# altums at luckys



## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...0143643199952_28106640_59926384_4424289_n.jpg

Luckys had amazing true altums. They said they are tank raised but they were wild caught as juvies. The specimens looks so healthy and they didn't change the water parameters as all. I would pick them up but I have no space for them.

Just a heads up


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

jimmyjam said:


> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...0143643199952_28106640_59926384_4424289_n.jpg
> 
> Luckys had amazing true altums. They said they are tank raised but they were wild caught as juvies. The specimens looks so healthy and they didn't change the water parameters as all. I would pick them up but I have no space for them.
> 
> Just a heads up


Hey Jimmy, how much were the Altums?


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

100 each.. pretty pricey. I hear managerie got them in as well, I wonder how good of a quality they are.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

jimmyjam said:


> 100 each.. pretty pricey. I hear managerie got them in as well, I wonder how good of a quality they are.


Too much for me

BTW, Dragon King got lots about 50 to 75 F1 Altum at nickle to quarter size for $40each.


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> Too much for me
> 
> BTW, Dragon King got lots about 50 to 75 F1 Altum at nickle to quarter size for $40each.


what kind of F1? offspring from wild? they bred in the tank? wow...


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

ouuu.. I never trust the F1s unless their decently big and we can see if their crosses. I have not seen a true f1 offspring yet. They had adult F1s before but they didnt look like true altums. Ill drop by to take a look though. Someone could have come through with a breakthrough magic breeding pill =P


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

jimmyjam said:


> ouuu.. I never trust the F1s unless their decently big and we can see if their crosses. I have not seen a true f1 offspring yet. They had adult F1s before but they didnt look like true altums. Ill drop by to take a look though. Someone could have come through with a breakthrough magic breeding pill =P


How can I tell if they were crossed? how can I identify a true altum?


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

I would not trust that they are true f1's. There are big facilities breeding them in east Asia but they are all sold there and cost way more than what they are asking. I really doubt any of them make it over to here.

I know Jeff Rapps had some real F1's but he is Jeff Rapps not some LFS in Canada.


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## Jorg (Jan 14, 2011)

Here are some pics of some wild caught true Altums I got last year if that will help with the ID


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

^ very nice, I never own altums just what I read, is it true that their color becomes less bright or more dull as they mature?


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## killieman (Mar 27, 2006)

A hundred bucks each!! Ouch! What is wrong with people? Two oca's ago Mark Denaro from the states was selling true altums for eighteen bucks each and these were adults.


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

killieman said:


> A hundred bucks each!! Ouch! What is wrong with people? Two oca's ago Mark Denaro from the states was selling true altums for eighteen bucks each and these were adults.


ya but back then one usd = 18 billion cad hehe jk, limited supply I guess since they keep dying.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Holidays said:


> what kind of F1? offspring from wild? they bred in the tank? wow...


Tommy say they are imported from over sea.



jimmyjam said:


> ouuu.. I never trust the F1s unless their decently big and we can see if their crosses. I have not seen a true f1 offspring yet. They had adult F1s before but they didnt look like true altums. Ill drop by to take a look though. Someone could have come through with a breakthrough magic breeding pill =P


He showed me the tank full of Altums and they do look like true Altum. Whitby BA had 30 to 50 dime size true Altum around 8 months ago and they look the same. BA was selling them for $6.99 each and I was going to get 20 at $5 each but they all when to fishy heaven before I could get them lol



Jackson said:


> I would not trust that they are true f1's. There are big facilities breeding them in east Asia but they are all sold there and cost way more than what they are asking. I really doubt any of them make it over to here.
> I know Jeff Rapps had some real F1's but he is Jeff Rapps not some LFS in Canada.


It is hard to tell when they are that small but in 2 months time we should be able to see if they are true or not.



killieman said:


> A hundred bucks each!! Ouch! What is wrong with people? Two oca's ago Mark Denaro from the states was selling true altums for eighteen bucks each and these were adults.


+1 Ouch


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

On Olivers last list he had true WC orinocos for $25 each $20 for 8+ you can trust his are the real thing. 

DK is near luckys? All the LFS with the dragon in the name confuses me lol

If they are real at that price I bet they are WC not F1


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

Here's a few Tank Breds that I saw on another forum 
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?85280-Tony-Tan-Tank-Bred-Altums

Cheer's...PanzerFodder...


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## Jorg (Jan 14, 2011)

I just seen your picture of the Altums in your first post Jimmyjam. I'm no expert but they do not look like true altums to me.


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## Marowana (Jul 28, 2009)

sold to me as F7 altum. they were tonnie size, some look better than others in the same brood. $5. 


btw, how do you tell if altums are true?


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## PanzerFodder (Oct 15, 2010)

Marowana said:


> btw, how do you tell if altums are true?


Hope that this link helps you out
http://www.finarama.com/tba/identification.htm


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

To be honest, I have seen my fair share and owned a few true altums. Without looking at their behaviour, I would bet my life that their true altums. But looking at how lively they are as new arrivals and how they live fine in toronto water, I was shocked. The picture is not a good representation of its true colours. They look exactly like your first pic, but with actually darker yellow. With that being said, Im still weary, I saw their adult versions of them and they dont look too hot. Im gonna check out Dragon. Jackson, I totally hear you about the dragon comment, I was thinking the one in sauga for a second there. I ll try to take pics of both the dragon ones and luckys again minus flash.

Dl. I bought big als ones before and they died soo quick, it wasnt even funny. I had my tank set to ph of 6.4, soft water, all cycled up. but I had no luck with them. Check out luckys and maybe you can add to the authenticity of their stock, 2 pairs of eyes are always better than one.



Jorg said:


> I just seen your picture of the Altums in your first post Jimmyjam. I'm no expert but they do not look like true altums to me.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Wow $45 for dime sized angels is what Jeff Rapps was asking. This guy on that site says $40 for a bit bigger. I bet that's without shipping.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

Where did you get that little guy? If its f7, Im going to say no, its probably peruvians. I got similar ones from Frank who gets them from a local breeder in the west end (also a forum member.. forgot the name). I got those ones too, and some of the younger ones do look similar to true altums, but they are not. They are actually a scalare. Anyways, if you let us know your stock origin, you will get some better feedback.



Marowana said:


> sold to me as F7 altum. they were tonnie size, some look better than others in the same brood. $5.
> 
> btw, how do you tell if altums are true?


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## Marowana (Jul 28, 2009)

yes i got mine from frank's. he has 2 tanks of them, one from another hobbyist and one from his tank at home. i went with the smaller ones that Frank bred. 
thanks for the ID guys


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## Lee_D (Jun 11, 2010)

JimmyJam,

I don't think BA carries True Altums. They will be the Peruvian ones that are essentially fancy Skalars. I think the reason they have so many die off's is that they bing them in from Soft Acidic water and dump them in Hard Basic local water. Once they are acclimatized here, the customer then puts them back in Soft Acidic. That's what happened to mine. I bought 5 in September and they seem to still be doing fine, but I don't think the water changes were good for them.

I recently decided to slowly bring them back to local burlington water to reduce the RO costs but I think that was a mistake. They are hiding more than they used to and the parasites that were dormant seem to have become active. I'm going to take them back to the soft acidic water and see what happens.

Lee


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Here's a first hint to fake Altum guys. If they are F# then they are peruvian altums. The real deal can not be captive breed. Only a few people on this planet claim to have succeeded. I have never seem any asian place that breeds them as well. It's been tried. But I don't recall seeing any success.

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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Here's a first hint to fake Altum guys. If they are F# then they are peruvian altums. The real deal can not be captive breed. Only a few people on this planet claim to have succeeded. I have never seem any asian place that breeds them as well. It's been tried. But I don't recall seeing any success.


There are large scale breeding set ups of true altums now. It has been done and proven it's real. North America is way behind. East Asia has more than a few guys spawning them.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

I don't know if they were originally crossed with a wildtype like rio (red shoulder) manacapuras or leopoldis. The far east altums body shape is off and at times is missing bars. The wildcaught high body altums are still quite distinct.


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

Im 100% sure they are real. I can distinctively tell the difference, and they were real, but they couldnt aclimitize them well enough in the big system to sell many before they died. Any scalare ones would not have that much trouble keeping in the system.



Lee_D said:


> JimmyJam,
> 
> I don't think BA carries True Altums. They will be the Peruvian ones that are essentially fancy Skalars. I think the reason they have so many die off's is that they bing them in from Soft Acidic water and dump them in Hard Basic local water. Once they are acclimatized here, the customer then puts them back in Soft Acidic. That's what happened to mine. I bought 5 in September and they seem to still be doing fine, but I don't think the water changes were good for them.
> 
> ...


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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

I am almost 100% sure that the luckys ones are real. Take a look at the pics of one of the larger ones. The dragon ones are f2s, but they might be crossed, they def do not look 100% altums, they are some what genetically flawed (what he says is due to in-breeding). Some of the bars of their stock look flawed and they def do not have the fin span as true altums should. But with that being said, there are a few that are gorgeous and still worth the money.

Here some pics.. I would bet my life on that the luckys are real. They have also been known to carry real ones in the past as well, and their price matches up.

what do you guys think?

luckys


















dragons


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

kev416 said:


> I don't know if they were originally crossed with a wildtype like rio (red shoulder) manacapuras or leopoldis. The far east altums body shape is off and at times is missing bars. The wildcaught high body altums are still quite distinct.


Exactly right. That's why I won't trust any asian altums. Another thing is that they don't give a damn if it's a peruvian or a true altums. All they care about is $$$ "the sales", and crossing scalar with a peruvian is the easy fix.

If it didn't come out of the rio Orinoco, I would be picky about it's true origin.



jimmyjam said:


> I am almost 100% sure that the luckys ones are real. Take a look at the pics of one of the larger ones. ...


The picture of the ones at lucky does look alot like the real ones. Just missing some of the red hints, but it could be the lighting or the camera.
Another thing you might want to keep in mind. Not everyone at lucky knows their fish. The remember asking one of the staff, where were the altum imported from and he says "from Egypt." LOL WTF Egypt?!

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## jimmyjam (Nov 6, 2007)

lol Egypt.. lol. I know what you mean.. I have been going there and know the staff for the last 10 years. Theres def a few dumb asses there. I am not really taking their word to heart. As much as I want to say they must be fake... they look too real man. You gotta check out the show tank for yourself. The smaller ones are bit stressed cramming into a small tank, but shake and bars look really good.



Zebrapl3co said:


> Exactly right. That's why I won't trust any asian altums. Another thing is that they don't give a damn if it's a peruvian or a true altums. All they care about is $$$ "the sales", and crossing scalar with a peruvian is the easy fix.
> 
> If it didn't come out of the rio Orinoco, I would be picky about it's true origin.
> 
> ...


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## Kerohime (Jan 10, 2011)

I dont know much about these Altums, but that fish at Lucky's looks magestic...


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Lee_D said:


> JimmyJam,
> 
> I don't think BA carries True Altums. They will be the Peruvian ones that are essentially fancy Skalars. I think the reason they have so many die off's is that they bing them in from Soft Acidic water and dump them in Hard Basic local water. Once they are acclimatized here, the customer then puts them back in Soft Acidic. That's what happened to mine. I bought 5 in September and they seem to still be doing fine, but I don't think the water changes were good for them.
> 
> ...


Actually BA do bring in true Altums and the fish manager tells me that they do lower their PH to 6. Around 6 months ago I was able to only pick out 2 Altums that looks half decent out of that batch of 30 and they were just a little bigger than loonie size. A month later I slowly got them use to the Whitby tap water and they eat anything I throw in that tank and also eat like pigs and doing great too.

BTW, the ones at Lucky does look like the true Altums.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Sorry Jimmy my comment wasn't directed to you but rather Jackson's comment. But to clarify what I said... I have to to agree with Jackson there are a few far east altum producers that have bred wildcaughts and F1's that hold the shape and colour banding but the problem is sorting them out from those claiming to have true altums that are crossed and/or inbred. Some European breeders have altums that are just as questionable. You have to take a chance and order them in and hope what they are saying is truthful. That's a large investment for any store to take a chance on.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

There's a few people who still believe altums cannot be bred in captivity. Just a quick link to an article written by one of Toronto's most respected aquarists.

http://www.archangelus.com/breedingaltums


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

Is it true when Altums gets bigger and to adult size their color (silver) are not as bright and the black band becomes duller? or is that depend on what they eat or genetically they're like that?


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## razputin88 (May 29, 2008)

Well guys,

I've always wanted Altums and since I've got some extra cash lying around, I managed to pick out the 2 best fish in the show tank and have them in my 
tank at home. The fin span is enormous and I can't wait for these guys to put
on some size. They sure look like true Altums according to all pics I can find on the net but I've never kept them before so we'll see how it goes. Wish me luck.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

razputin88 said:


> Well guys,
> 
> I've always wanted Altums and since I've got some extra cash lying around, I managed to pick out the 2 best fish in the show tank and have them in my
> tank at home. The fin span is enormous and I can't wait for these guys to put
> on some size. They sure look like true Altums according to all pics I can find on the net but I've never kept them before so we'll see how it goes. Wish me luck.


You got 2 from Lucky?

BTW, good luck


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## razputin88 (May 29, 2008)

oops.....guess I should've made that clearer. Yes, 2 from Lucky's show tank.


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## razputin88 (May 29, 2008)

Here are some pictures of the new guys.


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

razputin88 said:


> Here are some pictures of the new guys.


They are very nice...$200 for the pair...you must have too much money lol


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I was at Lucky yesterday. Yes, the ones in the show tank looks in every respect a true p. Altum. And the important thing, it didn't have the half bar. Not sure about the smaller ones though. They didn't show long fin that I was expecting.

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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> They are very nice...$200 for the pair...you must have too much money lol


They may become a mating pair and it'll all be worth it. they're nice for sure though!


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## dl88dl (Mar 8, 2010)

Holidays said:


> They may become a mating pair and it'll all be worth it. they're nice for sure though!


lol even if it is a pair but breeding them is a different story...did you say first in Canada eh


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## Holidays (Apr 18, 2010)

dl88dl said:


> lol even if it is a pair but breeding them is a different story...did you say first in Canada eh


well, if they did, wouldn't you want to be his friend heheh...


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Kev-

This altum stuff is too confusing lol I think Tony Tan is probably the best one to go with right now. Many people own them and I have yet to see anyone say they are false altums.
You are right it is a risk and not a cheap one.


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Yes. I agree. They look good. It's too bad this thread preceeded the posting of the group order. Oh well... my single altum will remain solo in a tank full of longfin amazon Hell. I'll cross him or her... and raise the next stink.  I would post a thread how I think the peruensis scalares are probably belem and not peru but they have been bred and distributed around town by now so why bother...


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## kev416 (Aug 22, 2010)

Holidays said:


> Is it true when Altums gets bigger and to adult size their color (silver) are not as bright and the black band becomes duller? or is that depend on what they eat or genetically they're like that?


I love the dark bandings of a fully grown wildcaught altum. Like the clip shows.


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