# Help with deficiency???



## 265Planted

I'm fairly new to the site and I could use some help.
I have a heavily planted 265 gallon tank that's 30" tall. I've managed to do alright with it but I keep doing really well, then getting some type of deficiency. My rotal older leaves start to deteriorate...like a nitrate deficiency, and some older leaves on the bottom go glassy and fall off and sometimes I get stem rot. I keep my ferts up and I have discus.

I'm running two 3' t5ho light fixtures 39watts per bulb. I'm running 4 bulbs for 7hrs and turn 4 more for 3hrs right in the middle. 
Co2 injection
Ph 7.6 at night
Ph 6.6/6.7 co2 on
Kh 5
Gh 9
Nitrate:20-30ppm
Phosphate: 1-2ppm

I dose:3x week
Nitrate(kno3) 8g-5ppm
Phosphate(po4) 1g-.65ppm
Potassium((k2so4) 37g- 20ppm
Iron DTPA 4g- .4ppm


My question is, what light category with all 8 on am I in? I keep seeing deterioration and I don't know if it's light, co2 (drop checker is green) or ferts. But any time I up the co2 my discus don't like it.


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## default

With 8 bulbs on your light category is at 'very high' for the first 10" of your tank, and the bottom 6" of your tank will be completely deprived of light, especially beneficial reds and oranges. You see the issue you're running into? 

For tall aquariums, it's difficult to light with T5HOs, you'll have no problems lighting the first few inches, but anything beyond, you're going to have light deficiencies. Especially using 3' 39W bulbs, you really lack the penetration needed to reach the bottom. For larger aquariums, high powered LEDs may be the best option, whether Kessils, PAR38s, or daylight spotlights.

The dropping and 'glassing' of leaves sound typical to what you'd expect from lighting issues, I notice foliage drops on stems that are way too thickly grown or shadowed too long. Remember plants will only grow as quick/well as the lowest parameter for photosynthesis; light, co2, N, P, K, all the traces, water, etc.


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## 265Planted

I kinda had that feeling but I read on other forums that t5ho puts out enough light. I get "ok" growth on my rotala at the bottom and I can grow dwarf sag. I'm also doing ok with my swords. The deficiencies I see are at the top 3rd of the rotala and my wisteria. Even my jungle Val's just kinda "hang in there".

I was actually thinking about getting 4 radion xr15fw for my tank. Do you think that will solve some of my issues that I seem to have?


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## default

So the top portions are melting, but the bottom portions are perfectly fine?

T5HOs are great, but they don't work well enough for 30" of water - even in air I wouldn't say T5HOs provide enough light for deep tanks, I'm currently working on a 36" deep paludarium, and I had to use Kessil LEDs (or halides) to get the power I needed for plants in the bottom.

I personally like my Ecotech XR15FW, but if your budget was allowing you to use these fixtures, I would recommend going for Kessil A360W-E instead. Depending on how the centre braces are on your tank, you could get away with using 3 units instead of 4 - plus they cost around the same prices as Radions. However, the Reeflink controller for the Radions are more 'fun' than the controller for the Kessils, and the controllability of colours are also much more flexible - with that said, the A360s are much more powerful at 90w and offer a better blend in colours (no disco effect).

Whether this would solve your issues? Maybe.
This would definitely eliminate the weakness which is lighting, but there may also be other issues like N deficiency or co2 that would become apparent afterwards - you need to do one thing at a time to pin point what the issues truly are. My personal opinions of what the main deficiencies are in order of what's is most apparent/important in your system and what I'd improve first;
1. Light
2. Co2
3. Nitrogen

If you don't mind taking pictures of the whole tank, I'd like to see what the other plants look like.


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## 265Planted

Any melting/stem rot I get is usually at the bottom, I do get growth it's just slow. It seems like a deficiency at the top of the rotala.....but I guess if I'm going overboard on lights at the top it could do that. 
My nitrates stay pretty high because of the discus and what I feed them so I'm willing to bet it's light or co2. The only issue I have with the Kessil lights is that I have a 7' tank so I'd need 4 and then it's more expensive than radion's plus I can't control every colour individually. I just figured that most ppl don't run their leds at full power so I can just run mine a bit higher to make them more intense.
I also added some more pics. It was hard to get a whole tank shot without the plants looking tiny.

Thanks again!


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## default

I see, in that case Kessils would definitely cost more. However, on the topic of individual colours, even with the Radions you'll most likely resort to using a similar colour to the Kessils 6k-9k, but with more disco-effect light shows. I run my Radions at what's apparently 13k, (changing an individual colour 1% will change it by 5k..) and at near max* power for a 20" tall cube.

*The light is not 100% on every colour, but with the fixture so packed with whites, greens, and blues, it's difficult to get nice colours when maxed, there's just no way the blues, royal blues, and UV would be maxed - most keep it below 30-50% - and that's if you like the blue look. Plus this fixture is not very impressive with red or orange hued plants.

With that said, the decision is yours, but I would still recommend going for Kessils instead of the Radions. As you would be able to actually utilize more of the fixture for your purpose, instead of just utilizing ~60% of a Radion when it's maxed. So you would technically get more out of your purchase. The a150we would also work for your tank, it would be comparable to the XR15FW but much better priced when including fixture, mount/hanger, and controller + uplinks (Kessil). I only recommended the a350we as it would be even more versatile!


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## default

Also, how are you injecting co2 into the tank? Diffuser or reactor?


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## 265Planted

I've got an intense setup of custom reactors. I have 2 that are 3' tall. One is on a recirculating loop in the sump and the other is inline on the return to tank. 

I do like the more blue look but I'm curious about the growth. Do you find your growth thick and compact with the radion? I've read conflicting reports on others forums about it. I'm having that problem now with the t5ho. I don't have to be in the high light range- medium is fine- but I want thick growth. 

I took into consideration what you said about kessil's and I like the look.....my only concern is the colour spectrum..... not much red and a lot of yellow/green. I just wish I could see them both before I make a choice


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## default

265Planted said:


> I've got an intense setup of custom reactors. I have 2 that are 3' tall. One is on a recirculating loop in the sump and the other is inline on the return to tank.
> 
> I do like the more blue look but I'm curious about the growth. Do you find your growth thick and compact with the radion? I've read conflicting reports on others forums about it. I'm having that problem now with the t5ho. I don't have to be in the high light range- medium is fine- but I want thick growth.
> 
> I took into consideration what you said about kessil's and I like the look.....my only concern is the colour spectrum..... not much red and a lot of yellow/green. I just wish I could see them both before I make a choice


Although reactors on paper are technically better for larger aquariums, I would recommend using an in-line mister for larger tanks, I find small physical bubbles work better than fully dissolved co2, especially in a 265g, it's a very difficult thing to do - a ph controller could help.

With the Radions, I have gotten very compact growth, but I've also gotten very leggy growth, seems to depend on various species of plants, but I always find the plants are more bleached out and not the prettiest, unless they are truly green coloured species. However, expect more greens and blues, and much less reds in LEDs, you'll rarely find high powered ones perfectly catered to the planted side, but I've found the Tuna Sun to be pretty good with regards to the colours in the tank - greens are vibrant, yellows-oranges-reds are also pretty good, of course nothing like T5HO (middays, pinks, reds, and even purple bulbs in a T5HO fixture is absolutely stunning, but it won't pen much and it's really just good for something shorter than 20".).

Where would you like the medium light? For tanks so tall, it's not as simple as generalizing the entire tank to be a medium, for ex:
- Medium light near surface - low light near middle - very dim/no light at bottom.
- High light near surface - medium light in middle - low light at bottom
- Very high light near surface - high light near middle - medium/low light at bottom.

It'd be great if there was a simple way to achieve medium lighting throughout the tank, but that's impossible, one reason why I don't personally go beyond 20" tall tanks, the longer the better. You may just be better off picking plants that would yield thicker growth without the demand in increased lighting; like Limnophila Sessiliflora and certain Ludwigia sp.

I've worked with both fixtures, but everyone has personal preferences in regards to colour, but here's what I found; personally I like the Kessils a lot more than Ecotech, even with the limitation of only having 6k-9k and power controls that are.. well absent (not the prettiest sunrise/sunset - it goes from less bright to bright.. pretty lame, whereas the Ecotechs can go from barely any light to full bright in small increments - great for sunrise/sunset (favourite part about the Ecotechs)), but the colour is perfect for plant, I really like the 6k on the Kessils, more red would be great, but it's a nice warm-er white and just an overall great midday colour, whereas the 9k is quite blue.
The Ecotechs offer much more control, but when would you have 100% reds without other colours? Never. Would you want to run 100% red, 70% white, 50% greens, 15% blue, 10% Royal, 10% UV? (<-how I had mine for a little while) Yes you would - the first day or week, but then you'll try to incorporate more blue as you'll need more power to pen the 30" depth and end up running them near 100% with reef light colours, not the prettiest in a planted tank. This is one of the main issues I have about purchasing a $400+ light, only able to use 50% of the fixture because the rest of the colours would be great for non planted purposes, you might as well stick with your T5HOs. With that said, Radions are a fantastic toy(s) that you would enjoy for about a month, and works great when paired with Vortechs, but don't expect much when it comes to growth (nothing special), I just honestly use mine as a low light fixture nowadays, running minimal blues, lots of whites and reds, and low greens.


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## 265Planted

default said:


> Although reactors on paper are technically better for larger aquariums, I would recommend using an in-line mister for larger tanks, I find small physical bubbles work better than fully dissolved co2, especially in a 265g, it's a very difficult thing to do - a ph controller could help.,


Thanks for the reply. I should have mentioned that I am using a ph controller. I'm also running a little over 900gph on the return line with a reactor that I inject with co2....it alows me to get small micro bubbles into the tank, which I also found to be the best. And I also should have mentioned that I built a custom spray bar at the bottom of the tank in addition to the nozzles at the top to get better initial distribution of co2.

I just wish I had a par meter to check what I actually have because some of the guys on other sites are telling me I should have around 70par at the substrate. I think that's a little off because my dwarf sag grows tall......that usually indicates low light does it not? I understand what your saying about the radion's not being at 100%, but do you feel that I'd have inadequate light at the bottom with them?


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## 265Planted

Another question I had and forgot to put it in my post was about the aquaticlife HALO led's. Do you hane any experience with them at all or know of anyone who has?


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## default

That sounds like fantastic co2 diffusion set-up. What ph do you have your controller set to? And what is the ph out of the tap for you?

You're able to rent PAR meters at most reef shops and you could measure your lights that way, however, I've always found it's easier and simpler to use plants that would show characteristics based on certain lighting levels; Pogostemon sp., red Rotala sp., and Limnophila sp. These plants would show very obvious growth styles based on lighting levels. Looking at your pictures again, it would be difficult to believe you're getting 70 PAR at the bottom of your tank, however, it could be done with T5HOs, would be able to provide some more details on the fixtures:

- What brand and make are the fixtures?
- What brand and colour bulbs are you running and how old are they?
- How far do you have them above the water line?

I'm starting to think that the issue may be from the fixtures you have and not the set up, I just remembered having some light issues in the past with certain brands of fixtures, but after replacing them with premium models while maintaining the same number of bulbs I had much better growth and colour. Good reflectors and ballasts can make the biggest difference.

Regarding the Radions, if you run them at or near 100% you should be able to get a decent amount of light to the bottom, but only directly below the fixtures - around 3" radius from the centre of the fixture, but nonetheless you should have higher PAR than the T5HOs. 

For the AL Halos, I've seen some use it with good results on green plants, but for the price it's not really worth it when compared to companies still producing the same fixtures; Kessils and Ecotechs - I think AL has discontinued the production of Halos, which is one of the reasons why they're basically marked down everywhere, they may be making new models, but the consensus I get from people is that it's a decent fixture, but not great. No experience with the units myself, was close to buying one to play with, but was told by the retailers and friends to skip them, got a AI unit instead .


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## 265Planted

Tap ph is 7.6
Controller set too 6.7- drop checker lime green with 5gh water
I'm using an older set of aquaticlife 6 bulb reef fixtures
Running: giessman tropic (2)
Coralife 10,000k (1)
True Lumen flora freshwater (1)
They sit about 4 inches above the water.


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## default

Just to clarify; 
- You have two fixtures?
- The fixtures are six bulbs each?
- You run only two or four bulbs in each in the regular schedule?



> I'm running two 3' t5ho light fixtures 39watts per bulb. I'm running 4 bulbs for 7hrs and turn 4 more for 3hrs right in the middle.


^So you only run two bulbs in each fixture throughout the day and an additional two bulbs in each fixture for the 3 hour blast?


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## 265Planted

Yes two fixtures, 6 bulbs, I only run 4


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## default

Oh I see, IMO, I would try to run what you considered for a little while to see if it works; 4 bulbs on in each fixture (8 total), and you could have a blast of 6 bulbs each (12 total). You have the versatility to add more bulbs and have a decent fixture, so there's nothing to lose.

Your original schedule of 2 bulbs per fixture as your main light cycle is not sufficient, but upping it to 4 bulbs as the main cycle may work, give it 3 weeks to gauge how new growth is doing, remember you may have to possibly dose more fertilizers.


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## 265Planted

Ya I've tried that before with a bit of luck but now my bulbs are a year old so I've gotta make a decision. I'm tossing up the idea of a build and controler. I really wish I could find someone who has a par meter in the London area. I tried the local "reef shop" and they don't have anything or know anyone.

I'm kinda new to the forum, is there any way to reach out to forum members and see if they know anyone?


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## TEEJAY

Question (pardon me if this was already stated) but how deep is your substrate?

From the few photos I saw, it seemed pretty shallow which can also cripple plants.


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## default

265Planted said:


> Ya I've tried that before with a bit of luck but now my bulbs are a year old so I've gotta make a decision. I'm tossing up the idea of a build and controler. I really wish I could find someone who has a par meter in the London area. I tried the local "reef shop" and they don't have anything or know anyone.
> 
> I'm kinda new to the forum, is there any way to reach out to forum members and see if they know anyone?


Post in the sales/buy threads that you're looking to rent a PAR meter in the London area, most reefers don't visit the planted sections, so you'll have much better luck in that section. If I recall correctly, there are reef shops in or near London that would be able to provide you with one, but the reefers can help you with that.

It's definitely a pain whenever bulb change times come around, and especially for so many bulbs, it can get pricey. Build and a controller - are you considering building yourself a light system? If so, I would say it'd be awesome and probably the best approach - if you're proficient with the wiring and programming, the possibilities are endless.


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## 265Planted

TEEJAY said:


> Question (pardon me if this was already stated) but how deep is your substrate?
> 
> From the few photos I saw, it seemed pretty shallow which can also cripple plants.


My substrate is about 2-2.5" in the front and 3.5-4" in the back. I use root tabs and I dose the water column


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## TEEJAY

265Planted said:


> My substrate is about 2-2.5" in the front and 3.5-4" in the back. I use root tabs and I dose the water column


For a 30" tall tank, given the size you'd want your plants to grow to in order to fill up that space, I'd have aimed for 4" up front, and 8" in the back. 2.5" is ok for some plants like baby tears, but even chain swords will benefit from deeper substrate.

Just food for thought; I have seen many successful tanks with shallow substrate, but they are usually shorter aquariums as well with plants that are not expected to grow as large.


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