# New Aquarium at the ROM!



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Looks very cool:
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/clip316896


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

I was there a month or so ago and wasn't very impressed. 

It is jammed packed it rocks with barely any swimming space. The fish were basically swimming back and forth down the front of the viewing panel. No idea why they would design the aquascape that way. Perhaps that was the whole point so the fish are forced to be seen by people?


----------



## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

I was just at the ROM a few months ago, so just before this installation was there.

I did take a few minutes to look at the tank that was there on the biology area, which is around 200-300 gallons.

Too bad I missed seeing this tank.


----------



## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

i saw that video posted on big al's website a few months back. i then went to the ROM at the end of august and saw the tank, but i'm not too sure if it was the new tank or the existing tank.. didn't seem much different than the last time i was there a few months back, but it was in bad shape when i saw it in august.

it had diatoms and/or cyanobacteria all over the substrate, and some weird slime stuff coming off of the rock and corals that didn't seem too healthy looking. perhaps i saw it prior to a service date i'm not sure, but it's not as great as they make the video out to be with all that techy stuff (led lighting, tons of live rock and imported fish, inverts, advanced filtration, water monitors, phone relay system, etc). i remember meeting the guy who is in charge of that tank at the ROM while i was at Big Al's in North York one time (he wasn't the guy in the video btw) and asked him what he could do about cyanobacteria; he said vodka dosing is something he would absolutely endorse so i can only assume that's something he tried on that tank. i haven't tried carbon dosing myself though..


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Why the hell would you get Big Al's to setup what is supposed to be a beautiful tank.

Good god, what a mess. Even worse, the guy is spewing utter BS on national TV.

Nice setup...LED lights, sensors and....a bioball tower? What the hell? lol. Good job Big Al's.


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

marblerye said:


> i saw that video posted on big al's website a few months back. i then went to the ROM at the end of august and saw the tank, but i'm not too sure if it was the new tank or the existing tank.. didn't seem much different than the last time i was there a few months back, but it was in bad shape when i saw it in august.
> 
> it had diatoms and/or cyanobacteria all over the substrate, and some weird slime stuff coming off of the rock and corals that didn't seem too healthy looking. perhaps i saw it prior to a service date i'm not sure, but it's not as great as they make the video out to be with all that techy stuff (led lighting, tons of live rock and imported fish, inverts, advanced filtration, water monitors, phone relay system, etc). i remember meeting the guy who is in charge of that tank at the ROM while i was at Big Al's in North York one time (he wasn't the guy in the video btw) and asked him what he could do about cyanobacteria; he said vodka dosing is something he would absolutely endorse so i can only assume that's something he tried on that tank. i haven't tried carbon dosing myself though..


LOL, I guess that shows high tech and lots of money can only get you so far.


----------



## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Is that Ph stuff true that he was saying???...


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Sort of. I'm not sure he knows exactly what he is talking about.

They should be using the drip method, not changing the pH in the tank to match the water. I'm sure you know as well as I do that pH isn't the only thing you have to worry about...


----------



## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

their tank is not nice looking, but its sad to have to admit they have the nicest public aquarium in the city ....


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> their tank is not nice looking, but its sad to have to admit they have the nicest public aquarium in the city ....


Yeah, I know what you mean. I used to live in Quebec City, and they had an awesome aquarium there, complete with seals. Of course, that was like almost 20 years ago, and I was a kid, so...


----------



## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Chris S said:


> Sort of. I'm not sure he knows exactly what he is talking about.
> 
> They should be using the drip method, not changing the pH in the tank to match the water. I'm sure you know as well as I do that pH isn't the only thing you have to worry about...


Yea thats what got me too..


----------



## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

The Biodome (converted Olympic Velodrome) in Montreal has some beautiful aquariums. What is it going to take Toronto to have something like the biodome? Toronto hosting the Olympics? hahaa.


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Will Hayward said:


> The Biodome (converted Olympic Velodrome) in Montreal has some beautiful aquariums. What is it going to take Toronto to have something like the biodome? Toronto hosting the Olympics? hahaa.


Ontario place is supposed to get a make over...cross fingers that we get an aquarium there?

I still have faith that Ripley's will pull through with theirs.


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Chris S said:


> Sort of. I'm not sure he knows exactly what he is talking about.
> 
> They should be using the drip method, not changing the pH in the tank to match the water. I'm sure you know as well as I do that pH isn't the only thing you have to worry about...


Not true. As soon as the bag is opened there is a rise in pH as the CO2 dissipates. This causes a the ammonium in the bag to change to ammonia, which is the toxic form and occurs at a pH above 7. The fish need to be removed from the bag as quickly as possible after opening the bag (as stated in the video). The same applies to freshwater fish. pH isn't the issue but drip acclimation is a poor way to get fish adjusted to a new tank while they sit in a bathe of toxic ammonia.


----------



## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Sort of. I'm not sure he knows exactly what he is talking about.
> 
> They should be using the drip method, not changing the pH in the tank to match the water. I'm sure you know as well as I do that pH isn't the only thing you have to worry about...


I actually agree with the method they used, it seems like a quicker method of getting fish that are probably in oxygen depleted water, into larger volumes of water.

and we all know larger volumes of water are more stable.


----------



## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

I agree with Bill. It's the basis of transhipping. Lower the pH and bind ammonia up in ion form. The fish will survive. The less toxic ammonium ion will buy time until the pH raises and fish acclimatizes in the next few days.

Saw the tank months ago when the Dead Sea Scrolls rolled into town. Lots of fish and stuff.

The drip method is used for local transport where the wholesaler has stabilized the fish already.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Don't the trans-shippers and original packers use a binding agent in the water though? Could you not use some prime or something to treat the water as soon as you remove them from the bag?

I've always removed them into a bucket, treated the bucket with prime, then used the drip method. Ideally, for finicky fish, you would have a tank prepared to match any specified water parameters, but I would still use that method.

The impression I got from the video was that he was just matching the pH from the bags in the tank, then just releasing them - am I mistaken?


----------



## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

I _think _he was doing a quick drip, rather than one lasting hours- which would kill a fish if it were not doing well in the bag when you start.

I think that was Chris White, Manager of Oakville/Mississauga stores.


----------



## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Don't the trans-shippers and original packers use a binding agent in the water though? Could you not use some prime or something to treat the water as soon as you remove them from the bag?
> 
> I've always removed them into a bucket, treated the bucket with prime, then used the drip method. Ideally, for finicky fish, you would have a tank prepared to match any specified water parameters, but I would still use that method.
> 
> The impression I got from the video was that he was just matching the pH from the bags in the tank, then just releasing them - am I mistaken?


Yes, that's what he did. The receiving tanks were empty and he was worried about carbonic acid and a rise of pH when the bags were opened. So he matched pH in the receiving tank and dropped the fish in. Ideally, if there wasn't a concern of low pH in the bag water, you could flush the ammonia/ammonium from the shipping water (and the fish, itself) by a drip or manual transfer but that water must match the pH of the shipping bag water to avoid ammonia problems. It may take an hour or longer to do this. The receiving tank water matches the pH after this process and the tank water pH is brought up slowly. In a freshwater wholesale business you usually have a drip system that in time raises the pH slowly. With so many boxes showing up at the same time its easier to adjust the receiving tank rather than using a flush vat procedure. Outside of Prime for chloramine it's just dilute muriatic acid to lower pH.


----------



## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

It would seem, then, that he is essentially doing what I thought you should do, so I guess I owe him an apology for my earlier statement 

I've never dealt with a large shipment of saltwater fish, so I guess it is hard to comprehend from the video what exactly he was doing.


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

I'd have to agree that I believe he did the right thing by matching the ph quarantine tanks to the ph in the bags. That way you can unbox/unpack all the livestock quickly and drop the all in. Then you slowly raise the ph back up to optimum levels.


----------



## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

One thing I don't get though, is this: for ammonia to be converted into ammonium, the pH must be acidic (<7). However, those are saltwater fish, who usually live in high-pH environments. How can they stand such low pH?


----------



## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

Chris S said:


> a bioball tower? What the hell? lol. Good job Big Al's.


i thought about it and i think nearly every fish store i've been to still uses bio-balls not mainly, but as a stage in filtration. not just BA, but the smaller ones that we all came to love and trust as well.

afterall, using bio-balls to promote greater oxygen exchange and the breakdown of harmful ammonias into nitrite and nitrate with nitrate being the resulting excess organic; so long as they keep it clean and have something after the bio-ball stage to consume the nitrates i don't see why the system won't be complete. sure it may not be ideal and there is probably better ways to do it -everyone may not agree with that setup but what i'm getting at is, it _could_ work.


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

solarz said:


> One thing I don't get though, is this: for ammonia to be converted into ammonium, the pH must be acidic (<7). However, those are saltwater fish, who usually live in high-pH environments. How can they stand such low pH?


It's only temporary that they will be in low ph until they slowly raise it back up for them. Which is also why not all livestock will survive shipping.


----------



## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Chris S said:


> It would seem, then, that he is essentially doing what I thought you should do, so I guess I owe him an apology for my earlier statement
> 
> I've never dealt with a large shipment of saltwater fish, so I guess it is hard to comprehend from the video what exactly he was doing.


I'm sure you saw what I saw in the video that little fish suffering pH shock skipping at the surface. I had to question what he did as well. I bet he wished the camera never caught that... but the fish probably survived.


----------



## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

solarz said:


> One thing I don't get though, is this: for ammonia to be converted into ammonium, the pH must be acidic (<7). However, those are saltwater fish, who usually live in high-pH environments. How can they stand such low pH?


It's sad to say that this is most wasteful part of the hobby. Many retailers and wholesalers don't take the time to properly acclimatize and the losses are enormous.


----------



## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

kev416 said:


> I'm sure you saw what I saw in the video that little fish suffering pH shock skipping at the surface. I had to question what he did as well. I bet he wished the camera never caught that... but the fish probably survived.


lol ya when I saw that I was like, oh man that's emberrasing. He was really calm and composed though lol.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

He is probably (the guy on the video) reporting the actual procedure that they follow. These fish have already endured a lot of shipment stress and the water in their bags is toxic. In a case like that, a quick match of pH and temperature, and an immediate change from toxic to clean water is probably the best they can do to prevent further ammonia burns to the fish that need to be out of that o2-depleted water that is full of co2 and ammonia.

Secondly, if the ROM aquarium is looking rough, I'd assume that it's because it's still hugely immature, and that they had to rush it. My guess is that they were told from above to be at full stocking levels immediately on opening day, and that was a horrible mistake. If the customer spends the money and demands it, you give them what they ask for, even though it's a mistake.

I would be more willing to believe the owner/customer/museum-itself is responsible for whatever husbandry decisions lead to its neglected looking slimy diatom covered appearance.

W


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

solarz said:


> One thing I don't get though, is this: for ammonia to be converted into ammonium, the pH must be acidic (<7). However, those are saltwater fish, who usually live in high-pH environments. How can they stand such low pH?


True enough, but while in the bag the trapped CO2 build up lowers pH without really affecting the other parameters. Drip acclimation works well enough for fish from the store that have been in a bag for a short time, but is risky for fish that have been trans shipped and have spent a long time in the bag. Kordon Breather bags work differently, allowing the CO2 to escape, so fish can actually stay in the bag for many days without adverse effects.
This type of thing can also happen with a water change in a tank. It isn't likely to happen in a home tank, but in a heavily stocked tank in a store, an acidic tank that is overstocked and with ammonium in it that is changed with water having a high enough pH to make the tank +7ph, and you get ammonia problems including death.


----------

