# 30cm starfire cube dry start method



## alexxa

Light : 23W 6500K CFL
Substrate: netlea brown soil
Flora: HC, DHG

Is that enough HC? coz i didn't have much to start with


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## igor.kanshyn

Looks cool!

It's always to have more


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## cb1021

what are your livestock plans. will you cycle the tank??


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## coldmantis

that's going to take a while to completely spread I say 3-4 months if you can hold out that long without filling it, go easy on the water level, if you put too much and leave your lights on too long you might get some algae at the base of the glass.


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## alexxa

cb1021 said:


> what are your livestock plans. will you cycle the tank??


mostly cherry shrimps, maybe CRS


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> that's going to take a while to completely spread I say 3-4 months if you can hold out that long without filling it, go easy on the water level, if you put too much and leave your lights on too long you might get some algae at the base of the glass.


so is my water level OK?


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## coldmantis

looks good as long as you keep it under the lowest level of the substrate you shouldn't get any algae, when I did it I kept it at the same level as the substrate and I got a little algae after like 2 months.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> looks good as long as you keep it under the lowest level of the substrate you shouldn't get any algae, when I did it I kept it at the same level as the substrate and I got a little algae after like 2 months.


They dont look very healthy now, i am worried that they will die
there is some algae on the old leaves and leaves are small


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## coldmantis

did you buy it when it was grown submersed or emersed, I bought mines emersed so do dry start is nothing, but if you bought it submersed then it might die back a little so the emersed leafs can grow.


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## Beijing08

good start Alexxaaaaa.
watch out for Blue-green algae. 
Should fill in faster than you think if you blast the CO2 since there's no livestock.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> did you buy it when it was grown submersed or emersed, I bought mines emersed so do dry start is nothing, but if you bought it submersed then it might die back a little so the emersed leafs can grow.


yea is was submersed


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## alexxa

Beijing08 said:


> good start Alexxaaaaa.
> watch out for Blue-green algae.
> Should fill in faster than you think if you blast the CO2 since there's no livestock.


do you mean after filled in with water?


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## coldmantis

I think he means if you just fill it with water instead of doing dry start but pump lots of co2 in it, it will grow and spread faster. which is true because I tried it in different tanks and it grows way faster because hc cuba loves co2 more then light.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I think he means if you just fill it with water instead of doing dry start but pump lots of co2 in it, it will grow and spread faster. which is true because I tried it in different tanks and it grows way faster because hc cuba loves co2 more then light.


but the problem is i already let then grow emerse for a few days, then if i switch them back to submerse, i think i will kill them


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## alexxa

now i see some spiderweb-like stuff growing on the HC. are those furry stuff fungus?


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## coldmantis

that's bad, I never got that, I think you should just fill it with water and save what you can, when I bought mines emersed I grew it emersed in potting soil to so I can harvest more before I redo my scape, and when I did my scape I took the ones I grew emersed myself and just planted it submersed I didtn't have any melting or any problems what so ever, I just pump regular co2 I didn't over do it but I did however dose fertz on a daily basis, I have to also mention I only have 78w over 29 gallons so that's about 2.6wpg


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> that's bad, I never got that, I think you should just fill it with water and save what you can, when I bought mines emersed I grew it emersed in potting soil to so I can harvest more before I redo my scape, and when I did my scape I took the ones I grew emersed myself and just planted it submersed I didtn't have any melting or any problems what so ever, I just pump regular co2 I didn't over do it but I did however dose fertz on a daily basis, I have to also mention I only have 78w over 29 gallons so that's about 2.6wpg


the problem is i dont have a filter now and i am going to get one in the summer in hong kong


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## coldmantis

when my gf bought me the 30cm cube from ai, she also got me the hangonback canister filter they got there, I only wanted the cube but freeman convinced me to get the filter when he said jimmy come hear this filter no noise right? lol since this cube is in my bedroom I got the filter too it makes no noise and is a canister filter that hangs on the back of the cube, when I finally fill it with water maybe tomorrow I'm going to feed the co2 tube in the intake of the filter and see if it's good enough to diffuse all the bubbles, I don't think so though since the filter is small.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> when my gf bought me the 30cm cube from ai, she also got me the hangonback canister filter they got there, I only wanted the cube but freeman convinced me to get the filter when he said jimmy come hear this filter no noise right? lol since this cube is in my bedroom I got the filter too it makes no noise and is a canister filter that hangs on the back of the cube, when I finally fill it with water maybe tomorrow I'm going to feed the co2 tube in the intake of the filter and see if it's good enough to diffuse all the bubbles, I don't think so though since the filter is small.


that canister filter is a bit expensive and also its almost exam time so i won't have time to set it up if i fill it with water. Thats why i chose to fill up my tank in august


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## coldmantis

agreed that it's expensive, that's why I didn't buy it but my gf bought it for me lol


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## alexxa

did u fill up ur cube?


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## coldmantis

I thought you saw it when you came over earlier, it's not fill yet I don't feel like setting up a new tank, I have georgeous piece of driftwood with lots of branches that I need to tie pheonix moss and flame moss to first before I fill it, and I'm waiting for all the red plants I got recently to grow before I transfer them to this tank.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I thought you saw it when you came over earlier, it's not fill yet I don't feel like setting up a new tank, I have georgeous piece of driftwood with lots of branches that I need to tie pheonix moss and flame moss to first before I fill it, and I'm waiting for all the red plants I got recently to grow before I transfer them to this tank.


o i saw ur tank but didn't see if there is water in it or not


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## alexxa

i hv a question..
do you leave any space/gap at the top of ur 30cm cube?


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## coldmantis

I dont' understand the question space/gap for what? the light?


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I dont' understand the question space/gap for what? the light?


i mean the plastic wrap, do you seal the top completely or do you leave any space?


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## coldmantis

if you leave a space your plants will die.


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## alexxa

okay. i will seal it tight


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## alexxa

do i really need a regulator for a paintball setup?
and will this needle vavle work for paintball? 
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Needle-valve-Fin...ultDomain_0&hash=item3c9667b740#ht_4035wt_905


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## coldmantis

that's a good question, you have to find out how much psi that needle valve is if it's above 800-1000 then you should be ok, it's better to get something higher like 3000psi


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## igor.kanshyn

coldmantis said:


> if you leave a space your plants will die.


So, should it be no air exchange with the outside?


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## alexxa

wt is the average co2 bubble rate for this setup?


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## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> wt is the average co2 bubble rate for this setup?


can't say, you need a drop checker, and the bubble rate will depend on how you diffuse it and how much surface agitation you got. right now I'm doing 1bps which is way too much and I'm feeding into the intake of my hob canister filter. I think that 1 bubble per 2-3secs will do for my setup. you have to experiment with it when you get your co2 setup.


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## alexxa

anyone knows how to kill fungus?
fungus kills the leaves


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## alexxa

i just flooded the front part with water.
i will do this for 1day to see if the fungus will die or not.


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## alexxa

now i decide to leave a small space on the plastic wrap so that it dries out a little. Thats what Tom Barr suggests.


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## alexxa

does DHG grow faster in when it is submersed?
coz i don't see them grow right now


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## coldmantis

from my experience dhg grows fast under high light 3wpg+ submersed, if grown emersed it grows slow.


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## alexxa

fungus / mold keeps growing on soil and leaves


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## coldmantis

take a picture


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## alexxa

maybe tmr (wish not) coz i just took them all out.


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## cb1021

Mold will form in basically all moist and hot conditions. Whats the temperature in your tank, considering you have it in green-house setting right now with the top covered up.

Also regarding your HC growth, was the HC you planted originally planted in water? It takes time for plants to settle into new living conditions. Also you have very little HC, like speck portions. If you plant them in brunches, you will see a faster carpet. 

I don't understand the dry-start thing though. If you cover the tank, how do the plants have access to co2? High co2 and light intensity would be the purpose of dry-start, I had assumed....Have you achieved those two elements?


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## alexxa

cb1021 said:


> Mold will form in basically all moist and hot conditions. Whats the temperature in your tank, considering you have it in green-house setting right now with the top covered up.
> 
> Also regarding your HC growth, was the HC you planted originally planted in water? It takes time for plants to settle into new living conditions. Also you have very little HC, like speck portions. If you plant them in brunches, you will see a faster carpet.
> 
> I don't understand the dry-start thing though. If you cover the tank, how do the plants have access to co2? High co2 and light intensity would be the purpose of dry-start, I had assumed....Have you achieved those two elements?


here is an update.
i got some emerse HC from coldmatis








http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/249407_1932362761153_1604813169_1920597_8069135_n.jpg


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## alexxa

here are some photos of the fungus.
temp is around 25- 27degree celsius. so i leave a space at the top.


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## alexxa

i am not sure if this is true but it seems like the fungus is only growing on old leaves.


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## alexxa

I think the fungus just grows on old leaves.
Is it because old leaves cant adapt the new environment so they die?


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## alexxa

any method to kill the fungus?


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## coldmantis

I heard of people diluting excel, 15% excel 85% water put it in a spray bottle and spray it like a couple times a week and it went away.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I heard of people diluting excel, 15% excel 85% water put it in a spray bottle and spray it like a couple times a week and it went away.


15% thats quite alot


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## alexxa

i also have some very green leaves turning brown and dead for no reason
maybe i left a small space at the top? (but its really really small)


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## 03pilot

Alexxa, I suspect you got staghorn algae on those old leaves. I am not 100% sure. Its hard to see when its being emerged. If it were staghorn, I suggest remove those old leaves and spot treat other the affected area with Flourish Excel. Good luck!


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## alexxa

03pilot said:


> Alexxa, I suspect you got staghorn algae on those old leaves. I am not 100% sure. Its hard to see when its being emerged. If it were staghorn, I suggest remove those old leaves and spot treat other the affected area with Flourish Excel. Good luck!


i think those are just fungus because they are white furry stuff. 
Thx for your reply anyway


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## 03pilot

Fugus usually found on wood...??

Look at the first picture of Staghorn algae here:
http://www.otocinclus.com/articles/algae.html

I can see some resemblance....


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## alexxa

03pilot said:


> Fugus usually found on wood...??
> 
> Look at the first picture of Staghorn algae here:
> http://www.otocinclus.com/articles/algae.html
> 
> I can see some resemblance....


but can algae also grow emersed?
i see the fungus growing on dead leaves and the roots...


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## alexxa

just sprayed the plants with dilute solution of kh2po4. Hope this will help.


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## jimmyjam

just clipp off the leaves with the stuff on it, and let it grow. I have had similar stuff (check out hte 75 gallon tank) and once the Hc starts growing, it just recovered. If anything, add 10% excel to your spray bottle.


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## alexxa

i have a stem that was looking green yesterday, and today the whole stem turn brown. Whats happening
how can it go dead in just 12hrs? it used to grown very nicely and fast


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## cb1021

Maybe you burned it with ferts.


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## alexxa

cb1021 said:


> Maybe you burned it with ferts.


thats what i am thinking also. but i fertilized it a few days ago..


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## alexxa

decided to flood it today.
3bps 
do i need excel?


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## brapbrapboom

alexxa said:


> decided to flood it today.
> 3bps
> do i need excel?


Isnt excel carbon as well? Ur HC's are pearling


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## alexxa

brapbrapboom said:


> Isnt excel carbon as well? Ur HC's are pearling


they are not exactly pearling, coz i just add water to the tank, so there is air sticked on them


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## brapbrapboom

alexxa said:


> they are not exactly pearling, coz i just add water to the tank, so there is air sticked on them


:O good point! My apologies


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## alexxa

brapbrapboom said:


> :O good point! My apologies


yea its fine
just wondering if they need any excel.
coz they need lots of co2 to turn from emersed to submersed


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## brapbrapboom

alexxa said:


> yea its fine
> just wondering if they need any excel.
> coz they need lots of co2 to turn from emersed to submersed


I think you should be fine at 3bps and not dosing co2. Since there are no livestock you can probably make it 4bps. Im no expert in co2 but just a thought.


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## iBetta

this is a great thread, I'm learning so much as i just started a 2.5g dry-start method with HC cuba only as well . 

I'm kind of doing an experiment as i'm not putting any C02 for now but I'm using a premixed substrate I got from a fellow forum member (ADA II with excel, gravel etc). it's been 2 days and I'm already seeing some of them spreading O:. though light is quite high b/c i have a custom-made LED double strip . no fungus/algae so far...maybe you can try some flourish excel?


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> this is a great thread, I'm learning so much as i just started a 2.5g dry-start method with HC cuba only as well


nice. but for me, its too hot now. With the plastic wrap on the tank, its like a greenhouse inside and some of the hc start to melt. So i must flood the tank
it has been submersed for almost 2months but there isn't much grow


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## iBetta

what is the intensity of your light and how long do you keep them on per day? O:


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> what is the intensity of your light and how long do you keep them on per day? O:


23W 6500k CFL 
9hrs a day
but i think 8hrs is enough


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## iBetta

Hi alexxa, 

hmm well im no expert in terms of lighting (ill let the veterans 'enlighten' me XD) but I would say your best bet would be to add some ferts, excel etc.  it's working for me so far, but it HAS BEEN only 2-3 days lol.....

I'm sorry I can't be much of help lol, i'm also learning! 

ps. your design is so cool, simple and elegant *.*


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> Hi alexxa,
> 
> hmm well im no expert in terms of lighting (ill let the veterans 'enlighten' me XD) but I would say your best bet would be to add some ferts, excel etc.  it's working for me so far, but it HAS BEEN only 2-3 days lol.....
> 
> I'm sorry I can't be much of help lol, i'm also learning!
> 
> ps. your design is so cool, simple and elegant *.*


ok thank you


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## alexxa

just bought a bottle of excel


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## iBetta

lol me too! just got it today! XD


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## alexxa

omg i start to see thread algae. i saw nothing last night, but i see lots of them today


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## iBetta

really? i dont have any yet but my HC isnt growing so well....the excel should prevent algae growth though...how much do u fertilize it with? the first couple of days i was using excel, my HC was pearling , but not anymore......


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> really? i dont have any yet but my HC isnt growing so well....the excel should prevent algae growth though...how much do u fertilize it with? the first couple of days i was using excel, my HC was pearling , but not anymore......


coz i last night i forgot to add excel, maybe thats y...
i just did 40% wc and add 3.5ml of excel


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## alexxa

here is a photo








and my emersed hc is dying, i dunno if it is because not enough light or what.


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## alexxa

need help on thread algae...
more and more coming


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## iBetta

the ferts didn't do the job? I would first manually remove them, increase the frequency of WC, use RO water, and add more ferts maybe? also, you can try decreasing you lighting. Hope this helps . why not add 1-2 amanos?


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## alexxa

because the tank is cycled for only 1week.
im afraid that amano shrimp will die


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## alexxa

can i do 50% wc everyday?


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## iBetta

hmmm i'm scared that will be too much since you want it to fully cycle right? 2 amano shrimps should be ok (if you don't feed them and let them eat algae instead). I would do 25% each weekend.


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> hmmm i'm scared that will be too much since you want it to fully cycle right? 2 amano shrimps should be ok (if you don't feed them and let them eat algae instead). I would do 25% each weekend.


where is the cheapest place to get amano shrimps?


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## iBetta

im sure the plants would like some nitrates too, excrements from 2 shrimps should be ok i think


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> im sure the plants would like some nitrates too, excrements from 2 shrimps should be ok i think


will cherry shrimps do the same job?


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## iBetta

cherry shrimps will also eat algae, but in my personal opinion, no shrimps will be as efficient (and less picky!) than amanos. my cherries don't seem to eat hair/thread algae, but my amanos will after i starve them for like 2 days. the best freshwater shrimps that take care of algae is gammarus sp. (you can't find them in lfs, you catch them in rivers, streams etc) but they will eat your plants after they clean up all your algae


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> cherry shrimps will also eat algae, but in my personal opinion, no shrimps will be as efficient (and less picky!) than amanos. my cherries don't seem to eat hair/thread algae, but my amanos will after i starve them for like 2 days. the best freshwater shrimps that take care of algae is gammarus sp. (you can't find them in lfs, you catch them in rivers, streams etc) but they will eat your plants after they clean up all your algae


do you know where is the cheapest place to get amano shrimp?


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## iBetta

i would definitely go to Franks aquarium in markham for shrimps. $1.25-2.00/amano i believe depending on sizes. he's got small and medium.  he can also give you good deals!


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## iBetta

8380 Kennedy Rd
Markham, ON L3R 0W4
(905) 477-1950


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## alexxa

ok thank you
i will go next week so that i can let the tank cycles a bit longer time.
Are amano shrimps sensitive with water? do they die easily?


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## alexxa

will overdosing excel kill them?


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## iBetta

hmmm they are pretty hardy in my opinion. just don't use soft water. if you use RO water, just add a bit of shrimp conditioner (they need some calcium for the shells to be hard and healthy). regular hard/tap water will be fine . they are in the same family of cherries i believe, and are quite tolerant within a range of temperatures and ph levels


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## iBetta

oh but amanos CAN'T breed in freshwater like cherries do. so you dont have to worry to have your tank infested with them if you dont like them XD


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## alexxa

but is it safe to overdose excel if there are amano shrimps?
i have heard that amano shrimps will eat plants if they cant find any alage


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## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> but is it safe to overdose excel if there are amano shrimps?
> i have heard that amano shrimps will eat plants if they cant find any alage


??? do you not feed your shrimp food?


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> ??? do you not feed your shrimp food?


i feed them food.
but i will be away for 2weeks starting this friday, so i am scared that they will eat my plants


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## alexxa

after doing 50% wc and overdose 2x excel, the thread algae stops growing


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## iBetta

congrats!  now you found your own specific method of stopping them . i'm going to try your method too next time I have algae


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## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> i feed them food.
> but i will be away for 2weeks starting this friday, so i am scared that they will eat my plants


the longest I went without feeding cherries is a little under a month and only 2 died out of 5, but I think that was because the tank is over 40c not from starvation.


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## alexxa

i overdosed 2x excel last night...
if i add some cherrys now, will they die?


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## ubr0ke

they might..shrimp can be sensitive to excel or co2 for that matter..
drip accumulation is ur best bet..


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## alexxa

i want to go get some amano shrimps now,but is it too early for a 10days old tank? i added 4 cherry shrimps last night and they are still alive


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## alexxa

is it hair or thread algae?


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## coldmantis

that just looks like dead hair grass to me.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> that just looks like dead hair grass to me.


lol i mean those stringy thing on the hairgrasses.
those dead hair grasses are growing new leaves out


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## ubr0ke

it looks like dead grass to me as well..as long as its not on new growth i wouldnt worry..


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> it looks like dead grass to me as well..as long as its not on new growth i wouldnt worry..


some on new growth actually..
but its like 1 or 2 strings


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## alexxa

i think i will get some amano on wednesday...
just let the tank cycle a bit longer


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## alexxa

some people says that this type of algae grows when the tank is not cycled.
so should i do wc?


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## coldmantis

I can't wait for you dhg to grow in but to be honest I tried dhg on many tanks before and the only tank that grew nice and bushy had 156w of t5ho every other tank didn't look to good.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I can't wait for you dhg to grow in but to be honest I tried dhg on many tanks before and the only tank that grew nice and bushy had 156w of t5ho every other tank didn't look to good.


wt size is that tank?


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## coldmantis

45g tall that's 24" tall vs. the cube. First pic is the cube second is the 45g tall and the cube was planted first maybe 3 months! head start.


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## alexxa

do you regularly trim them?


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## coldmantis

never, the only trim it ever had was when I first planted it to promote faster growth.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> never, the only trim it ever had was when I first planted it to promote faster growth.


i hv heard that trimming will promote them to form a carpet.
also for the thread algae, i hv it in the other tank but it starts to disappear.
so i think that after my cube is cycled, thread algae will disappear .
right now im a bit worried about those cherry shrimps in my cube as the tank isn't yet cycled.


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## alexxa

i will be away for 2 weeks starting from this friday.
scared that the thread algae will take over the tank


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## ubr0ke

put lights on timer for 3 hours a day..


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> put lights on timer for 3 hours a day..


plants are okay with that?


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## alexxa

thread algae is killing hc's leaves...
want to add some amanos but the water is still cloudy


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## alexxa

just found that reducing light time makes thing worst
that will weaken the plants and easier for them to get algae


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## ubr0ke

how did you come to that conclusion?


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> how did you come to that conclusion?


one of my strongest portion of hc got the thread algae
it grew very fast and green. after reducing the light, it stops growing and got the algae.


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## ubr0ke

how long did you decrease the lighting time before you came to this conclusion?


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> how long did you decrease the lighting time before you came to this conclusion?


since last friday.
but i found that decreasing the lighting time doesn't reduce the thread algae


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## ubr0ke

I suggested reducing ur lighting period yesterday and you replied "doesn't that hurt the plants?"...which is confusing...

anyways a 3 day blackout with excel dose will eliminate all thread algae....if its thread algae..

I cant really suggest anything without knowing if you use ferts.. light isn't the only thing that determines plant health..lower nutrient levels will also cause stunting..stunting will lead to algae..


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> I suggested reducing ur lighting period yesterday and you replied "doesn't that hurt the plants?"...which is confusing...
> 
> anyways a 3 day blackout with excel dose will eliminate all thread algae....if its thread algae..
> 
> I cant really suggest anything without knowing if you use ferts.. light isn't the only thing that determines plant health..lower nutrient levels will also cause stunting..stunting will lead to algae..


i don't add any fert except excel as the tank is only flooded for 2weeks


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## ubr0ke

plants need nutrients right off the bat...even if the cycling tank was supplying nitrogen from the ammonia..you still need phosphates and potassium...not to mention micro nutrients...iron,boron,maganese, etc...

if you supply plants with macro's and micro's, its a lot easier to trouble shoot..excess nutrients will not cause problems...i promise...


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> plants need nutrients right off the bat...even if the cycling tank was supplying nitrogen from the ammonia..you still need phosphates and potassium...not to mention micro nutrients...iron,boron,maganese, etc...
> 
> if you supply plants with macro's and micro's, its a lot easier to trouble shoot..excess nutrients will not cause problems...i promise...


so i should dose some fert now?


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## Jsu

Do you have any live stock in the tank? If not then you can try this (I dont know if this is effective or not. I read it somewhere when i was battling BBA and thread algae).

drain the tank and spray excel or H2O2 (mixed with water 1:10 ratio). Then cover the tank with ceram wrap for 20 mins. Refill the tank and good luck.

If anyone had read or use this method please correct me if im wrong.


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## ubr0ke

yes..if you have plants you need to feed them..Using excel will also cause the plants to uptake more nutrients due to the available carbon supply...
Its simple.. if you supply the plants with every nutrient they need to grow and you get algae then its light/co2 issue...




jsu...yes hydrogen peroxide will kill bba and other algae's....you could just drain tank to 50% and spot treat on affected plants...Its a bandaid tho...the algae will come back if you don't fix the problem...


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## alexxa

just added some fert...
i noticed some thread algae in my other tank but they seems to dissappear now after the water turns clear.
i wish the thread algae will disappear after the tank is cycled


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## alexxa

more of them are coming...
will a day of black out help?


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## alexxa

well i think i will have to buy new plants and redo the tank after my 2 week trip..
thread algae is slowly killing my hc


----------



## alexxa

well...
i think i will to give up now..
tried to do 50% wc, tried amano shrimps which died over a night, tried excel, tried to reduce light time..
nothing i can do now, leaving on friday.
and the algae is coming like crazy now.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Crap today's Thursday. Yeah, just let it go. Before you leave though. Do an 80% water change. After the water change, do a 3X Excel. Leave the timer for the tank to keep running 8 hours a day. Make sure your filter is not clog. Then just let it go. You never know, you might be surprise when you come back. Either that or your family will be calling you about algae climbing out of your tank 

Good luck and enjoy yourself.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## alexxa

Zebrapl3co said:


> Crap today's Thursday. Yeah, just let it go. Before you leave though. Do an 80% water change. After the water change, do a 3X Excel. Leave the timer for the tank to keep running 8 hours a day. Make sure your filter is not clog. Then just let it go. You never know, you might be surprise when you come back. Either that or your family will be calling you about algae climbing out of your tank
> 
> Good luck and enjoy yourself.


ok thx i will try it tmr.


----------



## iBetta

awwww , im sorry to hear that. I wouldve bought all your remaining HC and try to revive it since I have a couple of amanos in my tank doing the cleaning


----------



## iBetta

oh and have fun on your trip!


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> oh and have fun on your trip!


thank you.
i took out all shrimps as i didn't want them all dead in the tank.


----------



## iBetta

when will you be leaving? Would you be willing to sell your HC since you're going to start over?


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> when will you be leaving? Would you be willing to sell your HC since you're going to start over?


leaving tmr night. I won't sell them because they are infected by thread algae and are dying. So i will just leave them there and wait for miracle to happen.


----------



## iBetta

alright then, hope they will be ok!  have a good trip!


----------



## alexxa

did a 80% wc and added 9ml of excel


----------



## alexxa

well..
while redoing the tank, i broke the glass in take pipe.
my tank is full of green thread and hair algae, but the hairgrasses are still growing, and most of the HC died


----------



## Zebrapl3co

I am sorry to hear that. Do you have any shrimps in the tank? Maybe you can remove them to another tank.
As for double dosing Excel, you need to do it every day and then a %50 water at the end of the week to get all the excess out.
Is your tank CO2 injected? I can't seem to find any reference to that. HC really do need CO2 injected. I haven't been able to get them to grow healthy without CO2 injection.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## alexxa

Zebrapl3co said:


> I am sorry to hear that. Do you have any shrimps in the tank? Maybe you can remove them to another tank.
> As for double dosing Excel, you need to do it every day and then a %50 water at the end of the week to get all the excess out.
> Is your tank CO2 injected? I can't seem to find any reference to that. HC really do need CO2 injected. I haven't been able to get them to grow healthy without CO2 injection.


yes i was injecting co2 at 3bubbles per second.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

OK, I reread the entire thread, I remember now.
Thats a shame about the in take pipe. I get really nervous when I do mines too. But in the future, soak the rubber tube in hot water for 2 mins and then try to attach them to the glass pipe. It's a bit easier that way. If you have a hot gun, it's even better. Just don't use the hot gun on the glass.
Did you have a filter running before you left or did you pick it up from your trip?
Looking back, it's been almost three months. You might want to redo the entire thing. But this time maybe not so challenging as to switch from submersed to emerse then back to submersed again. It might have been easier if you started off going submersed.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## iBetta

maybe next time you can try a thin layer of fluorite first to promote root growth as well?


----------



## alexxa

Zebrapl3co said:


> OK, I reread the entire thread, I remember now.
> Thats a shame about the in take pipe. I get really nervous when I do mines too. But in the future, soak the rubber tube in hot water for 2 mins and then try to attach them to the glass pipe. It's a bit easier that way. If you have a hot gun, it's even better. Just don't use the hot gun on the glass.
> Did you have a filter running before you left or did you pick it up from your trip?
> Looking back, it's been almost three months. You might want to redo the entire thing. But this time maybe not so challenging as to switch from submersed to emerse then back to submersed again. It might have been easier if you started off going submersed.


i am feeling lucky that i can fix the pipe








i just redo the tank this morning and will add HC when the tank is stable.


----------



## alexxa

btw netlea is a trouble substrate... it keeps releasing ammonia
killed my HC and shrimps


----------



## alexxa

well for next time i should probably go for fluval substrate


----------



## igor.kanshyn

alexxa said:


> btw netlea is a trouble substrate... it keeps releasing ammonia
> killed my HC and shrimps


It will do that for 3-4 weeks. More massive water changes will help.


----------



## alexxa

yep..
so doing dry start method with this substrate is a big nono.
btw i still see some thread algae on the hairgrasses


----------



## alexxa

here it is
lost most of the HC, will add some more when the thread algae is totally gone


----------



## coldmantis

back to square one, you should of just left it to grow emersed if you knew you were going on vacation in the near future.


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> back to square one, you should of just left it to grow emersed if you knew you were going on vacation in the near future.


thats true.
but i don't think i will do dry start anymore.. HC can easily die when transforming from emersed to submersed.


----------



## alexxa

and also i decided to flood the tank because the tank was so hot that HC started to melt. thats y i change it to submersed.


----------



## alexxa

just to tell you guys something (maybe some of you know?), ammonia spike triggers thread algae.


----------



## bigfishy

Woah your back already? 


What kind of goodies have you got for your planted cube? *curious to know*


----------



## alexxa

bigfishy said:


> Woah your back already?
> 
> What kind of goodies have you got for your planted cube? *curious to know*


not much, coz i bought most of them last time.
when will u be back?


----------



## bigfishy

alexxa said:


> not much, coz i bought most of them last time.
> when will u be back?


in a few weeks

since you broke your glass intake tube, do you need a replacement?


----------



## alexxa

bigfishy said:


> in a few weeks
> 
> since you broke your glass intake tube, do you need a replacement?


no thx
i fixed it like this


----------



## Zebrapl3co

Lol, well if it works ...

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## alexxa

Zebrapl3co said:


> Lol, well if it works ...


yea it works, no water leak


----------



## alexxa

here is an update photo
lost most of the HC, only little left, but i already see some growth
will add some amano shrimps when the tank is ready to clear out the thread algae.


----------



## Zebrapl3co

alexxa said:


> here is an update photo
> lost most of the HC, only little left, but i already see some growth
> will add some amano shrimps when the tank is ready to clear out the thread algae.


You might want to keep an eye on the shrimps. If the HC is not rooted deep enough, the shrimps will dig it up.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## alexxa

Zebrapl3co said:


> You might want to keep an eye on the shrimps. If the HC is not rooted deep enough, the shrimps will dig it up.


okay thank you


----------



## alexxa

new scape


----------



## alexxa

i hv a few stems of hc that are turning brown. what is happening?
ph 6.5
gh 4
nh3/nh4 0.2ppm
co2 1bps


----------



## coldmantis

are you dosing any fertz?


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> are you dosing any fertz?


only 0.5ml excel everyday


----------



## coldmantis

dose some micros that will get rid of the yellow colour


----------



## iBetta

what about brown leaves? they dont seem to die and wither away. my HC just grow runners and new leaves like crazy, then the whole leaves turn brownish on the the cover of the leaf (it almost looks likes it algae, maybe it is?). im using dry ferts, could it also be a lack of micro? it's not like it's melting or turning yellow or anything , it's a dark brown..... 
thanks!


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> what about brown leaves? they dont seem to die and wither away. my HC just grow runners and new leaves like crazy, then the whole leaves turn brownish on the the cover of the leaf (it almost looks likes it algae, maybe it is?). im using dry ferts, could it also be a lack of micro? it's not like it's melting or turning yellow or anything , it's a dark brown.....
> thanks!


same as me


----------



## coldmantis

trust me start dosing micro/trace and your leafs will turn green again


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> trust me start dosing micro/trace and your leafs will turn green again


ok thank you.


----------



## ubr0ke

if its only hc..its probably a co2 issue...hc is extremely sensitive when it comes to co2 levels...keep in mind this plant naturally grows close to the surface where co2 levels are elevated...

add your micro's..if that doesn't work bump up your co2 slowly..


----------



## iBetta

ok thanks! i usually use trace/micro every 2 days, so should i use it everyday until it returns green again? will try after my water change tomorrow! thanks a lot!


----------



## ubr0ke

If your dosing traces every 2 days then its not a trace problem...its co2...
Try dosing more iron...dose epson salt as well...I don't think its a nutrient problem but thats easy eliminated by adding iron and magnesium..when you supply non limiting nutrients and still have issues its always going to be co2..

It could also be a macro issue but without knowing what your dosing I can't be sure...


----------



## alexxa

just planted some more HC and added micro


----------



## ubr0ke

change that lily pipe to the back right side..so the flow is directed at the glass diffuser


----------



## alexxa

i tried to put the diffusor under the outflow pipe, but it couldn't blow the co2


----------



## ubr0ke

move the diffuser close to the front...move the outflow to the back directed at the diffuser.


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> move the diffuser close to the front...move the outflow to the back directed at the diffuser.


sorry i dont understand that


----------



## ubr0ke

Excuse the bad drawing..









keep the diffuser low in the tank..


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> Excuse the bad drawing..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keep the diffuser low in the tank..


oh thx
i am actually doing the same thing, just the other side.
co2 bubbles are flying everywhere.


----------



## ubr0ke

I realize that but flow would be better directed towards the hc..


----------



## coldmantis

I noticed that you don't have a drop checker, how do you know if you have enough co2 if you don't have a drop checker. Just because you blast your co2 doesn't mean it's being dissolved properly into your water. buy a drop checker, and get a 4dkh solution and you will know if it's your co2 or not.


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I noticed that you don't have a drop checker, how do you know if you have enough co2 if you don't have a drop checker. Just because you blast your co2 doesn't mean it's being dissolved properly into your water. buy a drop checker, and get a 4dkh solution and you will know if it's your co2 or not.











is this how a co2 indicator works?


----------



## alexxa

if thats how i supposed to do i have ph 6.5 and kh 8
resulting a co2 concentration of 94ppm...???


----------



## coldmantis

err.. that chart is just for reference only not really that accurate and is absolutely useless if you have soil that lowers the ph and kh.... get a drop checker.


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> err.. that chart is just for reference only not really that accurate and is absolutely useless if you have soil that lowers the ph and kh.... get a drop checker.


ok i will get one.


----------



## alexxa

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Aquarium-CO2...ultDomain_0&hash=item25622ac2f7#ht_3155wt_938
this one ok?


----------



## alexxa

and how can i make a 4dkh solution?


----------



## ubr0ke

look for someone who is selling a 4dkh solution...Im pretty sure someone here is...

a drop checker is not very accurate due to the same reasons the chart isnt...but its closer...A drop checker is a good tool to get you close to levels you need..Fish are a better tool...Bump up co2 until ur fish start to stress..this should be done over a few days..everyday adjust co2 up a little bit..the day your fish stress return to the level you had the day before..As plant mass increases co2 will have to be increased as well...

co2 is the hardest part of planted tanks to master...


----------



## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Aquarium-CO2...ultDomain_0&hash=item25622ac2f7#ht_3155wt_938
> this one ok?


don't get that one, it's bigger then it looks and kind of looks out of place in the cube tank
get this one
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ISTA-Plant-Aquarium-CO2-Checker-Test-Agent-Kit-/370455623092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5640e035b4
looks way more modern and easier to read, as for the 4dkh solution send me a pm.


----------



## iBetta

alexxa, i increased my dose of excel a bit and the algae are gone!


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> don't get that one, it's bigger then it looks and kind of looks out of place in the cube tank
> get this one
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ISTA-Plant-Aquarium-CO2-Checker-Test-Agent-Kit-/370455623092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5640e035b4
> looks way more modern and easier to read, as for the 4dkh solution send me a pm.


i will get that later thx


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> alexxa, i increased my dose of excel a bit and the algae are gone!


u mean those brown/dark color on HC?


----------



## iBetta

ya!  they were algae since you can scrap it off with your finger. try adding a bit more excel (since you aren't using dry ferts) and maybe they'll go away too!  i didn't try dosing more micro yet but excel helped me clear them


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> ya!  they were algae since you can scrap it off with your finger. try adding a bit more excel (since you aren't using dry ferts) and maybe they'll go away too!  i didn't try dosing more micro yet but excel helped me clear them


then mine is different from urs. i tried to scrap it off but i couldn't and the whole stem of HC is brown.


----------



## alexxa

those brown stems are not melting or dying, they just remain like that and stop growing.


----------



## iBetta

ya those are old stems and leaves right? mine just keep growing shoots, new leaves (vivid green) and runners but they next day they turn brown. but they're not melting or anything, they're still alive. so after i dosed some more excel, most of the algae are gone O:!


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> ya those are old stems and leaves right? mine just keep growing shoots, new leaves (vivid green) and runners but they next day they turn brown. but they're not melting or anything, they're still alive. so after i dosed some more excel, most of the algae are gone O:!


yes thats the situation i am having, but i tried to scrap the surface of the leaves and nothing came off. Also i dose 0.5ml excel everyday.


----------



## iBetta

try doubling your dosing for now (that's what i did). you don't have any livestock yet right? so that should be ok.

excel usually kills off algae, and if your stem/leaves aren't melting/wilting, then it's probable that it's algae. try doubling your dose, and try to scrape if off again. maybe it'll become easier to scrap off or it would actually come off , then you would know it's algae


----------



## alexxa

i actually have 5shrimps in it >.<


----------



## iBetta

are they cherries or amanos? those are pretty hardy. i have about 10 of the same genus and they haven't died on me yet....but i can understand your concern...maybe try to increase the dose in smaller proportions? or dose micros?


----------



## coldmantis

be careful with micros and shrimp, micros might kill/or stop their breeding habits


----------



## ubr0ke

copper can kill shrimp..not micro's...you would have to extremely over dose micro's to get to that concentration of copper.

excel and co2 can hinder breeding or cause death in shrimp tho...


----------



## coldmantis

ubr0ke said:


> copper can kill shrimp..not micro's...you would have to extremely over dose micro's to get to that concentration of copper.
> 
> excel and co2 can hinder breeding or cause death in shrimp tho...


that's why I said it "might" I didn't read this and and summarized it for Alex, micro's have copper in it, and this is base on my personal experience. when I started dosing micros in my shrimp tank I had 200+ yellow shrimp and 50+ crs all of them stop breeding and some of my crs started to die off followed by the yellows very slowly, to this day my yellows has never successfully bred like it did before I dose micros, I still dose micros for the sake of my carpet tank where I keep my yellow shrimp, I just moved the crs to another tank. I started with seachem flourish at half dose 2 times a week until I switched to pps pro 2.9ml/day for my 29 gallon.


----------



## alexxa

update


----------



## coldmantis

looking good your one your way, lol I think I just bought that diffuser on ebay a few hours ago, it's a U tube one right? 1 piece?


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> looking good your one your way, lol I think I just bought that diffuser on ebay a few hours ago, it's a U tube one right? 1 piece?


yes it is. how much was it?


----------



## coldmantis

I think it was 11.50usd shipped


----------



## alexxa

im getting another type of thread algae, they look green and they are thick like human hair..


----------



## alexxa

i hv ammonia level of 0ppm so i dunno wt triggers the algae


----------



## alexxa

and my amano shrimp seems to be dying
ph 6.5
gh 5
nh3/nh4+ 0


----------



## alexxa

alexxa said:


> and my amano shrimp seems to be dying
> ph 6.5
> gh 5
> nh3/nh4+ 0


the amano shimp is still dying =.=''
its probably struggling to remove its exoskeleton as i see some gap between his body's shell. The weirld part is that i hv gh 6 and should be fine for it.


----------



## solarz

alexxa said:


> the amano shimp is still dying =.=''
> its probably struggling to remove its exoskeleton as i see some gap between his body's shell. The weirld part is that i hv gh 6 and should be fine for it.


That's strange, the amano shrimp is one of the toughest shrimps there are. I can think of two possibilities:

- the pH is too low for the amanos (I'm just guessing here, as I've never kept amanos in low pH waters)

- the amano is dying of natural causes simply because he's too old.

Why do you think it's dying though?


----------



## alexxa

solarz said:


> That's strange, the amano shrimp is one of the toughest shrimps there are. I can think of two possibilities:
> 
> - the pH is too low for the amanos (I'm just guessing here, as I've never kept amanos in low pH waters)
> 
> - the amano is dying of natural causes simply because he's too old.
> 
> Why do you think it's dying though?


because it turns on its side, just like a dead shrimp.
ph is around 6.5 and gh 6 should be also ok because i just saw a cherry removing its shell yesterday.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

alexxa said:


> im getting another type of thread algae, they look green and they are thick like human hair..


It's stringy algae. I would say that it's the worst algae type. If it's in the moss, it's impossible to clean out.
Amano shrimps eat it.


----------



## alexxa

igor.kanshyn said:


> It's stringy algae. I would say that it's the worst algae type. If it's in the moss, it's impossible to clean out.
> Amano shrimps eat it.


will it spread like crazy and cover the whole tank?


----------



## alexxa

do u guys put nerite snail to clean algae?
i tried but cant because it escaped, maybe it doesn't like acid water.


----------



## iBetta

they will generally try to climb up if they don't like the water conditions (actually, ive found that pest snails do that too) but in my opinion, if you don't want white snail eggs all over the place (like your rocks, glass edges), id say skip the snail


----------



## Will

igor.kanshyn said:


> It's stringy algae. I would say that it's the worst algae type. If it's in the moss, it's impossible to clean out.
> Amano shrimps eat it.


I had thread algae one time, it was horrible. Turns out I was dosing more Iron than the plants were using and this caused instant bloom of thread algae. Took many months to get under control and it's still there to a point.

The best time to get rid of nuissance algae is before it shows up, after that, the minute you find it.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

alexxa said:


> will it spread like crazy and cover the whole tank?


Oh yeah! It will 

Look at the picture here: Stringy or thread algae in a shrimp tank
I specially made it for you 

But do not be upset now. First of all, your tank is not full of plants and you will be able to clean algae manually.
Then, this algae can be not a stringy algae, if it will not grow long thread.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

alexxa said:


> do u guys put nerite snail to clean algae?
> i tried but cant because it escaped, maybe it doesn't like acid water.


I had them in a tank like that. It was this one: 



, the same as yours.
I also have dwarf hair grass in it and zebra nerite snails were destroying it. I've removed them. Algae eater (SAE) is a great fish, that will help you. Be sure that you are getting a small ones and it's better to get several fish. They will be live and 'work' in such a small tank until they are small enough.


----------



## 03pilot

SAE is great for thread algae. However they are known to be good jumpers so unless you put a lid on your tank, its not a good idea for you. I lost one nice SAE like that in less than a day. Lesson learned. 

Try pulling off as much as possible by hand/tooth brush. Add a few Amanos. It took a while but it worked for me. Good luck!!


----------



## alexxa

ok thx, i think i will stop adding any fert and do wc every 3days for now


----------



## ubr0ke

i love how everyone here blames algae on nutrients...I can post hundreds of pics of my tanks where i can gaurentee i dose more nitrogen, phosphates, potassium, iron, magnesium, and all other traces then anyone on here and yet still don't have algae...how come?

nobody here ever measures lights or knows what non limiting co2 means..
if you would stop worrying about nutrients and concentrate on light and co2 you would never have issues..

algae is almost always caused by nutrients being low but never caused by nutirents in excess..co2 included..this is well documented on many sites...barrreport.com, plantedtank.net, thekrib.com

if you would just realize light is behind the demand for nutrients..co2 included then planted tanks become easy..the more light..the more co2 needed..the more nutrients needed..its that simple..


----------



## alexxa

just did a big trim on the dhg, i noticed some string algaes that grow on / inside the grasses but it is almost impossible to remove. What can i do? I already have 2 amano shrimps.


----------



## alexxa

and wt can i do to prevent a big boom of the string algae?


----------



## ubr0ke

concentrate on growing plants and forget about eliminating algae....ovefilter, make sure you have lots of flow and no dead spots, supply plants with non limiting nutrients, keep co2 at optimal levels, and start with low light...you can't fail if you do everything i said...

downoi would be considered a med/high light plant...the downoi in my avatar is grown at 1.2 wpg of t5ho...its compact and spreads really fast..high light is a myth..nutrients and co2 are far more important..


----------



## alexxa

ok thank you, just bumped up the co2


----------



## ubr0ke

what do you fertilze with?


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> what do you fertilze with?


nutrafin plant gro


----------



## ubr0ke

thats it?..


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> thats it?..


also K2Po4


----------



## ubr0ke

kh2p04??..or k2po4


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> kh2p04??..or k2po4


yea kh2po4


----------



## ubr0ke

ya i thought kh2po4..
either way you need to add more nitrogen..

nutrafin plant gro
Guaranteed Analysis:
- Total Nitrogen (N): 0.15%
--0.15% Water Soluble Organic Nitrogen (Cheleated agent)
- Iron (Fe): 0.26%
-- 0.26% Chelated Iron
- Manganese (Mn): 0.05%
-- 0.05% Chelated and soluble Manganese
- Zinc (Zn): 0.003%
-- 0.003% Chelated Zinc
- Boron (B): 0.0005%
- Copper (Cu): 0.0005%
-- 0.0005% Chelated Copper
- Molybdate (Mo): 0.0007%
-- 0.0007% Chelated Molybdate 

This is a very small amount of nitrogen mixed with micro's..Micro's(iron, magnesium, boron etc) are essential but Macro's(nitrogen, potassium, phosphates) are even more important...you can limit potassium or phosphates but nitrogen can not be limited...without enough nitrogen your plants will stunt..then the algae will start..

you need either seachem nitrogen or kno3...if you dont supply that then ur fighting a losing cause.


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> ya i thought kh2po4..
> either way you need to add more nitrogen..
> 
> nutrafin plant gro
> Guaranteed Analysis:
> - Total Nitrogen (N): 0.15%
> --0.15% Water Soluble Organic Nitrogen (Cheleated agent)
> - Iron (Fe): 0.26%
> -- 0.26% Chelated Iron
> - Manganese (Mn): 0.05%
> -- 0.05% Chelated and soluble Manganese
> - Zinc (Zn): 0.003%
> -- 0.003% Chelated Zinc
> - Boron (B): 0.0005%
> - Copper (Cu): 0.0005%
> -- 0.0005% Chelated Copper
> - Molybdate (Mo): 0.0007%
> -- 0.0007% Chelated Molybdate
> 
> This is a very small amount of nitrogen mixed with micro's..Micro's(iron, magnesium, boron etc) are essential but Macro's(nitrogen, potassium, phosphates) are even more important...you can limit potassium or phosphates but nitrogen can not be limited...without enough nitrogen your plants will stunt..then the algae will start..
> 
> you need either seachem nitrogen or kno3...if you dont supply that then ur fighting a losing cause.


ok thx i will get seachem nitrogen


----------



## ubr0ke

what size tank do you have?


----------



## alexxa

i see a few new stems of hc turning brown, is it co2 or iron deficiency?


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> what size tank do you have?


around 27L


----------



## ubr0ke

its hard to say...but id rule out iron based on you dosing nutrafin..its more likely nitrogen based on what i know about ur dosing..

co2 can be wasted if nutrients are not available..co2 increases the "hunger" of plants..if they have nothing to eat then they don't grow


----------



## Will

ubr0ke, in your opinion whats the best most comprehensive _single product_ you've seen available on the local market?


----------



## alexxa

Will Hayward said:


> ubr0ke, in your opinion whats the best most comprehensive _single product_ you've seen available on the local market?


yes, i want to know if there is any comprehensive macronutrient fert on the market too


----------



## alexxa

for a new start tank, when should i start to fert into the water column?


----------



## 03pilot

Will Hayward said:


> ubr0ke, in your opinion whats the best most comprehensive _single product_ you've seen available on the local market?


ubr0ke, I would like to know too. 

I think Tropica's PLANT NUTRITION+ liquid should make the list. Unfortunately it very expensive to buy in Canada. It triggered me learning EI dosing.

http://www.tropica.com/aquacare/plant-nutritionplus-liquid.aspx

New Edit:
ADA's Green Brighty Special LIGHTS & Green Brighty Special SHADE may be another candidate for comprehensive liquid ferts. http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_10_18&products_id=39

"Green Brighty Special LIGHTS is a nutrient formula containing trace elements, Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium for healthy growth of plants...." But what puzzles me is this warning at the end of the description _*Use only when algae is not rampant.*_ What's the logic behind this?? Wondering what would a ADA loyalist use when there is algae presence in their tank?


----------



## ubr0ke

Will Hayward said:


> ubr0ke, in your opinion whats the best most comprehensive _single product_ you've seen available on the local market?


honestly..i refuse to pay for water..I could buy a year of dry ferts for what it cost to buy a bottle of a premixed soultion..locally dry ferts are pretty easy to find..the only issue is kno3 has to be mixed in water to be sold in Canada...I pay $6 for 1/lb.....kh2po4 is $5 for 1/lb..csm+b i order from Canadian aquatics..which is $13/lb...I also use dtpa fe..which i have to order from the states..its kind of expensive..i think around $20/lb..I usually sell it locally since a lb would last a 2 lifetimes..then mgso4 i just buy at the local drug store or grocery store..all dry ferts can be ordered of canadian aquatics if you have trouble finding them locally
if you want to add it as a solution..just mix the kno3 and kh2po4 in one bottle..then mix csm+b, dtpa fe, and mgso4 in another bottle..use petalphile.com for a fert calculator to make the mixes meet your needs..

sorry if i didn't answer your question but pre mixed solutions are just dry ferts mixed with water..with a fancy name and a high price tag


----------



## Will

Yup, you are right, that's not an answer to my question at all...

This has nothing to do with cost, branding, packaging. The question is still valid. Please answer it if you can get around your stubborness. Sure dry bulk bought ferts are effective and cost effective. That is another matter entirely, this is about a comprehensive product.


----------



## 03pilot

ubr0ke said:


> honestly..i refuse to pay for water..I could buy a year of dry ferts for what it cost to buy a bottle of a premixed soultion..locally dry ferts are pretty easy to find..the only issue is kno3 has to be mixed in water to be sold in Canada...I pay $6 for 1/lb.....kh2po4 is $5 for 1/lb..csm+b i order from Canadian aquatics..which is $13/lb...I also use dtpa fe..which i have to order from the states..its kind of expensive..i think around $20/lb..I usually sell it locally since a lb would last a 2 lifetimes..then mgso4 i just buy at the local drug store or grocery store..all dry ferts can be ordered of canadian aquatics if you have trouble finding them locally
> if you want to add it as a solution..just mix the kno3 and kh2po4 in one bottle..then mix csm+b, dtpa fe, and mgso4 in another bottle..use petalphile.com for a fert calculator to make the mixes meet your needs..
> 
> sorry if i didn't answer your question but pre mixed solutions are just dry ferts mixed with water..with a fancy name and a high price tag


Actually now you can buy dry kno3 from Hydroponic stores like Hydrotech. How often do you dose dtpa fe and mgso4 and what is the purpose. They are not the typical EI dosing chemical, right? Thanks in advance...


----------



## ubr0ke

alexxa said:


> for a new start tank, when should i start to fert into the water column?


As soon as I start a tank i start dosing..I usually start with about 1/2 of what ei suggests..for the first 2 weeks..nh4 during a cycle will be used up by the plants as nitrogen source..so less n03 is needed...but if you add no3 it wont hurt its just wasted..


----------



## ubr0ke

Will Hayward said:


> Yup, you are right, that's not an answer to my question at all...
> 
> This has nothing to do with cost, branding, packaging. The question is still valid. Please answer it if you can get around your stubborness. Sure dry bulk bought ferts are effective and cost effective. That is another matter entirely, this is about a comprehensive product.


I can't answer a question I know nothing about..sorry dollars make sense.


----------



## Will

Fair enough. You seem to find it easy to give opinion on alexxa's chosen fert, so I thought to ask you. Thanks.


----------



## ubr0ke

03pilot said:


> Actually now you can buy dry kno3 from Hydroponic stores like Hydrotech. How often do you dose dtpa fe and mgso4 and what is the purpose. They are not the typical EI dosing chemical, right? Thanks in advance...


I dose with on trace day..dtpa fe or iron is usually a little low in trace mix same with mgso4 or magnesium..I dose these to provide plants with non limiting levels of both so i know plants are being fed as much as they can take..ei dosing has kind of evolved to include both more iron and magnesium..i used dtpa and not edta or gluconate simply because its a better chelate for hard water..it will not dissapate as fast as the other two i mentioned.


----------



## ubr0ke

Will Hayward said:


> Fair enough. You seem to find it easy to give opinion on alexxa's chosen fert, so I thought to ask you. Thanks.


i give an opinion because i looked at the analysis..Im not going to look through all the branded fert analysis's just come up with an answer to your question when I think somthing is a waste of money to begin with...nutrafin plant gro is a trace mix similar to seachem comprehensive or tropica plant nutrion...its not a macro mix..Im familar with all 3 products and all 3 contain very low levels of macro's.

I may add..seachem flourish and nutrafin plant gro, or tropica are fine to use for micro dosing..but csm+b or millers microplex are cheaper options..


----------



## 03pilot

ubr0ke said:


> I dose with on trace day..dtpa fe or iron is usually a little low in trace mix same with mgso4 or magnesium..I dose these to provide plants with non limiting levels of both so i know plants are being fed as much as they can take..ei dosing has kind of evolved to include both more iron and magnesium..i used dtpa and not edta or gluconate simply because its a better chelate for hard water..it will not dissapate as fast as the other two i mentioned.


Thank you!


----------



## coldmantis

I only dose K2S04, KH2P04 and micro, I dont' dose KN03 because my tank is overstocked and fishes produce more then enough nitrates, I also don't dose MgS04 because toronto water is hard enough no need to make it harder, dosing mgS04 in a shrimp tank gives my shrimps molting problems.


----------



## ubr0ke

I would still dose kno3..dose half of what ei suggests..I also have overstocked tanks but nitrates are somthing you never want to run at low levels..Plants will stunt..algae will start..Out of the 3 macro's, nitrates are the only one that when limited has adverse affects very quickly and take weeks to fix..the ks04 i don't use..but I get why you use it..since you need the extra K..not dosing kno3..

as for mgso4..my water is the same as yours but i still dose..Some plants love magnesium and since the ratio is around 4:1..calcium to magnesium..I like to make it closer to 3:1...

shrimp have more issues with co2 then any nutrient..check out there natural habitat..the water is much harder then ours in some cases. I guess depending on shrimp..

tds is fairly important as well..

shrimp tanks and co2 injected tanks should be seperate IMO..


----------



## alexxa

i have few stems of hc that are turning pale green color, thats a no3 problem (or any other nutrients deficiency)?


----------



## ubr0ke

that would be my guess...deficiencies in aquatic plants can look similar no matter what nutrient they are missing including co2...its not so cut and dry like terrestrial plants....terrestrial plants always have non limiting co2...they can only be limited by light and nutrients...nutrients being the most common...aquatic plants can be limited by light, nutrients or co2...co2 being the most common..

thats why i suggest to add eveything in excess..then when you have issues, its usually co2/light issues..I only say usually because flow and organic build up can also play into the equation..a tank with low oxygen levels or too high of a bioload can also cause problems..thats why a couple post back i suggest to dose in excess.. overfilter and make sure you have lots of flow..do big water changes instead of numerous small ones..if you do that then you can concentrate on the light/co2 relationship..which is the toughest one to master..it makes trouble shooting easy..once again ill say it..concentrate on providing the plants with everything they need to out compete the algae..you will never limit nutrients when it comes to algae..thats where many make mistakes..plants are a superior specie for a reason..if they are provided everything they need to flourish then algae doesnt stand a chance..

no one i know got into keeping live plants to stop algae..they got into to grow plants...if you do that, algae becomes less of an issue..


----------



## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> that would be my guess...deficiencies in aquatic plants can look similar no matter what nutrient they are missing including co2...its not so cut and dry like terrestrial plants....terrestrial plants always have non limiting co2...they can only be limited by light and nutrients...nutrients being the most common...aquatic plants can be limited by light, nutrients or co2...co2 being the most common..
> 
> thats why i suggest to add eveything in excess..then when you have issues, its usually co2/light issues..I only say usually because flow and organic build up can also play into the equation..a tank with low oxygen levels or too high of a bioload can also cause problems..thats why a couple post back i suggest to dose in excess.. overfilter and make sure you have lots of flow..do big water changes instead of numerous small ones..if you do that then you can concentrate on the light/co2 relationship..which is the toughest one to master..it makes trouble shooting easy..once again ill say it..concentrate on providing the plants with everything they need to out compete the algae..you will never limit nutrients when it comes to algae..thats where many make mistakes..plants are a superior specie for a reason..if they are provided everything they need to flourish then algae doesnt stand a chance..
> 
> no one i know got into keeping live plants to stop algae..they got into to grow plants...if you do that, algae becomes less of an issue..


ok thank you very much


----------



## alexxa

btw i just want to let you guys know i dont see my amano shrimps eat those string algae, and i just found a dead amano. the weird thing is that the cherries are doing fine.


----------



## 03pilot

What's being discussed here is very interesting. Too bad I only studied chemistry for one year and that was like 30 years ago...LOL! So you know how hard for me to grasp the concept. I think I have learned quite a bit. Hope we can keep this going...

ubr0ke, would you mind to answer the following questions.

1) I assume when we dosage EI with excess nutrient than the plants can consume, what happen to the excess nutrient, do they stay in the water column? And why can't algae make sure of the excess nutrient? Why healthy plants and algae cannot co-exist?

2) I thought Algae is just like plants and they also need CO2 to survive. Why CO2 can be a determining factor in algae control?

3) Can you also explain why ADA do not recommend their comprehensive liquid fert users to use it if algae is flourishing in their tank?? See here: http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_10_18&products_id=39

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Thank you in advance!

Sorry Alex!


----------



## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> btw i just want to let you guys know i dont see my amano shrimps eat those string algae, and i just found a dead amano. the weird thing is that the cherries are doing fine.


That's strange! Have you checked your water's ammonia, nitrite level? I think Amano shrimp is very hardy. But your cherries are doing fine...

Are they eating at all? If your sting algae is still healthy...amano may go after other easier food in the tank first.


----------



## alexxa

i want to buy some fishes to put in my tank and i prefer goldenpencil fish. How many should i get? 3 or 5?


----------



## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> i want to buy some fishes to put in my tank and i prefer goldenpencil fish. How many should i get? 3 or 5?


Alex, please think twice before adding new fishes. You are responsible for their well being. Your tank is not stable from what I learned.


----------



## alexxa

03pilot said:


> Alex, please think twice before adding new fishes. You are responsible for their well being. Your tank is not stable from what I learned.


k thx for your sugguestion, i will wait a few more weeks before adding new fishes


----------



## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> k thx for your sugguestion, i will wait a few more weeks before adding new fishes


I think I was too harsh on you...LOL! Hope you don't mind!!!

You probably don't need to wait that long. Your tank is fully cycled, right? Just not sure what causes your Amano to died. Maybe it was just a fluke? If there is no problem with your ammonia and nitrate level, maybe add couple of fishes at a time?


----------



## alexxa

03pilot said:


> I think I was too harsh on you...LOL! Hope you don't mind!!!
> 
> You probably don't need to wait that long. Your tank is fully cycled, right? Just not sure what causes your Amano to died. Maybe it was just a fluke? If there is no problem with your ammonia and nitrate level, maybe add couple of fishes at a time?


ammonia is 0ppm but i dunno nitrate coz i dun hv no3 tester. my tank is probably cycled because it has been 3 weeks. I think i should try 3 fishes first. They should be fine because my cherries are doing great in the tank.


----------



## coldmantis

in my cube I started off with 2 fire reds male/female, 1 amano shrimp and 1 nirite snail, within the first week or so after flooding, then maybe 2 more weeks 1 oto, 1 week later about 3 babie plecos after about 3 more weeks 12 chili rasboras, then 3 more firereds, at least 3 firereds disappeared, can't find the body maybe jumped out? the shrimp mated and had babies in the tank and they are growing well. at least 5 chili rasboras died because my water level is way too high and they jumped out. all the plecos jumped out too.


----------



## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> ammonia is 0ppm but i dunno nitrate coz i dun hv no3 tester. my tank is probably cycled because it has been 3 weeks. I think i should try 3 fishes first. They should be fine because my cherries are doing great in the tank.


It depends on how you started your nitrogen cycle? Did you borrow any filter materials from another tank or bacteria booster to build up the beneficial bacteria within your tank and bio filter? If not, 3 weeks may not be enough. You should buy a nitrite test kit to test your water. Nitrite is deadly to your fish. Make sure its nitrite (not nitrate) you are testing. Sorry I made a mistake in my previous post. Nitrate is not as deadly and usually cleared away with wc. Good luck!


----------



## alexxa

here is an update


----------



## Will

Nice start! drop your CO2 diffuser almost as low as it can go, it will give the best diffusion.


----------



## coldmantis

Will Hayward said:


> Nice start! drop your CO2 diffuser almost as low as it can go, it will give the best diffusion.


I think he has the one piece glass that hooks on the tank, pretty sure that's as low as he can go.


----------



## Will

Ahhh, okay.


----------



## alexxa

yea thats the lowest


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## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> here is an update


Very nice!! Where did you get the rocks? They are beautiful.


----------



## alexxa

03pilot said:


> Very nice!! Where did you get the rocks? They are beautiful.


got them in hk. they are ada yamaya rock


----------



## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> got them in hk. they are ada yamaya rock


How big is the ADA store in HK? Are they expensive? I heard there are streets full of stores that sell aquatic tank, plants, livestock and accessories. Is that true? Do you still remember the name of the street. I can't wait to go back there....


----------



## alexxa

03pilot said:


> How big is the ADA store in HK? Are they expensive? I heard there are streets full of stores that sell aquatic tank, plants, livestock and accessories. Is that true? Do you still remember the name of the street. I can't wait to go back there....


actually there isn't an official ada store in hk, but there are some stores that carry ada products. The gold fish street is in Mong kok, the whole street is full of aquarium stores. I have also been to the fish street in taipei taiwan, but it is much smaller than the one in hk.
http://www.12hk.com/area/Mongkok/MongkokGoldfishStreet.shtml


----------



## alexxa

btw i got those 4 rocks for $80hkd, which is like $10cad


----------



## 03pilot

They are not as cheap as I thought. still over $3 a pound. But they do look nice. Have you had a chance to check you nitrite level? Now I know why you can't wait to add fishes in your tank. It would be awesome to watch them swimming around in your tank...


----------



## alexxa

03pilot said:


> They are not as cheap as I thought. still over $3 a pound. But they do look nice. Have you had a chance to check you nitrite level? Now I know why you can't wait to add fishes in your tank. It would be awesome to watch them swimming around in your tank...


i didn't buy no2/no3 checker, i think i will have to get one


----------



## 03pilot

alexxa said:


> i didn't buy no2/no3 checker, i think i will have to get one


If you live close to woodbine & 7 during the day tmr. You can come and borrow mine. You only need it for starting a new tanks. Once you tank is stable, you rarely need to use it. PM me if you are interested...


----------



## alexxa

03pilot said:


> If you live close to woodbine & 7 during the day tmr. You can come and borrow mine. You only need it for starting a new tanks. Once you tank is stable, you rarely need to use it. PM me if you are interested...


no thx i think i am fine


----------



## alexxa

so after one night i notice more HC leaves are turning brown. they were still looking green last night. it shouldn't be a co2 problem because i just bumped up the co2 2days ago. Its probably a nutrient problem maybe?


----------



## alexxa

so now i notice more and more start to develop brown color on the leaves. maybe i overdose kh2po4 two days ago? i just did a 30% wc.


----------



## alexxa

i am worried now, after i did the 30%wc i added 0.25ml flourish fert and 0.5ml excel, but i see more and more leaves are losing their green and turning brown.


----------



## alexxa

i see some more turning brown again. Anyone have any idea of wts going on?
would it be because i added too much kh2po4 few days ago?


----------



## Rmwbrown

This is always the problem with plants. Your reaction time is faster than their reaction time. There is a certain lag involved in any treatment.. days or weeks. What your about to do is start freaking out, doing water changes, messing with your dosing, or messing with your Co2 trying to fix the problem. I know because I have done the same!

Don't! Stop right now. HC is dumb easy to grow under the right conditions, and it will grow back fast.

If your light and Co2 is good (30ppm) then your probably looking at a nutrient problem. If it is browning, it is probably nitrogen deficiency. However, it is hard to say without any pictures. Take a look at the chart in the link below, identify the problem, and then take an even approach to solving it. More over, do not over dose. Watch if for a week and then make changes. A great planted tank takes months, don't rush it.

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/plan...ts-anubias-dissolving-dwarf-baby-tears-16111/


----------



## alexxa

here is a photo. I experience similar problem when i first started the tank, i added kh2po4 and after few days some hc turned brown, but the problem disappeared after a while. However this time i see more and more leaves turning brown everyday which they were still pearling yesterday.


----------



## Rmwbrown

Others can certainly chime in on this, but I'm thinking your tank is stripped of nitrogen and phosphate. Run some water tests and see where your at - that's the only way to be sure.


----------



## Rmwbrown

What are you dosing btw?


----------



## alexxa

nutrafin plant gro and kh2po4


----------



## Rmwbrown

Sorry if you have mentioned this... i have not been following this post.. I'm not a big fan of the dry start method.


----------



## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> Sorry if you have mentioned this... i have not been following this post.. I'm not a big fan of the dry start method.


my dry start method was a fail and i replant everything that are submerged 3 weeks ago


----------



## iBetta

if all other methods fail, i would say try this (though it might not be the best advice lol):

i would say try the EI dosing method coupled with excel. even if it turns brown, melts, ignore it for 1-2 weeks AS LONG AS new healthy leaves keep spurting out (which should because new growth is promoted by EI). sometimes when HC melts/turns brown BUT keeps growing new healthy leaves, it would kind of "replace itself" entirely with new leaves and new growth will start...kinda like shedding fur or something i guess lol

after a month or so, the HC should be mainly compromised of new leaves only (assuming that all the affected old ones have died and replaced by new leaves), you can lessen your dose of excel and EI (or even maybe stop them). i always have my c02 on though. excel should prevent leaves from browning when you promote new growth with EI. im not a big technical guy, trying to find out every little detail on chemicals, ppm, etc etc. as long as it works for my plants and i get a general broader understanding of plant growth, nutrients then im good 

just like you, ive started my HC carpet EMERSED, but they never melted nor turned brown using the method proposed above . now im only running C02. nitrates come from livestock. good luck!


----------



## Rmwbrown

Ahh okay, well given you have what, 5 wpg compact florescent and pressurized Co2? You probably need to start running a proper dosing regime. You can do this using seachem products or it is much cheaper to get everything from a hydroponics place and start dosing dry or a home maid mix.

Seachem have a calculator online. For dry ferts, look at this.. 
http://www.rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm

Best of luck.


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> if all other methods fail, i would say try this (though it might not be the best advice lol):
> 
> i would say try the EI dosing method coupled with excel. even if it turns brown, melts, ignore it for 1-2 weeks AS LONG AS new healthy leaves keep spurting out. sometimes when HC melts/turns brown BUT keeps growing new healthy leaves, it would kind of "replace itself" entirely with new leaves and new growth will start...kinda like shedding fur or something i guess lol


for me i think its a different case, when the leaves turn brown, cherry shrimps eat them and the leaves "disappear", and the browning occurs on the new leaves


----------



## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> Ahh okay, well given you have what, 5 wpg compact florescent and pressurized Co2? You probably need to start running a proper dosing regime. You can do this using seachem products or it is much cheaper to get everything from a hydroponics place and start dosing dry or a home maid mix.
> 
> Seachem have a calculator online. For dry ferts, look at this..
> http://www.rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm
> 
> Best of luck.


i am using 23W CFL and diy co2 which runs 2bps and they should be fine because the HC was growing nice for the last 3weeks.


----------



## alexxa

do you guys think i should wait few more days before doing anything?


----------



## Rmwbrown

yes, and no. Once you get what you need to dose properly, you should reset the tank with a 50% water change. Add something like Seachem Equlibirum if your using RO water. Then you should start a proper dosing regiment. Nitrogen, Potassium, Phosphates on the first day. Repeat every other day and on two of the off days dose trace. I wouldn't worry about the excel unless you're having algae problems or you need it to supplement the DIY Co2.

Ditch the plant grow.


----------



## alexxa

any idea of how much kno3 is? if it is more than $6 then i think i will just get the seachem nitrogen, coz i am those lazy ppl who dont like to mix stuff


----------



## iBetta

agreed with Rmwbrown . i use excel in the beginning because it's like a backup and safety measure to boost the carbon intake for my HC. if my c02 were ever low or i have to change it, then i would double my excel. i still dosed some excel every two for a month though, for algae control, especially to avoid those pesky hair algae and to make sure my HC takes up roots and so forth


----------



## iBetta

i gotta say EI dosing pretty much saves everything if you have the proper c02 and lighting conditions. i have not ever seen any plants browning from EI O:


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> i gotta say EI dosing pretty much saves everything if you have the proper c02 and lighting conditions. i have not ever seen any plants browning from EI O:


yea but the problem is that i think i carelessly added too much kh2po4, if thats the case browning should stop within a few days


----------



## iBetta

but why would an excess cause browning? the plants should take whatever amt they need, and if it's in excess, it shoulnt bother them right? unless if becomes toxic or something in high concentrations


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> but why would an excess cause browning? the plants should take whatever amt they need, and if it's in excess, it shoulnt bother them right? unless if becomes toxic or something in high concentrations


i just went to ask frank and he said it shouldn't be because of excess nutrients kill HC since the shrimps are still alive. so its probably no3 problem. Gotta go get some no3 tmr.


----------



## iBetta

did you go to frank's yesterday at like 6pm-ish perhaps?


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> did you go to frank's yesterday at like 6pm-ish perhaps?


no i just went there 2hours ago


----------



## iBetta

oh never mind then!


----------



## alexxa

i am scared that the HC will be all dead before i get no3


----------



## iBetta

when will you be getting it?


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> when will you be getting it?


tomorrow, but i keep on seeing more and more dying


----------



## iBetta

i dont know what advice to give you anymore, i'm sorry . maybe 50% WC and excel? I hope your tank will be ok! did you check other forums that talk about HC keeping? there are quite a few


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> i dont know what advice to give you anymore, i'm sorry . maybe 50% WC and excel? I hope your tank will be ok! did you check other forums that talk about HC keeping? there are quite a few


thank you anyway. I think it is mostly nitrogen problem. Do you keep any fishes in ur tank?


----------



## iBetta

yes i have some rasboras and shrimps that serve for my nitrate levels


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> yes i have some rasboras and shrimps that serve for my nitrate levels


oh thats why


----------



## iBetta

btw alexxa, are you still selling your two japanese marimo? I dont want to sound rude, but how do you know they are from Hokkaido? 

Reason is I came across lots of sellers selling "fake" marimos . and those are not even the java moss ones XD. thanks! 

ps. did you buy those 2 from "mari mari marimo" company perhaps?

thanks!


----------



## alexxa

iBetta said:


> btw alexxa, are you still selling your two japanese marimo? I dont want to sound rude, but how do you know they are from Hokkaido?
> 
> Reason is I came across lots of sellers selling "fake" marimos . and those are not even the java moss ones XD. thanks!
> 
> ps. did you buy those 2 from "mari mari marimo" company perhaps?
> 
> thanks!


on the package it says the origin is hokkaido. They are sold btw.
its actually quite easy to distinguish real and fake marimo


----------



## coldmantis

iBetta said:


> yes i have some rasboras and shrimps that serve for my nitrate levels


I'm doing the same thing but it didn't work slimy green hair algae took over, it's the one that igor grew as an algae wall. time to redo the tank........


----------



## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I'm doing the same thing but it didn't work slimy green hair algae took over, it's the one that igor grew as an algae wall. time to redo the tank........


any photo? you are getting the string algae?


----------



## coldmantis

not string algae it's slimy green algae, do a search for igor post about growing algae wall for his shrimp. it's the same algae as his. 2 possible causes for this. I only have my co2 on from 6pm to 12am, I would love to have it on from 3pm to 12am but my gf always forget to turn it on for me. Time to invest in a solenoid. second I'm only dosing k2s04 and kh2p04, because I have fire red shrimps in there and don't want to dose kn03(shrimp killer/breeding stopper) or mgs04(our water is hard enough no need to make it harder), time to go back to the old recipe. I will post the new scape in my thread.


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## alexxa

can u give me the link? searched but i am not sure where is that


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## iBetta

Oh no! just when i saved enough to get them!  arg, please tell me again next time if you are selling some.

as for the links, i just googled "HC cuba care", "HC cuba browning" etc, which yields sites like:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/60411-hemianthus-cuba-hc-yellowing-browning-leafs.html

the website aquaticcentral's got some good forums too on HC .


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> Oh no! just when i saved enough to get them!  arg, please tell me again next time if you are selling some.
> 
> as for the links, i just googled "HC cuba care", "HC cuba browning" etc, which yields sites like:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/60411-hemianthus-cuba-hc-yellowing-browning-leafs.html
> 
> the website aquaticcentral's got some good forums too on HC .


ok i will tell u the next time i am selling
thanks for the link i think i will do a 40% water tmr and add seachem nitrogen and flourish. Wish that will help


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## iBetta

coldmantis: i recently added a layer of duckweed to control algae (because i did have a little even after i stopped EI dosing). but after a week with the duckweed and after i stopped EI dosing (its been 2-3 weeks?). the alga is coming back less and less . its that green algae you get on your glass. so they come back after each water change since i scrape them. i started with 80% of my side glass covered but now every week i get <20%  covered with algae, and they're growing less and less


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## iBetta

alexxa: i will always recommend excel too . since its' like my favourite friend now! lol
thanks !


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## alexxa

just bought a bottle of no3 from big al's, hope the HC carpet will grow nice again


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## iBetta

hope it will go well!  keep us updated!


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## alexxa

just did a trim on the DHG and cleared some string algae


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## Rmwbrown

I would hope you also bought Trace, Potassium and Phosphate as well. Now that you get your Nitrogen up, you will be short on the rest. When they bottom out and your going to get algae. This is an all or nothing kind of thing..


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## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> I would hope you also bought Trace, Potassium and Phosphate as well. Now that you get your Nitrogen up, you will be short on the rest. When they bottom out and your going to get algae. This is an all or nothing kind of thing..


i hv some dry kh2po4 and flourish comprehensive. I followed here and made a kh2po4 solution, how much do i add everyweek?
http://www.rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm


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## Rmwbrown

Its a little difficult to mix and match systems...either you stick with Seachem or do EI (with a few exceptions like Trace and GH booster). If you EI dose kh2po4 you will bottom out the Seachem recommended dosage of Nitrogen. 
More over, if you try and ei dose with Seachem Nitrogen you will nuke your shrimp.

You can certianly try, but just go easy and try not to overdose. You can also use this link.. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html

But like I said, under no circumstances should you try to use Seachem Nitrogen to reach the 10-30ppm. In fact, I would ease your way up and cut it off at five... shrimp people would know better though.. mine are just there to clean up.


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## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> Its a little difficult to mix and match systems...either you stick with Seachem or do EI (with a few exceptions like Trace and GH booster). If you EI dose kh2po4 you will bottom out the Seachem recommended dosage of Nitrogen.
> More over, if you try and ei dose with Seachem Nitrogen you will nuke your shrimp.
> 
> You can certianly try, but just go easy and try not to overdose. You can also use this link.. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html
> 
> But like I said, under no circumstances should you try to use Seachem Nitrogen to reach the 10-30ppm. In fact, I would ease your way up and cut it off at five... shrimp people would know better though.. mine are just there to clean up.


wt if i follow seachem method but i use my kh2po4? coz seachem makes their flourish phosphorus with kh2po4 also


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## Rmwbrown

That could work, the Seachem website should list how much 1ml raises the ppm. Rex Griggs does the same for EI dosing on his site. You could correlate the two.


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## alexxa

i calculated 0.16ml which is like 2-3 drops for a plastic pipette. Thank you.


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## alexxa

how long does it take for the HC to stop browning?1week?


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## alexxa

after adding some fert last night, i see much more string algae now. Wt should i do?


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## iBetta

usually, when they get enough nutrients they should stop browning . alexxa, are you using excel?


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> usually, when they get enough nutrients they should stop browning . alexxa, are you using excel?


yes i add 0.5ml everyday morning


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## alexxa

i am scared that the string algae will overtake the tank before the HC starts to grow again


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## iBetta

i would say just remove the shrimps for now and put them into a temporary tank. start following an Ei-like regime in dosing and increase your excel double/triple everyday . thats the only option i can think of. or try to put anything in there that could outcompete algal growth like those gigantic floating plants....


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## alexxa

i dun think excel kill those algae


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## alexxa

btw i will try that again tmr, just spray all 0.5ml of excel on the DHG


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## iBetta

oh its on your DHG (dwarf hair grass?). for me, i had a similar problem with my other tank where my hair grass was just overun by hair algae....i bought like 10-15 yamato and it was all cleared in like 1-2 days....my tank was a 5-6g i believe


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## iBetta

do you have a bigger planted tank? because if you dont like those yamatos getting too big, you can just put them into your bigger tank after they're done their jobs . or you can just sell them. i can take those from you with pleasure XD


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## alexxa

where did you get ur yamato? coz $2 each is a bit expensive for me


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## iBetta

I always go to franks . best deals ever!


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## alexxa

so u spent $20 for yamato?


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## iBetta

i forgot how muhc it was in total but he gives me discounts if i buy lots so i dont think it was really $2/each. sometimes, he had sales too . well for your tank size, i would say five is enough


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## alexxa

i have 1 amano in the tank now but it doesn't eat that type of algae


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## alexxa

should i do water change or just let it go?


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## alexxa

btw toothbrush works quite well with this algae


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## alexxa

anyone have any idea? the HC are stilling browing while the algae starts to develop more and more


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## Fergus

Has the issue of water movement come up yet?


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## alexxa

Fergus said:


> Has the issue of water movement come up yet?


i am using eden 501 for this 12" cube, so it should be ok.


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## alexxa

still seeing more and more leaves are browning everyday
is it because there is a time delay for the HC?


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## iBetta

check this out alexxa, this should help with you HC as well 

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/plan...ts-anubias-dissolving-dwarf-baby-tears-16111/


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## iBetta

actually alexxa i forgot to tell you that my HC has started browning a little too (like 30% of my total HC) this past week. i started Ei again and it seemed to have lessened....by that i mean they have stopped browning and new growth has spurted and started to cover and take over the browned old leaves. from the picture from the link above, seems like we both have N deficiency O:


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> actually alexxa i forgot to tell you that my HC has started browning a little too (like 30% of my total HC) this past week. i started Ei again and it seemed to have lessened....by that i mean they have stopped browning and new growth has spurted and started to cover and take over the browned old leaves. from the picture from the link above, seems like we both have N deficiency O:


i am following the seachem method now, coz i am scared that using EI i will get more and more algae due to overdosing.


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## iBetta

ok good luck! ya i get some green algae on my glass every week (i clean it off during my WC) but its been coming back less and less. my amano (just one gigantic one and some formosae) and my duckweed keep it in check . i presume that my HC (because i just have HC and some HG in there) are too slowing-growing to outcompete my algae as of now. though they are coming back quite strongly in growth after i started EI again


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## iBetta

btw, ever interested in trading a large patch of healthy HC for 1-2 mini jap marimos? i shouldve gotten them from you last time T.T. im saving money to get some cherries and rasaboras from frank this week! XD


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## alexxa

btw the normal leaves are growing while there are some that are browning.
so you dont see any more new developed brown leaves?


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## iBetta

nope, the leaves that are brown are the old ones (which are denoted from the link above from N deficiency). so the browning seemed to have stopped (at least slowed down a lot) because i am seeing lots of new green leaves growing and starting to cover up/replace the old brown ones after i started EI again...guess i gotta keep EI dosing now....-_-


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## alexxa

when did you start Ei method? last week when?


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## iBetta

just 2 days ago actually.....


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> just 2 days ago actually.....


wow u already see the effect of the treatment after two days? thats good


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## alexxa

btw ibetta do you see any more old leaves turning brown?
my new leaves are ok but i still see old leaves are turning brown


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## iBetta

i think mine are ok now, im lots of new growth. so even if some old ones are still turning brown, i might be tricked into thinking they've stopped because so many new leaves are coming out. its like that "replacement process" i was talking about


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## alexxa

so now after a week of dosing fert, i see new growth of the HC, but there seems to be more stringy algae.


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## alexxa

and also i hv an explosion of thread/ hair algae in my other tank, should i continue to dose fert for it? coz more algae comes after dosing.


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## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> and also i hv an explosion of thread/ hair algae in my other tank, should i continue to dose fert for it? coz more algae comes after dosing.


do you have co2 or excel on the other tanks, when I was growing cuba in a small tank with fertz and excel it only turn a little yellow never got algae. but I was only dosing very little a drop a day of macro/micro should of dose probably 3 drops per day because I got blue/green algae due to 0 nitrates.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> do you have co2 or excel on the other tanks, when I was growing cuba in a small tank with fertz and excel it only turn a little yellow never got algae. but I was only dosing very little a drop a day of macro/micro should of dose probably 3 drops per day because I got blue/green algae due to 0 nitrates.


yes i have co2 in the other tank which i grow my glosso in, i add the recommended dose of seachem twice a week


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## Will

I had a thread algae explosion after overdosing Fluorish Iron, could that be happening?


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## alexxa

iwhen i was removing some string algae, i also found 2 tiny snails in my tank, and i think thats y i see floating hc leaves everyday
so i now have 3 problems:
1) boom of stringy algae
2) cloudy water
3) snails


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## Rmwbrown

Are you absolutely sure you're at 30 ppm Co2? Moreover, are you sure the dosing in correct. In a hi tech tank, one missed/miscalculated day of dosing in an unstable tank can make an noticeable difference. 

I think you should also consider adding a stem plant or two to help stabilize the tank while your getting things set up. Not only is high tech tank the most difficult set up, doing an iwagumi compounds this. Many do what i have suggested above to get over the initial growing pains.


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## alexxa

i am not sure if i have 30ppm co2, but i have 1bp2s rate and i add 0.6ml excel everyday.


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## coldmantis

your making it more complicated then it should be,do it in steps
do you have enought lights
no - get more light
yes- get co2
is your co2 at 30ppm
no - up your co2
yes - get fertz
are you getting algae after using fertz
no - your good to go just maintain everything and keep it from fluctuating
yes - adjust your fertz, check co2, check your lights.


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## alexxa

ok thank you i will bump up the co2


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## ubr0ke

if your confused about ei using seachem ferts or many other pre-mixed including ada..heres a calculator to make it easy. It also has many other features...check them out.

http://calc.petalphile.com/


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## alexxa

ok thx.
does SAE eat stringy algae?


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## ubr0ke

i have no idea..never kept sae's..or had stringy algae..


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## ubr0ke

it seems like this thread just goes in circles..you do know what the definition of insanity is, right..


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## Will

ubr0ke said:


> it seems like this thread just goes in circles..you do know what the definition of insanity is, right..


I had a couple Garra sp. that did this.


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## alexxa

so now the tank has been cycled for 1.5month and the water is still cloudy. I tried to use a filter from that other tank last night and the water cleared up a bit overnight, but the water turned back to cloudy now. 
Is there anything i can do right now?


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## alexxa

just an update for my tank. Did a 80% wc to clear up the yellow + cloudy water, then added 0.5ml flourish Kno3 , 0.5ml flourish micro, 3.5ml excel, 0.16ml kh2po4
co2 rate is 1bubble per 2.5secs (I already added more yeast, but i think i will have to wait a while before they start producing co2)
also cleaned the filter and pulled out some string algae.


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## coldmantis

wait your using diy co2 yeast+sugar, lol no wonder you have so much algae problems. one 1 bubble per 2.5 is way too little co2, so when you dose your tank the plants don't grow fast enough to intake the nutrients your dosing, diy co2 is inconsistent, most important thing about a planted tank is consistency lights, co2, ferts stuff you can control, and you can't control co2 when it's diy, for example I also have massive algae problems too on my cube even with pressurized co2 why? becuase I turn my co2 off at night, and it gets turn on(sometimes not at all) when my gf remembers to.... the next day. only thing I can do about this is get a solenoid so I don't have to depend on my gf to turn it on the same time everyday which never happens.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> wait your using diy co2 yeast+sugar, lol no wonder you have so much algae problems. one 1 bubble per 2.5 is way too little co2, so when you dose your tank the plants don't grow fast enough to intake the nutrients your dosing, diy co2 is inconsistent, most important thing about a planted tank is consistency lights, co2, ferts stuff you can control, and you can't control co2 when it's diy, for example I also have massive algae problems too on my cube even with pressurized co2 why? becuase I turn my co2 off at night, and it gets turn on(sometimes not at all) when my gf remembers to.... the next day. only thing I can do about this is get a solenoid so I don't have to depend on my gf to turn it on the same time everyday which never happens.


yea thats y i am thinking of buying a new asa adaptor for my paintball bottle.
btw will excel help to reduce co2 inconsistent problem?


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## coldmantis

I guess if you can figure out the mathematical equation on how much ml of excel to ppm of co2, after you figure out how much ppm of co2 your diy co2 has.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> I guess if you can figure out the mathematical equation on how much ml of excel to ppm of co2, after you figure out how much ppm of co2 your diy co2 has.


oh lol i think i have to review my chemistry for that.
but right now i just add the recommended daily dose which is ~0.5ml for my tank


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## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> oh lol i think i have to review my chemistry for that.
> but right now i just add the recommended daily dose which is ~0.5ml for my tank


you sure it's not .75ml per day, I always dose 1ml per 10g so 7.5g cube would be .75ml. I had a massive string algae, I dumped in 5 amanos big ones, 1 large sae, and 5 ottos, algae gone in 2days.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> you sure it's not .75ml per day, I always dose 1ml per 10g so 7.5g cube would be .75ml. I had a massive string algae, I dumped in 5 amanos big ones, 1 large sae, and 5 ottos, algae gone in 2days.


oh thx then i will dose 0.75ml everyday.
currently i have 2 amanos and 1 sae, i will see if the sae eats string algae or not


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## alexxa

ok i changed the yeast-sugar solution last night and now i get 1bps which is good
but i also notice that almost half of my HC's leaves are yellow


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## Rmwbrown

My goodness.. you are using DIY Co2? You can scratch pretty much any advice I gave you.


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## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> My goodness.. you are using DIY Co2? You can scratch pretty much any advice I gave you.


um yea i dont have money for a presurrized co2 setup...
so i am thinking of getting an asa adaptor for my paintball tank..


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## coldmantis

alexxa said:


> um yea i dont have money for a presurrized co2 setup...
> so i am thinking of getting an asa adaptor for my paintball tank..


do this, get 2 2liter bottles and a plastic T and make the mix a week apart, it will give you more consistency that way, When I did diy co2, I had 4 bottles, 3 2liter coke bottles and a 2.5 gallon gas jug!!! all chain together for my 45 gallon and it was still not enough.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> do this, get 2 2liter bottles and a plastic T and make the mix a week apart, it will give you more consistency that way, When I did diy co2, I had 4 bottles, 3 2liter coke bottles and a 2.5 gallon gas jug!!! all chain together for my 45 gallon and it was still not enough.


yep thats wt i am doing right now
the left bottle was made 1 week ago and the right one was made yesterday


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## ubr0ke

diy co2....boooooooo
work of advice..use champagne yeast not bakers yeast...its more consistent and lasts longer....the cost is quite a bit more tho..

only dose kh2po4 every second week..this will help with your co2 issues..I only recommend this with diy co2 not pressurized..its easier to add co2 with pressurized then to limit phosphates but in your case it may work..


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## cold

question!
where did you get those 4 grey things you have put on the bottle caps??? please let me know...my silicon always gets lose...


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## alexxa

cold said:


> question!
> where did you get those 4 grey things you have put on the bottle caps??? please let me know...my silicon always gets lose...


i got them from a chinese online shopping site when i was in hong kong 
they aren't that good tho, i need to use telfon tape so that they dont leak.


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## alexxa

ubr0ke said:


> diy co2....boooooooo
> work of advice..use champagne yeast not bakers yeast...its more consistent and lasts longer....the cost is quite a bit more tho..
> 
> only dose kh2po4 every second week..this will help with your co2 issues..I only recommend this with diy co2 not pressurized..its easier to add co2 with pressurized then to limit phosphates but in your case it may work..


okay thank you for your advice.
but where can i get champagne yeast?


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## coldmantis

the way you did the diy is kind of weird, you have 2 holes on the cap for some reason, more holes equals more chances it will leak. you should have 1 hole each cap to a T line and that T line goes to a bubble counter then to your tank, use super glue on the caps to stop all leaks.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> the way you did the diy is kind of weird, you have 2 holes on the cap for some reason, more holes equals more chances it will leak. you should have 1 hole each cap to a T line and that T line goes to a bubble counter then to your tank, use super glue on the caps to stop all leaks.


okay i will do that next time, but i am sure that there is no leak right now as i tested many times


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## alexxa

so now i dont see the algae growing anymore, some of them even start to turn brown and die
thank you everyone


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## ubr0ke

you can buy champagne yeast at wine making stores..or home brewery type store...

there is lots in and around toronto.


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## alexxa

the bubble rate decreases so quickly, its now 1 bubble per 1.7 seconds
i think i have to go with paintball setup or use champagne yeast


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## alexxa

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ASA-Paintbal...ltDomain_0&hash=item5646983fc6#ht_2040wt_1353
this one will work with the watts a41 right?


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## alexxa

a little update...
the bubble rate has came down to 1 bubble per 2 secs so i change the other bottle, but it takes a while for it to bump back up to 1bps. Now the string algaes grow like crazy because of lack of co2.
ordered an asa adaptor on ebay. Hope that it arrives soon.


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## Will

alexxa said:


> a little update...
> the bubble rate has came down to 1 bubble per 2 secs so i change the other bottle, but it takes a while for it to bump back up to 1bps. Now the string algaes grow like crazy because of lack of co2.
> ordered an asa adaptor on ebay. Hope that it arrives soon.


Yeah, it's just not possible to maintain a consistent and constant co2 rate with Sugar and Yeast setups.


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## iBetta

alexxa, i will honestly keep suggesting to keep dosing (and increase it) excel for now while you wait for your CO2 (whether DIY or pressurized). and keep dosing even if you have your C02. it will seriously help A LOT. once i started overdosing excel as treatment, and maintain dosing it with the supposed amount everyday, i have no more bba, hair algae or the sort.


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## iBetta

with that said, i still have some green algae, but i know its because im using DIY C02 and because of my light. its good food for my shrimps and ottos, but as long as the nasty algae like hair algae are gone im content


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## alexxa

yea i am dosing 1ml excel everyday now, maybe i should increase that.


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## iBetta

alexxa said:


> yea i am dosing 1ml excel everyday now, maybe i should increase that.


yep yep, try to increase it bit by bit to see if there's any effect. when u're waiting for your C02 to kick in, double that until your C02 starts then revert to your original amount


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## alexxa

an update for my tank. The amount of string algae is to a point that manual removal is impossible. I know that doing 80% wc + high co2 will kill them because i tried before, but i still hv to wait until i get my asa adaptor


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## alexxa

yesterday i did a 70% change and removed most of the string algae, and then added 3ml of excel, 0.4ml Kno3, 0.5ml micros, 0.16Kh2po4. But today i see some of the HC turned dark brown color. I really dunno what caused them to die
bubble rate is 1bps.


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## coldmantis

make it easier on yourself, just go out buy like 3 small SAE and dont' feed the tank it will be gone in 3 days, I had way more then you and the 2 SAE took care of it in no time.


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## Rmwbrown

Not to sound like a jerk or anything but you may want to think about breaking down this tank for a week or so, reading over the stickie material on planted tanks and the posts that every has listed here, and then make a clean start. You have made so many changes now, I'm not sure how you are keeping track of what is going on. 

I agree with the previous post, you are making this hard on yourself without a cleaning crew in place. I would go with Amano shrimp. Once they clean up every other algae, this will start to take down the hair algae. I usually use 1 for every two gallons if not more. I have 15 in a 25 gallon, 32 in a 50 gallon, and my wife keeps 5 in a 7 gallon just to give you an idea.


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## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> Not to sound like a jerk or anything but you may want to think about breaking down this tank for a week or so, reading over the stickie material on planted tanks and the posts that every has listed here, and then make a clean start. You have made so many changes now, I'm not sure how you are keeping track of what is going on.
> 
> I agree with the previous post, you are making this hard on yourself without a cleaning crew in place. I would go with Amano shrimp. Once they clean up every other algae, this will start to take down the hair algae. I usually use 1 for every two gallons if not more. I have 15 in a 25 gallon, 32 in a 50 gallon, and my wife keeps 5 in a 7 gallon just to give you an idea.


what you mean by breaking down the tank for a week?
if i do that wouldn't the HC die?


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## Rmwbrown

Yes, what I'm suggesting is a clean start. Change out all the water, let the substrate dry out and all the algae die off, and then start again from scratch. Think about what you have learned thus far, get everything together that you need, and then put a plan together.


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## alexxa

Rmwbrown said:


> Yes, what I'm suggesting is a clean start. Change out all the water, let the substrate dry out and all the algae die off, and then start again from scratch. Think about what you have learned thus far, get everything together that you need, and then put a plan together.


Thank you for your suggestion, but now most of the string algae seems to be gone.


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## alexxa

I think i dont hv to redo the tank again
got my asa adaptor off ebay and testing the paintball system now and it is keeping 1bps steadily


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## alexxa

just an update
this is only little hair algae and the HC are recovering.
Everything seems good.


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## coldmantis

how old is your bulbs, I find that cfl's on a planted tank after around 6-8 months you start getting weird algae even though you haven't changed your water conditions, try changing your bulb remove as much hair algae as possible and see if it comes back. It's been around 2.5 weeks since I cleaned out the hair algae and changed bulbs on my cube and algae hasn't come back yet.


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## alexxa

coldmantis said:


> how old is your bulbs, I find that cfl's on a planted tank after around 6-8 months you start getting weird algae even though you haven't changed your water conditions, try changing your bulb remove as much hair algae as possible and see if it comes back. It's been around 2.5 weeks since I cleaned out the hair algae and changed bulbs on my cube and algae hasn't come back yet.


i started using it in june.
btw after refilling my paintball tank it seems like it is producing 1bps without floating which is good.


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## iBetta

ah, its finally coming along nicely . i see runners everywhere . if you ever want more HC, i can trade you the rest that I have for some microworms .


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## alexxa

iBetta said:


> ah, its finally coming along nicely . i see runners everywhere . if you ever want more HC, i can trade you the rest that I have for some microworms .


i think i have enough of them for now, thx anyways


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## alexxa

my paintball co2's bubble rate is floating now. It was good until last night it slows down few milliseconds so i dumped it in the water and found a leak. I immediately fixed it and set it to 1bps. Then i did 4 more leak tests and they were all good, no leak. This morning when i woke up it slowed down to 1bp4s. I saw people posting that adjusting the tightness of the needle valve nut will solve the problem, is that true?


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## alexxa

paintball problem seems to be fixed. Will rescape the tank tmr and remove dead plants and algae


----------

