# Breeding white cloud minnows



## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

I've set up a 10 gallon tank with a gravel substrate and I've covered the bottom of the tank with a bunch of moss, and put in a couple large java ferns. You can barely see the substrate from the top of the tank. I moved 5 minnows into the tank from the outdoor pond. They were put out there to control mosquitoes during the summer but oddly, they didn't spawn outside.

My white clouds are full size adults, they really fattened up from all the live food. Of the 5 minnows, 1 is a male and the other 4 are female. All the females seems to be carrying eggs, and the male is constantly chasing them with his fins flared. They've been in the tank for 3 weeks now, and have been exhibiting this behaviour for a week or so. The females don't seem interested in the male at all - they just swim away from him. Is this normal?

The tank is unheated, but stays at 68F, and from what i've read, this is supposed to be an ideal temp for them. I forgot to mention that the tank is filtered with an old aquaclear 20, has an airstone running, and has a florescent light on for 9 hours a day. I was interested in breeding them so that i can sustain the population and put them back out into the pond come summer, i'd also be willing to give some away if i'm successful in breeding them  

What i'd like to know is, if i'm doing something wrong, or if i'm missing something in my set up. Is there something i should be doing on my part to trigger the breeding? I also have some cherry shrimp in there that stowed away on the moss - would the cherry shrimp eat any eggs? i'm leaning towards no on cherries eating live eggs, but i'm not 100% sure. I'd be really appreciative if someone could shed some light on this for me. Thanks for reading this long post


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=504 says ~22-23C for their experience to breed. Perhaps puttting a heater or two in the tank and slowly turning up 1-2 degrees every say 6 hrs and see how it goes. Just a thought.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

20c should be okay to breed them. you need to remove them when they've mated. the female will sometimes still look big, but that doesn't mean she hasn't laid her eggs. i would add a couple more males and then wait ONE day before removing the adults. then you will have babies within 3 days. when i do this, sometimes i get a baby or two, sometimes i get 80+. i keep their tank at room temp as well. i have read all over that the parents won't eat the fry, but i've only ever found 2 fry in the tank with the parents. i would also turn the hob off and use a sponge filter so they don't get sucked in before they learn to swim well.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

I tried looking for more males, but all the lfs that i checked out only have small white clouds. I bought 5 golden white clouds from BA last week and they're only 3/4 the size of my regular white clouds. I believe a couple of the golden white clouds are male, but i dont know if they're at sexual maturity yet. As for the filtration, i don't have a sponge filter, but i wrapped a very fine mesh over the intake of the filter to save any fry - the same mesh has worked for me in my crystal red tank so i'm assuming that it should be alright for white cloud fry. 

I read somewhere that during a water change, i should add dechlorinated water that is 5 degrees cooler to trigger spawning - anyone tried that yet? I'm afraid the temperature shock might kill the fish.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> 20c should be okay to breed them. you need to remove them when they've mated. the female will sometimes still look big, but that doesn't mean she hasn't laid her eggs. i would add a couple more males and then wait ONE day before removing the adults. then you will have babies within 3 days. when i do this, sometimes i get a baby or two, sometimes i get 80+. i keep their tank at room temp as well. i have read all over that the parents won't eat the fry, but i've only ever found 2 fry in the tank with the parents. i would also turn the hob off and use a sponge filter so they don't get sucked in before they learn to swim well.


When the females have laid their eggs, how much smaller do their stomachs get? My females are really big, and their stomachs seem kind of "lumpy", does this mean they're stilling carrying the eggs?


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

jon021 said:


> I tried looking for more males, but all the lfs that i checked out only have small white clouds. I bought 5 golden white clouds from BA last week and they're only 3/4 the size of my regular white clouds. I believe a couple of the golden white clouds are male, but i dont know if they're at sexual maturity yet. As for the filtration, i don't have a sponge filter, but i wrapped a very fine mesh over the intake of the filter to save any fry - the same mesh has worked for me in my crystal red tank so i'm assuming that it should be alright for white cloud fry.
> 
> I read somewhere that during a water change, i should add dechlorinated water that is 5 degrees cooler to trigger spawning - anyone tried that yet? I'm afraid the temperature shock might kill the fish.


You can also take the green pad off a new scrub pad and rubber band it over the intake of the filter. Works good but make sure it's a new pad. I prefer the green scrub sheets myself then ripping out the yellow part but hey... if you need to use what you have. And for extra protection (if needed) wrap your fine mesh over that.


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## Mr Fishies (Sep 21, 2007)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> i have read all over that the parents won't eat the fry, but i've only ever found 2 fry in the tank with the parents.


Same experience here, I had a pair breed for me in a 7G shrimp tank, unless 6 cherry shrimp ate them all after they hatched, not while they were eggs...the parents had to be the culprits. There were 20-30 one day, none the next.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

AquaNeko said:


> You can also take the green pad off a new scrub pad and rubber band it over the intake of the filter. Works good but make sure it's a new pad. I prefer the green scrub sheets myself then ripping out the yellow part but hey... if you need to use what you have. And for extra protection (if needed) wrap your fine mesh over that.


A scrub pad in as the sponges used to wash dishes? I was using rubberbands before to tie the mesh onto the intake, but my dad told me that rubberbands will end up leeching chemicals into teh water so i got rid of them, and used fishing line instead. Not sure if its true or not, but i didn't want to take the risk with the rubber bands.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

Mr Fishies said:


> Same experience here, I had a pair breed for me in a 7G shrimp tank, unless 6 cherry shrimp ate them all after they hatched, not while they were eggs...the parents had to be the culprits. There were 20-30 one day, none the next.


i really dont think the cherries would touch fry - i have 2 small rainbow neon fry that stowed away on plants in my crystal red/cherry tank and the shrimp don't even touch them. I'm not too sure about eggs though...


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## ksimdjembe (Nov 11, 2006)

if you have a filter like an aqua clear, get a second foam (~$1) and cut a tight hole in it and slip it over the intake tube of the filter. i find it faster than trying to wrap filter pads. I've been using this method for a long while, and have had great results. lots of cherries bred, lots of livebearer young not sucked up. HTH.


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

jon021 said:


> A scrub pad in as the sponges used to wash dishes? I was using rubberbands before to tie the mesh onto the intake, but my dad told me that rubberbands will end up leeching chemicals into teh water so i got rid of them, and used fishing line instead. Not sure if its true or not, but i didn't want to take the risk with the rubber bands.


The rubberband thing I'm not sure on. I remember seeing a loooongtime ago that rubber bands are made from a plant/tree that has a rubbery sap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_band

I'll read up more on it after dinner. I'm getting hussled here in between cook times.

Fishline, cotton thread, and I think polyster thread out of a shirt works as well.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

jon021 said:


> I read somewhere that during a water change, i should add dechlorinated water that is 5 degrees cooler to trigger spawning - anyone tried that yet? I'm afraid the temperature shock might kill the fish.


the mesh should work to save the fry, the temp change won't hurt the fish. the water temp varies naturally by that much or more when it rains.



jon021 said:


> When the females have laid their eggs, how much smaller do their stomachs get? My females are really big, and their stomachs seem kind of "lumpy", does this mean they're stilling carrying the eggs?


the really big ones were noticably smaller but not nearly as slim as the males.



ksimdjembe said:


> if you have a filter like an aqua clear, get a second foam (~$1) and cut a tight hole in it and slip it over the intake tube of the filter. i find it faster than trying to wrap filter pads. I've been using this method for a long while, and have had great results. lots of cherries bred, lots of livebearer young not sucked up. HTH.


those work well. i use them to diy filters out of powerheads for my 150g. no need for an elastic or anything to tie it on, just make sure the slit is slightly smaller than the intake tube.

do a water change with the colder water, then wait till early the next day and try taking the parents out. are you sure your male is actually a male? if so you will probably have at least a few fry. i also found that having something the fertilized eggs can fall in where the other adults can't eat them helps keep the #s up, like lots of marbles or medium sized rocks.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> do a water change with the colder water, then wait till early the next day and try taking the parents out. are you sure your male is actually a male? if so you will probably have at least a few fry. i also found that having something the fertilized eggs can fall in where the other adults can't eat them helps keep the #s up, like lots of marbles or medium sized rocks.


I'm pretty sure my male is a male, he's alot slimmer than the other 4 fish, has brighter colouration, and loves to flare his fins. He seems to be very territorial and chases the other white clouds. I'll give the cold water a try tomorrow when i do my weekly water changes and see if that triggers anything. I put a layer or medium sized riverstones into the bottom of the tank and have a thick layer of java moss, and flame moss covering it all, hopefully this should be enough cover for the eggs.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

ksimdjembe said:


> if you have a filter like an aqua clear, get a second foam (~$1) and cut a tight hole in it and slip it over the intake tube of the filter. i find it faster than trying to wrap filter pads. I've been using this method for a long while, and have had great results. lots of cherries bred, lots of livebearer young not sucked up. HTH.


I think i'll follow your suggestion and use the foam, i'm finding the mesh bag a pain to clean every week. I have to untie it and then all the crap ends up floating back into the tank. Thanks for the advice.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

jon021 said:


> I'm pretty sure my male is a male, he's alot slimmer than the other 4 fish, has brighter colouration, and loves to flare his fins. He seems to be very territorial and chases the other white clouds. I'll give the cold water a try tomorrow when i do my weekly water changes and see if that triggers anything. I put a layer or medium sized riverstones into the bottom of the tank and have a thick layer of java moss, and flame moss covering it all, hopefully this should be enough cover for the eggs.


yeah, just thought i throw that out as a possibility, if you are sure then that's cool. keep us up to date.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> yeah, just thought i throw that out as a possibility, if you are sure then that's cool. keep us up to date.


Yea i know what you mean, i had a difficult time sexing them when i first brought them inside, they all looked the same, it wasn't until a couple days later that the 4 females started to get really fat, and the male started showing agressive behaviour. I've just did the water change 2 hours ago, so i'm going to monitor their behaviour for a while to see if anything changes.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

did they mate? are you going to take them out and see how many babies you have in the next two days?


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> did they mate? are you going to take them out and see how many babies you have in the next two days?


I jus checked tonight after getting home from school, and it seems that my male has been busy. All the 4 females are slimmer now, but i don't have another tank to put them in. The only other tank i have is 29 gallon but its currently housing 2 jewel cichlids. I'm going to just leave the adults in and hopefully some eggs will survive. The tank is loaded with java moss and other plants. So i'm hoping that some eggs fell into areas that the adults won't be able to get to. I'm also feeding them 3 times a day to deter them from going after too many eggs. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

I'd just like to go ahead and thank everyone for their help, especially bluekrissyspikes - i just checked the breed tank i set up and i see ton of white cloud fry.

I forgot to prepare any food for these fish, any suggestions? If these white clouds grow up successfully i'll have alot to give away, dibbs for everyone who helped me out. I'm planning on breeding the golden white clouds once these fry have grown out.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

You can get some microworms from me, also some decap brine shrimp eggs -- these don't hatch, but they're great food for fry that will eat them. The fry are getting a good start from all the micro-critters on the java moss, I bet.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

yeah!! you got babies. good luck with them. they need to start being fed once they are free swimming.


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## AquaNeko (Jul 26, 2009)

Any pics of the little ones?


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

AquaNeko said:


> Any pics of the little ones?


I'll take a pic of them when i get home - they're still really small but i'm estimating i have about.. 100-150 fry or so. I'm gonna have to move them into a larger tank soon.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

*pics*

Sorry about the delay, i tried taking photos of the fry but its night time so no lighting and they're fast little buggers. This is the best i could do at the moment, i'll try to get better pictures in the morning.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

right on. those little boogers are hard to capture without a super good camera and some skill.


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> right on. those little boogers are hard to capture without a super good camera and some skill.


And unfortunately i lack both of those  they're getting bigger now, i'll have to move them into a larger tank soon. How big do they have to be before i can put them back with the adults?


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

jon021 said:


> And unfortunately i lack both of those  they're getting bigger now, i'll have to move them into a larger tank soon. How big do they have to be before i can put them back with the adults?


big enough to not get swallowed. i usually wait until they are nearing 1cm


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> big enough to not get swallowed. i usually wait until they are nearing 1cm


Thanks for the help, i've actually gone ahead and transferred them from the 1.5 gal container they were hatched in, into a larger 4.5 gallon tank. This way, i'll have a bit more time to let them grow out before i transfer them into the adult tank.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

right on.  glad to see you were so successful. what are you going to do with them all if they all live?


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## jon021 (May 19, 2009)

bluekrissyspikes said:


> right on.  glad to see you were so successful. what are you going to do with them all if they all live?


I'm planning on giving a bunch of them to family, a couple will go into the planted tank and the rest i'm gonna be offering to anyone who's helped me out. Any remaining ones will probably go out into the pond. Although i know you've been successful in breeding the white clouds alot of times now, if you are you interested in any - just let me know.


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## bluekrissyspikes (Apr 16, 2009)

jon021 said:


> I'm planning on giving a bunch of them to family, a couple will go into the planted tank and the rest i'm gonna be offering to anyone who's helped me out. Any remaining ones will probably go out into the pond. Although i know you've been successful in breeding the white clouds alot of times now, if you are you interested in any - just let me know.


Thanks for the offer. i have quite a few myself right now already. the pond sounds cool.


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