# Ebo-Jager Heaters Mythbuster



## WaterWorld (May 7, 2006)

Why do Ebo-Jager on the heaters themselves say 'do not immerese beyond water level', while on the box they come in state that they are submersible?

The manual states: 
*Do not submerge:
Water level must never be over water level mark on the housing*

So are they or are they not submersible?


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

It has something to do with talking on a cell phone while pumping gas into your car 

I could be wrong on this but I believe that it has something to do with insurance liability.


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## WaterWorld (May 7, 2006)

I emailed Eheim since they're now the makers of Jager heaters to see what they say. I'll update on their response.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

I actually have been following their instructions on that one... But I guess from what I read--people fully submerse it anyway.

The other day--I forgot to turn it off while doing a WC and now the inside part has a hairline crack about 1 cm long. I'll fully submerse it now.


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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

jrs said:


> It has something to do with talking on a cell phone while pumping gas into your car
> 
> I could be wrong on this but I believe that it has something to do with insurance liability.


Yea, it has to do with that...they can be 100% submerged


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## stratos (Jul 4, 2007)

Apparently it is against Canadian regulations to have submersible electrical products unless they go through a bunch of tests. Most companies can not be bothered to spend the money on the tests and so market the products as non-submersible even though they are!


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Mhmm its a CSA safety thing...


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

That raise a question doesn't it? If they can not be bothered to spend the money on the tests, then how do they know that is submersible safe?
I think it's either they didn't pass the CSA test or that they think they can get away with it as long as the pass the UL test.

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## WaterWorld (May 7, 2006)

I emailed them yesterday regarding this matter and have not yet received a reply. I will keep the thread updated.


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## WaterWorld (May 7, 2006)

I received a response from Eheim over the issue if their Jager heaters are submersible or not and this is what they said:

_AGER heaters are fully submersible according to European standards. However since the production of JAGER heaters was moved to Germany when EHEIM acquired the company, a new UL certificate must be issued for the "New" company. This new certificate must be issued to comply with the North American standards, until then the heater must be labeled as not submersible in North America. Please note that all JAGER heaters comply with ETL standards, which is the European Equivalent of the UL certificate._


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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

I read that in a few other posts from other forums, wonder how long does it take to get the new UL ??

BTW - if your looking to purchase a CSA approved heater check out visa-therms


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

That doesn't tell me much. He/She basically evade the question. I don't care if it's UL certified or not, this is Canada and we certified through CSA not UL.

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## jimbogregs (Jul 4, 2006)

I thought they did well to answer at all. You know it's submersible, UL Cert'd is as good as CSA, I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

Zebrapl3co said:


> That doesn't tell me much. He/She basically evade the question. I don't care if it's UL certified or not, this is Canada and we certified through CSA not UL.


If you want CSA look at visa-therm heaters.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

So is that legal speak for "it's safe for submersing in Europe, but since it hasn't been approved by North American standards yet, we don't want to be held liable for product failures once submerged in North America. It's safe for use in Europe, it's the same product in North American, but it just hasn't been approved yet".


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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW - as a side note, switching around tanks last night and pulled out my CSA approved Visa-Therm ( which was fully submerged ) only to find condensation inside..so I think no matter what product you choose be it a listed fully submersible or not there is always a chance for leaks.


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## JamesG (Feb 27, 2007)

Getting any sort of electronic item to pass all of these certifications takes an eternity and costs the producer a bundle. My family's business cannot sell their products in Europe because even something so simple as a device that allows closed captioning to be displayed must undergo tens of thousands of dollars in testing to see if it interferes with many irrelevant types of equipment. 

Eheim does not have to go through with all of this extra silliness to import to Canada because the Canadian government does not use the CSA certification as their cover for protectionist trade policies like europe does with their "safety standards" . 

They may eventually get this certification for liability purposes should someone hurt themselves.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Grey Legion said:


> If you want CSA look at visa-therm heaters.


Thanks Grey Legion. Yes, I checked mine and is it CSA approved. But the problem is, it specifically said not to use it fully submerged (I need to check on the manual, but I think that's what I remember.)

The problem with all these glass heater is that I honestly don't think they can really pass the fully submersible test in North America. Be it CSA or UL, they just didn't pass the fully submersible test. That's why they have the recomended water line in the test tub. In their manual, they specifically said not to fully submerge the heater. Only a very few heaters pass the fully submersible test. The metallic heaters, Guardian brand, and maybe the visi-therm stealth heater (this one I am not sure).
For the rest, they all are allow to sell it legally as long as they state that it's not for fully submersible use.
So, yes, they did get their cert from UL. It's been tested, and pass. But that test was not for a fully submersible use. Since they already spend the time and money, why not just put it pass the fully submersible test? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Thanks Grey Legion. Yes, I checked mine and is it CSA approved. But the problem is, it specifically said not to use it fully submerged (I need to check on the manual, but I think that's what I remember.)
> 
> The problem with all these glass heater is that I honestly don't think they can really pass the fully submersible test in North America. Be it CSA or UL, they just didn't pass the fully submersible test. That's why they have the recomended water line in the test tub. In their manual, they specifically said not to fully submerge the heater. Only a very few heaters pass the fully submersible test. The metallic heaters, Guardian brand, and maybe the visi-therm stealth heater (this one I am not sure).
> For the rest, they all are allow to sell it legally as long as they state that it's not for fully submersible use.
> So, yes, they did get their cert from UL. It's been tested, and pass. But that test was not for a fully submersible use. Since they already spend the time and money, why not just put it pass the fully submersible test? I think the answer is pretty obvious.


My Visa-Therm was fully submerged for 3 years it was only now when I pulled it out to switch tanks did I notice the condensation inside, which does not denote a leak per say, but it could have happened on the molcular (sp) level over time from the constant temp changes.

I think if you REALLY want to be 100% safe and ensure a long lasting heater, follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Grey Legion said:


> If you want CSA look at visa-therm heaters.


One of my visi therms which is less then 3 months old just cracked underwater! I was in the shower and smelled burning or I wouldn't haven't known. It's adhered to the tank wall securely no ornaments or much of anything as its a fry growout tank 20 gallons and was not exposed to the air. The last water change I did was last week and the heater was unplugged at least 10 minutes before the change and removed from the tank. It was placed in about a half an hour later when it was cool to the touch. I picked up 4 visi therms recently and have been really unhappy with all of them.


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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

Katalyst said:


> One of my visi therms which is less then 3 months old just cracked underwater! I was in the shower and smelled burning or I wouldn't haven't known. It's adhered to the tank wall securely no ornaments or much of anything as its a fry growout tank 20 gallons and was not exposed to the air. The last water change I did was last week and the heater was unplugged at least 10 minutes before the change and removed from the tank. It was placed in about a half an hour later when it was cool to the touch. I picked up 4 visi therms recently and have been really unhappy with all of them.


I never said they were good...I really don't care for mine aswell, but I have them and they work. (so far)


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

JamesG said:


> Getting any sort of electronic item to pass all of these certifications takes an eternity and costs the producer a bundle. My family's business cannot sell their products in Europe because even something so simple as a device that allows closed captioning to be displayed must undergo tens of thousands of dollars in testing to see if it interferes with many irrelevant types of equipment...


This is kind of off topic, but James, your family might not know about the inner workings of Europe or Asia for that matter, but obviously, the inspector was expecting to get bribed, but since you didn't pay up, and he's pissed, that's why he purposely stop your product from going forward. In cases like this, it would be prudent to try another way to put your product forward without seeing the same agency as it's obvious that they are corrupted. (now don't quote me on this and please don't try to bribe your way through. I also drink 10 bottles of beer when I am writing this and am not held liable for any kind of lawsuit resulting from this.)
But think about it. You might want to try another European standard from a more trust worthy country and see where it goes....

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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Grey Legion said:


> I never said they were good...I really don't care for mine aswell, but I have them and they work. (so far)


I don't believe I suggested you had.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Zebrapl3co said:


> That raise a question doesn't it? If they can not be bothered to spend the money on the tests, then how do they know that is submersible safe?
> I think it's either they didn't pass the CSA test or that they think they can get away with it as long as the pass the UL test.


They know because in other countries where they're less "Retarded" as Martin might say than in Canada, it has been tested to be submersible safe.

I've had like 10 of them... and no problem.


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## JamesG (Feb 27, 2007)

Zebrapl3co said:


> This is kind of off topic, but James, your family might not know about the inner workings of Europe or Asia for that matter, but obviously, the inspector was expecting to get bribed, but since you didn't pay up, and he's pissed, that's why he purposely stop your product from going forward. In cases like this, it would be prudent to try another way to put your product forward without seeing the same agency as it's obvious that they are corrupted. (now don't quote me on this and please don't try to bribe your way through. I also drink 10 bottles of beer when I am writing this and am not held liable for any kind of lawsuit resulting from this.)
> But think about it. You might want to try another European standard from a more trust worthy country and see where it goes....


I am just using that statement to show that getting electronics into Europe is cost prohibitive for small manufacturers. It's not that anything wouldn't pass safety or other standards, it's just the red tape associated with any European government, as all are designed to be very protectionist.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I know how you guys feel, and this is a long long debated topic that keeps going around in a circle and never have a true answer.
But there is a reason why they specifically stated in their manuals that you can't use it fully submerged.
I mean what else can I say? 
It's like they sky scraper contruction worker telling people that he doesn't need a safty strap harness and it's perfectly safe walking on a beam 300 feet in the air. "What safty hazord? I've been doing it for the last 30 years."

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## Grey Legion (Mar 20, 2006)

The simple reason they tell you not fully submerge any heater is simple, it gets them out of any responcibility if you heater is submergered and it leaks or shocks someone.

Like we all have stated here all the certificates in the world don't mean nothing, not every heater is tested so the chance for a bad one getting out is a possibility and the manufacturer knows this and tries to remove the respoceability from them.


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