# Toronto Zoo



## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

A few sad pics of African cichlids at the zoo as we were discussing at the M&G. Hopefully the corals and SW fish a few years after those renos do not meet the same fate.

From afar it looks good:









Upon closer inspection:


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

those fish look so chewed up and cruddy.. 

Like.. it looks like they have been repeatedly knawed on, healed.. and chewed on again. They just dont have the right look beside the shitty fins..

Thats.. after a reno?... sad sad sad.. I would be ashamed to tell people to visit the zoo.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

It is images like these that I find most disturbing. Over stocked aquariums in people homes are one thing but this is even more so disturbing because it is maintained by someone who is supposed to be an expert in their field. I think that this is where we as a body could write to the zoo and point out their obvious problems. And not just to the dept head but the head of the zoo as the department head is to blame for such conditions.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Even though Ive seen it in person so many times and talked to the 'experts' in question. I still don't believe 100% that its possible for anyone to screw up aquariums to that extent... that zoo is horrid.


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## Bellboy263 (Jan 23, 2007)

*Sad but true*

It is really sad and off course as lovers of fish it is only right to do what KnaveTO said let the Zoo heads know


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Ok, sit down, gab a box of Kleenex and look at these.

Feeding time:



















Flake-fed Piscivore










Look at the general condition, the eyes










Nice for public display










This is pathetic



















A 6 year + Tinfoil.....yes it IS a Tinfoil










A Silver (Bala) shark, same age










which should of course look like....










_Puntius arulias_










*MY* _Puntius arulias_










Red-tailed Black Shark










_Puntius filamentosus_










*MY* _Puntius filamentosus_










And a happy picture to end because these fish seemed VERY happy.....and she wanted to move them to the tank with the barbs  Could still do with a lot more bulk on it though.










Martin.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

We should make another thread about this.

Just reinforcing that we aren't here to bash/flame the zoo, just pointing out the short comings of the fish that they display.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

Should contact Tommy Mason. He's a herp curator and also a member of Durham club.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, can you split the thread Jess?

Martin.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm told that Tom seems (allegedly)to be just putting in time there in a state of apathy with the whole thing. I don't know, I've not met him.

The main problem as I see it is the logistical nightmare of having all your aquatic exhibits spread in pavilions all over the shop. It precludes any kind of centralized filter system and probably increases unit cost per big tank to do the job properly and therefore they're getting away with minimal water-maintenance equipment.

Yet the curator tells us that money isn't a problem Maintenance must be a big nightmare and labour-intensive. The whole thing needs centralization and basically a dedicated building. Big bucks, but with the right design they could have a world-leading exhibit.

I remember as a kid growing up in England watching Desmond Morris's "Zoo Quest". They visited the world's zoos and TO was regarded as being virtually at the pinnacle of great zoos. Before the city took it over...... 

Martin.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Being new to Toronto and well Canada in general I've yet to get to the Zoo but I'm considering volunteering there until my work visa goes through. Maybe my marine science degree will finally be put to good use and I can do a hostile takeover in the aquarium section little by little.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Actually they do use a fair number of volunteers or so I have heard, and with such a degree as you have I would think they would jump at the chance of getting a volunteer such as yourself.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

KnaveTO said:


> Actually they do use a fair number of volunteers or so I have heard, and with such a degree as you have I would think they would jump at the chance of getting a volunteer such as yourself.


Awww thanks, they'd be happy until I took over the place and started filling it with sharks lol. I'm a shark lover/diver.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

LOL Katalyst, you're really fun to read.

Yeah, a while back, I was thinking about donating some of my zebra plecos to the zoo and was wondering if I can help them start up a pleco tank for display and introduce the world of exotic plecos for Torontonians to see. But have seen the quality of the cichlid tank, I've changed my mind. I still remember seeing that black shark from last year. I am a bit supprised that it's still alive. Poor thing...

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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Maybe we can plan a GTAA trip to the zoo sometime before the summer ends?


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Zebrapl3co said:


> LOL Katalyst, you're really fun to read.
> 
> Yeah, a while back, I was thinking about donating some of my zebra plecos to the zoo and was wondering if I can help them start up a pleco tank for display and introduce the world of exotic plecos for Torontonians to see. But have seen the quality of the cichlid tank, I've changed my mind. I still remember seeing that black shark from last year. I am a bit supprised that it's still alive. Poor thing...


Thanks! You have zebra's????? Wow!!!  Do you have any for sale????


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

> Thanks! You have zebra's????? Wow!!! Do you have any for sale????


Back off there girl... I have been here longer and looking forward to some myself


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian said:


> Maybe we can plan a GTAA trip to the zoo sometime before the summer ends?


Everyone bring something to stab yourself in the eyes with


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

KnaveTO said:


> Back off there girl... I have been here longer and looking forward to some myself


Wow all I have to do is mention zebra's and it gets ugly fast.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Pablo said:


> Everyone bring something to stab yourself in the eyes with


LOL I find myself wanting to do that everytime I go to one of the breeders I buy from...No matter how many tanks he has I always find myself gravitating to the $400 and up tank, which of course would get me killed.


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## Fish Dude (Oct 31, 2006)

Where are the animal rights activists when you need them?

That is some seriously shoddy aquarium maintenance. You would think that an organization like a zoo would be more in-tune with the well being of the animals in their exhibits.

Absolutely disgraceful.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

From the meeting that Pablo and I had with them I would say that "in-tune" is not exactly where they're at. It was like we were at the first stage interview performances for Canadian Idol. People so convinced of their talents that the fact they can't sing escapes them. Dyslexic song-writers too I bet.

We were warned before we went, but the reality was suprising to the point where I think the warnings were_ grossly_ understated.

I truly believe that the only way to institute real changes of true benefit to the aquatic exhibits is to approach the CEO directly with a really well produced document showing what is wrong. From that point, you just have to hope that the problems do not come from the top and that you will be listened to and enabled to enter into some meaningful consultation with them.

Without seeing the behind the scenes infrastructure one can only hazard a guess at what systems changes are required. All we can guess at is totally inefficient filtration systems and pityful water turnover in most exhibits. Open access to that stuff and an ear willing to accept honest opinion and advice is what is required. Once acceptance of the deficiencies is accepted then a will to change it and allocation of funds is the next step.

Their feeding program quite obviously needs a complete shake-up. They feed flake because "it's free" (sponsored), yet claim that money is not a problem.

Even given a willingness to accept criticism, I don't pretend that changes would be made overnight. I foresee a long drawn out program, or at worst blank refusal to accept criticism with an open mind.

Martin.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Well I think a vist as an outing for GTA might be a good idea. Furthermore I do have contacts at city hall and if the zoo is a city funded organization I know a few councillors that might be willing to listen should that approach be necessary.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Fishdude, Absolutely disgraceful. is a perfect way of putting it. Katalyst I said bring something to stab yourself in the eye because its absolutely disgusting.

The biggest problem I see is that I for one refuse to give that hole that calls itself a zoo any more of my money, much less to go see the fish. A zoo that feeds a giant shrimp carrot sticks isn't a place I'm going to support.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Pablo said:


> Fishdude, Absolutely disgraceful. is a perfect way of putting it. Katalyst I said bring something to stab yourself in the eye because its absolutely disgusting.
> 
> The biggest problem I see is that I for one refuse to give that hole that calls itself a zoo any more of my money, much less to go see the fish. A zoo that feeds a giant shrimp carrot sticks isn't a place I'm going to support.


Well I've never been there and am going on Sunday and I'll be sure to give them an earful...


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

I think the only way to effect change at that zoo is via some kind of hostile takeover.

_""Hello?""_

"We have your hydrologist"


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

I'd support them because as horrible as their fish conditions may be, they still keep a lot of other animals to the best of their abilities and if it wasn't for them... I wouldn't be able to see a lion or a snow tiger up close, in real-life.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Pablo said:


> I think the only way to effect change at that zoo is via some kind of hostile takeover.
> 
> _""Hello?""_
> 
> "We have your hydrologist"


It why I was thinking of volunteering there...Forget kidnapping the hydrologist, someone needs to stick him/her on a slow boat to china or something.


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## JamesG (Feb 27, 2007)

It's rather funny/bizarrely coincidental that my friend who knows nothing of fish, aside from the fact I have a living room consuming tank, sent me the same picture of the cichlid tank at the zoo. 

If it is any consolation to anyone, I was just on a trip to Niagara Falls with my girlfriend and at the entrance to the Aviary they had a fantastic malawi cichlid tank that was home to a small number of very healthy looking fish. There were also a few babies swimming about and exploring a well maintained home. 

For the sake of the discussion here about the problems with the Toronto Zoo, I present the following facts:

- The aviary in which this tank is housed, as well as being a huge home for a lot of exotic birds, is run by the Niagara Parks, which receives ZERO taxpayer dollars. It has been that way since the late 80s, as per their own brochures and the info on the back of the aviary ticket.

- The Toronto Zoo is taxpayer funded/subsidized and as such is governed by the same bureaucracy that allows garbage to pile up on the sidewalks and that refuses to remove the pile of needles in the Rosedale ravine behind my building. 

In my mind the solution is simple, but I only get one vote.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Brian said:


> I'd support them because as horrible as their fish conditions may be, they still keep a lot of other animals to the best of their abilities and if it wasn't for them... I wouldn't be able to see a lion or a snow tiger up close, in real-life.


Sure you can! You can walk with lions, tigers, elephants. And horseback with giraffes! Granted it takes a certian lunacy factor to walk around with lions and no guns but I'm still here to write about it. 

And even get frisked by elephants for snacks.  
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http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m103/katalyst_x/P7090115.jpg


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Ha Kat those are great! 

It must be so awesome to dive with sharks..


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Closest thing I have ever done is snorkel with stingrays... mind you that was a lot of fun.

Anyway I know there are some people on here that would not rather give the Toronto Zoo any more money. I say we go as an entourage pay the admission and get as much photographic evidence as we can get and then present them with it... i.e. your tanks and fish look like this and they should look like this, sort of thing. If the zoo does not want to listen, I am not kidding, I will contact the few city councillors I know and request a meeting with them to discuss the unhealthy and incorrect conditions at the zoo and ask that something be done about it. When presenting such to the city you just know what buttons to push to be able to get them to listen. When you start mentioning the loss of tourist dollars and the like due to issues such as that their ears perk up.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

MT-ED said:


> I'm told that Tom seems (allegedly)to be just putting in time there in a state of apathy with the whole thing. I don't know, I've not met him.
> 
> The main problem as I see it is the logistical nightmare of having all your aquatic exhibits spread in pavilions all over the shop. It precludes any kind of centralized filter system and probably increases unit cost per big tank to do the job properly and therefore they're getting away with minimal water-maintenance equipment.
> 
> ...


I used to work at the Regent's Park Zoo in London during the weekends during my student days in the 60's.
I started in the parrot house and graduated to apes. It was very interesting at that time. Guy the gorilla was alive at that time. I used to spend my break time feeding him.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

That's so cool Moon. I remember visiting when I was a kid and Guy was there then.

Martin.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Now now, lets not get overly excited just yet. Right now, all we have is speculations, rumours and bad impressions. We need not call for the headsmen yet.
If I remember correctly, I think the zoo makes their own fish food. The recipe was shared form other zoos around the world. This is from one of the "Daniel Cook" episode (Kids show for 3 - 6 yrs old). The facility and filtration system seems OK. I think the problem with the cichlid tank is over stock. Some of their fish comes from people donating unwanted fish to the zoo. So it may not be the zoo keeper's neglect.
Maintenance may be another factor as it's difficult to maintain a tank of that size. Obviously, they don't look like they have been putting that much effort into keep the tank clean.
Water parameters may be another issue.
We need to go into this with an open mind. If we go in with a set mind to bring them down, you might be supprised that you mind just easily succeed.
Let's not blunder around like our politicians. We are aquarist after all. And that makes us much more than a politician. 

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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

The zoo makes their own food in some situations. Its crapp. 
Mostly they use Hagen flake.

Thumbs up


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Nah ZebraPl3co, I wrote a full report with recommendations and request for further access last November based on Pablo and I sitting down and talking with the Curator and two of her team.

We did an unescorted tour of the pavilions but did not get to see any of the behind the scenes support equipment......but I know virtually zero water movement when I see it.
I did not present the report as I had some pressing personal issues happen and I had to drop it.

But I'm inclined to pick it up again. I have a lot more photographic evidence and it's all set out in a report with pictures of healthy specimens of the same species.

Unless you've actually spoken with these people you have no idea what you're dealing with....seriously.

Martin.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Pablo said:


> The zoo makes their own food in some situations. Its crapp.
> Mostly they use Hagen flake.
> 
> Thumbs up


Where you puttin' those thumbs?

Martin.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

MT-ED said:


> Where you puttin' those thumbs?
> 
> Martin.


The same place the zoo staff have their heads 

tee hee.

Honestly though guys Martin makes a good point there. You have no idea.

Picture a fifth grade class being taken on a field trip to the zoo and then being informed that not only are they being abandoned there, they're also now responsible for all the fish and invertebrates in the place.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Ciddian said:


> Ha Kat those are great!
> 
> It must be so awesome to dive with sharks..


Thanks ciddian I've been diving with them since I was about 17. What I wish I could do for a living but there's very little money in it unless you are already rich or can get a grant for research. So now its a hobby, my travel is usually solely based on shark activity. Which brings me to South Africa as often as I can afford to go.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I haven't been to the zoo in a number of years, but I have visited the fish lab, and it is immaculate, and well looked after. From talking to one of the techs who works in there, and hearing his regimen, lack of knowledge is not a problem. A number of captive breeding programs are going on there.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Well we weren't allowed access to that so can only base opinion on what we saw and the conversation we had with the curator. We asked questions and got such off the wall answers that I couldn't look at Pablo because I think we might have started to laugh.
When a curator proudly tells you that an aquarium turns over it's water capacity twice an hour and _clearly_ believes that is adequate, you have to start wondering what's up. When a suggestion about providing a darker substrate is made and you are told that it's _impossible_ to get something like that, yet you personally know several places you could go to to get such stuff straight away, you have to wonder if they have any idea about keeping fish.
Beyond all that, the evidence up front in the public eye is devastating if you really know fish. I would truly love to see what goes on behind the scenes. All we saw was malnutrition and numerous problems caused by bad quality water.
I've worked in the trade in the past and kept fish for 42 years and I've never seen _anything_ this bad.

Martin.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

MT-ED said:


> Well we weren't allowed access to that so can only base opinion on what we saw and the conversation we had with the curator. We asked questions and got such off the wall answers that I couldn't look at Pablo because I think we might have started to laugh.
> When a curator proudly tells you that an aquarium turns over it's water capacity twice an hour and _clearly_ believes that is adequate, you have to start wondering what's up. When a suggestion about providing a darker substrate is made and you are told that it's _impossible_ to get something like that, yet you personally know several places you could go to to get such stuff straight away, you have to wonder if they have any idea about keeping fish.
> Beyond all that, the evidence up front in the public eye is devastating if you really know fish. I would truly love to see what goes on behind the scenes. All we saw was malnutrition and numerous problems caused by bad quality water.
> I've worked in the trade in the past and kept fish for 42 years and I've never seen _anything_ this bad.
> ...


My personal favourite was "We noticed they did better when we switched them from freshwater to saltwater mysis shrimp" (seahorses"

I remember thinking "NO ******* WAAAAY"


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

KnaveTO, I sent you a PM.

Martin.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

This is the best thing about this hobby of ours. Get to meet lots of interesting people.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

Alright then lets see about setting up a Toronto Zoo visit for sometime in Late August or September. Can we get a poll running with multiple choices to be able to select a date for this? I would recomend a Saturday as will give us lots of time to visit and possibly chat with the staff about how things are now.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm ok in August and the 1st Sept. The next 3 Saturdays then are no-nos though because I have visitors over from England.

Martin.


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## KnaveTO (May 13, 2007)

I would be good for any Saturday in September. The last Saturday in August I am in NYC for a friends 50th birthday!


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