# Altums in Taiwan



## gucci17

Taiwan seems to be getting more and more into the fish game these days.


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## kev416

Great video. Thanks!


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## Angelic

woah 0_0 so many tanks, so much equipment. Wonder how much the cost of everything and cost of upkeep is on that XD


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## kev416

It's quite the set up. But genetically there seems to be something missing in those fish. Without the middle bar the fish loose the 'wow effect.' I'd have to say, I would skip these and look for the perfect banding seen in other altums.


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## blackninja

kev416 said:


> It's quite the set up. But genetically there seems to be something missing in those fish. Without the middle bar the fish loose the 'wow effect.' I'd have to say, I would skip these and look for the perfect banding seen in other altums.


Considering no one has successfully bred Altums in Canada we can afford to be a bit picky. Where did you say we could get those perfect Altums? 
Now that is a world class operation so one would think they would have the smarts to at least start with some decent Altums. What they lack is our Canadian expertise.


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## kev416

Must be inbreeding. Or some initial cross from wild angel that introduced stripeless. I trust no one claiming to sell capitive bred altums. Have to see them in person. But i wouldn't hesitate ordering a dozen small wild altums from Belowater. Now if you could hybridize this to a Texas cichlid... I bet that would cause a controversy! LOL


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## dl88dl

kev416 said:


> Must be inbreeding. Or some initial cross from wild angel that introduced stripeless. I trust no one claiming to sell capitive bred altums. Have to see them in person. But i wouldn't hesitate ordering a dozen small wild altums from Belowater. Now if you could hybridize this to a Texas cichlid... I bet that would cause a controversy! LOL


Dragon King on Steeles have 7 F1 Altums for sale and the body size is about 4" and have all their stripes.


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## Ciddian

I don't know much about altums but I knew a guy who used to keep a couple years ago and I just find them (and all angels) very pretty.

What is the perfect altum supposed to look like?


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## gucci17

Yeah I find it strange that the middle bar is partially missing...with the high cost of the entire operation why wouldn't they invest in specimens with full stripes? Perhaps they're still working on the perfect breeding environment? Something is definitely missing here....

Cid, I'm not an angel expert so I can't answer what the 'perfect' altum would look like . Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....


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## kev416

V. I'm just kidding about the hybrid.

Thanks dl88dl I'll check them out.

Ciddian, the pic I like is not mine. Comes from the web. But to me these are good altums. High body and good stripes.


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## dl88dl

kev416 said:


> V. I'm just kidding about the hybrid.
> 
> Thanks dl88dl I'll check them out.
> 
> Ciddian, the pic I like is not mine. Comes from the web. But to me these are good altums. High body and good stripes.


Those ones looks exactly like mine


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## kev416

gucci17, it could be mood... being fightened or over crowded... but I highly doubt it.

Here's a video of altums I like.


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## gucci17

kev416 said:


> V. I'm just kidding about the hybrid.
> 
> Thanks dl88dl I'll check them out.
> 
> Ciddian, the pic I like is not mine. Comes from the web. But to me these are good altums. High body and good stripes.


Those are how I would like my altums to look if I ever had the chance to keep some.



dl88dl said:


> Those ones looks exactly like mine


Any you don't share some pics? greedy greedy!


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## kev416

> Those ones looks exactly like mine


Dragon King has great suppliers. Everytime I walk in I feel like I'm in arowana heaven. Love to see your altums when the get full size.


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## Zebrapl3co

Looks a bit like the peruvian altums to me.

If they are truely the real altum, then it can only be decendants of the original American (I think) breeder; who 8 or 9 years ago, was able to consistenly breed altums. The only reason why it triggers my memory was because there was a big controversy about the missing or 1/2 middle bar. He claims that they are breed from true altums, but many suspect that he crossed with some other angles to produce a his orginal breedable batch. But there was a flaw and that was the missing or 1/2 visible middle bar.
I am very dissappointed with this video. These altums looks ugly. It's 1/10th of what a real altum should look like.
But they again, hybrid breeders see nothing in the orginal fish. All they see is just the name and it's popularity. Really sad.

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## dl88dl

gucci17 said:


> Any you don't share some pics? greedy greedy!


Sure I will take some pictures and post it here tomorrow...too busy today.


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## Zebrapl3co

kev416 said:


> gucci17, it could be mood... being fightened or over crowded... but I highly doubt it.
> 
> Here's a video of altums I like.


Now that is more like. Real Altums. Not shitty deformed fish.

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## dl88dl

I was at AquaPet yesterday and saw some true altums there and they were around 2.5 to 2.75 body size for $49.99 each.


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## blackninja

Zebrapl3co said:


> Now that is more like. Real Altums. Not shitty deformed fish.


Interesting comment by Altumnut in quotes"*The first claim of tank bred Altums is by german breeder and explorer Horst Linke. He documented his achievement and published it in das aquarium. Today, some farms (czech, japanese,...) have generations derived from Linke's pair. From F3 upwards, the altums carry the broken bar syndrome... common with inbreeding:"*

Link to Altumnut's comment:http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=130720

So it doesn't appear to be a hybrid or deformity issue.


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## Ciddian

OOhhh thanks for the pics and vids guys


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## BillD

blackninja said:


> Considering no one has successfully bred Altums in Canada we can afford to be a bit picky. Where did you say we could get those perfect Altums?
> Now that is a world class operation so one would think they would have the smarts to at least start with some decent Altums. What they lack is our Canadian expertise.


Altums have been bred in Canada if my information is correct. The perfect altums would come from the wild, through someone like Oliver Lucanus, who brings them in regularly. South America has opened up significantly in the last 15 or so years, so many fish are easier to come by. Jeff Cardwell has been known to make 4 day long weekend collecting trips, to places that used to take several days just to get to.


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## blackninja

BillD said:


> Altums have been bred in Canada if my information is correct. The perfect altums would come from the wild, through someone like Oliver Lucanus, who brings them in regularly. South America has opened up significantly in the last 15 or so years, so many fish are easier to come by. Jeff Cardwell has been known to make 4 day long weekend collecting trips, to places that used to take several days just to get to.


If you information is correct we then have to challenge Heiko Bleher for making such grossly incorrect statements.

"*Heiko Bleher*
01-31-2010, 09:16 AM
Hi guys,

I made a new topic, just so you all see it faster.
Natasha has worked a full week (although being very sick with bronchitis since our last 3 expeditions) to place a compact film together of the real P. altum. She made a nice underwater film in a Laguna, in one of its orginal (Inirida)habitats. In addition I have added orginal habitat photos of its type locality in the Atabapo from my recent November/December field trip where I collected the first already 40 years ago. I also added detailed photographs of its morphologic characters which separate P. altum from all other angelfish species (by those shown in detail).

The real P. altum is destinct and very much though. We can find so many miss-identifications (even on this great forum). And I want to say it one more time very clear:
*All those I have seen which claim to have bred P. altum so far, have not bred this unique and majestic species. This aplies to all of those I have seen around the world, in the internet and in all the publications which mentioned to have bred them with success, and that applies also to those seen on this forum. The only exception so far has happened in Canada in 1992, but it happened while his owner was away and after a large water change, at the time they spawn in nature (and he had changed the environment of his tank). Unfortunatly the 200 offspring were all lost.*

We have placed a preview (of 20 seconds) on my website and one can see the entire video by going to our shop and buy it. It is nearly 10 minutes long and totally comprehensive, including all its mates are mentioned, which live there together - by their scientific name in writing - its habitat is well shown, and what he feeds on in nature, as well as its environment, in both, the Inirida basin and the blackwater habitat in the Atabapo river. (The latter is its type locality and where I collected it already in the late 1960s and 1970s when I introduced this species for the first time into the hobby.)

Enjoy it now, also some other video we placed, which are for free...

With this video and pictures as well as its text in it everyone should understand it, will be able to see clearly what P. altum Pellegrin, 1904 is.

Best regards to all of you,

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com"

Here is the link:http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-76975.html


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## BillD

That statement by Heiko has been challenged, and there was a big thread on it at finarama. Heiko says a lot of things that many creditable people in the hobby/trade/science community take exception to. He is not very well regarded by his peers. I was quite surprised how often his name comes up in presentations, and the derisive comments that generally follow.


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## Zebrapl3co

blackninja said:


> Interesting comment by Altumnut in quotes"*The first claim of tank bred Altums is by german breeder and explorer Horst Linke. He documented his achievement and published it in das aquarium. Today, some farms (czech, japanese,...) have generations derived from Linke's pair. From F3 upwards, the altums carry the broken bar syndrome... common with inbreeding:"*
> 
> Link to Altumnut's comment:http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=130720
> 
> So it doesn't appear to be a hybrid or deformity issue.


For your information, Horst Linke started out with F4. Decendants from the orginals that was from a Japanese breeder. Have a read of TFH back in 1992 for the real breeder of that line.
I have not seen Horst Linke's altums. But they could have been scalare. Back then nobody knows of the difference between Pterophyllum altum and Pterophyllum scalare. P. Scalare, if you bother to do any research, is easy to breed. It's P. altums that have proven to be difficult to breed. Most people in Asia probably don't even know there was 2 kinds fo Pterophyllum. That's why I think they are Peruvian altum AKA P. Scalare.

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## blackninja

BillD said:


> That statement by Heiko has been challenged, and there was a big thread on it at finarama. Heiko says a lot of things that many creditable people in the hobby/trade/science community take exception to. He is not very well regarded by his peers. I was quite surprised how often his name comes up in presentations, and the derisive comments that generally follow.


It would be a lot easier if you just provided us the link where someone is refuting Heiko's position on Altums and let us be the judge. I hate to see a Canadian not being recognized for having bred Altums in captivity.


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## Aquatic Designs

LOL. Taiwan just getting into the game of fish? You must be joking. They invented fish farming and the ornamental fish trade. They are pioneers in this industry. If it's been bred in captivity. You can bet the farm it was done in Taiwan first.


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## gucci17

Aquatic Designs said:


> LOL. Taiwan just getting into the game of fish? You must be joking. They invented fish farming and the ornamental fish trade. They are pioneers in this industry. If it's been bred in captivity. You can bet the farm it was done in Taiwan first.


Wow J, a little over exaggeration...

Invented fish farming? Try Indonesia and Malaysia as the biggest ornamental exporter in the world...

Easy bud, I know Taiwan is up there too. I have family there...

*sorry, let's not get off topic now


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## Aquatic Designs

Sorry if it came off harsh. Not the intention. I hate txt. 

But yes they did invent fish farming. No joke. And they do produce more then indo and malaysia. I would bet they produce more then them combined. If you have family there then you should know just how big the aquaculture business is. 

Taiwans aquaculture industry sends a few billion (US dollars) annually of grouper to mainland China for food. And that is more then North Americas ornamental fish trade is. It is unbelievable the amount of business Taiwan does in aquaculture. The numbers are staggering. I did not believe it at first until i saw pictures of the Taikong Corp's Farm(s). They are massive, with ponds as far as the eye can see. 

Sorry to be off topic. I'll get on to that now.

I'm no angel breeder. But isn't breeding Altums like the holy grail to angel keepers. I have heard from many people in the community too that Heiko says things that just aren't true. Then again isn't heiko the one who gets into trouble on his expeditions and makes it harder for other collectors to get permits because he doesn't like to follow the rules? One of the reasons he doesn't get crediblity from his peers.


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## kev416

Taiwan is an island known mainly for saltwater fish collection. They are commercial shrimp producers. Thailand is the country noted for ornamental tropical fish production. Perhaps the names are confusing.


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## Aquatic Designs

Names are not confusing. 

Thailand is way down the list and is relatively new in the game.


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## kev416

Not on a list of suppliers.


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## dl88dl

gucci17 said:


> Any you don't share some pics? greedy greedy!


Here are some pictures of my Altums -


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## dl88dl

Not sure why I couldn't load all the pictures in one post but here are some more pics -


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## dl88dl

My pics must be too big to load more than 3 pics -


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## kev416

Beautiful fish Dave. Thanks for the pics!


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## Zebrapl3co

Beautiful altum Dave, not even close to adults yet, but you will love them when they are older. But if they should be in breeding mood, they will kill off that blue ram and cardinals. The cory will be hidding all of the time because every time they come out the altum what attack them. That's how I discover that my altum are in breeding mood. There is also a certain mating courtship that they do. They tend to bit each other, if they should prove to be compatible, two will pair off and the male would do the funny charge at the female and them vere off at the last second. Ofcourse, if they should prove to be incompatible, the female is going to get killed. That's about as far as I got, they never breed because I didn't have the time for them back then. I was going to circle around to them and remove all the loaches and plecos from the tank, but the damn pump gave out and both died. I should have bought that breeding cone at the fish action back then.
Oh, one more thing you might want to try, I find that live food get's them horny.
*sigh* I miss them.

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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> My pics must be too big to load more than 3 pics -


You are the man here Dave. Great looking fish.


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## gucci17

Aquatic Designs said:


> Sorry if it came off harsh. Not the intention. I hate txt.
> 
> But yes they did invent fish farming. No joke. And they do produce more then indo and malaysia. I would bet they produce more then them combined. If you have family there then you should know just how big the aquaculture business is.
> 
> Taiwans aquaculture industry sends a few billion (US dollars) annually of grouper to mainland China for food. And that is more then North Americas ornamental fish trade is. It is unbelievable the amount of business Taiwan does in aquaculture. The numbers are staggering. I did not believe it at first until i saw pictures of the Taikong Corp's Farm(s). They are massive, with ponds as far as the eye can see.
> 
> Sorry to be off topic. I'll get on to that now.
> 
> I'm no angel breeder. But isn't breeding Altums like the holy grail to angel keepers. I have heard from many people in the community too that Heiko says things that just aren't true. Then again isn't heiko the one who gets into trouble on his expeditions and makes it harder for other collectors to get permits because he doesn't like to follow the rules? One of the reasons he doesn't get crediblity from his peers.


Sorry, I may have come off the wrong way as well. I know they are a HUGE player in both ornamental and commercial fishing. But I had always thought that Indo/Malaysia was the ornamental fish leaders.

I just brought up this thread because it reminded me of their FW ray breeding facilities. Which are very impressive as well.



blackninja said:


> You are the man here Dave. Great looking fish.


+1 Thanks for sharing Dave!


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## dl88dl

kev416 said:


> Beautiful fish Dave. Thanks for the pics!


TY kev416



Zebrapl3co said:


> Beautiful altum Dave, not even close to adults yet, but you will love them when they are older. But if they should be in breeding mood, they will kill off that blue ram and cardinals. The cory will be hidding all of the time because every time they come out the altum what attack them. That's how I discover that my altum are in breeding mood. There is also a certain mating courtship that they do. They tend to bit each other, if they should prove to be compatible, two will pair off and the male would do the funny charge at the female and them vere off at the last second. Ofcourse, if they should prove to be incompatible, the female is going to get killed. That's about as far as I got, they never breed because I didn't have the time for them back then. I was going to circle around to them and remove all the loaches and plecos from the tank, but the damn pump gave out and both died. I should have bought that breeding cone at the fish action back then.
> Oh, one more thing you might want to try, I find that live food get's them horny.
> *sigh* I miss them.


Yeah they are still small and the body size is about 2.5" but I got them to eat anything that I throw in that tank which include flakes and they eat like pigs also I got them to use just tap water. When they get bigger I will move them to a bigger tank with just Altums. I also kept these Altums 20 years ago but I could not get them to breed even with very soft blackwater with a PH of 6 and temp at 88F but breeding Discus was much easier. Might get back into Discus too



blackninja said:


> You are the man here Dave. Great looking fish.


TY Vince but you are the man when it comes to Red Texas



gucci17 said:


> +1 Thanks for sharing Dave!


Thanks Derek


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