# Swine flu Vaccine



## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Man.. I didn't realize how much it bothered me until I was in the car with bob and the topic of having to get the swine flu vaccine scared me. My doctor said that there was a special one that pregnant woman have to get this year plus the normal flu one and I don't usually get any!

I don't usually get the flu shot because I get nervous about testing and things like that. I heard something the other day about them not knowing how many doses they actually need for this swine flu and that freaks me out to no end. 

Am I being way too paranoid? Is this vaccine safe or is it just too early to know? I'd like to think I can trust my doctor and he's not a easy person to get whatever you want from....


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I have never gotten the flu vaccine before. I don't see a need for it, provided that you are a healthy individual. To be honest, the media does blow some things out of proportional, leading to sensationalization. While getting the flu vaccine can be beneficial, it is not a matter of life and death if you don't get it either.

I believe what you heard about not knowing how many doses are needed refers to the fact that a country cannot be "fully" prepared unless they stockpile enough vaccinations for every single person. Of course, this is infeasible because of a) manufacturing limitations b) cost, and c) shelf life of the vaccine; if no outbreak occurs, the money spent on vaccines would be a waste. It is a careful balance between these factors that determines how many vaccinations a country would stockpile. Since swine flu is becoming more prevalent, the Ministry is probably looking at acquiring more vaccinations, but exactly how many are needed is unknown.

If vaccines are available, they likely are safe; of course, you cannot say it will be 100% safe, as it is simply a matter of statistics (for all we know, the sun could explode tomorrow...). I am unsure of how the H1N1 vaccine is made (viral epitope? Inactivated virus? etc), but needless to say, it will not give you influenza.

I'm a microbiologist major, and I am not the least bit worried about H1N1. After SARS and H5N1 (Avian flu; which, when compared to H1N1 has a greater potential for virulence in humans), H1N1 is quite tame.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Awee thanks anthony.. that helps a lot. I personally feel much the same as you do when it comes to getting the flu shot. I am in general in great health and I don't fall into one of those risk ages.

But now that I am 7 month pregnant I was pretty worried about it. You know some of those horror stories about injections causing this and that. 

I am excellent with my germ management but its my co workers that cough and sneeze on everything lol. I just don't want to bring any extra harm to my kiddo esp. when getting so close to the due date.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

As long as you are in good health, get proper sleep and eat healthy, you should have no problems warding off sickness. Also, as you mentioned, you don't fall into the age risk groups for H1N1. 

You should be more worried about listeriosis, if you wanted something worry about, however.

As for H1N1 and its effects on pregnant women, I am not too familiar with that. I have never been (and hopefully never will ) pregnant.

As for your co-workers coughing and sneezing, the best thing that you can do is wash your hands with soap. If you don't already wash your hands after using the washroom (ew!), do so. Wash your hands when you get home from work, or from anywhere outdoors. Wash your hands before eating. And of course, this will only work if you use the proper hand washing techniques. 5 seconds of putting your hands under the tap with trickling water isn't going to do anything.

Oh, and of course, try to avoid touching your mouth, nose, ears and eyes with your hands. It minimizes another route of entry for bacteria/viruses.

You might be considering those hand sanitizers as well. My opinion (of course, to each his/her own) is that they provide some sense of security for people. Yes, it kills bacteria. But what causes influenza, the common cold, H1N1, etc? Viruses. Note that the labeling on the bottles never mention anything about killing 99.9% of viruses. They use broad terms like "germs" (of which you could classify bacteria as).

In addition, using hand sanitizers often lull people into a false sense of safety and security as well.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

oohhh yes, my Dietitian has been warning me all over about that listeriosis. lol I have to over cook everything and things like deli meats and the sort are off the menu. 

I have a friend who is married to a nurse so I asked him about it as well but until then you've made me feel much better about it.

Ugh the people at work are really gross bathroom wise too. Esp. for women, you'd think they would be all very sanitary.. Sadly it isn't that way at all. Yuk. lol


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Glad I made you feel a little better 

Now I'm off to sleep; have to hop into the lab again tomorrow to run some stuff. Weekend? What is this "weekend" you speak of?


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

LOL! Goodnight :3


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

I think the issue with the vaccine was either the dosage or number of dosages. Can't remember.

Myself, I get a flu shot every year as an asthmatic - pneumonia is a major concern for me, who already has compromised lung performance. 

@Cid, yeah, I've heard that women's bathrooms are often gross. Guys just miss the bucket from time to time. I've heard far worse from Women's rooms.

As for the vaccine? Unless you're at a heightened risk of contracting a virulent flu (ie work in a healthcare setting) then you're probably fine.

But I'm no doctor, nor immunologist.


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

From living through an era of swine flu that the vaccine was worse than the disease, you can see why I am a bit apprehensive.  Hopefully they know a lot more about vaccines than back then. Only you can make the decision.
Here is what happened in 76: http://www.capitalcentury.com/1976.html
And here is a commercial from back then about the vaccination: 



Dig it!


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

i don't think i'd be very comfortable getting a shot while pregnant. i haven't really been following the h1n1 news but i am not all that worried. i have three small kids, one is just a baby and i am still not going to get a flu shot or the h1n1 shot. if you have a good immune system try not to worry about it. also, if you are planning to try breastfeeding you won't have to worry much about your baby getting sick as often since she will have access to your immune system. you will probably be on maternity leave for most of the flu season too, won't you?


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## characinfan (Dec 24, 2008)

My 2 cents --

Toxoplasmosis (often carried by cats) and salmonella (more common in birds and lizards) -- which your pets may be carrying -- are more of a risk than viruses are for pregnant women & developing babies, but if you wash your hands well, etc., you and your kid should be fine.

I personally am going to get the vaccine. I get the flu vaccine every year. The risks of the vaccines are far lower than the risks associated with actually getting a nasty case of the flu -- either regular flu or swine flu.

Flu season is expected to start in November and peak several months later. If your kid is going to be born before then, he/she might need the vaccine separately from you. You should talk to your pediatrician.

Good luck!


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

To all of you that are not getting the vaccine. You state that you are healthy and that IF you do get it you will be able to shake it off as the flu isn't that virulent. I truly hope you realize that you are risking the lives of every one around you that is immune compromised, pregnant, asthmatic, or having any other serious chronic illness or medical condition. People not only put their own life at risk but others as well when you are not immunized. This goes for more than just the flu shot, it also goes for any of the numerous vaccinations/immunizations that children are required to have to be able to enter the public school system.

I work in HIV/AIDS and I know what a common cold can do to people who are immune compromised let alone the flu. Such illnesses will readily kill people with HIV. There are a number of ailments that the average person can come into contact with that the body will naturally fight off, pneumocistis (sp?) pneumonia is one, toxoplasmosis is another, even common drinking water can be dangerous as it can contain cryptosporidium (sp?). Walking around with a light case of the flu opens up immune compromised and pregnant women to all of the above.

Do you know that the person you are standing beside in the supermarket line-up doesn't fall into one of the categories I mentioned above, or the person on the bus, in the mall, or any one of the many and varied centres that we congregate in? There is an infectious stage in must illnesses where the infectious person doesn't fully realise that they are coming down with something. It is during that stage that most illnesses are spread. Think about your decisions about not getting vaccinated... would you like to risk the lives of Ameekplec, Ciddian or Myself or those like us in and about the city?

/dismounts soap box


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Very very good points there Knave...


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

ameekplec. said:


> I think the issue with the vaccine was either the dosage or number of dosages. Can't remember.
> 
> Myself, I get a flu shot every year as an asthmatic - pneumonia is a major concern for me, who already has compromised lung performance.
> 
> ...


yeah, women are really quite filthy when it comes to bathrooms. Often they semi stand over the can and let rip, not wiping off any misses, or they don't bother flushing... I won't continue. They will complain about the bathrooms being dirty, but they are the ones who don't plant their asses and make it dirty.

Although, I don't gennerally get the vaccine... I usually forget, I plot to get this year.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

You can find reliable information at fightflu.ca, the government web site.

H1N1 is different from seasonal flu in that it is much more likely to cause serious illness in younger, healthy adults. Seasonal flu is seldom serious except in the elderly and people with chronic illness. At least 76 people, mostly in PQ and Ont, have died from H1N1 so far.

Overall, H1N1 has been only a moderately severe strain in Canada, comparable to most seasonal flu strains, but because it is a new one, few people have any resistance acquired from previous exposures or flu shots of related strains.

As for pregnant women, they are in a priority group for H1N1 vaccination. It appears that they are at higher risk for severe illness, and I don't suppose a high fever and other flu effects are very good for the fetus. Note also, that a woman can only give her fetus (and infant, in the first days of breastfeeding) passive immunity to things she herself is immune to, so a flu shot for the pregnant woman will protect the baby for at least several months. Note also that with a new baby, no matter how healthy you are, you're going to be short on sleep and short on the time and energy to shop for and prepare a healthy diet!

The H1N1 vaccine won't be available until November. The government has ordered 50 million doses. Because it's a new strain of flu, it isn't known whether two doses will be significantly more effective in preventing illness. This vaccine uses an adjuvant, a material that stimulates the immune system to act more strongly to a lower dose of antigen. The version for pregnant women has more antigen and no adjuvant. I think this is because there haven't been many studies on the effect of adjuvant in pregnant women, so they aren't taking a chance.

No vaccine is 100% effective, and no vaccine is 100% safe. Most adverse reactions amount to a sore arm for a day or two, and occasionally people get mild flu-like symptoms because such symptoms are caused by the immune system's reaction to the vaccine, i.e. the same way it would react to the virus. When you are vaccinating tens of millions of people, you are going to get some one-in-a-million seriously bad reactions, but the concept is that this risk is worth the benefit: preventing thousands of excess deaths and many more serious cases - requiring hospitalization - from H1N1 flu. You always hear about the rare case of Guillaine-Barre, but not the thousands of people who didn't die of complications of the flu.

KnaveTO has a very good point. People with suppressed immune systems -- the elderly, people being treated for cancer or autoimmune diseases, people with chronic illnesses or illnesses of the immune system -- don't raise reliable immunity from vaccinations. The best way to protect these people is for those who surround them to be vaccinated, so they can't spread the flu to the vulnerable. The provincial govt has been trying to vaccinate as many people as possible for some years now, and it's good economics. You can vaccinate a lot of healthy people for the cost of treating one nursing home resident in intensive care with pneumonia. The flu season really sucks up a lot of resources in the emergency room, so every prevented case can save a lot of money and stress in the hospitals. 

Anyhow, if you want good info, get it from a knowledgable source like the Public Health Agency of Canada (fightflu.ca) or the CDC or WHO. If your doctor tells you something you're unsure about, ask for more info and explanation.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

we have such smarties on this forum.. :3 Thanks Bae!


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## Calmer (Mar 9, 2008)

And now to make things even more confusing this is now in the news. 
"Preliminary research suggests the seasonal flu shot may put people at greater risk for getting swine flu, CBC News has learned."

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/09/23/flu-shots-h1n1-seasonal.html


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Heh, time to give Don Low a call. 

It is disturbing to see how scientific results are so often twisted by the media.


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## JamesG (Feb 27, 2007)

Calmer said:


> And now to make things even more confusing this is now in the news.
> "Preliminary research suggests the seasonal flu shot may put people at greater risk for getting swine flu, CBC News has learned."
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/09/23/flu-shots-h1n1-seasonal.html


I heard that on 680 news and there are a variety of ways to easily debunk it. Firstly their sample size I heard was 2000 (not having read the cbc article), which is terrible. That is not enough people to draw any cause-effect conclusions on something in a real word (non-clinical) setting.

Secondly, people who are more likely to get swine flu live in urban areas and are also that much more likely to have convenient access to the seasonal flu vaccine, ex go to any number of toronto public health locations to get the free vaccine. To try and derive any logical result from this is bogus. They may as well just have said that people who are in contact with large numbers of people are at an increased risk for catching communicable diseases. Which is true, but everyone already knows this.

I would have no problem getting both vaccines at the same time. The swine flu vaccines are likely either dead virus or live attenuated virus. Attenuated means they let it reproduce for many cycles in a non-human animal such that the virus is now suited to infecting that species and will have trouble in humans. This is good for us because our body will be able to fight it off. Ex how tough would it be for one guy with a gun on a tower to take out 100 soldiers with no ladders or way of breaking in the door and no idea how to go about accomplishing either.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

JamesG said:


> I heard that on 680 news and there are a variety of ways to easily debunk it. Firstly their sample size I heard was 2000 (not having read the cbc article), which is terrible. That is not enough people to draw any cause-effect conclusions on something in a real word (non-clinical) setting.
> 
> Secondly, people who are more likely to get swine flu live in urban areas and are also that much more likely to have convenient access to the seasonal flu vaccine, ex go to any number of toronto public health locations to get the free vaccine. To try and derive any logical result from this is bogus. They may as well just have said that people who are in contact with large numbers of people are at an increased risk for catching communicable diseases. Which is true, but everyone already knows this.


I haven't read any articles on the subject, but I'm guessing any epidemiological study on a flu-like disease with a sample size of n<2000 lacks serious external validity.

Also, I was thinking more along the same lines as the second point - if one is getting the flu shot, one is probably among a group of people who is 1. succeptible to flu, 2. more likely to come into contact with flu, and therefore be more likely to catch it, or 3, once you already have the flu and therefore immunocompromised and so you're going to catch H1N1 if you come into contact with it.

Vaccines for the most part are completely safe.


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