# About "FUGLINESS" in cichlids



## Pablo

"Fish-ugliness": just because humans think a fish is 'beautiful' doesn't mean another fish will. Apparently the characteristics we find attractive often have nothing to do with how another fish will feel. For example-

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=100_4678-1.jpg
This female angel I had (in a group) had a misshapen disproportionate face- and not as nice fins as the others- but the male chose her.

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/111olbap/?action=view&current=untitled-2.jpg
This female Bolivian Ram was, I thought, rather 'schnoz'ish and disproportionate and not very elegant... but she was the pretty one to the males

http://estrip.org/elmwood/users/libertad/images/0906/BolivianRams_pair5113.jpg
(here's what I would consider a nic(er) female up front)

so ya never know.

I once had a female cambodian betta I tried to breed to the most obscenely gorgeous plakatt male you've ever seen. Refused.

She later lived in a 38G communitly with some bolivian rams. She became obsessed with a FEMALE Ram, displaying and courting her incessantly for weeks.


----------



## Westender

Yeah, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Mind you, I was at Dragon Aquarium yesterday and saw balloon rams for the first time.

That's my definition of fugly.


----------



## Pablo

Yup. Gotta love balloon anything. Really shows that a creative breeder will even profit from the garbagiest garbage.

"Hmmm crapp eh? But if I breed crapp to crapp its like a whole new strain!"

---"Of Crapp!"


----------



## Tabatha

Westender said:


> Yeah, it's in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Mind you, I was at Dragon Aquarium yesterday and saw balloon rams for the first time.
> 
> That's my definition of fugly.


Oh no, I can't believe they did that to them!


----------



## Pablo

also mutilated are:

http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/anabantoids/images/bagour7_s.jpg
kissing gourami

http://www.israquarium.co.il/Magazins/Gurami.jpg
this is the worst- they stab the gourami like 100 times with a needle full of purple dye.

Sexy.

http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/forum/upload/black_red_no_tail.jpg
Blood parrot where the tail is cut off when very young.

All very humane things that happen every day.


----------



## Tabatha

That is beyond evil, I don't understand how people can do that to living creatures!


----------



## Pablo

Ya its pretty screwed up. Ive seen them all personally...

There's also the 'dipped in a horrible chemical solution to remove muccus coat, dipped in dye, dipped in mucus' jellybean parrots

http://zfishinc.com/freshwater/Jelly Bean Parrot Cichlids.jpg

http://cichlidresearch.com/gifs/parrot/Lipstick_parrot_DSC_0041.JPG
This is new- stabbed in the face... nice...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1411/1259391975_e52a91128e.jpg
similarly dyed oscars









zoo'ed cave tetra


----------



## dekstr

One of my sawbwa resplendens is half blind, I got him like that.

Other than the fact that he only turns one way (clockwise from the top) and that he sleeps sideways, he is a happy camper. Sadly, no luck on the females.

Occasionally he will do a 360 spin to check out his surroundings.


----------



## Pablo

dekstr said:


> One of my sawbwa resplendens is half blind, I got him like that.
> 
> Other than the fact that he only turns one way (clockwise from the top) and that he sleeps sideways, he is a happy camper. Sadly, no luck on the females.
> 
> Occasionally he will do a 360 spin to check out his surroundings.


Used to have a female betta that liked to get stuck to filter intakes because it was a mellow place to sleep and she could be sure she wouldn't move.

She did it in my tank, the display tank @ menagerie, and the other person's house she lived at. Otherwise totally normal.


----------



## Ciddian

awee i am one of those sad people who actually like balloon stuff... *hides*

I have some of those rams comming on friday... How do they get them like that? Just lots of bizzare breeding?


----------



## Westender

Ciddian - say it ain't so!

I understand that humanity has been 'evolving' all sorts of species to fit our needs and desires. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out all that well for the animal species - 

the convoluted goldfish and balloon mollies get all sorts of problems with gas bubbles etc. cos their guts are all squished in to those deformed bodies. Pugs and bulldogs have breathing problems cos of their shortened snouts. Hairless cats need to be kept in very warm environments cos they ain't got no jackets.

Mind you, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I just like the way they occur in nature.


----------



## Tabatha

Hairless cats are a natural mutation 

I used to show cats


----------



## Westender

That's interesting. 

Mind you, so really are all of our selective breeding results - all changes are really 'natural' mutations, or were until we started being able to inject genetic material into cells thus changing the makeup of those.

Even what I like as 'wild' types are the results of natural mutation - and selection.

However, the mutated body forms (and I'm guessing, hairlessness) are probably not positive mutations in that they don't enable a higher survival rate than forms that allow faster getaways or protection from cold.

We've just enabled or encouraged the continuation of phenotypes that we find some use or enjoyment from. We have 'overruled' natural selection.


----------



## redclove

I've got a female balloon ram in my tank. Bought her on impulse, the clerk didn't mention anything about it being based on inbreeding for the round body trait. When I found out, I felt guilty for about a day, until one of the standard blue ram males we already had sided up with her and now they are a happy couple. If we're lucky maybe they'll breed (If possible) and get the gene pool freshened up again. I consider the whole thing a bit of a rescue now.

I do like the appearance of the balloon rams, from an aesthetic standpoint. The female is a very curious fish and is very acrobatic as far as swimming skills go. I certainly would not buy any more knowing the process, it isn't good to fiscally support the humans practicing this, but I think it is good to support the fish I already have. Live and learn.


----------



## Tabatha

Westender said:


> We've just enabled or encouraged the continuation of phenotypes that we find some use or enjoyment from. We have 'overruled' natural selection.


The first hairless cat (recorded) was discovered in Canada, of all places!

The Canadian, British and French hairless cats carry a recessive gene; the Russian hairless carries a dominant gene.

They are very healthy, active and robust cats.

Edit: Sorry for being a goof-ball and hijacking, not intentional!


----------



## Ciddian

I know!

i hate myself now... I am in the same boat as redclove....


----------



## JamesG

Pablo said:


> Ya its pretty screwed up. Ive seen them all personally...
> 
> There's also the 'dipped in a horrible chemical solution to remove muccus coat, dipped in dye, dipped in mucus' jellybean parrots
> 
> http://zfishinc.com/freshwater/Jelly Bean Parrot Cichlids.jpg
> 
> http://cichlidresearch.com/gifs/parrot/Lipstick_parrot_DSC_0041.JPG
> This is new- stabbed in the face... nice...
> 
> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1411/1259391975_e52a91128e.jpg
> similarly dyed oscars
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zoo'ed cave tetra


I don't know the origin of this specific tetra but I did see a blind cave tetra on one of David Attenborough's latest videos, so either Planet Earth or Living Seas. It is quite possible this is that fish. Given the difficulty in adding toxic material to a fish's water and consistently getting 'devolved' eyes I would suspect it is a real fish.


----------



## Pablo

JamesG said:


> I don't know the origin of this specific tetra but I did see a blind cave tetra on one of David Attenborough's latest videos, so either Planet Earth or Living Seas. It is quite possible this is that fish. Given the difficulty in adding toxic material to a fish's water and consistently getting 'devolved' eyes I would suspect it is a real fish.


No its a cave tetra.

Its zoo'd though.

Does it not look off to you?


----------



## JamesG

Pablo said:


> No its a cave tetra.
> 
> Its zoo'd though.
> 
> Does it not look off to you?


What do you mean by zoo'd? I honestly have never heard that term.


----------



## Pablo

JamesG said:


> What do you mean by zoo'd? I honestly have never heard that term.


Zoo'ed:

The condition of beeing zoo-ed. A physical deformity of both body and mind brought on by prolongued stays at the Metro Toronto Zoo. Where they have fish- but no clue how to take care of them.










A Zoo'ed barb










Zoo'ed Labidochromis









artists impression

Basically the care afforded these fish is so horrid that deformities frequently occur.
Martin and myself tried to 'bitchslap' them if you will but apparently you need to realise that you can actually 'do wrong' and of course- nobody at the zoo can do wrong.

Just a quick quote from the CURATOR OF FISH AND INVERTEBRATES at the zoo

"We'd like to have the seahorses on black sand. We tried to find some but it looks like as soon as you want to go darker the grain size incrases. We could only find white marine substrates"

I assure, you it took all the self control I've ever had to not laugh when she said that to my face.

I could go on but I'll laugh too hard and I have a full stomach....... They feed their predatory machrobrachian shrimp CARROTS though... Duh? Also they have a tank of pomacea bridgesii (apple snails) which is too small, has NOTHING for them to do (theyre actually rather bright) and just has water and a smoke machine... so lame...


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

*Omg!*

Balloons are CYOOOT! I like them. So there.

But the cruelty to the fish... that's beyond belief. Cutting off the TAIL of baby fish! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!! Dying/painting also qualifies as horrific cruelty.

Surely no self-respecting pet store in Canada would participate in this kind of thing?

W


----------



## Tabatha

ROFLAO! Surely you jest, of course these fish are available in Canada!


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

*well that's awful.*

We should maintain a wall-of-shame somewhere on the web whenever fish stores that sell these are found, they should be listed, along with the phone number of whoever manages the store and whoever manages their fish room.

Warren


----------



## Tabatha

I think you'd be asking for legal trouble if you did that. It's like docking tails in dogs or declawing cats. Very few people realize that declawing a cat is actually amputating the digits to the first knuckle. Despite this mutilation, it's still legal in Canada, not Europe though.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

*ewww!!!*

Well..... Bless my soul.... I didn't know that either (about declawing).

Even NOT knowing that, I still considered declawing my cat to be cruel, because God made them with claws and as much as it's hard on my sofa, I feel the choice is between having a cat, who has claws, or not having a cat, rather than modifying said cat to go with my sofa, so I would never declaw my cat. I did however have the boy-bits neutralized. Perhaps that's cruel, too, come to think of it.

I also consider docking tails and clipping ears to be vanity, mixed with cruelty, even if done with anaesthesia. I don't think it would be making legal trouble. Nobody is accusing them of anything illegal. After all someone can be cruel, inhumane, and unethical, without being criminally so. Nevertheless, we as consumers should be able to ask for our pet shops to be as cruelty free as possible, or else we take our money elsewhere. It's merely the necessary thing in any free market, or in any free society!

(Okay, now I'm sounding pompous!) 

W


----------



## Ciddian

The way you can hurt the stores you dont agree with.. eg, selling dyed fish, tatto'd fish.. mutilated fish.. etc etc is just dont buy. Feel free to let the manager know why too.. Doesnt hurt. 

The reason my boss carries those stupid tattoo'd "i <3 Mom" mollies is cause they sell damn well. They bring in big money.. as as long as someone is willing to buy, they will be there.

Ohh and i have stood in on a declaw.. DESCUSTING! D: The sound alone i will never forget.


----------



## KhuliLoachFan

*next time I see it, I'll ask to speak to the manager.*

Well, next time I see it, I'll ask to speak to the manager.

W


----------



## Pablo

Ciddian said:


> The way you can hurt the stores you dont agree with.. eg, selling dyed fish, tatto'd fish.. mutilated fish.. etc etc is just dont buy. Feel free to let the manager know why too.. Doesnt hurt.
> 
> The reason my boss carries those stupid tattoo'd "i <3 Mom" mollies is cause they sell damn well. They bring in big money.. as as long as someone is willing to buy, they will be there.
> 
> Ohh and i have stood in on a declaw.. DESCUSTING! D: The sound alone i will never forget.


Its a de-finger. Terrible terrible thing.


----------



## Tabatha

*Death by Dyeing*

Death by Dyeing: http://www.deathbydyeing.org/

What's Wrong with a Painted Angel?: http://westerncichlids.com.au/whats-wrong-with-a-painted-angel/

Why it's Cruel to Dye: http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=72

Magazine Publishes Guide to Cosmetic Fish Surgery: http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=957


----------



## Pablo

*
The reason my boss carries those stupid tattoo'd "i <3 Mom" mollies is cause they sell damn well. They bring in big money.. as as long as someone is willing to buy, they will be there.*

Not if you plaster the store with posters of fish being tortured and dyed.


----------



## Ciddian

yea... then i would be fired and i wont be able to enjoy that job and they'll still bring in more...

Dont think i dont give the people the low down on exactly what happens guys. I tell them exactly what they do to these fish, i just cant state really how i feel about it. I just mention i dissagree and enjoy the more natural look of a fish instead of a modifide one.

After all of that information.. they still want them. I cant refuse to sell them.


----------

