# SW Newbie



## Tim

Hi Folks,

New to SW, have some experience in FW with goldfish and turtles.

Have a 65 G tank set up with 60 lbs of Marco Rock from SUM and a few lbs of live rock from SUm and BA, 40 lbs of sand with another 20 sitting in a bucket to make a refugium.

It had been up for about 6 weeks, already cycled with a small ammonia spike after adding a small school of chromis.

My intention is FOWLR but my wife the realist said knowing me I will suffer tank envy and break down eventually and have a few corals 

Have a small light set up using mini compact flourescents using the 20 watt 8" 50/50's. 

My Shopping List:

Decided I want a reef octopus skimmer, BH 1000 should do it. Anyone know of a retailer in Toronto who sells them?

Despite buying a few pounds of live rock rubble, I didn't get many critters as far as I can tell. I think next time at SUM I will try and hit them up for some of the grunge at the bottom of their Live Rock tank  Any other ideas?

Most of my fish are going to be reef friendly carnivores (love wrasses) so I really want to have a CUC that will look aftre any meat at the bottom of the tank. Besides Nassarius snails and Hermits, any other recommendations? I already have a few algae eaters and my tank is fairly young so no need to add more of those for the next while.

Cheers


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## Tim

Something growing out of a bit of live rock rubble I got from one of the local stores. Anyone know what it is? It is quite small as you can see the snail above it. I figured to let it grow to get a better idea of what it was but if anyone can identify it that would be great


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## SourGummy

"This brown leafy algae is Sargassum. Some have allowed it to grow in their main tank, but it can get quite large and unslightly. Typically arrives as a hitchhiker on live rock or coral bases, but doesn't seem to live too long in our systems."


i just pulled mine out with bare hands, none of my critters wants to eat it, and it doesnt look good =p


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## Tim

Thanks! I am going to have to look into it because if it consumes nitrates it can stay for a bit then perhaps get moved to my fuge


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## 50seven

Tim said:


> Thanks! I am going to have to look into it because if it consumes nitrates it can stay for a bit then perhaps get moved to my fuge


Yes it will. Good luck with the new tank, hope to see pics soon!



Tim said:


> My intention is FOWLR but my wife the realist said knowing me I will suffer tank envy and break down eventually and have a few corals


Your wife is a wise woman and is most surely correct. 



Tim said:


> Despite buying a few pounds of live rock rubble, I didn't get many critters as far as I can tell. I think next time at SUM I will try and hit them up for some of the grunge at the bottom of their Live Rock tank  Any other ideas?


Just give it time, you will probably see more stuff show up as they have time to spread. It takes a few months, especially with dead rock like Marco rocks.


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## Tim

A small battle was won today 

I finally got my 3 little chromis (3/4") to eat something other than frozen brine. Took me 3 weeks to get them to try something else. Worse than my kids.

They have discovered the taste for a frozen seafoof medley I picked up from the long shui (sp?) grocery store. A mix of raw octopus, raw squid, raw shrimp and cooked mussels with a few scallops thrown in for good measure. I picked up a pound bag for $4.00. It was supposed to be for my wife (shhhh!).

1/4 of tank water thrown in with 1/2 the bag in the food processor (finely chopped as the chromis mouths are tiny)

I tried to sneak in some nori but no luck lol.



50seven said:


> Yes it will. Good luck with the new tank, hope to see pics soon!


Probably tomorrow



50seven said:


> Your wife is a wise woman and is most surely correct.


It's why I married her. And funny enough she was mumbling about wanting seahorses last night. Yikes. More reading to do LOL.



50seven said:


> Just give it time, you will probably see more stuff show up as they have time to spread. It takes a few months, especially with dead rock like Marco rocks.


Yeah I know <sigh>.

I want it to get a move on for a couple of reasons

1) My sand is getting blown around a little from my powerhead so I need the sand to start sticking together a bit and

2) I eventually want a blue star leopard wrasse (I haven't even seen one in a store yet but I know I want it lol) when I get more experience and you need lots of critters around for them to feel at home and eat. I was hoping that some 'pods would have made their way into my tank from the live rock I bought but by the looks of it, no such luck. I hate the idea of actually having to purchase a bottle of them to start the breeding process considering how common they are in SW tanks. I figured if I can get it going now, my tank may be ready in a few months.


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## 50seven

Tim said:


> I eventually want a blue star leopard wrasse (I haven't even seen one in a store yet but I know I want it lol) when I get more experience and you need lots of critters around for them to feel at home and eat. I was hoping that some 'pods would have made their way into my tank from the live rock I bought but by the looks of it, no such luck. I hate the idea of actually having to purchase a bottle of them to start the breeding process considering how common they are in SW tanks. I figured if I can get it going now, my tank may be ready in a few months.


You shouldn't need to buy pods. Just give it time. There might only be a few there, but they will grow.


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## Tim

Here is a quick pic. As I said it doesn't look like much with all that dead rock in it.

You can also see my ghetto "soap dish" chaeto on the left side. I added it recently. I used a flour canister (food grade plastic) and drilled lots of holes in it. I also have a penguin HOB emptying into the canister to ensure water movement. The HOB contains a bag of carbon and is filled to the brim with live rock. This gets moved to my QT tank when required.

Picked up 4 more nassarius snails a couple of hermits and a peppermint shrimp which immediately went deep into the pores of the marco rock. It will be difficult to see it in there. I probably won't know if it survives or not.

On my LFS circuit I also found 2 leopard wrasses, both eating frozen prepared foods. Both very nice looking and fat. It looked like one of them had a parasite by it's mouth about the size of a grain of rice. It could also have been a small scar as they tend to get mouth damage during transport.

Leopards don't do well in QT's and apparently don't react well to FW dips so I am not quite sure what to do here. I don't want to introduce a parasite into my tank.


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## sig

"My sand is getting blown around a little from my powerhead so I need the sand to start sticking together a bit and"

Try to point powerhead in horizontal and not to the sky. To avoid cyano you should not have a dead spots on the sand also. Probably you should get at least two less powerful powerheads. They also should not point to the back of the tank

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## Tim

sig said:


> "My sand is getting blown around a little from my powerhead so I need the sand to start sticking together a bit and"
> 
> Try to point powerhead in horizontal and not to the sky. To avoid cyano you should not have a dead spots on the sand also. Probably you should get at least two less powerful powerheads. They also should not point to the back of the tank


Thanks for that info. I have just the one circulation pump in there rated at 750 gph. I figured would get the one so I would meet the flow 10x the tank volume then if I broke down and got into corals I could simply pick up another one and be at over 20x which from what I understand is a flow corals like.

I certainly don't want to be buying stuf then replacing it in 6 months. I was looking at the Koralia Evolution 550 gph. Any other recommendations?

I bought some sand with a heavier grain the other week and it doesn't blow around as much as the original stuff did. Still getting some blowing around so I may buy an even heavier grain in a few weeks.


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## 50seven

The amount of flow in a reef tank is very relative. I have a koralia nano in my 35G plus my return pump and it's plenty. Yes there may be a few dead spots, but when I had a larger powerhead in there, the corals never really grew much, as it seemed they were always trying to just hang on.


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## Tim

Well my build is momentarily stalled because all of the HOB skimmers I want are backordered. Figures lol.

No matter I have started looking for some used ones and who knows what will pop up.

One of my crabs was murdered today for his house. His poor little body sans shell was left hanging on the edge of a rock upside down. The hunt for the perpetrator begins  I thought my peppermint shrimp had met an unsightly end as well, turns out it had moulted as I saw it hopping between rocks.

I have started plans for a refugium only, no sump, all in preparations for nitrate reduction and developing a copeopod colony. Considering a 20 gallon high as I don't have the space to hold a 30" long tank in the cupboard below the tank

Just a few questions:

If I plan on a 6" deep sand bed, how high should the baffle on either end go above it to avaoid sand spilling into the other 2 chambers?

I noticed a lot of people use a filter sock at the bottom of the down pipe to catch the debris before it enters their sump or fuge, and that chamber, if there is no protein skimmer is 4" wide. Is that because of the size of the filter socks (4" or 7") or is there some other reason? If I made my own sock, say 2" wide, I could have that first chamber only 2" and have more space dedicated to the DSB or would the sock just overflow?

I saw an overflow box mentioned on another forum and it looks very similar to the lifereef one I was going to buy from the states, except 1/2 the price and for sale by a canadian retailer

Aqueon Hang-On Overflow Box Kit (Model 110)
Maximum Flow Rate: 962 GPH
http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/aq-aqso01/Aqueon+Hang-On+Overflow+Box+Kit+(Model+110).html

I didn't see much on the net about it and according to the other forum members it is new so there isn't much out there about it. Any additional info would be appreciated.


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## 50seven

Sure it's not a hermit crab moulting? They do look pretty real.

I have a 20G high refugium sump that I will be selling in a month or two once I close down my 30G; I'll see if I can find a picture of it...

Go to melevsreef.com for ideas and tips on doing your sump & baffles


That overflow box is basically a commercial version of his DIY box


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## Tim

50seven said:


> Sure it's not a hermit crab moulting? They do look pretty real.


yep.



50seven said:


> I have a 20G high refugium sump that I will be selling in a month or two once I close down my 30G; I'll see if I can find a picture of it...


Please do



50seven said:


> Go to melevsreef.com for ideas and tips on doing your sump & baffles


Been there many times and have found it quite useful. One thing that doesn't seem to be addressed anywhere is the width of the first chamber. If I could design it so that the filter sock opening is lengthwise so it looks like a long envelope rather than a sock, I can squeeze out a couple of inches more for a DSB.



50seven said:


> That overflow box is basically a commercial version of his DIY box


For 60 bucks I may just buy it rather than mess around with DIY. I am skeptical of the 900+ GPH rating it has, but as long as it does 600 or so I am game.


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## sig

This is what I made now for my future tank. It is easy and could be cheap.

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/a/sump_model_a.html

and I will tell you more, since you are "following in my steps"

I was strongly against sump and drilled tank and set up 80G with HOB on. I just wasted money and tank looked ugly with all this hang on stuff. one month later I found that I do need to run phosphate removal, carbon and gave up and went with the drilled tank
With HOB skimmers you are always at risk to run water from DT on the floor.
I just do not get it - why you do not want to drill whole until it is to late and your tank is just in the beginning, drill it on the top >>> make 90 elbow with strainer >>> run drain line to the sump and avoid all future headache wit boxes.

It just my opinion

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## 50seven

Tim said:


> For 60 bucks I may just buy it rather than mess around with DIY. I am skeptical of the 900+ GPH rating it has, but as long as it does 600 or so I am game.


Yeah, makes sense.

Here is a pic from a while ago. There is a 4" x 4" divider on the left side at the back where the overflow drains into. I have it full of live rock & rubble. After the bubble trap I have my return pump.

If you really want it yourself, I could substitute it for a bucket until I close it down in a month.

I also have an acrylic ATO reservoir that sits on top with a gravity fed float valve. It saves a lot of trouble keeping the water level up.


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## Tim

Yours is a bit different from my idea but not by much. Is your all glass, acrylic or a mix of both? I also wasn't planning on having a hood as I wanted to be able to use/test different bulbs from home depot



50seven said:


> Here is a pic from a while ago. There is a 4" x 4" divider on the left side at the back where the overflow drains into.


Does your 4x4 go all the way to the top? I was thinking of the divider going up to 2" from the top since I plan to use a sock. If it got clogged, the water could still overflow into the fuge chamber.



50seven said:


> I have it full of live rock & rubble. After the bubble trap I have my return pump.


Do you think that you need 3 baffles to get rid of bubbles since you aren't using a skimmer there? I was thinking of just using 2, basically remove the baffle on the right side of yours, slide everything over that extra inch and have a long bag of carbon lay on the bottom along the length of the baffle, so a little more than just passive filtration.



50seven said:


> If you really want it yourself, I could substitute it for a bucket until I close it down in a month.


PM me a price  My preference is a brand new tank so it is less likely to leak sooner but what the heck, you only live once lol. I would have to be able to make the adjustments I mentioed above so if it is the welded acrylic, it may not be possible.



50seven said:


> I also have an acrylic ATO reservoir that sits on top with a gravity fed float valve. It saves a lot of trouble keeping the water level up.


You looking to sell that too or are you going to use that for your next build? I am not sure about an ATO yet but willing to keep an open mind.








[/QUOTE]


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## 50seven

Tim said:


> Yours is a bit different from my idea but not by much. Is your all glass, acrylic or a mix of both? I also wasn't planning on having a hood as I wanted to be able to use/test different bulbs from home depot
> 
> Does your 4x4 go all the way to the top? I was thinking of the divider going up to 2" from the top since I plan to use a sock. If it got clogged, the water could still overflow into the fuge chamber.
> 
> Do you think that you need 3 baffles to get rid of bubbles since you aren't using a skimmer there? I was thinking of just using 2, basically remove the baffle on the right side of yours, slide everything over that extra inch and have a long bag of carbon lay on the bottom along the length of the baffle, so a little more than just passive filtration.
> 
> PM me a price  My preference is a brand new tank so it is less likely to leak sooner but what the heck, you only live once lol. I would have to be able to make the adjustments I mentioed above so if it is the welded acrylic, it may not be possible.
> 
> You looking to sell that too or are you going to use that for your next build? I am not sure about an ATO yet but willing to keep an open mind.


You are welcome to come over the holidays and check it out. I'll PM you a price.

The 4x4 section has a double baffle like a bubble trap, but the inside one doesn't go up all the way. I could check with my own filter sock, but I don't think it would overflow.

It's all glass

I do have a skimmer now, just not on the picture. I did find that even without the skimmer I had issues with bubbles, but the bubble trap fixes it.

I took off the hood and use a home depot light fixture with a 100 watt daylight CFL (6500K) and it grows the chaeto just fine.


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## fesso clown

*Thumb's out...*

i am keenly hitch-hiking along!

My tank isn't drilled either and i plan to add a sump with a skimmer and a macroalgae display fuge to my 20. i like the sump designs with the baffles in the back so it leaves the entire front of the tank for the fuge... i've been looking into it anyway....not in a rush... so much to learn!!!
i am not running a protein skimmer yet either, weekly water changes are easy and my water has been great so far!


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## Tim

fesso clown said:


> i am keenly hitch-hiking along!
> 
> My tank isn't drilled either and i plan to add a sump with a skimmer and a macroalgae display fuge to my 20.* i like the sump designs with the baffles in the back so it leaves the entire front of the tank for the fuge*... i've been looking into it anyway....not in a rush... so much to learn!!!
> i am not running a protein skimmer yet either, weekly water changes are easy and my water has been great so far!


So do I. I have seen a few pictures where folks have used a variety of colours of macro algae so it becomes a display in itself. I have some chaeto and a piece of LR with some sargasso seaweed on it that I intend to add.

Here is a nice dark red winish colour that looks awesome.
eg: http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29997

The only thing that worries me about those designs is a lot of them have a very small area for the return pump. The last thing you want to run dry if waterflow becomes an issue.


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## fesso clown

Tim said:


> Here is a nice dark red winish colour that looks awesome.
> eg: http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29997


Exactly!

Here's one idea I liked:


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## Tim

fesso clown said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Here's one idea I liked:


I think there are a few problems with that design tbh, but I think it could be tweaked. I think it is a wet floor begging to happen LOL. I don't like those small holes at the bottom of the intake. If they get clogged, flood! I would cut it off above the top set of holes so you get unimpeded water flow under. It becomes more of a traditional bubble trap then. Same with the drilled holes in the second piece. Clog = potential flood. Either make it lower so water can flow over top, or make it teeth rather than holes.

I think I understand why he does all this though. If I heard correctly it is a refugium and he is going to have seahorses in there. I thought seahorses didn't like fast flowing water.

i would be uncomfortable with such a small area for the return pump as well. If he didn't have sea horses in it, I wouild be tempted to run egg crate so you can use the refugium as part of the return area. Melev uses this idea in one of his sump designs http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/glass/ second picture down.

I wonder if you can get transparent egg crate.


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## fesso clown

right, good points! it's really just the position of the baffles that struck me, leaving the front for display.


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## Tim

Well then why not just run a section right across the back say 4" deep divided into 2 compartments? Left side is a small compartment say 4 x 4 and then beside it the return area. To ensure water from the intake is not getting sucked straight out in the return, you could run the baffle at the opposite end of the tank to the input.


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## Tim

Well I had a nice score for xmas. Was given a 20 gallon tall for my sump, a 15 gallon for a Qt tank, an overflow box, bag of salt, a bucket of sand, and a bolt of felt to make my own filter socks.

I went to big als boxing day sale as they were advertising everything in the store had been discounted. Yah right. Everything but what was tagged as final price. Figures ALL the good stuff had that final price notice. So no pump yet. I figure that the Eheim 1262 or the maxijet 4500 utility pump will fit the bill, so I am going to hunt for a used one. Since the tank is in my living room, a quiet pump will ensure wife happiness.

Next up: Going to a place to get some glass cut. Unfortunately I am not sure what pump I am going to get so it makes it difficult to know exactly the size of the third section. 

To make things easier I made cut outs using cardboard to plan out the baffles.


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## Tim

Finally picked up my Marineland 4500 submersible utility pump today for my return. 1175 gph 600 gph @ 4'. I have it breaking in in a bin in the bathroom. Sounds nice and quiet as advertised. Shoots water up about 2' in the air. 

There was some confusion as to the footprint of the pump so I had to delay getting my glass cut. I will be doing the measurements today and with some luck a glass shop will be open tomorrow so I can get it cut. If not, well next week then. 

Darn Christmas holidays got in the way of my build


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## Tim

Well FINALLY the fuge is done. 

This is based on the DSB article here:
http://www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm

I opted for a 6" DSB. Seeded it with 3 lbs of live rock from Big als. Got 3 very unfriendly hitchikers that are now sitting in a freezer. At first glance I thought I had some nassarius snails but after a bit of research turns out they were Ilyanassa obsoleta. Read about them here. Not something you want in your tank.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/mg/index.php

I spent today balancing the water pump. The aqueon claim of 900+ gph overflow box is pure bunk if the marineland pump information is to believed. The marineland pump is 600 gph @ the height I have now and I have the valve cutting the water pump flow back by 1/2 because the overflow box couldn't keep up. One of these days I will get a flow meter and measure. I will give it some props though. I did 40 or 50 power outage tests and not once did it lose syphon.

That marineland utility pump was a bit loud at the beginning but we can't hear it in the livingroom with the TV on. So it is wife safe 

You may notice that in my fuge I have a heater in there. Well funny I forgot to silicone in the egg crate after I had placed the sand, live rock and some water in there so I had to silicone it on and wait to fill the fuge for a couple of days while it cured. Since I am sure I had a couple of critters I wanted to keep them alive so I kept them warm and dumped in some food.


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## altcharacter

If you want to measure the flow of your intake/return, just let it dump into a 5 gallon bucket and time how long it takes to fill it up. 1 minute to fill a 5 gallon bucket means 5 x 60 = 300gph....and so on

I like the design of that fuge you have going there. I'll have to come see it one day.


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## Tim

Sure just wait until it matures a bit. Right now it just looks like a lump of sand in a glass box 

All I did was a section on each side in the back of the tank, one for water in, one for water out (pump). The live rock is only there to try and seed the tank with critters. I don't want to leave it in there too long as it may compact the sand. I bought the rock to fit a couple of places in my DT where I can place a couple of corals (once I figure out what low light corals will do ok).

I hate admitting that my wife was right


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## Tim

I went to NAFB with altcharacter today.

Got a nice little purple firefish and an oddball coral frag 

The frag is just for learning purposes. 2 different types of zoas with a mushroom attached. There was hardly any rock to it so when all the polps hid, the whole piece curled up and looks like a pinecone. I got about 1/3 of them to open up using brine shrimp. Intriguing. 

I couldn't get my hands on some of the red macroalgae we saw in their sump because it was attached to a massive piece of rock.


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## altcharacter

You shouldn't need to feed those zoa's brine shrimp since they're probably too small for brine anyways. Also like I had mentioned, try to put them as high in the tank as possible. Even if you can build some type of shelf in the tank itself that sits higher so it can get more light. If they're at the bottom of the tank they'll never open up or partially open and eventually just be shy all the time.

Or they could do the opposite and grow really long to reach for the light.

Either way it was nice chatting with you and good luck with the new fish and coral


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## Tim

Well all seems well. Last night I got some to open, this morning everything was open. Looking happy so far 

The chromis in the tank seem curious about it and have been checking it out.

Last night I had to put the firefish in my main tank. My quarantine bin cracked and started leaking so I had to make an emergency tansfer. Gave it a half hour fresh water dip and didn't see anything in the bottom of the bowl so keeping my fingers crossed!


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## duckhams

Not sure if you got a skimmer or not yet, but I got the BH1000 10 days ago, and so far, im very impressed with it. Its really pulling out some dark stuff and I have it on a 34 gallon. With a slight mod on the return line, I have not had any micro bubbles either. Love this skimmer.


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## Tim

I have heard nothing bad about the Reef Octo skimmers.

Right now I am trying to see if I can create a system without a skimmer. If it doesn't work I will be without a doubt going with the BH 2000. Where did you order it from?

It has been a while since I updated this thread so the time has come 

*Fuge Update:*

Right now it seems to be working but it has been a lot of work to set up. The DSB is slowly kicking in. Altcharater was over the other day and he got a chance to see it in action. It has a TON of nitrogen pockets already in the sand. Had a recent cyano outbreak with hair algae but thats ok. I never had much algae outbreak in the DT so I have been waiting for this to happen.

I recently added some fern caulerpa and a nice little colony of brittle stars. I have lots of bristle worms now too. I will also be working on expanding my fan worms (more on that later)

I also made a bunch of filter socks. I picked up a bolt of felt from walmart for $5.00 and made a dozen filter socks. I change them every day and it seems to be doing a bang up job of filtering the water.

*Tank Update:*

I still have a light bioload, the zoa's, a baby a kenya tree (1"-ish) and a small 1" x 1" GSP with 4 small fish. I will soon be adding my lights and then some new fishies and a some non photosynthetic corals. What I intend to do is grow my own brine shrimp and gut load them with selcon and photoplankton. Should be interesting to watch and feed, and by feeding live food to the corals, (and the carnivores in the tank) it will keep my nitrates under control. Have a little algae p[roblem now as well but it is due to me killing off my snails when I had a heat problem <sigh> back to sum this weekend for more.


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## duckhams

I got mine from Mathieu at goreef.com. I have run several skimmerless tanks, with no ill effects, but im getting into sps a lot more, and the skimmer is essential to the system im building. With regular water changes and good flow, no skimmer wont kill you. =)


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## sig

thumb up to Octopus. I had one in sump and it over performs Vertex. The Bluster pumps are very good, but you get what you paid

but I hate these HOB (hard word floors also hate them) 

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## Tim

HOB is my only choice. I have no room for a sump with my DSB refugium. I could perhaps find an external one but it would be hard to fit in.

The BH 1000 and 2000 are pretty neat as the pump is outside of the skimmer so it doesn't add to the heat in the water.

I spoke to the VP of sales of coralvue and they only have 1 reef octopus supplier here in Toronto (and it is a waste of time talking to him). Unbeleivable in a market like this we have to bring it in from Ottawa Montreal or London.


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## sig

Tim said:


> HOB is my only choice. I have no room for a sump with my DSB refugium. I could perhaps find an external one but it would be hard to fit in.
> 
> The BH 1000 and 2000 are pretty neat as the pump is outside of the skimmer so it doesn't add to the heat in the water.
> 
> I spoke to the VP of sales of coralvue and they only have 1 reef octopus supplier here in Toronto (and it is a waste of time talking to him). Unbeleivable in a market like this we have to bring it in from Ottawa Montreal or London.


I remember CarmenH got it from Mopps in Hamilton. Ask her if she is happy with this HOB.

I always deal with Goreef now and I an very happy with the Mathieu service

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## Tim

I sent an email to mopps asking if they could get one for me and they never replied. A lot of that seems to be happening to me lately.

No big deal spent the money elsewhere. 

I ordered a quad t5 HO so should be getting it within the next week hopefully. Since all I have had is crappy lighting, do I need to bring them on slowly? All I have are a small colony of zoa a kenya tree and some GSP.

What I was thinking was limit the 10k to a few hours a day and then increase it by an hour a day, let the actinics run most of the day and moonlights all night.


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## sig

I never really played with my 6 bulbs T5s and never run it separately. Just starting at 2PM and shut it at 11PM.
I will say that T5s never start in full power. It takes some time to get full collars and I also do not think that they can affect GSP or kenya tree with. Zoas could be affected.

Anyway, I am not expert with the lighting ( as with many other things)

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## altcharacter

Your coral shouldn't be affected since you only have a few and they're so far down in the tank they won't notice the diference. What you will notice is if you have any coralline algae or growth on your rocks...it'll start to bleach if you blast your lights on.

But, it shouldn't be a problem since your tank is so deep to start with.

What size t5's did you end up going with?
Also, good going on buying something perfect for you tank. Alot of people (including myself) usually play hit and miss with alot of equipment until they get the right setup.


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## Tim

quad 36". 

I may have needed 6 bulb setup but if I need more I will go LED. I intend on having Non photosynthetic corals at the bottom so lighting that far down won't be important.


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## Tim

Picked up a McKoskers wrasse and a Pajama Cardinal today from SUM, both quite small. As soon as the wrassse was in my QT, the little bugger tried to jump out LOL. The cardinal has avoided food so far, the wrasse has been a little pig, eating anything I toss in the tank.

I would have bought a leopard wrasse too but they refused to feed them for me to see (not their policy) so I refused to buy. They are such a finicky fish, you either have to have tons of pods and work on training them to eat prepared foods or they have to come already broken in. My pod population sucks so I didn't want to possibly doom a fish to starvation.

One thing I will say about big als in North York and Vaughn, the staff have never been shy about offering to feed a fish in front of me so I guess I will limit my leopard wrasse hunt to them or Aquatic Kingdom who get in the bipartus Leopard wrasse (my fave)


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## fesso clown

Tim said:


> Picked up a McKoskers wrasse and a Pajama Cardinal today from SUM, both quite small. As soon as the wrassse was in my QT, the little bugger tried to jump out LOL. The cardinal has avoided food so far, the wrasse has been a little pig, eating anything I toss in the tank.
> 
> I would have bought a leopard wrasse too but they refused to feed them for me to see (not their policy) so I refused to buy. They are such a finicky fish, you either have to have tons of pods and work on training them to eat prepared foods or they have to come already broken in. My pod population sucks so I didn't want to possibly doom a fish to starvation.
> 
> One thing I will say about big als in North York and Vaughn, the staff have never been shy about offering to feed a fish in front of me so I guess I will limit my leopard wrasse hunt to them or Aquatic Kingdom who get in the bipartus Leopard wrasse (my fave)


That Wrasse is a @#$#ing AWESOME fish! Now i want one! One more reason i need a bigger tank... Great choice... jealous.


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## Tim

Be jealous when I find one and can keep it alive LOL. But yes probably one of the most beautiful fish out there. The pic is of a female. They also can change their sex if there aren't any males around, and the colours look very different.


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## Tim

The quad 36" T5 HO lights arrived today 

Seems like a decent set of lights for what I paid. Will post pics tomorrow. No gst, customs fees or anything on top of what I paid. When I opened the box I thought something was broken, but that wasn't the case. The end caps for the bulbs are some type of plastic, and there is a small plastic cap at the end that covers the wire leads that go into the end cap. 6 of 8 had popped off (or weren't put on properly to begin with) so I had to take the entire fixture apart to get them all. 

What a PITA!

But for $105 (plus shipping) can't complain. My only complaint is with Canada Post. USPS got it here to Canada in 2 days, a day and a half in Customs then 6 days by Canada Post shipping it to the wrong address, reprocessing it twice and then they didn't actually deliver it to me as I was apparently "away" (I was home, they were just lazy)


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## 50seven

Great photo, beautiful fish!!! 



Tim said:


> The quad 36" T5 HO lights arrived today
> 
> Seems like a decent set of lights for what I paid. Will post pics tomorrow. No gst, customs fees or anything on top of what I paid. When I opened the box I thought something was broken, but that wasn't the case. The end caps for the bulbs are some type of plastic, and there is a small plastic cap at the end that covers the wire leads that go into the end cap. 6 of 8 had popped off (or weren't put on properly to begin with) so I had to take the entire fixture apart to get them all.
> 
> What a PITA!
> 
> But for $105 (plus shipping) can't complain. My only complaint is with Canada Post. USPS got it here to Canada in 2 days, a day and a half in Customs then 6 days by Canada Post shipping it to the wrong address, reprocessing it twice and then they didn't actually deliver it to me as I was apparently "away" (I was home, they were just lazy)


More info would be great, plus links! Let us know how it works. We have a lot more noob reefers coming on the boards, and they're always looking for decent but well-priced starter components.

...and Canada Post is what it is...


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## Tim

I still owe some pics on the light set up, will get on it tomorrow. I have the pics done, just have to fix them up. It is still working perfectly, timer works flawlessly, it stays warm after a full day with all 4 lights on but never gets hot, all 3 fans working as they should.

Picking up a sun coral this week and a purple tip hammer. Got the brine shrimp hatchery going, kids are having a blast making shrimp. We made a test batch and my fish went absolutely mad eating the shrimp. No grief from the wife having it in the kitchen since it is for "her" sun coral.


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## Tim

Picked up a Leopard wrasse. Didn't get the bipartus that was in the pic before, got the meleagris. Although I swore I would never buy one of these from SUM, I saw it pecking looking for pods in the tank so it was a decent sign that the mouth was in ok condition. They were on sale last weekend for $12.00 so I couldn't resist. It is in transition from female to male so it looks a little whacked LOL.

It dove into the sand on Saturday so hopefully I will catch a glimpse by next weekend. Hopefully it survives. Funny little critters they are sometimes people give up on them and then a month later they finally see them in their tank


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## Tim

Still no sign of the leopard wrasse . Have to check the amonia levels every few says and keep an eye on my cuc. I have no desire to root through my sand bed to look for a dead fish.


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## altcharacter

Tim said:


> Still no sign of the leopard wrasse . Have to check the amonia levels every few says and keep an eye on my cuc. I have no desire to root through my sand bed to look for a dead fish.


Welcome to the world of saltwater fish.


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## Tim

yeah I know lol. I have to wait upwards of a month! I just hope that if it dies it doesn't stink up my tank. 

I have got the nitrates now to 10 or lower and don't want to mess it up.


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## SourGummy

if you have some hermit crabs or shrimps they will do the corpse cleanup for you


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## Tim

I have a nice crew that I am sure is up to the job, the only thing I am concerned about is can they consume the body fast enough if it is dead. I am assuming it isn't because the cuc seem to be out and about. Never watched nassarius snails, crabs and shrimp cleaning up dead bodies only the food I chuck into the tank.


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## altcharacter

Tim you need like 20 more snails and a like 10 more hermits for your size tank, just my opinion.

did it get cleaned up?

Also, I have a skimmer for you if you want it.


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## Tim

I had the tank day from hell. Although I can't prove it, I am assuming the wrasse bit the dust. I woke up this morning to a tank with green water and hair algae all over the rocks I couldn't even see the back of the tank. Yuck.  

I have the tank wrapped up and lights off. No spikes in ammonia, nitrates or nitrites (yet) but to prevent any oxygen starvation I have an airstone running in there.

I have 5 huge nassarius snails and 10 or so crabs (who are allways hungry)but they were out. I couldn't see them going for any body as they were all out in the open so the wrasse may not be dead and this may be totally unrelated. 

What I do know is I don't think my tank can support more snails as I lost a bunch a little while ago. What I did do was send up a dozen or so bristle worms from my refugium to look for stuff to consume.

I may have to take you up on your offer and borrow the skimmer until I can clean up this mess Only poroblem is no room for a skimmer so I may have to get another tank (wife eyebrows will raise again LOL). 

Lets see what happens with my steps so far because it has improved a bit without a water change. 

I may also have to get a uv sterilizer.


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## altcharacter

Tim, in my 20 gallon tank I have 4 nassarius, 4 mexican turbo, 4 troch, 3 hermits, 1 emerald crab, and a decorator crab....i'm pretty sure your tank could definitely use more CUC for a 65 gallon. My critters never go hungry and I've never had a problem with any type of algae.


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## sig

Tim,

I am not trying to be sarcastic and i am with you in this pain ( sorry my English). In my uneducated opinion this is a result of the "natural tank", when you tried to recreate ocean in 65g tank. I had one period of time when I lost fishes, which were 3-5" big and of course I could not remove their bodies. I had no implication on the tank, just a skimmer were producing more crap for a few days.
My leopard wrasse was also dead last week (as another 12 fishes from locals LFS) and I even did not notice it. In my 120g I have around 30-40 crabs, ~ 50-70 different snails and somehow tank supports them. 
Good luck

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## sig

altcharacter said:


> Tim, in my 20 gallon tank I have 4 nassarius, 4 mexican turbo, 4 troch, 3 hermits, 1 emerald crab, and a decorator crab....i'm pretty sure your tank could definitely use more CUC for a 65 gallon. My critters never go hungry and I've never had a problem with any type of algae.


Good one. these who has not enough food will die and others will use them to continue in your tank

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## Tim

sig said:


> Tim,
> 
> I am not trying to be sarcastic and i am with you in this pain ( sorry my English). In my uneducated opinion this is a result of the "natural tank", when you tried to recreate ocean in 65g tank. I had one period of time when I lost fishes, which were 3-5" big and of course I could not remove their bodies. I had no implication on the tank, just a skimmer were producing more crap for a few days.
> My leopard wrasse was also dead last week (as another 12 fishes from locals LFS) and I even did not notice it. In my 120g I have around 30-40 crabs, ~ 50-70 different snails and somehow tank supports them.
> Good luck


I am going to consider increasing the number of snails in my tank, especially if I decide to continue trying with the leopard wrasses. I had left what I had with buying more as I had several die off from starvation. Prior to this week, I had little algae and low nitrates (10ppm)

More nassarius snails definitely and probably some trochus and ceriths. I want to avoid the asteria snails because they can't turn themselves over if they fall onto their backs. Not sure about more crabs though. definitely more bristle worms


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## altcharacter

They're not starving in your tank dude. It's pretty hard for them to starve...especially in a tank your size with the amount of surface they have to clean. Snails die...then we go to the store and buy more.

That's why all the LFS have tons of them.


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## sig

altcharacter said:


> They're not starving in your tank dude. It's pretty hard for them to starve...especially in a tank your size with the amount of surface they have to clean. Snails die...then we go to the store and buy more.
> 
> That's why all the LFS have tons of them.


part of the job....

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## Tim

altcharacter said:


> They're not starving in your tank dude. It's pretty hard for them to starve...especially in a tank your size with the amount of surface they have to clean. Snails die...then we go to the store and buy more.
> 
> That's why all the LFS have tons of them.


haha yeah. I just don't like killing animals no matter what they are, especially when it is under my control. Yes even snails. At one time my tank had absolutely noting in it in terms of stuff to eat for the snails so I bough pellets for them 

Right now though there is no shortage of crud in my tank to eat.... well I think, I can't see in there right now . From what I could see, my mexican turbo is ignoring the brown hair algae so I have to find something to go munching. The trocus and ceriths certainly don't care for it.


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## Tim

I started using my home made skimmer last night and it pulled tons of green crud out of the tank. That combined with the black out has really redued the green in the tank. I have a water change day tomorrow so I may be able to fix this  I have a feeling though that I am going to have to hit Dave up for the skimmer he has. the ghetto job I have in the tank is obviously not big nor good enough, but definitely good enough as a stop gap while waiting for a replacement.

What bums me out the most is I had high hopes for having a natural system with natural filtration. This just may not be possible with some of the delicate fish I had hoped to keep. With hardier species such as chromis dartfish and flasher wrasses I think it would be no problem.


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## altcharacter

We can't mimic a "natural" setup like the ocean due to the mass amounts of water and substrate it houses. Our home tanks are always on the verge of crashing and every person who owns a tank knows that they have to keep on top of water changes, filtration, heat, flow, and 20 other things just to make out tanks look good. We'll never be able to actually mimic what the ocean does though but kudos to you for trying. Although saltwater in california is actually green so technically you made a california reef!!

Come by my house to pick up that skimmer dude.


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## Tim

PM your the address. I can come by tomorrow whenever is convenient. And btw did you find out the make of it?


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## Tim

altcharacter said:


> We can't mimic a "natural" setup like the ocean due to the mass amounts of water and substrate it houses. Our home tanks are always on the verge of crashing and every person who owns a tank knows that they have to keep on top of water changes, filtration, heat, flow, and 20 other things just to make out tanks look good. *We'll never be able to actually mimic what the ocean does though but kudos to you for trying.* Although saltwater in california is actually green so technically you made a california reef!!


Woot for Califoria!

Well I came very close. That damn wrasse! I think if I had a much more mature reef tank, and had not taken a chance on that leopard wrasse when I knew I shouldn't of, I may have been able to pull it off. The DSB in my fuge is definitely working and perhaps with some fine tuning I can get things working better. This has definitely been quite the experience.

I see that guy that greg linked to and newyorksteelo who never have to change their water and definitely tip my hat to them.


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## sig

altcharacter said:


> We can't mimic a "natural" setup like the ocean due to the mass amounts of water and substrate it houses. Our home tanks are always on the verge of crashing and every person who owns a tank knows that they have to keep on top of water changes, filtration, heat, flow, and 20 other things just to make out tanks look good. We'll never be able to actually mimic what the ocean does though but kudos to you for trying. Although saltwater in california is actually green so technically you made a california reef!!
> 
> Come by my house to pick up that skimmer dude.


I think you can try to mimic with the 500G refusiom for your 20G tank

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## Dax

Just read over your whole thread. Congrats on a functioning new setup. I see that you are in good hands with the advice you are getting. I started with a 65 gallon just over a year ago and moved to a 120 a couple of weeks back. Just from your posts, I'll have you a bet that you'll be in the same boat a year from now.

I am curently having an issue with Ich I stupidly introduced into the tank. I see you know about adding fish, but also make sure you are careful with any live rock/rubble/sand you add; especially if your source is a retailer. They recycle new stuff constantly and probably have all sorts of crap going in and out of their tank.


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## Tim

nothing except the leopard wrasse has gone into my tank without quarantine. Learned that ages ago with fresh water.

Bigger tank is already under negotiation LOL.


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## Dax

Tim said:


> Bigger tank is already under negotiation LOL.


With the person you're buying from or the missus ?? 

I'm pretty careful with fish as well, but I got carried away with some "live sand" from BA and threw it into the tank. You metioned getting some grunge from SUM in your original post which is why I brought it up. Honestly, I don't really know how I would go about adding this stuff properly. I mean leaving a cup of sand in a QT for a few weeks and not knowing how to check if it is ok. Maybe someone can enlighten me.


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## Tim

Dax said:


> With the person you're buying from or the *missus* ??
> 
> I'm pretty careful with fish as well, but I got carried away with some "live sand" from BA and threw it into the tank. You metioned getting some grunge from SUM in your original post which is why I brought it up. Honestly, I don't really know how I would go about adding this stuff properly. I mean leaving a cup of sand in a QT for a few weeks and not knowing how to check if it is ok. Maybe someone can enlighten me.


I dumped my live sand in the fuge and used it as a QT. Just remember when you are doing maintenance on the fuge, to turn off the return pump when doing it. I also got some grunge from Big Als and tossed it in the fuge. Glad I did because a bunch of whelks were in it. Fished them out and froze them.


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## Tim

altcharacter said:


> They're not starving in your tank dude. It's pretty hard for them to starve...especially in a tank your size with the amount of surface they have to clean. Snails die...then we go to the store and buy more.
> 
> That's why all the LFS have tons of them.


SUM has a snail sale this weekend, .99 cents for tectus, trochus and nassarius snails. Im going shopping. Too bad ceriths weren't on the list too!


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## altcharacter

I was there yesterday and they had a massive amount of snails. I've never seen that many.


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## Tim

I love the look of that flame scallop they have on sale. At 8.99 I am SO tempted but according to live aquaria and other sites you are lucky to get iot to live more than a few months.

I still have some green water to feed it


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## Tim

altcharacter said:


> I was there yesterday and they had a massive amount of snails. I've never seen that many.


I picked up a dozen trocus and tectus snails.

Speaking of snails, my mexican turbo, Mr Sanchez decided to be a bulldozer and knock over a few frags.  Time to get some epoxy! One of my mushrooms had a baby but was unfortunately one of Mr Sanchez's victims. I found it hanging upside down beside a rock so plopped it in a small container filled with some rock so hopefully it will root. The baby was hidden under the mother so I would never had seen it.

The green water in the tank is almost gone thank heavens. Did a 30%-40% water change, 4 hours a day of lights (4 hrs actinic, 2 hours white) aggressive skimming and used ALGONE in a HOB filter. The algone packages I have used in the past with success in FW tanks gone green and it seemed to help here. Lots of jelly around the packages. Going to continue this program for at least a few more days as there is still a little cloudiness to the water.

I also want at some point to increase the amount of rock in my tank. Having rock 1' below the top of the water in the tank is limiting the amount and type of frags I can fit in. I want some more colour.


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## Dax

Even with my battles I picked up up 3 of each (9 total). Next sale I'll probably get about 30 or 40.
My tank was pretty green with the Ich attack I was dosing. A bit of aggressive skimming and a healthy water change later, everthing is much brighter.


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## Tim

Success

Wife approved 125g tank 

However I have been told there are strings TBD


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## JulieFish

Awesome! Congrats! Keep us in the loop.


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## altcharacter

Where the hell you gonna put a 125g?!?! Are you getting rid of the 65g?


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## Tim

altcharacter said:


> Where the hell you gonna put a 125g?!?! Are you getting rid of the 65g?


Yes the 65 would have to go. That is one of the known strings. I am worried about the ones that haven't been discussed yet LOL.


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## altcharacter

Congrats man! It's like you're going to have your second child.


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## Dax

Hey "SW newbie", going from a 65 to 125 doesn't classify you as that anymore.  ... and welcome to the land of the crazies. Just say it with me, "My name is Tim and I have a problem ..."


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