# Need some serious advice please...



## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

Hey guys, Something weird is going on with my plants recently. I'm going to try and include as much detail as possible so you can get an understanding of the environment they're in. I greatly appreciate any help, as my research online has come up with nothing. 

My tanks successfully been running since July but was previously running since last december (I had switched from a Piranha tank to a planted tank). 
- It's a 37 gallon tall tank 
- Marineland biowheel 200
- Dual bulb Coralife 30" T5HO, 31 watt rosette bulb and a 10,000k bulb (yes i know the 10,000k isn't ideal). My lights come on at 11:15am and turn off at 6:15 pm everyday, never changes. 
- I do weekly water changes every sunday, always two 5 gallon buckets. 
- I dose Seapora plant fert once a week, 15ml. (not the best plant food)
- I have a dirt substrate, roughly 2.5 inches with a 0.5 inch cap of sand. I still get bubbles which come up from the substrate as well as burnt plant roots only on some plants but i've never lost a plant in this tank, there is always still white growth of roots coming out from the burnt ones so I know everything is still growing somewhat healthy. I made a rookie mistake using too much dirt and was stupid not to filter the dirt and mineralize it first but come December I'll have a chance to completely re-do my tank.
- I use Sera root tabs, usually 3 once a month near the big root feeders.
- Here are my readings for water, usually they are very consistent with respect to the nitrate as my guppies won't stop breeding (yes i'll be getting rid of them soon). 
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 5
PH- 8.2 (very hard i know  Toronto water sucks!!! and yes I use prime !

- The only thing that's changed in terms of water quality as of lately was I used to have those Ammonia Remover and a Carbon Remover inserts for an aqua clear, but took out the Carbon Remover as I heard it strips the plants of nutrients  so now only the Ammonia Remover is in there. 

The plants currently in the tank are 

- Flame moss
- S. Repens
- Alternanthera reineckii var. rosefolia
- Alternanthera reineckii var. rosefolia mini
- Dwarf Hairgrass
- Rotala Rotundifolia 
- Windelov Javafern
- Crinum Calamistratum
- Cryptocoryne Cordata Rosanervig
- Cryptocoryne Parva
- Cryptocoryne Nurii Pahang
- Cryptocoryne Nurii Pahang Mutated
- Cryptocoryne Tonkinensis
- Cryptocoryne Retrospiralis
- Cryptocoryne Wendtii 'Green Gecko'
- Dwarf Sagittaria

Now for the actual problem... As of recently leaves on some of my plants, in particular the Alternanthera Reineckii Var. Rosefolia has begun to "pinch" the tips of it's leaves on it's on. I've never seen my plants do this before and it's quite strange. Whats worse is now one of my Crypt's is also slightly doing the same thing but these leaves are still new and growing and are not pinched but instead "curling" along the sides. 

Attached are pictures for reference. Also don't mind the shitty looking leaves on the Nurii Pahang, it clearly came from a snail infested tank before I got it  

I've looked on charts online and spoken with a few plant guys and some say it may be a calcium issue but shouldn't be because there's plenty of it in the water already. I'm not sure what to do and I'd really like to nip this issue in the but before it goes bad. 

Thanks a lot


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

Hi, after reading your post a couple of times, I`m wondering why are you using an Ammonia media, if your bio filter is up to par you are way better off tossing it, you are starving your plants if this ammonia is working.

The claim of Carbon stripping plants of nutrients has never been proven as far as I know & personally never seen any difference with or without it , that said you don`t need it.
I`m hedging my bets on Carbon =CO2, with the lights you have & now the plants are nicely settled & ready to mature it needs carbon to sustain that growth. I have no proof it is 100% the issue, but if I had to guess that is what I`ll put my wager on.
Regards


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

charlie1 said:


> Hi, after reading your post a couple of times, I`m wondering why are you using an Ammonia media, if your bio filter is up to par you are way better off tossing it, you are starving your plants if this ammonia is working.
> 
> The claim of Carbon stripping plants of nutrients has never been proven as far as I know & personally never seen any difference with or without it , that said you don`t need it.
> I`m hedging my bets on Carbon =CO2, with the lights you have & now the plants are nicely settled & ready to mature it needs carbon to sustain that growth. I have no proof it is 100% the issue, but if I had to guess that is what I`ll put my wager on.
> Regards


Hey Charlie1 thanks for the response. I've been using the ammonia pad in my filter because I made a rookie mistake of using too much dirt in my tank...as a result I get excess gas that arises from the substrate. I'm confused though as to why my plants would be starved by having the ammonia pad? Forgive my lack of knowledge but do plants take up the excess ammonia in our tank?

The carbon has been removed from the tank for roughly 8 days now so thats not long an issue.

The plants being affected right now are not plants which require CO2 so that confuses me greatly. I just don't want to go out and buy a bunch of different nutrients only for them not to work, which is why I really wanna find out what's going on.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

TorontoPlantMan said:


> Hey Charlie1 thanks for the response. I've been using the ammonia pad in my filter because I made a rookie mistake of using too much dirt in my tank...as a result I get excess gas that arises from the substrate. I'm confused though as to why my plants would be starved by having the ammonia pad? Forgive my lack of knowledge but do plants take up the excess ammonia in our tank?
> 
> The carbon has been removed from the tank for roughly 8 days now so thats not long an issue.
> 
> The plants being affected right now are not plants which require CO2 so that confuses me greatly. I just don't want to go out and buy a bunch of different nutrients only for them not to work, which is why I really wanna find out what's going on.


Yes, plants require ammonia for their growth. If your tank is cycled, you have no reason to worry about ammonia. The fact that your nitrates are 5ppm indicates that you, in fact, don't have much nutrients in the system.

That said, if your plants are growing and not dying, then you don't need to worry about it.



> *I have a dirt substrate, roughly 2.5 inches with a 0.5 inch cap of sand.* I still get bubbles which come up from the substrate as well as burnt plant roots only on some plants but i've never lost a plant in this tank, there is always still white growth of roots coming out from the burnt ones so I know everything is still growing somewhat healthy. I made a rookie mistake using too much dirt and was stupid not to filter the dirt and mineralize it first but come December I'll have a chance to completely re-do my tank.


Am I reading this right? You have 2.5 inches of dirt with 0.5 inches of sand? Or is it the other way around?


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

solarz said:


> Yes, plants require ammonia for their growth. If your tank is cycled, you have no reason to worry about ammonia. The fact that your nitrates are 5ppm indicates that you, in fact, don't have much nutrients in the system.
> 
> That said, if your plants are growing and not dying, then you don't need to worry about it.
> 
> Am I reading this right? You have 2.5 inches of dirt with 0.5 inches of sand? Or is it the other way around?


Thank you for your input Solarz. My reasoning for worrying about ammonia has to do with the amount of dirt, not whether my tank is cycled or not. If plants require ammonia for their growth then why do we strive for 0 ppm ammonia in a tank? I know partially because of fish, but if it's good for plants then I don't get it lol.

Yes, the plants are growing and not dying but there not growing properly. If you take a look at the pictures the pinched leaf tips shouldn't be occurring under normal circumstances.

And yes you read the substrate correct. It was a huge rookie mistake and I was too anxious to just dirt my tank. It was originally 3" of dirt and 1" of sand but it was gassing so much I shut the tank down and ripped out a full large freezer bag full of dirt but looking back on it I should have taken a few of those bags out  I'm moving in less than 3 weeks which is why I'll be tearing down my tank and starting over but I want to find out what I'm doing wrong now.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

TorontoPlantMan said:


> Thank you for your input Solarz. My reasoning for worrying about ammonia has to do with the amount of dirt, not whether my tank is cycled or not. If plants require ammonia for their growth then why do we strive for 0 ppm ammonia in a tank? I know partially because of fish, but if it's good for plants then I don't get it lol.
> 
> Yes, the plants are growing and not dying but there not growing properly. If you take a look at the pictures the pinched leaf tips shouldn't be occurring under normal circumstances.
> 
> And yes you read the substrate correct. It was a huge rookie mistake and I was too anxious to just dirt my tank. It was originally 3" of dirt and 1" of sand but it was gassing so much I shut the tank down and ripped out a full large freezer bag full of dirt but looking back on it I should have taken a few of those bags out  I'm moving in less than 3 weeks which is why I'll be tearing down my tank and starting over but I want to find out what I'm doing wrong now.


I think you're misunderstanding some basic concepts. Ammonia comes from decomposing organic matter, whether that's fish waste or soil. The nitrogen cycle turns ammonia into nitrate. This is important because ammonia is toxic to fish. However, ammonia and nitrate are both sources of nitrogen for plants.

So if your tank is cycled, any ammonia produced by your soil will be turned into relatively harmless nitrates. Since you only have 5ppm nitrates, that means either your ammonia remove is working really well, or it's not releasing that much ammonia in the first place. Either way, your plants needs a nitrogen source to grow.

The concern about a soil substrate is NOT ammonia. It is anaerobic decomposition producing toxic methane bubbles, also known as sewer gas. If that's happening in your tank, an ammonia remover is not going to help!

Finally, plants exhibit a variety of behavior, some of which can be perfectly normal. The idea of a low-tech tank is to allow nature to take its own course, with a minimum of intervention on the part of the aquarist.

Now it is possible that your plants are indeed deficient in some nutrients, so I would take out the ammonia remover first. However, it's also possible that your plants are simply going through an adaptation phase, so just wait and see.


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

TorontoPlantMan said:


> Hey Charlie1 thanks for the response. I've been using the ammonia pad in my filter because I made a rookie mistake of using too much dirt in my tank...as a result I get excess gas that arises from the substrate. I'm confused though as to why my plants would be starved by having the ammonia pad? Forgive my lack of knowledge but do plants take up the excess ammonia in our tank?
> 
> The carbon has been removed from the tank for roughly 8 days now so thats not long an issue.
> 
> *The plants being affected right now are not plants which require CO2 so that confuses me greatly.* I just don't want to go out and buy a bunch of different nutrients only for them not to work, which is why I really wanna find out what's going on.


you are getting good detailed info from solarz, some of it can be a debated but nevertheless it`s good general info.
The bolded statement is a common misunderstanding, any living plant needs carbon, it`s the largest composition of the plant ( think approx. 60%?), when carbon is not naturally available to sustain growth in the tank
, we need to supplement it CO 2 is just the easiest transport of Carbon.
Think about this - since a large part of plant tissue structure is carbon, what do you think would happen when the plant is trying to grow & the basic building block is missing?
Again I`m not saying it`s 100% your issue, but I have a feeling it`s the source issue.


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

solarz said:


> I think you're misunderstanding some basic concepts. Ammonia comes from decomposing organic matter, whether that's fish waste or soil. The nitrogen cycle turns ammonia into nitrate. This is important because ammonia is toxic to fish. However, ammonia and nitrate are both sources of nitrogen for plants.
> 
> So if your tank is cycled, any ammonia produced by your soil will be turned into relatively harmless nitrates. Since you only have 5ppm nitrates, that means either your ammonia remove is working really well, or it's not releasing that much ammonia in the first place. Either way, your plants needs a nitrogen source to grow.
> 
> ...


I extremely appreciate your input. I have a much better understanding of those basic concepts now, thank you. I do have the bubbles which come out of my substrate but to my knowledge (based on questions asked on planted tank.net) all dirtied tanks are going to produce that toxic methane bubble and all you can do is poke the substrate to help relieve it. Maybe I'm misinformed but if I am then please educate me.

So moving forward...If I do remove the ammonia pad is this going to lower my nitrates even further? or mess up the cycle at all? roughly last week I removed the carbon pad so I don't know if it's okay to take away that much media at once?

Thank you again Solarz


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

charlie1 said:


> you are getting good detailed info from solarz, some of it can be a debated but nevertheless it`s good general info.
> The bolded statement is a common misunderstanding, any living plant needs carbon, it`s the largest composition of the plant ( think approx. 60%?), when carbon is not naturally available to sustain growth in the tank
> , we need to supplement it CO 2 is just the easiest transport of Carbon.
> Think about this - since a large part of plant tissue structure is carbon, what do you think would happen when the plant is trying to grow & the basic building block is missing?
> Again I`m not saying it`s 100% your issue, but I have a feeling it`s the source issue.


Unfortunately I just simply don't have the money right now to drop $400 on a solid pressurized co2 set up. I don't want to waste the money and buy some cheap single stage regulator and the cheapest I've been able to source for a dual stage has been $190, so even once I get the tank (10lb- $110) thats $300 without the solenoid, needle valve, inline diffuser, canister filter, so on and so forth. As a starving student, thats like a years worth of food right there  Is excel an option at all? Or no really economical on a 37 gallon?

Thank you


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

TorontoPlantMan said:


> I extremely appreciate your input. I have a much better understanding of those basic concepts now, thank you. I do have the bubbles which come out of my substrate but to my knowledge (based on questions asked on planted tank.net) all dirtied tanks are going to produce that toxic methane bubble and all you can do is poke the substrate to help relieve it. Maybe I'm misinformed but if I am then please educate me.
> 
> So moving forward...If I do remove the ammonia pad is this going to lower my nitrates even further? or mess up the cycle at all? roughly last week I removed the carbon pad so I don't know if it's okay to take away that much media at once?
> 
> Thank you again Solarz


Usually, you should only have 1/2" to 1" of dirt topped by 3" of sand. You've got the reverse, so toxic methane bubbles could very well be a concern. You should keep up with the manual poking until you move in 3 weeks.

Removing the ammonia pad won't do any harm, I would put the carbon back in. It won't help a lot, but it might offset small amounts of toxic anaerobic gas.



TorontoPlantMan said:


> Unfortunately I just simply don't have the money right now to drop $400 on a solid pressurized co2 set up. I don't want to waste the money and buy some cheap single stage regulator and the cheapest I've been able to source for a dual stage has been $190, so even once I get the tank (10lb- $110) thats $300 without the solenoid, needle valve, inline diffuser, canister filter, so on and so forth. As a starving student, thats like a years worth of food right there  Is excel an option at all? Or no really economical on a 37 gallon?
> 
> Thank you


Excel is indeed an option, though I've never used it myself. Make sure you follow the instructions, as an overdose can be bad.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I have a couple things. 

First, a 37 gallon is a high tank. That same light system on a 20 long would be high light, on a 37 gallon its low or maybe close to medium light.

Get rid of the ammonia remover thingy, waste of money and not needed. This might help raise your nitrates a bit, which is the next thing.

5 ppm nitrates is pretty low. One possible problem you have is low nitrates. I like to see nitrates between 10 and 20 personally. I have a tank that has bottomed out on nitrates, right at 0 and the plants are curling and not doing so great. I am working on a couple things to help this, one was adding more fish for more waste for more nitrates, the next thing I need to do is remove some extra plants. Maybe do your water changes to keep nitrates between 10 and 20.

those bad air pockets can kill fish if they build up too much. when I remove a fair number of plants, I have to do a 50 percent water change right away or I lose a couple fish.

It could also just be that the plants are still getting used to the new environment.

One other thing to consider is the age of the bulbs. Bulbs are usually only good for a year at the very max, most say 6 to 9 months. After this, they start to lose some of the good stuff that the plants need.

And it might be a combination of all the things people have said


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## Jesurex (Oct 6, 2011)

maybe you need a DIY co2 system?


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

pyrrolin said:


> I have a couple things.
> 
> *First, a 37 gallon is a high tank. That same light system on a 20 long would be high light, on a 37 gallon its low or maybe close to medium light.*Get rid of the ammonia remover thingy, waste of money and not needed. This might help raise your nitrates a bit, which is the next thing.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree, I think a 37 gallon tank is only 22 inches high.
We know that the OP has a substrate bed of 3 inches, that leaves us with a depth of 19 inches. A 2x 24 watt T5 HO fixture with decent reflectors is good enough to grow your most light demanding plants.
OP another option is to raise the fixture thereby decreasing the light intensity , this will significantly reduce the nutrient requirement including carbon.
They are options for low cost co2, angel fins now sell a kit for DIY co2 send them a message & they will gladly inform you & no it`s not the sugar & yeast although very similar.
This link will explain it much better than I can, scroll to the bottom of the page for video & details.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-aquariu...884?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acc8ca394.

There is also the paint ball set up that a few people use here.
Regards


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## Reckon (Mar 6, 2013)

pyrrolin said:


> Get rid of the ammonia remover thingy, waste of money and not needed. This might help raise your nitrates a bit, which is the next thing.
> 
> 5 ppm nitrates is pretty low. One possible problem you have is low nitrates. I like to see nitrates between 10 and 20 personally. I have a tank that has bottomed out on nitrates, right at 0 and the plants are curling and not doing so great. I am working on a couple things to help this, one was adding more fish for more waste for more nitrates, the next thing I need to do is remove some extra plants. Maybe do your water changes to keep nitrates between 10 and 20.


I agree with what is said above. Crypts typically aren't as demanding when it comes to nutrients. Nevertheless, you still need to provide the right balance of all the nutrients. Recall that light is the driver for how fast your plants grow and require nutrients, adding CO2 allows plants to synthesize what it needs, thus also driving the plants to grow faster, as such you need to increase absorbable nutrients for your plants. Crypts tend to be root feeders but that doesn't mean that they can't take up nutrients via leaves and through the water column. I keep several fast growing CO2 required stem plants and I ensure my nitrate levels are around 40ppm. I think a good place to start is bumping your nitrates up a bit and see how your plants respond.


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

charlie1 said:


> I respectfully disagree, I think a 37 gallon tank is only 22 inches high.
> We know that the OP has a substrate bed of 3 inches, that leaves us with a depth of 19 inches. A 2x 24 watt T5 HO fixture with decent reflectors is good enough to grow your most light demanding plants.
> OP another option is to raise the fixture thereby decreasing the light intensity , this will significantly reduce the nutrient requirement including carbon.
> They are options for low cost co2, angel fins now sell a kit for DIY co2 send them a message & they will gladly inform you & no it`s not the sugar & yeast although very similar.
> ...


I was going to say...My tank is definitely not low light. It is very tall but mind you my substrate is quite high like Charlie1 stated. I have very low ground plants like DHG and S.Repens and many others which require lots of light, yet are still growing with just 62 watts on a 37 gallon. Anywho, DIY CO2 is not going to happen on this tank lol I've done it on my 10 gallon and it's just a waste of time, it's far too much a hassle to change it every 2 weeks and you NEVER get a consistent batch or bubble count. I'm just saving for the pressurized one and we'll hope that works.

But for now I've removed the ammonia pad as well as per everyones recommendations. I'll have to keep a close eye on the tank to see how it responds. Thanks everyone.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

yeah, you guys are right, dual t5ho over a 37 would not be low light. In this case probably high light or at the very min medium light. I wouldn't put plants that demand very high light into a 37 gallon myself.

I have used the same fixture over two different tanks, one a 15 gallon which I believe is about 12 high and the other a 25 gallon which is about 16 inches high. I had massive pearling in the 15 gallon, but very little in the 25 gallon. Just a few inches of height can make a big difference.

I have a 5.5 gallon setup with just a single t8 over it and the couple plants I have in it are growing great.

People often forget the effect tank height has on quality of light and only look at wpg which means very little these days.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

I dont know if this is a viable option for you but if you are strapped for cash and still want to do a co2 injection, try the paintball co2. seriously, its rather cheap. one 20 oz paintball can is 30 bucks, the asa adapter cost me 20 bucks with shipping (no gauge on it) the watts needle valves was 5 bucks and the tubing was... well...free  So the total comes to 60 bucks with the purchase of some tubing and threading tape. Oh, and if you have extra pvc tubing around, you can build yourself a reactor. You have to refill the can every month and a half but it beats 2 weeks of inconsistent nonsense.


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

Kimchi24 said:


> I dont know if this is a viable option for you but if you are strapped for cash and still want to do a co2 injection, try the paintball co2. seriously, its rather cheap. one 20 oz paintball can is 30 bucks, the asa adapter cost me 20 bucks with shipping (no gauge on it) the watts needle valves was 5 bucks and the tubing was... well...free  So the total comes to 60 bucks with the purchase of some tubing and threading tape. Oh, and if you have extra pvc tubing around, you can build yourself a reactor. You have to refill the can every month and a half but it beats 2 weeks of inconsistent nonsense.


The one I made reference to earlier in this thread ( DIY kit for 22.00) is cheaper & ten times better that the old sugar & yeast mix where you had inconsistent co2 .
It can be adjusted to maintain consistent delivery, it works on negative pressure to draw one ingredient into the other bottle creating more gas.
I was able to see it demonstrated when DRAS had Joseph do a presentation recently.


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

This thread seems to have gotten away from the original issue. The plants are nice and green and their is no algae. In fact it looks like it was just set up. Since it is a planted tank, I would remove the ammonia pad as well as the carbon because they are likely what is removing all the nutrients, and that is likely what is curling the leaves. Do that, then wait a couple of months and see what happens.

As for the lights, the plants are green so their must be enough. I don't think it is high light because the bulbs are 1 roseate, and 1 10K. Great for showing off the tetra's but could be better for plants.

My guess is the most important ingredient need here is patience.

Lee


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

Hey guys, 

I'm not a fan of DIY CO2 or paintball. To be paintball is just going to end up being a waste as I already know I want to get a full pressurized set up. I'd rather save the money and put it towards something I'll only have to purchase once (knock on wood lol). 

I've taken everyone's suggestions and removed the Ammonia and Carbon pad and for now I'll just have to wait and see. Thing's are now going from bad to worse as my S.Repens used to be bright green but after I trimmed it all the leaves are turning yellow (lack of nutrients) so I'm not too sure what to do. I put a root tab there but no results at all.

I think LeeD might be with when he says "the most important ingredient here might be patience" we'll just have to wait and see. I am going to try getting my hands on some potassium and see if that helps at all though.


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## 12273 (Nov 3, 2012)

Hey! 

I was gonna suggest many things in this thread but people have it covered! . If it makes you feel better the crypts you sold me are curling too and I'm not worried about it at all! 

My Co2 system cost me about $200 and I'm happy with it. It's a 5 pound cylinder and goes forever. I don't crank it up for the crypts and maybe I'm at 1 bubble per second. My needle hasn't moved on my gauge in months. It lasts forever once you have it. 

I also use flourish root tabs. I put 10 in my 46 gallon and the plants grew like mad after. Plus these tabs don't need replacing for like 4 months or so. So they say. But since adding tabs my plants went nuts. I also diffuse the light with salvinia floating plant and they seem to like it! I run 2 39w T5HO 36" if that helps you. 

They were slow but now have taken off. It also took a few months. When did I buy those plants from you? In the summer? That's how long it took. Just in the last couple weeks I've noticed a huge boom in growth. 



Sent from my iPhone with auto correct. Can't you tell?


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

aquaman1 said:


> Hey!
> 
> I was gonna suggest many things in this thread but people have it covered! . If it makes you feel better the crypts you sold me are curling too and I'm not worried about it at all!
> 
> ...


Hey Aquaman1 whats up!! What kind of regulator are you using on your CO2 setup? Single stage or dual?

I'm gonna try a different brand of root tabs and see how that works out for me, I'm thinking that because there are so many big root feeders within such close distance of each other it's become a pure competition for nutrients.

The Crypt's you got off me was in the summer yes, do you have any updated pictures of you tank I'd love to see how everything's grown in.

So far after following everyone's suggestions (except CO2) there's been no difference but it's a waiting game so it'll probably take a few months before anything happens.


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## 12273 (Nov 3, 2012)

Hey man check these out! That's the regulator I have. A cylinder at praxair will be $155 filled and $32 after that. But one fill will last forever

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c378121399/p17160403.html

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c378121399/p17694657.html

Sent from my iPhone with auto correct. Can't you tell?


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

aquaman1 said:


> Hey man check these out! That's the regulator I have. A cylinder at praxair will be $155 filled and $32 after that. But one fill will last forever
> 
> http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c378121399/p17160403.html
> 
> ...


With a single stage regulator aren't you worried about an "end of tank dump"? That's what worries with me with the single stage ones


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## 12273 (Nov 3, 2012)

Never had an issue. Once it get low just get a fill up! . The solenoid also hooks up to a timer. 

If you have fish it can be an issue. No fish no issues. And unless you have a really great reactor the co2 will dump in your tank and the gas bubbles will and should escape the the water at the surface. 

If you want I can show you how to make a reactor for $20. Mine is great and 100% dissolve 


Sent from my iPhone with auto correct. Can't you tell?


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## 12273 (Nov 3, 2012)

Here's a few pics

Also, try excel. Great to control algae and gives a form of carbon for the plants to use. Better than nothing right now.






































Sent from my iPhone with auto correct. Can't you tell?


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Some plants just need time and then boom, they go nuts


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

**Update**

Things have only gotten worse after removing the ammonia and carbon pad. The rosefolia is melting at a pretty rapid rate. I don't even understand why it's happening, I used to have no problems with this plant. The crypts are doing fine, opening but very slowly. Other plants are starting to yellow and show signs of nutrient deficiency. I find it weird how this just all of a sudden happened, especially when everything finally just seemed to balance out


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

I'm having the same problem with my rosifolia as well. The leaves are covered in BBA and is curling. Plus the thing has grown ago one inch in the past two months. Talk about slow growth. I'm on the same page as you plantman


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

Kimchi24 said:


> I'm having the same problem with my rosifolia as well. The leaves are covered in BBA and is curling. Plus the thing has grown ago one inch in the past two months. Talk about slow growth. I'm on the same page as you plantman


I feel your pain Kimchi24, Not really having any algae issues just melting and curling. Also veryyy slow growth compared to what it used to be. The more and more I think about this I have 2 theories which I think may be the root cause..

1. 1 of the bulbs I'm using now is getting close to 5 months where as the other is around 8-9 months. Maybe they are not adapting to the change in lower light.?

2. I've propagated the S*** out of these plants, I remember just getting them once a week & making more and more of it and selling some, I'm starting to think the more you do this the weaker the plant becomes?

I'm not too sure, but I really need to get to the bottom of this or I'm going to lose all my plants and I really don't have another couple hundred dollars to spend on plants again lmao


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

I have dirted tank as well. I don't have test kits but I've noticed something weird after I set up the tank, the plants that were growing fine up to that point then they started to melt. Even the polysperma, amazon sword (leafs melted), val were melted. This incident happened about 6-7 months after the incident and lasted for about a month maybe two. I saw dead leaves floating on the top all the time. These days, the tank is back to itself. I still have some green hair algae but its not that much.

I know it not much maybe something happens after few months like sulfate or phospate level goes up or something. I don't know but its something to keep in mind. I stopped adding yeast CO2 because i thought it could contributing since i can't control amount of CO2 in the tank any given time.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

Luckily for me it is just my rosifolia. None of mine is melting but the leaves are curling. It might be a nutrient deficiency but of what I don't know. I have good growth with my other plants, the roseifolia is the only suffering plant while all of your plants are suffering.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

Kimchi24 said:


> Luckily for me it is just my rosifolia. None of mine is melting but the leaves are curling. It might be a nutrient deficiency but of what I don't know. I have good growth with my other plants, the roseifolia is the only suffering plant while all of your plants are suffering.


that's weird for me then. My lights maybe problem as well. How much Co2 do you have? maybe its the lack of CO2 that is causing your problems.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

GAT said:


> that's weird for me then. My lights maybe problem as well. How much Co2 do you have? maybe its the lack of CO2 that is causing your problems.


I run a dual t5ho with a paintball co2 setup running at 3-5 bubbles per second during the day and 1-2 bubbles per second in the morning and evening. I'm eventually changing it to 1-2 bubbles a second due to lower lighting. I had 4 t5hos before


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

I went to my LFS and spoke with two reputable hobbyist's who advised me this may be an iron issue. I'm going to be experimenting with dosing just iron and see how the results are. Right now almost all the leaves have turned transparent on the underside, then developing to the upper side/entire leaf. I might end up having to cut the plant back fairly far in order to start fresh.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

One small suggestion. If part of the problem is a shortage of carbon, from what I understand, you aren't using Excel now, right ? Plus you're saving to get a CO2 system ?

In the meantime, you could add much needed carbon to the tank for a lot less money than Excel or other similar products. You can get a much cheaper supply of the same product from a dental supply company. The active ingredient in Excel is glutaraldehyde, and this is also used as a cold sterilizing agent for surgical tools, mainly by dentists, so it is sold by dental supply companies.

The product you get for dental use is a lot more concentrated than Excel, so you dilute it so it's the same as Excel. It's much cheaper to start with and by the time you dilute it, it's even cheaper than that. I know a guy who used it with great success and when my current bottle of Excel runs out, this is what I will get, as I have no wish to try DIY CO2 on my 5g tank, though I'm going to try it on my larger tanks.

The glutaraldehyde from a dental supply place may come with a small bottle of another chemical. If so, discard the smaller second container, it's only used by the dentist and is not needed when using the chemical to supply carbon to plants.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

regarding the CO2 yeast method, its great but it becomes lot of work afterwards. I did it for few months then i get bored and stop keeping up with it. Pressurized CO2 is probably best but costs like 200 bucks.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

hm thats strange considering i have flourite substrate which is baked clay LOL. I know you run with dirt and sand so that may work for you. Maybe flourite isnt as good as i thought it was .


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

Fishfur said:


> One small suggestion. If part of the problem is a shortage of carbon, from what I understand, you aren't using Excel now, right ? Plus you're saving to get a CO2 system ?
> 
> In the meantime, you could add much needed carbon to the tank for a lot less money than Excel or other similar products. You can get a much cheaper supply of the same product from a dental supply company. The active ingredient in Excel is glutaraldehyde, and this is also used as a cold sterilizing agent for surgical tools, mainly by dentists, so it is sold by dental supply companies.
> 
> ...


No Co2, no excel but as far as I know glutaraldehyde isn't available to the public? or is it? because I don't think my dentist would be down to sell me some considering the majority of people use it for beating drug tests  I'm going to be selling a bunch of personal items soon to buy a real CO2 setup, hopefully this will help, it's just the damn regulator that costs so much. Thank you for your help


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I must confess I have never tried to buy glutaraldehyde, but I know someone who has done so. I think he is a policeman, though I am not certain, but if he is, it might be why he could get it if it's restricted at all. I've never heard of it being connected to drug testing.. that's a totally new one to me.

So far as I know, there are no legal restrictions to stop anyone buying it from dental supply houses.. but I suppose some of them might not care to deal with individual buyers.. many wholesalers do not deal with the general public, but some do. Might take a bit of looking to find one. I was planning on doing that, actually.

Meantime, good luck on saving up for what you want.


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