# Algae in Hairgrass



## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

What to do? Do you cut it out or treat it with Excel?


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## ozi (Aug 23, 2007)

It depends on what kind of algae it is. But I'm also interested in what the others will suggest, because I also have some algea problems with my H.G (I think I have green thread algea or Cladophora, I can't really tell the difference  and brown brush algae (BBA)).


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

You know the same component of excel that kills algae also kills invertebrates slowly...

Using mildly educated deduction, I've come to believe that excel is actually *FLUORO*carbons... just a theory but it explains quite a lot...


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Without the use of Excel, what should one do? Wait to see if it dies? I have a lot of plants in this tank, from what I've read, it's really hard to believe that algae can out compete the other plants. Even my lotus are growing super fast.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Tabatha said:


> Without the use of Excel, what should one do? Wait to see if it dies? I have a lot of plants in this tank, from what I've read, it's really hard to believe that algae can out compete the other plants. Even my lotus are growing super fast.


Hella nerites and hella amano shrimp and hella ottos and hella bushynose...

You're always best off going hellanatural than trying to pour the solution out of a hella-bottle


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Respect my authorita!


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Tabatha said:


> Respect my authorita!


Not really just dont use excel.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Tabatha said:


> Respect my authorita!


Honestly once you get your algae crew to 'critical mass' you'll notice theres suddenly just no algae.

the trick is to strike a balance between- they are very nicely nutritionalificated and are eating my algae and I overfeed them and they dont eat algae.

Amano shrimp especially would much rather eat four pellets, get all their nutrition, and bugger off than spend hours pulling algae laboriously off a leaf.

And remember if you do go for an obscene (say like fifty or sixty) number of amano shrimp you must dose small (no more than enough to increase your hardness a point or two) amounts of aragonite and kalkwasser and iodide


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

Pablo said:


> Not really just dont use excel.


It was in reference to Cartman.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Pablo said:


> You know the same component of excel that kills algae also kills invertebrates slowly...
> 
> Using mildly educated deduction, I've come to believe that excel is actually *FLUORO*carbons... just a theory but it explains quite a lot...


I'd like to learn more about this, do you have any references that Excel is made from fluorocarbons? As far as I know, it's some "special" isomer of glutaraldehyde and is not halogenated in any way.



Tabatha said:


> What to do? Do you cut it out or treat it with Excel?


I've tried both methods; spot treating it with Excel does work, and the algae does eventually die. However, with this method, you'll have to remove the dead part anyways (or you could just let it rot in your water...).

I spent about an hour last weekend slowly "combing" through my Dwarf Hairgrass, and slowly snipping individual blades of grass. Frustratingly tedious, but a good change from reading journal articles.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Darkblade48 said:


> I'd like to learn more about this, do you have any references that Excel is made from fluorocarbons? As far as I know, it's some "special" isomer of glutaraldehyde and is not halogenated in any way.
> 
> I've tried both methods; spot treating it with Excel does work, and the algae does eventually die. However, with this method, you'll have to remove the dead part anyways (or you could just let it rot in your water...).
> 
> I spent about an hour last weekend slowly "combing" through my Dwarf Hairgrass, and slowly snipping individual blades of grass. Frustratingly tedious, but a good change from reading journal articles.


well if its so special why is it classified? I dont like it. too bizzarre...


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Pablo said:


> well if its so special why is it classified? I dont like it. too bizzarre...


The label on Excel states that calls it "polycycloglutaracetal". Companies are allowed to keep trade secrets if they apply for a patent, and do not need to disclose it in the MSDS provided that they can prove that the chemical in question is relatively non-toxic (there is a certain standard that must be met).


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Darkblade48 said:


> The label on Excel states that calls it "polycycloglutaracetal". Companies are allowed to keep trade secrets if they apply for a patent, and do not need to disclose it in the MSDS provided that they can prove that the chemical in question is relatively non-toxic (there is a certain standard that must be met).


well we know it kills single celled aerobic organisms.

we know it damages invertebrates.

so it stands to reason its doing more damage beyond this, and these are merely 'canaries in the coalmine'.

I dont use this stuff or recommend it. Its melted shrimp on me.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

It seems that excel kills organisms in order of complexity

algae --> simple plants like moss, vals, duckweed, riccia --> regular aquatic plants --> shrimp --> fish

You can use excel, people have had success overdosing it for up to two weeks with success, w/ or w/o shrimp.

Spot dosing is also another option but may result in 'burning' plants.

I say just keep the tank in balance, clean filter, and prune the affected hairgrass parts aggressively. Hairgrass is like normal lawn grass, just trim it off and it'll grow back even more aggressively (given substrate, fertilizer, co2, lights). You can combine this with excel treatment.

Pruning is hard work and underestimated, but it's well worth it.

Hairgrass also tends to act as a mechanical filter as it traps fine debris really well--which blocks out sunlight, hairs die off, algae ensues. So try to keep it clean with frequent vacuuming.

Also, don't rely on your algae-eating critters too much--most of them eat only certain types of algae and will happily eat other foods if given. Their algae eating capability is limited while algae growth is not. More important thing is stability (consistent fertilizer, water change schedule) and clean tank.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

dekstr said:


> It seems that excel kills organisms in order of complexity
> 
> algae --> simple plants like moss, vals, duckweed, riccia --> regular aquatic plants --> shrimp --> fish
> 
> ...


I'd like to make a small adjustment:

I don't argue that Excel kills organisms in order of complexity, however, I think it should be adjusted as follows:

algae -> non-vascular plants such as moss, Riccia --> vascular plants such as Crypts, Swords, Hairgrass, etc --> shrimp --> fish.

The reason is that Excel seems to kill non-vascular plants (i.e. do not possess a vascular system (xylem and phloem) and do not possess roots, stems or leaves). As such, Duckweed (Lemnaceae spp.) is considered a vascular plant, as they possess leaves and roots.

It is currently unknown why some vascular plants such as Vallisneria spp. show increased sensitivity to Excel; this observation is quite repeatable. Compare this with some scattered reports that Egeria (Anarcharis) densa is also sensitive to Excel.

Spot dosing does work with Excel to kill algae, but I've accidentally managed to burn an Anubias leaf as well. Then again, I was overdosing at approximately 12x the recommended amount.... Also at this amount of overdosing my Riccia began to look like it was being bleached (turning white, etc).

All in the name of killing some pesky algae.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

id argue that it damages shrimp before any plant effects even if said shrimp damage isnt visible. affected shrimp cannot right themselves outside of water and if you feel them they are very soft squishy and lethargic and weak


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## mr.sandman (Mar 22, 2007)

If you have CO2 for this tank you can crank it up a bit.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

We do have pressurized CO2, I'll have to check what the BPS is, TDF usually takes care of that.


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## awbowden (Mar 8, 2007)

From what I've seen spot treating with excel only works on BBA and it does work very well for this. 

You probably have hair algae growing in your HG as this is quite common. Probably need to up the CO2.

Andrew


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

It's fuzzy and dark green


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## Sameer (Sep 30, 2007)

I had algae on all my plants and I wasent ready for it. So, on another fish forum(KWAS) I asked for help. There were the usual solutions like excel, but there was a person who said something interesting. He said the following. Ill quote exactly what he said.



> One more trick I learned this year: Get a timer for the lights and set it for TWO on-off cycles. Each cycle should be 3.5 hours of "full sun" at most, with a 1-2 hour downtime in the middle.
> 
> The plants and fish will be fine, but the algae needs 4 or more consistent, consecutive hours of light to get it's engines going and start multiplying. Less and it just "survives", meaning if you scrape it off, and nuke it with Excel then it stays gone.


make sure your plants get total light of 10 to 12 hours.

Now Ive had this routine for a month, and I can say that it actually works. I dont see any algae on any of my plants and the dwarf grass is clean and green. If youve seen my thread in the planted tank images, my plants are going red(you can actually see the damaged leaves with dead algae on them and the newer leaves algae free and healthy). I have 2.1 Watts per gallon lighting and no CO2. I use excel here and there but not enough to do anything really. Hope this helps.


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## awbowden (Mar 8, 2007)

> It's fuzzy and dark green


Sounds like BBA. I would turn off your filter for 15min or so and spot treat daily with the recommended dosage of excel as well as maintain CO2 @ 30-40ppm. This treatment worked for me. Here is the thread that provoked me to it.

Link

Andrew


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Some good replies on here, but I'll give my two cents anyway!

1) Excel DOES work, but there are drawbacks. Namely damage it can do to the shrimp in your tank, but also the worst one, it is expensive. Spot treating areas works too - turn off the filter, squirt on said area, wait 15 minutes, turn filter back on.

The biggest reason I wouldn't suggest using this method to control algae is because it isn't addressing the imbalance, and in effect is a band-aid solution.

2) Changing your photoperiod can have a very positive effect on your tank in both reducing algae and creating healthier plants. From my experience, anything over 10 hours or so is too much light, even with a siesta. I run about 8 right now and have an hour long siesta in between (4 on, 1 off, 4 on).

I've read various times that algae is sort of like "on" or "off" in regards to light, whereas it takes most plants time to wind down, so they are still using nutrients, c02, producing oxygen, etc. while the lights are off and in effect, outcompeting algae. In addition, I'm of the belief that plants, much like fishies, need a proper time to "rest".

Is this all true? I'm not sure, it sounds good to me. All I can say is that I have tried it and have found it makes a difference in my tank (however, not a solution in itself to algae).

3) Pruning makes a HUUUUGE difference, especially for stuff like hairgrass. Stuff gets stuck in there all the time and unless you siphon it off, you are bound to get algae.

4) Different types of algae have different reasons for being there. I would say that most algae can be dealt with by proper fertilization (more often than not INCREASING has been my solution). That includes co2 (you will find that a lack of co2 causes many different kinds of algae!).

To be honest though, take a picture and show us. It could even be BGA, which is likely due to poor circulation and/or debris.

Good luck, algae is half the fun of a planted tank imo. You feel like a champ when you get rid of it, especially using a "natural" approach.


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## jrs (Mar 18, 2006)

I spot treat all of my mosses with excel with no side effects at all. I also keep the filter running though so the contact time is minimal. With only the rare exception all of my mosses are algae free.

Mosses and hairgrass must be pruned regularly or algae will build up. When I kept hairgrass in my one tank I would prune it to look like a lawn (1/4-1/2") every month or two. This would allow it to fill in more and allow me to siphon and work the substrate to get the crap out of it. 

Hairgrass is a PITA to keep though.


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## Tabatha (Dec 29, 2007)

What is your favorite ground cover? What is the easiest ground cover?

I tried planting HC, what a PITA that was, most of it ended up floating because of the corys and plecos.


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