# urgent advice needed from the salties, please!



## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

Hi,
New tank being dropped off today.
I was planning on moving everything over - but the guy i'm getting from says to wait...? What to do?
Using my water, though i will have to make probably 20g new...
From the new tank, i'm using the sand, but it will be under my sand (which will however get moved around a lot in the switch).
Using a few new pieces of rock, but not many.
I was going to keep fish and corals in ginormous tupperware, with heater and powerhead during switch. 
Also adding refugium today, with tons of cheato i picked up from hojimoe.
I have 'stabilize' which i was going to use, too.
Suggestions??

Thanks a million!


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Some may have different opinions, but as long as there are no die-offs from existing live rocks, you shouldn't really have a concern about cycling. You are moving live rocks and sand from established system to new container (tank), and adding new water (much like water change).

The only thing I would watch out for is the sand. It could release things that have been trapped inside all at once, not sure how much of concern that would be.

Definitely, after switch over before adding fish and coral back in, I'd test water parameters. If you can afford it, for a couple of days, just to be sure.

Ideally, taking time and doing things slowly would be the best.. the only thing that happens quickly in reef keeping is a failure, someone said that 

but it's not that bad, the life is very forgiving..


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

Thanks Conix! Am going to start dismantling now... Wish me luck!


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## acer (May 18, 2010)

pictures please. 

and good luck.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

whoaa.. sounds like a major project!

in my experience, depending on how deep your sandbed is and how often you disturb it - touching the sand and releasing all that stuff that was under it all or in the middle of it will cause a cycle (!!!). i used to disturb my sand bed before and probably go into it and disturb about 75% deep but only about half of the sand in my tank and it caused a cycle large enough to kill all my snails.. lesson learned! the fish i had at the time were stressed out like hell not just because of me being in the tank but for a few days after too but then again they were very hardy fish (clown, damsels, hermits).

also, adding ANY live rock will cause a cycle too.. depending on how much you're adding and how stable your previous rock is, the new rock will cause a cycle so it's best to add them slowly. how big of tanks are we talking here and how long was it established? when i added rock a few months ago, it was gradual and i left about a week or 2 go by before i added more. well the 2 week periods were just so the new rocks had a chance to develop coralline algae on them; i could have added new rock a lot faster but i chose to be patient and let things stablize 100%. algae blooms appeared for a day or two indicating to me that a cycle was occurring but my system stabilized it within the third day. 

the water, however shouldn't be a problem because it'd just be like a large water change. the sand is a scary thing to touch, so be careful with that one and good luck!


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

*Teemee's new tank!!!!!!!!*

Thanks everyone for information and advice! I was up until 4 am on Saturday, and everything still isn't put away, but i'm working on it 
And yet, the work isn't done yet... The return hose was broken while being dismantled, so I need to replace it (any ideas where in the GTA? I was told a pool store?? its 1.5" thick)., and then i can attach the sump - which would be useful, because my captive bred ora mandarin is definitely not eating pellets! I will require mucho advice on the hook up, because it's just not my thing, and it confuses me to say the least!
But it appears (knock on wood) that the move was successful. 
Corals are starting to perk up now that those pesky polyp eating crabs are gone, but my beautiful blue milli is in dire straights, so keep your fingers crossed for me please 
And yesterday I finally went to pick up some stuff I had bought from Ken at SUM ages ago, including by beautiful new RBTA - only to find it this morning at the back of the tank! Hopefully it will move back to the place I left for it, centre stage 

Anywho - here are some pictures - thanks for all those who've asked to see it! Hope you like it  sorry they are such crap - i just took them with the webcam!


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

You could probably get the flexible hoses from hardware stores. 

RBTA will decide on its own where to go. You simply cannot force it to be in some place. That's the problem with Anemones


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## kolbaso (Mar 24, 2010)

jj downs by kipling and dundas has every hose, pipe, tube and fitting you could ever think of.


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

*the girl who spoke too soon... *



kolbaso said:


> jj downs by kipling and dundas has every hose, pipe, tube and fitting you could ever think of.


i'm on my way there now...

Its a bad day for my tank 

there was an ammonia spike last night.
in fact, after changing about 40 gallons of water, I still have 0.25ppm.
Losses:
2 x captive bred banggai cardinals
1 x captive bred spotted mandarin
1 x captive bred tomato clown
1 x 5 year old scopas tang 
2 x kuekenthal shrimp
1 x peppermint shrimp

Still MIA, but presumed dead:
midas blenny
zebra barred goby
2 x yellow watchmen gobies

I moved some rocks around and still can't find them. if they're dead, i'm never going to get my ammonia down.



My tank has been without a fuge for almost a week now, which has surely contributed to this. testing fuge water now, and then going to get tubes...
and then i have to figure out how the heck to hook it all up.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your troubles!

If you're in a pinch to get ammonia down, use prime. It's invert safe. I've done it before it a SPS coral QT tank when oversliming in a tank with no biological filtration caused an ammonia spike.


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> Sorry to hear about your troubles!
> 
> If you're in a pinch to get ammonia down, use prime. It's invert safe. I've done it before it a SPS coral QT tank when oversliming in a tank with no biological filtration caused an ammonia spike.


i used about half a small bottle of prime in my water changes this morning...
ammonia now at zero both in fuge and tank... 
what a crappy day.
off to get tubing at jj downs. 
watch this space!


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

How is the tank now? Are corals doing ok?

This is one of the worst things that could happen to any reefer, and I feel responsible for misguiding you into this..


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

this definitely sucks..

and i didn't realize how big your tank was; i figured it was something like 50 gallon to a 60 gallon tank or something where the measurements are so minute that the tank can stabilize without a problem.. although touching the sand will always cause trouble in my experience. It makes me wonder what size your previous tank before the move was too. I came from the AP forum and a thread like this would have caused the site owner to jump in and say something incredibly rude, but many times he was right even though he could have said it a lot nicer (he definitely needs to work on his people skills). this project definitely should have been extended over a long long longg period of time. obviously hindsight is 20/20 but still, this tragedy could have been avoided but what can be done now. If only we could go back in time and do things over.. wouldn't that be something! If you still have things that are alive, you should definitely QT them or if you can find other people to hold them for you that would be your best bet, and theirs (the fish) too. You most likely caused a massive cycle to occur which, depending on the amount of rock/sand used could last the typical 6-8 weeks.

Again I'm curious to know; how much sand was yours and how much was from the bigger tank, and how much live rock was yours vs the newer pieces? I've used prime before and it never worked that fast for me so please keep in mind you may still be in dangerous waters. There isn't an additive that can cure ammonia spikes that fast and keep it like that, because you offset one part of the nitrogen cycle others will spike in return.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

I just wanted to add something, and I know that you probably don't want to hear it now or it may sound like a lecture from a nagging know-it-all but I just want to voice my opinion. I honestly don't mean to offend anyone in any way. I've only got praise for this recent (compared to say.. 15 years back?) phenomenon called the internet and the online forum. Or at least me finding it..

In this hobby we generally learn from experience, even if that experience is a cycle, something blowing up, things breaking or in worst case scenarios a specimen dying but it's up to us to learn from our mistakes or better yet other people's mistakes. That's the benefit of this miracle called the online forum where others can post their experiences and advice in order for everyone else to learn and a preventative measure can be taken. 

I started out in this hobby with only freshwater experience but with hours and hours of reading forums, I took the saltwater plunge and never looked back. I'm somewhat experienced but even still I'm learning as I go as there will always be questions I can't answer. That's where these forums come into play because we have so many wonderful people from all different kinds of backgrounds and experiences that can offer their say. I learned long ago from AP that if I have a question, most likely someone else has already asked that question and it was up to me to look it up with the search option (NO i'm not going to pull an AP and harshly tell you 'this question has already been answered! USE THE SEARCH BUTTON!!!' but really, it's GOLD!). When I couldn't find it, I'd start a thread and wait for collective answers from people before I did anything. Best to be cautious than overambitious; in my case nothing EVER goes according to plan because I've got the worst luck in the world. One important thing about doing stuff in this hobby I learned recently is if I change one thing in my tank; stop and let it settle before I do something else because afterall, and I'm quoting someone I just don't remember who, this hobby isn't about keeping fish it's mostly about keeping a large container of water. 

All that aside, I really feel for you man (sorry if you're a woman; really it's just a figure of speech). And I thought it was the end of the world when I lost all my snails to a cycle..

oh and btw.. hate to tell you this now but I doubt the connected fuge would have changed the outcome of these tragic events. Macroalgae simply don't have the potential to break down ammonias into nitrite/nitrates. They are only good to absorbing excess nitrates/phosphates for nutrient export.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

I suspect the ammonia spike is caused by the sand, but there are always other possibilities.

While Macro algae is typically NOT used to remove ammonia, it does absorb some ammonia directly. We simply do not rely on Macro algae to do that, as it would not be as stable or efficient as other biological filters. 

The sump/refugium may not have had great enough effect to reverse the tragic outcome, but without a doubt it would have helped, with greater overall water volume and in-sump skimmer.


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, I knew I was taking a bit of a risk. My tank was 65g, and I switched to a 75 gallon. (wider tank - more exposed sand?) I'd say about 75% of the sand was from the new tank, which had NO FISH, and that had been cycling for 2+ months (why I wasn't too worried about it...), and about 25% from my tank, which has been running for 5 years. Even though its only been in my possession for about 6 months, and in the move the sand was emptied, and put back in with no problems whatsoever!). Rock wise, I used about 100lbs from my tank, and maybe 25 lbs from the new tank. (which came from the cycled tank...). So all in all, having done a little bit (though clearly not enough) of research and having asked a bit on the forum, I didn't thing things should be quite so bad. Clearly, they could have been worse, and could have been a lot better. 
I don't know if its reassuring to hear that the sump/fuge might not have helped - but either way, I'm glad I got it running. 
Anyway, as far as I can tell, the final list of casualties are:
2 banggais,
1 tomato clown
1 mandarin
1 convict goby
1 zebra striped goby
1 scopas tang
1 midas blenny...
Of course, I've lost the real characters of my tank, which really sucks. I'm going to wait until mid september before I start looking at new fish.
In terms of corals, I have lost one much loved frag (a beautiful purple acro I got from ameekplec months ago), a tabling purple monti from conix, and a poccilopora. My purple xenia seems a bit unhappy, but hopefully it will pull through. Everything else is probably stressed, but seems okay. for now.
Ammonia yesterday was still 0.


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