# Position of valve in Herbie overflow



## talon

Herbie overflow come with 1 emergency drain and 1 main drain.
The drain pipe is over 15' and straight down the sump.
Any different between a gate valve just behind pipe and the end of pipe inside a sump? If a valve behind a pipe, it still have 14' pipe length after. Will it have air (bubble) into sump.


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## Windowlicka

Since the herbie method operates on the principal of a full siphon, then theoretically it shouldn't matter where along the length of the drain the valves are located - (assuming the system is setup correctly) there will never be air in the line.

That said, you will likely have to fully open the gate valve each time the system needs to be 'rebooted' to ensure that all air is expelled from the drain line, else the problem you mention will become evident.


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## sig

are you planning to reduce flow from the 1" main drain? I think you will always have a bubbles coming in the sump, until you use some kind of "bag"

My valve is under the tank on the main drain and around 15' pipe running to the sump. It does not matter how much close/open position of the valve, I get huge amount of the bubbles in the sump, but unbelievably they are stay local in the first compartment of the sump.
I can send you a picture if you need

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## sig

Windowlicka said:


> Since the herbie method operates on the principal of a full siphon, then theoretically it shouldn't matter where along the length of the drain the valves are located - (assuming the system is setup correctly) there will never be air in the line.
> 
> That said, you will likely have to fully open the gate valve each time the system needs to be 'rebooted' to ensure that all air is expelled from the drain line, else the problem you mention will become evident.


it is just theoretically my friend 

you can "reboot" closed circle ( like your plumbing system), but here we have system that always adds a air to the flow

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## Windowlicka

sig said:


> are you planning to reduce flow from the 1" main drain? I think you will always have a bubbles coming in the sump, until you use some kind of "bag"


It's a full siphon, my friend - no air in the lines whatsoever. So long as the primary drain remains fully submerged in the overflow, and the drain to the sump is below water level at all times, then there is a ridiculous amount of flow, but no bubbles, and no noise.

None, nada, nichts, никто, zip!

(Thanks very much, Google Translator!)

One of these days you'll drag your sorry ass up to Aurora, and you'll see for yourself!


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## sig

Windowlicka said:


> It's a full siphon, my friend - no air in the lines whatsoever. So long as the primary drain remains fully submerged in the overflow, and the drain to the sump is below water level at all times, then there is a ridiculous amount of flow, but no bubbles, and no noise.
> 
> None, nada, nichts, никто, zip!
> 
> (Thanks very much, Google Translator!)
> 
> One of these days you'll drag your sorry ass up to Aurora, and you'll see for yourself!


Fortunately for you,  I do not have enough English to discuss this issue, but any properly done Durso type (which I seen) has air intake on the cap, which by default means you have air in the water.

That is why all most of the all plumbing fixtures in the house have venting.

si·phon also sy·phon (sfn)
n.
1. A pipe or tube fashioned or deployed in an inverted U shape* and filled until atmospheric pressure *is sufficient to force a liquid from a reservoir in one end of the tube over a barrier higher than the reservoir and out the other end

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## Windowlicka

Not using a durso, sir - it's a completely submerged drain (actually it's nothing more than a bare, naked bulkhead at the base of the overflow, with little more than a strainer in the top of it to protect it's modesty, and prevent any snails falling in and blocking it!). 

The failover drain has a durso standpipe, but it's only purpose is to come into effect should the primary drain fail for whatever reason.

Come take a drive 25 mins North. I guarantee you there's NO air in the primary drain line! I'll even make a bet with you over this - the loser drives back down Bathurst with a frag of GSP that they MUST add to their shiny new 6' tank, and take weekly pictures (AND post them here) to prove it's still there...!


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## sig

Thanks Man, I will visit you for sure after June 1st

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## sig

Windowlicka said:


> Not using a durso, sir - ..!


My fault did not read properly 

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## Windowlicka

sig said:


> My fault did not read properly


LOL! Forgiven!

Here's a couple of crappy snaps I found on my cell phone - I hope you can make out the drains in the Overflow?

You can just make out the top of the completely submerged strainer on top of the bulkhead for the main drain line. This is the full siphon line. @ 1.5", there's the capability to push a shedload of water into the sump (without using valves to regulate the flow)

The Durso is on the failover drain - this only comes into play if the primary line fails for any reason.


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## sig

Windowlicka said:


> LOL! Forgiven!
> 
> Here's a couple of crappy snaps I found on my cell phone - I hope you can make out the drains in the Overflow?
> 
> You can just make out the top of the completely submerged strainer on top of the bulkhead for the main drain line. This is the full siphon line. @ 1.5", there's the capability to push a shedload of water into the sump (without using valves to regulate the flow)
> 
> The Durso is on the failover drain - this only comes into play if the primary line fails for any reason.


Why to spend money making durso on the emergency drain 

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## Windowlicka

It came with the tank


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## talon

Windowlicka
Your system is not siphon, air is going inside from an air hole and bubble into sump. Your as same as mine. But I put the cap level below the teeth level. When the water is reach the top of overflow box, water cover air hole, siphon will happen pull a ton of water quickly. It can avoid flood. Main drain became emergency drain in second.
I've two 1.5" main drain. They just enough handle a flow from return pump.(5800gph) Actually the bubble trap should block a micro bubble. But the flow is too high (around 3800gph), it push a bubble to second & return section. That why I need modify to herbie.
Let discuss valve position.
1. Valve at the end of line, the water willfill up the whole drain pipe, no air
surely.
2. Valve behind bulkhead, it might still air after valve, due it is not siphon
part. The siphon part before valve only. Is it make sense?


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## talon

Windowlicka

Is it a main drain under water in pic 1? I can't see clearly.
If so, you have a siphon system, my bad.
How come you don't need valve to control water level in overflow box.


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## Windowlicka

talon said:


> Windowlicka
> 
> Is it a main drain under water in pic 1? I can't see clearly.
> If so, you have a siphon system, my bad.
> How come you don't need valve to control water level in overflow box.


I do - they're sump-side 

I have 2 - my drain T's-off to feed both the skimmer and the Refugium. Each line has it's own valve to control the rate of flow.

And yes - the main drain is the submerged bulkhead. The durso standpipe is the failover drain.


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## Windowlicka

talon said:


> Let discuss valve position.
> 1. Valve at the end of line, the water willfill up the whole drain pipe, no air
> surely.
> 2. Valve behind bulkhead, it might still air after valve, due it is not siphon
> part. The siphon part before valve only. Is it make sense?


1) that's pretty much how mine is setup.

2) So long as the top of the drain remains fully submerged during operation, and the bottom of the drain is also underwater at all times, then when you start the system and open the valve to expel all of the air, a siphon is created, and that's how the system works. The siphon is only broken when air enters the system. Adjusting the valves merely helps to increase/decrease the rate of flow.

Put the valves wherever makes more sense to your situation, but either way, since you're planning to locate the sump in your basement, get ready to run up and down stairs (lots!) when you first start the siphon - you'll need to balance the drains such that you retain enough water in your overflow to ensure the integrity of the siphon, AND ensure that your flow to the sump is enough to provide consistent operation of your skimmer, yet still allow enough volume in the sump for overflow water, should the system stop/need to be stopped!


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## Windowlicka

I just made a quick crappy cellphone video to show my system in operation. Here's the URL - but give it 10 mins... it's still uploading to Youtube...






_Warning: It is highly unlikely that I might ever be mistaken for Steven Spielberg._


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## talon

That what I plan locate valves in the sump. I just consider what size of pipe should I use. 2x1" or 2x1.5". The return line is 1.5". I'm worry about 2x1" not good enough for siphon drain.
The cost of 1.5" flex-pipe and valve (nice one) is more expensive than 1".
Does a valve need adjustment every time when power on?


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## Windowlicka

talon said:


> That what I plan locate valves in the sump. I just consider what size of pipe should I use. 2x1" or 2x1.5". The return line is 1.5". I'm worry about 2x1" not good enough for siphon drain.
> The cost of 1.5" flex-pipe and valve (nice one) is more expensive than 1".


I'll let you know in a week or two - I'm currently setting up a separate system with a 23g long DT + 20g long sump, also to use herbie style drains... I drilled the DT for 2x 1" drain lines, and 1x 3/4" return...


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## talon

Watch your video, I know the valve you use is cheaper.
They don't take a fine turn dialing, does it good enough adjust flow rate.
Sometime the cost of plumbing almost 1/4 of tank price.
You mention that I might down and up stair to adjust valve.
That mean we need adjust valve every time after power off and on.


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## Windowlicka

talon said:


> Watch your video, I know the valve you use is cheaper.


Erm, thanks?!? 

Yes. They're not gate valves.



talon said:


> They don't take a fine turn dialing, does it good enough adjust flow rate.


You're right. They're a PITA to fine tune.



talon said:


> Sometime the cost of plumbing almost 1/4 of tank price.


If not more! (that's certainly the case for my 23/20 build...!)



talon said:


> You mention that I might down and up stair to adjust valve.
> That mean we need adjust valve every time after power off and on.


They need to be tuned to retain their balance, so yes - invest in a quality pair of runners with decent insoles!


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## Chris S

If you have 15 feet of head height, even a ball valve will be ok for a herbie. That said, usually the valve will go near the bottom, near the sump.


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## sig

talon said:


> W
> You mention that I might down and up stair to adjust valve.
> That mean we need adjust valve every time after power off and on.


I am not running down and up stairs after power off, I am just using second person with the phone

I start system with bypass from the pump to the sump full opened. One person upstairs is looking for the water level in the tank and second slowly closes bypass valve

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## sig

Chris S said:


> If you have 15 feet of head height, even a ball valve will be ok for a herbie. That said, usually the valve will go near the bottom, near the sump.


you guys talking about sump in the stand under tank, but sump in the basement is the different story. I have both return and drain valves upstairs if I need to shut the system in case of emergency. Until I will run to the basement, I will have many gallons on the floor

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## talon

Chris S said:


> If you have 15 feet of head height, even a ball valve will be ok for a herbie.


It will save a lot of money for gate valve or fine turn valve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talon 
Watch your video, I know the valve you use is cheaper.
Erm, thanks?!?

Yes. They're not gate valves.

Sorry, I don't mean yours valve cheap, I have it and know it is tight to fine turn.


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## fesso clown

*plumbing*

where do you guys buy your plumbing form? I am setting up a Herbie overflow this week.


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## sig

MOPS, Lowe's and 1.5" tiger flex from discount pull supply (it cost there much less less than in Love's ~ $2.50/f

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## msobon

Regardless of the valve you use the flow will change over time as stuff builds up in pipes or the pump sucks something in that will affect its performance, adjustments will have to be slight. Since this method still requires a safety you can setup a durso and have minimal water flow over still allowing silent drainage and more flexibility not requiring adjustments.


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## talon

Windowlicka
As you said, it have to fully open valve to release air after power off.
How do you solve that problem when you are out and the power outage happen?
I've adjust the valve to set the water level what I want. Then power off the pump and on. The water level up to higher and over emergency pipe. It seem some air block in main drain, the fully siphon can't happen. If set the level sightly lower, the sound of water fall is very loud.


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## Windowlicka

If power fails then resumes, your valves should have been set to "nigh balance" in the first instance, so they'll be "good enough" until you are able to fine-tune them (as msobon mentioned, they do need tuning over time anyways)

if you're trapping air in the system on a restart and overflowing your drain line, then there's a bigger problem. The drain lines are gravity fed. If gravity is being challenged by another force, then you are going to have issues ( Is your sump directly below your DT, or off to one side? If off to one side, are you sure any horizontal piping is neither flat nor inclined? Ie: Are you sure that your drain lines point in a generally downwards direction all the way to your sump?)

If properly setup, then there will be no gurgling sounds, 'cos there's no air. Then, and only then will you have a full (and silent) siphon. 

I'd check your plumbing lines first - I'd bet you either have a flat or upwards-pointing drain line in at least one section...

Ps: where along the line are your valves located? Near the sump, or closer to the DT? I locate mine at the sump... That way I *know* that the drain line is full of water right back to the DT...


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## talon

There are some pic for reference. You can see water line is just 1 square egg craft below the top and exceed water go into emergency pipe. Water line sightly reach euro-brace already. (really risky) Due the flow is rush, it will make a waterfall sound if the line under the teeth 1.5". I don't want the water go into emergency pipe all the time. The perfect level is 1" below the teeth. It's dead silent and zero bubble. Now, the problem is the ball valve can't fine turn to adjust water level accurately. These 1.5" valve I did testing and feel very smoothly than other brand. Unfortunately, they're still not good enough. I guess I need buy a more expensive gate valve. I discover the water level in sump effect to water level in overbox too. 
My sump locate just under the DT.


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## Windowlicka

Couple of observations:

Can you cut your teeth deeper on your acrylic overflow? That would certainly help to lower the water level in your DT, and help with the redundant drain issue.

The spa flex to your valves/sump looks pretty flat/level - that won't help you exhaust any residual air in your drain lines. Can you raise the right so you have at least c.1/4" of drop to your sump along every 4ft of straight pipe?

Minor criticism - The valves in your sump shouldn't be side-by-side, ideally they should be staggered so that you don't bind them up together when adjusting one or the other... But I also guess you now realize that!

Unrelated observation: I'd buy strainers to cover all the drains in your overflows... One snail, crab or a good sized fish down those drains could easily cause a blockage, then a nightmare! MOPS sells them for a couple o'bux each... they're cheap fool-proof fail safes.

PS - love the dual overflows... And how about a full tank shot!


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## talon

Teeth is deep enough reach the glass already. There is euro-brace over the teeth and a glass cover overflow box , so snail can't inside. The spa flex just a little part flat position only. The tank is Durso system before, not noise but have a micro bubble issue. I drill one more hole in each box for emergency drain. Herbie system is dead silent and no bubble. I like it! But Bean animal system is perfect. FTS will come later after done my drain and hang back lightning fixture.
Does your emergency drain always dry?


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