# rams laid eggs



## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

hey there , my rams laid eggs the other day , yeahhhhhhh.lol but she ate most of them , i saved around 30 or so of them , moved them to another tank , have a sponge filter running , air difuser in tank and i just noticed one of the eggs spinging like something tryin to get out . yeah what do i do now . i have brine shrimp tryin to hatch but i dont think its gonna work , what should i be doing what do i have to watch for when and if it makes it out of its egg 
thanks 
tom


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Well congrats, and When you see the 'eggs' start moving or when you notice them hatch they have yolk sacs that they will feed off of for about 3 days, or when you see them swimming around then u will know its time to feed. It sounds like they are almost at the wiggler stage from here on its pretty tough to keep them together i woudn't advise trying lol.

As for brine shrimp of course only newly hatched and that is usually the only thing they can eat. Keep the shrimp at 75-80deg F and make sure u have a bubbler and the right amount of salt in with the volume of water. it should take about 30 hours to hatch then you can remove the bubbler and suck up the shrimp.

ahh they are Bolivians. What temp are u keeping them at?


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

they are german rams , i have moved up the temp from the reg tank so i am thinking its at 82 .


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

82 is what i keep my rams at, so thats fine. lol i guessed Bolivians since u have in you sig red tailed. anyways good luck.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

thanks ,the only prob i am seeing is that when i sucked out the eggs from the main tank when i noticed she was eating them is that i ended up with the waste from the tank in the quarantine tank , some of the eggs are covered with the crap , anyways 
thanks for your help
tom


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

add a bit of methylene blue in there....proventing fungus.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

where do i get that from


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

I got mine from BAs.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

ok will chk it out tommorow , is it the same as hydrogen peroxide


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

not so much. H2O2 is much more powerful of a "general kill everything" kinda thing. Methylene blue is a mild fungicide that has a very large safe zone (hence it is commonly used for fungal prevention with eggs).

oh, and not too sure where you are located, but I know BA NY has bottles of meth blue. For other branches, give them a call first.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about fungus, since they are about to hatch, if they haven't already. The grunge from the original tank probably contains protozoa that the fry can eat. If you have some java moss or other fine-leaved plants you might put some in when the fry have hatched. It will have lots of critters that the fry can start out with.

I can give you some microworms to feed your fry, but you'll have to either come downtown to pick them up, or I may go to the TWAS meeting on Wednesday and I can bring you a starter then.

Don't feel too bad if your fry don't make it. They are very small and without parental care it's even more of a challenge. Your fish will spawn repeatedly and eventually they may figure out the parental care bit. The problem with cichlids that have been commercially bred in quantity for generations is that the breeders take the eggs away from the parents to get them to spawn again immediately, so there's no selection pressure to maintain effective parenting and the instinct gets lost.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

bae said:


> The problem with cichlids that have been commercially bred in quantity for generations is that the breeders take the eggs away from the parents to get them to spawn again immediately, so there's no selection pressure to maintain effective parenting and the instinct gets lost.


This is a theory put forward by a lot of hobbyists, but one I have to disagree with - at least with my experience with rams (not balloon rams or any other genetic monsters however) and apistos. I have to preface my points with the fact that much of this is based on my own personal experience, mixed with some knowledge attained by some more experienced breeders. Much of it is also backed up by authors such as Uwe Romer (The Cichlid Atlas).

I think this theory is used quite a bit to explain away the lack of success many have in properly breeding. In my opinion there are a number of reasons that explain these.

First off, instincts are not something that can be learned through experience (or lack of). They are passed along genetically, and to remove them would take more than simply controlling the breeding process.

In fact, it is actually instincts themselves that cause many rams to eat their own eggs (which is one of the common problems). This, I believe, is done because of many environmental factors (especially those in the home aquarium), such as stress, overcrowding or wrong (or outright bad) water parameters. The fish eat their eggs because they instinctively believe that the spawn has a low-rate of success, thus regaining the energy exerted by the spawning process and preparing for their next spawn by ensuring their health.

The second point deals with lacking parental care. This, in my opinion, is often caused by immature males and females spawning, when in natural conditions this would not occur. While fish may be able to breed at a certain age, until they are fully grown and mature they are not going to have a high degree of success. In the nature, immature males and females are not chosen as partners for spawning as there is proper competition. While immature ones often pair off anyway, their spawns are often in less ideal locations and their fry are often left uncared for because territories cannot be defended properly or the parents have little to no interest in the fry at that stage in their life.

In the aquarium, rams (for example) often have little to no choice in their partners. As such, their breeding attempts often have little success at first because immature rams pair off together. While many notice that it takes awhile for them to "learn", the reality is the fish are just maturing. By the time they are mature, they can properly spawn and care for their fry.

This doesn't mean that the commercial breeding, on a large scale, of these fish has had no impact at all, just that I believe the theory based on that regarding breeding is often used as an excuse by the hobbyist when more appropriate reasons are exist.

This also doesn't mean that these hormone induced fish coming from Asia are all able to sexually reproduce. Many come sterile from the way their were reared and bred.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Hi, Chris. I agree with you on all points. I wouldn't attribute this 'loss of instinct due to artificial breeding' to any cichlids beyond angelfish and rams. Very few others, if any, have been subjected to so many generations of massive artificial breeding in which there is no selection for effective parenting, so there is no selection against defective mutations in the 'parenting genes'.

I certainly agree that parenting behaviour is probably almost entirely genetic in cichlids. Under good aquarium conditions, with all they can eat, they may mature physically before their parenting instincts mature. This can be seen in other animals, including livestock like sheep and cattle, and even, to go out on a limb, in humans. Twelve-year-olds these days may be able to have babies, but are they mature enough psychologically to maintain a 'pair bond' or raise children?

I haven't read Romer's book, but another one that also makes these points about egg-eating as an adaptive response to poor prospects of raising fry (since in the wild it takes substantial time and effort to obtain enough food to mature a batch of eggs), and sexual selection against young fish that don't look like they can do a good job of defending their future eggs and fry, or even a spawning location, is Paul Loiselle's 'The Cichlid Aquarium'.

To go off on a tangent, captive breeding of endangered animals in hopes of reintroducing them into the wild is virtuous, but may not be possible. Behaviour is genetic, but like all inherited traits, it takes selection to maintain the entire panoply. With the best of intentions we can't provide the same selection pressures. A year or two ago I read a paper about behaviour in wild-caught vs seventh-generation captive fish of the Goodeid Ameca splendens. Wild-caught males spent most of their time foraging for food, while the unintentionally domesticated males spent most of their time courting females. The former behaviour results in more surviving offspring in the wild, while the latter results in more surviving offspring in captivity, so each population shows a predominance of the most adaptive behaviour for their environment. Reintroducing these fish to the wild may not be as straightforward as hoped -- they don't have the same genetic composition as their wild ancestors.

We can't cull our fry the way 'nature' does, and we can't provide our fish with the same opportunities for sexual selection that are so important in the wild. Alas. Well, we can try!


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

+1 to ChrisS.....much of it can also be applied to humans.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Excellent points bae (sorry don't know your name!).

I wish I was 18 years old again, so I could start to develop a thesis for some of these ideas we are throwing around. I think a lot of study on these issues remains to be done - in the meantime it is nice to have some lively banter regarding them!

It would really be interesting to take 7th or 8th generation (hell, why not 15th?) aquarium bred fish and compare them to wild caught specimens. I'm sure the old "nature vs nurture" could be applied to a degree of their behaviour.


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## mauve (Apr 12, 2010)

Chris S said:


> not balloon rams or any other genetic monsters


Genetic monsters is right. One must be a pervert to enjoy these miscreants (lionhead, bubble eye gold fish, etc) LOL
Anyway, my rams are tending to their new nest right now, chasing an over-curious algae eater. This is a second spawn for the female and first for the male who seems more attentive to the eggs than the lady. How long dos it take for the eggs to turn into "larva"?


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Chris S said:


> This is a theory put forward by a lot of hobbyists, but one I have to disagree with - at least with my experience with rams (not balloon rams or any other genetic monsters however) and apistos. I have to preface my points with the fact that much of this is based on my own personal experience, mixed with some knowledge attained by some more experienced breeders. Much of it is also backed up by authors such as Uwe Romer (The Cichlid Atlas).
> 
> I think this theory is used quite a bit to explain away the lack of success many have in properly breeding. In my opinion there are a number of reasons that explain these.
> 
> ...


Brilliant Chris. I hadn't thought of most of those factors. Your thoughts on immature fish breeding in captivity were really interesting.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

The eggs will hatch in less than two days after spawning. The parents will pick up the hatching eggs in their mouths and spit them into a new location. The fry will be free-swimming in another three days or so. All this is faster at warmer temps, slower at cooler ones. Put some dirty java moss or similar in the tank for the fry to pick protozoa and such from. If you want a microworm culture I can give you one.


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## mauve (Apr 12, 2010)

Alright, it's almost a day and a half.
I have a bunch of micro worms in a couple of tubs, so far I just fed neons with them. Moss is good.


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