# Asian carp in the Great Lakes..



## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Well, it seems the electric barriers didn't keep them out afterall. DNA evidence shows asian carp have gone much further than previously thought. Don't release fish into the wild!!!

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environmen...ence-finds-something-fishy-near-Lake-Michigan


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

I'd like to know what they mean by DNA traces. They haven't found a fish but they found DNA. I'll believe it when someone catches a fish.

Lee


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I don't get it, why would it decimate the fishing industry? If those carp populations grow at the expense of native species, why not just catch those carps instead?


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## dchow (Oct 30, 2009)

These carps are not as popular as other fish as a food source. Carp in general are far less valuable from an economic standpoint than bass, trout, etc.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

solarz said:


> I don't get it, why would it decimate the fishing industry? If those carp populations grow at the expense of native species, why not just catch those carps instead?


thats what people are doing, trying to catch as much as possible to decrease the population of asian carp. And trying everything to stop them frmo reaching lake michigan.

A lot of the commercial fisherman fish for catfish and buffalos, which are much more marketable. Asian carp right now is just not as marketable right now to sell as food, which means if they start relying on asian carp, they would need to fish a lot more fish.

plus, those asian carp are not the most tasty of fish.


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## dchow (Oct 30, 2009)

Hitch said:


> thats what people are doing, trying to catch as much as possible to decrease the population of asian carp. And trying everything to stop them frmo reaching lake michigan.
> 
> A lot of the commercial fisherman fish for catfhish and buffalos, which are much more marketable. Asian carp right now is just marketable right now to sell as food, which means if they start relying on asian carp, they would need to fish a lot more fish.
> 
> plus, those asian carp are not the most tasty of fish.


Actually its pretty gross. My mom made it when I was a kid. The texture is terrible and the flavor bleh.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

My memory of it is that it tastes like mud


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## default (May 28, 2011)

they jump like crazy too.. hope they dont reach our lakes.. but i wonder how they found dna too.. without actually finding the fish.


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## uberdave (Dec 11, 2010)

Well they should open a limitless fishing proposition that allows the public to take home all the asian carp they want but regular fishing licensing rules apply to other species. Since as an asian, I can speak that anything asian catches, they will keep.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Hitch said:


> thats what people are doing, trying to catch as much as possible to decrease the population of asian carp. And trying everything to stop them frmo reaching lake michigan.
> 
> A lot of the commercial fisherman fish for catfish and buffalos, which are much more marketable. Asian carp right now is just not as marketable right now to sell as food, which means if they start relying on asian carp, they would need to fish a lot more fish.
> 
> plus, those asian carp are not the most tasty of fish.


That's rather subjective, as I personally detest catfish.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

solarz said:


> That's rather subjective, as I personally detest catfish.


Subjective? Definitely, but on a person to person basis. But the question is not whether you or I like carp or catfish, the question is the effect on economy and the market. Whether we like it or not, right now catfish demands a higher buck/pound than Asian carp.


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Hitch said:


> Subjective? Definitely, but on a person to person basis. But the question is not whether you or I like carp or catfish, the question is the effect on economy and the market. Whether we like it or not, right now catfish demands a higher buck/pound than Asian carp.


agreed. they also want to keep the ecosystem too. these asian carps are devastating to an eco system like our lakes they become apex predators.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Hitch said:


> Subjective? Definitely, but on a person to person basis. But the question is not whether you or I like carp or catfish, the question is the effect on economy and the market. Whether we like it or not, right now catfish demands a higher buck/pound than Asian carp.


There seems to be a misconception about the Asian Carp:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_carp


> *Asian carp have been a popular food fish in Asia for thousands of years. However, many people in North America associate the term carp with Common Carp, an unrelated bottom-feeding, worse-tasting fish that were introduced from Eurasia much earlier.*
> The pearly white flesh - complicated by a series of bones - is said to taste like cod or described as tasting like a cross between scallops and crabmeat. *They are low in mercury because they don't eat other fish.* In order to make the fish more appealing to American consumers, the fish have been renamed Silverfin or Kentucky Tuna. [34] There also volunteer efforts to increase the popularity further by making and selling fish cakes and using the entrails to make fertilizer. Carp caviar is also increasing in popularity and is an alternative to further endangering sturgeon.





default said:


> agreed. they also want to keep the ecosystem too. these asian carps are devastating to an eco system like our lakes they become apex predators.


Refer to above. They are not predators, they are herbivores.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

I dont think there is a common misconception about asian carp. All the news we read are talking about a couple of species of invasive carp, two of the prominent being the bighead and silver. They are filter feeders for plankton, but they are still devastating to the ecosystem. 

Although I think this is now going onto a different topic. Originally the discussion that I entered/started was the economic effects of asian carp and how it effects the commercial fishing.

It is true that there is a large asian market for the carp, but in the US, there arent that kind of market. So some fishermen have already changed tactics and branched to oversees markets, but many still rely on the fishing on native species, mainly because there is no market for asian carp in the states right now. It is them who are suffering, and in the current state of financial turmoil, and the recent events in the US, it definitely doesnt help the situation.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

The Great Lakes need to be cherished and we should try to keep them as clean as possible. The area is already hit with acid rain, reduced water levels, zebra mussel explosion, and now/soon to be Asian carp. The lakes have been pressures for a long time because of bad container shipping practices that introduce these species from their ballasts. Can't forget the dumping of oil either.

I think conservation, especially with our person-power, technology, and our need to create new jobs is essential. Invasive species usually come from places that have the natural ability to maintain a balanced ecosystem.
The invaders in new territories are pests. And they can decimate local populations.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Hitch said:


> I dont think there is a common misconception about asian carp. All the news we read are talking about a couple of species of invasive carp, two of the prominent being the bighead and silver. They are filter feeders for plankton, but they are still devastating to the ecosystem.
> 
> Although I think this is now going onto a different topic. Originally the discussion that I entered/started was the economic effects of asian carp and how it effects the commercial fishing.
> 
> It is true that there is a large asian market for the carp, but in the US, there arent that kind of market. So some fishermen have already changed tactics and branched to oversees markets, but many still rely on the fishing on native species, mainly because there is no market for asian carp in the states right now. It is them who are suffering, and in the current state of financial turmoil, and the recent events in the US, it definitely doesnt help the situation.


Come on, if there's a large asian market, then there's the potential for a large US market. It's just a question of opening up that market and getting people to try it. Just 20 years ago, the US market for sushi, tofu, and soy milk was miniscule as well.

From the same wikipedia article:


> The Illinois Chamber of Commerce and American Waterways Operators both sided with Illinois in the lawsuit, filing affidavits and arguing that closing the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal would upset the movement of millions of tons of vital shipments of iron ore, coal, grain and other cargo, totaling more than $1.5 billion a year, and contribute to the loss of hundreds, perhaps thousands of jobs. In response Michigan noted that *the value of the sport fishing and recreation industry*, already heavily impacted in other states with large carp populations, would be impacted by more than $3.0 billion and the loss of at least 4,000 jobs.


This to me is the perfect example of an industry unwilling to adapt to a changing environment and fighting against the current. There is no good reason why sports and recreation fishing cannot exploit the asian carp instead.


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## vrb th hrb (Feb 20, 2010)

I dont see where you're going with your argument solarz

are you saying it's ok to introduce foreign species regardless?

comparing asian carp to tofu and sushi is like apples and oranges. americans like catching bass and walleye, candadians do too, but they also enjoy catching trout species.

stock levels of those three fish would decrease dramatically if the asian carp was introduced to canadian lakes and rivers. catching carp is like catching a large surfboard, oddly enough they taste like a surfboard too.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

solarz said:


> Come on, if there's a large asian market, then there's the potential for a large US market. It's just a question of opening up that market and getting people to try it. Just 20 years ago, the US market for sushi, tofu, and soy milk was miniscule as well.


we are talking about a way of life for these people for generations, it is not as easy for us outsiders to just say "change". Its not something that would happen over night. If there is huge profits with the Asian market, there will be some dramatic drop in the industry before it can comfortably turn over to mostly exporting. Considering the fear that the US is heading into another recession, one can understand the fear in the industry.

Also, if we look into the logistics. asian carp grows to 60-80 lbs, they are powerful fish. Those fisherman who have successfully converted to fishing asian carp, they had to change their nets to more powerful nets (since the carps are ripping through the normal nets), they had to change boats to much larger boats to cope with the weight of all of the asian carp. All these cost a fortune, which individual fishermen cannot afford. Lastly, the high price on the US dollar (eventhough its dropping, but still high for asian markets), would mean the fishermen would need to demand EVEN less $/lb on the asian carp to be competitive to the already existing markets in Asia. This would mean they would need to work even harder and catch even more fish to make the same revenues. Many fishermen just cant afford that.

It would be very naive on our part as outsiders to just shrug out shoulders and say "suck it up and change with the times".



solarz said:


> This to me is the perfect example of an industry unwilling to adapt to a changing environment and fighting against the current. There is no good reason why sports and recreation fishing cannot exploit the asian carp instead.


As for recreation, any recreational fishermen would strongly disagree with you. There are species of fish they like to catch, whether its the challenge or the look. Its not fighting against the current, its a gradual loss of their hobby. How would you feel if the government suddenly passed a law saying the only fish people can keep in their aquariums are neon tetras. (not the best example I know, but its the best we got).


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

vrb th hrb said:


> I dont see where you're going with your argument solarz
> 
> are you saying it's ok to introduce foreign species regardless?
> 
> ...


I'm saying when you're trying to fight against nature, including human nature, you're waging a futile and ultimately self-destructive battle.

First, no private enterprise is willing to shell out money for "anti-carp" measures. This means taxpayer dollars (American or Canadian).

Second, efforts to prevent a wild species from thriving in an environment where it is designed to thrive is futile. No "anti-carp" system is going to be 100% "carp-proof", and it only takes a few that successfully evade the system to render that entire system into an expensive obsolete waste of money.

However, planned and regulated exploitation of the asian carp as a wealth-generating resource has the double benefit of controlling carp population *and* generating income. That is the most ideal solution to the problem.

What irks me however, is that people are automatically dismissing the value of the carp as an exploitable resource based on their prejudices. It's like tofu: so many people dismissing it because they don't know how to cook it.

My prediction is that in a decade, "anti-carp" measures will have failed, and the so-called "environmentalists" will just blame it on "the government not doing enough". Meanwhile, companies that exploit the carp for food will be making tidy profits. Asian carps, if they can thrive in the Great Lakes (which is not necessarily so), will exist alongside the native species, and none of this "doom and gloom" is going to happen.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Hitch said:


> we are talking about a way of life for these people for generations, it is not as easy for us outsiders to just say "change". Its not something that would happen over night. If there is huge profits with the Asian market, there will be some dramatic drop in the industry before it can comfortably turn over to mostly exporting. Considering the fear that the US is heading into another recession, one can understand the fear in the industry.


It's not going to happen overnight. The asian carp have been introduced to Arkansas over 25 years ago and is only now making its way to the Great Lakes.

Perhaps the most accurate description is that there is a fear in certain industries, and they're trying to get taxpayers to solve their problems for them.

My point isn't that it's "okay" for invasive species to decimate local population. My point is that there is a lot of misinformation out there and the proposed solutions from the anti-carp camp is another example of man trying to fight against nature instead of learning to work with it.


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## J-P (Feb 27, 2011)

=)

I just sold my carp fishing gear. As for sport fish, I agree with the replies above, it should be harvested on the sport level.

I am not certain about commercial harvesting though. One would end up with bi-catch and may do more damage than good.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

solarz said:


> Perhaps the most accurate description is that there is a fear in certain industries, and they're trying to get taxpayers to solve their problems for them.
> 
> My point is that there is a lot of misinformation out there and the proposed solutions from the anti-carp camp is another example of man trying to fight against nature instead of learning to work with it.


I wouldn't say that is accurate at all, I think there is a genuine concern about the impacts the spread of said fish will have on the eco-systems of the Great Lakes from many different facets of our country, industry, government and personal alike.

It isn't nature that brought them here, it was man. I'm pretty sure they didn't migrate across the vast ocean to arrive in Arkansas.


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## adrenaline (Jan 17, 2011)

To Solarz:

The asian carp and and WILL devastate all local species, as it has in every ecosystem it's made its way into. There is no beneficial factor to having them around. the problem with them is the destroy (by consuming) all natural food sources the native fish rely on, thereby desolating all local fish populations. I am an avid fisherman myself, and I have no interest in catching them. It is actually a very dangerous thing to do. 

Have you not seen any of the documentaries on them? biolgists have to take protective measures to keep themselves from getting clobbered by them (net's and cages on boats) just to do research on the rivers they are in. I cannot forsee any hobbiest taking the risk of running a motorized boat in their habitat, or the habitat they have invaded, to catch them. Any sudden noise or significant disturbance of the water starts a frenzy. When one jumps, the rest soon follow. This alone is reason enough for me to avoid any region they inhabit, and I'm sure is enough of a deterrant for any fisherman, be them hobbyists or commercial. 

I am not trying to solo you out here, just stating commercial harvesting may be tougher than you think, and hobby fishing for them is certainly very dangerous. As these carp reach lage sizes and can do significant damage when jumping out of the water.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

If you watch the documentary Waterlife, you will see a ******* fishing tournament for the carp. Flotillas of boats charge about and catch the airborne fish.


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

To me the importance of this issue is paramount? One of the reasons evolution works is because naturally separated populations of distinct species never end up crossing one another in nature. They do not compete, they do not interbreed. When you introduce a species like Asian carp to a system that has never had anything remotely similar the potential to do horrific damage is inherent. Firstly, it would have been BETTER if the carp were apex predators. Firstly, apex press usually don't reproduce as quickly. Secondly, very system has a large predatory fish relative to it's environment that could compete fairly with another similarly sized apex however, there is nothing in the great lakes that is aching like an Asian carp. Our lakes are not used to an enormous planktivore prowling their depths. 

Why is this a major issue you might ask? After all, they're only eating plankton right? Wrong. By consuming vast amounts of organisms at the bottom of the food c hain these fish are actually affecting all levels of the food c hain rather than just ne or a few levels as another fish might. There is simply nothing n our lakes that consumes filter foods at that rate and it can throw everything out of balance. Without balance, the ecosystem starts to fail and creatures at all levels begin to die off. Eventually, the damage the Asian carp do results in a decline in t heir numbers but by the time that has happened the damage they have done is irreversible. I could go into a longer explanation about how we need healthy lakes rivers and oceans for our own long term survival but I think that exceeds the scope of this discussion. 

Imagine if someone had plopped a hominid species down on earth w hen our own species was just evolving and allowed them to interbreed en masse with our ancestors or maybe they were better food collectors? At any rate, the introduction could have stymied the development of humanity and civilizatioall together. Without arguing about the merits of human civilization, I think we can agree that this would have been a bad thing. 

More than that, reducing global genetic diversity reduces the chances of life surviving the more and more drastic changes we force upon it. Every major climatic change in history that resulted mass extinctions only left isolated pockets of life where the species best suited to the new environment were able to survive. With fewer species, we make it even easier to wipe out everything earth by our own hands economies be damned. 

Obviously, the best solution is one that both gets rid of the fish froour water systems without wasting what would otherwise be a good source of food, fuel or fertilizer. I imagine carp could be used in some animal feeds as well. Of course fishing will never eradicate them entirely and in reality there is no way to get rid of just one type of fish in a body of water so any effective method would realistically kill off everything in a given area. That is why, like pregnancy, the only solution is prevention. The best we can hope to do is st op these fish from getting even further and infesting even more waterways. I do think catch limits should be ignored or increased for non-native species so we can take those we catch and put them to some practical use. I think tehe taste of these fish will keep them becoming a staple of our diets here. Asian folk eat much more seafood and lake food? Than do north Americans and the carp is less offensive to their palette. There is also a whole class of people in Asia who cannot afford to be picky about what they eat and carp is locally abundant so it's no wonder lots of people eat it. Here we have less poverty and those who are in that situation nevertheless are afforded other practical options more suited to their tastes. 

In the end, invasive species are something science and time have shown to be negative and all we as individuals can do now is our part. Please' please, please keep your fish where they belong and if you can't take care of a fish properly have the heart to euthanize the fi sh properly. It may seem cruel but its much crueler to the other thousands of fish you may be killing off just by releasing your pets into the wild. Sadly, I'm mostly preaching to the choir and this message needs to be spread on public ally funded billboards etc.


Please excuse the typos and grammatical errors, first time typing on an iPad.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Waterlife covers all of this and more. A documentary well worth seeing.


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Snakezilla is another good documentary about one specific invasive species. There's also another one I remember watching but I forget the name. Will definitely check out waterlife.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I watched Waterlife on Bold the other night. It is a NFB film, narrated by Gord Doenie, and is about water and the bad shape our water supply is in.


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