# cherry ystery dieings



## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

I have cherries in my community planted tank. medium sized ones at about 5/8 inches that are dieing. i have found 4 in the last month all this size. 

I have just checked my readings and tank was set up in january 2013 but i added cherries march 2013

Ammo: 0 (hard to read but under the light it doesnt look like the .25 green)
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
ph:7.6
kh: 5 (it was at 7 before)
gh: 9 

when i pick the shrimp up i see no foul play from the fishes. the shrimp looks intact and my fish have very small mouths as they are cardinals, glowlight rasboras, ruby tetras and gold white clouds. I do turn on my koralia 425gph in the 4 ft tank every now and then for an hour or 2 could the strong flow have some how hurt them?

anyone experience this before? i drip acclimatized them fore about 45mins and netted them into to tank.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Are you certain the tank cycled ? Did you get ammonia readings, followed by a nitrite spike, followed by readings for nitrate ? Did you use pure ammonia to cycle or some other method ? Were there ANY other animals in that tank while it was cycling, or only plants ? When did you add the plants ?

If it did not actually cycle, maybe what you're seeing is a low ammonia reading and nothing else because there aren't enough bacteria to convert the ammonia to anything else. If there are a lot of plants, they may be using up some of the ammonia, as it need not be converted for plants to use it. 

If it's for certain that it cycled, then I'd wonder if something has happened that killed off the bacteria. If so, you need to cycle it again. 

If that's not it, then I would think the shrimp are having moulting problems because the water isn't hard enough. I know when I test for GH, it's much, much higher than that. Pretty much as high as the test goes. Kh is also much higher than yours, and I keep more than 9 different species of shrimp. This includes Neos like cherries, and a bunch of others too. I use only Mississauga tap water, conditioned, and nothing else. It's not all that different from Toronto tap water.

It is unusual that you have a zero nitrate reading.. a cycled tank should have some nitrates in it, unless it is so heavily planted and has so few animals in it that the plants are using up ALL the nitrates, or perhaps ammonia, if it isn't cycled at this point.

Do the shrimp seem soft when you touch them ? Try poking the side of the shell when you hold a dead shrimp on it's side. If it pushes in easily, it had a moulting issue. The shell should be pretty firm feeling and not dent in easily. 

Maybe add one of those remineralizer products to increase the calcium ? If you are using RO water, you may not have added enough remineralizer to it. Or if you use RO for these guys, might be better for them to switch to all tap water instead.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

Fishfur thank you for your detailed response

My tank is cycled, but i did pull out some vals the day before my shrimp died. It is a dirt tank. i have had the spikes. my nitrates are zero due to low bioload and you can see my tank in my signature it is moderately planted with lots of stem plants.



> Do the shrimp seem soft when you touch them ? Try poking the side of the shell when you hold a dead shrimp on it's side. If it pushes in easily, it had a moulting issue. The shell should be pretty firm feeling and not dent in easily.


However this statement is spot on. My kh in my tank use to be 7-8 i have no idea why it is at 5kh now. I will test my homes tap water once i get home today as i only use that for my tanks. when i picked up my dead shrimp they are very soft and squishy. What remineralizing product should i use? I have not had a water change in my dirt tank for 3 weeks and counting could that have caused my kh to drop? As i have read and to my understanding dirt tanks dont need frequent water changes just a regular top off from the evaporation.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

xriddler said:


> However this statement is spot on. My kh in my tank use to be 7-8 i have no idea why it is at 5kh now. I will test my homes tap water once i get home today as i only use that for my tanks. when i picked up my dead shrimp they are very soft and squishy. What remineralizing product should i use? I have not had a water change in my dirt tank for 3 weeks and counting could that have caused my kh to drop? As i have read and to my understanding dirt tanks dont need frequent water changes just a regular top off from the evaporation.


If your shrimp has died long enough for its flesh to turn white, then soft and squishy is normal.

Toronto should all be using the same tap water, unless there's something special about your pipes.

The main things to look out for are copper and pesticides.

What kind of substrates are you using? Do you add any new plants to the tank? Did you add anything like lucky bamboos?


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

no lucky bamboos, and no new plants just removed nana vals

My substrate is miracle gro organic potting soil capped with gravel. It really is a mystery to why my shrimps are dieing.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

xriddler said:


> no lucky bamboos, and no new plants just removed nana vals
> 
> My substrate is miracle gro organic potting soil capped with gravel. It really is a mystery to why my shrimps are dieing.


Did the soil come in a gold bag? If so, this is ingredients tag:










Can an experience shrimpers comments on if any of these are goods? I believe shrimps has very low tolerance toward Ammonia and Nitrate.

Peat moss will lower kH hence pH if the system is not stable.

How deep is the soil and gravel? Other issues may arise if soil is not used correctly.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

it is this miracle gro. soil is 1.5-2 inches, gravel is 1.5-2 inches also. 

my soil was left open in the tank for 2 days before capping and it was kept moist. it was also mixed with red clay. 

The problem is many of the gta members have raised cherry shrimp with this soil either capped with gravel or sand.


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## razoredge (Dec 31, 2011)

solarz said:


> Did you add anything like lucky bamboos?


Is there an issue with Lucky bamboos?? I have them in one of my tanks.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

xriddler said:


> Fishfur thank you for your detailed response
> 
> My tank is cycled, but i did pull out some vals the day before my shrimp died. _*It is a dirt tank*_. i have had the spikes. my nitrates are zero due to low bioload and you can see my tank in my signature it is moderately planted with lots of stem plants.
> 
> However this statement is spot on. My kh in my tank use to be 7-8 i have no idea why it is at 5kh now. I will test my homes tap water once i get home today as i only use that for my tanks. when i picked up my dead shrimp they are very soft and squishy. What remineralizing product should i use? I have not had a water change in my dirt tank for 3 weeks and counting could that have caused my kh to drop? As i have read and to my understanding dirt tanks dont need frequent water changes just a regular top off from the evaporation.


ah good old MGO grows plant great but when you pull the plants and have shrimp man oh man do they drop dead. does your water smell? like sewer system, I would do a water change. Same thing happened to me a while back using MGO, I shut down a tank but had like 50 cherries in there. Was too hard to net them out with all the plants in there so I decided to pull all the plants out first, they must of been in the dirty water for like an hour before I decided to net them all but by that time there was only less then 5 alive.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

coldmantis said:


> ah good old MGO grows plant great but when you pull the plants and have shrimp man oh man do they drop dead. does your water smell? like sewer system, I would do a water change. Same thing happened to me a while back using MGO, I shut down a tank but had like 50 cherries in there. Was too hard to net them out with all the plants in there so I decided to pull all the plants out first, they must of been in the dirty water for like an hour before I decided to net them all but by that time there was only less then 5 alive.


Are you serious??? Oh my god. I only chose the Miracle Grow Organic Choice because Dustinsfishtanks on youtube uses and recommends it. I didn't know it hurts cherries :S


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

Kimchi24 said:


> Are you serious??? Oh my god. I only chose the Miracle Grow Organic Choice because Dustinsfishtanks on youtube uses and recommends it. I didn't know it hurts cherries :S


nono MGO is fine for shrimp, my breed and the shrimplets survives. It's just that when you dirt a tank and plant it heavily or with plants that have a large root system your kind of stuck with your scape. If you pull any plants out with lots of roots you will release Anerobic Gas Pocket which is kill most if not all the shrimp.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

I see another dieing shrimp. It looks like his right side of the head's shell is lifted. I dont think it is a sign of molting as they molt and jump out from the center. i think someone attacked it in my tank maybe. I have just tested my tap water and my kh is 5! secondly i noticed that my pipes are copper piping could that be the reason why my shrimps are dieing?


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

my house is copper piping, like I said before it's because you disturbed your dirted tank when you pulled out the vals, it's not molting, no one is attacking, Just do a large water change and the shrimp should stop dying.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

razoredge said:


> Is there an issue with Lucky bamboos?? I have them in one of my tanks.


Not of themselves, but I've had the experience of buying some stalks that were treated with pesticides. Caused a massacre in my shrimp bowl.



coldmantis said:


> nono MGO is fine for shrimp, my breed and the shrimplets survives. It's just that when you dirt a tank and plant it heavily or with plants that have a large root system your kind of stuck with your scape. If you pull any plants out with lots of roots you will release Anerobic Gas Pocket which is kill most if not all the shrimp.


Interesting, I pretty much pulled out my entire tank of plants, and have seen no ill effects. However, I did not use MGO, but only mineralized topsoil.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

the tank where the shrimp died for me when using MGO, I didn't sift the soil just dumped everything in. the proper way is to sift out all the wood and large pieces in there and after you cap your soil you are suppose to poke it with chopsticks for like a week to get out all the trapped air bubbles.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

why do we have to sift out all the wood? i just threw in the bag so to speak also so im curious. I remember dustinsfishtank didnt mention this step either. 

when i removed my vals i only removed 3 that were in my substrate (i pulled them out very slowly to not disturb the substrate as much as possible) and the rest was runners that grew above my gravel. it is just hard for me to believe that yanking 3 vals in such a large tank is killing my shrimp but i have to do whatever i can to save them. 

What i noticed with my shrimp too is a break at the middle and reading up on it, i could also have molting problems. my recent shrimp death i witnessed, it was curled in the U shape usually abotu to molt but it looked like it was having trouble and it slowly just with white.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

xriddler said:


> why do we have to sift out all the wood? i just threw in the bag so to speak also so im curious. I remember dustinsfishtank didnt mention this step either.


Take what you learn on youtube with a grain of salt. 

The problem with a soil, or any other organic, substrate is anaerobic decomposition. When you have a highly organic soil packed under thick layers of substrate such that it becomes anaerobic, you are going to have problems with hydrogen sulfide buildup.

The idea behind Mineralized Topsoil is to break down as much organic material in the dirt as possible.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

that is a good read solarz. I have come across something similar before but i decided to go with dustins setup of potting soil and red clay. maybe when this tank dies and needs a teardown i will give this method a try.

Where did you get Dolomite and Muriate of potash?


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