# Wtf?!



## Shoryureppa

So...

I finally have this reef up and running. It's about 7 months old. As stable as I can get it. Fish are all finally healthy including a very delicate leopard wrasse. I couldn't be happier... or so it seems...

I bought decent test kits, I threw my API against the wall. Dosing is done with 2 part B-Ionic, water changes at 10%/week. Maintenance is pretty straight forward. It all take a few minutes per day plus the 10 minute water change.

Parameters are as follows:

Temp = 78
Salinity 1.025
Alk = 8.9dkh
Cal = 420ppm
Nitrates = 2ppm
Phosphate = not tested

All tests were done using Salifert kits

Pretty good right? I think so. Having never really kept a reef before, the numbers looked good to me.

But...

Now that the water is stable, problems began to arise.

I thought when the water was stable, the rest will fall into place.

Take a look:









You can blow the polyps off with a baster









What the heck is this white patch? My other colonies had this and it took weeks before they were completely white. It looks like its down to the skeleton - not bleaching. This also killed my RR Wolverine









I grew this from a frag and this started last week.

But This damn thing won't stop growing










All LPS are growing nicely.

I just don't get it.

AEFW? Red bugs? Anything wrong with the water? I'm out of theories...

Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance


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## ameekplec.

Test your phosphates, pH and Magnesium.

If it's taken weeks to get there, that's usually termed slow tissue necrosis, and isn't usually a parasite or anything like that - it's the result of parameters being off.


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## altcharacter

LPS and SPS tend to grow in different types of water from what I've seen. My SPS all died off but all my softies are doing amazing.

Good Luck Harold! I might visit one of these days since I need to go out to Chromey's house to pickup a frag


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## Shoryureppa

ameekplec. said:


> Test your phosphates, pH and Magnesium.
> 
> If it's taken weeks to get there, that's usually termed slow tissue necrosis, and isn't usually a parasite or anything like that - it's the result of parameters being off.


With Alk and Cal being stable, doesn't that correlate with ph and magnesium?

Why does the last coral continue to grow but the others keep dying?

I have 2 other SPS colonies that are growing nicely. It's really confusing.

STN - Learned something new today - read up on it before but never actually seen it happen.



altcharacter said:


> LPS and SPS tend to grow in different types of water from what I've seen. My SPS all died off but all my softies are doing amazing.
> 
> Good Luck Harold! I might visit one of these days since I need to go out to Chromey's house to pickup a frag


You're right they do grow on different types of water. LPS is minimal, just chalices and an elegance coral.

You're welcome to see it although its not much to look at. Maybe I'll just keep regular corals and focus on fish. Kinda like this:

http://reefbuilders.com/2012/03/02/digimans-nano-tank-rare-fish-paradise/


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## RR37

Lights ? Digitata does well in light that most other SPS will suffer under. (Including to much, either photoperiod or intensity) I've heard Slow TN is RTN but inadequate flow prevents the tissue from lifting quickly.


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## Taipan

I can't comment much on water chemistry (I'm the last person you want to ask) and it won't help with the pain....but we will all invariably run into this issue at one point or another. If you recall your visit to "Nineball's" house.....he's having a MAJOR Acro Eating Flatworm issue. Imagine a majority of his SPS being wiped out. In my own case of STN (Slow Tissue Necrosis); I had an Alk issue. Friends had parasites.

"Wtf" is an expression that is frequently used in my household with respect to this hobby. Get used to it 

P.S. - Bird's Nest Coral - Seriatopora is generally considered fairly easy/indestructible. It will be a traditional 'survivor' SPS. At least in my display. lol


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## rburns24

"I've heard Slow TN is RTN but inadequate flow prevents the tissue from lifting quickly."

Incorrect. I've had STN in lots of flow and it took 3-4 weeks. RTN is one or two days.


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## Shoryureppa

First off, thank you all for the really fast and helpful responses. I really love that about this site 



RR37 said:


> Lights ? Digitata does well in light that most other SPS will suffer under. (Including to much, either photoperiod or intensity) I've heard Slow TN is RTN but inadequate flow prevents the tissue from lifting quickly.


Lights are 2 AI sols with a 10 hour photoperiod peaking at 75% for 2 hours, all 70 degree optics. Flow is from 2 MP40 at 90% alternating long pulse.



Taipan said:


> I can't comment much on water chemistry (I'm the last person you want to ask) and it won't help with the pain....but we will all invariably run into this issue at one point or another. If you recall your visit to "Nineball's" house.....he's having a MAJOR Acro Eating Flatworm issue. Imagine a majority of his SPS being wiped out. In my own case of STN (Slow Tissue Necrosis); I had an Alk issue. Friends had parasites.
> 
> "Wtf" is an expression that is frequently used in my household with respect to this hobby. Get used to it
> 
> P.S. - Bird's Nest Coral - Seriatopora is generally considered fairly easy/indestructible. It will be a traditional 'survivor' SPS. At least in my display. lol


Thanks dude. I'm going to monitor the Alk more closely. The Alk does dip to about 7.5. Calcium is steady at 420ppm.

I can't even recall how many times I've looked into my tank and said "WTF?" LOL



rburns24 said:


> "I've heard Slow TN is RTN but inadequate flow prevents the tissue from lifting quickly."
> 
> Incorrect. I've had STN in lots of flow and it took 3-4 weeks. RTN is one or two days.


Thanks for the clarification. I've always been confused with the two.


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## ameekplec.

Alk and Ca are tightly correlated, but even if your Alk and Ca are bang on, your Mg can be way out of whack. There's more than three ions in your water so theres much more that can be out of whack.

Did this also JUST start a few weeks ago? Did you change anything recently? One thing that can trigger STN (I've found anyways) is changing your GFO, and adding too much. I did that recently - got some STN here and there, but a few WCs and you're usually back on track.

If you don't have a test kit for the parameters mentioned above, I'd do one of the best things you can do: just do a lot of WCs


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## Shoryureppa

Ok I'm confused with the ions but I will do the next best thing... water changes.

I love doing lots of work


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## TypeZERO

I agree with post above in that something is not stable. Alk is the big one that should be stabilized. Magnesium is important with calcium and alk and 3 work together. IMO lighting stress never killed corals for me, they just bleach out but will return back to normal within a month or so. 
Harold, are you running carbon? If not, try running it so it can suck up what ever bad things in your water that may cause this. Just like GFO dont run too much carbon too quickly, slowly build up.


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## sig

Aqua Illumination - to much whites

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## Shoryureppa

TypeZERO said:


> I agree with post above in that something is not stable. Alk is the big one that should be stabilized. Magnesium is important with calcium and alk and 3 work together. IMO lighting stress never killed corals for me, they just bleach out but will return back to normal within a month or so.
> Harold, are you running carbon? If not, try running it so it can suck up what ever bad things in your water that may cause this. Just like GFO dont run too much carbon too quickly, slowly build up.


Yes I am running carbon and GFO. I have it in a TLF150 each. I've been running them for a while now and I've never really had any problems before. CArbon is full, I ran way more before it was in a reactor. GFO is a quarter full. I had more before but ran thin this time around. I'm going to swith it back to Rowaphos though.

It's definitely not the lighting. It was when I added this that I really started seeing new growth tips on the SPS's.

I'll keep rechecking the alk and I'll get some test kits this weekend. If anything, I'll break it down and start over...

Thank for the advice dude


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## Shoryureppa

sig said:


> Aqua Illumination - to much whites


I was seriously thinking of selling these and buying a ATI Dimmable Sunpower.

T5's are definitely easier to work with. All you really worry about is changing bulbs.

Did you choose the dimensions for your monster tank yet?


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## Tristan

Did you end up pulling out some of your sand, or disturb the sand bed? I remember we were talking about that last week.


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## Shoryureppa

Tristan said:


> Did you end up pulling out some of your sand, or disturb the sand bed? I remember we were talking about that last week.


No dude, not yet. If I end up breaking this down and start over, I'm gonna pull it all out and leave about 1/5 an inch.

I chickened out as I read somewhere to never disturb the sand till after a year.


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## rburns24

I've read in more than a few places to just replace 50% of it at a time. That way it doesn't disturb the biological balance of the tank too much.


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## Shoryureppa

rburns24 said:


> I've read in more than a few places to just replace 50% of it at a time. That way it doesn't disturb the biological balance of the tank too much.


I think 50% is too drastic. I have a 4.5 inch deep sand bed and I can clearly see where the nitrogen bubbles stop. If I took 50% of it off. i think it will cause a cycle - Thanks Tristan 

I think an inch at a time is ok.


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## rburns24

Shoryureppa said:


> I think 50% is too drastic. I have a 4.5 inch deep sand bed and I can clearly see where the nitrogen bubbles stop. If I took 50% of it off. i think it will cause a cycle - Thanks Tristan
> 
> I think an inch at a time is ok.


This is true. Sorry about that. Didn't know you had a DSB.


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## altcharacter

Shoryureppa said:


> I think an inch at a time is ok.




If I had a dollar for everytime I heard this....


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## Flexin5

how high are your lights above the tank? and is that 75% blue, royal blue and white? 

if so that might be your problem. 75% is really strong for the AI lights.


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## Shoryureppa

Flexin5 said:


> how high are your lights above the tank? and is that 75% blue, royal blue and white?
> 
> if so that might be your problem. 75% is really strong for the AI lights.


Hey dude! Lights are at 12 inches AWL. And yes 75% on all channels. It's been that way for months.


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## TypeZERO

I would agree 75 is very strong, but light stress usually in my case dont cause necrosis, just lots and lots of colour lost. What have you start dosing?


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## Shoryureppa

TypeZERO said:


> I would agree 75 is very strong, but light stress usually in my case dont cause necrosis, just lots and lots of colour lost. What have you start dosing?


I'm a newb but I'll agree since I have seen your tank 

I dose B-Ionic 2 part 50mls alk and 40 Cal to keep it at the levels I mentioned. Someone said a doser would be Ideal to prevent spike from dosing it all at once. It makes sense to me... BUT what do you guys think?


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## thmh

damn man.....that sucks! let us know if you need help.


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## Shoryureppa

thmh said:


> damn man.....that sucks! let us know if you need help.


Thanks for the offer bro! Im thinking I would just do what I can with water changes and light dosing and see what happens. If they die they die, I will start over. BUT...

Im actually curious if there is something in the water causing this. Consider this:

1.Light schedule has been the same, intensity and photoperiod for months.
2.Weekly water change with the same damn salt at 5 sometime 10%
3.Dosing has been consitent for month at the levels I mentioned.
4.I ran GFO/Rowaphos and carbon for months.
5.Water topped off at morning and night.

The only thing I added was the nitra gurad bio cubes which have been working fantastic. Nitrates were at 10ppm and is now at 2ppm.

I'm not sure where phosphates are but there is barely any algae left.

Mental Note:

Keep easy corals and just buy fish


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## Tristan

How fast did your nitrates drop? If you stripped them in a matter of days that might have caused it....I know going from "dirty" water to cleaner water shouldn't cause any issues but that seems to be the only change.


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## Taipan

....What Tristan said. +1 . I would have said it less eloquently.


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## TypeZERO

Added on to that I heard stripping phosphates too quickly can also kill corals. Does the nitraguard decrease phosphates too?


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## aquatic_expressions

Too keep a succesful reef you must find a balance or an equilibrium and consistency.

This is true in every aspect of the hobby and life in general.

Lighting ~ Nutrients ~ Water Parameters

#1 is your lighting sufficient for your system?

#2 What kind of water are you using? There is truth to using RO DI water and a quality salt mix. - The better the salt mix the less you will spend on additives. I have used Tropic Marin Pro Reef and Red Sea Pro Coral Salt with great success but I will be moving to Seachem's Salinity next. Unfortunately there are a lot of things that regular tap water has that is undetectable such as medications that have been flushed and other things. I strictly use RO/DI water with my mix and never use tap.

#3 How much are you feeding the aquarium and how are the nutrients controlled? Frequent water changes, protein skimmer, bio pellets, etc?

#4 You will need to test frequently. Your test result will always be fluctuating until your tank finds an equilibrium. Use a good quality test kit. There is a reason why people don't use prego test kits from the dollar store.

#5 Have you dipped and quarantine all your corals before adding them in your aquarium? This is something that a lot of us are guilty and do not see the importance of doing. Just like fish corals need to be quarantined.

#6 How long do you run carbon for? 

#7 What size of water change are you doing? I do a 25% water change once a week.

#8 I think an auto top off would help keep levels more stable in the sense you will have less fluctuation... Also what is your temperature?


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## rburns24

For what it's worth, I've found the 2 main causes of RTN-STN are:-

1. Alkalinity problems
2. Too low nutrient levels due to either GFO or a very aggressive carbon(too much flow or quantity)

I'm going through the same thing as you are, although to much lesser extent. I checked my phosphate test results for the last 3 months and they all read 0. That scares me and the first thing I did when the lights came on today was to feed the fish some frozen brine shrimp, which will add phosphates to the water. When the phosphates are around .01 to .02ppm, I'll back off with frozen brine shrimp a little and continue to test.

I'm not in any way saying that is for sure your problem or anything like that, but if it turns out to be the case, I wouldn't be surprised, either. 

If it's any consolation to you, I've been at this for just over a year and have devoted a fair amount of time, effort and money to this pursuit, and I'm not where I want to be, but am getting closer.


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## liz

when you say Alkalinity problems are you saying that it is too high or too low?


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## rburns24

More often than not, too high, especially if you run a ULNS like Zeovit, or any other ULNS for that matter.

I think the Zeovit system is the most unforgiving of all the ULNS systems, but I'm probably biased in that
view, because that's what I'm using.


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## Shoryureppa

*aquatic_expressions:*

Thanks for replying! feel like I'm talking to a biologist 

Too keep a succesful reef you must find a balance or an equilibrium and consistency.

This is true in every aspect of the hobby and life in general.

Lighting ~ Nutrients ~ Water Parameters

#1 is your lighting sufficient for your system? Yes - 2 AI Sols

#2 What kind of water are you using? There is truth to using RO DI water and a quality salt mix. - The better the salt mix the less you will spend on additives. I have used Tropic Marin Pro Reef and Red Sea Pro Coral Salt with great success but I will be moving to Seachem's Salinity next. Unfortunately there are a lot of things that regular tap water has that is undetectable such as medications that have been flushed and other things. I strictly use RO/DI water with my mix and never use tap. RODI from The beginning

#3 How much are you feeding the aquarium and how are the nutrients controlled? Frequent water changes, protein skimmer, bio pellets, etc? Fed twice a day, either: omega brine or mysis plus once with live blackworms. Water changes at 5-10 percent per week, SWC 160 skimmer, niraguard bio cubes, 20 gallon refugium, GAS and GFO n a reactor but I took the GFO offline last night

#4 You will need to test frequently. Your test result will always be fluctuating until your tank finds an equilibrium. Use a good quality test kit. There is a reason why people don't use prego test kits from the dollar store. I use salifert and am going to purchase the phosphate and mag this week

#5 Have you dipped and quarantine all your corals before adding them in your aquarium? This is something that a lot of us are guilty and do not see the importance of doing. Just like fish corals need to be quarantined. I dip all the corals before they go in.

#6 How long do you run carbon for? I never stop running it, its in a reactor, Should I?

#7 What size of water change are you doing? I do a 25% water change once a week.

#8 I think an auto top off would help keep levels more stable in the sense you will have less fluctuation... Also what is your temperature? Tank temp is at 78 and I'm waiting on a Tunze ATO[/QUOTE]

Thanks for replying, I love the precise questions


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## Shoryureppa

Tristan said:


> How fast did your nitrates drop? If you stripped them in a matter of days that might have caused it....I know going from "dirty" water to cleaner water shouldn't cause any issues but that seems to be the only change.


I dont know if its fast but I ran the first batch for a month and didn't see any changes so I added the rest 750ml and thats when it took off. from 10ppm to 2ppm in two weeks - is that fast?



Taipan said:


> ....What Tristan said. +1 . I would have said it less eloquently.


Put the beer down before typing 



TypeZERO said:


> Added on to that I heard stripping phosphates too quickly can also kill corals. Does the nitraguard decrease phosphates too?


No dude just nitrates



rburns24 said:


> For what it's worth, I've found the 2 main causes of RTN-STN are:-
> 
> 1. Alkalinity problems
> 2. Too low nutrient levels due to either GFO or a very aggressive carbon(too much flow or quantity)
> 
> I'm going through the same thing as you are, although to much lesser extent. I checked my phosphate test results for the last 3 months and they all read 0. That scares me and the first thing I did when the lights came on today was to feed the fish some frozen brine shrimp, which will add phosphates to the water. When the phosphates are around .01 to .02ppm, I'll back off with frozen brine shrimp a little and continue to test.
> 
> I'm not in any way saying that is for sure your problem or anything like that, but if it turns out to be the case, I wouldn't be surprised, either.
> 
> If it's any consolation to you, I've been at this for just over a year and have devoted a fair amount of time, effort and money to this pursuit, and I'm not where I want to be, but am getting closer.


I don't think the phosphates are at 0 because there is some red algae but in minimal patches.

I've always been told I feed heavy. equal or more to a cube of mysis plus live blackworms.

Thanks for the suggestions though and I'll look into it.

Im thinking of slowly removing the GFO and cubes etc and just run it the way I did before with just a skimmer, carbon and a refugium with the occasional rowaphos and see what happens.


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## rburns24

After seeing your feeding schedule, that pretty well rules out too low a phosphate level. If you slowly remove your GFO and cubes, hopefully that will solve the problem.

Hopefully it's too much GFO, because that's an easy one to solve.


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## Shoryureppa

rburns24 said:


> After seeing your feeding schedule, that pretty well rules out too low a phosphate level. If you slowly remove your GFO and cubes, hopefully that will solve the problem.
> 
> Hopefully it's too much GFO, because that's an easy one to solve.


Thanks! I'm hoping that is the issue too. It ran fine before without adding all the stuff on it so we will see. I'm still doing 10% water changes every other day until I see it stable.


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## rburns24

Great title for the thread, by the way. I can really identify with that at times.


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## rburns24

How's you tank doing now? I started feeding the few fish I have brine shrimp every day and only run my reactor 50% of the time. I'm happy to say my phosphates are at .024ppm, as opposed to 0 all the time and the 4 corals that have STN are starting to recover.


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## fesso clown

yes, update please... following... 
I am also running what may be too much GFO. My Red Sea P04 test won't even change colour. 0 is supposed to be yellow but I test clear every time. I know my AKL and CAL are a little low but I am also experiencing similar symptoms...


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## rburns24

If you know someone with a Hanna 736ULR phosphate checker, ask them to run a test on your water. Red Sea PO4 test kits don't exactly have a reputation for accuracy.


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## Shoryureppa

So quick update for fesso and burns. 

I never figured out what went wrog but I am linking it to an imbalance in nutrients minerals etc.

Since then I've been doing ten gallon water changes every other day. this time though I aerate the new saltwater before putting it in the tank for 24hours. 

I removed the gfo completely and stuck with the bio cubes but in a reactor with an airline going into the pump. worked better than expected nitrates very close to 0(salifert).

I let the R/O unit run for 15 minutes before putting water in the bucket. I don't know exactly what that did but my red algae is almost gone. It supposedly makes the R/O unit run cleaner. I thought I'd give it a shot.

Corals have come back. I lost a few but that's the name of the game I guess. My montipora setosa that was STN'ing is now healing so I'm keeping up with the water change for a few more weeks then just do a 10 gallon weekly change.

I wanted to thank everyone for the help and advice. Really valuable opinions and information you guys have. Thank you


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## rburns24

Glad to hear things are turning around for you. I don't like GFO personally, so IMHO, removing it is all
for the good. When I mix salt water, I run air through the RO water first, because RO water is completely 
depleted of oxygen. I can't explain why in any coherent manner, but I think it is a good practice.

Funny coincidence. I have a setosa I got from Greg that has STN and is now recovering, too.


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