# (1st post) Cichlid beginner, Aurora water



## elmer

Hi,

I'm from Aurora. From government websites I think the water is from an aquifer. My tap water is pH 8.1.

I have a tank all established, here's what there is:
20G glass
Aquaclear 50
Petcetera power filter SF-1020
2" crushed/tumbled shell/coral substrate
large driftwood
american valisneria
moneywort
java fern
A sunken ship aquarium decoration

3 keyhole cichlid babies 1.5"
- these have been living there for 1.5 weeks
- active, feeding, showing every healthy indication

Two problems:
1. Ammonia is 0.25 ppm from the tap. After a water change with 5 gal dechlorinated water (using AquaPlus), I can detect a slight trace of ammonia. It's gone in 24 hours or less, but I wish it were never there. Water's otherwise fine - Nitrite 0, Nitrate 7.5ppm
2. pH 8.1 is high for keyholes.

I am getting into this hobby gradually. Couldn't wait to learn everything and perfect everything before buying anything, so, here I am.

I am considering lowering the pH gradually and adding cockatoo dwarf cichlids. Here is the plan - what do you think of it? This is without removing the fish.

1. Get a KH/GH test kit and start testing regularly.
2. Carefully remove most of the coral substrate, a small bucket each day - replace with laterite and/or flourite. I would probably leave a bit of the coral in to make sure pH changes are not too rapid.
3. Start using peat moss in the extra power filter (the Petcetera one).
4. Figure out some way to filter the fresh tap water through peat moss to reduce pH
5. Find some ammonia cancelling product to treat fresh tap water before water changes.
6. Possibly get a fertilization process CO2 injector. How much will that cost?
7. Start testing O2/CO2.

Another idea I had was to see if I can return the keyholes and switch everything to a Malawi or Tanganyika tank.


----------



## elmer

Other interesting thoughts
- leave things as they are and hope the keyholes will adjust
- get a couple more keyholes and keep it as a species tank
- add more rocky hiding places and try mixing these with a couple electric yellow lab - peaceful-ish, not a plant eater nor a digger

What I definitely don't want to do
- take them back and get mollys or platys or swordtails
- use pH down chemicals
- buy any more equipment over $80
- start over from scratch


----------



## Pablo

No keyholes for you buddy you have a freakin 20 Gallon.  

Ya the crushed coral was a bad idea.


----------



## moon

I would store the tap water in a barrel treat it with something like Amquel or Prime add an airstone and leave it for 24 hours. This should make the water safe. I have keyholes in my 29g tank and they are doing great. Good idea to change the substrate. I would not mix keyholes with yellow labs. Keyholes are very peaceful chiclids and will be intimidated by the labs. Your ph is OK for raising keyholes and Apistos. You need to reduce the hardness and ph for breeding these.


----------



## Pablo

.... (where's the oh for christ sakes emoticon)

Ok listen. Both of you.

You can not put keyholes in a 20G. Its too small long term. There's no wiggle room on that. a 29G is marginally acceptable for a pair but a 20 is not.

No doubt someone will pipe up and say how they kept an oscar in a 10 gallon and it was fine.

I know what I'm talking about.

Apistos are fine in that tank- alone. You don't mix dwarf SA cichlids in a tank that small you're just asking for it.

Who said anything about mixing yellow labs with keyholes?

You can't put yellow labs in a 20G anyways they get too big and are too boisterous.

In the tank the way it is right now, if you want cichlids, you can keep a breeding pair of archocentrus or Kribensis. (there are many more species options Im only listing beginner species).

If you want to give yourself a hard time going to something thats beyond your current skill level change the substrate and get a trio of Apistos (1m 2f). You'll have a hard time with them though.

Get the keyholes out. Take them to menagerie. Trade them for a pair of Cutteri

http://www.cichlid.org/Photos/SP01/Images/cutteri.jpg

Much more interesting fish that can actually live in your tank long term. 
Give them lots of caves


----------



## Pablo

you have a 20 G. You can't even do an african tank in that. Maybe a pair of Leleupi or something but nothing serious. The fact that you even considered mixing yellow labs there says you dont know what you're doing. Anyone who suggests Apistos to you at this stage also doesn't know what _they're _doing.

Also in a tank that size most of the suitable cichlid species will dig at your plants somewhat even if just by mistake by moving around. You can't mash every kind of setup and fish into a little 2 foot box. Make up your mind, pick one species, get a pair, and see how it works out.


----------



## moon

Pablo
I disagree. I have kept and bred keyholes many times over in 20g tanks. One of them even won best in class in one of the shows. You can easily keep 4 keyholes in a 20g untill they pair off. Then keep the pair and remove the others. These fish do not get any larger than 4in and should be fine in a 20g tank imho.


----------



## Pablo

Ya- but you know what you're doing. Keyholes are a slightly fragile fish. Hard to kill, easy to screw up. I don't feel that a beginner could safely maintain a pair of those in good health in a 20G tank.

I don't disagree with you. I feel that Keyholes do ideally require more space but you can get away with a 20G- the thing is that I don't like to suggest setups you can 'get away with' to noobs. I prefer rock solid setups with a lot of slippage room which I don't feel this provides. A pair of convicts can more easily tolerate mistakes on the part of the hobbyist and still spawn and be healthy and provide enjoyment whereas keyholes are easily messed up.

A difference of opinion perhaps but I still don't feel keyholes in any number let alone in a small tank are a good thing for a beginner.

You can put a new driver in a ford and he can get away with many more screw ups than in a ferrari. You make one mistake in the ferrari and its cut in half on a lamp post.


----------



## elmer

Pablo said:


> The fact that you even considered mixing yellow labs there says you dont know what you're doing.


No, it just means I'm not a naturalist. It's a myth that malawis get sick from too much protein. The miscommunication thing may be a problem, but providing lots of hiding places would help, as would having them grow up together from infancy. Anyway, I'm not really considering it that seriously, but your reaction helps put perspective on the rest of your comments.


----------



## elmer

Sorry, I don't mean to be combative. You did throw out some new ideas and I appreciate that. Thanks.


----------



## Pablo

elmer said:


> No, it just means I'm not a naturalist. It's a myth that malawis get sick from too much protein. The miscommunication thing may be a problem, but providing lots of hiding places would help, as would having them grow up together from infancy. Anyway, I'm not really considering it that seriously, but your reaction helps put perspective on the rest of your comments.


Where the hell did you get that information like seriously? 
No offense or anything but what you're saying here is about as true as saying Orange juice and milk will make you throw up if you drink them together.

The tank is too small to mix ANY two species of cichlid. Even in a much larger tank its very difficult to mix new and old world cichlids. There are new world cichlids that meld reasonably into an african tank like convicts but even they are never happy and always look like a confused american in the middle of a chinese market.

Don't take this the wrong way- but what you're doing here is like being in driving school and when the instructor tells you you're screwing up you say "No I'm not!"

I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talkin about there dude


----------



## elmer

Well, good thing this is a forum and not a school class.

There are plenty of places where "protein causes malawi bloat" is claimed to be a myth. Here is one:
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=27706

I have to agree with you though, any unorthodox mixing should be done in a large tank. Sorry I even mentioned adding other species.

I am going to set about carefully and gradually improving the tank to perfect conditions over a period of months.

I do have small experience with non-cichlids, and am a fast learner, obsessive researcher, and a talented analyst. Although, I do tend to take risks. It's supposed to be fun, after all. I kept the crushed coral thinking that I would keep a stable pH with it and let them adapt. Later I changed my mind and decided to work towards ideal conditions slowly. The first step will be getting rid of that coral.

From a lot of observation, I am starting to think I have two males and a female. Once these cichlids hit puberty or whatever you call it, I may need to trade one in. Eventually I may decide to get a bigger tank. But I am much too optimistic to give up and trade them in for dwarfs right away.


----------



## Pablo

elmer said:


> Well, good thing this is a forum and not a school class.
> 
> There are plenty of places where "protein causes malawi bloat" is claimed to be a myth. Here is one:
> http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=27706
> 
> I have to agree with you though, any unorthodox mixing should be done in a large tank. Sorry I even mentioned adding other species.
> 
> I am going to set about carefully and gradually improving the tank to perfect conditions over a period of months.
> 
> I do have small experience with non-cichlids, and am a fast learner, obsessive researcher, and a talented analyst. Although, I do tend to take risks. It's supposed to be fun, after all. I kept the crushed coral thinking that I would keep a stable pH with it and let them adapt. Later I changed my mind and decided to work towards ideal conditions slowly. The first step will be getting rid of that coral.
> 
> From a lot of observation, I am starting to think I have two males and a female. Once these cichlids hit puberty or whatever you call it, I may need to trade one in. Eventually I may decide to get a bigger tank. But I am much too optimistic to give up and trade them in for dwarfs right away.


They are dwarves 

Anything under five or six inches TL that's SA is considered dwarf.

##There are plenty of places where "protein causes malawi bloat" is claimed to be a myth. Here is one:
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=27706##

That IS a myth. What causes the bloat is the wrong kind of protein, from low quality sources, like gluten, and more than anything else, food that expands in their gut.

Malawi bloat is species subjective also. For example:

Yellow labs are very difficult to bloat, but are malawi mbuna. They enjoy a high level of animal protein balanced with an omnivorous diet. You can pretty much feed them the same as you would your keyholes and not have a problem.

Pseudotropheus acei on the other hand, though also a mbuna, require a lower level of animal protein and handle glutens and animal fats poorly. They also handle food that expands poorly. These fish need to be fed a vegetable matter heavy diet.

etc etc etc

Basically if you're looking to keep the pH stable what you want to do is do frequent water changes to keep the kH (carbonate hardness) over five or six points. This way you get stable pH without increasing your gH like you are with crushed coral.


----------



## ontariobetta

Hey 
I'm from Holland Landing, and I'm pretty sure we have the same water- or close to it. So I can tell you right now the GH and KH= its around 12.


----------



## elmer

ontariobetta said:


> Hey
> I'm from Holland Landing, and I'm pretty sure we have the same water- or close to it. So I can tell you right now the GH and KH= its around 12.


That's about what my tank water is right now.


----------



## elmer

I tried running a filter with a bag of pure peat moss to my 5 gallon bucket for two days. This changes the tap water to pH 7.8, kH=6dH, GH=6dH. I'm thinking of adding some of this in with my water changes once I get the coral out. (I am getting it out bit by bit, trying not to disturb things too much).


----------



## Sassybutterfly

Where did you get your peat moss?



elmer said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm from Aurora. From government websites I think the water is from an aquifer. My tap water is pH 8.1.
> 
> I have a tank all established, here's what there is:
> 20G glass
> Aquaclear 50
> Petcetera power filter SF-1020
> 2" crushed/tumbled shell/coral substrate
> large driftwood
> american valisneria
> moneywort
> java fern
> A sunken ship aquarium decoration
> 
> 3 keyhole cichlid babies 1.5"
> - these have been living there for 1.5 weeks
> - active, feeding, showing every healthy indication
> 
> Two problems:
> 1. Ammonia is 0.25 ppm from the tap. After a water change with 5 gal dechlorinated water (using AquaPlus), I can detect a slight trace of ammonia. It's gone in 24 hours or less, but I wish it were never there. Water's otherwise fine - Nitrite 0, Nitrate 7.5ppm
> 2. pH 8.1 is high for keyholes.
> 
> I am getting into this hobby gradually. Couldn't wait to learn everything and perfect everything before buying anything, so, here I am.
> 
> I am considering lowering the pH gradually and adding cockatoo dwarf cichlids. Here is the plan - what do you think of it? This is without removing the fish.
> 
> 1. Get a KH/GH test kit and start testing regularly.
> 2. Carefully remove most of the coral substrate, a small bucket each day - replace with laterite and/or flourite. I would probably leave a bit of the coral in to make sure pH changes are not too rapid.
> 3. Start using peat moss in the extra power filter (the Petcetera one).
> 4. Figure out some way to filter the fresh tap water through peat moss to reduce pH
> 5. Find some ammonia cancelling product to treat fresh tap water before water changes.
> 6. Possibly get a fertilization process CO2 injector. How much will that cost?
> 7. Start testing O2/CO2.
> 
> Another idea I had was to see if I can return the keyholes and switch everything to a Malawi or Tanganyika tank.


----------



## elmer

Sassybutterfly said:


> Where did you get your peat moss?


Well, it was a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I got it from Home Depot. Huge bag, and only used a few handfuls. Ended up not using it with the aquarium. Tank settled down to 7.9 or so on it's own once I got rid of the coral. Many many changes later, cichlids still doing great but sold one of them and upgraded to 35 gal with lots of plants.


----------



## Sassybutterfly

I am having a high PH problem with my tanks right now. I live in Aurora also.
Thanks for the information.


----------



## twoheadedfish

"07-29-2007, 10:28 AM"

lol, way to dig the archives. that's resourceful.


----------



## lili

elmer said:


> Hi,
> 
> .....1. Ammonia is 0.25 ppm from the tap. .....


Use Prime. I think it's better if you have amonia in tap water ... like I do.
L


----------



## Mr Cogburn

*the Ford comment*

Hey there Pablo,
I don't like your comment about making errors in a Ford. I have wrapped a few F-150'S around tree's it's real easy.

Brewster


----------



## ameekplec.

Mr Cogburn said:


> Hey there Pablo,
> I don't like your comment about making errors in a Ford. I have wrapped a few F-150'S around tree's it's real easy.
> 
> Brewster


Don't worry about Pablo, he's gone already 

Don't ask


----------

