# angelfish breeding



## dp12345 (Sep 12, 2010)

i am "trying " to breed angelfish.
To those who had done this before i need some advise.
1. What is the best live food to condition the angelfish so they will pair off.
2. If my angelfish had paired off is it advisable to seperate them?
3. Do u give some fresh vegies to your angelfish?

thanks

dp


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

When I was younger, I usually fed my angels live blackworms. But to be honest, I don't know what helped them pair off. I do remember that the live foods seemed to encourage breeding. Why do you want to separate the pair if they have paired off? Isn't that what you want? 

I never fed my angels veggies so I can't comment on that.


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## ynot (Jan 30, 2010)

My angelfish is a hearty eater...it pigs out on blanched cucumbers whenever its available.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

> 1. What is the best live food to condition the angelfish so they will pair off.


I don't use any live foods for my angels. I just feed large flake tetramin and frozen blood worms (Hikari). Occasionally I'll feed them baby brine to stimulate feeding.



> 2. If my angelfish had paired off is it advisable to seperate them?


Yes. Unless you have a large tank and only a few pairs it's a good idea to separate them to avoid fighting.



> 3. Do u give some fresh vegies to your angelfish?


No.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I feed live food when available. In the spring I feed large quantities of live daphnia, bloodworms, and assorted other insect larvae. Growth rate with young fish is unbelieveable when huge amounts of live food are fed. I also feed whiteworms occasionally, especially for conditioning before breeding. Angels don't normally eat veggies, although I have seen them pick at peas and zuchini. If you have a pair, and wish to breed them separating them to their own tank is advisable.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

IMHO I would avoid live black worms. You'll be plagued with hexamita and camallanus worms for months. Also avoid all far east angels. They come in sick with both diseases.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Interesting about the far east angels. Actually a friend who works at BA's tells me the two hardest fish to keep alive for them are domestic angels and guppies. Wild scalare aren't a problem.\My rule of thumb for live foods is that if fish live in the water they are collected from (not likely) you don't use it. Parasites need a host, and if there isn't one, they aren't there. Live foods are a real PITA to collect, unless you cultivate them the way I do. I have my live food delivered to my fish room via garden hose.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Well I would say that most of the altums brought in to BA did not survive. Far east angels and guppies are plagued with disease. It's the transport stress that makes disease an issue and eventually kills them. As for BA, any store with a centralized filtration system held at 77-78 degrees will not be able to keep angels and guppies alive unless they are fully acclimatized prior to delivery. And even that is a bit too chilly a temperature from what they have been raised in. But if the breeder and the livestock manager at BA know what the pitfalls are, they know what to expect. Guppies are a difficult fish to rear and sell. One sick guppy can wipe out a tank of healthy guppies in a matter of hours. Although the guppy looks healthy, it's a carrier. And how many times have you seen a guppy shimmying at the water line pale looking with scale problems. As for the live food discussion... I'm not complaining about microworms/whiteworms or daphnia for feeding fry. But black worms and cheap frozen blood worms aren't worth feeding to angels. The reason all my angels are fed a commercial diet is for consistency. That's what they'll get in the stores and in the houses of the customers. If an angel doesn't swim immediately to food introduced, it needs to be given close inspection.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

All the small altums and did not make it at BA's Whitby. They are not on central filtration. They rarely lose wild scalare though from what I am told. 
As far as frozen bloodworms go, they look pretty sketchy compared to live ones, and I wouldn't go to the expense of black worms. Every spring for 4 to 6 weeks, all my fish have daphnia and whatever else is in the culture 24/7. How long depends on when the ice melts and when I can't delay opening the pool.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Well if they are truly wild from a south american exporter then those angels may require live foods. I'm assuming they are peru, rio manacapura or leopoldi. They'll be picky eaters. I recently had an outbreak of camallanus in a tank. The adult angel pair was most likely infected by a wild pair of L183s. I lost the female Starlight. It didn't come from the Hikari frozen blood worms because the rest of my breeders remained disease free. Speaking about blood worms, I'm referring to the midge fly larva stuff. Do you culture these? Or glass worms? I am assuming that nobody uses tubifex worms anymore. And speaking of black worms... these worms come from the trout farms in California. They are a clean worm initially when they first arrive but not many retailers know how to keep them alive and clean. In the weeks that follow the worms are on a decline. They come in twice a week and you have to get them when they first arrive. A clean worm will wiggle like lightning from your hand. The water must remain cold. Decades ago John from NAFB use to bring us kilos of black worms. Now they are imported by Straits Aqualife. They're a good food when they come in clean and kept clean. But I still won't feed it to my angels. My angels would stop eating flake and become very finicky. Now if I breeding discus I may reconsider the worms or spend many hours cleaning beef heart. You're lucky to have a supply of daphnia right in your back yard. I use to collect it behind the zoo in the back pond. But that was decades ago with the previous curator. A friend of mine, a guppy breeder has containers of mosquito larva every summer. But I'm afraid of West Nile so I rarely visit him. 

Bill I know you are well aware of what I write. I'm just putting it out there for others to read.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

BA's in Whitby has had a number of different wild scalare, and some large batches of leopoldi. What has surprised me about these, is that they are not shy, and follow your hand to the top of the tank looking for food, just like domestics. I can only surmise that they are being fed flake or something when they are in holding, as they are definitely tame and trained.
the blood worms I speak of are in fact midge larvae, and I do cultivate them sort of. They are actually more of a byproduct of my daphnia culture, which takes place on the winter cover of my swimming pool. I have had a culture going every spring since 1995. Besides bloodworms, I get the odd glass worm. This year I had mosquitos for the first time ever, and a variety of midge or gnat larvae that look like a small bloodworm, that is usually green or brown. I usually have predacious water beetle larvae as well as water boatmen. Since I usually drain the winter cover to the floor drain in the basement, because the drop is greater than to the street, I hit on the idea of draining into a garbage can, and allowing it to overflow to the drain. I net the daphnia and such from the garbage can. The majority end up going down the drain, but I still have enough to keep dahnia in front of the fish 24/7.
Basically, anyone with a swimming pool having a winter cover is culturing live food, whether they know it or not. The differenc with me is that I seeded with daphnia.
As far as breeding mosquitoes goes, I figure, if I provide a place for them to lay their eggs, I can feed the larvae to my fish and actually reduce the number of mosquitoes in the neighborhood, only because I know where they are.


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## dp12345 (Sep 12, 2010)

what are wild scalare?

thanks

dp


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Wild scalare are wild caught versions of the common angelfish that you see in many variations. There are 3 species of angel, Pterophylum scalare, P. altum. and P. leopoldi. The scalare is the most commonly kept and probably the easiest to keep, especially the domestics which have been bred in captivity for many years.


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## acropora1981 (Aug 21, 2010)

Sorry to interject, but here is my take on Pterophyllum:

Pterophyllum is quite mixed up; some ichthyologists think there may actually be as many as 5 species of angels.

I certainly think there are. I've seen at least 4 distinctly different wild caught angelfish types in stores over the years.

However, most of them are usually labeled as Scalare.

Leopoldi is easy to pick out, but some scalare types look quite a bit like altums.

here is leopoldi: notice the curvature of the snout, and the small dorsal. Frank has a pair of these (franks aquarium) that he beleives to be scalare, but they are not  They are in his store, and have been for 6 years. Back right, top tank.









Ok, second example. These are often called Leopoldi incorrectly, or sometimes peruvian altums, but are apparently Scalare (doubtfull to me, probably a 4th species):










These are also scalare but look distinct to me:



















Then these are apparently F1 Scalare, and they look different(from my own setup). A species doesn't change that much from 1 generation to the next:










And then altums, which are also quite distinct (extra wide bars, turned up snout)...










Frank's also has some 'red' wild angelfish right now(or did a few weeks back, 50 bucks each), and they look different to any of these! Can't find a pic that matches, so perhaps a hybrid, which of course opens up a whole other can of worms...


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

I feed my angels high quality foods only such as new life spectrum flakes, frozen blood worms and brine shrimp or even earth worms chopped up. I do not feed them black worms as I have had nothing but problems from them. After they pair up I remove the other angels to another tank. I don't feed them any fresh vegetable matter as it fouls the water to quickly.


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