# What makes a business?



## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Hey all 

I need some help here...

What would you call a business? by that I mean.. if you have a home hobby, like aquarium keeping, what would put you into a 'business' category?

Would you say its the amount of funds you make for the year? Like when you make over a certain amount in the year you have to claim it. I am not exactly sure what that number is. 

So if someone makes 600+ in selling plants or frags.. would you want to see them out of the buy and sell and only in the general market place? 

What if they import dry goods? and turn it around for a modest profit?

Would a website make you a business? Or just a very organized hobby seller?

Could you give me your comments, advice or experience with this if you all have time? I would appreciate it!


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Ciddian said:


> Hey all
> 
> I need some help here...
> 
> ...


theplantedtank.net just went through a major overhaul of their b/s system, as they were getting "business people" in there selling when the idea of the site was the be a hobby site, b/s for people to sell extra plants, fish, shrimp when they had them to sell to the community, but it turned into huge importers selling out competing the hobby people. In the effort to keep their threads on top, it would be a "bump" with little comments like, added new pic, etc, so they made it 1 thread a month, no bumps, no comments on sales threads. You post something for sale, everything else is done through PM, no bumps, no comments in the thread. Paid member can post 2 or 3 ad's per month but that's it. Not a lot of people are a fan of the system but I see where you are going and why you are asking this.

What is the purpose of your buy/sell section? Is it to allow anyone to sell whatever they want or was the original intention, for people in the GTA area to sell their extra plants/shrimp/fish to other members and expanding the hobby, and keeping it "in the family". The problem is where to draw the line if you decide to start separating people, charging people extra to advertise if they are "bigger", etc. It's what makes that distinction that is hard to define and is going to create a divide, but if it's what you need to do, or feel the site is being used for someone else's profit and gain, without you getting something in monetary return for them using your site, server, etc for their own gain.

As I said, drawing the line is the hard part. (This example isn't directed at anyone, just I deal with shrimp, so I'm using shrimp for an example. You can substitute frag, plant, fish, etc for shrimp). If I have say 10 shrimp tanks and breed shrimp and sell my extras, and someone else has 10 tanks and just imports shrimp and sells them out, are we different or really the same. I have my tanks for enjoyment but shrimp will breed and with extras, you want to sell them and share them with other people in the hobby and in the area. Someone who just imports them and sells them, in a way, is sharing them with the are and hobby as well, but I guess more for profit. Again, that is for the site owners to decide where the line to draw is.

Do you want to have a sponsors section that you can charge a few extra bucks a year that importers can advertise in? Do large scale breeders fall into that category? Do you go the way of like 1 sales post a month or not comments on sales threads or something? Inevitably it always happens that someone who is a popular seller, their thread will get "great frags from so and so", "I've seen their tanks and they are nice", "I bought from them 3 years ago, nice frags then", "bump for a good seller", etc. The not as popular seller won't get those comments and even in a smaller forum like this site, they still get buried rather fast.

Obviously you are asking this because you are seeing more larger sales people coming in and selling and I guess it comes down to if you feel like the site is being taken advantage of as a free advertising platform for big sellers who aren't giving back or really part of the hobby, or the more the merrier, more people selling does better for everyone.

This should be an interesting topic. lol.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

A website makes you a business especially if you have a price list on live stock dry good or equipment. 

If it's a blog and no mention of selling then no you're not a business.

If you sell dry good and equipment new that you've imported/bought for resale then you're a business. If you do the same with livestock then you're a business.

If you're a serious hobbyist running dozens of tanks all purchased with money from your pay cheque you get from your everyday job and have the pleassure of selling fry/fish, plants/clippings, frag/corals and what not youre livestock produces then no you're not a business. Of course if you're selling to lfs or vendors then you've stepped over to the business side.

I don't think it should matter to the site if you're claiming taxes and all that. Common sense is enough to determine who should be posting in this section or that section of the buy/sell.

Just my honest opinion


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

This is why I only have my sig done up, and the qr code to my eventual website.

I don't know if I should be in the buy sell, or market place!

I classify myself as a business. I am trying to make this full time, and replace my part time job.

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## CallMeKenny (Aug 26, 2010)

I am currently studying business at UofT so hopefully I can be of some help.  (My business management exam is actually tomorrow ) 

Business - an organization that produces or sells goods or services to make a profit

You could also be a non-profit organization which would mean you are doing something for the community and not yourself (no profit).

- Kenneth


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Thanks guys!

Yea.. I know the goals of the site is to keep the buy and sell for the community. Also, we don't charge any extra for anything but to be ad free.

I always tell business people that they are totally free to use the general market place for all the profit they want and free advertising. 

maybe I should bring up something like a fee to make their own subforum in the general marketplace. I know some members had mentioned that they wanted the shops to keep the site updated on sales.

Having their own subforum would keep everything easy to find.

Hmm.. anyways. Just brain storming LOL


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## trailblazer295 (Mar 7, 2010)

I am on other forums for other hobbys and businesses who wish to sell items and market themselves pay a sponsorship fee to allow them. Now they do get banners on the site as well. On the flipside anyone who is clearly selling as a business and not just someone unloading a bunch of stuff has their thread deleted and possibly username suspended or banned. I haven't read all the rules about that as it doesn't apply to me. 

For a hobby that can pretty easily generate the need to sell things like livestock and plants on a somewhat consistent basis. There is a big grey area when it comes to a hobbyist needing to free up space vs a small side business or larger. As a registered business with the government you can write off supplies and equipment as they are business related. Obviously you need revenue to explain it. You can't make a business and write of thousands in equipment and only sell a couple fish. Is someone with a cat/dog that has babies you need to sell put you in the same category? Live animals are tricky, depends on the scale and how often I would say.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Trying to differentiate between businesses and hobbyists will only lead to headaches and resentment. I think the buy/sell forums are working pretty well right now, and the few actual businesses do post in the market section.

One possibility is to sell ad space for the local businesses. I don't know how much google ads pay, but it can't be that much. I'm sure the local businesses would be glad to pay 50$ a year to advertise on this forum.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

a lot of the local shops have been asked to keep it in the gen market and most have been very understanding.

I do understand why they would want it in the buy and sell because stuff is more organized. I do agree on the special space for them for a small fee of some sort.

This place isnt about profit, just something to help keep the lights on or prizes for the people who use the Gtaa site.


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## snaggle (Feb 19, 2010)

If you have a web site selling products you are a home based business.

If you have a blog and sell your fish or home made stuff <50% of the time you are not a business.

I have also seen in some photo contests that if >50% of your income is from photography you are considered pro. Some other contests say if you have been paid for your work you are pro.

I would never consider a home based breeder selling guppies a business unless they alway had a full stock list and could sell in large quantities all the time.


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## nightowl1350 (Mar 19, 2006)

In this hobby if you keep fish that breed and sell off their offspring it would take selling many, many of them to make a profit. If you count the hydro, food and your time there is almost no break even point unless you are selling rare or very expensive fish.

If on the other hand you buy in bulk ie: food, heaters, filters or other supplies and re sell them for a profit as well as selling livestock then yes you should be considered a business.

Many on here trade plants for livestock, or livestock for livestock IMO not a business, even the little guy who sells the newest batch of fry at a reasonable price still not a business. 

Just my 2 cents


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## CallMeKenny (Aug 26, 2010)

nightowl1350 said:


> In this hobby if you keep fish that breed and sell off their offspring it would take selling many, many of them to make a profit. If you count the hydro, food and your time there is almost no break even point unless you are selling rare or very expensive fish.
> 
> If on the other hand you buy in bulk ie: food, heaters, filters or other supplies and re sell them for a profit as well as selling livestock then yes you should be considered a business.
> 
> ...


Technically a business could earn a negative profit which would still make them a business.  But generally I agree and wouldn't really call them an actual business.


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## advanced reef aquatics (Apr 20, 2009)

From a brick and mortar retail perspective i have no issue and would welcome a dedicated section for a fee i would pay.
There are legit busineses that work form the house and there are those that operate in the grey area, its not hard to see who is constantly selling on any board.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

If the forum wants to operate properly and be fair to those who are just hobbyists selling their stock they should charge for a sub forum dedicated to the shop/vendor

There's is an obvious reason why all the other forums operate this way.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

CallMeKenny said:


> Technically a business could earn a negative profit which would still make them a business.  But generally I agree and wouldn't really call them an actual business.


Better tell that to Air Canada lol.

But to be honest, I think retailers have been put at a disadvantage. We have a few people who only sell here and contribute very little in the way of anything else. Are they a business? You bet considering the volume they sell. Whether or not they claim it as a legit business or an unregistered cash on the side business is irrelevant. My personal belief is that they should slide some cash to the owner of the site to help contribute to the costs. They may already be doing that but I am not privvy to the inner workings of the site 

But on the flip side we also have people here who contribute a heck of a lot but also sell stuff. I only buy from these people as a matter of personal choice.


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## snaggle (Feb 19, 2010)

I would also like to point out that it would be nice to see banner adds from Aquarium related stores in the GTA (and south Ontario) insted of addes from who ever Adds by google (or who ever it is) puts up.

I would also say that I am in the process of opening online store  followed by a brick and mortar later next year.

Even though I am 2 hours from the GTA I would advertise on this forum.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Some really good suggestions and lots of good inputs too.
I really like the post limit idea. If you limit things down to 3 "for sale" post per month and no more than 5 (maybe more) items per post (unless it's a package). It'll be a good starting point. We can increase that limit to 4 or 5 for the spring and fall months.
For vendors, obviously they can post as much as they want provided that we charge them a small fee by the post as advertisement. To help them along, we need to make sure they have a separate section dedicated for vendors (I think we already have that?) Locking the thread to prevent posting on the ads is also a very good idea too. This prevents disgruntle "instore" customers who wants some vengence online. The down side though is if the vendor was really good, there is no way to let every body know about it.

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## Scotmando (Jul 10, 2011)

You have a great variety of hobbyists with anywhere from 1 tank to, perhaps, 100 aquariums. 

Plants, fish, invertebrates grow, breed, propagate or clone. Equipment needs change. Better to sell off some surplus to cover some of the hydro bill than to toss away perfectly good livestock,plants or equipment. I think most of the prices on this site are well below any of the LFS's in most member's posts. To limit hobbyists from offering products for sale would be unfair for some serious enthusiasts with many tanks as opposed to the 1-5 tank people.

If you are actually a bricks & mortar &/or website LFS then I can see a small fee would be fair, maybe even a yearly 'special retail member' like the 'premium' membership you presently offer.

I think there's a fit for everybody on here.


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Some really good suggestions and lots of good inputs too.
> I really like the post limit idea. If you limit things down to 3 "for sale" post per month and no more than 5 (maybe more) items per post (unless it's a package). It'll be a good starting point. We can increase that limit to 4 or 5 for the spring and fall months.
> For vendors, obviously they can post as much as they want provided that we charge them a small fee by the post as advertisement. To help them along, we need to make sure they have a separate section dedicated for vendors (I think we already have that?) Locking the thread to prevent posting on the ads is also a very good idea too. This prevents disgruntle "instore" customers who wants some vengence online. The down side though is if the vendor was really good, there is no way to let every body know about it.


If post limit was implanted to GTAA, people will just channel off to other free posting site such as kijiji, craglist, and etc

Also, how can GTAA regulate how many items per post?

Eg. I can say I sell Crystal Red Shrimp SSS grade for $4 each, and I got a lot, is that count as 1 item or count as 5+ items?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

What exactly is the issue here? Are there too many "business" ads in the buy/sell section? Is GTAA looking for ways to get more income?

First define the problem, then work to find a solution.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

bigfishy said:


> If post limit was implanted to GTAA, people will just channel off to other free posting site such as kijiji, craglist, and etc
> 
> Also, how can GTAA regulate how many items per post?
> 
> Eg. I can say I sell Crystal Red Shrimp SSS grade for $4 each, and I got a lot, is that count as 1 item or count as 5+ items?


It counts as 0 because I will buy them all your SSS for $4. lol.


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