# Views on what I believe and why I do what I do



## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok this is strictly not aiming towards Anna even though it may seem so or anyone, but just giving you guys a sense of why I do what I do in terms of information. Sorry this is in Anna's thread and the example I am bringing up is NOT aimed towards Anna. (Moderators if you do find this inconsiderate of me posting it here. Please copy and paste and send to my PM and close my post and I will repost in the section that you would want me to or how I should reword it).

If a vendor were to sell lets say "orange sakuras" to a customer for a price of 25 bucks (not a bad price) to a customer and the customer takes it home and keeps them in ideal water conditions for like 1 year and has not bred for them once and finds out these are actually "orange sunkist" shrimps (which are worth like what? few bucks? and require brackish water to breed so basically you can't breed them. Whose fault is it? If you go to the vendor and tell them, they will either say I got them from my supplier and they told me it was Orange sakuras in which of course the suppliers not going to take the fault. Who takes responsibility in what is being sold when and IF the vendor says that is what my supplier told me and there is nothing they can do about it. 

Not only would the vendor be viewed as a scammer whether or not they intended to do so. The customer would lose interest in the hobby because of 1 bad transaction and the false releasing of information just because "my supplier said so" degrades the hobby and instead of moving forward in new variations new shrimp new morphs. It just stops.

This is my view and why I am arrogant in terms of these types of situations. A person has never bred BKK but sees these pictures and video clips of BKK mixed with all shrimps making an assumption that BKK doesn't breed true. I have kept BKK in pure and mixed. Which is why I can vouch that yes they can breed true. Pictures don't mean anything in terms of proving it. Anyone can simply pick out imperfect ones or mixed ones and then take a picture and claim that these 2 parents gave birth to these offsprings. You breeding them for a few generations and not taking your suppliers word for it is what gives a person credibility. Yes it takes time but if you haven't done the work, what gives a person the right to deem the person that has done the work, wrong if they have only got the word of the supplier. Just because you get it from a reputable supplier does not mean anything.

There's so many more examples but the more I write the more it becomes even more personal.

Leave your thoughts on what you think is right and wrong.


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## NVES (Apr 21, 2010)

Buyer beware.

You can point the finger at vendors as much as you want, but in the end it's up to you to do your homework and ensure you are getting the product that you want.

Aaron


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

Supplier. Seller/Vendor. Buyer.

If the Seller/Vendor is selling something as a particular item and it's not, they are responsible regardless of what their supplier says. The Seller/Vendor has to do their homework as well. They are selling something as a particular item, if it's not, that's misrepresentation. If they don't know that's still their responsibility to refund than go after their Supplier.

The Buyer should also do their homework, but sometimes it's hard to tell.
For example a diamond is sold by a Supplier to a Seller/Vendor who then sells it to a Buyer. The Buyer is a regular person and doesn't really know much more than what a diamond sorta looks like. Turns out it's a fake. The Seller/Vendor is now responsible for selling a fake and is legally responsible. The Seller/Vendor can say, "my Supplier said it's real", and then go after the Supplier for a refund.

That's the principal of it, but when it comes down to a few $ only, you can look at it as a lesson learned and out the Supplier or Vendor.


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Fake diamonds look nice too. If your not educated enough to tell the difference between real and fake then you shouldn't buy them.

If it took you a year to realize you had the wrong shrimp then I don't think you can realistically go back to the seller. You should be able to tell when you pick them up. If you go back later how do you prove they are the same shrimp?

Lee


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

I totally agree with this one considering I just got ripped off by a vendor who is doing illegal business on this forum, check out bambi's thread

At the end of the day, the customer should be the one who is right. If the vendor value's their reputation and their longevity on this forum, I would suggest that they should suck it up, apologize and return the money. Being on this forum for several years now, I feel like we have grown to be a great community; people like frank, beijing, camboy, AI, ameek, chris and cid, greg, rwbrown etc have really helped our forum grow as a family. I understand that crap will happen, but those who are willing to take a risk at importing these items with the intention to distribute should take the necessary steps to make sure their product is 100% legit. Unfortunately this falls short for a few vendors on this forum, and being the tight community we are, it will really reflect on the vendor if they do not take the necessary steps to correct the situation.

Personally, I will never let my situation slide, she has not only ripped me off, but has also disrespected me, and has gone as far as to calling me names. Being a owner of a corporation that grosses a significant amount of money a year, trust me when I tell you that swallowing your pride and telling your client that they are right will get you much more respect, and end value for your product. To argue over a few bucks will kill your business/time(money) at the end of the day.
I have bought from Frank many times, and each time the product has been good/market value, but I know that if there were any problems with the plants or shrimps on a shipment, he would exchange or return asap. There is nothing more comforting than that.

If you are going to use our forum to solicit your growing business, the first thing you need to do is build your trust with people. At the end of the day, you are just hurting yourself by hurting us.

Think about it, is 25 bucks really worth another member starting a thread and letting potential customers read about it, or in my case a 10 dollar solonoid ?

Anyways, that is just my 2 pennies =P


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Bottom line? Don't buy expensive shrimps if you can't identify them.


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

I read some of the Bambi Thread. Wow. Talk about airing dirty laundry in public. Other than that, all i see is a disagreement between a seller and a buyer. Since nothing is in writing that I can see all you can do is shrug your shoulders and walk away. Just because "Most" LFS take returns after three weeks doesn't mean this one has to. All this does is re-afirm my belief that I should make all my purchases from an actual store front.

Lee


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Thankyou for all your points all valued and very good points.

Jimmy: great points as well =) whether or not I am hurting my image to get the message across in being careful in the selection of shrimp doesn't matter. As long as people have in the back of their mind to always do background checks on what they are buying, who they are buying it from and how their history of selling what it is.... IS. What I've said above i'm not leaving myself out. I would not have anyone treat me differently and I've had many locals come to my place to even check out the shrimps before even thinking of buying (only thing I refrain from doing is to show the backroom breeding setups which I've done my fair share of thinking and gathering to find all these minute details in what should be used). The shrimp part of aquarium hobbyist have grown immensely and extremely fast and I've seen NUMEROUS scams and frauds which trust me even well known shrimp keepers you know, I know have been scammed and it was 2 well known friends which one felt scammed by the other.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Lee_D said:


> I read some of the Bambi Thread. Wow. Talk about airing dirty laundry in public. Other than that, all i see is a disagreement between a seller and a buyer. Since nothing is in writing that I can see all you can do is shrug your shoulders and walk away. Just because "Most" LFS take returns after three weeks doesn't mean this one has to. All this does is re-afirm my belief that I should make all my purchases from an actual store front.
> 
> Lee


now now lets keep it more generalized  no more specifics please want to keep this as peaceful as possible. =) merci! thankyou!


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

Lee_D said:


> If it took you a year to realize you had the wrong shrimp then I don't think you can realistically go back to the seller. You should be able to tell when you pick them up. If you go back later how do you prove they are the same shrimp?
> 
> Lee


true enough but i'm just making an exaggerated timeline example. Even though if it was 1 week later and one were to go back to the vendor they would still reply the same thing and say that my supplier told me so would they not? If they were to credit you would you be happy? You bought a shrimp thinking that it can breed but your left with something that doesn't.

keep in mind i'm taking the viewpoint of the customer and only one viewpoint whereas there can of course be multiple possibilities of what happens like a customer actually favors a non breeding shrimp (given the specific water params that its owner can provide)


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

my intention of putting this up is because i see that alot of people, but of course not everyone, looking to buy shrimp because they either want shrimp in their tanks as a valued addition of color and life to their tank, so that they can breed and keep alive from one generation to the next, or see a shrimp ball! from generations of breeding.

Shrimps that aren't bred but have been attempted like amanos are only used as algae eaters. There aren't many people (i would assume because statistically it hasn't shown up alot on forum invert threads compared to crystals or cherries) that keep orange sunkist, purple zebra, red nose/ rocket shrimp and so on because they don't breed. You normally see these at LFS but majority of breeders don't sell them because they are difficult and somewhat seemingly impossible to breed (although there are success stories out there).


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

I agree with your conclusion. And never again from this seller, yet she still claims to be non profit.

Same thing goes with this seller.



Lee_D said:


> I read some of the Bambi Thread. Wow. Talk about airing dirty laundry in public. Other than that, all i see is a disagreement between a seller and a buyer. Since nothing is in writing that I can see all you can do is shrug your shoulders and walk away. Just because "Most" LFS take returns after three weeks doesn't mean this one has to. All this does is re-afirm my belief that I should make all my purchases from an actual store front.
> 
> Lee


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

Lee_D said:


> Fake diamonds look nice too. If your not educated enough to tell the difference between real and fake then you shouldn't buy them.


So I guess the police have it wrong when they arrest someone for fake diamonds, purses, watches? And when someone gets a counterfeit bill it's their fault?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Riceburner said:


> So I guess the police have it wrong when they arrest someone for fake diamonds, purses, watches? And when someone gets a counterfeit bill it's their fault?


Now that is a bit of a slipperly slope, but I do see your point.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Lee_D said:


> All this does is re-afirm my belief that I should make all my purchases from an actual store front.
> 
> Lee


Lee, I think you summed it up here.

Most private sellers come and go, but good LFS's are (hopefully) here to stay. Supporting our good retail fronts is ALWAYS beneficial - even for those who sell privately, and those trying to move from hobbyist to business - don't overlook your local LFS not only for advice, but for business as well.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Both sides have a point.

Buyer should beware. A good seller should take care of his customer. 

A good customer will report mis-identified species back to the vendor, and the vendor, if they are a good vendor will report the mis-identified species back to the distributor. 

However, there are so many ways around this:

(1) Buy any rare or expensive species direct from a breeder only.
(2) Have a good working relationship with a few suppliers or resellers only, so they will trust you, and you will trust them.


Frankly, I wouldn't buy even the "non expensive" varieties of shrimp at retail. How do I know that this $5.99 or $7.99 thing isn't going to die on me. On the other hand, if someone in Toronto is already tank-raising a bazillion of something, then I'd buy or trade for a bag full, and see how it goes.

What if you bought these misidentified shrimp and they all just died on you? That's the risk you take when you buy expensive invertebrates. I like my hobby to be a little lower in financial risk than that.

W


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

The thing is that with a lot of these things, unless there are distinct and unmistakeable characteristics that differentiate one livestock from another, then you only have the breeder/source's word to go on.

For me, if you tell me something, and I have no reason to question it based on what I see, I'll take your word for it. But if I find otherwise, then I most likely won't ever be going back to you. And it's not just fellow unscrupulous hobbyists - I refuse to go to a well known clownfish retailer because he can't stand behind his word or product.

As much as the onus is on the supplier to be able to guarantee and know what they're selling, the onus is just as much on the buyer too. But if the buyer is told something (ie, I'm sending you 'x' ) and gets something else ('y' ), regardless of the cost associated with the purchase, the seller is completely responsible, even if they're not aware that their product is inferior/insufficient. If they are aware, then they're crooked and deserve the boot. If they're not aware, then both parties should be better informed - and someone upstream needs the boot! 

As the seller you have to know your, ahem, shite. And if you don't know what you're dealing with, be prepared to defend yourself and your product.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*buyer beware*

this is such a touchy topic , i have been in the car market for 15 years and i have seen it all , good deals , bad deals , all kinds . so all we can do as respectful people is try to respect one another and h elp one anothe to the best of our ability . i dont know how many times i have hear that ALL MECHANICS ARE RIP OFFS . how can that be true i was not a bad guy . 
i worked beside a guy who ripped everyone off , so i get it , good custs will tell people that u are good providing u are good to them . i have been in this fish hobby for a little over two years , and have run into some great people 
and some bad ones , so i think like what was said earlier as a customer u have to educate your self on what u are buying being shrimp or a car
there are many people on here who i know if i asked a question would be able to answer it . i have even had offers of people to come and help me with certain things so , ask ask and ask 
again my opinion 
thanks 
tom


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## bcarlos (Nov 19, 2009)

I'll give my perspective from a vendor POV. 

There are many great online exotic freshwater and saltwater vendors, and when I was getting into the game I recognized one thing that a lot of them were lacking-- great customer service! In today's day in age, there is so much transparency and information available on the web, that the only way to really profit and last long term here is to build good, long lasting relationships with your clients. And you can't do that if you're incorrectly labelling species or not handling customer disputes in a professional and courteous manner. 

Bottom line: Yes, as a buyer you should do your research on any species you're purchasing. After all, with the exception of shrimp, many aquatic species live many years, and should be considered a long-term investment. Call me old fashioned though, but I believe a client should be able to have some confidence in the professionals they're doing busienss with. 

At the end of the day, this vendor has done irreperable damage to their online reputation, and rest assured their business will suffer as a result.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

very well put! I totally agree.



bcarlos said:


> I'll give my perspective from a vendor POV.
> 
> There are many great online exotic freshwater and saltwater vendors, and when I was getting into the game I recognized one thing that a lot of them were lacking-- great customer service! In today's day in age, there is so much transparency and information available on the web, that the only way to really profit and last long term here is to build good, long lasting relationships with your clients. And you can't do that if you're incorrectly labelling species or not handling customer disputes in a professional and courteous manner.
> 
> ...


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## snaggle (Feb 19, 2010)

One thing I have found in this hobby is that there are lots of fish that will be different spices just by a small mark extra ray on a fin or just comming from a different body of water. With so may spices of fish out there how can you expect every vendor and supplier to know every one that is out there and not make some mistakes.

Just look at the supply chain for fish, it starts with Fisherman/breeder, goes on to the exporter/breeder (usaly in Europe, Flordia, or Asia), from there it goes to the importer/wholesaler, from there is goes to the store. How can you expect all those people to 100% identify every single fish that goes through there doors.


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

this thread touch my heart. I tollay agree with you guys


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Both sides have a point.
> 
> Buyer should beware. A good seller should take care of his customer.
> 
> ...


True enough and with very good points, but reason why I've brought this up is because alot of people getting this deep into the hobbyist is expecting to get species which are not widely available in the market and are not attainable through LFS because of price and risk the pet stores would have to endure if anything were to happen. Which is why there is such a big risk to the customer and why I bring up this topic.

The following point also touches on Chris S and Lee_D.

If this hobby were continued upon only by the LFS bringing in stock there are a ton of species which LFS don't even touch upon which is why there are enthusiasts out there which have gotten contacts of their own to bring in certain species of fish to continue in the advancement of this hobby instead of sticking to only neon tetras and so ons (an exaggerated example)


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

bcarlos said:


> I'll give my perspective from a vendor POV.
> 
> There are many great online exotic freshwater and saltwater vendors, and when I was getting into the game I recognized one thing that a lot of them were lacking-- great customer service! In today's day in age, there is so much transparency and information available on the web, that the only way to really profit and last long term here is to build good, long lasting relationships with your clients. And you can't do that if you're incorrectly labelling species or not handling customer disputes in a professional and courteous manner.
> 
> ...


very well put  thankyou for your opinion and input.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

snaggle said:


> One thing I have found in this hobby is that there are lots of fish that will be different spices just by a small mark extra ray on a fin or just comming from a different body of water. With so may spices of fish out there how can you expect every vendor and supplier to know every one that is out there and not make some mistakes.
> 
> Just look at the supply chain for fish, it starts with Fisherman/breeder, goes on to the exporter/breeder (usaly in Europe, Flordia, or Asia), from there it goes to the importer/wholesaler, from there is goes to the store. How can you expect all those people to 100% identify every single fish that goes through there doors.


Although I agree with you in the identification of every fish in the situation you are explaining, I wouldn't so much so in the situation I'm referring. Shrimp keeping has become quite specific and the purity and lineage is often the talk of a species. The example I used before about orange sunkist and orange sakura can often be mistaken by alot of people. However, to those who have been in the industry for quite some time it can easily be depicted of the eye position, nostrum, and the basic morphic features of the shrimp. And what i'm trying to say is that, yes the customer needs to do the research but the vendor needs to do twice as much to provide the correct information for their customers and their should be no excuse because in terms of volume, the vendor isn't doing merely as much as LFS or wholesalers.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Statistically speaking, if you take a risk that the LFS is not even prepared to take, then expect to get burned now and then.

The LFS know that distributors have to just look at some tiny, stressed out juvenile and try to guess what it is. They know that this is an error-prone business. And they know that very FEW People will pay a lot of money for some bedraggled thing that arrives at the LFS all stressed out.

The small number of people (including you) who get "really deep into the hobby" are (a) to be praised for keeping some species available in the hobby at all, that otherwise would not be available. so that's great!, but (b) also could maybe use to be reminded now and again that this is a hobby, and that when you hit a disappointment like this, as Alanis Morisette would say, you live, you learn. Not trying to be insensitive here. Just trying to point out that you probably won't lightly take such a risk again, will you?

W.


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## qwerty (Dec 15, 2009)

When you buy diamonds at a store, that store pays taxes, gives receipts, keeps records, has insurance, and has to comply with regulations and laws pertaining to business practices. So by opening up a proper business, they've already entered an agreement to assume responsibility for conducting fair business and can be held accountable.

Stores can also state that they will not accept returns of specific items to avoid being scammed or risking contamination of their stock. Some pet stores do it, music stores do it, and most stores do it on computer parts or other electronics, and you agree to these terms when you purchase the item from them.

So there you go. Read the fine print, and know exactly what you're agreeing to before handing over your money, and if you don't like the agreement, don't enter into it.

It would be nice and decent of a private seller to ensure your satisfaction, but they have little obligation to, and what little obligation they do have probably isn't worth your time, effort, and money to enforce and prove. They know this, you know this, so there's no point in arguing over right, wrong, and moral ethics, because it's not going to change the way things work. Be more careful next time.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

@qwerty: Exactly.

When you pay MORE through a store, you hope you get better service. When you pay LESS and go privately, you have less recourse, really, should something not go your way. Like it or not, all purchases of living things, carry a risk of getting something (a) that will just die, or (b) perhaps won't even be the species you (or the seller) thought it was. 

Then hopefully, because your LFS has the resources to make it right, they will. But if you purchase through something other than an LFS. Well. It's on you.



W


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## igor.kanshyn (Jan 14, 2010)

solarz said:


> Bottom line? Don't buy expensive shrimps if you can't identify them.


I would say 'buy them' and be ready to take a risk 

There is another thing.
I think that getting a 'wrong shrimps' or product is much bigger problem that getting shrimps that die fast or product that is broken.
Once you got a 'wrong' item, you probably will use it, spend your time and energy on it get disappointed even more at the end.


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

Interesting read on this thread.

Also on Jimmy's link to the group buy thread.

I have to say I've gone through a few "buyers beware" and it is discouraging in one way or another but a lesson learned for me.

But in the end the seller has to be very knowledge to what he/she is selling or the business will just go down (in my opinion).


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

With any expensive fish and or shrimp I buy. If I can't see it first I won't buy it. I won't put money down on a pre-order unless I know the importer personally and once the fish come in I reserve the right to purchase the livestock based on what I see with my own eyes.


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## yuanyelss (Mar 26, 2011)

At the end of the day, the customer should be the one who is correct. If the supplier is the value of their reputation, their longevity in this forum, I would suggest that they should suck it, apologize, pay back the money...


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