# dwarf sea horses



## drknight (May 25, 2009)

I've converted my 15G tall tank and was wondering if anyone knows where I can get a few pairs of dwarf seahorses. Also, anyone know where I can pick up some marine plants or maybe if someone is doing a trim??


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

Big Ray said:


> 15 G fro a pair of seahorses ?
> 
> hmmm will be tough ! do some research, the data on seahorse.org are ont that updated neither.
> 
> ...


From what i've read a few pairs of dwarf seahorses can even be kept in a 5 G tank, about 2" in size. No plans for a sump, at least not yet. Currently using a AC30 for water filtration but plan on getting the Rio Nano Protein Skimmer which also doubles as a filter. So maybe I can then use the AC30 to grow some macro? Since no coral will be going into this tank I won't worry about lighting too much but might search for some LED lights to reduce heat, currently have a regular fluorescent tube in the hood. I also have Zoo Med powersweep 228 in the tank right now but i think it'll be too strong for the seahorses


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

They will definitely be a challenge to keep but seem to be worth it. You're always a big help! Thanks!!!


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

I actually just found someone that has dwarf seahorses (H. zosterae) but not till July/August. So, I'll probably wait till then.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

If you do regular water changes, you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping seahorses. They aren't *that* demanding. The only problem I've had in the past is getting them to initially eat. Once they start, they do quite well.

I'd recommend maybe using an eheim 2213, with a sponge over the output (or something to stem the flow a little bit). You could remove the media and use liverock or something similar.

You could also grow Caulerpa or some other nice macro algae as well to help battle any nitrates, plus it will give the Seahorses something to hang on to.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

Im sorry ray spoke in your thread, most of it is wrong. the kind of seahorses he has have care methods totally different than the zosterae you originally mentioned. I would refer this thread over to Pete Giwonja's forum and see how many opposite things he has to type about it, he's the h zosterae master of the freaking internet trust me Pete is the consultant you want, not ray.

here's his forum, start up a thread and see what kind of actual science is written for you he's amazing!

http://www.seahorse.com/

ray quoted seahorse.org but typed that you can feed a dwarf zosterae a mysis shrimp, which is 60% the size of its body, that's too bad.
He also mentioned using live rock in a dwarf seahorse tank, without using panacur, go start a thread over there and see what actual zosterae keepers think about that. No one has mentioned hydroids in this thread while talking about keeping h. zosterae or the continual bbrine drip?


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

Chris S said:


> If you do regular water changes, you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping seahorses. They aren't *that* demanding. The only problem I've had in the past is getting them to initially eat. Once they start, they do quick well.
> 
> I'd recommend maybe using an eheim 2213, with a sponge over the output (or something to stem the flow a little bit). You could remove the media and use liverock or something similar.
> 
> You could also grow Caulerpa or some other nice macro algae as well to help battle any nitrates, plus it will give the Seahorses something to hang on to.


would a Marineland Hang On Tank magnum canister filter work the same as the eheim (that's if i don't put too much LR in it)?


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

Ray please respond to these exact sentences without editing your previous posts-

-why did you write to feed a zosterae mysis shrimp?
-why did you fail to mention the risk of hydroids and how these are a unique concern for dwarf tanks and not any other type of seahorse except for possibly pygmies>?
-why did you recommend using live rock in any part of that setup for dwarfs?
-why didn't you discuss the use of panacur as a systemic treatment for hydroids?


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

Ray Im just sorry for you man. not mentioning hydroids, not even knowing what they are (quick, google!) and saying that any living human has raised a population of ZOSTERAE on frozen, non moving mysis shrimp, makes me wonder why you even typed in this thread. All you have done is take the methods other people taught you about Reidi or large species and try to cross apply that to a totally different approach required for dwarfs. recipe for failure.

Man, if you listen to Ray trouble lies ahead. Please go rewrite this post at seahorse.com

seahorse.org is not a good site, they are really closed minded admins but the posting community is fine. Keeping live rock in any part of the closed loop of a dwarf seahorse tank is terrible, without panacur, but only if you talk to zosterae professionals who don't deal in one-off setups. Long term, dwarfs are totally different and any in-depth research will soon verify this.

Please cut and paste Ray's EXACT recommendations wherever your post, then update us on what they have to say. It will be a mix of laughter, insults towards such terrible advice, dwarf husbands take their craft really serious but more important they have SPECIES level accurate information. What works for mustangs could not possibly be any more opposite of what works for zosterae.

Ray you have time at work to levy insults in a non productive manner, and spew false husbandry information though, then post up all the back-tracks, right?

Ocean rider, the site I linked for you above, is the baddest seahorse production facility I've ever heard of. Why anyone would get seahorse information from anywhere other than that place is beyond me~ Pete Giwonja is the ONLY guy you want to talk to, I have never seen a more knowledgeable or well written manager of his craft that PG at oceanrider hawaii


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Big Ray said:


> Live rock in a canister ?
> 
> for seahorses ?
> 
> ...


Why not? Flow over live rock = filtration, no? What would you fill the canister filter with that would be more effective? You could, in fact, leave the filter empty and provide enough liverock in the tank instead - but if you want more "room" (especially considering the size), why not put smaller pieces in the filter?

My advice is based on what is available in the GTA, which doesn't involve actual dwarf seahorses. It is also based on my experience in keeping them for clients. Successfully, might I add.

If you want me to get technical, I'm going to have to agree with brandon on various aspects of keeping "dwarf" seahorses. We can start with feeding if you want...I'm pretty sure they won't be eating any mysis shrimp as you suggest.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Keep the thread informative and free of personal shenanigans folks.

Not everything applies all around to every system - whilst LR in a canister might not be good for the average newbie, it still has it's place. In fact, many people have cryptic refugiums, which essentially are the same thing.

Also, I think there's a local H. zosterae breeder who has his colony in a smallish tank, and I believe no sump in the growout tank either.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

will do ameekplec no prob man thanks for kind warning.

The reason people are concerned about live rock inside an h. zosterae tank is because it produces notorious hydroid growths simply as part of the benthic communities that hold up inside live rock waiting to sporulate or sprout as hydromedusae do. they tend to be a permanent fixture of a reef aquarium and the reason they are bad is because they sting zosterae fry for sure, and even the adults will succumb to them in time, this is all from Pete's website I referred. panacur is the way to take them out of a tank, but this also kills most reef fauna so in essence the only h zosterae tank that really lives any proper length of time with them is essentially a fish only setup where that kind of single dominant species controls every parameter of the tank.

I once thought too that seahorses of this species just needed a small tank and small tank care, but in true research in order to keep them alive the right way you have to build a specialized system just like if you were keeping jellyfish.

live rock has no doubt the best water filtration for your buck wasn't debating that, its just not right for h zosterae care that's all.

its correct in 99.9% of any other reef application!


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

What about if you had the live rock seperated from the zosterae? IE. a sump holding all your liverock - that would hold all the ones in polyp stage, but I guess you could still gets those in medusa stage. Would it still be necessary to use fenbendazole?

I'm not sure I'm convinced that hydroids would be able to do much damage, even to a dwarf seahorse. Obviously if we are referring to larger things in the medusa stage, like a man'o'war, then I agree =D

I will confess, I've done little to no reading up on this though, so I am by no means any sort of expert - just making some converstion


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

thats well stated man if you click around for things like dwarf seahorse pico you'll probably find the thread Pete typed up like a six page response, extremely well written material. I was posting the same stance basically, that I couldn't recall seeing any medusas grabbing and holding a dead seahorse in any of the pictures.

In one thread that google can bring up from about 2005 a veterinarian herself was keeping a pico with a few horses and they just died one after another in about a month, with decent tank care per her notes, so I think poor water chemistry would always kill them first before a forest of droids right...

regarding the medication, Pete was the proponent of that since I dont have horse experience I just weighed his words. too bad theres not a natural way of preventing them. one thing is for sure, if you physically scrub live rock periodically nothing will be on it, that seems like it would keep the large physical structures broken down right?

feeding is still the last horizon. I haven't met any marine fish who won't rip cyclopeeze right out of the water, he said even these horses will not take them it has to be a constant brine shrimp drip or refugium setup which is your number one chance of making this work, as a caulerpa refugium dwarf tank. Id try it without the panacur and the live rock, just do sand and caulerpa or even fake rocks that you take out and zap under hot water from time to time!


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Interesting. I'll have to read up on it a bit. Thanks for the info and links.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Big Ray said:


> how about detritus clogging up LR in a canister Hmmm, maybe take it out and rinse it ? llol


That's exactly what you have to do from time to time to prevent excess detrius causing nitrate issues


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## Abner (Apr 7, 2009)

Big Ray said:


> my personal opinion based on what I think and know  noone HAS to follow it lol
> 
> u do as you wish, I just gave my 2 cents, lol
> 
> ...


Lol sorry but i find this little rivalry between you and brandon rather amusing. The thing is both of you give excellent advice based on the amount of reading you must be doing. I would hate to see you guys stop giving advice because of each other. I bet y'all would be great friends if y'all ever sat down and had a beer together. But yeah you guys sent me to read on this whole seahorse thing and in my opinion cuz obviously i don't know anything about it you both are correct up to a point. In the end it all comes down to what we all in the hobby should already know......research the particular species that you are trying to keep(varying requirements for different types of seahorses from what i read) and even then when in your setup be vigilant as these creatures like every other i have come into contact with will sometimes adapt and and seem to break the norms. That being said make sure you make your setup as close to what would be natural for the type of seahorse you wish to keep and keep learning about them.


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

I too find this little rivalry between them a bit amusing to read. Both provide some very helpful info that I could apply to my seahorse tank.


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

I would like to add a sump but I just don't have room and a place to put it. I'd have to get a new stand as well. I might go the canister route. Found someone selling Eheim 2026 for $100. is that a good price? the other half is soo not going to be happy about me buying more fish stuff. lol for now i've switched the AC30 w/ an AC50


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

For a 15g, all you would need is a eheim 2213. You don't need to pack it so full of liverock that there is _any_ detrius building - essentially it is just water flowing through the canister. I'd take out all the insides and just put a bunch of pieces of LR.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

The thing that was shocking to me was that Ray was taking the care requirements for a totally different species of horse, 10x larger versions than a dwarf, and applying that to dwarf care. Why did this not shock anyone else 

He mentioned feeding a dwarf seahorse mysis shrimp, frozen ones, where the shrimps are the same size as the dwarf trying to eat them, not to mention dwarfs will starve on mysis because they will not take them. The horses you are feeding mysis to are not dwarfs, we are clear on that right guys? Brine shrimp hatcheries are not mentioned anywhere in what Ray wrote, its the only known mass food source for a dwarf seahorse tank. Leaving that out is like leaving out the gas tank if you were a car manufacturer. Again, if Ray has written anything accurate about dwarf care in this thread please quote it now...

The hydroids are a problem at all stages of the tank for dwarfs, as Ive listed countless times and given references on where to verify them. Why anyone debates this, without any experience actually keeping dwarfs past the three month mark, is not suprising to me considering what Ray wrote in my thread. The fact people consider any portion of his information valid to this thread is further vexing, please quote the actual sentence that was correct Id like to see it. The only mentality I have as a Texan is zip it if you don't know what you are talking about, that's in general not to anyone specific, I try to abide by it.

In what way has any of Rays advice been good?

I was asked about keeping hydroid-producing live rock separate from the main display, and I responded it will still produce hydroids elsewhere in the tank, where they might could be scrubbed or wiped down. Ray do you understand that we are not trying to achieve the usual affect of live rock, with all the crusty benthic growth, we were considering using its awesome surface area for filtration qualities but the hydroids and benthic surfaces would have to be treated differently, possibly scrubbed down. What else was I going to consider when I just listed over and over you shouldn't use live rock in a dwarf seahorse set per every savvy web forum on the internet?

The amount of time I spend repeating myself to correct Ray may be amusing but I think it's trollish and embarrasing to have to do that in the face of poeple who just want to talk science. You will find very FEW posters like him in the forums, they isolate themselves quickly and its totally obvious when someone is compensating for lack of actual practice by what they write.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Big Ray said:


> my personal opinion based on what I think and know  noone HAS to follow it lol
> 
> u do as you wish, I just gave my 2 cents, lol
> 
> ...


Look, I think you are confused now. His posts are concerning "dwarf" seahorses, which are not the type you keep. A mysis shrimp is at least 50% of the size of a dwarf seahorse, so you could not feed them to a dwarf seahorse. They could not physically eat them.

It is all and well to share your experiences, but you aren't just doing that. You are assuming that your experiences, successful or not, are the only proper way to do things. That in my head is ridiculous. One thing you will eventually learn in this hobby is that there are various ways to achieve the same goals and that doesn't mean one way is wrong or one way is right.

Sure, there is an ideal, perfect way to keep x and y fish, but life doesn't always work like that. In this instance, the poster has a 15g tank, with no sump, no skimmer etc. To say he can't keep seahorses because you have a more technical setup, or to suggest he _has_ to make additions just because you have them isn't really a huge help, especially when other options are available.

Sometimes, however, things are a little more black and white. I would disagree with you when you say seahorses can tolerate a lot of flow. You mention you have 140gph in your smaller tank - that isn't a lot of flow.

In any case, to the original poster: If you want to keep seahorses, I would steer away from dwarfs until you get a bit of experience under your belt. A 15g tank should be able to comfortably hold a pair of "normal" sized seahorses without a problem, assuming you are able to provide the right filtration etc.

To Big Ray: Learn to discuss and learn to absorb knowledge, especially from those with more experience than you (but not exclusively!). It will be the best lesson you learn in this hobby.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Big Ray said:


> what did that even mean ?
> 
> "essentially it is just water flowing" water tht has detritus in it !!! meaning left over food, fish poop and ..... .
> 
> ...


This is my last post on here.

You have no idea what you are talking about.


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

Big Ray said:


> I have to ask, what do you already have in the tank ? is it cycled ? are you just starting it ? any live rock in there ? ... ?
> 
> Eheims are excellent canisters, I have many from FW days,
> 
> ...


As of right now i just have 15 lbs of aragonite and 8.5 lbs of cured LR. In regards to hydroids, i've read that they can be killed by increasing the temp. I think it said to either 30 or 32 degrees.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ray thats incorrect to say the use of dry reef rock will prevent hydroid growth. Not from the rock, but they hitchhike in on so many surfaces you wouldn't think to check they would still arise, you have to treat them like you would in isolating a certain strain of bacteria, a very specific sterility approach it doesn't look like you'd be prepared for in recommending any of this material. Hydroids or their counterparts can hitchhike in on actual animals Ray, the ones you put in your tank~ so if you are talking about LARGER HORSES than dwarfs you may really be onto something. If not, then you are beating, well, a dead horse.



Chris don't let him run you off. Personally I think it reflects well on the management of this forum to let people manage themselves wholly, we have to put up with Ray if we want to type here Im glad ameek keeps things in check from a distance that's great management. 

Ray will have spells where he will either pm or type you something really nice, where you think he's just jabbing you in public for fun like a men's locker room towel smack. But then in the threads it will go 10x sour, and you'll get so mad wondering A. why would anyone show up with something unproductive in a thread here at all, let alone over and over in several threads on the top page and B. why does he even talk to me at all, its like the guy at the bar who comes up and puts his arm over you now even knowing you. 

I agree about not doing dwarfs, if I did a horse tank Id do whichever varieties those are from Oceanrider that are trained to eat frozen mysis, ease of feeding is a deal breaker for me and a constant bs drip *plus* decapsulation (you can't even use standard brine shrimp lol) is the deal breaker. Ray by not researching what you type ahead of time even if you did stumble upon brine shrimp feeding you'd see thats a HUGE source of incoming hydroids, on the capsules of the actual feed source. 

So that's animals that bring them in, feed sources, how long do you think we'd have to press to find about 8 other ways hydroids can get into your non-fenbendazole'd tank?

Dwarf seahorse care is serious biz and nothing like the care of other seahorses, much research is needed from multiple sources before beginning. Then a series of resources should be given to yield those answers...I get real mad when web forums don't work that way lol


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

Chris S said:


> Look, I think you are confused now. His posts are concerning "dwarf" seahorses, which are not the type you keep. A mysis shrimp is at least 50% of the size of a dwarf seahorse, so you could not feed them to a dwarf seahorse. They could not physically eat them.
> 
> It is all and well to share your experiences, but you aren't just doing that. You are assuming that your experiences, successful or not, are the only proper way to do things. That in my head is ridiculous. One thing you will eventually learn in this hobby is that there are various ways to achieve the same goals and that doesn't mean one way is wrong or one way is right.
> 
> ...


Maybe I will considering getting a pair of black seahorses since my tank is about 20" tall, which should be enough room for it to swim up and down the tank.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*----*

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## Abner (Apr 7, 2009)

Big Ray said:


> *
> I would disagree with you when you say seahorses can tolerate a lot of flow. You mention you have 140gph in your smaller tank - that isn't a lot of flow. *
> 
> goto reef central and ask this from SEAHORSE KEEPERS
> ...


Come on now Ray no need to come at people like that...We all have our opinions on how we think things work. I agree with there being more than one way to skin a cat. Cannot impose your way upon people and get angry when they think and say it is otherwise, like you said yourself you give what you think is the right advice and it's up to the person whether or not they want to take said advice. I think you getting a little peeved cuz you feel like some people are taking brandons side and are coming at you but it is not so. You and brandon...yes both of you... give sound advice that the OP should think about and take what he thinks pertains to what he wants to accomplish. I bet nobody notices that becuz of this back and forth we all learned a few new things and something which was said which i think is great advice....maybe try your hand at a couple regular horses(seahorses that is..try fitting a live horse in a tank) before going into dwarfs. Take a chill pill and learn to agree to disagree and don't get mad cuz someone says you are worng we are adults..lol get some quotes that prove you are right lol make this even more fun.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

I know you have good seahorses if I did a tank that size Id have them too but probably pipefish instead. 

they aren't going to delete you man theres been no cussing, threats just old fashioned back and forth.
I don't like to be mean either in threads I just come to type out my opinions in book format lol for the taking or leaving we should have just posted up science debates and not let it get personal Im not mad so if you aren't we should shore it up man.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Im going to to delete some parts I wrote that are not helpful. 



Ray chill man check this out. Remember when I told you in that pm that I got banned for talking about my half gallon reef as a dwarf tank at seahorse.org? They did that simply because I wanted to push the boundaries among their community to see if flow could be down-adjusted in my tank and it could be used as a dwarf tank. Im mean heck, all their writings list smaller tanks 1-3 gallons as the best dwarf farms because the space restiction equals better feeding, yet when I post one up its all of the sudden bad science to them and my thread got shut down mid pace because the lady admin felt my methods were too far against the grain to be legit, that's when Pete G welcomed me at his forum and schooled me on the ways of dwarfs, so I never got any! 

the point is we don't want to lock the threads or for you to leave, just jab with us then we'll all back off at the same time 

its gestapo to close theads and ban people etc, this place promotes self regulation and everyone has bad days on the posting boards man. I need people to challenge my threads but you did it in stressful ways and I responded in stressful ways lets just chill.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*-*

well I guess I can't chase you down the hall man a guy can do as he pleases

I was just saying no one thinks this thread is any big deal man. they can see we are two guys sitting at the computer who should be outside burning calories at least that involves the reader into our scheme in some universal way lol


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

sounds good at least in Randy's article he tested all the ways, from 25% up to 100% and posted up results on both that really clears up the mess. It was neat to see how change -frequency- actually meant more than the volume, relative to the parameters one was trying to import or export. 

I know boomer man from back in the day, Im thinking those talks might have been equally entertaining please for the love of pete don't post them up.


B


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Have you guys made up yet??? Do you need some beers or to wrestle for a bit? 

My mom opened her pool and its really nice! You guys need a cool dip? :3

Want me to delete all the back and forth stuff so you can start over or is everyone cool?

Gosh when its hot, it's hot!


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*--*

if it helps restore things I don't mind any mod editing or erasing any of my material including this post

even though this guy's dwarf seahorse thead isn't really my ground to stage an insult, I jumped here on Ray because of what Ray did to my reefbowl thread unnecessarily and without any provocation whatsoever, read from start to finish and imagine this being my FIRST experience on this board, to encounter what Ray was typing


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## vaporize (Apr 10, 2006)

darn, i missed all these juicy stuff on these threads, gotta read up.


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## brandon4 (Apr 21, 2010)

*---*

this is a GREAT article about these seahorses, coral magazine, this months digital issue.

http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100506#pg19


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## drknight (May 25, 2009)

brandon4 said:


> this is a GREAT article about these seahorses, coral magazine, this months digital issue.
> 
> http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100506#pg19


Thanks for the article!


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