# Fluval Shrimp substrate experiment.



## bettaforu

I just picked up some of this new substrate to try it out. I have it cycling in a 5 gallon right now with HOB and sponge filter and a piece of driftwood and stone in the tank. I rinsed it without stirring it up until it ran clear, and it has not produced any cloudiness in my tank, the water is nice and clear.

I have checked the PH and mine is 7.6 right now....so in a few days I will recheck again to see if there is any difference, and will continue to check it over the next 2 weeks. Hopefully it will drop to below 7, if not I will go with the Akadamia next.


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## bettaforu

*testing the new Fluval Shrimp soil for PH levels*

OK my experiment with the New Fluval Shrimp soil. My PH regularly is 7.6 out of the tap. 
Day 1 after 24 hours the water tested at PH 7.2
Day 2 after 48 hours the water is now testing at PH 6.8

My water has not been this low for a long time, so it does look like this particular soil is suitable for crystal shrimps! 

I will continue with my testing for the next 5 days to see what changes occur, and keep you all posted.


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## igor.kanshyn

That's cool, Anna. Thank you. I've got this substrate as well, but haven't set up a tank for yet.

Do you use 2 kg package for your 5 gallon tank?


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## bettaforu

Hi Igor, no I only used about half of the 4KG bag. I bought the bigger one, because I thought I might use it for my 20 gallon long, but it needs a new seal so I tried it on my 5 gallon instead. 

Used about half the bag...so 2 kg would do a 5 gallon no problem.


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## igor.kanshyn

I've made a tank with this new substrate as well.

I have been rinsing the substrate for a long time, but it still made a water grey. 
It does have granules and it looks like small pieces or soil 

I put it in a tank, carefully added water, but water is really gray there.

I will wait till tomorrow and then will decide whether I can add a filter into the tank. I don't want all that 'dirt' inside the filter.


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## camboy012406

igor.kanshyn said:


> I've made a tank with this new substrate as well.
> 
> I have been rinsing the substrate for a long time, but it still made a water grey.
> It does have granules and it looks like small pieces or soil
> 
> I put it in a tank, carefully added water, but water is really gray there.
> 
> I will wait till tomorrow and then will decide whether I can add a filter into the tank. I don't want all that 'dirt' inside the filter.


igor, you can wash the filter with water


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## camboy012406

so it means 4kg only for 10 gallons?


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## igor.kanshyn

camboy012406 said:


> so it means 4kg only for 10 gallons?


I used only 2kg for my 10 gallon.
But I put some rocks into the tank to make it look like I have more substrate


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## bettaforu

OK tested water again in Fluval substrate tank, here is results.

Someone on another forum asked about whether this had any effect on my GH and KH, so I tested the tap water first.

Tap water is PH 7.6 and KH 8 and GH 6

Fluval tank with substrate is now testing PH 6.6 and KH 2 and GH 4 according to my test papers this means I have low PH and perfect acidic conditions! so the substrate works.

PS... I used both a sponge filter and a hang on the back filter, which probably helped clear the water, as the cotton wool soaks up any dust or dirt particles. 

DO NOT rinse with hands or stir this substrate as it will cause your water to become very cloudy and grey!

Rinse under water using a regular strainer and just let the water continually rinse off the darker colored water until it runs clear, don't touch it or stir it up...that is the key to keeping your water from turning grey!


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## jon021

Does the fluval stratum need to be cycled like ada first? I'm looking to swap out my eco complete with it.


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## bettaforu

You should cycle all tanks anyway, but I fast cycle mine by using dirty floss from my other tanks, the floss contains the bacteria needed to cycle the tank. 

I have already put my shrimps in this tank along with a cray and all are doing just fine. 

I always quick cycle my tanks, I use some guppies for a few days, before putting the shrimps in. I have never had any problems doing it this way, no crashes or big ammonia spikes!


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## ShrimpieLove

with this kind of substrate, how long does the PH stay low like that? does it 'wear off' after time and raise back up, or is it permanent? 
Ive never used any kind of substrates like this before so Im just curious...


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## camboy012406

they say it will last like 1 and 1/2 year and change it again. but if you dont want to redo the wholesetup you can add a cup of soil like once a month after water change to maintain the ph. hope this help lower to 6.5 I think.


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## bettaforu

With all shrimp tanks you need to monitor your PH at all times just in case!
I would say that yes after about a year you may need to start replacing it, or just top up every 6 months or so.

I just did up another tank yesterday, here is the results.

Setup is 5 gallon square tank (same type as the Fluval Chai tanks) with sponge and hang on back filter smaller size, maybe an aquaclear 100. Fluval substrate on bottom and a piece of dragon lace rock and 2 river stones.

I rinsed the gravel in a strainer without stirring it for 5 mins, then put it in the tank...took care to carefully pour water straight from tap into the tank without stirring it up too much. Water was greyish and cloudy to start.

After 3 hours water was clear as a day and I tested the PH...as usual 7.6

This morning approx 16 hours after setup I again tested the water....PH is 7.2
so already dropping down.

Tested the water in the first Fluval setup of 5 gallon tank and the PH is 6.6
I do believe this substrate will work for housing crystal shrimps and others that like soft water.

I am going to put my newly arriving BLUE BEES picture from breeder (with permission) in this tank along with some other blue shrimp I just found in my community tank. They are this blue > 

I think they may be the offspring of a couple of blue pearls I had found (babies) in one of my tanks that I emptied and sold the shrimps to IGOR...found a few still hanging in the substrate when I went to empty the tank, so I threw them in the tiger/yellow fire tank and forgot about them.

They are truly a very bright blue, and already look good against the dark color of the Fluval gravel.

These won't cross with the Blue Bees as they are a different species, but I will have an all blue tank


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## Guest

Thanks for being the guinea pig for this substrate Anna. Looks like a good option for many people.


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## camboy012406

hi anna, how to top up the soil do you need to rinse it first or not? it is okey if you have shrimps inside the tank when topping up the soil?


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## bettaforu

No problem, as you all know I am an avid shrimp breeder/agent, so I need to have tanks setup to house my incoming shrimps until I can get them delivered to my customers. 

I constantly fight high PH here in Burlington... I could get ADA soil for myself, but the cost including my US fees and shipping there would be around $50-60 bag ....not cost effective!

When I saw this substrate at Big Als, I checked the bag and it did say it provides the proper PH for shrimps, so at $29.99 + tax for a 4 kg bag it was not overpriced (Flourite etc is more expensive) It had the same look as the ADA soil and as shrimps don't need deep substrate to survive in I felt I could probably use it anyway.

I just grabbed a nice 7 galloon square at an auction on Sunday which is identical to the Fluval Chai tank I have in my living room, which I overpaid for  Could have got it for $50 in the US, but paid BA $90 with tax...grrrhhh. OK I am saving the economy by buying Cdn....

I have to say that is does look very nice in the tanks, sort of a chocolatey color, and the granules are not extremely small so the shrimps are not having a hard time crawling over it.

I have to say I LIKE IT A LOT...so Im going to go get a few more bags so I can top out my other tanks with it.


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## bettaforu

OK this is how I do it, but maybe others have a different way. 

When I want to change the look of my substrate, like when I wanted the white sand look, I just rinsed the soil well and slowly drop it in the tank, a little at a time, start in one corner, so the shrimps can get out of the way, then slowly move around the tank with the new substrate until the surface is covered by the new one. 

If you do it a little at a time, it does not create a lot of cloudiness and the shrimps get used to it, in fact once its done they are usually all over it to check it out for food particles.  

If you have a heavily planted tank that might take a little more engineering and manouvering around them...I don't uproot the plants, just sprinkle the new gravel etc around them.

Hope this helps.


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## ShrimpieLove

Thanks for all this info and experiment, it really helps me to see what to expect in using this kinda substrate since its completely new to me... I dont have it yet but it might be a goid option for crystals since i didnt have luck with them before with the high ph here

Btw, wouldnt your blue pearls and yellow fires cross breed if theyre in the same tank? Just trying to get to know more about blue pearls since id like to keep them in the near future


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## camboy012406

blue peals, yellow shrimps, sakura and cherry shrimps are the same species. yes they will cross breed. better to seperate them.


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## bettaforu

Yes there is that chance that they will crossbreed. In fact I have a very pretty lime greenish shrimp in that tank that I am convinced is a cross between the blue pearl and the yellow fire 

I fished out all of the blues and here is a very blurry pic, but you can see the color of my blue shrimps that came out of that tank.


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## ShrimpieLove

Oh thats such a pretty blue!! Love it!!


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## bettaforu

Day 5 of the 5 gallon, and Day 3 of the 7 gallon Fluval experiment!

The PH in the 5 gallon is holding at a steady PH 6.6

The PH in the 7 gallon today is now down to PH 6.8

I am sure that this type of substrate is now safe for CRS keeping!

PS: Just saw my Blue Pearls mating in the 5 gallon setup, so they like it in there


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## bettaforu

OK...here is the verdict!

PH is holding at 6.6 in both tanks!

I am now going to put some more of this substrate in all the tanks, as it definitely seems to work good and the shrimp love it! My Blue Pearls are all over the tank right now, just crawling around everywhere...they don't usually do that in the other tanks...just hide.


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## camboy012406

bettafuro, what brand of test kit you have? for ph,gh and kh?


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## bettaforu

I have several ones...I have the big Master Test Kit which has everything in it, then I have Laguna Pond Test Kit and also a smaller Test Kit. I alternate them so that I can more accurately gage the results if I am using 2 different ones...if the results are the same then I know I have it right.


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## igor.kanshyn

This new Fluval substrate works for me as well.

I have pH 6.8 in my 10 gallon tank after 5 days after set up.


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## bettaforu

I really like the look of this soil, and the shrimps seem to love it. I have had 2 molts already since I put the shrimps into the first tank. My black tigers have been buzzing around looking for girls since they got in there too....
" Love is in the Air "


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## CrystalMethShrimp

$29.99 per 4kg bag is a great deal. Just know that you can also get 4kg ADA here in markham for $45. It's $15 more but this is something you'll only need to change once per year. I'm not saying the ada will last longer, but I'm sure it won't be shorter. 

I also wonder how Amano deals with his huge natural aquarium gallery when the soil depletes. My best guess is to just vacuum the dust and pour in a new handful per month. This is though however if your trying to grow an hc carpet.


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## camboy012406

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> $29.99 per 4kg bag is a great deal. Just know that you can also get 4kg ADA here in markham for $45. It's $15 more but this is something you'll only need to change once per year. I'm not saying the ada will last longer, but I'm sure it won't be shorter.
> 
> I also wonder how Amano deals with his huge natural aquarium gallery when the soil depletes. My best guess is to just vacuum the dust and pour in a new handful per month. This is though however if your trying to grow an hc carpet.


 9kg of ada soil is 45$ not 4kg.


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## camboy012406

hi bettaforu, I just wanted to know if you use ro water for waterchange in you crs, blacktiger tank? or direct to the tap??


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## CrystalMethShrimp

What? Ada is cheaper? I bought 4.5 kg from james before for $30 but that's cause he brought it in from the states. Think I'll go grab a bag today if it's only $45 for 9 kg.


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## igor.kanshyn

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> What? Ada is cheaper? I bought 4.5 kg from james before for $30 but that's cause he brought it in from the states. Think I'll go grab a bag today if it's only $45 for 9 kg.


There is a company that sells it now. 
Look here: http://www.aquainspiration.com/productdetail.asp?PIN=SS&PNAME=ADA&PSIZE=9LB1


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## camboy012406

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> What? Ada is cheaper? I bought 4.5 kg from james before for $30 but that's cause he brought it in from the states. Think I'll go grab a bag today if it's only $45 for 9 kg.


lol. hurry when there is available.. I already bought 3 bags.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

camboy012406 said:


> lol. hurry when there is available.. I already bought 3 bags.


Hey you jerk! stop buying up all the stock!! 

I'm gonna go grab one today because they can be gone anytime. Man I love this stuff, makes my water para perfect and my shrimps stopped dying. I just want to rub it all over my body lol.


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## arc

Thanks for the review and experiments bettaforu and Igor. Hope you post more results down the road to see how long the buffering ability of the new substrate is. 

In case anyone wanted to know 9L of ADA is about 20lbs or 9kg. It's hard to compare as the density also comes into affect and the one the lighter one may have more volume.


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## camboy012406

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Hey you jerk! stop buying up all the stock!!
> 
> I'm gonna go grab one today because they can be gone anytime. Man I love this stuff, makes my water para perfect and my shrimps stopped dying. I just want to rub it all over my body lol.


just to be wise.lol coz aquains. is the only store selling ada products here in toronto. I will be back again next week and buy 2 bags. I saw there diplay tanks all are beautiful. im thinking also the fluval stratum substrate they have 4kg for 19$ sooo cheap. but I will try ada first.


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## jon021

I'm also using the fluval stratum, i swapped out my old eco complete and put my shrimp back after several hours. Haven't lost a single shrimp, and the ph dropped to 6.8 within 3 hours of swapping out the substrate. I've been testing the ph daily and it's holding steady at 6.8 so i'm happy with it, and my crs seem to be as well.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

I'm confused, is ADA amazonian soil a premium substrate and fluval ebi just a generic Taiwan soil re branded or are they both of same quality?


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## Guest

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> I'm confused, is ADA amazonian soil a premium substrate and fluval ebi just a generic Taiwan soil re branded or are they both of same quality?


The Fluval Ebi Stratum is from Japan. It is made by a famous (can't get them to admit the source) shrimp breeder and product supplier in Japan. It has been in the works by Hagen for the past year. It took them a while to get this product and have it labeled under their branding.


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## bettaforu

Just an update...fluval tanks holding steady! I just noticed my blue orange eyed very dark female tiger is already berried! I just put her in there on Thursday night and she wasn't berried then. She's in with 2 black tigers, and they were swimming around gung ho on Thursday night....guess someone got lucky 

The shrimps seem to like this soil very much! I am going to swap out all of my shrimps tanks except the tigers, as they are doing just fine in the other tank (don't want to fix something that isn't broke)


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## Greg_o

What stores in the GTA carry this?


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## arc

*Frank's Aquarium*
*Fluval Flora Plant Stratum*

Both have it in stock and I'm sure there's others as bettaforu got it from big als. I've checked big als Scarborough but no luck.

I just picked up some today and will be adding it in a 1 liter cup rather than a total substrate replacement to see how it works with increments. Hope bettaforu doesn't mind me posting it here.

Water before the 1 liter cup
ph: 7.4-7.6 (API test kit colours look too similar)
GH: 7
KH: 6

Water After 1 hour
ph: 7.4-7.6
GH: 7
KH: 6

*No shrimp deaths

A friend with me picked up 9L of ADA I and did a total replacement this afternoon

Water before
PH: 7.6

Water after 3 hours
PH: 7.4-7.6

*No shrimp deaths

I'll update as I get more info and quite excited that both products are now available in Toronto.

Cheers


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## Guest

Greg_o said:


> What stores in the GTA carry this?


Menagerie $27.99 per bag (4kg)


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## camboy012406

bettaforu said:


> Just an update...fluval tanks holding steady! I just noticed my blue orange eyed very dark female tiger is already berried! I just put her in there on Thursday night and she wasn't berried then. She's in with 2 black tigers, and they were swimming around gung ho on Thursday night....guess someone got lucky
> 
> The shrimps seem to like this soil very much! I am going to swap out all of my shrimps tanks except the tigers, as they are doing just fine in the other tank (don't want to fix something that isn't broke)


thats agood newss bettafuro!!!! any pics?? just wondering what kind of food did you give to the shtimplets?


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## bettaforu

OOOH...new shrimps berried....the lovely blue pearl lady is a momma! Funny thing too, is I put my new blue bees in this fluval tank and usually these tiny shrimps hide to the point you just never see them  

Well they are out and about scrambling alongside the rest of the crowd wanting some shirakura food  They are all trying to pull the piece away from one another, having a tug of war over it.

I feed shirakura, mosura, hikari shrimp cuisine, hikari algae wafers, and powdered earth worm flakes. A varied diet is better all round for them, this way they get their meat and veggies 

Picking up another 2 bags of this soil today to set up more tanks, so I can separate each type into their own tank.


go ahead and post your own results I only did this so everyone having a hard time with high PH can see that it does work!

PS...just found one of my golden bees berried too but that's in another tank!
Yeah never thought that would happen...the rest of the shrimps in with her are Hino and Mosura Blacks, so this should be interesting


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## arc

*48 Hour update*

48 Hour update. *Fluval Flora Plant Stratum*

Fluval Stratum 10g tank.
ph: 7.4-7.6 maybe closer to 7.4
Ammonia: 0

I've replaced the old substrate, I think it was buffering the ph to stay high. The one litre I had in there didn't seem like it was going to do anything so now its all Fluval soil. This soil does seem to cloud a lot compared to ada which had minimal when we setup my friend's tank.

No shrimp deaths
The colour of the Fluval soil seems a bit darker and it's easier to crumble. Guess only time will tellif this last as long as the ADA

Friend's ADA I 20g tank.

Massive outbreak of green water.
ph: 7.4
Ammonia: 0.25



arc said:


> *Frank's Aquarium
> 
> Aqua Inspiration*
> 
> Both have it in stock and I'm sure there's others as bettaforu got it from big als. I've checked big als Scarborough but no luck.
> 
> I just picked up some today and will be adding it in a 1 liter cup rather than a total substrate replacement to see how it works with increments. Hope bettaforu doesn't mind me posting it here.
> 
> Water before the 1 liter cup
> ph: 7.4-7.6 (API test kit colours look too similar)
> GH: 7
> KH: 6
> 
> Water After 1 hour
> ph: 7.4-7.6
> GH: 7
> KH: 6
> 
> *No shrimp deaths
> 
> A friend with me picked up 9L of ADA I and did a total replacement this afternoon
> 
> Water before
> PH: 7.6
> 
> Water after 3 hours
> PH: 7.4-7.6
> 
> *No shrimp deaths
> 
> I'll update as I get more info and quite excited that both products are now available in Toronto.
> 
> Cheers


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## 3020

arc said:


> 48 Hour update.
> 
> Fluval Stratum 10g tank.
> ph: 7.4-7.6 maybe closer to 7.4
> Ammonia: 0
> 
> I've replaced the old substrate, I think it was buffering the ph to stay high. The one litre I had in there didn't seem like it was going to do anything so now its all Fluval soil. This soil does seem to cloud a lot compared to ada which had minimal when we setup my friend's tank.
> 
> No shrimp deaths
> The colour of the Fluval soil seems a bit darker and it's easier to crumble. Guess only time will tellif this last as long as the ADA
> 
> Friend's ADA I 20g tank.
> 
> Massive outbreak of green water.
> ph: 7.4
> Ammonia: 0.25


The fluval soil in your pic isn't the shrimp version though... Its the one made for plants, unless I am mistaken and they are both the same.


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## jon021

3020 said:


> The fluval soil in your pic isn't the shrimp version though... Its the one made for plants, unless I am mistaken and they are both the same.


You're right, thats the stratum for plants, the one for shrimp comes in a red package. My ph droped in just hours when i switched to the fluval ebi stratum.


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## arc

You're right, wow I can't believe I missed that.

Well I've got to keep it going since it's all set up now. Good news is that they both should reduce ph. Lets see what damage this will cause.

Bad news is that i've got a reading of 0.25 ammonia


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## Greg_o

arc said:


> reading of 0.25 ammonia


Has anyone been recording measurements of ammonia with the shrimp substrate? I'm wondering how long I should expect it to cycle.


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## camboy012406

Greg_o said:


> Has anyone been recording measurements of ammonia with the shrimp substrate? I'm wondering how long I should expect it to cycle.


I Saw in the other forum like you should wait for approximately 1 month with frequent water change.


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## Greg_o

Yeah that's what one would suspect but it sounds like people are using this much quicker.


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## igor.kanshyn

camboy012406 said:


> I Saw in the other forum like you should wait for approximately 1 month with frequent water change.


This is not right.
Fluval Stratum is not like ADA. It doesn't release ammonia. It might be a little.


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## igor.kanshyn

Greg_o said:


> Has anyone been recording measurements of ammonia with the shrimp substrate? I'm wondering how long I should expect it to cycle.


I had some ammonia (3-4ppm) on a third day, but it's clean now (day 6). I have partially cycled filter in that tank. 
Starting from day 4, I keep 8 shrimps in the tank and they look fine.


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## igor.kanshyn

*Low hardness*

I've made a 25% WC in that tank with Fluval substrate 2.5 days ago.

Current water parameters are
Ph - 7.0
GH - 80ppm - 4.5d
Kh - 20ppm - 1d

The interesting thing here is hardness.
I use tap water that is the way hardier that these numbers.


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## bettaforu

I checked my ammonia levels every other day with NO ammonia at all. I have already had several moltings in these tanks even the red crystals have molted after only a few days, and saw a lot of jumping on one another yesterday all over the tank.

For those of you getting some of my reds...maybe you will have a surprise in a few days  

I am changing out all of my tanks to this soil as it seems to be preferable by the shrimps all round.


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## ShrimpieLove

I may try the ebi substrate when I have the $, now that I have ordered a test kit Ill be able to monitor it  
Would the 2kg bag be enough for a 5gallon tank? Does anyone know the 2kg bags cost? Can it be mixed with gravel or should it always be used alone?


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## igor.kanshyn

GuppyLove said:


> I may try the ebi substrate when I have the $, now that I have ordered a test kit Ill be able to monitor it
> Would the 2kg bag be enough for a 5gallon tank? Does anyone know the 2kg bags cost? Can it be mixed with gravel or should it always be used alone?


It will be enough for 5g for sure.
The cost is vary, it's $15-$20 for 2kg.

It's stated on a package that it should not be mixed with gravel. However, I guess that you can, but this no point for doing this


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## ShrimpieLove

So how do you clean the substrate when you have this fluval soil? I have gravel so i use a gravel siphon normally.... How do you clean deep into the soil substrate? Or do you not touch the soil ever


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## anthropos

My best guess would be to hover over the substrate just enough to vacuum up the mulm, but not close enough to pick up the soil. Hopefully someone else will chime in here.

Is this substrate the same as the Flora one, just repackaged, or is it formulated differently? I'm having difficulties getting the flora one to hold on to the roots of plants--they just keep floating to the top. I guess I'm going to have to find some weights or tie the plants down to something, but there isn't really that much room.


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## igor.kanshyn

GuppyLove said:


> So how do you clean the substrate when you have this fluval soil? I have gravel so i use a gravel siphon normally.... How do you clean deep into the soil substrate? Or do you not touch the soil ever


Yes, just vacuum some dirt from the top of it and do not disturb the substrate a lot. It's the way they suggest on a package


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## igor.kanshyn

anthropos said:


> My best guess would be to hover over the substrate just enough to vacuum up the mulm, but not close enough to pick up the soil. Hopefully someone else will chime in here.
> 
> Is this substrate the same as the Flora one, just repackaged, or is it formulated differently? I'm having difficulties getting the flora one to hold on to the roots of plants--they just keep floating to the top. I guess I'm going to have to find some weights or tie the plants down to something, but there isn't really that much room.


These two should be different substrates.

In a heavily planted tank (like this shrimp cube, for instance), there is no way and possibility to clean the bottom. You just can vacuum mud from some small areas. 
Just make sure that your filter is working good and your aquarium will be fine.


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## camboy012406

GuppyLove said:


> So how do you clean the substrate when you have this fluval soil? I have gravel so i use a gravel siphon normally.... How do you clean deep into the soil substrate? Or do you not touch the soil ever


i think you dont need to vacuum the bottom. just 10 percent wc will do. coz you might siphon the baby shrimps.


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## arc

*Flora *

Looks like the two types are a lot different when it comes to buffering the water. I'm still testing the Flora substrate instead of the shrimp one and here are the numbers.

5 days
Fluval *Flora *Stratum 10g tank.
ph: 7.4 - 7.2
GH: 6
KH: 3

Start values
ph: 7.6
GH: 7
KH: 6

Friend's 20g ada I will be redone as the soil is defected (PH not dropping, think they said it was one of the batch that is bad) and the retailer is shipping in a replacement in the coming week(s)

Will see what the values are in another week.



arc said:


> 48 Hour update. *Fluval Flora Plant Stratum*
> 
> Fluval Stratum 10g tank.
> ph: 7.4-7.6 maybe closer to 7.4
> Ammonia: 0
> 
> I've replaced the old substrate, I think it was buffering the ph to stay high. The one litre I had in there didn't seem like it was going to do anything so now its all Fluval soil. This soil does seem to cloud a lot compared to ada which had minimal when we setup my friend's tank.
> 
> No shrimp deaths
> The colour of the Fluval soil seems a bit darker and it's easier to crumble. Guess only time will tellif this last as long as the ADA
> 
> Friend's ADA I 20g tank.
> 
> Massive outbreak of green water.
> ph: 7.4
> Ammonia: 0.25


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## camboy012406

arc said:


> *Flora *
> 
> Friend's 20g ada I will be redone as the soil is defected (PH not dropping, think they said it was one of the batch that is bad) and the retailer is shipping in a replacement in the coming week(s)
> 
> im just wondering where did he bought those ada soil?? what do you mean defected?


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## arc

> im just wondering where did he bought those ada soil?? what do you mean defected?


Not sure about the defect but he bought ADA I because of coldmantis issue with ADA II
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17418&page=2
PM when I get an answer.


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## camboy012406

arc said:


> Not sure about the defect but he bought ADA I because of coldmantis issue with ADA II
> http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17418&page=2
> PM when I get an answer.


okey man thanks, I bought mine from aquainspiration. so today my ph is 7.5 so I will wait another week for the good results.


----------



## Joeee

Saw some at PJ's Pets today, it costs $56 for the big bag, $16(?) for the smaller bag.

How often does it need to be replaced?


----------



## 3020

That is pretty expensive then cause for the big bag it only cost $27.99 at menagerie and $30 at Safari in Vaughan mills, unless the bag your referring to is larger than 4.4kg.


----------



## Greg_o

At Franks it's less than half that price.

My CRS are in and they seem well. I was worried because in the bucket during the drip acclimatization they seemed stressed, losing a lot of colour, but once in the tank they looked great right away.


----------



## arc

I think there's 3 bags, 2kg, 4kg, 8kg. For 8kg, $56 is decent.


----------



## Joeee

I don't remember the number exactly, but I don't think it was the 4kg. Isn't it also 8.8kg, not 8? 

If it's 8.8kg then thats 19 pounds, which comes up to about $3 a pound.

I think the big bag is the 8.8kg and the smaller bag is the 2kg because there's two possibilities;

Possibility 1 - It was the 4.4kg bag and 8.8kg bag:
4.4kg bag is 9.7 pounds, so that's about $1.6 a pound

Possibility 2 - It was a 2kg bag and the 8.8kg bag:
2kg = 4.4 pounds, so that's about $3.6 a pound


EDIT - CORRETION
It was 8kg, not 8.8kg.


----------



## bettaforu

OK just so eveyone doesn't get the wrong kind....there are 2 of the new Fluval soils...one is for Shrimps ONLY and the other is for Plants etc.

Shrimp only bags are 2kg and 4kg only...and the bag is RED

Flora one comes in 2kg, 4kg, and 16kg and the bag is GREEN

The one you want is the Red bag, which is the one I used. I think the Flora one does not drop the PH that much as plants don't need lower PH to grow...at least not in my tanks! 

You can just top up the soil once a year, or just add a few handfulls every few months to keep it good....you need to check your PH levels on a regular basis anyway! Buy a PH test strip kit its well worth the money!!


----------



## Guest

bettaforu said:


> Flora one comes in 2kg, 4kg, and 16kg and the bag is GREEN
> 
> !


there is an 8kg bag but no 16kg... I wish there was a 16kg.

I wouldn't say the Shrimp Stratum is for shrimps only. There are plenty of plants/mosses/liverworts that you could keep in the shrimp stratum and love the conditions


----------



## bettaforu

Right, its not just for shrimps only, but made especially for shrimps.

Yes there is a bigger bag. I drove over to PJ's in Sq 1 to pick up the bigger bag only to find it was *for the plants in the green bag*...$54.99 each, its twice the size of the 8lb one. Wish they had made the shrimp one in a bigger bag too...maybe they will bring one out once people start buying this type.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Joeee said:


> Saw some at PJ's Pets today, it costs $56 for the big bag, $16(?) for the smaller bag.
> 
> How often does it need to be replaced?


What substrate are you talking about? ADA?


----------



## Joeee

igor.kanshyn said:


> What substrate are you talking about? ADA?


The Fluval Ebi stratum


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Joeee said:


> The Fluval Ebi stratum


Ah I see.
PJ's Pets on Lawrence and Young has only 2kg bags. They are for $16.xx

Menagerie is supposed to be the best place to get this stuff if you are not from Markham area 
They have 4kg bags for ~ $26.xx


----------



## ShrimpieLove

So now that the ebi shrimp substrate has been in your tanks for a while and done water changes has anyone seen changes in ph/gh/kh... Or has it held stable?


----------



## arc

Going to start using the Ebi stuff now after this week. So the final experiment numbers are...

Fluval *Flora *Stratum 10g tank.

*Almost 2 week *
12 Days
ph: 7.4 - 7.2
GH: 6
KH: 3

*5 Days*
ph: 7.4 - 7.2
GH: 6
KH: 3

*Start/24 values*
ph: 7.6
GH: 7
KH: 6

*Tap water*
ph: 7.6
GH: 9
KH: 6

Side notes:

*I used about 3/4 of a 4kg bag of Flora substrate giving me a 1.5in layer in a 10gallon

**
No Shrimp deaths, 2 of them are berried now

***
No water changes during the test

****
Using a 1 litre container, I placed some of the flora so that 1/4 of it was just substrate and the rest water. After 5 days the numbers are

ph: 6.8
GH: 6
KH: 1-2

Looks like Flora Plant Substrate works if you have enough of it and don't gas out the CO2 but Ebi works better at lowering the ph/gh/kh



arc said:


> *Flora *
> 
> Looks like the two types are a lot different when it comes to buffering the water. I'm still testing the Flora substrate instead of the shrimp one and here are the numbers.
> 
> 5 days
> Fluval *Flora *Stratum 10g tank.
> ph: 7.4 - 7.2
> GH: 6
> KH: 3
> 
> Start values
> ph: 7.6
> GH: 7
> KH: 6
> 
> Friend's 20g ada I will be redone as the soil is defected (PH not dropping, think they said it was one of the batch that is bad) and the retailer is shipping in a replacement in the coming week(s)
> 
> Will see what the values are in another week.


----------



## Joeee

igor.kanshyn said:


> Ah I see.
> PJ's Pets on Lawrence and Young has only 2kg bags. They are for $16.xx
> 
> Menagerie is supposed to be the best place to get this stuff if you are not from Markham area
> They have 4kg bags for ~ $26.xx


The 4kg bags at Menagerie at $28 each. The 8kg bags at PJ Pets pretty much the same price.

I just bought a 4kg bag, nearly impossible to clean, so I just gave up and dumped it into my tank which is becomnig less cloudly as I speak.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Joeee said:


> The 4kg bags at Menagerie at $28 each. The 8kg bags at PJ Pets pretty much the same price.
> 
> I just bought a 4kg bag, nearly impossible to clean, so I just gave up and dumped it into my tank which is becomnig less cloudly as I speak.


What PJ is it?
PJ's on Young and Lawrence has only 2kg bugs 

I found that it made no sense to wash. If you rinse it, water become clear. Once you move this soil, water in cloudy again.


----------



## Joeee

igor.kanshyn said:


> What PJ is it?
> PJ's on Young and Lawrence has only 2kg bugs
> 
> I found that it made no sense to wash. If you rinse it, water become clear. Once you move this soil, water in cloudy again.


It's the PJ Pet's at Square One, I think Brent, the store manager who has an account on this forum, works on Sundays, as he was working last week.

Yeah, I realized that I lost a lot of the gravel due to washing. I'm just hoping that it won't get sucked up into my python when I'm doing water changes, which I think it will.


----------



## Joeee

Results for the Stratum:

Time = 0
pH - 7.5

Time = 24 hours
pH - 7.1


----------



## DetectivePopcorn

Joeee said:


> It's the PJ Pet's at Square One, I think Brent, the store manager who has an account on this forum, works on Sundays, as he was working last week.
> 
> Yeah, I realized that I lost a lot of the gravel due to washing. I'm just hoping that it won't get sucked up into my python when I'm doing water changes, which I think it will.


All store managers have Wednesday and Sunday off, he was most likely covering for someone.

Also, I know we carry this substrate at work, and we have it in one of our tank and they _seem_ to like it ... But everyone is aggreed that it's a decent substrate? (Been thinking of making a shrimp tank for a long long time ... )


----------



## RCode

I bought a 4kg bag for my 10 galon tank on Friday from Franks (he now carries it, and said it comes with good recomendations). I put it in the tank after it was already filled, I rinsed it a bunch of times, but after getting tired of waiting for the water to come perfectly clean, I put it in my tank. It caused the water to mirk up for the day, but I just left the filter on, and everything cleared up really nicely after a day.

All my cherry shrimp are really easy to find now, and everyone just looks happier. =) I only used about 1.5-2kg for the 10 gallons, but i have a few other rocks and such in the tank, plus I didn't really want to overdo it.

-Sam.


----------



## Harry Muscle

DetectivePopcorn said:


> All store managers have Wednesday and Sunday off, he was most likely covering for someone.
> 
> Also, I know we carry this substrate at work, and we have it in one of our tank and they _seem_ to like it ... But everyone is aggreed that it's a decent substrate? (Been thinking of making a shrimp tank for a long long time ... )


Actually Brent isnt' the store manager ... but he's the most helpful guy there from what I've seen. He also does all the ordering.

Harry


----------



## DetectivePopcorn

Harry Muscle said:


> Actually Brent isnt' the store manager ... but he's the most helpful guy there from what I've seen. He also does all the ordering.
> 
> Harry


Ohhh ok, I'ts been a long while sense I've been to that particular store ... is he the guy with the Shark tatt on his arm?

And a lot of the time the people farther down the chain are a tonne more helpful! ... not sure why that is ...


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Joeee said:


> The 4kg bags at Menagerie at $28 each. The 8kg bags at PJ Pets pretty much the same price.


8kg in PJ Pets is $54+tax. It's almost the same as 2 x 4kg from Menagerie 
Or it might be a PJ Pets with a better price?


----------



## Guest

igor.kanshyn said:


> 8kg in PJ Pets is $54+tax. It's almost the same as 2 x 4kg from Menagerie
> Or it might be a PJ Pets with a better price?


There isn't a 8kg bag of the Shrimp substrate (2kg and 4kg only), unless PJ's has an exclusive listing. I can't find an 8kg bag on my listing from Hagen in any of my Hagen releases on the product. The Shrimp stratum is shipped two x 4kg bags in a thick plastic sleeve. Is that how they are selling it? There is an 8kg bag of the Flora Stratum which the Menagerie sells for $42.99.

The Ebi/Shrimp Stratum is now $50 (+tax of course) for two 4kg bags at the Menagerie.


----------



## Joeee

h_s said:


> There isn't a 8kg bag of the Shrimp substrate (2kg and 4kg only), unless PJ's has an exclusive listing. I can't find an 8kg bag on my listing from Hagen in any of my Hagen releases on the product. The Shrimp stratum is shipped two x 4kg bags in a thick plastic sleeve. Is that how they are selling it? There is an 8kg bag of the Flora Stratum which the Menagerie sells for $42.99.
> 
> The Ebi/Shrimp Stratum is now $50 (+tax of course) for two 4kg bags at the Menagerie.


o.o it might have been the Flora substrate that I've seen, is it also black? I'm going to pay them a visit on Friday because my friend needs help stocking his aquarium so I'll check then.

So the Ebi Stratum substrate is $28/bag for just one bag and $50 for two at Menagerie?


----------



## Guest

Joeee said:


> So the Ebi Stratum substrate is $28/bag for just one bag and $50 for two at Menagerie?


yes it is, as of Monday.


----------



## SOUPNAZZI

Hi everyone

I would like to change the gravel substrate in my son's 20G tank with the Fluval Flora Stratum

Current Stock:

5 Perl Danio
7 Serpea Tetra
6 Bronze Cories
2 Nerite Zebra snails

Would the new substrate be ok with the above stock considering Arc's 2 week results

Almost 2 week 
12 Days
ph: 7.4 - 7.2
GH: 6
KH: 3


----------



## bettaforu

I changed out one of my other already setup tanks by doing it this way. I rinsed the stratum for 5 mins in cold water, didn't stir it too much. Then I took it over to the tank that was already running with aquasoil substrate in it, and I used a small net to scoop up some of the stratum and just deposit
it in different section until I had the whole surface covered. 

It clouded the water up a bit but not that much, and within and hour or so the water in the tank was again clear, but the surface was now black instead of orangy clay looking.

What this did was to lower the existing PH in the stable tank to a lower PH, and did not disturb the natural balance already in the tank. My plants are growing great, the snails are breeding and everyone is happy and healthy.

You don't need to move any of the older substrate out, just put the stratum on top of it...it works just as well as if you just setup a new tank, only this way your bacteria and everything else stays the same, just the PH will get lower.

Hope this helps.


----------



## SOUPNAZZI

Thank you.

I'm considering to leave his tank alone. I will get myself another tank(shrimp only).


----------



## ShrimpieLove

Yay im getting some fluval shrimp stratum for Christmas as a gift ive never had a soil before sooooo
So I have a couple questions: 

1. Water changes: when ill be doing water changes15% and adding conditioned tap water which will be ph 7.6 wont the ph in the tank(which will be about 6.7 lets say) change rapidly? Do I need to drip the new water in or something? 

2. What plants will grow in a low ph? Im planning on adding pellia on some rocks- will that plant like low ph? Mosses? 

3. Adding shrimps: i have some oebts that are in ph7.6,kh4 gh8 currently...id like to try some in this tank so how long should I take to acclimate them from the old tank to the new low ph ? 

4. Mineral supplements: now that the ph/kh/gh will be lower in this shrimp substrate do I need to add this mineral supplement stuff, or not? 

Thanks for reading


----------



## camboy012406

GuppyLove said:


> Yay im getting some fluval shrimp stratum for Christmas as a gift ive never had a soil before sooooo
> So I have a couple questions:
> 
> 1. Water changes: when ill be doing water changes15% and adding conditioned tap water which will be ph 7.6 wont the ph in the tank(which will be about 6.7 lets say) change rapidly? Do I need to drip the new water in or something?
> 
> 2. What plants will grow in a low ph? Im planning on adding pellia on some rocks- will that plant like low ph? Mosses?
> 
> 3. Adding shrimps: i have some oebts that are in ph7.6,kh4 gh8 currently...id like to try some in this tank so how long should I take to acclimate them from the old tank to the new low ph ?
> 
> 4. Mineral supplements: now that the ph/kh/gh will be lower in this shrimp substrate do I need to add this mineral supplement stuff, or not?
> 
> Thanks for reading


hi guppy for your questions contact the shrimp master. igor


----------



## igor.kanshyn

camboy012406 said:


> hi guppy for your questions contact the shrimp master. igor


Thank you, camboy, but it's very far from being true 

Regarding questions:



> 1. Water changes: when ill be doing water changes15% and adding conditioned tap water which will be ph 7.6 wont the ph in the tank(which will be about 6.7 lets say) change rapidly? Do I need to drip the new water in or something?


pH swing is not a good thing, but I believe that it should not be a problem. People do change water in such tanks and shrimps are fine.
You can changes less water but twice a week if you are scary about this. You can use RO water mixed with tap water, but I'm not sure that it's necessary.



> 2. What plants will grow in a low ph? Im planning on adding pellia on some rocks- will that plant like low ph? Mosses?


This substrate has been created for growing plants, almost all plant like lower pH. mosses and pelia grow fine in lower pH.



> 3. Adding shrimps: i have some oebts that are in ph7.6,kh4 gh8 currently...id like to try some in this tank so how long should I take to acclimate them from the old tank to the new low ph ?


That's for sure. Read this: http://www.shrimp-tank.com/acclimatization



> 4. Mineral supplements: now that the ph/kh/gh will be lower in this shrimp substrate do I need to add this mineral supplement stuff, or not?


I think that it will be used. Your GH will about 2-4, so it might make sense to bring up GH a little bit. Some 'shrimp minerals' are supposed to be useful in any case.
I'm adding KIO clay, mineral rocks can be also good, they just more expensive 
I don't see any difference in shrimp shells, but I have nothing to compare with. I just add clay to all tanks when it comes to my mind


----------



## ShrimpieLove

Thanks for answering all my questions Igor! 
For the gh- if it will be about 2-4 with the shrimp substrate, what would be the ideal parameter to raise it to?


----------



## igor.kanshyn

h_s said:


> There isn't a 8kg bag of the Shrimp substrate (2kg and 4kg only), unless PJ's has an exclusive listing.
> 
> The Ebi/Shrimp Stratum is now $50 (+tax of course) for two 4kg bags at the Menagerie.


Thats right. They just gave a wrong information.

I've bought my third bag of Shrimp Stratum in Menagerie today. Thank you!


----------



## igor.kanshyn

GuppyLove said:


> Thanks for answering all my questions Igor!
> For the gh- if it will be about 2-4 with the shrimp substrate, what would be the ideal parameter to raise it to?


I don't know for sure. GH 3-4 should be idea ones. I haven't found precise info in Internet 
And adding KOI clay/mineral rocks will not change it noticeable. Just stick to GH that you will get with your water and the substrate.


----------



## Bbedford

*Fluval shrimp substrate*

Ok. I rinsed the substrate like they said and 7 hours later the aquarium is still murky. Should I wait overnight for it o settle or drain and try again? Never used this before. So far yuck!


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Bbedford said:


> Ok. I rinsed the substrate like they said and 7 hours later the aquarium is still murky. Should I wait overnight for it o settle or drain and try again? Never used this before. So far yuck!


Do you have your filter running?

Just turn the filter on and forget about rinsing/washing the substrate a lot


----------



## Bbedford

Thanks. Should the filter be on high or low? Will the high continue to mix up the water? I am really not a total moron but the water is grey. Can't even see the foam on the back. Thanks.


----------



## tom g

*murky water*

in your filter did u put some filter floss in it , i started my tank with eco complete and put filter floss in it and within the day or so the water was crystal clear .
good luck
tom


----------



## igor.kanshyn

It will be cloudy, in the beginning.

Look at my videos:
1. There is no video about first days. A tank was like a grey cube 
2. New tank with Fluval Shrimp Stratum substrate. Day 2. Dirt and bacterials from old filter added
3. New tank with Fluval Shrimp Stratum substrate. Day 3. Algae seeds added


----------



## alexxa

where is the cheapest place to get fluval stratum in markham? and for wt price?
thx


----------



## Greg_o

I don't know the preice but I'd try Franks Aquarium on Kennedy.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

What is your pH guys?

I don't see what is wrong in my tanks, but *my pH is almost back to tap water*.
*I'm completely disappointed* about that! I have tree tank with this substrate and I'm afraid i will need to change them.


----------



## Beijing08

igor.kanshyn said:


> What is your pH guys?
> 
> I don't see what is wrong in my tanks, but *my pH is almost back to tap water*.
> *I'm completely disappointed* about that! I have tree tank with this substrate and I'm afraid i will need to change them.


that would be disappointing, one can only blame Toronto's hard water...my friend in Hong Kong uses this and he gets 6.5 out of it...less than 2" of substrate. Mine stays at 6.9 and I wouldn't be surprised if it shot back up.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Beijing08 said:


> that would be disappointing, one can only blame Toronto's hard water...my friend in Hong Kong uses this and he gets 6.5 out of it...less than 2" of substrate. Mine stays at 6.9 and I wouldn't be surprised if it shot back up.


The odd thing that GH is 5.5d and KH is 1d


----------



## arc

I'm getting 
PH: 7.4
GH: 5
KH: 2

15% weekly water changes with a sponge filter only. Looks like I'll be using RODI/tap water for future water changes as the soil is losing its buffering ability. I was at 6.8ph, 4gh, 1kh a few weeks ago.


----------



## Beijing08

arc said:


> I'm getting
> PH: 7.4
> GH: 5
> KH: 2
> 
> 15% weekly water changes with a sponge filter only. Looks like I'll be using RODI/tap water for future water changes as the soil is losing its buffering ability. I was at 6.8ph, 4gh, 1kh a few weeks ago.


that sucks! I just set up my tank with this stuff.


----------



## arc

If you start using RODI/tap mix now you maybe able to extend the life of the soil. My tap water is 
ph: 7.6
GH: 9
KH: 6

So the soil is working but the amount of water changes I do seems to be stripping its buffers quite fast.


----------



## ShrimpieLove

I have fluval shrimp stratum in my 5.5gal tank and its about 3/4 inch deep--i put it in january 1, tested my water on saturday night and i have 6.6ph, kh0, and gh4
I do 2 water changes a week, probably about 20% each time, and im using totonto tap water (ph7.6, kh5, gh8-9) for water changes 
Ill have to monitor the params as I go along to make sure it doesnt change, I have CRS in that tank


----------



## igor.kanshyn

ShrimpieLove said:


> I have fluval shrimp stratum in my 5.5gal tank and its about 3/4 inch deep--i put it in january 1, tested my water on saturday night and i have 6.6ph, kh0, and gh4
> I do 2 water changes a week, probably about 20% each time, and im using totonto tap water (ph7.6, kh5, gh8-9) for water changes
> Ill have to monitor the params as I go along to make sure it doesnt change, I have CRS in that tank


You parameters are good now. As from my experience, it will not take long  
Check your pH often if you have CRS babies there.


----------



## bettaforu

Just checked my PH today after reading this...in all fluval tanks the readings are st 6.8, so far not that much of a change. I have driftwood in each tank, with mosses, floating plants and both sponge and hob filters. I have 1 inch of fluval substrate in each tank.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

bettaforu said:


> Just checked my PH today after reading this...in all fluval tanks the readings are st 6.8, so far not that much of a change. I have driftwood in each tank, with mosses, floating plants and both sponge and hob filters. I have 1 inch of fluval substrate in each tank.


Thanks Anna. How often do you change water?
Do you add tap water or RO water?


----------



## igor.kanshyn

My current measurements are not that good.

5-week-old tank, 10 gallons, 4 kg of Fluval, 20% tap water changed in a week. Ph is *7.6* now
2-month-old tank, 10 gallons, 3 kg of Fluval, 10% tap water changed in a week. Ph is *7.4 *now


----------



## camboy012406

igor just want to ask if did you sit your water in a bucket for couple of days before putting it on the tank?


----------



## bettaforu

Igor, I don't use RO water at all. I sometimes top up with my pure water (have a filter on my kitchen tap) but that eliminates a lot of minerals as well as bad stuff. When I top up most often it is with the bathroom tap water and that is PH 7.6. 

Now here's the thing....if the water in the tanks are at say PH 6.6 or 6.8 and I add PH 7.6 water that is going to raise the PH somewhat until it settles down again maybe say 24 hours later.

I did notice a much lesser lowering of the PH in new tanks IF the tank was bigger than 5 gallons. I have a 10 gallon that only had about 1 inch of fluval in it and the PH remained at 7 for a while. I added more substrate and driftwood and some dragon lace rock and its now holding at 6.8 GH 5 and KH 2 (which is considered good for CRS)

Im not sure why there is a fluctuation in the PH on the fluval soil but maybe you are doing too many water changes? Maybe just 20% once a week or even every other week. If your tank isn't dirty then maybe just try this...could be the constant water changes might be raising your PH up all the time. Just a thought.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

camboy012406 said:


> igor just want to ask if did you sit your water in a bucket for couple of days before putting it on the tank?


No. I fill a bucket form a tap, wait for several minutes, add Prime, wait several more minutes and pour water into a tank.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

bettaforu said:


> Igor, I don't use RO water at all. I sometimes top up with my pure water (have a filter on my kitchen tap) but that eliminates a lot of minerals as well as bad stuff.
> ...


Have you ever tester pH of your 'pure water' ?
You will amazed how low is it 

Adding that filtered water into a tank from time to time will maintain a lower pH.


----------



## bettaforu

actually No its only PH 7...we tested it several times since we put the filter on the tap!

Igor I know people that have had problems using Prime in shrimp tanks! Not sure what happened, but they lost shrimp because of something in the Prime.

I had this happen to me last year when I used Prime in my Betta water, they all died! 

I stopped using it for any of my shrimp tanks, I just use Amquel + now or Nutrifin water conditioner.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

bettaforu said:


> actually No its only PH 7...we tested it several times since we put the filter on the tap!
> 
> Igor I know people that have had problems using Prime in shrimp tanks! Not sure what happened, but they lost shrimp because of something in the Prime.
> 
> I had this happen to me last year when I used Prime in my Betta water, they all died!
> 
> I stopped using it for any of my shrimp tanks, I just use Amquel + now or Nutrifin water conditioner.


I haven't seen problems with Prime, but it can be a cause of some my dead shrimps  Thank you for the info.


----------



## Greg_o

Hey Igor any news or updates with your recent findings?

I have this soil in two tanks, will keep an eye on them and let you know if I have any odd findings.

One thing I noticed is it took a long time (longer than what people in this thread were seeing) for the pH to drop. We're talking almost a month, and I think I 'helped' the process by using RO water.


----------



## ShrimpieLove

Is yours the shrimp stratum or the flora stratum greg_o? That does seem like a long time, my ph dropped in 3 days and i only use tap water, not RO.


----------



## ShrimpieLove

Tested my 5.5 gal today again, been running since jan1 with the fluval shrimp stratum, at first I had 6.4ph for a few weeks, last test was about 6.8ph and today it was between 7.0-7.2! (kh 0/1 and gh 4) Yikes!!! Seems the stratum isnt lasting that long.... Today i added a couple cupfuls of extra stratum to see if that lowers it back down again, theres at least an inch or more deep on the bottom now
Yipes!


----------



## Cornputer

ShrimpieLove said:


> Tested my 5.5 gal today again, been running since jan1 with the fluval shrimp stratum, at first I had 6.4ph for a few weeks, last test was about 6.8ph and today it was between 7.0-7.2! (kh 0/1 and gh 4) Yikes!!! Seems the stratum isnt lasting that long.... Today i added a couple cupfuls of extra stratum to see if that lowers it back down again, theres at least an inch or more deep on the bottom now
> Yipes!


I can confirm what Shrimplove is saying as it is the exact same results that I am getting too. One of my 10 gallon tanks started off around the 6.4 pH mark then slowly rose to 6.8 then 7.0 which is my latest pH to date. I also begun using this fluval stratum in January. My guess is the buffering effect is wearing off and also after a few water changes which make sense.


----------



## camboy012406

hey cornputer are u using ro for water change or just straight tap?


----------



## ShrimpieLove

I only use tap water... But does this happen with all soils this fast? Like ada -amazonia-stuff ive seen others here use with shrimps, does their soil wear out in a month or two using tap water?


----------



## Cornputer

camboy012406 said:


> hey cornputer are u using ro for water change or just straight tap?


tap water plus amquel+


----------



## ShrimpieLove

Cornputer said:


> I can confirm what Shrimplove is saying as it is the exact same results that I am getting too. One of my 10 gallon tanks started off around the 6.4 pH mark then slowly rose to 6.8 then 7.0 which is my latest pH to date. I also begun using this fluval stratum in January. My guess is the buffering effect is wearing off and also after a few water changes which make sense.


I wonder if the other soils do the same thing after a few tap water changes or if its only the fluval soil?


----------



## bettaforu

I just tested 3 of my fluval stratum tanks.

1st tank which is the oldest tested at PH 6.8 
2nd tank which is the second oldest tested at PH 7.2 
3rd tank which is the newest one tested at PH 7.4 

I don't change my water unless it shows ammonia levels, just top up with new water, and I don't use RO either, just straight tap water with Amquel +

So what I am wondering is why all 3 are different PH. Will have to contact Fluval and ask if anyone else has these problems. IF this soil is not going to keep the PH stable, then what is the point of advertising it for shrimps?

I am going to ask on several forums for answers, will keep you posted on what I find.


----------



## Greg_o

Looks like I'll be contacting Fluval as well - after less then two months my pH is up to 6.9.


----------



## bettaforu

Ive contacted Hagen, am waiting on a reply, will post it when I get one.


----------



## bettaforu

OK here is reply from Steve Pond, Customer Service Manager for Rolf C Hagen Inc.

We thank you for taking the time to contact us. The PH is dependent on a number of factors, but regular water changes with tap water of 7.6 is probably starting to overcome the ability to drop the PH and overcome the water supply's natural buffering.

What is the KH of the tap water ( my KH is 3)

The tap water is what continues to add buffers to the aquarium. The soil is initially able to drop the PH due to the level of KH. Over time it will lose this effect as replacement water with higher PH and KH are added. As the KH is neutralized and the buffering action of new water is overcome the soils ability to continue will be used up!

Sooo, what I guess he is saying is that when we continually add 7.6 PH tap water to our tanks, then the PH in the tank will continue to go up.

This does not happen with ADA I believe, so what is it that they are missing?

You would think they would have taken this into consideration when they attempted to manufactur a soil for crystal shrimps which they know need PH 6.6-6.8 They had to factor in that not all city water is the same PH and some are going to be higher than others, yet they seem to have dropped the ball on this one! 

I don't do a lot of water changes in my tanks because I test for ammonia on a constant basis and if there is none, I only top up (little bit) of water so the filters dont run dry on me. 

IF you are doing 20% or less every week I can see that you will be upping your PH on a regular basis, and according to Hagen that will bring the PH back up to 7.6, making the soil useless for breeding crystal shrimps. OK for Neos and Tigers etc, but not for Crystal shrimps.


----------



## Beijing08

It happens with all active soils. ADA AS is among the top because of it's ability to buffer the water back down despite the higher kH. I guess Fluval really isn't up to par...switching to something else next time.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Common what did you guys expect? There are over 2 dozen brand Premium names of subs on the asian market. Now here comes fluval with the US version (comparable as if manchuwok, or mandarine is considered chinese food, or that super market sushi is real sushi) fluval is a crappy brand, and as much as I loved the Edge though they couldn't even manage a proper lighting system, it's the Ford of the aquarium world.

the obvious indication was the small size of the granules. Fluval strat is a low quality sub to begin with designed duration of only 2 months and 4 with ro water. If you look at ada it's designed for 6 months on tap and over a year with r/o. Lesson, don't buy US brands. If you want something more then get GEX from Frank.


----------



## Jung

so even with the expensive ADA sub, it will still need replacing? Wouldn't it be cheaper to use RO water? not to mention the hassle with replacing the substrate.


----------



## RONY11

Guys I'm starting to cycle a new tank tomorrow. Already bought Fluval stratum (green 4kgs bag) I'm adding powersand underneath. This is a 48 litres tank. Has anyone used this soil with shrimps like blue tigers or crs ?


----------



## igor.kanshyn

RONY11 said:


> Guys I'm starting to cycle a new tank tomorrow. Already bought Fluval stratum (green 4kgs bag) I'm adding powersand underneath. This is a 48 litres tank. Has anyone used this soil with shrimps like blue tigers or crs ?


I'm sorry for disappoint you, but green bag is not a right one for that kind of shrimps. Green bagged substrate is lowering pH just a little.
Half-red bags called Fluval Shrimp Stratus substrate work better.
Try to replace your bag to that Shrimp substrate.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

RONY11 said:


> Guys I'm starting to cycle a new tank tomorrow. Already bought Fluval stratum (green 4kgs bag) I'm adding powersand underneath. This is a 48 litres tank. Has anyone used this soil with shrimps like blue tigers or crs ?


Like igor said the green bag is for plants. IMO you should wait a few days for Aqua Inspirations to get the netlea. They are the authorized dealer here in toronto and they cost 36 for a 9L bag I believe. This is on the same level as ADA and shouldast over a year depending on water changes. I'm really excited about it and gonna grab a bag next week.


----------



## RONY11

igor.kanshyn said:


> I'm sorry for disappoint you, but green bag is not a right one for that kind of shrimps. Green bagged substrate is lowering pH just a little.
> Half-red bags called Fluval Shrimp Stratus substrate work better.
> Try to replace your bag to that Shrimp substrate.


Igor does this substrate cause harm to the shrimps coz I'm planning a well planted aquarium. Therefore I chose this substrate. I'll be using 50% RO 
so lowering the PH wont be a big proble I'll have to be close to PH 7.00


----------



## ShrimpieLove

RONY11 said:


> Guys I'm starting to cycle a new tank tomorrow. Already bought Fluval stratum (green 4kgs bag) I'm adding powersand underneath. This is a 48 litres tank. Has anyone used this soil with shrimps like blue tigers or crs ?


I keep My oebts and regular tiger at ph7.6 or so, regular tap water/gravel... and some people keep tigers at lower ph too, so ph7.0 should be ok for them Id think if they are acclimated to it... My oebts are breeding but not as many babies survive I find, I have some babies that matured but not as many as with normal shrimps so maybe in a lower ph the survival rate might be better-but I dont know for sure...If I remember correct I think Igor had some oebt in the fluval shrimp stratum and they were breeding too...


----------



## Chris S

Just to chime in here in regards to all this talk of pH:

It doesn't really matter what "magic" pH lowering product you are using - if you don't understand the fundamentals of how pH works, you won't understand what is going on. From reading this thread, too many of you don't seem to grasp the basics of controlling your pH and seem to be quick to blame the product itself.

Everytime you add new water to your tank, especially from the tap water, you are increasing the KH in the tank, therefore increasing the buffering capacity of the water. Everytime you top off evaporated water, you are increasing the kH of your tank.

The only way you can avoid this is by using pure RO water, which it sounds like none of you do. RO should have a TDS reading of 0-3, and for all intents have a KH of 0. The pH of RO water doesn't really mean anything, because there is nothing buffering it (or keeping it stable). Add a small amount of base or acid to RO and you can see the pH swing like crazy.

In essence, the KH of your water controls your pH level. So while your KH increases, so does the buffering capacity of your water, and in the end, your pH will continue to rise.

There is no magic product that can circumvent this. Simply, if you want to play with your pH, you need to use RO water.

Hope this helps some


----------



## srolls

Chris S said:


> Just to chime in here in regards to all this talk of pH:
> 
> It doesn't really matter what "magic" pH lowering product you are using - if you don't understand the fundamentals of how pH works, you won't understand what is going on. From reading this thread, too many of you don't seem to grasp the basics of controlling your pH and seem to be quick to blame the product itself.
> 
> Everytime you add new water to your tank, especially from the tap water, you are increasing the KH in the tank, therefore increasing the buffering capacity of the water. Everytime you top off evaporated water, you are increasing the kH of your tank.
> 
> The only way you can avoid this is by using pure RO water, which it sounds like none of you do. RO should have a TDS reading of 0-3, and for all intents have a KH of 0. The pH of RO water doesn't really mean anything, because there is nothing buffering it (or keeping it stable). Add a small amount of base or acid to RO and you can see the pH swing like crazy.
> 
> In essence, the KH of your water controls your pH level. So while your KH increases, so does the buffering capacity of your water, and in the end, your pH will continue to rise.
> 
> There is no magic product that can circumvent this. Simply, if you want to play with your pH, you need to use RO water.
> 
> Hope this helps some


yup Chris is right! I have been using Shrimp fluval for about 4 month now my ph is at 6.4 with RO DI and 6.6 - 6.8 ph with 50%tap and 50% RO but is cause ph swing and unstable lots of my shrimplet dead becuz of this so now i only top off my tanks every week with RO DI and my CRS are breeding like crazy and better Survival rate.

here some Pics of my shrimplets


HTML:


http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21682


----------



## Guest

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Like igor said the green bag is for plants. IMO you should wait a few days for Aqua Inspirations to get the netlea. They are the authorized dealer here in toronto and they cost 36 for a 9L bag I believe. This is on the same level as ADA and shouldast over a year depending on water changes. I'm really excited about it and gonna grab a bag next week.


Over a year in Toronto tap water? I doubt it. It would have to contain quite a bit of sulfur or similar element/compound to keep the pH as low as it claims with the pH and buffering capacity of our limestone based lake water. Hagen's whole testing and claims for their substrate were based on water conditions closer to neutral where water changing wouldn't have depleted all the acidifying additives so quickly. You live in this area you have to deal with the water out of that tap as it is. You must alter the water (R/O) before it reaches the tank if you want keep the pH low. Even tanks that are filtered with multiple stages of peat pellet filtration will experience a pH bounce back within a relatively short period of time with out the addition of mineral poor and R/O filtered replacement water. That's why they produce better quantity and quality of acid loving crustaceans in areas that have mineral deficient tap water like Vancouver. There's not much any substrate (Netlea or others) can do long term in Toronto tap water... some longer than others but not long term.


----------



## Cypher

Soil/ substrates are never meant to be the sole source of acidity in an aquarium ... especially with all the hard water found in Ontario. If you want consistently low ph in your tank you should also be using other things to help bring your ph down to where you want it. 1) treat water in peat moss first or... 2) use peat pellets in a sachet inside your filter 3) use RO. If you don't want the brownish/ tea/ tan look I would recommend using methods 2 and 3 in conjunction with what ever low ph soil you chose to use. Even ADA soil (which I used in Singapore) will not retain a consistently low ph in your aquarium over the course of a year.


----------



## arc

It's a shame we can't use straight tap water for breeding certain shrimps like Vancouver does but as mentioned, there are ways around it. I lived in Guelph for a while and remembered a kh of 15 and gh over 20 so it's not so bad in Toronto 

Although the Fluval stuff didn't work for long, at least we know it now.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

Currently I'm using RO water with CO2 and my ph is stable at 6.6

Btw does anybody know what the ph and gh or pure ro water should be?


----------



## Chris S

pH is likely "7", but it doesn't really mean much since it is not buffered at all.

kH should be "0" and gH should be "0"


----------



## Beijing08

*Here you go. Quoting directly from ADA Japan website  i.e. Chris is absolutely correct
*

Note 2:
When tap water is left for a while, the water condition generally becomes mildly alkaline as CO2 dissolved in the water is released to the air and pH level goes up (Original pH level of the tap water fluctuates with carbonate hardness (KH) level of the water). By conducting aeration, CO2 dissolved in the aquarium water is also released to the air and pH level rises (usually the water becomes mildly alkaline). When using Amazonias with its own pH level from 6.6 to 6.8, the pH level of water does not get lower because they perform poorly on reducing the pH level, and depending on the usage condition of them, water may become mildly alkaline with pH level around 7.5 which is the same level when aeration was done with tap water left for a while. Therefore, in case of using tap water with high carbonate hardness (KH) or commercially available filtration media such as activated carbon which has a property of raising pH level, with the exception of ADA NA Carbon, please note that pH level of aquarium water may get even higher.

Note, however, that the difference between a good substrate and a crappy one, no doubt lies in its ability to keep the desired condition longer. e.g. Fluval is a low-end product, therefore it wears out immediately without RO water. While ADA is possibly among the top, there are other brands in Japan such as Master Soil, Aqua System Project Soil and Breeder's Soil, that can easily match or even exceed ADA's capacity.


----------



## bettaforu

Well I checked my crystal tank again yesterday because I wanted to see what the difference was, now its at 6.6 again  I did put more plants in the water and upped the bubbles on the sponge filter, so maybe that had something to do with it. Who kinows! I still like this soil and have not had any DOA's associated with it, so I am going to continue to use it.

My other main CRS tank has this soil in it and the CRS are breeding very well, babies are growing like crazy, so whatever it does its working for them, I am not going to change it now. 

They wouldn't breed for me with flourite, sand, pea gravel, or aquasoil, only with this fluval stuff, so I guess I will stick with what works for me.


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

bettaforu said:


> Well I checked my crystal tank again yesterday because I wanted to see what the difference was, now its at 6.6 again  I did put more plants in the water and upped the bubbles on the sponge filter, so maybe that had something to do with it. Who knows! I still like this soil and have not had any DOA's associated with it, so I am going to continue to use it.
> 
> My other main CRS tank has this soil in it and the CRS are breeding very well, babies are growing like crazy, so whatever it does its working for them, I am not going to change it now.
> 
> They wouldn't breed for me with flourite, sand, pea gravel, or aquasoil, only with this fluval stuff, so I guess I will stick with what works for me.


Your absolutely right Betta, stick with what works. My understanding now is that the shrimps love stability in the water, especially old water. By old water I mean w/c as less as possible and you will see lots of tiny micro life on the glass which are more sensitive then shrimps so use them as the proverbial canary in the coal mine.

My only only point was that although fluval does work it's like going to the grocery store and buying the "Mr. Noodle" brand when there are all these korean, japanese, chinese, Authentic brands of spicy, chicken, seafood, beef flavors of instant noodle. Haha this was the best analogy I could come up with being Asian myself.

Anyways just keep using R/O and if it's heavily planted which sucks up all the no3 you barely even need w/c, just top ups. It'll probably last over 6 months, just cross your swimmerettes


----------



## Jung

ada aquaoil is too difficult to locate, so I'm thinking of just going with this fluval stuff with RO water. 

Can someone tell me where I can find this stuff in GTA besides AI. Does Menagerie carry it?


----------



## menagerie

Jung said:


> ada aquaoil is too difficult to locate, so I'm thinking of just going with this fluval stuff with RO water.
> 
> Can someone tell me where I can find this stuff in GTA besides AI. Does Menagerie carry it?


yes, we do


----------



## igor.kanshyn

Ok, here is some of my numbers.

I have three tanks with fluval shrimp stratum. They are 10 gallons and they have 3-4 kg of substrate in each. Tanks are 3 and 4 months old.

KH there is 1-2d
ph is 6.8-7.0 during night (when light is off)
and 7.4-7.6 during day (light is on, plants are growing)

I have moderate amount of plants in each tank. 

I started changing water in tanks using 'filtered water'. It's not RO, but it's quite clean. It has zero KH.

I have been explaining so big difference in Ph by extra O2 and lack of CO2 that appear during the day. And it makes sense.

At the same time a tank with ADA soil has similar KH and GH, but pH is always about 6.4 there. It has plants as those Fluval substrate tanks. 

I did not worry about that pH swings for some time. But I see that crystal and tiger babies are not surviving now. They are disappearing.
It was better several months before when Fluval stratum kept pH below 7.0 all the time.
I even lost several adult shrimps recently. And it's not single death in ADA soil tank so far.

So, I guess that floating pH is not so harmless.

I also have another theory that I can't prove  Fluval stratum might started releasing ammonia or something else and it affects shrimps badly. I can't read ammonia in tanks, but tests are not so accurate.

Ideas?


----------



## igor.kanshyn

*Netlea Shrimp soil*

I just got Netlea Shrimp soil today.
I will try how it works.


----------



## matti2uude

Thanks Igor! That is an excellent observation about the Ph swings. I'll have to start testing my tanks at both times now too. Have you thought about adding Co2 during the day only to stabilize this from happening?


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

igor.kanshyn said:


> I just got Netlea Shrimp soil today.
> I will try how it works.


Did you get the shrimp soil or the plant soil?

I got the shrimp soil and it's already down to 6.8 from 7.6..still dropping.


----------



## igor.kanshyn

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Did you get the shrimp soil or the plant soil?
> 
> I got the shrimp soil and it's already down to 6.8 from 7.6..still dropping.


I've got a shrimp soil.


----------



## ShrimpieLove

Ok Im going to make the trip to get some RO water, not sure if its RO or DI or what, ill see when I get there ... 
Im using the fluval shrimp soil with tap water but the shrimps must like how it is cause i just got my first berried crs the other day  but eventually the soil is going to get totally worn out so if I use RO it should last longer
I have no idea how to add/use RO though so I may need some help from everyone on how to do that, if ill need to add minerals or what, if i should do ro or ro/tap water etc. Ill test the tank water and the ro water first and put my parameters up here before adding anything so I can get everyones advice


----------



## igor.kanshyn

RO water should help, try it.

Note that you should not have a pure RO water in a tank.
It should be mixed with tap water to make it not pure clear, but soft water.

If you just change some water in your tank, you can add pure RO water, it will be mixed with water you have and make it's softer.

In a long run, it's better to enrich RO water. And not just with some unknown chemicals from you tap, but with useful minerals from Mosura Mineral Plus or Mosura Rich Water or Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder. You can also use mineral rocks and mineral powder. I used KOI clay and I saw that it increase KH more that GH.

I can't tell how exactly they will influence to GH and KH, but the idea is maintain some GH and do not increase KH too much. GH 4-6d is good for your shrimps. KH 0-2d should not bring pH up, which is also good as well.

It's very brief, give it a try


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

my ph is still at 7.0 after a w/c 2 days ago, which is 4 days in total now, so I'm a little disappointed with the results.
I suppose it could have been I bought the wrong soil and should of got the plant sub. I was expecting at least 6.4 like the demo in the cup freeman had. 
Maybe I bought the wrong soil and should of went with the plant one, I dunno.
Igor, whats your take on the matter?


----------



## Beijing08

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> my ph is still at 7.0 after a w/c 2 days ago, which is 4 days in total now, so I'm a little disappointed with the results.
> I suppose it could have been I bought the wrong soil and should of got the plant sub. I was expecting at least 6.4 like the demo in the cup freeman had.
> Maybe I bought the wrong soil and should of went with the plant one, I dunno.
> Igor, whats your take on the matter?


why don't we start another thread about the Netlea...
http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=180091#post180091


----------



## RoryM

This is not promising news about the netlea. F_ck it I should just move to B.C where they got acidic water.


----------



## Alexpatrascu

Well my tap come at pH 7.1 and I keep it easily at 6.7 with the CO2.

The KH and GH are a little bit(6 & 12) high but I'll start usind 50/50 RO/tap for my water changes from now on.

My RO is 7.0, KH 0, GH 0

Offtopic: how much time should it take to chage 4-5 gal of water in a 25 gal tank with the drip method ?!?

I'll be using a 5 gal bucket with 50/50 RO/tap and a MaxiJet 400 powerhead attached to a hose that has a valve !!!


----------



## camboy012406

igor.kanshyn said:


> Ok, here is some of my numbers.
> 
> I have three tanks with fluval shrimp stratum. They are 10 gallons and they have 3-4 kg of substrate in each. Tanks are 3 and 4 months old.
> 
> KH there is 1-2d
> ph is 6.8-7.0 during night (when light is off)
> and 7.4-7.6 during day (light is on, plants are growing)
> 
> I have moderate amount of plants in each tank.
> 
> I started changing water in tanks using 'filtered water'. It's not RO, but it's quite clean. It has zero KH.
> 
> I have been explaining so big difference in Ph by extra O2 and lack of CO2 that appear during the day. And it makes sense.
> 
> At the same time a tank with ADA soil has similar KH and GH, but pH is always about 6.4 there. It has plants as those Fluval substrate tanks.
> 
> I did not worry about that pH swings for some time. But I see that crystal and tiger babies are not surviving now. They are disappearing.
> It was better several months before when Fluval stratum kept pH below 7.0 all the time.
> I even lost several adult shrimps recently. And it's not single death in ADA soil tank so far.
> 
> So, I guess that floating pH is not so harmless.
> 
> I also have another theory that I can't prove  Fluval stratum might started releasing ammonia or something else and it affects shrimps badly. I can't read ammonia in tanks, but tests are not so accurate.
> 
> Ideas?


so all your babies did not survive at all?


----------



## camboy012406

igor where did you bought the koi clay??


----------



## srolls

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> my ph is still at 7.0 after a w/c 2 days ago, which is 4 days in total now, so I'm a little disappointed with the results.
> I suppose it could have been I bought the wrong soil and should of got the plant sub. I was expecting at least 6.4 like the demo in the cup freeman had.
> Maybe I bought the wrong soil and should of went with the plant one, I dunno.
> Igor, whats your take on the matter?


i'm using netlea shrimp soil too first day my Ph went down to 6.6 and secord day it went down to 6.0 and today just check it again its at 6.0


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

srolls said:


> i'm using netlea shrimp soil too first day my Ph went down to 6.6 and secord day it went down to 6.0 and today just check it again its at 6.0


Did you rinse it once or do a water change?


----------



## srolls

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Did you rinse it once or do a water change?


nope i didnt rinse it or do water change i just put half of the bag in the tank with Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Mosura BT-9


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

srolls said:


> nope i didnt rinse it or do water change i just put half of the bag in the tank with Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Mosura BT-9


Interesting because my water was around 6.4 ph until I did a water change then stay above 7. Now I've restirred the soil so I'll see if that'll help.


----------



## srolls

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Interesting because my water was around 6.4 ph until I did a water change then stay above 7. Now I've restirred the soil so I'll see if that'll help.


are u using tap water or RO water? to do your water change


----------



## CrystalMethShrimp

srolls said:


> are u using tap water or RO water? to do your water change


tap now my ph wont go below 7.0

maybe it's our water here in T.o thats the problem?


----------



## bettaforu

I just setup 3 of my new custom nano tanks with Fluval stratum again and after 2 days the PH is 6.6....my older tanks are still holding again at 6.6-6.8 since December. My tap water is 7.6

I think it works better in the smaller tanks than in a bigger one. I am still going to stick with the Fluval as my shrimps are all breeding in it good for me


----------



## laurahmm

Hi guys, 

Was wondering if there was any more information on the Netlea soil? Thanks so much. 

Laura


----------



## Jedidiah

Hi guys,

If anyone's still looking, there's a store called Pet Culture or Hagen's Pets in Stouffville. Maybe 10 minutes north of Markham on hwy 48, then go east on Stouffville road. Right beside Shopper's drugmart and the LCBO.

They specialize in hagen products (fluval stuff) and carry an assortment of fish/shrimp stuff/reptiles etc.

There's two owners, Scott and his wife. Don't even bother dealing with Scott, guys a ****, IMHO. Doesn't seem to care about customers, just in it for the money.

Two steady staff (atleast whenever I go by), Jenn and Georgina. Jenn rocks. Georgina has been known to lie for sales, same with Jeff and Scott.

Great store if you catch Jen. She'll even special order stuff in! Great service!

Just my experience though. I hate places that emphasize the sales over service... 

They've got the shrimp soil and the planted soil (lots last time I was in). And the shrimp/plant tanks that come with the soils too.

905-642-2525 if anyone wants their number.

The only other 'big' store I've been to that I like as much is the Big Al's on younge/steeles. Emmanuel, Andrew and (bald dude, assnt mngr, tall, skinny, goatee, can't remember his name) Have all been awesome to me there too! Didn't like the fish guys there till I met Andrew one day.


----------



## Greg_o

I honestly can't figure out if you're bashing this store or promoting them?!


----------



## Jedidiah

lol neither really! Just sharing my experience.

They are not my favorite place to shop, but when I cant find something that I know I've seen carried by a hagen store, I drop by. Been getting my dog food there too, acana. Best price around! or that I've found... cheaper than global.

They're just my local pet store. There's pet value, global, and for fish there's meyer's and hagen pets or pet culture.... w/e they're called now.

Just thought I'd mention them because last time I was in, they had a ton of the shrimp stuff, and planted... maybe I shouldn't have said so much! 

EDIT: PS, I'm not a hagen fan. I've lost more shrimp on nutrafin than any other food I've used. I've used a fluval 205 for years and it was good. I've had other filters too. Most of my experience with them is their stuff is cheap and breaks quickly. But that's not what we're talking about here. Their new nano plant and shrimp tank stuff caught my attention. Specially with those lil co2 bottles they've brought out! And those 'Gx's look pretty sweet, but I wouldn't touch them for their price.


----------



## alexxa

in short, fluval shrimp is a good subrate if used with RO water?


----------



## bigfishy

alexxa said:


> in short, fluval shrimp is a good subrate if used with RO water?


Should be, that's what I am doing right now!


----------



## alexxa

any updates on this substrate?


----------



## splur

Interesting, thanks for doing this. I'm considering getting this and weighing it with getting the ADA/Netlea.


----------



## alexxa

i dont know if i should get fluval or netlea. I use pure water from my kitchen.
Is netlea granules larger than fluval shrimp?


----------



## igor.kanshyn

alexxa said:


> Is netlea granules larger than fluval shrimp?


Yes, and it's more rigid. Will last longer before it breaks down.


----------



## camboy012406

alexxa said:


> i dont know if i should get fluval or netlea. I use pure water from my kitchen.
> Is netlea granules larger than fluval shrimp?


well its not necesarry to buy one of those expensive substrate. I know some breeder from other forum succesfully breeds crs/cbs using white sand as a substrate
here


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## Alexpatrascu

camboy012406 said:


> well its not necesarry to buy one of those expensive substrate. I know some breeder from other forum succesfully breeds crs/cbs using white sand as a substrate


Does he keeps the pH to 6.4-6.8 in any way ?!?!


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## CrystalMethShrimp

Alexpatrascu said:


> Does he keeps the pH to 6.4-6.8 in any way ?!?!


You can use sand, gravel, potting soil, your mama's slippers w/e so long as you maintain the parameters they like.

ph 6.4-6.6
kh 0-2
gh 4-6

low TDS

buying "expensive" shrimp soil makes this job much easier.
You dont have to use co2 or peat/leaves which stains the water yellow.

Just know that each crs that dies even babies is $5 down the toilet. So in the end are you really saving that much by not buying shrimp soil?

keep in mind also that our water is different from others.
In vancouver you can have a tank with no substrate at all bc the water maintains perfect parameters.


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## Alexpatrascu

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> Just know that each crs that dies even babies is $5 down the toilet. So in the end are you really saving that much by not buying shrimp soil?


Touche !!!



CrystalMethShrimp said:


> In vancouver you can have a tank with no substrate at all bc the water maintains perfect parameters.


Let's move there...any1 ?!?!?


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## camboy012406

well, speaking of water ph. I have succesfully breed crs/cbs/bluebee with ph of 7.5


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## Alexpatrascu

And then again....


CrystalMethShrimp said:


> You need shrimp soil to bring the ph around 6.6 ideally. Many have them breeding in tap water at 7.6 ph. To me that is like taking a person from sea level then forcing them to live near the base of Mt. Kilimanjaor. They will eventually adapt to the thin air but it isn't healthy for their body and will probably reduce their life expectancy. A bag of ada or netlea is only $40 and will last you a long time especially in a small tank.


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## CrystalMethShrimp

camboy012406 said:


> well, speaking of water ph. I have succesfully breed crs/cbs/bluebee with ph of 7.5


You've been very successful with that Cam and congratulations. Now many people can. 
I've recently been taught a method of breeding them in alkaline water of around 8.6 ph.

Would I do it?
probably not, b/c you'll have lower survival rates of babies. 
Cam have you ever considered that your population of crs could of been 15-30% larger if you had used r/o water with a ph of 6.5?

Would your crs (acclimated to 7.6ph) do well if you sold them to other crs breeders who have tanks of 6.5?


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## camboy012406

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> You've been very successful with that Cam and congratulations. Now many people can.
> I've recently been taught a method of breeding them in alkaline water of around 8.6 ph.
> 
> Would I do it?
> probably not, b/c you'll have lower survival rates of babies.
> Cam have you ever considered that your population of crs could of been 15-30% larger if you had used r/o water with a ph of 6.5?
> 
> Would your crs (acclimated to 7.6ph) do well if you sold them to other crs breeders who have tanks of 6.5?


it would be great if they buy from me coz they dont need to worry about buying expensive substrate coz all of my shrimps are already adopted in tapwater ph of 7.6


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## arktixan

I just purchased the Fluval Ebi Shrimp today, loving it alrdy.
My fire reds have alrdy molted, and 3 of em saddled... 

I got a 2kg package from PJs Square one, for $16.82 in my 10g tank, I feel it's enough, kinda glad I didn't for for the 4kg..

Current PH was 7.4
Will test tmrw, after work.


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## igor.kanshyn

camboy012406 said:


> it would be great if they buy from me coz they dont need to worry about buying expensive substrate coz all of my shrimps are already adopted in tapwater ph of 7.6


I thought that you had ADA soil in your tanks.


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## solarz

I am considering changing the substrate of my Dymax IQ3 to Fluval Shrimp Stratum, mainly because it's the only one sold in small quantities.

Since the IQ3 is only ~2 gals, I plan to use distilled or R/O water from grocery stores. How long can I expect the substrate to keep the pH buffering?

The IQ3 has been runing for 7 months now. If I only change the substrate, how quickly can I start introducing CRS to it? I imagine that it will undergo only a mini-cycle, since the filter media will still contain a lot of bacteria.


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## Jedidiah

Greg_o said:


> I honestly can't figure out if you're bashing this store or promoting them?!


I've had some more bad experiences.... I will not support this store at all. Having one 'good' worker isn't enough for me to support them.

Georgina can't even test my water... not for lack of tools, for lack of knowledge... and is too lazy to RTFM to help me!!
And still lies to my face!

It's always a mess lately too, and there's lots of deads in their tanks... that don't get pulled.... tanks aren't well maintained... animals with no water or food, and poop everywhere...
I've seen her literally sleeping and drinking when I've come in.

It is kinda humorous, but I've never worked anywhere where it's allowed...

I don't want to rant and bash, but I am boycotting this store now....
Russian roulette with shopping there.

I do not support it, and will not be going back.
Sorry for even suggesting it guys.

Does the SPCA take care of little critters? lol

On a good note, I just discovered Franks Aquarium in Markham. He was good, gave good prices and honest service, and even gave a discount... and is willing to special order. New favorite store  He was incredibly busy though, and only saw him working. He's almost as busy as wallmart! 
http://franksaquarium.ca/

Also, anyone else having trouble with the Shrimp substrate turning powdery? Any time I'm planting/pruning, it ends up mucking up my tank. Takes awhile for the dirt to get off the leaves.


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## Greg_o

Franks is truly one of a kind and always a treat to talk to!


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