# Safest way to switch out tanks ?



## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I want to replace two tanks, with newer, nicer looking ones. The replacements are slightly larger than the old ones, about 6 gallons or so. I just don't have space to run the new ones anywhere to let them build up any biofilm first. I'd thought of filling them on the balcony, but it's going to be freezing at nights before they'd be done. And it's a lot of extra work.. I do have to be careful, between the bad back and torn shoulder tendon.

I'm concerned about the biofilm because I have species that are known not to do as well in new tanks. Panda garra, 2 or 3 different types of Kuhli loach, CPDs, Otos, my Fan & Ghost shrimps. Most of the remaining species are not so sensitive, being a few other species of Danio, some Cories & Endlers.

If it was some sort of emergency, biofilm, clearly, would not be my big worry. But I believe it's pretty important, especially for more sensitive species. The new tanks wouldn't have any on the walls, only the decor and plants. The Panda garras spend a ton of their time skimming the glass, I believe feeding on biofilm. Whatever film might be on the substrate will certainly be buried. 

Do you think the fish are likely to do ok in this type of situation, without any biofilm on the tank walls for some time to come ?

For now, the only way I can see to make the switch is as if I was doing a tank teardown. Remove livestock to buckets with their water, as many plants as practical, rocks & wood. Run an air stone on one, the filter on the other bucket, as I think I'd need at least two to avoid too much crowding - the garras especially are very active and won't care to be crowded. Another tub for the remaining plants & decor. 

Drain the tank, retaining as much old water as is practical. Move the old tank out, the new one in, switch the substrate to the new one, giving it a bit of a rinse first in tank water to wash out some of the crud that is going to be in it. Replace rocks,wood and some plants, refill part way with half tank, half new water. Let water settle and then replace the stock, using the water they are in to finish topping up the tank.

I've done breakdowns before, but not when there was this much stock to consider. It was after a severe outbreak, and there were, by then, only a few fish to consider. It was also back in the days when nobody knew about the cycle or biofilm or anything else we know about now. The tanks do need to be switched out before I can install the aquaponic troughs I am going to be using.

Is this going to be ok for the livestock ? I had thought about drip acclimating them to the new tank conditions but it would take such a long time to do, I'm not at all sure I'd be able to manage it all in one day. Might it not be better to catch them using deli containers with some of their water and transfer them that way, rather than netting them ? Especially the Cories.. they catch their spines so easily in netting. For that matter, I'd try to catch them that way the first time too, use a net to herd as many as possible into a deli container. Danios are easy to catch this way.. the others, less so .

If I have missed anything, or you have any suggestions for better ways, or to make up for missing biofilm, I'd sure like to hear about it. I'd thought about putting several clean ceramic tiles in the old tanks to build up some film.. not sure how long I'd have to leave them for it to make enough difference.


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

I think you are reading to much into the bio-film into the transfer of tanks. I have move many fish to bigger tanks by just putting the fish in buckets filled with old tank water also making sure the filter media or filters are not exposed to the air and allowed to dry out. Once old tank is emptied and removed, set up new tank with old substrate old filter, plants and décor now add fish. You would have more trouble netting and releasing pleco's than cories as they get their caught in the nets much easier. When I have a pleco stuck in a net I submerge the net in the tank and turn over when the pleco wants to free its self it will usually about ten to fifteen seconds. As for fish staying in the buckets over night don't worry they will be okay, when I take fish to shows the fish are caught around 8 pm and are not back in their tanks until about 5 or 6 pm. the next evening no filters or heaters with no problems. Good luck with your move.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

That is encouraging to hear. I've often wondered how well fish manage going to shows.. not something I've tried as yet.

In the end there isn't much I could have done about biofilm anyway, but it's good to hear from someone else that it isn't as critical as I feared it might be.


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## snaggle (Feb 19, 2010)

Are you replacing the substrate?

How big are your tanks/fish?

If your tanks are small, under 50 gallons, I would use a rubbermaid or two as a temporary tank while you set up the new tank. Re-use as much water as you can save, also keep the filter running on the rubbermaids, you will keep your media alive no problem.

If you move everything over you will not have any new tank syndrome, it will just be like you did a water change.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I'd be keeping the substrate. Only thing changing is the tank itself. The old ones are 29G and about 26G, new ones are 29G and about 33 G. Small fish.. the biggest things I have are the Panda garras and maybe a few of the kuhli loaches which are nearly full grown. The fan shrimp are young, so not large, rest of the fish are small to nano species.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Unfortunately, a mini-cycle is inevitable with a move. You could try to mitigate it by adding lots of floating plants to the tank. Frogbit and duckweed are best suited to this.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

One thing that won't be lacking is plants. Loads of them. Should help, and I actually don't see why a mini cycle would be inevitable if I'm using the same filter on the same fish load in a tank that's virtually the same size. Lack of biofilm has nothing to do with cycling per se, though it's desirable to have for a number of reasons.

Why do you think a mini cycle is inevitable ?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Fishfur said:


> One thing that won't be lacking is plants. Loads of them. Should help, and I actually don't see why a mini cycle would be inevitable if I'm using the same filter on the same fish load in a tank that's virtually the same size. Lack of biofilm has nothing to do with cycling per se, though it's desirable to have for a number of reasons.
> 
> Why do you think a mini cycle is inevitable ?


Mainly because you are disrupting the substrate of the tank. Despite hype about filter media, I would say that the vast majority of nitrifying bacteria is in the substrate. Moving the substrate will inevitably cause a major bacteria die-off, which in turn leads to a mini-cycle.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Perhaps we will not agree on this. The nitrifying bacteria, though I don't doubt that some live in the substrate, by far, the majority, live in the filter.

But there are other bacteria that do live in substrate and biofilm in huge numbers, and if they all died off, yeah, I can see that causing a spike perhaps. You might find this article interesting.. if I can find the url

Ah, here is is. http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html

I plan to rinse the substrate, to remove the crud I know is there, but I wasn't going to use tap water to do it. So I guess I'll find out when I do it.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I would move all the water and substrate over and the filter and top up the tanks with new water.

I recommend not doing the switch right after doing filter maintenance, wait a week to make sure the filter has the max bacteria and then still don't clean it for at least a week after the switch.

I have done similar changes of tanks but on a larger scale. You should expect a mini cycle, I have lost a couple fish from these moves.

I have API stress zyme on hand, seachem's product I think it called stability? Its a bacteria booster and I recommend using one of these in the new tanks to help minimize any mini cycle.

cleaning the substrate will increase the mini cycle but this is also a good time to clean it if you really need to since it's all being taken out of the first tank.

Just be sure to test your ammonia and nitrites every day or so for the first few days just to be safe.

And if you get a dangerous spike, ask someone for some extra BB after a wc.

Basically all this advice you already know, but its nice to have a reminder so you can plan ahead and not miss something. It really pisses me off when I miss something that I should have thought of and a fish dies.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Too true. I plan to do one, one week, the next, another week, and I have at least one other filter running, so I'll have a source for more BB if I need them, and do get a mini cycle. I'm hoping I don't get one, of course but better safe than sorry is my usual MO.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

It is recommended to use an UV sterilizer every time you disturb the substrate like in a deep vacuum cleaning to avoid bacterial bloom.
What substrate are you moving? Gravel?
And nitrifying bacteria lives on every surface: filter or substrate. A canister filter filled with bio balls holds more bacteria than the substrate but my Tetra HOB filter will have less than the gravel in the tank.


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## max88 (Aug 6, 2009)

Fishfur said:


> I'd be keeping the substrate. Only thing changing is the tank itself. The old ones are 29G and about 26G, new ones are 29G and about 33 G. Small fish.. the biggest things I have are the Panda garras and maybe a few of the kuhli loaches which are nearly full grown. The fan shrimp are young, so not large, rest of the fish are small to nano species.


Can the old 29G hold some or all of the live stock from the old 26G while you replace 26G? If so, you new tank will have a lighter bio load to begin with.


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## darkangel66n (May 15, 2013)

I have just done this twice with no issues. My 100 gallon sprung a leak and the front panel started to separate. I moved both filters and the water to a 55 and all of the fish and plants, no substrate. I then moved half the water and half of the fish and plants to a new 55 with new gravel. The remaining fish and water were put in a tub. The tank was emptied and moved to its new spot, the old dry gravel was added back. The water was pumped into the tank, the rest of the plants and fish were added and the tank was let go. The two filters that were on the 100 went to the temporary 55. One now sits on each of the new 55's. I lost zero fish. I do not check anything with test kits, just use my eyes nose and the experience from the last 30 years to keep things going. It has been ten days now and everything is great. Plants are growing, fish are happy active and spawning again. Keep the filter going, use half of the old water and I think you would be perfectly fine. I believe the filter is home to the vast majority of filtering bacteria.


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## Mykuhl (Apr 8, 2013)

I think people are too paranoid, the BB in an established tank adjusts to an increased bioload faster than most people realize. I have done a change like this a few times with no mini-cycle. Each time into a new larger tank with everything new except the filter,fish and plants. Another time I almost doubled the bioload in an established tank with no mini-cycle.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

It can often go just fine with zero problems, but it can also go bad and you just need to be aware so you can keep an eye on things


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

All good to hear. Sadly, I haven't anywhere I could put the old 29 with water in it. Space is critically short in this place, as I'm in the middle of moving furniture in and out as well. Stuff of mine I no longer want, replacing with some things of my Mom's.. it's a mess just now.

Don't have a UV sterilizer and can't afford one. I think they're nice items to have in come circircumstances but I also think most issues can be resolved without resorting to such expense.

Mykuhl & Darkangel, it's nice to hear you've had success with this kind of thing.. gives me some confidence. There won't be any higher load to begin with, though I may find I have room for a few new fish once all is complete and running well. Going to be a big, tiring job for me to do, for sure.

I am also one of those who firmly believes the majority of the BB live in the filters. I see arguments on this topic all the time, but based on every article I have been able to find that appears to be both credible and cites studies to back up what they say, BB are primarily found in filter media. 

Other bacteria abound also, in the substrate and biofilm, but they are different types entirely, and while they serve their own purposes, don't serve as ammonia converters.
Though they can be sources of ammonia especially if you end with cloudy water due to bacterial bloom, they sure don't reduce ammonia levels.

So I think I have a good plan in place to begin this project, and hopefully I get it all done without any issues other than my being dog tired by the time it's done.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Very, very true, I will have my test kits at the ready and be careful.. it's only sensible.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Fishfur said:


> Other bacteria abound also, in the substrate and biofilm, but they are different types entirely, and while they serve their own purposes, don't serve as ammonia converters.
> Though they can be sources of ammonia especially if you end with cloudy water due to bacterial bloom, they sure don't reduce ammonia levels.


I can think of a way to test this, if anyone with 2 spare tanks is interested:

1- Put substrate and a filter in one tank and cycle it with household ammonia. Do not add any livestock or food, as it will skew the results.

2- Once the first tank is cycled, move the filter into a second, new, bare-bottom tank. Add a powerhead (but no filter media) to the first tank.

3- Add ammonia to the tanks until one of them shows a nitrite spike.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Why even take the time to cycle from scratch with ammonia? Put substrate in one tank that's from a well cycled tank. I always have spare media that's cycled, so I'd just some of that in a filter, and put the filter onto a second tank with bare bottom. Then feed both tanks ammonia, and I doubt it would be more than a day or three before you'd see results.
See no reason why that wouldn't demonstrate the same thing.. unless I've missed something ?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Fishfur said:


> Why even take the time to cycle from scratch with ammonia? Put substrate in one tank that's from a well cycled tank. I always have spare media that's cycled, so I'd just some of that in a filter, and put the filter onto a second tank with bare bottom. Then feed both tanks ammonia, and I doubt it would be more than a day or three before you'd see results.
> See no reason why that wouldn't demonstrate the same thing.. unless I've missed something ?


You don't want to move the substrate as that disrupts the bio filter.


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