# Dwarf Hairgrass questions



## Philip.Chan.92 (Apr 25, 2010)

This is for my 10 gallon standard tank for shrimps. My lighting is 2 x 13 watt 6500K Compact fluorescent bulbs. I am planning to plant dwarf hairgrass as a full carpet in the tank. Can I use silica pool filter sand as substrate? I do not plan to dose with ferts but I will be using CO2. The lighting is sufficient and so is the CO2, is pool filter silica sand ok for substrate? Any suggestions or feedback?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Your substrate is fine. However, without fertilizers, you may have some trouble getting the Dwarf Hairgrass to really take off.


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## Philip.Chan.92 (Apr 25, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> Your substrate is fine. However, without fertilizers, you may have some trouble getting the Dwarf Hairgrass to really take off.


I am planning to do shrimp tank so what ferts would be safe to use with them? I hear excel kills them. I want as low maintenance as possible with a lush carpet, any suggestions?


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## penpal (Feb 20, 2009)

Dry ferts are fine, Ive used the flourish line even excel as well and my shrimps were fine.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I want as *low maintenance as possible with a lush carpet*, any suggestions?


Not likely to happen. By definition, a lush carpet is hard to achieve without high light/high maintenance.



penpal said:


> Dry ferts are fine, Ive used the flourish line even excel as well and my shrimps were fine.


+1. Dry fertilizers as well as Flourish Excel, in the proper doses, are fine for shrimp.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

What about the flourish line of liquid ferts?
Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium?

also,
sand and plants is not a good mix. Sure, maybe some people have done it well. But in my recent experience (at this moment) my growth has stunted, roots are dying and becoming weak, and I find it really hard to keep plants PLANTED.

plus, there isn't any nutrient value in sand, and with no ferts you wouldn't be able to get dwarf hairgrass to carpet.

A gravel with laterite will at least allow excess food to sink between the crevices and provide some nutrients to the roots.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

BettaBeats said:


> What about the flourish line of liquid ferts?
> Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium?


These are probably even safer than dry fertilizers, as they are mostly water and very hard to overdose on.



BettaBeats said:


> But in my recent experience (at this moment) my growth has stunted, roots are dying and becoming weak, and I find it really hard to keep plants PLANTED.


This likely has nothing to do with your substrate being sand.



BettaBeats said:


> plus, there isn't any nutrient value in sand, and with no ferts you wouldn't be able to get dwarf hairgrass to carpet.
> 
> A gravel with laterite will at least allow excess food to sink between the crevices and provide some nutrients to the roots.


Another possible solution is to get a substrate (such as Flourite) that has a high CEC, allowing it to hold onto nutrients.


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## Philip.Chan.92 (Apr 25, 2010)

I really like sand, not gravel. I will dose with excel then. Is a 500ml bottle for $12 a good deal?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

You can get it cheaper if you buy larger volumes, and also if you purchase from MOPS.


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## Philip.Chan.92 (Apr 25, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> You can get it cheaper if you buy larger volumes, and also if you purchase from MOPS.


Might buy a 2L one. How long will that last me for 2 x 10 gallon tanks? 

I am a little confused, I read your sticky that flourish excel is for CO2. Is it CO2 as well as ferts? Please clarify this for me.


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## Philip.Chan.92 (Apr 25, 2010)

Alright, did some research and excel is just a CO2 supplement. I am planning to use yeast DIY for CO2. Seachem has good ferts?


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## penpal (Feb 20, 2009)

Ya seachem ferts are good, but their not as concentrated as dry ferts.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Might buy a 2L one. How long will that last me for 2 x 10 gallon tanks?


You can figure this out based on the dosage for a 10g tank.



Philip.Chan.92 said:


> I am a little confused, I read your sticky that flourish excel is for CO2. Is it CO2 as well as ferts? Please clarify this for me.





Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Alright, did some research and excel is just a CO2 supplement. I am planning to use yeast DIY for CO2.


If you are using DIY CO2, then there is no need for Excel, unless you want to use it to combat the occasional algae, etc. You can also use it in addition to the CO2, but really, there is no need if your CO2 is stable.



Philip.Chan.92 said:


> Seachem has good ferts?





penpal said:


> Ya seachem ferts are good, but their not as concentrated as dry ferts.


+1. Get dry fertilizers. Seachem fertilizers are mostly water anyway.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> This likely has nothing to do with your substrate being sand.
> Another possible solution is to get a substrate (such as Flourite) that has a high CEC, allowing it to hold onto nutrients.


Flourite is what I am looking at.

What would cause the melted roots and stunted growth?
I don't want to start another thread..
I'll just PM you.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> +1. Get dry fertilizers. Seachem fertilizers are mostly water anyway.


It's true. Only 2% of the bottle, and sometimes 1% of the bottle is just fertilizer. However, its a lot easier to dose a 10 gal tank and not screw it up with liquid ferts. Mine were $7-9 each for 500ml from Mops.ca


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

About the sand thing, you could just mix sand with flourite, that's what I do. You can sort of start with a nice layer of flourite on the bottom, add sand and mix it up, then add a final thin layer of sand on the top. That would make it super easy for the dwarf hairgrass to root in and "take off" as someone else put it. You could even do that in such a way that you wouldn't even be able to see the flourite if a uniform sandy bottom is what you're after. My 2 cents.


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## Philip.Chan.92 (Apr 25, 2010)

there are quite a few seachem liquid ferts, which one should I get for a shrimp tank? for a puffer tank? I wanna use liquid ferts to avoid overdosing, they are only 10 gallons afterall.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

You need Seachem NPK for your macros, as well as their micronutrient mix (Seachem Flourish).


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## Jsu (Dec 4, 2009)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...CmR7QjeFt7mFpg

I followed similar procedures from this article using pot soil and sand as substrate in a 1.5 gal tank. What i did was mixing sand, little bit of gravel and soil for a bottom layer and topped with about 1/4" sand. I have HM, drawf HG, sagitaria and riccia growing in a dry start method. Riccia and HM is doing really good, they both formed a nice carpet. DHG is grow great but it is spreading slow compare to growing in water with CO2 and fert. Im planning to fill it with water in a month or so. i want the soil to be cycled thoroughly. ITs been 2 months since the project started and sorry i cant take pics cuz not camera.


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## shrtmann (Feb 15, 2009)

i would use dry ferts instead of the liquid ones. If you are an avid WC kind of guy/girl then use the EI method and you wont have to worry about overdosing. 

Also you can mix florite sand mix in with silica sand to create a nice mix and florite snad comes in so many different colors.


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

shrtmann said:


> i would use dry ferts instead of the liquid ones. If you are an avid WC kind of guy/girl then use the EI method and you wont have to worry about overdosing.
> 
> Also you can mix florite sand mix in with silica sand to create a nice mix and florite snad comes in so many different colors.


you're suggesting dry ferts for a noob?

they are cheap,
but then you need proper measuring tools, etc.

you can pay less than $20 from Mops.ca for HUGE bottles of liquid fert Seachem line, and see amazing results.

Especially with a tank you're size, the propbability of ODing dry ferts is great.

$15 for the liquid ferts, a $0.38 cent syringe from shoppers and some $10 CO2, you're seeing amazing O2 bubbles.

If I had a way to meet up with you, I would donate some ferts for you to try. 
N,P,K and Flourish.


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## shrtmann (Feb 15, 2009)

really dry ferts are not as overwhelming as most ppl think. I was a bit concerned at myself when i first started using dry ferts but really with a few simple kitchen measuring spoons, which you can get at the dollar store, you are mixing dry ferts easily. And its not a matter of overdosing at all if you follow a plan. Instead of a syringe or capful your mixing into a measuring spoon. And your never doing this over your aquarium. 

I did some liquid ferts at fist too and am now on dry ferts now and i honestly believe dry are the way to go. Just as easy and tons cheaper.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Dry fertilizers can be used by an inexperienced aquarist, provided they do some basic research first.

"Special" tools are not required, a set of measuring spoons that can measure smaller than 1/8 teaspoon is ideal, but you can still work with "normal" measuring spoons and keep the concentration the same simply by doubling the volume of water, etc.

Alternatively, a cheap scale that has an accuracy of 0.1g or better is also relatively cheap.

Regarding the pricing of the Seachem line, do not forget that you will need all three NPK as well as their trace mix. A 500 mL bottle of each costs $9.33, so you are looking at more than $20 as an initial cost.


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## shrtmann (Feb 15, 2009)

i just used the the spoons for smidgens and dashes


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

hi i already dose flourish excel and flourish. do i need other ferts in order to grow plants well?? what is npk??


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

You may need other fertilizers to grow your plants well, depending on the amount of light you have.

NPK stands for nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, some of the more important macronutrients that plants require that can be dosed into the aquarium.

For more information on a (medium-high light) planted tank, take a look at the article that I wrote (it is stickied at the top of this subforum).


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

do i need to buy each those?? so excel is not efficient alone??


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

camboy012406 said:


> do i need to buy each those?? so excel is not efficient alone??


This is correct; you will need nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, as well as the trace mix if you choose to go with the Seachem line of products.

Again, you may not need to dose fertilizers, depending on your lighting situation.


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

I have cfl 13 watt for 5 gallon and 2x13 on 10 gallon. that npk I think danger for the shrimps??


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## Big Jim (Jan 7, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> This is correct; you will need nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, as well as the trace mix if you choose to go with the Seachem line of products.
> 
> Again, you may not need to dose fertilizers, depending on your lighting situation.


Also Seachem are fairly weak. You need to dose about triple what the bottle says.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

camboy012406 said:


> I have cfl 13 watt for 5 gallon and 2x13 on 10 gallon. that npk I think danger for the shrimps??


I dose NPK as well as CSM+B (it has copper in it too!) into my ADA Mini-S that contains RCS with no worries at all.

Keep in mind that it is the dose that makes the poison; the little amount of copper that is in shrimp food as well as CSM+B is not harmful unless overdosed (not to mention that many of the heavy metals in CSM+B are chelated with EDTA).

This applies for the nitrates, phosphates and other chemicals we are adding to the aquarium when fertilizing aquatic plants.

Finally, given your lighting situation, you will likely not need to dose your 5 gallon tank. For your 10 gallon tank, you may need to dose, but it is more of a "touch and go" situation. It is not a significant amount of light, but if you are noticing some nutrient deficiencies, then it may be prudent to dose.



Big Jim said:


> Also Seachem are fairly weak. You need to dose about triple what the bottle says.


This is why I always advocated dry chemicals from the start 

Commercial products can get expensive fairly quickly, especially if you are dosing EI style!


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

wow, thanks anthony, il try to look for npk. gtw where did u gought thoSe dry ferts? coz maybe im gonna setup a new tank and start dryferts method.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I got them from Hydrotech Hydroponics. 

You can get them from any local hydroponics store; they are scattered throughout the GTA.


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## shrtmann (Feb 15, 2009)

i got mine off the net mail order...aquariumfertilizers.com i beleive


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