# A dream may finally come true - monitor alkalinity and many others



## notclear

Check this out:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...nge-how-aquarists-measure-aquarium-parameters

It "monitors" about all parameters in your reef tank!

The unit will cost under US$600 and the disc needs to be replaced every 3 months for the cost under US$35 each. Very affordable in my view. And according to their facebook page, the monitor will be available in the US early next year! This thing may sell like hotcakes.


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## Taipan

Excellent! Looking forward to this.


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## explor3r

Very interesting I would like to get one


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## Steel_Wind

I certainly will be inclined to get one, although all we have right now is a lot of smoke and light. Accuracy of the monitor is a complete unknown. What we have sounds cool as hell, but this is not yet out in the wild and no 3rd party asessments have been released. It might be the coolest gadget ever which changes Reefkeeping forever. And maybe not, too.

As well, it looks like the design team is quote enamored with using IP and licensing in order to integrate this with a controller only on their terms. While partnering with Apex seems a natural -- don't be so sure. 

I hope they release by March, 2014.
__________________
.Robert


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## Flexin5

thats sweet. i could sit my butt on my sofa and check params. i'd buy one after i see a few reviews. if you think about it, if it starts at under $600, quality test kits will run you about half of that anyway; and they expire.


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## CanadaCorals.com

I was talking with Shaun @ CRS about the Vertex Cerebra controller having the ability to do the same and he said they are notorious for being inaccurate because they constantly need to be calibrated all the time.


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## fury165

Remains to be seen if it can live up to the hype. I don't know if you guys ever saw this other subscription based AIO monitor which was also supposed to measure PAR amongst other things http://www.seneye.com/store/seneye-reef.html. From the reviews i read it didn't live up to promises


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## Steel_Wind

The Vertex is based on very different technologies. There is nothing like the Mindstream available in any market for *any* application. 

Sensor probes have difficulties due to the technology upon which they are based. The Mindstream does not share any of those technologies other than a temperature sensor in the unit itself.

That doesn't mean that the Mindstream won't have its own issues. My guess is that it will have many. But those issues don't arise for any of the same reasons the Vertex may have its own issues.


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## sig

"....aquarium parameters such as pH, dKH, ammonia, NO2, NO3, Ca, Mg, salinity, oxygen, and temperature ... yeah, basically everything you'd ever test for. And it does this without test reagents or strips, and transmits data wirelessly to boot!"

1) first lie in red- it does not require "strips" - disc (strips) needs to be replaced every 3 months for the cost under US$35 each.

2) how often do you test for ammonia, NO2, NO3?

3) do you care about oxygen? Never see anybody wants to test (IMO)

4) why should you care about salinity, when most of as have ATO systems and looks like never had a problems

5) dKh, Calcium do required, but not sure about magnesium. It always easier to adjust calcium <> alkalinity, than 3 parameters. many tanks gone to the heaven as result of these adjustments


6) PH - was monitoring, until got sick and tiered from calibrating this crap every month. PH is way to subjective and naturally changes throughout the day. Many guys run in the problems by trying to chase PH. Survived perfectly without PH monitoring for 2 years


7) Temperature - perfectly happy with Digital Aquatics for the last 5 years ( should change temp. probe every 1.5 year for $25)

I personally do not see any positive sides to spend money and I assume it will be the same as the crappy Hanna checkers. Just IMO./

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## notclear

For sps dominant tanks, if this can monitor ca, alk, and mag continuously, this for sure will attract a lot of people to buy it. These 3 parameters are really important for a successful sps tank.


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## sig

notclear said:


> For sps dominant tanks, if this can monitor ca, alk, and mag continuously, this for sure will attract a lot of people to buy it. These 3 parameters are really important for a successful sps tank.


I am just wondering how you have/run this beautiful tank for years without this device 

I assume my friend, it is the fun to do manual testing sometimes 

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## notclear

Initially I tested ca, alk, mg, and po4 once every week and it is time consuming. Now I test probably once a month. But I still think if it can monitor those 3 important parameters, it would be a great help.


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## Flexin5

but sig, say if your running a sps dominated tank, being able to see if there's a drop in cal or alk you can adjust it on the fly; add 3 colonies of acros and then you can just simply look at the continous readouts and adjust from there, no need to test all the time. i guess it would be a good fit if you were dosing. 

like many things in this hobby it'll be useful so some, not so much to others.


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## Steel_Wind

If the Mindstream is as good as we imagine it to be (I say _*imagine*_ as we have essentially no hard data on it at all) then one can just as easily imagine some majorly cool programing routines, a kick-ass out of the box Apex module and 3 dosing pumps. Then you just copy+paste some *cool code* and POOF: perfectly stable 2 part plus Mag (for $1,000). Hard corals growing like heads of lettuce, peeking above the water line in a week!

Got to love a hobby that treats you like the Easiest. Mark. Ever.


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## notclear

Here is some update

http://reefbuilders.com/2013/12/09/mindstream-oxygen/

I don't know how many of you monitor this dissolved oxygen parameter, but not me. May be good to know, esp. if you have many large fish in the tank.


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## Flameangel

Of all the 12 water parameters,no PO4.


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## mistersprinkles

That tank is, if I may dust off an old chestnut, Gangbusters.


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## notclear

Update from Mindstream's Facebook page few days ago:

***********************

We thank you all for your continued interest in the Mindstream Monitoring System, and wanted to update you on our development.

We’ve had our monitor working in our own fresh and salt-water tanks for the last 18 months. Most of our initial test focus has been on saltwater systems. Our freshwater aquarium test research is catching up but may not be ready at the same time as saltwater sensor discs.
We have been embarking on a very detailed testing plan developed by our PHD Chemist, University professor and co-founder Giuseppe Petrucci.

Dr. Petrucci, along with our other founder Jim Clark, are currently refining the algorithms to assure the best possible accuracy throughout the 90 day life of the chemical sensor disc.

As you've seen in our postings, the technology is very sensitive, so much so that the daily changes in CO2 and O2 can be seen as a result of the photosynthesis changes between night and day.
We have also just prototyped a new Calcium sensor that has 6 times more fluorescence gain which will make calibration of our monitors simpler in production. This new sensor justified a delay in launch given the benefits it provides.

Our testing also includes assuring that the latest generation of aquarium lighting has no impact on the light sensitive sensor foils. We are also testing for the most common aquarium additives even when doses far exceed recommended levels. Fluorescence sensor corrections for temperature, time and pH are also underway. 
We will be testing for adverse storage and shipping conditions, (high heat and extreme cold) and determining the shelf life of our chemical discs. These are just some of the adverse conditions we’ll be operating under. The adverse conditions will be in test chambers so as not to endanger any aquatic life. Initial indications are that we will not be able to permit freezing of the sensor discs without some damage.

Throughout our testing plan, we’ll be verifying our results with an independent laboratory.

Our goal is to provide the most accurate, reliable and economical method for determining the chemical content of any aquarium water environment. We are very pleased with how our development is progressing stay tuned for future updates! Thank you for your patience our continued testing will result in an even better product!

**************************


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## notclear

One step closer to reality, not just a dream. From their comments:

"Typical calcium trace in our tank showing about 7 weeks of monitoring. We triggered a Ca2+ precipitation event (on purpose, of course) early on and then we see the gradual consumption of Ca2+ over time, as well as the shorter term fluctuati...ons in Ca2+ due to water evaporation and top-off, as well as the occasional addition of Ca2+ supplement. We’ve been trying to maintain the Ca2+ at a high level, in part, to promote our coral growth and also to test the resolution of our sensor at these relatively high Ca2+ levels.
The absolute accuracy will depend on the specific type of sensor (for example, Ca2+ or pH or dissolved O2). Nonetheless, estimates of the accuracy for some of our existing sensors on the Rev 2 Mindstream Aquarium Monitor include better than 10 ppm for Ca (at a level of 400 ppm ) and 0.1 pH units at a pH of 8.2. Please keep in mind that these are only initial estimates and that we are continually evaluating and improving our measurement capabilities for these and other sensors."


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## notclear

I have been selected to participate in one of thier focus groups.

On their face book page:

"Based upon the overwhelming response we received regarding in-person focus groups in Miami and Dallas, we have decided to broaden our geography and invite our supporters and aquarium hobbyists nationwide to help bring the MindStream water monitoring system to market. We are looking for experienced and knowledgeable saltwater and freshwater aquarium enthusiasts who care for their own tanks to participate in online focus groups on Monday or Tuesday evening, May 18 and 19. Participants will receive a cash incentive. For more information and to find out if you qualify, please e-mail [email protected]. And thanks!"

Actually they are having the focus groups on May 20 and May 21. Not sure if it is too late for you to apply now. But it is worth a try. According to the confirmation I received, they will mail a $50 cheque to me after the event.


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## twobytwo

notclear said:


> Actually they are having the focus groups on May 20 and May 21. Not sure if it is too late for you to apply now. But it is worth a try. According to the confirmation I received, they will mail a $50 cheque to me after the event.


Thanks notclear! Yep, I just emailed them... and got this response

We are looking for Aquarium Club members to participate in an online focus group about MindStream, a revolutionary new aquarium water monitoring system that will soon be available. Each focus group will last about 90 minutes, and participants will receive a $50 thank you check via mail following the focus group. If you feel that this would be a good opportunity for your members, could you please distribute the brief survey below and return to [email protected]. Timing is critical, so please contact me as soon as possible.

Many thanks,
Kim Reynolds
Consultant, Rossborough Associates

1. Name:

2. Mailing Address:

3. E-Mail Address:

4. Cell Phone Number (where you can be reached if needed during group):

5. Do you have access to a computer or notebook with a camera that you can use for the focus group? (Smart phones do not qualify.) ( ) YES ( ) NO

6. List the number and size of aquariums that you keep in your home:
( ) SALTWATER FISH ONLY (may include rock; no coral) SIZE(S):
( ) SALTWATER REEF SIZE(S):
( ) FRESHWATER (Set up cost including fish more than $1,000) SIZE(S):

8. Do you care for your aquarium(s)? ( ) YES ( ) NO

9. Do you belong to an aquarium club? ( ) YES ( ) NO

10. Annual Household Income: ( ) Under $50,000 ( ) $50,000 - $100,000 ( ) Over $100,000

11. Focus Group Timing (Select the times which you are able to participate)
Tuesday, May 19 ( ) 6:30 - 8:00pm ( ) 8:00 - 9:30pm
Wednesday, May 20 ( ) 6:30 - 8:00pm ( ) 8:00 - 9:30pm
Thursday, May 21 ( ) 6:30 - 8:00pm ( ) 8:00 - 9:30pm


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## sig

I always wonder why all these <>><><> ask for Annual Household Income?

for me somebody's knowledge about Name + Mailing Address + Household Income is possible future troubles

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## twobytwo

I did the focus group last night. If anyone has any questions I'll be happy to answer what was discussed. Seems like a pretty cool device.

Apparently the website goes live tomorrow and the product is planned to be out around Q4.


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## notclear

Cool! My focus group is tonight. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Marz

I am interested in this for sure.


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## notclear

Just finished with the focus group about 30 minutes ago.

Based on the questions and answers, it definitely measures the big three: ALK, CA, MG, and another 7 parameters (Potassium, Salinity, Temperature, pH, Ammonia, Oxygen, CO2). Phosphate may be the 11th one, not yet decided.

As for the replacement disk, I have the impression that it will need to be replaced every 30 days rather than the previously mentioned every 3 months.

Like the Eco Tech pump, the wet side (rotating disk) is attached using a magnet to the dry side (power pack). The magnet should be able to hold for glass with thickness of 3/4".


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## notclear

Here is their new web site:

http://www.mindstreamh2o.com/


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## Mikeylikes

replacement of disks every 30 days or 3 months sounds like a very expensive proposition.


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## notclear

Even with probes you need to replace them. Same as test kits.

It all comes down to price of each replacement disk.

One of the questions in the focus group last night was how much we as aquarists are willing to pay for a replacement disk every 30 days. I said ideally should be $10 and $15 max.

But can you believe it that the other 5 participants in the group said that they are willing to pay $30-$50!!!


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## arturo

notclear said:


> Even with probes you need to replace them. Same as test kits.
> 
> It all comes down to price of each replacement disk.
> 
> One of the questions in the focus group last night was how much we as aquarists are willing to pay for a replacement disk every 30 days. I said ideally should be $10 and $15 max.
> 
> But can you believe it that the other 5 participants in the group said that they are willing to pay $30-$50!!!


Are these people in the focus groups clueless to the power they hold!? haha $10-15 sounds more than reasonable.

Were there any updates on the apex integration? Alone, i think its a cool product, but id rather see a licensing deal with neptune systems - i would hate for it to turn out looking like seneye or something


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## notclear

We touched on the subject of Apex integration, but don't think it will be there on the initial release.


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## fesso clown

notclear said:


> . I said ideally should be $10 and $15 max.
> 
> But can you believe it that the other 5 participants in the group said that they are willing to pay $30-$50!!!


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## fesso clown

Hanna ALK refill agent is only $00.50 a test. It's really the only parameter I care about enough to test more than once a week.


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## notclear

Mindstream will be at MACNA Booth 2514! One step closer to reality.


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## notclear

Very expensive disc replacements! Now I am not sure whether I will buy this.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/859739753/mindstream-aquarium-monitor


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## silent1mezzo

If your video contains the following lines "Some of you may be asking, is this even possible? Is this real?" you're probably overreaching.

I'll believe it when I see it.


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## Taipan

*Mindstream Update - Kickstarter Campaign Launched.....*

Earliest Delivery Date: December 2015.....

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/859739753/mindstream-aquarium-monitor


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## CanadaCorals.com

We test alkalinity daily because so much can go wrong so fast with the coral density we have.

What scares me is how much trust we are putting into this to keep our tanks from crashing.

I will hold off on ordering these until we have some rock solid real world tests to prove its safe.

With all that said... very exciting product!!! lol


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## ruckuss

Anyone get in on this kickstarter?


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## notclear

I won't unless they reduce their estimated replacement disk price.


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## arturo

Did the price go up? I didn't think 30 every 3 months was that bad?


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## notclear

Way up! US$30-50 a month.


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## Diemaker

albert did you start testing this product?


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## notclear

No, the replacement disks are just too expensive. Say it is US$40 a disk, it is about $55 CAD with tax. Then shipping, etc. Just too much!


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## Taipan

*Top 10 Questions with Answers.......*

http://reefbuilders.com/2015/07/29/answers-top-10-questions-mindstream/


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## notclear

Replacement disk price won't go down anytime soon.

So I am now following another product which monitors alkalinity from Taiwan.


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## CanadaCorals.com

notclear said:


> Replacement disk price won't go down anytime soon.
> 
> So I am now following another product which monitors alkalinity from Taiwan.


Link?

Alkalinity is really what we need monitored often. Everything else can be tested every few weeks.


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## notclear

Bayinaung has a thread called sps tank automation in gtaa. The first post has the link.

It is diy but will be in production according to the poster.


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## rburns24

CanadaCorals.com said:


> Link?
> 
> Alkalinity is really what we need monitored often. Everything else can be tested every few weeks.


-
They use PH and CO2 to calculate alkalinity. Saw it on RC.
-


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## notclear

CanadaCorals.com said:


> Link?
> 
> Alkalinity is really what we need monitored often. Everything else can be tested every few weeks.


Here is the DIY link in RC:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2506713


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## nc208082

For a company that supposedly put alot of money and time into testing it, the fact it is on kick-starter to me is an issue, for a product this good and supposed to be this game changing why are they having trouble raising enough capital to bring there product out for a full release. I have seen a few projects come out successful from kick-starter but seen far too many that look great but just fall through. I will still be watching this but definitely wait a while before I drop some coin on this.
If they came out with a mini version that just read Alk or calcium and alk for a cheaper price I'd be throwing my money at this, But at the current price of those replacement discs I'll stick with my salifert and hanna kits for now.


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## rburns24

rburns24 said:


> -
> They use PH and CO2 to calculate alkalinity. Saw it on RC.
> -


-
They also use temperature and salinity.
-


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## notclear

Wondering whether shipping to Canada is free or not. Also as it is under $100 for the replacement disc, and if shipped by USPS, we may not need to pay tax and custom charge. Any one knows about that?


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## notclear

Also monitoring phosphate is most likely not going to happen.


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## notclear

From Mindstream Team:

Disc Pricing Update. We’ve heard your many comments and questions about disc pricing, so today we are announcing that the pricing for the monthly discs and related data services will be $34.95. This assumes an annual subscription with automatic disc delivery and automatic monthly debit payment. This is a discounted price from the price of individual discs, which will also be available for purchase on our Web site.


IMO, still too high.

For those attending MACNA, can you please check out what you see and comment here? Thanks.


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## CanadaCorals.com

Definitely going in the right direction. 

This may also be because they are not even close to meeting their goal on kickstarter.


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## notclear

I may consider it. I just need to sell more frags to fund this 

Waiting to see comments from MACNA attendees. 

On another note, they have indicated if they cannot reach the pledge goal, they will still go ahead with the project, only with delayed shipment date.


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## nc208082

notclear said:


> I may consider it. I just need to sell more frags to fund this
> 
> Waiting to see comments from MACNA attendees.
> 
> On another note, they have indicated if they cannot reach the pledge goal, they will still go ahead with the project, only with delayed shipment date.


For how long will it be delayed? I know part of the kickstarters point was to get real feedback from us to report any bugs and issues when using these in our home aquaria. Without these how long will it delay being released?

Also for the investors how confident are they going to continue to believe in putting money into this product if the company cant even make 300,000 in sales. Doesn't put a big boost of conifdence in the investment aspect if your product isnt getting the attention and amount of orders you described it would.

And 34.95 USD a month is a bit much. with our crappy exchange rate thats going to bring it up to about 50$ bucks a month, thats with our exchange rate and tax added. That makes the yearly subscription fee about 600$ CAD which is a bit much IMO. And if you choose to go the individual disc price that makes it even more.

I really like that this technology is now coming out, but just like LEDS I think its best to wait a while before jumping in. Alot of companies are waiting to see how this pans out and I think its only a matter of time before other manufacturers like Apex, Ecotech and DA start to produce something along these lines that works with their equipment and can communicate effectively.


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## notclear

No idea about the delay time. But you are right, if they can't further lower the price of the disc, even they manage to have this product manufactured, the future is not too bright as not too many people will buy it.


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