# Hybrid Cichlids?



## Cory

I was talking about them with a friend the other night and I was curious what some of the GTAaquaria folks think about the subject? I think we've talked about it before but there are a lot of new faces since then. 

Personally I value the purity of the lake species but I don't see hybrids as really putting the pure fish at risk as folks will always breed the true fish as purists whether or not someone else is making frankensteins in their basement. I think if it can produce a viable and worthwhile fish that is something to look at then it's not a bad thing so long as they are properly identified. I always sell my jelly bean parrots as convict x parrot crosses. I don't have any other hybrids and don't foresee any in the near future but Im not opposed to it if someone can create a really nice fish. 

I don't limit it to cichlids, other hybrids are possible just less likely. 

What are your thoughts? Let's keep it civil !


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## Tropicana

lol i think hybrids are neat as long as there in your tank and not any lakes period. as hybrids will be subject to mutation and would basicly be another species in an already balanced setting. If fish cross naturally in lakes then clearly it has happened in the past and thats the way nature intended it to be considering they are related some how.


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## Riceburner

to me if they look good then they are great.


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## bluekrissyspikes

i like hybrids as long as they happen 'naturally'. i don't approve of people using horomones or other additives to encourage the fish to cross breed, but if the fish are 'in love' than it's all good.


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## BillD

Personally, I don't care for hybrids (blood parrots are offensive), or even the mutants (such as angel rams). Having said that, I love Koi angels, which are selectively bred scalare sp. angels. There are so many interesting breeds of cichlid (and others) with new ones being found frequently, I see no need for hybrids, particularly those frankenfish from the lab. Attempting to keep pure species is going to get progressively more difficult as amateur breedeers move their impure fry, not always knowing what they really are.


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## planter

They don't bother me. As long as the the health of the fish is good I could really care less.


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## papik

there's nothing wrong with breeding hybrid's..... they could lead to new breeds..... rather exciting actually


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## wannabefishguy

As a new guy to this forum I would like to say hello all, but in regards to your question I would have to say that hybrids can only be considered a problem if they are not properly identified by the breader/seller of the fish. I myself have created a bifasciatum/hartwegi hybrid(by accident) that was sold to big als scarborough, but I made sure that they new what they were getting before hand.


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## Platypus

If you didn't force it to happen i.e. with hormones and what nots, and it happened naturally, then why not. Anyways, experiencing the breeding process is very magical, and in the end, hybrids are sometimes better looking, smarter and unique.


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## Jackson

I think hybrid cichlids are nasty and should not be sold at all. Like all those nasty hybrids you see in most Asian LFS. They are just a shame to see and who wants to pay top dollar for a mistake. These people are playing god and it is just wrong.

"If you didn't force it to happen i.e. with hormones and what nots, and it happened naturally, then why not. Anyways, experiencing the breeding process is very magical, and in the end, hybrids are sometimes better looking, smarter and unique"

The only natural hybrids are ones who have crossed in the wild. Hormones or not if it is done in a tank or fish farm that is not natural in any way.


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## Grey Legion

I have to agree with Jackson.

His/her post may come off a bit abrasive but the point is correct.


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## Bebu

I also concur.. Some cichlid forums out there are suggesting you terminate any hybrid fish, let alone sell them.. though I wouldn't go that far...

The fear is that there will always be someone (as with many things in life) who behaves irresponsibly and tries to sell a convincingly conspecific fish (but really hybrid) and then some unsuspecting, inexperienced breeder, buys it, breeds it and then.............. (etc, etc, you can guess the rest). 

Thus the gene pool of local captive bred fish is sullied, and worst case scenario, this fish gets somehow back to africa and we all die of ebola.. (though that last part is quite unlikely).


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## drift-wood

Hi all I am new to the forum as well. and would like to say Hello and add my two bits if i may 

i am not a big fan of many hybrids, balloons, etc. however some of these crosses do turn out to be very nice and are great for the hobby and some enthusiasts who just like the look. if we were to look back at time and not just at fish, if i am not mistaken are ornamental goldfish not a result of selective breeding and hybridization? look at every dog you see when you walk on the street in what ever century they were created the people at the time hybridzed certain dog species to come up with something new for themselves or hunting, herding, retrieving.

We are definitely in a sensitve time where we want to make sure authenticity is key and we dont lose the original state of any fish species as they were intended and evolved. so my say is as long as we have "hope" in responsible breeding and breeders they can determine what that future holds. And regardless of it being a hybrid no pet fish should ever be released into any waters. 

thanks.


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## BillD

Dog varieties are not hybrids as they are all the same species. Goldfish also are not hybrids. The loss of species is a valid concern. We already have many species that are extinct in the wild. It is bad enough when there are accidental crosses, but there are many that are purposely trying to make new species. It is the same mentality that has brought us dyed and tattooed fish. There are enough interesting and attractive species available to the aquarist, that we don't need to create new ones. The worst are the frankenfish such as blood parrots, that couldn't possibly survive outside an aquarium. I realize that many goldfish varieties fall into this category, but that was done long ago.


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## Riceburner

If a hybrid looks completely unique and looks great, why not? If it's too similar to one of the parents, then it's a mutt and should not be sold as anything but a hybrid. Ppl have been selective breeding animals and plants for centuries. Anyone want to guess how many "pure" strains exist vs hybrid?


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## Jackson

Riceburner said:


> If a hybrid looks completely unique and looks great, why not? If it's too similar to one of the parents, then it's a mutt and should not be sold as anything but a hybrid. Ppl have been selective breeding animals and plants for centuries. Anyone want to guess how many "pure" strains exist vs hybrid?


The reason we don't know is because people have cross bred fish from the start. Plants I wont comment on because hybrids plants most of the time are created to benefit man kind ( I hope LOL ). 
There still are lots of pure strains out there. Not every hobbyist who owns cichlids are irresponsible people. Most that I know will not mix types who will cross breed.

Now catfish are becoming a problem. They take huge catfish like the RTC and cross it with a smaller catfish so they can be kept in smaller tanks. That is just wrong and should not be done.


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## bigfishy

I got a question!!!

Let me put myself into the question

I was born in Asia and IF I got a girl friend from East Africa. If we dated, married and have a baby.

Since we will never meet in the wild (different continent)

Is that a form of Hybrid Human?  

Is that Hybrid Human a good thing? or a bad thing? or something else?

There are no right or wrong between a hybrid fish or a hybrid human, it is just how we look at it!


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## Riceburner

my kids are hybrids.


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## Jackson

bigfishy said:


> I got a question!!!
> 
> Let me put myself into the question
> 
> I was born in Asia and IF I got a girl friend from East Africa. If we dated, married and have a baby.
> 
> Since we will never meet in the wild (different continent)
> 
> Is that a form of Hybrid Human?
> 
> Is that Hybrid Human a good thing? or a bad thing? or something else?
> 
> There are no right or wrong between a hybrid fish or a hybrid human, it is just how we look at it!


LOL

Hybrid fish are wrong no one can argue that. It is just wrong. There are so many cichlids that are in the hobby now that have people guessing what they are. How is that right?

Humans are all **** sapiens. you can not hybridize a human. Oh unless you are Dr. Moreau LMAO.

Race has nothing to do with what species of animal we are.

I am a mix of races but I am still a regular human  I don't have wings or gills LOL

As for is a mixed race human wrong. Only in the eyes of a racist human. Otherwise who the hell really cares.


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## Riceburner

> Hybrid (biology), the offspring resulting from cross-breeding of different plants or animals.


...what's considered different?



> Hybrid - Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.


Guess it depends on your definition. If mixing **** sapiens isn't hybridizing, wouldn't mixing mumbai cichlid not be either?



> I don't have wings or gills


 ...wouldn't that be mutation instead of hybrid?

...just tossing gas on the bonfire...


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## gucci17

lol this is one of those threads with no end...

I would prefer if people did not intentionally create hybrids but there isn't much we can do to stop it. The best we can do is raise awareness in forums and hope fish keepers would be more responsible. 

I personally try my best to keep any species apart if there are chances they may breed. Not worth it...unless you need a steady supply of feeders. lol


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## Riceburner

yeah, I keep separate tanks for that reason.



...but wonder if I squeezed a African cichlid female eggs and squeezed a male new world cichlid ....would I get something interesting or.....




......2 dead fish?


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## Jackson

Riceburner said:


> ...what's considered different?
> 
> Guess it depends on your definition. If mixing **** sapiens isn't hybridizing, wouldn't mixing mumbai cichlid not be either?
> 
> ...wouldn't that be mutation instead of hybrid?
> 
> ...just tossing gas on the bonfire...


LMAO you know I was joking 

I think it still is in a way they are not considered a race of fish LOL

Just like synos people freak out when they see one type mixed with another type. I had my a$$ handed to me just for saying nice looking fish LOL


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## bigfishy

I wonder what would happen if a L330 + L418

Gold Spot Watermelon?
Watermelon with Gold Trim?

I would love that pleco for sure~    

--------
Too bad none of my fish breed, so can't hybridize


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## Jackson

bigfishy said:


> I wonder what would happen if a L330 + L418
> 
> Gold Spot Watermelon?
> Watermelon with Gold Trim?
> 
> I would love that pleco for sure~
> 
> --------
> Too bad none of my fish breed, so can't hybridize


My personal opinion is all plec's are hybrids that is why there are so many different types  Maybe one day we will all know if this is true or not.


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## Jonathan

I'm in favour of avoiding hybridization if it is allowed to happen indescriminately. Mbuna in particular are notorious for mixing it up. _Labidochromus_ will spawn with _Metriaclima _ if there are no conspecific males around.
These fry should be discarded IMHO


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## bluekrissyspikes

Jackson said:


> LMAO you know I was joking
> 
> I think it still is in a way they are not considered a race of fish LOL
> 
> Just like synos people freak out when they see one type mixed with another type. I had my a$$ handed to me just for saying nice looking fish LOL


i never could understand why humans have 'races' and all other animals have sub-species and species. seems odd to me. if they are all different types of cichlids that can breed together then that's the same as different types of humans 'breeding' together......so why is it so important to keep the cichlid bloodlines pure but totally not okay to even mention the same for people?


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## Jackson

bluekrissyspikes said:


> i never could understand why humans have 'races' and all other animals have sub-species and species. seems odd to me. if they are all different types of cichlids that can breed together then that's the same as different types of humans 'breeding' together......so why is it so important to keep the cichlid bloodlines pure but totally not okay to even mention the same for people?


I guess we are the ones choosing to mix races the fish have no choice if we drop them into a tank and say go. They don't know any better. That is the best answer I can come up with. Plus by mixing all these fish people are destroying some species in the trade.

Plus saying ( not directed towards you ) a black person and a white person should not or are not allowed to have kids together is thinking like Hitler and all the other pigs just like him. Keeping the blood pure is not doing drugs LOL


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## bae

bluekrissyspikes said:


> i never could understand why humans have 'races' and all other animals have sub-species and species. seems odd to me. if they are all different types of cichlids that can breed together then that's the same as different types of humans 'breeding' together......so why is it so important to keep the cichlid bloodlines pure but totally not okay to even mention the same for people?


So-called human races don't fit the biological description of sub-species. If you look at pictures of people from all over the world, you'll see that the characteristics we think of as racial are actually found in gradients. West Africans have the traits we think of as 'black' -- very dark skin, characteristic nose shape and hair texture, etc., but in east Africa people have lighter skin, less flat noses, etc. Similarly, the traits we think of as east Asian are found as a gradient across central Asia to eastern Europe, as well as into the SW Pacific. There has been continuous movement of peoples across the eastern hemisphere with constant interbreeding over many thousands of years. There's been some selection for these traits, just as with other animals -- e.g. darker skin is favorable in hot or sunny climates as protection from sunburn, but paler skin is favorable in cold or cloudy climates where people wear more clothing and get less exposure to sunlight, so may develop vitamin D deficiencies and rickets, a bone deformity that commonly results in narrowed pelvises and death in childbirth.

If you look at molecular markers, these are distributed very broadly across the human population. There are very few genes involved in the traits we identify as racial. If anything, humans could be regarded as having interbreeding populations, somewhat like 'locations' in fish. E.g. non-brown eyes are far more common in northern Europe (and populations descending from northern Europeans) than elsewhere in the world. There's similar distributions for epicanthic fold, the eyelid shape characteristic of people from east Asia, curly or kinky hair, blood type frequencies, etc.

The upshot is that humans are one species, **** sapiens. There's continuous debate about whether Neanderthals were a species or a subspecies and whether the two groups could or did interbreed. The genus **** has been around for a few million years, and **** sapiens probably for only 100,000 years or so.

Cichlids are a family, and that's a higher taxonomic level than genus or species. Cichlids have been around since before Gondwanaland broke up into India, Africa and South America, but after Australia and Antartica broke off this supercontinent, on the order of 100 million years or more. However, they've undergone extremely rapid speciation quite recently due to climate change. During the ice ages, the Amazon rainforest was mostly savanna, and speciation of groups like the Apistogrammas occured in isolated patches of forest. So these species may be only 20-50,000 years old. By geological evidence, Lake Victoria was dry 12,500 years ago, so all endemic species are no older than that. Within historical times, Lake Malawi was much smaller, and there are many mbuna species that are only found around islands that were rocky outcrops on dry land only 200 years ago, so these species can't be any older than that.

Because these species are so new, they are still biologically compatible with each other from breeding, although in nature they seldom interbreed. This 'explosive speciation' has given rise to what's called 'species swarms' or 'species flocks'. Because these species are so new, they are still biologically compatible with each other for breeding, although in nature they seldom interbreed. There are some interesting papers about 'reticulate (net-like) phylogeny' that have shown that some lamprologine species in Lake Tanganyika arose due to crosses between 'good' species, in particular in shell beds, where multiple species breed in close proximity and eggs can be rarely fertilized by sperm from a male of another species spawning close by, but this is the exception rather than the rule, and for many millions of times this happened, only a few new species arose.

Whether it's 'okay' to cross breed fish in captivity is a question of whether you want to maintain these natural species or just make pretty fish. There's a risk of losing the pure species because offspring of crosses and backcrosses may resemble one of the parent species enough that confusion can arise. Even if breeders tell purchasers that the fish are hybrids, this information can get lost when the fish or their offspring are resold, unless they are very distinct from the parents, e.g. flowerhorns or OB peacocks. But even these hybrid fish can produce fry that resemble one of the parent species, so can 'contaminate' captive populations of that species. We've all seen pictures of fish for sale under a species name that clearly are not pure. Recently I saw a picture of alleged L.caeruleus (yellow labs) that had no black markings and a more elongated body shape. The picture showed dozens of identical fish, so there had been inbreeding to establish this group. I don't think the vendor was trying to fool anybody -- he believed he had the real species.

Note that a species is not just its physical appearance. it's its physiology and behaviour as well. Cichlids have such wonderful adaptations and such complex and distinctive behaviours that can only be scrambled and lost in hybrids.

Endler's livebearer is probably extinct in the wild, since it was probably endemic to a location destroyed by a garbage dump. Even before it was described (written up and given a formal scientic name - Poecilia wingei) captive stocks were contaminated by interbreeding with guppies. Even 'pure' Endler's have some guppy ancestry. Is this a loss? You decide.


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## Cory

Interesting read bae . I don't think the part about Endler's is accurate but otherwise it's pretty good. I've recently read a couple really good articles on cichlid and other hybrids in TFH and the general impression I get is that hybridization isn't as bad as people make it out to be, nor is it devastating to natural species. The naturally occurring species will continue to occur in their native habitats regardless of what goes on in our aquariums and so a source of pure fish will always be available. The only real value in a pure cichlid is the value given to it by its owner. Some might think a pure whatever cichlid is a prize whilst others would consider a hybrid more valuable the distinction is a personal one. 

If you jump outside of cichlids in the hobby fish like swordtails and platies are all the result of vigorous crossing of species by aquarists over the years. X. Montezumae, X. Helleri, X Variatus etc. etc. have all been crossed to produce one of the world's most desirable and traded fish. This has done nothing to diminish the pure lines in the wild. Unless your intended purpose for keeping fish is as a conservation effort -- and I'd say in 99.9% of situations that is not the case -- the only reason you're keeping the fish is to enjoy them and if you enjoy a hybrid more than a pure fish why not? How often are we really keeping endangered species who's survival as a species depends on us raising them in the aquarium? As it is, none of the fish we keep can ever be released into the wild anyways. If you have an especially rare and endangered fish and you're breeding it, chances are it fetches a high price and you won't mess with the gene pool. If it's something like for example my Zebra Obliquidens which are extinct in the wild but very common in the hobby even crossing them wont really hurt the survival of the species as the fish is already everywhere. 

What's more, how does anyone know the fish they started with was not a hybrid to begin with? As was mentioned many hybrids look like a pure species and it can be hard to say you even started with something clean for sure unless it is wild caught or you cut it open in a lab!


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## offalmangler

i love my pair of blood parrots, colorful "not painted" and downright goofy in the tank.

But i would never sell them as anything but a hybrid, no need to muddy up more waters.


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## Aquatic Designs

Hybrid should have no place in fishkeeping. With all that mother nature has provided us why do we need to tinker with it. 

BTW Cory. A parrot is Heros x Amphilophus cross. Commonly known as a Severum x Midas or Red devil. Not a convict. And no Midas and Red devil is not the same species.


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## cichlidsnorth

I dont mind the odd hybrid fry, they are great food for my haps and frontosa's LOL
What I think is almost worse than hybreds is just plain old poorly bred fry. U know what Im talking about, people who think they are breeders yet let poorly bred fry out of there tanks. People who choose to breed fish for sale need to control there quality, not all fry are equal. I have some fry that are less than conformationaly correct I can not help that it happens even from the best of breeders, but what I can do is make sure they do not get out of my fish room. The ones that are not up to my standards, U guest it Front food!


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## clubsoda

Hybrids can produce a very nice looking fish, like flowerhorn. btw, is short body blue ram a hybrid? I think they call it balloon german blue ram ....


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## bae

clubsoda said:


> Hybrids can produce a very nice looking fish, like flowerhorn. btw, is short body blue ram a hybrid? I think they call it balloon german blue ram ....


These 'balloon' forms are fish with an inherited spinal deformity that compresses the internal organs so they balloon outwards. This often causes them digestive and other problems, and I suspect it's a painful and miserable life for them.


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## shaguars7

well i am actually sad to see how many people are fine with hybrids or are pro hybrid. I think that they should be banished from the hobby and all that keep them currently should get rid of them as humanely as possible. I cant understand for the life of me why people support the thought and creation of hybrids...people like that and attitudes like that will eventually ruin the hobby that i so enjoy. I cant imagine that with people consitantly muddying up gene pools and constantly wanting the best and the next cool new fish will stop. With that in mind i also cant believe governments will continue to let fish be caught and imported or exported if that is what is done to them. I understand that there can be natural hybridizations and if those are not sold i cant do much about them. I know personally i do not keep fry from any fish that spawn in communtity tanks and only keep fry from fish that were put in a breeding tank with only there specific species...that ensures that i know exactly what i am getting. I hope i do ruffle some feathers with this post because i think hybids should be stopped from the hobby and once again am disturbed on how many people support them..
Line breeding is a little different but is still a little troubling to me.

all of this was imo. do what you want with your hobby, but know when you buy hybrids it is only putting wheels in motion to make more.


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## Cory

I was talking about Jelly Bean parrots not blood parrots which are a convict and blood parrot cross. I am also aware of the difference between the labiatus and citrinellus complexes and can visually distinguish the morphological differences in the fish better than most people I've come across. Just to set the record straight .



Aquatic Designs said:


> Hybrid should have no place in fishkeeping. With all that mother nature has provided us why do we need to tinker with it.
> 
> BTW Cory. A parrot is Heros x Amphilophus cross. Commonly known as a Severum x Midas or Red devil. Not a convict. And no Midas and Red devil is not the same species.


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## Aquatic Designs

The jellybean parrot and the blood parrot are the same fish. They are just dyed. There is a convict jellybean but those are different. I should have elaborated more on that. They are variation of pretty well the same hybrid complex but actually are sold by the farms as different fish. The convict jellybean is a much smaller fish as i'm aware. I don't know the exact way they get these as I always thought hybrids were sterile or very weak gened they could not produce viable offspring. And really could care less, but was told something like blood parrots crossed with convicts produce convict parrots which are then dyed jellybean colors. If you know how they get them maybe others would like to know. 

And I only made the point about the red devil/midass was because a lot of people say they are the same. Which they clearly are not. Which actually I have not seen a good specimen of either in years. Hence the reason many think they are the same maybe?


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## Cory

I actually have the Jellybean parrots which are the convict/bp cross and have distributed some throughout the GTA as has the person I originally got them from. They stay small and have a light pink colouration identical to that of a pink convict which makes them ideal for dying. They don't get much bigger than golfballs and have less deformities than their bp parents. Both males and females are fertile in JB parrots unlike the original bps. There are also blood parrots which are dyed and then sold as jellybean parrots which makes it more confusing. Because the fish are hybrids though and have no specific taxonomic assignment it's hard to imagine there'd be much agreement on the common name. I have only ever seen the convict x parrot called a jellybean parrot but perhaps elsewhere they call them convict jellybeans I don't know. AFAIK Jellybean parrot is the correct common name for a dyed blood parrot, a convict/parrot cross and dyed convict/parrot crosses none of which are technically established species.

As for the reason you haven't seen a good specimen of midas or red devil, the problem is that most people cannot tell the difference and have bred the two together interchangeably over the years. A lot of people who like big nasties could really care less about genetic purity as long as they fish attacks the glass and eats feeder fish. When the two breed and produce fry they are sold as one or the other or often you will see midas/red devil (uhh???) So in the end, unless your original stock is WC you're probably getting a mutt that doesn't have the pronounced lips and elongated body a red devil should nor do you get the regal looking bruiser a midas should be. Most people also don't care though so if you're after nice specimens you'll have to go further afield.


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## Darkside

I don't keep any hybrids myself, but as I don't have a problem with them in the hobby as long as they're clearly labeled and not distributed under false pretenses.


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## clubsoda

bae said:


> These 'balloon' forms are fish with an inherited spinal deformity that compresses the internal organs so they balloon outwards. This often causes them digestive and other problems, and* I suspect it's a painful and miserable life for them*.


Man, I hope not, I hope they're just dwarf kinda fish.


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## Aquatic Designs

No. Sorry to say balloon forms are a result in spinalbifita. And so are any of those short body type.


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## Darkside

Aquatic Designs said:


> No. Sorry to say balloon forms are a result in spinalbifita. And so are any of those short body type.


I highly doubt that balloon forms are a result of spina bifida as there is no known mode of inheritance for that condition. It must be a different mutation or a result of the environment. If the "balloon" rams have spina bifida they will always breed true in a healthy environment.


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## Aquatic Designs

In any case it's a spinal malformity.


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## AquariAM

* In any case it's a spinal malformity.* +1. Balloon anything is pointless perversion of the form of a perfectly good fish.


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## blackninja

I would discourage the average hobbyist from entertaining hybrids. It is a lot easier to deal with what is familiar than to venture into uncharted waters. We are all encouraged to keep species tanks to avoid contamination of pure stock because most cichlids will hybridize in captivity but very rarely do so in the wild, call it natural selection if you must.
It is beyond the scope of most hobbyist to demonstrate/aquire the means, patience and expertise to line breed for selective traits and to go further in attempting cross breeding would be a quantum leap.
We see hybrids marketed very successfully and profitably but they are created after years of study and by very experience fish farms for the sole purpose of commerce. Countries that only net and sell their pure stock are suffering from exploitation because they get pennies for their effort and the global demand is further diminishing their stock and threatening their future livelihood. Hybrid producing countries are reaping the benefits of higher priced fish produced in their labs and fish farms and smart marketing with the added aid of technology. 
I don't know who the winners are but I do not believe in taking fish out of their natural habitat where they are thriving and forcing them to live/breed in our tiny tanks and see it as some higher purpose than those who create man made fish(in labs) more suited for our tanks with less of a burden on depleting fish stock from countries less equipped to deal with this crisis.


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## dl88dl

Hey ninja, the king of hybrids. 
It's about time you post here.


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## AquariAM

blackninja said:


> I would discourage the average hobbyist from entertaining hybrids. It is a lot easier to deal with what is familiar than to venture into uncharted waters. We are all encouraged to keep species tanks to avoid contamination of pure stock because most cichlids will hybridize in captivity but very rarely do so in the wild, call it natural selection if you must.
> It is beyond the scope of most hobbyist to demonstrate/aquire the means, patience and expertise to line breed for selective traits and to go further in attempting cross breeding would be a quantum leap.
> We see hybrids marketed very successfully and profitably but they are created after years of study and by very experience fish farms for the sole purpose of commerce. Countries that only net and sell their pure stock are suffering from exploitation because they get pennies for their effort and the global demand is further diminishing their stock and threatening their future livelihood. Hybrid producing countries are reaping the benefits of higher priced fish produced in their labs and fish farms and smart marketing with the added aid of technology.
> I don't know who the winners are but I do not believe in taking fish out of their natural habitat where they are thriving and forcing them to live/breed in our tiny tanks and see it as some higher purpose than those who create man made fish(in labs) more suited for our tanks with less of a burden on depleting fish stock from countries less equipped to deal with this crisis.


I think we need to draw a line between 'good' hybrids and bad hybrids.

Nobody's going to say Flowerhorns are bad. The fish are happy, very robust, do great in tanks, are not deformed, and live generally good lives.

Bad hybrids are things like blood parrots IMO, who are poor swimmers, often have mis-shapen outer jaws, and are less able to live a good life than the fish they are hybridized from.
Also african cichlid hybrids which are hard to spot are bad.


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## TBemba

Everyone loves hybrids in todays Society!

They have hybrids vehicles 

Most popular are all the hybrids dogs. Today people will pay large $$$ for a Cocka(fill in a breed name) or a (fill in the Breed Name (poo).

When I was a kid we called the mutts and you could pick one up from a shelter or a farmer for cheap.
Today no one wants a Pure Breed dog.


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## AquariAM

TBemba said:


> Everyone loves hybrids in todays Society!
> 
> They have hybrids vehicles


Hybrid cars and hybrid dogs are not the same thing as hybrid fish.
Hybrid cars say hybrid. That's easy to spot. Not going to breed with your gasoline car and produce a hybrid that can't be spotted. Mutts are easy to spot (I agree the cockapoo etc thing is ridiculous).

A german sheppard/collie does not look like a purebred of either dog. A yellow labido/metriaclima barlowi is virtually indistinguishable from a pure yellow labido. That's the problem. And nobody's out there selling
non-pure dogs as pure, except in very rare circumstances, because it's very easy to spot, whereas if you just pick up a bag of 1" yellow labido youngin's, you can't tell what they are yet.


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## blackninja

AquariAM said:


> I think we need to draw a line between 'good' hybrids and bad hybrids.
> 
> Nobody's going to say Flowerhorns are bad. The fish are happy, very robust, do great in tanks, are not deformed, and live generally good lives.
> 
> Bad hybrids are things like blood parrots IMO, who are poor swimmers, often have mis-shapen outer jaws, and are less able to live a good life than the fish they are hybridized from.
> Also african cichlid hybrids which are hard to spot are bad.


Most importers of fish and those who keep blood parrots will tell you they are extremely robust and durable and will survive some of the most adverse conditions. Their appearance are deceptive because they defend themselves very well and are surprisingly very adept at swimming so never mind the funny mouth or curved back. They sell very well and are low maintenance.


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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> Hey ninja, the king of hybrids.
> It's about time you post here.


Thanks Dave...I see a lot of my support team moving to GTA. and that is a good thing.


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## dl88dl

blackninja said:


> Most importers of fish and those who keep blood parrots will tell you they are extremely robust and durable and will survive some of the most adverse conditions. Their appearance are deceptive because they defend themselves very well and are surprisingly very adept at swimming so never mind the funny mouth or curved back. They sell very well and are low maintenance.


You are correct about the BP being robust and durable and defend themselves very well. I have a group in my 75gal community tank and they are the one who will get to the food first and also eat the most. Even a very aggressive and very large male flowerhorns have a soft spot for a female BP.
Btw, most people either hate them or love them


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## blackninja

When people do not follow through with their criticism you start seeing hybrids created from hybrids.


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## Cory

Im only asking cuz you put a pic of it in the thread vince, but I need to know since I have a few from you. Is there some kind of hybridization in your paratilapia polleni? I got them from you over a year ago under the assumption they were pure bred. I dont know what could possibly have been crossed with them but figured Id ask since a pic of one made it here. It's not a huge deal, I just wouldn't want to breed them with the pure stock I imported if they themselves are not pure.


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## blackninja

Cory said:


> Im only asking cuz you put a pic of it in the thread vince, but I need to know since I have a few from you. Is there some kind of hybridization in your paratilapia polleni? I got them from you over a year ago under the assumption they were pure bred. I dont know what could possibly have been crossed with them but figured Id ask since a pic of one made it here. It's not a huge deal, I just wouldn't want to breed them with the pure stock I imported if they themselves are not pure.


The ones you got from me were pure stock. I have attached the two I bred to show the difference.
First batch I produced from pic below.










Second Male I produced several batches from:










Mr Ugly is a picture from a Florida team interested in hybrids.


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## AquariAM

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/goaqua123/IMG_2132.jpg

Is that a red texas/FH? Nice fish!


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## blackninja

AquariAM said:


> http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/goaqua123/IMG_2132.jpg
> 
> Is that a red texas/FH? Nice fish!


Thanks, it was posted on flowerhorncraze.com and was seen as the best looking SRT produced outside of the Asian belt. Created by Ninja Productions. LoL.


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## AquariAM

blackninja said:


> Thanks, it was posted on flowerhorncraze.com and was seen as the best looking SRT produced outside of the Asian belt. Created by Ninja Productions. LoL.


I will give you one million dollars for one night with your red friend there.


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## blackninja

AquariAM said:


> I will give you one million dollars for one night with your red friend there.


She has that effect on most people. But she can be picky so post a picture of you with that cheque. LoL. In the meantime I am putting her on hold.


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## AquariAM

blackninja said:


> She has that effect on most people. But she can be picky so post a picture of you with that cheque. LoL. In the meantime I am putting her on hold.


Are you trying to say I'm not good enough for your super red texas?


Tell her I'm about 30cm, bright red, long, luxurious fin extensions, I have a great territory by a log and some large granite boulders and this pleco I know keeps the place clean for me.


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> Are you trying to say I'm not good enough for your super red texas?
> 
> 
> Tell her I'm about 30cm, bright red, long, luxurious fin extensions, I have a great territory by a log and some large granite boulders and this pleco I know keeps the place clean for me.


LOL do you have a huge kok, the SRT only like them BIG


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## AquariAM

...... Seriously?


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> ...... Seriously?


This is what I meant by huge kok -

http://club.fishmonsterclub.com/redirect.php?tid=136&goto=lastpost


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## AquariAM

goootcha


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## dl88dl

AquariAM said:


> goootcha


What were you thinking Get your mind out of the gutter LOL


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## blackninja

AquariAM said:


> ...... Seriously?


I sensed some hesitation in your response. I played Dave's video in front of her (SRT). Boy!! Did she slip out of those covers ever so fast.


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## Darkside

Cory said:


> Im only asking cuz you put a pic of it in the thread vince, but I need to know since I have a few from you. Is there some kind of hybridization in your paratilapia polleni? I got them from you over a year ago under the assumption they were pure bred. I dont know what could possibly have been crossed with them but figured Id ask since a pic of one made it here. It's not a huge deal, I just wouldn't want to breed them with the pure stock I imported if they themselves are not pure.


There is no way to tell at this point. There are very few if any reliable sources of this fish in today's market.


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## blackninja

Cory, I don't know if you had followed the discussion on PN about my fish and its authenticity. It have been cleared and even given a name Paratilapia Affn. Polleni by none other than the Malagasy conservationist Olaf and another who resides in the US(Denver) both distinguished members of the Malagsy forum including our very on Oliver Lucanus. It is easy to cast doubt with an opinion but hard to get respectable people to vouch for it authenticity which I have from the said people. I will forward you the emails as proof..I am on a project to breed another endangered fish from the Malagasy waters "pinstripe dambas" The proof is always in the eating. LoL


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## bae

blackninja said:


> Cory, I don't know if you had followed the discussion on PN about my fish and its authenticity. It have been cleared and even given a name Paratilapia Affn. Polleni by none other than the Malagasy conservationist Olaf and another who resides in the US(Denver) both distinguished members of the Malagsy forum including our very on Oliver Lucanus. It is easy to cast doubt with an opinion but hard to get respectable people to vouch for it authenticity which I have from the said people. I will forward you the emails as proof..I am on a project to breed another endangered fish from the Malagasy waters "pinstripe dambas" The proof is always in the eating. LoL


Paratilapia sp. aff. polleni would mean that the namer believes that the fish is not a P.polleni, but of another, unnamed species related to it. Paratilapia cf. polleni would mean that the namer thinks it's a P.polleni of some kind, but isn't sure.

Sometimes it isn't possible to precisely identify a fish without dissecting it. Sometimes there are a lot of closely related undescribed species or subspecies and it's very difficult to determine which a single fish belongs to, or indeed, which populations belong to the named spp and which don't.

So the most we know from the above is that your fish is either a P.polleni or of some related but possibly undescribed spp. I don't know Malagasy cichlids much, but IIRC, there are a number of forms or populations of P.polleni, e.g. big spot and small spot, and no one knows what their real status is. In this sort of situation, it's best to breed only within a form or population, because at some future time it may be described as a separate speceis or subspecies.


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## blackninja

bae said:


> Paratilapia sp. aff. polleni would mean that the namer believes that the fish is not a P.polleni, but of another, unnamed species related to it. Paratilapia cf. polleni would mean that the namer thinks it's a P.polleni of some kind, but isn't sure.
> 
> Sometimes it isn't possible to precisely identify a fish without dissecting it. Sometimes there are a lot of closely related undescribed species or subspecies and it's very difficult to determine which a single fish belongs to, or indeed, which populations belong to the named spp and which don't.
> 
> So the most we know from the above is that your fish is either a P.polleni or of some related but possibly undescribed spp. I don't know Malagasy cichlids much, but IIRC, there are a number of forms or populations of P.polleni, e.g. big spot and small spot, and no one knows what their real status is. In this sort of situation, it's best to breed only within a form or population, because at some future time it may be described as a separate speceis or subspecies.


Thank you bae. That is a fair and reasonable position. I went through great lengths to establish origin and authenticity of the fish after discovering they were an endangered species and better still I was successfully breeding them in my first year in the hobby. Even the conservationist Olaf and Alex Saunders who worked closely with Patrick DeRham and Paul Loiselle were very encouraging and liked what they saw. They (ninjas) have done well for me and I in turn would like to see them flourish in every home. Call it a mission.


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## dl88dl

blackninja said:


> Thank you bae. That is a fair and reasonable position. I went through great lengths to establish origin and authenticity of the fish after discovering they were an endangered species and better still I was successfully breeding them in my first year in the hobby. Even the conservationist Olaf and Alex Saunders who worked closely with Patrick DeRham and Paul Loiselle were very encouraging and liked what they saw. They (ninjas) have done well for me and I in turn would like to see them flourish in every home. Call it a mission.


Hey Vince, I can help out with your mission...sent some ninjas my way


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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> Hey Vince, I can help out with your mission...sent some ninjas my way


Thank you Dave...I have so many participation in my vision of seeing those ninjas flourishing in every home I feel I have the momentum to make a difference. The ninjas are free and I appreciate you volunteering to share the cost incurred by me to breed, feed, research and establish origin and authenticity of the fish after discovering they were an endangered species. Your contribution will certain help my mission and more so the endangered fish of Madagascar. How many?


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## dl88dl

blackninja said:


> Thank you Dave...I have so many participation in my vision of seeing those ninjas flourishing in every home I feel I have the momentum to make a difference. The ninjas are free and I appreciate you volunteering to share the cost incurred by me to breed, feed, research and establish origin and authenticity of the fish after discovering they were an endangered species. Your contribution will certain help my mission and more so the endangered fish of Madagascar. How many?


Thanks Vince...I will sent you a PM


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## AquariAM

dl88dl said:


> Thanks Vince...I will sent you a PM


So it's a paratilapia? How big do they get...?


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## blackninja

AquariAM said:


> So it's a paratilapia? How big do they get...?


I have a 10" male which is about the size you will find they max out at. I posted the pic earlier. Check it out.


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## Cory

They get big and beautiful. I have 5 right now, my fiance named them all:
The Boss, Torpedo, Mr. Lonely, Wife of Boss and Wife of Torpedo. You may have guessed why Mr. Lonely has his name . Have them all in a 90 gal with a breeding pair of jellybean parrots that gives them live food every 18 days. They have more personality than oscars and are truly a joy to own. I am trying to get another 90 gal for one of the pairs cuz they are rapidly outsizing their tank.


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## blackninja

Cory said:


> They get big and beautiful. I have 5 right now, my fiance named them all:
> The Boss, Torpedo, Mr. Lonely, Wife of Boss and Wife of Torpedo. You may have guessed why Mr. Lonely has his name . Have them all in a 90 gal with a breeding pair of jellybean parrots that gives them live food every 18 days. They have more personality than oscars and are truly a joy to own. I am trying to get another 90 gal for one of the pairs cuz they are rapidly outsizing their tank.


You have done extremely well Cory. What I am noticing is if you keep them separated like one to a tank they tend to get very aggressive when you mix them with other fish later. Otherwise they are absolutely benign.


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## BillD

AquariAM said:


> I think we need to draw a line between 'good' hybrids and bad hybrids.
> 
> Nobody's going to say Flowerhorns are bad. The fish are happy, very robust, do great in tanks, are not deformed, and live generally good lives.
> 
> Bad hybrids are things like blood parrots IMO, who are poor swimmers, often have mis-shapen outer jaws, and are less able to live a good life than the fish they are hybridized from.
> Also african cichlid hybrids which are hard to spot are bad.


I think flowerhorns are bad hybrids and my name isn't Nobody.. They are grotesque looking, very robust, and do well in the wild. Since the bottom fell out of the flowerhorn market, Singapore breeders dumped their stock and they have established themselves and have all but wiped out the local native species. This is according to Oliver Lucannus, who went to collect chocolate gouramis, from a spot they collected regularly, only to find only breeding pairs of flowerhorns and nothing else. He claimed the situation was the same throughout the country.


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## blackninja

BillD said:


> I think flowerhorns are bad hybrids and my name isn't Nobody.. They are grotesque looking, very robust, and do well in the wild. Since the bottom fell out of the flowerhorn market, Singapore breeders dumped their stock and they have established themselves and have all but wiped out the local native species. This is according to Oliver Lucannus, who went to collect chocolate gouramis, from a spot they collected regularly, only to find only breeding pairs of flowerhorns and nothing else. He claimed the situation was the same throughout the country.


It always raises the credibility of the post when we have people like BilllD coming forward and educating us on the issues related to flowerhorns as a hybrid and quoting even more distinguished people like Oliver Lucannus. But why is it that the authorities in Singapore have not banned the breeding of Flowerhorns or in the hobby or why they are successfully the 3rd largest producer/exporter of Ornamental fish. We all know Singapore is famous for their success as a country with efficient law enforcements and a public with high civic awareness. Would they have allowed this disaster to happen let alone continue. Why is it that after the disaster in Singapore caused by Flowerhorns are countries like Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam to name a few continuing to breed and market them. Any informed person should take the effort to respect people like BillD and Oliver Lucannus for what they know and less for their pandering to an unsuspecting audience. How many chocolate gouramis do you want BillD from Singapore? Two of our major ornamental fish importers here in Toronto get their fish from Singapore.

Some pics for you BillD which you can pass on to Oliver Lucannus from someone who actually researched, keeps and breeds flowerhorns kept in a community tank shared with Dolphins, Rainbows, Gouramis, africans and what else shows up. The largest fish is the flowerhorn.


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## dl88dl

The flowerhorn must be acting like a police to keep peace in that tank.


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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> The flowerhorn must be acting like a police to keep peace in that tank.


I never saw it that way but you could be right Dave because I have a few blood parrots in the tank quite possibly being protected by a couple of flowerhorns from a group of butterkofis (zebra tilapia) known to be more aggressive than FH. Never lost any blood parrots inspite of their poor swimming ability. Another misconception flowerhorns are too aggressive and cannot be kept together in a tank..Thanks.


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## dl88dl

Those fishy in that tank are growing big since the last time I saw them...you will need a bigger tank soon


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## blackninja

dl88dl said:


> Those fishy in that tank are growing big since the last time I saw them...you will need a bigger tank soon


Here is another view of those poor swimming blood parrots surrounded by butterkofis before I introduced the flowerhorns to police the tank to borrow a phrase from you. LoL.


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## wildexpressions

I think the entire hybrid thing is not such a big deal. They happen. They should be labeled as such when sold and I know I certainly do my best to label them.

I have a tank in the shop with maybe 40 Yellow Tail Acie's and I labeled them as a False Acie becasue their heads looked a little off to me. Yesterday the guy I bought them from was in and assured me they were a pure strain and gave me a bit of history on whose hands they had passed though. Last night I relabeled them as Yellow Tails.

Bottomline is I was pretty certain they were a good strain when I got them but once I had some doubt from comparing them to the White tail's I already owned and some pictures online I decided to error on the side of caution.

I'm not bragging or trying to claim I'm some kinda superior retailer but the fact is most shops are not going to do that. The tank labeled False Acie priced them at $5 each, the tank now relabeled as Yellow Tail's is priced at $14 each. That is quite a difference value wise and when it comes to ethics they generally don't mean much to most when there is a profit to be made.

I have the same problem with many of the so called wild caught fish. A breeder/wholesaler has bins filled with fish that are worth say $10 each but by simply writing "wild caught" in front of the name they are now worth $15 to $30 each. Human nature being what it is I can assure you that a lot of those "wild caught" were at best bred in tanks in the fishes native country.

More to the point though is that the average aquarium hobbyist could absolutely care less. The people that show up on these boards to talk are not the average and in fact represent a tiny portion of the hobby. The average hobbyist opinion is the only one that really counts in the big scheme of things. I see the average hobbyist daily and they call their fish "that pretty blue one with the spot" and the "nice yellow one".


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## blackninja

The hobby is rapidly changing and a lot of the old established views are quickly becoming irrelevant. For example the American Cichlid Association was the source for almost everything related to the hobby of fish keeping. They even tried to enforce the banning of hybrids in competitions. Today they are mostly irrelevant because the internet has changed and broadened the scope of the hobby and the ACA is no longer recognized as an authority and largely ignored. Hybrids are now very much part of competitions in the US. 
I was surprised to see at the last DRAS auction hybrids both being sold and as exhibits for the fish competition. We are catching up with the times too.


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## KhuliLoachFan

I would not sell a hybrid to anybody without telling them it was a hybrid. Nor would I sell any fish from a tank where hybridization could have occurred without telling people. Neither do I worry about it one bit if it happens.

I read a part in a book written by David E. Boruschowitz, who is acknowledged as one of the big kahunas in all of the fishkeeping world, as the editor of TFH for over half a century. He discourages new keepers of fish from keeping platies and trying to "breed" them (as if you could STOP them from breeding!) because you can "never tell who breeds with who" and with all that storage of sperm in the female (some of the females are 'pregnant' with a particular male's sperm while still not sexually mature, they can hold onto it). This is an example of the hobbyist sweating-the-small-stuff when they shouldn't. Just see what comes out, and enjoy it. Stick six colors and whatever variatus of platies you feel like mixing around with each other, in one tank, and enjoy the combinations. After all, all the platies and swords in the trade right now are hybrids already.

It seems everybody gets their knickers in a twist over a frickin' HOBBY people. Relax, if genetic purity is so important to you, then pay a huge premium for your ostensibly-WC and as-far-as-you-know-its-an-F1 uberfish. But the rest of us are just enjoying our hobbies. And nobody is dropping of hybrids back into Lake Victoria or Lake Tanganyika, I hope. I really don't connect with hobbyists who care a lot about purity, and not so much about the fact that this is a hobby, in which we blow off some steam, relax, enjoy ourselves, and also appreciate the beauty of nature. While I prefer to buy a pure strain myself, I don't mind if the strains cross in my tank. I'm not breeding, and not into selling. I just like fish.

I am against intentional hormonally-helped hybridizations like the parrot fish. The thing is ugly, deformed, and has a hard time living its life. But there's nothing at all unhealthy about a mbuna hybrid. Euthanize yours if you like, and I'll call it your choice. But if my labs, and p. socoloffi get it on with each other, I'm just going to enjoy it. 



W


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## blackninja

To some it is more than just a HOBBY..it is a culmination of their years spent reading books endorsed by ichthyologist such as Ad Konings and imitating their efforts breeding wild caught fish in aquaria to some kind of climatic conclusion while simultaneously advocating such dedication should not be compromised.
But there is little to be gained by imitating nature and wild caught fish soon lose their vigor with captive breeding. Hybrids are the next frontier and only the brave with vision can be challenged to make such a journey. To take the current when it serves.


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## KhuliLoachFan

All I ask of those so inclined, to overweening scrupulosity in their holy pursuit of matters of knowledge ichthyological, is that they avoid treading on the toes of the rest of us. In short, that they take some trouble to be nice about it, and not assume everybody else's values, needs, requirements and ideals match theirs.



W


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## blackninja

We will be hard pressed to see such constraints demonstrated because their urge to liberate this burden of indoctrination is overwhelmingly masked with good intentions. 
We provide them a platform to speak by recognizing their peers who were pioneers for attempting to imitate nature. But to summarize, there is even less to be learn't for imitators who have at best imitated others who imitated what nature provided in abundance. 
Since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery we can appreciate their sincerity which is a human trait that beguiles even the most sincere among us.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Well said, ninja. 

W


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## blackninja

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Well said, ninja.
> 
> W


Thanks bud, we all have our moments and sometimes they define us. Check the bulge on this one.


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