# totally confused and shocked



## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

So as some of you may know, I had/have an ick issue in my tank and I was getting ready to setup an quarantine.

In the tank I originally had
2 small clownfish
2 larger clownfish
A yellowtail similar damsel
A flame angelfish
a six line wrasse
A snail and a hermit crab

At first I lost my two smaller clownfish. I found the one dead and the other is yet to be found although I have come to terms with the fact that he is dead.

then the already sick when I got him angelfish died.

a couple of days ago the damsel started hiding all day but was alive (at least yesterday night it was)

Today I woke up to find BOTH the larger clownfish dead NEXT to each other! Out of nowhere. Never had any spots on them, never hid, always played around, ate etc.

I have no ammonia or nitrites and I have 10-20 nitrates.

I don't understand what happened. I am really shocked especially by the death of the clownfish.

Any ideas/help and advice?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

salinity level ? PH level ?

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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

sig said:


> salinity level ? PH level ?


Specific gravity 1.023
pH 8.0


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

monk21 said:


> Specific gravity 1.023
> pH 8.0


I have no idea than  probably, Just some kind of bacteria

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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

Can ick kill so fast? Can ick kill before even white spots appear? Any of my fish able of killing them? And most importantly, how the heck did they both die at the same time and next to each other???


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## damsel_den (Oct 31, 2011)

how long have you had the tanks set up
how long have you had these fish
how long ago did you add the most recent fish
what size tank is it
what test kit are you using
have you noticed the fish hanging out directly in the flow 
have you noticed any mucous or slime on them

because reading your posts you are new to the hobby and this tank hasn't been set up long.


they look pretty washed out colour wise , and with how fast everyones been dying my guess is either its bacterial or something like brook


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

The tank is set up for a couple of weeks now. All the fish went in at the same time as the live rock, most live sand and some water(and the fish) came from an established aquarium and into mine.

It is 75 gallons. The fish were all over the tank and not in a specific place. They never seemed weird or sick and that is why I am amazed. I had/have ick in the tank but these two never showed any signs of it and they had been eating daily.

I test with API and I have trusted them for years. I am new in saltwater only. I understand that it is different from freshwater but I still have general knowledge. There has to be a reason and I can't see it yet.

The fish in the pic died less than 8 hours ago and before they died yesterday night everything was normal color wise etc


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Unfortunately this is becoming a topic that most of us are seeing more and more often.

Most stores in general will sell you anything you want, unless you get one of the hidden gem stores that will ask you about your tank and the age.

This would be just my opinion so please take it as that:

Adding any type of livestock a few weeks after the tank has been filled with water might be premature. Also, adding livestock when adding the initial live rock would definitely be stressful on the fish. This all added together with the fact that you don't have experience with saltwater would be a license to kill...the fish that is.

I've been keeping saltwater tanks for 3 years now and I can honestly tell you I know enough about the hobby but could always learn more. Please read up on what it takes to maintain a healthy tank and try again. 

Good Luck!

Edit:
What are your other levels?
phosphates?
dkh?
lighting?
flow?


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

altcharacter said:


> Unfortunately this is becoming a topic that most of us are seeing more and more often.
> 
> Most stores in general will sell you anything you want, unless you get one of the hidden gem stores that will ask you about your tank and the age.
> 
> ...


thanks for the input but before blaming the stores and me for mistakes read what I have written again. Thanks


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

There was no blame directed in what alt has said  

If you didnt quarantine the fish as you bought them then you have no idea if they were already sick or not. (i dont quarantine through lack of space) but as such I accept the risk that if I lose livestock it could be through a disease introduced. Again there are a lot of variables and I for one cannot add to the plausible ideas already touted above.

Note: I know you are getting ready to add a quarantine and I hope this helps to reduce the chances of such issues in the future


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

They came together so what would the reason be to quarantine them? And I know now that they came sick. Have of them at least


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

If they came sick and you knew that was the case then sorry to sound abrupt but you should not be surprised that they all died.


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

Please read what has been written. Thanks


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Its all the factors of disease, stress, and a new tank environment.

Even though it was an existing established tank, moving it is still hard on all the inhabitants and there is just as much risk of loss. Even if I were to tear down and move my tank from one room of the house to another, this would still be a risk. Been there and done it. 

Don't be so quick to discount what we are saying. Its not against you personally, but you don't seem to trust us. Maintaining good water quality in a reef tank is like playing Jenga with water balloons. Not for the inexperienced, but can be learned and understood with time. Start slowly now and have patience. Just because you read 0 ammonia today doesn't mean it isn't going to flare up tomorrow. In time, you'll learn how to read your tank, fish, and coral to know that things are off with your water quality.

Parasites can not always be seen, and not every death has an explanation. That said, your existing fish may be okay if given time to recover. If I understand, only surviving fish is the wrasse. He might be okay, usually wrasses are pretty tough. 

There clearly was a problem or disease in the tank when you got it. Now if you want to end these deaths, let the tank be for a minimum of 4 weeks. Don't add anything. ANYTHING. If you want to add hermits or snails, don't do so until testing 0 ammonia every day for 7 days. But nothing else! This will give time for the parasites and their larvae to die. 

If however, you choose to add another fish to the tank before that time, be prepared for a good flaming. 

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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

monk21 said:


> The tank is set up for a couple of weeks now. All the fish went in at the same time as the live rock, most live sand and some water(and the fish) came from an established aquarium and into mine.
> 
> It is 75 gallons. The fish were all over the tank and not in a specific place. They never seemed weird or sick and that is why I am amazed. I had/have ick in the tank but these two never showed any signs of it and they had been eating daily.
> 
> ...


Okay...so after reading this...I kinda know one of the contributing factors of why your fish died.

For me, I put in my first fish after having my tank cycle with live rock. This cycle took over 1 month, possibly 1.5-2 months.

Your tank was setup for a couple of weeks (it should be setup with a couple of months WITH live rock) to help cycle the tank (initial cycle..not full salt water cycle) But from what you have written, it looks like your tank was setup for a couple of weeks (2-3 weeks no cycle here), then you added live rock and fish *at the same time*. This ony adds to the ammonia and nitrite that can build up before you even had the initial cycle of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. This will undoubfully stress out the fish. 
Adding to the stress and knowing that the fish were already sick..well, 1 + 1 = 2 and you resulted in dead fish.

I'm not sure if you written it, but where did you get the fish from? A store? 
You said you got the items from an established tank? Is this an established tank from a store or from someones house?

Either way, from now, I believe you shouldn't add any fish into your tank for the next little while. Not even corals if your going that route. See if your other surviving fish comes out to swim and eat when you feed it. If it doesn't eat, its more than likely that its stressed out.

I don't really trust API test kits. 
I've had readings of 5-10ppm for Nitrates on my tank, and when I test it again, its at 0...so its kinda strange.


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

I don't plan on adding fish for exactly 4-8 weeks. I would like though to add invertebrates and especially large shrimp. Let me know if it is ok. I would also like to add corals at some point.

All that of course in case that my tests keep showing that it is safe


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

Jaysan said:


> Okay...so after reading this...I kinda know one of the contributing factors of why your fish died.
> 
> For me, I put in my first fish after having my tank cycle with live rock. This cycle took over 1 month, possibly 1.5-2 months.
> 
> ...


Everything was in established tanks in people's houses before I put them in mine. Everything went it at the same time. The tank is cycled as the tests so but illnesses don't care about that. I am sure ick did it although I didn't know it being so fast and harsh.


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

Adding anything from anywhere else always opens risk through the introduction of pollutants/disease/pest.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

I did re-read what you had to say about your tank and I would highly suggest taking the time to read other threads about builds and what a successful tank takes.

We aren't trying to be harsh with you, rather answer your questions that you already answered. Unfortunately if they aren't the answers you are looking for then you might not like it.

Again...

*You added the fish to early*

Here is what you do now:

*DON'T ADD ANYTHING INTO YOUR TANK FOR 2 MONTHS*

Anything!!

Your tank is sick and anything you add will die off due to the sickness. Adding shrimp, that are already hard to take care of, would definitely kill them for sure.

If you feel that you are still going to add something to your tank I highly suggest something that is hardy and easy to catch.

Don't get mad at what myself and others have wrote. You are literally the 12th person in the last 3 months to write a post to say "I don't know what happened"

Another idea would be to totally start over again with a fresh tank. Drain what you have and dump it. Clean the rock and the substrate and give it another try. Your tank is so young and new that you won't have problems doing this and this.

Good luck and keep us posted


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

So u mean that if I drain it, scrub it with water and re setu it up I will be ok? I will need to wait a couple of months to cycle again anyway.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

yeah either way you have to give your tank time to get rid of what it has inside. By not giving the parasites or sickness anything to feed off you should eventually kill it off. "Should" is the word...

So you could either nuke the tank and start over again or just wait a couple months to let the tank heal. Although if you just leave the water as it is you could benefit by adding coral instead of livestock.

I know another member did exactly this when his tank was torn apart by ick, so instead of worrying about the fish he just didn't have any fish for 2 months but instead focused on corals.

Try that!


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

So with corals I am good to go. They do not have sicknesses ever?

How about that big red shrimp I like?

How do I keep the biology proper when there is no fish to produce waste?


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

as far as I know shrimp don't get Ick but this doesn't mean they won't be carriers of it. Although someone else might want to pipe in on this one since I'm not at all an expert on diseases.

Coral tanks are fine...

The live rock and substrate will always have some level of organisms inside of it. This is why we call it "live rock." The rock itself is alive with beneficial bacteria and other creatures that we never see. The die off from these creatures ends up producing minor amounts of what the tank needs.

If you ever want to see a tank die real fast, just take the live rock out and let it sit dry for an hour then stick it back in without washing it


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

+1 what alt said.



monk21 said:


> So u mean that if I drain it, scrub it with water and re setu it up I will be ok? I will need to wait a couple of months to cycle again anyway.


Yes you will still need to wait. The parasite larvae are all in your sand and rock.

Personally I'd just leave the tank fallow and focus on coral and inverts. Shrimp will be fine. They don't get affected by the parasite. Though there could be more diseases in the tank than just the one that causes marine ich.

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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

Wth is going on? There goes the damsel too. I don't know if it is relevant but eyes were popped out and it turned white and started rotting only 4 or 5 hours after death.

I feel ****


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

What temp is your tank?


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

Jaysan said:


> What temp is your tank?


80-82. No heaters in use right now, half open half glass ( only choice for now as I have smaller lights than my tank's length.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

If it really is 82 then I would think that's too warm, but fish should be alright in that temp. Although if your thermometer is broken then that 82 could really be 85...

I know when my tank reached 82 during that extreme heat wave 2 years ago I lost my whole tank. All corals were dead and all the coralline algae went also, but the fish survived somehow.

Sorry to hear this, but again hopefully all works out and you don't get discouraged from reefing.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

I second alt. monk, sorry to hear about your losses. I did warn you weeks ago that lessons in salt water are quite expensive. marine tanks are a slightly different beast from fresh water, and requires a lot more patience. that's why most hobbyists are older adults when it comes to marine. the advice from the long time reefers here are sound and sincere. As I said earlier, this is your learning tank. Lots of good lessons. At least you didn't lose really expensive exotic fishes.


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

My aim is 78 but I have read of many people intentionally trying to keep it at 82+. No idea if it is do bad. I use two thermometers though


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Really sorry for your losses, I suspect that your tank wasn't cycled yet when you added all those fish. It can be confusing when test results read everything is A.O.K. but there HAS to be a cycle even when moving "established" live rock into a new tank.



monk21 said:


> My aim is 78 but I have read of many people intentionally trying to keep it at 82+.


I am curious where you are doing your reading.


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## monk21 (Dec 5, 2012)

fesso clown said:


> Really sorry for your losses, I suspect that your tank wasn't cycled yet when you added all those fish. It can be confusing when test results read everything is A.O.K. but there HAS to be a cycle even when moving "established" live rock into a new tank.
> 
> I am curious where you are doing your reading.


Sooooo you think that 6 fish died in a week because of a "mini cycle" that took place in a tank that its test show no ammonia or nitrite....

Yeah we don't do our reading at the same places for sure!


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

monk21 said:


> Sooooo you think that 6 fish died in a week because of a "mini cycle" that took place in a tank that its test show no ammonia or nitrite....
> 
> Yeah we don't do our reading at the same places for sure!


No, you're kinda rude so I will flat out say that YOU killed those fish by being impatient and cherry picking advice. I think your fish died because you put them in a brand new tank that I suspect wasn't cycled at all with unstable parameters. They MAY have all been diseased when you got them but could have been quarantined and nursed. The unstable environment you dropped them into most likely contributed to their demise.

Here's my daily reading list, I really try to stay away from ask.com 
http://www.reefcentral.com/
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/
http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/reefkeeping-blog
http://www.nano-reef.com/
http://www.canreef.com/modules/Active_Topics/index.php
http://reefbuilders.com/

I take it back, I am not sorry for your loss, I am sorry for those fish.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Thanks Jeff for dealing with the elephant in the room 



monk21 said:


> Sooooo you think that 6 fish died in a week because of a "mini cycle" that took place in a tank that its test show no ammonia or nitrite....


This question has already been answered. If you don't believe us, just ask your fish...

As for the question re: 82 degrees, while it may not be detrimental in most cases, is too warm, and it WILL exacerbate sicknesses in your fish.

The average temperature in most of the world's reefs is closer to 78-79F

Please be more patient with the reboot. The diseases in the tank have to die off first. Do the coral and shrimp thing and the next 6-8 weeks will blow by quickly.

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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*tank*

ditto........................


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey there!

I had a very similar thing happen to me a while ago. I lost a dottyback, flame angel, blue tang and two clownfish in a matter of 3 days. What I found out a few days later was that it was marine velvet that wiped them out. Although the fish didnt have a thick mucus coating like people generally think of, there was a very thin layer, barely recognizable. From what I have read marine velvet is a much more ruthless disease than ich. Clowns are so hardy there is no doubt they should be able to withstand ich provided they are healthy. Check this out http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=83 As for what to do now...I just waited with no fish in the tank for at least 4 weeks (most people say 8) where during that period the parasites will go through their life cycle and without having a host fish to live on, they will die off. No need to dose anything, just give it time!!

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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

jamie1985 said:


> Hey there!
> 
> I had a very similar thing happen to me a while ago. I lost a dottyback, flame angel, blue tang and two clownfish in a matter of 3 days. What I found out a few days later was that it was marine velvet that wiped them out. Although the fish didnt have a thick mucus coating like people generally think of, there was a very thin layer, barely recognizable. From what I have read marine velvet is a much more ruthless disease than ich. Clowns are so hardy there is no doubt they should be able to withstand ich provided they are healthy. Check this out http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=83 As for what to do now...I just waited with no fish in the tank for at least 4 weeks (most people say 8) where during that period the parasites will go through their life cycle and without having a host fish to live on, they will die off. No need to dose anything, just give it time!!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk 2


Thanks for this information!

I too have had sudden, unexplained clownfish deaths recently. One was a clownfish I had for almost 2 years, while the 3 others were newly bought from a fish store.

The curve ball for me is that the deaths only affected the ocellaris, as far as I can see. The damselfish and the firefish are still doing well.

I don't know what I should do now. I have nowhere else to house the 2 surviving fish, so I can't run the tank fallow. Those 2 fishes don't look like they're in any stress, but if there are parasites involved, they might be carriers.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Damsels are the cockroaches of the sea and are hard to kill


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## jamie1985 (Oct 11, 2012)

And catch...I say get the firefish out somewhere if you can but no biggie on the damsel lol 

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