# electric blue Jack Dempseys



## pat3612

Has any one come across these . Big Als have a pair that are just outstanding looking. I really wanted them but wasnt sure if they are dyed or a true breed.I quess ill go look them up.


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## MacFish

I've been keeping them for a few years now. They are not died and I don't believe they are hybrids. There are many that do feel they are though.

Lots of info here...

www.allthingsdempsey.com

Which Big Als did you see them at? How big were they and what was the price out of curiosity?

A couple things to be aware of. They are expensive. Typically, they are at least $20 per 1" fish. They are sensitive. Very sensitive in most cases. They require very good water conditions and no stress if you want them to survive. Typically, once they get to 3", you are pretty safe. Until then, it's touch and go. They can be fine one day and dead the next.

They suffer from 2 main problems. Internal parasites and bad eyes. 
The parasite problem can be controlled by keeping water conditions perfect and stress to a minimum. Those that get bullied and/or kept in poor conditions tend to develop the parasites almost all the time. Like some Africans that are prone to bloat, I try to make sure I offer a lot of spirulina. I can't say for sure that this is a cure but since I have done this, I have had much better success. Bad eyes are purely genetic. You won't really know if they suffer from this until they get to about 2.5" and in some cases larger.

They are a colour mutation of the standard Jack Dempsey ( Rocio octofasciata ) but typically grow slower and are generally less aggressive. Requirements can be found here....

http://cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=23

There has been DNA tests done to prove they are not a hybrid but even they are not 100%. Of the strains tested, they were a 100% match to a male and female Jack Dempsey. Problem is, it would take years and a lot of money to do a full DNA test. Those who believe they are hybrids feel that if a full DNA test is done, one would eventually find that there are other genes in the EBJD's make up. I have seen a lot of scientific evidence that supports the colour morph theory but only internet hearsay in support of the hybrid theory.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Here are a few of my best shots.

My first one successfully kept ( I lost her at about 4 years and 6" )










My smaller male. He has bred for me and I am raising a batch of his fry now. They are not EBJD's but breeding them is another topic. He is about 4.5" and is for sale.










My big boy. One of the best EBJD's I've ever seen. I am planning on breeding him with the offspring of the last guy.










He deserves another pic


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## tobalman

Very nice EBJD you got there, great pictures too. Will they be ok with african cichlid ?


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## MacFish

That really depends on which Africans. I have seen many people keep them together. Personally, I wouldn't.


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## pat3612

The ones at Big Als were about 2 inches they looked very heathy, they are 100 dollars for the pair which I now have on hold . I think Iam going to take them.


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## MacFish

If you need help with them, let me know.

If you get them, I would also advise picking up a pack of this...

http://www.aq-products.com/APpro/hexout.htm

If they do have/get internal parasites, I have had good success with this product but you MUST act quickly.


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## pat3612

Thanks Macfish do you know if Big Als Carrys it or do I have to order it .


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## MacFish

Thats where I bought it last time (mississauaga)


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## pat3612

Ok thanks Iam sure they will have it here then. Iam going to pick them up in about an hour or so. Could you tell me what temp you keep them at .Thanks again for your help.


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## MacFish

I normally keep my adults at about 78 - 80 but my juvies were kept closer to 82 - 83. Once they hit the 2" mark, I lowered the temp. 

I'd ask the store what temp they are in now.


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## moon

Macfish
Are the female EBJD's fertile or are you breeding your males with regular JD's?


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## MacFish

The reason most people breed a male EBJD to a female JD is because until recently, it seemed that most EBJD's were male. It is almost impossible to sex EBJD's even in adulthood just by looking at them. Behavior (spawning) and venting are the only 100% way. Another reason is because EBJD's are typically less aggressive than regular JD's. Matching a strong male JD to a weaker less aggressive female EBJD typically does not end well.

Both males and females are fertile but breeding EBJD X EBJD does not produce viable fry. Most die (or get killed by the parents) once they go free swimming. There is a breeder in Florida that I know that has successfully raised a spawn but he said the fish were not good quality so they were culled.

The theory is that since every EBJD originated from the same pair, they are so inbred that the colour morph is weak. They were heavily inbred at the beginning but more and more people are bringing in new blood so eventually, I am guessing EBJD x EBJD will someday produce strong and healthy fish.

Right now, the only way to breed EBJD's is to breed an EBJD to a Regular JD. This produces 100% regular looking JD's but they all carry the Blue Gene. These are referred to as BGJD. You must then breed a pair of BGJD's or an EBJD to a BGJD. In the early stages, some people took the easy route and bred siblings or bred daughters back to their fathers. Not such an issue in most fish but in a fish that started extremely inbred, it does not produce good results. Add in the fact people find it difficult to cull a $20.00 1" fish, and you get a bunch of inbred less than ideal stock.

When 2 BGJD are bred, you will get

25% EBJD
50% BGJD
25% JD

When you breed EBJD x BGJD you get

50% EBJD
50% BGJD.

This is standard genetics and what is expected using the punnett square to determine the probability of an offspring having a particular genotype.

This is more evidence that supports the colour morph theory and not hybrid. 
I don't know any hybrid being bred that produces exactly what the punnett square says it should. Granted, I don't anyone who has counted every single fry in a spawn to see if it is exact but from the breeders I've spoken to and the documented spawn pictures I've seen, it is very very close.

To add to this as well are Gold Dempseys. Another colour morph of a JD. There have been people that have bred an EBJD to a Gold JD and the fry all look 100% like regular Dempseys.

As far as we know, there are no EBJD's in the wild. I think that has to do with the fact that they are weaker than JD fry. Even in the aquarium, very special care is required to raise EBJD fry. If left to their own devices, the parents will kill every single EBJD***. I assume the same is happening in the wild. There must be BGJD's in the wild somewhere but any EBJD's produced are either killed by the parents or picked off by other predators since their colouration makes them an easy target. Hard to blend in when you are bright blue and white 

***the article below states otherwise but every breeder I've spoken with says they have to separate the Blues from the regulars.

Here is a link to the original article written about the discovery of the EBJD.

http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/tfhblue.htm


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## Canadiancray

I thought you wouldn't get blues from EBJD + EBJD?


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## MacFish

You will get 100% blue but they will not survive.


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## moon

Thanks for the explanation. Interesting stuff. 
Wonder why the EBJD kill their fry. Do they somehow sense the inherent weakness of the fry? Or is it because of the colours? The parents may have a genetic imprint of what their are supposed to look like. So when the fry appear different they probably see them some one elses fry.


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## MacFish

It may also be the regular looking fry that kills them. Thats partially it as the regular fry tend to grow quicker and out compete the EB's. 

I hope to have some first hand experience by next summer. My BGJD's are growing nicely and hopefully my big male will pick a mate and spawn. Failing that, I will need to go looking for some good quality juvies that I can pair with my BG's. Not an easy task since it's taken me 3 years to find decent stock I considered worthy of breeding.


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## Safunte

MacFish said:


> ...the article below states otherwise but *every breeder I've spoken with* says they have to separate the Blues from the regulars.
> 
> Here is a link to the original article written about the discovery of the EBJD.
> 
> http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/tfhblue.htm


first post =]

It would probably be in your best interest to do generation swap with one of these breeders. I'd guess the best way to go would be the BGJDs for mating with your original father assuming you can trust them.
Begin the genetic superiority


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## MacFish

That's the plan. Only problem is they are all in the southern US which makes it difficult. I was trying to put a road trip together this summer but I couldn't make it work. 

There is another guy local that had a spawn a couple weeks ago so I'm hoping we can swap soon.


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## Safunte

I'm actually also starting (well planning on starting) an EBJD breeding program. So if you know where I could acquire a BGJD(f) and/or an EBJD(m) reasonably and reliably that'd be great. 
After the additional tank setup for this I cant really afford to be running around buying unknown genetics and gender... I know its best to let them pair off but they'll grow on each other


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## MacFish

EBJD's can be found around the GTA but most times, the stores don't know the origins. Either that or they don't want to tell me  Sexing EB's is very difficult so the only way you will buy one sexed is to buy a larger fish. 

BGJD's are hard to come by. Most people don't want to let them go since it allows someone to skip a pretty lengthy step in the breeding program. If you put the time in and do it yourself, it makes it much more rewarding.


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## Safunte

more reward yet with more inbreeding  
I'll probably just end up breeding some BGJDs and looking for someone around here to trade with-sounds iffy though with your southern America mention.


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## MacFish

> more reward yet with more inbreeding


Not if you have 2 lines to work with  Trading with someone will allow me to pair up my BG's quicker. Since I can't find anyone to trade with, I have to wait until my BG's grow to a size that I can pair them with much my larger unrelated male.


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