# Defeated and at a loss. Mantis failure x2



## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

Over Christmas i got back into the hobby with what I left off with. A brand spanking new mantis shrimp in my old biocube.

I was happy and he was popular.

I made the (now horrible choice) of upgrading his pad. Full upscale. 14 gallons to 30 g with a 20 g sump. Pcv burrow and all the clams and snails he could smash.

Through out this time water quality was fine. I did lose lots of hermits, a conch, and 6 damsels, but I thought that was due to him.

I added trace elements and iodine at this point at the suggestions of a veteran (not mantis shrimps) and my general research into inverts.

I thought i forced a bad molt until I got a second a week later. After about a week in the tank (after a 50% water change) this one is dieing. Same symptoms of laying out exposed and breathing shallowly.

I know some of the symptoms correspond with molting but 2 in 3 weeks? Also at this point I needed to do something. He is in a hospital tank now with new water. I don't give him much hope.

At this point the only thing I can think of is I cheeped out on the gravel and made my own crushed limestone gravel. In an industrial pulverize and then washed (what I thought was well).

Did i kill my favorite animal and the reason I love this hobby.

Hardness - Off the charts
KH - 80=120
pH -7.5-8
No2 - 0-1.5
No3 - 0-20
Amonia <.02 ppm

Guys I'm at a loss. He has stopped breathing in the hospital tank. I kept one 10 years ago no problem. I didn't change anything this time.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Your choice of stone is probably having an impact. For a 30 gallon you don't need much, so why not swap it out now with aragonite, while the tank is sort of empty and see what it does to hardness. Also, what is your water source?
If you used the same gravel before, with success, it's hard to know what may be different between then and now. Contaminants in the pulverizer? Different limestone that breaks down with different trace minerals? 
Eliminate the gravel variable and see what happens. Even just go bare bottom for a while. And stop dosing for now. You should be able to manage your trace elements through consistent small water changes for that size tank.
Start here, see if you can stabilize the environment.
Hopefully the shrimp makes it............


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## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

He did not make it much longer than the writing of the post but I was done with the whole thing by then.

Water source is dechlorinated municipal (is buying treated water from big als worth it?)

Kept mantis shrimps before no problem, the gravel is new and there is a ton. It isn't supposed to be contaminated. It came from a limestone pit and is used as road material. Cleaned and washed well after the crushing. But not with detergent. I was more worried about the super fine material at the time.

We are removing it today and I'm picking up some argonite gravel and some new live rock.

Do you think its worth trying the live rock from before?

Last bit of info is he was living with a small hermit and a molly. Both still doing fine today.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

Inverts are very sensitive to heavy metals and pollutants in general. I would recommend using RODI. Buy yourself a unit (they are about $100).


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## Jmbret (Nov 6, 2010)

Hey, don't get discouraged because these things do happen! It is what you learn from it all - which allows you take something positive away from crappy situations. 

Did you buy the 30 gallon tank new or used and from a trusted source?

I believe an R/O filter is a great idea. Before you do that, you can always test your water with a TDS Total Dissolved Solids meter to see how dirty your tap water is. My tap water is pretty clean, around 130ppm but after running through my R/O I can get 0-2 ppm! 

Good luck!


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## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

Thanks I'm looking into one now.

Wouldn't it have effected all my inverts? Hermit is doing fine, but a new emerald I got died in a few hours of going in.

So far we got the gravel out. Grabbing plain argonite sand today and possibly the RODI


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## Jmbret (Nov 6, 2010)

Every creature has different tolerance levels, depending on where it came from and how it is transported, its individual stress levels etc. 

The reason I asked about the tank is in case someone used heavy copper in it before they sold it to you. Inverts are super sensitive to it!

J


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## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

I've thought about that. They came from Kijiji. Should I grab a copper test as well? Would a good clean remove any traces from the tanks them selves. I'm ditching the gravel for new argonite for sure and doing a big clean.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Molly's can handle a lot, so it may not be a good indicator. Hermit crabs are tough as well but the emerald is a tell tale sign. Something is definitely up with your tank and it may not ever be possible to pin point exactly what it is. Knowing that you've kept tanks before, you know the concept of a cycle to get levels stable. give yourself a few weeks empty before you try any inverts again. Start to eliminate the variables.
Clean rock (get rid of it all, as a 30 gallon won't take a lot of rock) and get new rock from a trusted source. You can soak the rock you have in the old water from your future water changes to clean up and maybe use later.
Clean gravel.
Check the tank for copper levels, yes.
Good water. 
If you know the history and source of everything you put in the tank from here forward, then you can eliminate contaminant sources and focus on the reef chemistry.


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## Jmbret (Nov 6, 2010)

Crayon said:


> Molly's can handle a lot, so it may not be a good indicator. Hermit crabs are tough as well but the emerald is a tell tale sign. Something is definitely up with your tank and it may not ever be possible to pin point exactly what it is. Knowing that you've kept tanks before, you know the concept of a cycle to get levels stable. give yourself a few weeks empty before you try any inverts again. Start to eliminate the variables.
> Clean rock (get rid of it all, as a 30 gallon won't take a lot of rock) and get new rock from a trusted source. You can soak the rock you have in the old water from your future water changes to clean up and maybe use later.
> Clean gravel.
> Check the tank for copper levels, yes.
> ...


THIS ^ is sound advice and the best way to move forward is systematically!


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## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

I have a plan and the RODI. Thanks Jm, Crayon, and Kamal. Ill post again when I add livestock again.


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## amps (Feb 24, 2015)

I had a similiar situation when trying to start up a frag tank in the summer. Corals frags dies within 24-48 hours, snails dropped in 60mins and a six-line wrasses made it about a day or two before going belly up.

I was dumb and had used a brass fitting to step up the output of my MJ1200 pump. It had leached enough copper into the tank over the cycle period (which was long and awful) to raise the copper levels to .6ppm, deadly to most creatures in a tank. Suprisingly, the only thing that lived through the ordeal was a lone hermit crab.

Grab yourself that copper test kit and double/triple check the readings. Also consider picking up a 'Poly Filter'. It'll absorb heavy metals and change color to let your know what the contaminant is.


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## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I'm using the same return setup.

Cycling in the biocube was fine. Moving to the 30+20 was rough. No no algae growth, macro algae died. 6 chromis went to 1. Only survivors are a molly and a hermit crab.

What did you use as an alternative?

Edit: will there be a copper residue on the tank?


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## amps (Feb 24, 2015)

Awwwwwww shoot that sucks!

You're gonna need to do a full breakdown. The copper will be readily absorbed by your rock and your sand. I had to toss the sand in my system (cheap and easy to replace) and I did an acid wash of my rock. The tank gets scrubbed down with vinegar and left to soak for 2-3 days and then wash down again. 

Once you get it cycling, add a large chunk of Poly Filter to absorb any residual copper (there really shouldn't be any) and for peace of mind.

I found suitable vinyl plumbing parts at Home Hardware and no where else. I've learned that any metal at all is a big no-no in a reef tank, the salt water is far too corrosive. This includes stainless steel pipe/tube clamps anywhere exposed to water, stick with friction or zip ties.

Best of luck dude!


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## CartoonJustice (Feb 1, 2016)

Thanky dank man.

I got a plan and that's better then wondering. I knew this hobby was going to be "spend another hundred". I'm glad I figured out how to post on this forum.


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