# Crs 201



## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Please let me know how many crs members on gta want a CRS 201 moderate level crs tutorial. Topics will include breeding tricks, acids, UGF, crs product reviews, baby survival rate tips, nutrition, and JPRL vs PRL.

I do this because I'd really like to see this hobby florish in the GTA. However if not enough members are interested then I'll save my time and those with specialized concerns can just pm me or another other of the experienced members on here.


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## dspin02 (Oct 6, 2010)

I would love this. My tank, 30cm cube, should finish cycling in the next few days. I am currently looking to get some CRS, hopefully this weekend. That is if my ammonia levels drop to 0 over the next few days.


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## twong (Jul 10, 2011)

more importantly could we have a section of what NOT to use?


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Definitely interested in this, I think it's a growing hobby and will become more popular here in the near future. It's already booming in HK, anything booming in Asia usually ends up here in a couple years.


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## Alexpatrascu (Jun 13, 2010)

I wonder who's the guy that choose "no" in the pool....hmmm....Frank, is that you ?!?!... jk.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Who ever answers no, answers honestly because they are already pass the moderate part.
Looks like we at least have 3 experts on this forum.

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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Who ever answers no, answers honestly because they are already pass the moderate part.
> Looks like we at least have 3 experts on this forum.


That's right. Keep in mind I asked if it would benefit the specific member rather then the overall community. 
This poll is also designed as an indicator to see how many beginner level hobbyists we have in to and to see whether that trend is growing or shrinking.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Alexpatrascu said:


> I wonder who's the guy that choose "no" in the pool....hmmm....Frank, is that you ?!?!... jk.


lol now now, i did not participate in this poll. you can ask the moderators to check if i voted or if jay has allowed members who voted to be viewed you should be able to see it =P.

If you ask my opinion i'm neither for nor against it. I think anyone would agree that a thread with questions + experiences is far more useful than a thread that dictates what others claim as the answer. Just keep in mind there isn't 1 answer nor 1 method to successful breeding. There are too many variables to have a set method or setup. But there can be of course a similar setup that may work for a number of people. But hey, if you've got the experience and you want to share it. more power to you  so long as its your own work or credits can be passed back to where ever you get the info.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Ebi-Ken said:


> . I think anyone would agree that a thread with questions + experiences is far more useful than a thread that dictates what others claim as the answer.


Q and A is a great idea. You should start one.
You can even charge a membership


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Q and A is a great idea. You should start one.
> You can even charge a membership


pffft no time lol. 12 credit total courses this semester + deal with shipments. gf is getting ticked! lol


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Ebi-Ken said:


> pffft no time lol. 12 credit total courses this semester + deal with shipments. gf is getting ticked! lol


Yup yup one of those is definitely a distraction. I suggest dropping the gf. She'll vicuriously spend all your hard earned shrimp money and lower your gpa.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd be interested in things like baby survival, etc. Like right now my crystals are breeding, I see babies but its hard to know how many babies you have as they can hide in moss/dw/back of the sponge and hard to keep track of in a tank. Would it be suggestible for someone starting off to start putting babies in a breeder box or separate tank, then you can keep track and know, you put 20 babies in there, only 5 left, something wrong, 17 left, something right. I've counted at most 12 babies at once, and right now I can see 4 or 5. Is there more hiding, did I loose that many already? What kind of yields should we expect? That was from probably two moms, first time ones mind you, going to term, the best I could tell. Or would it better to take a berried mom into a different tank, then when she lets go, put her back. Just wondering on different approaches to try and keep track of babies to see how well you're doing with them and interested in how many eggs/hatchling/babys/juvi/adult you should get out of a berried female? Like is 20/16/12/9/6 a standard ratio of losses or what? My fire reds are going like nuts, they don't have a problem at all. lol. I can see like 6 different stages of them, yellow is berried and snowball is and don't expect a problem with them, but crystals I am not sure.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

dspin02 said:


> I would love this. My tank, 30cm cube, should finish cycling in the next few days. I am currently looking to get some CRS, hopefully this weekend. That is if my ammonia levels drop to 0 over the next few days.


I do not recommand anyone to put in crs right After a tank cycle.
I'm in the process of setting up another 30 gal crs tank and I plan on cycling it for 2 months. After the ammonia hits Oppm I will add bacteria from mosura bt-9 and ada bio ball and duckweed until the no3 tests yellow (near 0ppm) during this time keep the lights on atleast 12 hrs a day until you see small amounts of algae on the glass. The signifies an ideal condition to add crs.

A newly cycled tank boths lacks the benifical bacteria for crs and bio film on surfaces. Also No3. Can be very high and remember just because the ammonia/no3 tests perfect at the surface this does not apply to the substrate floor. (This takes longer time.


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## dspin02 (Oct 6, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> I do not recommand anyone to put in crs right After a tank cycle.
> I'm in the process of setting up another 30 gal crs tank and I plan on cycling it for 2 months. After the ammonia hits Oppm I will add bacteria from mosura bt-9 and ada bio ball and duckweed until the no3 tests yellow (near 0ppm) during this time keep the lights on atleast 12 hrs a day until you see small amounts of algae on the glass. The signifies an ideal condition to add crs.
> 
> A newly cycled tank boths lacks the benifical bacteria for crs and bio film on surfaces. Also No3. Can be very high and remember just because the ammonia/no3 tests perfect at the surface this does not apply to the substrate floor. (This takes longer time.


I appreciate your concern. Tank has been cycling for 7 weeks now, ammonia has fallen to 0ppm and stayed there for several days. I have algae on the glass, on my driftwood, and in the root system of my frogbit and water lettuce. have had nerite snails in there for almost a week now and they are doing great.

Also, I am getting my CRS tonight from ameekplec. I will start a thread this weekend to document my tank, hopefully everything goes well. I'm 99% confident that my tank is ready for them.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Have you tested your gh,kh,tds,no3?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Has anyone tried a leaf litter for their CRS tanks?

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...maple-leaves-crystal-red-tank.html#post597566


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Well the benifits can be achieved with lots of java moss.

And the down side would be like he said
Chemicals on the leaves.
Tannins
And decomposing stuff in your tank can have ammonia spikes.

Plus I don't ever recall any professional breeders using this.

But you can always try with low grade crs.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Well the benifits can be achieved with lots of java moss.
> 
> And the down side would be like he said
> Chemicals on the leaves.
> ...


It seems to me that the main benefit is creating lots of food from the leaves decomposing (which microscopic organisms feed on, and then CRS would feed on those organisms). I'm not sure how well java moss would compare to that...


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

My Tds is around 700 and I have way more babies surviving now. Any idea why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Think about it.

When you get a balanced tank, there are just enough nitrying bacteria to handle the biological load. Hense the reason why it's advised not to add to many fish to a tank at once. You drastically change the balance of that enclosed eco-system. Adding a pile of leaves to decompose is no different. The nitrifying bacteria has a surplus of food and will breed to catch up but that take time. In the meanwhile you have undecomposed material sitting in your tank and disturbing the balanced system. 

If the intention is to increase the gram positive bacteria count then just add a pro-biotic like mosura bt-9. It's less hassle, safer and far more astetically pleasing. As for surface area for bacteria to grow and places for b abies to hide this is where java moss flourish in that role.


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## dspin02 (Oct 6, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Have you tested your gh,kh,tds,no3?


Yes I have. I don't have a way to measure TDS, but my kh and gh have remained steady since day one at 1 and 5 respectively. I originally filled the tank with tap water, have been doing top offs with distilled water and now do water changes 25% tap, rest distilled. ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 5-10 ppm, usually closer to 5 but has been a little darker a few times I've tested. I use the API test kit with the drops. sorry, when I read your first post I thought no3 was ammonia, I get the three nitrogen based compounds, is that the right term?, confused some times.

Basically, I'm not new to aquariums, just shrimp. My water is established and holding steady, in fact my water has had the same parameters for weeks except the ammonia. I believe it took longer to drop due to the leeching from ADA aquasoil, or so I've been told. Never had ammonia linger like that before.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

matti2uude said:


> My Tds is around 700 and I have way more babies surviving now. Any idea why?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With 700ppm tds your crs would normally be dying from failed molts. 
However, a specific diet can solve that. What is your feeding. Schedule and diet?


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

dspin02 said:


> Yes I have. I don't have a way to measure TDS, but my kh and gh have remained steady since day one at 1 and 5 respectively. I originally filled the tank with tap water, have been doing top offs with distilled water and now do water changes 25% tap, rest distilled. ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 5-10 ppm, usually closer to 5 but has been a little darker a few times I've tested. I use the API test kit with the drops. sorry, when I read your first post I thought no3 was ammonia, I get the three nitrogen based compounds, is that the right term?, confused some times.
> 
> Basically, I'm not new to aquariums, just shrimp. My water is established and holding steady, in fact my water has had the same parameters for weeks except the ammonia. I believe it took longer to drop due to the leeching from ADA aquasoil, or so I've been told. Never had ammonia linger like that before.


Yup yup ada aquasoil does leach ammonia for about 3-4 weeks. I've cycled a 10 gal before in 2 weeks with using old tank water, mulm, old sponge, top thin layer of old ada substrate and a heater with the lights on 16 hrs a days and bacteria supplement. It's totally worth it because it will give you the ideal water conditions.

Keep your top offs at 80% r/o 20% tap as you need that kh.
And you can skip water changes if you have a good canister filter like an eheim 2213.

You can gert your no3 down to yellow by using barley pellets or duckweed.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> With 700ppm tds your crs would normally be dying from failed molts.
> However, a specific diet can solve that. What is your feeding. Schedule and diet?


I don't have a feeding schedule and I have lots of different foods I use. Sometimes I feed them in the morning and night, sometimes only in the morning and I'll skip a day whenever they haven't attacked the food the day before. I have all grades from A-SSS red and black and snow whites. I've only seen one dead shrimp in months.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dspin02 (Oct 6, 2010)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Yup yup ada aquasoil does leach ammonia for about 3-4 weeks. I've cycled a 10 gal before in 2 weeks with using old tank water, mulm, old sponge, top thin layer of old ada substrate and a heater with the lights on 16 hrs a days and bacteria supplement. It's totally worth it because it will give you the ideal water conditions.
> 
> Keep your top offs at 80% r/o 20% tap as you need that kh.
> And you can skip water changes if you have a good canister filter like an eheim 2213.
> ...


Thanks for the tips, I will start using tap water into my top offs. And as for water changes I wasn't planning on doing them regularily, maybe once every couple of months. I've only done one so far in almost 2 months, and it was only about 10-15%. Params have stayed steady the whole time.

I have a HOB cannister from AI. i think the brand is UpAqua, an Asian import I think. not sure if you are familiar with it. its pretty good, really quiet and tons of flow. I feel like a 2213 would be too much for an 8 gallon cube.

Anyway thanks again, I'm sure I will have tons of questions soon. I will start a thread of my own with pics, hopefully this weekend.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

dspin02 said:


> Thanks for the tips, I will start using tap water into my top offs. And as for water changes I wasn't planning on doing them regularily, maybe once every couple of months. I've only done one so far in almost 2 months, and it was only about 10-15%. Params have stayed steady the whole time.
> 
> I have a HOB cannister from AI. i think the brand is UpAqua, an Asian import I think. not sure if you are familiar with it. its pretty good, really quiet and tons of flow. I feel like a 2213 would be too much for an 8 gallon cube.
> 
> Anyway thanks again, I'm sure I will have tons of questions soon. I will start a thread of my own with pics, hopefully this weekend.


I run a Rena XP1 on my 8gal crystal cube and a large Hydro sponge filter. I drilled the holes in my Rena spray bar so the flow isn't as strong, and I put it a few inches below the surface and point it upwards so it breaks the surface tension, helping cool and oxygenate the water. That filter and the crystals are moving to a 20gal that is cycling right now with Netlea soil, Aqua clear 20 and 30 both with Purigen and established media and a extra-large Hydro sponge that was running for months, so nice and cycled. It has brought my 7.6pH/8gH/8kH tap water down to 6.0pH/5gH/1kH in 3 days or so, I bought the tank at the auction. I used about 85% of a 9L bag in it, so its anywhere from 1.5" to 2.5" in thickness, dosing the water with Mousara bioplus to get a nice biofilm going and API bacteria stuff. I added established driftwood with moss attached, cut up marimano balls to make small balls and also let all the bacteria built up inside and a bunch of frogbit floating in the tank and its cycling nice and fast. Going to leave the light on overnight and help some algae growth.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

You are all making keeping CRS expensive and difficult. My 10 gallon tank is simple. Black gravel on the bottom, a box filter in a corner and a 9 watt soft white compact flourescent bulb from Dollarama. The plants are Java fern on driftwood with a large clump of Christmas moss and some pellia. The water is 80% tap and 20% RO. An Oak Leaf or two keeps the PH at 7. The population continues to grow as more females become berried. I had 18 CRS in the auction and can still count 50 at anytime. When you see a film of an Asian breeders tank all you see is shrimp and gravel and none of the crap that you are using in your tanks. Try keeping things simple and easy and you will have more success. You are like the plant people that think you need C02 to grow duckweed.


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## dspin02 (Oct 6, 2010)

I'd like to meet the person who thinks they need CO2 to grow duckweed.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

dspin02 said:


> I'd like to meet the person who thinks they need CO2 to grow duckweed.


Well, duckweed does need CO2, just not injected into water. 



Bwhiskered said:


> You are all making keeping CRS expensive and difficult. My 10 gallon tank is simple. Black gravel on the bottom, a box filter in a corner and a 9 watt soft white compact flourescent bulb from Dollarama. The plants are Java fern on driftwood with a large clump of Christmas moss and some pellia. The water is 80% tap and 20% RO. *An Oak Leaf or two keeps the PH at 7.* The population continues to grow as more females become berried. I had 18 CRS in the auction and can still count 50 at anytime. When you see a film of an Asian breeders tank all you see is shrimp and gravel and none of the crap that you are using in your tanks. Try keeping things simple and easy and you will have more success. You are like the plant people that think you need C02 to grow duckweed.


I actually brought this point up before. Where do you get your oak leaves and how do you prepare them for your tank? Also, how often is your water change schedule and amount?


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## dspin02 (Oct 6, 2010)

solarz said:


> Well, duckweed does need CO2, just not injected into water.


Very good point, I guess I forgot to add the word 'injected' or 'pressurized'.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Bwhiskered said:


> When you see a film of an Asian breeders tank all you see is shrimp and gravel and none of the crap that you are using in your tanks.


They also do things like run 3 Eheim Canister filters daisy chained together, chillers, CO2. So you think running a 20gal tank with 3 filters, each rated for like 60gal is keeping it simple? Who know what kinds of secret things they run in those filters too.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

getochkn said:


> They also do things like run 3 Eheim Canister filters daisy chained together, chillers, CO2. So you think running a 20gal tank with 3 filters, each rated for like 60gal is keeping it simple? Who know what kinds of secret things they run in those filters too.


They massively overfilter because their tanks are massively overstocked. There's no "secret" to filtration. It converts ammonia to nitrates, and nitrates to nitrogen gas ONLY IF there are anaerobic phases in the filtration.


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

A bit later this month is the time to gather oak leaves. When they fall of the trees fresh and dry the are ready to gather and store for future use. I gather them whereever there are oak trees. At the park at the end of my street, La Salle Park on the bayshore or any number of parks in my area. Some small trees they stay on dry for awhile and can be hand picked. Late November is the time to pick Black European Alder Cones.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Ouu where can I find aldar cones? 
Have they been sprayed by chemicals?

P.S

-I've begun the 201 tutorial. The first bit will cover the importance of water ranging from paras to bacteria to general care and maintainence.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

what are the alder cones for?


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

The European Black Alder is an invasive species. It grows sporatically all along the Atlantic Seaboard and into this part of Ontario. It was first used in the hobby by Han Georg Evers to protect catfish eggs from fungus. It generally grows along stream, river or lake shores. In Ontario the trees stay small about 20 feet tall. They tell me there are some near the Toronto Zoo on conservation land. They grow in the Niagara Gorge and even reach the top near the Cable Car. They grow along the Grand River in Brantford back of The Tropical Fish Place. They are at Silver Lake at Port Dover and at La Salle Park in Burlington along the bayshore and board walk. All parts of the tree are very acidic. I may try the leaves as well this fall. The cones are not much good until late November when the frost dries and opens them to release the seeds.
Here is a link to some information and pictures.
http://www.cirrusimage.com/tree_European_black_alder.htm
http://ontariotrees.com/main/species.php?id=2002


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Think there'll be any in the dvp? Lol... damn it why is nothing downtown.

Which type of oak for the leaves?


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## Bwhiskered (Oct 2, 2008)

splur said:


> Think there'll be any in the dvp? Lol... damn it why is nothing downtown.
> 
> Which type of oak for the leaves?


I prefer White Oak Leaves but often I use Red Oak and they work just as well.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I hope we get better oak leaves this time around. My bag of oak leaves I collected 2 years ago finally ran out. The last 2 years have been poor harvest because it rains too much and the leaves got fugused before it even falls off the tree. These are not good. So you really have to go oak tree shopping(selecting) now. Look for a healthy one and keep an eye on the tree and the weather. If the tree leaves turns brown. It's good and you need to pick it before it rains.

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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Ouu where can I find aldar cones?
> Have they been sprayed by chemicals?
> 
> P.S
> ...


Cool. Sounds good.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

Bwhiskered said:


> The European Black Alder is an invasive species. It grows sporatically all along the Atlantic Seaboard and into this part of Ontario. It was first used in the hobby by Han Georg Evers to protect catfish eggs from fungus. It generally grows along stream, river or lake shores. In Ontario the trees stay small about 20 feet tall. They tell me there are some near the Toronto Zoo on conservation land. They grow in the Niagara Gorge and even reach the top near the Cable Car. They grow along the Grand River in Brantford back of The Tropical Fish Place. They are at Silver Lake at Port Dover and at La Salle Park in Burlington along the bayshore and board walk. All parts of the tree are very acidic. I may try the leaves as well this fall. The cones are not much good until late November when the frost dries and opens them to release the seeds.
> Here is a link to some information and pictures.
> http://www.cirrusimage.com/tree_European_black_alder.htm
> http://ontariotrees.com/main/species.php?id=2002


Holy crap sounds like a world of warcraft quest.
How about you grab as much as you can and I trade you for some crs food from korea?


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Bwhiskered said:


> I prefer White Oak Leaves but often I use Red Oak and they work just as well.


Unfortunately I've failed to find white oak leaves in downtown, but there's an abundance of really nice red oak leaves on UofT campus. Tonnes of beautiful leaves so I'm going to get some of those today.


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## Fishyfishyfishy (Mar 3, 2008)

Bwhiskered said:


> You are all making keeping CRS expensive and difficult. My 10 gallon tank is simple. Black gravel on the bottom, a box filter in a corner and a 9 watt soft white compact flourescent bulb from Dollarama. The plants are Java fern on driftwood with a large clump of Christmas moss and some pellia. The water is 80% tap and 20% RO. An Oak Leaf or two keeps the PH at 7. The population continues to grow as more females become berried. I had 18 CRS in the auction and can still count 50 at anytime. When you see a film of an Asian breeders tank all you see is shrimp and gravel and none of the crap that you are using in your tanks. Try keeping things simple and easy and you will have more success. You are like the plant people that think you need C02 to grow duckweed.


100% agree! I just throw the shrimps in and they keep on breeding. I don't even feed them! I just let nature do it's work.


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