# Biowheel VS Aquaclear



## Spicoli (Dec 11, 2012)

Having owned multiple filter sizes and types i've come to the conclusion there is no reason whatsoever to buy marineland biowheel filters over the AC equivalent.


Am I crazy? I just cant see a single advantage over the AC at all.

So here is the question. Which HOB filter do you prefer and why.

I like ac because they are quiet and last forever and media is cheap and versatile.


----------



## greg (Apr 29, 2012)

I use AquaClear's in a number of tanks. I like the fact that the media can easily be replaced by whatever suits me - usually poret foam. Initially I often put in some media from existing tanks to get the bacteria load started. I also often use some filter wool at the beginning if my Seachem sand has clouded up a bit. Everything is swapped in and out easily which is great.

Greg


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

+1 for AC filters, so much cheaper media wise and more options.

Does anyone know of another HOB that lets you use media like AC filters?


----------



## Spicoli (Dec 11, 2012)

pyrrolin said:


> +1 for AC filters, so much cheaper media wise and more options.
> 
> Does anyone know of another HOB that lets you use media like AC filters?


Pretty sure the fluval C series hobs can be customized like teh ac but are more expensive and i've never tried one personally


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I use AC filters only for HOB. 

Note: I have some impellers that broke after time, but after cleaning the interior parts, most of them are still running no problem, though sometimes they had made louder noises and took some time fixing. I only bought 1 new, all rest all used from other members in this forum. I have 1x AC110, 2x AC70, 2x AC50, 1x AC20, and most of them have now my own high grade sponges, but the ones that come with them are crap, and wear out very quickly. I also have filter floss and biomedia in many of them. I have two canister filters, one Eheim 2217, and one Eheim 2213, which are good filters to use in parallel with the HOB filter I find personally. All these have a high quality that allows for many years of service and gives plenty of flexibility. The AC can get loud in the life, and cleaning or changing impellers / others may be required at some point. I honestly wouldn't pick up anything else in the HOB department until I find a better brand, that allow easier control of outflow as standard.


----------



## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

I like the AC's and only use them. They're cheap a easy to clean. 

The only issue I have with them is the impellers shafts ware out quickly and get stuck in the motor making it almost impossible to remove. Then you're stuck having to possibly buy a new motor unless you manage to get the little piece of metal that stuck in there out.


----------



## Jeff B (Jul 27, 2010)

Spicoli said:


> Having owned multiple filter sizes and types i've come to the conclusion there is no reason whatsoever to buy marineland biowheel filters over the AC equivalent.
> 
> Am I crazy? I just cant see a single advantage over the AC at all.
> 
> ...


Coincidentally I randomly came across this article last night when searching for somehing else: Do Bio Wheels really work? Bio-Wheel Review
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/do-bio-wheels-really-work.html

I'm not sure how biased the reviews on that sight are. The points made seem valid but there seems to be some steering towards certain products.

I use Aquaclears with sponges and Seachem Matrix. No filter cartridges to buy and replace. I just give them a squeeze and a rinse in tank water every couple of weeks to keep them clear then pop them back in.


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

I like the AC's because of the media space. They've never failed on me thus far and I still have several of them going. I do however use biowheels as well, mainly because the wheels themselves are interchangeable for the most part (to other filters with the same size). 

On my one biowheel filter, I have 2 actual bio wheels, so this allows me to seed one tank, and barely affect the main system.


Hard to say whats best. Just to get somebody annoyed at my favorite filter choice I'll say whisper and topfin HOB's lmao


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I wouldnt get a topfin even if it was free! actually the only HOB I will use no matter if free or not is AC or if there is something just like it.


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

I used to take them for free when the spares broke down at petsmart. Only for the magnetic piece and the tubing though so I could use them on other filters if I ever needed to lol... So far, I've thrown everything topfin filter wish out lol


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

My first kit was a 55 gallon topfin kit and the filter didnt even last a year before it broke down. Probably didn't help that I didn't know what I was doing either but still.....


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

I have seen another member liking the whispair, and I am just curious why when comparing it to the AC?


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Jeff B said:


> Coincidentally I randomly came across this article last night when searching for somehing else: Do Bio Wheels really work? Bio-Wheel Review
> http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/do-bio-wheels-really-work.html
> 
> I'm not sure how biased the reviews on that sight are. The points made seem valid but there seems to be some steering towards certain products.
> ...


Hey, thanks for posting, interesting read, but I am not sure if the writer is biased and wants to sell their products or not, which is kind of what I got the feeling when reading some of the other articles. In any case, I unfortunately don't have any dedicated sponge filters in any of my tanks, as there is simply no room , I do however have sponge pre-filters on all my filters, so hopefully that is as good (or at least compensates somewhat for it).


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

AC filters are kinda like canister filters in a way. You can pick and choose what media you want to use. The standard setup is a sponge, bio media and carbon. All 3 parts are separate so you can just use sponge and bio media if you want, or double up on bio media.

Another great advantage is you can simply reuse the sponge and bio media for a long time. Rinse the sponge in old tank water so you don't kill off all the bacteria and the bio media can last for years, if it needs a cleaning, just rinse in used tank water a little.

Many of us don't use carbon, this means we almost never have to buy replacement media with our AC filters.

Most HOB's use cartridges that are filter floss with carbon inside which you have to replace about every 6 weeks and the cost adds up. Also when you use a filter that only uses a cartridge you lose alot of BB when you replace it.

If you want to use filter floss in an AC filter, you can just buy it at a craft store and add it in, very cheap.

Another thing is you see many many very old AC filters around, you don't see very old filters of other types as much. This, to me, means they last. I have every size but the 30 and I love them.


----------



## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

zfarsh said:


> I have seen another member liking the whispair, and I am just curious why when comparing it to the AC?


Lol I said it to be funny. Honestly I'm on the fence about the 2. Bios are great, so are ACs. I especially like that I can use an AC as a mini-refegium on my SW lol

And the same thing can be said about the Biowheels well... Biowheel, it's great for holding the bacteria and containing it when changing the media. They've fixed the issue with the filter floss by this feature. AC's do have the advantage it seems though.


----------



## Jeff B (Jul 27, 2010)

Ryan.Wilton said:


> I like the AC's because of the media space. They've never failed on me thus far and I still have several of them going. I do however use biowheels as well, mainly because the wheels themselves are interchangeable for the most part (to other filters with the same size).
> 
> On my one biowheel filter, I have 2 actual bio wheels, so this allows me to seed one tank, and barely affect the main system.
> 
> Hard to say whats best. Just to get somebody annoyed at my favorite filter choice I'll say whisper and topfin HOB's lmao


Someone I know bought a topfin 10 gal starter kit with clown vomit gravel and incandescent bulbs (temp was 86) two fluorescent plastic plants and no background. I was visiting and look at the tank and its poor distressed residents. How long did you cycle for? I said give it few weeks or at least get the pet store to give you a squeeze of filter water to seed your tank. "Oh the guy at the store said four days is fine and he must know what he's doing" (I was an aquatic biologist, had aquariums for years and also worked on a fish farm, so what would I know?). That guy also sold you two male guppys, two male platys and two female platys to put in an uncycled tank and the females had already been chased to death.

Then I looked at the topfin 10 filter and felt sad. It had a tiny disposable carbon and floss pad in it and that was it. I gave them some aquaclear filter media and told them to pack as much in the top fin as they could, stock lightly and water change immediately then frequently. I also said sorry to the fish and got out of there.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Just remember, most of us had no clue at all when starting out. It wasn't until I started researching online like this forum that I finally understood stuff like the cycle. Now I am the person giving advice and have more tanks than sense.


----------



## Jeff B (Jul 27, 2010)

pyrrolin said:


> Just remember, most of us had no clue at all when starting out. It wasn't until I started researching online like this forum that I finally understood stuff like the cycle. Now I am the person giving advice and have more tanks than sense.


Yes, but I explained cycling and why and what fish would or not work and why all before they started and then they ignored the advice they had asked for. The tank is better cared for now but several fish had to pay the price before they made the changes needed.

Nobody knows what they are doing at first but if someone who does is trying to help it is a good idea to listen. My current tank is my first live plant attempt and though I knew how to look after fish I asked lots of questions and did lots of reading before I got started because avoiding the simple mistakes made the tank much more enjoyable to look after.

Anyway, getting back to filters, the manufacturers do themselves and their customers a real disservice by labeling the filters with names and specs that are really the maximum size of tank they could handle. So people with a 30 gal tank will buy an AC 30 and think that they should be adequately filtered. Yes, if you stock light and change water frequently, but what average new fishkeeper does that? For $5 more you can upgrade to an AC 50 and up your filtration by 67%. If you didn't know better though you would think it was overkill because "The box says 30 gallons." So some people will think "the filter is crap" because it can't handle the advertized tank size, even though experienced fishkeepers know not to trust those numbers because they are only based on the number of gallons per hour of water going through the filter and not what media is in the filter or any other tank specifics.

I would not use a topfin 10 as the only filter for anything over 5 gal. Even then, I would pack it with some other type of biological media. When you can spend $5 more for an AC 20 or $10 more for an AC 30 and not have to buy throwaway filter inserts that go it the garbage with your beneficial bacteria it doesn't make economic or filtration sense.


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Jeff B said:


> Anyway, getting back to filters, the manufacturers do themselves and their customers a real disservice by labeling the filters with names and specs that are really the maximum size of tank they could handle. So people with a 30 gal tank will buy an AC 30 and think that they should be adequately filtered. Yes, if you stock light and change water frequently, but what average new fishkeeper does that? For $5 more you can upgrade to an AC 50 and up your filtration by 67%. If you didn't know better though you would think it was overkill because "The box says 30 gallons." So some people will think "the filter is crap" because it can't handle the advertized tank size, even though experienced fishkeepers know not to trust those numbers because they are only based on the number of gallons per hour of water going through the filter and not what media is in the filter or any other tank specifics.


Is this in fact true? I see it often, in this and other forums. Clearly the average forum user knows more about filtration than the manufacturers. Or do they? A filter needs to be adequate whether you change water frequently or not. Filters are basically nitrate factories, and if you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite, you have adequate filtration. Adding more filtration will not lessen the need or frequency of water changes. Other factors need to be considered, and one is that every hard surface in the tank becomes a part of the filtration, whether you want it to or not. Assuming adequate filtration, adding a second filter means the work will be divided up between the two.
I wonder how filter manufacturers stay in business, since everyone with any experience seems to believe filters are over rated by the manufacturers.
So, let us look at some examples of recommendations often seen on forums. An FX5 for a 75 is one I see often. The filter is rated by Hagen for a much larger tank. I have even seen where some people have two on a 75. Conversely, I have seen a colony of 25 Tropheus adequately maintained in a 65, and 75 with only an AC 500. Same size colonies and same filtration on a 125. Healthy fish breeding regularly. When Lee Finley from the Vancouver Aquarium spoke at our dinner a few years ago, about Satanaperca, he had shots of his 180, filtered by one AC 500/110. Way under filtered if you go by comments on forums. I can only surmise that if you repeat something enough times it becomes true. This has taken on a life of it's own, where I often see that you MUST have 10X turnover, which more often than not is double the manufacturers recommendation. If that were in fact true, why is it that a Hamburg/mattenfilter requires (recommended) only a 1 to 1.5X turnover? What about all the people running entire fish rooms on nothing but air driven sponge filters?
Bottom line is that if the ammonia and nitrite is 0, the filter is adequate, regardless of the flow rate, so called turnover rate, brand, or type.
I am not saying you shouldn't have more filtration than the minimum, or redundancy, if it makes you feel better. It is just that there is so much illogical nonsense being repeated on forums that isn't being questioned.Make your decisions based on what is true not just what is stated on forums (yes, I know I am stating this on a forum).
Personally, if I had $200 to spend it wouldn't be on a filter, it would be on a new 75, filter, lights, substrate and stand.


----------



## greg (Apr 29, 2012)

BillD said:


> Bottom line is that if the ammonia and nitrite is 0, the filter is adequate, regardless of the flow rate, so called turnover rate, brand, or type.


Very good points you make.

I've had as many as 70 2cm bristlenose fry in a 10g tank with only a 4" poret air driven sponge filter. Ammonia and nitrites were always 0. We have not had any disease or deaths in the tank. So as you say the filtration is adequate. We did a quick vacuum of the tank bottom each day which kept nitrates under 10. If we had doubled up to a 20g then we could have vacuumed every second day and so on.

So as you say, if the filtration takes care of ammonia and nitrites, then its adequate. Nitrate management is up to tank size and the manner in which the tank is cared for by the hobbyist.

Regarding the 10x turnover - which is usually associated with a planted tank, I thought this had more to do with nutrient and CO2 distribution, as opposed to the nitrogen cycle?

Greg


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

control ammonia, nitrites and provide enough circulation for the needs if no other circulation pump is used. The 10 x thing is for planted tanks


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

The 10X turnover is pretty much accepted as a minimum by many especially for a cichlid tank. I had this discussion on cichlid forum a while ago, and turnover is taken as the flow rate divided by the tank size. That is, a 75 gallon tank would need a flow rate of at least 750 gallons per hour. I proposed that the turnover rate would, in fact be related to how long it took to pass all the water through the tank once. For example, if it took 1 hour to pass all the water through the filter once (not just 75 gallons), it would be 1X, regardless of what the flow was. I thought that this would be an easy thing to test.If you put a measured amount of ammonia into a tank, measured the ppm, and observed by regular periodic testing how long it took to reduce the ammonia to 0, this would be one turnover. This would require a filter cycled to the max, clean of all solid debris, and in a tank that was totally clean so there was no resident bio bacteria, other than in the filter. This to me would be a more meaningful number, than flow rate and turnover, for a given filter. The time of course would vary depending on tank size and dimensions. It would be more variable, perhaps for cannisters since there is more variance on placement of intake and out flow, than something like an AC with it's fixed intake.


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

It isn't just the flow rate, it is the amount of media, so basically how long is each particle of ammonia in the filter where the bacteria can eat it.

My view is if you have a large amount of space in the filter for media, you don't need as much of a flow.

you also want enough flow to properly circulate the water so it all does get to the filter.

I have a theory, if you have a low flowing filter but have a good circulation pump, you are fine.

Beside me I have a 5.5 gallon betta tank with AC 20 on it. The filter is way more than enough as a bio filter but I have had to really fine tune where I have the filter on the back of the tank to get proper flow throughout the tank. I do have the filter turned down to the lowest flow possible for the Betta. My only problem has been BGA which I think I have now fixed with positioning the filter for flow throughout the tank.

I guess it is all about balance


----------



## Jeff B (Jul 27, 2010)

Good points. If the ammonia and nitrite are both zero then the filter is adequate. I agree. As long as you stay on top of everything else the tank should be fine.

I prefer to have more filtration to give my tank a bit more stability. If I add fish, or something dies undetected in the back corner the water has more filter media surface area flow through to convert to ammonia out. With two ACs with AC sponges as pre-filters I also have lots of backup biological filtration if I am cleaning one or one breaks down. ACs are not very expensive over their lifetime because you almost never need to change the media or sponges so two is not a big investment.

Water changes are still more important than any filter but why not give yourself some wiggle room?

Some manufacturers seem to just base their filters rated capacity on gallons per hour divided by five. So a topfin 30 and an AC 30 are both supposed to be able to filter a 30 gal tank because they move 150 gph. But there is no way that a skinny topfin cartridge is doing as much as all the media in an AC.

In a cheaply made filter like a topfin you will reduce your biological filtration capacity every time you throw out the filter cartridge. The only advantage of this is that whatever waste is stuck to the pad is removed from the tank, but you can do the same by rinsing AC media in a bucket of tank water without losing your bacteria (even though the instructions tell you to replace the sponge every two months and the media every three that's just to sell you product). So for cheaply made filters I would still say that they are labelled at higher capacities than they should be used for.


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi Bill, thanks for sharing. I have a question. You mentioned that over filtration will increase the Nitrate, I think. Why is this? Is it because there is too much beneficial bacteria?

Also, a general question to all, for a planted tank. If Amonia and Nitrate are the only concerns for a filter, than at what point do you consider the Nitrate in a well planted tank to be too much for a fish?


----------



## greg (Apr 29, 2012)

zfarsh said:


> Hi Bill, thanks for sharing. I have a question. You mentioned that over filtration will increase the Nitrate, I think. Why is this? Is it because there is too much beneficial bacteria?
> 
> Also, a general question to all, for a planted tank. If Amonia and Nitrate are the only concerns for a filter, than at what point do you consider the Nitrate in a well planted tank to be too much for a fish?


The whole goal of freshwater filtration is to produce nitrates. The faster the better. This is because you want to eliminate harmful ammonia and nitrites quickly by converting them to the less harmful nitrates. Nitrates are kept in control by not overstocking and overfeeding and through water changes. I think most planted tank keepers aim for around 15ppm nitrates, since the plants do need some nitrogen to thrive.

You cannot have too much beneficial bacteria. If you decrease your fish load or increase rate of water change so that there is not enough ammonia and nitrites to support current population of beneficial bacteria, the excess will just die off.

Greg


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

thanks Greg, so why would nitrates go up if you have more filters?


----------



## greg (Apr 29, 2012)

zfarsh said:


> thanks Greg, so why would nitrates go up if you have more filters?


They won't go up due to more filters. The rate at which the filters convert ammonia and nitrites could increase, because if you have too little bio-media surface area coming in contact with your water, it may take more passes through the filter to convert all the ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. However, since ultimately nitrates are limited by the amount of ammonia and nitrites, you won't reach a higher nitrate level with more filters, you will just reach the the point at which everything is converted more quickly.

edit: So up to a certain point more filter media is good as you can convert the harmful substances more quickly. However, as BillD points out, it requires very little filter media to keep most tanks at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. As I mentioned in a previous example, I had 70 small bristlenose plecos in a 10g tank with only a small sponge filter and never had a trace of ammonia or nitrites. Adding more filter media wouldn't improve the situation in any measurable way.

Greg


----------



## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

thanks for the clarification Greg


----------



## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

+1 on all the correct info


----------

