# Problems with green spot algae & diatoms



## TorontoPlantMan

Hey guys,

I've been having some issues with green spot algae and brown diatoms, I'm hoping some of the more experienced users can chime in who've successfully eradicated this pain the butt. 

Here is some background information on my tank and such, so maybe someone can point out what I'm doing wrong.

From my understanding and research GSP is a result of low phosphates and low CO2. I'm currently dosing Seachem Flourish Potassium, Seachem Flourish Phosphorus, Seachem Flourish Nitrogen, Seachem Flourish Trace, and Seachem Flourish Iron X2 a week. I usually dose on the Monday & Wedneday and then water change on Friday. Every water change I remove 10 gallons from my 37 gallon tank and may add a few ferts dependant upon how the plants look. 

In terms of lighting I'm using a glass cover which should be reducing the light, but the fixtures themselves are a 30" Coralife T5HO 31watt dual bulb fixture with 6700k and rosette bulb. As well as a 24" Marineland Aquatic Plant LED W/Timer. The lighting cycle itself is as follows: T5's come on at 12:00 and shut off at 7:00pm, LED's come on at 1:00pm and shutoff at 5:00pm. 

For pressurized CO2 I'm just using a fluval ceramic disc with 3-4BPS, I wanted to go the in-line route but I've heard that overtime it destroys the canister filter and also makes it noisy?? 

I only have 3 fish (empire gudgeons) and 3 otto cats so my nitrates are always around 10-15ppm, PH is 6.5, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0. 

Now for the brown diatoms, my understanding is that they come from silicates and often appear in new tanks. I've had the tank running now for at least 2 months now, so should I still be experiencing this? or is the lighting too strong which is why this is happening?

My substrate consists of Seachem Fluorite Dark (Outer Wall), Seachem Fluorite Red (Mixed with MTS mix + on top of and underneath MTS mix), Seachem Fluorite Black Sand X 2 , Aragonite sand, Natural clay, Mineralized Top Soil (MTS) Soaked and dried for 6 weeks, mineralized with natural clay from the badlands as well as other additives like muriate of potash, laterite, etc.

I'd greatly appreciate anyones help and hopefully I can concur these troublesome algae's.


----------



## coldmantis

Brown algae oto fish let's say 4
Green spot algae on glass, I learn to deal with... Magnet cleaner. Its unavoidable when using high light and worst if the tank is near a window. When I dose everyday I get very little. Just enough that I have to clean the glass once a month. Since I started dosing less I have to clean my glass twice a month. But like I said just learn to accept it less headache that way

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## jimmyjam

This seems like the problem I had with my MTS setup a few years back, especially with the brown diatom algae, but that eventually cleared up. I find I get GSA when my nitrates are higher in ratio with my phosphates, and not just a lack of phosphate. I would do a 80 percent water change, blackout for 2 days, then start with less photo period . Give it a week of low photo period, then start moving it back up. Remember how much ferts you already have in the substrate, you dont need to kill it with the water column ferts, especially with the leaching from the substrate. When things are calmed down, I would reduce water column dosing big time, especially seeing most of your plants are root feeders.

re: Co2, use a atomizer at the output of the filter to avoid it going through the filter, it works great in my 75 gallon, but the only draw back is the mild mist you see. It creates a slightly more translucent water column, but its worth the results I see. Just make sure to get extra tube clips to secure it, It has come apart and flooded my clinic a few times.

Otherwise you are doing fine, those algae are easy to remove.


----------



## Ischemia

Bottlenose plecos are the only way to effectively deal with green spot. Tom Barr has done lots of study and this method was the only one work. I had a GSA problem until I added 3 bristlenose into my 55g


----------



## Sameer

Ischemia said:


> Bottlenose plecos are the only way to effectively deal with green spot. Tom Barr has done lots of study and this method was the only one work. I had a GSA problem until I added 3 bristlenose into my 55g


Tom Barr always goes on about how great rubbernose or bristlenose plecos are. Ive never heard of bottlenose.


----------



## coldmantis

Sameer said:


> Tom Barr always goes on about how great rubbernose or bristlenose plecos are. Ive never heard of bottlenose.


When I had about 10 plecos and maybe 200 baby plecos in my 45g tall I don't recall seeing GDA. However at the same time I believe I was using 4xt5no 84w total instead of the 4xt5ho 156w im using now. So not sure which was the fix. Having low lights for a tank that's 24" tall or having an army of plecos.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Ischemia

Sameer said:


> Tom Barr always goes on about how great rubbernose or bristlenose plecos are. Ive never heard of bottlenose.


I blame auto correct


----------



## greg

Many if not most tanks experience some brown diatoms during start up. Like coldmantis suggested, some otos or bristle nose would help, although it tends to disappear eventually on it's own - you have a diverse mixture of substrates, so who knows what the standard length to experience diatoms in your setup should be.

Likewise most of my tanks experienced a period of abundant green spot algae. I just kept on top of it and as the tank stabilized, it seemed to subside to an easily manageable amount.

You could add some floating plants for a few months and then gradually remove as your system stabilizes. I can bring some frogbits tomorrow when I see you if you like - let me know. If you have a lot of current in the tank they will not do well however. In that case you could add a fast growing stem on the left and then gradually remove and replace over time.


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

coldmantis said:


> Brown algae oto fish let's say 4
> Green spot algae on glass, I learn to deal with... Magnet cleaner. Its unavoidable when using high light and worst if the tank is near a window. When I dose everyday I get very little. Just enough that I have to clean the glass once a month. Since I started dosing less I have to clean my glass twice a month. But like I said just learn to accept it less headache that way
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 4


The 3 otto's I have now are doing a pretty good job at keeping the brown algae away but it's still more or less a bandaid on the problem so I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm doing wrong. I don't have any GSP on my glass, it's only happening on the plants themselves which is a pain because it's almost unremoveable. Thanks for your help



jimmyjam said:


> This seems like the problem I had with my MTS setup a few years back, especially with the brown diatom algae, but that eventually cleared up. I find I get GSA when my nitrates are higher in ratio with my phosphates, and not just a lack of phosphate. I would do a 80 percent water change, blackout for 2 days, then start with less photo period . Give it a week of low photo period, then start moving it back up. Remember how much ferts you already have in the substrate, you dont need to kill it with the water column ferts, especially with the leaching from the substrate. When things are calmed down, I would reduce water column dosing big time, especially seeing most of your plants are root feeders.
> 
> re: Co2, use a atomizer at the output of the filter to avoid it going through the filter, it works great in my 75 gallon, but the only draw back is the mild mist you see. It creates a slightly more translucent water column, but its worth the results I see. Just make sure to get extra tube clips to secure it, It has come apart and flooded my clinic a few times.
> 
> Otherwise you are doing fine, those algae are easy to remove.


When you did 80% water changes weren't you afraid of drastic PH swings? or were you not using pressurized CO2 at the time? I'm thinking I'm going to cut back on the lights a bit (turn off the LED's for a few days) and skip all ferts this week and see if theres any difference.

In terms of CO2 isn't the whole point of the atomizer to go through the filter though? or else it'd just be spraying fine mist from the output? Wow it actually flooded your clinic maybe that's something I wanna stay away from haha.

Do you think if I overdose with excel it will help?



Ischemia said:


> Bottlenose plecos are the only way to effectively deal with green spot. Tom Barr has done lots of study and this method was the only one work. I had a GSA problem until I added 3 bristlenose into my 55g


I've been trying to get my hands on a pair of bristle nose pleco's I just haven't been able to find any in healthy condition in my area. Thanks for the suggestion.



greg said:


> Many if not most tanks experience some brown diatoms during start up. Like coldmantis suggested, some otos or bristle nose would help, although it tends to disappear eventually on it's own - you have a diverse mixture of substrates, so who knows what the standard length to experience diatoms in your setup should be.
> 
> Likewise most of my tanks experienced a period of abundant green spot algae. I just kept on top of it and as the tank stabilized, it seemed to subside to an easily manageable amount.
> 
> You could add some floating plants for a few months and then gradually remove as your system stabilizes. I can bring some frogbits tomorrow when I see you if you like - let me know. If you have a lot of current in the tank they will not do well however. In that case you could add a fast growing stem on the left and then gradually remove and replace over time.


When you say you kept on top of the GSP, how did you go about doing so? I've tried manually removing it many times with zero success. I'd up my CO2 but I'm already at 3-4 BPS so I'm afraid any higher will gas my fish. If GSP is a culprit of low phosphates and low CO2, do you know what the ideal amount of phosphates is in a planted tank? I could probably buy a phosphate test kit but it'd be useless unless I knew what the desired amount would be.

I'll give the floating plants a try and see how that works out, if you could bring them tomorrow that'd be awesome, I'm sure I won't need many as the light is quite intense so they should grow fast. I have a surprise crypt for you too that I got today


----------



## greg

I kept on top of GSA by scraping it off the glass with a plastic razor blade. Like coldmantis it's a minor issue for me now - I just clean the glass on most of my planted tanks once a month - front glass only with exception of the 145g.

I agree don't up the CO2 as 3-4 BPS is high already for a 37 gallon tank. I have a ph monitor I can bring over if you want to meet at your place and we can check the ph which will give an indication of the CO2 levels. You might want to pick up an inexpensive drop checker at some point as well.

I'll bring over a phosphate test kit if we are meeting at your place - I'll text you in the morning to make arrangements.

Surprise crypt sound awesome  I'll bring some frog bits as well as some giant duckweed and you can use what you like. Frogbits block out more light than the duckweed. Duckweed can be a bit of a nuisance to get rid of down the road, although the giant duckweed is much easier to manage than the regular.


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

greg said:


> I kept on top of GSA by scraping it off the glass with a plastic razor blade. Like coldmantis it's a minor issue for me now - I just clean the glass on most of my planted tanks once a month - front glass only with exception of the 145g.
> 
> I agree don't up the CO2 as 3-4 BPS is high already for a 37 gallon tank. I have a ph monitor I can bring over if you want to meet at your place and we can check the ph which will give an indication of the CO2 levels. You might want to pick up an inexpensive drop checker at some point as well.
> 
> I'll bring over a phosphate test kit if we are meeting at your place - I'll text you in the morning to make arrangements.
> 
> Surprise crypt sound awesome  I'll bring some frog bits as well as some giant duckweed and you can use what you like. Frogbits block out more light than the duckweed. Duckweed can be a bit of a nuisance to get rid of down the road, although the giant duckweed is much easier to manage than the regular.


The GSP for me is more so on the plants themselves then the glass, on the glass it's the brown diatoms  but you'll see tomorrow what I mean.

We'll talk tomorrow when you come over but yeah shoot me a text or call and you can come by my place. That would be extremely nice of you to bring the PH monitor and test the phosphate but only if it isn't too much trouble for you. I don't want you to have to disconnect any equipment/it be a hassle for you. I think the frog bits and giant duckweed may actually do quite well because the LED light is just way too intense in my opinion.

Thanks for your help Greg


----------



## jimmyjam

You will be fine with the PH change especially if you do it in the morning when the co2 is off. BUt if you think about it, if you have the co2 on a timer, its going through the PH swing everyday.. not as drastic but, unless you have some crs or other sensitive fish in there, you will be fine.

The atomizer already makes the mist, and the flow of your output will break it down even further then push it to where it needs to go. It was never meant to be put at the input of the filter, it will ruin the filter propellers, and get you having to repump the filter all the time. most people including me who have trying to put a co2 intake on the filter intake have given up very quicklyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9X0BRv_sI check out 1:25 for the instructions.



TorontoPlantMan said:


> The 3 otto's I have now are doing a pretty good job at keeping the brown algae away but it's still more or less a bandaid on the problem so I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm doing wrong. I don't have any GSP on my glass, it's only happening on the plants themselves which is a pain because it's almost unremoveable. Thanks for your help
> 
> When you did 80% water changes weren't you afraid of drastic PH swings? or were you not using pressurized CO2 at the time? I'm thinking I'm going to cut back on the lights a bit (turn off the LED's for a few days) and skip all ferts this week and see if theres any difference.
> 
> In terms of CO2 isn't the whole point of the atomizer to go through the filter though? or else it'd just be spraying fine mist from the output? Wow it actually flooded your clinic maybe that's something I wanna stay away from haha.
> 
> Do you think if I overdose with excel it will help?
> 
> I've been trying to get my hands on a pair of bristle nose pleco's I just haven't been able to find any in healthy condition in my area. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> When you say you kept on top of the GSP, how did you go about doing so? I've tried manually removing it many times with zero success. I'd up my CO2 but I'm already at 3-4 BPS so I'm afraid any higher will gas my fish. If GSP is a culprit of low phosphates and low CO2, do you know what the ideal amount of phosphates is in a planted tank? I could probably buy a phosphate test kit but it'd be useless unless I knew what the desired amount would be.
> 
> I'll give the floating plants a try and see how that works out, if you could bring them tomorrow that'd be awesome, I'm sure I won't need many as the light is quite intense so they should grow fast. I have a surprise crypt for you too that I got today


----------



## Sameer

Ischemia said:


> I blame auto correct


Oh 

I use a ph co2 controller and my ph drop from ~7.1 to 6.2 every morning in about 15 minutes. As long as its not during the day when the lights are on, it should be fine. The only thing that might be a problem is as jimmy said, weakling fishies having a problem.

For co2 I made the Cerges' Reactor. Its the most efficient way Ive found to dissolve co2.


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

Greg came over today and helped me with a few things. MY O2 levels in the tank are very low (believed to be from not enough surface movement), as well as phosphates are only around 0.5ppm (maybe could be a bit higher?). Anyway, We also measured the light with his PAR meter and under the LED lights there was 160 PAR, we were both quite shocked. I also have to adjustment my nutrients a bit so we'll see how everything goes with the new adjustments. Thanks for everyones help


----------



## Sameer

TorontoPlantMan said:


> Greg came over today and helped me with a few things. MY O2 levels in the tank are very low (believed to be from not enough surface movement), as well as phosphates are only around 0.5ppm (maybe could be a bit higher?). Anyway, We also measured the light with his PAR meter and under the LED lights there was 160 PAR, we were both quite shocked. I also have to adjustment my nutrients a bit so we'll see how everything goes with the new adjustments. Thanks for everyones help


Thats great, thats some serious par. Low phosphates is a good sign in a way that your plants are using them up. Im assuming you need to dose abit more. Did you move the lights higher? Water agitation is always a good thing. It will never be that water agitation is getting rid of your co2.


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

Sameer said:


> Thats great, thats some serious par. Low phosphates is a good sign in a way that your plants are using them up. Im assuming you need to dose abit more. Did you move the lights higher? Water agitation is always a good thing. It will never be that water agitation is getting rid of your co2.


I know, it's honestly a bit too much PAR lol. I need to get some potassium nitrate and phosphate and flourish comprehensive as per greg's suggestions and then I'll follow the dosing chart on tom barr's site in order to figure out the strength, then I'll be able to dose more yet properly.

I didn't move the lights higher as I have no way of doing so. The tank itself is 30" and the lights are only 24" with those cheap extendable thin metal legs so no real way to raise it without adding blocks on each side or something.

I'm just trying to figure out whether to add a HOB filter or powerhead in order to create more flow.


----------



## Sameer

hm In terms of Ei dosing, if you are doing it, I used this site to make my mixture:

http://calc.petalphile.com/

Hope that helps.

The hob and filter decision is hard. I went with a hydor that is magnet attached, I found it to look really cool. But now I just dont like a ph taking up so much space. Being a 45 gal I cant get another filter, so the ph was my only option.


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

Sameer said:


> hm In terms of Ei dosing, if you are doing it, I used this site to make my mixture:
> 
> http://calc.petalphile.com/
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> The hob and filter decision is hard. I went with a hydor that is magnet attached, I found it to look really cool. But now I just dont like a ph taking up so much space. Being a 45 gal I cant get another filter, so the ph was my only option.


Okay thanks a lot, I may end up putting the HOB and a maxi jet 400, do you think that would be too much flow? My canister filter is only 255 gph if i'm not mistaken.


----------



## jimmyjam

Is that 160 right under the light? How is it at the bottom of the tank?
How is it looking so far with the changes?



TorontoPlantMan said:


> Greg came over today and helped me with a few things. MY O2 levels in the tank are very low (believed to be from not enough surface movement), as well as phosphates are only around 0.5ppm (maybe could be a bit higher?). Anyway, We also measured the light with his PAR meter and under the LED lights there was 160 PAR, we were both quite shocked. I also have to adjustment my nutrients a bit so we'll see how everything goes with the new adjustments. Thanks for everyones help


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

jimmyjam said:


> Is that 160 right under the light? How is it at the bottom of the tank?
> How is it looking so far with the changes?


The 160 reading came from directly under the led's all the way at the bottom of the tank/substrate where the dwarf hair grass is. As I raised the meter it would jump to 170 and such. With only the T5HO's on it was a very low 26 PAR at the bottom.

I have to save up for the potassium nitrate & phosphate so that change won't happen for a bit but I'll be adding a powerhead and hob filter on later on today.


----------



## Ischemia

TorontoPlantMan said:


> I have to save up for the potassium nitrate & phosphate so that change won't happen for a bit but I'll be adding a powerhead and hob filter on later on today.


This is very cheap at a hydroponics store. I paid about $12 total for a years supply + of both


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

Ischemia said:


> This is very cheap at a hydroponics store. I paid about $12 total for a years supply + of both


Okay awesome thanks a lot


----------



## FlyingHellFish

Ischemia said:


> I blame auto correct


ROFLLL ahahahha


----------



## jimmyjam

hydroptech... is cheap there, they might also ship, check http://www.hydrotechhydroponics.com/

Get it nexts time your on the west end.



Ischemia said:


> This is very cheap at a hydroponics store. I paid about $12 total for a years supply + of both


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

jimmyjam said:


> hydroptech... is cheap there, they might also ship, check http://www.hydrotechhydroponics.com/
> 
> Get it nexts time your on the west end.


Im thinking of making the trip out there this week to the Markham location since it's closer to me. Do you know if its "safe" there, if you understand what I mean. Most hydro shops I've ever been to make you leave out of the back door with a garbage bag if you buy too much stuff lmao


----------



## matti2uude

Yes it's safe there. I buy ferts and calibration fluids there.


----------



## jimmyjam

lol , ya they get all their stuff from a reputable source, I use all their dry ferts in my aquariums.



TorontoPlantMan said:


> Im thinking of making the trip out there this week to the Markham location since it's closer to me. Do you know if its "safe" there, if you understand what I mean. Most hydro shops I've ever been to make you leave out of the back door with a garbage bag if you buy too much stuff lmao


----------



## Ischemia

jimmyjam said:


> lol , ya they get all their stuff from a reputable source, I use all their dry ferts in my aquariums.


Me too. Although the young guy that works there is exactly what you would picture a hydroponics store employee to look like


----------



## jimmyjam

yup he def smokes or injects whatever he grows lol.


----------



## Reckon

Yup, 160 is a lot of intensity at the substrate level. I also recommend buying dry ferts - it'll be cheaper over time and easier to manage what you are actually putting into your tank. Bump your PO4 to 2ppm in your tank and see if the GSA goes away, if it doesn't then you need to increase your CO2 out put. Depending on what plants you keep you may always want to consider supplementing with metricide.

I get a little GSA but it's more of a slight dusting on old leaves and accumulates very slowly on glass. Not a big deal. If it shows up in greater amounts then I know my dosing or more likely my CO2 is off.


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

Reckon said:


> Yup, 160 is a lot of intensity at the substrate level. I also recommend buying dry ferts - it'll be cheaper over time and easier to manage what you are actually putting into your tank. Bump your PO4 to 2ppm in your tank and see if the GSA goes away, if it doesn't then you need to increase your CO2 out put. Depending on what plants you keep you may always want to consider supplementing with metricide.
> 
> I get a little GSA but it's more of a slight dusting on old leaves and accumulates very slowly on glass. Not a big deal. If it shows up in greater amounts then I know my dosing or more likely my CO2 is off.


The problem seems to be getting worse, I think a large part of the problem is that because the LED lighting is so strong whenever it shuts off it's like instantly going from highlight to low light because the T5HO's don't do a good job at penetrating the bottom.

How can I raise PO4 to 2ppm safely? I don't have the money to go and buy dry ferts at the moment as I'm not working but can I make due with using flourish phosphorus, potassium, or nitrogen or trace? I don't know much about ferts and all the chemical names everyone uses like PO4 and such as I didn't take any high school science so using the "english" terms would help a lot thanks


----------



## TorontoPlantMan

I just wanted to post an update incase someone searching for GSA solutions stumbles across this thread...

Anyway, I've stopped dosing the Trace and Iron and Nitrogen as frequently, now it's once a week with the nitrogen, and every other week with the iron and trace. I've started to dose the potassium and phosphorus every other day with twice the dosage so if I was using 5ml before I'm now using 10ml. I can see a huge different with the GSA becoming easier for my otto's to remove and/or it just disappearing all together. I've also increased my surface agitation with a powerhead, I wanted to use a HOB originally but found better results with the powerhead. 

As for the brown diatoms they are completely gone now which is a huge relief, it was either the excess silicates or I'm not sure  

All in all, LOW CO2 + LOW PHOSPHATES + LOW SURFACE AGITATION = GSA


----------



## jimmyjam

Good post man, this can also mean low co2 and high nitrates seeing you have reduced it. or low co2 with high nitrates and low phosphate/k . Either or, problem solved, and good work



TorontoPlantMan said:


> I just wanted to post an update incase someone searching for GSA solutions stumbles across this thread...
> 
> Anyway, I've stopped dosing the Trace and Iron and Nitrogen as frequently, now it's once a week with the nitrogen, and every other week with the iron and trace. I've started to dose the potassium and phosphorus every other day with twice the dosage so if I was using 5ml before I'm now using 10ml. I can see a huge different with the GSA becoming easier for my otto's to remove and/or it just disappearing all together. I've also increased my surface agitation with a powerhead, I wanted to use a HOB originally but found better results with the powerhead.
> 
> As for the brown diatoms they are completely gone now which is a huge relief, it was either the excess silicates or I'm not sure
> 
> All in all, LOW CO2 + LOW PHOSPHATES + LOW SURFACE AGITATION = GSA


----------



## baishui

TorontoPlantMan said:


> All in all, LOW CO2 + LOW PHOSPHATES + LOW SURFACE AGITATION = GSA


I do have some minor GSA in both my tanks, and this is what I need to keep in my mind. Thanks!


----------



## blackblack

TorontoPlantMan said:


> All in all, LOW CO2 + LOW PHOSPHATES + LOW SURFACE AGITATION = GSA


Thanks for this. I was having a similar problem with some serious gsa and spots in my hygro which turned to be low phosphates in my other tank.


----------

