# Have an idea in regards to dirt tanks.



## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Hey everyone, I haven't read Diana Walstads' book yet, and I too am chomping at the bit to set up my 20g long as a dirt tank. Does the book or anyone mention trying to use something between the layers (dirt / capping substance to prevent the mess from disturbing the dirt when uprooting/ moving plants) similar to the material that is used in a garden. - the black fabric to prevent weeds from rooting. Of course this would make it difficult for our aquarium plants to root into the dirt, unless we put some slashes in the material..... or I was also toying with the idea of using the coconut mats that are sold for lizards etc. (not sure of the effect it may have on parameters???) Any ideas or comments. Also thinking about doing the SA touch on it and using actual palm leaves in the dirt. I believe that is one of the trees that grow along the rivers, and would naturally fall into the stream beds. They may help aerate the substrate too, along with adding to the humus.....??


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## tominizer (Nov 5, 2011)

I just used a layer of gravel from big ALS that keep the soil in place.


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## theeyrietrainer (Dec 9, 2010)

The Diana Walstaad method doesn't necessarily touch upon adding layers to keep the soil intact and from messing into the water. It only mentions to adding a layer of gravel on top of the soil as to help aerate the roots and provide oxygen for the aerobic bacteria.


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## bigfish (Jun 10, 2011)

does that mean u're not supposed to have the roots planted into the soil, but the gravel that's above the soil?



theeyrietrainer said:


> The Diana Walstaad method doesn't necessarily touch upon adding layers to keep the soil intact and from messing into the water. It only mentions to adding a layer of gravel on top of the soil as to help aerate the roots and provide oxygen for the aerobic bacteria.


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## theeyrietrainer (Dec 9, 2010)

Well, I usually plant my plants in the gravel and their roots are usually long enough to reach the soil but those that aren't will usually send roots down into the soil. However, I don't see why you can't directly plant your plants into the soil but it also depends on if you have a gravel layer above it. If the plant is long enough to forego the first layer, then I'm sure it'll be fine to plant it into the soil rather than the gravel (or any other layer you place on top of the soil)



bigfish said:


> does that mean u're not supposed to have the roots planted into the soil, but the gravel that's above the soil?


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

I tried putting a layer of dry peat moss (about half a centimeter) below my gravel when I set up the tank. I covered the peat moss with a layer of Paper towels to keep it in place before I added the gravel on top. Worked quite well. The plants grew like crazy and when the paper towels got wet and the roots had no trouble going through them. Naturally the water still turned brown after a day or two but a number of water changes reduced the colour quite well.

Lee


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## jesse (Aug 11, 2011)

I have a 5 gallon bucket of eco-complete you can use to cap?


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Lee, wouldn't the peat moss also change the ph of the water to more acidic? Also, when possibly uprooting and moving plants, wouldn't peat be even messier than the soil?


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

peat moss lowers the PH by very little. if you Ph is around 7.6 then it will be around the 7-7.2 mark it doesn't lower it a lot like ADA, Fluval or Netlea


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

So then what about the coconut fibre mats that I saw at pet store??? Do they change the ph much?


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

im currrently testing this... i have (3) 70+ gallon dirted tanks

1 - i capped with 2" sand
2 - i capped with just gravel
3 - soil - thin layer of sand - then ada substrate

tanks 1 and 3 work the best.
tank 1 is good as long as your not uprooting plants all the time
and tank 3 is amazingly clear as absolutely no dirt has broken through the 2 layer cap

tank 2 gives me the most trouble but i also made the mistake of rescaping twice... if i hadn't done that i believe i wouldve had less mess...

i say, if your going dirt, expect it to get dirty!


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I use coir fibre [ aka coconut fibre] for my terrestrial plants, and have been for at least ten years. It does not do anything to soil ph, unlike peat,which does acidify soil, to some degree. Coir is believed to be PH neutral. I would be quite surprised if it did much to water PH either. It is likely to last a long time, because it is loaded with lignins. And I can guarantee one thing it will do. It will leach an enormous amount of very dark colour into the water for quite a long time, probably for longer than unsoaked driftwood would.

If you're after the Amazon look that might be a good thing.. if not, well, you'll be filtering it out for ages. If you want to try it, you can buy it by the yard in sheets at Sheridan nurseries and they'll be getting their stock in soon, if it's not there already. Probably cheaper that way than the stuff sold for reptiles.


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Fishfur, can we not just boil the crap out of the coir to eliminate most of the tannins? (assuming that is what is turning water dark). And yes, I was toying with the idea of somewhat softer water for my german rams. But if bought from a nursery, is there a possibility of it being treated with any fungicides, or chemicals. That would be my concern.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Yes, I'd think boiling it would probably do the trick though it might take longer than wood. Mind, I've never TRIED to get the colour out.. I just know that every pot I've used it in for plants is still leaching very dark brown water after, in some cases, several years ! Peat does not leach colour anywhere near as long as coir seems to.

You would have to ask Sheridan to be sure the stuff they sell is not treated with anything., but to the best of my knowledge it is not. It is sold for making custom container linings with, and most people don't want to use stuff that's got chemicals in it. In fact, because it has such a high lignin content, coir does not need to be treated to prevent it from rotting. It lasts a VERY long time, all on its own. But certainly I'd ask, to be sure. 

The nice thing about buying it by the yard is that you would be able to use just one piece for a whole tank bottom. I think it's wide enough that you'd likely get two pieces out of a length that are wide enough for most tanks. If memory serves, I 'think' it is a yard wide, but don't quote me on that. Would depend how wide the tank is too, of course.

There was another product somewhat similar to the coir blanket.. just remembered it, but it was at Lee Valley and I have not seen their catalogue yet to know if they have it this year. It is a 'fabric' of sorts, made of natural fibre from a plant, no chemicals in it. Also meant for lining wire basket frames or other containers, but it handles water differently than coir does and it is much thinner than a coir blanket. Less than a quarter inch thick, vs the coir at maybe 3/4 inch thick. Coir just absorbs water, this Lee Valley stuff passes both water and air through its fibre, but also holds water in. Probably would keep your dirt from migrating better than the coir would, maybe ?

I'd have to go look it up again to refresh my brain on how they said it works. The bonus using it for plants is that the baskets don't dry out as quickly as with coir liners, the downside is it costs more. But it's very light and easier to cut than the coir, and smoother too. Sort of looks like felt, though it isn't. I will try to find out if Lee Valley still stocks it, if you want to look at it.


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

That's great thanks, but I am wondering, if that fabric were to be used, would it prevent the soil from being furnished with the waste/ammonia from the fish/plants, and also would it prevent the soil from providing nutrient to the plants and water. Would it be more of a barrier and hold in the gases? [sorry just re-read your post & missed "air and water pass thru] With the coir, at least it is porous so stuff (including the gasses) can pass thru it and also, the plant roots can spread thru it and into the soil, and possibly still permit runners thru it too. With the coir being 3/4" thick (haven't actually seen it myself), there may be the possibility of slicing it (probably a big headache!!!) to make it thinner. I had a really weird (lol) thought about pectin. The stuff we use to make jams, capped with sand and then gravel .... hmmmm. It would probably dissolve.??? A thin layer of okra (very slimy)??? Sorry.... just rambling...lol


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Pectin ? You are rambling !! .. it would gel at first but then it would dissolve and likely make a gawd awful mess. Ever seen what happens if you leave a layer of water on jelly in a jar ? Icky ! But you can get that water absorbing polymer.. it's supposed to be quite innocuous.. though I don't know of anyone who has used it with fish ! It sure holds water though.. and keeps it.. for awhile they were selling little cups of it, solid, that you were supposed to use to root cuttings.. but it really didn't work because the minute you cut the seal to put a cutting in it would begin to dry out.

You would have a HELL of a time slicing the coir into thinner layers.. I've tried that myself. You get a very lumpy result. And I honestly don't know if roots would penetrate that stuff from Lee Valley.. But I am tired and going to bed. I will look it up tomorrow and see what the story is on it if I can. I actually have a sheet of it, I was going to use to build a moist pole for climbing vines. Coir was too thick and didn't hold enough water inside to work, so I figured this other stuff would do the trick. Just haven't done it yet. Catch you tomorrow sometime if I can find any info on it, ok ?


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

macKRAZY said:


> im currrently testing this... i have (3) 70+ gallon dirted tanks
> 
> 1 - i capped with 2" sand
> 2 - i capped with just gravel
> ...


couldn't you get same result for your 2nd tank if you had a thin layer of play sand and then gravel?


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## macKRAZY (Feb 15, 2012)

GAT said:


> couldn't you get same result for your 2nd tank if you had a thin layer of play sand and then gravel?


yes, i would definitely get the same result but i tested 3 different caps just to see how my plants would grow, how the roots turn out and maintenance...

water clarity was only an issue from the beginning as im diligent with water changes... my tiger barbs have a nice clear tank now! Although uprooting plants/rescaping creates cloudiness in that tank compared to the other 2

its all about having fun!


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I found that other stuff.. Lee Valley still carries it. It is called Kenaf, made from the bark and wood of a member of the Hibiscus family. Nothing added to it that I can tell, and it is certainly easier to handle than the coir blanket is. It holds water better than coir, so it makes for slower drying out in a basket situation.

They sell it as a piece, more than large enough for a good size tank.. the exact measurments are in the online catalogue. It is naturally a quite pale greyish colour so it would not likely leach any colour, or very, very little, into water.

Might be worth looking at. If you want, I could give you a little piece from the chunk of it I have to test out. I would guess that you would likely have to make slits in it to plant things.. it is fairly dense, but so is the coir. I think roots would eventually penetrate it, especially under water where it would be softer from being saturated always, but it might take some time. As it is made from wood and bark, I'd expect it to have a fair bit of lignin, but probably not so much as coir does. Lignin is good, it makes it last longer before it would decompose. Coir is very slow to decompose, I'd expect Kenaf to last well, but not as long as coir would.


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Sorry been absent minded lately,,,,, thanks Fishfur for checking into that for me, that is so awesome of you to take the time, much appreciated. I will have to see it. For now, I think my dirt tank might not come to fruition.  I already have the dirt in my 20g, but I have way too many other priorities [sadly] [gotta find a home for my dog - 1 yr, shep/husky/blu heeler X] Gotta thin out my belongings, talking about moving.... lalalala... but on the other hand... my plants need to be planted before they fade away.. arrrghh! 
I am hoping that if I did do a well planned dirt scape, I wouldn't really have to move my plants; therefore wouldn't need to be too concerned. But of course that is in a perfect world. haha I am rambling again... sorry folks.. lol


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

I am hoping to go to the Reptile expo next wknd, and I will have a look at what they have there. The coir mat I saw, seemed to be somewhat porous, not too dense. But maybe my memory isn't serving me properly. I will have to see. Thanks everyone.... if you have any other suggestions, please submit.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Did you get around to dirting that tank? What cap did u end up using? Am thinking of dirting a 35 gal, so curious to know how yours turned out.


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Mlevi, I did dirt the tank, used Miracle grow 1 1/2" (too much I think - didn't measure accurately), I made it into mud and (not purposely) left it sit for about 2 weeks, then put a sprinkle of powdered red clay, and a very thin layer of coir ( coconut ) fibre under about 1 1/4 " of regular black gravel. My water ( once I finally filled the tank - ONLY 10g ) turned very dark, like tea. I did a water change, but I got dismayed and discouraged by the whole thing, when the awesome chunk of hollowed out tree branch which had originally submersed, dried up enough before I filled the tank, that it would not sink any more and kept causing problems with my plants when it floated to the top. Then I sustained a leg injury and I lost several of my fish and shrimp due to lack of ability to maintain proper conditions...... so.. it still stands uninhabited and dark, some of my plants melted and I am very discouraged. One day soon, I will do another water change, test the parameters and put something alive in it. For now it sits in waiting.  Thanks for asking. I think the coir (I did boil the heck out of it) still adds some colour to the water, and may for awhile.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Bummer about the injury.. hope you're doing better ! I know what it's like to have life get in the way of the stuff you really want to be doing instead. Maybe you could tie a rock to your driftwood until it gets wet enough to stay down, while you're waiting ? I did that with several pieces in a bucket and left them for a few weeks, and they all got waterlogged enough to stay down without help, even some fairly small pieces I wanted to use to mount ferns on.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Sorry about the injury. From what I understand, coir leaches for a long long time even when pre-treated. I hope you revive that tank soon. Am looking forward to reading about your positive results


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Speaking from my own experience, coir does leach very heavily. One good thing about it is that it has high lignin levels, which essentially means it can last a VERY long time in a wet state without rotting. But it also has loads of tannin or similar compounds which seem to be very persistent. I use it mainly as a potting medium, and I've got pots four and five years old that still leach water that's as dark as coffee every time I water them, while similar size pots where I used peat moss never were that dark and stopped leaching much sooner.


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