# Questions ....



## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

OK I have been through this many times ...
hoj ..maybe you can help me out here ?
When I got the set -up ,I did get hydroponic ferts with it and I also have a bottle of excel ferts .
Now it was my understanding that excel and hydro had everything I needed To now find it dont !
Im sure I have asked b4 but I am just not getting it .
I have my hands full and tried to search this forum manually as my search feature does not work for some unknown reason .
So for those of you who arent sick of answering these questions again please help !
keeping in mind I have zebrs in the planted tank!

40/GL (43.5 gl actually)Co2/6 watts p/gl I believe 

Thanks ....... Im really thinking maybe just scrap the planted and go salt if I cant get it ....Salt is way easier for me !


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

Uhhh... I guess I missed a related post. How did you find out they don't have everything you needed? Is there a problem with your plants?



blossom112 said:


> OK I have been through this many times ...
> hoj ..maybe you can help me out here ?
> When I got the set -up ,I did get hydroponic ferts with it and I also have a bottle of excel ferts .
> Now it was my understanding that excel and hydro had everything I needed To now find it dont !
> ...


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Read this article and understand it!

http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/

Once you have that one down, read the ones here:

http://www.aquatic-plants.org/articles/basics/pages/index.html

Also, I wouldn't treat a tank with zebras as a tank to experiment with salts and fertilizers and shit. They are endangered and should be treated as such.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Excel is not really a fertilizer, per se. It is more of an alternative to CO2, as it is a liquid supplement that tries to meet the carbon needs of plants.

I'm not sure what hydroponic fertilizers you got from hojimoe, so I can't comment on that.

I suggest that you read this article I typed up awhile back, and especially reading up on the nutrient section first.

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3771

Hope that helps,

Edit:



Chris S said:


> Also, I wouldn't treat a tank with zebras as a tank to experiment with salts and fertilizers. They are endangered and should be treated as such.


I also agree with this.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

The reason you won't find an all in one fertilizer solution is that the different (dry or liquid) nutrients don't mix well/properly together.

To properly fertilize, you will typically be adding 4 (sometimes 3) seperate things.

1. Micros
2. Nitrogen
3. Phosphate
4. Potassium


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## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

I posted on another site and I was informed ,that not only is it wrong to use tank water in my Co2 checker but that I am new (at planted)so I am probably not fertilizing properly .

And yes there are some things that shouldnt be happening ....lmy anibus that was big and thriving ....just melted away ...the stem still looks fine but all leaves are gone .
Some plants are drooping not a big droop but enough to worry me !


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## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

Chris S said:


> Read this article and understand it!
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/
> 
> ...


That was EXACTLY what went through my mind !!!!!!!
No need for the potty mouth !!!


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## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes ... i have the excel comprehensive plant suppliment as well as excel for Co2....
Thanks I shall be doing the reading after dinner .


Not only do I know they are on the endangered list but thats a lot of cash I forked over for 6 of them(like 2k)!!!! and would never just add stuff without looking into it .

I may be looking into a tank for the zebras without planted very soon!


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris S said:


> The reason you won't find an all in one fertilizer solution is that the different (dry or liquid) nutrients don't mix well/properly together.
> 
> To properly fertilize, you will typically be adding 4 (sometimes 3) seperate things.
> 
> ...


Not entirely true. You can get it down to two solutions only: macros and micros. The only reason you need to dose them separately is that the iron in the micronutrients/trace mix has the potential to react with the phosphate in the potassium dihydrogen phosphate, forming an insoluble precipitate (a solid). In this form, the iron cannot be used by plants (as they much prefer it in the chelated form).



blossom112 said:


> I posted on another site and I was informed ,that not only is it wrong to use tank water in my Co2 checker but that I am new (at planted)so I am probably not fertilizing properly .


Indeed, it is wrong to use tank water in your CO2 checker because there are dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) that can affect the kH reading of your tank. This is why a reference 4 dkH solution should be used, rather than tank water.

Shameless plug on my DIY CO2 drop checker as well as how to prepare a 4 dkH reference solution:

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6738

If you need more information, I am more than willing to provide the calculations/math/science behind all of this 



blossom112 said:


> Yes ... i have the excel comprehensive plant suppliment as well as excel for Co2....


As I mentioned earlier, Flourish Excel is a CO2 alternative (which in reality, is not as effective as CO2 itself). Flourish comprehensive plant supplement (not Excel comprehensive plant supplement, as you have mentioned) covers the micronutrients that you must supply to your plants, but not your macros.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> Not entirely true. You can get it down to two solutions only: macros and micros. The only reason you need to dose them separately is that the iron in the micronutrients/trace mix has the potential to react with the phosphate in the potassium dihydrogen phosphate, forming an insoluble precipitate (a solid). In this form, the iron cannot be used by plants (as they much prefer it in the chelated form).


I haven't seen anything on the market as of yet, you?


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## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

Great thread DarkBlade!!!!!!

from your post on nutrients , I can get everything i need with Seachem products ....
Great to know ... so in conjunction with ferts and testing we can get the proper levels ....Well that was easy to follow 
TYVM ... I shall do that this week and check out Seachem for my macro and be sure to have proper testing kits!

So it would be safe for the zebras following those instructions then?

still reading your stuff ! will be at it for hours and taking notes!!!!


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris S said:


> I haven't seen anything on the market as of yet, you?


Aha, this is of course, because companies want to make money, so they will offer each nutrient to you separately to try and make as much money as possible.

If you are to mix your own fertilizers, it is possible to mix the macros into one bottle, and the micronutrients into another bottle to minimize the number of bottles/number of liquids you need to add, etc.



blossom112 said:


> from your post on nutrients , I can get everything i need with Seachem products ....
> Great to know ... so in conjunction with ferts and testing we can get the proper levels ....Well that was easy to follow
> TYVM ... I shall do that this week and check out Seachem for my macro and be sure to have proper testing kits!
> 
> So it would be safe for the zebras following those instructions then?


While you can get everything you need with Seachem products, it's a lot cheaper to buy your own fertilizers and mix them yourself (if you don't mind the small hassle of mixing them up yourself). In the long run, it is definitely more economical than buying commercially available fertilizers. Also note that there are different methods of fertilizing, i.e. Tom Barr's EI dosing method, Edward's (over at APC) PPS-Pro dosing method, as well as (Diana) Walstad's "All natural" approach.

In terms of testing, you really will only need to test for nitrogen (in the form of nitrates) and phosphorus (in the form of phosphates). Other test kits for nutrients may be prohibitively expensive (i.e. such as potassium), or are simply not commercially available (i.e. sulfur).


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## blossom112 (Mar 19, 2008)

LOL you make so much 4dkh solution ...do you sell it ?
I have been looking like crazy to buy it !

For now I think I will just buy what i need , in the future when I have less projects ,then i can try the dry .. and maybe with a lesson from you ! lol


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

blossom112 said:


> LOL you make so much 4dkh solution ...do you sell it ?
> I have been looking like crazy to buy it !


That was my first foray into making the 4 dkH solution. It was accurate, but I wanted to be even more precise (i.e. less room for error), so I ended up making a stock reference solution using lab grade reagents and lab equipment 

Yes, I used to sell it, but I am currently out of country on a work contract, so for those that are interested, you will have to wait until I'm back in town 



blossom112 said:


> For now I think I will just buy what i need , in the future when I have less projects ,then i can try the dry .. and maybe with a lesson from you ! lol


This thread is a bit old, but I gave Tabitha a lot of hints and tips for mixing/dosing fertilizers. It's a (very) long read, but gives an exhaustive explanation as to what is going on when you dose fertilizers, etc.

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3133

Hope that helps,


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> Aha, this is of course, because companies want to make money, so they will offer each nutrient to you separately to try and make as much money as possible.
> 
> If you are to mix your own fertilizers, it is possible to mix the macros into one bottle, and the micronutrients into another bottle to minimize the number of bottles/number of liquids you need to add, etc.


At the same time, it doesn't make sense to really, as the levels fluctuate so frequently that you are always dosing different variations of npk. Making one mix of it all is assuming there is always the same demand for it in the water column - usually that means the algae is happy!

I think, to be honest, companies would be happy to make an all-in-one fertilizer (when it comes to fish keeping, everyone is always looking for the magical over-the-counter answer to all their problems)- there must be some reason there isn't anything available like that - some science-like reason that I, however, don't know.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris S said:


> At the same time, it doesn't make sense to really, as the levels fluctuate so frequently that you are always dosing different variations of npk. Making one mix of it all is assuming there is always the same demand for it in the water column - usually that means the algae is happy


Actually, the basis of EI dosing is that you just continuously dose (more than) enough for the plants to use, and reset at the end of every week to prevent algae from taking advantage of the excess nutrients.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Darkblade48 said:


> Actually, the basis of EI dosing is that you just continuously dose (more than) enough for the plants to use, and reset at the end of every week to prevent algae from taking advantage of the excess nutrients.


Yea, I guess the fact I don't use EI anymore shows, eh?


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