# LED for a Fluval Osaka 41G 24x18x24 ?



## Steel_Wind

So I am about to grab Kamal's 41g Fluval Osaka (nee teemee's tank) and I am looking to light this thing.

The dimensions on this are 24W x 24H x 18D

It looks like this, (this is another member's 41g Osaka, but it demonstrates the dimensions well)










I am _very_ sure that I want to go LED and I would prefer a multipurpose lamp capable of supporting all corals. Given a preference, I am all for a significant blue look to the tank as well. I'd rather show off the coral and rock than the fish, all things being equal.

The problem here is that the dimensions of the Osaka are a little odd.

What ready made LED fixture(s) should I be looking at here? I'm willing to pay top dollar for quality that I need, but I would rather not pay top dollar for quality that I don't need. One fixture or two? And which?

Advice folks?


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## tom g

*suggestions*

what kind of tank are u planning on putting togeather ... freshwater or salt ..
what do u plan on keeping in the tank .


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## Steel_Wind

I'm posting in marine, so yes, SW.

A variety of softies, LPS and SPS coral - with 4-6 fish and a modest clean up crew.


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## jmb

Based of your dimensions FragBox sells full spectrum LEDs. They use the same ones on their tanks too. I think two would probably do the job nicely, maybe three if you need the intensity if you go with lots of SPS.


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## jmb

Just noticed you mentioned about top dollar...

In that case Aqua Illumination is coming out with a new model Hydra 52. It is packed full of features, controllable and it has a new puck mix that provides better spectrum and coverage. You should take a look and with this one you would only need one. 

HTH..have fun with the build!


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## Steel_Wind

Any opinions on the Kessil A360W Tuna Blue? The Wide version of the light would seem to cover the tank nicely with 24" footprint and I rather like the look of the pendant fixture on gooseneck from what I can see of it on Youtube. It's a modernist design which meshes nicely with the Osaka tank and stand.










Pics and "live-in-concert" experience are two different matters though. Not too many people go on Youtube and say "I did not spend my money wisely" -- unless the product outright _*sucked*_.

My concern on the AI lights was that the footprint coverage of one light made me wonder whether I could get away with just one. That was my main issue with a Vega or Hydra. The mounting orientation also looked like I would have to mount their bar from the side of the tank instead of the rear, which was a definite mark against it (mind you, a ceiling mount with wire is possible - I'd just rather not.)


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## jmb

I think the kessils look nice as well, but for the price and quality you should check fragbox.ca out. They are an active member on the forum. They have goose necks available for them too. I have seen their lights in person and the colouring is very nice. They also have there light with different angles available.


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## Steel_Wind

jmb said:


> I think the kessils look nice as well, but for the price and quality you should check fragbox.ca out. They are an active member on the forum. They have goose necks available for them too. I have seen their lights in person and the colouring is very nice. They also have there light with different angles available.


I think Kamal was using two of their Halo Par 38s on the tank when he had it set up. I may be wrong. Are these the Halos in action over the Osaka 155?


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## altcharacter

I sold him my CurrentUSA T5HOx2 with a side LED strip that had 8 Cree XP-G's. I had that setup on my tank and it did amazing but as for pure LED's I would go with something like the AI sol as well since you can hook it up to a reefkeeper


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## sig

there is much more about LED than how they will look on the Osaka tank. try to read which LED will handle softies LPS and SPS corals. 
you should also consider that running a lot of blue will make your corals glow, but all fishes will be black.

Try to read on Reef Central to get some opinions. There are many threads about different LEDs

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## Steel_Wind

sig said:


> there is much more about LED than how they will look on the Osaka tank. try to read which LED will handle softies LPS and SPS corals.
> you should also consider that running a lot of blue will make your corals glow, but all fishes will be black.
> 
> Try to read on Reef Central to get some opinions. There are many threads about different LEDs


I have done so. That's one of the reasons that I was pointed to the Kessil.

Problem is, the opinions on Reef Central are 90% noise to 10% signal, at best - and almost nobody addresses the issue of light footprint, which on a tank like the Osaka 41g/155l might be a real issue.

I'm actually okay with the blue fluorescent coral / black fish trade off. What I am concerned with on the Kessil was a review on BRS which suggested the older 350W model and the 360 as of March was not fully controllable through an Apex. I don't know how up to date that information is.

The Apex was featured on Tanked last night and Neptune's forums are still down from the hit they took after the show aired. I may have to wait a while before I can log in and get opinions on how the lights react with that controller.


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## teemee

If you want leds, i would definitely do par38s from fragbox/lightbox.
March also sells a 2 lamp fixture that fits well on a rimless tank.
That's what I'm using for my 30g tall right now.


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## sig

Steel_Wind said:


> I have done so. That's one of the reasons that I was pointed to the Kessil.
> 
> Problem is, the opinions on Reef Central are 90% noise to 10% signal, at best - and almost nobody addresses the issue of light footprint, which on a tank like the Osaka 41g/155l might be a real issue.
> 
> I'm actually okay with the blue fluorescent coral / black fish trade off. What I am concerned with on the Kessil was a review on BRS which suggested the older 350W model and the 360 as of March was not fully controllable through an Apex. I don't know how up to date that information is.
> 
> The Apex was featured on Tanked last night and Neptune's forums are still down from the hit they took after the show aired. I may have to wait a while before I can log in and get opinions on how the lights react with that controller.


many People here got LED, but went back to t5s. I running now 2 bulbs 24"Aquatic Life with ATI Blue + and New generation on 24x16x16

Could not be happier

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## Steel_Wind

teemee said:


> If you want leds, i would definitely do par38s from fragbox/lightbox.
> March also sells a 2 lamp fixture that fits well on a rimless tank.
> That's what I'm using for my 30g tall right now.


I'm sorry teemee, but I do not get the meaning of the statement:

*"March also sells a 2 lamp fixture that fits well on a rimless tank"
*
Who's March and what fixture are you referring to? I'm happy to go look, but where should I go to do that?

Do you mean this one?









Also, at a minimum, I think I will want to add a Reefkeeper Lite (or Apex Lite) to this setup to control temperature and lighting.

Are these Par 38s lights you and jmb have referred to dimmable? Can I use a RKL + controller to kludge some dawn/noon/dusk/moonlit phase with those bulbs -- or some other fixture?


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## sig

this is a Marcello

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48447

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## tom g

*led*

just a thought not sure what your budget is , u can look into the Chinese leds on reef central u would need one of them to cover your tank . 175 for dual led non controllable or u could go with controller for I think 250...
I have 2 over my 90 right now .I bought the non controller ones.
cheers 
tom


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## Steel_Wind

I will have a look at the controllable version for sure. How do you find the Chinese LED you have and how long have you had it?

I can spring for a Vertex or AI Vega if I need to. But "need" is a Big Word :-D

I certainly do appreciate the suggestions I have received so far -- including your steadfast support of T5HOs too, Sig. I have metal halides and 54w Power Compact lighrs with AH Supply's reflectors too, so it is not that I am inherently hostile to older tech.

That said, it seems that the LED tech has matured to the point where their performance and reliability equals older tech. The only question is whether the upfront cost is so high that it outweighs the benefits it brings.

The lightbox lamps are damned atrractive on a costs basis, I must admit. Is the lack of controllability (at least I assume they cannot be controlled by an Apex or RKE) that big a deal? What does anybody who is using them now think in terms of that issue?


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## altcharacter

The idea of adjusting LED's is pretty sexy since T5's won't do it of course and only 80 year old reefers use MH's 

The ones march sells are by far amazing and worth the price but I don't think they are adjustable. Worst case scenario you buy them and sell them off later for a different model.


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## Steel_Wind

altcharacter said:


> The idea of adjusting LED's is pretty sexy since T5's won't do it of course and only 80 year old reefers use MH's
> 
> The ones march sells are by far amazing and worth the price but I don't think they are adjustable. Worst case scenario you buy them and sell them off later for a different model.


Fair enough.

on a different subject altcharacter, I think I saw reference to your running a ReefKeeper Lite.

At risk of forking this thread beyond recovery, 

 which model and modules did you buy?
 where did you get it from?
 any regrets on getting a RKL instead of an Apex?
 any modules you would or would not recommend for it?


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## altcharacter

I bought my ReefKeeper Lite from Flavio at Advance Reef Aquatics out in Milton even though I live in Scarborough. I think you will find that alot of people will say he is by far the best LFS around, especially for buying something like a skimmer or pump. I would highly suggest giving him a call and talking to him even if it's just about the differences between models.

The Lite really just does what you need for a smaller aquarium. Heater, lights, temp control, and ATO. If you go up a notch and get the ReefKeeper Elite you would be looking at more options like salinity probe, PH probe, wavemaker control, and the ability to control AI sol's and vega's. Then you can even go up a step from there and get the ReefKeeper Elite Net edition so you can manage all your stuff from your phone or computer anywhere in the world 

Really the Apex and DA Reefkeeper are fairly even when it comes to control but they vary in the types of companies they are compatible with. The RKL and RKE are compatible with AI sol's and vegas while the Apex is compatible with EcoTech radion's and MP10's and MP40 wavemakers.

I'm pretty sure someone will chime in on the differences more than me since I really only own a RKL but this is a good start to what you might want to know.

Either way, I think a controller is a must once you get to a certain level of reefing and lazyness


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## kamal

I would say a combination is best  t5 and led. I found some corals do way better under t5 than under led and vice versa. I kept zoa's hammers, frogspawn, mushrooms and gsp fine under just the 2 full spectrum par38's  plus the colour for fish and corals alike was amazing.


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## Steel_Wind

Well, what do you guys think about one of the Evergrow 16" LEDs and 2x55w PL-L power compact with 2x Actinics in AHSupply Reflectors in a custom canopy over the tank?

Exterior shot would look like this:










The AHSupply reflectors are kick-ass by the way. It produces essentially the equivalent of 6x24w T5HOs.


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## tom g

*leds*

I would personally try one and go from there , my neighbours think I have a grow op going in the bedroom ....


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## kamal

I would stay away from power compacts...I think they are more expensive at replacement

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## altcharacter

What kam said. PC is a dead type of lighting


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## Steel_Wind

altcharacter said:


> What kam said. PC is a dead type of lighting


Uhm,* no*.

There's nothing "dead" about PLL lights (only in the aquarium hobby are they called "power compacts"). Outside of the aquarium world, the 4 pin PLL lamp is_ kicking the crap_ out of T5HOs.

A PLL lamp is, after all, a T5 bent back on itself. That's it; that's all.

If T5's are still rocking, so are "PCs". The lamps are expensive in the higher colour range to replace at retail because distribution on them is still fairly low, but a PLL lamp still delivers twice the light over half the distance of _any_ comparable T5. 10k 55w PLL lamps are about $20 online to replace, the same cost as an ATI 24w T5. That's twice the light for the same price. You can get an actinic 55w PLL for about $25.

The problem with PLLs is that they are not that long and, above all, good reflectors are hard to find for them - though I happen to have two which I have not installed yet. So I may use them here.

In a hobby where the drive is to 3' 4' and 6' tanks, the PLL lamp is difficult to deploy. But on a 2' wide tank? It's the _perfect_ width for that lamp.


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## altcharacter

You can't compare an ATI bulb with a $20 "online" bulb. 
I have bought quite a few bulbs in my time and there is definitely a difference between the higher end bulbs and lower end bulbs.

As for PC, they are dead as is MH. There are a few people out there that still use MH because they get good growth and it's what they have but times have changed and people don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on hydro bills and changing bulbs.

If PC or PLL isn't dead, show me a few amazing tanks that are using them!!

And even in the commercial industry PC and PLL is dead. If you look at every Shell gas station they have changed to LED. As with alot of other businesses.


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## tom g

*lighting*

I think it has to be about what u want to spend ....if u have the lights use them till u get some research on what u want to do or what light set up u want there are lots out there .also depending on what u want to grow in your tank .the good thing about your footprint is there is lots avail for lighting and u don't need six of them .head to Canada corals ,chk out there lighting .I know reef boutique has a maxpect on a tank and a eco radion I think u may want to call colin and ask him . if u are a techie then u may want to look at that side ,some pretty wild stuff u can do with that lighting and again u will only need one . as for me I am a joe reefer and its all about money /looks 
my evergrow lights are perfect for me , not controllable but doing the job ,I wish I could of put a controllable unit on but the best for me was 2 16s.
so we can talk till we are blue in the face ,put the fixtures on that u have , start a spreadhseet and research what u want .u have a sexy looking tank 
and after a long day at work its a awesome feeling coming home and chk ing it out .I know myself I spend way too much time looking in my tank .lol
cheers 
tom


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## conix67

Steel_Wind said:


> Uhm,* no*.
> 
> There's nothing "dead" about PLL lights (only in the aquarium hobby are they called "power compacts"). Outside of the aquarium world, the 4 pin PLL lamp is_ kicking the crap_ out of T5HOs.
> 
> A PLL lamp is, after all, a T5 bent back on itself. That's it; that's all.
> 
> If T5's are still rocking, so are "PCs". The lamps are expensive in the higher colour range to replace at retail because distribution on them is still fairly low, but a PLL lamp still delivers twice the light over half the distance of _any_ comparable T5. 10k 55w PLL lamps are about $20 online to replace, the same cost as an ATI 24w T5. That's twice the light for the same price. You can get an actinic 55w PLL for about $25.
> 
> The problem with PLLs is that they are not that long and, above all, good reflectors are hard to find for them - though I happen to have two which I have not installed yet. So I may use them here.
> 
> In a hobby where the drive is to 3' 4' and 6' tanks, the PLL lamp is difficult to deploy. But on a 2' wide tank? It's the _perfect_ width for that lamp.


Whether you believe it or not, PCs are dead in reef world. You said "PCs deliver twice the light over half the distance" is very inaccurate - as you said, PCs are T5s bent in the middle, so it delivers comparable T5's light output of the same length overall, and it delivers twice the light over the *same* distance, roughly speaking.

The problem with PCs are efficiency. Do you ever see T5HO reflectors covering multiple bulbs in high end fixtures? This is physically impossible on PCs thus lower efficiency. You cannot overcome this physical limitations.


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## Steel_Wind

tom g said:


> the good thing about your footprint is there is lots avail for lighting and u don't need six of them


Six ! Yikes. I'd have to add a chiller then (I have a 1/4 HP though!).

No, I'm just saying that with those reflectors, you get a 160% plus light gain, so TWO 54w PC lights end up delivering the same light over that area as six 24w T5s. Add a 16" Chinese LED in the middle between the two reflectors and for those suggesting a mix of T5 and LED is best -- then you have exactly that.

Of course, you may also end up having way too much damned light in your tank, too.

I'll give it some thought. It looks like the Kessil 360w is controllable by either the RKL+ALC or the Apex+VDM, so I'm a little torn.

And yes, the lightbox lamps seems to be the most cost-effective lamp option available. *sigh*

Happily, I do not have to decide right now. I'll mull it over and see what the next month brings as I plan the rest of my gear and see what the overall budget allows. As I am leaning towards getting a controller, the higher end LED seems the most attractive, but ... we'll see.


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## tom g

*leds*

keep in mind that I ran t5s huge heat , my leds are on and u can put hand under with no heat ,no need for a chiller .
like I said the offer is open if u want to chk out mine so u have an idea , if u are leaning towards the kessil design great look into and research it and then go for it .I don't know much about them so can t help u out 
cheers 
tom


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## Steel_Wind

tom g said:


> keep in mind that I ran t5s huge heat , my leds are on and u can put hand under with no heat ,no need for a chiller.


No argument there. I have a chiller, but that doesn't mean I want to run it.

It is hard to argue against LEDs when the lights work so well and the consumable cost of running them is so low. It's about whether or not the higher up front cost is something affordable.

As you and others have pointed out, there certainly are _very_ affordable LED options. And to be honest, there are some top shelf options that I can do on this tank as I only need one light. If I needed three of them - different story _entirely_.


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## kamal

if you go DIY i think rapidled are pretty good place to shop


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## Steel_Wind

kamal said:


> if you go DIY i think rapidled are pretty good place to shop


I appreciate the advice and if this was a LED upgrade to a BioCube 29, say, or upgrading a AI Sol Blue to a Vega, I might well go for such a DIY approach.

But a man's got to know his limitations. When it comes to creating a LED light and soldering those connections, I'm not that guy. For that task, I'm far more comfortable paying somebody else to do that for me  I don't give good warranties, either.


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## kamal

they do solderless kits  just saying but yes I know where you are coming from. I was just offering my two cents


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## badmedicine

At the recent MACNA 2013 conference Mark Callihan met a few vendors regrading their products. If you haven't seen any of his videos, it is a good watch. Mr. Saltwater .com for those interested.

At the show two things seemed applicable:

-Apex controllers able to controller all (but a few) lights.
- Also the newer Apex will be plug n play with minimal configuration (mostly wirelessly).

I would suggest that anyone interested in new products (lights, controllers&#8230 do a youtube search for MACNA 2013 to see what is coming out. Although these products are mostly from u.s.a it won't be long until CANADA gets them.


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## Steel_Wind

I ultimately decided to purchase a Kessil a360w LED light for this tank, to be hung from the Kessil gooseneck and we will see if the new 90 degree fob on the gooseneck will work on this tank (I have my doubts). The Kessil will initially be hooked up to a RKL Basic with the T5/LED module for lighting control. I will probably upgrade this to an Apex sometime in the new year, but for now the Black Friday deals on the RKL at BRS (along with a lot of other gear) were simply too good to pass up.

As matters developed, I also acquired and will be setting up a second tank, a 33g .5m Cube AI Starphire. I am lighting that tank with 2x Halo Lightbox LED lamps installed on a Clamp2.

Thanks all for the recommendations. As ever, the success is shared; however, the blame for a fiery crash and burn will be all on me. 

RO/DI unit expected to be delivered today. So I expect to be starting the curing process later this week on my Pukani dry rock. Fish will be in the water by late January if all goes well.


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## sig

assuming this tank will not have enough space for a corals in a month or two and desire to have a bigger tank will consume all your thoughts, I would suggest to get a light which could be a part of the future set up.

Kessil a360w is not really visible or many will be required on future 72x30x20 

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## Steel_Wind

If I go to a 48" tank (and you are right Sig, it is entirely plausible that I may well do so in the near future) I will add another a360w to it at the time -- or sell this one and move on to something else. There are lots of people running two Kessil a360w Tuna Blues over a 48" long tank (and some running 3 of them). Whatever the case, worrying too much about the future will leave me paralyzed like a deer in the headlights right _*now*_.

For now, I hope this will make me happy and look good both as gear and in the shimmering blue light it produces.

About which, more later in February, 2014.


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## jmb

That's good you came to a conclusion. Remember to post pics once you receive it!


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## kamal

Woohoo, congratulations on the new purchases I am sure it will look awesome. Most of all well done for not rushing the build. Slow and steady wins the race


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## Steel_Wind

kamal said:


> Woohoo, congratulations on the new purchases I am sure it will look awesome. Most of all well done for not rushing the build. Slow and steady wins the race


Which reminds me, I need to have my friend drop by your place sometime this week to grab that pump. PM and let me know what time(s) are best for you.

Thanks. I am looking forward to getting this all set up. *sigh* Rushing in certainly is a great temptation, but I have avoided the worst of those instincts so far at least.


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## Kweli

check out evergrow, avail at reefsuppliescanada

I have it, awesome unit and im loving it. only 170 dollars with different channels for blue and white


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## Steel_Wind

I did and strongly considered buying one. At the end of the day, the Kessil a360w is the light I wanted and was available at a price I was prepared to pay. I wanted to be sure my light was controllable through either the RK or Apex. The Kessil a360w is controllable by both of those units. That was the deciding factor for me away from one of the better Chinese LED lights.

I ended up getting the Kessil lightly used at a good price. Not a great price perhaps, but still better than full retail.

In contrast, the Halo Lightbox lamps I picked up at a *very* good price from a GTAA member. I bought the Clamp2 new from Fragbox. While the Halos may not be recommended for SPS, I expect most of what goes in that particular tank will be softies and LPS anyway.

I am actually quite pleased to be winding down the system/ hardware acquisition part of these AQ builds and look forward to setting it all up and getting this stuff all into action.

I will say this though: after nearly 3 months of daily and exhaustive searches of Kijiji, GTAA and Canreef, and every large online seller, I have a pretty good handle on the value of (most) gear on the used and new market in Canada!! It's nice to be able to look at an ad and know instantly whether it is worth a closer look or just a waste of time.

Time to start putting together similar experience with fish and corals. Somehow, I think that mental database will take a *lot* longer to acquire/learn ...

__________________
.Robert


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## Steel_Wind

For those curious about the Kessil, BRS released a product spotlight on it today.

I am getting excited to get all of this going!


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## Kweli

Wow looks good. I dismissed them at first because it looked like a single led. That video sold me..... for my next tank though. Pretty cool to see a lighting company make something tailored to aquatic and not working with whatever is on the market

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## Steel_Wind

And in happier news, the BRS 5 stage RO/DI is hooked up and squirting water into my rez. With a new pail of Reef Crystals at the ready, it will be SW mixing, refractometer time and Dry Rock finally in the water tomorrow. Skimmer! Powerheads! Not quite show time -- but at least the dress rehearsal is not far off.


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## kamal

Any updates

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