# What clay do you use/ where do you get it from?



## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

As the title says,

_What red clay do you use in your dirted tanks, and where do you obtain it from._ Also, do you add anything else (like peat moss) to the dirt before you cover with gravel?

I'm looking to add red clay to my attempt at a dirt tank. I know from the forums that some members have used 'amaco natural clay', but I can't find it at michaels, and I don't know what other place would have these products.

Thank you in advance for sharing.

Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Not being one who uses clay, I am not certain what one you are looking for, but if it is the sort that potters use, basically terracotta that you can fire in a kiln, then Curry's Art supply has a few kinds, and so would most other fine art supply places. Curry's has several stores in the GTA and elsewhere and is online too.

Amaco is just one manufacturer, they make a whole line of clays, some of this kind, but also many that are synthetic and either air dry or cure at low temperatures, in a home oven. Those would not do at all for fish tanks, even though they are supposed to be completely non toxic once cured, I'd be afraid to put them in with fish. But aside from characteristics that would be of more interest to a potter, such as workability and firing characteristics and colour, they are all pretty similar; essentially purified dirt, for lack of a more scientific term, and of course, clay, rather than sand or loam.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Yeah, All I was able to find, was the synthetic stuff, which is basically PVC and color. I'll visit again and ask with a more concise description now that I'm better armed with info.

Thanks!

Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Might try a ceramics supply too.. not sure if they do pottery clay, but they might.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I don't think there's any need for additives. My backyard soil works just fine.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm using miracle gro organic potting soil. The theory behind red clay, is that its rich in iron and avails them to the plant roots over time. This is going to be my first dirt tank, so I don't know for sure...


Al.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

there are pottery supply places in the GTA (or were) that sell it at reasonable prices/


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

BillD said:


> there are pottery supply places in the GTA (or were) that sell it at reasonable prices/


I'll check those after the long wknd 
If anyone knows of a specific one, please let me know.

Thanks,

Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

There's a place in Richmond Hill called Tuckers... looks like Curry's Art Supply gets at least half their pottery clays from this place, so you might as well buy from the source. Never dealt with them, but they have a pretty amazing website, and a lot of clays. Since it's iron you're wanting, you'll want terracotta.. which is the reddish coloured clay. Many potting clays are white, I doubt they would have the iron content. Look them up online.. Tuckers Pottery..


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

something like this https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A191B004534&Source=Search ?


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Thank you so much!
I'll def check with them after the long wknd. Need to get that tank going... lol
Leslie and Hwy 7 is not too far, so next week it is! 

Al.


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

I was looking at the MSDS for the clay, and it shows 3.73% Fe3O2 (iron oxide), which is the component that I'm presuming the plants actually use from the clay.

So, for 1lb of clay, there would be roughly 17 grams of iron oxide (to make 3.73%). What I am wondering is, if I put 17 grams of pure iron oxide powder and mix it up with the dirt, or in powder form it would thoroughly mix with the dirt. Would that work as a replacement for 1lb of clay? or does it have to be in the form of clay to slow release? If i mix wet iron oxide sludge with the soil, it would form 'balls' (coated by dirt instead of by clay). Wouldn't that be easier to enrich the soil? Would it harm the livestock? Are the other elements in clay of any use to plants in a tank?

The MSDS shows the other constituents to be - _Barium Oxide, Calcium Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Oxide, Sodium Oxide, Titanium Dioxide, Phosphorus Pentoxide, Aluminum Oxide, Silicon Dioxide _

The reason i am wondering is, iron oxide is fairly easy to produce at home, and if that is the active ingredient the plants need from clay, then why bother with the clay at all, unless its the delivery.

Any thoughts?

Al


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

If I am correctly informed, there are two common forms of iron oxide, ferric and ferrrous. One form is accessible to plants and the other isn't. Also, one becomes the other in an anaerobic environment. Perhaps someone with a definitive knowledge can clarify that. I do know that many people used to add nails or washers to their tanks to aid plant growth.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

did you end up using clay?


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

No, haven't set it up yet. Sometimes, life gets in the way 
Hopefully, this wknd or next. Still deciding whether to use clay or just straight iron oxide in the substrate. Probably will go with the later, just to see if it works, but not sure yet.


Al.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Before you go buying potters clay, you may find some of this interesting. Currently I don't have any clay or laterite in my tanks, as the Eco Complete I started with in the first one said it was not necessary. But my second tank is not Eco Complete and I've been wondering if I should have used laterite or something in it. So I've been doing some reading. Skeptical Aquarist has some interesting things to say.. an excerpt from the post follows... and gives a link to an extensive list of posts on the topic at the Krib, which you can access from the full Skeptical Aquarist post if not from here.. I'm not sure those links will show up because it's copied. If you can bear to read through some of the many posts on the Krib site, there's plenty of info there. A lot of it is chemistry, plain perhaps, but not so simple, at least not to me.. not yet anyway. But from what I've read, it looks like using potters clay, while no doubt cheaper, simply may not give you the results you are looking for.

While my second tank is too young to show any signs of deficiency yet, the Eco Complete one does not, as yet, show any signs of iron shortage I can see. Certainly no chlorosis. So I don't think I need to ameliorate it for iron beyond what's in the Flourish I use, when I remember to use it. Meantime I have some root tabs I'm going to put in the second tank, to see how they work over the next few months.. before I decide if I might need to add some laterite or something for iron.

This the link to the full Skeptical post..

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/laterite

This is the excerpt from it, which starts part way through the post..

Quote "Clay from backyard subsoil or even potter's clay would also have negative charge sites, but many of those sites will already be occupied with positive ions of calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++), which will adversely affect the hardness and pH. Laterite pure and simple has very little Ca or Mg remaining in it. * Laterite binds ammonium and other positively-charged ions like Fe++, K+, etc. and holds them, until a root hair exchanges another positive ion for the ammonium, which the plant uses to build amino acids and proteins, or until nitrifying bacteria scavenge it. The positively-charged cations that cluster around attract other negatively-charged anions, like phosphate (PO4-). In this way laterite, like other sources of colloidal clay in your substrate, can help you maintain lowered levels of phosphate in the water, which in turn will discourage algae. Phosphate is also readily adsorbed onto the kind of iron oxides that make Flourite so reddish, Diana Walstad points out. Plant roots can tap into these precipitates by respiring CO2, which gives a highly localized acidic reaction that dissolves the precipitates. Not the kind of substrate microzones you'd want to disturb with a gravel vacuum. * Thus, though laterite itself is depleted of nutrients (save the micronutrient iron), it binds to itself many plant nutrients. Laterite's high CEC ("cation exchange capacity"), the capacity to adsorb and hold positively charged ions until a plant's root hair takes them up, is often casually mis-imagined as making laterite itself "nutrient-rich." * Some links. For a good easily-understood description of the chemistry of all this, see George Booth's "AquaticConcepts." * Stephen Pushak's carefully-written Sept 1995 post about laterite, CEC and the chelation of metal ions is like a brief article embedded in the long, somewhat diffuse, but highly informative thread "Everything you want to know about laterite," archived at theKrib. You should read the whole thread, which was sparked by the early advocacy of iron, laterite and substrate heating in Kaspar Horst and Horst E. Kipper,*The Optimum Aquarium (1986). *"


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## Mlevi (Jan 28, 2012)

Fishfur,

Just as I was settlin' on usin' clay, you had to murk up the water! *grin*

Reading the posts, laterite would be more ideal IF those CEC claims are true. What would be a locally obtainable source though? organic kitty litter? I trolled a bit online and saw people had varying luck with kitty litter. I also saw one where they used laterite as THE substrate (no soil). I see API sells 'pure laterite' but, as with anything geared towards a specific segment market, its premium priced. 

I thought walstead was confusing, but some of these analysis from those posts are even more out of my league. Now I totally don't know what to do. Help!


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Sorry, wasn't trying to make it worse. Trouble is the more you learn, the more you find you don't know ! But isn't Seachem Flourite a Laterite substrate ? I think it is.. have to check on that I guess.

Kitty litter is a highly variable product. When it first came out, it was all basically the same stuff and the only real issue was price. Nowadays there are so many brands, and so many new varieties coming out, many of which are not even remotely clay based. Wood, corn & wheat are all commonplace now. Plus there are a number of additives being used in most kitty litters, starting with simple baking soda, and who knows how much of it ?, to various scents, chlorophyll and gawd knows what else. I wouldn't use any kitty litter in a fish tank.. there is just no way to know what's been added to it, or where it was sourced from.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I checked into Flourite. If you go to Seachem's site, it has a PDF with the mineral values on all their planted tank substrates. Flourite is not laterite,, but it is meant to serve the same purpose, that is, supply available iron to plant's roots. It's advantage over laterite and no doubt potters clay, for that matter, is that it is stable and won't break down in water, whereas laterite will break down, into quite fine particles. It's only meant to be mixed with other substrates, not used alone. Price of course is another matter. Don't know what potters clay costs.. Flourite at BA's if memory serves me at all, is around $25. or so for a 20 lb bag, I think.. maybe less during their tent sale, possibly, or at other sources. Comes in red and black, maybe brown, not sure on that, some minor difference between the colours but not much. 

I think I have seen bagged laterite in some store, somewhere, just can't recall where or even when, exactly.. but if it falls apart when wet, that doesn't sound like much fun to work with. And the potter's clay will no doubt do the same. If it were me, I'd vote for Flourite, if the budget will stand it.


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## Egonsgirl (Feb 28, 2012)

Mlevi, I too wanted to set up a "dirted tank". I sort of already did.... but it has been left to sit uninhabited other than some plants, wood and snails.... and without a light running. I have added the red potters clay - powdered, as a thin layer atop of my soil / under the gravel. As I have not put fish or light to this tank, and it has been sitting neglected with only a couple of airstones, I honestly cannot tell you how it would work. But I can offer you some of the powered red clay "red stone" from the Richmond hill store, as I did end up purchasing a 50lb bag of it this summer. I had meant to set up the tank for my german rams, but did not have success in keeping them long enough to transfer to that tank - as it was not ready for them because of my piece of driftwood I chose to use, had dried out and kept floating up and making a mess of things... then as you said...... life happened... and so it still sits. maybe I will put in some of my neons... but not until I rearrange some things. By the way... some of my plants are still going strong, without the light. Good luck with your decision. pm me if you are interested.


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