# How do our plants and fish get here?



## RuggedChild (Aug 29, 2007)

Hi All,

The title is a bit vague and perhaps misleading, so I will elaborate on my question here; With respect to the majority of plants and animals that are imported to North America from Asia, and South /Central America, what is the process from them being collected in their countries of origin to when they end up in our LFS? Who are the players involved? And what licenses or permits do they need to get their goods out of their countries of origin and into the countries where they are being sold?

Looking forward to your responses.

P.s. 

I think my question originally posted above implies that all specimens are wild caught which is far from true. So if possible please also consider farmed specimens in your response as well

Thanks,
Rick


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

It generally looks like this but again the question is too vague and really all depends on the species of fish or plant since some things can be bred or grown in captivity where as others cannot.

Native Collector - International Wholesaler/Distributor/Breeder/Fish Farms/Plant Farms - National/Provincial Wholesaler/Distributor - LFS - Our hands. 

Keep in mind if the LFS knows an international wholesaler there is no need to buy from the national/provinical/local wholesalers unless the price is cheaper.

For plants to bring them into the country you need an import/export license and then the phytosanitary certificate. For fish I'm not too sure which certificates you need but I'd imagine something similar to the phytosanitary certificate.


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## RuggedChild (Aug 29, 2007)

PlantMan,

Thanks for your knowledgeable response. I really appreciate how helpful you have been with both supplying plants and sharing information with me. The reason why my questions are vague is because I am trying to see how I can somehow get my foot in the door of the aquarium hobby industry; and I really don't know what's out there. I do have a full-time career, but it would be nice to be able to make a little spare change by doing something I am passionate about. Even just being able to network with professionals and help to promote the hobby would be fun.


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

RuggedChild said:


> PlantMan,
> 
> Thanks for your knowledgeable response. I really appreciate how helpful you have been with both supplying plants and sharing information with me. The reason why my questions are vague is because I am trying to see how I can somehow get my foot in the door of the aquarium hobby industry; and I really don't know what's out there. I do have a full-time career, but it would be nice to be able to make a little spare change by doing something I am passionate about. Even just being able to network with professionals and help to promote the hobby would be fun.


No problem, if I can save you some time googling things then I've done well  lol. Based on your question/response it sounds like you possibly want to start a fish/plant room to make some extra profit, keep in mind this can be achieved without having to start a business. Most international wholesalers have minimums we just simply cannot meet either, which is why most LFS (NOT ALL) split their orders with other LFS; Oriental Aquarium Pte as an example has a crazy minimum like 25KG, that is an unreal amount of plants and driftwood for one store.

Most guys will buy plants and then grow them out to sell in grow tanks and some do the same with fish, acquire them and then breed them for profit.

I'd suggest joining your local fish club in order to network with other hobbyist and get your foot in the right places.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

One thing to be aware of when thinking of importing anything living, is whether or not it is listed on CITES, and if so, which list. This is intended to help protect endangered or threatened species, by preventing trade in those considered too at risk. Some species cannot be legally traded or imported at all. In some cases, you have to be able to prove stock came from captive bred sources, rather than wild collected. It can be quite a pain.

You can't always rely on any given supplier knowing all the rules, or perhaps even caring about them. But Border Services certainly will care, and the fines can be pretty punitive, and your goods are seized.

And there can be other obstacles too. I wanted to import something called a Dero worm from a lab that supplies schools and such, in the US. Tiny aquatic worm, used to feed fish.

I was first informed by the lab that US Fish and Wildlife would have to inspect any shipment of them first, for a fee of nearly $200. USD, before they would even consider shipping them to Canada, which made them ridiculously costly.

Took me more than a week of phone calls to find out if they are legal to import to Canada, first off [ they are]. Took another two weeks of exchanging email with US Fish and Wildlife to learn they consider Dero worms from a lab to be farmed, and thus not subject to that inspection requirement. Had they been wild collected, they WOULD have been subject to the fee.

Then I had to send all my correspondence with both countries to the supplier and their Canadian agent, so they could confirm my findings, before they were willing to ship it to me without imposing this fee. Dero worms are native to the North American continent, for heaven's sake. So you really have to do your homework when it comes to importing living things, particularly if you want to specialize in the less common or exotic.


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## RuggedChild (Aug 29, 2007)

Fishfur,

Thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like the process makes the responsibility of research and correspondence fall on the importer. Also it sounds like a great deal of work. It makes me wonder how someone who owns a local wholesale distribution center establish their business in the first place. Btw are you breeding those worms now?



Fishfur said:


> One thing to be aware of when thinking of importing anything living, is whether or not it is listed on CITES, and if so, which list. This is intended to help protect endangered or threatened species, by preventing trade in those considered too at risk. Some species cannot be legally traded or imported at all. In some cases, you have to be able to prove stock came from captive bred sources, rather than wild collected. It can be quite a pain.
> 
> You can't always rely on any given supplier knowing all the rules, or perhaps even caring about them. But Border Services certainly will care, and the fines can be pretty punitive, and your goods are seized.
> 
> ...


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the importer to ensure that it is legal to import whatever it is he wants to bring in & that all rules and regs are followed. The only responsibility an exporter would have would be to ensure they not exporting anything that is illegal to export from their location. This I learned in the course of trying to import my worms, from the various people I spoke to at Border Services and a number of other entities.

And the worms I worked so hard to get proved harder to culture than I had hoped. I have some but not nearly enough to use as a food source yet. I'd like to get more of them. The info I could find online on how to culture them didn't work so well for me.. but sometimes it can take awhile to acquire the knack for keeping some species alive and well.

There are bound to be a certain number of large fish farms & plant nurseries, along with many smaller ones, who supply the aquarium trade, and I would not know who most of them are, though I'm aware of Tropica, a big plant outfit, for example. And the Net has made it possible for many to sell to almost anyone, so long as they will pay the costs for the needed paperwork and shipping. To bring plants in, you need a phytosanitary certificate. If the plants are from the USA, it has to be a Federal Phyto, not a State level one. I learned that the hard way myself, sigh. Import permits for animals would be fairly similar, just different officials.

I used to be a commercial sales rep', and worked for several wholesalers. So my clients were the retail stores who in turn sold the goods to the public. I often wonder how the Internet must have changed the way things are done today, but one of the tasks I had, [ this was more than 30 years ago] was to vet potential new accounts; to see them in person, lay eyes on the sort of business model they had in mind. I recall I had to tell one home office to refuse a couple of new account leads, as it was painfully clear when I went to see them, that they were simply seeking a way to buy gear wholesale, solely for their own use. I suspect the Net has made quite a difference in that area.

Granted, I wasn't selling fish or aquarium stuff; I sold gear for horses and riders, but sales are sales, pretty much.

I'd assume it's a little different if you propose to become a wholesaler or a plant or fish breeder. In some ways, starting up as a small business today is much easier, possibly even cheaper, thanks to the Internet, but even so, you'll be competing for sales against others already established and not necessarily in a local market. Pursuing sales can suck up a lot of time, even with the Internet doing some of the work. Maintaining a commercial online site is itself pretty time consuming.


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## bluegularis (May 12, 2010)

Like everything in the world do your research first.
Check out how many competitors you will have - in Toronto there are 4-5 importers from Asia, In montreal there are 1-2, in Vancouver they probably have several also. The chains like big Als do there own importing from Florida.

Then check out who you are going to sell to, ma & pa shops ( could have collection issues, order small quantities, low turn over) - chain stores are linked to wholesalers and suppliers, their fish suppliers will cut them off if they go outside of the norm which includes them, you also need to be able to supply these stores on a weekly basis, may 200-500 angelfish per week etc, and this has to be constant. 

The the next consideration your suppliers - lets use Asia as an example, no-one will talk to you unless you place continuous orders, eg those 200-500 angels per week, 80% of the cost from Asia if not more is freight which is a guess at $120/box. To make the freight more lucrative you need to order a container load this is 53 boxes at $120/box. You need to pay the fish usually in advance when starting (COD only), so you are talking an outlay of $10-15, 000 for a shipment, now this is the winter and your shipment is delayed 1-2 days and 1/2 the fish arrive dead, try getting the money back.

Then you need to sell the fish to the stores, you need to have tanks for acclimation and storage and utility bills to go with it. Warehouse, staff etc., you probably need to sell 20- 30,000 a month just to break even.

Then there are the import permits and restrictions etc to deal with.
Don't try bringing in snakeheads from asia or glo-fish from the US.

If you are going to do this as a hobby open a fish room and sell some fish to your local LFS. If you want to do it as a business it is full time and will cost you to make money. That is why the fish in your LFS are pricey.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Even harder than I thought it was likely to be, unless you're doing it solely as a hobby.


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## RuggedChild (Aug 29, 2007)

Nothing like a dose of reality to set you straight  The Feedback on this site is amazing. Thanks Everyone! If there are any wholesalers here that are following this thread and are willing to give me a tour of their facility (purely for educational purposes) please shoot me a quick pm.

Thanks!


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Keep in mind that mark up at retail is in the 300% to 700% range. That may give you some idea of how cheap your stock is to even be bought by a retailer.


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