# what happened to my Kh?



## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

I started a 75G planted tank 3 weeks ago for my new batch (over 80) angelfish. I moved 5-10 juveniles every few days, testing the water daily. All tests: NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 are zero. Only my Kh is less than 2dH and pH of couse is dropping. I still have 22 juveniles to move in the new tank ASAP because daddy angel has half his tail left.
I did not do any water changes yet. Should I?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I just posted these two references for another question.. they have some good information which may help you figure out what's going on. I find water chemistry so challenging to understand myself. I'm assuming that's not tap water you are using in that tank ? I think you will have to raise the hardness to stabilize the Ph... the first article discusses both this and also lowering it if your water is very hard. Hope something proves helpful.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwh2oquality.htm

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?36155-Relationship-between-CO2-KH-and-pH

And for more info.. I just ran across a post by Randy in the Invert section... he suggests these next two sites for their very useful articles.. the first is fairly simple, the second much less so but well worth reading if you want to understand hardness and pH... and I'll have to read it a bunch more times to begin to understand it well enough. But still, if you want to keep soft water fish, this is something you will have to learn to be successful.

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/waterchemistry.htm

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?36155-Relationship-between-CO2-KH-and-pH

As Randy said, after you've read the second one, you'll be confused in a more educated way. I really do wish I'd paid more attention to chemistry in school. I didn't care for it then and now I really wish I had.

Good luck.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

Thank you for the links. Educational indeed from the pure chemistry point of view. The short answer for my problem will be: add baking soda (but wait: it will increase the pH) or Dolomite (wait again: this will increase GH). 
Unfortunately, the tank is a dynamic enviroment and in my case, plants are changing the chemistry.
I use Mississauga (west of Hurontario) tap water (Lorne Park processing station) which tested good for Kh originally (7 drops on Nutrafin). How did it dropped to 3 drops (in 3 weeks, without any water changes) is what puzzle me. 
Must be the plants...the dear plants that grow like crazy and clear any ammonia, nitrite and nitrate during the cycle, they must have swallowed the carbonates as well. Or is it something else?
All I know is that I need some buffering because my Ph is 6.8 in the morning and 7.4 at night and Kh will soon disapear.
I don't have this problem in the old tank where plants are barely surviving and Angels are happily breeding.
I will do a water change tonight and see what happen. Nothing is better than a water change, right?


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

From my understanding working with inverts in my planted tank, as long as my kH is between 1-2 my pH swings are down to a minimum. It is only dangerous when kH is 0 (which results in large pH swings)

I always though the higher the kH = less pH swings ....


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

True. The higher the Kh, the better your buffering capacity is, resulting in more stable Ph. When you say 1 to 2 Kh, is that drops, mgCaCO3/liter or degree?
I use the Hagen Nutrafin test (but same results with API) and it takes 3 drops to change color. Times ten, makes 30 mgCaCO3/liter or 1.68 dH. This is at the low normal (between 20 and 80 mgCaCO3/liter). Good buffering starts at over 80 mgCaCO3.
I am still OK now, but 3 weeks ago it was 70 mgCaCo3/liter. Should I expect a "zero" Kh in another 3 weeks?
I only dose Excel for now since its not affecting the Ph. Is Excel altering the Kh?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

It was so much easier when I knew nothing.. back in my high school days. No tests, no chemicals, and fish pretty much lived, though not always. Filters were scoured clean every time, because the nitrogen cycle was just not understood at the time. Yet I had a lovely mated pair of Angel fish who spawned regularly, in a community tank, along with livebearers and several other things as well. Mind, I never got any Angel fry, the eggs always got fungi on them and would not hatch, and the other fish ate them too. But times have changed, so has the quality of the water supply and we've learned a lot more about keeping fish healthy. 

I'm on the east side of Hurontario, so presumably get my water from a different station. It's typically quite hard, with a Ph of 7.5, sometimes close to 8, from the tap. Now that my main tank is fairly mature the Ph has gone down a bit, but not a great deal and so long as I do water changes regularly there does not seem to be any real problem with stability, even in my 5G QT or the 5G shrimp tank. All the tanks are fairly heavily planted and all have wood in them as well, which does tend to lower pH over time.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

Too much little pieces of info and not knowing how to filter them, use them wisely, select only what applies to your particular situation, all that makes this hobby a headache.
I am battling brown alge in my 3 week old tank so start getting info about it. I was reading that it marks the end of the cycle (I like that...) and is because of sudden rise in nitrates. It made sense, so I went check. Nope. Zero. Checked the old tank to make sure..Yes, it needs a water change soon.
Should be something else. Not enough light. Too much light. (I cannot have both). Should I remove it? "Don't bother" it reads one post. "Remove as much as possible" reads another....
How do you navigate all this?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, one thing I can tell you, if you get one or two nerite snails, they will devour that brown algae for you. I get it in the uplift tubes and every time I notice, I just drop a nerite in the tube and in a day or three it's cleaner than it would be if I cleaned it myself. So maybe a couple of nerites might help with that issue, if not the rest.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

Where do you get this snail from? And when algae are finished, is he going to turn to my plants?
Can I borrow one from you? I'll return a well fed fat snail ))


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Actually, I suppose I could loan you a nerite, so long as the nitrite in your tank is down to zero. Snails are sensitive to nitrites, more so than fish are. But you can usually get them at BA's and of the half dozen or so nerites that I have, not one has ever eaten a plant that I'm aware of. 

Pond snails eat plants and sometimes my mystery snails will snack on one, but the nerites don't ever seem to damage plants at all. They will cling to them, but they're only eating biofilm or algae, not the plant.

The only downside to nerites, for some people, is that they lay small single eggs that won't ever hatch on driftwood. Their eggs need brackish water to hatch, so in FW, they just sit there. Some folks don't care for the way the eggs look, they're a pale beige colour. I find they just fade away over a bit of time. So it depends on whether seeing a few eggs on your driftwood would bother you or not. 

I don't mind them at all, because they do fade away over time and most of them are the underside of the wood anyway, where I don't even see them. But I've got some new wood I'm soaking that I bleached a bit, and on that, I think the eggs won't show up no matter where they are. Have to see how that goes when it's soaked enough to put in a tank.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

I bought my own 3 zebra nerite snails. I dropped them in my 10 gallon bare bottom tank where I have 2 serpae tetra, one mopani wood and one malaysian wood and three Anubias tied to them. All three went straight to the malaysian wood first. That was 2 days ago. I see them in different spots of the tank now, none tried to escape. They are probably exploring the tank and not in any mood for algae. They did a lot of mess on the bottom (beeing empty, is easy to see) so I'll syphon it soon.
At the store, the nerites were at the bottom of a tank with dozens of hatchetfish and a very warm water. Once home, while waiting for the water to cool off a bit, I decided to test their water. It had a zero Kh and a pH of 6.4. Wow! A have an API proper pH 6.5 at home. I never use because it said that is not good for planted tank. It has phosphates for buffering. Carbonates, I assume, will stabilize a higher pH, phosphates will settle the pH at a lower level.
I still cannot connect the dots but I am one step further.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Nerites do love wood, for sure. But give them a bit of time to adjust to their new home and they'll eat the algae.. mine just love the stuff. I have Zebras and Horned, aka Thorny, Nerites. Any time I get a new plant with algae on its leaves, so long as it is not thread algae, I just leave it for the Nerites, Mysteries and Otos to eat, which they do, with gusto. So do the shrimp, for that matter, but the Nerites seem to do the fastest, best job of it. Zebra Nerites are also reported to be able to eat blue green algae, though I've no experience with that. 

Zebra Nerites are actually brackish water/tidal flat species, that adapt well to fresh water. Though there are some FW Nerite species too. Brackish species like Olive and Zebra Nerites can live quite well in FW, but can't reproduce successfully in it. Being brackish species, they certainly do prefer hard, alkaline water. I see a lot of dead snails in store tanks, especially Nerites, poor things.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

That was a brilliant idea Fishfur! Thank you.
A week later and the tank is spotless clean. The Nerites cleaned the glass, the heater, the thermometer and they are working on the Anubia's leaves right now. The only downside is the mess they leave on the bottom. That's easier to siphon out than cleaning the algae, anyway.
It's not much left to eat in that tank, should I start feeding them something or move them to the next tank?
Also, do you have any experience with Melafix? I am using it for two days now and it's foaming the water and I noticed some clouding as well.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Hey, great ! Sorry, no experience with Melafix. You can certainly feed the snails.. they like anything other algae eaters like.. algae tabs, pellets, blanched greens, etc., just not very much at a time. Anytime I get a new plant with algae on it, I leave it for them to clean up, they love that. Just got a lovely big bolbitis from another member that had some algae on it, almost every snail in the tank is feeding on it and you can see the leaves brightening up more every day. They're not superfast, but they are efficient ! 

You can also move them to other tanks, just make sure the parameters are similar, they can be shocked just like fish can. Gradual change of water if the params are much different, or if the temp is different, acclimate first like you would for new fish. Sadly, no animal can eat without the consequence of poop afterward ! Hence filtration, gravel vacs, syphons, etc. Just one of the things we have to deal with .

And I've never had one of mine actually try to escape, but it is not unusual to see one perched on the rim of the tank. They can go for some time out of water without suffering any apparent harm. If I find one sitting on the rim, I usually just nudge it back in the water.


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