# Plants Stunted, I'm stumped



## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

I've got amazon swords and corkscrew val that aren't growing in my tank. Its been running for 6 months planted and the amazon swords used to grow like weeds.
vals never grew to begin with. There are other plants that are doing great in the tank.... I though the amazon swords alone would be pretty indestructible.

satellite LED on 10 hr split schedule
gravel subtrate with seachem flourite mixed in
weekly water changes
light bioload
tried tabs and excel for a solid 2 months with no improvement

any suggestions?


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Other than the tabs, what other ferts are you providing the plants?


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## default (May 28, 2011)

What size is the tank?


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## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

Its a 35 Gallon tall (18" deep). Ive been watching the plants and skimming forums for info based on how they looked etc., was dosing micro once a week after water changes and phosphorous (as an experiment) twice a week. all seachem products. 

I've looked into dry ferts but I wasn't sure if it was maintainable without doing co2 and dry ferts together. The tank itself has finally balanced out and algae issues etc have gone away(*knocks on wood*). Am I safe to assume the plants have eaten up the available nutrients in the substrate and I'm at the point where dosing ferts to the water column is the only way to get the ball rolling again? I'd like to keep it as low-tech as possible, I don't mind doing excel but is it enough to pair up with dry ferts?


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## Boreas (Dec 8, 2015)

Dry ferts don't mean you have to use CO2. I have a no CO2 tank and I dose around 1/4 of EI levels. You add as much fertilizer as you want, the best part is that you can change the amounts of each based on what you see.


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## cb1021 (Sep 21, 2009)

Thsi is very interesting issue. I had this same issue. I had a 125g 100% planted...Then suddenly, plants grew in a stunted way. No idea why.....Everything is growing very small and slow....I'm using aquasoil with pretty heavy bioload.....


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

I am also using Aquasoil and currently using full EI levels of macros and micros, and running Co2.

I also encounter stunting when my bio-load gets out of control. A good hacking and within a few days I can see the plants responding. I'm guessing with less bio-load there is less competition for ferts, light and my case Co2.

As for the OP's issues, I think your plants are missing nutrients. Swords are root feeds so root tabs will go a long way, specially in an inert substrate like gravel. Column ferts should also be used, either dry or liquid. I would not be going full EI if you are not using Co2, start low as mention 1/4 EI and experiment from there. As you have already found out with the stunting, plants will tell you when they are not happy and missing something. It's up to use to figure out what it is. In your case I would start with your ferts.

Has your lighting changed (photo period or high off the surface) at all since planting the Swords and Vals? Just ruling out lighting!

Added a picture of Limnophila Aromatica (99% sure). Note the stunting and the new top growth, this is one week after a major hacking. I removed a full grocery bag full of clippings from my 75 gal.



Included some full tank shots for reference left/center/right. Blyxa japonica on right side still needs to be thinned out (anyway what any of it?).


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Although the addition of water column nutrients *may* help, I don't think that's the main cause for the lack of growth. These species are mainly root feeders, if the use of tabs have not improved your situation, it may not be a simple deficiency.

Here are some questions that could help identify the problem:
- Is this Satellite Pro? Or is the standard model? (Pro's come with ramp timers)
- What is your GH and KH?

Could you also post some pictures of the setup and plants?

With low-tech tanks, you really don't need to dose EI or dry salts, having a surplus of nutrients in the water column doesn't really make sense - especially when it's majority root feeders. A good comprehensive mix or a conservative mix would be more than sufficient - which would be easier and simpler. You also need to be careful with Excel, Vallisneria sp. does not react well to Excel and is even known to destroy existing leaves.

If it is deficiency, you are likely lacking N and K, especially if you're lightly stocked. Getting some "Easier" and hardy stem plants would also help in identifying potential issues, since new grow is more frequent and deficiencies would show much quickly and be more apparent, some good species:
- Limnophila Sessiliflora
- Ludwigia Repens
- Hemianthus Micranthemoides
- Bacopa Caroliniana
- Hygrophila Polysperma
- Hygrophila Difformis
- and many more.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

If there are other plants in the tank that are doing well, it could be inter-species competition. A picture of the tank would help with assessment.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

default said:


> Although the addition of water column nutrients *may* help, I don't think that's the main cause for the lack of growth. These species are mainly root feeders, if the use of tabs have not improved your situation, it may not be a simple deficiency.
> 
> Here are some questions that could help identify the problem:
> - Is this Satellite Pro? Or is the standard model? (Pro's come with ramp timers)
> ...


Listen to this advice. default has a lot of experience and grows some pretty health plants.

What are your thoughts regarding the lighting default? To long of a photo period, maybe too little light (18" depth) if standard or too much if "pro"?

I run 2 6500K bulbs in my T5HO fixture on my 20" depth low tech tank (ran out of Co2 months ago) and have not column dosed since, only roots tabs and fish food and both my Vals and Swords grow quite well. When I was dosing the tank on a regular bases I had 30" plus Vals and Swords were trying to grow out of the surface.


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

slipfinger said:


> I also encounter stunting when my bio-load gets out of control. A good hacking and within a few days I can see the plants responding. I'm guessing with less bio-load there is less competition for ferts, light and my case Co2.


I was under the impression that bio-load referred to the fauna and not the flora in an aquarium. The load increasing the more fish you had.



slipfinger said:


> Added a picture of Limnophila Aromatica (99% sure). Note the stunting and the new top growth, this is one week after a major hacking.


I get this kind of stunting regularly. I've assumed it meant that the growth in the tank exceeded the nutrients being delivered and these plants were outcompeted. Like you, a whole tank trim seems to correct the issue for a while. One day I'll get the balance right


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

infolific said:


> I was under the impression that bio-load referred to the fauna and not the flora in an aquarium. The load increasing the more fish you had.


Maybe in some aquariums, but I'm plants and shrimp only. I have enough issues just growing plants, add fish to the equation and I'm doomed!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

slipfinger said:


> Maybe in some aquariums, but I'm plants and shrimp only. I have enough issues just growing plants, add fish to the equation and I'm doomed!


Not necessarily. I've done fish + plants and shrimp only + plants, and I've found that fish + plants was the easier of the two. With shrimp only, you have to supplement the tank with additional nutrients, something that is not necessary when you have fish. Furthermore, you get the option to keep a wider variety of algae eaters, which help keep algae down.


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## default (May 28, 2011)

slipfinger said:


> Listen to this advice. default has a lot of experience and grows some pretty health plants.
> 
> What are your thoughts regarding the lighting default? To long of a photo period, maybe too little light (18" depth) if standard or too much if "pro"?
> 
> I run 2 6500K bulbs in my T5HO fixture on my 20" depth low tech tank (ran out of Co2 months ago) and have not column dosed since, only roots tabs and fish food and both my Vals and Swords grow quite well. When I was dosing the tank on a regular bases I had 30" plus Vals and Swords were trying to grow out of the surface.


Thanks for the kind words! 

I originally considered low lighting was the problem, especially if it's the non Pro model of Satellite, but 10 hour photoperiod is a little more than I personally like, but I don't think it's an issue in this tank.
Until we see a picture it's hard to guess, but both species the OP listed can be grown in just about any parameter, including really low light levels, so I doubt the lighting is causing the problem.

Something in the tank may be causing the stall, or it could even be a nutrient overdose (e.g Mg?), but that wouldn't make much sense either unless the levels were insane, especially since Vallisneria sp. are capable of growing in hard water. So KH and GH readings can really help here.

I would however, advise large(r) water changes for the time being, but before I recommend any set amount, it would depend on the parameters out of the tap, is it hard? Softened? Use of RO? Well water? Etc.


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## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

So here is my setup. I live in Innisfil/Barrie area so the water is pretty hard. As you can see the tank isn't hurting by any means, the background along the entire right side is vals and amazon swords.

The big rock on the right could be an issue but I've even gone so far as to push my light fixture to the back of the tank to make sure it doesn't get shadowed at all.

My lights are on a timer, they used to run from 12pm - 10pm straight. I was running into algae problems and have since split the photo period to a 7am-12pm, 4-10pm.. algae issues have disappeared.. 
are swords and vals high light plants? did putting them in the back of the tank doom them?


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## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

And light fixture is not a Pro model. Just the satellite freshwater LED +


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## default (May 28, 2011)

How are the rest of the plants growing? Especially the stem plants in the front?


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Did you see any change to the growth of the plants with the change in photo period, straight time to split time?

What about flow in your tank? I notice your spray bar is pointing back to front and your power head is pointing left to right. 

Just throwing this out there, but maybe try putting your spray bar on the left side along the surface and power head of the right side aiming downish. This will cause the water to flow in a circular pattern.

Not my picture just a random off the net for reference.

On another note, make sure to only try one change at a time. Give time for the changes to have an effect. Trying to much at once really will not tell you what the actual issue was/is.


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## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

The green stuff bottom left was mixed in with something else I bought. It was slow to start but has really taken off. Crypts are slow to grow but leaves and such are doing well. I'll try rearranging the flow and report back in a few weeks. Thanks for the suggestions!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

AdamH said:


> The green stuff bottom left was mixed in with something else I bought. It was slow to start but has really taken off. Crypts are slow to grow but leaves and such are doing well. I'll try rearranging the flow and report back in a few weeks. Thanks for the suggestions!


The green stuff are pearl weed, and they grow really fast under the right conditions. If you trim them low, they will turn into a carpet.

Looking at your tank, my feeling is that there is a nutrient deficiency in the substrate. You said that you use root tabs, but I believe root tabs only provide micronutrients.

The fact that your swords and vals are suffering while your crypts (slow growers) and pearl weed are taking off tells me that you might not have enough NPK in your tank.

What is your nitrate level?


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## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

nitrates are somewhere close to zero (according to API test strips) 
since I have them out..
PH 6.5
KH 80ppm
GH 180ppm

By no means am I an expert at this but my personal guess is that my gravel substrate has run out of what little nutrients were in it. Solarz I think you are right in that tabs only provide micro's. With that being said, how does one fertilize a root feeder?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

AdamH said:


> nitrates are somewhere close to zero (according to API test strips)
> since I have them out..
> PH 6.5
> KH 80ppm
> ...


You can try some jobe sticks. Break one stick into 3 pieces and bury them around the swords.

Or, you can get more fish.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Osmocote Plus in gel caps is also an option.






Problem is it is not available in Canada and as you see over the top expensive on Amazon. I paid under $10US for a bottle.

If you'd like to try some PM me. I have more than I will ever need.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

One consideration with Amazon swords that stop growing, is that they have produced a bulb at the base between the roots. If you remove the bulb, they start growing again. The bulb can be planted to get another or several new plants.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Any updates on the changes you made and how the swords responded?


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## AdamH (Dec 3, 2016)

Yes! So I started out with root tabs for Vals and swords to see if there was a nutrient deficiency (Vals are root feeders?) I also added some more fish to the tank to see if I could get nitrates up a bit. My swords and Val's have started growing again (slowly) but they still don't look healthy. Ill post a pic when I get home. I think something is still missing


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