# Sump tank plumbing question



## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey Plumbing guru's!!

This will be my first time plumbing a system and I've did some research on this subject and made a layout.

Setup: 
33 Gallon shallow with durso drain. (Bottom drained)
36x18x12

Sump dimension is 36L x 12W x 16H

Just wanted to get the guru's to chime in on my setup.

Here is the layout:
Teal: PVC pipes
Red: True Union Ball Valves and union valves
Yellow: 









Questions:
1. Should the parts be slip or threaded? I've not really understood the benefit of each other than person preference?

Lemme know what your thoughts are! 
I'm lost when it comes to plumbing xD


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## Mikeylikes (Nov 22, 2013)

my .02 cents:

- get gate valves as ball valves are prone to stick later on. Gate valves allow for more precise tuning

- slip or threaded is personal preference. If slip you will have to glue. Threaded you will/should use plumbers tape to get a better watertight seal .. pick your poison.

- it looks like you have two ball valves on the same out line (?) .. that is a waste IMO. Or did you intend one to be a union in the drawing?

where is your skimmer going ??

I posted an earlier picture of my plumbing you want an example/idea of how I did mine.


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

Very common sump layout with a few minor tweeks.

Slip is better since it'll be cemented and permanent after drying. If you cement it properly you won't have to worry about leaks. You'll never unscrew threaded fittings anyway so why go threaded. Good that you have union ball valves so you can take down the plumbing in the future if you ever required servicing it. Plus gives you the ability to play with angles even after the pipes are cemented. Trust me, PVC cement cures faster than you think and it's thick stuff. 

Some advice is try to steer away from 90 degree elbows for both IN and OUT but especially OUT (return line). Why? It affects flow output from your pump due to the restriction of water having to hit a wall and turn 90 degrees. For the IN side it is noisy so you may get a water crashing sound that can echo or vibrate slightly, creating even more sound. With some proper angling and calculation you could probably do some 45 degree elbows and get it to work that way.

Where will your skimmer go? 

I like the idea of maximizing refugium area as much as possible simply because I love refugiums but your IN chamber is a bit small at 4.5". Also is there a reason why the first baffle is so enlarged? After having another look at your diagram, I noticed that your measurements for the OUT chamber (return / pump) is 8" total including the baffle. This will equate to a pump chamber of roughly 5-6" which is a bit small in my opinion to support a good sized pump or give you the ability to upgrade in the future if you needed it (I've changed my pump 3 times on my current setup). Plus in the final chamber you'll want to have more space to add other pumps to run your carbon/GFO reactors etc. The final chamber will be the only chamber that fluctuates so it must be a decent size relative to the display tank or else it'll constantly be topping off and eventually will suck air. In reality 7" isn't that high compared to the big sized pumps there are and their relative input placements. 

Same to the 7" baffle sizes which will dictate the water level of the refugium; 7" really isn't that high but then again I don't know what you'll house in your refugium. If you're going to do EcoSystems method only and you're going to ONLY have Miracle Mud in there then 7" is perfect. Realistically, people do live rock, sand, macro algae etc so 7" isn't that much.

Finally, the sizing of your PVC for IN and OUT; a lot of pump manufacturers recommend going from smaller to bigger. What I mean by that is, take for example a Danner Mag-Drive 9.5; the outlet of the pump is 3/4" and they recommend connecting the pump to an expanded 1" PVC pipe to utilize better flow. When I set my plumbing I never quite understood why but people all seemed to reach the same consensus that going from 3/4" output to 1" pipe is both recommended by the pump manufacturer plus it helps with flow of the pump. I'd say go 1" for the return unless you've already got the tank and the holes are already drilled and will only do a 3/4" pipe then disregard. 1.5" will have excellent flow for a IN (drain pipe) but be careful there's too much air. When there's air in a drain line there's always noise and it's not pleasant. This can be corrected by the type of overflow method you will use.

Sorry to send you back to the drawing board, but I've been down this road and it was very stressful and I must have gone thru over a hundred drafts but it certainly was enjoyable every step of the way.

Hope that helps.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

On the return pump (the pump you have labelled as out), try to find sweep 90's (these are large radius 90 degree turns, as it will prevent putting added stress on your pump, allow more flow, and also make your pump last longer.

Also, and this is personal, but I hate spa flex!!! Hard pipe is better, IMHO, as it gives you better seals to the pipe. I prefer slip connections, well glued.

And, as it is always tough to get things lined up perfectly, plus it acts as a vibration dampener, consider using a short piece of flexible silicone piping at your "out" pump as it will give you some flexibility when bringing the pipes together. Use stainless steel pipe clamps on the silicone to ensure it is sealed.

Are you installing a skimmer in the sump?


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks for the replies!!

I'll take a look into the Gate Vales. Where do we get gate valves from?

The 2nd ball valve was a mistake, the valve closest to the pump is just a union valve.

I'll change the angles to either sweeper 90 or I will use 2 45's.

The person who I purchased this sump from originally didn't have a refugium. The place where I labelled the refugium was actually where they put their skimmer. I was planning on either having the refugium or a skimmer there. I havent decided yet... 

The pump I will be using on this system is the Eheim 1048 Universal pump. This should be enough turn around for the 33 Gallon shallow right?

Here is the picture of the first baffle on why its is so large. There is a place to put an egg grate for filter floss (what the previous owner used it for)


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

I was looking into sump designs and it looks like A simple design that would have both a refugium and a skimmer part would be this one: http://www.melevsreef.com/catalog/sump-model-f

Looking at what I have, it looks like a simple job. The first baffle where the IN goes, I would take that baffle and move it closer to the 2nd one which creates more room to also add in a skimmer to the IN section. The over-under-under removes the bubbles.

The old refugium section will turn into the OUT section and the very left of the sump (The old OUT section), I can turn into the refugium by removing two of the smaller 7" baffles and moving the larger baffle straight down.

I'll redraw my diagram and my plumbing in the morning 

Unless someone else can see me having a skimmer and refugium in the current design?


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

This is just my humble opinion, and others hopefully will have comments to add, but I think your pump is undersized and not sure it's a good choice. First off, non priming pumps are a pita to get going esp if there has been a power flicker, or outage. Look for a self priming pump.

Secondly, if this sump is below your tank, the max head height this pump has is 5' and at 5' head height (the distance from where the pump is located to where the outflow goes into your tank), the water flow is going to be less than 100 litres per hour, which is really low.

There are lots of charts that talk about how much water turn over you should have in your tank per hour, but with this pump it would seem that you are barely getting one tank exchange of water per hour if your tank is above the sump, and assuming there is somewhere between a 4' and 5' head height.

Sorry, I can't recommend a pump in the same price range. The pumps I use and am familiar with are too large for your system.

I think the refugium idea on the side with the skimmer on the other side and the "out section" in the centre is workable!


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## noy (Nov 19, 2012)

Crayon said:


> This is just my humble opinion, and others hopefully will have comments to add, but I think your pump is undersized and not sure it's a good choice. First off, non priming pumps are a pita to get going esp if there has been a power flicker, or outage. Look for a self priming pump.


+1

I would recommend the jebao dc pumps - there is one rated at 780gph for about $90. Actually if you get one of these you won't have to worry about reducing head resistance and could even plumb off the return to run a reactor(s).


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## marblerye (Jul 25, 2010)

+1 Crayon. I have to agree the pump is undersized.

Also +1 for melevsreef sump model f because ultimately that's what my sump ended up being. The center chamber is the return, left is drain or IN and the right is a massive refugium and it all spills into the center. Note that melev added teeth to the baffle to catch any particulates that were to spill over ie macro algae. I did the same.

For that layout you'll have to pick out a skimmer first in order to determine the height of the water that particular skimmer will be happy at and then silicon the baffle accordingly.


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks guys for the recommendations!
I originally purchased this pump for a 20 long. Haha

I'll look into the dc pumps


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey guys, 
I was looking into the Jebao DC pumps, are you guys referring ot the DC3000 for my setup?
The DC3000 setup can go up to 3000 liters which I checked it to be around 790GPH. 
Or should I be getting the DC6000 which is from 1800 Liters to 6000 Liters which is 475GPH to 1585GPH?

If I get the 3000 series, I will be maxing out the pump and if I get the 6000 series, I will be using the lower end?

What do you guys suggest?


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

I have this skimmer that I bought but never ended up using it in my display tank (22 gallons) as I do weekly water changes. 
http://www.cadlights.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=56&products_id=259

The footprint of this skimmer is very minimal. I think I may keep the current sump design but just move the first (IN) baffle over more so the IN portion is larger.

What do you guys think?


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

I'd suggest you add an emergency overflow pipe to your design in the event your main overflow drain line becomes clogged. Look up bean animal or Herbie designs for explanations.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

+1 wrt fury165!

For a single drain line, a Durso is the safest option. Sure it'll be a bit splashy and have some noise. Put a glass plate over the incoming water area of the will help contain the splash and some sound dampening. Either drill a hole to accommodate the pipe (pack the gap w/floss) or bulkhead for the drain line. On the downward run, union at the bulkhead and one before the elbow will help in removing the pipe for access to that area of the sump if need be.

*If you want to roll the dice*, a gate valve should be near the end of the drain line. Put a union before the valve for easy removal to clean regularly.

At the bulkhead underneath the aquarium, unions will suffice. Save the $ vs TUBVs 
For a 35gal, ¾" pipe is fine to get a 4-6x turnover rate but ideally to minimize head loss vs ¾" radius bends, stepping up to 1" pipe and 1" 90* elbows and reducing to ¾" at the bulkhead as a near equivalent.

Use a quality made pump. Sicce Synchra Silent pumps will work well and are pretty quiet. Parts and service are easily accessible. Eheim 1260 is too big (you can T it to recirculate back into the other end of the sump) and the 1250 is too small factoring head height but are work horses and quieter than the Mag pumps.

If you are going the Jebao DC route buy the 6000. The lower speed means it doesn't have to work hard and will last longer but I suggest buying two. In time, one will fail and you don't want to be w/o a pump for long.

HTH/JME


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

wtac said:


> +1 wrt fury165!
> 
> For a single drain line, a Durso is the safest option. Sure it'll be a bit splashy and have some noise. Put a glass plate over the incoming water area of the will help contain the splash and some sound dampening. Either drill a hole to accommodate the pipe (pack the gap w/floss) or bulkhead for the drain line. On the downward run, union at the bulkhead and one before the elbow will help in removing the pipe for access to that area of the sump if need be.
> 
> ...


This tank will have a durso drain setup. 
Thanks for the advice. I will go 1" from the pump and go down to 3/4 near the bulkhead


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## Hatpin (Jun 17, 2011)

You can buy a gate valve at lowes 
they are right beside the ball valves. 

I use ball valves my self since they come in a wider range of sizes,
But if a gate will fit then use it they are hands down better for control.
(Hence why they are one the side of your house)

Get a larger Return Pump like the other guys are stating, with the ball or gate valve you can control the flow if there is to much pressure.
A lot of people will say doing this puts stress on the pump, I strongly disagree with this. All pumps we use have a magnetic impeller and will still spin without stress if the intake or outtake of the pump is restricted, a lot of pumps I sell in store come with built in flow control. example I've had a laguna pond filter 6400 gph running in the store pond and restricted to about 2/3rd its max flow rate, never have I had an issue with this pump, my marine land 1200 gph return was used on my 45gallon reef for 2 years and was restricted to 400-500 gph, now its running fully open on my 120 without any issues or problems, always starts 100% (annual cleaning of the impeller is a must)

An impeller will never wear out since it actually isn't touching the inner walls of the motor assembly, if they are wearing out its due to sand or rocks slowly scraping the magnet apart causing failure.

Just my 2 sense


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

Hatpin said:


> You can buy a gate valve at lowes
> they are right beside the ball valves.
> 
> I use ball valves my self since they come in a wider range of sizes,
> ...


I have never ever seen gate valves at Lowes I was there earlier to get some tubing, unless your talking about metal gate valves that they have there but it will be a bad idea to use metal in salt.


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## Hatpin (Jun 17, 2011)

coldmantis said:


> I have never ever seen gate valves at Lowes I was there earlier to get some tubing, unless your talking about metal gate valves that they have there but it will be a bad idea to use metal in salt.


They sell CPVC ones at the Lowes in Brampton , Ontario 100%
100% Metal Free

I've been in the Plumbing isle a Dozen times this past month for the set up of my 120.

I only go to lowes for my plumbing I find they have the best selection, and still its not great.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

Oh ya that's right, I remember looking at the cpvc ones however I don't recall seeing anything larger than 1/2" when I was doing my plumbing for my sumps


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## Hatpin (Jun 17, 2011)

Yea I don't think they go over 1/2 inch or anything bigger then 3/4 for that matter.

I always used threaded Ball Valves with cement, since I need and like larger piping


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

who did you buy that sump from? i am totally stealing that design, it's perfect the way it is-(for me) If you haven't changed it yet maybe we can work something out. That is if you want to start fresh with a design that has a fuge.


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## Jaysan (Dec 19, 2011)

fesso clown said:


> who did you buy that sump from? i am totally stealing that design, it's perfect the way it is-(for me) If you haven't changed it yet maybe we can work something out. That is if you want to start fresh with a design that has a fuge.


I got it off someone off the forums. 
I can actually work with this design and also have a skimmer in it


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