# Active substrate end of life, time for a new tank and idea



## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

So my Netlea (Similar to ADA) soil, after absorbing all kinds of things from the tank, has decided to start releasing them, so it's time to get rid of it. It's the problem with any active substrate. They have a high CEC and can store things from the water and release them when full. They can also run out of whatever they use to lower the pH. Either way, they do have a lifespan, especially what we want from the soil for shrimp. I am going to reuse it for my planted tank though after a rinse, let it suck up the nutrients I dose and from root tabs.

Mine seems to be loaded with Nitrates and Phosphates. I got algae growing over sponge filters, walls, plants, sponge intakes, rocks, everything. I've taken soil out of the tank, into a container with fresh water, 20-40ppm nitrates within 24 hours. The soil's cap-put.

So I came up with a Hamburg matten filter for my filtration. The tank is a 20gal tank. I'm going to use a bit of inert gravel but leave a big portion of the tank bare bottom for easy cleanup, etc. I am going to use Ebi-ken Sosei, which is a product to lower the pH of your RO water by adding an organic dis solvable fluvic acid that can be added to your RO for water changes and will drop the pH to a acidic range without affect other param's.

Here's the sponge with a dry fit with some supports to hold the sponge in place.










Support rails painted black with Kyrlon paint and siliconed into place.










My helper 










The idea behind a Hamburg Matten filter is that you put a powerhead or airdriven lift tube behind the sponge, and expelling water out of the area back into the area in front. This forces water to be pulled through the giant wall of sponge. This provides filtration, huge area for biofilm for shrimp, and very low maintenance as the sponge can go sometimes a year or two without being removed and cleaned. The bonus is shrimp love sponges for munching, so bonus for them. Some people even get a bit of moss growing and creeping up the sponge to create a moss wall.

Here's a pic of how the HMF works.










So far I haven't lost any shrimp from the Nitrate/Phosphate dumping but babies sure aren't there like they should. No amount of water changes was able to get rid of it, so I'll see how this method works.

Here's the dry fit for the substrate divider. It's a plastic PVC based compound called Celuka. It's basically the same stuff they use for PVC pipes that's heated and then filled with tiny micro air bubbles then compressed to give a very hard, PVC "wood" that comes in 1x6 and 2x4 and all the standard lumber sizes. It can be cut with a chop shop and comes out with a super smooth edge without sanding, can be drilled, painted, just like wood but just pure PVC. I've used it for turtle docks, crayfish homes, all kinds of things in tanks before and since it's just PVC, just heated with air and no additives, it's safe for tanks like PVC is. I'm going to paint it black and silicone it in so the front part of the tank is bare and can be used for feeding and easy cleanup and the gravel will be contained against the sponge, so it will seal the bottom of the sponge to stop shrimp from crawling under, and act like a UGF and pull crap out of the substrate towards the sponge.










I was also reading Frank say that basically inert soils but ones with a high CEC (He was referring to Akadama) will absorb some of the fluvic acid from the Sosei and release it, thus helping stabilize the ph of water over time as small amounts will be retained and released by the soil. Another reason I choose Flourite black for my substrate.

The other thing with the HMF is you can hide your heater, CO2 difussor, whatever behind the sponge.

Here's the divider glued in and painted.










Painted the bottom of the tank black










I have a fluval 2 internal filter, so I can stuff it with purigen or floss or whatever I want to get a bit of different filtration in there besides the jumbo sponge wall.

Here it is connected to my output that will sit above the water line to get lots of surface movement and O2 exchange. The water rushes through all the holes and slams against them and that should increase O2 content as well as it's creating movement of the return water.










I got some Sosei ordered and should have it in by Tuesday, so I'll see how that works for lowering the pH. I got lots of stuff to load up the tank quickly with biofilm, so it shouldn't take long before I can add some low grades and see how they like it. I think I'd be happy with 6.5pH water for them instead of the 5pH Netlea gives me. Snails don't last long in the low pH, some plants don't like it and as Randy said in another post, it is rather acidic at that pH.

I'm moving in about a year and plan on building a nice shrimp breeding rack, so this is also a test to see if I can get them breeding without active substrate, giant filter wall that doesn't need to be changed or cleaned and something I can add to the water to lower the pH some what. I don't want a rack of 20 tanks with active substrate that need to be replaced, canister filters that need cleaning, etc. Very costly and time consuming to maintain 20 tanks like that. Much easier to have mostly bare bottom tanks, mostly air driven, very little cleaning time, etc.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

thats a great idea. talk about surface area for bacteria to grow.

shrimp will be all over that.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

That's what I'll do to one of my 20GL too, just not sure what pump to use. I have a few MJ 400 and 600 lying around but I found that way too powerful for 20G L.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Another thing, how much of clearance you plan to leave (between the water surface to the top of the foam)? Th reason I'm asking is, I find that shrimps will climb, with the foam such an easy climbing surface, that's another thing to think about. Good thing is, I'll see how it goes for you ;-)


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

randy said:


> Another thing, how much of clearance you plan to leave (between the water surface to the top of the foam)? Th reason I'm asking is, I find that shrimps will climb, with the foam such an easy climbing surface, that's another thing to think about. Good thing is, I'll see how it goes for you ;-)


Me too!


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

I plan to leave a good couple of inches anyways. The fluval 2 internal filter behind it is fairly sealed except for a few spots, so no adults could get chopped up in it and babies don't usually climb so it should be good. I want my outflow to be a bit above the surface so I can get lots of water dropping down and surface agitation for lots of O2 exchange.

My Sosei should be here Tues/Wed, so I'll see how that works for lowering the pH a bit and see how it works out cost wise vs going through active substrate but am looking forward to make the pH being better than the 5pH netlea gave me and being able to keep a ramshorn alive for more than 3 days. lol.

Randy, yes with a HMF you don't want a lot of flow or the turnover is too fast.  you want lots of dwell time in the sponge wall to allow the bacteria to break it down good and slow. That's why lots of people go air driven with them and make a lift tube out of PVC instead of a filter or powerhead. My fluval lets me dial down anywhere from about 20-120gph, so I can find a sweet spot.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I've tried the sosei and found it didn't change the Ph for me. I'm interested to see what it does for you.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

matti2uude said:


> I've tried the sosei and found it didn't change the Ph for me. I'm interested to see what it does for you.


Did you try it on tap water or RO? What is the pH of your RO after remineralized? Was it an active substrate or high CEC substrate tank that could have absorbed all the fluval acid?


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

getochkn said:


> Did you try it on tap water or RO? What is the pH of your RO after remineralized? Was it an active substrate or high CEC substrate tank that could have absorbed all the fluval acid?


I've used it on tap and RO/DI water. My RO/DI water is Ph 8 with or without minerals. I've used it in a jug of water, with ADA, Akadama and pool filter sand.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

matti2uude said:


> I've used it on tap and RO/DI water. My RO/DI water is Ph 8 with or without minerals. I've used it in a jug of water, with ADA, Akadama and pool filter sand.


That's a bit high of a pH for RO, maybe a bit of lingering kH in the water and that's battling it and keep the pH high? Mine from Canadian Tire comes out around 6.7-6.9, so it's already almost there in the first place.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

From what I've read Ph 8 is pretty normal for RO/DI not RO.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Well I'll report back in a few days when I have the Sosei to see how it works with my RO water. As with anything in this hobby, everyone's tanks, water and experiences are different as are the methods to get there. The main thing is happy shrimp regardless of what we use for water, tanks, filtration, etc.


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## Fishyfishyfishy (Mar 3, 2008)

matti2uude said:


> From what I've read Ph 8 is pretty normal for RO/DI not RO.


Yes, the DI unit will raise the PH. For RO water, it will not be that high. What I do is I have a little valve right before the RO water enters the DI unit, so I can access lower PH water.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Flooded the tank, took a few sponge filters and squeezed them out right in front of the sponge to let it suck up all the goodies, added some new and used fluorite with Old Sea Mud powder, EI and Bioplus mixed with it to help get some good bacteria growing, seasons sponge filter with moss growing out of it, my mineral balls, some cholla wood from another tank, few pre-soaked IAL leaves, so lots of goods to season the tank. Added a few ramshorns and fed them already to get some ammonia going and get some snail sludge goodness over the glass. Took a couple seasoned plastic pot scrubbers from another filter and put them behind the sponge wall to help season it. pH is about 6.9 from my RO water, so not bad off the start.

Added 2 low grade CRS as tester shrimp. One is actually coloring his white up nicer than the tank he came from.

Should have Sosei by tomorrow or Wednesday, so I'll try it. If it doesn't work, I may just stick with the RO water with Bee gH+ minerals and my 6.9pH water and let them be. They will adapt. It will take time but I think they can adapt. Too many stories on here, and other forums of people who have nice CRS colonies going in a higher pH water, with no active substrate, etc. On BCAquaria, someone got some of MannaP's shrimp, started with 10, 100 a year later in 7.4pH tap water and inert substrate. I'm done fussing over them, time to man up and suck it up shrimp. lol.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

Did you use the poret foam or generic foam?


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I still use the sosei during water changes even though it doesn't effect my Ph.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

matti2uude said:


> I still use the sosei during water changes even though it doesn't effect my Ph.


Ya, it's supposed to be good for them regardless.



matti2uude said:


> Did you use the poret foam or generic foam?


It's a generic foam from BA's for the moment. I'm moving and buying a new house at some point in the next 12 months, and I plan on building a nice rack then, so if this works how I want, I'll get Poret foam, all the same color, same tanks, everything and build a nice rack. It's pretty decent foam though, holds it shape, not too porous but not too fine.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

I transferred all my shrimp over tonight, 60 in total (including 3 berried) plus the few that were already in there. Acclimated each since they came from a 5pH water to 6.7pH, where the tank is at now after adding a few doses of the Ebiken Sosei. TDS is 140 with Bee gH+, gH is 5 and happily nitrates are 0. lol.


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## Ron (May 15, 2011)

Fishyfishyfishy said:


> Yes, the DI unit will raise the PH. For RO water, it will not be that high. What I do is I have a little valve right before the RO water enters the DI unit, so I can access lower PH water.


Hmmmmm exact opposite to what I find. My RO unit supplies water at ~pH 7.0 and my RO/DI unit is ~pH 5.8.

Thinking of trying out HMF with a Jet Lifter myself, I like the fact that it should start up with out fail after a power outage.


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

Ron said:


> Hmmmmm exact opposite to what I find. My RO unit supplies water at ~pH 7.0 and my RO/DI unit is ~pH 5.8.
> 
> Thinking of trying out HMF with a Jet Lifter myself, I like the fact that it should start up with out fail after a power outage.


wht brand are you using?


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## Ron (May 15, 2011)

camboy012406 said:


> wht brand are you using?


I have a Vertex Puratek 100 and a Vertex Deluxe Puratek 100 RO/DI. I use a MW 801 pH/TDS/condutivity meter.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Hung the lighting, setup my second tank today next to the other after siliconing in all the pieces and flooded it. So far shrimp are liking the tank and the 6.7pH, they are a lot more active, nice and white, molting, berried moms I moved still berried, babies still around the tank. Everyone is very active though. Just a little substrate, moss, bare bottom area and Hamburg Matten filter for the tank. I have a few pieces of lavarock that have been seeded in tanks for a while, so nice and covered in bio-goodies and stuff. Few pieces of cholla wood and that's it. We'll see how it goes when the berried ones give way.

Moving the shrimp over, I only lost 1 and that was my fault 2 days later. I moved over 60 shrimp over, including all 30 SSS/SSS crowns. I had a HOB filter running floss on the tank to clear up the dust, unplugged it, prefilter sponge fell off, a shrimp climbed in when I wasn't looking. Moved that filter to the new tank, turned it on and a shrimp came shooting out, not moving. Impeller must have killed him as he got sucked past it. Sucks, it was an SSS too. Feed him to the other shrimp. Always a good way to tell if a shrimp is dead or stunned. Dead, they jumped on him and him eaten to pieces in 15 minutes.

Second tank is cloudy cause I squeeze a bunch of sponges into to it to get it seeded fast, added some Sosei, Mineral plus, Bio plus and EI under the substrate to help seed it as well.










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The whole purpose of this is to find an economical way to setup a nice rack om the next 6 months to a year.. I'm going to start a new thread on this for ideas on anyone who has done a rack before and wants to offer input.


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## Ron (May 15, 2011)

Has the pH remained fairly steady? I'm waiting for Angel Fins to get 45 ppi foam in and I'll be setting up a couple substrate free tanks and see how they do.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I plan to start breeding tetras soon and I like this filter idea and may try it myself


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

pH is staying at 6.8pH with RO and Ebiken Sosei. 2-3 berried CRS around, TDS is 135 with Bee Mineral gH+ and spotted this the other day.


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## Ron (May 15, 2011)

Thanks for the update. I have my HMFs ordered from Angel Fins, I think I will start with my Neos and Tigers as my CRS tank is still very new and I don't want to waste my Akadama.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Small update.

So far, everyone is doing good. TDS is 155, pH is about 6.9-7.1, probably either depending on my cheapo-ebay pH meter or the amount of CO2 in the water, used by moss and floaters, etc and what time of day I check at, gH is 5, kH 0.

I have about 10 berried CRS/CBS/Golden and I think that's all of the females of age in the tank, haven't noticed any deaths, lots of activity and molting, babies from Ebiken growing nicely, two of them are berried already.

So, so far for the test in a mostly bare bottom, non-active substrate, pH near neutral, HMF and sponge filter only tank, my shrimp are:

- living fine and EXTREMELY active in. - Check
- Growing, molting, no deaths. - Check
- Breeding, getting berried - Check
- Holding to term - So far, first females should be ready to pop soon
- Babies growing up and not dying in the water - No idea yet, although I did transfer over 1 probably week or two old baby and 1 probably month old or so and I still see them in the tank, so they didn't mind it.

So we'll see in probably a week or two when the first batch hatches, if I can see babies a week or two after that and the rest should start dropping day after day or within a few weeks and hopefully they get berried again soon. Even if I don't get a high yield, the babies that do make obviously are genetically superior to the ones that didn't make and would more adapt to live in this water. lol.

I speak to breeder in Eastern Europe and they keep TB's and CRS in like 8pH water, because it's the only RO they can get and active substrate is expensive, and they breed and do ok.

So hopefully within a month, I have a tank full of babies, we'll see.

Couple berried momma's hanging out.










Feeding ball.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

It's looking fantastic.... congratulations. 

Only question I'd ask is, why golden with those nice SSS, but you don't have to answer that ;-)


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

randy said:


> It's looking fantastic.... congratulations.
> 
> Only question I'd ask is, why golden with those nice SSS, but you don't have to answer that ;-)


Only CRS tank I have setup right now, so everyone is bunking together. The tank beside it is cycling with the exact same method and setup with some snails right now. A number of the goldens are females too so they are berried by whoever. Sold off a few of the goldens at the shrimp meet to Tony for a few bucks, so they're not in the tank anymore either.

If I get a decent baby yield, then I'll probably separate them into 2 tanks and pull out nice babies that grow up or give them 1 more generation, then separate.

I've found too big a tank and a low number of shrimp and tonnes of hiding spots, breeding is less. The males don't find the female in that small few hour window they have to mate. In this tank with a fairly dense population (~60 shrimp, including 10 berries hopefully going to add another 50-150 shrimp), I find breeding is more active. I don't want to reduce the population in the tanks too low and kill my breeding, I've been down that road with like 3-4 shrimp in a planted 10gal, no berries. This tank is going good in that aspect.

If the babies can live decent in the water, I should be at a few hundred shrimp in a few months and then I'll have a better chance to separate on who I want to keep in what tank, who to cull and sell off cheap to members to give them a deal, etc but I don't want to reduce my population too much too soon by splitting them up, so the new generation or two can stay in 1 tank.

Plus you never know what you'll get in the mixed tanks. I have a few nice snow white males, SSS-SSS+, SS, a few S grades, some CBS SS+ and above for males and my dark chocolate brown female, a few golden females, not a bad mix. I should get some nice babies to pick and choose from. In the pic above, that S grade is a male but it is a solid bright red and white on it. It's a very nice S, so he stayed. Plus it's always good to mix up the genes for a generation or two. It's not as bad as the pic looks though. lol. I have about 35+ juvi shrimp too young to sex or breed but mostly all SSS or SSS+, 10+ berried females and the other 20 or so shrimp are mostly males with good color, markings, etc.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Very good idea by dividing the tank.
What lighting are you using?


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Jackson said:


> Very good idea by dividing the tank.
> What lighting are you using?


2x23W CFL's in a double reptile dome about 6" hanging over the tank.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Just spotted a few babies in the back, really hard to see with the tank sides but I can see them back there. Either snow white or SSS/SSS+ as they are bone white already, just can't see the headgear yet, too small. lol.

More swimming activity going on, so someone is of age to breed or the female that just released is ready to go again. Spotted a few more of my SSS/SSS+ 's that are female, can see a nice dark saddle in them when they are hanging on the frogbit and the light is shinning through them.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Still good for anyone following, no deaths more and more babies are spotted all the time.

recap for those that don't want to read. lol.

-My active substrate that was buffering down to 5pH started going wonky, releasing nitrates and phosphates and just at the end of its life. Had no babies for months.

-Couldn't get more active substrate/wanted to try a different approach.

-Setup my tank with a Hamburg matten filter and another sponge filter and that's it.

-It's half bare bottom, half inert gravel with moss planted in the substrate and growing into the HMF sponge to create a giant moss wall/sponge filter combo.

-Using RO water with Salty Bee gH+ to 5gH, 140TDS and mix a bit of Ebiken Sosei (fulvic acid) to lower the pH a slight, which puts it at about 6.8-7.0 pH during the course of a day.

-Moved all my shrimp to the tank from a 5pH to 7pH.

-After a month or so of settling in, the berried started and I am seeing more and more babies all over the tank.


The purpose was to see if I could crystals breeding and babies living in a non-active substrate tank and a neutral water and basic sponge wall filter. No canister, no plants, no low pH, and so far seems to be a success.

It was test out of necessity, active substrate was on its way out, car was having troubles, couldn't make the 2 drive to the nearest place to get Netlea soil, no money for soil, so said, lets try. I had just received over 30 SSS/SSS+ very nice colored shrimp from Ebiken , plus my existing golden/crs/cbs and I had to do something as the soil started going wonky about a month after I got my SSS shrimp.

Would I do it again when I setup a new tank or go the active substrate standard method? I'm not sure yet.

Do I recommend or want this to be read as, you can keep crystals without active substrate? No. Everyone's mileage varies, as does there experience. I don't think of myself as a "shrimp master" by any means, but I know MY shrimp and have learned to tell when they seem to be lacking something, when there isn't enough O2 in the water, when it's too hot, when babies are doing good, etc, so I took this on. 

This is simply my experience and a journal to see how things would work out, so don't dump $500 in crystals in a tank with RO water and some gH stuff in it and blame me if they die. lol. With every 0.1 degree of an increase of pH towards 7, ammonia becomes more toxic and over-feeding, water changes, monitoring deaths, births, etc, becomes more important.

Rough count though probably 50+ babies from CBS A grade to SSS+ CRS in there and it seems my females are berried again or more still have to pop, so it seems to be going good as they are berried again. I'm sure I would have a bit better baby survival if I had a separate tank for them or breeder box or whatever, but it's sort of a survival of the fittest tank that I don't mess with, don't dose all kinds of minerals or anything extra and just let them do their thing.


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## camboy012406 (Jun 11, 2010)

getochkn said:


> Still good for anyone following, no deaths more and more babies are spotted all the time.
> 
> recap for those that don't want to read. lol.
> 
> ...


very nice pic please?


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Makes me think I want to switch to those Hamburg Mattenfilters.. if they can really go so long without being cleaned that would be awfully nice. Though I haven't got 20 tanks, nor do I plan to have, filter cleaning is still a chore that's a bit of a PITA.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

camboy012406 said:


> very nice pic please?


Here's a few from my phone, need to get the better camera out to zoom in on the babies, but they mostly hang out in the moss at the back of the tank or the sponge wall from the HMF, so hard to take a pic of but they're lots of them in there.

Output from my fluval internal filter that move the water from behind the HMF









Some munching









Tank shot









Baby SSS









Baby SS









Baby SS on the glass and S on the bottom right on the filter









Couple babies in the moss









Baby SS on the leaf









Shrimp hanging on the sponge wall


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