# potting soil choices



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I am not sure what potting soil I should get, I was going to use the stuff I got before from a dollar store but they don't have it now.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/mir...trenbspnbspnbspnbspnbspnbspnbspnbspnbs/917488 this one recommended?

or do I need to go with

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/miracle-gro-organic-choice-potting-mix-283l/969906

The first one will require extra cycling it seems, but that isn't a problem.

tried searching here for what people have used but can't find exactly what im looking for.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

ok, finally found it, its the second one I linked.

Just a couple questions on amounts and capping

I am pretty sure I'm going to use some natural looking gravel I have laying around to cap it.

This application will be for a 15 gallon tank

what is the recommended depth of soil, put in dry that is. And what is the recommended depth of gravel on top of it?

Also, would a very thin layer of play sand or some other sand be good for between the soil and gravel to help keep the soil down?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Though I've never been interested in doing a dirt tank myself, I've read of folks using Miracle Grow. I always wondered about all the fertilizer that the manufacturer adds to it though.. what effect that would have on fish ? But I suppose by the time it cycles, the ferts would have dissolved into the water, more or less.

I wish I knew if sand was useful as a cap.. I've seen it mentioned but can't remember in what context.

I don't think I'd use potting soil from a dollar store. I would not trust what was in it. Some I've seen have been mainly crumbled clay dust that more or less turns into rock in pots. In a tank this would not happen, but it's usually crap stuff anyway.. not quality. Same reason I don't buy the, pardon the pun, dirt cheap 'topsoil' that appears in pallets full at every grocery store this time of year. Don't trust it because it's usually too cheap. Only thing I'd use it for would be if I had a big compost pile and needed to layer it with some soil and had none.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Also, would http://www.homedepot.ca/product/miracle-groltsupgtreglt-supgt-all-purpose-680g/942198 be safe to use for aquariums?

I am thinking of two ways to use it, as a thin bottom layer for this 15 gallon Im planning, under the potting soil.

Also, could I just add a little bit to my established tanks, just tossing it in the water?


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

its the one from 2nd link. You need the once that says organic potting mix. 

as for sand as substrate, someone said it might sink to the bottom or mix with the dirt. I cap it with gravel from big and it works well. I have yellow tint to my water but I think its from the wood not the soil. I haven't had any death due to the soil because after i transferred the fish i haven't had any death in the tank. Recently, I am dealing with fish death but i think its from the shitty harelquin rasbora i bought from big als. 

Plants grow very fast and they look healthy. Removing plants or changing decorations are very hard but i've pulled plants out without messing up the water.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

No! Don't toss it in the water. It's very concentrated and if it contacted a fish or shrimp before it dissolved and dispersed and became diluted, it might kill them. If you want to use it, dissolve it in water completely first and be careful of dosage. Also be aware these types of ferts contain some kind of colouring agent. I don't know what it is, nor if it is safe for shrimp or fish. They're not designed for feeding aquatic plants.

That formula on the package of Miracle Grow is also very high in nitrogen for a dry fert, meant to grow a lot of green foliage quickly, rather than flowers.. which is what you want, but again, meant for terrestrial use, not aquatic.

Here's a link to a PDF of the label..
http://www.scotts.ca/smg/CA/product.../pdf/WS All Purpose 24-8-16 1.36 kg Label.pdf

I don't think I'd use it for my tanks, but that's me. Label does not appear to list the dye agent, but this formula has a fair bit of copper in it, .07%, and if you have inverts, it might be too much for them to tolerate.

If you want to save money on ferts, get the dry ones from a hydroponic place and use them instead. Much cheaper than using something liquid from Seachem or other manufacturers, but safer than this stuff is likely to be.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi pyrrolin, I sir can help you in this areaa little bit. Even though solarz has a cooler method but mind works too 

For my setup with Mgro i did not sift the wood chunks out. Though you can so there would be less break down of dead matter in the soil. Take your soil drop about 1-1.5 inches into your tank soak it but not super wet just enough to keep it moist. Add amaco red clay (i dont remember why but i read about it and its a goodie, something about being positive or negative charged attracting all the bad stuff to it something something). I added about 5 pounds to 48 gallon tank size so you can do the math for your tank as i flunked mine. mix clay with soil then cap with 1-1.5in gravel for the ratio of 1:1. if you use more gravel it hinders the plants imho as its harder to reach the goodness at the bottom. that was my method but using soil like lots of others say is a plant and leave alone style. if you yank it out the anearobic gases will kill fauna. Also i would fill the tank let it sit for a few days after you cap it and drain it a few times. It gives off lots of tannins initially.

for solarz method here it is http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

He capped it with sand but i would definitely use gravel as it allows for more gases to pass out of the soil but that is personal preferences.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

for capping, sand is not teh best choice because anerobic bacteria really mess it up. teh bubbles burst and a lot of debris lands on your sand which looks bad. also the bubbles are bad for your fish. i like to go with flourite black. its small and ive had no problem with ti so far. sift out teh sticks beforeadding the soil though


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Is the clay available at any big box stores? Also, is it dry or wet clay? Do you mix it with the soil or layer it on top?

I am in Kingston so the only stores that are the same are the big ones.

Thanks for the tips.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

if you have a michael's near you, you can pick up a box of amaco mexican self hardening clay.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

My main tank (35 gal) has it capped with gravel. No issues whatsoever with that one regarding soil. Stuck dabs of amaco clay on the glass bottom, then put in the soil, then the gravel. This being my first attempt i put in too much gravel (2+ inches to cover 2+ inches of soil 1:1 ratio). Plants had a hard time initially to penetrate the gravel. Nevertheless, i didn't have a single fish die due to substrate leeching issues. I have guppies in that tank, and mts. The water tints for 2-3 months, but I like the water with tannins, and it didn't seem to bother the fish at all.

In a smaller 10 gal tank I capped the miracle gro with play sand. I had MTS in that tank as well. No issues. The water didn't tan much (as less penetrates through the denser sand cap). Occasionally, I do see a small bubble or two when i uproot plants. It has been going since February. 
There were no nitrate or ammonia spikes caused by substrate leeching, for both caps.

I tried a 15 gal with miracle gro capped with playsand. This one, I let sit for a week before adding ANY livestock. Just water, plants, and filter. On the sixth day, my tank literally flowed soil like lava. Huge bubbles brought all the soil up into the water column, and the sand sunk down. It was a disaster. 

Given a choice, I'd say go for a gravel cap, but no more than an inch of gravel. The plants that throw runners will have a very hard time otherwise.

Al.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Listen to these guys, they've been through it!

I just want to point out a website with step by step guides if you're interested in the Walstad method. Basically low tech, no fert, no CO2, low maintenance, soil based planted setup.

I said to myself I would never do dirt setup again, but I am here talking. I am in the process of setting a pico size low tech planted setup using the Walstad method.

I won't be using Miracle Gro as mentioned everywhere and anywhere when a dirt setup is mentioned. I am going to use cheap potting soil - most likely from CT whose components will be very similar to MGO. Price will be halved, but for the amount used, it's not a big deal.

I just want to prove that MGO is or not "the say all end all" soil.

I looked up the ingredient in MGO soils and it is essentially 50% peat moss, with the remainder being composted bark, perlite, wetting agent, and NPK fert. Most of the other potting soils have similar composition.

I read also that MGO quality varies from location to location, and the "old" MGO is of much better than the MGO being sold today. These are second hand information so take that with a grain of salt. All is available if you care and have the time to google.

In term of safe, I am going to hypothesize that as long as the setup is 1" soil and 1" gravel, most potting soil should be ok. I would myself steer away from component such as manure, and dropping, etc!

I hope you setup work out and look forward to seeing the development!


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

a good size bag of the miracle grow is only 10 bucks, so that price isn't a problem, I'll have lots left over for other tanks.

I have a michaels nearby, so I should be able to get the clay.

Question now is how to use the clay. One person put it on the very bottom of the tank. Other options are mixed with the soil or over the soil. What is the best way?


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Just checked the michaels website, could the clay be under a different name? I can't find it online.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I don't want to try the walstad method of not using a conventional filter yet, but I will be using the ideas from that method for the substrate.

I have had a small taste of what happens without a filter to move the water at the very least. I have a 5.5 gal tank with an AC20 turned all the way down because it has a betta in it. When I didn't have the filter positioned in just the right spot in the tank, I had bad water circulation in some areas which greatly contributed to BGA problems which is now fine after adjusting the placement of the filter. If I were to try filterless system, I would still want some kind of circulation pump, so then I might as well use a filter for the extra mechanical and bio filtration in my opinion.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

I think you needle some form of water movement, even with walstad approach.

Btw, how was dollar store soil when you used it?


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Michaels does not have it online its a store only product


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I wouldn't use any soil with the word organic in it. I also wouldn't use a soil with perilte. For my one attempt, after reading about the mineralized soil method on the planted tank forum, was to use top soil. In fact, I dug a little deeper to get the poorer quality soil below. I them mixed it about 50/50 with gravel and put about a 1" layer on the bottom of the tank. I dusted this with peat moss and capped with 1.5" of gravel.That tank has been set up for about 6 or 7 years now, although it is getting near time to tear down and reseal.
I came to the conclusion that mineralization wouldn't be needed with poor top soil, or better yet, subsoil. My soil has a high level of clay, although it isn't the high iron red clay. I use the same mix when I put plants in pots. I don't think it is necessary to have a pure soil portion in the pot. Some people will add nails or plain steel washers to the soil to add iron. I may actually have added some nails to my tank, but don't recall. There was no tinting of the water.
The other side of the coin is the tank I have with plain gravel where I grew several thousand chain swords., and is now choked with vals. Both tanks are 48" x 12" x 12" ( 30 gal) tanks I built in 1992. The soil tank had a single T8 and the soiless tank a shoplight with 2 T8s. The soil tank has a single AC150, and the gravel tank two #5 Hydrosponges.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I would certainly agree with BillD on the topic of perlite. If your soil has perlite, it will work its way up and out and then float.. it does this even in pots, very annoying. It is extremely light and porous, being highly expanded and full of air, much like natural pumice is. It's good for succulents, but I get mighty tired of the way it migrates to the surface of a pot over time.

Organic soils frequently have a lot of ingredients that were composted; crab shells, manures, assorted other organics. They may not be so good for tanks if the composting process is not complete. They could provide a source of various & concentrated bacteria if not totally composted. While that would be good in a garden, might not be in a tank.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

you talking about those white balls of what I always thought were Styrofoam? If so, I hate those, if that potting soil has those I will be removing it.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

miracle grow organic potting mix (the orange bag) doesn't have those white balls.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Bill, I am considering going your route with the top soil. Is there a reason why you dust the peat and not mix them? Also, what was the motivation mixing the gravel with the soil?

Do you have a photo of your tank somewhere? What are you growing in the top soil tanks?

Thanks!


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

I think the logic with the gravel mixed in with soil is the same as using fired harden clay mixed in with soil. Bacteria needs a surface to grow and multiply on and gravel or the hardened clay is quite porous.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Speaking of white balls in potting mix.. strangely enough, it might be either or both styrofoam and perlite. Styro sucks bigtime, as far as I'm concerned. It's far too lightweight and does not hold any water. It does perform somewhat like perlite in a mix, in that it can help maintain drainage with little weight added. But it will also work it's way upward in a pot 'til it hits the surface, where it will wash away if too much water is applied.. or simply blow away in the wind.

They use it in some mixes because it's a pain to recycle. Chopping it up and using it in potting mix is easier than taking it back to raw material. If you take a piece in your fingers, it feels a bit greasy, like plastic, and if squeezed, it will compress and then bounce back a bit. I think it's just a messy nuisance.

Perlite might be mistaken for styro simply by looking at it, but if you take a piece of perlite in your fingers, it feels hard and grainy and will become very gritty dust if crushed. Avoid breathing perlite dust.. not lung friendly. Thanks to the micro porous structure, it holds a lot of water, which styro does not, so it aids both drainage and water retention in a potting mix. 

Perlite particles get smaller with time, due to mechanical breakdown, but it does the same thing as styro, which is work it's way up and out. It has its uses a soil amendment but for a tank it would be a disaster. Stryo would be just as bad and removing either one from a mix would be exceedingly tedious. I doubt you'd ever get it all, even if you soaked the mix to the point the stuff mostly floated and could be scooped out. Then you'd have a pail of muddy slop and probably still find floaty bits from time to time afterward. Just be sure any mix you choose contains neither of these ingredients.


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