# Couple new GBR pics.



## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

*Couple new pics of my GBR's*

Well, the sun was just starting to hit my tank and my rams were over there so i decided to take a few shots without flash on. I think they turned out good .
lol the little female is in the spotlight .

The big male is the Small female and small males Father.

I love the iridescent scales they almost look fake lol...

lol i forgot to say the Big guy is 2.75"long and the small female is an inch 

Wellllll as you can see i got a picture of my young male lol Nice pose but i wish it was more clear lol Probably the best i can do for him lol... hes a little ninja so i gotta say this is a good shot haha. he is about 1 1/4 of an inch.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

She's cute! Amazing shots - glad you had a camera handy.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

Great colour on them.


...I should get some more subjects....


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

OOoohh those did turn out well!


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks For the comments guys, I wish i could get a shot like this of the Young Male i have lol hes so nice and uniform. every time i try to he always scoots away to his bubbler that he is so interested in. but one day when i sneak up on him.. he will be posted here whether he likes it or not lol..


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## flanneryc (Jul 25, 2009)

Beautiful fish for sure!!!!!

GBR's RULE!!


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

Very nice pics, the colours on the male is amazing.



Tropicana said:


> Thanks For the comments guys, I wish i could get a shot like this of the Young Male i have lol hes so nice and uniform. every time i try to he always scoots away to his bubbler that he is so interested in. but one day when i sneak up on him.. he will be posted here whether he likes it or not lol..


lol, we will be waiting for that pic.


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*german ram*

hey there awsome pics , i came across these fish a few weeks ago and i think they are so kewl , new to the hobby as well , i have a few questions to ask maybe u can answer them , how do u tell male and females apart i have two in my 35 gal tank and she has layed eggs but i cant seem to get them to go past that . i have two others in my 40 gal tank and all they do is fight , any ideas how many can i put in a tank with each other and what should i do with the pair that seem to be breeding 
thanks 
tom


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks, Well i hope you Cycled your tank and it is established enough for these fish they are very picky about there parameters. In the pictures above the Left one is a male and the right is a female A very distinct trait in females is the Pink belly. Also for males the second Dorsal ray is usually Longer then females but this has been bred into some females. In a community Aquarium it is almost positive you will not have any fry survive since the parenting skills in the fish are normally not very good. And the other tank mates will eat the fry if they get to that stage. If you have Pleco's or catfish of any sort they will usually eat the eggs within 2 days. The two in the 40 gal may be both males or both females or male and female which will not pair but most will pair so it is likely you have 2 of the same sex. Well as for how amny you can put in a tank it depends. I have a 180 gallon aquarium and i only have 2 males and 2 females. one of the males killed the other so you tell me lol. usually a pair per 40 gallons i say because since they spawn they can get VERY territorial and will stress other rams which die easily from it. 


As for your breeding pair that is good to hear. If you would like to Breed these fish it takes a lot of effort on your part. They do not have good parenting skills and will eat there first 10 or so batches and during those 10 spawning they usually get a little better at each. if they get to fry stage where you see the babies swimming then they will need food and from here on in. you have to hatch Baby Brine shrimp every couple days since the fry are so small. I fed my Fry BBS(baby brine shrimp) for about a month, then they started eating crushed NLS Cichlid pellets. All in all for breeding you usually have to hatch the eggs yourself after they spawn and that is a whole other story. lol If u need any more help then let me know .

as for the fish itself they normally require 80-84Deg F and a variety of frozen/dry food for large spawns and overall health. Just make sure your other fish can handle the warm water. i would also advise getting a bubbler for the extra aeration if you take my advice.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

20g per pair is usually a good rule. I've been able to successfully breed 2 pairs in a 40g breeder with no problems. They are fairly easy to get to spawn and hatch, and are reasonably good parents. If the tank has other fish, your rams will have trouble protecting their fry and eventually they will be eaten. The male and female will tend to the fry once they are free swimming.

The hardest part is keeping your fry alive. To do so, you will likely have to feed bbs every day for at least 3-6 weeks at least once a day and seperate them from their parents about a week or so after they are free swimming. Most people are only able to "raise" (read: save) a few from the spawn so don't feel bad if you are unsuccessful!

As for temperature, I'm not sure why everyone thinks such high temperatures are necessary to keep rams. Keep them around 25 celcius and you will be fine. Hitting 30 celcius is going to be reaching a bit, not to mention increasing their metabolism and likely depleting the health of their spawns. A higher temperature might help in raising fry, but only if you can feed them twice a day, at least, with bbs.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

I agree the higher temps are usually only good if u can feed them more then twice a day, although higher temps stop diseases like Ich a lot better then lower temps do. i think that is the main reason Cory. i also keep my adults at 80-82ish and i have had them for over a year now so it hasn't taken its toll on them yet.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Kelly,

If you have good water quality and your fish are healthy, I wouldn't worry too much about ich.

Higher water temperatures will lead to a shorter lifespan in your fish, but I have also found it effects fertility to a degree as well. It isn't "wrong" to have a higher temperature. In the wild they likely see a range of temperature, but from what I know they typically live in temps. around 24-27.

They are pretty adaptable fish though! pH? Hard? Soft? Acidic? They don't care too much!


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

lol no kidding im just sayin though the dude is a novice, he will probably run into ich one way or another and having those temps can help especially rams since they are supposedly weaker. but i am curious as how it effects the fishes fertility?. just curious .


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Higher temperatures don't really help prevent ich, at least not in the way clean water and good diet do. All warmer water does for ich is speed up its life cycle (like fish _and humans_) This can be useful when treating for the problem. Right now I'm treating some of my Big Al's purchases for ich (GBRS incidentally lol) and Ive got the temp a bit higher so I don't have to spend as long putting in meds and salt. As for fertility, I haven't heard anything like what Chris is mentioning but I have heard often that temperature will affect the male female ratio of a spawn.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

hmm really. well i noticed i have had 2 males only out of 8 fry hmm... lol


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Yep! But iirc it is different in all fish so warm water might make more boy platies but it might also make more girl tiger barbs so you need to check the info on the specific fish to see which you'll get from what. I'll let you know how it goes if mine decide to spawn  Unfortunately, I realized my 2 males and 2 females are 1 male and 3 females but hey maybe down the road the left out girls can be bred to new bloodlines (like yours!). In fact, should my fish spawn we should try and do a fry swap.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

sounds good, lol although i have few fry and no fish spawning since my female is paralyzed. so i could only do maybe 15 or so fry that i have currently lol.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm making a bit of an assumption - based on experience and scientific data done on other dwarf cichlids from the same areas (apistogramma). Higher temperatures seem to create smaller clutches, smaller eggs and impede the growth of fry.

As mentioned, temperature does effect male:female ratio in some fishes, but I'm unsure as to whether any study has been done on any Mikrogeophagus specifically.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

300 eggs every time so small clutches i guess that is possible but im not sure. impede Fry growth well give me 3 more months and ill let you know . but my fry did mature at 3 months which is 3 months early (apparently), but they sure are still growing. so i can say that with your assuption in mind a few things are true.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

3 months should be about when they "mature", sometimes even becoming sexually mature. A 300 clutch size is the top end for a ram (typically), but it is hard to measure the size and weight of the eggs - sometimes the best indication is the hatch rate and the amount of fry that make it to the free-swimming stage.

I don't want to come across as telling you what to do, just trying to give some ideas based on my experiences. If what you are doing is working, then by all means keep it up!


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

ah ok, i see, lol no worries i don't mind sharing experiences, it just allows us to gain knowledge on both sides lol. I have to say they were spawning at 3 months of age also which caught me off guard. I never knew you bred rams before they are pretty tough to get started after hatching. the best i have done was about 200 fry but i dont wanna get into that too much brine shrimp to worry about lol..


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, if you are going to breed any fish, you might as well get a good system for brine shrimp going. Almost a necessity anywhere.

200 fry is an awesome clutch. I typically have seen anywhere from 100-150 as typical fry numbers. One of my old pairs used to have high clutches around 200-250 for about 6 months in their prime though, so I don't doubt you. Others have claimed clutches as high as 500, but I've never seen that. 

A month down the road, after removing and culling, the realistic fry count usually sits around half that for me, so typically 50-60 nice healthy youngin's.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

so when you say removing and culling how do you see the difference. size? or shape. lol they are still pretty small. and 500 lol that would be crazy .


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Culling usually involves removing those with any noticeable defects, other culling could be to emphasize specific colour traits, although that you would have to wait till they are more mature.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

ah indeed, pretty much what i though then, Thanks KnaveTO.


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## Cory (May 2, 2008)

Culling is an essential part of any good breeder's repertoire. Lack of culling is why so many cruddy looking / deformed fish make it to the fish stores. Fish farms do not cull. 

A lot of times fry with defects will be apparent pretty early on. If you've got bigger fish to feed them to that's a great way to get rid of unwanted fry.


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## flanneryc (Jul 25, 2009)

I had one of my GBR pair lay eggs today..  This is a first for us, and we were so excited as we got to watch the whole process unfold....

Then..... about an hour later, they were gone!!  One of my greedy little Bahia Red's had a meal... The daddy is still guarding the corner too, poor little guy! Momma is happily roaming around the tank, oblivious to what took place.. 

I am not looking to breed necessarily, and the fact that we got eggs was very very cool.. Maybe in a couple more months we will give the Rams their own home at breeding time to see if we can get to wiggler stage..


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Tropicana said:


> so when you say removing and culling how do you see the difference. size? or shape. lol they are still pretty small. and 500 lol that would be crazy .


I find swapping them into different tanks, especially when they are quite young, can lead to a few losses.

Culling is as described - eliminating those that have obvious problems, and sometimes in large numbers of fry, removing some smaller ones to help ensure the strength of the larger and healthier.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Ah, thanks Chris and Cory, and Congrats Flanneryc it is a great ritual to watch.

I had seen Cull be used here many times and knew that it meant kill but i never knew the real description Thanks.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

natural selection at work.....the only diff is that we are "mother nature"..


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Just Tossed in a new photo of a group that was together feeding off the bottom. flash was used. and you can see a Malawi Eye biter fry in the top right which got in the shot.

(at front with other photos)


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## flanneryc (Jul 25, 2009)

BEAUTIFUL little fishy! 

Thanks for sharing Kelly!


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## Letigrama (Jul 6, 2008)

Amazing Rams!
I love Rams. At one point i got like 8 ballon rams, and then one time I got hole in the head disease, and little by little even with treatment all of them die...I swore never again rams!


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