# Setup / Maintenance questions



## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

My setup so far, running for about 4 weeks:

65 gal tank w/ 60 lbs LR
1 1/2" aragonite substrate
Fluval 305 canister (rated 70gal)
Aquaclear 300 HOB filter
Prizm HOB protein skimmer
Coralife CF 2-65w white, 2-65w actinic

Inhabitants:
12" BT anemone
6" Heniouchus
Baby Clarkii
CUC (5 snails, 2 hermits)

At start nitrates were up >180ppm, but have now come down to around 70.

Questions:

1. Some say to gravel wash, but it is still new and establishing. Should I even touch it?
2. The HOB filter has a polyfilter, followed by carbon, then a rock to hold it down. I changed the carbon last night. Should I keep this setup? (see next question first)
3. The Fluval canister has sponges, then carbon, then carbon/biomedia, then biomedia. This was the default out of the box. Should I remove the carbon and replace it with prefilter rings?
4. Do I really need carbon when the parameters are stable (except for nitrates)? 
5. The live rock has a lot of bristle worms (more than 100). Is this out of control? Should I be concerned? A snail was dead yesterday, could they be responsible?
6. I have one 402 powerhead (~250gal/hr) in addition to the filtration units. Is this enough flow or should I add another?
7. The powerhead is at the top. Would it be better at the middle or bottom?
8. There is some red cyano algae building on the bottom rocks. Should I brush it or leave it for now? Putting my hand in stirs things up quite a bit and I'm sure stresses out the fish.
9. I have the actinics come on around 12pm, then whites at 1pm, whites off at 8pm, actinic off at 9pm. The moonlights are on from 9pm to 1am. Is this ok? I'd like to leave the moonlights on all night, any reason not to?

Got a net breeder last night. Plan to place it in the tank and put in some macro algae like chaeto or caullerpa to help with the nitrates. Does anyone have some they could share? I live in Woodbridge.

All feedback is appreaciated.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

hey, here is My opinion

1. Some say to gravel wash, but it is still new and establishing. Should I even touch it?
[dont touch it, let the bacteria build up, BUT currently your flow is low, so detritus will build up on it, increase flow.]

2. The HOB filter has a polyfilter, followed by carbon, then a rock to hold it down. I changed the carbon last night. Should I keep this setup? (see next question first)
[the sponge, will collect detritus, which will rot and cuase no3 to rise, wash it daily, or as often as possible under tap water]

3. The Fluval canister has sponges, then carbon, then carbon/biomedia, then biomedia. This was the default out of the box. Should I remove the carbon and replace it with prefilter rings?
[remove it, or wash the sponge as much as possible. causes no3 to be high.]

4. Do I really need carbon when the parameters are stable (except for nitrates)?
[carbon (GAC) removed organics from water column and helps lower No3. or lets less no3 to be made]

5. The live rock has a lot of bristle worms (more than 100). Is this out of control? Should I be concerned? A snail was dead yesterday, could they be responsible?
[snails are sensitive to salinity, PH, and .... bristle worms are fine IMO]

6. I have one 402 powerhead (~250gal/hr) in addition to the filtration units. Is this enough flow or should I add another?
[more flow = better, I have around 100 turns per hour in my tank.]

7. The powerhead is at the top. Would it be better at the middle or bottom?
[facing the surface is better so you get max surface aggitation, although make sure there are no dead spots, where detritus can build up.]

8. There is some red cyano algae building on the bottom rocks. Should I brush it or leave it for now? Putting my hand in stirs things up quite a bit and I'm sure stresses out the fish.
[brush, remove as much as you can, and the ret should be causght by sponges in filter, which needs to be washed after, then increse flow so cyano wont grow again.]

as for algea/cheato, have a power head blow water at it so it gets more flow, and also you can get another light to put of top of it. I cant help you with cheato, as too much mulm is accumulating over mine ad wont be good for your system. but dont buy it, Im sure someone will give u some (I find those ads on AP for $5 per bag of cheato ridiculous !!)


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## bioload (Oct 20, 2009)

1. At 1.5” I would vacuum to remove any waste that has settled. The bacteria would have colonized by not if your not reading any ammonia or nitrite.

2&3 I would remove or use 1 to run carbon. There is enough surface area in the live rock to break down ammonia and nitrite, and the filters would require regular cleaning as mentioned contributing to your nitrate.

4. I plan on running. Keeps the water clear. I’ll try to post some before and after pics of tank after adding carbon. Not entirely sure that it will impact you nitrates significantly

5. Not much experience with bristleworms so could not comment

6. I have two Sure-Flows in my 75 @ 2000 & 1600g/hr and a Koralia 4 @ 1400. This really depends on your inhabitants and rockwork. I find it important to have enough flow to keep waste suspended so that it can be removed by the filtration, but not too strong that it would negatively impact your livestock

7. Generally keep mine towards the back corners of the tank top and bottom crossing streams.

8. Try adding livestock that keep the bed moving.....but I don’t have any sand at the moment.

9. I’ve never had problems with moons on all night, but would depend on what one is using for moons 

I have a few varieties of caulerpa and chaeto if you can wait for the next prunning


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## caker_chris (Apr 22, 2010)

I would get rid of the sponge in the filter and get some filter floss from big als. Its really cheap and I find it traps more crap than the sponge does. However like Ray said it will cause your nitrates to rise if left in the tank, so I throw mine out twice a week sometimes three times a week.

Don't worry its so cheap you wont care. Plus if you have a big als point card its always free for me. I think it uses 400points or something with is nothing.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Im sure I have posted the info on what GAC does in seawater, it does NOT remove no3, although it removes organics which can break down to no3.

the higher the flow around live rock, the better it will work, the more aggregates which will be released from it which can be skimmed out to pull out nutrition and lastly, the more bacteria removed = the more produced !


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

The tally so far:

1. Conflicting info on gravel wash

2&3. Plan to use carbon in one filter only.
Clean sponges every day or 2. Tap water or tank water?

4. Always use carbon. How often to change (1/month)?

5. Bristle worms... jury is still out

6. Need more flow. So , what are my choices on PH, sweeping, soft, directional ... yikes !!

7. Point PH upwards, place at middle of LH and RH side

8. Cyano.... PITA (ok, everyone agrees)

9. OK to keep moonlights (blue) on all night.


Macro-algae. When's the next harvest? 

.... Almost there. YGAA (you guys are awesome .... I'm starting a new acronym)


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Gravel is your call 

if your flow is high enough that almost no detritus build up, then do not vaccum it, if detritus is building up, vacuum it.


wash sponge under tap water, wash it well. (NO SOAP) lol

as for flow, go with korallia power heads, not too expensive and good flow, get 2 K4s for your tank, either side pointing towards each other and up


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Settled on the PH - 2 Koralia 4's. Any suggestions on where to buy (all I know is BAs)?

Does it make sense to keep the HOB filter in addition to the canister? or use both for different purposes? .. what that may be I'm not sure. Rather have less clutter on the back.

Any advice on what media/placement in the filters?

Does the skimmer need to run 24/7 ... maybe 12hrs is enough?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Settled on the PH - 2 Koralia 4's. Any suggestions on where to buy (all I know is BAs)?
> 
> Does it make sense to keep the HOB filter in addition to the canister? or use both for different purposes? .. what that may be I'm not sure. Rather have less clutter on the back.
> 
> ...


Run skimmer full time, and skimm as wet as u can. (check salinity often to be sure not shifted) [it takes some time for the foam head on top of skimmer to build up, so turning it on and off wont be good]

K4s, look around for best price, BA u have to pay HST, other stores u can pay cash most likely 

as for filters, depends now lazy u are  lol

if u are lazy like me, keep only the HOB, with carbon in it. and that's it. (maybe GFO once in a while to lower algea). clean the sponge / floss often. canisters take longer to disconnect and wash and ....

but if you know you will get around cleaning the canister at least once a week, then keep only the canister.
HOB filter makes a little splashing noise I hate, canisters take longer to clean, so you gotta decide which is right for you 

your Live rock and Live sand are enough to filter your tank. so canister and HOB are only used for carbon /GFO placement.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

*1. Some say to gravel wash, but it is still new and establishing. Should I even touch it?*
i wouldn't dare touch it, as tossing around all that stuff under the sand will surely cause a nitrate spike/mini cycle and there goes all your sensitive inverts. once you get the flow right that will solve the detritus that may settle on the surface.

*2. The HOB filter has a polyfilter, followed by carbon, then a rock to hold it down. I changed the carbon last night. Should I keep this setup? (see next question first)*
these aquaclear hob filters aren't really all that great for saltwater.. i used to have one when i had goldfish and they required constant cleaning. for the carbon it's okay but for the pads, they collect detritus way too easy.

*3. The Fluval canister has sponges, then carbon, then carbon/biomedia, then biomedia. This was the default out of the box. Should I remove the carbon and replace it with prefilter rings?*
i ran a fluval on saltwater before and i found it wasn't all that effective. i cleaned it out every 2 weeks and it had so much mulm build-up that it was more of a hassle than beneficial. i ended up running only bio-rings and carbon with weekly mulm flushes.. ran it mostly for the carbon and the flow

*4. Do I really need carbon when the parameters are stable (except for nitrates)? *
carbon, along with all the reasons stated above also helps keep water from yellowing and absorbs odor. good thing to have but make sure it's high quality carbon with low ash and change routinely because it may leak phosphates.

*5. The live rock has a lot of bristle worms (more than 100). Is this out of control? Should I be concerned? A snail was dead yesterday, could they be responsible?*
how do you know there are 100s of bristle worms..? do they just come out and slither all over the place? usually they don't like light so you won't see them. i've got bristle worms in my refugium along with a few snails and they do just fine together and they do a great job stirring the sandbed and as a general cuc. the snail most likely died of other reasons, but bristle worms will quickly jump on the opportunity to devour it once it senses the minute scent of death. if you see a snail is dead it's best to remove it ASAP as it will foul your water really quickly. if you've got a weak stomach, hold your breath while removing because a dead snail wreaks!

*6. I have one 402 powerhead (~250gal/hr) in addition to the filtration units. Is this enough flow or should I add another?*
definitely need more flow; it will help with oxygenation, prevent deadspots and keep things suspended so they can get caught by the filters (which you can clean regularly)

*7. The powerhead is at the top. Would it be better at the middle or bottom?*
once you get more powerheads the placement should be your call on where you think there is little to no flow. ideally where all things tend to collect once all the other powerheads push it around. it's a good thing to make sure there is enough flow to move the surface of the water because this will help with the oxygen exchange.

*8. There is some red cyano algae building on the bottom rocks. Should I brush it or leave it for now? Putting my hand in stirs things up quite a bit and I'm sure stresses out the fish.*
remove it; when i had it i used to lift it off like a piece of carpet and collect it in a little tub. i would then mix it around to remove the bits of sand it was attached to and rinse it off with ro/di water to be added back to the tank later once all the cyano was gone

*9. I have the actinics come on around 12pm, then whites at 1pm, whites off at 8pm, actinic off at 9pm. The moonlights are on from 9pm to 1am. Is this ok? I'd like to leave the moonlights on all night, any reason not to?*
this is very conservative, which i guess you're trying to be as others have probably recommend you reduce your photo period. with moonlights you just have to look at your fish and see if it bothers them. try leaving the moonlights off for a few nights in a row (at the same time each night), turn off all the lights and after a bit watch the behaviour of your fish to see what they look like when they sleep. then when you run your moonlights days later, see if they exhibit those same patterns or if they are just swimming around like normal, that's when you'll have your answer. reason is, is because sometimes moonlights can be way too bright that fish have a hard time sleeping or miss the cue to sleep which stresses them out the following day. plus having darkness allows all the nightly creatures to come out and party (feed). moonlights on all night are strictly an aesthetic thing in my opinion, as it isn't bright enough to counter the pH shift during lights out. only plausible argument to moonlights is promotes nightly spawning rituals but i doubt you have anything in the tank that would spawn.. don't get me wrong it's great to have as a transition from actinics off to moonlights rather than actinics off straight to darkness.

as for powerheads; i know hydor koralia phased out the numbered powerheads (ie koralia 4, 3, 2, 1, and nano) and replaced them with higher efficiency evolution models unless you're talking about the controllable ones which are still around. the current evolution models are available in 750, 1050, and 1400 gph. i'm not sure how wide your tank is, but if it is 3 feet (36") then 2 of the koralia evo 750gph powerheads will move good water without going absolutely crazy and throwing your fish around. i once put a koralia 4 (1200gph) in my 3foot wide tank and it not only moved the sandbed to create bald spots but my fish was whipped away when they got close.. anyone would like to chime in on their own experience on this..


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

forgot to mention; how much skimmate is your skimmer producing? how long does it take to fill up half a cup, and what color is the skim.. those prizm skimmers are tough to get right for a beginner but once they get going it WILL (contrary to what people say..i've got video evidence of it producing really good skim ) produce good results. one tricky thing about it though is.. since you are sumpless and the water levels aren't stable due to evaporation etc it will require constant attention. if you have the deluxe edition that includes the surface skimmer cup i would quickly remove that as it is useless; use the skimmer with the cone insert to prevent fish from getting sucked in and that will work a lot better. make sure you set the bubble line to where the rubber O-ring is or above in order to produce a good skim (instructions recommend this too).

ohh also, i see you went with a clarkii clown! did your kids pick it out or was it your choice? would have figured you'd gone with ocellaris since they are the more classic 'nemo' clownfish. nonetheless clarkii's will easily take a bubble-tip anemone as host. good choice if that's what you were going for!



Big Ray said:


> too much mulm is accumulating over mine ad wont be good for your system


mulm is the powdery sandy stuff that tends to build up on the floor of a sump right? do you know of anything that will eat that stuff so manual cleanup wouldn't be necessary?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

those are most probably percipitation caco3, or just detritus, increase flow in sump so they dont get a chance to settle ...

by mulm I meant bacteria growth since I use Zeovit and algea doesnt grow no more, so its only there serving as a home for my pods .lol


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Love the detailed answers.

Summary, so far:

-No gravel washing.
-remove HOB filter
-run canister with sponge, carbon, and bio-media (since it is already there) with weekly rinsing
-I am bagging the fluval brand carbon right now. How much and how often?
-Bristle worms are ok. I see at least 15 on just one small piece of dead coral when the moonlights are on. Shine a flashlight and in they go. I've seen a couple around 3" long when extended
- Tank 48w12d24h. 2-750gph powerhead at opposite ends, midway pointed towards the top front should be a good starting poin
-I have 4 moonlights, 2 are not working and last night I taped up the other 2 for reduced lighting. Marblerye, how can you see fish behaviour when all lights are off?

Other stuff:

Right now the skimmer produces yellowish to brown foam. I've been experimenting with the flow setting, so not sure how much extration to aim for. At one point I filled the cup in a day (very watery and mostly clear) and now the cup fills halfway in about 3-4 days with darker stuff. Not sure what to aim for What do you mean by bubble line? Is it the transition between water column and where the bubbling starts in the bottom of the cup?


Dead snail was empty by the time I saw it and no smell, so put the shell back in the tank because it looks nice.


I bought 2 clarkiis which were tank bred and babies from the same batch mainly because of the anemone. I drip acclimated them and both were doing fine. The next morning I checked both before going out. When I got back I found one stuck to the intake of the powerhead. The powerhead was at the top and nowhere near where the fish should ever go. Didn't see any physical damage to the little guy so don't really know what happened. The other guy is doing great. I guess the lesson is not to buy small or baby fish.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

fish dont see red light, paint the flash light if u like and u can view the tank at night.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

since i thought your 65g tank was the 3foot, i'm rethinking whether 750gph x2 is enough. anyone have experience with a 4 footer in terms of flow that could offer their opinion?

protein skimmer; watery and clear isn't good. since many people here advise to skim wet, try to get a green/brown watery skim. the smellier the better. bubble line is in the water column where the O-ring is. instructions say adjust the flow so that the water level (where the bubbles form) are level to above that o-ring in the water channel. 

there was a post about modding the aquaclear hob filter to a refugium. if you can do that it would make the aquaclear into a mini refugium (but you have to add a light.. and cut up the filter all over the place). it basically will allow flow throught he macro-algae and then a light on top to promote growth.. if you're handy and willing to do it, it has worked for a lot of people. or you can do the netbreeder way either way it works out. it was just an idea if you wanted to use the hob filter instead of leaving it out well what i meant when i said view the fish behaviour when the lights were off is... leave the lights off for an hour or so; they go into their night-mode sleeping routine, then go with a flashlight and watch them. you can even dim the lights in the room a bit just to see, or if you've got a red light like ray mentioned that would work too. ideally you want darkness so they all sleep before you can observe them. i run moonlights until 12am and then it goes off until 8 in the morning that's when actinics come on but before when i ran the moonlights on all night i could tell it stressed the fish out because their colors appeared a bit faded the next day and they were kinda slow, and lost their appetite a bit. i've got 8-blue moonlights on my fixture which is way too bright so i removed 4 and only run 4 (2 on each side) which still gives a pretty good output. 

as for macro-algae; i didn't want to offer until i knew for sure i had some left over from my last harvest, which i do and will keep a light on it if you want it. i've only got one species though and it's caulerpa prolifera. if you did some reading up on this macro-algae it'll tell you that caulerpa is an invasive algae that will root itself into your liverock if it got into your display tank and was left unchecked. unless you want to add a lot of green in your tank like karen over at karensanemones.. you will want to make sure none of it gets out of the netbreeder. there have been talks about it going 'sexual' and disintegrating (aka holocarpy) into your water as a white chalky substance which would then foul up your tank so that's something to be wary of although i haven't had this problem. chaetomorpha is a safer macro-algae to keep since it doesn't root, less likeley to holocarpy and very few fish actually eat it however i can't seem to keep it well enough because of a few hermit crabs in my refugium; they like to cut it up as they crawl through it looking for food as if though they were in tall grass in a jungle... i tried to get them out but considering how many bristle worms i have in there that thought alone freaks me out.

i may not be able to meet up until early next week monday so if you still haven't got any by then you're more than welcome to have some/all.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

whoops sorry it's not caulerpa prolifera; it's actually caulerpa serrulata or as a lot of people like to call it, razor caulerpa or razor algae. found a pic of it on another forum i'll post it here so you know what it looks like;










if anyone else wants any just let me know.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks for the offer. Since you are in my neighbourhood, it makes it easier. Send me a pm for when and where you are able to meet up. In the meantime I'll look for some chaeto.

The netbreeded method sounds like a way too simple and easy to implement choice not to try it. Once I get a feel for the macro-algae I might convert my HOB filter. I now have 2 extra Aquaclear 300 HOBs I don't know what to do with.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Just to chime in a couple of points:

I'm not a fan of skimming wet - at most, in a week, you want to see a quarter of your cup filled with water and that water should be pretty dark and gross. The clearer it is, the less effective your skimmer is. You essentially want to see the bubble foam overflowing into the cup, not water itself (water invariably collects as well, as the bubbles still hold some water). This may mean lowering your water line/bubble line in the skimmer. This is essentially the line where below it is liquid, above it is bubbles. Your skimmer should build up the bubbles from that point to overflow into the cup, taking the crap with it. Skimming wet will work, but you chance changes in salinity and your skimmer won't be as effective. You want it to remove crap, not water.

Another point of contention that I have with some of the advice in this thread (and that I have read in other threads) is that the old school methods of filtration such as the use of foam or bioballs becomes a nitrate "factory".

Well, I won't go so far as to say I support the old school methods of filtration, but what they are is redundant, not so much harmful.

N03 is produced by bacteria breaking down ammonia and nitrite - without ammonia and nitrite, nitrate won't be produced. While yes, bioballs and foam inserts (etc.) will produce nitrate, they aren't producing anymore nitrate than would be produced in the tank already. The nitrate that is produced will also be circulated throughout the tank, again, to be consumed by the denitrifying bacteria in the live rock.

So why not use the old school methods? Well, using just live rock + good flow allows for the whole process to take place in one area (the liverock). Instead of the nitrate having to circulate throughout the tank again, the denitrifying bacteria is available right at the source making the whole process more efficient. This doesn't mean less nitrate is produced, just that it is taken up quicker in many instances. Using both forms of filtration (for example, liverock and bioballs) isn't necessarily harmful, it is just redundant and not necessary.

The one downside to using foam is that it eventually clogs up and need to be cleaned, otherwise the flow in the tank can/will be impacted negatively.

With the addition of a good skimmer, you can further deplete your nitrate by removing organics from the water flow before they have a chance to go through the whole nitrogen cycle.

I think it is important to understand why we use the filtration methods we do nowadays.

Hope this helps some!


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I've read so many different opinions on just about all topics that it makes you want to second guess every decision. Thankfully I consider myself of at least average intelligence that I can choose one. It seems like in most cases there are many paths to the same goal. I just want to reduce my trial and error phase and do what works for me (e.g. some like to do constant small maintenance chores and others favor fewer big ones .... different approach). You guys are perfect for letting me learn from your experience. Opinions on the other hand are sometimes funny when you get people on opposite sides of the fence.

Chris, I tend to favor your approach on the skimming. Makes me "feel" as though something is happening when I see absolute crap coming out as opposed to clearer stuff. I'll aim for something in between, aroung half cup every week.

Chris, I get your point about the external filtrations affect on nitrates, but you didn't really say if there was any benefit from using it. Redundancy though sometimes necessary has to have an addional benefit in the absence of risk..... i'm assuming the risk is low without it.

As far as the foam goes, right now this hobby is still new so I don't mind cleaning it out every couple of days. I'll wait and see how long it lasts then decide.

YGAA .... (has it caught on yet)


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

DAX, the most important part of reef tanks, is to have a methology/logic/way you want things to happen set in place, and then use your own logic to twick different things like amount of skimmate you get ! 
took me like a year to figure that out, but once you do, u will see the connection between different things ... and can fine tune your maintanance further.

chris is right about not needing the bio media in canister, its not really redundancy. biomedia in your canister will remove ammonia, and turn it into no3. no action is taken after this point ! (unless u got the matrix) your no3 just raises

Live rock has ability to convert ammonia to no3 and no3 to N2 gas which will leave the tank into atmosphere ! (and many other gasses which is outside the scope of this thread, let me knwo if u want links)

that's what makes it fun  and makes it a SYSTEM rather than an aquarium

cause each piece is working in conjunction to others and ... .


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks to you all, I'm pretty happy about the way things are going with my setup. My routines are getting established and my confidence level is rising.

I work at an automation company, so innovation and logic are how I approach all problems. DIY ideas are great but sometimes there's a balance between how much effort you put into something vs just shelling out a little extra cash for an existing product. When it comes to custom and you can't find something, or the price tag is simply ridiculous then it's a whole different story.

I'm looking into making my own LED lighting fixture but haven't been able to find out info on the actual LED requirments. i.e. intensity, spectrum, distribution, etc. If you have any information on this topic it might set me on my way quicker.

Oh yeah, back to the Fuge. I've been doing a little reading and want to setup one beside my tank, somewhat as another display. The two tanks will sit beside each other with the tops level and a powerhead/siphon tube moving water between them. It will have its own lighting, but other than that, I can't think of anything else. This tank can be the "planted" tank, with whatever else that makes sense to put in there. My existing tank is 24" high and has a spot beside it that is 12"x12". I don't feel comfortable building a tank, so is there anything available that might fit? Am I missing anything? should I consider anything else?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

LED : 
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1759758

all info u need is there. Im in the process of making a controller/LED/some other stuff as well, its not bad since Im an electrical engineer, and have access to all chip designing companies like TSMC and board makers lol $1500 for a controller ? LOL wait a month, I will post the whole board design here so everyone can make their own controllers lol . someone needs to stop these ppl from making such easy money  lol

about the other tank, how are you planning to do this ? think of when the power goes out what will happen ? if one of the pumps gets clogged and ... you need to make it flood proof.
this is what I did :

65G tank, overflow and 1.5"bulkhead, it drains into a 40 G sump with skimmer and ..., the return pump, has a T on it, and about 95% of water goes back to the 65G SPS tank., 5% goes to the second 25G seahorse tank, which is planted and contains seahorses, pipefish some shrimp and some soft corals and rics, and I have drilled the 25G with a half an inch bulkhead on top, so this pures back into the sump as well. (the 25G seahorse tank also contains a 6" DSB! for extra filteration)


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Big Ray, Ill buy your protype... 

20" please!!


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm an EE as well and had the same thought.... I don't mind spending money, but getting ripped off makes me inventive. Since you are already ahead on the design, i'll wait. Have you got a hold of the LEDs yet? Going to check out your link.

Currently your setup is way too advanced for me. Remember I'm barely 1 month in. I already thought about the flood issue. Still working out the details.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Ray, just browsed over the link you sent. Didn't realize you were going to build a driver as well....I was thinking of a simple on/off philosophy with lighting controls by switching the number/bank of LEDs....the rest would be in the strategic distribution of LEDS in the hood.

At what stage are you? I see that the driver design was complete. Are you building your own, or using the one in the post? I'm curious as to effectiveness of the controlled light output.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

well im designing the whole thing, gonna take a bit different path, looking for a all in one solutions controlling everything including lights.

the RC thread has ALOT of good info, 

I'm just at the planning stage/;designing the actual board. nice to see we have more EEs on board ., Hopefully you can review my design as well before I get it built. Give me another month or so ... Ive been too busy at work lately and havent spent enough time on it. 


just the LEDs, with a on and off is prety easy to assemble, u can even use a computer's power for that .. (tiger direct) and source for LEDs are mentioned on the DIY page here as well.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

This thread is going in a different direction, but .....

I am reading a lot into lighting to better understand the requirements of a reef and the traits of the different lighting systems. Don't like the idea of a degrading spectral output which is hard to track and requires constant replacement .... all the more reason for going LED.

In my case, since all I have is the one anemone and the rest is a FOWLR, I was thinking of getting an LED spot lamp for it and not having to change the bulbs on the CFL until they burn out..... at which point the *Big Ray *LED design should be perfected and cost effective ...

First of all, what do you think about the spot lamp idea ?
Second, where do i get a one? ... been looking but they all come up from distributers requiring bulk orders.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

haha, doable for sure  and the anemone will adjust itself to get enough light ... . No Idea where you can get it from though .. I have seen some at BA ..

but regarding waiting for CFL bulbs to burn out ... if you do run into algea Issues down the road, you should change those bulbs, as the bulb ages, its spectrum shifts towards the red/yellow zone 6000K, which could cause algea/Cyano Issues  (but if you keep nutrition low, algea wont have food to grow, so ... ) lol


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Will check out BA to see what they have tonight... seems easy enough to try..... definately cheaper than replacing 4 bulbs at $60 a piece. 

Still working on getting some macro algae for the nitrates ... might pick up some from BA tonight if no luck .... should work for the spectrum shift as well.

The display refuge is in the works ... still looking for a 12x12 tank


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Will check out BA to see what they have tonight... seems easy enough to try..... definately cheaper than replacing 4 bulbs at $60 a piece.
> 
> Still working on getting some macro algae for the nitrates ... might pick up some from BA tonight if no luck .... should work for the spectrum shift as well.
> 
> The display refuge is in the works ... still looking for a 12x12 tank


check BA for tank as well, sometimes they have nice sized tanks ...


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Got the macro algae last night ... guy picked out a handful of "grab bag", said they're all the same. Not sure what it/they are but stuck the whole clump into the netbreeder with a powerhead aimed at it. Don't know what to expect, but definately expect the nitrate problem to get better. My water tested at 40ppm nitrates last night (yea!!). I figure the algae will grow and needs to be removed... how long does it typically take? .. and how do you do it? (i.e.cut it?, rip it apart?...)

No luck on the refuge tank. Might need to have it custom built .. along with maybe a sump tank. Does it make sense to have both? .. or is it better to have the refuge and sump in the same tank?


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Trimming cheato is like trimming a beard... just clip the parts that you dont want... dont need to be methotical about it.... Theres no 'eyes/mouth' you need to avoid.

Grow speeds are different for everyone, you will find out shortly.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

BigRay,

You mentioned 6000k being the red/yellow spectrum, but 5500k is a full spectrum.... but then again the kelvin rating seems to be a little confusing when discussing the different types of light sources.

The reason I ask is I've found a few standard LED lamps rated between 6000-7000k, with lumen ratings from 300-600, powered 12vdc or 120vac.

SO ...

Is the 6000k rating on and LED lamp ok?
Better to get 1-600 lumen or 2-300 lumen bulbs?
Better to get 120vac standard .. easier to implement? or
Get 12vdc with power supply .. more hardware?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

DAX, as you know, K is refereed to KElvin temp, and is used to describe the temp(color ) out out of a bulb.

Here is the sunlights spectrum:









and here is the spectrum of some HQI lamps used with color temp so you an see the distribution.










so as you can see, 6000K will include almost no blue spectrum( which is the spectrum used MOSTLY by corals ) as sunlight shines on surface of water, most of the lower temps get filtered out and only the blue and higher temps make it deeper in the water. so you want much higher, but not meaning those lights arent good, you just need to mix some 6000K with some 2000K to get like a 14000K look.

I personally like the higher temps more, 20-24K as they are much bluer.

yellowish/redish spectrum gives rise to algea. you dont really wnt that, althogh corals which grow really close to surface of water, and anemones can use some of it. (blue still being more potent)

hope that made some sense 

I wouldnt run it on AC ... get a DC power regulator from tiger direct (or u can make it yourself  ) and then you need some REALLY small and simple circuits to regulate the current needed to drive the LEDs, which can be done using resistors alone lol (you can make the lat resistor variable to adjust the current and therefore light output  )


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

_so as you can see, 6000K will include almost no blue spectrum_ 

I see the graph for the 20k and 10k, and I assume the daylight one is for the 6k, but I don't follow how you can say the intensity of the blue is minimal. I was googling light intensity vs wavelength curves but none matched the type you have.

_you just need to mix some 6000K with some 2000K to get like a 14000K look_

How did you arrive at this? ... Is the concept similar to mixing paint colours? ..... wavelength and intensity I get, but not sure how colour fits in


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

as you can see from those 2 graphs of 10000K and 20000K, as the number lowers, the sperctrum shifts towards right, yellowish/redish/greenish colors.
google search "light spectrum for different color temps" and look at the images you get.

here are some more pics I have for some reason lol 
Geinsman T5s, middday, which projects around 6000K (much narrower band at 420nm)










and to see the difference of different color temps :


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I see you are quite the scholar (or maybe even professor) ..... If you ever quit your day job (lol) ...

Assuming the scale for the 10k and 20k are the same, I wouldn't say that there is a shift so much as to say the other wavelength intensities are more pronounced ... i.e. there seems to be relatively the same amount of blues, just more of the reds and yellows. .... please correct me if I'm off..... in which case the light effectiveness is the same, just the actual visible colour is _not as _blue.

As for colour mixing to get better visual appeal .... you have raised my curiousity ... do elaborate.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

lol na Im just a sucker for knowledge  lol

10000K is missing the peak at 420 nm, and also 300nm-400nm (UV) spectrum which are supposedly responsible for the "florescence" in corals.

in general, 10000K will yield better growth, and 20000K will help with coloring. so that's one of the good thing with say T5 HO lighting systems, cause you can choose 6-8 different colored tubes to get all you want !

for example :
Red spectrum helps with florescence and redish/pinkish/purpulish colors in corals.(KZ fiji purple and ATI red) 
blue in coloring and white in growth, so for example on my set up, I have 4 24000K bulbs, 1 fiji purple, and 3 14000K bulbs, as I care for coloring more than growth. and like the more bluish look of the tank. and when you look from a distance, overall it looks like ~~ 20000K. first I had 3 blues and 4 whites and a purple and that was too whitish for my liking.(but corals had better growth then than now)


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## aquanutt (Aug 27, 2010)

Dax said:


> Thanks for the offer. Since you are in my neighbourhood, it makes it easier. Send me a pm for when and where you are able to meet up. In the meantime I'll look for some chaeto.
> 
> The netbreeded method sounds like a way too simple and easy to implement choice not to try it. Once I get a feel for the macro-algae I might convert my HOB filter. I now have 2 extra Aquaclear 300 HOBs I don't know what to do with.


I have too much of it now, chaeto....
If you are in burlington anytime let me know. I will give you about $20 worth of chaeto for free...

cheers
sly


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks Sly, but I broke down and bought some from BA a couple of days ago .... waiting to see the effect.

Ray, that's 8 bulbs!! ... the top of your tanks must look interesting. I'd love to see pictures of your setup .... if you would be so kind. Might give me some ideas as I can see you've put a lot of thought and planning into yours.

BTW, I've been looking a lot into LEDs (still hard to find specifics, but... anyway). If you are using a lot of colour mixing to get your specific effect, there is definately an interesting opportunity here. Just a thought, but what do you think about switching different LEDs constantly to create a smooth constant colour shift, which would easily create shimmering and enhance colours of corals that use different spectral energy?


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Got a weekend story you won't believe.

Just before going out I added a sponge to the HOB filter and moved a powerhead about 2 inches towards the middle. When I got back at night the anemone (centre tank) was drooped over looking like death. I freaked, not sure what to do. I quickly removed the sponge, water over the floor, fight with the wife ... regular panic situation. The anemone was showing signs of back from the dead (in my mind)... in the meantime I added a powerhead aimed right at it. It was fluttering about a lot more and started to do some crazy convulsive behaviour (about as fast as anemones go)... closing up, opening up, wide mouth... I nearly lost it. I didn't know whether to remove the fish, remove the anemone ....  The kids started hounding me so I stepped away to give things a chance to settle. Thank goodness it started to look better and seemed normal this morning.

Thought about it ... *this was the real problem*. The slightly restricted flow of the HOB filter and the small powerhead shift created a big dead zone around the centre of the tank ... drooped over anemone.

Moral: Stop messing with the tank if you are going out.

Question: What sort of emergency kit do you need to keep? Having a tank filled with salt water ready to go seems too much? Having the components to get it together not so bad, but what about the wait time to bring it up to temperature? ....etc? etc?


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## Kweli (Jun 2, 2010)

Ouch... I do most of my 'changes' on the weekend when im home all day to monitor results. Never do anything right before leaving the house as you have experienced one of the downfalls

Wonder if the suggestion of another powerhead would be warrented... If your anemone moves it might find itself in another bad area


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

_Wonder if the suggestion of another powerhead would be warrented... If your anemone moves it might find itself in another bad area _

Forgot to mention...I have the following placement:

Canister filter Intake (LHS back)
Canister filter Output (RHS back aimed centre front)
Powerhead (LHS aimed centre back)
HOB SKimmer (RHS back)
HOB filter (LHS back)

Dead spot smack in the middle of the tank with all the above.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

Dax said:


> Question: What sort of emergency kit do you need to keep? Having a tank filled with salt water ready to go seems too much? Having the components to get it together not so bad, but what about the wait time to bring it up to temperature? ....etc? etc?


Elections today I hope everyone got out there and voted responsibly. Unofficial results have gone up for Vaughan and I'm a bit disappointed.. oh well.. SAVINO QUATELA FOR MAYOR!  LOL jk anyone catch that mayoral debate on rogers? lol

Having a tank with saltwater ready to go requires that water to be moved constantly to keep it oxygenated so it's not really ideal as a 'just in case' thing to have laying around all the time. plus that water, if it's made brand new with RO/DI and salt mix won't have the same salinity/pH/nitrate/oxygen levels etc as your tank water; if you had to move anything into it, it would probably have to be drip acclimated which could further annoy dying or pissed off fish if that ever happened. same with having the components ready to make, as I'm sure you've read from a previous thread that fresh RO/DI water from the tap is low in oxygen and will have a pH out of wack so it wouldn't be the ideal conditions to move an ailing fish into.

you can probably do it with a small tank and one of those HOB filters you have plus a heater. i've seen people even add an airstone as well to help oxygenate the water. this should be your quarantine tank anyway.

anemone's are a really picky bunch as they will show discomfort for a while first then wander the tank looking for a better spot. with my anemones, it would have to be a really long time without flow for it to get pissed off and want to move as I turn my powerheads off when I feed and have left them off for an hour without any problems. one of my rbta moved to an area where i put a powerhead and it hasn't moved for months because it really likes its tentacles being inside the flow of the powerhead. its colors are very vibrant and tentacles bulb up almost all the time so i can assume it's really happy at that spot.

if you're in the market for some powerheads, goreef.com is having a sale on koralias. prices are a heck of a lot cheaper than BA even after shipping. although, BA is having a midnight madness sale coming soon but I wouldn't be too excited about that because their last midnight madness kinda sucked.. they ONLY put select stuff on sale, and did a percentage discount on livestock. i remember they did it in a way where you had to come at certain times to get certain deals..

i don't know the prices they offer at SUM but check with ken first as he often doesn't charge tax and that saves you shipping too. also, you may have to consider the 1050gph ones as your tank is a 65gallon 4footer. according to the convenient little chart on goreef website that states 45-70 gallon marine aquariums should use 1050gph.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

That was my first potential emergency and I was a little lost. Not sure if it will be much different the next time around  

Will stop by SUM at lunchtime today to check out his prices.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Got a weekend story you won't believe.
> 
> Just before going out I added a sponge to the HOB filter and moved a powerhead about 2 inches towards the middle. When I got back at night the anemone (centre tank) was drooped over looking like death. I freaked, not sure what to do. I quickly removed the sponge, water over the floor, fight with the wife ... regular panic situation. The anemone was showing signs of back from the dead (in my mind)... in the meantime I added a powerhead aimed right at it. It was fluttering about a lot more and started to do some crazy convulsive behaviour (about as fast as anemones go)... closing up, opening up, wide mouth... I nearly lost it. I didn't know whether to remove the fish, remove the anemone ....  The kids started hounding me so I stepped away to give things a chance to settle. Thank goodness it started to look better and seemed normal this morning.
> 
> ...


its not just flow, its your water.

go back and read what I said about flow ...


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> its not just flow, its your water.
> 
> go back and read what I said about flow ...


I just went through all your feedback and am not sure what specifically you are referring to.... the water quality has improved considerably (nitrates down to 50 from over 180), all other parameters (ammonia, nitrite, phosphate) in check. I've been using some AragaMight to buffer/supplement my water changes. With the increased flow directed (off the glass) towards the anemone, it looks back to normal. The tentacles are swaying considerably and I don't know how much is too much, but it hasn't moved. If I am missing something, please do let me know.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> I just went through all your feedback and am not sure what specifically you are referring to.... the water quality has improved considerably (nitrates down to 50 from over 180), all other parameters (ammonia, nitrite, phosphate) in check. I've been using some AragaMight to buffer/supplement my water changes. With the increased flow directed (off the glass) towards the anemone, it looks back to normal. The tentacles are swaying considerably and I don't know how much is too much, but it hasn't moved. If I am missing something, please do let me know.


its hard to explain these things .. pointing a power head toward an anemone is not high water flow .... 
what is your KH ? what salt mix do u use and why are you adding aragamight to it?

here is why we need flow in reef tank.
surface aggitation = gas exchange, everything in tank breathes, even LIVE rock
2. getting nutritions to all parts of tank, and getting Oxygen to them as well. the pores of LR need Oxygen ! 
3. not letting detritus settle.

just pointing it on anemone and seeing the anemone fighting the flow is not a good.you want high water flow in your tank ... .


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Ray, I got your point about the flow.... I was just saying that I couldn't believe that 5 water agitation devices could create a calm spot in the middle of my tank.... physics:destructive wave interference.

I also noticed from one of your posts that you have a Vortech MP40. I was going to replace my PHs with 2 Koralia 1050s ($100) but am now wondering if 1 MP10 ($250) might be better. I know you will say to get the MP40, but given my (currently simple) system, I am finding it hard to justify $500.....crisis of conscience... please remember I am only 1 month in. Did you go all out when you started? or built slowly?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Dax said:


> Ray, I got your point about the flow.... I was just saying that I couldn't believe that 5 water agitation devices could create a calm spot in the middle of my tank.... physics:destructive wave interference.
> 
> I also noticed from one of your posts that you have a Vortech MP40. I was going to replace my PHs with 2 Koralia 1050s ($100) but am now wondering if 1 MP10 ($250) might be better. I know you will say to get the MP40, but given my (currently simple) system, I am finding it hard to justify $500.....crisis of conscience... please remember I am only 1 month in. Did you go all out when you started? or built slowly?


I personally like Koralia power heads, they work good and dont need cleaning that often  that's what I got first.

as of MPs ... MP10 is really small, if you decide to go that way, get a MP20 at least, so in future if you do decide to upgrade all you need is a different power cord to turn it into MP40 ...

I only got MP40, cause I ran out of space in my tank for corals, so after taking both K4s out, and replaced it with 1 MP 40, I got about 6 more inches in space inside tank where I placed more corals  if I had the room, I wouldn't have spent 500 on it neither  ALTHOUGH the corrent MP40 makes is unmatched in my honest opinion


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

That's the answer I was looking for . thanks

BTW, I think you may have a coral addiction problem 
I see myself heading down the same path


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