# Nitrate advice plzz



## afg (Jul 26, 2012)

i have a 120g tank with 2 ehiem 2217 filters with about 20 cichlids (all sizes). Tank has been established for about 4-5 months and my nitrate levels are always 20-40ppm. i do weekly 25% water change with light gravel cleaning. i havent seen it under 20ppm since i finished cycling. Is there any way to get my nitrate levels to stay lower? is there anything i can do or add to help?
thank you in advance


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## Scotmando (Jul 10, 2011)

Fast growing plants suck up nitrates. Try some floating plants. 

What kind of cichlids? African or SA?

I have a 55g with Africans and have no problems with nitrates. I do a 20% water change only once a month. The tank has aragonite sand for substrate and lots of rocks. I have an old Fluval 4 internal filter that I lightly rinse only once every month, and I have a Eheim 2217 I rinse at same interval except 2 weeks later.

Now I do throw some plants in every once in a while and they eat 'em up, which I think they need. 

I also don't feed to heavy. Uneaten food, even a bit can cause increases in the ANN cycle.

Hope this helps


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

The simple answer is that you need to double the volume of water changes. As long as your filters are working you will have nitrates. More frequent filter cleanings, to remove solids from the filter before they break down will help prevent the rise of nitrates.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

I have 0 Nitrates atm thanks to 10 pieces of Frogbit plants and 1L of Seachem De*Nitrate, 300g of Purigen, and 1L of Seachem Matrix.

But I think I do not have nearly as much bioload as you.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Using live plants requires that you have plant-growing lights. If you don't, and you don't want to replace your lights, then you can try willow branches.

Willow branches can grow partially submerged and soak up a lot of nutrients from the water. You will need at least ambient daylight in order for the willow branches to grow.

In order for this to work, it would be best to get an HOB filter, put a thin layer of gravel in the media chamber, and put the willow branches in the filter.

I've found that willow branches will not grow roots if they are not resting on a substrate.

The more willow branches you have, the more roots they will grow, and the more nutrients they will soak up from your tank. You can always cut long branches into several short segments. As long as you leave at least 10cm of the segment out of the water, the branches will do fine.

Roots should start growing a few days after you set this up. If you don't get enough of a nitrate drop, simply add more branches. Make sure your HOB filter has enough space however, you don't want the roots to compact and choke each other to death. Make sure you provide them with some growing room.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

I love using plants to absorb the nitrate.

Strangely my cichlid tank (plantless) and goldfish tank (also plantless) typically have low to undetectable nitrate levels. I only do WCs once a week. Not sure where the nitrates go, as goldfish are really dirty fish.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

splur said:


> I love using plants to absorb the nitrate.
> 
> Strangely my cichlid tank (plantless) and goldfish tank (also plantless) typically have low to undetectable nitrate levels. I only do WCs once a week. Not sure where the nitrates go, as goldfish are really dirty fish.


Buy a new Nitrate test kit


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## SeriousCPD (Sep 20, 2012)

These things might help:
Increase your water change, but 120G can be a hassle. I have a 90G, I use a facet adapter connecting a hose to my fish tank. I dose 90G worth of Prime and hose tap water right into my tank. 

Add fast growing plants to absorb excessive nitrate: duckweed, not much lighting and soaks up nitrate really fast. Another fast growing low tech plant, which you can either float or plant, is water sprite also sucks up nitrate.

How much are you feeding your fish? Excessive feeding can create a lot of nitrate as well.

Your filter is not the problem here as it is pumping out nitrate.


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## Scotmando (Jul 10, 2011)

_Remember, correct the cause instead of just treating the symptoms and your problems might just disappear. _

I would adjust my feeding and see what happens. Either reduce the amount, or frequency of feed, might just do the trick. Overfeeding is a large contributor to excess nitrates and other undesirable waste, such as phosphates.

Below 10ppm is most desirable, but 20-25ppm is the norm. Above 50ppm should be avoided. Also, some water from the tap in Canada is at 40ppm.

*Solarz*, I like the idea of the willow method. I'm going to give this a try and see what happens.

Plants are a natural way of removing nitrates and your cichlids will get a treat at the same time. I use all kinds of floater like duckweed, frogbits, salvinia, mini water lettuce and riccia.

*BillD*, you're right. Frequent water changes are great. But some drinking water from the tap in Canada is at 40ppm. I would test first.


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## afg (Jul 26, 2012)

solarz said:


> Using live plants requires that you have plant-growing lights. If you don't, and you don't want to replace your lights, then you can try willow branches.
> 
> Willow branches can grow partially submerged and soak up a lot of nutrients from the water. You will need at least ambient daylight in order for the willow branches to grow.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your replys every1. 
Thery are african cichlids and I feed them once in the morning before I go to work and once when I get home from work.I feed them veggie flakes or hakari pellets or nls pellets and brine shirmp once a week. Should I start feeding them once a day?
I'm new to the hobby so I've never tried plants before. I don't really want more maintenance or more added work for planting my tank. What is some low maintenace plants ? My cichlids rearrange the gravel all the time so I think floating plants would be best. Also my lighting isn't the greatest atm, I have 2 30inch single bulb fixtures to cover my 60inch tank.


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## Explorer guy (Sep 12, 2011)

I have a 120 with africans,(roughly 30 of them) and only run 1 Eheim 2217, I have never had an issue in over a year. I do weekly 25% water changes, and change my filter floss every 6-8 weeks, and use a carbon pad as well. Only issue I had recently was with ammonia.... cleaned all hoses for filter, and flushed the filter out (with tank water of course) and the problem went away. I only feed hikari pellets with a light mix of flakes (approx. 3 tablespoons) once a day. Fish breed like crazy and water test readings are always perfect.


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## afg (Jul 26, 2012)

Explorer guy said:


> I have a 120 with africans,(roughly 30 of them) and only run 1 Eheim 2217, I have never had an issue in over a year. I do weekly 25% water changes, and change my filter floss every 6-8 weeks, and use a carbon pad as well. Only issue I had recently was with ammonia.... cleaned all hoses for filter, and flushed the filter out (with tank water of course) and the problem went away. I only feed hikari pellets with a light mix of flakes (approx. 3 tablespoons) once a day. Fish breed like crazy and water test readings are always perfect.


So if I start feeding once a day and mixing my veggie flakes with the pellets will that be enough food for them. Maybe I am over feed as I don't really know what is good feeding practice?


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## Scotmando (Jul 10, 2011)

Explorer guy said:


> I have a 120 with africans,(roughly 30 of them) and only run 1 Eheim 2217, I have never had an issue in over a year. I do weekly 25% water changes, and change my filter floss every 6-8 weeks, and use a carbon pad as well. Only issue I had recently was with ammonia.... cleaned all hoses for filter, and flushed the filter out (with tank water of course) and the problem went away. I only feed hikari pellets with a light mix of flakes (approx. 3 tablespoons) once a day. Fish breed like crazy and water test readings are always perfect.


Beer... nectar of the monks. Mmmmm


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## vrodolfo (Apr 7, 2011)

afg,

There is some good advice going on in this thread so I'll sum it all up and offer some tidbits of my own from my own experience:

With African cichlids, over filtration is a must (i.e. insane over filtration is better). I have stocking levels of literally 1 adult cichlid / gallon if not more in all my tanks. Over filtration and over stocking go hand in hand since you want to keep aggression down to as low as possible (this is true of malawi mbuna which is what I usually keep).

My parameters of the big three are always 0 ppm (Ammonia), 0 ppm (Nitrite), 0 ppm (Nitrate) and I performed an inadvertent test (I had to evacuate my home for over 2 months due to a fire...all the fish and tanks survived except for one which was in a QT tank that was heavily exposed to soot) which also showed the parameters to still be all 0 ppm.

*Low Nitrates (The how to):*

A sand substrate is an important key to low nitrates especially one that is enriched with aragonite (use this type of sand...you could even use pure aragonite so long as its not alive). The bed should be at least 2.5" thick all around the bottom of the tank. Naysayers will say this is too thick, you'll get toxic anaerobic pockets of poison gas from decaying fecal / food matter in the tank. To that I say, African cichlids are sand sifters (peacocks will behave in this way, not so much for breeding but feeding) and they do so all the time in order to breed (especially mbuna), there is no way pockets will form. This technique is known as DSB (Deep Sand Bed) and results in NNR (natural nitrate reduction).

A properly cycled tank is also key to low nitrates. Many people will cycle a tank and only concern themselves with ammonia and nitrite levels. If you've implemented a DSB, wait, you're not done yet. Concern yourself with nitrate as well, it will drop as dramatically just as nitrite does, you have to wait and make sure the big 3 are all 0 ppm within a 12 - 24 hour period after spiking the tank with ammonia (The ammonium chloride method is best due to its accurate control in ammonia spiking...I usually stop at an ammonia spike of 8 ppm...if the tank can handle that in a 12 - 24 hour period, I consider the tank fully cycled, at this point, the tank can handle an insane bio load allowing 1 adult mbuna per gallon easily. This also allows you to stock the tank in one single shot which is also great in keeping aggression down with African cichlids).

Fast growing plants are literally "nitrate sponges". There is a caveat here with african cichlids, unless the cichlids are juveniles / fry, don't bother. The plants will be quickly destroyed within a week, especially if you have one or more synodontis multipunctatus in your tank...those guys will chew up anubias and java fern in no time, so will many mbuna. So much for distasteful plant varieties. I do use hornwort (thanks DarkBlade) in my fry and juvenile tanks (which are crazy stocked, more than one fish / gallon) and this stuff is fantastic for keeping nitrate levels down. So if you are going to put plants to reduce nitrate levels, stick to something tough and fast growing, hornwort is an excellent choice due to its requirements (no CO2 required). Anubias and java fern, although tough, grow too slowly and do not process nitrate fast enough.

Some filter media also reduces nitrates. Of those, I recommend Purigen and Matrix (not Matrix Carbon, Matrix bio media) from Seachem. Why? Although the investment up front is high, both products never have to be replaced, ever. I know the recharge process for Purigen sounds scary, but if done correctly (50/50 Bleach bath --> Prime bath --> Neutral Buffer bath) , it does work and will not harm your fish. These two products just work and actually do what they claim which is surprising given all the junk out there that doesn't. Again, I will use double or triple the recommended amounts (FYI...I believe you can never have enough Matrix, so I go bananas with that stuff...take it easy on the Purigen, double the usual amount is more than enough given this product's price point). I honestly believe De*Nitrate is ground down Matrix (to provide more surface area) and since both products do the same thing and cost the same, stick with Matrix, just use more (I prefer Matrix over De*Nitrate simply because Matrix doesn't effect the flow as much when it gets clogged with detritus, De*Nitrate will effect flow when its clogged even tough it may perform better). To use the products effectively, Purigen works well in a high flow environment, the more water you can push through it, the better. A reactor filled with Purigen is the best scenario / use case for Purigen and is the most effective in that type of rig since it is used up uniformly. Other great options are: the top level of an HOB (AquaClear is best...shameless plug), the last chamber in a sump (right beside the return pump), the top level in a high flow canister filter. Matrix works well in a slow flow environment with no air (anaerobic), like a canister filter, it will remove nitrates from the tank. Jam as much Matrix as possible in your canister filter. In a 4 tray canister filter, I devote two trays just to Matrix, the other two are mechanical filtration with Purigen slipped into the top tray or the last tray in the stack just before the outflow pipe. Another fantastic option to reduce nitrates is a fluidized sand bed filter (i.e. simple clean pool filter sand in a cheap reactor on the outflow pipe of a canister filter), take it easy on the flow since you will defeat the purpose, the sand should be "suspended" in the water column. If done properly, it is literally a zero to low maintenance solution and truly helps to reduce nitrates and it's self cleaning, added bonus. This is an effective alternative to DSB if you use gravel. Don't use activated charcoal, it's a garbage chemical medium and requires frequent maintenance since its surfaces quickly become clogged rendering it ineffective in no time, especially if you overstock.

In terms of feeding, stick to pellets, avoid flakes since they are a real PITA. Flakes are tough to meter / control amounts not to mention are messy and pollute the tank unnecessarily since they seem to get into crevasses in your tank where fish cannot go. They are a cheap alternative but its not worth it in the long run. Buy pellets in bulk to save huge $$$, sugarglidder and angelfins are selling bulk pails of NLS for $60, you can't go wrong. I use a cocktail of pellets since I keep a mixture of Africans...I find a 60/40 mix of Hikari Cichlid Sinking Cichlid Excel (mini pellet) and NLS Cichlid Formula (1 mm) works amazing and fits the dietary needs of a wide spectrum of Africans which is what I have. But experiment with your own pellet cocktails, find what works best for you and post it on the forum. Also consider using an automatic feeder to feed your fish like clock work. I find this reduces aggression tremendously; feed them three to four times a day but no more than what they can consume in less than 20 seconds (in my tank, the pellets don't have a chance to hit the sand) during each feeding. Automatic feeders help to "dial in" the proper amount. Be careful here (less is more), do not overfeed since you can easily cause your fish to suffer from bloat which can be devastating in an overstocked tank (it tends to come in threes and spreads quickly) and it is the easiest disease to prevent as well as is the easiest to cause amongst African cichlids, especially herbivores like mbuna . If there is no food left to decay, it does not add to your bio load and hence helps to reduce your nitrates.

On filtration, be cheap, consider DIY filters like HMF (I use it and it does work to reduce nitrates when done properly), a wet/dry sump or a cheap skate DIY in tank wet/dry filter (although they look ugly and are tough to hide, they do flatten ammonia spikes like when fish die or there are just too many proteins in the water...very effective filters, more so than anything you can buy on the market). Ebay is your friend, some cheap high flow filters can be obtained there as well as from AI (Aqua Inspiration) cutting your costs to devote them to quality feed and quality media, which in my opinion, are items you shouldn't skimp on.

Cheers,
Vic


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## Explorer guy (Sep 12, 2011)

afg said:


> So if I start feeding once a day and mixing my veggie flakes with the pellets will that be enough food for them. Maybe I am over feed as I don't really know what is good feeding practice?


You could be over-feeding. I've always fed them once in the evening when I get home from work. I mixed a "small bit" of flakes in with my pellets (I have a glass jar with a screw on lid I picked up at the dollarama that I keep my food in, its like a small cookie jar) and I have a plastic measuring spoon. I give 3 teaspoons, once in the evening. Flake food is usually the culprit for water problems. Use it sparingly.


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## Explorer guy (Sep 12, 2011)

Scotmando said:


> Beer... nectar of the monks. Mmmmm


Nectar of everything


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Symplicity said:


> Buy a new Nitrate test kit


I think it's accurate because it definitely sees nitrates in some of the tanks, and in the goldfish tank if I miss a WC. Not to mention it is in 5 ppm intervals.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Very interesting.. I think I know now why my nitrates tend to stick at 20 and not go lower, though I don't have cichlids that sift the substrate. MTS snails do a fair job of that instead. But to go back to the post about willow cuttings.. I am surprised to hear that willow won't root without a substrate. 

I've rooted several kinds of willow.. black pussy willow, regular pussy willow, Curly and Weeping Willows, all in a plain bucket or jar of water, countless times. I make my own rooting hormone by doing this..if you let the container become jammed with roots, the water that is left in it is chock full of plant growth hormones, primarily auxins. It does not smell very nice, but it works quite well to help root other cuttings, either by dipping them or using it diluted to water them. 

If your willow won't root, it's either too big a cutting.. over 2 inch diameter is unlikely to root much, or perhaps taken at the wrong time of year.. spring and summer are best, but if you cut willow at this time of year, it either might not root at all or might take a very long time, as the trees are shutting down for the winter. But spring cuttings should begin to root within a few days of being in any water source. Make sure to cut the stems under water at least two inches up from the first cut end, to make sure the branch is able to take up water efficiently.

I'd get green curly willow cuttings from a florist if possible, they are extremely easy to root, but tend to be available only in spring and summer. So long as they're soft, green and flexible, even if leafless, they'll likely root fine. But they're available in spring earlier than our local trees would be in leaf, as they often come from further south.. because they've been dry longer, I cut them 3 or 4 inches up from the cut end.


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## vrb th hrb (Feb 20, 2010)

im too lazy to keep plants, my geos sift the hell out of my substrate and I keep a bunch of fat overeating plecos so my nitrates rise pretty quick. I change 50% of my water once a week, I wouldnt recommend this for everyone.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

vrb th hrb said:


> im too lazy to keep plants, my geos sift the hell out of my substrate and I keep a bunch of fat overeating plecos so my nitrates rise pretty quick. I change 50% of my water once a week, I wouldnt recommend this for everyone.


Why wouldn't you recommend this for everyone? I would. If you consider that all sorts of metabolic byproducts build up in tank water and, at best, PWCs only dilute what is there, why wouldn't you recommend removing as much as reasonably possible?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BillD said:


> Why wouldn't you recommend this for everyone? I would. If you consider that all sorts of metabolic byproducts build up in tank water and, at best, PWCs only dilute what is there, why wouldn't you recommend removing as much as reasonably possible?


Because it's a PITA, and if you pay for water, costs a fortune on bigger tanks?


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## vrb th hrb (Feb 20, 2010)

solarz said:


> Because it's a PITA, and if you pay for water, costs a fortune on bigger tanks?


exactly. I live in a rental property where I dont pay for my utilities, there was a time when I was unemployed and I was changing 50% twice a week. I had never seen better growth from my plecos. It's really kind of a waste of water, unless you have a garden to water....

I've met people who are nervous about adding that much chlorinated water into their tank at one time, but I have both of my filters running, powerhead and im adding prime, and I've never had an issue


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