# Cycling Dilemma



## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

Hi everyone!

First post here and looking for some advice on cycling.

I'll give you some background on what I have been going threw. We bought a Betta named Marvin the end of December and a 5G minibow. He suffered from Ich which I successfully treated then began cycling his tank around the end of Jan. I do realize that the cycling should of come first but I did not do my homework before the purchase.

I live in East York and I have tested my tap water with API test kit. It reads 0.25 ammonia and 5 nitrate. I have been testing Marvin's tank pretty much daily and it is pretty steady reading 0.5 ammonia and 0 nitrite PH 8. I took out the filter and dumped out the charcoal and stuffed some aqueon sponge cut up in it, Thinking more surface area for the bacteria to cling on to...I have been changing 10L of his water every other day because everyone says you should keep the ammonia less than 0.25. Not sure how that is possible when mine reads that at the start. I use Prime as a water conditioner and I have had some people suggest that maybe using Prime locks up the ammonia that the bacteria can't use it essentially causing the bacteria to starve? I thought Prime allowed the ammonia to be utilized by the bacteria. can anyone confirm that?

A few days ago I thought I'd give Stability a try. I know there is a debate on if it works but 3 months in to this I thought what do I have to lose. Nothing has changed. No nitrites- ammonia 0.5 PH 8. 

On another site someone suggested RO water..I thought I'd post here to find out if that's what people use here in TO to keep their fish safe. 

I do not know anyone with an aquarium because if I did I'm sure they would of stopped me in my tracks before I got into this mess!!!

I am really attached to the little bugger and want his tank to be cycled so he can be safe. In closing I would appreciate any advice you have to offer.

nj


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## carmenh (Dec 20, 2009)

You can't use straight RO...you will have terrible pH swings unless you get into mixing or buffering...don't go there... Tap water should be fine if treated with Prime.

I would gladly give you some filter gunk, but I'm in Burlington. Surely someone closer to you will offer...hint hint all you Torontonians...

If no one closer can help, I'm probably going to the MAST auction on Wednesday, PM me if the library at 5801 Leslie is anywhere near you and you want to meet up...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I am near you if you need some filter gunk from my five gallon shrimp tank. However I have to mention I had cali-worms months back but treated three times with a dewormer. Never had it in that specific tank thou.

So I don't know if you would be comfortable with my filter gunks.

I am having a small meet and greet on the 24th (sat) of april so you are free to come if you like and see if anyone can bring some for you.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm not sure what you are using to test your water, but something makes me think it is of low quality or you are not properly reading the results.

I live in EY as well, and the water coming out of the tap is coming out at about 7.4 pH, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrites and very rarely can I detect any Nitrates.

Which test kits are you using? Are you using a Nitrate test kit? 

For example, most test kits will detect ammonia around .5 - 1 ppm. .25 typically could be anything from 0-.25.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Oboy, poor Marvin, he never stood a chance ....
Where do I start? ....
....
OK.
A) You don't need to cycle his tank anymore. So please stop what you are doing. Just make a water change and leave it at that. Do your routine weekly water change religioulsy to make up to him. Why? because it's already cycled. You already cycled your tank using your betta, it's what people called a fish cycle. So yeah, he took the burn and poisoning from you. Fortunately, unlike a majority of the other fish, he can breath air too, so that explains why he is still alive. That's not to say that he didn't suffer through the ordeal. But don't blame yourself, you didn't know and the fish store where you bought him from should have told you that. Instead, they just look the other way thinking you'll probably kill off your betta and come back wondering why and buy more medication and a new fish.

B) Stop trying to recycle the tank again, reason being, it's already cycled. So now, you just tried to burn and poison your betta a second time. This is kind of a OMG situation. So please, stop adding anymore cycle products into his tank, you're trying to kill him a second time.

C) Don't worry about not having enough ammonia from the tap water. If your betta is still alive. He's feeding the bacteria just by breathing and pooping. Please continue to dechlorinate your water during water change. Keep to the mantra, 0 ammonia is good, any trace of ammonia is no so good, high trace of ammonia means a dead fish.

D) Please find out why your are getting 8.0 pH, that is not so good for a betta. GTA water is 7.8 pH, what kind of decoration do you have in there. Limestones, cement and corals substrate that will raise your tanks pH. If you have those, please take them out. A good pH for a betta is 7. But they can adjust to 7.8 pH which is kind of the max point already.

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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

WOW..and yes I did do a OMG...

So you think my tank is cycled. I thought that I was suppose to, at some point, have nitrites...I never had any nitrites. Ever.

I am using the API Master Test kit I bought at Petsmart. It tests for bound and free ammonia. Which is why I always get a reading...I think. Is there something in our water that reacts with the test kit and makes it false positive?

What kit do you use? Does it test for free only? Is that what I should be using?

I know I deserve the slam with what I have probably put him threw but I have spent alot of time trying to educate myself and do right by him. 

As for my PH...he has a cave. silk plant..and purple rocks form PetSmart. I have no idea what the rocks are.. 

Go easy on me. That last reply brought a tear to my eye...

nj


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

we tend to be cut and dry. Not to offend.. dont cry.
So-

Your test contains two pH reagents, one is high range pH. Make sure you are *NOT* using this one

Your tank is cycled when you detect a nitrate level in your tank greater than the nitrate level in your tap. Stop doing daily water changes or whatever you're doing just do them every 3-7 days no more than 30% make sure the incoming water is the same temp dose water conditioner as per instructions.

If you don't put any food in the tank, do a water change, wait 8 hours, then test, there should be zero ammonia zero nitrite and some amount of nitrate (minimum 5 as that is your tap level, though unless you do 100% water changes or something, your tank should have higher nitrate than 5)

Most people just don't read the test kit properly and keep getting false positives.

You read the kit with the vial right up against the white card under as close to 6500K lighting as possible. Ideally sunlight.

That's about it.

I'm 99% sure you are misusing and/or misreading the test kit. Also, never dip the test tube into the water you always use an eye dropper. 
Seachem stability is one of the best products of its kind and especially if you're using it every day you can't have a constant .25 ammonia.

If you don't know what the rock is, remove it. 
What kind of gravel you using? Some cheap gravels will increase pH.

On a side note, bettas don't like caves, they like a thicket of floating plants. Fake is fine.


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

*Ammonia test*

Here is a pic of my ammonia test taken out in the sunshine. I very well might be reading this wrong. I always use a dropper and never dunked in the tank.

PH is 7.6 I was using the bottle you said not to use. My PH would be at the bottom of the chart on the side marked for PH only..from 6.0-7.6. Mine was nice and blue..so 7.6. Might of fixed one of my mistakes.

So if i was saying this was 0.5...What would you read this as?

nj


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

I'm not clear on what you mean by starting the cycling a month after you got the fish. As soon as the fish was in the tank, the cycle started. Toronto water has chloramine added, and when you put water conditioner in, it breaks it down into ammonia and chlorine and converts both into non-toxic forms. The minute amount of ammonia is gradually released and taken up by plants and bacteria.

A 5 gallon tank for one betta is a very light bioload. You do water changes, so the ammonia level probably never got very high, so he probably didn't suffer at all. Indeed, if you are willing to change a gallon or so of water weekly, you wouldn't really need a filter -- bacteria and algae growing on the tank surfaces will take care of most of the pollutants, as long as the fish is eating everything you feed him. Spoiled food from overfeeding causing water quality problems is very common with beginners.

As for water tests, there's a wide variation in acuity of color perception, and some people have trouble reading these tests, which aren't all that accurate, anyway. It helps a lot to read the colors by daylight. Some water conditioners can cause false positive readings with some test methods.

If your tap water reads more than 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, I'd suspect your test kit or your color perception. Ditto, the pH -- Toronto tap water is about 7.8 these days, and it would be easy to read that as 8 from a test kit.

I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about. You've done your best, spent a lot of money and time and worry overdoing it, perhaps. The tank is okay. You didn't hurt or harm your fish. Just do regular partial water changes, and Marvin may live for years, unlike most bettas that have the longevity of cut flowers for most people who buy them and keep them in tiny containers.


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

Marvin have Ich about a week and a half after we got him..Had to treat him then clean the tank after he was spot free that is why I started cycling a month after I got him.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

*. My PH would be at the bottom of the chart on the side marked for PH only..from 6.0-7.6. Mine was nice and blue..so 7.6. Might of fixed one of my mistakes.

So if i was saying this was 0.5...What would you read this as?*

What?

I can't make sense of what you've written. You're not telling me what test Im looking at.

Also, what chart are you referring to? nice and blue 7.6? There's no blue section on that chart it's purple. Also according to the pictured chart it'd be orange at 7.8

I'm not sure if they've changed the high/low ranges for the API pH kits. You definitely have a pH from 7-8 given that you're drawing tap water, not using an alkaline substrate and only have two suspicious rocks. Likely 7.6ish. Use whatever test kit includes a 7-8 range.

If that's an ammonia test we're looking at then yes you do have ammonia.

It's 0.5 in my opinion also. Which is insanely high. I'm inclined to wonder if you got one of the rare screwy ornaments that never stop gassing off weird crudd. I once got a petsmart fake rock that caused a nitrite spike in every tank it went into, decided it had to be leaching volatile organic compounds. Crappy paint and plastic never stop leeching.

Alternately, you may have a faulty test kit. It happens. Rarely. Check the expiry dates. If you can't find them email API with your batch number response takes 24 hours.


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

PH on the API chart has 2 columns. 1 marked PH colour starting yellow 6.0 to blue 7.6. High PH brownish-purple 7.4-8.8. I thought you said not to use the bottle marked for high PH,
I was using the bottle marked for high PH when I orginally tested it, If I used the bottle just marked for PH it reads 7.6 the highest reading. I apologize for not being clearer. Am I still all screwed up?

Yes the picture I posted was ammonia.

nj


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

From your image, I would suspect you have detectable levels of ammonia in your tank - from .25 to .50.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

peacepod said:


> PH on the API chart has 2 columns. 1 marked PH colour starting yellow 6.0 to blue 7.6. High PH brownish-purple 7.4-8.8. I thought you said not to use the bottle marked for high PH,
> I was using the bottle marked for high PH when I orginally tested it, If I used the bottle just marked for PH it reads 7.6 the highest reading. I apologize for not being clearer. Am I still all screwed up?
> 
> Yes the picture I posted was ammonia.
> ...


You should be testing 7.4-7.8 out of tap depending on where you are, trapped gasses, etc. Use both test reagents if you want and use common sense. If one says it's over 7.6 and the other says it is 7.8 then it's 7.8

Now to figure out why you have ammonia...


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## InSpirit (Mar 14, 2009)

Not the clearest of pictures... but it will have to do. Tapwater in Scarborough... right out of the tap reads 0.25 - 0.5 ppm. Test your tapwater for ammonia. It's reading chloramine. A 50% water change is dosing ammonium ion locked up by Prime from the tapwater. Back off on 50% WC until your filter catches up. And stop feeding the betta. Fish are always overfed.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Are you doing daily water changes or something? Don't feed it for 3 days, don't touch it, just let the tank run, then test. 

Are you doing the test properly, shaking the reagents really well, adding the exact amount of water etc?


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

*Bottled water vs tap water EY*

As it was pointed out to me by others I am changing too much water too often. I have been changing about 8-10 L every 2-3 days conditioning with Prime.

I will let it sit for 3 days and test again. No feeding the tank means Marvin gets no food.

This picture shows bottled water vs tap water in East York. Ammonia testing

On the LEFT- bottled water RIGHT -tapwater

nj


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

peacepod said:


> As it was pointed out to me by others I am changing too much water too often. I have been changing about 8-10 L every 2-3 days conditioning with Prime.
> 
> I will let it sit for 3 days and test again. No feeding the tank means Marvin gets no food.
> 
> ...


Ya the tap water has about .3ish of ammonia because it is complexed with chlorine to make chloramine.

Are you way overdosing prime or something? For 10L (Not ten gallons) you're looking at something like three drops- to the new water not the water in the tank.

We have established your ammonia test kit works properly though.. so now we have to figure out why you test positive ammonia in the tank..

Dont worry about that betta not eating for three days. You dont wanna know how they ship them.


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

I have followed the directions on the bottle 2 drops/4L So for the 8L -4 drops 10L -5 drops.

I'm using a rubermaid bucket with the levels marked on the side and who knows how accurate they are. I'll check the volume on the side vs actual.
Never really thought about it before.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

peacepod said:


> I have followed the directions on the bottle 2 drops/4L So for the 8L -4 drops 10L -5 drops.
> 
> I'm using a rubermaid bucket with the levels marked on the side and who knows how accurate they are. I'll check the volume on the side vs actual.
> Never really thought about it before.


You'd have to be using 20x that amount to cause an issue that's not it.. Thought maybe you were using whole capfulls for one bucket or something. I've seen people do it.. namely my best friend AKA the fish killer


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

If you wanted to buffer the pH lower a small piece of driftwood would slowly help lower the pH a little. 

Also if you have an eye dropper you can drip a couple drops of vinegar in the tank to slowly lower the pH. 1-2 drops a day will slowly change the pH over time however don't drop like 1/4 cup in looking to turn pH 8.0 to 7.0. Your fish will die for sure as that is a 10point change. I did the vinegar pH down thing with my 5.5 gal before. Worked fine with my testings till I was impatient and did the 1/4 cup one time. >_<;; Learned you can't rush that stuff.

However in your water change water that you keep stored for water changes you could drop the vinegar in there and test the pH and see if it is the pH you want and note how many drops it took to get that and do that to the water change aged water kept in storage till water change time that way your pH will stay stable.

BTW that pH vinegar thing is a cross over knowledge from Aquaponics and also a natural and often home remedy for pH down. Baking soda IIRC is pH UP. Peat moss also is a pH DOWN buffer as well tho it can get messy so I'd look at those peat pellet things if you're going that route.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Noob+altering water chemistry = boom


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

AquariAM said:


> Noob+altering water chemistry = boom


sounds about right to me. i wouldn't mess with the water chemistry if i were you. it will just complicate things and make a lot more work for you.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Agreed, just leave your pH as is.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't agree with the vinegar thingy. Just leave the pH alone for now as it's fine if it's sitting at 7.6pH. I learn this old trick from a restaurant way back in the old days. Vinegar is an extremely good bacteria killing agent. Spray a mix of 1/3 vinegar and 2/3 water on your table and wipe with cloth on a table every night before the restaurant close. The next day it's completely bacteria free. It's even better than those mr clean agent. So I would think twice about adding vinegar into a fish tank unless you want to start off another cycle again.

Sorry nj, didin't mean to make it so harsh on the previous post. That was inconsiderate of me.

I am really disturbed by the amount of ammonia you're getting. Your tap should be showing 0 ammonia to start with. Normally, our test kit does not test the presence of binded ammonia (or chloramines). Unless your local water station screwed up big time and either added way too much ammonia into the tab (hence all the chlorine as bounded and there is still a .25 ppm of free ammonia present) or there was very little chlorine in your tab water (hense not all the ammonia are bound, and there is .25 ppm of free ammonia floating around).
Another posibility is that your test kit is so good that it can test the level of binded ammonia. Which would have indicated that your tab water is OK. (but I kind of doubt that this is the case though).

I am really confuse now. But I am beginning to suspect that you are one of those poor people who's local water controler is an idiot government worker who isn't doing his job propertly.
http://www.toronto.ca/water/supply/supply_facilities/rcharris/pdf/water_filtration_process.pdf

See the above link of your GTA water proccessing flow. The last step was to add ammonia into the tab water before it get's pumped to our home. If the tester didn't do his/her job. Too much ammonia would have been added. The the people who drinks the water would be OK, the water probably taste like piss. But depending on the level of ammonia, it can burn and kill your fish when you do a large water change. I've caught this once already and sit out on my water change for 2 weeks before my water tested ammonia free again. ...

Sorry, just running off again, not helping you much.
Double dose your dechlorinator agent (Prime?) when you do a water change. Hopefully, it will lock away your ammonia.

As the other mentioned, you need to make sure you are not over feeding. I would feed once per day. Add 4 or 5 pellets if you are feeding him betta pellet food. Add a pinch of flakes if you are feeding hin flakes, he has 40 seconds to eat all he can. After that, scope all the flakes back out of his tank. You don't want to pollute the water with rotting food. Do this until your tank stablize (1 or 2 months down the road). Then you can probably feed him twice a day.

Good luck,

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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

I didn't realize there was more than one lady in a purple shirt and lab coat... I figured we all got the same water in Toronto.


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## InSpirit (Mar 14, 2009)

*pH*

nj if your pH is somewhat higher than average you most likely are experiencing the after effects of concrete lining of the water supply pipes as the city tries to stop the aging system from corroding. My pH was high for a year after they worked on my street.


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

*cycling*

Hey everyone

Thanks for all the replies. I'll wait the 3 days without feeding him and check daily for the ammonia..Still 0.5 ppm

As for rotting food I shouldn't have a problem there because he's a pig and his food doesn't make it to the bottom before it's gobbled up. I'll keep on top of that and make sure.

I think my test kit is ok because the bottled water does read 0 for ammonia.

As for the PH. Ya I won't be adding any acetic acid to anything. I can't get the cycling under control and I can't imagine compounding my problem with shifting the PH. I guess one problem at a time.

We did have our water main changed at the end of our street. They had a very large deep hole dug at the end of the street and our road was totally ripped up and the pipes changed.. It was a few years ago tho...

Thanks
nj


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

peacepod said:


> Hey everyone
> 
> Thanks for all the replies. I'll wait the 3 days without feeding him and check daily for the ammonia..Still 0.5 ppm
> 
> ...


You know bettas need like 3 - 5 1mm pellets per day for an average size adult male right. Anything over that is not necessary.


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## peacepod (Apr 10, 2010)

*Day 3*

Hello

So day 3 of Starvin Marvin (could not resist)

Ammonia 3 days ago 0.5 
Ammonia today IMO on it's way to 1.0

I have posted a picture of the ammonia reading for today.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

nj


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## InSpirit (Mar 14, 2009)

Just lock up the ammonia with Prime or Ammo-lock and wait until the filter kicks in. Unless you really screwed up the filter... I can't envision what you did to it BTW. Since you choose to continue feeding expect it to go higher. Just ensure all ammonia is bound by following the directions... 5X Prime or Ammo lock. I will usually do a partial water change after seven days. But remember your tapwater will already be 0.25-0.5ppm after neutralizing with Prime so don't expect it to drop to zero.


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## InSpirit (Mar 14, 2009)

And there's the other side of the argument... just leave it because all this Prime is just delaying the cycling process. Bacteria need some toxic ammonia to colonize the filter. Anyways it doesn't really matter... if the cycle is delayed the level of bound ammonia increases as you continue feeding and it will revert and seed the filter in time. LOL poor Marvin. After all this you better give him a few females to fool around with...


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

InSpirit said:


> And there's the other side of the argument... just leave it because all this Prime is just delaying the cycling process. Bacteria need some toxic ammonia to colonize the filter. Anyways it doesn't really matter... if the cycle is delayed the level of bound ammonia increases as you continue feeding and it will revert and seed the filter in time. LOL poor Marvin. After all this you better give him a few females to fool around with...


Biofilters can use NH3 and NH4 at almost identical rates of efficiency.


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## InSpirit (Mar 14, 2009)

Well that may not be true. If you see the frustration on many people's posting on the web about cycling and the discussion by manufacturers of bacteria cultures warning people not to use Prime in conjunction with a seed culture you have to ask... who's right? The Seachem people or the others. How come the rest of us never have a problem when we start a tank with no chemicals just with old water? I've seen a few people saying that bacterial cultures are a waste of money... they are usually the ones dosing high amounts of chemicals to make themselves feel better. Then there are some of us who use ammonia on a fishless start up with a brand new biofilter.


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