# Tank Questions!



## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

So now the freshwater fish and tank is gone. I can plan for the salt tank. 

It will be a 75 gal instead of the 90 gal (I just don't like how I can't reach the bottom of the tank without a step stool)

So 48" x 18" x 20"

Questions so far....

1 - Starphire glass or Regular (does it really matter?)
2 - Bottom drilled 1.5" and 3/4" ??
3 - Sump setup (left protein skimmer, middle return, right fuge)

Thanks


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

try to consider this tank

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-acc...t-out-corals-fish-liverock-W0QQAdIdZ497894166

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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

I saw it but it would be too wide for me.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

You're on the right track! Take a bit of time to look at a few tanks and possibly check out a few tanks around town in peoples houses. This will help out alot looking at other peoples plumbing and problems they might have had. I know from personal experience that I can tell you a few things that you shouldn't do but it would be easier to explain when we're looking at a tank.

I'll tell you when you pick up your cheese


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

If you have the opportunity, I would split the drain line between the skimmer and fuge section and put the return in the middle. You want the skimmed water going straight back to the tank, not passing over a rubble section possibly collecting detritus etc on its way back up. That will also mean only drain line water flows into the rubble section allowing the macro algae to do its work. 

Also the if you tee the drain line off to the fuge you can always just shut it off with a ball valve to clean that section and leave the skimmer running. It adds a level of redundancy that might be useful later.


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

Also, I would go for depth over height any day of the week. If you can't go 48x20x20, I'd go 48x22x16. (16" tall). The depth provides a real natural 'reef effect', for lack of a better term, and more aquascaping choices. (im surprised Sig didn't jump on that!)  Or get a lower tank stand so that you can reach in.


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

duckhams said:


> If you have the opportunity, I would split the drain line between the skimmer and fuge section and put the return in the middle. You want the skimmed water going straight back to the tank, not passing over a rubble section possibly collecting detritus etc on its way back up. That will also mean only drain line water flows into the rubble section allowing the macro algae to do its work.
> 
> Also the if you tee the drain line off to the fuge you can always just shut it off with a ball valve to clean that section and leave the skimmer running. It adds a level of redundancy that might be useful later.


I kept the stand for my 90 gallon so I'll be reusing it and I believe I'll be doing what you are saying left side protein skimmer, middle return, right fuge. Also the drill holes will be at the bottom of the tank (save space)


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

Fish_Man said:


> I kept the stand for my 90 gallon so I'll be reusing it and I believe I'll be doing what you are saying left side protein skimmer, middle return, right fuge. Also the drill holes will be at the bottom of the tank (save space)


Sounds like a plan!


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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

sounds like you're on the right track. imo, go all out on the tank when you buy it, if you don't get starfire glass, you'll regret it. non starfire glass is just fine but it's one of those things if your getting a new tank made, might aswell.


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

Flexin5 said:


> sounds like you're on the right track. imo, go all out on the tank when you buy it, if you don't get starfire glass, you'll regret it. non starfire glass is just fine but it's one of those things if your getting a new tank made, might aswell.


Guess I'll have to go Starphire 

I got a question on the sump design.... does it make sense and will it work?

I have the baffle from the fuge to return higher than the protein to return. Because I want the fuge to hold more water and the best water level for the protein skimmer is 7 - 10".


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

That would work, but might be more than you need. Why not delete the far left baffles and just let the drain flow into the skimmer section, the bubble trap going into the return section will be enough there. On the far right side for the fuge, you really dont need 3 baffles there. The flow in the fuge will be low and you want pods and bugs to flow into the display to feed your creatures. So just put up a nice high wall, about 1.5-2" below the top of the sump and let the water cascade over it. You wont even hear it the flow will be so low. I did this on my last sump, worked great. (you can always drill a safety drain in the fuge wall too and just plumb it with hose to let it drain silently. Win win. Give yourself enough height in the return section for your pump to run at full capacity without emptying it (depending on the size of your pump, make sure your baffles aren't too close together and limit flow, 3/4"-1" apart is loads more than you'll need).

Your other option is to have the fuge in a separate tank completely. Which makes for easy maintenance, especially in a few years when you need to swap out your DSB. Have a look what Explor3r did under his 205 gallon.


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

+1 on the above.

here:


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

duckhams said:


> That would work, but might be more than you need. Why not delete the far left baffles and just let the drain flow into the skimmer section, the bubble trap going into the return section will be enough there. On the far right side for the fuge, you really dont need 3 baffles there. The flow in the fuge will be low and you want pods and bugs to flow into the display to feed your creatures. So just put up a nice high wall, about 1.5-2" below the top of the sump and let the water cascade over it. You wont even hear it the flow will be so low. I did this on my last sump, worked great. (you can always drill a safety drain in the fuge wall too and just plumb it with hose to let it drain silently. Win win. Give yourself enough height in the return section for your pump to run at full capacity without emptying it (depending on the size of your pump, make sure your baffles aren't too close together and limit flow, 3/4"-1" apart is loads more than you'll need).
> 
> Your other option is to have the fuge in a separate tank completely. Which makes for easy maintenance, especially in a few years when you need to swap out your DSB. Have a look what Explor3r did under his 205 gallon.


Hmmmm... more questions now.

Wasn't 100% sure what the baffle was for expect to trap bubbles. (I thought it was so bubbles don't go into the skimmer and return).

Also I wanted a "baffle" on the left so any particles don't go into the skimmer and stay in that chamber.

Ok no baffle on the right but I'm not really understanding the whole safety drain thing.

I'll be running an eheim 1262 as the return.

So I'm guessing to have enough water in the return section I would need the baffle from protein skimmer to return higher? So I would need to put the protein skimmer on a stand?


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

fesso clown said:


> +1 on the above.
> 
> here:


Why do you have the return going to the fuge (i'm guessing) and back to the tank?


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

Fish_Man said:


> Hmmmm... more questions now.
> 
> Wasn't 100% sure what the baffle was for expect to trap bubbles. (I thought it was so bubbles don't go into the skimmer and return).
> 
> ...


Particles will end up in the skimmer either way, unless you run a 100 micron filter sock. The baffles wont stop particles, just bubbles. The skimmer creates bubbles to skim, so it doesn't matter if they go in from the drain line.

The 'safety drain' would be a 1.5" hole drilled in the fuge wall with a strainer on the fuge side and down turned 90 elbow with tube running it just below the water line of your return section. This allows water to escape from the fuge section silently. If it gets blocked for any reason, then it will just waterfall over the fuge wall (again, likely silently).

Fesso Clown has the return Tee'd off into the 'fuge rather than the drain line going into the 'fuge, it still functions the same way as you plan, but some prefer Tee'ing the drain line into the 'fuge to increase efficiency. The actual increase in its efficiency to process organic material/P04/N03 will be minuscule, so it's win win however you do it.

Great design fesso!


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

Fish_Man said:


> Hmmmm... more questions now.
> 
> I'll be running an eheim 1262 as the return.
> 
> So I'm guessing to have enough water in the return section I would need the baffle from protein skimmer to return higher? So I would need to put the protein skimmer on a stand?


If you are running an Eheim 1262 you will be fine with it in 6-7" of water. I run mine in 7"x14" chamber with 6"+ of water and have had no problems. Just hook up your ATO in the return section to keep the water level set and you're gold. You want to think about the available flow in each section (mainly the return) and the total water volume of that section. You dont want still surface water or slime and debris will build up. A slightly lower water height in the return section with a good ATO will work better than having it 10" full. I'd use fesso's design. The sump and skimmer both draining into the middle return and solve that issue completely. 
You're asking good questions. I wish I had asked all these when I set my first sump up. I had to learn these little tricks the hard way.


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

duckhams said:


> If you are running an Eheim 1262 you will be fine with it in 6-7" of water. I run mine in 7"x14" chamber with 6"+ of water and have had no problems. Just hook up your ATO in the return section to keep the water level set and you're gold. You want to think about the available flow in each section (mainly the return) and the total water volume of that section. You dont want still surface water or slime and debris will build up. A slightly lower water height in the return section with a good ATO will work better than having it 10" full. I'd use fesso's design. The sump and skimmer both draining into the middle return and solve that issue completely.
> You're asking good questions. I wish I had asked all these when I set my first sump up. I had to learn these little tricks the hard way.


Ok good to know. I'm still trying to figure out how big of a sump I can fit under the stand (its one of those BA stand with a middle piece in the front and back so I'll have to angle it to get it inside the stand)

Guess I'll change it up to fesso's design (thanks!). I was planning to put a powerhead also in the fuge for flow.

Also do you need to use a filter sock on the drainline?

ATO will be later on in the planning stage (don't have a clue how to set it up yet)


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

Fish_Man said:


> Ok good to know. I'm still trying to figure out how big of a sump I can fit under the stand (its one of those BA stand with a middle piece in the front and back so I'll have to angle it to get it inside the stand)
> 
> Guess I'll change it up to fesso's design (thanks!). I was planning to put a powerhead also in the fuge for flow.
> 
> ...


On the ATO, take a peek at the Tunze Osmolator. I use it on my tank, the same unit has run for almost 4 years without a hiccup. Infrared sensor keeps the water line within mm of your level, very accurate.

You don't NEED to use a filter sock on the drain line, but it does keep things clean. Filter floss works for some, personally I use 200 micron socks with a couple of mesh socks as backups.

On your stand, are you sure that centre brace doesn't just unscrew and come out (like mine). Look on the inside of the brace for the screws. I bet it will come out. And then you can use any sump you want!


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Fish_Man said:


> Why do you have the return going to the fuge (i'm guessing) and back to the tank?


good one, but it is waste of money to install gate valves. You will rarely using these and in case of emergence there is no way to close them fast as a ball walve

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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

sig said:


> good one, but it is waste of money to install gate valves. You will rarely using these and in case of emergence there is no way to close them fast as a ball walve


I agree. Keep it cheap and cheerful.


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## badmedicine (Oct 27, 2012)

fish man:
I looked at your plan for your refugium. That is how I did mine at first. What I forgot was that the drain line from my tank to the refugium will contain air bubbles. Not a big deal but I was expecting just raw water going into my refugium. I ended up having a very reduce water flow (no big deal)and a small pump in the pump area supplementing the fuge. 

I like the bubble trap in the protein skimmer area. I just bought a VERTEX 150 and they say not to have any bubbles in the area as it causes cavitation of motor and voids warranty. It makes too much bubbles in the cone anyways (but very little on exit).

I have "9" inch wall on protein skimmer side and "13" wall on refugium side and pump section is in between.
50 gal sump.


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## badmedicine (Oct 27, 2012)

I also forgot to mention that my 3 glass wall on the protein skimmer side is first under a pane of glass followed by a "9" pane of glass on the bottom and finally another pane from the top- "1" gap to allow for flow.

A single pane of glass on the refugium side allowing for a cascade into the pump area in the middle.


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

badmedicine said:


> fish man:
> I like the bubble trap in the protein skimmer area. I just bought a VERTEX 150 and they say not to have any bubbles in the area as it causes cavitation of motor and voids warranty. It makes too much bubbles in the cone anyways (but very little on exit).


How about turning the skimmer so that the pump intake is away from the drain line. You shouldn't have an issue with bubbles then.


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## Fish_Man (Apr 9, 2010)

badmedicine said:


> fish man:
> I looked at your plan for your refugium. That is how I did mine at first. What I forgot was that the drain line from my tank to the refugium will contain air bubbles. Not a big deal but I was expecting just raw water going into my refugium. I ended up having a very reduce water flow (no big deal)and a small pump in the pump area supplementing the fuge.
> 
> I like the bubble trap in the protein skimmer area. I just bought a VERTEX 150 and they say not to have any bubbles in the area as it causes cavitation of motor and voids warranty. It makes too much bubbles in the cone anyways (but very little on exit).
> ...


Good to know, thanks!

Also the Tunze ATO is pretty cool but $$$ for an ATO isn't it? I know its better to spend more on it so I don't have a flooded floor or a dried out return pump.


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Fish_Man said:


> Why do you have the return going to the fuge (i'm guessing) and back to the tank?


The return T's off to the fuge for 2 reasons:
-to get water to the fuge 
- to regulate the amount of water flow going up to the DT from the return pump without "throttling" the return pump with a valve. If the pump has a higher GPH then your drain you can just send water back to the sump in a loop. I also have a 1262 and this is the sump design I chose. 
The benefits of this design:
-100% of DT water comes to the Skimmer chamber first. 
-Fuge can be isolated completely from the system for cleaning and maintainence ect while still running. 
- Critters from the fuge travel up to the DT with no chance of being skimmed

You don't need to use gate valves, I didn't, ball valves do the trick. I also changed the placement of the valves on the return line a bit from the diagram I linked to. 
I have a ball valve directly after my 1262 then the T to the fuge and a Ball valve on the way to the fuge. 
Hope that helps.


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

Fish_Man said:


> Good to know, thanks!
> 
> Also the Tunze ATO is pretty cool but $$$ for an ATO isn't it? I know its better to spend more on it so I don't have a flooded floor or a dried out return pump.


The less expensive DIY ATO's can work just as well. My tank is in my home office, so 'mishaps' are not an option, so I went with something tried and tested for the reliability and warranty. At this point, for you, its win win. An ATO is better than no ATO. I would run 2 DIY units side by side so that if one ever failed the other would carry the load.


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

fesso clown said:


> - to regulate the amount of water flow going up to the DT from the return pump without "throttling" the return pump with a valve. If the pump has a higher GPH then your drain you can just send water back to the sump in a loop. I also have a 1262 and this is the sump design I chose.


I run my Eheim 1262 at full throttle all the way to the display on 3/4" lines, with 7 x 90's, 3 x unions and a ball valve, it still puts out a lot of flow. But I run a beananimal so the siphon handles more than I can throw at it. You will definitely need to throttle it back, you might be ok if you're running at least 2 x 1.25" durso's (my best guess), and even then it will probably be pretty loud.


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

I love my Avast Marine ATO. No moving parts, works with a pressure sensor. Has a back-up float switch that I never installed. I use mine with an aqua lifter pump but the more expensive deluxe package comes with a proper peristaltic dosing pump.

http://www.avastmarine.com/ssc/do/product/rigging/Top-off-Kit
See it in action:




A review:


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## badmedicine (Oct 27, 2012)

I like the looks of the HYDOR ATO water control system. Not prone to the multiple errors that most ATO have. Not affected by salt, or eye sensors, it looks clean and fool proof.
When they will come to CANADA is not yet mentioned.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

I think an ATO is one of the best investments you can make regardless of which brand or style you use. 

I build mine out of cheap generic dehumidifier style float valves and have never had any issues of any sort with them. I run some of them gravity fed and some powered by a pump. I use the 1/4 plastic line and speed connectors that you can buy at any hardware store.

They are very simple and they pay off large dividends in tank stability. My RO/DI feeds the main ATO reservoir which I also use to dose my tanks.


I do not build my sumps like those shown but I have and there is certainly nothing wrong with those designs. I have come to prefer a chamber filled with Matrix in the middle of my sumps that acts as a bubble/particulate trap. I've used Matrix for many years and it is just a simple preference thing.


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