# How to stop micro bubbles in DT?



## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

I have a 40 gallon DT with 30 gallon sump.
Euro reef rs 100 skimmer.
Mag 7 return pump.
I`m getting a lot of micro bubbles in the DT and just wondering how stop it.
I put a sock on the over flow that helped a bit and also put a sponge on the intake of the return pump but still getting bubbles...
Could I slide a sponge into the baffles of the sump to stop them?


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## Windowlicka (Mar 5, 2008)

From what I understand, a sponge in the baffles ~may~ help, but it will have to be cleaned regularly, else risk become something of a "nitrate factory" as any non-filtered detritus accumulates in the pores and rots.

Can you lower the water level in your return pump section (without adversely affecting water level in your skimmer section/performance of your skimmer) to ensure that water travels over the baffles into the return section (more like a weir)? That might force (more of) the bubbles out of your water before it reaches your return pump?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

as I was always saying this is not good idea to put pump in the middle section. I have millions of bubbles coming from the tank, but after going trough to sections nothing getting in DT.
Pump also could be a problem.
It will be difficult with the rigid plumbing, but try to put pump in the refusiom using flex piping and start to find problem by making changes one by one

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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

Windowlicka said:


> From what I understand, a sponge in the baffles ~may~ help, but it will have to be cleaned regularly, else risk become something of a "nitrate factory" as any non-filtered detritus accumulates in the pores and rots.
> 
> Can you lower the water level in your return pump section (without adversely affecting water level in your skimmer section/performance of your skimmer) to ensure that water travels over the baffles into the return section (more like a weir)? That might force (more of) the bubbles out of your water before it reaches your return pump?


I raised the water level in the sump and found that there are less bubbles getting sucked down into the return pump. The water level in the skimmer section will always stay the same but I can somewhat control the return pump area. The tank has only been running for 4 days so i`m still learning control.


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

sig said:


> as I was always saying this is not good idea to put pump in the middle section. I have millions of bubbles coming from the tank, but after going trough to sections nothing getting in DT.
> Pump also could be a problem.
> It will be difficult with the rigid plumbing, but try to put pump in the refusiom using flex piping and start to find problem by making changes one by one


I was going to design it as the 3rd section as return but was reading that it`s more beneficial to the refugium to have slower flow and the water directly from the DT (before the skimmer).
I was looking at pics. of your set up to get ideas for my build. I got the tee`d ball valve on the return from you.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I have very high flow in the sump, since water is failing almost 15'. I do not have any refusioum, just chaeto. I was reading different lines than you  - "until you will have 300G refusium for 20G tank this idea to have "refusium" is BS
Sorry man 

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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

sig said:


> I have very high flow in the sump, since water is failing almost 15'. I do not have any refusioum, just chaeto. I was reading different lines than you  - "until you will have 300G refusium for 20G tank this idea to have "refusium" is BS
> Sorry man


I was looking at pics from different members to get an idea of how you guys plumbed your sumps. 
So are you saying I shouldn`t bother with a refusium? Or the flow thru it doesn`t matter?


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

That sump looks "cramped" The return area normally has a bit more room. That is the area that will lower from the evaporation. So, for how small yours is, it will lower really fast. You will probably do well to add an ATO (auto top off) unit.

With how small the return area is, it means moving lots of water. I would bet that you are close to running more water than that skimmer can handle. Moving water through the skimmer section faster than the skimmer can process it, is just a waste of hydro IMO. If the skimmer pump is rated at 600 GPH, then that is the goal for the water entering that section. To give you an idea of "slow" I run an ehiem 1260 (Thanks Sig  LOL is there anyone on this board that hasn't bought something off Sig?) on my 155 gallon tank. The drain splits to my refugium, and my skimmer section. All in all, that is really low flow compared to some sumps!

Since your system is still new, it will have a bit of a break in period. The skimmer still likely hasn't "settled" down yet. That will produce some extra bubbles.


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

J_T said:


> That sump looks "cramped" The return area normally has a bit more room. That is the area that will lower from the evaporation. So, for how small yours is, it will lower really fast. You will probably do well to add an ATO (auto top off) unit.
> 
> With how small the return area is, it means moving lots of water. I would bet that you are close to running more water than that skimmer can handle. Moving water through the skimmer section faster than the skimmer can process it, is just a waste of hydro IMO. If the skimmer pump is rated at 600 GPH, then that is the goal for the water entering that section. To give you an idea of "slow" I run an ehiem 1260 (Thanks Sig  LOL is there anyone on this board that hasn't bought something off Sig?) on my 155 gallon tank. The drain splits to my refugium, and my skimmer section. All in all, that is really low flow compared to some sumps!
> 
> Since your system is still new, it will have a bit of a break in period. The skimmer still likely hasn't "settled" down yet. That will produce some extra bubbles.


Yeah it is a little cramped but if you look at the pics I tee`d the over flow to both sides of the sump to slow the flow thru the skimmer section for the reason you mentioned.That also allowed me to control the flow in the refugium.
I haven`t bought anything off of Sig YET but now that my first salt tank is up and running I hope to soon!


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

Hey J_T do you have pics of your sump? Is it the same lay out as mine?Would like to know what you have in your refugium? 
Someone else mention about the break in period to me too!


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## Redddogg69 (Oct 1, 2011)

Too much flow through the sump can force bubbles through the baffles. All too often people use the return pump for flow, the rate of turnover through the sump should be minimal to allow the skimmer and refugium to do its work. As sig said the use of refugiums is a big question mark at the sizes people do them. To be actually effective a fuge has to be three times the size of the tank. 700gph is way too much for a 40g for return, I wouldn't recommend bigger than a mag 5 and a mag 3 would be better, unless the sump is in the basement or another room adding head pressure.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

J_T said:


> If the skimmer pump is rated at 600 GPH, then that is the goal for the water entering that section. .


I think this is correct. I simple do not have option to reduce flow until I will close drain valve to 1/2", which is not good.

I was reading article which somehow calculates skimmers ability to produce and it was saying that flow trough the area and size of the skimmer do not matter.
Skimmer will take 30% biological waste from the water anyway. It is not the case, when you have skimmer rated for the 50G on the 150G tank, but it is the case when you have 300G rated skimmer on the 50G tank, you can have 80G rated and it will produce the same waste as 300G.
I can not say anything, because article was using mathematical formulas and i already forgot what it is 

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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

Redddogg69 said:


> Too much flow through the sump can force bubbles through the baffles. All too often people use the return pump for flow, the rate of turnover through the sump should be minimal to allow the skimmer and refugium to do its work. As sig said the use of refugiums is a big question mark at the sizes people do them. To be actually effective a fuge has to be three times the size of the tank. 700gph is way too much for a 40g for return, I wouldn't recommend bigger than a mag 5 and a mag 3 would be better, unless the sump is in the basement or another room adding head pressure.


I think that having a refugium for the purpose of refuge is good no matter the size. I think this is one of those confused topics. As a spot for nutrient export, yeah, needs to be huge. An are to allow pods to live safely, before ending up in the tank, small is okay.

I think the pump recomendations are perfect.

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

Redddogg69 said:


> Too much flow through the sump can force bubbles through the baffles. All too often people use the return pump for flow, the rate of turnover through the sump should be minimal to allow the skimmer and refugium to do its work. As sig said the use of refugiums is a big question mark at the sizes people do them. To be actually effective a fuge has to be three times the size of the tank. 700gph is way too much for a 40g for return, I wouldn't recommend bigger than a mag 5 and a mag 3 would be better, unless the sump is in the basement or another room adding head pressure.


I was thinking of using a Mag 9.5 at first for flow in the tank and after I did some research I learned that was wrong. I went with the Mag 7 because the head height is just over 4 feet. That brings the flow down to around 480 GPH then factor in the tee`d return and the 4 elbows that would bring it down to around 400 GPH.
The over flow is tee`d to both sides of the sump so i`m thinking around 300 GPH on the skimmer side and around 100 GPH on the refugium side.

The skimmer`s pump is rated for 350 GPH.
Still to much flow?


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## Redddogg69 (Oct 1, 2011)

Ctp416 said:


> I was thinking of using a Mag 9.5 at first for flow in the tank and after I did some research I learned that was wrong. I went with the Mag 7 because the head height is just over 4 feet. That brings the flow down to around 480 GPH then factor in the tee`d return and the 4 elbows that would bring it down to around 400 GPH.
> The over flow is tee`d to both sides of the sump so i`m thinking around 300 GPH on the skimmer side and around 100 GPH on the refugium side.
> 
> The skimmer`s pump is rated for 350 GPH.
> Still to much flow?


First off the mag 7 will pump 700gph the charts on the net are conservative to sell larger more expensive pumps. The way you have it plumbed will still flow around 600gph full open. Elbows and tee's don't add as much head pressure as people like to believe. 10x turnover is max for a return pump, so at 40g display that's 400gph max, so like I said mag 3 or mag 5. Flow inside the tank should be accomplished with a closed loop or powerheads.


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## JerseyDevil (Apr 4, 2012)

*+1 to J_T*

I also caught the part where it's only been running for four days. Sometimes your seals need to 'slime up' a little and then the problem COULD solve itself.

The other issue MAY be that your return line doesn't have a proper seal and air is getting in as well.

Of course there are all the other reasons listed above as likely culprits. Process of elimination my friend


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all the replies!
I`ll give it another week or so and if it doesn`t fix it`s self i`ll try a Mag 5

BTW... anyone looking for a slightly used Mag 7?


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

Redddogg69 said:


> First off the mag 7 will pump 700gph the charts on the net are conservative to sell larger more expensive pumps. The way you have it plumbed will still flow around 600gph full open. Elbows and tee's don't add as much head pressure as people like to believe. 10x turnover is max for a return pump, so at 40g display that's 400gph max, so like I said mag 3 or mag 5. Flow inside the tank should be accomplished with a closed loop or powerheads.


OmGosh! 

after reading this, do I have to change my pump too???

I have a return pump running @ 528 gph and a 625 gph pump for the skimmer, the tank is 27G and the sump is 20G

>.<''

What kind of problems if micro bubbles pump and stay in the display tank? Will that kill corals? O_O

sorry cpt416 for hijacking, but this is also new to me, I hope you understand!


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## Redddogg69 (Oct 1, 2011)

bigfishy said:


> OmGosh!
> 
> after reading this, do I have to change my pump too???
> 
> ...


Not sure why everyone is obsessing over their skimmer pump? If the skimmer is appropriately sized for your tank the gph on the skimmer pump is irrelevant. As for your pump big fishy, if you don't have any issues I wouldn't worry about it. 528gph is way too much through the sump for a 27g but if it's not cause to worry. As an example I have a 42g tank with a 30g sump that runs on a Sedra 3500 that pushes 350gph. I run an IN 80 skimmer on it and the gph of the skimmer pump has nothing to do with anything other than powering the skimmer, I'm not even sure where this variable entered into anything.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Ctp416 said:


> Thanks everyone for all the replies!
> I`ll give it another week or so and if it doesn`t fix it`s self i`ll try a Mag 5
> 
> BTW... anyone looking for a slightly used Mag 7?


if you going to change pump. go with Eheim.
and one more thing about flow - you can always restrict return by installing bypass back to the sump.
You can not have more flow that particular size of the drain produces There is thing as a flow rate (turnaround). I published some data (from go reef central) about pump/drain/turnaround

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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

I am using Euro Reef RS80 skimmer

I am getting micro bubbles in the display tank and I added a restrictor to my return pump. 

If I let my return pump in full mode, it can actually drain all the water out in the 3rd section before more water can go in.

Also, the cup of the skimmer will get filled by water (this happen when the return pump is running @ 500gph+)

In addition, I have an overflow box which is rated for 600gph+, but water aren't going in as fast as the return pump gives.

I am lost now


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

Redddogg69 said:


> Not sure why everyone is obsessing over their skimmer pump? If the skimmer is appropriately sized for your tank the gph on the skimmer pump is irrelevant. As for your pump big fishy, if you don't have any issues I wouldn't worry about it. 528gph is way too much through the sump for a 27g but if it's not cause to worry. As an example I have a 42g tank with a 30g sump that runs on a Sedra 3500 that pushes 350gph. I run an IN 80 skimmer on it and the gph of the skimmer pump has nothing to do with anything other than powering the skimmer, I'm not even sure where this variable entered into anything.


No worries Big fishy,
I`m only worried about the micro bubbles because they look like crap in the DT.
Redddogg69 I only listed what I had to help everyone figure out what`s the cause of them.After looking at the water level in the return part of the sump i`m pretty sure your right. I need to down size the pump.
Thanks again!


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

have a look

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26375

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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

sig said:


> if you going to change pump. go with Eheim.
> and one more thing about flow - you can always restrict return by installing bypass back to the sump.
> You can not have more flow that particular size of the drain produces There is thing as a flow rate (turnaround). I published some data (from go reef central) about pump/drain/turnaround


I did install a bypass back to the sump and tried using it but it creates the same amount of flow thru the sump that is still pushing the bubbles thru the baffles. I could try the bypass on the refuguim side of sump?


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

I think I know what happen now.

I set the overflow box too low, and the return pipe's holes (back flow holes) were above the water line (I think this cause the bubbles)

Going to fix it now!


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

sig said:


> have a look
> 
> http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26375


I based my system on this post! But as Redddogg69 said....If the manufactures GPH are under rated then my calculations were off right from the start. I`m going to change the bypass from the skimmer side to the refugium side to slow the flow in the skimmer side.Hopefully that will help to stop pushing the bubbles thru the baffles?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Ctp416 said:


> I based my system on this post! But as Redddogg69 said....If the manufactures GPH are under rated then my calculations were off right from the start. I`m going to change the bypass from the skimmer side to the refugium side to slow the flow in the skimmer side.Hopefully that will help to stop pushing the bubbles thru the baffles?


that's why I got more powerful pump than needed and using bypass to increase return flow when pump getting calcionozed and blocks with debris. I started with bypass almost full opened position and slowly was closing it during a time. it took 8 months before bypass line was fully closed and water level in DT started to decrease. Than I cleaned the pump.
That's why I suggest to look into Eheim 1262

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