# Looking for Advice for SW Noob



## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm considering doing a small saltwater setup (15 or 20 gallons). I've done some reading about setup and cycling and stuff as I have zero experience with saltwater, but want to give it a try. So just looking for some advice, and past experiences from others.


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

No specifics areas you need to know about?

If not, then I suggest grabbing a book.  "The Marine Reef Aquarium" by Philip Hunt is a good resource, but no affordable books are a complete resource on their own.


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## brapbrapboom (Sep 2, 2009)

Been wanting to do SW as well but theres just too much to learn  lol! And eqipments are costly as well  maybe next year ill try my luck


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Another good book to get started with is, "The Simple Guide to Marine Aquariums" by Jeff Kurtz.


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## bioload (Oct 20, 2009)

Start off with a simple FOWLR, not much to it. I've run a FOWLR on an aquaclear with carbon, and normal flourescent for a couple years.

Once comfortable then soft corals, LPS, and SPS if you like. I find this will allow you to spread out equipment requirments/costs over time if that is an issue.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks for the tips.  I started setting it up today. I've decided to do a FO setup to start. I'll post updates as I go ^^


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

yeah absolutely, I agree with bioload. It is a misconception that salt water is a lot more money then fresh. Fish only tanks can be done for little more then the equivalent fresh water tank.

All you need is a 
*test kit* - API's slat master kit is $30
*a hydrometer* - $14
*some salt* - 50 gal instant ocean mix is $20 tax in and after the tank is running you are only using salt at the rate of the volume of water changes you are doing. So on a 40 gal do 5 gals weekly in which case your spending $20 every 10 weeks on salt. Buy the 160 gal mix buckets for under $50 and that is 32 weeks of water changes.
*substrate* my personal fav is CarribSea Seaflor. 40lb bag is $>$40
*some rock* but it doesn't hae to be live rock, me and everyone under the sun is selling that eco-rock for $3 per lb and it looks great. 40lb box of the stuff sells for $114
and recycle your fresh water filter(s), heater, aquarium, etc.
optional, but nice, is a protein skimmer but you can run a ad looking for a used packpack style and usually get them for under $100

For fish start with the Damsels/Chromis which are usually $7 or $8 each and are massively under rated in the hobby. They are very... durable fish and some of them are beautiful, especially schools of them. They do get aggressive when they get bigger but it takes time and they are no worse them most african cichlids. I love Domino Damsels (although they do get quite mean eventually so buy little ones), Yellow Tails and the Green Chromis look pretty cool in small schools of 5 or 6. Flesh it out with a variety of invertebrates and you got a cool tank. Some simple corals/anemones like several of the mushrooms do not require much in the way of lights or very much light.

The problem with salt is not that it is expensive or complex, it is that once you are involved there are so many options that people voluntarily make it expensive and/or complex. Make no mistake though, it is your choice whether it gets out of control or not. A 40 or 50 gal salt water fish aquarium can be much cooler then any, but the most extreme freshwater fish tanks, and only cost marginally more.

I have a nice 90 gallon predator tank in a nice stand with canopy that I run off of a canister filter for instance. Entire setup with a brand new aquarium and $1200 stand/canopy cost me around $800 including the fish, substrate and roughly 90lbs of rock. Fish consist of a 6 inch Clown Trigger, 6 inch FoxFace, 7 inch Blue Spot Grouper and 7 inch Lion Fish. (also included 4.5 inch dogface puffer but I sold him to a friend)

Now I am a store but I didn't get those deals because I'm store. Most of what I quoted you is the retail cost I sell the stuff for. Some items like the canister, substrate, some of the rock and fish I got got deals on because I called first and showed up on time with cash in one hand and buckets in the other.

I'm aways away from you but you just have to look around and find a small shop like mine that offers smoking deals on new stuff and grab as much used as you can and you will be amazed how cheap it can be.

It is worth it trust me. I did freshwater for 25 years and here is a pic of my last fresh watertank and I don't miss it at all.









this is what it looked like when I started stocking it


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## Cintax (Jun 16, 2011)

+1 to wild.

Also, very nice in wall setup... is there a marine tank there now?


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

Cintax said:


> +1 to wild.
> 
> Also, very nice in wall setup... is there a marine tank there now?


thanks. That spot now contains a flat screen TV. I lived in a commercially zoned duplex and I evicted my tenant and opened a retail aquarium shop. Didn't seem to make much sense to have an aquarium in the house when all I do is walk though a door and I'm surrounded by them.

Not having a personal display tank has had a strong affect on how my store tanks look though  This is part of our $50 dollar coral tank for instance.


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## Cintax (Jun 16, 2011)

Well, it's a pretty nice space for a flat screen too.

So very ice corals on your website. Love the elegance corals.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

Cintax said:


> Well, it's a pretty nice space for a flat screen too.
> 
> So very ice corals on your website. Love the elegance corals.


Yeah the tv looks great there. In the next house I plan on building something similar but with a TV mounted in the middle and a custom +/- 120 gal aquarium on each side that are the same viewing size as the TV.

thanks for the comp on the corals. We are a small shop but we do corals well. Much healthier stock then what s found in the typical shop and we propagate as much of our own stock as possible.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Okay! So I started setting up on Saturday =D I mostly just adapted spare parts I had laying around, still waiting for some parts. But basically I just adapted an old Aqua-Tech filter with a skimmer, still waiting for the powerhead so I just have a large round air stone in there right now. Obviously have some major aqua-scaping to do. I'm doing a FO setup to start, so no live rock or anything. Water's still a little mirky from stirring up the substrate. Used Coralife 50/50 colormax 10W bulbs. 
Yesterdays perameters were pH 8.1, Amm 0, nitrate 0.1, and temp 82. I plan to let it keep cycling for a while until I'm sure perameters are stable/ adjusted.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

sweet.

What are your goals/plans? I have nice Blue Spotted Grouper for sale. Great little community fish


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Was thinking of starting with some shrimp and clownfish for sure. I'm still doing some research into possible tank mates.


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

KaylaBot said:


> Was thinking of starting with some shrimp and clownfish for sure. I'm still doing some research into possible tank mates.


If you're going to get a shrimp you will need to build some shadded areas. Most shrimp don't like the direct light and will hide in the shade during the day time.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes, well I plan to have plenty of hidy spots once my aquascaping is complete. I was also considering snails or crabs. I know it's not good to mix them, just have to decide on what I want.


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

You can mix snails and crabs. I have both snails and hermits in my tank. Just make sure you have lots of empty shells for the hermits to play around with and expect to lose a snail here and there.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

ecoleshill said:


> You can mix snails and crabs. I have both snails and hermits in my tank. Just make sure you have lots of empty shells for the hermits to play around with and expect to lose a snail here and there.


I agree, I mix them all the time.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Oay.  Good to know. I've just heard so many eople complain that their crabs killed the snails for their shells and so on.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

well they do occasionally but if there are lots of shells around they are pretty good. They add so much interest to the tank that most of us just consider it the cost of admission to the show.

I had a customer describe a crab attack the other day that sounded pretty cool. He bought some Emeralds Crabs (one of my fav's) and some of those giant Turbo Snails a couple of weeks prior. 

He was sitting in his chair watching his tank and one of the Turbos fell from near the top of the tank and landed wedged between the glass and a rock in a position that it could not escape from. He stood up and walked over and as he bent down for a closer look an Emerald popped out of nowhere, and as he described it, raced across the sand, up the rock and dug into the snail with both claws 

I love that crap. There is no way an Emerald Crab could hurt a big arsed Turbo except perhaps under that specific set of circumstances. That is nature...well a distorted little slice crammed into a glass cage and put on display kinda nature but I'll take it. 

Chances are there was something wrong with that snail anyway and that is why it fell.


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

wildexpressions said:


> I had a customer describe a crab attack the other day that sounded pretty cool. He bought some Emeralds Crabs (one of my fav's) and some of those giant Turbo Snails a couple of weeks prior.


Even the mighty little Halloween Hermits can tip the large Turbo Grazing Astria Snails and chow down..... This guy did not even last 24 hours in my tank. The hermit is about half the size of the snail too.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Eeeeh we'll see. Okay so so far my parameters are staying pretty stable with my pH at 8.0, amm 0 and nitrite 0, temp at 80F. 

Should I up the pH by adding more salt? Opinions?

Also, whats the best method for introducing live critters to the new tank?


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

KaylaBot said:


> Also, whats the best method for introducing live critters to the new tank?


I use a slingshot


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

O.O Funny.


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## Syed (Oct 20, 2010)

KaylaBot said:


> Eeeeh we'll see. Okay so so far my parameters are staying pretty stable with my pH at 8.0, amm 0 and nitrite 0, temp at 80F.
> 
> Should I up the pH by adding more salt? Opinions?
> 
> Also, whats the best method for introducing live critters to the new tank?


To introduce live critters you can acclimate them by cup or drip method. Personally I just dump them in the tank with the lights turned off, so far haven't lost any critters. 

Also make sure to not introduce inverts that rely on algae for a food source until you start seeing sufficient algae/diatom growth. Don't want them to starve.


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## Will (Jul 24, 2008)

Most inverts are very sensitive to changes in salinity. Acclimate them slowly!!! A long drip is best imo.

Snails are especially affected by suddenchanges. They become lethargic, and prey to others.


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

I usually drip for at least a 1/2 hour. I dump some snails in once without dripping them and after about 24 hours none of them were able to stick on rocks or glass. They kept falling off and eventually became a meal for my hermits when I was not around to help them.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

I drip my fish and snails for about an hour. Crabs and shrimp i just toss right in. I have never lost a single livestock doing it this way.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Okay good to know! Thanks everyone


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Has anyone here kept lionfish before? I saw dwarf fuzzy and dwarf zebra lionfish today and it peeked my interest in them.


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

yeah I've had few. I have Volitan Lion in my predator tank and a Dwarf Lion in my community/coral display tank. They are pretty cool fish although they can vary from one to the next personality wise. 

They are not aggressive and can generally be kept with any fish that will not fit in their huge, proportionally speaking, mouths. The two I have right now are very easy going but I have had Lions that got very territorial when you put your hand in the tank and starting messing with stuff. They typically give lots of warning that they are getting upset though by taking a heads down and slowly moving towards you dorsal fins first body posture. Based on my experience to date, and talking to people that have been nailed by them, you generally have to be not be paying attention to get poked.

They do put a larger load on your system then their size would suggest but that is true of pretty much all predators. It is nice to get one that is already eating frozen or pellets as they do have a pretty strong preference for live food. That said I've never owned one that I didn't successfully get to eat frozen once it was hungry enough.

I love Dwarfs because they just look darn cool in the community/coral tank and doesn't make me compromise much on what I'm going to put in there. Can't say that about a lot of the true predators.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Hmmm Cool! I've been reading up on them. I tend to like my predators LOL. My FW preds I feed a mix of pellets, frozen and live, they seem to like the variety. But yeah, still trying to decide what to put in my tank, I think a dwarf would be really cute~ ^_^


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

KaylaBot said:


> Hmmm Cool! I've been reading up on them. I tend to like my predators LOL. My FW preds I feed a mix of pellets, frozen and live, they seem to like the variety. But yeah, still trying to decide what to put in my tank, I think a dwarf would be really cute~ ^_^


Please wait until you get a bigger tank though; they will not do well in the tank you currently have. They need room to prowl...


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

50seven said:


> Please wait until you get a bigger tank though; they will not do well in the tank you currently have. They need room to prowl...


Even a dwarf? In my reading, there's a wide range of min tank size so I dunno.


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

I found online that a drawf lion needs a min tank size of 120cm wide by 4 feet long.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

ecoleshill said:


> I found online that a drawf lion needs a min tank size of 120cm wide by 4 feet long.


Yes thats why I was unsure because while I 'was lookign them up I found different sites that said anything from 10 to 55 gals. So that's why I was asking. :3


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## wildexpressions (May 3, 2010)

well like most things in aquariums there is no definitively correct answer. 

I have my dwarf in a 36" wide x 18" deep by 24" tall 65 gal tank but there is so much rock work, approx 150+ lbs, and the rocks stretch right up out of the water in 3 place that he has tons of space to hunt in. They really like vertical spaces and will spent hours hugging a vertical wall staring down into the tank.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Yeah I'll think I'll stick with my origional plan of clownfish XD

Any recommendations on good tank mates?


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

KaylaBot said:


> Yeah I'll think I'll stick with my origional plan of clownfish XD
> 
> Any recommendations on good tank mates?


I had the following with my clowns before my hardware failure:
Lawnmore Blenny
Yellow Tang
Fire Shrimp
Hermits


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Here's my plan/goals.. Going to get a pair of clowns, a pair of shrimp, and a hermit crab and maaaaaaybe a snail. That's my plan so far. Going to do a 15% water change tomorrow I think, but so far my perameters are constent at pH 8.0-8.2, Temp 78-80F, Amm 0-0.25, nitrate 0 and nitrite 0.  I'm still waiting for my scaping stuff and powerhead... darn international shipping! But hopefully this week it'll be complete!!!


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

*Yay*

So Finally got all my parts in! =D

Had a little ammonia jump after I got everything in, so added from Ammo-lock and will retest in a few hours. Also got some Proper pH 8.2 buffer to stabalize the pH.










And with the blue moonlights


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Don't worry so much about pH. I personally wouldn't bother to buffer it, as it really isn't as important as kH and alkalinity. I have never worried about any of them, just stick with a decent salt mix and do your regular water changes. Make sure you mix your salt well and give it time to dissolve good, and let it take it's time to get into the tank when you add it. I use a 1/4" siphon line.

Just wondered what you used to seed the tank? Your rockwork doesn't look very porous like regular live rock.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

What do you mean "seed the tank"? It's not live rock, just doing a FO setup.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Yes, but you still need the bacteria from an existing live tank to cycle the tank properly. It may appear to cycle now, but as soon as you add livestock, you could possibly end up with a crash, as the bacteria needed to cycle a saltwater tank is different from a freshwater tank. You also get a lot more diversity on the bacteria if you seed it. Just ask for some live rock rubble and/or sand from one of the sumps next time you are at your LFS. NAFB and SUM both will give this to you for $5, or free if you buy a bunch of other stuff.

Personally I wouldn't use any ammonia control solutions. Let the tank cycle on its own. It shouldn't take long for a FO system if you seed it.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Unless you have a traditional filter (like in a FW setup), you need live rock to act as your biological filter, regardless if it's a FO or a reef. 

Without a substrate for a large amount of bacteria (filter material or very porous live rock), you'll have no filter and no matter what you do to control ammonia/nitrites, you'll never succeed long term.

For your small set up all you'll need is a few pounds of LR.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

ameekplec. said:


> For your small set up all you'll need is a few pounds of LR.


The easiest would be to find someone on the boards here who will sell you a few small pieces that you can take home and swap out with the two rocks that you already have in there.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

ameekplec. said:


> Unless you have a traditional filter (like in a FW setup), you need live rock to act as your biological filter, regardless if it's a FO or a reef.
> 
> Without a substrate for a large amount of bacteria (filter material or very porous live rock), you'll have no filter and no matter what you do to control ammonia/nitrites, you'll never succeed long term.
> 
> For your small set up all you'll need is a few pounds of LR.


What do you mean by a traditional filter? I'm running an aquatech 10 powerfilter on the system.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

You would be best off to take out the foam filter in the aquaclear and fill it with live rock rubble from an established tank instead. This will sufficiently seed your tank.

Then replace the 2 rocks that you have in there with a porous rock instead. You could use the Marcos rocks that SUM sells, some actual live rock, or even make your own using the Aragocrete method. You need the porousity of traditional live rock to aid in the biological filtration, especially if you hope to put in what you want.

Also, if you think that the bubble effect of the airstone doesn't suit the tank, you could find a way to put it inside the aquaclear and it would still be effective. All of the SW systems that I have ever seen have no airstone but rely on the skimmer and water movement to provide oxygenation.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

What is SUM? I keep seeing people post it, but I have no idea what it is....


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

KaylaBot said:


> What is SUM? I keep seeing people post it, but I have no idea what it is....


LOL, no worries, it's SeaUMarine in Markham, the most awesome saltwater only LFS in the GTA


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Oooooooh. Just hard to get there for someone who relies on TTC lol


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

KaylaBot said:


> Oooooooh. Just hard to get there for someone who relies on TTC lol


Yeah, that would be tough. Keep an eye out on Ken's weekend sales, and when there's one that's got stuff you want, try posting up a forum message to bum a ride with someone else who might be going up there. I know there's members here who live near you who visit SUM regularly.

SeaUMarine weekly specials page!

In the meantime, visit NAFB (North American Fish Breeders) on Kingston Rd., and Menagerie on Parliament. Both nice stores too.


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## Squeege84 (Feb 13, 2011)

50seven said:


> LOL, no worries, it's SeaUMarine in Markham, the most awesome saltwater only LFS in the GTA


I agree! SUM's! is a great place to get stuff at, Ken is very helpful and kind!! Love his weekend specials!! lol


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Hopefully I'll make it up there someday. I've been to Menagerie a few times,  Nice place.


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

Where is SUM's?


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

ecoleshill said:


> Where is SUM's?


Northeast corner of Woodbine Ave. and Apple Creek Dr. (just north of Highway 7)

Sent from my HTC Magic using Tapatalk


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

50seven said:


> Northeast corner of Woodbine Ave. and Apple Creek Dr. (just north of Highway 7)
> 
> Sent from my HTC Magic using Tapatalk


Thanks. I will check them out next time I'm out that way.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

*Update*

Added fish  Yay! Got two black clownfish, and 2 hermit crabs to start. Thanks for all the help!
Further updates will be added here: http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26761


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

ecoleshill said:


> Where is SUM's?


 What ????????????????????? 

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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

sig said:


> What ?????????????????????


LOL Greg you are one of the best sources of entertainment on this site...


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## J-Miles-21 (Sep 25, 2010)

50seven said:


> Yeah, that would be tough. Keep an eye out on Ken's weekend sales, and when there's one that's got stuff you want, try posting up a forum message to bum a ride with someone else who might be going up there. I know there's members here who live near you who visit SUM regularly.
> 
> SeaUMarine weekly specials page!
> 
> In the meantime, visit NAFB (North American Fish Breeders) on Kingston Rd., and Menagerie on Parliament. Both nice stores too.


haha..group trips to SUM would be incredible...but would destroy my wallet...with that being said...if anyone is near yonge and college i would be interested in a ride..hahaha


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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

sig said:


> What ?????????????????????


Sorry Greg... I am only 2 years old when it comes to salt tanks.  I'm learning. hehe....


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

there is another store called NAFB. They have very good selection of corals, but I prefer SUM.
My personal problem with NAFB that for every question that I ask John about corals, I am getting just general answer that these are easy to maintain. IN SUM I can get real advise and true about stuff that I am buying. I mean from Ken and Chris. Another guy who works there is a copy of John.

Probably, it just myself, but when I am going to the store, I do not look for something particular and I result, i am not able to do research and fully depend on the seller.

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## ecoleshill (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks Sig. I will definitely check SUM out next time I am out in the East side of town. I live in Milton, but my parents live in Markham, so I drive by SUM periodically.


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