# What to do when an order shows up DOA



## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Last week I placed an order with overnight delivery from a supplier that is frequently on line here. I am not saying who, as I am hoping we can come to an amicable solution.
I ordered about 30 snails and a beautiful lobo.
We arranged a shipping arrival date, as John was going to be home all that day.
UPS delivered the package, we have a "no signature required arrangement". They didn't knock on the door, and just left the package near the shed, at the other side of the driveway.
By the time John found the package it was over two hours since it had been dropped off, and being as it was -13 that day, all the contents were ice cold.
We floated everything, and about 1/3 of the snails didn't survive. Neither did the lobo. The whole order was about 180.00 or so.
UPS has not taken responsibility for the issue, as the box was not labelled as to "live animals". 
The seller has not taken responsibility either.
So we got screwed. Or is this just the way it is, and buyer beware, if you order in the winter and it dies, too bad?


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## kookie_guy (Oct 15, 2014)

Wow that sucks. I hate UPS. They probably kicked the package up the driveway, lol. You ever see how those guys handle your parcels??

As much as that sucks, I don't think there's much you can do since you have the no signature required arrangement. Yes he should have at least knocked on the door, but that's UPS for you.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Yeah, technically not the sellers fault but he should have put "live animals" on the box to ensure that someone would get it.

Also, was it insured? 

Lastly, -13 shouldn't matter much if the package was insulated and heated. The box I picked up from Buffalo was sitting in pretty much the same conditions...actually worse.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I had the same issue with the $1000 order left on the porch by Fedex. even without knocking. I seen the message in the delivery status - "Nobody home. left on the porch. No signature on delivery required? When called to the store - the answer was:" do not worry, it is 100% insured". I believe package insured, but how you are going to prove, if it got stolen.
I do not know what is the rate they should pay for the signature on delivery, but I do not like this process. Live stock is even more complicated. Do you expect UPS will take it to storage if signature required, but nobody home?

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## Bullet (Apr 19, 2014)

Similar experience as Sig with Fedex
$500 order left on my front door step while I was home 
No knock, no signature, just an expensive box left out in the rain 
I expected more from Fedex but at least my shipment wasn't livestock 
As Sig said, God knows who would be at fault if the package was stolen or damaged by the weather

In your case Crayon, if there is no resolution, I suggest that you inform the seller that you will post a complaint about him / her on the forum unless a mutually agreed solution is received 
If the seller won't agree to it or doesn't care, then post something 
At least you gave fair warning 
Your post will make you feel better and will surely warn others to be cautious of this seller


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Since the order was "free delivery" and insurance wasn't an option listed or offered, I believe that the seller is responsible for selecting the most appropriate, safest, and best way to ensure his order arrives alive. I have no say, or control in this, except to ensure that someone is home to receive it. The box had a heat pack, but in all likelihood, this order was sitting in the back of his truck, unheated, since he loaded up in the morning. Since it got dropped off at noon, this box was probably cold for 4 hours before it got dropped off plus an additional 2 sitting in our snow bank.

So what about responsibility of the shipper? For sure I am not purchasing from them again, if this is what happens. Don't you think they would care as well that their livestock arrives alive? So far all I've gotten is a "well, we asked for an email verification that the package was delivered and we sent that to you at 4" I guess they think that in lieu of a knock on the door an email is enough to alert us that the package has been delivered.


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## y4zhuang (Oct 2, 2013)

Agree with bullet here. Leave feedback. I don't mean to say the seller did anything wrong. but i think its helpful for all of us to know as much as we can and make a decision for ourselves. I would only buy livestock from the LFS. but i agree it might be far for you if you don't live close to the stores. 

Wow.. so you bought a lobo and snails for 180?! i would assume prob at least $120 in snails. Damn.... a plus, they do breed and i have almost never needed to replenish my snails as they just replenish themselves  still sucks.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

70.00 lobo, 40 snails, cause my blue hermits keep killing them, some fish food, tax, total 189.00


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Just a suggestion so you don't get more of a headache. Leave a neutral feedback.
This is a former mod telling you what you should probably do


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## simba (Jun 9, 2009)

Why dont you say who's the seller is so we all can learn from this experiences.I dont think nothing wrong about saying it since you actually experienced it.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

simba said:


> Why dont you say who's the seller is so we all can learn from this experiences.I dont think nothing wrong about saying it since you actually experienced it.


I totally understand your point of view, however I don't want to use this thread as a trash dump and start a war.
So I will be leaving neutral feedback, and will also post a note on their retail thread. I think that's the appropriate place.


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## y4zhuang (Oct 2, 2013)

No need to publicly say his name on this thread. IF we do interact with him, his feedback is there. Just an experience. I had hermits that would always eat my snails. I don't see much that hermits can do that isn't already taken care of by the cleaner shrimp, and various snails/conches. I threw my hermits in the sump


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

tough call... Even if the shipper said it needed a signature, your barcode sticker nulls that.

In future, and this is for everyone. Make sure you have notifications. Most couriers have the option, and with us all walking around with our phones that most have setup to their email account, the moment the driver scans as delivered, you get an email (well, it sometimes take a bit, but you get notification)

I live in an apartment building. I have come home to find parcels (also expensive) sitting in the front common, non secured entrance.... 

I think the seller should offer something, like a discount. But I do feel because you have a no signature agreement, most of this will have to be shouldered by you.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

J_T said:


> tough call... Even if the shipper said it needed a signature, your barcode sticker nulls that.
> 
> In future, and this is for everyone. Make sure you have notifications. Most couriers have the option, and with us all walking around with our phones that most have setup to their email account, the moment the driver scans as delivered, you get an email (well, it sometimes take a bit, but you get notification)
> 
> ...


My email notification showed up 4 hours after the delivery.

Our front door is literally 6 feet from the road. He actually had to walk further to put the package at the shed than knock at the door. No signature does not mean "don't knock on the door". It just means he is allowed to leave the package if someone is not home. John was home. And yes, we know he didn't knock, cause the dogs will all bark as soon as they hear someone at the door.


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

Crayon said:


> My email notification showed up 4 hours after the delivery.
> 
> Our front door is literally 6 feet from the road. He actually had to walk further to put the package at the shed than knock at the door. No signature does not mean "don't knock on the door". It just means he is allowed to leave the package if someone is not home. John was home. And yes, we know he didn't knock, cause the dogs will all bark as soon as they hear someone at the door.


I am not suggesting what happened was "right". I am answering it from many experiences with the couriers, and as a business. I have been working with the three big ones for the last 15 years at my work places. And lately, they are getting worse. Trying to save time/money where they can. I had an air shipment that was 30$ (what I charged my customer). I got my bill, and they cubed it, charged administration fees, etc, etc, final bill - Just over $60... Then the customer wasn't even there... It could have gone ground...


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## Bullet (Apr 19, 2014)

While this does sound like a courier foul up and apologies for the thread hijack but I would like to make a suggestion to perhaps offer assistance that may help to remedy this unfortunate event. We all know the heart break of dead creatures don't we ...

I am in sales and I travel to Barrie/Orillia area for business approx once a week - weather permitting of course. My trips are business related and done during "office" hours so no evenings or weekends

To the seller: I am happy to pick up and deliver a replacement of livestock to Crayon - same day to her door - don't worry I will knock ! 

Crayon: Up to you if you wish to pursue - I want to offer my services to the forum - nothing in it for me 

I do not know where the seller is, but I can go as far west as the Hamilton / Burlington area and as far east as Durham region

No questions asked, no names given - Just throwing it out there - let me know if I can help 

Sam


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Sam, if you are up in the Barrie area at any time, for any reason, I now expect you to stop in and say hi and have coffee! No excuses!
John's shop is at the house, so he works from home. I work from home on Fridays, too.
I will take you up on the offer some time.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

J_T said:


> I am not suggesting what happened was "right". I am answering it from many experiences with the couriers, and as a business. I have been working with the three big ones for the last 15 years at my work places. And lately, they are getting worse. Trying to save time/money where they can. I had an air shipment that was 30$ (what I charged my customer). I got my bill, and they cubed it, charged administration fees, etc, etc, final bill - Just over $60... Then the customer wasn't even there... It could have gone ground...


I agree JT, and sorry, I didn't mean to sound argumentative. We have already opened a claim with UPS (called them as soon as we floated the livestock to say WTF), and got push back about the no signature thing. Someone from UPS was supposed to call us back and escalate the claim, but it hasn't happened. Probably never will.

Thanks everyone for your discussion on this. I am sure we have all run into unexpected situations like this and we live and learn.
For future reference, nerites snails handled the cold, zero losses. Cerith snails can't handle the cold and those are the ones we lost.


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## explor3r (Mar 14, 2010)

Wow that sucks but this is my input as a hobbiest and as a seller also..

Signature required is a must but also if you expecting a package you might want to stay around to make sure you get the package.
It does to mean you have to stay all day long home waiting for a package thats when trucking number helps too so you can always call and try to find where the package is, Fedex usually give you a time frame of dropping..

Labeling LIVE ANIMALS won't help since most companies will make you sign a form where they don't make responsible for Live animals when shipping.. so there you go they never lose.

The best way I find to receive packages and make sure you get them when you suppose to get them is PICK UP AT LOCATION.. this ensure than you will get your package, you might have to drive to get it in case you don't have a location near you but at the same time you always get your package..

I had this happening to me where they just dropped the box on the door but I been lucky enough that never lose anything.
Also I sent many packages where they dropped the box on the middle of winter for hours but because of my excellent packing I been lucky enough that things survive...

Now as a seller if this happens to one of my costumers without questions I would replace the content but I would charge for the shipping...thats just me..

Many times is not the sellers to blame I would say shipping companies are a headache and they always win and we always lose thats just the way it is...


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

Sorry this happened, what a mess.

Is also an interested moral dilemma in as cliche as it sounds.

Can you expand on the "no signature required arrangement"? Who's choice was that? I think it's an important aspect in laying blame.

Is the assumption that if it was delivered and brought inside immediately all would be well? Only asking because you've mentioned it was probably already on a cold truck for four hours.

\edit: also note in regards to their claim process you will need to be patient, they generally commit to responding in (something like) 10 business days.


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## Bullet (Apr 19, 2014)

Crayon said:


> Sam, if you are up in the Barrie area at any time, for any reason, I now expect you to stop in and say hi and have coffee! No excuses!
> John's shop is at the house, so he works from home. I work from home on Fridays, too.
> I will take you up on the offer some time.


Very kind of you - thank you 
Let me know if I can help


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Greg_o said:


> Can you expand on the "no signature required arrangement"? Who's choice was that? I think it's an important aspect in laying blame.
> 
> Is the assumption that if it was delivered and brought inside immediately all would be well? Only asking because you've mentioned it was probably already on a cold truck for four hours.


We live in a small village and the UPS drop off is 40 minutes return from our place, so not really close, but in hind sight, would have been a better solution. The last time we had a live order, we did pick up, and got charged 3.00 for the privilege of driving in to Barrie and picking up from the depot (go figure).

UPS and FEDEX both have an opt out program for signatures, which in the past meant they were allowed to leave the package if no one was home. In the past month we have noticed that they are just dropping off without knocking, which is not what the program was supposed to allow them to do. The no signature was meant to allow them to leave the package if there was no answer. They should at least be knocking at the door and attempting to deliver into our hands.

In terms of the "cold already on the truck" you make a good point Greg. I wonder what the seller would have said if we had called him and told him that arrived safely, but was ice cold. The package did have a hot pack, but it was spent.


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

If it was UPS's choice to deliver it with out a signature that should work to your benefit when dealing with both UPS claims dept (however if it wasn't insured you won't get much compensation, their standard agreement is something like 50 cents per pound) and the retailer.

Lets not forget when you pay a courier to deliver your goods you've entered a contract with them to fulfill the delivery per their terms. In this case the contract is between the retailer and the courier - has the retailer contacted UPS or have they left that up to you?

I would hope in this case the retailer offers to replace your losses. They are in business to serve you. The risk should not be on the customers hands, however this serves as a good reminder to all to check the retailers doa policy before ordering.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

I am communicating with the seller today. Will see what happens. Although there was a mention of a guarantee, there is also a comment about delivery issues are not their problem.

So......dead on arrival, not their responsibility? So then it must be mine?

Haven't heard from UPS this week yet.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

There's a lot of stupid people out there who just don't care.

Writing notes goes a long way. A brightly coloured note on the door is sure to catch attention, and if you take a photo of the note with a timestamp, you can prove to the shipper that the delivery guy is a dolt.

Even though the seller is not at fault for this, Alex makes a good point of the seller going out of his way to make it known that the package contains live animals and should be treated with care as such. I know the UPS and FedEx guys who come by my place (rural area) and they always are on the ball and careful, so hopefully not everyone is experiencing this.


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