# New guy needs advice



## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Well, I got all the parts to setup a 65 gal saltwater project and was only missing a protein skimmer. I was looking to buy just that and ended up buying a complete 3 year old setup. Needless to say, instead of starting off slow and getting my feet wet (pun intended), here I am in the deep end. BTW, lot of reading but no hands-on experience.

Last weekend, I moved all of the other guys stuff into my setup. This is what I now have:

65 gal tank (new)
60 pounds live rock (from original setup)
1 1/2" aragonite substrate (new)
Coralife CF 2-65w white, 2-65w actinic (new)
Fluval 305 canister (rated 70gal) (new)
Aquaclear hang on filter (from original setup)
Aquaclear hang on protein skimmer (from original setup)
Pink tip anemone (8-10")
Heniochus (6")
4 snails

I used 75% of the original water, put everything together and let it go. I run the lights around 8 hours a day, with moonlights all night.

Some info:
Move took 5 hours and startup looked good
On day 2, Re- arranged some unstable looking rocks, which spooked the anemone to move under the rock it was on. All levels good, but Nitrate over 80ppm
On day 3, put in 1/4 cube of mysis, but fish didn't eat
Next few days, just watched. Nitrate levels still over 80, but creatures look ok. Tried a little more mysis, but fish too spooked to come out in the light. No more feeding attempts.
Nitrate levels still high, but seeming to come down. It was up around 140 when I got the water tested on day 5, but seems to now be around 70ppm.
Fish only seems to come out when the lights are down, so yesterday I turned off evrything and put in some mysis. Fish ate most of it.
Algae did start to grow, but doesn't look like it's out of control. Gave the glass a scrubbing.

Just put in an RO system on Monday. Plan to do a 10% change tonight.

Thanks for reading this far. Now for the advice portion:

-Worried about the nitrate levels. Do I need to do anything drastic or wait it out a little longer?
-Protein skimmer doesn't have much in it, but I'm not sure if it's setup correctly. It looks and sounds ok. How do you know if it's working properly? It is exactly the same as the hang-on Prizm one at Big Al's.
-Lighting timer is set from 12-8pm. ok?
-Got some strange white spongy stuff growing on the rocks. Some round (1/2") and some sort of growing sideways(2" long). Good or bad? Remove or not?
- Got some purplish slimy stuff. The original tank had quite a bit, but I believe it shouldn't be there. Not much there now, but should I remove it or not?
- Want to add a clownfish. Kids don't have the same patience. How to know when? Which one(s) are recommended?
- Want to add some type of clean up crew. When to add and what do you suggest?
- Thought 3-4 Chromis might be nice to watch and inexpensive. Any thoughts or alternate suggestions? 

Appreciate any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Few comments, As for feeding, i would give it a day or 2 for your fish to relax and get comfortable before trying again. You are only adding more waste to the system

White sponges are normally a good thing, will need a picture to verify... 

You can add a cleanup crew, but i would wait for nitrate to lower (water changes & let things stabalize)


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## acer (May 18, 2010)

what is in your aquaclear hob? is there anyway you can add a refugium?
that would eat up most of the nitrates in your tank. 

lights... are ok... the "usual" is around 10 hours. 

CUC first then fish.... I would avoid hermit crabs though. they are such a pain (for me at least). too bad though cause sea u marine just had their snails on for 99 cents, which would have saved you a lot. 

as for clowns... false perculas are very hardy and relatively cheap compared to other clowns (don't go to big al's for them, such a rip off). but it's more about personal taste as sebaes and clarkis are pretty inexpensive now too. you probably won't be going for the mutations they have for the false and true perculas for a bit, but that is where they can get expensive and quite different... if you were looking for different (snowflakes, picassos, nakeds, darknights, dominos, black ice, etc).


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

The aquaclear has a carbon filter and a poly filter pad. The fluval has the standard stuff that came in the box.

Not sure about the refugium, but space is limited due to all the accessories on now ... and no plans for a sump at the moment

Is there a way to find current deals out there ? ..like the one you mentioned?

Also.. it appears that most find Big A's a rip off. The US price for most of the same stuff is half. Where do you guy's suggest in the Woodbridge area ?


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## cidco (Aug 10, 2010)

*Congrats on the saltwater setup.*

Yeah, your tank is not 100% established..

The substrate will take about 3 months to establish..

Getting your nitrates down would be the first thing to take care of...

1. Make sure that you know how to do your water changes..

2. As you are getting your nitrate down start thinking about getting a clean up crew...

3. Your skimmer should start producing within a few days of operation.. If it hasn't yet.. Check that out ASAP.

Your light cycle is fine.

If you need help PM me your contact info...


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Hello.
well Idea of using a canister filter in saltwater set up has its disadvantages, the most important being that it sits below water level, and WILL build up detritus at the bottom, which will rot and degrade your water. so they need to be cleaned frequently. secondly, most of the media that comes with it, are used to convert ammonia, and nitrite, to nitrate (no3) but does not have the ability to convert no3 to nitrogen gas, like Live rock does !.

I have 2 FOWLR tanks, running with no skimmer, overstocked and using canisters, and here is my advice, empty the canister, just run carbon in there, and clean it every 2 weeks (This can be your water change !, take canister off line, clean and wash it, watch your hands for worms they sting, renew carbon, and fill up with new saltwater ) and back online... this will empty up the Aquaclear HOB, and then you can head down to home depot and buy a light fixture that clamps on the side of tank, put some cheato in the AQHOB filter, and you got yourself a Fuge !! this will lower your no3 and po4 very well, and you need to trim the cheato as it grows.

protein skimmer on a sumpless tank is a PITA ! as water level changes, the skimmer needs to be re-tuned, keep playing iwth it though till you get it.

the purpelish slimy stuff are most likely Cyano bacteria, with no3 of 70 PPM, they will take over, so you need to get fuge and skimmer going fast  although as others mentioned, after a month or so, your Sand bed will also start denitrifying. now how old are the light bulbs ? if older than 6 months, think of changing them out, as older bulbs shift to red spectrum of lighting and can cause cyano bacteria and other algea to grow.

what carbon do you use ? ID recommend getting a po4 remover along with carbon and place both in canister, or even one of those Elite carbons from BA, they remove po4 and SI as well which are fuel for algea.

the more you take to add fish, the better. but we have all been there and know how hard it is to wait  lol Idwait till no3 reaches 20 ppm at least.

www.seaumarine.com has his specials on friday mornings, Ken is the owner and a very nice and knowledgeable person, probably closest to your area, and then there is NAFB, ORG and meng ... downtown.

as of feeding, thaw the Cube before hand, that willl get them eating much faster, BUT try pellets instead of frozen, as frozen food is really messy and degrades water faster.

good luck  and have fun with it.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback. 

Big Ray, wish I'd spoken to you before I started, but here we are.

Did a 10% change last night. Removed some of the red slime. Just checking my water change procedure - used RO water, mixed salt overnight, checked salinity, used heater and powerhead for an hour or so, then siphoned some water out while doing minimal substrate cleaning. Slowly poured in the new water and good to go. Left the filters alone as it has only been a week. Shut power off during change. Did I miss anything ? 

Good to hear that someone is successful without a protein skimmer. For now, I'll play with it and see.

The Fuge idea sounds great. Not completely sure about the details. Is the plan to empty the aquaclear HOB, put the chaeto in the filter compartment and make it the refugium? is the light for the fuge? where do you get chaeto? 

First I've heard about worms in the canister. Thanks for the warning.

Bought the CFL at Big Al's on clearance a while back (not in the box). Not sure if the lamps are new, used or how old. Any way to tell? At 45 bucks a piece and 4 of them, I'd hate to spend if I don't need to. Easy to say just change then when you're not sure, but another $200 at start-up would not make me happy.

Yeah, waiting sucks, specially when you have a couple of little kids asking you every day about new fish. How do you explain that even though everything LOOKS good, the "invisible stuff" is out of whack. Plus, I want to see more in there too.

Appreciate all the advice. Keep it coming.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Dax said:


> Yeah, waiting sucks, specially when you have a couple of little kids asking you every day about new fish. How do you explain that even though everything LOOKS good, the "invisible stuff" is out of whack. Plus, I want to see more in there too.
> 
> Appreciate all the advice. Keep it coming.


Easier to tell the kids that your doing this so the fish get comfortable with the family, and it takes a few weeks....

If they are old enough for that not to work then you can tell them you want to make sure they dont have a parasite, lol


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Just tell the kids that the fish man is in the sea catching the fish for you right now but it'll take a few weeks for him to find them all.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Big Ray, wish I'd spoken to you before I started, but here we are.
> 
> ...


Hello,
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=192628
this should give you a good Idea as of how to transform the HOB filter. you do not have to follow it to the T though, you can make what works for you best 

cheato, many reef stores have them and will give you for free, if not Im sure many of the members here would be wiling to give you some to get it started. the plus side of Fuge is that you can have copepods grow and reproduce in there, which eat detritus and can be eaten by fish and corals !!

unfortunetly, the clearance on lighting at BA is usually due to lights being old and if you notice, the price they knock off, is most of the times same as the price of new bulbs !! I have fallen victum of that with MH fixtures lol

the skimmer is REALLY good to have, not a must, doable without, but it would help out your tank in many different ways, even if its just bubbling, it would increase oxygen and stabalize PH, try to get it to skimm dry so no overflow.

have fun


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Again, wish I'd spoken to you earlier. Thought I was getting a deal on the lights. Sad, but at least it feels better to know that there are more victims out there.

Question about the canister. You said to only use the carbon; Should I get rid of the ceramic rings, replace them with something else, or just leave the compartments empty?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

yea, you learn from mistakes though, we have all been there 

the Live rock, and the Live sand that you have in the Display Tank, are working as your biological filtration, converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate and hopefully some nitrate to nitrogen gas, and hopefully the rest of no3 will be picked up by the cheato. (see this is where the balance comes into play, amount of no3 you can remove VS number of fish and feeding.)
so In My Opinion, the ceramix rings and ... are not needed, due to two reasons,

1. the LR is doing it, and they do it really well, you simply do not need more if you have good amount of LR and good flow around it.

2. Live Rock and Live sand CAN convert no3 to other forms like Nitrogen gas and send out of water, the ceramix rings can not do that ! so it would just increase your no3.

so this is my reasoning why I keep my canisters on those tanks empty with only some carbon and GFO in it.

alternatively, after a while, if you REALLY wanted to give some thing a try, ID go with SEACHEM Matrix.here is the web page for it. http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...es/Matrix.html
the structure will allow for bacteria to colonize inside it, and like LR, when these guys are seeded, they actually have ability of removing no3 (by having areas full of oxygen and areas poor in Oxygen which removes the O our of no3, and leaves Nitrogen gas !! N2. I use that in my Most overstocked tank, in canister, and every 2 weeks while cleaning the canister, I take those out and wash them well under HOT tap water to remove bacteria, I think its working, and Idea was given to me by Murray, a very respected reefer whos articles I have posted here. just opinions though, many could disagree.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks for the link. Gave me some good ideas.
Feel better knowing i'm not the only victim of a BA "deal".

Now on to find out what a copepod is.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Big Ray you lost me.

The Seachem stuff you said grew bacteria that helped with the NO3, but then why would you kill them off every two weeks?

Love the responses, but still getting used to the terminology. Keep it coming.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Big Ray you lost me.
> 
> The Seachem stuff you said grew bacteria that helped with the NO3, but then why would you kill them off every two weeks?
> 
> Love the responses, but still getting used to the terminology. Keep it coming.


OOPS, reading back, you are right, I made a mistake 
at water changes, I wash the stones in TANK water (tank water which was removed to change water)lol not Tap water, my bad, and thanks for bringing it up  I gotta pay more attention lol

washing it reduces the detritus and mulm build up, and allows for more to form., the bacteria will colonize and eat up no3 and po4, you remove those bacteria which means no3 and po4 are removed with it.

(kinda what Zeovit System does, Zeovit uses Zeolith stones, for bacteria to build up and consume N and P, and then you need to shake it daily to release the mulm, which can be used by corals and fish as food and then removed by skimmer, since your skimmer is not that strong, Id suggest washing or shaking the stones in tank water after water change to remove them manually, instead of releasing it into tank and hoping skimmer would take it out.

JMHO!


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## acer (May 18, 2010)

I'd give you some chaeto... but I don't know where you are, so it kind of depends on that... and if it's far I might have to charge you a bit for gas nothing insane, just a couple of bucks.


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## aquanutt (Aug 27, 2010)

congrat on a new setup...
keep us posted on the progress.

Sly


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

*newbie, feeling stupid*

This is my first forum and I'm still not used to getting around. I missed the page 2 arrow at the bottom and couldn't figure out what happed to my new post.

Anyway, started a new thread asking about nitrates cause a few PWCs later no change.

Going to try something tonight (50% water change)
Make 25 gal new water (assume rocks displace 10 gal)
Remove 5 gal tank water and mix to new water
Replace 5 gal from new mix back to tank
Wait for tank to cycle 10-15 minutes
Repeat 2 more times.
Continue 2 more times tomorrow.

Theory:
50gal old+25gal new= 75 gal mix
Remove 25 gal of original tank water with this method.
25/75= 33% change
Therefore, nitrates should drop by 33%

Let me know, Green light or Red light.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> This is my first forum and I'm still not used to getting around. I missed the page 2 arrow at the bottom and couldn't figure out what happed to my new post.
> 
> Anyway, started a new thread asking about nitrates cause a few PWCs later no change.
> 
> ...


Hello,
good read about water changes :
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

in general, water changes are not the best way to lower n or p and will not have much effect, as you are not adding a way to remove n and p, you are removing some and more will build up .. .

I wouldnt do water change like you said, waste of water, if you want to do 50% water change, do 10% every night for 5 nights, see the link for calculations how it would turn out to be the same. doing a 50% water change at once will shock everything in your tank.
PS. do not mix tank water with new salt water. it will go bad.

PSS. I gotta correct the confusion up there ... you could also wash the stones with tap water and that will remove more n and p ! my weekend research lol

good luck.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Man there is a lot of information out there !! 

I get conflicting information about cleaning up biomedia. If you use tap water, doesn't the chlorine kill off any good bacteria ?

Thanks for the info about water changes; saves me a bit of complication and cost.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Man there is a lot of information out there !!
> 
> I get conflicting information about cleaning up biomedia. If you use tap water, doesn't the chlorine kill off any good bacteria ?
> 
> Thanks for the info about water changes; saves me a bit of complication and cost.


" If you use tap water, doesn't the chlorine kill off any good bacteria ?"

yes it will, but more can build up .... again, these discussions can go on and on  even within scientists lol

haha and agreed on alot of info, but good part is, you never run out of stuff to read/learn about


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Love to read and learn new stuff. I can see that this hobby can keep anyone guessing no matter how experienced they get.

Again the water change article was great. I think I'll try cleaning/emptying out my canister every night for a week and record the effect. Still on the fence about converting the HOB as a fuge. Sounds like what I need, but I have to reserve some time to actually get it done. Can do a lot of little things, but one big one is harder to accomplish with kids.

I like the idea of adding a macro algae directly to the tank and then removing it once things get settled. Not sure which ones would fit the bill for lowering nitrates and being easy to remove. i.e. don't want to trade a nitrate problem with an algae problem.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Love to read and learn new stuff. I can see that this hobby can keep anyone guessing no matter how experienced they get.
> 
> Again the water change article was great. I think I'll try cleaning/emptying out my canister every night for a week and record the effect. Still on the fence about converting the HOB as a fuge. Sounds like what I need, but I have to reserve some time to actually get it done. Can do a lot of little things, but one big one is harder to accomplish with kids.
> 
> I like the idea of adding a macro algae directly to the tank and then removing it once things get settled. Not sure which ones would fit the bill for lowering nitrates and being easy to remove. i.e. don't want to trade a nitrate problem with an algae problem.


I hear ya lol

but if you are going with fish only, you can make it planted tank !!!
that's what I did for my lionfish tank, the bare live rock were too empty, lol, so I took the Fuge offline, and added some grape algea to the tank, now, half the rocks are covered with the grape algea, no3 and po4 are zero, and the lionfish actually has more hidding room and the tank looks fuller ! AND I have added a tang in there 2 weeks ago, and simply do not feed the tang  he eats the algea that is constantly growing lol


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Quick question. 

Where does an anemone fit into the mix? It's not exactly in the reef/coral category and not a fish. I know its an invertebrate and everyone considers it's needs to be high but in reality how fragile are they? other than decent lighting, do the other parameters really need to be that stringent? Can't say for sure, but so far mine looks healthy after 2 weeks of off the chart nitrates.

I wanted to start off with a FOWLR but since I got an anemone in there already, I'd like to keep it. If my lack of experience means that this creature may die, then I will part with it. For now I don't see it as a problem, but if you can point out the tell-tale signs of trouble, I can act quickly.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

well I personally love anemones, it was my reason for getting a SW tank to begin with lol

usually, subject that we (we I mean science) do not have much info on are debatable, so this is what I think/got from my research.

I do not know the max no3 anemones can live in, but I have seen anemones living in very bad environments and surviving ! (not sure if they will on long run, noone likes bad water)

some signs of anemone not doing well are : its foot not holding tight, it should be sensitive to touch (close up fast), stingy tenticles (Firefox tried to correct me again lol) and its mouth, which should be closed and if open there is a problem . and lastly if its face down ... . . a dead anemone can crash your tank fast.

make sure other parameters are all fine, flow is good, lighting is good, there is rock work for him to climb if he needs more light and .... and try to lower your no3. I posted a thread here named anemone, with alot of scientific papers, and many easier to read articles, which should help you more.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

From the reading i did on Anemones... you have to watch/worry about it getting sucked into your powerhead and polluting your tank...

That is... if it wanders around (which is typically a sign that its not happy with the location... and can mean its unhappy about your whole tank if it never stops trying to find new spots


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Anemone crawled under a rock 2 weeks ago and stayed there. It extends out in the day and balloons up pretty large, almost looking like its tentacles are going to explode; kind of like an overinflated balloon that looks almost transparent before it pops. I would think that sort of behaviour shows "life" but nothing out there regarding this. It's trunk(?) extends out almost 8" from the rock and looks very pink, fleshy and rubbery. I thought this part was supposed to be vulnerable, but this one doesn't seem to be shy.

Funny thing, when the anemone was moving under the rock, it was displacing the Heniouchus' hiding spot; so while it was moving the fish jabbed it a couple of times on the fleshy part. Didn't seem to make any difference. Poor fish lost a really good spot and had to relocate.

The last few days I'd swear the nemme looks like it is splitting, but I'm not sure how to tell. The base looks like one piece, but the trunk distinctly looks like there are 2 groups of tentacles coming out. It waves around too much to see if there are 2 mouths in there.

Honestly, the nemme is really large in there. My tank is 12" wide and it expands to touch both sides. Any way to trim it back ? (lol) I read that if one gets cut up by rocks, both sides become a new one, kind of like worms. I'm not suggesting that I'm going to do some conjoined twin surgery, but seriously are there any options?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

indeed in anemone farms they do split anemones, you can take it out and cut it into 2 pieces, but you gotta be sure its mouth is cut in half and 2 legs for each half. 

unhealthy anemone wont make it though .

bloated tenticles are not a good sign, they are supposed to be streched out and long. 

its base, is its foot, is it holding on to the rock ? or just not holdingon ? if its holding on, you shouldnt see it extending out.

a pic could help too.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

*Pictures with questions*

1. Analysis of the anemone. Healthy? happy? needs attention? splitting?
2. What are the sponge type things on the rocks? remove or leave?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

the anemone is fine IMO

the sponges are good, the filter water and polish it.

the tank looks nice, but Id increase the flow a bit, as I see a bit of cyano coming, and no power heads.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

It sucks when something makes its home in the "back" of your tank.....


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

You said it !!!

My tank is still new, so the back reflects like a mirror when looking from the side. Pretty crazy way to watch something. At least give as the incentive to keep the back clean.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I have a 405 powerhead I put on once in a while, but it seems like too much motion. Is there such a thing? Originally, the inhabitants only had the HOB filter and the skimmer; now there is an additional canister. Don't mind putting on the PH, but don't want to overdo it. If you suggest adding, please look at the setup and let me know the best location for it. I usually put it on the far back-left and aim it at the mid-front of the tank. The Canister output is on the right aimed at the middle.

As for the cyano. Does more flow actually stop it? or is it the nitrates ?

I'm itchin' to add something more in there. The Heniochus just doesn't move unless the lights go out. I'm thinking 3 small chromis couldn't hurt. Don't say go ahead unless you mean it.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Cyano feeds of nitrates... but higher flow makes it more difficult to grow. I know i solved my small outbreak by just adding a new powerhead and making sure the whole tank was getting some current... 

Getting fish out of your tank is very very difficult (some of the faster guys).. .so i would suggest making a list of all the fish you want at the end, and only buying those....


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

higher flow = lower detritus settling and in turns lower nitrate ... (as filter and skimmer can now remove it from water).

it helps alot with Cyano. 

about water flow, my reef SPS tank has over 70 turns per hour ! all fish only tanks over 30 turns per hour !! I like to keep the flow as high as I can just before it starts moving the sand bed. more flow = more oxygen and gas exchange, better PH, less detritus settling, and alot more ... . regarding placement, your call again, just be sure there are no dead spots and there is a good flow throughout the whole tank.


another problem with algea in general is that they collect detritus, and it rots and algea uses it to grow, so you have not not let them get a hold of anything, siphon the algea out, use a tooth brush and ... .

fish is your call, adding more fish will increase the bioload of the tank. you can add more when you feel like your system can handle more.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I try to go about most things very analytically, and when that fails, there is go by feel, which unfortunately is more of a trial and error thing.... ergo, here I am conversing with you good folks. Steeeep learning curve that's for sure. Again, thanks all for your advice.

Now that I have a few tricks in my grab bag, time to just do it. Going to add the powerhead tonight, get the brush out, remove as much algae as possible, then do a small water change. Hopefully by this weekend the nitrates are lower, then I can add the chromis. Clowns will have to wait.

I want to convert the HOB filter to a fuge, but I'd like to see one first using the chaeto. Anyone know where to look?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

well that's the fun part of the hobby, lol, every tank is different, so you gotta try different thing which makes sense to you and follow it .

I didnt get what you meant about he fuge thingi, but here is a pic I could find from one of the HOBs I turned into fuge some time ago.










oops, resize.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Not sure I follow. Is that skimmer part of the fuge, or is the HOB filter beside it the fuge? Too dark to see in there. What is in the filter compartment and how does it stay there?


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

I would give Hubert a call from http://www.reefaquatica.com/ when your ready for your clowns (he also has other stuff at times too)

He has a massive 'fish' setup in his basement with all kinds of clowns... all ages, all types.... Fish are tank raised too so you will get healthy strong fish


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Not sure I follow. Is that skimmer part of the fuge, or is the HOB filter beside it the fuge? Too dark to see in there. What is in the filter compartment and how does it stay there?


well that's a CSS 65, its output is to the Aqufilter HOB 110.

basically, all you need to do is to take the sponge and all media out of the HOB filter, Cut the bottom piece of the sponge holder and place it at the output of the HOB filter to stop the cheato from falling out.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Checked out the link. Is this guy in the GTA and lets you pickup/see? or is it online only?


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

He is in scarborough very close to the Toronto Zoo

Book an appointment and he will let you check out his stuff.. Also has some massive corals

Bought a 2.5" orange clown, and a 1" black clown, and they paired up nicely... best friends now


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Wow, I will definately get a pair of clowns when the tank is ready, but thought I was restricted to the same type. Good to know.

Will give him a call. Thanks.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

They are the same type... as in specific species...

Your not supposed to mix a percula with a clarkii..

But the orange/black combo I purchased are both percula, with just different colours... Multiple people have had success with this type of combo... just dont go mixing species

*edit, my terminology may by off... but i hope you get the point


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## acer (May 18, 2010)

Kweli said:


> They are the same type... as in specific species...
> 
> Your not supposed to mix a percula with a clarkii..
> 
> ...


I believe those are false percs (ocellaris) you got kweli. but yeah all ocellaris can mix with other ocellaris... likewise with true perculas, but you can't mix ocellaris with perculas... or at least I haven't heard of anyone being successful with them pairing.

basically...
ocellaris:
nakeds
black
snowflake
black ice
dark knight --> domino
regular

percula:
picasso
black onyx
regular
regular with more black (not quite black onyx)
platinum

there are probably more, but this is off the top of my head... there are also special names for certain misbar clowns, but they get kind of confusing.

if you want something really cool though, wait a few more years until they figure out the lightning maroon genetics/can actually recreate the pattern. There are maroons that have mutations in their white bars naturally occurring, but not as amazing as that.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

yep. i have 2 false percs....


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

*clownfish*

okay, I just got back from SUM and the false percs were $15 and the true percs were $35. The false ones are actually brighter and the true ones have a little more black. Other than that, what gives?

Going to pick up a couple of snails and hermits on the way home. My first fish store purchase. Anything I should know about selection or acclimation?


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

sorry Dax, unrelated but how's the new shipment of fish/corals? They should have received one last night.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

They mentioned that they are getting a shipment next Thursday for the clowns I wanted....didn't ask about current status.

However, their selection of corals looked pretty stocked up. Never shopped for corals before, but the selection and prices seemed excellent. Lot of stuff for $15 and $20.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Stay away from turbo snails...

Start small instead of going with alot of them. See how the few you have handle the load. Saves you from mass starvation

Nassarius snails are great when you start feeding your tank, as they will cleanup the leftovers.

Astrea snails are slow moving but clean algae with a fine tooth comb

Cerith snail is another good option

As for hermits, I have small blue leg ones... dwarf. Make sure you ask for some "free" shells (at least try) that are bigger then your hermits current shells. They will grow quickly and need bigger homes, or they will kill your snails for some


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Been reading up on hermits. Most people say to steer away from Blue as they are "murderers"... even with extra shells. Scarlet hermits seem to be a safer choice for now, so I'll try a couple.

FYI, the Margarite snails apparently don't handle higher temps very well (ie. >70 deg), which shortens life span considerably.

I'll try to ask for "extra" shells. Good tip.


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## bioload (Oct 20, 2009)

acer said:


> if you want something really cool though, wait a few more years until they figure out the lightning maroon genetics/can actually recreate the pattern. There are maroons that have mutations in their white bars naturally occurring, but not as amazing as that.


In Process....waiting for the spawn

http://www.reefkeeping.ca/forum/media.php?do=details&mid=49


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

bioload said:


> In Process....waiting for the spawn
> 
> http://www.reefkeeping.ca/forum/media.php?do=details&mid=49


Is that supposed to be like fish porn?
Need a new camera guy, the angles were all wrong.. and the soundtrack can use some improvement 

I havent had any issues with my blue hermits... yet... Had them for about 2 months now.. although they do get aggressive & territorial when a nassarius snail slides by. Made sure to get a bunch of extra shells (mostly nassarius shells)..


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## acer (May 18, 2010)

haha... I believe that would be more pg13. 

a thing about hermits...
make sure you get ones that are dwarf/stay smaller and don't require large shells. I have 2 left handeds and they knock more corals around and trample my zoos... it's so annoying, I really want them out. 

I think blue legged and scarlets stay on the smallish side... scarlets aren't AS murderous as the blue legged I find.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Never seen a lightning clown. Now I want one.

Ken at SUM gave me the green light to add a couple of clowns. So, now i'm excited, Maybe I can make my own fish porn ... with better angles ... and better soundtrack ....still pg13 though .... hahaha.

Could use some advice on choosing clowns as this would be my first real fish purchase. (The single large Heniouchus came with the setup.) Some considerations:
- I'd like to get a pair, preferably different colors like the normal perc and the darwin perc
- Be nice for these to "bond" with the anemone
- They have to leave the Heniochus alone. He is huge and wouldn't be able to move around the rocks too well if he got harassed. Already bumps into them.
- The false percs are $15 and everything else seems around $30. Based on look, I like them.
- Don't mind spending more, but cost must be justified
- I like colourful fish with many markings. e.g. I like the skunk clown behaviour, but boring looking fish
- I'll eventually add more fish, haven't yet decided what, but need to consider compatibility.
- Plus any other things you think of..

In the meantime, I'll entertain suggestions as to the final group in the 65 gal FOWLR w/anemone. So far I only have:
BTA - 10-12"
Heniouchus - 6"
4 snails
2 scarlet crabs
Soon to add 2 clowns

You guys are awesome!!!


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

You can either:
a) Buy a pair of clowns that are already paired up
or
b) Buy 2 clowns and hope they pair up. In most cases if you get them young they havent changed sex yet; One will become aggressive and dominate and turn into the female. 

I went with "2 clowns hoping they would pair up"... but i got one an inch larger then the other one. The aggression was very minimal b/c the smaller one would submitt almost instantly. So now i will have a female orange, and a smaller black male. You should do some reading on clowns... its not as simple as just buying 2 of them.

As for hosting the anemone, It doesnt always happen. Clowns seem to pick a "area" of the tank and make that their home. There are many cases where people have got them to move to their anemone, again you need to read up on this. When i put my clownfish in my tank the big one went straight to the corner and that was his home for 3 weeks until i took him out for QT. When i put the black one in it went straight to the orange one and followed it around (and hasnt stopped since)

Only concern I have for you would be the placement of your anemone. If your clowns DO host it they wont venture far from it. Since its in the back of the tank you may not see them often


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## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

Congrats. Looking really good.
When you go to get the fish, take sometime to watch them.Look at his skin,fins,eyes,gills, the hole body. Look for anything out of the normal on him/her. Making sure that their are no marks like rips or scratches or discolouration. Also look at how they swim and interact with the world around them. Clowns are not very active swimmers but try to get one that moves around normal and does not display any spastic swimming. 
Good Luck
Ken Is a good guy. You will be cool. Oh just a note. You should get your own test kit and not rely on the LFS to test your water. Always best to know yourself and not have to run to the fish store. You should be testing every week or so.


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## KeMo (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh and +2 on what Kweli said.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Oh.. while you are doing all that clown research I would also look into quarantine tanks. 

Sometimes you can buy a fish with a disease/parasite.. Something like ICH can really mess up your tank (and doesnt goes away unless all fish are removed)

Im not a salesman for the Clown guy i mentioned earlier, but you have a very low risk of getting something from his clowns (as they are all in seperate tanks)

Alot of fishstores have joined tanks, where the ICH parasite can free-swim to all. I dont know SUM's track record. Only went there once, really liked it but wasnt there for fish


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

there are too many different schools of thought regarding marine ICH .... 

I personally believe all fish have it ... it shows and comes out nad hurts the fish when its stressed, could be caused by shipping, new water, new tank, any sort of shock, bad nutrition and so on .... 

I personally would stay away from crabs, unless needed, meaning if you have a grape algea out break, then its good to get a crab to take care of it, if not, no point.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Been reading quite a bit on the clowns, but most of the info is "matter of fact" type stuff and not "I suggest you do this because ...". 

I'm looking for advice from people who've tried and had success/failure...... e.g. this didn't work so i tried this... or watch out for this ... etc.

Kweli, I like what you did with the black and orange clowns. Don't think I'll be able to find a matched pair, so let me know how to improve the odds. Pick small ones? pick one larger? introduce at same time (I think this is the way to go)? where to buy (you still suggest Hubert)? How much did you pay?

As for the Anemone, you've good a good point about possibly having all the action at the back of the tank. Been doing a lot of reading on anemones as well... and everyone says that they will do whatever they want so don't try to move them ...... I Refuse to accept this. I know it's just a matter of creating a better location for them to move into. I simply added a powerhead and the anemone started leaning over and away from the light (further back), I turned off the PH and it bent up towards the light (top)... Obviously, it is a factor of flow, light, place to attach, etc. Problem is I don't have enough experience on manipulating these and run the possiblity of having it move to a worse location. Not to mention, stress the hell out of it and have a bigger problem. The fish is already pissed at me... I can see it in his eyes (lol)

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. Give me some of your thoughts. Should I start a new thread on "How to make an anemone move to a better location"


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

you are right about anemone and its placement being with regards to food, lighting, flow and ... . 

there are alot of scientific papers on anemones, and you can change where they are, we just dont understand it fully, I have posted many papers on thread anemone which you can read.

from the pic. it looks like your anemone is not geting rnough light, increase lighting and it will go lower.

My anemones hide under rock and only hae some part of tenticles out due to light, if I turn it off, they will climb to top.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

I had a great anemone article that I cant find now (of course)

Basically they move anytime they want a more favourable environment. It could be anything from lighting, flow, food, to water quality. A anemone that is always moving is a good sign of a tank that is just not up to par for anemone standards.

Typically they like to keep their 'foot' in the shade and expand into the light. I dont have one, so i cant help you... Ive just done alot of reading on them

As for the clowns. Hubert had a tank full of juvenile black perculas (false) and another tank filled with orange ones. The smaller one will become a male and remain smaller then the larger (female.)

I think the orange ones were 25 dollars and the black ones are 40 dollars. Your paying premium for a aquacultured clown that is disease/pest free.

I would buy clowns that are in a group... this way they havent sex'ed yet. I would also introduce them at the same time so that one of them doesnt create a 'territory' that it wont let the other one into. The last tip would be the size difference I mentioned.

Theres even some threads out there were people printed a picture of a clown in an anemone and it got their clowns to move to the anemone. Placebo effect? Who knows.. but wont hurt to try


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

My clowns


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Anemone :http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17670


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Nice picture of the clowns. The way it was posted made me think of the clowns I already have ... my kids (lol)

Big Ray, I already checked out the stuff you sent me. I was after some suggestions on techniques to try and gently persuade the anemone to go to the top. You mentioned more light and that it would go to the bottom. I want it to come to the top. Maybe I should lower the light for a few days until it comes up? .. or maybe direct the water flow in a different direction (towards or away?) ? Does it need a particular rock structure or a way to go back up? 

See pictures. The original location is perfect. The only reason it moved was because I was handling the rock it was on to make room for the fish (stupid, stupid stupid!!!). It then moved under the same rock and hasn't moved since (see picture of it moving.... kinda cool). Now it extends and receeds from the back. I can live with this, but it wouldn't really be ideal for a hosting scenario, which is my next step.

I can try little things every day (I have enough patience), just need a game plan.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

yea long tenticle anemones like to bury their foot in sand or between rocks or ... 

we dont know why they do certain things, so trial and error is the only option lol

I think it looks fine the place it is now.


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## aquanutt (Aug 27, 2010)

Kweli said:


> My clowns


What a cute pair...
My clown is living solo at this moment, just got him last week, just a baby he is no more then 1" in length.

cheers


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm learning quickly that the difficult stuff tends to be more of a trial and error, with science being used only to narrow the trials.

I actually don't mind the anemone where it is, but the not so distant future addition of clowns makes me want it in front. If the anemone ends up hosting the clowns (fingers crossed), back of the tank is not a good spot.


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

This hobby... while its came a long way... is still pretty premature.

Like you have discovered, alot of it is "he said, she said" with different personal experiences. I typically do alot of reading and forum surfing (nano-reef, reefcentral) and get as many tips/tricks as I can and formulate my own action plan. 

You wont be able to find a definitive answer on any of the following:
Skimmers, ICH, Deep Sand Beds. 
Seems like everyone has a different experience/preference on the above

One thing is for sure... a cool reef tank is the center of attention for new guests = )


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Funny you mentioned skimmers, I checked any and all opinions and could not make a case for either side. Did notice that more were pro than against. Doesn't tell you which side the smart ones are on though. I went with the 
"use it cause it can't hurt" approach; not cost effective, but less second-guesssing.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Kweli said:


> This hobby... while its came a long way... is still pretty premature.
> 
> Like you have discovered, alot of it is "he said, she said" with different personal experiences. I typically do alot of reading and forum surfing (nano-reef, reefcentral) and get as many tips/tricks as I can and formulate my own action plan.
> 
> ...


this is what a skimmer does :
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/fm/feature/index.php

there are no debates on what a skimmer does ...

same goes for DSB.

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

ppl can argue and debate about science all they want ... science stands at the end .


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

I wasnt stating that no one knew what they did

I was stating that people have different opinions and prefences of them when it comes to this hobby.

Some people sware by them, and some people avoid them like the plague

I have a skimmer myself..


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Kweli said:


> I wasnt stating that no one knew what they did
> 
> I was stating that people have different opinions and prefences of them when it comes to this hobby.
> 
> ...


no I understand what you mean 

but most of those arguments come out of ppl who dont have enough knowledge or cant afford a skimmer OR have been running skimmer-less set up for a while and just wont let go of their old views 

now TYPE and make of skimmer is debatable, of course.

Alot are misunderstood in this Hobby ! you see ppl posting that they did such and such, and no downsides. next post "I have algea ISsues" wellllllll probably the such and such caused your algea and that person spoke too fast about saying no downsides  (not referring to anyone in particular, just general )


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm with Kweli regarding the usage, not the science.

Big Ray, you are absolutely correct about people believing what they want to justify their own actions. In my case, the protein skimmer made sense to have, but was it justified? Probably never find out. I might do things to compensate for its absense, but that doesn't mean it is ineffective. As I said earlier, I went with the probably could run without one, but why take a chance approach. I can see you are well read and appreciate all the literature you reference. Please keep them coming. I still haven't found a good article on the effect of nitrates.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> I'm with Kweli regarding the usage, not the science.
> 
> Big Ray, you are absolutely correct about people believing what they want to justify their own actions. In my case, the protein skimmer made sense to have, but was it justified? Probably never find out. I might do things to compensate for its absense, but that doesn't mean it is ineffective. As I said earlier, I went with the probably could run without one, but why take a chance approach. I can see you are well read and appreciate all the literature you reference. Please keep them coming. I still haven't found a good article on the effect of nitrates.


search for Randy Holmes farley articles on google, every single one is amazing full of info.

I wont comment on skimmer.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks for the info. Very detailed articles and a lot of topics covered. Will be reading for days.


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