# Is this normal?



## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

So I'm in the third week of cycling my tank and something weird happened today. So I added a beta fish to my tank the first week and then on the end of that week I changed 20% of the water. Last weekend I did another water change also 20%. I am now currently on week 3. My ammonia has been 0.25ppm through out the entire 2 weeks. I went to go test my water today and it shot all the way up to 1.0ppm. Is that normal at all? Can I expect that to go down? Should I change my carbon filter?


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Hello,
you added fish before your tank could cycle fully, and water changes just removed the food for the good bacteria.

your betta might be a goner, you should stop doing water changes till ammonia goes down to Zero. 

Better yet, take the betta out and put it in a bowl for now and change water daily, and let you tank cycle till ammonia down to zero and then add the fish.

good luck.


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> Hello,
> you added fish before your tank could cycle fully, and water changes just removed the food for the good bacteria.
> 
> your betta might be a goner, you should stop doing water changes till ammonia goes down to Zero.
> ...


The betta is just there to help cycle it though


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

then dont do water changes, and just test your ammonia till it goes down to Zero. 

then do a water change to remove nitrates 

1 PPM is not too much to kill the betta hopefully, but in general, ammonia is toxic to fish


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> then dont do water changes, and just test your ammonia till it goes down to Zero.
> 
> then do a water change to remove nitrates
> 
> 1 PPM is not too much to kill the betta hopefully, but in general, ammonia is toxic to fish


Odd I tested it again and am getting a reading of .5ppm


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

I've never used one of those test kits but what might explain the difference is the normal level of error involved in the test itself. If the difference between 0.5ppm and 1.0 ppm is one drop of chemical then it's not much difference at all.

Another possibilty is how you collected the sample. You may not have gotten a representative sample. If you collected your little bit of water from a spot that is higher than most of the tank due to poor circulation maybe that will cause an erratic reading.

Another possibility is that your sample container is contaminated. Ammonia is everywhere. Especially in soap. Clean your containers with lots of water before using and then rinse the container with tank water (dumping the rinse down the sink) before you collect your sample. Likely Overkill but people around here like that sort of thing 

Lee


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## SOUPNAZZI (Sep 24, 2010)

Josh

I went through a Fish Cycle myself, It will take longer.
You can keep the Betta in there. It will be fine
Keep up with your water changes to keep your ammonia down. You might want to up it to a 50% water change
The Bacteria will still grow but at a slower rate.. which is fine in a Fish cycle.

I started our with 4 hardy fish in my son's tank in the cycle.. They were all fine with no stress or injuries. all healthy and eating well..

Keep up with the routine and be patient.. I've been there.. your nitrites will start to show up soon..

Your bacteria growth will be related to the bio load in the tank (1 fish). 
Once cycled and you add more fish, the tank will start a mini cycle. this is normal. the bacteria will adjust to the new bio load.

You are doing fine, keep up it up it will pay off soon..


Most of us prefer a fishless cycle.. but for some like me who have kids, a fishless cycle is not an option. 
I was worried that my 4 fish would not survive. But with the advice/guidance I received from my brother and these forums, it turned out awesome. 

You're doing a great job keep at it


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Lee_D said:


> I've never used one of those test kits but what might explain the difference is the normal level of error involved in the test itself. If the difference between 0.5ppm and 1.0 ppm is one drop of chemical then it's not much difference at all.
> 
> Another possibilty is how you collected the sample. You may not have gotten a representative sample. If you collected your little bit of water from a spot that is higher than most of the tank due to poor circulation maybe that will cause an erratic reading.
> 
> ...





SOUPNAZZI said:


> Josh
> 
> I went through a Fish Cycle myself, It will take longer.
> You can keep the Betta in there. It will be fine
> ...


Thank you both for your help. I'll be sure to update when things get sorted out. But it's weird how everyone recommend setting up the tank differently. Also is it normal that my water has been foggy for these 3 weeks of cycling?


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Looks like you still have to learn the hardest thing to learn about aquariums. Patience. The tank will eventually cycle, the water will eventually clear. Just wait a couple of more weeks and I'm sure everything will improve on it's own. Then something else will happen (usually algae) and you'll have a bunch more questions 

Lee


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Lee_D said:


> Looks like you still have to learn the hardest thing to learn about aquariums. Patience. The tank will eventually cycle, the water will eventually clear. Just wait a couple of more weeks and I'm sure everything will improve on it's own. Then something else will happen (usually algae) and you'll have a bunch more questions
> 
> Lee


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Well my tank gets little light so hopefully there won't be much. (Yes the fish I'm getting enjoy little light). Also it's just been frustrating because I've been at this since the beginning of August and it's getting annoying people walking into my room seeing into my fish tank; who don't know anything at all and trying to convince me it's dirty. I've been trying to cycle it since August then end of Sep I dumped my tank and restarted. I've been waiting since Oct but haven't added my betta fish to help cycle it since 3 weeks ago. Just a hell lot of work. Anyways thanks for your help


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

if you want to save your fish, do water changes. you will reduce the ammonia and nitrites. People say you will prolong the cycle by removing the 'food' for the good bacteria, but really ammonia will always be present if theres a fish in the tank so the idea is to reduce the stress by doing water changes more often to dilute the pollutants in the water.

it doesn't remove the good bacteria because they are in the filter attached to the media, not suspended in the water.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Buy a bottle of Seachem Stability, follow the directions, save your betta from ammonia poisoning.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

if 50% water changes are done, its possible that the tank will never cycle ...


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## SOUPNAZZI (Sep 24, 2010)

The tank will cycle.. just have to remain patient and keep up with the water changes


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

SOUPNAZZI said:


> The tank will cycle.. just have to remain patient and keep up with the water changes




what makes u say that ? LOL

what will cycle ?

what is a cycle ? what are we trying to make ?

lol I love how ppl just drop lines lol without knowing what they are talking about ..


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## SOUPNAZZI (Sep 24, 2010)

Are we not talking about cycling the tank in order to establish a colony of good bacteria? either with fish or none ?

is it not the end result of a cycled tank 0 Ammonia & Nitrites and Positive amount of Nitrates?
Hardness and PH stable ?


Better yet.. 

I'll stop providing helpfull feedback and leave it to the resident experts on this fourm...
From the looks of it I don't know what I'm talking about..


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

AHHHHHHHHHH! Lol can anyone tell me what I should be doing at this point for sure! Some are advising water changes others arent


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Chris S said:


> Buy a bottle of Seachem Stability, follow the directions, save your betta from ammonia poisoning.


Follow this advice and your tank will be cycled in a week. Do regular water changes, as per normal (once a week or so, 20-50% depending on preference).


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Follow this advice and your tank will be cycled in a week. Do regular water changes, as per normal (once a week or so, 20-50% depending on preference).


Would that still be necessary if my tank cycles properly in a few days? I'm thinking if it isn't ready by the weekend, I'll go out and buy some. Will think clear the fog too?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, to begin with I don't think in this day and age using a fish to cycle your tank is an acceptable method in regards to humane and responsible fish keeping.

That said, from your postings, I would assume your tank is still not cycled. If you want to make things easier on yourself (and make it simple), I would suggest you pick up a small bottle of stability and tonight and begin using it right away. 

None of the suggestions given to you on this thread are incorrect, but I think there are two different concerns:

1. Big Ray is correct in that large, constant water changes are going to significantly delay cycling your tank. In an effort to speed up the cycling of your tank, not doing water changes is the proper procedure....but, that is what is called a "fishless cycle", meaning there are no fish present.

Which brings us to your other side of the argument:

2. Large and constant water changes are recommended here to relieve the stress of the fish that you are currently subjecting to ammonia and nitrites. In regards to the well being of your fish, this would be the recommendation. As mentioned though, it will significantly delay the cycle of your tank.

Using stability will do both of these: relieve the stress on your fish and properly cycle your tank.

Hope this helps some.

edit: Water changes will clear up your water, stability will not.


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Well, to begin with I don't think in this day and age using a fish to cycle your tank is an acceptable method in regards to humane and responsible fish keeping.
> 
> That said, from your postings, I would assume your tank is still not cycled. If you want to make things easier on yourself (and make it simple), I would suggest you pick up a small bottle of stability and tonight and begin using it right away.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU FOR SUMMING IT ALL UP!!!! Last question.... Before I put the stability in my tank is it recommended refilling the tank? Like doing a big water change or just add it to what I currently have?


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Do a small water change, then add it to what you currently have.


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Do a small water change, then add it to what you currently have.


Okay, hope all goes well. Is there something I can get to clear my tank also or is that just pure patience?

Thanks again


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

There are products that will clear it, but I think you should stick to simply doing water changes.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

thanks Chris nice explanation. I personally do not like chemicals, as they dont go well with rays ... but that's not the case here, so stability and Cycle would both be the best option for cycling with fish. (and since they detoxify ammonia, you dont need to make that big of water changes  )

SoupNazzi, Im sorry, it was rude and wrong of me to say you dont know what your talking about ... . I just cant stand comments with no reasoning and ...


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Big Ray said:


> I personally do not like chemicals,


In general, I stay away from "additives" as well, but I have had great luck with stability - I've even used it with day-old free swimmers without any ill-effect.


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## JoshOohAh (Aug 14, 2010)

Chris S said:


> There are products that will clear it, but I think you should stick to simply doing water changes.


Alright thanks!


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> what makes u say that ? LOL
> 
> what will cycle ?
> 
> ...


Well, you don't seem to understand that the ammonia goes into the filter media where the beneficial bacteria is created. If there are fish in the tank there will be ammonia, which means it will go through the filter media and feed the beneficial bacteria. The beneficial bacteria don't float in the water. And either does the ammonia. ALL the water in the tank is pulled through the filter media.

So by doing partial water changes the amounts of ammonia and nitrite will be reduced, but not eliminated as there are fish in the aquarium water which are constantly producing ammonia. therefore the bacteria in the filter will be fed, and the amounts of toxins in the water will be reduced, so less harm to the fish.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

BettaBeats said:


> Well, you don't seem to understand that the ammonia goes into the filter media where the beneficial bacteria is created. If there are fish in the tank there will be ammonia, which means it will go through the filter media and feed the beneficial bacteria. The beneficial bacteria don't float in the water. And either does the ammonia. ALL the water in the tank is pulled through the filter media.
> 
> So by doing partial water changes the amounts of ammonia and nitrite will be reduced, but not eliminated as there are fish in the aquarium water which are constantly producing ammonia. therefore the bacteria in the filter will be fed, and the amounts of toxins in the water will be reduced, so less harm to the fish.


ok 

lets just say you are right .... LOL

and LOL @ "The beneficial bacteria don't float in the water. And either does the ammonia."

"So by doing partial water changes the amounts of ammonia and nitrite will be reduced, but not eliminated as there are fish in the aquarium water which are constantly producing ammonia." this shows you do not understand what a cycle means, and what we are trying to do, so arguing with you would be point less ..


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## BettaBeats (Jan 14, 2010)

Big Ray said:


> ok
> 
> lets just say you are right .... LOL
> 
> ...


You're idea of how the nitrogen cycle works is outdated.
I still stand that doing water changes during a cycle, ESPECIALLY fish-in, are more beneficial than detrimental to establishing a cycled tank. In a non-fish cycle, doing water changes to reduce the levels of ammonia and nitrite will allow more oxygen to be carried in the water column, thus bringing more oxygen to the bacteria in the filter.

The beneficial bacteria are going to use ammonia and nitrites at ANY level they are present, they don't have to spike to 0.25ppm to be changed into nitrite.
However, the fish may not survive that long - why people try not to use fish-in cycles anymore. To reduce stress and the plausible toxic affects of high levels of ammonia and nitrite, it's advisable to do a partial water change to add fresh water to dilute the levels of ammonia and nitrite.

Because a water change is not ENTIRELY removing the ammonia and nitrite the beneficial bacteria still have food and can multiply, more oxygen will be able to remain in the water column, and the fish will have to deal with lower levels of ammonia and nitrite. The more oxygen-in-the-water thing is important as the good bacteria are aerobic beings, which will help them multiply faster.


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Betta, this is really not needed, and I dont know why Im replying lol but my 20 years of experience with breeding rays (parents of most rays u see at luckys and gold ocean ... ) and the fact that its friday makes me  lol

"doing water changes to reduce the levels of ammonia and nitrite will allow more oxygen to be carried in the water column, thus bringing more oxygen to the bacteria in the filter."
GAS exchange is done on surface of water and surface agitation, fish need to breathe as well, hence why we have FLOW in our aquariums, so the surface water will move to lower areas, carrying co2 up to the top and releasing it to room and taking in O2. that is how gas exchange is done in an aquarium, NOT water changes, and if you do notice your PH falling that just means you do not have enough flow  with respect to the oxygen demanding organisms inside the tank.

the point of Full cycle, and adding fish slowly, is to build up bacteria population, to be able to process the waste produced. once the balance is reached, we call the aquarium a balanced cycled tank. remember, bacteria that dont eat, die off, hence why you get a bacteria bloom at the end of cycle. 

anyways, chris S has put in great terms, and sure, my info are outdated lol doing 50% water change is just going to delay your cycle, and it is possible to NEVER fully cycle the tank that way. 

Now I gotta say, A molly or Betta tank doesnt need that serious of cycle for the fish to survive .... those fish do NOT produce that much waste and they are not that sensitive, so a half way cycled tank is fine for them and you wont even notice it ... but if you are cycling a tank to hold arowanas or stingrays or sharks, its a totally different story.

have a good weekend


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Man, I love these ammonia threads. It's the only topic that makes peoples blood boil. And it always hinges on what people figure is significant. Some people think water changes are significant. Others do not.

Me? I'm on the not so significant side of the argument. But there is a reason for that. I do planted tanks with a very low bio-load. (And Bio-load is not the number / size of fish you have - it's how much food you add). Low bio-load means low ammonia and the plants use the Nitrate.

As for Josh (lets not forget Josh) he should be on the "water changes are significant" side of the argument because he is not going to do plants. A water change is the only way he is going to remove those nasty little chemicals that will build up in his tank.

His earlier question of why some people suggest one way and others suggest another hinges on the past experiences of the people who answer and those people will all have different ways to get to the same spot.

So, the ultimate answer is, Read, Think, and do whatever you want. Then see what happens and learn from it.

Lee


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Lee_D said:


> A water change is the only way he is going to remove those nasty little chemicals that will build up in his tank.


Sorry Lee, but you are wrong ! cycle transforms ammonia into nitraite and then nitrite to nitrate ..
that is called a N cycle ...


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

Then what happens to the Nitrate? Normally it is taken up by plants. If he doesn't have plants then the only way to get rid of it is by regular water changes.

Lee


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Lee_D said:


> Then what happens to the Nitrate? Normally it is taken up by plants. If he doesn't have plants then the only way to get rid of it is by regular water changes.
> 
> Lee


yes, true


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Not really, there is a fouth nitrate eating bacteria that are rarely mentioned. It's just that they don't process the nitrate fast enough in today's setup. If you have enough surface area. All nitrate can be processed; allowing a perpetual top up only tank.

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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Not really, there is a fouth nitrate eating bacteria that are rarely mentioned. It's just that they don't process the nitrate fast enough in today's setup. If you have enough surface area. All nitrate can be processed; allowing a perpetual top up only tank.


+1 although its not as easy as you may think 

there are 2 types of beneficial bacteria in general, aerobic, and anaerobic ! meaning needs oxygen, or doesnt need oxygen.

now the aerobatic bacteria that live on the surface of media, like bioballs, glass, sand, ... . have the ability to process N. meaning they can consume NH4, and convert it to no2 and no2 to no3.

NO3 is the end product, and no aerobic bacteria has the ability to break it down, and that is when we get into Zones with lower Oxygen, like a couple inch lower in a sand bed, inside seachem MATRIX media and ... where water flow is low, therefore the top layer of sand lets say, grows bacteria which need oxygen, they consume the O2 in water, as the water moves lower in the sand bed, it only contains no3. at that point, some bacteria COULD grow under good conditions, that will yank out the Oxygen out of no3, and leave a NITROGEN gas bubble under (ever seen bubbles form under a sand bed ? those are nitrogen ! or sulfure if black)

and that is how full cycle works ...

now in Freshwater applications, since freshwater is cheap and easy to replace, we rather do 50% water changes rather than promoting anerobic zones for those bacteria,

in a reef tank or salt water, we invest in ways to do this since crystal clear water is needed.


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

I think the words you were looking for are "Aerobic" and "Anaerobic". I have visions of little bacteria jumping around doing Gymnastics! 

Lee


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## Big Ray (Dec 8, 2009)

Lee_D said:


> I think the words you were looking for are "Aerobic" and "Anaerobic". I have visions of little bacteria jumping around doing Gymnastics!
> 
> Lee


hahaha

spelling ... thanks for the correction, I corrected it on the last post.


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