# Automating EI Dosing Schedule!



## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi.

I've only recently learned about EI dosing, and it appears that this approach is working well for me. I am still fining tuning my CO2, but that's on the equipment side.

Anyhow, I want to automate the dosing process and thinking about using drip irrigating valves to do it.

The idea is that I premix and dilute the Micro and Macro in two separate containers. The solutions will be gravity feed, and flow rate is controlled by the two valves - one for each type of fertilisers. 

The drip rate will be such that the total amount of fertiliser per 2 weeks will be spread out continuously for that duration.

The motivation is no daily work in dosing, and more evenly distributed dosing as in oppose to the larger stepwise daily amount.

Refill are done at water change! Water change will eventually be automated also. I've got solenoid valve from a dishwasher that should do the work nicely.

I have two questions, and I have a feeling that Darkblade will hop on this!

1. I understand that one doesn't mixed the micro and macro together as it could cause the iron to precipitate out of the solution. My question is that would they not be mixed once they are in the water column anyhow; even if we stagger the dosing?

2. I am also trying to directly inject into the substrate itself via perforated tube. Any thought or comment on this? The substrate is currently 2-3mm gravel 1-2" deep. I've moved away from clay and vermiculite as it gets messy. I vacuum once in a blue moon. My thought on it, is that the nutrient will be more accessible to the root. I have to concerns:

i) If I dose the substrate stepwise large concentration, would there be sulfation that could potentially kill the livestocks? Overdose may kill the plant roots. Since the substrate is inert, the fertilisers should diffuse with time into the water column. There will be anaerobic area where the fertiliser may cause problem.

ii) If I dose the substrate continuously as in the drip irrigation approach, this may introduce oxygen into the substrate which may affect nutrient uptake. Has any tried this approach?

I would appreciate if you share your personal experience - approach and results.

I'll report my own results in a few weeks.

Thanks.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

LTPGuy said:


> 1. I understand that one doesn't mixed the micro and macro together as it could cause the iron to precipitate out of the solution. My question is that would they not be mixed once they are in the water column anyhow; even if we stagger the dosing?


Concentrated solutions should not be mixed. In the water column, they should be dilute enough to not cause iron phosphate to precipitate out (operative word: should). It can still happen, so that is why people dose on alternating days.



LTPGuy said:


> 2. I am also trying to directly inject into the substrate itself via perforated tube. Any thought or comment on this? The substrate is currently 2-3mm gravel 1-2" deep. I've moved away from clay and vermiculite as it gets messy. I vacuum once in a blue moon. My thought on it, is that the nutrient will be more accessible to the root.


Without something actively pumping the fertilizer, gravity alone will not inject your fertilizers.



LTPGuy said:


> I have to concerns:
> 
> i) If I dose the substrate stepwise large concentration, would there be sulfation that could potentially kill the livestocks? Overdose may kill the plant roots. Since the substrate is inert, the fertilisers should diffuse with time into the water column. There will be anaerobic area where the fertiliser may cause problem.


Perhaps; anaerobic pockets could be problematic. Overdosing could chemically burn plant roots, but you still have the initial problem of even getting the fertilizers to substrate level via gravity.



LTPGuy said:


> ii) If I dose the substrate continuously as in the drip irrigation approach, this may introduce oxygen into the substrate which may affect nutrient uptake. Has any tried this approach?


I don't see why oxygen would affect nutrient uptake...?

It may be easier to just get two peristaltic pumps...they are not that expensive nowadays. I will eventually get around to doing this for my DIY programmable aquarium controller project.

Just waiting for that 3.2" TFT LCD to come in so I can start playing around with it and the coding.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Darkblade48 said:


> It may be easier to just get two peristaltic pumps...they are not that expensive nowadays. I will eventually get around to doing this for my DIY programmable aquarium controller project.
> 
> Just waiting for that 3.2" TFT LCD to come in so I can start playing around with it and the coding.


$13 for a pump is quite reasonable. I still need that controller. I probably can modify a standard timer, or get a cheap digital one from XS-Garbage.

This of course introduce more parts and components that requires cares and cost. I am trying to go as low tech and simple as possible.

I read your post on the controller. Looking forward to see the result!



Darkblade48 said:


> Without something actively pumping the fertilizer, gravity alone will not inject your fertilizers.


I am thinking of something much like the intravenous dripper you get when you're in the hospital. Two bottles or bags hanging over the tank waterline. The diluted solution of 1 week's worth of fertliser will be dripped into the filter intake and disperse through out the tank(s).



Darkblade48 said:


> Concentrated solutions should not be mixed. In the water column, they should be dilute enough to not cause iron phosphate to precipitate out (operative word: should). It can still happen, so that is why people dose on alternating days.


The water column is 10G. The fertiliser concentrate are mixed for 5mL per day doses. The concentrated are store in separate containers. The diluted solution will also be store in separate containers.

I am not sure how to quantify but would my solutions be diluted enough to limit iron precipitation. The solutions one Macro and one Micro (30mL of concentrate into 2L of H2O each) dripping one drop at a time for the 1 week period.

EI Dosing say that we dose in excess of plants uptake. The excess from one day would be around the next day to precipitate the Fe Phosphate.



Darkblade48 said:


> I don't see why oxygen would affect nutrient uptake...?


This could be old and outdated knowledge, but an anaerobic substrate acts as a chelator thus help break down complex molecules for plants to uptake. Oxygen in the fertiliser solution that's being injected into the substrate would oxidize the ions, ie Fe+2 thus defeating the whole point of making nutrient more readily available at the root. I guess can boil the water and drive out most of the O2.

Just after I posted this thread, I read on wiki that O2 actually helps nutrient uptake. I don't know what now.

MAybe is back to the basic for me. Any book any recommends?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

LTPGuy said:


> $13 for a pump is quite reasonable. I still need that controller. I probably can modify a standard timer, or get a cheap digital one from XS-Garbage.
> 
> This of course introduce more parts and components that requires cares and cost. I am trying to go as low tech and simple as possible.
> 
> I read your post on the controller. Looking forward to see the result!


You can just use a timer to control the pumps. Just mount them into a project box and attach to two timers (one for each solution). That is the easiest way to do it. A controller would do the same function, but might have some added functions such as measuring pH/controlling CO2, temperature, fans, LEDs (dimming them), etc.

Don't hold your breath for the controller; I can barely program 



LTPGuy said:


> I am thinking of something much like the intravenous dripper you get when you're in the hospital. Two bottles or bags hanging over the tank waterline. The diluted solution of 1 week's worth of fertliser will be dripped into the filter intake and disperse through out the tank(s).


Aha, I misunderstood your previous post perhaps. However, you said you are trying to inject directly into the substrate via a perforated tube? As I mentioned, this will not be possible unless you are actively injecting/pumping. If you are planning to just use an intravenous dripper and dose at the water line, it should be fine.



LTPGuy said:


> The water column is 10G. The fertiliser concentrate are mixed for 5mL per day doses. The concentrated are store in separate containers. The diluted solution will also be store in separate containers.


You can dose the concentrated solutions directly into the aquarium; no need to dilute them in a separate container first. The only reason I can see the need for diluting is so that you can get a low enough dosing amount (i.e. since you can only lower the dripping rate to a certain extent). But if that is the case, why not just make a big batch of dilute fertilizer to start off with?



LTPGuy said:


> EI Dosing say that we dose in excess of plants uptake. The excess from one day would be around the next day to precipitate the Fe Phosphate.


I believe Tom Barr mentioned that the amounts that are present in the aquarium during EI dosing will not cause the iron to precipitate out. In general, you *can* mix macros with micros, provided they are dilute enough.



LTPGuy said:


> This could be old and outdated knowledge, but an anaerobic substrate acts as a chelator thus help break down complex molecules for plants to uptake. Oxygen in the fertiliser solution that's being injected into the substrate would oxidize the ions, ie Fe+2 thus defeating the whole point of making nutrient more readily available at the root. I guess can boil the water and drive out most of the O2.
> 
> Just after I posted this thread, I read on wiki that O2 actually helps nutrient uptake. I don't know what now.
> 
> MAybe is back to the basic for me. Any book any recommends?


I'm not sure where you got that knowledge from; as far as I know, an anaerobic substrate will not act as a chelator. Chelators also do not "break down" complex molecules...?

In addition, iron in the +2 oxidation state is still soluble and available for plants for uptake. Once it is oxidized to the +3 state however, it becomes easily precipitated in the presence of other ions such as phosphate.

As for reading, Walstad's book is a good reference. To be honest, I never read through the entire book; I just use it as reference. Similarly, my set of Amano books just serve as inspiration. I never bother actually reading through them


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

I've seen a neat diy doser someone did using one of those automatic air freshner spraying things that have a pump and timer built in.


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## baozi2089 (May 17, 2009)

If you are thinking about automated dosing without 50% weekly water change. I recommend the PPS method.
https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/
It doses according to plants daily needs, no excess nutrient build up like in EI.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Thanks Darkblade for your inputs on EI Dosing. Base on what you have said, I think the drip setup will work, and it requires the less amount of setup and work. Basically hang a bottle with tube and a drip valve.

I went ahead and put 2mL of Macro ad Micro is a bottle to see if there are any precipitation. The concentration solution showed a little bits of precipitate, but that could just be the dirty bottle. The solution is still brownish yellow so I figure the iron must still has not completely precipitated out. I'll try again with a cleaner bottle.

I've just finishing reading the last chapter of Walstad book, and skim through some of the other chapters. Some very interesting info. It has been a long while since I read that book!

It appears that O2 is good for nutrient uptake in the substrate.

My question if anyone could comment is whether substrate fertilisation necessary/useful, or fertilising the water column is sufficient?

Do I dose both Macro and Micro into the substrate?

This picture show how I would implement this feat...









I read somewhere that certain plants requires substrate fertilisation.
BTW, your right about mixing the diluted solution. I am trying to use up the more concentrated mix that I've already made.

@getochkn
I am not sure if the air freshener have any valve or pump. I think it has a motor which push the aerosol can which eject the air freshener. If you have the link, I would be curious to check it out!

@baozi
This is another eye opener. Thanks very much for the link. Being lazy in nature, PPS-Pro might work out best for me. My current setup makes it hard to do water change, and that's why I am trying to push WC to 2 weeks in the EI approach. PPS could make lifes a lot better

I've read through most of the articles, but would like to hear your inputs on if you're using it, and how it differs from EI. The fertilisers appears to be the same, the quantity appears differ.

How does this works with no water change, any light condition, etc. I've read the testimonies so I am impress as its clearly works, and it is very attractive from the workload viewpoint.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

LTPGuy said:


> My question if anyone could comment is whether substrate fertilisation necessary/useful, or fertilising the water column is sufficient?
> 
> Do I dose both Macro and Micro into the substrate?


Substrate fertilization is beneficial for some plants that are primarily root feeders (such as Amazon Swords or _Cryptocoryne_ spp., however, these plants will still uptake nutrients through their leaves, as with any other plant.



LTPGuy said:


> This picture show how I would implement this feat...
> 
> View attachment 21532


Unfortunately, this will probably not work as you intended.

Water will flow into the perforated holes in your tubing, and then up the vertical tubing. The fertilizer will achieve minimal diffusion throughout the water that is in the tubing before overflowing out the top.

You can give it a try, but I don't think it will work as well as anticipated.



LTPGuy said:


> @baozi
> This is another eye opener. Thanks very much for the link. Being lazy in nature, PPS-Pro might work out best for me. My current setup makes it hard to do water change, and that's why I am trying to push WC to 2 weeks in the EI approach. PPS could make lifes a lot better


You can still maintain an EI dosing regimen by halving your dosing and doing water changes every 2 weeks instead.



LTPGuy said:


> I've read through most of the articles, but would like to hear your inputs on if you're using it, and how it differs from EI. The fertilisers appears to be the same, the quantity appears differ.


I used to use PPS-Pro for some time as well, before I switched to EI. EI is based on supplying abundant nutrients to the plants, and then resetting the levels to prevent them from accumulating through 50% water changes weekly. PPS-Pro takes the opposite approach; rather than provide an abundance of nutrients, you are providing just enough for plants.

This means that PPS-Pro is a little more finicky with adjusting amounts, since as plants grow, the amount of nutrients they will need will increase, and you will need to adjust your dosing accordingly.


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## Boogerboy (Sep 23, 2008)

Darkblade48 said:


> I used to use PPS-Pro for some time as well, before I switched to EI. EI is based on supplying abundant nutrients to the plants, and then resetting the levels to prevent them from accumulating through 50% water changes weekly. PPS-Pro takes the opposite approach; rather than provide an abundance of nutrients, you are providing just enough for plants.
> 
> This means that PPS-Pro is a little more finicky with adjusting amounts, since as plants grow, the amount of nutrients they will need will increase, and you will need to adjust your dosing accordingly.


Sorry to hijack this thread but does this mean if i were to cut my EI doses in half, closer to PPS, would it be safe to leave the tank without a water change for longer? Just wondering because I'm going to have to leave my tank for 3 weeks soon.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Boogerboy said:


> Sorry to hijack this thread but does this mean if i were to cut my EI doses in half, closer to PPS, would it be safe to leave the tank without a water change for longer? Just wondering because I'm going to have to leave my tank for 3 weeks soon.


As I mentioned, you can halve your doses of a normal EI regimen, and then leave your aquarium to go without water changes for 2 weeks.

However, you still have to dose the fertilizers everyday...so if you are gone for 3 weeks, you would need someone to help you dose.

The plants would probably get very dense in that time as well.


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## baozi2089 (May 17, 2009)

People have been using the PPS method and not change their water for up to a year. Provided that you have a well balanced ecosystem and bioload.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

baozi2089 said:


> People have been using the PPS method and not change their water for up to a year. Provided that you have a well balanced ecosystem and bioload.


Does this means my setup up has to be somewhat fixed? Minimal aquascaping? I am not big into fish, so bioload should not be a constraint. Most of my fishes are small, and I feed sparingly. The plants I have all grows at different rates, and some I haven't grown before grows not to my liking hence replanting, changeup, etc.

PPS-Pro does not implement testing, so I wonder how we determine this magical balance that it speak of? Is it similar to EI in that you observe sympton or progress and adjust your dose accordingly? Being new to EI and newer to PPS I am somewhat confused.

In EI, the water change make senses as it reset the nutrient level. In PPS, how do we come to this balance.

TDS meter? I am looking to purchase one, but all of the one on ebay are calibrated for ppm, not uS. Any suggestion? I didn't want to dish up $30/$40 for one that's in uS. I can see how useful this tool can be, not as an absolute measurement, but as and indicator of progress, or regression.

As it stand, the no water change is very very attractive for me right now. That will change in a year, but a year of water changing is somewhat of a pain in the A for me right now.

Quite a while back, I had a setup where I had a continuously running water change/top up setup, and plants growth were phenominal. All low tech too. So I do understand that water change is also very good for the plants.

I've read the thread about PPS on aquatic central but there were a lot of questions, and confusion.

It is safe to assume that Baozi is using PPS? Could you share your approach as I understand you are reputed to have great plants.

Darkblade, I understand also that you moved from PPS to EI. What was your motivation, and it also appears that you have greater success with EI.

@Boogerboy
Why don't you try to setup the drip dosing setup I described here. This will be a great test for my theory, and approach to eliminating the daily labour (of love) of dosing. Two pop bottles of nutrient, air tubes, and two drip valve from HD or Rona or Lowes. Adjust the drip rate so that the bottle will empty in 3 weeks time. Tell us your result when you come back from your trip!!


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

*Mixing Macro and Micro*

I follow the EI recipe to mix Macro and Micro to does 5mL of each on alternative day. I've just mix 2mL of each solution in a small bottle, and observing not precipitate. I will look tomorrow for any settling at the bottom.

So far so good. I hope Boogerboy take up on my suggestion about drip dosing as it will show the effect of this approach.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

There are some really informative threads over at TPT that you might want to take a read through; they discuss PPS-Pro versus EI. Tom Barr also chimes in in some of the threads...

I learned there's a new method of dosing called MCI today  I've been out of this for too long.

In any case, I would say having no water changes for a year is....suspicious. But without a doubt, PPS-Pro can go longer without water changes than EI. 

I personally noticed better growth when doing EI over PPS-Pro. And as mentioned, PPS-Pro is more about balance, so you have to be a little more careful with your plant monitoring. 

With EI, I just dump in the fertilizers, don't worry about nutrient deficiencies and then do water changes.


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## baozi2089 (May 17, 2009)

I have been using the PPS method for half a year now. I use the estimated formula on their site to make my stock solutions but I dose slightly different than the recommended amounts.

I run a high tech tank (4 HOT5s), so any signs of deficiency shows really fast, especially micro, which tends to be the limiting factors in my tank. If I miss my dosing by 2 days, I would start to see early signs of micro deficiency. 

To find the balance:
For macros, I use my nitrate level as an indicator. It should be around 10 - 20ppm and stable over time. I can slowly dial up the macromix, 1 ml/day at a time, until I start to see increased algae growth, then I can either up my CO2 (currently my pH meter is at 6.4) or tune down the dosing. Every tank is different, but once you've hit the balance, it's awesome. My tank is spotless, no algae on the glass at all.

For micros, to determine the minimal amount needed, I observe for signs of deficiency in my plants, especially fast growing ones like Elatine Driandra, water sprite. Then depending on how red I want my red plants (rotala) to be, I can slightly up the dose until they turn to the colour I want. 

For water changes, I still believe that more is better, especially for the fish. So I still do it as frequently as I can, sometimes once a week.

The good:
From experience, the beauty about PPS is once you hit the balance, you will have minimal algae growth. Plants can still grow at a rate that's on par with EI dosing.
It saves you money on the fertilizer especially the CSM+B mix, since there is relatively less overdosing.
Since you are dosing the daily amount, water changes do not need to be done on a fixed schedule/in a fixed amount.
No big fluctuations in nutrient levels, less stress on the livestock. It creates a stable ecosystem. My amano shrimp is always full of eggs and my oto cats are breeding continually. 

The bad:
Takes sometime to find the balance, and balance might be different for each tank or changing over time. Starting with the suggested dose only brings you closer to the balance.
Need to dose nutrients on a daily basis. You need automated dosing pump, I got mine for 99 dollars at goreef.ca

IMO: EI is more adapted because it does not require big investment on equipments, but if you are willing to invest some extra money. PPS gives you more balance, stability, and low & flexible maintenance.

Hope it helps!

Cheers.


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## DaFishMan (Dec 19, 2006)

Lex I'm doing pops also. I've also read the medical Dripper works as mentioned. Good idea


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

DaFishMan said:


> Lex I'm doing pops also. I've also read the medical Dripper works as mentioned. Good idea


Can you buy those medical drippers, or just get them from the hospital (if they let you)?

Also, my Micro and Macro solution mix has been sitting around for a day or two now, and still no precipitation!


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## DaFishMan (Dec 19, 2006)

Sorry I meant to say PPS not pops lol.

Drip bags ? Medical supply stores or ebay.


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