# Frogbit



## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Just wondering if frogbit is easy to grow in highlight tank with co2 injection?


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Easy to grow? Yes. Easy to manage? No.
It grows extremely quick and roots will likely tangle itself to everything, in high light, short rooted floating plants are much more ideal.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Is it the co2 that makes them grow better? I have another tank with no co2 and high light and they seem to be going yellow getting scraggly and dying off?


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Floating plants are not limited by co2 as they get their co2 above the water column. Light is the main driving force, but if your water is depleted and has no nutrients, they'll struggle as well.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

*Nutrition*

The frogbit is in a 40 gallon miracles tank with 2 T5 high output lights. How do I add more nutrients to the tank on top of the CO2 injection that the tank gets now? I add a capful of flourish as directed to the tank once weekly.


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## Patrick Ang (Jun 20, 2016)

If you want to add nutrients, flourish is basically a micro mix with very little macro nutrients. The marketing is wrong saying it's comprehensive, but in order to have a full fertilization regime to allow the plants to keep up with the co2, you would need a macro mix. I recommend Lin's (default) nutrition+ if you have a high tech tank and you need those macros. Honestly, floating plants are often more utilitarian rather than for aesthetics , and they remove a lot of nutrients very quickly and multiply at the same rate. If you submerged plants are doing fine, I wouldn't change anything, but if you want frogbit to grow faster? Maybe try some duckweed


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## default (May 28, 2011)

+1 that's exactly how floaters should be utilized in high tech tanks, they can be beautiful and utilized for aesthetics, but their main benefit is to absorb any excess nutrients - it's like a mini water-change every time you thin them out .
Adding fertilizer would be one way to introduce more nutrients into your water column. If you have co2 with a decent quantity of plants in your tank, you can quickly deplete the macros (N, P, K).
Thanks Patrick for the kind recommendation.


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## Teemote (Aug 13, 2016)

yeah +1 on Default's mix.

My amazon sword feels like it's on steroid after using his mix and API tabs.

The frogbits I have are also jacked up, some of the leafs are 2-3 cms. 

In my 20 gallon (which I have taken down) I had to remove Frogbit pretty much every 3 days or else no light would get through - that's how fast they're growing

They do look pretty nice when they're big and green.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

*Plant info...bit at a time...*

Okay I am still new to this but currently my 40 gallon miracles tank has many plants, has CO2 injection (one bubble per 1.5 seconds), and my CO2 is being diffused with a bubble ladder into the tank. I have flourite substrate in the tank and for filtration I have a large sponge filter and one corner filter. I am running 2 T5 54 watt (I think) light fixtures on the tank and the lights are on for 10 hours per day. 
Here is my question...what else do I need to help with good plant growth? Keeping in mind I am new to some of this...


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## Patrick Ang (Jun 20, 2016)

shrimpie101 said:


> Okay I am still new to this but currently my 40 gallon miracles tank has many plants, has CO2 injection (one bubble per 1.5 seconds), and my CO2 is being diffused with a bubble ladder into the tank. I have flourite substrate in the tank and for filtration I have a large sponge filter and one corner filter. I am running 2 T5 54 watt (I think) light fixtures on the tank and the lights are on for 10 hours per day.
> 
> Here is my question...what else do I need to help with good plant growth? Keeping in mind I am new to some of this...


Get an organic substrate like Ada or Netlea or tropica. I find they grow plants a lot better than inert substrates like fluorite. Your lighting seems fine, play with co2 levels and nutrients. I like to push these levels to the furthest they can be to grow plants as fast as possible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patrick Ang (Jun 20, 2016)

Patrick Ang said:


> Get an organic substrate like Ada or Netlea or tropica. I find they grow plants a lot better than inert substrates like fluorite. Your lighting seems fine, play with co2 levels and nutrients. I like to push these levels to the furthest they can be to grow plants as fast as possible.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also stop running air driven filters, you are wasting ur co2 by doing this. Get a canister filter for a tank your sizes. Your plants will appreciate the co2. Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Teemote said:


> yeah +1 on Default's mix.
> 
> My amazon sword feels like it's on steroid after using his mix and API tabs.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the kind recommendation as well!


shrimpie101 said:


> Okay I am still new to this but currently my 40 gallon miracles tank has many plants, has CO2 injection (one bubble per 1.5 seconds), and my CO2 is being diffused with a bubble ladder into the tank. I have flourite substrate in the tank and for filtration I have a large sponge filter and one corner filter. I am running 2 T5 54 watt (I think) light fixtures on the tank and the lights are on for 10 hours per day.
> Here is my question...what else do I need to help with good plant growth? Keeping in mind I am new to some of this...


Your setup is not quite optimized for plant growth, here are some personal opinions:
- Co2 injection, is this through a DIY set up? I'm going to assume from the use of a bubble ladder that it is DIY - so, you have a ton of light for a unsteady and less predictable form of co2 injection - coupled with a less efficient way of dilution and two air driven filters. 
Your plants probably aren't getting much co2, so I would recommend changing the dilution method if you have to keep using a DIY system - maybe using a "DIY capable diffuser", at least this way you should be able to get physical bubbles trapped without it gassing out instantly, or use a reactor. Second, changing your filtration wouldn't help a whole lot at this point, but having a canister or a less "splashy" HOB would definitely minimize degassing.

- With inert substrate like Fluorite, think of it like wine, it'll get better with time, but initially your tank depends on you dosing fertilizers. You'll have to continue dosing in the future, but the initial stages are very dependant on you. So I recommend getting some liquid fertilizers as soon as you can if you're not already dosing, and ensure it's a good mix for your setup.

- Lighting, you have a lot of light for your tank, with less efficient co2 and minimal nutrients, not a good combo to have. Light drives photosynthesis, but if your plants are stressed by lack of co2 and/or nutrients, algae will utilize the light and likely win the initial battle, which will lead to a long-term battle which usually does not end well for plants. I would recommend turning down the photoperiod down to 6.5-7 hrs until you have other parameters sorted out.

I would also recommend getting these parameters figured out asap if you already have plants in the tank. The longer you wait, the more likely you'll run into a problem - and the longer it takes, the more difficult the problem.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

I have netlea under my seachem fluorite substrate approx 1.5 inches across the bottom. The seachem substrate is another approx 3 inches. My co2 is not diy it is by injection, you know tanks regulator the whole 9 yards. I use the bubble ladder as I was told it gives co2 bubbles a chance to enter water as they climb the ladder. I do have some pearling on my plant leaves but very minimal.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Also although I have corner filter and sponge filter I am able to adjust pressure of there force and although they do bubble they cause very minimal rippling effect on the water


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## default (May 28, 2011)

shrimpie101 said:


> I have netlea under my seachem fluorite substrate approx 1.5 inches across the bottom. The seachem substrate is another approx 3 inches. My co2 is not diy it is by injection, you know tanks regulator the whole 9 yards. I use the bubble ladder as I was told it gives co2 bubbles a chance to enter water as they climb the ladder. I do have some pearling on my plant leaves but very minimal.





shrimpie101 said:


> Also although I have corner filter and sponge filter I am able to adjust pressure of there force and although they do bubble they cause very minimal rippling effect on the water


Someone actually recommended using a ladder? It's quite "prehistoric", and it's possibly one of the least efficient methods of injecting co2 - especially pressurized co2 - because you're able to utilize the high pressure for atomizers, diffusers, inline misters, and reactors.
Couple the ladder with any surface agitation and you'll have even less co2.

You should also be careful with the mix of aquasoil and Fluorite, keep an eye on the granules and ensure there are no compaction, Fluorite is fairly "heavy" and it can compact the aquasoil and turn it anaerobic - it would be a fairly extremely case, but just keep that in mind to ensure it doesn't happen.

You still haven't mentioned any fertilization regime, so I'm assuming you're not adding anything atm. The first step would definitely be to get some nutrients into the water column.

Good luck.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Ya the person at the aquarium store suggested the ladder. I also have a plastic round diffuser with a disk that can be replaced as well but when I original hooked it up it did not work and I had the ladder they suggested so I went to that when the small round diffuser did not produce any bubbles. No I don't know what to use for additional ferts  I also learned last night that when I count bubbles coming from my bubble counter it is 1 bubble every 2.7 seconds. I think that is not enough. I do have Amano shrimp in the tank, sae's and some small tetras as well so I want to be careful I don't kill anyone


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

It's a small 40 gallon tank and due to its placement built into a wall I don't have allot of room this is why it runs off large sponge filter and corner filter. So I think I am limited to how to diffuse co2 into tank?????


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## default (May 28, 2011)

shrimpie101 said:


> Ya the person at the aquarium store suggested the ladder. I also have a plastic round diffuser with a disk that can be replaced as well but when I original hooked it up it did not work and I had the ladder they suggested so I went to that when the small round diffuser did not produce any bubbles. No I don't know what to use for additional ferts  I also learned last night that when I count bubbles coming from my bubble counter it is 1 bubble every 2.7 seconds. I think that is not enough. I do have Amano shrimp in the tank, sae's and some small tetras as well so I want to be careful I don't kill anyone





shrimpie101 said:


> It's a small 40 gallon tank and due to its placement built into a wall I don't have allot of room this is why it runs off large sponge filter and corner filter. So I think I am limited to how to diffuse co2 into tank?????


The disc diffuser doesn't work? What sort of regulator is this? Is it a fixed pressure? Perhaps take some pictures of it.
You won't kill anything by having optimal co2 or nutrients. And that bubble count is just too low, you'll need more than that.

Using a canister would only require 1-2" of space from tank to wall, you could always have the filter on the sides as well - or even an internal filter would work (I use them all the time). Your'e really not limited to how you inject co2, if you have a pressurized system you can inject it efficiently with the same amount of space as an airstone - I can't imagine your ladder is small. If possible I am interested in seeing how your setup looks right now.
Also, if a LFS recommended you a co2 ladder for your 40g tank, it's probably best to avoid that shop - the fact that they still carry ladders and suggesting you buy them is never a good sign. Aside from an airstone or a line straight into your tank, I really can't think of a less efficient injection method.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm not sure what u mean? Let me try to understand...I have a dual stage regulator with solenoid and bubble counter attached to co2 tank, from there currently I have co2 line running up and into my tank and currently attached to that ladder.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

What is an eternal filter? Do u mean canister filter like an ehiem?


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

I tried the disk diffuser the one time and no bubbles came out of it


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm think maybe I will try the disk diffuser instead of the ladder and increase my bubble count  lol I am not sure I know how to post pictures on here


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## default (May 28, 2011)

External filters: like the Eheims and other canister filters.
Internal filters: the filters that actually go into the tank itself, like a sponge filter, but is impeller driven instead of air.

You can use either one.

Regarding the regulator, you have two gauges correct? If so, one should say high pressure and the other low pressure, what does the low pressure read? If it's not labelled, like the name suggest, the readings would have smaller numbers (~0-100psi). Increasing your bubble count could be one solution, but if your regulator is not producing 20+ psi, the diffuser may not work properly.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

My one gauge is at 20 psi, I have increased my bubble counter now to 1 bubbles every 1.7 seconds with the ladder and I will try my diffuser again. How long should it take for a must of fine bubbles to come from the diffuser? Will the diffuser slow my bubble count down?


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Okay my bubble counter is now 1.54 seconds per bubble, back to bubble ladder. Going to maybe order different diffuser. Had the disk diffuser hooked up for a bit and nothing came out of diffuser  thinking my diffuser is garbage


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## Patrick Ang (Jun 20, 2016)

For diffusers, i would recommend getting a stainless steel one or acrylic one. But honestly I prefer inline co2 atomizers much better as they have much higher dissolution rates, than most in tank diffusers. I use a bazooka atomizer from angelfins.ca for my intank atomizer, and an up aqua inline atomizer for the inline stuff, and it works fine, but i would increase your psi if it still doesn't work.


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

I will check out angelfins and see what they got  my psi is at 20 now and even with that my fish store cheap diffuser with disk did nothing after its second attempt grrr


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

I've been watching this thread and, in isolation, I generally agree with the advice and tips that others have provided.

However, I think you (the OP) might want to consider a different overall approach. In none of your posts do you mention that you test for anything. For example, how do you know if you have enough CO2 or not? How will you know if one diffuser works better than another? Does increasing the bubbles per second actually have any impact in your set up?

While almost none of the values we get from tests can be taken as gospel, the values over time can be directional allowing you to determine what kind of impact a change is having.

Some people have an intuitive sense of these things and don't need to test, but I'm not one of them


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Well this is why I seek opinions and advise. I have a drop checker, and I check my ph as well so far. I am new to a proper planted tank and although I don't seek to have as beautiful a tank as many have I try to strive for it to look nice. Over the last five years I have lost many plants and I am trying to have and keep a garden under water this time


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

Here is to hoping anyhow


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

shrimpie101 said:


> Well this is why I seek opinions and advise. I have a drop checker, and I check my ph as well so far.


Ah good. I was worried you were ignoring this side of things. Is your drop checker colour green? Any hint of yellow or blue? Have you tried checking the pH of your tank and comparing it to the tap water?

Anyway, if you've got pH, drop checker, and other data (perhaps your nitrate values) you can share, that might help folks guide you to the right solution.


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## default (May 28, 2011)

Increasing bubbles per second would not be the same as increasing your pressure, with that said, those diffusers should work find with 20 psi, but is there anyway you can increase that amount? Does your regulator allow you to change the working pressure or is it fixed? (Giant knob found on the face of the regulator would change the pressure, fixed units have nothing - most fixed units have a working pressure of 30+ psi)


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## shrimpie101 (Mar 27, 2017)

*Bubbles*

I can increase the pressure, as well as the CO2 bubbles per second. I do have pearling now on my plants, and my drop checker is no longer blue - lol - but it is not green either - kindda in between.


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