# Algae problem



## chi

Hi everyone
I am new to the forum. I need help for my 100g (i think) tank.
I have 5 redcap goldfish and 3 neon tetra and few windelov Java fern. Bottom of tank is ~1" fine gravel (5-8mm) a marineland 400 filter. 
I had clear bottom before and every thing looks ok. After I add the gravel in the water turn greenish cloudly . I had replace water and it only last a week or so. Now I can not even see the other side. 

Is there a way to fix without removing the gravel?

Thank


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## TorontoBoy

Your Marineland 400 filter does 400gph. Your tank is 90G. With goldfish you should be getting about 10x filtering, or 900gph. You need to add another filter such as an Aquaclear 110 (500gph). I think you are currently underfiltered.

Is your tank cycled?


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## chi

TorontoBoy

I think my tank is cycled. if you means water cycled between tank and filter. I will try to get another filter in.

Thanks


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## Y2KGT

Are you using the Marineland cartridges in your Emperor 400 filter? If so how often are you replacing the cartridges?

How much light do you have on this tank and for how many hours is the light on for? Does the tank get any natural light?

How long has this tank been set up for?

Can you provide a picture of the tank?
--
Paul


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## chi

y2kgt

I use emperor 400 filter, that have not yet replace since 1 year ago. No direct sun light to tank. I use 48" 30 w light for 12 hr.

This is not a new tank. The new set up was done may be for 3-4 weeks now.
photo will be available asap.
Thanks


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## Y2KGT

chi said:


> y2kgt
> 
> I use emperor 400 filter, that have not yet replace since 1 year ago. No direct sun light to tank. I use 48" 30 w light for 12 hr.
> 
> This is not a new tank. The new set up was done may be for 3-4 weeks now.
> photo will be available asap.
> Thanks


You're supposed to change the cartridges every month so on the 400 you should change one on the 1st of the month and the other one on 15th. You probably have lots of crap that is producing Nitrates and therefore feeding the algae.

You may want to try reducing the photoperiod to 8 hours.

You say the filter is a year old but your setup is only 3 or 4 weeks old. Did you move this filter from another tank that was already running for a year? If not your tank may not yet be cycled as it takes usually more than a month to do a proper cycle.

Have you checked your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels?
--
Paul


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## balutpenoy2oy

You have green dust algae,cut back your light to; no lights until dust disappear or four hours for 2 wks and see what will happen. GDA mostly from too much photo period as I experienced and from the net....


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## pyrrolin

Sounds like you need a full lesson on cycling, full tank maintenance and so on.

First thing you need is a master test kit

There is a sticky here somewhere on cycling your tank

Im guessing you aren't cycled at all. Stick with this forum and we can help you learn almost everything.

Once you have a master test kit, let us know the readings of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

Im not positive, but im sure those goldfish and neon tetras don't mix well, the gold fish will eventually have neon poop.


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## xriddler

Did you rinse the gravel when you put it in? which brand and colour of gravel did you get?

If you did, is your glass full of greenish or has your water actually turned green itself. You are not only underfiltered but you are super underfiltered. I have seen someone with 3 high gallon rated HOB filters on a 90 gallon tank for one goldfish(he crazy but thats how much he loved it) 

If your water is green itself you are getting green water and you should turn down the lighting hours and get a uv sterilzer. Neons are also schooling fish that do best in groups of 10 or more besides if you want goldfish you should get rid of the neons since soon enough your goldfish will nomnom on them and like what pyrrolin said make neon poop.


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## pyrrolin

if you are only using 1 30 watt bulb, that will not be near enough light for even low light plants. I'm guessing its a single 48 inch T8.

just 1 inch of gravel is also not enough for a planted tank, should double it at least.

I am assuming the 5 goldfish are new and about 2 inches or so long, if this is correct and adding the 3 neons, you shouldn't have much problem cycling your tank for this smaller bio load once you learn how.

We are thinking the tank is a 90 gallon, is it 4 feet long, 18 inches deep and 24 inches high? That is a standard 90 gallon.

Your filter is way under powered like others have said. A good addition would either be a canister filter or aquaclear 110. Canister would be best but costs more.

You also need to make sure the intake of the filter is as low as you can make it.

Tip, many of us when starting up a new tank for fish we don't have experience with post our plans to get feedback.

There are general tank types

Goldfish
cichlids
community
semi aggressive
shrimp

Is is usually a bad idea to mix these types.

Do not expect to learn even the basics over night, it takes time and patience but can be very rewarding.

I am fairly experienced now and I am in the planning stages of a new setup. I got some feedback on substrate and will be buying the supplies soon. Because of my planning and asking questions, I should end up with a very beautiful tank in the end with no issues. I just have to think about and find the hardscape I want to use.

substrate is the technical term we use for the gravel, sand, dirt, whatever we have on the bottom of the tank.

Hardscape is things like wood and rocks used to decorate the tank.

Bio load is the amount of waste the fish produce and the corresponding bacteria needed to control that waste.

Just be sure to take things slow unless someone says you need to do something right away, which usually means if you don't do it, fish are going to die.

here is one thing you need to do right away. If you have never in the 3 or 4 weeks you have had the tank setup, changed any of the water, then what I would recommend very strongly is to take out 25 percent of the water and use the gravel vacuum to pick up the gunk that is in the gravel. This will do a couple things, first, reduce the green look and second, reduce nitrates which is probably part of the problem.


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## Fishfur

There is a 'sticky' at the top of the Beginner forum that explains the nitrogen cycle for aquariums. You should read it, it'll help make things clearer. The word cycle, in reference to an aquarium, means a process during which some specific types of bacteria in the filter consume the ammonia or nitrite from a tank and convert it to less toxic compounds. Ammonia is what the fish poop turns into first, then nitrite, last nitrate. Nitrite is as bad as ammonia is, nitrate is less toxic, but not non toxic. You need appropriate filters, well maintained, [cleaned] regularly, and regular partial water changes to keep nitrate levels down once the tank has cycled.

Pyrrolin, I just wanted to clarify a bit, the term 'bio load' refers to the organic waste from a tank that produces ammonia when it breaks down. Poop from the livestock, left over fish food, dead animals & dead plant matter all contribute to bio load. There is also biofilm, which is literally a slick feeling film of bacteria and other small organisms that forms on all surfaces in a tank over time. It's a good food source for fish fry or shrimp & snails, but it takes a few months to build up enough to serve as a food source. Biofilm doesn't add much to bioload, though I suppose it does contribute something. Bacteria eat and poop too.

I mentioned it in case there might have been any confusion with the bacteria that are needed for effective filtration. The filter bacteria are not part of a bioload. They process the ammonia which results from the bioload, as the water passes through the filter.

No question that Goldfish are very popular, but they have needs you should meet, for them to be healthy. They are one of the dirtiest fish, because they eat so much. What goes in must come out the other end . As others have said, you need to greatly increase the filtration for this tank.

Goldfish make pretty bad tank mates for tropical fish like neons, for a couple of reasons. For one, Goldlfish prefer rather cold water, compared to the temperatures many tropical fish need. There are 'tropical' fish that like cooler water, but Neons are not one of them. Goldfish don't need a tank heater, Neons do. Temperatures too high or low cause stress. Stress can kill fish. It harms their immune systems, weakens the animals, and even if it doesn't kill outright, it may shorten lifespans dramatically. Instead of five or more years, a Neon might live only a year, or only a few months.

Also, the warmer the water is, the less oxygen it can hold. Goldfish living in water warm enough for Neons may end up gulping air at the surface, thanks to an oxygen shortage in the water. Another stress for them.

The same holds for Neons kept in water that's too cold; stress. And as has been said, goldfish will eat neons. A rule of thumb is that if a fish or shrimp is small enough to fit inside the mouth of another fish, chances are good the larger fish will eat the smaller one. Sooner or later, Neons will be snack bites for goldfish.

Goldfish grow fast. Even if they are small now, they won't be for long. Though you have a fair size tank, once the goldfish grow, you won't have room for any other fish. Goldfish are also infamous for destroying scapes and plants. If you are hoping for a pretty planted tank, sorry to say, but Goldfish will probably make a mess of it. They like to dig plants up and eat a number of them.

The greenwater you describe may be from too much light, or too much bioload - fish poop or food leftovers rotting in the tank.. because they're not being filtered out properly. Frequent partial water changes help. Make sure fish are fed no more than they can eat completely in 3 minutes, not more than twice a day. Shorten the hours for the light.

If you have only one 30W bulb over this tank, there are very few plants that will grow under it. Java ferns, anubias or java moss should, once the water clears up, but for anything else you'll need more light.

It would help us to help you, if you get the test kit and find out what your water parameters are. Parameters are the physical properties of the tank: Temperature; pH; water hardness, which is referred to as GH & KH; levels of ammonia, nitrite and/or nitrate.

A fully cycled tank would have tests that read Zero ammonia, Zero nitrite, and ideally, less than 50 ppm. nitrate. Higher that that is toxic. pH & hardness won't affect the cycle, but do affect the fish. A tank needs to have water with values close to what your fish need for good health.

Softer, acidic water is preferred by fish like Neons or Angelfish, while harder, more alkaline water is better for Goldfish. Many fish are able to adapt to values that are not ideal for their species, up to a point, but big differences like the ones with Neons and Goldfish means either one or both species just won't get what they need. It's important to keep the values as stable as possible, without large variations in pH or hardness between one water change and the next.


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## pyrrolin

Thanks for correcting and giving a better explanation of bio load, I didn't do a very good job on that part.

I also learned something, didn't know about the common issue with goldfish and plants. One of the many factors why plants don't do well in my son's goldfish tank. At least I have lots of plants to spare to replace in his tank. There are a large number of factors causing those plants to not do well, its a very tall tank, only a single t8 bulb, only gravel and not enough and the light is always on. Im surprised they last as long as they do.


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## chi

Thanks everyone that reply for my cry. Looks like there are a lot that I have to modify. I guest I need to add one more filter, change filter cartage, change water, clean gravel, separate neon and goldfish, get a test kit. 

But why don't I have the problem when I had a bare bottom tank?


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## pyrrolin

You have only had the tank for a few weeks. I am positive things were going to go like this with bare bottom or not.

Just a quick lesson on bacteria, the ones that keep the tank clean. They are on all surfaces inside the tank, on the filter, on the glass, on any plants, rocks, other ornaments, on the gravel and some in the water itself.

The main bulk of the good bacteria is in the filter, its the slime that is all over the inside of the filter. The filter's main job is to give a good home for the bacteria and to constantly move water from the tank which contains all the fish waste and bringing that waste to the bacteria to eat and make safe for the fish.

There is cleaning a tank and there is cleaning a tank.

The only time we actually clean a tank is if is an old unused tank that we want to have running again.

normally when we say cleaning a tank, its just things like removing excess waste from the gravel with a gravel vacuum during a water change. Or if the filter has a sponge part that is just for grabbing debris from the water, we rinse it out. If the inside glass it dirty, we use a scrapper or scrubby that is only ever used for the aquarium to remove algae. Sometimes after a very long period of time, many months or years, the filter can get gummed up with a thick film of dead bacteria, they live and die and keep growing. In this case you may need to scrape off some of the inside of the filter.

Trick to keeping things in balance, meaning making sure you keep lots of bacteria is to do things in stages. If you were to do a water change, clean the gravel, clean the inside glass and do some cleaning on the filter all on the same day, you would lose too much bacteria and cause problems. You want to space things out. The main thing is the filter, if you have to do cleaning in the filter, make sure you do not touch anything else for a couple days. It is ok to clean glass, gravel and a water change on the same day. water changes does not mean removing all the water and refilling, that would really mess things up. Generally the most water you would want to change in one day is 50 percent and normally that is just for extreme cases. The general rule for water changes is 10 percent a week and you can adjust from there depending on stock, feeding, plants.

If you need to rinse out a filter sponge, it is strongly recommended that you do it in some used tank water. The reason is, this water does not contain chlorine which kills bacteria. Normally when we need to clean a sponge we are also doing a 10 percent water change, use this water you removed to clean the sponge. The sponge is probably not the main holder of good bacteria but it is an important one, so keeping some bacteria alive on it is to your benefit.


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## xriddler

pyrrolin i think he mentioned that his tank has been setup 1 year ago and that it was bare bottom until now. 

Chi you really didnt answer our questions though. Did you rinse the gravel before putting it in the tank? and is the water green or is the glass green? if you can snap a few pictures it would really help us understand it more. Were there always plants in your tank even a year ago? Do you vacuum your gravel since you started putting it in? If you can provide your water parameters too that would help sorta. Thanks and goodluck


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## pyrrolin

Not a new tank but new setup. 

New setup could mean the tank is a year old but was empty for a while and was setup again.

It could just mean they added some gravel and plants, which wouldn't cause problems 99.9999% of the time.

Or it could mean they drained the tank, cleaned everything and set it up again, which would then make it a brand new tank cycling wise.

We need to know what new setup actually means in this case. My guess by the sudden problems is the system is started from scratch again.


I have a possible theory on the new problems. It could just be that the bulbs in the lights are too old, they are only good for about a year max if you want to push it. Bad light could be causing excess algae, green water possibly.

We need more information and clarification to narrow down the problem and cause and solutions.


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## xriddler

sorry pyrrolin i must of been mistaken then.


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## chi

Hi everyone

The tank was clean up and restart recently. I mean clean tank, filter with beach and start over.
Yesterday I have 30% water change and had turned off light for 48 hr. Add another filter. When I check it this morning, the water looks a bit clear than before. Thanks for all the help. you gays are great.


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## TorontoBoy

chi said:


> ...Thanks for all the help. you gays are great.


I can only speak for myself, but I love women. As for the others here, some of the things they write can be a little fishy...

You know where to find us.


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## colio

i am surprised not noticing anyone explicitly mentioning this (that I noticed), but if your water is turning green, it is what is known as an algae bloom. As I understand it (and I' not expert), and algae bloom will often occur during part of the tank cycle. You can google "algae bloom" and get piles of good info. And maybe some bad info to : )

Now, by cycle, we mean the nitrogen cycle, not just how much water is "cycling" through your filter. the fish poop and pee in the water. Their waste contains ammonia, which is bad for the fishies. However, your filter (and tank walls, plants, substrate, etc etc) will grow a colony of good bacteria, who will then convert ammonia to nitrite (still bad for fishies) and nitrite to nitrogen (only bad in large amounts). It takes time for the colony of bacteria to grow, and we call this "cycling" the tank, to set up the proper nitrogen cycle (ammonia > nitrite>nitrate). 

You still need to remove nitrate. The way to do this is partial water changes. Each week, replace some of the tank water (between 10 and 25%, depending on how many fishies you have at the time, and if your nitrates are rising, which is what a test kit is good for). 

I had no idea about this when I got my first tank, and put 4 goldfish in a 10 gallon. They died. The tank was not cycled, and that is WAAAAAAY to many goldfish for a 10. It is good you got a big tank, they are better and easier to deal with. I now have 2 healthy tanks, and happy fishies. 

I hope these answers helped more than confused. I think an algae bloom is expected during this phase of your tank setting up a cycle, and I think the best thing to do it make a few 25% water changes. But google it, and get second opnions. 

Good luck!

EDIT: oh I missed the whole second page of comments which covered much of this anyways! EEK!


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## pyrrolin

Ok, the tank was totally cleaned, this means we treat it as a brand new tank.

There are some ways to speed up the cycling process

Best way is to add some used filter media. With your type of filter, it isn't as simple as some other filters but still works. Might be another member near you who can provide some.

Another way is a bacteria booster. The one I use is Stress Zyme by API, others have brands they may use.

I recommend using one of these methods to speed things up and help keep your fish safe.

A couple days ago I recommended a 25 percent water change. This still stands imo. But we need test results to provide further recommendations past that first water change.

Colio seems to be right about it being an algae bloom. I personally don't know the best way to fix this other than getting the cycle going and some water changes. Hopefully someone else can post that info.

Read the sticky on the nitrogen cycle carefully a few times and feel free to ask any questions you have.

Because you totally cleaned the tank, it is now considered a brand new tank in regards to setting it up and getting it cycled. When you cleaned the tank, you killed any and all good bacteria you may have had. Nothing wrong with starting from scratch, just not the preferred method.


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## TorontoBoy

chi said:


> ...I mean clean tank, filter with beach and start over.
> Yesterday I have 30% water change and had turned off light for 48 hr. Add another filter. When I check it this morning, the water looks a bit clear than before. Thanks for all the help. you gays are great.


Hmmm. I think this means he cleaned the tank but not with bleach, as he did a 30% water change. If he cleaned his tank and bleached it would be impossible to do only a 30% water change. I think.

Cleaning your filter with bleach...I hope you did not do this. Bleach will kill all the bacteria, beneficial or bad, and set your filter back to day 1 of a tank cycle. If not thoroughly washed out with dechlorinated water your fish will suffer. Your old filter is now not cycled. Your new filter will not be cycled.

The water may be cleaner looking due to your water change and a new filter, but ammonia will quickly build up, burn your fish and kill them. There are no beneficial bacteria in your tank to turn the ammonia (most toxic) to nitrites (less toxic than ammonia but still very toxic), and nitrites to nitrates (even less toxic than nitrites, fish can tolerate some). Your only solution is to do frequent water changes, and with a 100G tank that is an onerous task.

Your fish are more at risk now than before you did the bleach cleaning.


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## pyrrolin

it was 3 or 4 weeks ago that they cleaned the tank with bleach and then reset up everything.

We are basically helping them with a brand new setup now that it was all cleaned

Hoping to see some ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings so we can give advice on the next step


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## xriddler

i really like using seachem stability to cycle. you can still do a fishless cycle but if the stability is not tainted you cycle in 7 days basically. add the amount of recommended stability then add ammonia for 7 days. Or since you already have fish and probably alot of ammonia in there because of the waste just start dosing stability in the tank.


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## pyrrolin

yup, seachem stability or API stress zyme would greatly speed things up. I have only used the API one myself so far and now that I have multiple tanks, I rarely need it.


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## Fishfur

Colio, speaking of trying to reduce confusion - you've said ammonia goes to nitrite, then nitrite goes to "NITROGEN".. my emphasis, not yours. But this is incorrect, though I'm sure you meant to say nitrate, unfortunately, that's not what you typed.

The cycle is called the nitrogen cycle, yes, because it deals with various nitrogen containing compounds, but nitrogen is not the end result. Nitrates are. The bacteria that break down the ammonia and nitrite are called nitrifying bacteria.

The only way you get nitrogen as an end result is if you use an anaerobic type of filtration. There are a few, many DIY. One that gets a lot of advertising is the AquariPure [ I think that's the name, don't quote me], which has DENITRIFYING bacteria inside it that do, in fact, convert nitrate to nitrogen gas, which is then released into the air. Such bacteria are able to live only in places that have no oxygen.

Many anaerobic bacteria produce other, quite nasty smelling gases as byproducts. Many contain sulfurous compounds, so they smell like rotten eggs. Swamp gas, iow, which you may get if you have gas pockets in poorly maintained substrates in FW tanks.

Such filters are expensive to buy, but they do work, so far as I know. Salt water tanks with deep sand beds in the refugium work this way. The sand bed keeps the oxygen out, so the denitrifying bacteria can live there and convert the nitrate to nitrogen. Keeps nitrates under control in SW setups.

Pyrrolin, yep, that's one reason why plants don't do well in goldfish tanks. Goldfish, [like a number of cichlids], like to root up plants, and they find many of them quite tasty. They are ominvores who like a lot of veggies. People who keep them in numbers, or in ponds, usually end up providing them with plants they like, which may help keep them from destroying the rest. They like to eat duckweed, I believe, and one they adore is Azolla, another floater. Where ponds are year round, some grow Azolla deliberately as goldfish food. They also like the aptly named goldfish plant, the botanical name of which I forget just now. But any plant not firmly rooted into deep substrate or better yet, a dirt pond bottom, will probably at some point be uprooted as the fish pursue their penchant for digging, even if they don't eat it at all.

Use of quite large heavy pebbles on top of the substrate may assist in keeping some plants in place.. if you don't mind the look of them.


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