# Success w/ Breaking the rules!



## Playing God (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi All,

I haven't been on here for the last couple months but I couldn't resist coming back to gloat at least once more.

I've successfully broken a couple "rules" in the aquarist handbook and love it, so I thought I'd post just so beginners know there's more than one way to build a tank.

My tank is built upon a a core desire to have as closed of an ecosystem as possible and follow a few beliefs:

1) I want to do as little work as possible.
2) As long as fish appear healthy, they probably are healthy.
3) I want a tank that can show off a little bit of everything this hobby has to offer.

I know I'll get some backlash here, but let the communication begin. This is all in a 35 gallon:


Here are the "rules" I don't follow and am having success:


Rule 1) Water changes- Do them!

Broken- I haven't changed my water in 2 months now and it's clean, clear and the fish love it (ph about 7.2ish , 0.01ish Ammonia, 0 nitrites, ~2ppm nitrates) I just top up once a week w/ RO water to replace evaporated water.

This works because I have lots of plants to keep the water clean and have a conservative fish count. 

Rule 2) Don't mix too many different fish types together!

Broken- in this tank I have at least one of the following- molly, swordtail, cardinal tetra, danio, galaxy rasbora, german ram, pea puffer. No bullies in the tank either!

Lots of plant cover give them space when needed, adding fish in the right order is important (most aggressive fish must be added last), and understanding needs (i.e. danio and rasbora chase each other so leave cardinal tetra alone).

Rule 3) Clean your tank regularly!

Broken- All I do is feed daily and remove dead leaves on occasion. Snails and fish and shrimp keep the tank spotless, aquarium glass is always clear! Just clean filter once a month (just a sponge for cartridge).

Rule 4) Don't mix shrimp and fish

Broken - As said in rule 2, have 7-8 different fish types living in harmony with my crystal red population. Crystals have berried females, are active shrimp and aren't scared of the fish. I only have about 6 adult shrimp, and it's never hard to see 3-4 of them at any given time in the day. 

ground cover of 2-3 inches of taiwan moss across 3/4 of tank helps (with rock piles) to hide in. I assume babies will be eaten mostly but as long as population survives, I'm not worried.

Rule 5) Use ferts for planted tank

Broken - I have a low light tank that has a moss lawn and vals, etc. that give it height. tank is covered in green with No ferts, no CO2, no extra light. lots of slow growing plants reduce the need for trimming as well!!!

Rule 6) Large snail populations are a nuisance and unsightly.

Broken - I have ramshorn, pond/blatter AND malasian horn snails keeping the tank clean and munching on plants and my tank is fine. One assassin snail and one puffer fish keep the snails in control, but allow enough to keep tank clean. I DON'T have little snails all over the glass, they mostly stick to my moss where I can't see them anyway.

My goal in all this was to create as closed as possible of an ecosystem. And so far so good. It could be that the warning signs will start later on but for now I'm happy to have a diverse, mixed, planted tank that requires very little work.
And most importantly, when people come to our house, it takes them lots of time before they get bored looking at the diversity of my little biosphere project. 

Admittedly, every time I add a new fish type I risk destroying the whole balance, but so far so good!! Perhaps a gourami will complete my tank...assuming I can find one that will tolerate my molly and my shrimp.

Needless to say, I don't even both to tell the LFS staff what I keep in my tank anymore....it just creates too many arguments.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

You know what they say 

Pics or it didn't happen


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

Rules? Or guide lines?

IMO, you broke no rules. You are simply replicating nature. And well, mother nature knows what she is doing.

However, by doing so, it won't take much to tip the scales. Killing fish, and shrimp... 

Long term success will decide if you have broken the rules, or bent them for awhile.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

A person on my local forum has a closed eco system. http://kmas.freeforums.org/closed-ecosystem-tank-t249.html

They don't even have to feed the fish.

Most rules in this hobby are just general and most can be broken.

some rules you just can't break.

Must have some form of bio filter, this could be as basic as just having plenty of plants and nothing more.

Must have water

I can't think of anymore rules you cant break


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Playing God said:


> I haven't changed my water in 2 months now and it's clean, clear and the fish love it (ph about 7.2ish , *0.01ish Ammonia*, 0 nitrites, ~2ppm nitrates) I just top up once a week w/ RO water to replace evaporated water.


What test kit are you using to achieve such fine resolution?


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## spanosilvio (Jan 4, 2008)

I have the same concept going for a year and a half now in my 125 gallon tank, i feed the fish once a week, just for fun, but they have their own supply of live food in the tank with, black worms, cherry shrimps, dwarf crayfish, guppies breeding all the time, and my laetacaras, apistos, pencils and plecos, keeping the population under control and breeding too, the only thing i have to do is sometimes selling some babies or plants, i love it. 

Sent from my A501 using Tapatalk 2


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

How long has your tank been running?


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

Basically you have small community fish, get back to us if you can achieve this!






black piranha mixed with other aggressive fish


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

bigfishy said:


> Basically you have small community fish, get back to us if you can achieve this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BJJBlackbelt (Jan 31, 2013)

I have done similar with my livingroom 29. A few forum members have seen it recently and it's a 300% stocked tank that is very heavily planted. It's been running for 2 years and I've lost a total of 2 otocinclus, 1 japonica shrimp and 1 black phantom tetra. 

I slowly added the mix over a 9 month stretch where the tank matured and the plants grew out.

Current set up is...

29 gallon
Twin T8 lights 6700k and 8000k 
2 Aqua Clear 70's
150 watt fluval kept at 71-72 degrees

All fish are adults

1 albino bristlenose
1 spotted rubberlip
1 common rubberlip 
5 japonica shrimp
8 zebra nerite snails
1 black moor goldfish (wife had to have it)
6 pearl danios
6 white tetras
6 serpae tetras
8 black phantom tetras
1 spotted African dwarf frog
5 otocinclus

I have a sword in the middle, a couple of crypts, hygro rose, some money wort type plant that turns red at the tips, water wisteria.

It works for me...

Water changes are maybe every 2 months for about 3-4 cycles and then I will do a series of 3-4 weekly changes to top up the nutrients. 

Feed them the right amount, don't keep the lights on too long and trust your master test kit...


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

To the OP:

if you're looking to "break the rules", the guys over at the reef section are a lot more uptight about them. Just google "reef no water changes".


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## SmokeSR (Jan 28, 2009)

Tank sounds nice. How old is that pea puffer? Once it's fully mature, it might shift the balance (although there are friendly non-aggressive pea puffers - I just found that they seem to get a lot more aggressive once mature). Good luck.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi Andy,

Thanks for starting this thread, it is one of the more interesting subjects, and does come up from time to time on different forums across the web. As Jackson mentioned, pls include some pictures, we are interesting in seing your tank. 

As some mentioned, they are not really "Rules", but guidelines, that are very important for newbs getting into the practice, not having done much research and without any experience, so that they may in general have a better experience so that they can continue.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Zfarsh,

No offense, but you seem to be very hostel when it comes to telling people constantly that they "HAVE TO DO" something... Replicating a natural aquarium means you're replicating mother nature.

His filtration system is more than adequate. The plants make up for this. Same goes for the waist. I don't do water changes on my tanks as often as I should. I don't have any die offs, hell I haven't done anything but top up the water in my 20gallon community for the last 4 months and all the fish are happy and healthy. 

I think the OP was just pointing out that, just because somebody says jump, doesn't mean you can't leap. He's showing that you can set up a healthy aquarium, with minimal work, so long as you know what you're doing. As he clearly did.

I still agree with Jackson on pg1 tho, Pics or it never happened.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I must have not expressed myself well as that is not what I was trying to do

Edit: if I came in sounding as Ryan mentioned, I apologize, and will edit my statement


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

I know zfarsh and have met him many times. One of the nicest guys I've met through the forum. Dont judge people off of text. In person he's beyond nice.


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## Newobsession (Nov 17, 2010)

Jackson said:


> I know zfarsh and have met him many times. One if the nicest guys I've met through the forum. Dont judge people off of text. In person he's beyond nice.


+1
ok, so haven't MET him, but have have dealt with him and I agree.

On a seperate note, I'm sure if you ask enough people, many a goldfish have lived a long (3-4 years) "healthy and happy life" in 1/2 gallon unfiltered goldfish bowls and even smaller cups at fairs. (really need a sarcasm font)
without going on at length, let's not jump to confusing surviving with healthy.


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

+1 to the op..

Rules.... guidlines... whatever u call em, I believe if you understand how the cycle works you can get around the rules..
Ive had a 75 gal RCS tnk that I only top off... they breed normally! ive got hundreds of em with no sickness/parasites... I know this cuz I feed my cichlids sometimes and ive had no parasite death or anything like that 

I started the hobby with a dirted tank and my husbandry skills werent as proper as they are today... barely changed water, over stocked on neon tetras and heavily planted! That was the nicest looking tank ive had


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## Newobsession (Nov 17, 2010)

75 gal rcs tank? sounds sweet. I really want to start another shrimp tank. I had a 110 gal cube that i was going to do that with, nothing but shrimp. I pulled the pin on the plan though when i realzed it was a seriois space commitment that i couldn't just move around the basement when needed. would love to see pics


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

Newobsession said:


> 75 gal rcs tank? sounds sweet. I really want to start another shrimp tank. I had a 110 gal cube that i was going to do that with, nothing but shrimp. I pulled the pin on the plan though when i realzed it was a seriois space commitment that i couldn't just move around the basement when needed. would love to see pics


LOL yes, you are right! it is a big space commitment! but everyone knows that in this hobby you MUST keep the wifey happy, so the tank is here until she says it can go lol 

heres a few pics after a top off/trimming/"harvest" 
apologies for crappy quality.. these were taken off of my phone


under a 10k


under a 6500


6500 and 10k

videos are much better... i have to get back in it!


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

well, if I had 2 tanks that big, 1 would be for goldfish, 1 would be for a whole lot of kinds of Corydoras (including the dwarf ones: Hastatus) / RCS / Amanos / maybe some small plecos, and as much Ottos as feasible. If I wanted to understock it, I would simply be careful how many corydoras and plecos I got, but knowing me, 2 tanks is too little to want to understock . 

The only tank I remember never doing any water change was my shrimp tanks, but my numbers diminished after like 6 months, and I bought new ones. Not sure why, but ever since, I spread out my rcs into all my 3 tanks so I can always have some. My "hospital" planted tank has rcs and ramshorns only, and I never made water change in that one. Hopefully I will get enough baby ramshorns to transfer a big amount to all my tanks, so in case this tank crashes, I still have in my other tanks, but I doubt it would crash, it is really under-stocked and a lot of plants.


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

zfarsh said:


> well, if I had 2 tanks that big, 1 would be for goldfish, 1 would be for a whole lot of kinds of Corydoras (including the dwarf ones: Hastatus) / RCS / Amanos / maybe some small plecos, and as much Ottos as feasible. If I wanted to understock it, I would simply be careful how many corydoras and plecos I got, but knowing me, 2 tanks is too little to want to understock .
> 
> The only tank I remember never doing any water change was my shrimp tanks, but my numbers diminished after like 6 months, and I bought new ones. Not sure why, but ever since, I spread out my rcs into all my 3 tanks so I can always have some. My "hospital" planted tank has rcs and ramshorns only, and I never don't change the water in that one. Hopefully I will get enough baby ramshorns to transfer a big amount to all my tanks, so in case this tank crashes, I still have in my other tanks, but I doubt it would crash, it is really under-stocked and a lot of plants.


yea i dont think i have to worry about my rcs tank crashing considering its only RCS and assassin snails in it... the bioload cant be that big, not to mention all the plants..
its no FH or GT tank but i have to admit, it sure is relaxing to come home to after long days at work!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

macKRAZY said:


> yea i dont think i have to worry about my rcs tank crashing considering its only RCS and assassin snails in it... the bioload cant be that big, not to mention all the plants..
> its no FH or GT tank but i have to admit, it sure is relaxing to come home to after long days at work!


So have you had an explosion of RCS yet?


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

solarz said:


> So have you had an explosion of RCS yet?


LOL yes.. plenty!
I sell a lot and feed to my cichlids
maybe i should just leave it for a month or two without selling or harvesting
haha that would be a sight


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

actually, now I remember why my numbers probably went down, i might have been one of my first experiments, I think my tank was only a 5 or 10 gallons, and I guess temperature / season / bioload change can affect it more drastically. I am sure if it was over 40 gallon (hehehe, like a 120gallon), nothing could possibly happen and water changes would be a rare thing.

Question: Do you still buy new RCS from other people, eventhough you have plenty, just to renew the gene pool?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

macKRAZY said:


> LOL yes.. plenty!
> I sell a lot and feed to my cichlids
> maybe i should just leave it for a month or two without selling or harvesting
> haha that would be a sight


LOL, you'd probably have shrimps crawling all over the tank.

Now if those were CRYSTAL shrimps, then you'd have a fortune! lol


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

solarz said:


> LOL, you'd probably have shrimps crawling all over the tank.
> 
> Now if those were CRYSTAL shrimps, then you'd have a fortune! lol


LOL i wish


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

zfarsh said:


> actually, now I remember why my numbers probably went down, i might have been one of my first experiments, I think my tank was only a 5 or 10 gallons, and I guess temperature / season / bioload change can affect it more drastically. I am sure if it was over 40 gallon (hehehe, like a 120gallon), nothing could possibly happen and water changes would be a rare thing.
> 
> Question: Do you still buy new RCS from other people, eventhough you have plenty, just to renew the gene pool?


Yeah, even cherry shrimps don't breed too well in a small tank. I learned this from trying to keep some in a 2-gallon tank.

However, I think 20 gallons should be more than enough. I know my 20-gallon is crawling with cherry shrimps even with plenty of fish sharing the space.


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

zfarsh said:


> actually, now I remember why my numbers probably went down, i might have been one of my first experiments, I think my tank was only a 5 or 10 gallons, and I guess temperature / season / bioload change can affect it more drastically. I am sure if it was over 40 gallon (hehehe, like a 120gallon), nothing could possibly happen and water changes would be a rare thing.
> 
> Question: Do you still buy new RCS from other people, eventhough you have plenty, just to renew the gene pool?


ill only buy more only if its for a good deal! but with the amount i have i dont think ill ever have to buy again!
I find that the most important thing to get these guys to multiply like crazy(IMO) is maintaining the temp at 74... some may say 76-78 but 74 hasnt failed me! i see new little, tiny baby shrimp every other day.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

macKRAZY said:


> ill only buy more only if its for a good deal! but with the amount i have i dont think ill ever have to buy again!
> I find that the most important thing to get these guys to multiply like crazy(IMO) is maintaining the temp at 74... some may say 76-78 but 74 hasnt failed me! i see new little, tiny baby shrimp every other day.


multiple time dated pics or it didnt happen! lol joking joking. I got my 50 cherries 1.5 weeks ago and dropped them in my community tank and i already have 4 pregnant females  how long does it take them to mature from egg?


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

xriddler said:


> multiple time dated pics or it didnt happen! lol joking joking. I got my 50 cherries 1.5 weeks ago and dropped them in my community tank and i already have 4 pregnant females  how long does it take them to mature from egg?


LOL if i can remember to take a picture during feeding i will... thats when its best! its funny to see all the shrimp climbing over each other for the food!
once you see the eggs it should take 3-4 weeks to hatch. when they are almost ready, you'll be able to see little black eyes in the eggs
youre lucky if you can witness the hatch lol if not, just look out for TINY shrimp on your glass, it wont be that hard to locate them 

if none were pregnant when you got them, that means your RCS are happy, you have good water and they feel safe
i fear for the shrimplets tho because they are in a community tank, many will be eating by your fish!


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Tetras only count as 1/2 inch each.
Dwarf shrimps count as almost 0 inch. They are consider as a clean up crew. They eat their dead, so even the dead don't cause a problem. They assert their own population limit to the surface area of the tank. And when the system is stressed. They drop their eggs and are in turn eaten.
Not sure was "rules you guys though you break", you may have reached your limits, provided that you know what you are doing.

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