# Is there no inexpensive CO2 alternative?



## blackblack (Nov 29, 2011)

I'd like to preface my statement by stating that I am still relatively new to the aquarium hobby. But I already fully envision a future where I have a small tank in every room of my place. All sexy and Takashi Amano looking. And the wife approves! But in moving forward from the inexpensive yeast and sugar or the Chinese, vinegar and baking soda DIY methods I've currently been experimenting with, which usually deliver inconsistent amounts of CO2, there doesn't seem to be a middle step before diving straight into quality but expensive Swaglok regulators on pressurized CO2 canisters from Darkblade48. 

Now, I knew that there would be inconsistent delivery via these DIY systems as I'd read in the article in the forum on pressurized systems by Darkblade but I wanted to experiment on my own. And naturally I've found them wanting. But buying a $200+ kit for each tank I eventually plan to have seems kinda ridiculous. 
Is there another way? Does everyone here just buy a new kit for each tank? Is there a secret for making the yeast method more consistent or the vinegar method last more than a week?

I'm just looking to the future and wondering what my plan should be. Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.


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## Modo (Oct 9, 2012)

Depends on how small your tank will be, Fluval has full CO2 setup under $50 for up to 15 gal tanks. It's one of those disposable cartridge.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

blackblack said:


> ...there doesn't seem to be a middle step before diving straight into quality but expensive Swaglok regulators on pressurized CO2 canisters from Darkblade48.


Just to let you know, they are not Swagelok regulators, but Swagelok metering valves 

The regulators are often Victor or Matheson regulators.

You do not have to get dual stage regulators, I have some cheaper single stage options as well. If you omit certain parts (such as a solenoid), the cost goes down as well.

Also, I am trying to get as many people involved in pressurized CO2 as possible. Many people start off with commercially available pressurized CO2 systems (Milwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek, etc) and then find something that they do not like (i.e. bubble rate is not stable, difficulty in obtaining desired bubble rate, etc), and then end up spending more money upgrading parts and/or buying a new system.

The equipment I sell is on a one-time investment; once you buy it, barring accidents (please don't drop your equipment onto the floor ), it should last a lifetime.



blackblack said:


> But buying a $200+ kit for each tank I eventually plan to have seems kinda ridiculous.
> Is there another way? Does everyone here just buy a new kit for each tank?


If your aquariums are close together, it is possible to run multiple lines from a single CO2 cylinder into your aquariums. I am building a custom setup for someone right now that is meant to run into two aquariums. Of course, this requires two metering valves/2 bubble counters (1 or 2 solenoids; if you use 1, then both will turn on/off at the same time, if you use 2, you can control them separately), but the additional cost in parts is less than if you were to buy an entire setup. See below for a picture:












blackblack said:


> Is there a secret for making the yeast method more consistent or the vinegar method last more than a week?


DIY CO2 using yeast and sugar should last about 2 weeks. Don't use too much yeast (I wouldn't go more than 1/4 teaspoon). Some find that baking soda helps to buffer the pH a little. You can also try other kinds of yeast (such as wine yeast), which are more resistant to the effects of the ethanol that is generated as a byproduct of metabolism.

I would not recommend the vinegar/baking soda method, as that is probably the most unreliable of all the methods.



blackblack said:


> I'd like to preface my statement by stating that I am still relatively new to the aquarium hobby. But I already fully envision a future where I have a small tank in every room of my place. All sexy and Takashi Amano looking. And the wife approves!


Finally, I'd like to mention that you do not necessarily need high light aquariums to have beautiful aquariums. There are many aquariums that Amano runs that are low light, and look just as beautiful as any high light aquarium. In these low light aquariums, while CO2 can be beneficial, it is not absolutely required.

Hope this helps,


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## Jiinx (Apr 5, 2012)

Darkblade48 said:


> Also, I am trying to get as many people involved in pressurized CO2 as possible. Many people start off with commercially available pressurized CO2 systems (Milwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek, etc) and then find something that they do not like (i.e. bubble rate is not stable, difficulty in obtaining desired bubble rate, etc), and then end up spending more money upgrading parts and/or buying a new system.
> 
> ,


I've been there, done that. I threw my Milwaukee in the trash. I ended up spending more money on a quality co2 build but do not regret it at all. The peace of mind you get from a quality build is so worth it.


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## blackblack (Nov 29, 2011)

Modo said:


> Depends on how small your tank will be, Fluval has full CO2 setup under $50 for up to 15 gal tanks. It's one of those disposable cartridge.


I definitely wanted to stay away from this method as I don't really feel comfortable tossing away the canisters. Doesn't seems like something that should really be disposable in my opinion. Also, I'm sure it must get pricey in the long run.



Darkblade48 said:


> Just to let you know, they are not Swagelok regulators, but Swagelok metering valves
> 
> The regulators are often Victor or Matheson regulators.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the correction .
I do like the idea of buying just once and from the casual research I've done I see that your solutions are the best for sure. Buying quality so you only buy once is always the best way. I think I want a dual stage just so I don't have to worry about that end of tank dump but I'm not really certain if it's necessary. I don't think I need a solenoid though although I'm sure it's something I could add later to save CO2 and extend the time between refills.



Darkblade48 said:


> If your aquariums are close together, it is possible to run multiple lines from a single CO2 cylinder into your aquariums...


I do plan on having a roomful of tanks at some point and splitting one large canister between them all is what I've been looking at. But I will still have tanks in other rooms and I wonder how inexpensive it can get for those tanks even if I go single stage and solenoid free.



Darkblade48 said:


> I would not recommend the vinegar/baking soda method, as that is probably the most unreliable of all the methods.


Funny, I've found the opposite. The yeast method kind of tapers off at the end instead of just finishing and it take hours to build up the pressure. On the other hand this Chinese vinegar apparatus I've been using (



) stays pretty consistent until the end and is somewhat adjustable. It just runs out much sooner.



Darkblade48 said:


> Finally, I'd like to mention that you do not necessarily need high light aquariums to have beautiful aquariums. There are many aquariums that Amano runs that are low light, and look just as beautiful as any high light aquarium. In these low light aquariums, while CO2 can be beneficial, it is not absolutely required.


I think that this will ultimately be the best option for me as far as the other tertiary tanks around the house. Besides, who wants to do water changes for a whole host of tanks at the same time anyways.

Thanks again for the feedback.



Jiinx said:


> I've been there, done that. I threw my Milwaukee in the trash. I ended up spending more money on a quality co2 build but do not regret it at all. The peace of mind you get from a quality build is so worth it.


Sounds like what I'm looking for. I'm happy to hear my own conclusions confirmed my others who know what they're talking about. Thanks


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

blackblack said:


> I think I want a dual stage just so I don't have to worry about that end of tank dump but I'm not really certain if it's necessary. I don't think I need a solenoid though although I'm sure it's something I could add later to save CO2 and extend the time between refills.


A dual stage regulator will eliminate EOTD, while with a single stage regulator, it is still possible. It does not mean it will occur every time, but the risk is there (i.e. when you drive a car, there is a risk that you will have an accident, but that doesn't stop us from driving cars).

If you fill up the CO2 cylinder as soon as you notice the pressure dropping, then there is no risk of EOTD. With a dual stage regulator, you can run the cylinder dry.

For the solenoid, you can remove it or have it; it is an optional part, after all. Some people like to have it so that they can have it on a timer so that CO2 is only on when the plants need it (when they are photosynthesizing).

In addition, a solenoid will help save gas, as you mentioned.



blackblack said:


> I do plan on having a roomful of tanks at some point and splitting one large canister between them all is what I've been looking at. But I will still have tanks in other rooms and I wonder how inexpensive it can get for those tanks even if I go single stage and solenoid free.


The most expensive part after the regulator and needle/metering valve is then the CO2 cylinder itself. You would need a cylinder for every aquarium that cannot be run off the same CO2 cylinder.



blackblack said:


> Funny, I've found the opposite. The yeast method kind of tapers off at the end instead of just finishing and it take hours to build up the pressure. On the other hand this Chinese vinegar apparatus I've been using (
> 
> 
> 
> ) stays pretty consistent until the end and is somewhat adjustable. It just runs out much sooner.


I never used this system so I can't really comment on it. Is it safe to put a pressure regulator like that on a pop bottle? What is the maximum pressure they can withstand before exploding?


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## blackblack (Nov 29, 2011)

Darkblade48 said:


> I never used this system so I can't really comment on it. Is it safe to put a pressure regulator like that on a pop bottle? What is the maximum pressure they can withstand before exploding?


I find that sometimes even with that regulator all the way closed the CO2 is still releasing into the tank. So I don't think there's any danger of exploding pop bottles thankfully.


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## df001 (Nov 13, 2007)

Curiosity got me, so a quick look found this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.crafts.brewing/Yp2t3pMroC8

To summarize a 2l pop(coke) bursts (cap?) at 150 psi.


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## blackblack (Nov 29, 2011)

df001 said:


> Curiosity got me, so a quick look found this:
> 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.crafts.brewing/Yp2t3pMroC8
> 
> To summarize a 2l pop(coke) bursts (cap?) at 150 psi.


Yea, I figured it would be ok. The mix doesn't generate too much pressure as the two ingredients are in separate bottles. I've never even seen the gauge that comes with it move from zero


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