# Planted tank plan needed



## redfishbluefish

Hi, I have not kept more than a few bettas and, when I was a kid, guppies. But I intend to start a planted tank. I am looking for a used tank of 50-90 gallons. I hope the plants will be as important as the fish. And I only really intend to keep small ones, perhaps neon tetras. I read a few articles but will need guidance, as it is clearly a complicated endeavor. All opinions and help will be appreciated.  I was hoping that the fish waste would fertilize the plants and the plants would balance the fish needs, but see that a truly low maintenance tank is not compatible with plants.


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## Zebrapl3co

If you're new to this, then I think you're jump a bit ahead of yourself. Depending on your expectation of a planted tank. Fish waste won't be enough. If you are thinking about a few plants, then that might work for you. Otherwise, you're already jumping into the intermediate to advance level.
There are so many ways you can approach a planted that it's difficult to suggest a starting point.
But if going no fert is your thing, then you might want to read up on Diana Walstead's book.
http://www.amazon.com/Ecology-Planted-Aquarium-Practical-Scientific/dp/0967377315/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Otherwise, you'll have to start thinking about CO2, fertilizers, correct lighting and the correct substrate.

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## redfishbluefish

Thanks for the link -- I will read it for sure. Yes, I have a lot to learn, but read up a bit on this board before starting to look for a tank. So I fully expected to have unobtrusive CO2 injection, preferably with a reactor and a solenoid switch, and to add micro- and macro-nutrients (which I gather is okay if somewhat in excess of what is minimally needed. I am hoping to avoid the super-high maintenance of constant testing, which is the burden/joy of salt water tanks, I gather. Yet I am missing a lot of the basic as well as the advance knowledge. (Really simple things, like: if I buy a used fish tank with algae on the glass, how do I clean it off--razor blades, or is there a non-toxic product that will makes it easier? And how do you treat and cycle water without spilling it?) My ignorance is indeed vast, but I gather that plants like to have their root systems undisturbed. And I do not expect much from the local pet-fish store, so I hope to find a mentor. I would even consider a paid mentor at first.


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## ubr0ke

I could help you out..no money needed..

just pm me with whatever questions you have.


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## iBetta

same here!  this is what this forum is famous!  tons of super nice hobbyist!  I can also try to answer your questions (and would be glad to!) though i just started really getting into planted tanks last year lol, so just please keep that in mind XD.


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## redfishbluefish

*Thank you IBetta and Ub0ke!*

Thanks to you both. I will try to read up ASAP, but want to start by buying a used display tank in the 40-75g range. Someone posted a used 41-gallon Fluval Osaka curved glass tank with light and stand for $200 here. An alternative posting is a 48-gallon tank with glass stand for $70. Both badly need cleaning. Do both/either strike you as a reasonable option(s)? I don't like either stand, but would consider using them if they hid clutter and/or made the process of water cycling easier. The tank would not be near a drain or water source, and spills on the new wood floor are not an option. Do folks keep a small tank or vessel below, hidden inside the stand? Do they let tap water sit before adding or subtracting it during cycling (and if so, where) or treat it with an additive and use it immediately? Also, scraping the sides with razor blades sounds tedious, but I would hate to use any chemical that would leave a residue. Is there a tank-cleaning thread here?


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## iBetta

well first off, stands don't really help in water cycling at all, but some people put a smaller tank under the bigger one on the stand (called a sump). simply put, its really a do-it-yourself (DIY) filter/pump where you combine mechanical (pumps) and biological filters (bacteria that reside on those bio/round plastic balls) with carbon, filter media etc. A biological filter is essential as they will convert chemicals toxic to fish like ammonia into nitrates which are less harmful to fish and other livestock(but still deadly if in huge amounts!) So I can't really say which is better, but both stands could house a sump or any maintenance stuff that you need to put there.

secondly, cycling the water is a process whereby you establish a population of those "biological filter/media" bacteria in your tank. they reside in the substrate like sand/pebbles and in the filter media (sponge etc), while some live on the surface of the water. they break down chemicals into less harmful materials. therefore, you can't put fish in your tank at first until those bacteria are present in your water because the fish waste will be highly toxic to the fish (as ammonia) and will kill them. I usually have a bucket of clean tap water that will let it sit for 2-3 days before I add it to the tank. reason being is that you want to condition it, letting some of the gases escape before adding the water into the tank. if you use reverse-osmosis (RO) water thats even better since it contains few ions, molecules etc but by no means is it neccessary. In order to quicken the rate of cycling a new tank (once you have done so in a tank, you won't need to do it again unless you do a 90-100% water change), people use the old filter media of other tanks and use those. You can also buy those bacteria populations starters from your local fish stores (lfs) as well. OR the ghetto way that some of us use if we have no used media, is to put a piece of lettuce or some fish food and let them break down naturally in the tank (while the lights, pumps are on etc). we would then have to use those ammonia/nitrates test kits to test their levels of ammonia to nitrates etc. 

---> cycling water relates to the nitrogen cycle: waste that release ammonia--->breaks down by bacteria--->nitrites---->breaks down by another type of bacteria----->nitrates

SO if i were to use the lettuce method and the lettuce starts to break down, I would get a spike of ammonia first from my test kit reading, then it will fall down near 0 as my nitrite lv will increase (other bacteria break ammonia into nitrite) then as when nitrites level being to fall near 0 and nitrates lv rise, you would have finished cycling because your tank has now all the dynitrifying bacteria it needs to complete the nitrogen cycle. 

With that said, when you introduce your fish, you should introduce little by little and feed little by little to prevent an overload of toxins that your current population of bacteria can't handle yet (because they need to grow too to balance the population of your fish and their wastes)

I'm sure I made some mistakes with my ways in explaining and by no means do I know everything, so feel free to correct me everyone, i'm learning too . but i havent had a fish die on me yet using these methods. Oh i don't use the test kits btw.....XD

as for cleaning tanks, thoser algae are fairly easy to clean off, no chemicals needed. I use a fine scrub with fine bristles (fine enough not to scratch the glass) or those sponges to you get to wash dishes or toilets and i just wet the glass with water and scrub them off. takes a few minutes if you apply some force 

Sorry for the load of info, hope it was helpful


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## Zebrapl3co

Using lectuse or fish food is an odd way to startup a tank. Just keep in mind that by using decay to start your cycle, you may be inviting more than just the beneficial bacteria into your tank. Since the main point is to use the by product ammonia, you might be better off just purchasing a bottle of ammonia instead. This way, you get to control the amount of ammonia in your tank. Waiting for the decay to happen produce unexpected amount of ammonia not to mention that you can't really control when and how many becaues that variable is dependent on the amount of bacteria and temperature of your tank. It gets really messy and alot of people had to deal with ick, fungus mouth, fin rot and other disease 1 month down the road because they can't stop the decaying process.

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## redfishbluefish

Very helpful advice -- thanks to you both. I was mixing up the changing of portion of the water with the prepping of the tank water for the plants and again for the fish. Cycling only refers to the latter, and primarily to sustainable nitrate levels then, while conditioning refers to chlorine levels in tap water. I fully expect to buy the proper microbes at a store for the first cycling; and perhaps add some extra when fish are finally introduced. What are they called: just 'ammonia bacteria'?
But for conditioning I had not even considered reverse-osmosis (RO) vs. off-gassing over 48 hours or more. (Hmm... I only used to let water sit for a day.) I read that plants like hard water, and suspect RO would strip out the minerals, so am surprised anyone with plants would favour it. Anyway, I hope to avoid RO and stick to only the equipment essential to a low-maintenance planted set up. I was not sure I would hide a small tank in the stand. Having just moved from a house to a condo, I wanted to avoid clutter.
Qs: What percentage of water do you change? Does one let the water sit for three days or can it can be treated with a product and used immediately? Is the product expensive, or sold under more than one name? 

Next choices / challenges after that are, I am guessing, so correct me if I am wrong: 
1. substrate and moss mesh 2. small auto-switched CO reactor 3. in-tank filter 4. plant species 5. micro-macro nutrients solution 6. extra light timing (it's already going in a well-lit spot) and 7. fish/shrimp choices. (Curious: Do serious planted tank folks abhor the sucker fish or snails that eat algae off the side of the tank for some reason? Is even a little algal growth a sign of failure?)


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## iBetta

That's a very good point Zebrapl3co, thanks for the advice!  Though I never had any incidents, but the method you proposed is definetely safer , sorry sorry!

I usually change 20-25% on a weekly basis. 

I noticed that you wanted to dosed some macro-micro/fertilizer solutions? Then you have to decide whether you want a low-maintenance or high-maintenance tank, because usually for low-maintenance, you won't need any fertilizers. Just from regular tap water and the wastes from shrimps or some small fish would be enough. I use RO water for low-maintenance tanks because they help to prevent algae growth .

When I first started my tanks, I would let my water sit for 2-3 days just to be sure, but some lfs owners told me that 24 hours would be fine . After I've run my tank (low maintenance) for a couple of months, I don't even let my water sit anymore (uh oh?) and I've had no problems for any of my shrimps (but they are hardy) nor my plants. I don't personally use any conditioning solutions or dechlorinator solutions and nothing bad has happened to so far. I believe that (if I remember from my aquatic plant class) too chlorine will make plant leaves turn yellow, so you can use that as an indicator.

In answering your questions:
1. Mosses (and most mosses eg. java, erect, flame, christmas/webbing) are very hardy and don't require high lighting to survive, though of course they would grow slower. If you are planning to have plants that have a lot of roots in general, that means that a great portion of their nutrient intake comes from the substrate. so choosing a good substrate like fluorite or eco-complete (that black ball-shaped soil) would take care of that. i usually either mix some of everything, or have different layers. fluorite at the bottom, eco-complete/fluval substrate, then a light layer of sand .

2. I can't really answer that question because usually I don't run C02 in low tech/maintenance tanks but some I make a do-it-yourself cheap C02 system, like a small bottle of yeast, and sugar-dissolved water with a tube). I let it run non-stop.

3. depending on the size and livestock in your tank, you need a different size filter/pump. a lot of filters for tanks have a pump included so you could just get a filter(with pump included) that hangs on the back of the tank (HOB). USUALLY (but there are some debates), people say that a pump that pumps water 10x the water capacity is neccessary for tanks with fish eg. you have a 10gallon tank, then you would need a pump that can pump 100 gallons per hour (gph). HOWEVER, if you are keeping shrimps, that is way too powerful, people who keep small fish and shrimps like the smallest, offering a weak-medium current as possible. So u'd have to use your own discretion, unless someone can offer you a concrete answer here on the forum.

4. different plants need different amounts/intensity of lighting. what you would want is first calculate how many watts/gallon you have in your tank with your lighting (divide the watts of the lights by the number of gallons you have). usually below 1-2watts/g is low light, 3-4watts/g some people consider medium-high, 5 and over is quite high. you can ask your local fish store which plants are low or high light-requiring plants because they are so many. All that i can say is that mosses like java, christmas, flame are low-requiring (of course they will do better with more light, but they will survive ) and most carpet plants are high-light. light intensity is also expressed by temperature (in Kelvins). freshwater plants do well with lights, bulbs in the 6500-6700K range.

6. relates to what kind of plants you want

7. for starters, I would first make sure that your plants are well-grown and wont die because shrimps like plants/mosses. some of the most hardy shrimps come from the caridina family (ie. cherry, fire reds, rilis, taiwanese yellow etc). stay away from crystal shrimps (CRS) because they need more specific conditions. as for fish, most fish will tend to eat shrimp fry, so i wouldn't recommend that unless that are really small fish like micro/mosquito rasboras. ive seen my adult guppies eat my shrimp fry...

I don't personally hate snails but some snails proliferate like crazy while some cant or are a lot harder (eg zebra snails). but most of them aren't that efficient at clearing algae (especially if you have a lot that grows at a fast rate) and you would need a lot of them. sucker fish (i assume you mean plecos) is not that preferred because they can get HUGE and some are very territorial. they have erratic movements which scare shrimps and small fish. though from personal experience i have never seen any of them eat my shrimps ( i still removed them though)

algae comes from nutrient imbalance, lighting conditions and C02 (lack of or too much). its likely that some will occur in low-maintenance tanks unless you can really balance everything out without C02, just with lighting and livestock. usually well-run tanks dont have much, and you can clean them off easily when you do your weekly water changes. another reason why people like to keep shrimps with plants if because they eat algae growing on plants and aquarium glass!


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## redfishbluefish

*Wow! Thanks!*

I was actually just wondering if I got the order of the steps ahead correct, but I love all the info you have given. I really like your suggested choice of fish [micro/mosquito rasboras] and mosses. I had hoped to include shrimp, but did not realise that shrimp ate algae -- cool -- or that the CO2 self-regulating device should help avoid algae blooms, so I'll just say no to snails and plecos, too. It is especially heartening to hear that one can cheat the 3-day water sitting, because a fifth or a quarter of a 40g tank is still 8-10g to change out every week. I understand why folks keep a tank under the tank and a pump to make this less cumbersome. Getting keener each day.


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## iBetta

whoops my bad! i write too much XD. people who use sumps also make water changes. it is generally good habit to make a water change every 1-2 weeks, because it still helps your water clean . that said, if it's a shrimp tank, and depending on the size of the sump to the ratio of the tank, some people do a water change between longer intervals up to a month. good luck! i wont write so much ahhahah


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## ubr0ke

Read this...

This article was wrote by Tom barr on non co2 tanks...follow his instructions and you wont have any issues starting a planted tank.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods


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## redfishbluefish

*Very interesting link -- thanks.*

Great technical analysis!  I am enjoying learning about the technical aspects of these type of planted tanks. I think it will be tough for me to go CO2-free, as a beginner. The very slow growth might be disheartening, too. But I was leaning that way, and planning to buy a simple non-solenoid CO2 system (about $40 vs. $120 for some reason) that is less than recommended for the tank size. If I set it on a timer to run fully during the day and not at all at night it should be good enough for moderate growth rates. I was going to buy a second-hand tank but missed out on one 40+g and found another larger one was leaky, so decided to stop looking for a bargain. I'll start instead with a new Marineland 30g half-moon tank (about $250), which is very open to natural light and has fab viewing angles, though I'll likely have to augment the LEDs that come with the stock tank. I had been reading about the correct substrates for no-dosing planted tanks, and found a much more convenient method of prepping the soil in this text you cited -- boiling off the fertilizer. Seems more sterile than days of soaking, sunning & rinsing --and faster for such a small amount. I am also leaning towards buying the smallest and most easily hid external, non-hanging heater and filter, to keep the small tank clean of hardware. So all in all, the planning is indeed proving more complex than anticipated but also, strangely, more fun due to this. It is rather like hacking old and new tech together -- but without a keyboard.


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