# What substrate is under $20 and under?



## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm on a tight budget, and i would't need alotta of substrate since its for a 10g. I need something thats black and has good plant nutrients and will last long. I was thinking towards buying black fluorite but thats already over budget, if anyone knows some great deals or what substrate is cheap tell me!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Try and make your own mineralized top soil.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

I heard people have great results with top soil ! But heard it messes up your water's parameter? Do you know any brands of top soil i could use?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BoiBJ said:


> I heard people have great results with top soil ! But heard it messes up your water's parameter? Do you know any brands of top soil i could use?


your back yard, lol


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

LLOL seriously or you just joking , if seriously then that's awesome going to start my tank project tmr


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BoiBJ said:


> LLOL seriously or you just joking , if seriously then that's awesome going to start my tank project tmr


Nope, I'm serious. Store-bought top soil are all too high in organic matter. The soil I have in my backyard, once you dig beneath the top soil, is pretty sticky and clay-like. Just make sure you didn't spray any chemicals on your lawn or anything...

You'll need to cover the mineralized top soil with some kind of heavy substrate though, to prevent the soil from making a mess in the water.


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

Fluorite black sand can be found for about $22-30. One bag would be more than enough for a thick layer.

"dirting" a tank has become a popular and inexpensive way to keep plants, but you still want a black top layer right? so you still gotta buy something for it.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

A cheap alternative for a black top layer could be inert black gravel. I sometimes find these sold in bulk at various LFS. Big Al's also carry small bags of it (enough for the top layer of a 10g) at around 8$ IIRC.

I think there's also a kind of black sand that you can get from Home Depot, but I don't remember the details.


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## Y2KGT (Jul 20, 2009)

Will said:


> Fluorite black sand can be found for about $22-30. One bag would be more than enough for a thick layer.
> 
> "dirting" a tank has become a popular and inexpensive way to keep plants, but you still want a black top layer right? so you still gotta buy something for it.


I agree with Will. Save yourself a lot of potential problems and get the real stuff for just a few dollars more. Your fish will thank you for it too.
--
Paul


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

Hmm then ill go with backyard soil then, just gotta wait till the weather warms up , then its time to start digging!!


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

A bag of soil is like $2-5 though. Especially low this time of year.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Top soil from the back yard, especially if you go to the subsoil, is already mineralized, which makes it better than bagged top soil. Black blasting sand is cheap if you want a sand top. When I use soil, I mix if with the first inch or so of gravel, and cover with an inch or more of plain gravel.


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## iBetta (Jun 19, 2011)

sorry for the noob question, but would topsoil contain more minerals than sub/midsoil? which layer is best to use? 

thanks!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

iBetta said:


> sorry for the noob question, but would topsoil contain more minerals than sub/midsoil? which layer is best to use?
> 
> thanks!


I would say subsoil is better, as topsoil contains the most amount of organic matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/300-399/nb372.htm



> The upper layer or topsoil is the "A" horizon. In forests and prairies, this is covered with humus -- decayed and decaying remains of plants and animals. The topsoil, which may be a scant few inches or several feet deep, merges with the mineral subsoil, the "B" horizon, such as clay, or loess, or muck. This contains some of the elements needed by plants, in forms which must be changed before they can be used.


Another idea I've read about is to use river silt as a substrate.


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## iBetta (Jun 19, 2011)

solarz said:


> I would say subsoil is better, as topsoil contains the most amount of organic matter.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil
> 
> http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/300-399/nb372.htm


oh cool! thanks!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BillD said:


> Black blasting sand is cheap if you want a sand top.


Where can you find black blasting sand in Toronto? I also hear that it might be made of different substances, some might even be coal slag? That can't be safe for fishes...


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

im so excited to start rescaping my tank, just gotta wait till weather warms up for a few days though, if it doesnt ill go buy some bags of soiil then. Does anybody know what brands are good(available at walmart or homedepot)? But I'll probably go with my own subsoil!


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BoiBJ said:


> im so excited to start rescaping my tank, just gotta wait till weather warms up for a few days though, if it doesnt ill go buy some bags of soiil then. Does anybody know what brands are good(available at walmart or homedepot)? But I'll probably go with my own subsoil!


Hey, you might want to read this:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

It takes a while to mineralize soil.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

solarz said:


> Where can you find black blasting sand in Toronto? I also hear that it might be made of different substances, some might even be coal slag? That can't be safe for fishes...


I don't know specifically where in Toronto, but stores that cater to construction and or sand blasting will carry it. The most likely one you will find is Bell and MacKenzie brand which is nickel slag, and is what I have. Black Beauty brand is coal slag and according to the head of that company, it is ideal for aquariums. My neighbor who works in construction tells me that for municipal blasting jobs, they have to use the black rather than silica, I assume because it is safer as silica dust is a carcinogen.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

solarz said:


> Hey, you might want to read this:
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html
> 
> It takes a while to mineralize soil.


Exactly, which is why I prefer to get the subsoil, rather than bagged topsoil which generally has added humus. However, I know lots of people who have used topsoil (myself included) with good results. Jim Robinson spoke on plants at our October meeting and he always added manure to his topsoils for planting.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks for the link Solarz!


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## Yami (May 1, 2011)

i use ada soil, plants grow very fast and green


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

I use Fluorite & Turface mix


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

Yami thanks for the suggestion but for me ADA is pretty costly for me! Btw guys , how deep to you have to dig in Scarborough to reach the sub soil so far i dug 30cm and the soil below still loooks like topsoil =/ , the consistency seems to be different though, theres not much organic matter 0_0 and kinda looks like clay, but dark brown, isnt subsoil a reddish or light brown colour?


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

Never mind , finally duh far enough that i found the subsoil layer, is it a lightish brown and a bit yellow or copper coloured, dunno how to describe, its reddish abit too? I think I found iron rich clay!


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

I can see this going poorly, lol... there's other stuff such as bugs and bacteria you don't want in dirt from outside. It's not even suggested to take soil from outside for your plants inside.

Most of the people who go for using normal soil in their tank use some sort of mineralized indoor potting soil which has been disinfected or spend a lot of time preparing the outdoor soil to take out the junk you don't want. I don't think you can just grab soil from outside and dump it in your tank if that was what you were thinking. That would be a mess.

Not to mention you'd need some sort of capping substrate on top of the soil, unless you're intending on not putting in any fish at all.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

splur said:


> I can see this going poorly, lol... there's other stuff such as bugs and bacteria you don't want in dirt from outside. It's not even suggested to take soil from outside for your plants inside.
> 
> Most of the people who go for using normal soil in their tank use some sort of mineralized indoor potting soil which has been disinfected or spend a lot of time preparing the outdoor soil to take out the junk you don't want. I don't think you can just grab soil from outside and dump it in your tank if that was what you were thinking. That would be a mess.
> 
> Not to mention you'd need some sort of capping substrate on top of the soil, unless you're intending on not putting in any fish at all.


Hmm but I think i dug deep enough that i reached under the organic layer of soil where the bugs are though. I know it may potentially mess up my water in my main tank thats why I'm doing a small scale experiment to see how things go, and I'm willing to spend time preparing it too . This project is the highlight of my weekend , it gives something for a teen like me to do!


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

Lol k, I guess if you know what you're getting yourself into.

I remember when I used some outdoor soil before for my terrarium. Had a hell of a time getting rid of the bugs, had to resort to insecticides, didn't dig super deep though. I have no idea how deep the insects go.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

LOL , I just dug about 40-50cm , aftter I got past some roots and some grubs I got subsoil xD , off topic but if I succeed with my project( using my old fishbowl its about 2 gallons) and plant some stuff. Would it be possible to add a betta to it? Would the plants be able to sustain the bio load , without a need for a filter?


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

splur said:


> I can see this going poorly, lol... there's other stuff such as bugs and bacteria you don't want in dirt from outside. It's not even suggested to take soil from outside for your plants inside.
> 
> Most of the people who go for using normal soil in their tank use some sort of mineralized indoor potting soil which has been disinfected or spend a lot of time preparing the outdoor soil to take out the junk you don't want. I don't think you can just grab soil from outside and dump it in your tank if that was what you were thinking. That would be a mess.


Come on, do you really believe that they disinfect garden topsoil? How would they even go about doing that? Boil it? Soak it in bleach?

Mineralized Top Soil (MTS) is not just "dumping your backyard dirt into a fish tank". If you read the link I provided, it requires a process of several cycles of soaking and drying. There is no risk. First, soil does not contain much pathogens. We don't rush a kid to hospital if he eats some dirt. Furthermore, terrestrial pathogens can't survive in an aquatic environment, or vice versa. Finally, the mineralization process itself is designed to get rid of as much organic matter as possible, making the likelihood of any nasty hiding in there to be virtually zero.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BoiBJ said:


> LOL , I just dug about 40-50cm , aftter I got past some roots and some grubs I got subsoil xD , off topic but if I succeed with my project( using my old fishbowl its about 2 gallons) and plant some stuff. Would it be possible to add a betta to it? Would the plants be able to sustain the bio load , without a need for a filter?


Yes, but the main difficulty would be to supply enough light for the plants to allow decent growth.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

solarz said:


> Come on, do you really believe that they disinfect garden topsoil? How would they even go about doing that? Boil it? Soak it in bleach?
> 
> Mineralized Top Soil (MTS) is not just "dumping your backyard dirt into a fish tank". If you read the link I provided, it requires a process of several cycles of soaking and drying. There is no risk. First, soil does not contain much pathogens. We don't rush a kid to hospital if he eats some dirt. Furthermore, terrestrial pathogens can't survive in an aquatic environment, or vice versa. Finally, the mineralization process itself is designed to get rid of as much organic matter as possible, making the likelihood of any nasty hiding in there to be virtually zero.


By the way in the link you gave me it uses potting soil and other added stuff like dolomite and stuff. Question is , if with subsoil do i need to add anything or i just follow that procedure without the added stuff like dolomite. And can i get away with only doing that process of drying it on the tarp 2 times only? And after that , once i put in the tank do i just top off with something inert?


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

solarz said:


> Yes, but the main difficulty would be to supply enough light for the plants to allow decent growth.


I have a 12 watt incadescent lamp lying around , is that more than sufficient? And could I get away with stocking some RCS instead?


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## Yami (May 1, 2011)

BoiBJ said:


> I have a 12 watt incadescent lamp lying around , is that more than sufficient? And could I get away with stocking some RCS instead?


12watt? this wattage in only LED will be sufficient.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

=( awws , even not sufficient for low light plants??


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

BoiBJ said:


> I have a 12 watt incadescent lamp lying around , is that more than sufficient? And could I get away with stocking some RCS instead?


More important is what kind of lamp you have. Don't use incadescent, use CFL.



> By the way in the link you gave me it uses potting soil and other added stuff like dolomite and stuff. Question is , if with subsoil do i need to add anything or i just follow that procedure without the added stuff like dolomite. And can i get away with only doing that process of drying it on the tarp 2 times only? And after that , once i put in the tank do i just top off with something inert?


The dolomite and clay is for adding additional micronutrients. You can probably get away without it.

I don't think doing the process only 2 times is enough, especially when it's cold. Bacteria activity is probably slow at lower temperatures. Maybe you can do it inside, where you can get lots of sunlight?


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

solarz said:


> More important is what kind of lamp you have. Don't use incadescent, use CFL.
> 
> The dolomite and clay is for adding additional micronutrients. You can probably get away without it.
> 
> I don't think doing the process only 2 times is enough, especially when it's cold. Bacteria activity is probably slow at lower temperatures. Maybe you can do it inside, where you can get lots of sunlight?


Yup your probably right , better be safe than sorry


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

solarz said:


> Come on, do you really believe that they disinfect garden topsoil? How would they even go about doing that? Boil it? Soak it in bleach?


I never said garden topsoil. I said indoor potting soil, which is typically steamed or baked to sterilize the soil from seeds and insects. Some companies don't though and there have been people to complain about gnat and millipede eggs which wreaks havoc. I've done it before, but it's not suggested to use garden topsoil for indoor plants.

Bacteria and pathogens aren't the worry, it's having insects and bugs invade your home which is exactly what happened with my terrarium.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

splur said:


> I never said garden topsoil. I said indoor potting soil, which is typically steamed or baked to sterilize the soil from seeds and insects. Some companies don't though and there have been people to complain about gnat and millipede eggs which wreaks havoc. I've done it before, but it's not suggested to use garden topsoil for indoor plants.
> 
> Bacteria and pathogens aren't the worry, it's having insects and bugs invade your home which is exactly what happened with my terrarium.


terrestrial insects and bugs can't survive aquatic environments. Their aquatic larval stages can't survive on land either.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

solarz said:


> terrestrial insects and bugs can't survive aquatic environments. Their aquatic larval stages can't survive on land either.


Ah, that's good to know then.


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## BoiBJ (Aug 10, 2011)

splur said:


> Ah, that's good to know then.


But they will become a tasty snack for your fish =D!


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