# Ken Kennedy angels



## killieman

Has anyone here seen the Philippine blue angels offered by Ken Kennedy from the Phillipines. He has some that he calls Paraiba and Pinoy Paraiba. Absolutely amazing with stunning finnage!! 

Gary


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## blackninja

We are working with Ken Kennedy to be the first to bring his PB Angelfish into Canada. I am a strong supported of Ken for the great original work he put into developing what is now accepted as a recessive blue gene. Just being consistent with giving credit for original work.
Check the link for my comments: http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=19408&page=14


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## killieman

I hate to disappoint you again but you will not be the first. His angels are being offered on aquabid from a middleman in Florida. I know some people who have bought some on aquabid and privately.

Please don't respond to my threads!

Gary


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## dp12345

Hi all:

Those blue angelfish you see at pj or other stores are not the pinoy strain.
I don't know why the stores call them blue angels. They maybe want to confuse the buyers. I ask if it is the pinoy strain the rep. said no. I don't know where they are coming from what i had read is that Ken in the philippines just ship 140 pcs to a certain Enrique in seattle, USA of different varieties, email is [email protected] for inquires.
Check Aquabid.com, most sellers wouldn't ship to Canada.
I know that there is no stores that sells the pinoy strain in Canada.
Will be waiting for updates.

thanks
dp


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## dl88dl

killieman said:


> Has anyone here seen the Philippine blue angels offered by Ken Kennedy from the Phillipines. He has some that he calls Paraiba and Pinoy Paraiba. Absolutely amazing with stunning finnage!!
> 
> Gary


Hey Gary, do you have any pics or links of these angels...would love to see some...ty


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## dp12345

Just go to aquabid.com you will see the different pics of pinoy strains to bid on.

dp


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## Ciddian

Here is a quick shot I found. Stunning.....










Ohh and, how about you two stay on opposite ends of the forum?


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## bob123

I just came across a site called Angelfish USA. inc which claims to have blue pinoy angels from ken kennedy for sale check it out it has pictures.


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## brapbrapboom

Ciddian said:


> Here is a quick shot I found. Stunning.....
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> Ohh and, how about you two stay on opposite ends of the forum?


oh gawd..!! this is nice!!


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## BillD

That speciman has almost normal finnage. Most of the pics of pinoys I have seen show much broader blunt dorsals; which would normally be considered a flaw. The speciman in the pic also doesn't show zebra markings, although the coloration is very nice. I would like to see some blues in person, as pics can be very misleading.


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## bae

On another board, someone in Calgary reported that he'd just bought some recently arrived Pinoy angels (zebras and smokeys) locally, so any shipment to Toronto won't be 'first in Canada'.

Those fish look spectacular in the picture -- I wonder what they'll look like 'in person'.


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## Darkside

Regardless of how they look , they'll still act boring. lol


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## killieman

Just google Ted Kennedy angels and you will see some of his fish. There is an angelfish forum that he subscribes to and you can see some of his post. Along with his pictures he also has some videos. Whats really unique about his fish is not only the colour but how wide the dorsal and anal fin is(this is he is calling wi-fi meaning wide finned). There is one video of his where the blue colour in the dorsal fin is so iridescent, it is incredable.


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## killieman

No its not a first for Canada as some guys have got fish sent to Buffalo and then went over to pick them up. I don't know why that guy would say that as he doesn't know everything although he thinks he does.


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## blackninja

Angelfish USA sells Ken Kennedys Angelfish as well as many others. We are hoping to be the first Canadian local source for Ken's line of Angelfish shipped directly from him.


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## Guest

blackninja said:


> Angelfish USA sells Ken Kennedys Angelfish as well as many others. We are hoping to be the first Canadian local source for Ken's line of Angelfish shipped directly from him.


Actually, you were beaten out by that already. We were contacted back in August by a breeder who bought Ken Kennedy's angels in the Philippines and shipped them back themselves and is currently breeding enough to supply retailers in Ontario. They bought Manacapuru Red Back angels from our supplier in Germany as well which they plan on selling early 2011.

Their current schedule is to have enough fish for a steady supply by Christmas.


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## kev416

The blue pb is in a lot of fish now. My blue platinums have it. I have many blue black crosses that originally had the pb/pb gene two generations ago. The blue black in the pic came from Pinoy Paraiba. You can see the remnant in its genetics. I'm crossing back to see what comes out. To tell you the truth, I'm not a fan of these fish. Iridescence is nice but ghosts and clowns looks like bad genetics to me. To each their own.


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## BillD

Have to agree with Kev about some colours looking poor. The broad dorsals also are a deviation that I'm not sure I like. It is more like a flaw than an improvement. I suppose all of us angel fanciers have an idea what an angel should look like in terms of body shape. I believe that an angel's fins should end in a point, as the rounded top is what happens when you overcrowd and don't change enough water. This I learned the hard way. Still, domestic angels are an ornamental fish, that have been bred to various people's tastes, and freakish genetic anomalies have been furthered, and refined. I don't like super veils, but I do like Kois. Many of the varieties aren't very attractive to me, such as ghosts and chocolates. Regardless, they are still one of my favourite fish.
How these broad finned fish would fare in a show would probabably be at the discretion of the judge. That is the response I got from Jerry Draper when I asked him how Pinoy type angels would be judged because of the major deviation of the fins from the norm.


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## killieman

It reminds me of the halfmoon betta. When the first one came out it was a novelty, now its the norm.
Personally I think the wide fiins(Ken Kennedy calls it the wi-fi meaning wide fins) looks awesome. I was never much of an angelfish person but I would go out of my way to find some of these.

Gary


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## dp12345

check out this link: www.angelfish.net

thanks
dp


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## kev416

Better to look at blackninja's site. Check out the Paraiba Smokey Threadfin. Looks like someone put it in a microwave oven. http://www.angelfishusa.net/shopcontent.asp?type=pinoyblue


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## blackninja

h_s said:


> Actually, you were beaten out by that already. We were contacted back in August by a breeder who bought Ken Kennedy's angels in the Philippines and shipped them back themselves and is currently breeding enough to supply retailers in Ontario. They bought Manacapuru Red Back angels from our supplier in Germany as well which they plan on selling early 2011.
> 
> Their current schedule is to have enough fish for a steady supply by Christmas.


Quite possible. I was told someone in Vancouver ordered a bunch a while back but mostly from Angelfish USA. Thanks for the update.


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## BillD

killieman said:


> Personally I think the wide fiins(Ken Kennedy calls it the wi-fi meaning wide fins) looks awesome. I was never much of an angelfish person but I would go out of my way to find some of these.
> 
> Gary


 I consider those fins a bad trait, so, to each his own.


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## kev416

I'd wait to see the angels that will be available at Menagerie. If you order a dozen of these fish online you'll probably only get three nice ones like the pictures show. Better to hand select them from a LFS. Nothing worse than ordering a bag of fish and finding a few with bent or missing fins. And believe me... today... that happens all the time.

And when you start breeding them get ready for a genetic nightmare. The offspring throw off everything from koi to pearlscale to blue blusher ghost. It's a recessive gene nightmare.


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## blackninja

I hope to get Ken's Angels directly from him with a certificate of authenticity. His work on the recessive gene deserves our support and I am just furthering that cause.


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## kev416

bn... Well advertise them when they arrive here on GTA. I'm sure they'll generate a lot of interest.


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## Guest

kev416 said:


> I'd wait to see the angels that will be available at Menagerie. If you order a dozen of these fish online you'll probably only get three nice ones like the pictures show. Better to hand select them from a LFS. Nothing worse than ordering a bag of fish and finding a few with bent or missing fins. And believe me... today... that happens all the time.
> .


I think the goal of the breeder who bought the fish in the Philippines is to supply quite a few of the LFSs in Ontario. He probably has enough stock to supply two or three stores now with his fish. I think the breeder said he will name the progeny "F1 of Ken Kennedy stock".

@blackninja the certificate is a good idea especially for fish that have been directly bred by his facility and sold as such. Often times fish touted as being from a specific source tend to be F1 or F2


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## kev416

@hs Do you know what lines your supplier is breeding? Zebra/clown/ghost blues? There's a lot of crosses out there to which Ken puts his name to.


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## Guest

kev416 said:


> @hs Do you know what lines your supplier is breeding? Zebra/clown/ghost blues? There's a lot of crosses out there to which Ken puts his name to.


I'll try to find out from over the next couple of days. The Zebra does sound familiar though.


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## BillD

h_s said:


> I think the goal of the breeder who bought the fish in the Philippines is to supply quite a few of the LFSs in Ontario. He probably has enough stock to supply two or three stores now with his fish. I think the breeder said he will name the progeny "F1 of Ken Kennedy stock".
> 
> @blackninja the certificate is a good idea especially for fish that have been directly bred by his facility and sold as such. Often times fish touted as being from a specific source tend to be F1 or F2


Seems a little presumptuous to call any of those fish F anything, when they are all so far removed from wild. There is enough confusion with F designations, that putting an F in front of any of those fish borders on fraud.


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## Guest

BillD said:


> Seems a little presumptuous to call any of those fish F anything, when they are all so far removed from wild. There is enough confusion with F designations, that putting an F in front of any of those fish borders on fraud.


F1 doesn't always mean first generation captive bred from wild stock. Many, many, many people use the designation to indicate the first generation from a particular strain. The fish hobby doesn't have a lock on the F1 designation either and it's used in horticulture, mircobiology, research breeding, cat breeding, bird breeding, agriculture and so on and so on and so on. I could provide numerous links.

There is no official governance of the nomenclature of fish strain crosses and if this person chooses to call his fish F1 offspring of a particular strain and not claim that they offspring directly obtained from the originator of the strain is hardly fraud it's just telling it like it is. To claim otherwise is arrogant.


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## blackninja

h_s said:


> @blackninja the certificate is a good idea especially for fish that have been directly bred by his facility and sold as such. Often times fish touted as being from a specific source tend to be F1 or F2


It is funny how I was asked to join the Angelfish Forum and defend someone who was being denied recognition for his original work. The shot was heard clearly over the bow(repeated here). A small tribute to a great breeder and person, Ken Kennedy.

12 April 2010:

"*This won't be the first time a claim to original work is lost because of some technicalities but Ken we are living in an information age and rest assured you will be awarded due recognition because millions have read and heard of your work and it will take a lot more than some unscrupulous wannabees to bury the facts.
Your finding were generously shared and created a wave of renewed interest in Angels so it is cynically irrational that any organization even remotely involved in the education and promotion of the Angel Fish would deny your contributions and make a mockery of a process designed to protect the integrity of the industry.
I noticed several question raised about whether Plat is a gene or a phenotype or maybe even just a notion. Seems like you have more geneticist and wannabees baffled but rather than admitting to their inability to follow your work or the science behind it prefer to express doubt. Small minds have never successfully comprehended great achievements. It is not for want of curiosity on their part just a lack of space to accommodate it. Walk tall my friend....*


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## BillD

h_s said:


> F1 doesn't always mean first generation captive bred from wild stock. Many, many, many people use the designation to indicate the first generation from a particular strain. The fish hobby doesn't have a lock on the F1 designation either and it's used in horticulture, mircobiology, research breeding, cat breeding, bird breeding, agriculture and so on and so on and so on. I could provide numerous links.
> 
> There is no official governance of the nomenclature of fish strain crosses and if this person chooses to call his fish F1 offspring of a particular strain and not claim that they offspring directly obtained from the originator of the strain is hardly fraud it's just telling it like it is. To claim otherwise is arrogant.


You have proved my point. Thank you. I do know hat the F designation is used all over, and is often used with a first breeding to mark a starting point.. Adding to the confusion by throwing an F1 designation in where ever you want is misleading. Again, the case of ornamental angels whose genetics are all over the map compared to wild specimens, and in many cases not fully known, to me, negates the use of the F1 designation. If another designation, specific to ornamentals were conceived, that would be more appropriate. Adding to the confusion is of no benefit to anyone, except the sellers of these fish, and is purposely misleading in an attempt to increase the price.


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## DaFishMan

Wow, awesome fish


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## Darkside

The breeders themselves use the F designations to keep their stock in order. I don't think there is really any confusion surround what is so obviously a man made fish. Especially in the cichlid side of the hobby where people are more concerned about generations removed from wild. The average hobbyist doesn't really care about filial labeling.
Actually in line-breeding operations like these find the most appropriate usage of the term.


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## dp12345

what lfs will be sell these angels?

thanks

dp


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## bob123

I have been led to believe that the F1 designation means the first spawn of wild stock that is bred in captivity. I would think that the first spawn from a captive bred stock could be labelled differantly such as G1 (or whatever) to avoid confusion and that way you as a seller are not misleading the consumer.
As for myself if there is no standard set-up, such as in dogs(CKC), then how are we to know wether it is F1 or F15. Just an opinion. Thanks.


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## blackninja

DaFishMan said:


> Wow, awesome fish


So true. It is ironic people who have never produced anything worthy of mention have so much to say about others achievements. 
There should be a separate section for aquarium plant keepers where their expertise might be better appreciated. Just sucks the life out of a thread rambling on about labels and no fish to show for it.


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## Guest

Darkside said:


> The breeders themselves use the F designations to keep their stock in order. I don't think there is really any confusion surround what is so obviously a man made fish. Especially in the cichlid side of the hobby where people are more concerned about generations removed from wild. The average hobbyist doesn't really care about filial labeling.
> Actually in line-breeding operations like these find the most appropriate usage of the term.


exactly.

the seller doesn't really care about what people will label the fish he sells anyways because he will never sell to the public (hasn't in the 15 years I've known him).

what ever moniker is placed on the fish they purchase from him is of little concern unless they claim to be directly from Ken Kennedy.

I look forward to receiving them... they look beautiful.


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## kev416

Okay I'm calling Ken this weekend and tell him you owe him a nickle a fish royalty for using his name...


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## Darkside

bob123 said:


> I have been led to believe that the F1 designation means the first spawn of wild stock that is bred in captivity. I would think that the first spawn from a captive bred stock could be labelled differantly such as G1 (or whatever) to avoid confusion and that way you as a seller are not misleading the consumer.
> As for myself if there is no standard set-up, such as in dogs(CKC), then how are we to know wether it is F1 or F15. Just an opinion. Thanks.


The filial designation is used in any breeding operation. Its used more often in agriculture to keep a pedigree of both plants and animals. 
There was a movement in the past trying to get all the cichlid keepers to switch to a different designation for WC cichlids and their progeny (g1, g2, g3 etc.) but this was never fully embraced, especially in the States. Given the wide usage of the filial designation outside of the hobby it is probably better to clarify f1 from WC or something of that nature. Or just to ask the seller for clarification.


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## blackninja

kev416 said:


> Okay I'm calling Ken this weekend and tell him you owe him a nickle a fish royalty for using his name...


That is a very good thought Kev416. I was involved in the original discussion with Ken and detractors about intellectual property rights and the right to use a breeders name and his/her original work in both naming convention and establishing progeny after the fact. 
Here is the link I proposed to protect Ken from unscrupulous imitators. http://www.bettatalk.com/strain_names.htm
I am a strong supporter of intellectual property rights and I believe Canada has a poor record on defending these rights. Maybe we can change our negative world image by supporting in principle what we lack in conviction.


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## Guest

blackninja said:


> That is a very good thought Kev416. I was involved in the original discussion with Ken and detractors about intellectual property rights and the right to use a breeders name and his/her original work in both naming convention and establishing progeny after the fact.
> Here is the link I proposed to protect Ken from unscrupulous imitators. http://www.bettatalk.com/strain_names.htm
> I am a strong supporter of intellectual property rights and I believe Canada has a poor record on defending these rights. Maybe we can change our negative world image by supporting in principle what we lack in conviction.


That would be difficult without a patent in Canada or the name copyrighted in Canada. I agree that if someone is selling fish with a specific name that person should definitely be giving credit as the originator. Authenticity is an elusive thing these days. Co[ryright laws are being strengthened in Canada.... albeit ever so slowly.

If someone buys fish from a well know breeder they should be able to call them the variety that originator called them if they keep the lineage true.


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## blackninja

h_s said:


> That would be difficult without a patent in Canada or the name copyrighted in Canada. I agree that if someone is selling fish with a specific name that person should definitely be giving credit as the originator. Authenticity is an elusive thing these days. Co[ryright laws are being strengthened in Canada.... albeit ever so slowly.
> 
> If someone buys fish from a well know breeder they should be able to call them the variety that originator called them if they keep the lineage true.


I appreciate your input h_s. I just want to find a place for hobbyist like me in this whac-a-mole-not-with-the-crowd-perceivable-dissenter, who is strong in principle and even stronger with facts. LoL.


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## kev416

h_s said:


> If someone buys fish from a well know breeder they should be able to call them the variety that originator called them if they keep the lineage true.


I see your point. It does give him credit. Now if you called them "Steve Rybicki platinum blues" that would be unethical.


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## BillD

I agree that a breeder should keep the original strain name if breeding the same lineage without change. Using the Steve Rybicki example above, it would be fair of him to market Ken Kennedy strain angels as that. If he altered the lineage by an outcross, they would no longer be KK angels, but Steve Rybicki platinum blues (or whatever he decided to call them), if you go by the naming protocol in the article blackninja linked to. You will often see Koi angels sold as "Steve Rybicki" strain. This is where most of the nice Koi angels have originated from, and he has taken them a long way from their origins, which unless history has been rewritten, started with a breeding by Jodi Ghianni. If you go to the Angels Plus website and view the Koi angels for sale, you will see what a quality angelfish looks like. Steve also has some nice Platinum blue golds, although I don't know what their origin is.


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## TBemba

If I understand the linked article what she said was I call my fish (xyz) 
Do they all have the same parents? 
No that is not necessary.
Why?
Because Whatever I want to call (xyz) it is (xyz) because I say so.
Can you make them look different and still call them (xyz) ?
Yes. As long as it's my Vision of the fish and that vision can change on a whim I will call it any dam name I want....
So if i buy your fish can I tell people I have your (xyz)'s?
No as soon as you receive the fish you are no longer to refer to them as mine.

Why not isn't that the reason I paid you big $$ for that brand name? do you not want me to tell other people that this is what I bought from you? Help advertise your product (fish).

I have no way of controlling or anyone has any way of controlling people from lying so I prefer you to never mention my name associated with the fish I sold you.

Well you could maybe mention my name after you have the cash in your hand but....

WOW unbelievable how she puts the whole deal....

Here is how I see it 

Buy what you like and pay what you are willing to pay and 

DO NOT TRUST ANYONE 

Assume nothing is WC EVER!!
and a name is just a name it means nothing 
Everything is tank raised "deal with it"


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