# angel deaths



## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

hey there gang , within the last two weeks i have lost 3 longfin veil angels ,i have no idea why ,they loooked absolutly normal , now with the last angel i did notice his/her belly somewhat swollen but saw nothing else
i change water weekely i am runing eheim 2213 and a hob filter i think its a magnum not sure if thats the correct name of it , it is a 40 gal tank ,planted tank , treating with prime and with some flourish for plants .no other deaths in tank other than the angels.
i tstd my water and the only thing abnormal was the p.h which was a 7.0 everything else was 0. 
perplexxed here i dont see anything with the other fish, any ideas 
hope someone can give me an idea 
thanks 
tom


----------



## 1nvad3r (Jan 12, 2010)

you mentioned about your ph being abnormal. What is your usual ph in your tank ? i wouldnt even worry with that ph value. My guess on your deaths is Ph swings after a water change or overfeeding/bloat. Overfeeding will polute your water in planted tank causes you to get ammonia spikes. Bloated stomach could also mean internal bacterial in your fish. If your fish eyes are cloudy and potruding out its definately internal bacteria. IF not treat with Epsom salt in 4 hours it should poop it out whatever is blocking the stomach.add Epsom salt to the tank at 1 level tablespoon per 10 gallons

You also said you treat with prime,do you also age your water before using ? I would do another test on your water parameters , sometimes the test kits are old and wont give you good results. If recently bought your water test kit then you should be ok.

HTH
GL bro


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

You shouldn't keep a single clown loach and clown loaches need, ideally, a six foot tank with temps in the mid 80s and tonnes of current. You can accomplish an identical result with a school of corydoras catfish, or, if you have a thing for loaches, a smaller, better suited loach, in a group of perhaps five, such as kubotai (polkadot loach)
As per the angels, if you could post a picture of the ones you still have alive I might be able to help. Can you give any more information about the tank and fish? What do you feed? What's in your filters? Everything you can think of will help.


----------



## fishclubgirl (Mar 4, 2010)

Another suggestion would be to watch them; I had 2 types of juvie angels together and one group was kicking the crap out of the other. Had to move the remnants of the one group and no other angels are going in with the "thugs".


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Angels wont kill eachother in the same size range until you reach about 6" total height. Large established angels will attack and may kill small angels. It is very uncommon for similarly sized younger angels to beat eachother or stress eachother to the point of death. I've never seen it. They definitely have a hierarchy and a certain individual or group may end up being at the absolute bottom and get beat up and chased frequently but in the grand scope of things it isn't that severe as fish go and in the worst case the only result is typically a slower growth rate as the 'loser' fish get less food.


----------



## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I have had small angels ( Loonie size) attack and kill their siblings. I had one batch of 6 golds, where one was absolutely vicious, and constantly tore at the rest until there were 2 left. In addition, I have seen where one will drive another out of the tank.
I have had over the years unexplained angel deaths with no symptoms preceding the deaths.


----------



## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

I think we need a little more information,

1. How long did you have the angels?

2. How much water do you change a week? how soon after water change did they die?

3. How do you change the water, Hose/Bucket/ is the water temperature the same as the tank water.

4. What were you feeding, how often ?

5. How were the angels acting just before their death? did they hang out at the top of the tank?

6. what are the other tank mates?

7. What is tank temp?

8. do you have Co2?

40 gallons is a little on the small side for 3 Adult angels 

But not impossible.

I hope we can figure this out.

Sorry to hear about your loss.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

We do need clarification of how big they were and what else is in the tank. Not enough info just frustrates people having to ask followup questions. That's why I made the help us help you sticky two years ago.


----------



## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*angels*

age-6 months approx 2.0 in body diam all similar sizes plus /minus .5 inch
30 percent water change weekly 
feed twice daily - mid day dry flakes / nite time blood worms / and periodic brine shrimp
tank occupents ghost knife ,rosy barbs/4, plecos/3,gouramis/2, 
planted tank
82 deg
no co2
ehiem 2213
magnum hob filter


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

tom g said:


> age-6 months approx 2.0 in body diam all similar sizes plus /minus .5 inch
> 30 percent water change weekly
> feed twice daily - mid day dry flakes / nite time blood worms / and periodic brine shrimp
> tank occupents ghost knife ,rosy barbs/4, plecos/3,gouramis/2,
> ...


So 50% of their diet is bloodworm? Cuzz that's not good for them. Not to suggest this was the cause of death but that's definitely too much insect protein not enough fiber. Are all the dead fish really swollen in the abdomen? Did you keep one? If so do you know how to dissect it to check the digestive system for ruptures or blockage?

Its one avenue we can pursue for now. Your aquarium seems ok otherwise-- unless these gouramis are threespots, snakeskins, or moonlights.


----------



## blackninja (Dec 3, 2009)

tom g said:


> age-6 months approx 2.0 in body diam all similar sizes plus /minus .5 inch
> 30 percent water change weekly
> feed twice daily - mid day dry flakes / nite time blood worms / and periodic brine shrimp
> tank occupents ghost knife ,rosy barbs/4, plecos/3,gouramis/2,
> ...


I think Tom at 2" those Angels were still very susceptible to water conditions and proper tank mates.Next to discus fish the angelfish need a stable environment and tanks mates that are less aggressive because they are slow movers and cannot get to the food when surrounded by faster more agile fish. The only way they can get to the food is if you are overfeeding to allow for their slower movement and that pollutes the water which only compounds the problem. Start with healthy Angellfish because they are also very prone to parasites and other diseases.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

blackninja said:


> I think Tom at 2" those Angels were still very susceptible to water conditions and proper tank mates.Next to discus fish the angelfish need a stable environment and tanks mates that are less aggressive because they are slow movers and cannot get to the food when surrounded by faster more agile fish. The only way they can get to the food is if you are overfeeding to allow for their slower movement and that pollutes the water which only compounds the problem. Start with healthy Angellfish because they are also very prone to parasites and other diseases.


Water conditions not so much. Tank mates yes. Angelfish are very easy to screw up but not that easy to kill. Certainly nowhere near discus. There are about 100 fish between discus and angels sensitivity wise, and much more sensitive FW fish than discus.


----------



## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

no i dont have the bodies still , i have never diseceted a fish before . so if i am overfeeding them too much what would be a proper feeding schedule and what should i be feeding them , do i have to wean them off the feeding schedule i have them on now . and if it is the bloodworms and tehy are having too much insect diet , why are the otehr fish not dying .
thanks 
tom


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

tom g said:


> no i dont have the bodies still , i have never diseceted a fish before . so if i am overfeeding them too much what would be a proper feeding schedule and what should i be feeding them , do i have to wean them off the feeding schedule i have them on now . and if it is the bloodworms and tehy are having too much insect diet , why are the otehr fish not dying .
> thanks
> tom


It has to do with the fish's natural diet and what it can digest. Angelfish eat small fish. They need some kind of fish protein as a large chunk of their diet. 
Something like mostly new life spectrum pellets with about 10% mysis shrimp is a simple diet that works well for angels. They prefer the 'finicky fish formula' which is a higher quality formula anyways, and not particularly expensive. Most fish prefer it actually.

Something like a blue paradise fish, living in shallow relatively still water is going to catch a lot of bugs. A lake Tanganyika Goby Cichlid eats mostly algae. Angels stalk small fish. You always get the best results by giving consideration to the fish's natural diet. You can feed some bloodworm to angelfish, it just shouldn't be very much. Certainly not a 'meal'. Maybe five percent of their diet at the absolute most in my opinion. I've been feeding the New Life Spectrum 0.5 and 1.0mm pellets to everything for about four years now. Everything does well on it. It's not a spectacular or specialized formula but it gets the job done. I feed Finicky fish formula 1mm as a staple to odessa barbs, a cichlid related to the convict, black paradise fish and assassin snails and they're all doing well. They're not finicky, I just prefer to see Mussel/Krill/Herring/Amino acid over Krill meal/Herring meal/Flour in the first few ingredients and apparently fish do too.

You can keep a horse a duck and a pig in the same general area and they won't really bother eachother, but if you feed them all duck food you'll run into problems- so you find the thing that they can all eat relatively well, some kind of Horseduckpig food, and it works out. *(This is a metaphor for an aquarium that has gone horribly wrong). Most fish foods are basically Horseduckpig food, for example, New Life Spectrum's cichlid formula, is formulated mainly with malawi cichlids in mind, and formulated so that either herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous fish can eat it and they will be fine. However, if you feed herbivorous fish a herbivorous fish specific food and carnivores a carnivore specific food you get better results. The thing is you can't do this in a community tank-- so you need to find a common ground.

A good point to follow with all fish though is to maintain a minimum 2.5, and ideally 3-4% fiber in your fish's diet.


----------



## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*deaths*

hey there guys thanks for all the help.now in the same tank i have a gourami death not sure if this is a coincidence or something is wrong with my tank 
again i tstd water 
and i get the same numbers as my tst before 
p.h is 7.2
amonia /0
nitrite/0
nitrate /0

what should i do the fish all look healthy 
should i do more frequent water changes like every other day 
should i domore then my 30 percent 
should i take apart eheim and clean it was cleaned two months ago way before deaths 
anyone with any ideas
help
thanks 
tom


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

tom g said:


> hey there guys thanks for all the help.now in the same tank i have a gourami death not sure if this is a coincidence or something is wrong with my tank
> again i tstd water
> and i get the same numbers as my tst before
> p.h is 7.2
> ...


Do you dose any fertilizers or anything?

If I were in your situation, I'd throw all your fish food and water conditioner in the garbage and replace as a first course of action.


----------



## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> Do you dose any fertilizers or anything?
> 
> If I were in your situation, I'd throw all your fish food and water conditioner in the garbage and replace as a first course of action.


Wait a minute don't do anything rash.

If you are feeding and conditioning every tank with the same stuff it will not be that.

Can you age some water ? just leave some out in your water change buckets over night with your water conditioner (don't need alot more isn't better)

I would look at your filter it probably does need a cleaning.

do a 30 -40 % water change with the aged water.

Get some Epsom salt (drug store like $5 ) put in a table spoon full for every 10 gallons

Stop feeding them for a few days while you are doing this (keep the lights out if you can. You are trying to flush your fish and get them cleaned out.

I would repeat the aged water changes over the next couple days

add only 1 table spoon of Epsom salts per 20 gallons changed so eg: change 30 gallons put in 1 and a half table spoons.

Increase the temp of your tank to like 82 - 84

feed them on the third day they should be alright.

good luck


----------



## blackninja (Dec 3, 2009)

Check and clean the filters, change the carbon media if you are using it..or get some to remove any unwanted toxins in the water. Do a decent water change. Check the expiry date on those conditioners and fish food.


----------



## GuppiesAndBetta (Jul 27, 2009)

I do not think your nitrate should be 0.


----------



## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

GuppiesAndBetta said:


> I do not think your nitrate should be 0.


If you have a lot of plants it should


----------



## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

i do have a fair amount of plants , was actuallly gonna head to store and buy a new kit to see if it made a diff .its not heavily planted but not lightly either


----------



## Carlito (Feb 10, 2011)

It's been a while since your last post?

How did you make out?


----------

