# 30 ppm with diy co2



## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

does anyone use the diy bottle method and has achieved 30ppm? I'm currently using 2 2L bottles on a 45gallon and I just got my drop checker today, I made a 4dkh solution but after 3-4 hours it's still blue, I also tried just tank water instead of dkh and it's still blue. Would 3 bottles give me closer to 30ppm? thanks


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I used to use DIY CO2 on a 2.5g aquarium and had no problem achieving 30 ppm.

For a 45 gallon aquarium, I would recommend at least 3 bottles, however.

For your drop checker, do not use aquarium water; you should be using your 4 dkH reference solution only to determine the CO2 concentration.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I got multiple tanks of various sizes that has co2 in it, can I move the drop checker around to see if turns green in those tanks or do I have to empty out the solution and refill it everytime I move it to a different tank?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

You can move the drop checker around as you wish. You should be using a 4 dkH reference solution inside the drop checker, and not aquarium water.

Of course, the easiest solution would just be to have multiple drop checkers


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

High CO2 levels with DIY is just a matter of scale. You could do it with any size tank and the bigger your fish tank the easier it is. A thousand gallon tank could be done with a couple of 45 gallon drums. Of course, no one would do this as I am pretty sure that pressurized with a controller would be cheaper although sugar is pretty darn cheap. I use 12 liters of fermenting sugar water for my 120 gallon tank.

For DIY to work you must get a good fermentation going without the usual high initial output. In a complete fermentation 1/2 the weight of the sugar will turn into CO2. 20 pounds of sugar is the equivalent of a full 10 pound CO2 tank. Unfortunately, most recipes will not give these kinds of results. The way to limit initial production is to use small amounts of yeast followed by later additions of more yeast. To obtain a nearly complete fermentation, you must use a very hardy yeast and you need to buffer the initial mixture with baking soda. Too much sugar is also pointless as the yeast will die when alcohol concentrations climb much over 10%


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I'll try adding another 2L bottle to see if it gets me 30ppm my recipe is usually 2 cups sugar 1/2tsp baking soda and 1/2 tsp yeast and the bottles are connect through a T line into a bubble counter than to the tank with cig filter as a diffuser and place under either hob intake or canister intake.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm not sure if I messed up my 4dkh solution or not but after I made it by using 1.2g of baking soda mix in with 2L of distilled water then I took a syringe and took out 90ml of the solution and mixed it into 10ml of plain distilled water. I tried to store as much as I could in an air tight jar so I just repeated the 90+10 and squirted it in the jar until I couldn't fit anymore water in there I might of dones this like 7-8 times? is the solution still 4dkh or is it something else now? basically lets say if I done the procedure 8 times that would be 90x8 = 10x8 so 720ml of mix with 80 ml of plain distilled water in the same storage jar.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

coldmantis said:


> I'm not sure if I messed up my 4dkh solution or not but after I made it by using 1.2g of baking soda mix in with 2L of distilled water then I took a syringe and took out 90ml of the solution and mixed it into 10ml of plain distilled water. I tried to store as much as I could in an air tight jar so I just repeated the 90+10 and squirted it in the jar until I couldn't fit anymore water in there I might of dones this like 7-8 times? is the solution still 4dkh or is it something else now? basically lets say if I done the procedure 8 times that would be 90x8 = 10x8 so 720ml of mix with 80 ml of plain distilled water in the same storage jar.


You made a 18 dkH reference solution.

It is no wonder your solution is not turning green.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

what recipe do you suggest anthony? so that I can make as little as possible I just want to store like 500ml to 1L for later use


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

My mistake, I double checked my calculations. You made an 18 dkH reference solution (I edited my post above to reflect this).

You need 1.2 grams of sodium bicarbonate per 1 L of water; this makes a 40 dkH reference solution. As you added 1.2 grams of NaHCO3 to 2L, you have made a 20 dkH reference solution.

From here, your method of making a dilution was also incorrect; you took 90% of the 20 dkH reference solution and mixed it with 10% distilled water.

This means you have a 18 dkH reference solution.

Math:
(20 dkH)(90 mL) = (? dkH)(100 mL) 
= 18 dkH

If you still have your 20 dkH reference solution, you need to make a 1/5 dilution, i.e. 10 mL of your 20 dkH reference solution, and then 40 mL of distilled water.

Please take a look at my article here, as I have outlined the instructions for drop checker usage here:

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11247#5


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

ok so to make a 500ml solution I should weight 1.2grams of baking soda and add it to 1L of distilled water mix it, then take 50ml of the mix and add it to 450ml of plain distilled water and that would give me 500ml of 4dkh solution?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

This is correct.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

thanks Andy you been lots of help


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

coldmantis said:


> thanks *Andy *you been lots of help


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

So I mix the solution dunno if it's accurate since I don't have a proper cylinder so I just used a syringe and a measuring cup. my 45g with 2 2L is still blue, my 20g with 1 2L is still blue, my 10g with 1 1.5L is still blue. I took out 1 2L from my 45g and added 1 4L so now 6L in total and took that 2L and added to my 20g so now it has 2 2L hopefully tomorrow it will be green. Maybe I should drop by petsmart tomorrow and ask them to do a kh test on my solution.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

It may be better if you purchase your own kH test kit for this kind of purpose.

For your mixing, unfortunately, using a syringe and a measuring cup are not exactly the most accurate tools, so your dilutions may be considerably off.

If you cannot/do not want to purchase the correct tools for making an accurate 4 dkH reference solution, they I would suggest you look for someone that is selling it.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

if I have to I think I might just go and buy a cylinder, do you think active surplus downtown sells it for cheap or would I have to go to a science store. Hopefully there is one in scarborough, I rather not go dt.


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

If you have a scale for measuring the B.S. could you not also measure the water that way. Water is 1 gram per ml. You could put a container on a scale add 500 grams of water and then an additional .6 grams of baking soda and so on. I am pretty sure you can't accurately measure dry ingredients without an accurate scale anyway. I made my dropchecker solution using a Salifert KH test kit. I more or less used trial and error until I was satisfied that my solution was pretty close. Those test kits come with a reference solution so I was pretty confident in the result but it is still not the same as a high quality purpose made solution. It doesn't make sense to me to purchase a bunch of equipment just to make a good reference solution. I would just buy one if I were you.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I don't mind buying the solution but where, I know anthony sells it but hes in london, I tried getting some from him last time he was back but our schedules wouldn't lets us meet up. do lfs sells 4dkh solution


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Maybe Anthony should set up a dealership in Toronto.  Actually he could ship small amounts pretty cheaply. I would not trust just anybody to make a good reference solution. You really need the correct equipment.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

coldmantis said:


> if I have to I think I might just go and buy a cylinder, do you think active surplus downtown sells it for cheap or would I have to go to a science store. Hopefully there is one in scarborough, I rather not go dt.


Active Surplus may have a graduated cylinder. Try not to buy Bomex borosilicate glass 

I do not think there are any "science" stores in Scarborough.



coldmantis said:


> I don't mind buying the solution but where, I know anthony sells it but hes in london, I tried getting some from him last time he was back but our schedules wouldn't lets us meet up. do lfs sells 4dkh solution


I do not think LFS sell 4 dkH reference solution.



waj8 said:


> Maybe Anthony should set up a dealership in Toronto.  Actually he could ship small amounts pretty cheaply. I would not trust just anybody to make a good reference solution. You really need the correct equipment.


Actually, I think shipping is quite expensive (probably would cost more than the liquid itself). However, it is not that hard to make, provided you have the right equipment/access to the right equipment.

For all my dkH solutions, I use sodium bicarbonate from Sigma, weighed out on an analytical balance, and made using fresh 0.2 micron filtered distilled water. Solutions are made using volumetric flasks as well, which are more accurate than graduated cylinders.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

So I just came home from some science store across yorkdale mall, and bought a graduated cylinder and also drop by bigals to get a api kh kit. it looks like 250ml of the cylinder compared to a 1 cup measuring cup is around 50ml off lol. But I'm not sure if I bought the right kh kit unless I don't know how to use it. The insructions says to fill 5ml of water in the vail and drop in 1 drop at a time and shake, repeat until it's yellow. but the chart goes from 0-50ppm 50-100ppm and so on, not exactly that acurrate I took 5ml from my 500ml of 4dkh I hope solution and it took I think 5 drops to make it turn yellow. but since the chart goes from 0-50ppm and not single numbers I still have no idea if my solution is 4dkh or not.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

wait had a brain fart there was an actual chart on the other side of the folded paper lol, I guess it's still not right since it took me 5 drops.... now I'm thinking it might be the wrong amount of baking soda. I'm using a scale from work and it's not one of those cheapo pocket ones it's big and heaving and it's connect to a computer for measure the amount of ink in a ink cartridge, it only goes to 0.1g maybe I should get a scale that measures to at lease 0.01g


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## waj8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Using a very accurate solution in your drop checker means that you will actually gain some accuracy in CO2 measurement over using KH and pH test kits and a CO2 chart. However, if you use the KH test kit to make the solution you forgo any possible improvements in accuracy since you are introducing the same errors associated with the KH test kit. I would say it doesn't matter that much. KH measurement errors are likely insignificant when compared to the likely pH measurement errors.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I think your right about kh accuracy because my 20g with 2 2L turn light green but I did something stupid after I took out all the drop checkers and remade the solution with trial and error until I got 4dkh with the kh test kit now my 20g is not turning green. basicly I just added plain distilled water 10ml at a time and tested on the already 500ml of 4dkh solution until I could get 4dkh according to the test kit.......


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

The API kH test kit should not come with a card that has ppm readings (at least mine did not).

This particular kH test kit works on the basis of titration. The number of drops you add indicates your alkalinity in degrees German hardness.

However, as the number of drops from the reagent bottle may or may not be exactly the same, it is hard to determine how accurate the test actually is. In addition, the precision is not so good. For example, at 4 drops, your solution is still blue. After adding a 5th drop, it turns yellow. All this tells you is that your solution has a kH that is slightly greater than 4 dkH, and less than 5 dkH (i.e. it could be 4.1 dkH or 4.9 dkH). If you want increased precision, you can double the volume of water to be tested (i.e. 10 mL versus 5 mL), which will increase precision to 0.5 dkH (accordingly, quadrupling the volume to 20 mL will give you a precision of 0.25 dkH, and so forth).


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I remix the solution this time I did 2.4g of baking soda to 2L of water then taking 50ml of the mix and adding it to 450ml of plain distilled and my 20g with 2 2L is now dark green so I guess it worked, it still however takes 5 drops to turn yellow...


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Darkblade48 said:


> For example, at 4 drops, your solution is still blue. After adding a 5th drop, it turns yellow. All this tells you is that your solution has a kH that is slightly greater than 4 dkH, and less than 5 dkH (i.e. it could be 4.1 dkH or 4.9 dkH).


As written above.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

for $20 you can buy a drop checker with shipping from mops.ca


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I made 2 myself for 2 dollars from the dollar store


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

coldmantis said:


> I made 2 myself for 2 dollars from the dollar store


but then the graduated cylinder, the materials to make the solution.. etc etc.

If they worked you wouldn't have posted this thread.

#justsaying


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

the cylinder I got from some science store next to yorkdale mall. For me it's not really about how much I spend it's about I want to be able to do it lol. If I try and I fail I try try again if I keep failing then I give up but at least I try 5 times before giving up. It's much more convenient to make the solution since no lfs that I know of sells it.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Mops does! lol

Doesn't the solution use baking soda?


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

mops sells the solution? are you sure i didn't see the solution on their site only the indicator which is just a ph test regeant. The indicator I have, you can buy it anywhere but the solution is another story, and yes it's just baking soda and distilled water but it has to be exact measurements. Unless you have a digital scale that does at least 0.1g I recommend at least 0.01g accuracy and a lab graduated cylinder you won't get 4dkh reference solution.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Check Canadian Tire. they had three different types of kitchen scales on clearance and i think two were digital. for like $15 or somethign

and the solution:

http://www.aquariumsupplies.ca/indicator-refill-p-801.html


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

that's just the indicator/PH not the solution. as for scales I don't think tire sells scales that does 0.1g or 0.01g accuracy for cheap.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Unfortunately, most of the kitchen scales that you can find at Canadian Tire will only measure to 1 gram accuracy.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

coldmantis said:


> that's just the indicator/PH not the solution.


then maybe you can help me understand better. was the link i posted not for the solution that goes inside the drop checker?

Because I need a drop checker soon, so any help is appreciated


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

the bottle that comes with the drop checker is only the indicator as in PH indicator so the water will change colours depending on ph levels. now of course you can use your tank water and it will still work but it won't be close to accurate. If your going co2 you should try to get 30ppm which is green on the drop checker if you don't use a 4dkh solution the change in colour will not accuratly represent the amount of ph the tank water is. so if you just using tank water by the time the drop checker turns green your fish will probably be floating dead on the water.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

BettaBeats said:


> then maybe you can help me understand better. was the link i posted not for the solution that goes inside the drop checker?
> 
> Because I need a drop checker soon, so any help is appreciated


No, the link that you posted to is the indicator solution only (bromothymol blue).

A drop checker requires two things to work properly: a 4 dkH reference solution (or rather, a reference solution with a known kH), and also an indicator solution (bromothymol blue). The link that you have posted is the latter.



coldmantis said:


> now of course you can use your tank water and it will still work but it won't be close to accurate. If your going co2 you should try to get 30ppm which is green on the drop checker if you don't use a 4dkh solution the change in colour will not accuratly represent the amount of ph the tank water is. so if you just using tank water by the time the drop checker turns green your fish will probably be floating dead on the water.


This is not entirely true. Using tank water will not work to tell you anything about your CO2 levels, at best, using a drop checker with aquarium water and the bromothymol blue indicator will only tell you the pH of your aquarium water, and nothing about the CO2.

In addition, not using a 4 dkH reference solution will not mean the drop checker will not accurately represent the pH of the water. Rather, due to other components in aquarium water, the often used pH/kH/CO2 relationship cannot be applied directly.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

so they sell these kits without a reference solution.. so even if i pay the $20 from mops i still have to make a 4kH reference solution?


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

yep, and I'm pretty sure they sell the same drop checker for like 16 and change at big als.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

its 11$ on mops, plus the $5 shipping. if i buy one more thing than its the same price as transit going to and from big als, and i dont leave my condo, and i get a package in the mail, which i love.



but if i need to make a reference solution, then i guess I could/should just make my own then? I see why you're trying to DIY


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm not trying I had no choice, only person I know that sells the solution is dark but he only comes to scarborough on holiday weekends. So I dont feel like waiting so I had to make my own I fail lots of times I think I went through at least 2 or 3 4L jugs of distilled water until I finally got it close but I don't think exactly 4dkh solution. I believe I can't get it exactly 4dkh because the scale I used is only 0.1g scale from wok and I need a 0.01g scale to be more accurate.


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