# Hello, everyone. Question on lighting here.



## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

Hello, everyone. My name is Wes, and I live in Whitby.

I recently got a 50g tank, Hagen, right off the shelf, for 50$ (on clearance). The footprint is 36" by 16", and 20" tall.
I'm buying a stand for it, and plan to have a piece of plexiglass cut for a lid. Now, I have a question. For simple plants (e.g. Japanese Moss Balls, Weeping Moss, that's probably it), do I need CO2 injection? Do I need to fertalize? I know that I can just use sand for substrate, due to the non-rooted nature of the plants. Also, my main question:
CAN I buy some cheap clamp-light fixtures at Home Depot, and some expensive plant lights at PetSmart/Big Al's, and just use those? Also, what "K" range of lighting do I get for sunlight-esque colour? I want about 2.5 WPG, so 150 watts total. Maybe three 50W Compact Fluorescent.

How does this look? Also, has anyone ever purchased plants/equipment from AQUATICMAGIC? They seem legit to me.

Thanks!
~Wes


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Hi and welcome to the forum Wes!

A few answers.

Yes, you can use play sand from home depot. But I think fi you're already looking at a few plants, you'll probably want more in the future, so you're better off to go with flourite or eco-complete, which are substrates for planted tanks. I think a member here xbrandonx used playsand in his planted tank, but I think he has to fertilize a lot in order to keep the plants happy. You'll save a few bcks initially, but you'll probably spend more on fertilizers. Even if plants aren't rooted, they still draw nutrients. In fact, most aquatic plants only use roots to anchor themselves, and a lot of nutrient export happens in the stems and leaves.

No, you don't need CO2 for all mosses (I have fissidens fontanus, x-mas moss and weeping moss all under non-CO2). Just keep high light and high stocking, and you won't need exogenous supplementation. The CO2 will help to keep the weeping morphology though - I have some in non-CO2 and it's decidedly not weepy.

Go with T5 lights and not power compacts. At the same wattage, the T5s give off more PAR (photosynthetic activated radiation, or light useful for photosynthesis).

Also, instead of shopping pets mart or Big Als (BA), check out other local retailers:
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138

Also, there are a number of good online retailers:
petsandponds.com, mops.ca, jlaquatics.com among others.

As for aquatic magic, I have personally not ordered from them, but I have heard some people get products from them that were poorly packaged and damaged on delivery, but items were replaced promptly. Pretty cheap, so I might give them a try.

And welcome to the forum!!


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## sawman88 (Sep 29, 2008)

nice score on the new 50 for $50. i use like a riverbottom gravel for my planted tank i was considering eco-complete but at $25 for 18lbs i decided not to.. i have a home made canopy with 2 t-12 shoplights that i scored off the side of the road. i think T-8's do the same thing but with a fraction of the energy cost and i think they are about the same $$$. I used to have DYI co2 but i stoped using it after i allmost killed my fish with it... (i dont reccomend DYI co2 if you have precious fish in your tank.. ) i dont use Ferts but its heavially stocked with about 20 neons and verious other fish. I guess my tank is a low tec and it works fine. but amplek is right.. your not going to want 1 or 2 plants... so its good to prepare. if you REALLY like the look of a sand tank. i have heard of people putting down a substrate and then a thin layer of sand on top just for looks. but i dont really know how that works out. but with no ferts no co2 and 4 t12 shop lights i get pretty good growth. about once a month i can take clippings and make new plants or take them to auction. if i went high tec i could prolly take clippings liek twice a month if not more.. 









at the time of the tank its was a lil overgrown and in need of some desprate trimming.


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

I am using riverbottom pea gravel and wish I had eco-complete or flourite. I need to fertilise regularily, I use jobes plant stakes. (small 1/4 inch fragments in key spots) But that's not lights... 

I have purchased from Aquaticmagic. my purchases came in sturdy little boxes and were fine. They were both glassware. points against Aquaticmagic is they seem hella slow. Could be the nature of it being across the planet. As for purchasing plants.... I'd not buy plants from them. There is a very strong possibility it'll get opened at customs and you could lose your plants. 

Most of us on the board can hook you up with some greenery and you'd get it within 3 days, likely less.


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## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

Wow! Thank you all so much for responding so quickly! I wasn't expecting a reply for a few days, much less all three!
Thank you for making me feel welcome here at GTAA. Whitby kid, born and raised. 
Okay, so about the lighting. Maybe I'm just having a slow day, or can't read, but ARE the Home Depot clamp-lights suitable for holding T5 bulbs? I'd really rather not splurge my crappy paycheck on a lighting unit, if I can get the same effects for 10$ of lighting fixtures, and then just add bulbs.
Also, about substrate. My plans for the tank were to set up a piece of driftwood with Weeping Moss tied to it like a large tree, and then have the Moss Balls drifting around it. A nice carpet of moss would be nice, and I hear it's easy to do. However, I LOVE dojo loaches. I want one, and this means that I need non-sharp substrate, or sand, AND water teperature around 75F. I plan on making my carpet out of numerous pieces of Moss-Mesh-Stuff.
What is the texture of Eco-Complete? Does it break down over time, and does it change water chemistry? 

Basically, I need the breakdown of stuff I need. The peeps at my LFSs aren't too expert on plants, but they're nice enough to admit it. So basically, here's my impression of what I need:
1. A tank stand. That would be excellent, BA's has one I like for $129.99.
2. Lights. I'm thinking 3wpg, as I'm not growing anything too light-intensive.
3. Substrate. I'm still sketchy on the details of this. Eco-Complete is expensive, but is it the best? What's the texture like? Does it become a paste; does it change water chemistry?
4. Plants. I plan for low-medium light plants.
5. (Optional) CO2. I'll throw in a diffuser/counter if I order from AQMagic, as they seem to have good prices. If I need it, I'll use it.
6. Flourish Excel. Good thing? Bad thing? Necessary for nice moss growth?
7. Fish. Do you think a couple Clown Plecos would butcher my mosses?
8. Time. Apparently, Weeping Moss grows SLOWLY.

LENGTHY POST. Sorry. 
Thanks!
~Wes


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

_Basically, I need the breakdown of stuff I need. The peeps at my LFSs aren't too expert on plants, but they're nice enough to admit it. So basically, here's my impression of what I need:
1. A tank stand. That would be excellent, BA's has one I like for $129.99.
2. Lights. I'm thinking 3wpg, as I'm not growing anything too light-intensive.
3. Substrate. I'm still sketchy on the details of this. Eco-Complete is expensive, but is it the best? What's the texture like? Does it become a paste; does it change water chemistry?
4. Plants. I plan for low-medium light plants.
5. (Optional) CO2. I'll throw in a diffuser/counter if I order from AQMagic, as they seem to have good prices. If I need it, I'll use it.
6. Flourish Excel. Good thing? Bad thing? Necessary for nice moss growth?
7. Fish. Do you think a couple Clown Plecos would butcher my mosses?
8. Time. Apparently, Weeping Moss grows SLOWLY._

Lets see what I can answer.

1. Sounds good to me. that choice is personal.
2. 3 watts per gallon really needs co2 injection and a good ferts regime. I just got a pressurised system off ameekplec, great guy. I recommend him highly. 
3. I am not sure if they change chemistry, but I have heard that it doesn't. Geo-systems (some stuff I use from the local petsmart) does. Its great for plants and I wish I had the $$ at the time I set my tank up. would be great.
4. Low medium plants, perhaps its best to go about 2 watts per gallon. Which is about what I am running. 
5. Co2 is great helps the growth big time. I used a DIY myself and had a diffuser. worked even better when... 
6. ...I used excel. Some mosses apprently do not like it. fissidens comes to mind, but on some forums they say you can get it used to excel by slowly dosing it. Vals are another plant that is sort of not excel happy. Other than that, I think my java and weeping/tiwan rather liked it. 
7. I have no idea. Ameekplec may know. 
8. Time is important. I know the feeling of impatience. you plant a tank and you want it to look fantastic immediately. it takes time... And then you wish it would slow down. my weeping moss isn't weeping yet. But it looks pretty. It might need better light, I am not sure what will make it happy.

We are a happy and helpful bunch here. Nice people. I haven't yet found a person I don't like which is good because there are a few boards I've been on in the past where they are nasty and hostile. We are a fishy bunch....watch the salties  they'll try to convert you to the deep side.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Plaid said:


> 1. A tank stand. That would be excellent, BA's has one I like for $129.99.
> 2. Lights. I'm thinking 3wpg, as I'm not growing anything too light-intensive.
> 3. Substrate. I'm still sketchy on the details of this. Eco-Complete is expensive, but is it the best? What's the texture like? Does it become a paste; does it change water chemistry?
> 4. Plants. I plan for low-medium light plants.
> ...


Sunstar covered most of those, but here's my take:
1. Tank stand. Premade ones are great as they're easy, do the job, and look pretty fit usually. You can usually find cheap ones on kijiji or pricenetwork.ca (join this site, a lot of aquarium stuff classifieds).

2. If you're going to spend money on anything in your planted tank, it's substrate and lights. If you buy crappy lights, then it'll be a lesson learned. For a good light check these T5 lights made by Coralife:
http://www.petsandponds.com/securestore/c293075p16890095.2.html
This will be sufficient for a non-CO2 enriched tank growing low - med light plants. You can do 3 wpg (I have a 65W light over a 20g), but you have to be more in control of growth rates, plant selection and know your growth rates and signs of nutrient deficiency - in short, go with a lower wattage fixture to avoid problems.

3. Go with eco-complete. If I do any more planted tanks, they will be 100% eco-complete. The grain will not harm anything. It will settle so that the finer particles settle to lower levels, while larger grains will come to the top for a natural stratification of the substrate.

4. check out plantedtank.net for their plant guide. If you're interested in getting plants from members here (as many have), check out the classified ads here. I believe Calmer is from your neck of the woods, and I think he has plants for sale (Free bump!). As sunstar mentioned, I also sell plants from my tanks, so if you're interested, keep an eye on the classifieds or pm.

5. CO2. I would go no CO2 or excel for the first bit to get you used to the maintenance of a planted tank, and get you used to interpreting signs of health and disease as well as trouble shooting some issues related to planted tanks. Then once you're comfortable, get the CO2 going either DIY (cheap) or pressurized (At least $150 - $200 for a used system, expect to pay more for a good one).

6. Don't need excel for moss growth. I have christmas moss looking good under those T5's I mentioned earlier about 12" below the lights. But excel/CO2 certainly help with growing mosses.

7. Clown plecos will mess with your moss on the wood. Why? They eat wood. They'll rasp away at the wood, so unless the moss is established and firmly attached to the wood, there's a good chance it won't take a hold.

8. See 6. No co2 will slow growth considerably, but it will grow.

HTH


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## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

Alright! Thanks again!
Once again, faster responses that I expected. 
Okay, I'll definately buy the good lightbulbs. And fixture. You're all right, I need to spend the money to get the good stuff.
Hey, I got the aquarium for $150 off. I'll fill in the difference with some nice plants and substrate.
I think 2wpg would be fine, in retrospect. I'll get the diffuser in case I need it, and it's only 10$. Shipping is apparently free from AQMagic.

EDITED OUT

And is Eco-Complete safe for digging fish? I love Weather Loaches, so I need a soft substrate. And really, if my moss isn't anchored in the substrate, do I NEED a good substrate? I know the chemicals leech into the water and supply the moss with nutrients, but is it really NECESSARY?

Also, I have no credit card, or PayPal. Is there anyone willing to accept a cheque? Anyone selling Red Cherry Shrimp, maybe? They're pretty cool, and breed a lot. Hopefully a Dojo Loach wouldn't eat them.

Thanks again!
~Wes

*EDIT* T5 is a tube, I went to that website... My bad.


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

If you look at enough aquaticmagic, the free shipping is the same price as shippping. It's just a gimmick. 

I have cherry shrim. give me a few weeks, I might beable to get you some. you should let your tank cycle first as teh ammonia/nitrites will wipe them out in short order.


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## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

Oh, thanks!
However, the shrimp are a no-go until I set the tank up, which is a no-go until I get the stand, which is a no-go until I get my dad's permission to set up the tank, which is a bit tough. Thanks for letting me know you're willing to sell some, I'll pm you when I've got the tank set up and cycled.

I'm not sure I understand. The T5 lights by Coralife (36", like my tank. Unless 36" is the length of the tubes, and I go a size down, to 24"?) are only 21W each. 41 watts? That's less than 1wpg! Does the T5-ness of the lights change the WPG ideas? I am confused! 

Thanks?
~Wes

PS, I'm checking out Price Network. Yay Canada!


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

the fixture should be the length of your tank, or just enough to fit on it. I use simply hoods. they're about 29 inches long, the tubes are 24 inches long. So the tubes are probably smaller. It gets confusing. 

I'll be up to my earlobes in shrimp shortly.


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## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

All right!
Are you actively breeding the shrimp, or do they just... do their thing? 
Okay, so a 36" lighting fixture fits a 36" tank. Makes sense, so it prolly has
29" lights, or similar. So IS 42 Watts of T5 light enough to keep Weeping Moss alive? I thought I'd need at least 100watts, am I wrong here?


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

They simply do their thing. there are shrimp I would like to breed, but I can't seem to find some males for them.


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## Plaid (Nov 10, 2008)

RAWG
I just wrote out a huge post, then hit "back." So I'm going to be a little bit direct with this post.

Okay everyone, let's have some (maybe) fun.

The tank is 36Long by 16Wide by 20Tall, for a total of 50 US Gallons. I want to use T5 lights(thank you, everyone), and I only really want to grow low-med light plants. I don't want to use CO2, or any voodoo-fertilizers/layered-substrate.

You've got $500-ish to spend, and you need...

A lid (to keep jump-happy fish from dying unhappy deaths). The lid can be very simple, even just a piece of 1/2" glass...
Lighting (again, T5, and low-medium light.) ameekplec reccomended something like _THIS_, and it's pretty nice. * Are the bulbs that come with it too weak, or is the low wattage okay?*...
And substrate! Straight-up Eco-Complete? How many lbs for a 2" layer?
_*EDIT* And a heater and filter! Drilling the tank is not an option._

And that's it! What would you buy?


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## Sunstar (Jul 29, 2008)

500 dollars.... 

I would get... all the goodies you won't here  O jave co2, so that is not factored in.

Tank, lets say 50 gallons and a stand, canopy to boot..., no lets not get that. Lets get a good light system, not sure how much that would be, 150 bucks at least and substrate heater and filter.... OKAY I probably exceeded 500 dollars, but I get some of that second hand. The aquarium has a decent canopy of plants, I'll let a lotus or lilly surface and or use a wad of ricca. 

There is a substrate calculator... I can't remember where, but you tell it your dimenstions and depth, it'll tell you how many bags you should use. I think Seachem site has this.


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## Riceburner (Mar 14, 2008)

and if you can avoid it at all....don't use plexi for a top. I've tried everything up to 1/2" and eventually it warps. I go with custom cut glass now.


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## sawman88 (Sep 29, 2008)

3wpg may have been correct for t12 lights.. im not 100% sure but a T8 uses like 30% less power to create the same aobut of light and a T5 uses like 50% less power.. or something... its on here somewhere.


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