# i think my blue ram might die, help! pls



## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

one of my blue rams is showing signs of death, ive had him for 3 weeks, originally i bought 3 and now im down to two, this one is mimicing the same signs the one who died did, staying near the top of the tank and near the heater, i checked my water parameters and theyre perfect, the tank is well filtered- 75 gallon with a ac110 and ac70, i watch them often and there isnt any signs of stress from the other fish. i dont know whats going on, im hoping i dont find him dead the same way i did the other. if im not mistaken i think this one is the female, i had 2 males 1 female ( suggested by an employee at big als) what can i do?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

What are your water parameters? (ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, pH)

Does the fish show any physical signs of sickness? (clamped fins, tears, bumps, discolouration, etc.)

Is your tank cycled? How long has it been running?

What else is in your tank?

I'd start out with a large water change, 30-50%.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

water parameters are perfect , the tank has been cycled for over a year tank mates are all community fish, glow light tetras, neons , danios, tri coloured sharks, kribensis plenty of room i nthe tank and hiding spots i dont think it has anything to do with the tank mates, i just did a water change a couple days ago 15% im worried another water change might add more stress, dont know if its necessary considering parameters are pristine.


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## clubsoda (Oct 10, 2009)

whats your water temp? monitor the temp


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, what exactly are perfect water parameters for your tank?


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

im using an nutrafin liquid test kit, ph - 7 , ammonia - 0, nitrite 0.1, nitrate 10


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Don87 said:


> im using an nutrafin liquid test kit, ph - 7 , ammonia - 0, *nitrite 0.1,* nitrate 10


These are not perfect water conditions. Anything that is more than 0 on a nitrite test kit indicates that there is something wrong.

I would recommend you carry out a partial water change and continue to monitor your water parameters until both ammonia and nitrite read 0 ppm.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

nitrites are way too high. 

but from what I am reading, it sounds like nitrite poisoning. 

what els is in the tank?

is this one gasping for air at all?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, with that reading it could just as easily be a misreading.

If they are new fish, it could be lots and lots of different things. Impossible to tell without an explanation of more symptoms of the affected fish.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Chris S said:


> Well, with that reading it could just as easily be a misreading.
> 
> If they are new fish, it could be lots and lots of different things. Impossible to tell without an explanation of more symptoms of the affected fish.


+1. That and they're rams, and unless they're wild rams, more likely than not they come from poor breeding stock, and are reared even more poorly. Unfortunately a lot of the Rams sold in stores are pretty crappy.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Actually, a large proportion of rams sold at PJ's, Big Al's and Menagerie are locally bred and very healthy. That doesn't mean to say that they are kept that way once delivered


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

ameekplec. said:


> Unfortunately a lot of the Rams sold in stores are pretty crappy.


Yep, dats fer sher. Not just Blues either, I love my little Bolivian Rams, but they won't be winning any fishy beauty contests any time soon...it's amazing to see the (in)breeding differences between fish of the "same" species.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

it would seem as i woke up to the death of the gbr this morning, i see theres a lot of questions and statements as ive been away for the day and didnt have access to the computer, to start off the temp of the tank was kept at 82 degrees, next is the water paramaters, ive been using the kit and been maintaining the same parameters for over 6 months now with many different species in the tank and havent had any problems except with the gbrs, like stated before here are and have been my parameters; ph -7 , ammonia 0, nitrate 0.1 , nitrite 10 apparently , with the nutrafin test kit everything is measured in mg/l and as all test kits are different im assuming heres what the guidelines are for figuring out your water conditions according to the nutrafin test kit ; nitrite: the colour chart ranges from 0.1 - 3.3 and the booklet states any result close to 0.3 is a safe level of nitrite ( note mine is at 0.1) if its above 0.3 then this indicates that nitrate level is rising which indicates high levels of ammonia, now as for nitrate my reading was 10 mg\l the chart ranges from 5-110 , mine was between 5-10 hard to tell with the colour chart but def not above 10, i just went with 10 to be safe, in the nitrate booklet for evaluating the results it says when nitrate concentrations are above 50mg\l perform a 20% water change


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

nitrate is the least of the worries.

as for what you have said about nitrite. If that test kit states that the safe level of nitrite is 0.3. I would highly suggest just to chuck out that test all together and get a better liquid test kit.

Like I said before and many people also, the *ONLY safe level of nitrite is 0*, so it doesnt matter what measurements your test kit is measuring with (in fact most is not all test kits measure in mg/L).

A nitrate of 10 is safe...in fact nitrate below 40 is a good. Though I keep all of my tanks at 0-5.

The nitrogen cycle:

Ammonia released by rotting food, rotting dead fish/plants etc and released by the fish in their urine and poop.

In a properly cycled tank, the ammonia is converted to nitrite by one set of bacteria. Nitrite is less toxic then ammonia.

The nitrite is then converted to nitrate (least toxic form) by another group of bacteria.

You are getting a 0 ammonia reading means that your bacteria load is able to handle all of the ammonia (notice that there would be a constant release of ammonia and that is balanced by a constant conversion of ammonia to nitrite). If you have rising ammonia levels, your test kit will tell you.

You are having a high nitrite reading. And yes 0.3 is *quite* high. So you dont have enough bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. And hence, slowly poisoning your fish.

The reason why your GBRs are the first to go is because GBRs are quite sensitive to bad water qualities, and by no means a hardy fish.

I completely agree with Chris S on this in that the stock of BAs and Menagerie and PJs in GBRs are actually quite decent. And I would look into other reasons before blaming "faulty fish" from the store.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

my nitrite is 0.1 i was just saying in the booklet from nutrafin it says 0.3 is the start of an increase of nitrite and to do a 20% water change.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

believe me im not looking to be hostile, but id also like the remind u to read through the posts and ull see i never once mentioned the fish being faulty, had i thought so i would have followed different measures rather then recieving advice from the forum.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

increase the frequency of the water changes and the amount to about 30%.....thats pretty much all you can do until nitrite hits 0 again.

and the comment about faulty fish is in response to Ameek and MrFish's comments.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

thanks, i will do that, im alrdy doing water changes and gravel vac once a week and changing 20% of the water, how much more frequent, and also what kit would u suggest? it would seem that there is a lot of confusion deriving from it and id like to continue to get help on this forum and the others with the least confusion.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

hitch i just did another test for nitrite and the tint of purple that represents 0.1 on the chart is much darker then the tint of the test water, so its not 100% clear but not nearly as close to the purple on the chart, im def not an expert or as experienced as you when it comes to keeping fish but am i wrong to think that it was something other then my parameters that caused my fish to die?

also am i wrong to think there would of been an increase of ammonia or nitrate if nitrite was high? im just reading your reply on the ammonia cycle which def cleared things up from me.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

When I had a nitrite spike on one of my tanks, I usually do 2-3 water changes of about 20% a day (having a large bucket of dechlorinated water with a heater in it helped, since the water I add in is the same temp as the water of the tank). Then again, I keep fancy plecos, and they are very sensitive to the slightest of nitrite and ammonia levels. 

the more water changes the better, if you are going to do them very frequently, dont do more than 20%. If you decide to do them less frequently, 30% is a good guideline.

as for test kit, Go with a API master test kit. It costs anywhere from 35-40 dollars for the kit and it tests of pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. And it would last you at least a year...or if you are like me and use them like no tomorrow on all of my tanks....lasts me about 5 months.

and yes the colour comparison can be a huge pain in the ass....I have a high power white light...so I usually put the tube in that light and get an idea. I find the nitrite test is the easiest to read, since the 0 reading has that distinctive bright almost neon looking blue. 

As for other possible causes of death. They are a little less likely. Its not due to acclimation problems since you would have seen death within the first 24-36 hours. It doesnt look like aggression, since you would def notice if its aggression caused. You would have seen disease symptoms at the 3 week mark. Usually, most of the aquarium deaths is due to ammonia or nitrite. And since GBRs are quite sensitive to them, I am more inclined to think its the nitrite that did it in. There are possibilities like viral/bacterial/parasidal causes that shows no symptoms, but they are less likely, and I would usually only jump to that conclusion if all other possibilities are crossed out.

as for the cycle. There is/was definitely an increase. As soon as you add 1 fish to a tank, you are adding that 1 fish's ammonia/bio load. That is why if you put too many fish into an aquarium at once, you will cause ammonia and nitrite spikes even when the filter is cycled. This isnt too much of a worry if you are just adding a few fish, since the filter can handle a small increase in bio load.

If you add fish and the ammonia/nitrite spikes, then you know you just added too many fish at the same time. The end product of the cycle is nitrate, which slowly accumulate in the aquarium. ok, there are bacteria that convert nitrate (still toxic, but just the least toxic of the 3) to nitrogen gas (harmless), but these bacteria are anaerobic and most wouldnt be able to provide an environment for the nitrate converting bacteria. This is one of the reasons why we do water changes, do manually remove nitrate.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

I do agree with all the reasons towords water conditions but as i have experienced for rams stress sounds like the killer. the water conditions aren't that bad really. But The kribs are extremely aggressive and protective of there territory's and being the rams are new kids on the block they are unable to feel safe and there for stress out at the top of the tank.

When i started up my 180gal i only had 2 male rams and a female like you.. I introduced the smaller male thinking he would make a territory and relax a bit then the female and the larger male. after observation the larger male was harassing the smaller male of course he submitted but it only took 3 days in established waters for the dull coloured small and scared male to die. There were no physical marks on the fish at all. Also having 2 males to one female is a horrible idea for any Cichlid unless you want behavior that can stress and cause potential disease. The only reason i did this was considering the 12ft footprint of the aquarium. 

Hope this helps. I only speak from experience and i have also tried the Kribs and rams before. Krib > GBram for hostility. kribs are also African.


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## Don87 (Dec 9, 2009)

actually i added the kribs recently, the gbrs have in been in before, my tank is 75 gallons and ive got tons of granite and some live plants they hardly meet, i dont think the kribs bothered them at all to be honest, and i do spend a lot of time infront of the tank watching them lol.... the first gbr died even before the kribs were introduced, and the kribs are smaller then the rams too atm.... thanks for all the input though, that definetly makes sense though about the cichlid aggresion but i havent seen any yet


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