# CBS and CRS Hinos



## Beijing08

Hey Anna, show us a picture of your pure red lines

_Edit: Thread pertains to this thread: http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21321_


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## bettaforu

The Hinos in the tank are PRL if you go look at Flazky post you can see his.

Those CRS are from NON golden genes, and bred specifically to enhance the white areas, my supplier has never crossed his CRS with any goldens and has some of the best white on CRS I have seen outside of Japan/Asia.

Not all PRL will have the red legs that everyone is looking for, those are highly prized and you are very lucky if you get any, will pay big bucks for those I would imagine.


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## Beijing08

Japan Pure Lines are to my understanding sorted into their own breeders' lines. For instance, Ebi-Ten, or Crimson, or any other breeder store, with their own unique features. Which line did your breeder's come from? 
I'm interested in buying if you can trace back to the "pure line"


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## bettaforu

Yes that maybe correct IF you are buying them direct from a Japanese breeder! However my breeder is in the US...these are Pure Red Lines, never crossed with goldens, and he has bred many generations of this type of shrimp, which is why they are a more solid brighter white than most.

If you want Japan Pure Red Lines, you will need to find someone who can get them direct from Asia/Japan, sorry but I don't have that connection.


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## Ebi-Ken

bettaforu said:


> Yes that maybe correct IF you are buying them direct from a Japanese breeder!


Does that mean mine aren't JPRL if I purchased from Taiwan? Use wording carefully, its originate or using the same line breeding method as those who first achieved the line.



bettaforu said:


> However my breeder is in the US...these are Pure Red Lines, never crossed with goldens, and he has bred many generations of this type of shrimp, which is why they are a more solid brighter white than most.


Just because they have not crossed with golden lines. Doesn't mean that it is pure. It can mean pure in the perspective of the US breeder, but how can the breeder be so sure that his shrimp where he originally obtained it from were not crossed. But as a vendor (seller) you should be able to stand by the things you sell and be able to depict what is what. I just looked at Flazy's pictures All of them show fading of the red once it nears the legs indicating it is not pure. Pure lines, your right does not need solid legs, BUT have partially full legs. Also cracking, since it is an SS grades would not be this evident due to line breeding. If you just cross S grades which are pure. You cannot get the next grade. You need to select more white to get to the next grade for higher gene expression of white which is why it wouldn't crack or minimal cracks in SS grade. The only reason why alot of people who sell SS have cracks is because they did it the short cut way of crossing snow white which shows none to minimal evidence of yellowing but cracks because the gene expression of white in the first few generatons is weak. and with golden bee genes it is self explanatory.


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## bettaforu

Well I purchased many of these shrimp from this breeder based on his statement that his have never been crossed on goldens or whites, I was specifica about that, and he said NO, so I have to go with that! I trust him and he's never let me down yet, so regardless of what you say, I have to believe him.

Basically anyone can say whatever they like nowadays as to their specific breeding lines, we have only their word for it! I am not about to call this particular breeder a liar, IF he says his are Pure Red Lines...I believe him.

IF people don't want to buy from me, that's up to them...I get the best I can for my customers!

You were selling Red Lines too if I remember correctly...so why aren't you doing that now? Im sure people here would buy from you....you seem to be the expert breeder!


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## Ebi-Ken

Agreed, what your doing for the hobby in excelling the rate at what people are able to obtain I commend you for. However, I also educate which is why I correct people wherever it is necessary like snausage on TPT about mineral rock. But it is also the responsibility of the seller to know what they are selling. Just because you are told one thing doesn't mean it is factual.


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## Flazky

hmm.. so I take it that the shrimp I got arent jprl? =(


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## bettaforu

Makco, your shrimps are Pure Red Lines. I just got conformation from my supplier/who has been breeding them for 5 years. He bought them from Japan and Taiwan!

Never have been crossed on either goldens or whites! 

Im not going to continue this thread as it is clear it is meant to imply that I have done something wrong, which I have not. I brought in Pure Red lines not crossed on white or goldens and that is what I sold. I think I have explained far enough! 

Any further conversations can be done by private messages, as per the Moderator!


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## spicspan

Im not sure who your suppliers are but I'm pretty sure their not pure red lines.

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/5172-Pure-Red-Line/page4

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/foru...4-Japanese-Pure-Red-Line-Red-Bee-Shrimp/page2

I think a bit more research is need my dear.

And only the lower grades prl sometimes have white/pinkish legs, the higher grade true prl should have red legs. If your hinos are true prl, then it should be red legs. Those should have cost you 250-300 a piece.

Either or, they are beauts.



bettaforu said:


> Shrimps pictured on day of arrival from US.
> 
> I have quite a lot of these very nice shrimps for sale yet. I will be coming out to Franks aquarium plaza on Kennedy Rd next weekend (SAT) 29th. I can bring some out if anyone wants any.
> 
> I have Black Crystal and Red Crystal Hinos going for $15 each, minimum is 4
> I will include some dried Oak Leaves and floating plants for free to help start you on your way to a really good quality Crystal shrimp tank.
> 
> Please let me know before Friday 28th, as after that it will be probably a month before I am out this way again.
> 
> For references, please check my Itrader report, and read what others have said on the Invertebrates section...you might see crystal shrimps in LFS stores but these are NOT pure red lines!


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## bettaforu

Please read this post from another forum! Not all PRLs can be the *quality* of Silane's, otherwise you would be paying $$$ for them.

http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7909


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## Ciddian

*What makes a shrimp a (insert name here)*

OKay.. This is an official thread for you shrimp-heads that wanna debate the quality of x shrimp and what qualifies that to be x shrimp..

Can you tell I have no idea about shrimp? 

This thread is not intended to attack other members but to have a fair debate about the invert in question.

Please. from now on keep hijack stuff out of the sales threads.

If you have an issue with the quality of someones stock. Its best to PM them.

Kay?! Now Party!


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## Chris S

Just to reiterate here:

The moderation team has moved these posts over and created a new thread for the discussion.

In the future, if you want to discuss a buy/sell post, please provide a link in the original thread to a new thread created to discuss in one of the applicable discussion areas. It is your responsibility to do so, we will not do this every time. Discussion in buy/sell threads WILL be deleted without prejudice.

We encourage discussion here, as long as it is civil and approriate with the rules and guidelines of the forums, which, as of this time, this thread is.

If this thread strays from those guidelines, I will have no problem deleting it. Please keep the thread interesting and clear of personal attacks. Thanks guys.


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## bettaforu

I have written conformation from my supplier that he has been (not selectively) breeding these for 5 years. His original shrimps *were *purchased from top breeders in Japan and Taiwan, and are Pure Red Lines!

These maybe not the kind of *quality* of Silane's which are very selectively bred, and are worth much more $$$ but nonetheless they are pure red lines and not crossed on whites or goldens.

People can buy the more expensive shrimps from overseas if that's what they want to do, but for the most of us (myself included) cannot afford/will not pay even $50 per shrimp for something that might only live for a few months to a year (maybe even less due to stress from shipping)

The shrimps I have brought in from my supplier in the US are the best I and many on this forum, can afford to start with. Maybe we will never attain the 
coloration/body type of Silane's quality, but at least we are going to attempt to improve on what we already have here.

We have to start somewhere, best to start with what your pocket can afford!
I did this with horses (off topic I know) but I eventually bred and exported several National Champions, all bred from a lowly mare that no one wanted!

Shrimps are no different...do the selection and one day you might just get those gorgeous looking ones that Silane has! He has the best that I have seen anywhere, so far.


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## Zebrapl3co

Guys, I've been sitting on the sideline not wanting to get involve in this argument. But here is some thing you might want to think about and look into.
A) 5 years a go, I don't think there is even the term PRL.
B) having all red legs is by no means is an indication of PRL.
C) If you are basing all your comparison on a few of Silane's shrimps then you've been thrown off from the very start.

The orginal CRS maxed out at SS. Hisayasu Suzuki was the founding breeder. A group of followers came after him, two groups that I know of MFF and ASSA (Assa in my opinion, being the better of the two). They all maxed out with the original CRS at SS and can't break that barrier.
On another front (don't know of the time frame), Suzuki; the orginal breeder, had patented the term Crystal Red Shrimp in Japan. He started filing lawsuit against all other breeders from using the term Crystal Red Shrimp. That's where the term Red Bee shrimp comes from as the other breeders (including ASSA) have to called CRS something else.
Then out of no where, some Japanese groups broke out with the SSS. How they did this is still a secret as they never disclosed this. But I think they cross it with some thing else. CBS? golden? (Keep this in mind, golden shrimp started appearing 1/2 year after the introduction of SSS appear).
Some tips on golden crosses:
1) golden offspring
2) weak white body that gives you basically 3 colours. Very white head, red body and weak white body.
3) again 3 colour, white head with red colour and pink body colour where it should be white.
4) Yellowing on the white? - this point I am not so sure on, but a golden exibit a yellow body.

There are two types of claims to PRL. Some say it's the orginal line from Hisayasu Suzuki while others say it's a refinning of the golden cross SSS to the point where they breed true giving strong red and white.
If you ever get you hands on some of Hisayasu Suzuki's shrimps, I can tell you, the white on the body is just as white and thick as the head.
Some thing else, I've came across several post of people claiming to be able to refine their golden cross to the point that they breed true strong red and white off spring. I don't know if this is true or not, but if it is, does it really matter if it's PRL or not?

The Japanese breeders aren't going to disclose their secrets. Almost every breeders keeps something back. We all tried to get something that looks like what Assa is producting. Why don't you guys tried working on that?

Another thing you might want to keep in mind. Silane is 2 years behind Assa. That's like 6 generation if you know what you're doing. 
Click on the Japanese sites and have a look at the Japanese PRLs.

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## jimmyjam

I agree with Frank with his statement, however, Im interested about the source of your breeder. Who do you get your hinos from. I was also under the impression that most high grade JPRL have red-redish legs, and that is one of their selling features amongst the other ones we have listed. I understand that a lot of the lower grades do not have red legs, but at the grades of SS hino such as the ones you have acquired, I suspect that you should have at least a few in the stock with red legs, depending on the genes you are getting (I'm guessing its a recessive trait). 

I understand your source gets them from taiwan/jap, but who is your source and who is the original source? There are only a few well known lines, and if their big enough to export internationally in a large scale then they must be well known. 

I guess what everyone would like to know if their buying from you is some hard evidence since this is such a sensitive subject. Bc if I know 100% that they are JPRL and your selling hinos for 15 bucks, I would take at least 10 off your hands this week . I cant even buy s grades in store for that much, let along JPRL HInos, no matter what their line is.


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## bettaforu

Sorry Jimmyjam, but after I ship out to BC and deliver the rest to my customers I am all out of these. I probably won't be getting any more in as this was a one time deal, I bought all of the remaining stock.

If I had of known you were interested I could have kept some back! I did post the ad in plenty of time for everyone to get in on the deal.


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## jimmyjam

aww ok maybe next time.. well either or can we all get the source of your shrimps to end this matter. To get everyone on the same page, can you answer the questions above? Im really curious as to what the gene line is and your source/ as well as the original breeder of this PRL.


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## Byronicle

are these not shrimp we are talking about? I mean they look like they are worth the $, I would buy some if I had a spare tank.

what does it matter anyways, i mean people always argue about genetics and what not but usually when it comes to dogs/cats you spend big bucks to get an animal with healthy genes so your not spending thousands of dollars in medical bills

my 1st german shepherd was $500 but ended up spending almost $7 grand on medical bills which he later died of medical implications

2nd german shepherd checked out his genes, got lots of good reviews and paid a grand total of $5 grand for him but this breeder is well known to produce healthy german shepherds. so we have a great chance of having a healthy dog and therefore not having to spend so much in the long run

in this shrimp case its aesthetics, so in my opinion if you think that these Hinos or whatever are worth $15 but cost SOOO much more at stores, then are they not a bargain...


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## bettaforu

I think I have answered all that is necessary! I find it an insult to ask me to divulge my private dealings, I would not ask you to do that! 

I put out feelers on the web for prl lines, was contacted by a breeder who was shutting down some of his tanks to concentrate on another program, and I purchased ALL of what stock he had left of these...over 100+ 

People who bought them from me will reap the rewards down the line if they selectively breed them, if not them they are just nice quality CRS, and they didn't pay over the moon for them either. The price was a very good deal on this quality, better than what many others offer, including any LFS in GTA. 

There are none left, so lets move on to something more interesting....how about GREEN HULKS that are coming out in the spring????


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## msnikkistar

bettaforu said:


> Please read this post from another forum! Not all PRLs can be the *quality* of Silane's, otherwise you would be paying $$$ for them.
> 
> http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7909


First and foremost, even if these shrimp are not PRL, they are still worth the $15 a piece price Anna is asking for. It's a relatively good price to be selling at, and whether or not it is, shouldn't deter anyone from buying.

With that said, claiming something as a PRL and selling it as such, the seller needs to be SURE that is what they are selling, or else it is liable to be bad on their end with a lot of angry customers. Which is not something I think Anna is intentionally trying to do. I believe her supplier wasn't as truthful to her.

As for your SCAPE post. Tonysok's CRS are *NOT* PRL. Beautiful shrimp, none the less, but not PRL. How would I know?
Here is a picture he posted...








Notice the SSS+ Mosura Crown in the picture to the right. JPRL/PRL can *NOT* produce head gear like that. That means at some point, goldens were introduced into that breeding stock to achieve head gear patterning. That is a key indicator that it is not PRL. Now, that doesn't mean his shrimp are any less beautiful. Their coloring is still very nice, and worth buying. But it means that they are not PRL, and should not be advertised as such.

Now here is a picture of a JPRL that Frank posted awhile back on TPT.








Now, people are right, there isn't ALWAYS red in the legs, but there is usually some form of color. Red, white, or mix. Notice the intensity of the red and white color in this shrimp and there is no "cracking" in the white. Cracking only occurs (correct me if I am wrong) when there are some form of golden gene in it as JPRL don't have the impurities from the goldens.

Now, if cracking in the carapace occurs, they are definitely not PRL. Also, as previously stated, getting SS Hino JPRL is something only the master shrimpers have achieved thus far, and yes they have SSS now, but those are even more rare and just recently attained. If a S/S+ goes for $25 a piece, the SS goes for about 350 and up a piece.

That is not saying Anna's shrimp aren't worth getting, but I highly doubt these are PRL, and I believe her supplier lied to her about the line. But I would still buy them without the label of PRL.


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## bettaforu

Here is one of my own berried females from the same stock (sorry pics are not clear, she wasn't co-operating) you can see she does have red on her legs...not a lot but yes she does....and NO head gear! BTW Tonysok is not my supplier, in case anyone was wondering about that.










BTW : I do have written email conformation from my supplier that his were never crossed on goldens/whites and that he did originally purchase his stock from Japan and Taiwan, having said that It was good enough for me. I bought the stock.


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## spicspan

Your right, the price has never been a issue. The issue is you making false claims to your product. I'm not sure if its your source that is has provided you with the false claim, or its you that is making a false claim, but I still have not seen any hard evidence that they are what you say they are. I also dont understand why you would take offence to jimmyjam asking you for your source considering we are buying from your source. IT stopped being personal business when you decided to make a small business out of us.

We love shrimps that is why this has stirred up so much crap. No one likes to be miss informed. When someone like frank and Beijing and others who are the leading guys who I learn from on this forum questioning your source, and Jimmy jam just asking nicely to prove your source, I think its our right to know the truth and have some substantial backing of this information. It brings the quality of the our shrimps down, and totally ruins a growing hobby.

In regards to your picture: I can't see anything, another brush off on proof. If you would like to be in people's good books and be a reputable shrimp source in this town, I suggest to be a bit more cooperative when it comes to your customers. I dont understand why you are making things personal, its business for you..well kinda , since you dont pay taxes or a BIN/corp number.

SO please

1) get some good pics of your JPRL
2) disclose your/our source 
3) which line of shrimps are they originally from?

I think thats all it takes for this matter to be put to rest. Otherwise your reputation might just slip a bit more like on some of the other forums, and previous posts.



msnikkistar said:


> First and foremost, even if these shrimp are not PRL, they are still worth the $15 a piece price Anna is asking for. It's a relatively good price to be selling at, and whether or not it is, shouldn't deter anyone from buying.
> 
> With that said, claiming something as a PRL and selling it as such, the seller needs to be SURE that is what they are selling, or else it is liable to be bad on their end with a lot of angry customers. Which is not something I think Anna is intentionally trying to do. I believe her supplier wasn't as truthful to her.
> 
> As for your SCAPE post. Tonysok's CRS are *NOT* PRL. Beautiful shrimp, none the less, but not PRL. How would I know?
> Here is a picture he posted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the SSS+ Mosura Crown in the picture to the right. JPRL/PRL can *NOT* produce head gear like that. That means at some point, goldens were introduced into that breeding stock to achieve head gear patterning. That is a key indicator that it is not PRL. Now, that doesn't mean his shrimp are any less beautiful. Their coloring is still very nice, and worth buying. But it means that they are not PRL, and should not be advertised as such.
> 
> Now here is a picture of a JPRL that Frank posted awhile back on TPT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, people are right, there isn't ALWAYS red in the legs, but there is usually some form of color. Red, white, or mix. Notice the intensity of the red and white color in this shrimp and there is no "cracking" in the white. Cracking only occurs (correct me if I am wrong) when there are some form of golden gene in it as JPRL don't have the impurities from the goldens.
> 
> Now, if cracking in the carapace occurs, they are definitely not PRL. Also, as previously stated, getting SS Hino JPRL is something only the master shrimpers have achieved thus far, and yes they have SSS now, but those are even more rare and just recently attained. If a S/S+ goes for $25 a piece, the SS goes for about 350 and up a piece.
> 
> That is not saying Anna's shrimp aren't worth getting, but I highly doubt these are PRL, and I believe her supplier lied to her about the line. But I would still buy them without the label of PRL.


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## ameekplec.

There will be no more calling out for Bettaforu's breeder/supplier. Wherever these shrimps came from, either you trust the source (the seller, or the seller's supplier), or you don't and leave it at that.

If anybody wants to divulge their supplier, then so be it. But if they don't want to, then that's perfectly fine too. If I go into a store and ask them what supplier they used for their premium Australian SPS corals or wild Amazonian Discus and true Altums, chances are they won't tell you - and I don't expect them to either. That's their business "secret", and if they want to share it, then good for me. If not, suck it up and move on.

As with anything on the internet, and elsewhere - you have the choice to believe it or not whatever "facts" or "fictions" you're presented with.

__________________________________

Now back to the topic at hand. At any rate, for $15, these shrimpies look great. I can't wait to have more from Frank...it's almost Chinese New year!! (hint hint hint.....)


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## spicspan

Thats fine, but it does nothing for our hobby in the future to let mediocracy prevail. But i do understand being a mod, you want to diffuse the situation.

I will drop the topic, but I think this thread speaks volumes.


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## ameekplec.

spicspan said:


> Thats fine, but it does nothing for our hobby in the future to let mediocracy prevail. But i do understand being a mod, you want to diffuse the situation.
> 
> I will drop the topic, but I think this thread speaks volumes.


It's one thing for one person to voice a difference of opinion and have an informative discourse on the topic of "purity" of genetic strains. It's another for a group of people to go on a witch hunt, deserved or otherwise. It's not about mediocrity - it's about beating a dead horse.

I'm all for the discussion of source stocks and lineage - it's a contentious topic everywhere: cichlids, apistos, corals, etc. I myself get swept up in it when it comes to named/lineaged SPS corals - but what makes for a good thread/discussion is the definition of these stocks with clear identifiers and lively debate about what delineates particular strains from one and another. We're seeing a bit of that here in this thread which is great for the knowledge and education of shrimpheads here and everywhere. However, haranguing time and time again for someone to give up their source's name adds nothing to the topic. The OP doesn't want to give it, so move on. No means no


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## spicspan

A witch hunt my friend is back up by slander and miss information. I think we have stated enough facts about the topic to have a good educated background to identify these shrimps. How can you be so blind to dismiss this topic when.

1) There has been no evidence stating the validity of these claims
2) vivid pictures of stock by Flasky (a customer) has shown the false identification of these shrimps
3) the picture she posted showed no evidence as both CRs and JPRL can have red legs, and no good formation of the body was taken. 
4) the such low price for hinos/ no entry (another reason why some breeders here are not happy, if it is true jprl, it is devaluing its stock.
5) anyone can say.. hey I have a email confirmation.

Beat a old horse. Sure. If she does not wish to disclose her source, thats fine. But there are still two other variables to identify these shrimp on as I stated above vividly in a sequential numbered fashion. I will repeat it below.

1) What is the genetic lineage. All JPRL fall into a category, or a specific lineage.
2) show some vivid pictures: perhaps a dorsal view and side view of a few shrimps to identify them. The prerequisites are stated above and there are specific parameters for each lineage. I think we can agree its pretty easy to do so, and easy way to clear your name in a democratic fashion.

With all this being said, I understand if you would not want to participate, so this will be my last post on this topic, unless some good facts come through.

Just remember; no one is out to get you, I have never even met you or anyone on this forum, but from the posts the topic seems sketchy. We are doing a dis-service to the hobby when we progress with miss informed knowledge.



ameekplec. said:


> It's one thing for one person to voice a difference of opinion and have an informative discourse on the topic of "purity" of genetic strains. It's another for a group of people to go on a witch hunt, deserved or otherwise. It's not about mediocrity - it's about beating a dead horse.
> 
> I'm all for the discussion of source stocks and lineage - it's a contentious topic everywhere: cichlids, apistos, corals, etc. I myself get swept up in it when it comes to named/lineaged SPS corals - but what makes for a good thread/discussion is the definition of these stocks with clear identifiers and lively debate about what delineates particular strains from one and another. We're seeing a bit of that here in this thread which is great for the knowledge and education of shrimpheads here and everywhere. However, haranguing time and time again for someone to give up their source's name adds nothing to the topic. The OP doesn't want to give it, so move on. No means no


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## Chris S

We understand your arguments, which is why we have left the topic open. If she doesn't want to combat any of your arguments, that is her perogative and all we ask is that we don't push that aspect any further in hopes to keep this thread civil.


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## ameekplec.

Genetic lineage and breeder source are two different things. If the OP could come up with a lineage name, then that's great for the discussion.

****, your posts on the subject are great, don't get me wrong. But it gets tiring when you're all asking for the same thing that may or may not add to the debate - in fact, the OP could say it's from Mr. X and unfortunately, it's only as believable as their original assertion that they're whatever shrimp lineage.


What are all the known JPRL lines? Are there particular hallmarks for different strains?


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## Zebrapl3co

There is no point in arguing about JPRL if you can't even ID it propertly. It's pointless to chase after this.

Cracking on the white simply means it's a lower grade CRS. It could possibly also mean that some one cross a high grade JPRL with a lower grade JPRL.

Cracking on the red colour on the side of the head, on the other hand, is clearly a trait of a golden cross.

Edit: You just proved our point. Even you cannot ID propertly.

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## CrystalMethShrimp

ameekplec. said:


> Genetic lineage and breeder source are two different things. If the OP could come up with a lineage name, then that's great for the discussion.
> 
> ****, your posts on the subject are great, don't get me wrong. But it gets tiring when you're all asking for the same thing that may or may not add to the debate - in fact, the OP could say it's from Mr. X and unfortunately, it's only as believable as their original assertion that they're whatever shrimp lineage.
> 
> What are all the known JPRL lines? Are there particular hallmarks for different strains?


This thread was more interesting and educational when the focus was on what differentiated jrpl from mixed. I learned quite a bit as I'm sure most of you did apart from the experts. I'm certain Anna's mistake was unintentional but due to misinformation. Hoobiests at that level usually have a passion for what they do and they put alot of pride and care into this. We should encourage our local breeders rather then bash them whenever they make a mistake. If you recall she charged non-jprl prices for her crs. I think if she was out to scam people the prices would of been much higher.


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## msnikkistar

Zebrapl3co said:


> There is no point in arguing about JPRL if you can't even ID it propertly. It's pointless to chase after this.
> 
> Cracking on the white simply means it's a lower grade CRS. It could possibly also mean that some one cross a high grade JPRL with a lower grade JPRL.
> 
> Cracking on the red colour on the side of the head, on the other hand, is clearly a trait of a golden cross.
> 
> Edit: You just proved our point. Even you cannot ID propertly.


Actually, I made this determination from what Frank has taught me in speaking with him, since we are very good friends, and from researching.

Although you are right about the red, I am not sure you are right about the white. Even if one would Cross say an S grade JPRL with an SS+ Grade JPRL, it does not ensure that you would get SS+ grade JPRL as the result of that. Also, from my understanding from what Frank has told me in many conversations and what I have learned in a wide arrange of sites, the white and red should almost always be solid even in the lower grades. Cracking should be VERY VERY small. The only determining factor for the grades, are the markings of the shrimp, and how much white vs red is present in them.

And as his post below stated, cracking is only VERY apparent when a breeder has used a short cut method to obtain the higher grades. Also a picture of his S grade PRL from a FS ad here on GTA, that obviously has no cracking and is a lower grade. So I am pretty sure, at least I, can identify properly as Frank taught me what to look for himself.












Jiang604 said:


> Also cracking, since it is an SS grades would not be this evident due to line breeding. If you just cross S grades which are pure. You cannot get the next grade. You need to select more white to get to the next grade for higher gene expression of white which is why it wouldn't crack or minimal cracks in SS grade. The only reason why alot of people who sell SS have cracks is because they did it the short cut way of crossing snow white which shows none to minimal evidence of yellowing but cracks because the gene expression of white in the first few generatons is weak. and with golden bee genes it is self explanatory.


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## Zebrapl3co

Also, notice the shrimp to the right with the pink head.
http://www.shrimpnow.com/mygallery/files/2/sss2_702609.jpg
This thing about JPRL can go on with no end.

From my personal experience:
I got 10 from a friend who brought them in directly from Japan. He says his Japanese friend pick them up from a very reputable Japanese store. They look damn good for a Grade A JPRL and honestly they are the best looking CRS I've ever seen. I am pretty sure they are JPRL as they match very closely to those pictures on the Japanese websit. But as you can see, even I can't say they really are JPRL because it went through 2 sources. In fact, even if I was in Japan myself and bought them, I still can't gaurentee that because I don't read Japanese. And I only have the store owner's hand language and his reputation to go on.

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## CrystalMethShrimp

From what JPRL have black eyes, thick white shell with minimal crack and deep intensity red body with no flower or crown head patterns. They also have some red on their legs and can recite every pokemon to come out of japan in the last 15 years. 

From my search online on various sites it seems that even with all these characteristics met there is no gaurentee your getting a pure line. If anything, breeders tend to keep the best for themselves so they would sell the worst of their crops. I suggest leaving those pricey purchases to the experts who have a much better cahnce of selecting the right ones.


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## Zebrapl3co

msnikkistar said:


> ...Although you are right about the red, I am not sure you are right about the white. Even if one would Cross say an S grade JPRL with an SS+ Grade JPRL, it does not ensure that you would get SS+ grade JPRL as the result of that. Also, from my understanding from what Frank has told me in many conversations and what I have learned in a wide arrange of sites, the white and red should almost always be solid even in the lower grades. Cracking should be VERY VERY small. The only determining factor for the grades, are the markings of the shrimp, and how much white vs red is present in them.
> And as his post below stated, cracking is only VERY apparent when a breeder has used a short cut method to obtain the higher grades. Also a picture of his S grade PRL from a FS ad here on GTA, that obviously has no cracking and is a lower grade. So I am pretty sure, at least I, can identify properly as Frank taught me what to look for himself.


In answer to your 1st statement. I used to own Grade A and Grade B JPRL. If they are solid white, they won't be Grade A and B now would they? They'll be S quality. Your statement indirectly answers itself.

Were it that easy to retain SS or upgrade it. Everyone would be breeding SS JPRL. Only a small percentage of the ofspring will be SS if they are real JPRL. It's from these small percentage that you need to separate to just continue breeding just to keep them the same grade. You'll need a combination of luck + skill + numbers to raise your grade. If you let them breed as they wish, you will slowly see your grade drop. This means you will need several tanks, like 3 - 5 shrimp tanks to play around with.

Here is another walk on history. See http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/1377-Ask-CRS-expert-ASSA?highlight=assa
Look at those two shrimps, especially the one from ASSA. Surprise? yeah, that's a golden cross alright. And at the time, ASSA was the top 3 Japenese breeder. They still are one of the top breeders in Japan today.
(Oh, BTW, that's me posting as Zebrapl3co there. I was pissed off because ASSA gave Silane something and he kept it to himself.)

On page 4, read about "ASSA bloodline", does that sound familiar? Even though under a different name, it was a contention back in 2008.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I don't dispute Fank's observation. He's working with the higher grade while I "was" working with the lower grade ones. So I have a different observation point. Making observation is about all we can do. Like CrystalMeth said, all the top breeders keep their secrets. The rest of us can only make guess and depending on the grade of your shrimp you are working with. There will be different observation angle.

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## Beijing08

ameekplec. said:


> What are all the known JPRL lines? Are there particular hallmarks for different strains?


*MFF (Munechika Fish Farm) line*

SSS Male - red AND white legs is the epitome of leg coloration









*Ebi-ten line*










*Crimson line*

(speaks for itself...sold for $251,000 JPY = $2500 USD)











Zebrapl3co said:


> It could possibly also mean that some one cross a high grade JPRL with a lower grade JPRL.
> .


you might wanna check on that Zebraplec 
Here's a CULL OUT low grade MFF


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## Zebrapl3co

Beijing08 said:


> ...you might wanna check on that Zebraplec
> Here's a CULL OUT low grade MFF


Cull out S grade, look lower:
http://mff.jp/grade/index.html

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## Zebrapl3co

But, damn those shrimp you post are pretty though.
Remember those shrimp you got for me? I cross them with my JPRL before I found out that they where golden cross. I've never had golden cross when I own my JPRL. So I don't know how to spot them. And when I found out, it was too late. 
Took me a while to get over that, but I am cool now.

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## Beijing08

Zebrapl3co said:


> But, damn those shrimp you post are pretty though.
> R


lol yeah very pretty, i'm drooling all the time checking them out. But not realistic for us haha.

Also didn't know there are C grade JPRL's...those are hard to come by...but they still exhibit better colouration than the normal A grades, not to mention the red LEGS 

----------------------------------------------------

If you're referring to me, I never got shrimp for anyone on GTAA.


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## Zebrapl3co

Beijing08 said:


> lol yeah very pretty, i'm drooling all the time checking them out. But not realistic for us haha.
> 
> Also didn't know there are C grade JPRL's...those are hard to come by...but they still exhibit better colouration than the normal A grades, not to mention the red LEGS
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> If you're referring to me, I never got shrimp for anyone on GTAA.


Well, that's the thing. After my cross. I have some shrimp with red legs. So I am 100% sure that you can get red legs with a golden cross. That's why I am saying it's not a tell tail sign.

Sorry about the mistaken identity there. You did not get me the golden cross, it was some one else.

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## jimmyjam

I def have CRs that have red legs that are not jprl. I guess some crs can exhibit red legs, but most higher grade jprl have red legs. I like where this discussion is going. Good pics/links.


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## AquaNekoMobile

$2500 USD for a shrimp? O_____o;;;; That is just nutty IMHO. Pretty yes but daaaaaammmn. I guess if that's your thing then rock on.


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## novice

any one selling the Redleg JPRL in toronto ? or when is frank having another group buy ?


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## Zebrapl3co

Anyway, just to back up what I said because some of you are thinking that "this guy is full of @#$%". Here are some of my crosses. To be honest, I don't really want to show my tank as I do like to keep some secrets to myself. But anyway ... Oh, please don't use my photo for your sales ad. Click on the picture for a larger version.







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## jimmyjam

zerbra.. thats some nice shrimp man. Let me know when you wanna get rid of some ss/sss


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## Zebrapl3co

jimmyjam said:


> zerbra.. thats some nice shrimp man. Let me know when you wanna get rid of some ss/sss


Thanks, but the truth is, the ones in the picture looks much better than what they really look like to the naked eye. I think it's because it's slightly out of focus so all the little imperfection didn't showed up. These guys still needs lots of work.

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## pat3612

Zebrapl3co said:


> Anyway, just to back up what I said because some of you are thinking that "this guy is full of @#$%". Here are some of my crosses. To be honest, I don't really want to show my tank as I do like to keep some secrets to myself. But anyway ... Oh, please don't use my photo for your sales ad. Click on the picture for a larger version.


We would never think that of you never never never


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## CrystalMethShrimp

You can tell a jprl by it's thick white shell. Usually S/S+ grade is good to keep as they breed slower then mixed crs and can sometimes produce SS/SS+ off springs. The only way to tell if it's jrpl is by breeding it selectively with other jprl and see the results in the F3-F5 generation. The best way imo is to buy direct from a reputable breeder whose an expert in their field and has bought theirs directly from a professional japanese ebi breeder.


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