). I'm continuing on with this daily spot treating of hydrogen peroxide. I'm hoping that spot treating, combined with high lighting, CO2 and EI dosing, will eradicate it.

My fish (white cloud minnows, cory cats) and amano shrimp are completely unaffected by the peroxide treatments. My plants, with the exception of the red lotus, have shown no ill effects. However, I have lost some nerite snails, so in an ideal situation, you should transfer the nerite snails into a separate tank for the duration of hydrogen peroxide treatments.

Here's a shot of the tank today. I know it's a messy jungle... once I have conquered the green thread algae, I'll get around to focusing on aquascaping it nicely. Perhaps ranmasatome will give me some pointers.


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## jrs

Looking better Stan. I would hate to try to catch the discus in the tank now! BTW they are doing very well so far and I will try to post a pic soon.

This may be like rubbing salt in a wound but....I picked up a beautiful book on Dutch planted aquariums and listen to what it says.."Not all algae are harmful. Green thread algae indicates a very healthy aquarium." Go figure that one!


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## Zebrapl3co

It's good to know some one using the EI method. I've been trying to get around to doing it again. But I've just don't have the time anymore.
Did you take this picture after a water change or where all those bubbling the results of pearling?
It looks very healthy. I can barely see the algae.
I am a bit supprised that the amanos shrimps aren't affected by the hydrogen peroxide dosing.

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## Plant Crazy

jrs said:


> Looking better Stan. I would hate to try to catch the discus in the tank now! BTW they are doing very well so far and I will try to post a pic soon.
> 
> This may be like rubbing salt in a wound but....I picked up a beautiful book on Dutch planted aquariums and listen to what it says.."Not all algae are harmful. Green thread algae indicates a very healthy aquarium." Go figure that one!


I'm very picky when it comes to algae... 'the only good algae is a dead algae'.  The reason that I'm trying to get rid of the green thread algae is for aesthetics. You can see it only if you look closely at some of the plant leaves, however I notice it, and it bugs me to no end.


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## Plant Crazy

Zebrapl3co said:


> It's good to know some one using the EI method. I've been trying to get around to doing it again. But I've just don't have the time anymore.
> Did you take this picture after a water change or where all those bubbling the results of pearling?
> It looks very healthy. I can barely see the algae.
> I am a bit supprised that the amanos shrimps aren't affected by the hydrogen peroxide dosing.


Zebrapl3co, the bubbling is from pearling. I get pretty serious pearling within a couple of hours of turning on the lights, and it continues until lights out. However, I have a really low bioload for this tank.

I was also surprised about the amanos not being affected with the H2O2. My guess is that if I push the peroxide a bit more, then I may see some shrimp fatalities. So 1 mL of 3% peroxide per gallon seems to be 'amano-safe' so far.


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## holocron

hey stan! long time no see.

Your tank is looking fantastic. I hear you regarding the CO2 indcident and discus. I am not sure if they breathe heavy or something or perhaps its just their size, but that tends to happen in my tank as well (sometimes wake up to choking discus, even though my co2 is off at night). I have to now run an airstone 24/7 to keep the O2 levels high enough for the discus. 

I have totally backed my tank up to basics, meaning I dropped the co2 and the lighting (down to 1.5wpg) with no ferts and suprisingly that killed every strand of thread algae in my tank. It seems that having a planted discus tank is extremely difficult unless its absolutely huge (200g) so the plants can supply enough o2 for the discus. So, I, like you am debating selling the beautiful discus and keeping a very minimal bio load so I can totally pimp out the plants  

If you want (or if you can) try bringing down your lighting and don't fert / co2 until your thread algae is gone and then start up again with the EI. I found that the EI just made my thread algae worse. Deal with the problem of algae first and then build from there.


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## Plant Crazy

Hey Matt, good to hear from you as well!

Yep, CO2 and discus are a delicate balance as I learned... hence my decision to stay away from discus for now. I felt so bad about the incident... the poor discus, and I can't imagine risk doing that again.

>I have totally backed my tank up to basics, meaning I dropped the co2 and >the lighting (down to 1.5wpg) with no ferts and suprisingly that killed every >strand of thread algae in my tank. It seems that having a planted discus 

That is amazing! How long did it take for the green thread algae to 'die off' after you went back to basics? Did you plants do okay without the ferts? I'm assuming that with the discus in your tank, and the feeds, that the macros were probably I actually found that when I switched to EI dosing and upped my CO2 levels (went from 6.4 to about 6.1), that the green thread algae grew much more slowly. However, it didn't kill it off. If the peroxide treatment doesn't get rid of my green thread algae, I'll try going to basics as per your suggestion.

One interesting observation that I've noted with my peroxide dosing is that after three days, the blue green algae on my glass is dying off at a rapid pace. An unexpected but nice surprise. I'll update with the effect of peroxide on my green thread algae.


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## holocron

You know, it didn't take that long, maybe a couple weeks. The thread algae will never go away if there is a way it can get what it needs. You need to totally starve it and it will vanish. The plants did so so, I took out most of my plants and sold them. I kept the simple stuff like pygmy chain swords and crypts (lo tech stuff). After a few weeks with little Co2 and no micro ferts the thread algae just vanished. I don't have a trace of it in my tank. I DO have lots of lovely algae that you would associate with a low tech tank though (brown, spot and some black beard), but its all very very manageable. 

Once I decide what I am going to do, I'll step up the co2 and ferts.

how big were your discus when you had the incident?


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## holocron

i posted a pict of my tank over here:
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6049#post6049


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## Plant Crazy

holocron said:


> how big were your discus when you had the incident?


They were about 5 to 5.5 inches in size. They were growing pretty quickly and quite healthy.

I'd originally had a powerhead with the venturi air attachment in the tank. However, due to the algae, I decided to remove the venturi air attachment, since this was driving off CO2 from the tank. The discus were fine like this for several weeks...

In hind sight, I should've set up the powerhead with venturi air, to turn on when the lights turned off. This would've prevented the CO2 from getting too high during the evening (i.e., plants are not photosynthesizing and utilizing the CO2).


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## Zebrapl3co

I think I remember reading that if you're going to keep large fish like discuss and altum angles in a planted tank, you need either keep it spars or you need to aerate the water at night. Unless ofcourse if you have a wet/dry sump system going. The problem is that when you turn off the light. Some plants still continue to process and they absorb O2 instead of producing it. As a result, even if you turn off your CO2, if your tank is heavily planted, they will compete for O2 with your fish.

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## Plant Crazy

I absolutely agree Zebrapl3co, especially having experienced the discus casualties first hand.

H2O2 peroxide update: so, it's been five days of treatment. Day 1 to 4 using 70 mL of peroxide (1 mL/gallon), and Day 5 using 140 mL of peroxide (2 mL/gallon). The results: no plant or fish casualties, although I may have lost a few nerite snails. The green thread algae is barely hanging on. If I look very closely, I still see a few strands on the occasional plant leaf. An unexpected nice surpise is that the BGA (that was mainly on my aquarium glass) is completely gone from the tank!

My plan is to continue with a few more days of peroxide dosing. I'm hoping that the last few strands of green thread algae will die off.

My Seachem ammonia alert indicator has registered no ammonia so far, so I don't think that my biofilter has been harmed by the peroxide dosing. I'm going to use my test kits to verify this however.

Regardless, I'm hoping that my tank's improved conditions (plenty of ferts and trace via EI dosing, 4 W/gallon light and good CO2 levels) will prevent the green thread algae from gaining a hold again after I finish my peroxide dosing.

I've also added another powerhead to my tank (my old trusty Aquaclear 301) to increase the tank circulation. So I'll have two powerheads (my existing Via Aqua and now my Aquaclear), in addition to the Eheim spraybar, for water circulation. I've read that some types of algae (BBA, green dust?) will grow preferentially in regions of low water flow.


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## Plant Crazy

Well, it's been six straight days now of hydrogen peroxide dosing. For the past two days, I've upped by amount to 140 mL (2 mL/gallon). The fish (white cloud minnows, cory cats) are still fine and show no stress. The plants look as green as ever. I also checked my ammonia levels yesterday with the test kit, and they were undetectable, so the biofilter hasn't been harmed. I've been leaving my filters on during my dosing.

It is now very difficult to find any remaining strands of green thread algae. The vast majority has either melted away, or has turned completely white (i.e., dead). The BGA has also completely disappeared.

I will continue my peroxide dosing for a few more days, and then will stop to see if any algae (green thread or BGA) returns. Hopefully not.

Dosing with hydrogen peroxide has exceeded my expectations so far. It's very cheap, isn't harmful to my fish, plants or biofilter (at 2 mL/gallon), and works pretty quickly against BGA and green thread algae. I can definitely see why some pond people advocate for using hydrogen peroxide in combating algae.

I'll try to post a pic of my tank again in a few days.


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## Ciddian

Stan, what exactly does this stuff look like?

Is it that very fine hair like stuff? Can it be brown or green?
I am having one horrid time with somthing like that taking over my ten gallon tank. Its so tough too.. very hard to save any plants from it once its established as mine is..


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## Plant Crazy

It is very fine, about the thickness of a strand of hair. It is light green, but not brown. It can stick onto about any surface, including the side of glass, filters etc. A real pain in the arse.


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## Plant Crazy

There's still a tiny amount of green thread algae remaining. It's unbelievable how hardy this algae is. On the other hand, the BGA, which disappeared about 3 or 4 days into the peroxide treatment, has not reappeared yet.

Since there's very little algae left, I've decided to decrease my peroxide dosing frequency to every other day. As well, I've read that very high light levels can make algae problems more difficult. So, I've shut off one my lights, and will be running 2x95 watts instead of 3x95 watts (ie., now 2.7 W/gallon instead of 4 W/gallon). I'll see how the green thread algae responds to this.

As well, I've aquascaped things a bit. I've also hidden the CO2 reactor, and tucked the heater into the corner. Unfortunately you can still see the spray bar and heater. A friend mentioned that Hydor makes an inline heater... sounds like a tantalizing possibility to remove clutter from the tank.

Here's a pic of how things look today.


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## Ciddian

Hmmm mine starts out green then goes brown.. How odd algae is.. :3

Great to hear its going away stan! All the plants are just so green ^^


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## Plant Crazy

Well, here's another update.

It's been eleven days since I've completely stopped dosing hydrogen peroxide. Within about 5 days or so, the algae which I previously thought was BGA (blue green algae), started to grow back slowly on the glass, as well as on a few plant leaves. I did some reading on algae types, and now I believe that this algae is actually green dust algae, and not BGA or green spot algae. Anyways, I've read that Tom Barr (a plant guru) believes that you can rid your tank of green dust algae by letting it completely grow over for about 3 weeks or so (and allow it to complete its life cycle to the adult phase/form), then scrape it off and apparently it never returns! 
I've got to wait another 2 weeks before I can scrape the green dust algae off my glass... hopefully it'll be worth the wait, and never return to my tank.

Read more about this green dust algae theory at: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/31234-algae-glass.html?highlight=green+dust+algae

In terms of the green thread algae, there is still very little present. There are a few strands on a few of the leaves, but it really hasn't grown in much. 
I can conclude that hydrogen peroxide dosing (up to 2 mL/gallon) for a week and a half will not eradicate green thread algae, and will not harm your biofilter. However, by maintaining tank parameters at an optimal level (EI dosing regime of ferts, sufficient lighting (2.7 W/gallon) and CO2 (pH 6.8, KH 5.5, CO2 ~25 ppm), and substantial plant biomass, I believe that the green thread algae is not in a favourable environment to proliferate. I did try cranking up my CO2 level (got it to ~pH 6 for a few days), however some of the fish were gasping at the surface in the morning, so I turned it back to pH 6.8.

I added 6 juvenille angel fish to my tank a week ago. They've adapted to the tank and are always begging for food.


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## Zebrapl3co

This is great stuff. Thank you for sharing.

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## Ciddian

-very- interesting read.... I am gunna see what i can do with my Green ten gallon LOL


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## Plant Crazy

Thanks for the comments  

The green dust algae invasion on my glass has grown into a completely opaque green sheet. Certain areas are turning brownish (some people say the brown stuff means that it's slowly dying off).

This stuff makes a tank look real ugly. I've been tempted to scrape it off on several occasions, but I'm determined to wait this out. Apparently if I scrape it off too early (before the three weeks), then the algae zoospores will simply live on and quickly colonize the tank again. I'd be back to square one, with having to scrape the green dust algae off my tank at each weekly water change.

Here's a great quote from 'Hoppy', posted on the plantedtank.net thread I mentioned earlier:

"Green dust algae (GDA) on the glass was determined by Tom Barr to be algae in the zoospore stage, and at that stage they are free swimming and extremely hard to kill. So he tried letting the GDA live out it's life cycle on the glass, without disturbing it, to see if it would go away on its own. It worked. After two to three weeks the GDA has changed to the adult form, changed appearance to a jelly like substance, wrinkled in appearance. If left alone still further it begins to die off and drop off the glass. Once gone it doesn't return."


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## Ciddian

You know what squite interesting... I have the ten, but i was always way too lazy to scrub the back of the tank. That has turned brown but the stuff taking over the front is bright bright green.

I will leave it too and let it get all ugly. Also... I usually had duckweed along the top...but this stuff grew underneath the duckweed and is choking it out. Not that i care... I always have too much duckweed LOL


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## Zebrapl3co

Hi Stan,
Can you take a picture of the green stuff. I am just curious as to what it looks like.
And as a last resort, if it fails, you can always grab some nerite snails from managerie. They do wonders on algaes the grow on glass. Plus it's free labour too ....

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## Plant Crazy

*The nasty green dust algae grow-out expt (Pics!)*

Well here's a pic taken tonight of the green dust algae. The second pic (close-up) shows the brownish areas beginning to form. I've let it grow for 1.5 weeks so far... another 1.5 to 2 more weeks to go at least. I've taken efforts not to disturb the algae, since scraping at it can release zoophores into the water and start the process all over again. I'm going to skip my next two weekly water changes, and only due water top ups to further minimize disruption of the algae. According to Tom Barr and others, it should start dying off and 'falling off' the tank glass by itself.

It sure is an eyesore. I sure hope that this is worth it!

I should mention that if you look into the aquarium itself, there is very little algae. Just a little bit of the green dust algae growing on a few of the leaves of the ozelot sword and E. stellata. The green thread algae is very minimal... seems to have improved on its own.

I will definitely get some nerite snails for my 70g to help things along. I just haven't had the time to pick any up from Menagerie yet. I've got a couple of nerites in my tank currently, however I think they're on strike, since they don't seem to be doing much of a job on the algae.


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## Zebrapl3co

Woah, that is one nasty looking algae ... I hope Tom Barr's method works, because if it didn't, it will be one hell of a job to scrap it off. Thank you.

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## Ciddian

Cant see the photos here at work.. I'll try again at home


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## Plant Crazy

*green dust algae update*

Well, here's a pic of the green dust algae today. It's been exactly two weeks. There are a lot more brownish regions now. I'm hoping to see the algae 'mature' into the adult form, which apparently is dark brown / black and has almost a jelly-like consistency. I'll scrape the algae off at this point and see if it returns.


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## summ3r

wow, that's nasty looking stuff.
keep us updated.


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## Plant Crazy

Well, here's a pic of the tank today, 2 1/2 weeks since I left the green dust algae alone. A large amount of it has turned brown, and in those regions, it's starting to flake off the glass. The second pic shows a close-up of some brown spots.

I added 8 nerite snails to my tank yesterday. I'm hoping that as more of the algae turns brown, the snails will help in removing it. They don't seem to be too fond of the green dust algae (at least when it's green).










Closeup of the algae:


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## Plant Crazy

*It's been 3 weeks...*

As the title says, it's been exactly 3 weeks since I've left the green spot algae alone on the glass. Here's a pic of things today. I guess that you could now call it 'really gross, brownish algae'. The brownish areas are growing larger, and more of it is beginning to fall off.

I was really tempted to scrape it off today, however there are still some 'younger' green areas, so I thought it'd be best to leave it another week. I've waited this long, so I didn't want to risk scraping it too soon, and restarting the cycle.

The nerite snails don't seem to interested in eating this stuff. There are a few snail tracks, but they haven't devoured it like I thought they would.

I came across one of the original threads describing the green dust algae 'grow out' theory, for anyone who's interested in reading more about it:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae-specific-problems/16162-green-dust-algae-odyssey.html










Closeup of the algae showing the brownish areas. You can some areas (circles) where the algae has died and fallen off the glass.


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## Plant Crazy

*Bba!*

Well, I looked carefully within the tank today, and saw a few tufts of BBA (black brush algae) on a few leaves! Now, I've had this stuff in my 20g tank many years ago, and I remember that it disappeared once I switched from yeast CO2 to pressurized CO2. In fact, some plant gurus note that the presence of BBA may mean that your CO2 level is not high enough in your tank.

Anyways, BBA also responds very well to Excel overdose. So, I've decided to begin Excel overdose today (~2.5 times the recommended dosage on the bottle). I turned my power heads and Eheim filter off, spot treated the few affected leaves, then I turned them back on. If all goes well, the BBA should be go within a week to week and a half of Excel overdose. As well, the Excel overdose may also help with the green dust algae. We'll soon see.


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## Pablo

Dude... get a razorblade or credit card and get that junk off the glass. ten minutes...


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## Pablo

Plant Crazy said:


> Well, I looked carefully within the tank today, and saw a few tufts of BBA (black brush algae) on a few leaves! Now, I've had this stuff in my 20g tank many years ago, and I remember that it disappeared once I switched from yeast CO2 to pressurized CO2. In fact, some plant gurus note that the presence of BBA may mean that your CO2 level is not high enough in your tank.
> 
> Anyways, BBA also responds very well to Excel overdose. So, I've decided to begin Excel overdose today (~2.5 times the recommended dosage on the bottle). I turned my power heads and Eheim filter off, spot treated the few affected leaves, then I turned them back on. If all goes well, the BBA should be go within a week to week and a half of Excel overdose. As well, the Excel overdose may also help with the green dust algae. We'll soon see.


Watch that excel. Toxic to inverts and many small fishes in overdose.

I suggest the credit card route, and just remove the affected plant leaves with cyno on them


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## Plant Crazy

Hey Pablo, I'd love to scrape it off, but the only reason that I'm waiting is that if you scrape off the 'younger' regions, you restart the whole life cycle for green dust algae all over again. Then it's another 3-4 week wait.  

I may scrape the front of the glass in a week or so, which may restart the cycle (ie., green dust reappears on the glass in 2 or 3 days again). However, people have said that it comes in less and less each time.


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## Plant Crazy

*Scraped it off!*

Pablo, you'll be glad to hear that I finally broke down and scraped off the green dust algae. Couldn't stand looking at it anymore. I hadn't been able to see my plants for the past few weeks.

Anyways, I have no doubt that the stuff will return to coat the glass again. I can imagine the zoophores are busy recolonizing the glass. However, the question will be whether or not they'll coat it as thick or extensively this time. If I repeat the process (let it grow for 3 weeks) a few times, maybe it'll go away. Only time will tell.

Here's a pic of the tank today. A few leaves have green spot algae on them, and a bit of BBA. I'm going to continue dosing Excel (2-3X dose) in an attempt to quash the BBA.

Overall, plant growth has been pretty impressive. Had to hack away some of my e. stellata, which had become gigantic.


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## Plant Crazy

I've been overdosing Flourish Excel for the past week to keep the BBA (black brush algae) away, which had appeared during my green dust algae growout period. The BBA is turning purplish, and hasn't proliferated. I'm going to continue overdosing Excel until it completely dies off.

The fish (angel fish, cories, white cloud minnows) and plants haven't exhibited any adverse effects. There is one exception however...
Kwonger was kind enough to get me some beautiful pellia, which I put in my tank a few days back. It melted away. I believe that it's a result of the Flourish Excel overdosing. Pellia (Monosolenium tenerum) is a liverwort, and looks like a big version of Riccia Fluitans. Riccia is also known to suffer greatly from Excel in overdose. So, not suprisingly, Pellia suffers the same fate...

There still is a very small amount of green thread algae on a few leaves. Hard to notice unless you really look for it.

I noticed today that there is a small amount of green dust algae on my aquarium glass! So, obviously the grow out period didn't clear it. However, some people have said that you have to do this grow out several times. As well, it is supposed to grow in less and less with each grow out. So, I'm going to let it grow and see if it gets as nasty as it did previously (see my previous posts for pics).


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## Plant Crazy

Did a trimming in my tank, and this is how things look today. The green spot algae grows on the glass VERY slowly now. Very little is present on the front glass, with a little more on the left hand side glass. Previously, the green spot algae would return within 3 or 4 days after a waterchange. But now, it takes about 8 or 9 days. I only have to scrape it with every other water change.

So, perhaps the grow out of the green spot algae did help. However, I am also fertilizing less than previously (i.e., 1/2 tspn of KNO3 instead of 1 tspn KNO3, 8 mL trace instead of 10 mL), the front light has been pushed back a bit, and I'm using Flourish excel 15 mL every other day with my ferts. Too many variables to say that the grow out definitely was solely responsible for drastically slowing the green spot algae growth.









The BBA has essentially disappeared. This type of algae has consistently responded to Flourish Excel overdose from my experience, and this time was no different, thankfully.

I would love to replace my heater with a Hydor in-line heater (to remove some of the clutter). It'd also be nice to get rid of the outflow spray bar from my Eheim, but I believe the extra flow improves plant growth. Too bad Eheim doesn't make their spray bars out of colourless plastic, instead of green!


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