# My Koi Angelfish Breeding Setup



## DZinck (Aug 18, 2010)

UPDATE: Saturday December 11th at around 5pm my angels started laying eggs. I need to hold my iphone against the glass to get even a relatively good picture so will take some pictures when they're done laying. 

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I could use some advice from anyone with angelfish breeding experience. So far I haven't gotten any fry past a couple days in the free swimming stage.

They typically lay on the leaves of the large plant in the middle of the aquarium, raise the fry to free swimming stage, and then I'll come home and there won't be any fry anymore. I tried putting them in a floating fry shelter I once used for livebearers, however they died around the same time. For food I gave them a small amount of nutrafin max baby fish formula (considering the switch to live food).

My next plan is the partition off a small part of the 21 gal planted tank I have dedicated to the angels and simple move the fry over using a shrimp net, hopefully they find the food I drop in or get enough nutrition from the plants etc.

Anybody know why they aren't making it? Do I need to give them more a couple more spawns before they'll totally figure it out?

I attached pictures from my iphone. I scraped the glass before a 2nd batch of pictures I took today (fish were freaked out so I didnt get good shots). I even found a picture of the fry.


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

Hello; How old are the pair? Is there any other fish in the tank? Do you turn the lights off at night? The floating trap you talk about, I've seen babies get sucked through it, baby Angels need to be fed very small food such as micro worms and not before the third or fourth day of free swimming. Sometimes with aquarium raised Angels they need five or six, possibly more spawns to get the hang of raising fry be patient I have a pair on thier six spawn and it looks like I may have 12 fry on this the seventh day of free swimming.
Good luck and hang in there.


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## DZinck (Aug 18, 2010)

bob123 said:


> Hello; How old are the pair? Is there any other fish in the tank? Do you turn the lights off at night? The floating trap you talk about, I've seen babies get sucked through it, baby Angels need to be fed very small food such as micro worms and not before the third or fourth day of free swimming. Sometimes with aquarium raised Angels they need five or six, possibly more spawns to get the hang of raising fry be patient I have a pair on thier six spawn and it looks like I may have 12 fry on this the seventh day of free swimming.
> Good luck and hang in there.


Not really sure, I`ve had the pair about a year now and they`re definitely still not full grown. I`ve got them all alone and have the lights on an 8 hours on 16 hours off time schedule. Floating trap sucked and didnt let enough oxygen in is my guess, although I had the fry sitting in moss so they wouldn`t be sitting exposed near the edges.

Reading your post is now making me rethink my plan of separating the fry. Might just leave them with the angels and let them figure it out as they go.

What kind of angels are you breeding?


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nice looking Angels by the way. I sent you a personnal message.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Koi are recessive. Which means they are a bit more difficult to raise. You get them to free swimming which is good. Unfortunately with longfin Koi you have a small window of time to have them eat. If live food isn't available in the hours after becoming free swimming they soon perish. You'll need to get brine shrimp eggs and hatch them out. I find longfin Koi angel eggs are much smaller than other angels especially in young pairs. Which means if you can get San Francisco strain of brine shrimp there's a better chance they will feed on this smaller shrimp. You can buy small quantities of San Fran at most stores to get started. You should feed them three to five times a day initially. It's difficult raising fry with parents. If the lights go out they usually wake up and eat their own fry. However at times you can get super parents that will raise the fry and guard them well. Not all spawns are created equal. Some females produce smaller clutches with larger eggs. Some produce many eggs that are so small that the free swimming fry have a difficult time eating and making it past their first week.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I would add to the above that conditioning of the parents plays a role. Feed them well with high quality food. As mentioned, it is important to feed as soon after free swimming as possible, especially with the weaker strains. Water needs to be clean also, so, I prefer a bare bottomed tank. I'm having a hard time with Kois myself.


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## Merman (Nov 23, 2009)

*A little help:*

Hmmm, great looking angels - nice round body and good long fins (most people fail at this stage)/they're breeding/eggs are hatching....you're almost there.

I know what I'm about to tell you probably sounds like a lot, but believe me if you're dedicated to raising angels and stick with it all becomes so simple.

Rather than try to raise fry with their parents (even I haven't managed this one and don't care to) I would suggest getting a handle on raising the fry first.

Do this in stages if you want - get the items below and before raising fry try hatching the shrimp/see what they look like/see how long it takes for them to hatch, etc. - you don't have to throw these shrimp out they can be frozen.
The fry will not eat plant material or 'fry food' (there's a lot of stuff on the market that shouldn't be on the market??)

You're going to need a 10 g. tank with it's own heater and filter system (an AC 20 is perfect). Leave the tank completely bare and not a lot of light/same temp as parent tank. After the parents have finished laying wait a couple of hours to be sure they're finished and then fill an appropriate container with the tank water and go in and remove the leaf/filter intake tube/slate with the eggs - don't expose the eggs to air at any time. Once you've got the eggs in the container set it aside while you siphon off 5 or so gallons of the parents water and add it to the 10g (you want the water to be as identical as possible if not the same/this aged water is better/good time for a good water change in the parent tank). Add a 1/2 tsp. of 'Maroxy' to the water - (an anti-fungal agent/about $10 an entire bottle) each day until the eggs hatch.

Once the fry become free-swimming feed them hatched baby brine shrimp (2 litre pop bottle/cut off first 3" of bottom/turn upside down in parent tank/make 2 holes across from each other about an inch down from new edge of bottle/fill with water/chopstick through holes/hang in corner of tank/a half teaspoon of shrimp eggs/2 tblsp sea salt/pinch of baking soda/aerate with tubing from pump (no airstone)/weight into bottom-spout with elastic band and stone/hatch in 24 or so hours/use turkey baster to put solution in wine glass to check on hatch rate against light/turn aeration off let hatched shrimp sink to btm of bottle/use baster to put shrimp into wine glass/seive through brine shrimp net ($3)/invert into 10g. - fry are fed - their bellies will swell and turn orange when they're full. Obviously as they grow you'll need to feed them more and the more that goes IN the more that must come OUT - do a lot of water changes - about 25% a day.

And don't forget to CULL your brood, so few people do this and that is why the market is saturated with ugly stunted angelfish with short stunted fins and poor body shape. It appears you have good lineage in the parents and you'll want to keep it that way with the young - be very selective.

I know it sounds like a lot and you'll learn and develop your own technique as you go and once you've got all the equipment you'll need you don't have to buy it again.

Any questions feel free to ask.

P.S. Messing around the parents with i-phones/camera flash, etc. may disturb them into eating their fry/eggs.

Good Luck


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## lybrian1 (Aug 10, 2010)

I dont mean to hijack your thread but i am in a similar situation but my pair havent spawn yet. i have a pair of angels which seem to paired off in my 75g community tank. i have sectioned them off from the other fish. i have several other empty tanks but i dont want to disturb them by moving them out. any how i noticed they were cleaning the filter intake and their papilla was showing. i put in a magnetic algae scrubber and they began to clean that instead of the intake which was what i was aiming for. i am currently doing 10% water changes every other day with slightly colder water. and i am feeding them frozen blood worms and brine shrimp and beef heart mix. 

it has been 3-4 days after i noticed they were vigoriously cleaning to algae scrubber and now thing shave seemed to slow down. the male seems to be uninterested in the cleaning and and even the female seems to be cleaning very slowly and both just hangs out in the tank now. am i doing anything wrong? what can i do to induce their spawning?


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## DZinck (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I'm actually bringing this batch of eggs to another member's home in my area who's already successfully bred tons of angels over the years so this particular batch should be okay. This advice will definitely really help once I start raising the fry on my own.
Is a 10 gal big enough for sure? They're in the planted 20 now and I do have a 10 sitting in the back that I could set up, just want to make sure they'll be 100% alright with the downgrade. 
Also, completely bare? Any floating plants that would help?

Also, I bought some decapsulated brine shrimp eggs, does this mean they're useless. It said they were more nutritious than live bbs, which I just cant bring myself to believe (theres got to be some benefits to feeding live food. I FEEL it).

Also, I wasn't going to cull the babies earlier, but after reading this post I have decided to do it right from the start. I'll help keep the crappy genetics out of our aquariums.



Merman said:


> Hmmm, great looking angels - nice round body and good long fins (most people fail at this stage)/they're breeding/eggs are hatching....you're almost there.
> 
> I know what I'm about to tell you probably sounds like a lot, but believe me if you're dedicated to raising angels and stick with it all becomes so simple.
> 
> ...


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Decapsulated cysts purportedly have as much nutrition as hatched BBS. The ones sold as decapsulated won't hatch so you have to wonder. The issue with newly hatched BBS is they need to be fed as soon after hatching as possible, as you are in fact feeding the yolk sac which the BBS starts consuming as soon as it hatches. It is therefore of benefit to get them to hatch as quickly as possible and feed them to the fry as soon as possible after hatching. I have found that at 80F most will hatch in less than 24 hours, sometimes as little as 18 hours. I do decapsulte my cysts with bleach before hatching. I find I get a higher hatch rate and it is a bonus to not have to deal with the hulls. In addition you get a bacteria free food and no hydra, which can occasionally be introduced with BBS.
I have also found that taking the eggs out of the water to move them has no effect, and I always put the newly laid eggs in fresh water, not bacteria/fungus laden tank water. Methylene Blue is my chemical of choice, because it is cheap, visible, you add only once, and works. 
As far as culling goes, they need to get to a certain size before you can really tell what the defects are. If you are finding that a lot of culling is required, that pair shouldn't be bred; some go as far as to say the pair should be killed.. The ones that survive the culling will be carrying the same genetics as the culled fish.
I will agree that there are problems with good colour and good finnage together in some strains of Koi. Finnage should not suffer at the expense of colour.


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## Merman (Nov 23, 2009)

lybrian1 said:


> I dont mean to hijack your thread but i am in a similar situation but my pair havent spawn yet. i have a pair of angels which seem to paired off in my 75g community tank. i have sectioned them off from the other fish. i have several other empty tanks but i dont want to disturb them by moving them out. any how i noticed they were cleaning the filter intake and their papilla was showing. i put in a magnetic algae scrubber and they began to clean that instead of the intake which was what i was aiming for. i am currently doing 10% water changes every other day with slightly colder water. and i am feeding them frozen blood worms and brine shrimp and beef heart mix.
> 
> it has been 3-4 days after i noticed they were vigoriously cleaning to algae scrubber and now thing shave seemed to slow down. the male seems to be uninterested in the cleaning and and even the female seems to be cleaning very slowly and both just hangs out in the tank now. am i doing anything wrong? what can i do to induce their spawning?


...if you are just intending on raising the fry separately from the parents you've no need to move the parents anywhere. I'm thinking they may feel disturbed about being sectioned off - depending on the other fish in the tank you may not have to do this either. I usually keep each pair of angels that I have on their own in a tank/no other angels in the tank, I have one pair that are in a 45 g with a school of nine almost full grown rainbowfish and some corys (that is my worst crowding by far) the rest share with a few dozen or so small tetras/corys/few platies I think they may need elbow/fin room to feel comfortable enough to spawn. I don't think gouramis or other cichlids - fish that would notice the eggs are good in this way....wondering what fish you have in the tank.

.....there's no need to treat the parent angels any differently to get them to spawn....I definitely wouldn't add cooler water to the parents tank/slighly warmer water can be added to the tank but adding cooler water would disturb them and would be bad for them overall/you may induce shock and it may be contributing to their overall discomfort (nothing like a cold shower to shrivel the urge..lol??)/they could develop 'ich' from it as well.... sounds like you've been into a little misinformation somewhere along the line. Cooler water is added to cory tanks/mimics melting moutain snow but not angels.

I don't know about anyone else but I usually don't know if I've got a male and female pair until eggs hatch or I've watched them spawn - two females or two males will sometimes pair up/flaring fins/sticking together all the time - the whole song and dance (nature's so unnatural, isn't it? lol). The chances of your having a viable male and female pair are much higher than not.

I think a big problem people get into when they realize their fish are pairing up is to get all into a frenzy and start taking pics/adding dividers/inviting friends over to see, etc....it's only natural I've been there...just remember: whatever got them to the stage of 'almost' laying should be continued - they like it the way it is or they wouldn't be trying to spawn. That being said, once these guys get going they'll lay every two/three weeks or so - I'm at the stage now where when I see mine laying I think, 'oh no, not again'...the other fish in the tank look all skittish and are at one side of the tank - be careful what you wish for lol - there's no need to stress about any of it another plane will be taking off in another two weeks. Patience pays.

Hope I helped.


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## lybrian1 (Aug 10, 2010)

Merman said:


> ...if you are just intending on raising the fry separately from the parents you've no need to move the parents anywhere. I'm thinking they may feel disturbed about being sectioned off - depending on the other fish in the tank you may not have to do this either. I usually keep each pair of angels that I have on their own in a tank/no other angels in the tank, I have one pair that are in a 45 g with a school of nine almost full grown rainbowfish and some corys (that is my worst crowding by far) the rest share with a few dozen or so small tetras/corys/few platies I think they may need elbow/fin room to feel comfortable enough to spawn. I don't think gouramis or other cichlids - fish that would notice the eggs are good in this way....wondering what fish you have in the tank.
> 
> .....there's no need to treat the parent angels any differently to get them to spawn....I definitely wouldn't add cooler water to the parents tank/slighly warmer water can be added to the tank but adding cooler water would disturb them and would be bad for them overall/you may induce shock and it may be contributing to their overall discomfort (nothing like a cold shower to shrivel the urge..lol??)/they could develop 'ich' from it as well.... sounds like you've been into a little misinformation somewhere along the line. Cooler water is added to cory tanks/mimics melting moutain snow but not angels.
> 
> ...


So the two i think is a pair, should i move them out into a tank of their own?
they have not spawn yet.

either way the divide should be going down right? i should either take down the divider and make it a community tank again or take it down then move the 'pair into a separate tank, what do you think i should do?


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## Merman (Nov 23, 2009)

...the 10 g tank is for the hatching and rearing of the fry/not the parents....sorry there I forgot to tell why a 10 g is good for me. I use a AC20to keep the water clean because I can gradiate the amount of water flow....when the eggs are hatching you want it high/more circulation to aerate the eggs properly and keep sediment/fungus etc. from settling on them. When they hatch you turn it on low so as not to thrash the hell out of your angel fry/the 'eggs' develop a tail then eyes (3rd day) and they are attached to each other/later a surface by a sticky filament that extends from their heads. A clear turkey baster is good here because you use it to mimic the cleaning of the fry by the parents by squirting them around a bit to get them going once the eggs sac is absorbed (clear because then you can see if there any fry stuck to the inside the baster when you're finished).

The nylon stocking and needlepoint plastic I had referred to earlier is used to keep the babies from getting sucked into the filter and yet it provides enough distance from the filter intake to prevent the fry from getting sucked to death/damaged. I believe the perforated plastic is 8" by 12"/it is rolled up lengthwise (12" roll) and placed into the foot or end of the stocking and an 'end' could be one made by you in the form of a knot anywhere along the stocking you just need a piece about 18" or so. When you put the roll in it can only expand out within the stocking about 3 or 4" 's - enough room for the intake and an inch or so all around the intake tube. This contraption stands upright in the 10g tank (12" or so deep/be sure the upper edge is out of the water or your fry will flow inside and get sucked up. You're going to have to put stones or other extra filter intakes down in around your working intake tube to keep the stocking from closing in on and encumbering your operating intake - keep your eye on it and fiddle with it every now and then to be sure it's all opened and clear. So it's because of the one foot height that I use a 10g. tank and it's enough to raise your fry for about a month or so - then they're moved to a larger tank or divided up into other tanks.

Culling: I didn't mean to sound so stern on this - this is entirely up to you/who am I to say? As another member said above, the culling is done later not when the fry are just new. Angelfish fry don't look like angelfish until they're about three weeks old or so then they start developing their fins and angelfish shape. Up until this point they just look like clone baby guppies: there's no differentiation at this point so you wouldn't cull until the stage where you can see whether they're lacking or not. With your first batch or so you don't want to lose any but if you try to keep them all (150/200/300) you're going through an awful lot of food/all of them are usually crowded and if you think about it your just sacrificing the goods ones and ending up with a bunch of poor and mediocre fish.

As with anything it all comes together the more you do it/you can read about it/talk about it/watch videos on it but you've got to go through it and see it all for yourself - I find it all pretty amazing.

Hope it helps.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Remove the partion or leave it up. Let them spawn in the tank on a piece of slate. Remove the spawning slate to a hatching jar. Use methylene blue to stop the fungused eggs from spreading. Rear the babies in a separate tank. Get another tank ready for the next spawn. If you decide to breed angels you can always expand at a later date and place the pairs in separate tanks. You will have to heat the spawning jar in a small tank with a heater as the temperature has dropped of late.


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## lybrian1 (Aug 10, 2010)

okay I took down the tank divider and right away all the angels began to fight eachother and lock mouths, nip and become extremely aggressive to eachother. the two I though was a pair stopped showing any signs of breeding. their papilla is completely gone and they don't even clean any more. everyone is too busy fighting eachother. I moved around some ofthe ornaments and did a water change but it didn't help. there are 7 adult angelfish in my 75g tank. did I do anything wrong? is there any more hope that the angels will breed any time soon?


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## DZinck (Aug 18, 2010)

lybrian1 said:


> okay I took down the tank divider and right away all the angels began to fight eachother and lock mouths, nip and become extremely aggressive to eachother. the two I though was a pair stopped showing any signs of breeding. their papilla is completely gone and they don't even clean any more. everyone is too busy fighting eachother. I moved around some ofthe ornaments and did a water change but it didn't help. there are 7 adult angelfish in my 75g tank. did I do anything wrong? is there any more hope that the angels will breed any time soon?


Maybe get a nice bare 20g ready for when the next 2 pair off and toss them in there? The lip locking is something I see between my angel pair in their tank, sometimes to show dominance and I also heard my female may be testing the male to make sure he is a suitable mate. Not sure what I can tell you beyond that.


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## lybrian1 (Aug 10, 2010)

i have a 30g and 3 tens for the babies
they are ready to be set up any time i filters seeding in other tanks.

i felt i made a big mistake by taking off the divider. the original pair is no longer a pair, other males are chasing away the female from the spawn site. actually 2 males i bought form the same breeder seems to be dominating everybody, they are chasing and nipping everybody in site no matter where in the tank they go. no one is cleaning and no one seems to want to breed anymore.

is it a good idea to move out the two i thought was a pair? or has the ship sailed on that idea

i dont get it, do i move the angels to a another tank after i see them spawn or when i suspect that they are a pair but havent spawn yet


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

I have a set up with five breeding pairs of peru angels in a 50 gallon tank. There are multiple spawning sites set up in all corners and in the middle using slate pieces. The pairs often fight but when they want to spawn they will usually go into one corner and defend the site until I remove the spawn on slate. If you watch them you can tell which have paired off by their behaviour. Now in your case you may want to remove each pair. It allows for the next pair to form without fighting with the original pair or for the original female. But there's no rush. Make sure all things are right before you do this with the other tank. The original pair most likely spawned in the night and ate their spawn by what you have described. It usually will take two or more spawns to be successful. The original pair will pair off again when the female is ready to spawn again.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

lybrian1 said:


> is it a good idea to move out the two i thought was a pair? or has the ship sailed on that idea
> 
> i dont get it, do i move the angels to a another tank after i see them spawn or when i suspect that they are a pair but havent spawn yet


When a pair is ready to spawn you can tell. The female will gesture to the male with a lot of head shakes, flaired fins, and the two will do a spawning like dance. You can remove the pair before but it may stop the spawning ritual for a time being if you move them to a new tank. They may also prefer it and spawn in the hours to follow. Either way before or after. But don't worry about interrupting the pair they will breed no matter what when the time is right.


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## lybrian1 (Aug 10, 2010)

no one in my tank seems to be spawning anymore. for some reason the favorite spawning site seems to be guarded by two males. 
where do you guys buy slate?


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I use a piece of slate tile, of the type you can get from a tile store or Home Depot or the like. I cut them to about 2 1/2" in width to force them to concentrate the eggs, and drilled a couple of holes in the top and hang them in the tank with insulated wire.


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## fishclubgirl (Mar 4, 2010)

*spawning sites*

I have 2 pair that I breed in separate community tanks. As my tanks are planted, they really like to spawn on sword plants so I don't use slate. Also I find they like to spawn dinner timeish(or when I'm at aquarium club,lol!). I use the 10 gallon and attach the swordplant leaf with the eggs to an airstone to help prevent fungus. Seems to work pretty good!!


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