# Questions on Shrimps / Equip for Nano



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi All,

I have a 10 gallon normal tank right now, with rcs and amanos, and low light plants. I want to add about 6 - 8 chili rasboras, but i guess i was told i needed a heater. There is hidding spots, and i will put some picks on in a few days for the babies. I have a sponge filter and an AC20, but thinking of upgrading the filter to something better once i find a good deal. Thanks to Jaysan (active member in these forums and sold me some shrimps and very large amazon frogbit) who helped me alot with knowledge and inspiration from his beautifull starfire tanks, i did alot of new aquascaping, though i am not currently equiped for making it look like a Nano, i am improving at least from what it was before. Eventually, planing for more moss in it, perhaps a moss wall, as right now, i only have moss on one of my driftwood. Also, I went to AI for the first time on saturday, and wow, how impressive that was, and got some nice cheap lights and rocks (i think it is dragon, but they call it something else) and an SAE (didnt see any Otos). Extremely highly recommended to anyonce who hasn't been. The ideal for me would be if i could eventually in the futur upgrade my current 10 g to one of their 16 g starfire tank (or minimum of 9.5g), it was 120$, but that would not be a project for this year yet.

Q1:
I have an eheim 50W jagger, which i am using in another tanks, but it is big and i am wondering if there is a nano version which is both reliable and safe for shrimps, but also small, so the tanks stays looking nice. I really want to try addign the chili rasboras.

Q2:
Also, i am currently putting 1 veggie sticks with calcium for shrimp sticks (which i buy from John) every other day. Is this good enough for the type of shrimps i have (ie, these are not crystals or fancy shrimps)? I also have spirulina and bloodworm pellets i have, i dont know if i should alternate or not. Is feeding every other day ok, or should i have a different interval for shrimps.

Q3:
Also, i have a baby SAE (1 inch) which i am quarantining in my shrimp tank for a month or 2, before upgrading it to a large 75 gallon tank. I am considering getting maybe 2-3 Oto catfish, but dont know if they will get depressed because they are not the minimum 6 amount. Do anyone here have experience with Oto catfish in low numbers (2 - 3)? Are they any fun (i am only home in the evening / night)? I was thinking of getting them from menagerie. I know they are well compatible with the shrimps, so that was a plus. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## manmadecorals (Jan 17, 2012)

Are you going for an Iwagumi tank, if so i would recommend the Hydor Inline Heater. I had the exact same problem as you do now and was recommended that heater. I have a 10gal Starfire tank and the heaters just made it look messy. I also have too many things hanging on the side of the tank so that was the best option for me to go. Here is a picture of the heater.

Unfortunately i haven't taken a picture of it since i had the new heater installed, but you can also check my 10gal starfire journal to see what it looked like before.

I got the heater from Angelfins. They have the best price for that heater in the GTA. You can also order it from the States if you plan on crossing the border in the near future. Hope that helps


----------



## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

zfarsh said:


> Q2:
> Also, i am currently putting 1 veggie sticks with calcium for shrimp sticks (which i buy from John) every other day. Is this good enough for the type of shrimps i have (ie, these are not crystals or fancy shrimps)? I also have spirulina and bloodworm pellets i have, i dont know if i should alternate or not. Is feeding every other day ok, or should i have a different interval for shrimps.
> 
> Q3:
> ...


The food you are feeding is fine 
You might want to switch it up between blanched zucchini or baby spinach sometimes. Gives them a bit of variety.

For the otto's, I had about 2-3 in a tank before. They seemed fine


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

@manhtu: 
Thanks for the suggestion, that seems as the best way to go if I had a Cannister filter. I dont currently, but if i do switch to it, i may do so. Right now i have a HOB. 

@Jaysan:
Thanks for the suggestions. Were your otos somewhat active and did they keep cleaning the tank, or did they become lazy as time went on and only eat commercial food? BTW, which heater will you be using in your nice Starfire shrimp tank? I bought some mini-pellia to i just put in my dragon rocks, tried to put them in the holes as much as possible, hopefully they will "stick" to it soon, specially the ones that are not tighly in, cause its hard to make movement in the tank, specially when i want to clean the debris.


----------



## manmadecorals (Jan 17, 2012)

in that case check out the marina compact heaters. Nothing fancy...very simple and slightly more affordable


----------



## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

zfarsh said:


> @Jaysan:
> Thanks for the suggestions. Were your otos somewhat active and did they keep cleaning the tank, or did they become lazy as time went on and only eat commercial food? BTW, which heater will you be using in your nice Starfire shrimp tank? I bought some mini-pellia to i just put in my dragon rocks, tried to put them in the holes as much as possible, hopefully they will "stick" to it soon, specially the ones that are not tighly in, cause its hard to make movement in the tank, specially when i want to clean the debris.


The ottos kept at it until I got rid of them. Might actually get some more, but the zebra pattern 

The heater I use is just a regular heater. Something that can maintain the tank above 20 degrees and below 25 degrees.


----------



## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

rule of thumb is 1 otto per 10G


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

does anyone know where i can get zebra oto, they look wonderfull


----------



## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

They get them in at the Menagerie sometimes.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I think I saw some Zebra Otos, I think actually they called 'em Tiger Otos, at Aquatic Kingdom last week, if I'm not mistaken. I have the other ones, and from the first batch I got, of six, I eventually lost four of those, about six weeks after I got them, they just started showing up dead, one after another. One got a bright red blotch on his belly, which was probably an infection, but he died before I had a chance to try to treat it. 

The two who remained of that batch are doing fine now after several months, but they only come out at night, not in the day, I think they're too shy with only a pair. So I got some more Otos to keep them company, but it's only been ten days and I am waiting to see how they make out. The problem is they are caught in the wild using cyanide to stun them. That on top of the stress and shipping and all weakens them to the point that they often do not survive for long. It is a shame and I would much rather buy tank raised Otos, but they don't breed often in tanks, nor are they bred commercially. They are also often starving when you get them, as fish stores don't often feed them what they need. Algae is what they need.. if not fresh in your tank, then algae tabs or pellets, blanched spinach or romaine. Lots of places to hide, the more they have, the more likely you are to see them out, because they feel safe. 

They do not bother any other fish or shrimp that I have ever seen, and I keep them with many shrimp. If there is fresh green algae on anything they'll be busy eating it.. they don't eat the brown stuff. Fun to watch, lovely little fish, it is just sad that their survival is so chancy. One site I've read recommends giving them medication as soon as you get them, for parasites and bacterial infection, whether they appear ill nor not. The theory is that because of all the things that happen to them along the way, anything they may be carrying from their native waters may be able to take over, as their immune systems are so compromised. In their native waters they'd be able to fight these off, but once caught, they're not able to fight so well. Treating them right after you get them is likely worth trying.. I'm going to try it myself.


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks Fishfur, i had hurd similar stories before and had halted my search for otos, but when i saw some people were successfull with them, i thought about giving it a try, Hopefully, the ones from Menageries will be better quality, or that my chance will be better. I dont know much about what medications to feed the oto when first getting them, so i was just going to send them in the shrimp tanks and wait and see.


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I just found that WetWebMedia has some great info on them, very much worth reading. Their opinion is that meds are pointless, because the main issue is that the fish starve in transit, as they're held for long periods of time before shipping. This makes them terribly weak, and compromised immune systems go with this.

They need to eat a lot for their size, as they actually can't digest algae, rather, they have symbiotic bacteria in their guts that digest it, and pass on the nutrients. Those bacteria mostly starve to death in transit and there simply may not be enough left when the fish are finally fed properly, for them to get any nutrients. So they can die with a full belly, from lack of bacteria to work for them. It's really stacked against the poor fish.

They badly need plenty of fresh, soft green algae, the kind that grows on tank walls and rocks.. not hair, not brown, not blue green. They also need wood, they like to chew on it and feed from it. One expert's opinion is that they are Aufwuchs feeders, [ hope I spelled that properly], that is, they graze on algae mats and consume the tiny animal organisms that live in the algae mats. So they may need some meaty foods too.. some have been known to take the odd bloodworm.. so growing algae for them is by far the best way to feed them.

Then they need they need many places to hide and a minimum group of 3 will be ok. And the one thing I learned I am doing more or less right, is they need cooler temperatures, around 22 - 24 C, and a fairly strong current, with high oxygen levels in their water, which is not something you see in most shrimp tanks. Otos are also super sensitive to any level of nitrite or ammonia, and high nitrates too.

WetWeb advise not buying Otos that have not been in the store tank for at least a couple of weeks. By then the weakest ones will have died off. Also never take an Oto that does not have a nice round belly.. if it's flat or concave it is starving and soon to die. And don't buy one that's lying by itself, it's another poor sign, as they like to be within inches of their pals.

They can live from 5 - 9 years, if they survive the first several months after capture, provided they are well fed and their other needs are met. They are not the best fish for tropical tanks, but do like softer water than what we have in the GTA, and a Ph around 6.8 or so. They do better with fish that like cooler temps, like Danios, for example. They can adapt to our water conditions if the param's are kept stable, but are less likely to breed in it.. though that does not happen often anyway. WetWeb also say it's best that they be the only algae eaters in a tank, as they can't compete with loaches, plecs or cories, who will bully the Otos away from food. Otos won't fight for food.

So if you can provide high oxygen levels, cooler temperatures than the average tropical tank and a good moving current in the water, along with enough of the right food, you have a fair shot at keeping them alive, if they were in good enough shape when you got them to recover from the stress of capture/shipping, etc.

I wish I had seen all this before I got the second batch of them myself. I would have done several things differently than I have done. So for now, I've got a bunch of rocks in a jar full of tank water sitting in the sun, hoping to grow a crop of algae on the rocks. which I will then give the Otos. Meanwhile, I have seaweed, the algae tabs, as well as blanched spinach and other greens. You can leave pieces of greens in a tank for about two days, but after that remove anything uneaten before it rots. Snails will like this sort of thing too. Fill in with good quality algae tabs, Nori sheets from an Asian market or Omega One Green Seaweed sheets until you can provide fresh algae.

Read WetWeb, they answer questions at no charge, if you can't find your answer already on site, and give wonderful advice. All they ask is please try to find the answer before you write, they get a huge volume of mail The sad thing is, the majority of wild caught Otos will probably die long before their time, and because they don't cost a fortune, people just replace them when they do, without ever understanding why it happened. This would include me, though I hope I have learned enough now not to repeat my mistakes of the past.


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

wow, thanks for the very nice post Fishfur, that is very much appreciated.

Now, if i were to put the chili rasboras in my 10g tank, i would need a heater set to temp at min of 23C, so it seems still possible.

Then, you mentioned current, that can be a problem for the moment, but maybe resolvable, however, maybe in a spot only. The other alternative is for me to put them in my 75g tank, but there is fancy goldfish in it, and i am not 100% sure if the goldfish will not "accidentaly" goble it, but i have hurd some good stories there.

Now the food, i have some green alga on one of my walls in my 10g, but wish i kept the other side unclean too....

I will have to research it more i guess...


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, the one good thing is that Otos and shrimp do get along nicely, because Otos won't bother shrimp at all, not even tiny babies. You could probably get enough current going without actually blowing the shrimp around too much. My 30G has a Koralia Nano, the smallest one.. and even my Snowballs seemed to enjoy swimming in that current, but I have it aimed at an end wall, attached to the rear wall, pointing down a bit, and by the time the current gets to the other tank end, it's not even moving the plants a whole lot, and the Otos seem to like that. My new ones are out and about, so far, cleaning off a bolbitis fern I got with some algae on it, and my jar of rocks is already beginning to get a very slight tinge of green. So perhaps mine will live this time, I sure hope so. And if you decide to get them, at least you will be armed with enough information that they should have as good a shot at survival as is possible given the way they are currently harvested. If I ever have a chance to buy tank raised Otos, that would be ideal.. they'd never have been through these wretched experiences.


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

hi fishfur, thanks for all the suggestions, i went and bought 3 normal Otos from Aquatic Kingdom, just couldnt resist. If I am successfull, i may give them away and try the expensive zebra (tiger) ones.


----------



## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

Sorry to hijack  but did they have any tiger otos left there? And did you notice how much they were?
Thanks Matt


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

they had 1 tiger oto left, and it was 10 $. I was in the store at around 7:30 pm. It might be another 2 weeks before they get more, not sure, but i know there has been many deaths before at reception on many fishes, so that was unfortunate. If they had 2 - 3, i may have chanced it, but didnt want to keep the oto lonely.


----------



## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks, I have 3 already I got from the Menagerie.


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

how much were they at menagerie?


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

btw, does anyone know if the different kind act as if they are the same kind, as in socializing. So say i had one of each, 1 normal, 1 tiger, would they consider each other as same species in terms of being in a group?


----------



## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

zfarsh said:


> how much were they at menagerie?


They were 10 or 12 I can't remember which. If you buy like six or more they give you a better deal.


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I lost all 3 Otos within days, and i think i had the right conditions, specially the algua on walls and on some plants.... I will give it one more try maybe, but i will only buy from Menagerie and if it has been there at least 3 weeks...

Also, sad thing i did not expect, my baby SAE jumped out yesterday and died (had it for 2 weeks). I dont have a lid for my shrimp tank, but i can maybe do something about the 10 gallon to give less chance in the futur, just dont know what will happen when i put in my 75g where "closing" it will be much harder. I did not have a heater inside, the filter is well over what is required, but flow is not too high. Maybe it felt lonely, so next time i will get two.

was quiete disapointed at my recent failures, never had such things happen on my goldfish, white mountain minnows, guppies, bn pleco, or shrimps (expect fan shrimps, they jumped out too when i had them long ago....).


----------



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Try making a screen top, if a solid one is too much to deal with. You can get nylon window screen that's easy to cut with scissors.. maybe some cord to hold it on ? Could also make a wood frame for it and paint or varnish it, but that's a bit more effort, still, not too expensive and it stops the suicides. Going to do one myself, as I have also had a fan shrimp go 'carpet surfing', sadly.


----------

