# Preparing leaves for aquarium use



## MacFish (Jun 15, 2006)

Now that I've taken the plunge into SA Dwarfs, I am going to add some leaves to the tank for hiding places. I've read that Oak leaves are the best choice but I wondered if I need to do anyhting to them before adding them. I assume so as I don't want to introduce any parasites or diseases. 

Do I just boil them for a while? Anything else that needs to be done??

Thanks in advance!


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I didnt boil mine but they seem alright. 

Always use naturally fallen leaves as i am sure its somthing the same as IAL and the green ones can be fatal to your fish. (as i hear...)

I gave mine a good clean under some hot water.. But i didnt want to leach out all the goodies that come along with using the leaves...

I'd say.. Boil them, let the water cool that was used as use that as well. 


They look so dang pretty in the tank. I do have IAL if you'd like some


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Nooooooo noooo noooooo baaaad mod advice bad!

1: Don't use random leaves you find!! Just don't do it. 

2: ANY leaf decaying in your aquarium is going to leach all kinds of organic compounds into the water and increase your bioload, be prepared for it.

3: Boiling leaves (especially almond leaves) dramatically decreases their useful time in the aquarium and removes all their useful properties. Using the water they were boiled in negates their boiling even further.

4: The only leaves you should use are almond leaves from a pet shop. They should be replaced weekly as they really begin to decay. Anything more than 2 large leaves in about 50 gallons of water will dramatically acidify your water and have sort of a doping effect on your fish. Therefore if you want to use a lot of leaves, you will also have to use a HUGE amount of carbon and change it very frequently. And I mean huge. Like a liter to fifty gallons.

I kept nothing but SA dwarfs from 2002 to 2006 and now Im moving to loaches, and honestly, the leaves are unnecessary for any and all species. Just provide a comfortable environment. What species are you getting? Keep in mind they dont mix like africans


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Hmmm Well i only know from keeping betta... So cichlids are a whole nother world to me.. lol

But.. I've used and many betta breeders use 'wild caught' (LOL) leaves.. They do the same damn thing with IAL as well and charge a bit for the stuff...

Some links... The second has a post about what leaves to stay away from as well.
http://www.ultimatebettas.com/index.php?showtopic=4411&hl=oak+leaves
http://www.ultimatebettas.com/index.php?showtopic=3966&hl=oak+leaves


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Ciddian said:


> Hmmm Well i only know from keeping betta... So cichlids are a whole nother world to me.. lol
> 
> But.. I've used and many betta breeders use 'wild caught' (LOL) leaves.. They do the same damn thing with IAL as well and charge a bit for the stuff...
> 
> ...


Well I've only ever heard of using almond and oak leaves. Both have an action similar to tea tree oil. Its slightly antibacterial and also has a light doping effect on fish... Like taking one hit off an aquajoint sort of thing...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Oohh hey pablo.. Are drift wood and Leaf issues basically the same? I mean the drift with leach tannins and degrade over time...

Should you apply the same concerns there?


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## MacFish (Jun 15, 2006)

Hmm, any more replies? No disrespect to Pablo and Ciddian of course but when you have two people who seem pretty knowlegable on the subject with such differing advise, I'd like a few more opinnions 

My parents have a nice red oak tree on their property and if it isn't going to harm my fish, those leaves would look great in my tank I think. 

I curently have a trio of A. Caetei right now in my 33 gal. So far, both females seem good to go if ya know what I mean but the male is just not interested. He has staked out 2 caves and if the females venture in, he chases them right back out. 

What do you think? Could I get away with adding another species if I add some more caves and plant it fairly heavily? I was thinking for a 33, the trio is about all I could do.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

You cant do more dwarfs on the bottom safely... fighting is very likely.

However, you could add something that doesn't live on the bottom, such as maybe a pair of Angelfish?

Odds are that tree is ok. Best bet is just to call menagerie 921 4966 and run it past Harold quick it'll only take two seconds.

Either way, you'd want to use leaves that were dried all the way out, off the ground not the tree, and you'd want to make sure there was nothing icky like dog pee or fertilizers pesticides etc where it fell

Ya driftwood and leaves are similar except that the driftwood can be in your tank for years and the leaves should come out after about a week because they rot at a gradually accelerating rate.

They also leach more than just tannnins and do have that slight marijuana-for-fish and tea tree oil like effect. Ask Harold. Or Wilson.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Something I just thought of, which I'm sure is doable, this would be a Wilson question, is, if you wanted to do a realistic apisto bottom, which many of them come from, with a muddy, dead leaf covered bottom, you could preserve the leaves. How you would do this, I don't know.

You could probably coat them in some sort of fish safe epoxy of some sort or some sort of silicone compound. This'll no doubt put an unrealistic plastique sheen on them, but they'll last indefinitely in theory...

Again its a Wilson question. I'm not a chemist, he is...

OH and leaves don't make hiding places... Unless you pile a jillion of em, which is too much fishijuana to leach into your tank. They just flop down and are flipped about by current a lot. When I used to have them my rams enjoyed flipping them over to see if there were any bugs under them... There never were. They eventually lost interest


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

Here's my take on leaves. I use dried Oak leaves from my back yard and have done so for a few years with no ill effects. In fact that trio of Catae were spawned using Oak leaves. Yes Indian Almond leaves are supposed to be better. At $10 a pop it is very expensive. Oak leaves do crumble over time and it forms mulm. I just siphon it out and add some more.
I do wash the leaves in warm water to remove whatever that may be on them. I do not use any ferts so no problem there.
Try it out. That's the way to learn.


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## MacFish (Jun 15, 2006)

I thought you had said you use oak leaves. I may give it a shot. How many do you put in your tank? Just a few or do you cover the bottom? 

How long do they normally take to crumble?? Is it something that needs to be changed on a weekly basis as Pablo has said?


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I have about 6 to 7 in my 25... I put them in on thanksgiving and they are still there and pretty much whole... i added some Almond leaves to get more tannin out of them..

Not sure what moon does.. ^^


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

I put enough to cover the bottom of the tank. They last about 3 months. When they crumble I take them out and replace them.
Tropical Almond leaves are supposed to be the best according to Apisto experts. But they are soooo expensive. I think Oak is a good substitute.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

moon said:


> I put enough to cover the bottom of the tank. They last about 3 months. When they crumble I take them out and replace them.
> Tropical Almond leaves are supposed to be the best according to Apisto experts. But they are soooo expensive. I think Oak is a good substitute.


They aren't horribly expensive if you find the right supplier. Some people have been totally ripped off paying a dollar for a small handful...


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

Pablo
Do you know a local supplier?


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

I can prolly find someone who will sell 25 ish for 15... Good and not pre-boiled leaves.. 

I know of a philippines breeder (crackerbettas) who uses dried banana leaves... I dont know how that will relate to your cichlids thou.. 

Actually.. now that i think of it. You could prolly PM Ran and sweet talk him into getting some leaves for you since i think he's still in Singapore.. ^^


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Ciddian said:


> I can prolly find someone who will sell 25 ish for 15... Good and not pre-boiled leaves..
> 
> I know of a philippines breeder (crackerbettas) who uses dried banana leaves... I dont know how that will relate to your cichlids thou..
> 
> Actually.. now that i think of it. You could prolly PM Ran and sweet talk him into getting some leaves for you since i think he's still in Singapore.. ^^


I picked up like 400 oak leaves for $3 from Harold... they worked good for me...
I don't know why you'd want to go to the expense of an almond leaf it isn't literally 300 times better to justify the cost...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

actually.. if you wanna be straight up about it...

Compaired to the oak and almond the almond leaches those tannins so much better than an oak leaf might. I find myself having to use two or three times as much to get the same effect from almond.

I was speaking about almond in the above paragraph.. I hope i didnt mix up anything.
Billions of free oak leaves avail at Moore ave and mt. pleasent area.. Just in the park there


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

I've been using Oak leaves for about a year now with no noticable effect on ph. I understand it has some sort of antibiotic effect but not sure of it. I would like to try Almond leaves and complare it to Oak.


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## MacFish (Jun 15, 2006)

Well, I wasn't able to get the leaves. My dad sprayed the lawn with a pesticide a few weeks ago so I didn't want to chance it. It was an Organic pesticide but still, I didn't think it would have really mattered.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

Macfish
If you are planning on coming to the Brampton auction on Saturday, I can bring some leaves for you.


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## MacFish (Jun 15, 2006)

Didn't know there was an auction on Saturday. Got any details??

I don't know if I'll be able ot make it but if I can I will let you know.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

Check out BAC's website for location. It is on Saturday starting at 10:00.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

moon said:


> I've been using Oak leaves for about a year now with no noticable effect on ph. I understand it has some sort of antibiotic effect but not sure of it. I would like to try Almond leaves and complare it to Oak.


That's GOTTA be a high kH thing. They always drop my pH.


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Ciddian said:


> actually.. if you wanna be straight up about it...
> 
> Compaired to the oak and almond the almond leaches those tannins so much better than an oak leaf might. I find myself having to use two or three times as much to get the same effect from almond.
> 
> ...


Well, the oak leaves I got were all nice and even in a bag (they're included in my lot of free crudd btw... they've probly expired though).

But- you say you have to use three times as much- but not a hundred times as much- and yet almond leaf is a hundred times the price. I just can't accept paying almost a dollar for a dead leaf.

It just makes my brain hurt to even consider it.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

Pablo said:


> That's GOTTA be a high kH thing. They always drop my pH.


That's true. My kH is very high.


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## 66 north (Apr 10, 2006)

I bought a huge bag of almond leaves at Menagerie about a year ago for $4. I'm still using them.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

66 north said:


> I bought a huge bag of almond leaves at Menagerie about a year ago for $4. I'm still using them.


Do you know if they were Indian or Brazilian?


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