# Pleco died need help.



## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Ok, here is the situation.
It has been a day since my girlfriend left the country. She told me to look out for her aquarium and already fish is dead. 

Please help me what the hell happened and why pleco died otherwise she will kill me after she comes back.
I am thinking of buying another Pleco secretly but I don't want it to die as well.

I believe it was some kind of common pleco purchased in Big Als. He was fine on Sat, I changed water and fed all the fish. On Sun morning I saw that his was glued to a glass. Sun evening I return from work and can't seem to find him. After looking thoroughly I find pleco lying on his back somewhere behind the decoration.

I was so upset for this little guy. Also I am scared for my life she will blame me for everything 

Some info:

36G Fresh water Aquarium.
AC 70 filter.
All other fish is fine including albino cory catfish.

Thanks.


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## michaelhoffman (Apr 24, 2010)

Plecs need lots of green stuff to eat. Algae, veggie rounds and fresh veggies. Many times plecs and algae eaters die because they have not been handled right at the store. If you are getting an another, make sure his tummy is nice and filled out, no sunken bellys.

Your tank may be over stocked with many fish and plecs are huge waste producers . Need to change about 255 each week and Vacuum the gravel.


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## trailblazer295 (Mar 7, 2010)

A common pleco will quickly out grow a tank that size, could have been waste production or not enough food.


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

we would need a lot more information. 

test the water for ammonium, nitrite and nitrate.

feeding regime, what did you feed.

what els is in that tank

temp of water, pH

how much water did you change the last time

appearance of the dead fish (bloated stomach, colouring of the area around the gills, fin etc)

The info you gave so far isnt enough to make a judgement on the cause of death. 

Judging from the fact that you found it on it back, and assuming no fish moved it to its back postmortem. My guess would be lack of oxygen/ammonia and nitrite poisoning.


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## GuppiesAndBetta (Jul 27, 2009)

When you changed the water, did you add water conditioner?


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Get water test dip-strips to read 6 parameters on water quality, and a liquid ammonia test kit. (The dip strips for ammonia are crap). Test your water,
and no matter what the readings say, do a 50% water change tonight, and another 50% tomorrow. Whatever killed one fish in there, will kill the rest if it isn't diluted. 

Try to match the water temperature when you change, and be sure to use dechlorinator (Seachem Prime or equivalent) when adding tap water.

If there's ammonia, or nitrite, you need a new biofilter infusion immediately. let us know about that. Maybe someone on here can help you with that. But for now, the solution for pollution is dilution.

W


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Ok I will try to answer all your questions:



> A common pleco will quickly out grow a tank that size, could have been waste production or not enough food.


Not the case, pleco was only two or three weeks old.



> we would need a lot more information.
> 
> test the water for ammonium, nitrite and nitrate.
> 
> ...


Did tests right away.
Amonia - 0 -0.25
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate - 10 - 15
Temp - 78
PH - ??

Feeding. Fed pleco with zucchini, hikairi sinking wafers and he also had some bamboo to munch on.

Always do 20 to 25 % water changes weekly.

Like I said I found him on his back, I was too upset to look in great detail.
From what i noticed, pleco's stomach did not look bloated. No white stuff either.

All other fish is doing fine no signs of ammonia toxicity whatsoever.

Ammonia has always been somewhere between 0 to 0.25 (i am using API master test kit). Today I bought seachem ammonia test which one puts inside the aquarium.

Every time I do 25 % water changes I add a bit of seachem water conditioner. I also add salt to the aquarium but a bit just as a remedy.

My strongest believe is that salt killed my pleco. Other wish is doing fine.
I have some fish that requires salt like guppies and platies.
Could that be the case?


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## Hitch (Apr 26, 2009)

I doubt it is salt, common is actually pretty tolerant of salt. And Plecos are not as salt sensitive as everyone says. How much salt did you put into that tank.

What colour was the area around the gills (around the mouth from the bottom).


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

I wouldn't bother with the salt, if you want my opinion


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

If you were doing your water changes,and the pleco was only recently purchased, I think you experienced a "mini cycle" because adding the pleco to the tank (several weeks ago?) caused a mini-cycle which caused everybody including the pleco to experience ammonia levels greater than 0.1 ppm. These levels do not kill instantly, but do stress out the fish. It is also possible that you just had some bad luck, and this poor fellow arrived with a problem (such as parasites) but you would hopefully have seen white poo or something like that to give away the condition. Plecos are normally healthy-as-a-horse, and so I'm at a loss really.

Your little fishy might have already been a bit stressed from his journey from his place of origin to fish store, to you, if he was only a few weeks old, in terms of time since you bought him.

I think that you might want to feed very sparingly (everybody) after adding a very large fish to your tank like that, test the water daily and do a 10% daily water change after adding a fishy like that.

If you want a common pleco to replace him, nobody has claimed the one I'm giving away. I saw one (reverse gibbiceps) in Big Als yesterday for $34.99. So he must be expensive. I mostly want to give him to someone who will take good care of him. Anybody who gives zucchini to their pleco gets a "happy pleco" gold star from me. 

Sorry for your loss!

W


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree, from the description you've been giving. Looks like the pleco is going to be well care for.
I don't think the salt is an issue either. Unless you are putting way more salt than you though. It's more of a disconfort than a killing agent.
From the sounds of it, it might be an air issue or ammonia poisoning as suspected by the others. Why, it's because it was sucking on the glass the previous day. Plecos have a funny way of letting you know that something was wrong in the tank. That is something it would do when there is something wrong with the tank. Mines does it all the time.
Also, I am not sure how much you've been feeding, but make sure you pick up any uneatten food.
When you do your water change, try not to aim it at the filter input.

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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Guys, thank you so much for your responses.
I really appreciate all your help. 



> I doubt it is salt, common is actually pretty tolerant of salt. And Plecos are not as salt sensitive as everyone says. How much salt did you put into that tank.
> 
> What colour was the area around the gills (around the mouth from the bottom).


Well, when we first were recommended to put salt in a freshwater aquarium, we followed instructions and put the required amount for our 36G tank.

Each time we do water changes we add a bit of salt to compensate for the salt removed via a water change.
I think the instructions say something like 1tbs for every 5G.

We only had pleco for two or two and a half weeks in aquarium. When I first did water change I added the same amount of salt I add all the time. I started diluting the salt in the bucket with aquarium water because I read somewhere that if one just puts salt in the aquarium right away it can cause injuries to various algae eaters and bottom feeders. So, after I did first water change with pleco in the aquarium, I felt that the salt might have affected him somehow.
He was less mobile, sitting in one spot for almost two days. Then on a third day he was fine again. He was swimming and doing his usual ritual of sucking on the zuchinni and cucambers.

I am sorry, I did not pay attention in great details at his gills. It was painful for me to look at this poor guy. 
It sounds strange but I get attached to these little creatures. they show love in their own little way.



> I wouldn't bother with the salt, if you want my opinion


When pleco is there or just will all fresh water fish ?
What is your rationale?



> If you were doing your water changes,and the pleco was only recently purchased, I think you experienced a "mini cycle" because adding the pleco to the tank (several weeks ago?) caused a mini-cycle which caused everybody including the pleco to experience ammonia levels greater than 0.1 ppm.


God knows , maybe you right. 
I actually saw some white poo just floating freely. I have no idea which fish it came from.

The Big Al's store here at Younge and Steeles is horrible.
Last time I went there with my girlfriend, the guy that was helping us kept removing dead fish from various aquariums. Big turn off. 

About him creating a lot of waste. Not too sure. The guy was very small, maybe the size of the albino corry catfish.
Someone told us that pleco will be a problem for our aquarium size when he really becomes big. At that point we just thought we will give him away since we don;t have a second aquarium.



> If you want a common pleco to replace him, nobody has claimed the one I'm giving away. I saw one (reverse gibbiceps) in Big Als yesterday for $34.99. So he must be expensive. I mostly want to give him to someone who will take good care of him. Anybody who gives zucchini to their pleco gets a "happy pleco" gold star from me.


Thank you but I am afraid to take on a responsibility like that. I can handle my girlfriend's screaming when she finds out, I am not sure I can handle yours .

The pelco that we bought from Big Al's was 4.99 or 3.99 it wasn't very expensive. Maybe they were selling sick plecos. I am not sure how much a common pleco should cost.



> From the sounds of it, it might be an air issue or ammonia poisoning as suspected by the others


The API master test that my girlfriend bought is somewhat fishy. It almost shows the same results all the time whether you add or remove fish or do water changes.

I wanted to buy 
Jungle Ammonia Quick Dip Aquarium Test Strips 
But they were out of stock. I ended up buying Seachem Ammonia Alert Test

Now I am afraid to get another pelco because of how big they become. My tank is only 36G so it will be pretty stressful for everyone there.

Is there any other algae eater that I can purchase that doesn't grow so big?

Thanks for your help guys.


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

There are lots of dwarf species. I like the albino longfin bristlenose pleco. They are a pale orange colour rather than white, but they truly are albinos.

W


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Guys, thank you so much for your responses.
> I really appreciate all your help.
> 
> Well, when we first were recommended to put salt in a freshwater aquarium, we followed instructions and put the required amount for our 36G tank.
> ...


STOP putting salt in your tank. 
Not going to give you a huge explanation look up scaleless fish and salt you're not making it comfortable.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

AquariAM, this issue is open for debate.
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html

I truly believe that a bit of salt in the a freshwater aquarium will benefit the fish. Now on the other hand on http://www.plecofanatics.com/articles/ they say that Pleco cannot tolerate salt at all.

That's why i am leaning towards the idea that salt had to do something with pleco's death.

I have neon tetras and albino corry catfish, they are fine with a bit of salt.

On a side note. Yesterday I installed that Seachem Ammonia Alert Test. The test shows that ammonia is less than 0.02, I believe that the test only measures FREE Ammonia.
The API test shows results close to 0.25 

On Mon I am going to buy those jungle ammonia strips just to be sure.



> I like the albino longfin bristlenose pleco.


How big do these guys get?


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Orochi said:


> AquariAM, this issue is open for debate.
> http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html
> 
> I truly believe that a bit of salt in the a freshwater aquarium will benefit the fish. Now on the other hand on http://www.plecofanatics.com/articles/ they say that Pleco cannot tolerate salt at all.
> ...


Don't buy ammonia strips. Just get yourself a full liquid test kit. API is good and well priced. The Tetra kit is slightly inferior but quite affordable. 
Dry test strips are not accurate.

The issue isn't open for debate. You always take the opinion of the specialist over the generalist. If a general doctor tells you that you don't have an ear infection, but the ear nose and throat specialist says you do, you have an ear infection. If pleco people say don't use salt with plecos, don't use salt.

The amount used is important. If you used, say, a tablespoon per five gallons and maintained that level for any period of time, you're going to have very upset plecos. Something like 1/4 tsp/5 gal probably isn't going to upset them much. Regardless, they don't like it.

When you say how big do these guys get, what are we talking about? The 'common' pleco refers to 3 or so different species. On average if well kept all will hit 12". One will hit nearly two feet if kept in an obscenely large tank.

Bushynose plecos rarely hit five inches. Clown plecos also rarely hit five inches. Both are easy to keep. There are numerous other plecos that stay under seven inches.

If you want something small and brown, bushynose are a good way to go.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Salt, in my opinion, should be used to remedy a problem. For general use, I don't think it is necessary at all. It is a waste of salt, and asking for trouble. Unless you keep brackish fish, all your fish needs to be healthy is good water quality!

I think you will find most of the positives to using salt are in helping to relieve stress from disease, wounds or some parasites. It doesn't work as a preventative measure, at least that I know of.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

First of all thank you for responding.



> Don't buy ammonia strips. Just get yourself a full liquid test kit. API is good and well priced. The Tetra kit is slightly inferior but quite affordable.
> Dry test strips are not accurate.


I have an API master test kit. Here is the link:
http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA...quariumpharmaceuticalsfreshwatermastertestkit

This test since the beginning showed to us that ammonia is around 0.25. I am pretty sure that's what it shows unless both me and my girlfriend are colorblind.
0.25 ammonia is extremely toxic for fish. At this level any fish should exhibit an according to the ammonia levels behavior, such as swimming at the surface, red gills, etc...
None of the fish exhibit these behaviors.

The seachem ammonia alert test (put inside aquariums) that I bought shows that ammonia level is less than 0.02.

Could you explain to me this anomaly ?



> The issue isn't open for debate. You always take the opinion of the specialist over the generalist. If a general doctor tells you that you don't have an ear infection, but the ear nose and throat specialist says you do, you have an ear infection. If pleco people say don't use salt with plecos, don't use salt.


Good Point!



> When you say how big do these guys get, what are we talking about? The 'common' pleco refers to 3 or so different species. On average if well kept all will hit 12". One will hit nearly two feet if kept in an obscenely large tank.


Wow, 12" pleco is too big for my aquarium (36G).
Thanks for suggestions about clown and Bushynose pleco.
I think 6" is as far as I am willing to go.

I will try too see if Big Al sells them. I would appreciate is someone can give me more species of plecos that are no bigger than 6" and that wouldn't be hard to get from chains such as Big Al's. 



> Salt, in my opinion, should be used to remedy a problem. For general use, I don't think it is necessary at all. It is a waste of salt, and asking for trouble. Unless you keep brackish fish, all your fish needs to be healthy is good water quality!


I see. I read somewhere that guppies require a bit of salt, I am not sure how important it is to them.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Orochi said:


> First of all thank you for responding.
> 
> I have an API master test kit. Here is the link:
> http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA...quariumpharmaceuticalsfreshwatermastertestkit
> ...


Guppies don't require a bit of salt. What Chris said applies to 99.999% of true freshwater fish and certainly anything you're dealing with here. 
There are other species of pleco, but if you're possibly killing the easy ones do you really want to risk it with a more fragile species? The common (Gibbiceps/Sailfin) and bushynose and bristlenose are most hardy. Clowns are also very hardy. Past that they are somewhat more sensitive. There are probably 100+ choices but they require more specialized care. Most aquarium stores have bushynose or clown plecos in stock these days. Menagerie almost always has them. Last time I tried to get bushynose they only had very young ones maybe an inch or two at the most. They probably have bigger ones by now. If you have a 36G you definitely don't want anything bigger than five inches or so as you said so I'd try to get the bushynose. You can have more than one. If you get a pair they may spawn which is entertaining. The male has 'bristles' on the front edge of it's face and the female doesn't. You can't tell them apart if they are very young though.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

Lots of people who keep WC Trophs and Petros proactively use epsom salts to help prevent bloating in their fish. Not all salts are bad. I've dosed salt in my FW tanks previously and I didn't really notice any difference in their size colour and behaviour. While its not harmful its probably not really worthwhile either.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Darkside said:


> Lots of people who keep WC Trophs and Petros proactively use epsom salts to help prevent bloating in their fish.


Lake Tanganyika has a LOT of magnesium ions so adding epsom salts to a tang tank makes sense. Adding sodium to a tank with plecos when they come from rivers with almost no sodium does not.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

> Most aquarium stores have bushynose or clown plecos in stock these days. Menagerie almost always has them. Last time I tried to get bushynose they only had very young ones maybe an inch or two at the most. They probably have bigger ones by now. If you have a 36G you definitely don't want anything bigger than five inches or so as you said so I'd try to get the bushynose. You can have more than one. If you get a pair they may spawn which is entertaining. The male has 'bristles' on the front edge of it's face and the female doesn't. You can't tell them apart if they are very young though.


Thank you for the explanation.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

AquariAM said:


> Lake Tanganyika has a LOT of magnesium ions so adding epsom salts to a tang tank makes sense. Adding sodium to a tank with plecos when they come from rivers with almost no sodium does not.


A little bit of salt will aid all fish in their osmoregulation. A little bit of salt really should not harm the fish over an extended period of time.
No one really adds the Epsom salts to their Tang setups to mimic the natural environment in the lake, rather they are used as a prophylactic laxative treatment. This is usually only reserved for fish that are prone to bloating. Tanganyika has a lot of other dissolved solutes beyond Mg that we don't need add to maintain the health of fish from the lake.
At any rate I doubt that the addition of salt is what caused the death of this pleco. NaCl isn't a necessary addition to a FW aquarium, if anything saving your money is probably a more potent reason to stop adding the salt rather than the health concerns for the fish. The plants will appreciate the removal of the salt far more than the fish will.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Darkside,

I don't have any plants, only plastic ones. I also read about osmoregulation and the healing of wounds at a faster rate due to osmoregulation. That's why I started putting salt in my aquarium in the first place. I come from a science background that's why this stuff makes sense to me. I am still thinking, however, that salt might have killed my pleco. The other fish seems to tolerate the recommended amount, whereas pleco could not.

BTW I use API salt. I bought it when I was treating ich.

Could bamboo skewers that I used as a driftwood have killed my pleco?

Quatingf myself here:


> On a side note. Yesterday I installed that Seachem Ammonia Alert Test. The test shows that ammonia is less than 0.02, I believe that the test only measures FREE Ammonia.
> The API test shows results close to 0.25


Can anyone explain the why the results differ?
The only thing I can think of, is that API measures total ammonia (free ammonia which harmful and ammonia ion which is not). Therefore it always shows that there is ammonia in the fish tank. But what good of a test is it?


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## KhuliLoachFan (Mar 8, 2008)

Ten out of ten of the leading fish-magazine editors would put it this way:

1. adding salt to a fish tank with a sick fish is perhaps better than not treating the sick fish at all.

2. treating that sick fish in a salt bath but not exposing an entire tank to salt is even better.

3. Unless you keep a species-specific fish tank that requires salt, the best theraupeutic dose of salt is zero.

There may be controversy out there, but all the specialists out there that I have read in the last few years say:

A. keep your water pure and change water often.
B. don't add salt, or anything else, like "StabilEEZ-3000" for prophylactic or therapeutic purposes. 

Salt has lots of benefits. Species tolerance of salinity, and changes in salinity varies. Exposing all your fish to salt, especially in a community tank, is not win-win. In almost all non-euryhaline species, adding the salt has a double-whammy effect. They tolerate the addition of salt, and the next time you change the water, the change in salinity causes stress. The cleaner you keep the water, the less the water chemistry Yo-Yo swings up and down, the longer your fish live.


W


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

Thank you KhuliLoachFan,

It was very informative.


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Have you decided what sort of replacement pleco you're getting?


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> Have you decided what sort of replacement pleco you're getting?


Well I am guessing one of the ones you mentioned earlier.
I guess either clown, bushynose or bristlenose pleco. It mostly depends whether Big Al's will have these species.
I don't have a car so for me I can only go to Big Al here at Younge and Steels. I don't to risk going further as I am afraid that this may have a negative impact on the fish 

Plus I will have to wait a bit till I get another pleco. I want to do several water changes maybe two or more in total in order to dilute the salt concentration in the aquarium. This way I can rule out salt from the equation next time something happens.

Why are you asking? You have one for sale


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## AquariAM (Jan 28, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Well I am guessing one of the ones you mentioned earlier.
> I guess either clown, bushynose or bristlenose pleco. It mostly depends whether Big Al's will have these species.
> I don't have a car so for me I can only go to Big Al here at Younge and Steels. I don't to risk going further as I am afraid that this may have a negative impact on the fish
> 
> ...


No I just don't want your girlfriend to kill you when she gets back like you said.


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## Orochi (May 9, 2010)

AquariAM said:


> No I just don't want your girlfriend to kill you when she gets back like you said.


LOL  thanks, you are so caring 

She is gone for two months. I think i have enough time to come up with something.
Worse comes to worse I will get a plastic pleco. I don't think she will be able to tell the difference


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