# Liable?



## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

Recently, I sold a large golden arowana for a few thousand dollars. It was swimming fine and eating fine at my place. When the new owner brought it and place it in his tank, the fish went belly up and died the next day.

Am I liable for the death of the fish, and have to refund the money like the buyer suggested?

 

advice needed, thanks!


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## arktixan (Mar 30, 2010)

Did it die immediately?
or a few days into him/her having it?

I believe if it died immediately running in his/her tank, I believe you are still liable, but then again... it could also depend on his/her tank specs and all that other fun jazz... was the temp too high... ph not right etc etc...If it comes down to the owners side.. I would believe you are not liable, however you could compensate and give him/her x amount back for their loss... but that would be entirely up to you.


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

arktixan said:


> Did it die immediately?
> or a few days into him/her having it?
> 
> I believe if it died immediately running in his/her tank, I believe you are still liable, but then again... it could also depend on his/her tank specs and all that other fun jazz... was the temp too high... ph not right etc etc...If it comes down to the owners side.. I would believe you are not liable, however you could compensate and give him/her x amount back for their loss... but that would be entirely up to you.


Around 16 hours (brought it in the afternoon and died in the morning)


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## trailblazer295 (Mar 7, 2010)

It's hard to say because we aren't talking a couple bucks but that's a risk you run when buying livestock or anything privately, there are no gaurentees. I would say find out more info before handing any green over. Water parameters, how it was transported, how long it was in transport, how it was introduced to new tank etc.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

You're not liable. Period. 
Enjoy your money.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

I'd have to agree. If it was fine in your tank and therefore healthy, once bought and out of your tank anything could have been done to it. Thought things like that should have been made clear at the time of the transaction...especially for that kind of coin.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Riceburner said:


> I'd have to agree. If it was fine in your tank and therefore healthy, once bought and out of your tank anything could have been done to it. Thought things like that should have been made clear at the time of the transaction...especially for that kind of coin.


I agree,

The transaction conditions should have been clear before you sold and they bought the fish.

I live by the "tail light warranty" once you see the tail lights of the car the warranty is over buying or selling.

If you are in the business of selling fish then maybe this might be different but for a private sale one off nope.

That is why I never sell fish


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

TBemba said:


> I agree,
> 
> The transaction conditions should have been clear before you sold and they bought the fish.
> 
> ...


Well selling fish isn't bad as long as conditions are clear and not a rush sale. If the seller held the fish for sale in holding till he knew that the seller had the proper tank conditions matched and even reviewed how the conditioning process would have been done then after all condtions of presale are met then the seller would release the fish for sale with perhaps I don't know a uh.. 24hr return policy or DOA 50% or something.

Yah I agree the seller needs to mention more about the presale conditions and checks that went in place if any.


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## UnderTheSea (Jun 2, 2008)

You are not liable, but you may want to ensure the terms of the sale are clear and up front. There are too many reasons why live stock may perish within hours or even days in a new setup.

We have had several individuals come to pickup corals and inverts for their tank and we have made it a habit of inquiring about their system. Without our questions many would have gone home to put SW live stock in a FW tank. We did have one guy go say he had a salt water system, he described it and nothing really out of the ordinary, new tank a couple of months old, had the proper lighting etc. When he returned to say we owed the money for his dead livestock back, we found out he was using the salt for the driveway in his tank and when he ran out of that decided to use table salt. No refund was given, just a little education.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

de-icing salt???? wow I'm always amazed at the lack of knowledge of ppl.... 


p.s. ...Can I use kosher sea salt?


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

UnderTheSea said:


> You are not liable, but you may want to ensure the terms of the sale are clear and up front. There are too many reasons why live stock may perish within hours or even days in a new setup.
> 
> We have had several individuals come to pickup corals and inverts for their tank and we have made it a habit of inquiring about their system. Without our questions many would have gone home to put SW live stock in a FW tank. We did have one guy go say he had a salt water system, he described it and nothing really out of the ordinary, new tank a couple of months old, had the proper lighting etc. When he returned to say we owed the money for his dead livestock back, we found out he was using the salt for the driveway in his tank and when he ran out of that decided to use table salt. No refund was given, just a little education.


I would have laughed him out of the store. If you're that stupid I don't educate, I'd suggest a pet rock and ban that guy from the store.

Basically, any time you sell something, and no express warranty is given, as soon as it's sold and out the door your liability ends. Even if it's a car. There's nothing the other guy can do-- especially if you include "As is". As is can mean anything.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

laugh him out of the store? Well that wouldn't fix a thing would it? 

Yea BF, even in some of the fish shops big dollar fish have no warranty. We would make sure to write that on the receipt as well. 

Sorry that has happened. :/


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Ciddian said:


> laugh him out of the store? Well that wouldn't fix a thing would it?


I'm allergic to stupid s***, if I may quote the great Kat Williams. At that point, this person has established for me that

a) He's too stupid to have an aquarium
b) He may be too stupid to tie his own shoes
c) He's generally ignorant.

People like this, to me, don't deserve a single iota of my existance. If you're _that_ ignorant and stupid, get a pet rock, and get the frig away from me. I truly would throw that person out of my store, were I in charge. I'd also ban him. First I'm explaining why driveway salt and aquarium salt aren't the same, next thing I'll be explaining why putting a bunch of rocks on one end of the tank won't level the water line out, or that seahorses are harder to take care of, and require a different set of expertise than real horses, or that you can't feed your clownfish chocolate (these are all true stories). All this stuff should be common sense to anybody with more than two brain cells to rub together IMO. I'd probably have a sign with similar examples and a disclaimer that if you're that stupid, you've come to the wrong place.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Then he'd just go somewhere else and give someone else business who doesn't mind taking the time to work with someone who made a mistake.

You'd be outta customers quite quickly....However, if thats the only way you can learn something like that, then well.. Good luck to you.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

It's a _REALLY_ tough call on expensive livestock and I feel the pain on both sides.

First thing I would do is get YOUR water tested so that you can compare with the purchasers. Death in that time frame, I would first look at the difference in TDS, as big changes (from high to low) with out drip acclimatisation will do most FW fish in from osmotic shock.

As for details prior to death:
Behavior; increased and labored breath rate
Physical appearance; excessive slime production, fins seem like they are dissolving away in pieces

HTH, hoping that both parties can find a resolution and open to possibilities and accountability.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Ciddian said:


> Then he'd just go somewhere else and give someone else business who doesn't mind taking the time to work with someone who made a mistake.
> 
> You'd be outta customers quite quickly....However, if thats the only way you can learn something like that, then well.. Good luck to you.


This is why I don't run a store .

I wouldn't say using driveway salt in an aquarium is making a mistake, I'd say it was more along the lines of being way too stupid to have tropical pets. JM2C.
I'm very happy to give someone else that particular headache. It isn't humanly possible to make a mistake like that unless you have some serious screws loose.


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## WiyRay (Jan 11, 2009)

No, since no agreements/conditions were made prior to purchase, you're not liable. 

Only 2 things. 
1) If you feel bad due to some sense of empathy for the buyer. 
2) You're trying to build a good rep. with the client and possibly future reps what with the feedback system and all. 

But yea, that's if you're overly nice. And I know you're nice, so be firm. 

We already have an etiquette thread, we should consider writing up a printable agreement form with established conditions that most of us agree on. Maybe that'll save us some grief. Seems like we have this problem pop up in a thread every couple of months.


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