# Cannot live with it cannot live without it -GBR pair



## lili

Silly little fishes. The male is chasing the female again. I tried separate them they look for each other and lose colors. I put the together again, chasing ... chasing.
What can I do to help the female ? Don't say divider. They just try to reach eachother through it.
Oh, troublesome GBRs.
L


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## Chris S

They are sometimes picky, so perhaps you can try swapping your male in for a male somewhere.

I also feel obliged to ask, are you sure they are not both males or females? =P


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## lili

Chris Stewart said:


> They are sometimes picky, so perhaps you can try swapping your male in for a male somewhere.
> 
> I also feel obliged to ask, are you sure they are not both males or females? =P


They already had a se of eggs and ate them after 4 days. They are a "pair" already.
They live in a 20g alone with lots of hidding places. I have to feed the female somehow so I put my other hand in the tank so the male won't get closer. They know already the procedure .... exhausting for me.
The male is cleaning a nest (he choosed one) but the female is not ready for it though she is plump and pinkysh.
Should I put a divider ... still ?
L


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## Chris S

Well, hopefully Pablo or Wilson can share their views.

I have two pairs of rams in a 46g that are both paired off and I never really see much aggression towards their own pair. When they are spawning, they seem to become much more aggressive (and colourful!), but never to each other, rather towards the other pair or the other community fish.

Not sure what your setup looks like or what else is in there, but maybe a distraction will help, such as some small tetras. I have a small school of dwarf rainbows in with them and they spend more time chasing them away then fighting each other (even though they still have their little battles, which is fun to watch).

I have also read somewhere (but never noticed myself) that sometimes a "pair" of rams will "split up" when they aren't spawning. Do you notice if the female has lost most of her colour etc.? If this holds true, perhaps they are temporarily not paired.

Sorry I can't help more.


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## lili

Chris Stewart said:


> Well, hopefully Pablo or Wilson can share their views.
> 
> I have two pairs of rams in a 46g that are both paired off and I never really see much aggression towards their own pair. When they are spawning, they seem to become much more aggressive (and colourful!), but never to each other, rather towards the other pair or the other community fish.
> 
> Not sure what your setup looks like or what else is in there, but maybe a distraction will help, such as some small tetras. I have a small school of dwarf rainbows in with them and they spend more time chasing them away then fighting each other (even though they still have their little battles, which is fun to watch).
> 
> I have also read somewhere (but never noticed myself) that sometimes a "pair" of rams will "split up" when they aren't spawning. Do you notice if the female has lost most of her colour etc.? If this holds true, perhaps they are temporarily not paired.
> 
> Sorry I can't help more.


It makes a lot of sense what you say. Before the 20g were they are alone the GBRs used to be in another 20g highly populated. They seemed to get along better there. Do they need company ? Some neons might help ? But I don't want the neons to be stressed all the time either.
Let me know.
L


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## Pablo

Chris Stewart said:


> Well, hopefully Pablo or Wilson can share their views.
> 
> I have two pairs of rams in a 46g that are both paired off and I never really see much aggression towards their own pair. When they are spawning, they seem to become much more aggressive (and colourful!), but never to each other, rather towards the other pair or the other community fish.
> 
> Not sure what your setup looks like or what else is in there, but maybe a distraction will help, such as some small tetras. I have a small school of dwarf rainbows in with them and they spend more time chasing them away then fighting each other (even though they still have their little battles, which is fun to watch).
> 
> I have also read somewhere (but never noticed myself) that sometimes a "pair" of rams will "split up" when they aren't spawning. Do you notice if the female has lost most of her colour etc.? If this holds true, perhaps they are temporarily not paired.
> 
> Sorry I can't help more.


Mikrogeophagus pair bonds are very hollywood... Nothing's forever and it usually isn't very good when its at its best.

Two pairs of rams, or either species, with anything less than five feet of no-man's land between them isn't going to work out.

In my experience the ideal setup includes individual territories at either end for an individual ram with the spawning environment in the middle.

That's not necessary mind you, but generally having two pairs doesn't work terrifically with these fish.

If you have Bolivians, what you may find eventually happens down the road is you end up with one pair- perhaps from a cross between the two you have now- and two fish that are too frightened and too bullied to mate with anybody.

If you have Bolivians you can stroke their egos and put them into a much more passive and happy state of mind by keeping their tank very very dimly lit- they despise bright light., and having a couple of almond leaves (not too many) on the bottom for them to kick around. They love looking for food under them and they look like they get a real sense of accomplishment if they find it. I used to hide mysis shrimp to make them happy...


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## Brian

In my experience with keeping GBR's is that when they fight, it is for show and usually no harm is done. I had kept 3 pairs of GBR's in a densely planted 20gal and had no problems... besides the squabbles between the pairs opposed to between each other.


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## Chris S

Yikes, really Brian?

That really seems pushing it. I find my 46g is BARELY enough space for the two pairs. They each have their side of the tank and the middle is usually no-man's land.

Mine actually just spawned a few days back, and it is nice to see some babies still kicking around. Great parents, I have to say.

As for the fighting, I don't think they really do much physical harm to each other, but for them to be "on guard" all the time will, I think, really stress them out.


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## Brian

Yeah, 2 pairs were raising fry simultaneously without any major squabbles. Usually just consisted of chasing out of the spawn site, never any torn fins.

I moved all 3 pairs to a 90gal later but I had kept them in the 20gal since they were juvies and never had any problems.


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## Pablo

Chris Stewart said:


> Yikes, really Brian?
> 
> That really seems pushing it. I find my 46g is BARELY enough space for the two pairs. They each have their side of the tank and the middle is usually no-man's land.
> 
> Mine actually just spawned a few days back, and it is nice to see some babies still kicking around. Great parents, I have to say.
> 
> As for the fighting, I don't think they really do much physical harm to each other, but for them to be "on guard" all the time will, I think, really stress them out.


it depends on the layout- Ive seen some stock lists in super complex planted layouts that actually lived peacefully but would've murdered eachother in an open tank.


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## Brian

True, I've seen a 35 gal with PVC T's all over the bottom of the tank and it had like 15 GBR's in it.


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## Pablo

Brian said:


> True, I've seen a 35 gal with PVC T's all over the bottom of the tank and it had like 15 GBR's in it.


Well in that case you end up with a swarm of rams and they wont be territorial.

You can put 20 convicts in a small enough space that they won't fight.

This behaviour is observed in the wild frequently with new world cichlids.

For example, in the wild L. curviceps, which are VICIOUS to eachother when sparsely populated, say, 2 pairs to a 55 with little cover, will actually swim together in swarms from place to place, and they will tail stand with their backs to eachother in a circle to defend themselves from threats. Once they get to the new area they pair off and will murder eachother if need be.


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## lili

Thank you all for replies.
The 20g long they are in is planted and has 2 malaysian wood pieces and 2 pots and one vase and a castle and 2 bubblers ..... lots of hidding places.
Finaly the female took over one side of the tank and the male it looks like gives her a break when she goes there. If he does not see her for too long he gets bored and plays with the bubbler then goes looking for her. He has amazing colors and very blue lips .... cute. She is not displaying colors anymore but the pink tummy and when she is tired of chasing acts like it swimms on one side and a weird dance with the tail .... swimming backwards ... cannor explain that . I still have to make sure she eats .... They've learned that I'll send him away when feeding her ....
The other pair I have it's a big male and a very young female that laid eggs once. The male is busy chasing the baby green neons and gives the female a break. But soon I'll have to remove the neons because they are not growing enough.
Thanks,
L


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## Brian

Actually, most of the pairs would stay in their own T and defend it from any ram that would pass by 



Pablo said:


> Well in that case you end up with a swarm of rams and they wont be territorial.
> 
> You can put 20 convicts in a small enough space that they won't fight.
> 
> This behaviour is observed in the wild frequently with new world cichlids.
> 
> For example, in the wild L. curviceps, which are VICIOUS to eachother when sparsely populated, say, 2 pairs to a 55 with little cover, will actually swim together in swarms from place to place, and they will tail stand with their backs to eachother in a circle to defend themselves from threats. Once they get to the new area they pair off and will murder eachother if need be.


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## nightowl1350

I've put a few guppies in with my rams to provide a bit of distraction for the pair. Once mine were breeding they were fine in a 10g, but sometimes the female would get rather aggressive towards her mate. Good luck with yours.


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## lili

I added some leopard danios. Wow ! The male is ..... confused. They stick together and watch the rocket danios passing by them.


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## Pablo

lili said:


> I added some leopard danios. Wow ! The male is ..... confused. They stick together and watch the rocket danios passing by them.


Bad move.

Those fish are way too active and whippy. You'll likely never see that ram pair breed or act happy again


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## lili

Pablo said:


> Bad move.
> 
> Those fish are way too active and whippy. You'll likely never see that ram pair breed or act happy again


Ups ! I'll see how it goes and if that's the case, relocate the danios. They too hyper for me too.
Thanks.
L

I just talked to Menajerie. They will take them back.
This time I will ask : Minows or blue tetra ? Any of this are good as dither fish for the blue rams ?

Pablo ?
Thanks.
L


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## Tabatha

*White Cloud Minnows*

White Cloud Mountain Minnows are great, I just got 10. After settling in, they just causally explore the tank and interact with each other. I'd like to get the gold variety as well!

BTW, has Harold caught up with all his work yet?


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## Chris S

Newp, saw him last Wednesday, which was his first day back.

He is going to be busy with inventory and catching up for a month probably 

As for tetras, I think their demeanor is great with rams, but I think I am really regretting having them in the tank.

They look great etc., but they seem to be eating my ram fry! I'm not breeding the rams intentionally, but I'd like to try and grow a few out at one point and I think to do this, I will really have to take them out of the community tank.


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## Tabatha

Chris Stewart said:


> They look great etc., but they seem to be eating my ram fry! I'm not breeding the rams intentionally, but I'd like to try and grow a few out at one point and I think to do this, I will really have to take them out of the community tank.


I know what you mean! I was absolutely shocked when I saw our cardinals and harlequins mowing down on guppy fry! I had no idea!


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## lili

Tabatha said:


> I know what you mean! I was absolutely shocked when I saw our cardinals and harlequins mowing down on guppy fry! I had no idea!


Thanks .
So, minnows it is.
The boy:


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## Brian

I regret having tetras in my shrimp tank 

My CRS were big and berried and I havn't seen any babies for a month which is the same time they weren't berried anymore and my tetras look a lot happier 



Chris Stewart said:


> Newp, saw him last Wednesday, which was his first day back.
> 
> He is going to be busy with inventory and catching up for a month probably
> 
> As for tetras, I think their demeanor is great with rams, but I think I am really regretting having them in the tank.
> 
> They look great etc., but they seem to be eating my ram fry! I'm not breeding the rams intentionally, but I'd like to try and grow a few out at one point and I think to do this, I will really have to take them out of the community tank.


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## Tabatha

Oh lili, he's so handsome!



lili said:


> The boy:


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## Ciddian

Thats a wonderful photo


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## lili

Ciddian said:


> Thats a wonderful photo


Thanks.
Though he is a bad, bad boy. Still chasing the lady .... 
L


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