# How you deal with Herbie <> water level in the sump



## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I lost my last hair trying to resolve problem between Herbie and ATO

I adjust drain or pump to the level required, but in a day or two by some reasons it gets unbalanced. Probably waste gets in the pump, but as result the water level in the sump changes. And for sure ATO gets crazy >>> tank salinity

Is Herbie requires constant adjustments ? How you deal with this BS?

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

I just went through your build thread...you have to use a gate valve not a ball valve to control the flow. Gate valves are easier to adjust if you need to open/close juuust a teeny weeny bit.

I'm pushing about 1000gph through 1.5" and fine tuning it with a gate valve is easy...usually 1/16 of a turn either way. Can't get that fine control with a ball valve.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks Wilson, but is this "teeny weeny" daily occurrence? I am able to adjust, but how often I should do it?

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

I service that system once a week and it's been once a month for the past 2 months but was almost weekly when the system started running.

The emerg drain height should be cut about 1/4"-1/2" below the bottom level of the overflow teeth. I usually leave the emerg pipe open at the top, ie no Durso/Stockman.

Adjust, wait 30mins and adjust as needed. No more than 1/16 of a turn at a time or you'll have to start all over again...one can go nuts adjusting if impatient


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wtac said:


> I service that system once a week and it's been once a month for the past 2 months but was almost weekly when the system started running.
> 
> The emerg drain height should be cut about 1/4"-1/2" below the bottom level of the overflow teeth. I usually leave the emerg pipe open at the top, ie no Durso/Stockman.
> 
> Adjust, wait 30mins and adjust as needed. No more than 1/16 of a turn at a time or you'll have to start all over again...one can go nuts adjusting if impatient


Thank you Sir.

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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I will change valves to gate valves and here is more info:

I run 1262 and 1" drain:

- 1" drain is capable to deal with GPH from 1262
- overflow can not keep up with the pump, when valve on the pump open 100% and as result I should reduce flow from the pump ~ 20% (80% open)
- when flow reduced from pump, the water level in overflow box starts to drop > noise
As result, I need to reduce drain flow to be compatible with pump
- after adjustment it works day or two and pump reduces (very little) flow itself>>> water level in the sump rises >>> ATO does not add fresh water
- adjust again>> water level in the sump goes down >> ATO adds a lot of water.

I do not want to play adjustment game with 2 components - drain and pump, because there is also overflow a factor. Instead I adjust only pump. It works for a day or two, but after that the ...again 

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

First thing to do is set the pump flow to where you happy with. Then adjust the gate valve.

ONLY adjust the gate valve from here on in.

Ideally you want the pump to run unrestricted but let's work on one area at a time .


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wtac said:


> First thing to do is set the pump flow to where you happy with. Then adjust the gate valve.
> 
> ONLY adjust the gate valve from here on in.
> 
> Ideally you want the pump to run unrestricted but let's work on one area at a time .


Thanks. I will try, but what to do when pump reduces flow every second day without visible reason.
It is very little, but enough for the water level in tank and as result in overflow to drop?

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Unless there is a change in voltage and frequency, my guess is trying to fine tune the drain with a ball valve


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wtac said:


> Unless there is a change in voltage and frequency, my guess is trying to fine tune the drain with a ball valve


for sure, I am going to do it. Your advice always made things better 

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## cica (Feb 10, 2013)

Do you have the foam in the pump? If yes, it might be getting clogged slowly and that reduces the pump output. 
I have the jebao dc6000 and the main drain line is 5/8" (16 mm) inside dim. It is reduced to about 80% by a ball valve and it handles the flow.
Are you sure you don't have air pocket in your drain pipe?


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

cica said:


> Do you have the foam in the pump? If yes, it might be getting clogged slowly and that reduces the pump output.
> I have the jebao dc6000 and the main drain line is 5/8" (16 mm) inside dim. It is reduced to about 80% by a ball valve and it handles the flow.
> Are you sure you don't have air pocket in your drain pipe?


It could get clogged even without the foam. just dirt builds on. I will check for air packet.

Thanks

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Forgot to mention that the gate valve should be places as close to the end as possible to minimize air build-up. The pipe should be no more than 1" below the water level to help push out air to minimize back pressure reducing water drainage flow.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks Wilson

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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Once it is set up properly it doesn't require much tinkering. Every now and then I have to adjust mine. There is an end in sight Greg. Sorry I missed this thread until now but it looks like Wilson found main problem.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

fesso clown said:


> Once it is set up properly it doesn't require much tinkering. Every now and then I have to adjust mine. There is an end in sight Greg. Sorry I missed this thread until now but it looks like Wilson found main problem.


I do not lazy to adjust drain valve, but this game also screws our lovely AVAST ATO system >> salinity 

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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

After you put in the gate valve, unplug the ATO and start the system. Fine tune as best as you can and once it settles, add NSW/remove system water as needed to get to the set level for the ATO. Keep the ATO off for the day and check the level and adjust as needed every 15-30mins. 

When it seems consistent, plug in your ATO and check every hour.

A PITA but once it's dialed in adjustments become few and far between.

Patience is the key


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

wtac said:


> .
> 
> Patience is the key


that is what I am learning now 

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## zk4444 (Mar 8, 2012)

Oh great... I just saw this thread just AFTER I finished plumbing and mounted a generic BALL valve instead of the recommended GATE valve for Herbie method -- looks like this part of my plumbing is going to be a "do over"  (or perhaps I'll get lucky and may not have to?)

I am using a Jebao DC-6000 return pump directly hard-plumbed to a 1" PVC.


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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

damn i'm researching how to do this herbie but now i'm thinking about just sticking with a duruso. this seems confusing.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I must say, it is very quiet, when it works properly

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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

sig said:


> I must say, it is very quiet, when it works properly


quiet is a big plus....but like you said if you can get it to work properly.


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

zk4444 said:


> Oh great... I just saw this thread just AFTER I finished plumbing and mounted a generic BALL valve instead of the recommended GATE valve for Herbie method -- looks like this part of my plumbing is going to be a "do over"  (or perhaps I'll get lucky and may not have to?)
> 
> I am using a Jebao DC-6000 return pump directly hard-plumbed to a 1" PVC.


Try to eliminate or reduce horizontal sections of your plumbing as it traps air in the section. Also try using 45 degree elbows instead of the 90's.

Hth


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

Flexin5 said:


> damn i'm researching how to do this herbie but now i'm thinking about just sticking with a duruso. this seems confusing.


Nothing to it, sure you have to tune it every so often but worth it in the end. Give me a shout if you need some help.


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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

^I will for sure when the time comes, the upgrade is being pushed back for me, bought a new car instead LOL


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

The reason for having the gate valve at the lowest point possible is for minimal splashing at the sump and ease of air purging from the pipe below the gate valve.

You might get lucky as is but if you find tuning it later on is a PITA, you'll have to redo that section of plumbing.

HTH


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## zk4444 (Mar 8, 2012)

During tuning, do you guys let a tiny bit of water trickle down the emergency drain?

I am not able to run the emergency completely "dry". It seems this is the only way I can get the herbie working (and very quietly) for an extended period of time.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

zk4444 said:


> During tuning, do you guys let a tiny bit of water trickle down the emergency drain?
> 
> I am not able to run the emergency completely "dry". It seems this is the only way I can get the herbie working (and very quietly) for an extended period of time.


I seen somewhere that it was recommended to run herbie in this way

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## notclear (Nov 5, 2011)

^^ I run this way just because the emergency pipe goes to my frag tank !


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

notclear said:


> ^^ I run this way just because the emergency pipe goes to my frag tank !


you have frag tank  where do you store it 

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## notclear (Nov 5, 2011)

I have converted the refugium to a frag tank


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

The problem was identified and fixed. 

It had nothing to do with the gate valves adjustments. The problem was myself + AVAST ATO. This ATO works perfectly in many other setups and it works perfectly in mine, but here is the trick.

I always build my sump in the way, that I could make WC (in this case 10g) without stopping the main pump. It means water level in the tank still the same even when 10G taken from the sump. 
But before I always run Durso with the drain intake much higher that my current Herbie style.
Now when I take out from the sump 10G for WC or 200ml evaporates water in the overflow box going down and it creates crazy noise. I can not really explain how why water level in the overflow box going down identically for 10G or 200ml, but this is the fact.

*
and here is the trick*

AVAST ATO works based on the air pressure signal to the relay. level going down >> pressure drops >>starts pump and has non adjustable approximately half inch start/stop delay. It is exactly 200 ml which forced water down in the overflow box and created noise.
*
and here myself come in the play* 
In order to fix noise, I run to play with valves and as result got system completely unbalanced again 
I purchased used JBJ ATO for my RODI container and decided to try it on the sump.
Big surprise - herbie works like a charm and I also made AVAST ato to work as a emergency stoppage. 
Now I have JBJ fills evaporated water and AVAST will stop pump when JBJ fails
*
Thank you everybody for advice and attempts to help*

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