# My new shrimps



## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Enjoy... I am so excited and going to spend HOURS to watch them everyday.


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## cape (Jun 18, 2010)

Very nice!


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

cape said:


> Very nice!


I know, I feel that I will start selling tickets to visit my shrimp room, but then... I want more people to see them so the tickets are on me ;-)


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## srolls (Apr 25, 2010)

gratz!!! prl or sss+?


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

srolls said:


> gratz!!! prl or sss+?


To be honest, I don't think it's possible to have PRL like that... it has to have golden to get to flowerhead, or the chance is nearly 0.

However, these are N generations down from the golden, so the gene is pretty stable now. Will still have godlen babies but the golden will also be very nice in quality.

This is from the same breeder.


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## srolls (Apr 25, 2010)

Oh because i think Mananap has some here the likehttp://ebi-ken-mananap.blogspot.ca/


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

srolls said:


> Oh because i think Mananap has some here the likehttp://ebi-ken-mananap.blogspot.ca/


I stand corrected then... I only know so much ;-) His shrimps is very very nice.


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## srolls (Apr 25, 2010)

randy said:


> I stand corrected then... I only know so much ;-) His shrimps is very very nice.


hehe i will try to take some pictures of my prl red leg and white leg tonight.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

srolls said:


> hehe i will try to take some pictures of my prl red leg and white leg tonight.


From Frank? I can't wait !!


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## srolls (Apr 25, 2010)

randy said:


> From Frank? I can't wait !!


Yup from Frank and Stephen (Mananp)


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## cape (Jun 18, 2010)

randy said:


> I know, I feel that I will start selling tickets to visit my shrimp room, but then... I want more people to see them so the tickets are on me ;-)


You have my number, I was ready to pay entry fee too.


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## srolls (Apr 25, 2010)

this is one of my prl =)


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

Wow randy! They look amazing


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## Scotmando (Jul 10, 2011)

Very nice Randy! I'll take 2 tickets too.

What does PRL stand for?


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## eatmysox (Jul 24, 2012)

Stunning as always randy 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

Scotmando said:


> Very nice Randy! I'll take 2 tickets too.
> 
> What does PRL stand for?


Pure Red Line


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Scotmando said:


> Very nice Randy! I'll take 2 tickets too.
> 
> What does PRL stand for?


PRL = Pure Red Line; Crystal Red Shrimps that have never crossed with golden in its pedigree. This kind of shrimps normally get better colours intensity on both red and white.

PBL＝ Pure Blood Line; Line breeding Crystal Red Shrimps from the same linage without introducing any other blood. (hence named pure blood). This type of shrimps aim for stable gene -- higher percentage of offspring should look similar to the parents, or certain trait is seen on high percentage of offspring such as white legs, red legs, white antennas etc.

Nowadays it's more often referred to a Pure Line and it gets confusing which one it is.

The ones in my pics are NOT PRL (the ones from srolls are), those shrimps in my pictures are more or less Pure Blood Line in the making.

Really though, to me, it's the quality of the shrimps that matters the most. The PRL/PBL status just tells you what the higher percentage of offspring will look like. And you have to trust the breeder on that because there's no way to find out by just looking at the shrimps.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

randy said:


> PRL = Pure Red Line; Crystal Red Shrimps that have never crossed with golden in its pedigree. This kind of shrimps normally get better colours intensity on both red and white.
> 
> PBL＝ Pure Blood Line; Line breeding Crystal Red Shrimps from the same linage without introducing any other blood. (hence named pure blood). This type of shrimps aim for stable gene -- higher percentage of offspring should look similar to the parents, or certain trait is seen on high percentage of offspring such as white legs, red legs, white antennas etc.
> 
> ...


can you re-elaborate on this. Your right that there is 2 sayings in PRL =純系蝦 and pure blood line = 純血蝦 (how did you come up with PBL? just because its pure blood line? your just going to confuse people with pure black line)

In Japan, they will use the words pure blood line more often because it gives it a more royalty categorizing of the line to it. Taiwan has begun to do it as well because everything japanese almost always becomes more expensive in the end.

However PRL and Pure blood lines are more or less the same thing. The only difference is if someone takes for an example Hakata from the Hakata family of red bees and breeds them without mixing it with anyone else other than the Hakata shrimps F1 they are not allowed to call them Hakata PRL (or pure blood line what have you) they need to can specify it is PRL offspring bred from the Hakata line. No one else breeding the shrimps is authorized to sell offsprings as the original lineage in which it comes from because the culling practices are different and how one perceives one quality and trait is different from the other. Yes, if you tell someone the shrimp you have is a pure blood line, you'll know its from a certain "lineage" unless that persons abusing the word just to make a sale. but after one generation the shrimp will become a pure red line regardless of how "pure blood" you keep it.

Saying that the distinction between pure blood line and pure red lines difference based on the reasoning that no other lineage or line was crossed is nonsense. If this were the case only 1 person can make this claim and that would be Hisayasu Suzuki, because all lines were derived from him. The lineage of a shrimp is all that really matters. The moment someone states Ebi-ten its the black thats found in the red and the red is a much more deeper red. MFF would be the famous red rostrum or red eyes (how do you think it was possible to get the red eyes? golden bee crossed and then line bred back keeping that trait as his signature blood line? just a speculation).

Stephan's or MananaP's PRL red legs will be (once its more known internationall)/ is known for breeding high consistancy of red legs with only the hino/no-entry pattern, not higher nor lower pattern. He hasn't crossed with any other line and has worked from scratch as well from common crystals so is his this so called "bloodline" or PRL?

If the reasoning behind the reasons is based on WWW or based on a few breeder friends then can you ask them to explain how you distinguish a __a___ PRL versus __a__ bloodline being that both were never crossed from different lineages and the bloodline is from the person that calls it the bloodline while the PRL is from the person that calls it that bloodline, just F1.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Hi Frank, I was just giving my definitions that's easier to understand. There are different opinions on this topic to the point it's controversial. I just choose to go with the simple definitions, as I don't chase any of the titles but just try to breed shrimps beautiful to my eyes. I have stated clearly these shrimps in my pictures are NOT PRL. Your experience humbles me hands down so feel free to educate me.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

randy said:


> Hi Frank, I was just giving my definitions that's easier to understand. There are different opinions on this topic to the point it's controversial. I just choose to go with the simple definitions, as I don't chase any of the titles but just try to breed shrimps beautiful to my eyes. I have stated clearly these shrimps in my pictures are NOT PRL. Your experience humbles me hands down so feel free to educate me.


I never said you stated your pics were pure blood or not. But the definition that you've stated of PRL vs Pure blood line according to you is not the same. and in your definition it suggests pure blood does line breeding whereas PRL doesn't. So my question is wheres this definition from and with the explanation I provided about only 1 person according to your definition of not having other lines in the "pure blood" would be only able to make that claim. Can you ask that source of information how PRL and pure blood is different.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Ebi-Ken said:


> I never said you stated your pics were pure blood or not. But the definition that you've stated of PRL vs Pure blood line according to you is not the same. and in your definition it suggests pure blood does line breeding whereas PRL doesn't. So my question is wheres this definition from and with the explanation I provided about only 1 person according to your definition of not having other lines in the "pure blood" would be only able to make that claim. Can you ask that source of information how PRL and pure blood is different.


The definitions I choose to follow is from my reading mostly online. I don't know where else I can get these information as a lot of breeders can't come to a common definitions for one reason or another, mostly because of business. According to my definitions Pure Red Line can be Pure Blood Line but they don't need to be. I never said they have to be different or have to be the same, just like a Chinese can also be a Canadian, there's no conflict, as long as definition is met.

Most of the famous lines (whatever type you chose to categorize them) are associated with their breeders' names, for these famous ones they almost always fit both definitions to achieve the high quality. There is no point in breeding a line for its lack of certain traits or good characteristics (colour etc).

If you are picking on the wording, true, all CRS today came from the same shrimp, then we should say all CRS we see are Pure Blood because no other linage has been added (there's no others). Plus, where was the first golden from?

This topic is controversial to say the least. No one has to agree with my definitions, and I don't really care for these status anyway since I'm not even close to be concerned about them. For now, I'll just keep admiring my shrimps. And thanks for the discussion.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

your first thing you wrote was this :

_PRL = Pure Red Line; Crystal Red Shrimps that have never crossed with golden in its pedigree. This kind of shrimps normally get better colours intensity on both red and white.

PBL＝ Pure Blood Line; Line breeding Crystal Red Shrimps from the same linage without introducing any other blood. (hence named pure blood). This type of shrimps aim for stable gene -- higher percentage of offspring should look similar to the parents, or certain trait is seen on high percentage of offspring such as white legs, red legs, white antennas etc._

and you've defined both.

The second thing that was said is:

_Nowadays it's more often referred to a Pure Line and it gets confusing which one it is._

but now you just said "_I never said they have to be different or have to be the same_"

and then you also said:
The ones in my pics are NOT PRL (the ones from srolls are), those shrimps in my pictures are more or less Pure Blood Line in the making

so that last sentence of what you said already seperates them as to being 2 different things.

but now if you say its a controversial topic and so on. Then as you've said "I don't really care for these status anyway since I'm not even close to be concerned about them" then what was the point above of stating that its pure blood line in the making? Based on your definition which your saying " No one has to agree with my definitions" then yea. I don't agree which is why I'm having this discussion to clarify things for the public to understand more clearly. I apologize if this appears to be picking on you. But when confronting your definition you just brush it off and say that " For now, I'll just keep admiring my shrimps." Your a very knowledgeable person but that doesn't mean what you say you don't need to own up to. I'm just trying to clarify why what was said.


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## jumpsmasher (Oct 1, 2012)

You have to feel for those japanese breeders - the term Pure Red Line was not something they used amongst themselves when they started nor do i think they ever came together to form a unified definition so they didn't really have much say in it. Now they are struck with all that baggage that comes with term.

I remember a while back someone in asia, i think it was singapore brought some named JPRL shrimps and a big controversy erupted when they started throwing out a bunch of snow white / golden bee F1's. The issue got escalated right up to the Japanese breeder who had to explain that what it mean when he said "never mixed with golden genes" which was basically that he would cull out any golden bee / snow white shrimps that showed up in his line but there was always a chance some might show up in the offsprings. And this was only one breeder, who knows, another Japanese breeder might be okay with using golden bees in their line. or maybe they use them for certain sublines. would it mean that some of his/her line are not PRL? 

Between the various languages and marketing lingo I am sure something got lost in translation and somewhere down the line some people got the impression that PRL mean you will never get golden offsprings but in reality it all depends on the breeder / lineage.

I always tell people PRL is just line bred crystal red / black shrimps plain and simple and I refer to them by who I got them from. Each breeder will have different targets and methods. Until there is some type of governing body that set the standards / definition for what is what it is easier to just see them as line breed shrimps without all that extra baggage.


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## Ebi-Ken (Jul 9, 2010)

That incident I'm not sure if I heard of from a friend. But it may have been the early stages of breeding their own line. And the singapore person that have purchased may have based it on the quality not knowing that it was still not "pure" My only issue is that 2 definitions were given and was implied they were seperate categories. Since the definition was their own so they claimed. When asked to explain they dismissed it and didn't own up to it. He claimed the ones pictured were pure blood line in the making and according to his definition it basically requires alot of work in culling and selectively breeding all in all being more all mighty. where as according to him the definition of PRL was simply not mixed although yes higher quality this and that. But jumpsmasher you've had experience with Mananap's PRL does his breed consistantly a certain trait ? like pattern? if yes then why is there a depiction of what PRL and pure blood is? and why his would be pure blood in the making and not mananaP's. If someone makes the claim of pure red line (PRL) its simple the breed pure red crystals. And then you can get to lineages if a specific trait is associated with the lineage. isn't that so much easier to understand? Sure, can say pure blood line but is there a difference after this discussion is what I'm trying to get at. If there isn't then there is no point to label one being more superior than the other. All requires work not one only does line breeding. The method is up to the breeder/lineage and culling rates and traits. Hopefully that clarifies it.


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## jumpsmasher (Oct 1, 2012)

Yay, that might of been the case where it was an relatively young line but once you attached one of those famous japanese breeders name to it and charge a pretty penny for it, expectations go thru the roof.

This is actually the first time I heard the term "Pure Blood Line" used as I can't read chinese so i never frequent any of the asian forums.

I should assume if you get some PRL from Breeder A and choose to only breed it with shrimps from that line, it would simply be denote as footnote but still be an PRL as it have been line breed for many generations to be an PRL in the first place.

I.e. _This is my line of PRL shrimps from Breeder A, which have never be mixed with other lines. _

Perhaps there need to be a definition of how many generations a CRS line have to be selectively breed before it become a "Pure Red Line" but for me i would consider any selectively line breed CRS's as PRL.

If you cross a CRS and a Golden and get some Mosura offsprings, won't they still be consider an CRS? and if they breed the CRS's from those offsprings for many generations, won't that be consider a Pure Red Line?



> PBL＝ Pure Blood Line; Line breeding Crystal Red Shrimps from the same linage without introducing any other blood. (hence named pure blood).


I think if randy just left it that it would be fine. well except the PBL part i always use PBL for Pure Black Line.

The following part I guess is what is at issue here as you can say the same about PRL. 


> This type of shrimps aim for stable gene -- higher percentage of offspring should look similar to the parents, or certain trait is seen on high percentage of offspring such as white legs, red legs, white antennas etc.


in the end it is up to the breeder. Perhaps PRL's been given a bad rap from people trying to make a quick buck by buying some PRL's and selling their F1 culls or not being very selective about their breeding.


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## Scotmando (Jul 10, 2011)

randy said:


> PRL = Pure Red Line; Crystal Red Shrimps that have never crossed with golden in its pedigree. This kind of shrimps normally get better colours intensity on both red and white.
> 
> PBL＝ Pure Blood Line; Line breeding Crystal Red Shrimps from the same linage without introducing any other blood. (hence named pure blood). This type of shrimps aim for stable gene -- higher percentage of offspring should look similar to the parents, or certain trait is seen on high percentage of offspring such as white legs, red legs, white antennas etc.
> 
> ...


Randy, thank you for your definition of PRL.

This has developed into a interesting discussion.

I think I opened up a "can of worms" or should I say "shrimp"!

I would still like those tickets to see your shrimp.

When's the viewing event?



Ebi-Ken said:


> can you re-elaborate on this. Your right that there is 2 sayings in PRL =純系蝦 and pure blood line = 純血蝦 (how did you come up with PBL? just because its pure blood line? your just going to confuse people with pure black line)
> 
> In Japan, they will use the words pure blood line more often because it gives it a more royalty categorizing of the line to it. Taiwan has begun to do it as well because everything japanese almost always becomes more expensive in the end.
> 
> ...


Frank, to make this a true two sided discussion, can you give us your definitions?

PRL= ?

PBL= ?

You seem to be very knowledgeable in the shrimp community and a lot of enthusiasts value your opinion, as well as Randy's.

Thanks, Scott


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## Shrimp Daddy (Mar 30, 2013)

Ebi-Ken said:


> your first thing you wrote was this :
> 
> _PRL = Pure Red Line; Crystal Red Shrimps that have never crossed with golden in its pedigree. This kind of shrimps normally get better colours intensity on both red and white.
> 
> ...


Chill out. Take some time out from thumping your chest to give us your definition.


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## LTPGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

randy said:


> Really though, to me, it's the quality of the shrimps that matters the most. The PRL/PBL status just tells you what the higher percentage of offspring will look like. And you have to trust the breeder on that because there's no way to find out by just looking at the shrimps.


Randy,

Thank you for the beautiful photos and the continual inspiration.

I am fascinated by your statement as quoted above - specifically the statement "it's the quality of the shrimps that matters..."

Would you shed some light on how quality can be achieved without specific lines? I ask because I know you're generally very good with sharing information that are otherwise not readily available.

Thanks in advance!


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

LTPGuy said:


> Randy,
> 
> Thank you for the beautiful photos and the continual inspiration.
> 
> ...


Hi LTPGuy, to get consistently higher quality, the only way I know is by selective breeding (or just buy them ;-). Breeding a "ready made" line is the fastest way to start, however, if you are adventurous, you can cross two or more line to achieve what your heart leads you. Or just start from scratch from shrimps with the characteristics you like. The difference is the time it will take to get where you are to be.

My point is, those terms are there to represent their background, and they normally come with a higher price tag. In my opinion they are worth every penny, but there are alternatives. I have a tank of those shrimps that cost $80+ each with the status, they are very nice but I also want to start something myself too.

I think the rule is simple, a good looking male x a good looking female will get you better looking babies. How many of the babies will be as good (or better) than their parents depends on how many generations you (or someone before you) have worked them. Of course, there's always a chance for mutation too ;-)


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## jumpsmasher (Oct 1, 2012)

Shrimp Daddy said:


> Chill out. Take some time out from thumping your chest to give us your definition.


I think Frank has already gave his definition / explanation of the two with his initial response.



Ebi-Ken said:


> In Japan, they will use the words pure blood line more often because it gives it a more royalty categorizing of the line to it.
> 
> However PRL and Pure blood lines are more or less the same thing. The only difference is if someone takes for an example Hakata from the Hakata family of red bees and breeds them without mixing it with anyone else other than the Hakata shrimps F1 they are not allowed to call them Hakata PRL (or pure blood line what have you) they need to can specify it is PRL offspring bred from the Hakata line. No one else breeding the shrimps is authorized to sell offsprings as the original lineage in which it comes from because the culling practices are different and how one perceives one quality and trait is different from the other.


I think it is important to notice that the term "Pure Red Line" was not used inside Japan - It made sense that the shrimps were refer to by which breeder's bloodines they belong to. As far as I know PRL or JPRL (Japanese Pure Red Line) was coined for the shrimps from those japanese breeders when they started to be exported outside of Japan.

I do have to say that by Randy's definition MananaP's PRL line would have to be considered a Pure Blood Line as well. I have some myself and as far as I know, they have not been mixed with shrimps outside his own line and they do exhibit many characteristics Randy listed below from many generations of line breeding;



randy said:


> PBL＝ Pure Blood Line; Line breeding Crystal Red Shrimps from the same linage without introducing any other blood. (hence named pure blood). This type of shrimps aim for stable gene -- higher percentage of offspring should look similar to the parents, or certain trait is seen on high percentage of offspring such as white legs, red legs, white antennas etc.


I while I agree it is the quality of the shrimp that is important, regardless or not it is an PRL or a "Pure Blood", when you purchase an PRL, there is a certain level of quality that is guarantee (in the offsprings) as certain traits has been refined by the breeder over several generation of selective line breeding. If these traits have been stabilized by the breeder than a large percentage of the offsprings will carry the same traits.

For me, I also assume PRL and "Pure Blood" were one and the same as I always associated each PRL line to their breeder / lineage and if that information was not available I won't think too much of them.

I do always wonder how PRL apply to a situation like this:

Say you take a Golden Bee and breed with a CRS and they produce some CRS F1's than they breed those CRS F1's together and so on with only the CRS offsprings, pulling out any Golden Bees. If you got this for many, many, many generations should they be consider an PRL line?

I don't think the fact of whether or not they are "pure" CRS with no golden genes really mattered that much to the breeder but rather to get an end result of a shrimp with certain stable traits.


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