# Extra filtration



## PlantedNerd (Apr 6, 2013)

Hey everyone. I have a 65 g tall setup right now using a eheim 2217 and still in the nitrite stage of the cycle. I have the opportunity to add an additional small fluval nano submersible filter rated at 15 g. Would it be benificial at all to add to my aquarium for the biological aspect if nothing else? Also my nitrites have been off the charts for almost 2 weeks now is that normal? should i do water changes? May have over stocked the tank a little, I have 6 serpae tetra 2 pictus cats (about 3 inches each) and 2 SAEs.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

A nitrite spike can last for many weeks, but normally, there are no fish to be harmed by it while it's happening. I don't mean to sound unkind, but why so many fish in a tank that has not cycled ? 

Fish in cycling is one thing but you have too many fish for a tank that has not cycled yet. Not too many for that size tank, but too many for it while it's not cycled. 

If you haven't put in any plants, adding as many as you can will help some, if only to use up some of the ammonia, and will add some beneficial bacteria also.

You MUST do water changes to reduce those nitrite levels if you want your fish to survive, though if it's been two weeks it is likely too late by now to save them. Nitrites burn the gills, just like ammonia does. If your levels are too high to measure, I am sorry to say, but I would not be surprised if your fish die of the toxic effects of the ammonia and nitrite, quite possibly before the tank is cycled.

Adding the extra filter can't hurt. Having extra biomedia is a good thing in any tank, but it won't help the cycle at all unless you can get some nice mature media to seed both the Fluval and the Eheim. Maybe someone in the area could give you some aged media from a well cycled tank, which will give you both of the types of bacteria you need for the cycle to finish.

Good luck.


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## PlantedNerd (Apr 6, 2013)

I got the fish because a guy at Big Al's in North York said it should be ok to get them. I first got the tetra and the gentleman said its a good starting fish to cycle. I went back about ten days later to buy some more plants and saw the catfish. I talked to the same guy and I told him my tank wasnt finished cycling and he said its almost done so It would be ok to add. While researching why my nitrites weren't going down I read a few articles about having too many fish. I'm not happy as I feel I've been "taken" by that particular store. That's is actually why I joined this forum, I don't always trust the LFS workers have my best interest in mind. They also tried telling me I needed a $200.00 co2 system for my low/moderate light tank and sold me a plant that turned out to be riddled with baby snails. I like Big Als but that location seems a lil shady. Is there anything I can do besides the water changes. Not to rush the cycle but to offset the amount of fish? I have been feeding them lightly every other day.


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## TorontoBoy (Mar 14, 2013)

You might try adding salt as salt is supposed to reduce the effects of nitrite poisoning. Research is needed because not all fish handle salt well, and I'm unsure about your specific fish or plants.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/nitritepoison.htm

I have read that cats do not take to salt treatment very well, so caution is required.

Nitrite poisoning will kill your fish at lower levels than ammonia. You will need to keep up with water changes.

P.S. It looks like you got played the fool by BA North York. You might want to talk to the fish room manager there.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

That's really too bad, and I am sorry this happened to you. It was outdated advice, to say the least. Unfortunately, not all LFS employees are as knowledgeable as they should be. That's why you really need to do your own research first when you're going to spend money on a new hobby.

Modern thinking is that using fish to cycle a tank is cruel, because they often die of nitrite or ammonia toxicity. It's also not necessary, as there are a few ways to do it without using fish. Pure ammonia is one way, used media is another, some even use a bit of shrimp to get things going. But the only way to avoid damage to fish in a cycling tank is to perform major, frequent water changes, and even then, there would be no guarantees for the fish. Having plenty of plants can help offset the ammonia to some degree, as plants do use it up.

You're liable to spend a lot of money on a hobby like this, even if not all at once, so to me it makes sense for a new hobbyist to do some research before investing hard earned money. But we all make mistakes. I hope this one won't be too painful for you. 

The absolute quickest way to cycle a tank is to get some used mature media from a filter on a well cycled tank, or the squeezings from such media and either place it in your filter or pour it out in the tank, where the bacteria will soon end up in the filter. This provides a starting population of the two bacteria needed for a finished cycle. It is possible to stop a nitrite spike pretty quickly using mature media, though it depends how much ammonia/nitrite you've got how long it will take for the bacteria to multiply to numbers high enough to convert it all. Once you begin to see nitrate readings, all the nitrites have been converted, and a tank is said to be 'cycled'. 

But even after that, it's not good to add fish too quickly, as each new fish adds more waste, and the bacteria must increase their numbers to handle each extra load. So add fish gradually. In your case, since the fish are in there already, once you see nitrates, it will mean the most toxic compounds are gone. Then it's a matter of waiting, to see if the fish are going to be able to recover from the toxic exposure. So the faster you can get the tank cycled, the better for the fish. But you must be prepared for the fact that some, or all, may not make it, or may have much shorter lives than they should if they do survive.

While it would be nice to think that the fish stores are there to give good advice, and many of the people working in them DO give good advice, the sad fact is they are a business. Selling you and the rest of us stuff is how they make money and stay in business. If your fish die, well, then they hope you'll buy more fish, since you've already invested in the tank and accessories. Personally I think it's a very poor way to start a relationship with a new customer, but then again, bad advice is not necessarily given deliberately. It's just as likely to be ignorance on the part of the employee. I try to check any new info I get from a store, either here or online or with other hobbyists, before I take it into my routine. I would not take advice from that employee again, for sure.

It's good you turned down the C02 system, which is only needed for high tech planted tanks, and in any case, you'll be much better off buying a system designed for your needs, if you ever need one. But this is why being prepared with your own research is so important. Btw, there is a sticky here, on Fishless cycling, which you should read. It's got all the basic info on cycling. 

Meantime, you might try putting a Wanted Ad in the Buy/Sell forum, to ask if anyone with tanks who is nearby might give you some used media to help stop your nitrate spike. It seems you did get bad advice. Ideally you should have done your own research, but we all make mistakes, sadly. So at this point, the main thing is to try and save the fish. 

I would give you some media myself but I'm nowhere near you. Though I will be in the area on Thursday, so if you can't find any, maybe I can bring you a bit.. but it doesn't last too long out of the filter so someone closer would be better.

As for the snails on the plants, that really cannot be blamed on the store. They come that way from the suppliers and unless you buy tissue cultured plants grown under sterile conditions, it's nearly impossible to avoid getting some hitchhikers, snails, scuds or other critters. 

It is a good idea to soak plants in a bucket, preferably with a light over it for a few hours daily, for at least a day before they hit the tank. Soak them longer if possible, but use an airstone to circulate the water in the bucket. This soaking will help you find and get rid of any hitchhikers you don't want and also rinse off any possible residues from pesticides used on the plants before they were shipped. 

And snails are not all bad news. They do clean the glass and eat algae and leftovers, so it's not a totally bad thing they are there. You just don't want their numbers to get too high. Removing them when you see them, and scraping off any egg deposits you see, which will be clear jelly looking blobs on the glass or plants, is about all you can do if you really don't want them. Also do not overfeed the fish, as extra food simply fuels snail reproduction.


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## PlantedNerd (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks for help. I checked the water this morning and while the nitrites were still high I am finally seeing some nitrate readings. Does this mean the cycle is finishing? My fish, well they seem to be ok for now. They are all acting and swimming normally. I can't see any kind of inflammation on the gills and no one is gasping for air at the top. My tank is heavily planted and they are growing great. Not to sound insensitive but after reading your replies I thought to myself if the fish don't make it, is my tank big enough for a species of piranha? I love predatory fish but assumed my tank would be too small.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

cycle is complete when ammonia and nitrite readings are 0, but seeing nitrates is a good sign that there is progress.

The best thing you could do is ask if anyone in your area can spare some used media. With enough used media, you can have a tank cycled in as little as a day or two, but that is quite a bit of used media, but even a small amount can greatly boost your tank.

There are also products that help build up the bacteria, I use stress zyme by API when a tank needs a bit of a boost like after a major water change or cleaning the filter.

Just don't add any more fish until ammonia and nitrites are 0.

also for low light setup, co2 would be a waste of money.

Stick with these forums and you will get a lot of great advice and learn a lot.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

You might want to try one of the other forums, maybe Monsterfish, for pirhana info. Never kept them and have no interest in them, so that's one thing I can't help with.

I am pleased to hear the fish seem to be doing well, you might have been lucky, and if so, that's great. But it can take time for nitrite poisoning to do it's nasty work.. but my fingers are crossed for you. Nitrates do mean the cycle is finally coming to an end, but as pyrrolin said, it is not done until Nitrites are zero, ammonia is zero and nitrates, ideally, are around 10 - 20 ppm. With lots of plants, it might be lower still, but so long as it does not go over 50 ppm, most fish are not affected by it. Higher levels are toxic though, so don't allow them to go higher.

Good luck


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## PlantedNerd (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks for the advice again. I am happy to say that i came home after work today and the nitrites read zero. Ill keep an eye on it the next couple days while I research the kind of fish id like to keep. From what I've read today it seems my tank is too small for most piranha species but I do enjoy a nice community tank too. Ideally I'd like to have a species that isn't common. Perhaps even challenging. The tank is a planted 36x 24x 18, any suggestions??


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

with that footprint, I wouldn't go with fish any larger than 4 to 5 inches.

My advice is to visit a few different stores. Take notes of the fish you are interested in, the conditions of the fish, healthy looking, are any floating and so on for each store to figure out if any of the stores are bad news.

Once you have a list of the fish you are interested in, look each of them up and learn about them, things like how large they get, what they eat, temperatures, ph, if they mix well with plants, what ones are compatible with what ones.

The general categories which generally shout not be mixed are as follows

goldfish
community fish
semi aggressive fish
African cichlids
south American cichlids

Here is an example of what not to do, you may want an Oscar that is about 2 inches in the store, this fish is a south American cichlid and can be aggressive and also can grow to 18 inches long. You do not want to put a school of neon tetras with an Oscar as it will soon be able and very willing to eat them.

Once you think you have a stocking list, post it here and we can give our feedback. We will want to know things like do you want live plants, the tank size and footprint, filter used, lighting.

Also once you know what fish you want, only stock the number that would be about the same as the ammonia you have been putting in the tank to cycle it as your cycle is ready for up to a certain amount and if you over stock, the cycle will have to catch up. We can also help you with what order and how many fish to put in at a time. One thing that often helps is to put the most aggressive fish in last.


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