# Quarantined saltwater fish in the gta



## kolbaso (Mar 24, 2010)

Are there any retailers in the GTA that quarantine the fish long enough to eliminate marine ich with either hypo salinity or some sort of medication treatment?


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## caker_chris (Apr 22, 2010)

From what the guys at big als tell me, they don't sell there new arrivals for 1 week after they arrive. I am not sure if that is true or not. However when there is no pricing or list of fish on the tank they will not sell them to you and they say its because they are in quarentine.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

I'll just put it this way, proper QT procedure is literally treating them for a minimum of 4 weeks.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

BA does do a good job of making sure things are somewhat stable before selling them (well at the Scarborough store anyways) - it's one of the few things they do well, IMO.

I think Menagerie might keep stock downstairs for a while till they're feeding and healthy, but not sure if you'll completely avoid MI either way - I'd be safe and just QT yourself, it's really not that hard!


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## kolbaso (Mar 24, 2010)

Yeah i have a QT tank now after i got a fish that infected my tank. The remaining lil guys are waiting in a hyposalinity tank while the main tank remains fishless for about 8 weeks until the ich has ran through its lifecycle. I was just hoping that there was a store that treated with copper, or hyposalinity so once I got them home they wouldnt need soo much time in my QT tank.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

In my opinion, no retailers in the GTA quarantine their their livestock properly.

In their defense, it really isn't practical to do so. Four weeks QT? Not gonna happen in the retail environment.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Chris S said:


> In my opinion, no retailers in the GTA quarantine their their livestock properly.
> 
> In their defense, it really isn't practical to do so. Four weeks QT? Not gonna happen in the retail environment.


Would a fish store hold the fish for the four weeks QT needed?

Lets say I wanted a Rusty Angel and I asked the store owner or manager that I will pay X% and the rest on pickup in four weeks.

Anyone done this?


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

the whole qt think makes no sense to me.. so you have a fish live alone and it feels safe and it doesnt not develop ich.. then you throw it in you tank and it gets beat up for being the new guy and then it develops ich anyways..


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

cablemike said:


> the whole qt think makes no sense to me.. so you have a fish live alone and it feels safe and it doesnt not develop ich.. then you throw it in you tank and it gets beat up for being the new guy and then it develops ich anyways..


I wonder how many hobbyist QT


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

cablemike said:


> the whole qt think makes no sense to me.. so you have a fish live alone and it feels safe and it doesnt not develop ich.. then you throw it in you tank and it gets beat up for being the new guy and then it develops ich anyways..


Ich free tank will never get Ich if all are Ich free. The stress alone won't cause the fish to have ich.

The sad truth is that almost every tank in GTA retailer's tank is infested with Ich. It's pretty much guaranteed that if you do not QT your fishes from retailers properly, they will get ich.

QTing for ich means minimum 4 weeks without introducing new fish that may have an ich. If within the 4 weeks the fish shows symptoms of ich, you'll have to treat it, meaning another 4 weeks to complete QTing.

I find this one of the more difficult part of keeping salt water tank. I'm willing to pay double the typical retail price for a fish if QT'd properly and guaranteed ich free.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

QT isn't just for ich, and it's not just for disease. There are a multitude of other diseases and parasites that should be treated for in QT - flukes, internal parasites, as well as any injuries sustained in collection or shipping. Also, if a fish brings a disease like velvet into your system, expect to lose most of your fish - in a closed, small box, if someone gets the pox, no matter how healthy you are, you're likely to get it too.

Also, it allows a fish to become accustomed to life in captivity - the traffic going by it all the time, the new sources and kinds of foods, the new lighting schedule, new conditions. 

As far as I'm concerned, I've invested too much time (and money) to take the risk of wiping every fish in my tank out. 


I qt now - my last addition from a store got qt'd for 8+ weeks, and is super healthy as a result. It learned the light schedule, adapted to traffic (used to be super timid), learned to eat frozen and prepared foods (initially only picked at rock like many dwarf angels). I also treated for flukes at one point - which would have been next to impossible in my reef tank, as I had to catch the little fish.

IMO, you need to qt, unless you're prepared for the concequences.


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

dont want ich, get a uv sterelizer.. simple as that.. i have had only 1 fish ever get it in my sw tanks and that was my blue tang.. truth is most blue tangs get it.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

If it were as simple as that, then no one would get MI.


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

sorry, i just have strong feelings on the subject.. ive seen people go spend money on a qt and after a few weeks add the fish to the dt and ich breakout. my feelings on this are simple, you cant control nature and if a newly added fish is stressed it will be at high risk for ich and no matter what you do to prevent it you cant combat natures way. and uv sterelizers help rid ich from the water column.. you dont have to run them 24_7 but when something new is added it is the best way to actually destroy the ich so it doesnt spread. if you know how to tell if a fish is healthy then you should be able to pick a least likely canditate to bring illness to you tank.. my blue tang was a fry when i got it.. it didnt get ich until about 6 months after i added it and no new fish were added so how did it get ich, because its always there waiting for the fish to get stressed and it attacks.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

cablemike said:


> sorry, i just have strong feelings on the subject.. ive seen people go spend money on a qt and after a few weeks add the fish to the dt and ich breakout. my feelings on this are simple, you cant control nature and if a newly added fish is stressed it will be at high risk for ich and no matter what you do to prevent it you cant combat natures way. and uv sterelizers help rid ich from the water column.. you dont have to run them 24_7 but when something new is added it is the best way to actually destroy the ich so it doesnt spread. if you know how to tell if a fish is healthy then you should be able to pick a least likely canditate to bring illness to you tank.. my blue tang was a fry when i got it.. it didnt get ich until about 6 months after i added it and no new fish were added so how did it get ich, because its always there waiting for the fish to get stressed and it attacks.


UV sterilizer does not eliminate ich. It does help while it's ON, but does NOT eliminate. I personally don't like UV sterilizer as it kills off other beneficial stuff too. As Ameek said, Ich is not the only issue you want to treat in QT.

I have a strong opinions about QT. It's a typical mistake new reefers make. I did too. QT is a lot of work, and expensive (more on time than money).

Not only fish, you want to QT all corals too. I find this even more difficult, but if you ask Ameek, and the series of issues he had with parasites on corals, he's not taking any chances now.


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## kolbaso (Mar 24, 2010)

I agree with people that do quarantine that it probably is necessary. 
Now for the QT process what does everybody do exactly? Right now I am in week 2 of my first batch of QT fish. A test run if you will with a hardy clown and damsel. They had one week with normal salinity and now they are in hyposelinity for 4 weeks to kill the MI. I didn’t see and signs but MI killed my last 3 fish so I’m being cautious. I am also using medicated antiparasitic food to try and ward off any other infections the fish might have. 
Is there anything else I should be doing or will this be enough? After the hyposelinity they will get another week of normal water conditions before a transfer into my display that will have been fishless for 8 weeks to get rid of the MI outbreak.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

That sounds good enough to me. 8 weeks completely fishless should be sufficient to treat your display tank, and 4 weeks in hyposalinity for your fishes should get rid of MI.


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

you might get a mini cycle as the tank has been fishless and your about to add a shock to the system with the waste the fish will create.. keep an eye on your levels and you may have to do a few small water changes if ammo, nitrite start to show.


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

After months of having no problems, today i noticed that one of my pricey captive bred banggai's has what looks like both a gram negative bacterial infection as well as Saprolegnia Fungus. How did it get there? probably from one of the other fish i've put in, without QT, of course! And now i have to figure out a) how to get the fish out, and b) where to get the stuff to treat it. if anyone has any copper free suggestions, please let me know... luckily everyone else looks great.
i've been religious about water changes, water parameters are all good, and nothing except a shrimp has died in the tank (but i've had one jumper)... so, from now on, i will likely be doing qt... and fingers crossed i'm not going to pay the price for my wrongdoings!


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## explor3r (Mar 14, 2010)

Ill have my finger cross for u Marg plus that teach me a lesson of qt my fish which i never do, so far been lucky..


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

explor3r said:


> Ill have my finger cross for u Marg plus that teach me a lesson of qt my fish which i never do, so far been lucky..


I hope your luck doesn't run out 
Mine has


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

get a cleaner shrimp..


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## teemee (Aug 29, 2009)

cablemike said:


> get a cleaner shrimp..


is that for me? 
i have some cleaner shrimp - at least i did - but never actually see them, so its hard to say!
i guess i could get some more...!


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Cleaner shrimp and wrasse are much debated topic but they are considered myth. You can give it a try but don't count on it!


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

teemee said:


> is that for me?
> 
> i have some cleaner shrimp - at least i did - but never actually see them, so its hard to say!
> 
> i guess i could get some more...!


cleaner wrasse work even better but after they clea the fish they tend to starve to death and die. but if you have and outbreak its the quickest way to fix the problem without chemica


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

They alone won't cure ich. If they can remove anything, it's just the cysts attached to the fish - they can't get at the ich at any other point in their life cycle.


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> They alone won't cure ich. If they can remove anything, it's just the cysts attached to the fish - they can't get at the ich at any other point in their life cycle.


dude, are you serious? i guess you havent seen the countless documentaries showing the cleaning stations where fish of all sizes come to get cleaned.. i have owned both the shrimp and wrasse and they both clean activly.. you cant even put your arm in without them cleaning it. just dont get captive bred as they loose some of their cleaning instinct and just scavange. and dont get one if you have a boxer shrimp as it will kill the cleaner like mine did. wrasse are non stop cleaners and can actually stress some fish by constantly following them around to clean them, but as i said they usually die as all they eat is parasites. but from what ive read they tend to have short life spans in the wild als


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Really?

Cleaner shrimp won't keep an Ich outbreak in check. Yes, they do set up cleaning stations, yes they do clean fish, but no they aren't going to keep a full outbreak from going on.

And captive bred cleaner shrimp?


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

I have a pair of cleaner shrimps and they have setup a cleaning station, and while the cleaning action was fascinating to watch, they simply cannot control the ich outbreak.

The MI that causes fish death are all in gills, and the cleaner shrimp cannot fix that at all. 

The same story is true with cleaner wrasse, and the parasites are not the only source of food. They will easily starve to death in wild too, if that's true. I've heard from people who kept these guys for over 8 years, in a parasite free tank.


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## cablemike (Jan 7, 2009)

if your read what i said you would have understood that for an outbreak you want a wrasse as all they do all day is clean because thats there only food source. and yes big als had a shipment of tiny tank raised cleaners and they didnt clean my fish, infact they ran from the fish. big als on kennedy has had captive raised shipments a few times. see i dont trust science, i trust that for every problem God has created a solution. I avoid chemicals at all cost.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

The cleaner wrasse will spend days around other fishes, and it will not cure marine ich. It may pick off the parasites from fish's skin (cyst), but won't clean parasites in gills, or in free swimming stages, or in substrates, all in different stages of life cycle. 

God created creatures, and the cleaner shrimps are born with insticts of cleaning. Whether captive bred or wild caught, they will eventually set up a cleaning station.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Obivously you got me wrong, when I had an Ich outbreak, if you followed my thread, I tried everything what others suggested, including cleaner wrasse and shrimps I had. There were no use, so I do not want others repeat the same. I don't know what you've been reading, but sources I've read confirm my findings.

Of course, I wish I had known better before myself had an ich outbreak, but it was too late, and things got frustrating because I got *wrong* info.

Most people exit this hobby, when they encounter one of these parasite outbreak and lose all fishes, etc. That's why I'm willing to speak up about this.

Here's a short reading about MI and possible cure. All method of cure requires QT, and two of them DO NOT require any chemicals.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php


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## vaporize (Apr 10, 2006)

cablemike said:


> seams every time i say something the two of you team up against me.. ive been at this longer then both of you combined.. i have a stack of book 5ft tall, countless videos, and i spend like 6 hours a day reading. obviously you have a problem with me. so i say fu** you and im out of here.. im done with this site.. if anyone is looking for me ill be on reef central.


As an honest by-stander, I don't think they are gang up on you, they are simply sharing knowledge with you and putting money into your pocket. Lessons that a lot of us have to use money and lives to pay for.

You want to go to reef central go ahead, there are many experienced people there but there are also tons of newbies giving out pretty dumb advices. At least people here are spending THEIR time to educate and discuss things with you, at that other cdn site, people with such attitude will simply be banned.

For anybody that is seriously into learning about marine fish disease, Leebca from the reefland.com forum is really experienced and provide very good guidance in his writings. I would not skip it for the basics. Of course, WTAC is really good too but not everybody can grab a share of wilson's time LOL


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

LOL...thx Vap but my knowledge is no good unless I post 

Cable, your contributions, as with many others here, is invaluble here. Having read the posts, I don't think it's anyones' intention to gang up on you.

I have to agree with Cable that cleaner wrasses and shrimp DO help in controlling MI, *provided *that they are inthe aquarium system *prior* to issues arising. Furthermore, if the system owner "overfeeds", they will be "useless" in the cleaning of fish of external parasites as they would normally do in the wild, as food that falls in the water is easier and tastier to eat .

As for cleaners getting into the gills to extract MI, again, it's that they aren't "hungry enough" to be thurough in "cleaning".

To take a page from us humans, we can hunt and prepare the food we need to survive, but it's FAR easier to head down to the grocery store/restaurant 

JM2C


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Wilson, I don't think we are in disagreement that clearner wrasse and shrimps *HELPs* in controlling MI. It is simply not a recommended method to cure the MI problem. You have stated that *if* the cleaner wrasse was in the system prior to the problem arising, which means you'd need a cleaner wrasse that is able to survive /w prepared food, but when starved will go after the parasites?

Are you suggesting to those who have problem with MI to go the routes of cleaner wrasse method? If so, I will disagree with your suggestion.

I have read enough about MI and came to my own conclusion that I'd trust method that have been tried and proven to work, through QT. All other methods (in tank chemical method, wrasse, shrimp, garlic) are not a guaranteed method of cure.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Conix, we're on the same page as the cleaner wrasses (CW) and shrimp (CS) have to be in place prior to issues and the tried and true proper QT methods. Getting CS/CW to remedy MI, most times, is a waste of money.

As for cleaner wrasses (CW), generally and historically speaking, have a poor survival rate in captive systems. IME, I've had great success with CWs from Ken @SUM where at least the client feeds a variety of frozen and prepared foods. The client has had them for almost 3yrs on two different systems.

It's not about starving them to get them to "do their job", but controlling feeding portions so that they do not become complacent in what they "do naturally". If they are in place and issues arise and caught early, cutting back/strategic feeding so that the CS/CW so not get a significant amount w/o depriving the fish will only tip the odds in one's favor.

As mentioned but rarely done, QT prior to introducing into the main system.


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## conix67 (Jul 27, 2008)

Mike, you do what you like and works for you. I can only suggest things based on what I know and what I have gained through my own experience.

I have a tremendous respect for your dedication to this hobby. No doubt about that. Not just because you have 8 years of experience, my colleague has had a reef tank longer than that, but his don't look anywhere near as good as yours, and he's still doing things based on old method, and relies on a lot of myths that don't work.

I don't think anyone disagrees with anything you say in general. The only thing that has caused some debate lately is QT. I had to give my opinions which is different from yours because my experience tells me that it won't work. If I were just starting out this hobby, I would have taken your advice as is, and probably have gone through a lot of frustration, because that's exactly what I did and *DID NOT WORK*. You probably know how frustrated one could be, when you run into those issues.

I was hinting in my journal thread that I was about to give up, and I really were considering, just like many others have.

That is exactly why I'm very vocal about this issue, since many, if not most, will face the same issue. A correct understanding of what's what is important. If you want a scientifically proven method, QT is the only way.. and it makes a lot of sense, and you probably know it too.

I never pushed anyone to have a sump. Again it was a suggestion. I moved from a sumpless nano to my current 75G /w sump, so I know what it's like. No one will deny the convenience of having a sump, which can double as refugium by adding a section, hiding all ugly equipment down there, like heaters and skimmer. If you're going to add a decent skimmer, it's very difficult to build a system without a sump. I don't consider having a sump necessarily high tech.


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