# Adding rock to aquarium



## brapbrapboom (Sep 2, 2009)

As the title says, Im a bit confused about adding another rocks to a tank. Based on what I have read..

1. clean the rock (obviously)
2. boil the rock (???)

question is, how long do i have to boil the rock? do I have to let it sit for some days? or I can just lodge it in the tank after boiling?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

I wouldn't boil it. Bleaching it will do the trick.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

The thing about boiling, is that the rock is likely to explode, some rock types are more likely than others. I'm not kidding, a little bleach is enough to clean the rock.


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

I've boiled rocks many times with no problems, seems to work well for me.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Twiggles said:


> I've boiled rocks many times with no problems, seems to work well for me.


http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-aquarium/do-not-boil-rocks-7424/
http://www.natureskills.com/stone_boiling.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2005/06/06/1385064.htm

So what happens is when you heat up a rock, any gas pockets inside the rock (if there are any), also heat up. Heating a gas causes it to expand and when the pressure from the gas is more than the normal force exerted from the rock, it explodes.

Bleach is much safer.


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

... Yeah ok sure If you leave them to boil for hours. 20-25 mins is fine, I did it yesterday and I didn't have rocks blowing up in my face.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Twiggles said:


> ... Yeah ok sure If you leave them to boil for hours. 20-25 mins is fine, I did it yesterday and I didn't have rocks blowing up in my face.


Please don't make up numbers, in all seriousness what do you think the heat capacity of a rock is and how quickly do you think kinetic energy can be transferred? There are also other factors such as where this gas pocket could be located and how much gas is inside.


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

Well in all seriousness why don't you chill ... joe. Why would assume I'm making up numbers? how many times have you boiled rocks joe?


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Twiggles said:


> Well in all seriousness why don't you chill ... joe. Why would assume I'm making up numbers? how many times have you boiled rocks joe?


I'm not trying to be aggressive, although it may seem like that. You said "for a few hours" in a previous post and "20-25 mins" in the same post.

I've boiled many rocks behind a barrier, I'm apart of my school's science club and we've heated rocks from 90-150 celcius. The 'pond rocks' are the "safest" to boil (if I can use the term safe very loosely) as they seem to have the lowest rate of cracking and explosion.

Also, personal experience is not sufficient when determining how valid something is. A few centuries back, a man named Simeon Poisson did not approve of Augustin-Jean Fresnel's theory concerning the nature of light. Poisson tried did some crazy math (which I cannot comprehend) and determined that according to Fresnel's theory, a bright spot should appear at the shadow of a circular opaque obstacle. Poisson did an experiment (which can literally be reproduced by poking 2 holes into a circular piece of cardboard and holding it so it's facing the sun) to try and falsify the theoryhe was so sloppy that he did not see a bright spot. Eventually, other physicists reproduced they experiment and did see a bright spot.


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

Joeee said:


> I'm not trying to be aggressive, although it may seem like that. You said "for a few hours" in a previous post and "20-25 mins" in the same post.


You're mistaken actually. When I said "for a few hours", I said; sure if you leave them to boil for hours ... as in yes if you left rocks to boil for long enough they probably would explode I agree with you there, I went to highschool too man. And I'm aware that rocks can be holding more gas than others, I also agree that pond rocks are the safest to boil. When I did say "20-25 mins" what I was trying to communicate was that when I do boil rocks for aquarium use I leave them to boil for 20-25 minutes, read more carefully.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Twiggles said:


> You're mistaken actually. When I said "for a few hours", I said; sure if you leave them to boil for hours ... as in yes if you left rocks to boil for long enough they probably would explode I agree with you there, I went to highschool too man. And I'm aware that rocks can be holding more gas than others, I also agree that pond rocks are the safest to boil. When I did say "20-25 mins" what I was trying to communicate was that when I do boil rocks for aquarium use I leave them to boil for 20-25 minutes, read more carefully.


The issue we are discussing right now, is what that "long enough" point is at which they would explode. For a rock to fully gain heat from water which surrounds it shouldn't take long, I estimate it to be somewhere around 12-15 minutes depending on the density of the rock and type of rock. Boiling a rock denatures the proteins of whatever bacteria is on it. There are some strains of bacteria such as anthrax in spore form (which you will probably never find on a pond rock, or anywhere else, the chance of finding it in a river is like winning the every lottery for a year) or any other bacteria in spore form that is immune to the boiling procedure. To denature proteins of more common strains of bacteria, the water must be heated to 121C for 15 minutes. My experimental results determined that the rate of explosion is rocks grows exponentially at 125 C. The problem is trying to regulate this on a cheap stove (such as the 20 year old one in my house) is that you need to use a thermometer to determine the temperature of water, it's a good thing glass explodes at around 340C (I think, not sure about the value though. Lol).
Boiling a rock for 20-25 minutes is about 5-10 minutes superfluous. Please do your research before you try and give advice. Saying that "I've done it before and so has many other people" is the Appealing to Common Practice Fallacy. It is pretty much saying "A lot of other people do it, therefore it is a valid/good method to do something." A good example of this is during Halloween where some people choose to wear contacts that they bought from Wal-Mart (such as this one: http://www.amasquerade.com/images/products/contacts/hatake_kakashi.jpg) that aren't prescription. This obviously damages a person's eye pointlessly.

Btw, multi-task win on my part. I'm jamming to Katy Perry, typing this out, and brushing my teeth at the same time.


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## brapbrapboom (Sep 2, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys! Is there any kind or brand of bleach I can use?

Also, chill guys. I know its just a lil misunderstanding  Both of you Joee and Twiggles are just helping me... But I have to say, I might just stick with the bleaching in case mom doesnt want her kitchen utensils to be used.


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## bob123 (Dec 31, 2009)

Just a question, Why are you bleaching or boiling rocks anyway? Thanks.


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## brapbrapboom (Sep 2, 2009)

To keep them clean and parasite free. Thats what I know, I might be wrong though.



bob123 said:


> Just a question, Why are you bleaching or boiling rocks anyway? Thanks.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 28, 2008)

The cheapest brand of bleach works well.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Rocks that were collected from waterways should be bleached, while rocks that came from other sources may only need a good washing. 
As far as rocks exploding, it is more likely to happen with rocks that have absorbed water, rather than gas pockets. Still, there is really no need to boil rocks, when bleach will do pretty much the same thing and a few things more. I bleach everything.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

I like to bleach my rocks with H2O2. Its not that expensive and its easy to rinse out.

Also Joeee those are some bizarre assumptions and calculations on your part lol. How are you going to boil something at 125 degrees C? I hope you have the appropriate pressure chamber or a different medium. LOL


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

Joeee said:


> The issue we are discussing right now, is what that "long enough" point is at which they would explode. For a rock to fully gain heat from water which surrounds it shouldn't take long, I estimate it to be somewhere around 12-15 minutes depending on the density of the rock and type of rock. Boiling a rock denatures the proteins of whatever bacteria is on it. There are some strains of bacteria such as anthrax in spore form (which you will probably never find on a pond rock, or anywhere else, the chance of finding it in a river is like winning the every lottery for a year) or any other bacteria in spore form that is immune to the boiling procedure. To denature proteins of more common strains of bacteria, the water must be heated to 121C for 15 minutes. My experimental results determined that the rate of explosion is rocks grows exponentially at 125 C. The problem is trying to regulate this on a cheap stove (such as the 20 year old one in my house) is that you need to use a thermometer to determine the temperature of water, it's a good thing glass explodes at around 340C (I think, not sure about the value though. Lol).
> Boiling a rock for 20-25 minutes is about 5-10 minutes superfluous. Please do your research before you try and give advice. Saying that "I've done it before and so has many other people" is the Appealing to Common Practice Fallacy. It is pretty much saying "A lot of other people do it, therefore it is a valid/good method to do something." A good example of this is during Halloween where some people choose to wear contacts that they bought from Wal-Mart (such as this one: http://www.amasquerade.com/images/products/contacts/hatake_kakashi.jpg) that aren't prescription. This obviously damages a person's eye pointlessly.
> 
> Btw, multi-task win on my part. I'm jamming to Katy Perry, typing this out, and brushing my teeth at the same time.


Quoting this for hilarity. You've done experiments to determine at what temperature rocks explode? You had a large enough sample size to determine that the rate of explosion in rocks increases exponentially at 125 degrees C? Unfortunately your argument goes against the fundamental laws of physics. You don't need a thermometer to determine the temperature of boiling water at standard pressure, its going to be 100 degrees Celsius. That's what we base the entire Celsius scale on.  Did you know that water becomes a solid at 0 Celsius? You can't raise the temperature of liquid water beyond 100 Celsius without increasing the surrounding pressure or the pressure inside the vessel. Even if you set your stove at max and the burner is able to achieve 1000 Celsius the water temperature will remain at 100 Celsius until liquid water has entirely converted to gas. The burner temperature will remain at 100 Celsius because the water is absorbing the heat even though the burner is capable of higher temperatures. On the other hand, pressure cookers will allow water to boil at a lower temperature by decreasing the pressure inside the pot through a one way valve. Water in pressure cookers can boil at 85 degrees C and will make very tender pork ribs.

At any rate, boiling some hardscape items is still a useful technique especially with driftwood or shells. If anyone is intent on boiling their rock or other hardscape items, start both the items and water at a cooler temperature and bring them to a boil together. At 100 degrees C very few rocks will explode, some rocks probably get almost this temperature just from being left in the sun. 15 minutes of boiling is probably long enough. When I clean shells that I've collected for my aquarium use I leave them at a rolling boil for about half an hour, just to help clean out all the crud on the inside.


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## Twiggles (Jun 6, 2010)

It sounds like joe's the one making up numbers ..



Darkside said:


> Quoting this for hilarity. You've done experiments to determine at what temperature rocks explode? You had a large enough sample size to determine that the rate of explosion in rocks increases exponentially at 125 degrees C? Unfortunately your argument goes against the fundamental laws of physics. You don't need a thermometer to determine the temperature of boiling water at standard pressure, its going to be 100 degrees Celsius. That's what we base the entire Celsius scale on.  Did you know that water becomes a solid at 0 Celsius? You can't raise the temperature of liquid water beyond 100 Celsius without increasing the surrounding pressure or the pressure inside the vessel. Even if you set your stove at max and the burner is able to achieve 1000 Celsius the water temperature will remain at 100 Celsius until liquid water has entirely converted to gas. The burner temperature will remain at 100 Celsius because the water is absorbing the heat even though the burner is capable of higher temperatures. On the other hand, pressure cookers will allow water to boil at a lower temperature by decreasing the pressure inside the pot through a one way valve. Water in pressure cookers can boil at 85 degrees C and will make very tender pork ribs.
> 
> At any rate, boiling some hardscape items is still a useful technique especially with driftwood or shells. If anyone is intent on boiling their rock or other hardscape items, start both the items and water at a cooler temperature and bring them to a boil together. At 100 degrees C very few rocks will explode, some rocks probably get almost this temperature just from being left in the sun. 15 minutes of boiling is probably long enough. When I clean shells that I've collected for my aquarium use I leave them at a rolling boil for about half an hour, just to help clean out all the crud on the inside.


Thank you darkside you said it perfectly.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Darkside said:


> Quoting this for hilarity. You've done experiments to determine at what temperature rocks explode? You had a large enough sample size to determine that the rate of explosion in rocks increases exponentially at 125 degrees C?


128 Basalt
68 Granite
76 Limestone
30 Quartz
46 Obsidian
58 Flint
23 Feldspar
64 Slate

I guess we didn't do ALL rocks, but we have results from fairly commonly found rocks.



Darkside said:


> Unfortunately your argument goes against the fundamental laws of physics. You don't need a thermometer to determine the temperature of boiling water at standard pressure, its going to be 100 degrees Celsius.


I haven't mentioned anything about the boiling point of water.
That's the Strawman Fallacy, where you bring up something else about the target (which may or may not exist) and focus on that. What you are arguing right now, I have not disagreed with. I have spoken about the temperature at which proteins denature, the experimental result based on my research on rocks, and the tempature at which glass explodes (which I pointed out I am uncertain):



Joeee said:


> To denature proteins of more common strains of bacteria, the water must be heated to 121C for 15 minutes





Joeee said:


> To denature proteins of more common strains of bacteria, the water must be heated to 121C for 15 minutes. My experimental results determined that the rate of explosion is rocks grows exponentially at 125 C. The problem is trying to regulate this on a cheap stove (such as the 20 year old one in my house) is that you need to use a thermometer to determine the temperature of water, it's a good thing glass explodes at around 340C


I guess I did word this a bit poorly which can be easily misinterpreted.



Joeee said:


> The problem is trying to regulate this on a cheap stove (such as the 20 year old one in my house) is that you need to use a thermometer to determine the temperature of water


Where I worded this poorly, is where I mentioned water and not water vapor, because as you pointed out, it is common knowledge that water as a liquid (assuming standard conditions for pressure) cannot excede 100C (even stoners know this: http://forums.cannabisculture.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1217686 xD)
Either way, submerging a rock in liquid water to clean it is not sufficient because of the maximum temperature of liquid water. I've mentioned above that proteins begin to denature at 121C (New information: Source - Campell, Reece, and Mitchell's Biology Textbook).

One question that I haven't done any research on that I'd like to ask the members of this forum. Because of how water companies add various chemicals to water, how much does this change the boiling temperature of water? I haven't actually tried to calculate the amount of chlorine/or chloramine in tap water.



Darkside said:


> That's what we base the entire Celsius scale on.  Did you know that water becomes a solid at 0 Celsius? You can't raise the temperature of liquid water beyond 100 Celsius without increasing the surrounding pressure or the pressure inside the vessel. Even if you set your stove at max and the burner is able to achieve 1000 Celsius the water temperature will remain at 100 Celsius until liquid water has entirely converted to gas. The burner temperature will remain at 100 Celsius because the water is absorbing the heat even though the burner is capable of higher temperatures. On the other hand, pressure cookers will allow water to boil at a lower temperature by decreasing the pressure inside the pot through a one way valve. Water in pressure cookers can boil at 85 degrees C and will make very tender pork ribs.


Irrelevent.

Last note:
I do have to apologise if I am sounding aggressive. My passion for trying to learn often comes out as aggressiveness. But who doesn't enjoy a good debate every now and then? xD


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

The entire conversation was about boiling rocks, not autoclaving them. You can't expect anyone following the conversation to make the leap in logic that you've suggested. Can you tell me how you'd heat water vapour on a stove without your vessel exploding and the vapor escaping when you put the rocks in??? LOL
With the data that you've given me (from where ever you got it) I see no support for your claim that the rate of explosions in rocks increase exponentially at 125 degrees C. You only got one rock to that temperature. Also you didn't give us any of the other parameters involved and those are important to determine your accuracy. 
As well, you should know that proteins begin to denature at a lot lower temperatures than 121 Celsius. When the proteins denature is a moot point anyway because all you need to do is disrupt the cell membrane, be it lipids or peptidoglycan or even other structures within the cells to kill them. Its not like you'll be finding extremophiles on river rock.
For your information the level of solubles in the drinking water will not alter the boiling point of water even a 1 Celsius. To change the boiling temperature you have to add a lot of solutes. I sometimes use salt in my ice baths to keep the temperature at about -18 Celsius and to do this the solution is absolutely saturated with NaCl.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Darkside said:


> The entire conversation was about boiling rocks, not autoclaving them. You can't expect anyone following the conversation to make the leap in logic that you've suggested.


I guess you're right.



Darkside said:


> Can you tell me how you'd heat water vapour on a stove without your vessel exploding and the vapor escaping when you put the rocks in??? LOL


I don't have to answer that question, you do. I'd probably try to elevate the rock and have a large amount of water and a small closeable opening in what I am steaming it with. But then again, the onus isn't on me to tell you how to safely clean a rock by using heat and water but on you. I'm not the one who picks up rocks from a body of water and cleans them to put them in my aquarium so I don't have to worry about having to do such a thing.



Darkside said:


> With the data that you've given me (from where ever you got it) I see no support for your claim that the rate of explosions in rocks increase exponentially at 125 degrees C.
> You only got one rock to that temperature. Also you didn't give us any of the other parameters involved and those are important to determine your accuracy.


Ad fidentia is the beauty of science.
I don't have the more formally written version as we did this in a group and I only bothered to keep my part (which for some reason I didn't delete when I cleaned out half of my computer files), so I might be a little off and I don't have the brand of the equipment used. Rocks were obtained through various avenues, some were Sergent-Welsh, Boreal, some science supply store located in North Carolina and another some place in the UK. Some type of oil which I do not recall was heated to various specific temperatures on a hot plate purchased through Boreal. The temperature was confirmed through the use of four thermometers bought through Boreal (the science supply thing for schools) for an exorbitant amount. Various types of rocks were put into the oil. All of this was done inside some contraption which only my arms could fit in. Something was done about pressure I think, I don't remember what.
This is one of those migraine-inducing things that you ever regret doing, my sanity has done it's best to force it out of my memory.
Of course, when I wrote this out the first time it sounded a lot better and not as half-assed and I wrote it up right after and not a year and a half later.

So far you haven't given me a value as to what temperature most rocks explode or crack. Until you do, I think I'll go by my 125C as it's the only thing I really have.



Darkside said:


> As well, you should know that proteins begin to denature at a lot lower temperatures than 121 Celsius. When the proteins denature is a moot point anyway because all you need to do is disrupt the cell membrane, be it lipids or peptidoglycan or even other structures within the cells to kill them. Its not like you'll be finding extremophiles on river rock.


I do apologize as I reread the text it says "proper sterilization" it was late when I wrote the original post so do expect some degree of error. Bleach also disrupts the cell membrane, but is able to at a much lower temperature. Even then, I think I'll go by my textbook's proper sterilization at 121 C.



Darkside said:


> For your information the level of solubles in the drinking water will not alter the boiling point of water even a 1 Celsius. To change the boiling temperature you have to add a lot of solutes. I sometimes use salt in my ice baths to keep the temperature at about -18 Celsius and to do this the solution is absolutely saturated with NaCl.


I actually am very curious about this question because I heard map turtles incubated at a temperature below 28 C will be more likely to be male and above 28 C will be more likely to be female. I might try to test this theory in the near future. But I'd need an incubator, so I thought I'd make one. I was originally thinking of one which heats water for humidity and temperature, but I realized that I'm not an incubator-making person. But anyway, it's a lot to ask, but could you show me the math on this through PM? I think it's definitely interesting to see how much (although it is little) the minute amounts of added compounds in our water affects it's boiling temperature.


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

Joeee said:


> Either way, submerging a rock in liquid water to clean it is not sufficient because of the maximum temperature of liquid water. I've mentioned above that proteins begin to denature at 121C (New information: Source - Campell, Reece, and Mitchell's Biology Textbook).


This must be out of context. Many proteins denature at 100C or substantially less. Eggs, for example, are easily cooked in boiling water, and can even be cooked at about 85C. Somewhat acid foods such as tomatoes and fruits and pickles and such can be canned in a boiling water bath, killing all spoilage organisms, except botulism bacteria, which can't grow in an acid pH. Milk or cream that is just starting to go off will coagulate when you pour it into your not very hot coffee or tea. (yuck)



> One question that I haven't done any research on that I'd like to ask the members of this forum. Because of how water companies add various chemicals to water, how much does this change the boiling temperature of water? I haven't actually tried to calculate the amount of chlorine/or chloramine in tap water.


Raising the boiling point and lowering the melting (freezing) point depend on the molarity of all solutes, including the ones that are already in tap water. It takes a lot to make a significant difference in water. This is explained in chemistry textbooks. Measure the boiling point of tap water some time. IIRC, Toronto water has a TDS of about 180 mg/L.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

Just wait until you have to spend all your time hunched over spectra picking at different peaks wondering just where you went wrong. LOL  OH GOD that's what I'm doing right now.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Darkside said:


> Just wait until you have to spend all your time hunched over spectra picking at different peaks wondering just where you went wrong. LOL  OH GOD that's what I'm doing right now.


OH GOD! I heard of that experiment where you have to count all those little lines, and there are literally thousands of them.

The boiling vs. bleaching discussion is getting boring. Rather than wasting our time with this, why don't we start a new topic concerning a new method to clean river rocks?

EDIT:
My turtle just scared me shitless, I thought it got its hand stuck in the filter but it was eating the guppy grass getting sucked up.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

The best way to disinfect river rock is to bleach it with hydrogen peroxide. That's my preferred method. Usually I just let it dry out scrub it down and toss it in.


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## Joeee (Apr 3, 2010)

Darkside said:


> The best way to disinfect river rock is to bleach it with hydrogen peroxide. That's my preferred method. Usually I just let it dry out scrub it down and toss it in.


I just buy my rocks, there are snapping turtles in any river close to me so I'm too scared to go in. Lol

Hydrogen peroxide is what I use to clean my piercing, putting a few rocks in a bucket with some H2O2 and leaving for a day I guess should work. Just leaving it over night should let all the extra oxygen come out as a gas leaving just water inside, a good rinse never hurts though.


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