# Help me with Plumbing please.



## 4pokguy (Apr 27, 2011)

I have a couple of small all-in-one reef systems, but this is going to be my first set up with a sump. 
I just wanted the opinions of the GTA Aquaria community since there is such a vast pool of knowledge here.

Most of the major equipment has been purchased and consists of:
- 20g shallow display (24"L x 16"W x 12"H)
- 40g Breeder tank that will be turned into a sump (36"x18"x16")
- CAD Lights PLS-50 Skimmer
- Danner MAG Drive 5 pump for return
- Glass-Holes.com Super Nano con Dientes Overflow box consisting of a 1" Drain with two (1/2") Returns

My main concern is the plumbing. I would like to know if there's anything missing or if anything needs to be moved, removed, or replaced.
Do I need any more unions somewhere? 
Can someone advise me on the height of the baffles in the sump too? 
Also, the overflow says it's recommended for up to 200gph. I will be putting valves in both returns so I can adjust the output. 
With the MAG 5 pushing about 310gph up 4-feet, will this be a problem?

Thanks in advance!!

Here's the diagram that I drew in MS Paint that shows my sump design and plumbing.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

have a look on this one below. check valve is waste of money.IMO.

your system should be designed in the way, that in case of pump stoppage, the sump should accept all water from the display.
what you show as looks like close loop. Are your returns coming from the bottom of the display?

very good idea to have a loop on return. you can even run 1000GPH pump and excessive water will go back to the sump.
I would not recommend to run this loop to the refussium. In case you will have sand there (no needed IMO), flow from the loop will blow it

make wall high enough between fresh water and salt water. SW could go over the top in case of pump stoppage, when wall will be low

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

but you better do not waste money on this 20G and go at least 40G  or go with 20G long

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## 4pokguy (Apr 27, 2011)

sig said:


> have a look on this one below. check valve is waste of money.IMO.
> 
> your system should be designed in the way, that in case of pump stoppage, the sump should accept all water from the display.
> what you show as looks like close loop. Are your returns coming from the bottom of the display?
> ...


I need the check valve because the returns will be fitted directly through the back of the display, approximately 2 inches below the water-line. It's a rimless tank and I wanted to keep it clean looking; The returns don't go over the top of the tank like in the link above so drilling a siphon break hole won't help. 
I decided to have the return pump also loop into the fuge so that I could make the wall between the fuge and return chambers higher. That way, I would have more water volume for the fuge. And the ball valve will control the flow going into the fuge so I don't have to worry about the deep sand bed getting blown around.
And yes, I know as long as the baffles are short enough so that in case the water from the display does drain into the sump (because of a faulty check valve), it won't overflow from the sump.

I would use the 40B as a display and the 20g as a sump, but I found the 40B on the curbside and it has some very ugly chips on all 4 corner edges. (Not a single scratch on the glass though, and it holds water just fine). It would also be more expensive to light and stock a 40g than a 20. Plus I'm thinking of moving and it would be easier to tear down a 20g and upgrade to something larger if I do decide to move.

And why would I buy a 20Long when I already have a 20g "Breeder"? They both hold the same volume.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I am sorry for commenting and offending you :cool

why you ask for advices, despite making the decision already and go to argue with any comment

you do not need to follow these advices, but do not make people feel like a shit, because they wasted their time trying to help

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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Before I suggest something, may I ask if you have already cut the baffles?

Also is there a reason why you would only want 6" for your skimmer? Do you plan to use this sump for future upgrades? I would need these answers before I make a suggestion because I already see 2 problems you will face in the future.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

ditch the 20g and get a bigger, better tank. I have a 33g you can have for free. Drill it anywhere you want and have fun!! 

The tank you have seems like too many problems for a reef tank. Just my opinion though


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## 4pokguy (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm very sorry Sig, It seems that I misunderstood your first post. I see what you mean now after you edited it. I'm sorry that I offended you in my reply. I didn't mean to. I mentioned that I already have the major components in the system, so I'm going to use what I already have and not spend any extra money on big items like a new display tank. I was considering to buy that rimless tank you got from Miracles last week because it was shallow and wide. Exactly what I was looking for. I controlled myself and decided not to spend more cash than I needed to. Sorry I couldn't make you $150 richer. 

WiseGuy, I haven't cut the glass for the baffles yet. The reason I'm only leaving 6" of space in the skimmer chamber is because I'm using a CAD Lights PLS-50 Skimmer. It only requires 3.25"x3x5" of space. But now that you mention it, I would make it a bit larger and do 7 or 8" so I can accommodate a PLS-100 if I decide to upgrade to a custom 40 or 50 gallon in the future. But I'll see if I can manage this system first. 
BTW, what's the other foreseeable problem?

Alt, what are the dimensions of that 33g? I'm interested in something that's about 12-14" tall and 16-18" wide.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

apology accepted. 
by having many tanks in the past, I tried to say that buying from the beginning right equipment will be cheaper in the long run.
looks like you are not just trying SW and it means you will not quit tomorrow, that's why you can think for the future setup, when buying stuff today
In general 20G considered Nano tank and you can run it perfectly without the skimmer and sump, with just water changes.

foreseeable problems - you will not have enough space for the corals very soon and will need a bigger tank 

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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Your plumbing plan looks very sound. You may want to put a union on both sides of the check valve so you can switch it out when it starts to get clogged up or worse eventually fails. If at all possible I would run less water in the sump and avoid the check valve altogether. 
As for the baffles that's a great catch Phil made there. It will limit your future possible upgrades. Make the Baffles taller and use a stand for the skimmer for now to get the depth you need. 7-9 inches is the average.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

I would follow Sig's advice and just get a bigger tank 

I understand the aesthetics part, so to get around that you have to make a quick back of the napkin calculation at so how much water will siphon back into the sump assuming the WORST case scenario (check valve completely fails, display tank drops to below the outlet of the return nozzles).

Let's overestimate and say that that's 4" of water (a lot on a 20g, but possible) - on your tank about 7 gallons. It's important to consider that when running, your water level will be 0.5-1" higher than the bottom of the teeth of your overflow. On small tanks this might be a very small extra volume, but when you apply this to a bigger tank, suddenly it's an extra 5 -10 gallons....

You have to calculate the running volume of your sump if all the chambers are full of water + a few % extra to make up for the amount flowing through the pipes at any given time. This depends on your baffle height and spacing. It's a b*tch to do, but it can save you from thousands of dollars in damages later on, so you might as well do it now. 

Go ahead and make that calculation and see if your current sump design can hold all the water just in case you encounter the worst possible scenario on siphon and backflow. And once you've got it designed to fit all the water right, remember to give yourself a 5-10% safety window (extra space) for things that can also add volume back to the sump like filled skimmers (an extra gallon here), media reactors (an extra gallon there), and before you know if your designed margin of error is full 

I took these into consideration when designing my 30g sump under a 100g tank in a condo. I can turn off all the systems and everything will backflow and siphon (even with siphon breaks on the return lines, they take a few seconds to break the siphon) and the sump can hold the extra volume just fine which gives me a lot of peace of mind 

This way if you do get any catastrophic failures, and if the power shuts off and the display backflows, your sump can handle all the extra water without overflowing and possibly ending your aquarium hobby adventure.

Good luck!

edit: not an engineer. I'm sure there's a few other things to consider


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Another thing to consider - if you run a manifold/loop off the return pump, it can be tricky to dial in certain overflow setups.

Looking at your setup, I'm guessing you're running a basic durso design, which works fine as it pretty much self adjusts and isn't too sensitive to changes in water flow.

What I've found however is that when I switched to a Herbie overflow setup (full siphon return + full open overflow) is that it's VERY sensitive to changes in water flow (return rate). And I have a manifold off the return line, so when I adjust the flow to my media reactors, it messes up my Herbie setup. In future, I'll still run a Herbie, but I'll no longer run a manifold off the return.

Oh, make a space/holder for a filter sock. I regret not having a filter sock holder designed into my current setup.


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## 4pokguy (Apr 27, 2011)

I know a bigger display tank is always better, but like I said, I already have the tank, and I don't want to spend more money getting a larger one. I will get a custom made one later down the road if this one is successful and thriving. I just want to prove to myself that I'm able to manage this one first.

So far for the plumbing, I'm going to add unions on either side of the check valve, like FessoClown said... and possibly a couple of other places. 
I'm also going to add an extra tee that loops from the return back into the skimmer chamber, just in case I want to add a media reactor or something else in the future. 
I think I'm going to switch all the ball valves to gate valves. And also add one to the drain, just in case. Anyone know where to get pvc gate valves at a good price? Looking online, the big box hardware stores only seem to carry brass ones.

Ameekplec, thanks for those tips. Seems in line with everything I've read online so far. Good call on leaving an extra 5-10% so that I can add a media reactor in the future. I guess I just got to get cracking on those measurements now.


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

4pokguy said:


> WiseGuy, I haven't cut the glass for the baffles yet. The reason I'm only leaving 6" of space in the skimmer chamber is because I'm using a CAD Lights PLS-50 Skimmer. It only requires 3.25"x3x5" of space. But now that you mention it, I would make it a bit larger and do 7 or 8" so I can accommodate a PLS-100 if I decide to upgrade to a custom 40 or 50 gallon in the future. But I'll see if I can manage this system first.
> BTW, what's the other foreseeable problem?


From experience, I would suggest you make the skimmer chamber much bigger. I built my sump around a Skimz SM121 which has a very small foot print and now I want to replace it, my choices are very limited due to the dimensions of the Skimmer section. Think of it as future proofing your setup.


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

4pokguy said:


> I think I'm going to switch all the ball valves to gate valves. And also add one to the drain, just in case. Anyone know where to get pvc gate valves at a good price? Looking online, the big box hardware stores only seem to carry


Good call, gate valves are expensive but much more precision to dial in your flow than ball valves. I would also suggest true unions on both sides of the valve to make it easier for cleaning/replacement etc. BulkReefSupply sell them or you can get them from JJ Downs in Etobicoke.


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

Here is some good insight on check valves



> "The use of check valves to prevent backflow in pipes with outflow
> below the water surface is unreliable for permanent operation of a
> reef aquarium display. The principal reason is that failure of such a
> check-valve system can result in a flood that would damage the
> ...


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Sorry for the late reply. Just heading out but I wanted to upload this for you... I can explain the details all the details a bit later but the main things you should consider.

1. Filter sock (for small tanks its a must have!!!)
2. Refugium should have have surface skimming for food and a light above it for the food to move up to
3. Baffles did not have a measurement, 1" apart is sufficient.
4. Larger Skimmer area, good for putting floss or TLF reactor.
5. More unions for quick disconnect and clean. Easier to prevent clogs.


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## 4pokguy (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the reply WiseGuy. I think i'm still going to keep the fuge on the right side and have the pump divert some of the water into the fuge area. I think the mag 5 might to be too much if were to go into the returns only. I know I can adjust the flow with the valves, but I want to eliminate back pressure so I can extend the life of the pump.
I calculated about 3" for the baffles taking the thickness of the glass into consideration. I just forgot to illustrate it. I read that I should be using 3/8" glass for the baffles. Is that correct? 
I will definitely make the skimmer chamber larger to accommodate a larger skimmer in the future. And thanks for pointing out the filter sock! I will add that as a must-have. Do I need a separate baffle for the filter sock? or can I just have it on a hanger in the skimmer chamber? 
I'm also thinking of adding another tee to the return just incase i want to run a reactor or something in the future. I'll just add it and either close it off with a valve or have it loop back to the skimmer section, depending on how much flow is coming out of the returns.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

It would be easier and safer to run a reactor with a pump within the skimmer baffle. The more water you are pushing, the more noise you will have. Also it's more reliable this way due to having to rely on alot of plumbing outside the sump. More connections means more possibilities of leaks (I am having this problem right now.)

Good luck!!


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi sorry for the late reply. Busy Thanksgiving weekend 

3/8 is fine although I used 1/4 inch.

The idea for the seperate baffle is to get prevent dibris from landing in the skimmer chamber. It is not required however it helps in my experience.

Additionally with the off set refugium, I will for warn you. Beward of spash and microbubbles  Your essentially creating a water fall effect into your return chamber 

Aside from that you could 'T' for a reactor however I would use a separate MJ 900 for a TLF reactor.



4pokguy said:


> Thanks for the reply WiseGuy. I think i'm still going to keep the fuge on the right side and have the pump divert some of the water into the fuge area. I think the mag 5 might to be too much if were to go into the returns only. I know I can adjust the flow with the valves, but I want to eliminate back pressure so I can extend the life of the pump.
> I calculated about 3" for the baffles taking the thickness of the glass into consideration. I just forgot to illustrate it. I read that I should be using 3/8" glass for the baffles. Is that correct?
> I will definitely make the skimmer chamber larger to accommodate a larger skimmer in the future. And thanks for pointing out the filter sock! I will add that as a must-have. Do I need a separate baffle for the filter sock? or can I just have it on a hanger in the skimmer chamber?
> I'm also thinking of adding another tee to the return just incase i want to run a reactor or something in the future. I'll just add it and either close it off with a valve or have it loop back to the skimmer section, depending on how much flow is coming out of the returns.


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## 4pokguy (Apr 27, 2011)

I will go with 1/4" glass for the baffles then... it'll be cheaper 
How much smaller do I need to cut the glass? For example, if the inside of the sump is 18" wide, do I cut the glass 17.75" wide? is a quarter-inch enough or too much?


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## WiseGuyPhil (Jun 15, 2011)

Quarter inch works well or go on kijiji and find used windows and cut the glass yourself.



4pokguy said:


> I will go with 1/4" glass for the baffles then... it'll be cheaper
> How much smaller do I need to cut the glass? For example, if the inside of the sump is 18" wide, do I cut the glass 17.75" wide? is a quarter-inch enough or too much?


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

WiseGuyAquatics said:


> Quarter inch works well or go on kijiji and find used windows and cut the glass yourself.


agreed, glass is often free if you look around and with a little practice it is easy peasy to cut it. Just youtube it for directions. Glass shop often have a waste pile outback.


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## duckhams (Oct 13, 2009)

4pokguy said:


> I will go with 1/4" glass for the baffles then... it'll be cheaper
> How much smaller do I need to cut the glass? For example, if the inside of the sump is 18" wide, do I cut the glass 17.75" wide? is a quarter-inch enough or too much?


I have a baffle already cut at 9" for a 40 breeder. I got 2 cut (only used 1) at Modernage Glass in Etobicoke. PM me if you want it.


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