# Trying to cycle a tank, no ammonia yet



## rkay (May 8, 2011)

Hey there I'm new to this site after lurking for a couple days, I'm also new to the hobby and this is my FIRST fishy tank. 

So currently its day 5 of of with fish in my new tank. (I would have probably done the cycle fishless if I was aware and more read up on it.) Regardless, I have three danios all of which are various types and I feed them once every other day and as much as they can eat within 2 minutes. When I used my liquid test kit (I assume thats what it is, it had vials.) The ammonia test showed that there was none. Which I thought was a bit strange due to what I have read I thought there would be some by now.

So is there any reason why I wouldn't have ammonia yet? Or does it just need more time? I don't add anything to kill the ammonia or anything. Haven't done a water change yet but I was planning on doing a 10% one tomorrow and only adding decholorinator to the water. 

My tank details are its a 20 gallon. 20x14x16
Tetra whisper20ex filter
No live plants.
Tank tempature usually is around 76.

Any insight would be very much appreciated along with any other tips 

Thanks !


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## Kerohime (Jan 10, 2011)

Did you set the tank up for a while before adding the fish?
You probably added something like 'cycle' that came with the tank right?
The fish will produce NH3 for sure, but the bacteria from the 'cycle' will convert that into other nitrates. You can see if thats true if you tested your NO2, and NO3.


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## rkay (May 8, 2011)

Thanks for the quick response.

I had the tank set up for over 24 hours before adding any fish.

Yup, I think your totally right and I forgot right about it. I added "Big Al's Multi-Purpose Bio-Support" which says "300 million live bacteria w*hich enhance the growth of the biological filter*" "use to setup and maintain", "Helps eliminate ammonia and nitrite", "Helps clean".
On the bottle it tells me to re-apply on the 7th and 14th day of setup, then once established use weekly. So now my question is should I continue using this product?

I'm also going to do another ammonia test along with the ones I didn't do and will post the results.

**Okay I tested ammonia and NO2 my test kit doesn't have anything for NO3 (Which I think is strange its the "Tetratest Laborett" My NH3/NH4 test showed 0 ammonia. My NO2 test showed <0.3mg/l, so which appears to be like zero. Do I really need to buy another test kit to just test NO3 lol? Or is there some sort of math equation you can use to figure it out from other tests.

(Also why would ammonia and nitrite be zero? its been 6 days I doubt the tank cycled already.)


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## Kerohime (Jan 10, 2011)

If you have enough bacteria in the tank, it should be converting both ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. I believe nitrates are the harder ones to convert unless you have anaerobic bacteria in your tank... which is really unlikely so the most plausible way to get rid of ammonia is to do water changes and have plants in your tank. 
Ammonia and Nitrite are the most toxic to your fish, especially if your pH is not at the lower ranges. I guess its not that important to have nitrates, if you do routine water changes. I would suggest 10% every other week for a water change for a 20g tank(or better yet a gravel washing at the same time) to keep the nitrates in check. 

It wouldnt hurt to keep dosing the bacteria, as you cant really overdose with beneficial bacteria, but careful with the water conditioners, those you can overdose.


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## rkay (May 8, 2011)

Okay, Il keep using the bacteria one. But does this mean I can add a couple more fish? Or should I keep the three and continue cleaning etc and give it a month?


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## Kerohime (Jan 10, 2011)

Its a good thing that your ammonia and nitrites are low. 
Just add the bacteria one when you do your water changes... if nothing is cloudy and your ammonia is 0 it seems fine.
And adding a couple of fish should be fine, just dont go over 2 at a time per week. 
What are you planning on adding?


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## rkay (May 8, 2011)

I would add another two danios. But I'm gonna leave it for at least a week and continue testing. I did a nitrate test and it came back as little to none. My ph and hardness is fine i just have nothing else lol


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## vrodolfo (Apr 7, 2011)

My suggestion would be not to increase your current bio load. Believe it or not, so called "on the shelf bio media additives" do nothing to establish the bio filter in an aquarium (Bio-Spira is an exception to this rule and only if it is kept refridgerated). Many will simply sequester ammonia making it non toxic for a short while, so let them stay on the shelf where they belong.

A brand new tank will typically cycle in 4 to 6 weeks given a source of ammonia and no viable sources of nitrifying bacteria. Five days is certainly not enough time to establish the bio filter.

Your current bio load is low for your tank which is probably why ammonia levels are not registering yet but that will soon change in the coming days.

My advice to you would be to introduce some real nitrifying bacteria ASAP from a disease free established tank; this can come in the form of filter squeezings, gravel, adding filter floss to your HOT filter, etc.

A simple DIY project of using a squarish water bottle (a fiji water bottle in your case will be fine), suction cups, established bio media (Matrix or anything else...heavy enough so that it doesn't float in water, gently sinking is fine too) enough to fill 30 - 50% of the water bottle (you can keep adding more over time, just ensure the media moves well), an air stone, an air pump (I'm assuming you have one already) and presto...an instantly established bio filter known as a moving bed filter, use this as a reference to work out the details:






I use this filter in my fry tank / main tank (nudge...nudge...wink...wink...I take some bio media from my main tank, which has tons, to instantly establish the bio filter in my little fry tank) and it works great. You don't need to use the waky bio media mentioned, any good bio media will work fine.

P.S. Take care with the established bio media...keep it emersed in aquarium water...do not let it dry out.

Best of luck...hope this helps.


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## rkay (May 8, 2011)

vrodolfo said:


> My suggestion would be not to increase your current bio load. Believe it or not, so called "on the shelf bio media additives" do nothing to establish the bio filter in an aquarium (Bio-Spira is an exception to this rule and only if it is kept refridgerated). Many will simply sequester ammonia making it non toxic for a short while, so let them stay on the shelf where they belong.
> 
> A brand new tank will typically cycle in 4 to 6 weeks given a source of ammonia and no viable sources of nitrifying bacteria. Five days is certainly not enough time to establish the bio filter.
> 
> ...


I would love to do something like this but sadly don't know anyone else with an aquarium.

Also I tested a couple days ago and had .25ppm or slightly lower ammonia.

Also would the said bacteria product that makes ammonia non-toxic for awhile, when it does that is the ammonia still useful for cycling or does it like "kill it". Cause if it doesn't impede the cycling severely. I wouldn't see the harm in using it to help out my fish from not being hurt too much


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## vrodolfo (Apr 7, 2011)

No these products do not kill ammonia or nitrite, they simply sequester it making it non toxic for a while. These so called "snake oil" bio media additives will actually stall / prolong the cycling of the tank. In your case, I suggest using Seachem's Prime (which is their Stability product in a different and cheaper bottle); this product will help sequester the ammonia and nitrite making them non toxic. But if levels get too high, a PWC (partial water change) will do the trick to bring levels back down, unfortunately this will also lead to the prolonging of your cycle but will keep your critters alive and some what healthy.

But I will go one step further with you, I have been meaning to try cycling a tank with a product called SeptoBac (actually I just dropped some in my tank an hour ago...well not literally).

I wanted to cycle another 75 gallon show tank for African Cichlids; I have an extremely pure source of ammonia (ammonium chloride FC99.9%) which I use to traditionally cycle my tanks (I bought 500g of the stuff on ebay...enough to cycle 100 tanks or more).

Well this tank is just p*ssing me off, its been 8 days and I spiked the tank with a 4ppm dose of ammonia on day one and nothing...nada...zip (I think the tank is just too clean and sterile). I am still at 4ppm ammonia, 0 ppm Nitrite, 0 ppm Nitrate. This is probably because my water chemistry may be too hostile for the nitrifying bacteria to grow naturally (ph 8.2, kH 14, GH 15 - great for African Cichlids though) so its time I kick start this thing into high gear thus adding the SeptoBac.

So I basically used the following:

Walmart - SeptoBac $4.87 (http://www.septobac.com/)
Dollarama - Permanent Coffee Filter - $ 2.00
Some zip ties I had kicking around
A stick that we use to roast marshmallows with (a new one of course)
And a paper coffee filter

I used the zip ties to attatch the permanent coffee filter (lined with the paper coffee filter first) to the stick and placed the rig on top of my aquarium. I cut the stick / skewer to the length of the aquarium so that I can still kinda close it with the glass lid and presto...a SeptoBac dosing device.

I poured the SeptoBac into the coffee filter (it comes in 8oz packets...they say on other forums that one packet is enough to jump start a 150 gallon tank...so I used half a packet) cause I sure as hell don't want this stuff polluting the clarity of my tank...I just want the bacteria which should easily pass through the coffee filters provided that this stuff even works at all...a little skeptical to say the least.

I'll leave it in there for a day or two and I'll let you know how it goes...If this goes great...this maybe the new way I'll cycle all my tanks from here on out (getting bio media from a foriegn tank always runs the risk of introducing unwanted parasites in the new tank but it certainly does speed up the cycling process).

Regards and best of luck.


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## vrodolfo (Apr 7, 2011)

I strongly recommend not using SeptoBac to cycle a tank. This product's enzymes began to break down an aquarium safe epoxy I used to build my Hamburger Matten filter / moving bed filter (hybrid design I came up with and use it in all my tanks). In addition, after a period of 48 hours, it did absolutely nothing to the ammonia level in the tank...4ppm, 0ppm nitrite, 0ppm nitrate. Anyone who says different is merely spreading hogwash.

Immediate 300% WC. Who knows what this product would to live fish...probably melt them! This is case in point why aquarists do a fishless cycle. Starting over...never again! Lesson learned.

Unfortunately nothing truly helps to cycle a tank other than introducing bio media from an established tank...recommend using Ammonium Chloride as a pure source of ammonia. 
After 8 days of cycling my new African Cichlid tank (tried naturally...no established bio media) and the SeptoBac disaster, I added a 3 month old piece of filter floss from an established tank (1 year plus) and after the first day, here are the results:

Start:
4ppm Ammonia
0ppm Nitrite
0ppm Nitrate

Day 1:
1ppm Ammonia
0.25ppm Nitrite
0 – 5ppm Nitrate

All I have to say is, OMG! I am currently on day 5 and I really can’t see this going to 14 days. My cycle should be complete by day 10.
Now spiking the tank to 5ppm on a daily basis and it gets completely consumed in 12 to 14 hours...the nitrite levels are still too high (3ppm) but that will change soon...hopefully. Nitrate levels are obviously off the charts.

Mistake 1: Do not buffer the initial water going into a new tank while cycling...it will inhibit the growth of nitrifying bacteria. Lesson learned.

Mistake 2: Never use SeptoBac to cycle a tank. Lesson learned. 

Final recommendation, buy, beg, borrow, steal some bio media from your local fish store (as you can see...used filter floss works great) and stuff it in your filter. As you can see, nothing beats it.


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## rkay (May 8, 2011)

Yeah I'm having zero luck in my cycle and its been over 3 weeks now with no nitrites. Going to try to get some used media, gravel, water or something.


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