# CO2 supplementation.



## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm in the process of setting up my first planted (dirt) tank, and just exploring DIY CO2 supplementation. Would love to find out if the yeast/sugar method is more cost effective, or the paintball cartridge (over a period of say 1 year). Also, with the sugar/yeast method, do you dose continuously i.e. at night too? Does that cause PH spikes/sinks? How do you get around that? Would love to find out about your firsthand experiences. 

Most of the articles I found online, were of the tone that the author's methods were 'the best' and seemed (atleast to me) somewhat close minded. I would rather learn from the experiences of the members here.

I apologize if this makes you go "ahhh, another newbie asking the same questions all over again!" 

Thank you in advance...

Al

PS:
The tank I'm setting up, is 33 Gallons, with miracle grow dirt capped with gravel. I'm thinking of dry starting the tank. Planting and setting it where it can obtain sunlight, and then once the roots have taken, to move and submerge. From what I understand (from reading online), the transition between dry start and submerged is where most plants melt, and that CO2 supplementation can prevent this. Hence my interest/query about CO2.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

If you say for one year, i think sugar/yeast setup is cost effective because you can buy 4kg sugar for $5 at costco and yeast for few bucks (yeast will last for years). 2 cups for sugar should last for 2-3 weeks or more. Downside is that you cannot maintain constant CO2 level because after a week or two amount of CO2 produced will go down (personal experience). I run the tube from the bottle to the tank and so far i haven't had any major issues.

I never bothered to measure ph or anything else.


Are you planning to add clay to your tank?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Have a look at my article regarding pressurized CO2. It may perk your interest in another possibility over DIY yeast CO2.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

GAT said:


> Are you planning to add clay to your tank?


Yes, I had a member here offer to share the red clay they previously bought for their tanks. If that doesn't come through, then a trip to michaels. Only thing is, I think michaels sells them in 10lb boxes...

For DIY CO2, do you basically just run it 24 hrs/day? or do you pull out the diffuser/line at night?



Darkblade48 said:


> Have a look at my article regarding pressurized CO2. It may perk your interest in another possibility over DIY yeast CO2.


I will definitely check it out.

Thank you both for the quick response, as well as for sharing your wealth of knowledge.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

Mlevi said:


> For DIY CO2, do you basically just run it 24 hrs/day? or do you pull out the diffuser/line at night?


When I used to run DIY CO2, I would just run it 24 hours a day.

I started out with pulling out the diffuser at night, but it became a hassle (and also, the DIY CO2 takes quite a long time to establish the required pressure, especially if you are using a diffuser).


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

I don't have any diffuser but i have the tube coming below the filter intake so most of the bubbles go into the filter.

I have mine running 24hrs.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Great! so that definitely sets my mind at rest about running it 24hrs. Thanks guys!

Anthony, I read your pressurized CO2 Thread. WOW! what details! I know one thing for sure...as soon as i have a wee bit o' experience with plants (if i don't kill them all), your article will definitely go a long way towards allowing me to setup a pressurized CO2 system.


This is the beauty of this hobby...I'm learning so much, and gaining the benefits of everyone's experience.

Thank you both once again.

Al.


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## binhle (Sep 19, 2011)

Can you recommend the yeast (brand name) that lasted 2-3 weeks? The one I'm using only give me a week, sometime less. Thx


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

binhle said:


> Can you recommend the yeast (brand name) that lasted 2-3 weeks? The one I'm using only give me a week, sometime less. Thx


I use whatever is available at the grocery store (I think the one I used to use was Fleischmann's yeast)


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

I bought mine at no frills but i'll give you the name when i get home. maybe you are adding lot of yest? after week and a half i get about one bubble every 2 secs.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Yeast is kind of interesting stuff, considering what a simple life form it is. Two of some of the best things in life would not exist without it ! But it is a life form, and needs to be given a modest amount of care to get the best results from it. I read a fascinating, [ to me anyway] article awhile back, by an aquarist who did his own testing on various yeasts to see which ones worked best for this particular purpose. Perhaps not so surprisingly, the ones that gave the most bang also cost the most bucks. Champagne, wine and beer yeasts, all special cultivars of a few yeast strains, did the best. But not as easy to get, cost a lot more, and available, so far as I know, fresh only, meaning a shelf life of only days or a couple of weeks.

So that leaves baking yeast as the only kind you will find in a grocery store. All the same organism, but available in different formats and packaging. It can be had fresh, in little wrapped cubes, but fresh lasts only a week or two and absolutely must be kept cold and air tight. So called 'active' dry yeast is most common. The newest version is called fast rising yeast, I think Quick Rise is Fleischmans name for theirs. These have a smaller particle size, and grow faster once wet than the regular version of yeast, making your bread rise more quickly. I doubt it makes any real difference over the life of a yeast bottle though. Bread machine yeast is not materially different, but it sometimes will cost more. Not worth a higher price. Btw, if you are using salt in your bottles, watch the amount. Too much salt can kill yeast and in any amount tends to slow it's action.. where it's used it's meant to slow down the production so it will last a big longer and be a bit more even, I believe. Salt is used in bread for the same reasons.

So you can get yeast in those little envelopes, they are the most costly. Also in jars, a bit less costly. Or in vacuum sealed bulk 'paks' for bakers, the cheapest by far. I get them at Bulk Barn. But, no matter what kind it is, while it does have a long shelf life, yeast does NOT keep forever and deteriorates much faster with poor storage. It lasts longest and remains freshest if kept quite cool and bone dry. All of it comes with a Best By date. Old yeast is weaker, with a higher proportion of dead cells. If the package yours came in is nearing its Best By date, or if it was poorly stored along the way, it may be weak, with fewer live cells to reproduce and make C02.

Prolonged storage at higher heat levels will weaken or outright kill dry yeast much sooner than the Best By date suggests. Think how hot a cupboard can get if it's over the stove or fridge, even if you have the AC on for the summer or live in a hell hole hot apartment like I do . That's why your spices should never be over the fridge or stove either, the heat shortens their life and steals their flavours.

All yeast should be kept as cool as possible, but not frozen. I keep mine in the fridge. Once opened, it really should be stored in the fridge. Use AIR TIGHT packaging, with as much air excluded as possible. If you have a vacuum packager, that's ideal. If not, a couple of freezer weight Ziplocks with the air pressed out as much as possible., one inside the other, inside a sealed plastic box of some kind. I divide bulk yeast into a number of bags so only one gets opened at a time, leaving the rest untouched 'til needed. The box serves mainly to minimize any possible condensation when the door is opened, or leaks from something else in the fridge. Only keep out enough to use up in a month or two and keep that in the fridge in a tightly zipped freezer bag as well. 
Before you purchase yeast, check the Best By date and make sure it has a minimum of one year to go, two years or longer if you buy the largest packages. Those little envelopes are often stored badly during shipping and sale. They are not always full strength, even if they are reasonably new. And jars, once opened, let air and moisture get in every time you remove the lid.

Being a newbie to using DIY yeast C02 myself, I can't really speak for methodology, but I've been baking most of my life and learned from that both how to store yeast and what happens if you don't store it properly or when it gets old.

Btw, because there's no way to really know how old it is or how it was stored, I never buy bulk yeast from a bin.. only in vac paks.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Fishfur, This is quite interesting. I hadn't even given the individual components much thought. It's quite eye opening. Thank you so much for sharing!


Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Glad you found it interesting. Sometimes I get carried away with the details.. I like details, but not everyone does. Another thing I forgot to mention.. the way you mix yeast has an real effect on its vigour too. You are rehydrating the cell walls and there's a best way to do that. Instructions to stir the yeast into a cup of water, with a bit of sugar is fairly standard, but most stop there. But rather than just leave it as rather lumpy foam, use a fork or something like and stir it really well, until it has all dissolved and has an even texture and colour, with no lumps. This way you maximize the amount of active yeast you have working for you. This tidbit of technique was in the article I read, and there's a link to that article in Darkblade's guide to DIY C02.. though in fact this is how my aunt taught me to mix yeast for bread long before the rapid rise stuff existed. Regular yeast had to be mixed with water & sugar and stirred, then be left to sit and bubble for ten minutes before it was used. If it didn't bubble well, you didn't use it. It's called 'proofing' by bakers. Only after proofing was it added to the flour/salt & whatever else in the bread recipe along with the liquid needed to make dough. Salt was always mixed well into the flour first,to avoid shocking yeast with salt contact. But the rapid rise yeasts are typically mixed directly into the flour/salt/whatever else of the recipe, with a bit of sugar and then the liquid is added. No proofing. Not such a good idea for yeast bottles, but it works for bread, if the yeast is still alive. If, however, the yeast is weak or dead, you have wasted your other ingredients. I always proof it first no matter if it's fast rise or not, and adjust recipes to allow for the extra water. That way, I always know the yeast is alive and working before I add anything else. Same process for a yeast bottle, as there is no point in wasting sugar either. In C02 production, in the end it's the alcohol produced that kills the yeast. That's why the brewing/vintner's yeasts work better.. they have a higher tolerance for alcohol.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Great! This will definitely save me a lot of aggravation 

As for the details, I need those for my singe digit IQ 
The more the details, the less I have to make assumptions, and the less chances of me screwing up majorly.


Thank you for sharing your experience, and for continuing to do so.


Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

It's so nice to be appreciated ! Thanks


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

binhle said:


> Can you recommend the yeast (brand name) that lasted 2-3 weeks? The one I'm using only give me a week, sometime less. Thx


the one i have is called British class, i got it from nofrills.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

British Class is an old fashioned regular yeast.. not the newer fast rise sort, but it works just as well. But because the dormant cells are in larger globules, it takes longer to rehydrate them properly and dissolve the starch they are mixed with, so make sure you stir the amount you need into a cup of lukewarm water, about 110 F, with a pinch of sugar, and stir thoroughly, until it's even textured with no lumps and getting foamy/bubbly. Only then mix it into your bottle. It will take a few minutes of stirring, but it will make the most of what the yeast has to offer. If memory serves, this brand comes in a jar.. keep it in the fridge, and keep the lid tightly closed between uses if you don't want to put in into a ziplock bag instead.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Extra note.. Temperature of water is important with yeast too. 140F will kill it instantly. Below 40 F it won't grow at all. Ideal temp to rehydrate dry yeast is about 110 F, and an ideal temp for it to grow is around 80 F. It will grow so long as it's at least 50 F. but more slowly the cooler it is. So theoretically, if you kept your yeast bottle cooler, it might last longer, but produce less C02 per day.. conversely, if it's kept warmer, it may produce more C02, but won't last as long before the alcohol levels get high enough to kill the yeast off.

I also learned what the difference is between regular and fast rise yeast. Those little bits in the yeast packet are not single cells. They are large numbers stuck together with either dextrose, a sugar, or with starch. Regular yeast has larger globs, and part of the rehydrating process is dissolving the starch or sugar that holds them together, and then allowing the cell walls of the yeast itself to absorb water.
Fast rise yeast is formulated in a way that makes the globs very porous, so they are able to absorb water faster and rehydrate their cell walls more quickly. They have less starch or sugar holding them together, and grow faster because they rehydrate more efficiently. So when used in baking, they can become wet enough mixed with flour and water to work, where the old fashioned sort would never get wet enough unless proofed first. Proofing is the mixing/stirring with water and sugar until smooth and even textured and bubbling. I'd still proof fast rise yeast for a yeast bottle, simply because mixing it straight into a large volume of water isn't the way it was meant to be used.

If you keep your yeast in the fridge, remove it while you are getting ready to do the new bottle so it has time to come to room temperature before you mix it with the lukewarm water. It will work faster that if you mix it straight from the cold fridge temp.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

I do make sure the yeast are completely dissolved but i never thought about adding bit of sugar while mixing. So far, I've been keeping the yest bottle at room temperature so I don't know if its too late to move them to the fridge.

Do you have any brand name that you want to recommend?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, yeast needs to eat something, and sugar is the usual. In fact, molasses is even better in terms of actually feeding yeast, but costs quite a bit more. Not important for C02 bottles. 

Brand names are not terribly important, because the organism inside the package is the same for all of them. More important is that whichever brand it is, it's fresh and was stored well. So buy from a store that has high turnover, so the stuff is coming in regularly, which will help in terms of it being fresh. No way to know about how it was stored until you buy it, could have been in a frying hot delivery truck for days. But I think storage issues are one logical explanation for some of the variations in performance between one package of yeast and another package, even of the same brand. Most stores tend to carry only one brand anyway. Whatever you get, once you have it, put it in the fridge. Try to buy it with the longest Best By date possible. Not too late to put yours in the fridge.. whatever life it has left will be prolonged by cooler temperatures and dryness.


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