# Supplement?



## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Hi,

I apologize if this has already been covered in the forum, but please indulge me.
I'm new to planted tanks, and have just dirted my second one a few days ago. I looked online at supplementation regimens, and got a headache from the variations out there...PPS, EI, store bought, mix your own, high wattage for less time, less wattage for more time...arrgh! Hence, as always, I turn to the GTAA community for advice.

I would love if you could share the following...
How big is your tank, what plants, what substrate, what do you supplement, how often, and where do you obtain it from. Not looking to debate the pros and cons of different regimens, just what you use.

Also, if there's any advice you'd like to share with a newb to planted tanks. What worked / didn't work for you. What to look for. What to avoid.


When I first started fishkeeping, this forum gave me the confidence to proceed beyond just a betta tank, so once again, I'm shamelessly turning to you all for your priceless advice and experience, as i venture into the planted realm.

Al.

PS: Mods, if this belongs in the beginner section, please move it for me. I posted here as I figure it is specifically to do with plants, even though its advice for a beginner. Thank you kindly.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

29 gallon dirted tank. 

I have very easy plants amazon sword, vals, polysperma hygro ceylon, dwarf hair grass, crypt wendtii brown, tiget lotus, java moss and christmass moss.

I have 2 X 23Watt CFL light for 4-6hrs per day and DIY CO2

I don't dose anything but I might need to dose iron down the road.


If you have dirted then you don't need worry about any type of dosing for a while. Few people mentioned that their soil lost the nutrients after six months while others say it can last up to two years. I used Miracle gro potting mix so I am thinking it should have ton of nutrients. I see redish brown leaves on my polysperman hygro ceylon which tells me that I medium high/light as the leaves from this plant turn redish brown at high light.

I think lighting is very important but you don't necessarily need T5s for high light. Some of the T5 fixtures aren't that great compare to CFL. There is a great thread at planted tank that compares PAR values from different fixtures. If you are buying T5HO fixtures then you need to research their reflectors because they are the ones that make or break the fixture. Best fixture will have individual reflector for each bulb where you should see the reflection T5 light tube. On the other hand, the orientation of CFL makes a huge difference, horizontally mounted CFL provides less light compare to vertically mounted CFL. I've personally spent quite sometime on this light issue but came back to CFL because it provides best return for the value.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

i am a dirter and run no co2 but i dose excel 1ml for 3-4 days then stop for a few days and start again. i dirted a 48 gallon long and you do not need to add nutrients if you have enough poopload. the substrate can last 5 years if you feed enough and have bioloads that can replenish the nutrients in the soil. my tank is lightly stocked and i prob am looking at only 6months - 2 years like gat suggested of nutrient depletion but many have dirted tanks that last 5 years before needing to dose fertz on TPT forum. But I assume nutrient depletion also depends on the type of plants and lighting as higher lighting would probably deplete it faster. Look up diana waldstad method and read up on the pdf its a good read and explains everything in much detail.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Currently, one tank on Eco Complete. One on smaller, finer gravels. Two small ones on Moonsand. Some of the best looking plants are growing in the moonsand.

No C02 yet, working on it, but I started using Flourish Excel and Seachem's all around liquid ferts, the name escapes me. I did not dose nearly as often as I should have, but when I do, the boost it gives the plants is quite remarkable.

I now have a pile of root tabs to put in the next time I do big clean up, for the crypts, swords and other such deep rooted things, which do seem to need root feeding and use it better than column feeding. I've now used Tetra Pond liquid fert too, which has more iron in it and it has seemed to make a difference to a few plants, good differences.

I recently bought trace mix from Darkblade and as soon as my current supplies of Seachem and whatnot liquid basics run out, I will be buying all dry and mixing up my own. It's cheaper and I don't think the results are any different from using the much more costly proprietary formulations. 

Main thing is to feed what they need and don't feed extra, as it won't help matters and may spoil water parameters.

I forgot to mention what I use for light.. sorry. 23W spiral Daylight bulbs, 3 over a 29G..6500 K. Two of them over a five.. lower wattage over smaller tanks. Grows most things except the very demanding ones and some red ones. I use Excel for now, 'til I get the C02 going.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Thank you for your quick responses. I truly do appreciate each and every one of you helping me out.

@Fishfur: So instead of EI and PPS etc, you observe the symptoms and dose as per needs? For example, trace, when there's pinholes in the leaves etc?

@ Riddler: I went thru Walstead before attempting the first tank. I see dirters posting pics here with tanks in their second or third week having more success than my ragged looking tank after 2 months. Figured if I increase photo period and dose, maybe I'll get better results. Maybe I need to rescape, as my crypts are doing great (deep rooted, I presume), but everything else ain't (dwarf sage, vals, deformis and stuff i can't name) ain't doing too great. I have an inch of miracle gro, capped with about 2" of gravel. I'm thinking maybe the cap is too high, as my other tank (sand capped), is doing ok, with the same parameters. The vals and dwarf sag sprouted runners in the sand cap within the week, whereas the gravel capped tank has none in 2 months. 

@ GAT:
I read the same thing about horizontal vs vertical CFL. Thank you for confirming it for me, as I hadn't encountered anyone with "real life" experience in the difference. I have horizontal CFL and T5 right now on my tanks. I'm going to try vertical and see if it helps. 

Thank you all for sharing your experiences with me. You empower me. 

Al.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

what kind of T5 do you have? T5NO is same as T8 and even with T5HO brands like coralife have bad reflectors.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

yea 2 inch is too high the gravel and soil cap ratio is 1 to 1. what plants do you have? i have medium lighted plants and after two months they grow quite slow still. my dwarf sag and nan vals are propagating though. this style is meant for less maintenance, if you arent seeing die offs i dont think you need to worry. This is just my humble opinion though. do you also have co2 injection or do you use excel? if you dump in nutrients you will need a carbon source or you will have too much nutrients in the tank and may lead to algae growth


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

xriddler said:


> yea 2 inch is too high the gravel and soil cap ratio is 1 to 1.


I realize that now. I'll have to rescape and reduce the cap.



xriddler said:


> what plants do you have? i have medium lighted plants and after two months they grow quite slow still. my dwarf sag and nan vals are propagating though. this style is meant for less maintenance, if you arent seeing die offs i dont think you need to worry.


I have vals, dwarf sage, crypts. Rotala indica didn't grow in that tank. I moved it to my 10 gal (sand cap), and with diy co2 and more light, it isn't dying...hasn't sprouted more leaves, but isn't dying. I had a bunch of hygro in the tank as well, and it just sort of separated at the stem, but is blooming in the sand capped tank. My main tank (35 gal) has 2x 15W CFL 6500K, and a 24" T5ho for about 6 hours daily. The 10 gal has 2x 15W CFL 6500K for 8 hours along with a diy co2 at about one bubble per second.



xriddler said:


> This is just my humble opinion though.


...which i truly appreciate! 



xriddler said:


> do you also have co2 injection or do you use excel? if you dump in nutrients you will need a carbon source or you will have too much nutrients in the tank and may lead to algae growth


Yeah, I think I'll jus' rescape maybe this wknd. Skim off some gravel. Give the plants access to nutrients in the soil, and see what develops. I am wondering if i should siphon off the mulm first. It will get stirred up if i remove some of the gravel, and I don't know if that will cause problems?

Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Actually, thanks to life getting in the way, I simply don't dose often enough. But when I do, I sure notice the difference in the plants, it is surprising how quickly they show a response.. much faster than they show deficiencies. I only started last year, and while I have tons of experience growing terrestrial plants, the water garden I originally envisioned got side tracked a bit because I soon learned I wanted fish and shrimp too. Thus I spent more time looking after them than the plants. I also started with really, really low light, which did not grow much of anything. Once I changed to what I use now.. which I added to my original post above, things changed quite a bit.

I am trying to get onto a more regular schedule for dosing.. and once I have the C02 bottles running I will have to. Maybe a reminder on my computer calendar ? Between a sick mother, a sick cat, health issues of my own and a landlord who really, really wants me to move out, things get away from me now and then.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

excel can be hard on vals, especially if over dosed just to warn you.

I have some crypts and they seem to be very slow growing plants.

I can't wait to have the $300 plus needed to setup co2 the way I want, but could be a while.

I think one of the most important things is lighting, and dosing whatever for that lighting. When I started I did no tech using the lights that came with the aquarium kit, which sucked, but I had some plants that survived just fine. Now that I have good lighting and doing some DIY co2 and some ferts at times, I get amazing growth, that is when I have it all going right. Been having problems with my co2 lately, some leak or something and its just not working and haven't had the time or patience lately do deal with it.


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

mlevi what dimensions is your 35 gallon? up your photo period to 8-10 hrs because yours is a dirt tank i suggest having it on a timer split into sections. i have mine set at 9-10, 1-5 and 8-12. the hours in between supposedly allow for co2 to increase again when the lights are off.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

No question that lighting has an enormous effect on plants, whether it's for good or ill. I remember not long after I joined here,I had posted my plans to build a new hood for my tank and vastly upgrade my lighting.

I think it was Darkblade who was kind enough to point out that by so doing I could possibly make a lot of extra work for myself, if not trouble, because it is light that drives plant growth, and that I might not get what I was hoping for from the project. 

If I were to add a lot of light and do nothing else, that is, not add more nutrients and carbon to go with the higher light levels, I would not get what I wanted. I was still pretty new to modern tank keeping, and growing plants underwater was a whole new thing to me. 

I had no idea at the time just how complex it CAN become, to be able to grow some of these water plants and keep them healthy. I had never heard that water lacks C02 and that I'd have to add something for carbon, because all my experience was with terrestrial growing, which is so very different. 

I still plan to build a hood and upgrade the lights, but it will be different from my original idea. But even with the makeshift system I have now, if I did not feed at all, I would have a real mess on my hands. Shortly after I installed what I have now, I learned it was much brighter than I thought it would be. A few stem plants grew startlingly fast, but had such tiny leaves by the time they hit the top that they no longer much resembled the bottom of the stems. Just from an excess of light combined with inadequate nutrient and carbon intake. It's been a very interesting learning experience, to say the least.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

xriddler said:


> mlevi what dimensions is your 35 gallon? up your photo period to 8-10 hrs because yours is a dirt tank i suggest having it on a timer split into sections. i have mine set at 9-10, 1-5 and 8-12. the hours in between supposedly allow for co2 to increase again when the lights are off.


Its 36 x 12 x 19. 
I've split my photo period after reading your post. Never thought about that. Thx!
I'm also looking at removing some gravel to make it easier for the plants to access the soil layer.



Fishfur said:


> I had no idea at the time just how complex it CAN become, to be able to grow some of these water plants and keep them healthy. I had never heard that water lacks C02 and that I'd have to add something for carbon, because all my experience was with terrestrial growing, which is so very different.


Me neither. This was my first venture into the planted realm. All the plants in my tank were obtained through the goodwill of GTAA members. I'm learning so much as i go along. One thing I can say with utter conviction though, is, when I look at my tanks with plastic plants, in comparision to my planted tanks, the plastic looks like a 'caricature' of the real thing. Nothing comes close to the beauty of actual plants in a tank. That alone, makes it worth it.


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