# Need to treat tank...Advice, please?



## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Ok, so I had two platies, one cherry shrimp and now a female dwarf gourami die on me in intervals of one week. 

One of the platies that died was observed for one day to have laboured breathing (occasionally flying to the surface to get some air before coming back down to the bottom), and the female gourami did the same. 
The gourami died within 2 hours of said behaviour (or at least from the time I noticed it). The gourami was very slow compared to her normal swimming.
The other platy, I just found dead in the morning.

No other odd behaviours by these fish or the remaining fish. There is some flashing by the platies, but it's pretty rare-just here and there, so I don't think it's due to a problem.

I tried to do a 25% water change when the platy started breathing hard, but that didn't help, and didn't even get to it with the gourami.

Anyways, I'm worried that there might be a bacterial problem in my tank.

Stats on the tank, and its inhabitants:
freshwater 30 gallon
marineland filter with biowheel
3 clown loaches
5 platies
one gourami
cherry shrimp
crystal shrimp
siamese algae eater
a lot of plants
1" of gravel

I check the chemistry of the water 2-3 times a week, and do a weekly 20% water change. 
PH 6.5
nitrates 10-20
nitrites non-existant
amonia non-existant
GH 8
temp is 78

So anyways, my question:
1 . I was thinking of either treating it with aquarium salt or with Quick Cure, both of which seem to be popular suggestions on the web, but since I have experience with neither, I thought I'd ask you experts first on which one to use and how  
I'm worried about the loaches and plants (although if the fish are sick and need treatment, and that's what it takes, I'll kill the plants).

2. I'm not sure whether to take out the carbon filter or not while using the QuickCure or salt.

3. I can also increase the temperature, but I'm not sure how that will affect all the aforementioned inhabitants.

4. Finally, how long do I keep up your suggested treatment up for? 

5. Anything else I should know?

thanks a lot in advance!!


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Hi

How long have you had these fish?

It sounds like they suffocated. It could also be that they had ich but you did not see it because it was in their gills. I say this because you mentioned you have seen some of the platties flash. From what I know they dont do this like some fish to show dominance.

It could also be a few other types of parasites that attack the gills of fish.

Do you have an air stone in there?

quick cure might kill the shrimp and loaches. 

I would watch them all and see what happens before you start using harsh meds. Raise the temp a bit ( not sure if this will kill the shrimp or plants ) and add salt. Try to step up the water changes 20% twice a week is better.

What do you feed the fish and do any of them look skinny?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

How long has the tank been up?

I don't think it would be something attacking the gills - the gourami should have been the last to go then, as it would have had it's labyrinth organ to fall back on.

I would be hesitant to do anything without knowing better - the quick cure as mentioned before will kill your inverts (Shrimp and snails), as well as harm the loaches (possibly kill them), and either kill or stunt the growth of your plants.

Raising the temp in your tank will only accelerate the progression of a disease, and without knowing what you're dealing with, I'd be hesitant to do so.

The salt will not agree terribly well with some of the plants; as well, the loaches and shrimp may not take kindly to the salinity change.

How long has the tank been set up and running?
When were these fish added? Were they acclimated?
Anything else change recently in the tank?
What water do you use for water changes? Do you use any conditioners or treatments?


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> How long has the tank been up?
> 
> I don't think it would be something attacking the gills - the gourami should have been the last to go then, as it would have had it's labyrinth organ to fall back on.
> 
> ...


Salt wont bother the loaches if used as dierected or even @ 3/4 the the recommended amount. 
Shrimp and plants are not my thing. 
I think gouramis are sensitive fish and even with the labyrinth organ there is no guarantee it would be the last to go. How long could the fish depend on this organ to act as a second set of gills when it's gills are infested? Plus the stress of having to rely on the organ and having to stay near the surface wont help much and if the fish is not near the suface suffocation is going to happen 100% of the time with no gill function. I also think having to keep this up for a long period of time would cause the fish to get tierd and give up.

This sounds like a good old case of SDS but these are not the right fish. If you had Datnoids that would be the case.

I really dont know what it is but the first thing that pops in my head are the gills or lack of oxygen.


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## Katalyst (Jul 29, 2007)

Nitrates of 20 are toxic to fish and even more so to shrimp. I'd do a 40% water change to start. Quick cure isn't very loach or shrimp friendly either unfortunately. Parasite clear, prazi pro or pure praziquantel powder (prazi pond) works fine with most inverts & loaches. I'd do the large water change and observe how they are before adding any meds and keep your eye on your nitrates. If you still plan on using the quick cure I'd start with a half dosage and see how the fish react.


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

Katalyst said:


> Nitrates of 20 are toxic to fish and even more so to shrimp. I'd do a 40% water change to start. Quick cure isn't very loach or shrimp friendly either unfortunately. Parasite clear, prazi pro or pure praziquantel powder (prazi pro) works fine with most inverts including shrimp. I'd do the large water change and observe how they are before adding any meds and keep your eye on your nitrates.


Oh thats right I used 2x the dose ( prazipro ) and the shrimp stayed alive. Dont use 2x the dose I dont recommend this. I was desperate and it worked out for me. Does not mean it will do so for others.


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies!

The tank has been up about 4 months.

Nitrates rarely reach 20. If they're at 20, there's an early water change.

Some fish have been living in the tank for the 4 months, others are less. Most-recent are the gouramis, but the platies died before them coming. I've been adding a new plant every month or so.

I do acclimate the fish.

Water is tap water, treated with big al's stuff for chlorine (prior to being added to the tank). Just prior to the first fish dying, I added some bacteria culture (multi-purpose bio support) to the tank, on BA guy's advice. Not sure if that was the cause of the fish dying a few days later, but I cut that off just incase. No other additives to the water

The flashing is very sporadic (if I watch the fish for a long time, one of the fish will do it in maybe half an hour, usually less often, and it's not always the same fish).

No air stone, as I felt the tank is heavily-planted, and the fish are generally pretty active. 

None of the fish look skinny. Loaches eat sinking carnivore pallets and some occasional sinking algae pallets, everyone gets regular flake food, occasional dried bloodworm, and occasional spirulina flakes.

I've been watching them for the past month or so, since the first fish died, and I'm worried because by the time I see something, and start the more-frequent water changes when I do, it's too late (with the platy), and with a 2-hour warning with the gourami, definitely not enough, so I was thinking of doing something before any of the other fish get sick (if they're not already).

Prazipro is for internal parasites, right? 

So from the above responses, I'm thinking 3/4 of the recommended aquarium salt dose, as well as prazipro, will leave the quickcure out as well as the temprature raise, for now. How long would you keep those up?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Probably something in the bacterial culture stuff. IMO, the stuff is highly suspect. 

I'd continue with water changes to see if they clear things up.

How's your surface agitation? If your tank is too well planted, fish and inverts can suffocate at night - one of my tanks requires a lot of surface agitation at night or everything starts to suffocate.

If you're seeing sporadic flashing, you may have flukes too. The prazi should take care of that.

@Jackson, the Labyrinth organ can carry these fish over for a very long time. They've evolved in hypoxic pools in the forest where decaying plant matter often robs the pools of oxygen. 
That being said, I suppose if a bacterial infection attacked all mucus membranes, the labyrinth would fail too. But in my experience gouramis are pretty hardy little guys.


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Surface agitation is very good. (except for the corner that the gourami nested up) 



ameekplec. said:


> Probably something in the bacterial culture stuff. IMO, the stuff is highly suspect.
> 
> I'd continue with water changes to see if they clear things up.
> 
> ...


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Why are you adding "multi-purpose bio support" into your tank? That's very typical of BA. My sister says the BA guy said the same thing. So her husband continues to keep adding that stuff in long after the tank was cycled. And that's against my advice not to do so. He thinks the BA guy knows more than I do, LOL. Now, his tank sits fishless for the last half a year. I'll just wait until he can't stand it and then I'll help him help, by taking his tank.

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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

The aquarium guy said that there will be better filtration...anyways, I don't use it...I used it once and that was over a month ago.



Zebrapl3co said:


> Why are you adding "multi-purpose bio support" into your tank? That's very typical of BA. My sister says the BA guy said the same thing. So her husband continues to keep adding that stuff in long after the tank was cycled. And that's against my advice not to do so. He thinks the BA guy knows more than I do, LOL. Now, his tank sits fishless for the last half a year. I'll just wait until he can't stand it and then I'll help him help, by taking his tank.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Zebrapl3co said:


> Now, his tank sits fishless for the last half a year. I'll just wait until he can't stand it and then I'll help him help, by taking his tank.


lol. Hope he has a nice set up


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Loachster said:


> The aquarium guy said that there will be better filtration...anyways, I don't use it...I used it once and that was over a month ago.


Sorry, I was cut off because my manager walked in. So I just click save and then closed the window.
Anyway, I was originally thinking that the bio support solution might contain some kind of amonia to feed the bacteria. Ammonia as you might guess, is bad for the fish hence gill burns.
If possible, let your tab water sit for 10 mins after adding BA's dechlorinator before you do your water change. When you're done with that bottle, go out and buy yourself a better dechlor product like Seachem Prime. It's much more reliable.
Over feeding sometimes can trigger a cycle. So scale down on your feeding for 2 weeks to see what happens. (as in don't feed so much, not stop feeding for 2 weeks).
How are the loaches? Do they come up for air as well? If they do, then it's definately water issue. Either not enough oxygen or bad water.
I am just currios though, what lead you to believe it's a bacteria problem? If you think that is the case, then you should treat your tank with Melafix or PrimaFix for a week and then do a water change. These are herbalistic medicine and are very safe. Although, the only time you might not want to do this is when your tanks are cycling.
Aside from that, I can only think of using antibiotics, but that is very extreme and that you're 100% sure it's a bacteria problem.
One sign of a bacteria problem is like people getting the flu. Yesterday, the fish was fine and eating and today it's dead or you can see it rapidly get sick and died. Usually, in these cases, I net the fish out and put it in a hospital tanks and treat that tank with melafix and primafix both. They usualy get better in a week and I put it back in with the rest of the group. But that is odd, usually bacteria problem comes in the spring and summer. It's kind of early for bacteria blooms.

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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> @Jackson, the Labyrinth organ can carry these fish over for a very long time. They've evolved in hypoxic pools in the forest where decaying plant matter often robs the pools of oxygen.
> That being said, I suppose if a bacterial infection attacked all mucus membranes, the labyrinth would fail too. But in my experience gouramis are pretty hardy little guys.


Thanks man that is pretty cool.

I still find they dont handle stress well at all. Maybe it died because it was just bought and did not settle in well.

I am not a plant guy but maybe you introduced something to the tank off of the plants. Ameekplec can this happen? There was a new plant put in every month or so.

I hope you figure out what the problem is and all the fish do well. Let us know if any other fish die.

Godd luck


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Zebrapl3co: 
I check for amonia twice a week, none is detectable.
I will definitely switch chlorine/chloramine treatment products once BA's is out, and will start letting it sit.
Loaches seem fine...digging up plants and exploring the tank as usual. they rarely reach the surface (only if they are absolutely sure it IS bloodworm on the surface, and their eyes aren't deceiving them) 
I believe it's a bacteria problem because 3 fish died within a month, one within 2 hours of showing symptoms, one sometime overnight, and one two days after showing them. Also, as someone else mentioned in this thread, even occasional flashing by the fish may mean a problem. 
I got melafix as well today. Guy at the store (different BA, and this guy seems to know his stuff) suggested I give the fish the melafix 3 days after the prazipro.

So now the tank has prazipro and aquarium salt (both at 3/4 of the manufacturer's suggested ratio). 
Both were mixed in with the new water and then slowly added to the tank. 
Fish seem ok with it, shrimp were a bit jumpy for a bit before settling down.

Will keep everyone posted...Thanks for all the suggestions!!!


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## Prodicus (Nov 3, 2008)

I really have no idea what might be the cause. 

But recently a friend of mine lost a bunch of fish to an anaerobic bacteria 
bloom. So the ammonia and nitrite were 0 but the he lost a bunch of fish
anyway. But this was with a canister filter, so it doesn't really fit with 
your situation. I know substrate can have anaerobic blooms, but I don't 
know if this fits your situation.


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

I think ZP might have hit something with the biosupport BA BS. It might contain ammonia or some other nutrient to support the bacteria. It may have been a solution in there, or the resultant bacteria boom, or the successive bust and mass die off, etc etc etc. Could have been any number of things.

At this point, I'd just try to keep the water as clean as possible, reduce feedings if necessary and just observe.

@Jackson, I have found over the years that the hardiest fish I have had are the gouramis. But if newly introduced, like any fish it will be stressed as hell, and so may have been immunocompromised already.

There is a distinct possibility that you've introduced something with your plants too - but the cloudiness and sudden appearance of symptoms seems more indicative that there is something to do with that.


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Stupid biosupport junk...If BA really wants the $3 so bad, I'd gladly just put it in a donation box on my way out the store, and save all this trouble and suffering from the fish :/

Anyways, no help from the internal parasite/fluke stuff. Salt water wasn't helping either. More fish started flashing (although that could have been because of the change in water and chemicals). Shrimp have all died, as well as most of the snails. 3 day course is over. 

They are now on the third day of Melafix (a friend swears by it for almost any problem). Room smells like Eucalyptus, but the fish seem to be doing a lot less flashing. Clown loaches are a bit lethargic, but they are eating and not breathing too hard, so hopefully they're ok. If there is still flashing going on tomorrow, I think I'll raise the temperature to 82 for a couple of days.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Darn, I didn't hear from you for a few days, so I thought you're doing good. Sorry, should have warn you about the smell. Keep up with the melafix, but don't raise the temperature. Don't want to speed up what ever is in there until you know what's in your tank. Try aerating your tank instead (as in, put an airstone to pump some air into the tank). Oxygenated water is good for the fish any way. But you might want to keep an eye on algae tough.
Look for signs of ick in the tank. They are white dots that cover the entire body of the fish. Clown loaches are very sucsepable to ick.

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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

It's ok...I can live with the smell...not sure how much my fish like it, though 

I did put in an airstone in there when the meds started, as I assumed all the meds will make the water less-pleasant for the fish.

I will keep an eye out for ick. so far, nothing



Zebrapl3co said:


> Darn, I didn't hear from you for a few days, so I thought you're doing good. Sorry, should have warn you about the smell. Keep up with the melafix, but don't raise the temperature. Don't want to speed up what ever is in there until you know what's in your tank. Try aerating your tank instead (as in, put an airstone to pump some air into the tank). Oxygenated water is good for the fish any way. But you might want to keep an eye on algae tough.
> Look for signs of ick in the tank. They are white dots that cover the entire body of the fish. Clown loaches are very sucsepable to ick.


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Ok, so it's time to test the water chemistry again...
with approx. 1 tbsp aquarium salt (not marine salt) per 5 gal, do I use the saltwater test chemicals or freshwater? 

thx!


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Anyone on the aforementioned test?

Update: most fish stopped flashing. Gourami has resumed obsessive nest-building, male platy is horny again, courting even the female gourami.  
One adult platy still flashing occasionally, and one 2-month-old platy (the smallest one by a fair margin than some of the others-may have been sick from birth) flashing a couple of times an hour (several flashes at a session against the same ornament-maybe it's playing?). Melafix course is into its sixth day, but I think I'll cut it a day early (instead of seven days), as the clown loaches seem to be taking it pretty badly.

Thinking of giving the fish Jungle Antibacterial Medicated Food to get rid of the remaining platies irritation (and possible lingering side-effect-free infection in the rest)...thoughts?


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## ameekplec. (May 1, 2008)

Use freshwater test kits - they're mostly the same things anyways.

Good thing you put an airstone in with the Pima/mela. It really lowers your dissolved oxygen when you treat with meds (Pima/Mela in particular, I find), so it's a must to aerate, else you further stress and push your fish over the edge.

Good to hear everything is looking up. I'm sure with good maintenance, and no more BA BS, your tank will be fine.





I like the Pima/Mela smell.....


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

ameekplec. said:


> Use freshwater test kits - they're mostly the same things anyways.
> 
> I like the Pima/Mela smell.....


Yeah, the chemicals are mostly-shared (only one or two aren't), but the cards with the colour gradients are different for the results of each...

I grew to like the smell too...I'm going to add it to my morning tea!


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## Loachster (Mar 5, 2009)

Update: 3 days without a fish flashing. Loaches are getting frisky again, gourami obsessively-maintaining nest, female gourami chased around by both male gourami and male platy (even caught the gouramis mating after the last big water change!!), all platies hungry and very active. Looks like the problem's licked. 

Unless the fluke meds and salt water had a delayed effect, it looks like the melafix was the thing that did it. I did start the fish on a Jungle anti-bacterial medicated food (they're on day 2 of 5), just incase.

shrimp have all unfortunately died (fluke meds--warning wasn't explicit enough...if you use it, REMOVE ALL SHRIMP AND SNAILS), as did most of the snails.

Suspected culprits: 
-Big Al's yellow bottle of bio assist
-sick new fish (albeit fish started flashing almost 3 weeks after it being added)
-disease that came on a plant (2 weeks or so prior to first acting up)

thanks for your suggestions, everyone!

I'll post in this thread only if recurrence takes place


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