# Scared Frontosa



## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

My frontosa lies behind the clay pot all day, and sneaks out once in a while to enjoy the outisde view of its home, only to come back hiding behind the clay pot when someone appears. Anyone else have frontosa and experience this same situation?
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> My frontosa lies behind the clay pot all day, and sneaks out once in a while to enjoy the outisde view of its home, only to come back hiding behind the clay pot when someone appears. Anyone else have frontosa and experience this same situation?


You only have one?

That might be your problem. Other than that, its a pretty shy fish.

If you just have the fish by itself in a tank thats your answer. If you have it in a proper setup with other frontosas proper enviro etc I'd move on to checking your water parameters.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

My water parameters are fine, and yes the frontosa is alone. I'm not too sure if the loneliness is causing the shyness of this fish. Before it was alone, it had another sibling that it literally chased and eventually killed it. Maybe this fish is simply just shy and scared to come out of its pot.
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## Fishfinder (Feb 17, 2008)

iv noticed the same behaviour with my Firemouth who was alone in a 25, then i added some guppies and it has been out alot more! Looks better also.
As said above, it might help to add either some more Fronts if u have the room, if not other fish that are smaller, but not small enough to be eaten.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

Maybe some random fish will help make my frontosa more active. I'm just a little concerned about the situation that occured to my recent frontosa. I don't want another fish to get injured & die.
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> Maybe some random fish will help make my frontosa more active. I'm just a little concerned about the situation that occured to my recent frontosa. I don't want another fish to get injured & die.


You have an aggressive territorial hierarchical 'herding/grouping' rather than schooling cichlid.

Anything less than a 'group' will make a competition situation. Any fish interpreted as a challenger or a threat will be chased away or destroyed.

Small uninteresting fish that do not challenge the big fish for resources are interpreted more as a barometer than anything else. The larger fish will use the activeness and behaviour of the schooling fish to determine whether it is safe for it to come out. Occasionally, one of these may be in the wrong place at the wrong time, say going for the same piece of food, and will be 'told' not to do so... which will likely be hard enough to kill it. Remember that a small characin is to a frontosa what a potato bug is to you. You just squish it and continue about your business.

Also 'Fine' is not a water parameter I'm familiar with. Can you be more specific ? 

pH/kH/gH/NH3/4No2/3/known heavy metals/other compounds/filtration used/waterchange frequency etc etc


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## Westender (Mar 24, 2006)

Hi APB - 

Pablo's quite right about their temperament. If you have the space / cash, I'd suggest adding 5 more. As long as you're happy with the water quality, that is.

You'll need about 5 to spread the aggression around. Is your tank large enough for 6 adults?


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

Pablo-

Here are the water parameters: 
Temp: 78°F
pH: 7.8
KH: 11 
NH3: 0-1 ppm (varies time to time)
NO3: Usually 10-20 ppm
4NO2: Unknown
Filtration: Fluval filration system model 405
Water changes: Every weekend, 20 gallons

Everything is totally fine with the water parameters. I'm thinking its more towards my frontosa's temperament, similar to what Westender mentioned.

Westender-

Definitely I have the space and cash but I want to figure out why the frontosa is so shy. It's gotten to the point where it stays behind it's clay pot literally for hours. Maybe this frontosa prefers to be alone? As for the space, I have a 90 gallon for the single frontosa. It's currently about 4 months old and still haven't been growing too much. Maybe I'll consider getting more frontosas so my frontosa isn't so lonely and shy. I hope this attempt will fix the problem. I'm just afraid that he will chase the less dominant frontosas and tear them apart.
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> Pablo-
> 
> Here are the water parameters:
> Temp: 78°F
> ...


Your Frontosa is doing the fish equivalent of curling into a fetal position and rocking back and forth in a corner. This is not enjoying living alone 

Fish chasing other fish and hurting them just kind of happens with africans. Its another game. It sucks. But it happens. Get more frontosas. Make sure theyre the same kind of Frontosa. People often don't remember that.

Also you will need a bigger tank than 90 gallons one day if you want to keep a group of fronts. If you manage to make the single front happy with dithers by itself the 90 will do permanently. This is unlikely and inferior to the previous option though.

Your pH could be about four points higher btw. This is far from critical though and just the equivalent of having Dr Scholls insoles. Comfy. Not needed.

Now for the really bad part> ANYTHING over zero of NH3 is very very bad. You should never ever have an ammonia spike. You're doing something wrong. The cycle is incomplete, snapping, mini cycling, insufficient bio filtration, insufficient flow, etc etc etc I can't tell you what it is without more info, but you must eliminate this immediately.


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

As Pablo has eluded to, it is shy because you have it alone. You need to have 5-6 of them so that they can spread the aggression and be less skiddish. There will always be fighting over territory and hierarchy but after a while, they will sort out who is the alpha male and everything will calm down.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. Still, I still don't believe that my water parameter has much to do with the aggression and shyness of my frontosa. And of course, if I was to throw in a few more of the same types of frontosas, I'll surely expand my tank as well. Also, providing them with more hiding places and plenty of tank space. Have any of you guys experience, first-handed, a frontosa literrally injuring and killing another frontosa?
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> Thanks for the advice. Still, I still don't believe that my water parameter has much to do with the aggression and shyness of my frontosa. And of course, if I was to throw in a few more of the same types of frontosas, I'll surely expand my tank as well. Also, providing them with more hiding places and plenty of tank space. Have any of you guys experience, first-handed, a frontosa literrally injuring and killing another frontosa?


K I don't think you understand.

Ammonia is a carcinogenic mutagenic toxin that will eventually kill the fish, and will cause severe discomfort and irritation on the way.

Pour some bleach all over yourself. Don't wash it off. Do it again tommorow. That's how your fish feels.

If you can't help this issue- I can't help you.


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Pablo is right, its is analagous to pouring bleach over yourself... the ammonia burns the fish, lungs, etc. and kills it.

Alot of cichlids will kill each other if you are only keep 2 and there is fighting over territory.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian said:


> Pablo is right, its is analagous to pouring bleach over yourself... the ammonia burns the fish, lungs, etc. and kills it.
> 
> Alot of cichlids will kill each other if you are only keep 2 and there is fighting over territory.


If Brian is agreeing with me- it means its really serious 

If you've read the forum history before signing up- we never agree.

Now as far as burning the lungs- since fish have no lungs- I'm not sure that would happen- but it does burn and kill gill tissue.

It seriously is going to kill your fish. Its damaging it.


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Lol, all joking and truth aside... seriously rethink your parameters and add some more fronts.

They'll do fine in the 90gal for a while since they takes a while to reach full size.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian said:


> Lol, all joking and truth aside... seriously rethink your parameters and add some more fronts.
> 
> They'll do fine in the 90gal for a while since they takes a while to reach full size.


But if he puts the truth aside too then he's not going to listen to us at all.


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Maybe he has selective reading  - seems a little like it in regards to the water parameters B)


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## Westender (Mar 24, 2006)

I have seen a Front kill another one - in a similar situation to yours. I've also seen a tiger barb harass and kill another one, and a serpae tetra kill another one... Your Frontosa isn't psychotic - what it was doing with the other fish was establishing pecking order. As Pablo said - they are harem breeders and you end up with a dominant male and a dominant female in any group. When you have a large number of them, the aggression is spread around so no-one has a chance to be too badly damaged. When there is only one other member, the weaker fish gets pecked consistently and can't recover.

As for its cowering - when you feel really crappy, do you go out and run around in the sun, or do you lie in bed and whine and moan? My wife claims I whine and moan, (but she's biased) and if your ammonia is spiking, there's a good chance your Front is feeling crappy and wants somewhere dark and secure. It's probably also trying to figure out where all the other fronts are - if it thinks they're hiding, then it's a good survival trait for it to hide too.


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## Brian (Mar 14, 2006)

Westender said:


> I have seen a Front kill another one - in a similar situation to yours. I've also seen a tiger barb harass and kill another one, and a serpae tetra kill another one... Your Frontosa isn't psychotic - what it was doing with the other fish was establishing pecking order. As Pablo said - they are harem breeders and you end up with a dominant male and a dominant female in any group. When you have a large number of them, the aggression is spread around so no-one has a chance to be too badly damaged. When there is only one other member, the weaker fish gets pecked consistently and can't recover.
> 
> As for its cowering - when you feel really crappy, do you go out and run around in the sun, or do you lie in bed and whine and moan? My wife claims I whine and moan, (but she's biased) and if your ammonia is spiking, there's a good chance your Front is feeling crappy and wants somewhere dark and secure. It's probably also trying to figure out where all the other fronts are - if it thinks they're hiding, then it's a good survival trait for it to hide too.


Perfect. APB_Admin, really take to heart what the members have suggested and nice design for your website btw


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

All your advice & suggestions are kept and I understand the effects ammonia can do to my fish. Usually my NH3 is constant around .2 ppm and sometimes spikes up to 1ppm. How great of a discomfort are we looking at? I've seen tanks that has over 1-2 ppm of NH3 and the appearance of discomfort and irritation. The fish looks abosolutely fine with little aggression here & there but NEVER killing one another.

Brian-

Thanks for the comment on our website. We actually are a very new website that was just founded about a year ago, but never went live until recently. We gladly encourage people to use our free services for buying & selling pets.
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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

If I have not yet mentioned, my NH3 levels are below 1 PPM. 0-1 PPM (usually around .2 ppm). I edited my posts, and accidently put down the wrong amount. Mixed it up with my NO3.

These are actually my real water parameters:

Temp: 78°F
pH: 7.8
KH: 11 
NH3: 0-1 ppm (varies time to time usually .2ppm)
NO3: Usually 10-20 ppm
4NO2: Unknown
Filtration: Fluval filration system model 405
Water changes: Every weekend, 20 gallons

I can see why Pablo was ranting so much now. Sorry for the confusion folks.
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> If I have not yet mentioned, my NH3 levels are below 1 PPM. 0-1 PPM (usually around .2 ppm). I edited my posts, and accidently put down the wront amount.
> 
> These are actually my real water parameters:
> 
> ...












Adding another filter to supplement your underpowered Fluval will eliminate said .2ppm.

Glad we cleared this up. Go buy more frontosas.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes, NH3 and NO3 can be easily mixed up. Thanks for your inputs, even though they were ranting in some way 
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> Yes, NH3 and NO3 can be easily mixed up. Thanks for your inputs, even though they were ranting in some way


No they weren't. We arrived at a conclusion. All your problems are solved. You know what you have to go do now to correct the situation and have a happy fish.

Sounds like problem solved. If ranting was involved, who cares? problem still soved.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

Pablo-

What kind of fish do you own and what is your current tank fixture?
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> Pablo-
> 
> What kind of fish do you own and what is your current tank fixture?


I have NTS.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

So you've never had first hand experience with a fish and tanks? This is unbelievable.
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> So you've never had first hand experience with a fish and tanks? This is unbelievable.


No I've had tonnes. I just don't have any right now.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm thinking about going to reef aquariums pretty soon.
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> I'm thinking about going to reef aquariums pretty soon.


You sound like you have about three years to go to do it properly. Don't get in over your head (get it? Because its water?)

Dead coral and a dead bank account make bad bed fellowes.

You can replace a $30 fish a lot more easily than $2500 of corals.

Also, most people who want SW very quickly change their minds once they price out what they would consider a nice tank.

its really disgusting. You could buy a decent small car for what a 45 gallon reef tank, properly done, will cost. I personally know of a 125 Gallon reef tank which is now over THIRTY THOUSAND dollars.

Now, if you want to get really really good with cichlids, then move up to FOWLR ( say, pair of clownfish, rocks, and saltwater) this is affordable and easy and you could probably pull it off in a few months.


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## APB_admin (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes, my brother owns a 90 gallon reef tank and he's spending more than $10,000 easily. Corals are the main cost. Yes, I'm thinking about starting small and slowly increasing into a bigger tank when I have more experience.
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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

APB_admin said:


> Yes, my brother owns a 90 gallon reef tank and he's spending more than $10,000 easily. Corals are the main cost. Yes, I'm thinking about starting small and slowly increasing into a bigger thank when I have more experience.





















Does his fishtank get Cinemax? 

I'd rather buy a really nice bike myself...

You'll never pick up any girls with a reef tank.

Might actually un-pick a few once they find out what you spent on it.

This actually happens. Dont ask me how I know.

Honestly though-- if you have $10 000 to spend on a song, as they say... And you've never ridden a motorcycle- ride a motorcycle first. Summer's coming.
I thought it was pretty lame until I got into it. Even a little put put 80Km/H scooter is more fun than a reef tank 









You can even get a scooter that looks like spiderman


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## Westender (Mar 24, 2006)

Of course, a reef tank is safe to use year-round in Toronto and there's no chance of getting a speeding ticket.

That being said, if I bought either of those things I'd be single again in about 10 seconds.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Westender said:


> Of course, a reef tank is safe to use year-round in Toronto and there's no chance of getting a speeding ticket.
> 
> That being said, if I bought either of those things I'd be single again in about 10 seconds.


You know you want to though


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