# Co2 disaster - lost all fish in tank - help



## Scotmando

*CO2 DISASTER - LOST ALL FISH IN TANK - HELP*

I'm a newbie to Co2!

I have a fully planted tank with 3 small discus, 15 neons, 8 guppies, 3 oto cats, shrimp and some small koi and smoky angels(I got @ London auction).

_Yesterday I came home from work to find all my fish & shrimp dead and the diffuser in my tank running full tilt with LARGE bubbles._ Shocked the heck outta me!

I did a 50% water change, pulled out the dead and put in an aerator.

What to do?  My drop checker is yellow, probably 6.0 - 6.2.


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## Scotmando

*When can I put in new fish?*


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## Rmwbrown

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but you should probably focus on figuring out your Co2 system - running it for a a few weeks until you can get it stabilized - before you even begin to contemplate adding fish. 

What kind of regulator and needle valve are you using? Is the needle valve faulty? Was this an end of tank dump? All good questions that should come first!


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## Scotmando

Rmwbrown said:


> Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but you should probably focus on figuring out your Co2 system - running it for a a few weeks until you can get it stabilized - before you even begin to contemplate adding fish.
> 
> What kind of regulator and needle valve are you using? Is the needle valve faulty? Was this an end of tank dump? All good questions that should come first!


No Worries! I'm the embarrassed one  

Good advice.

I'm running a DC AQUA Co2 solenoid regulator i bought @ Aqua Inspiration. 
I think it may have been a user error caused by myself! I turn the tank off at night and back on in the morning cause I don't have it on a timer yet. I'll fix it today and get the timer on & leave it to do what it's supposed to do.

I just checked the ph is 7.2

Thank you


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## destructo

ya best to get a timer and a solenoid so it can turn off at night.


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## Fergus

No advice, just sorry that happened to you. I know whenever anything living in one of my tanks dies, i feel REALLY bad about it.


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## Rmwbrown

In all honesty, I do not not see why plugging/unplugging should make any difference. You achieve virtually the same end. If doing this, I.E. turning the soliniode on and off is messing with the flow off the needle valve, then you will see the same problem when its on a timer. That said, I have only been running pressurized Co2 for a year and have only used two regulators - a Milwaukee and more recently, the Green Leaf Primo. Given I have not seen many posts in the last few weeks from the more experienced users, it may be best to post this problem on Planted Tank and see what they come up with. 

Do also keep in mind there is lag time involved, which seems to increase with cheaper units. Did you recently increase the bpm and then walk away? I can take minutes for the bpm to stabalize.

I love Aqua Inspirations and, have bought several tanks and lights there and been very happy with them. However there is some stuff they are selling that is not worth your time or money. In my experience, the NAG equipment is useless for anything over 10 gallons. I have not used their regulators, but given the price point, I'm skeptical. The only reason I have the Milwaukee is because it is backed by a major brand, and this is the absolute cheapest regulator i was comfortable using given other user reports. A reliable solenoid and needle valve are essential, and i fear these are two things lacking in the AI regs. 

You might also want to look deeper into Discus/planted tanks/ and pressurized Co2 - it is my understanding that this is a difficult task, not suited for beginners.


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## 03pilot

Very sorry to hear your horrible experience!! I am no expert in co2 system but I second on what Robert has said. The system should be working consistently with or without solenoid/timer.

When I first started co2 injection, I spent a lot of time on adjusting the needle valve needlessly. I was expecting the co2 bubbles to come as soon as I turn it on. When I don't see bubble, I'll start adjusting the valve and made things worst. I have done this quite a few times. Of course, now I learn to be more patience and leave it alone once its set up properly. It has been working flawlessly for a year.


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## Will

Sorry to hear that Scotmando.

Is this one reason why people are using the Milwalkee PH Controllers? To disable a haywire system before the PH shocks your fish?
Seems like they make pressurised CO2 safest for the fish by keeping a constant PH, but not as stable for the plant's Co2 availablity.

Been looking at some Pressurised CO2 options latey, and have wondered this. Figured this might be the right time to ask.


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## Rmwbrown

Will Hayward said:


> Sorry to hear that Scotmando.
> 
> Is this one reason why people are using the Milwalkee PH Controllers? To disable a haywire system before the PH shocks your fish?
> Seems like they make pressurised CO2 safest for the fish by keeping a constant PH, but not as stable for the plant's Co2 availablity.
> 
> Been looking at some Pressurised CO2 options latey, and have wondered this. Figured this might be the right time to ask.


Pretty much. That and if you want to leave it on 24/7 to avoid any PH spikes for sensitive fish.


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## pat3612

So Sorry I feel for you just remember we are all human we all make mistakes if we did not we would not learn much . I am sure there are many people here who have made mistakes too.


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## Will

Rmwbrown said:


> Pretty much. That and if you want to leave it on 24/7 to avoid any PH spikes for sensitive fish.


So why isn't the PH Controling method the norm? are the drawbacks of not keeping the co2 input constant that damaging to the process? Seems like people are tinkering with and adjusting their systems anyways.

Or is it that by PH control tanks don't reach the super high PPM of CO2 that some of the highlight high tech tanks require?


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## 03pilot

Will Hayward said:


> So why isn't the PH Controling method the norm? are the drawbacks of not keeping the co2 input constant that damaging to the process? Seems like people are tinkering with and adjusting their systems anyways.
> 
> Or is it that by PH control tanks don't reach the super high PPM of CO2 that some of the highlight high tech tanks require?


To me...I didn't want to spend the extra money for a pH controller. Plus I find having a solenoid is good enough. Plants don't use co2 during light off period so shutting down co2 injection at night can save co2 and not worrying about too much co2 being dissolved in the water. We should be fine as long as we keep monitoring the bubble counter and co2 drop checker. Most fish and shrimps can tolerate a mild pH swing. But like Robert said, pH controller is valuable for keeping sensitive livestock that require constant pH 7/24.


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## Rmwbrown

Even with a high tech system is is very rare that you are going beyond 30ppm of Co2. 20-30 is the norm. After that it's toxic and i'm not sure that plant growth increases in any significant way (could be wrong, but i have yet to see anything on a high Co2 start up). That said, you could certainly set your controller for a lower PH and thus higher ppm if you wanted - like anything else, you program it and it will blast Co2 until it hits the target range. The pros, as i see it, are on larger tanks you can save Co2 by using the controller/solenoid/timer to shut it on over night and during the day once it hits its target, or you can let it run to eliminate any peaks.

Why don't more people use them? They are expensive ($150). The probe is rather large an unsightly. Most fish do not show any signs of stress with the fluctuation of PH. By and large, you can get a pretty good handle on your Co2 with the timer and a decent needle valve. With a good regulator, end of tanks dumps are not a concern. On a smaller tank, Co2 usage is already nominal, and your probably getting a 10 lb tank to last a year on 25 gallons.



Will said:


> So why isn't the PH Controling method the norm? are the drawbacks of not keeping the co2 input constant that damaging to the process? Seems like people are tinkering with and adjusting their systems anyways.
> 
> Or is it that by PH control tanks don't reach the super high PPM of CO2 that some of the highlight high tech tanks require?


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## Will

Rmwbrown said:


> Even with a high tech system is is very rare that you are going beyond 30ppm of Co2. 20-30 is the norm. After that it's toxic and i'm not sure that plant growth increases in any significant way (could be wrong, but i have yet to see anything on a high Co2 start up). That said, you could certainly set your controller for a lower PH and thus higher ppm if you wanted - like anything else, you program it and it will blast Co2 until it hits the target range. The pros, as i see it, are on larger tanks you can save Co2 by using the controller/solenoid/timer to shut it on over night and during the day once it hits its target, or you can let it run to eliminate any peaks.
> 
> Why don't more people use them? They are expensive ($150). The probe is rather large an unsightly. Most fish do not show any signs of stress with the fluctuation of PH. By and large, you can get a pretty good handle on your Co2 with the timer and a decent needle valve. With a good regulator, end of tanks dumps are not a concern. On a smaller tank, Co2 usage is already nominal, and your probably getting a 10 lb tank to last a year on 25 gallons.


Thankyou very much Robert.

Idealy to make the switch from the just "somewhat benificial" Sugar/Yeast Co2 setup on the 75 Gallon tank (meaning to say that it's been more effective on the smaller tanks) we'd want a bulletproof and _automated _system. While the DIY CO2 is the current choice for reason of high cost of the pressurised systems, more than $150 has been spent of fish, (more if one would want to include the plants- Since both can/will be affected by a pressurised c02 system) an extra $150 dollars seems like a good investment to saftey and automate a system.

Also it seems like it's still possible to use both a PH controller and a nighttime shutoff. Even though you'd lack the ph stability overnight (then again just by turning it off you are aiding in preventing the combined plant nightime-co2-production, combining with the presurised c02 source from skyrocketing your co2 levels), and you'd stop waste of co2. Maybe that's redundant.


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## Scotmando

Rmwbrown said:


> In all honesty, I do not not see why plugging/unplugging should make any difference. You achieve virtually the same end. If doing this, I.E. turning the soliniode on and off is messing with the flow off the needle valve, then you will see the same problem when its on a timer. That said, I have only been running pressurized Co2 for a year and have only used two regulators - a Milwaukee and more recently, the Green Leaf Primo. Given I have not seen many posts in the last few weeks from the more experienced users, it may be best to post this problem on Planted Tank and see what they come up with.
> 
> Do also keep in mind there is lag time involved, which seems to increase with cheaper units. Did you recently increase the bpm and then walk away? I can take minutes for the bpm to stabalize.
> 
> I love Aqua Inspirations and, have bought several tanks and lights there and been very happy with them. However there is some stuff they are selling that is not worth your time or money. In my experience, the NAG equipment is useless for anything over 10 gallons. I have not used their regulators, but given the price point, I'm skeptical. The only reason I have the Milwaukee is because it is backed by a major brand, and this is the absolute cheapest regulator i was comfortable using given other user reports. A reliable solenoid and needle valve are essential, and i fear these are two things lacking in the AI regs.
> 
> You might also want to look deeper into Discus/planted tanks/ and pressurized Co2 - it is my understanding that this is a difficult task, not suited for beginners.


Re: End Tank dump. Never heard of this. Interesting!
I did notice that the Co2 tank is close to empty.

I just installed a timer and i'm going to keep a close eye on this Co2 system, tank & aquarium. I want to know if its something mechanical or if its something I did. I was really tired the night before & I had to get up at 5:30am the morning of the disaster, so I want to rule out human error.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 _GTAAquaria forum is cool_


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## Rmwbrown

Will,

Yeah, once your getting into 75+ gallons i would be doing the same. I would also think about an automated doser. The one draw back is you may find you use more co2 trying to bring the Co2 back up after the overnight gas off then you would actually use just keeping it going. Either way, however, you need the controller.

If your buying new i would look at this... http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/co2-systems.html.

I just bought the primo off another member and so far I am very impressed with the unit. Very good needle valve with a very fine adjustment. Makes life easy and takes away a lot of the ambiguity.



Will said:


> Thankyou very much Robert.
> 
> Idealy to make the switch from the just "somewhat benificial" Sugar/Yeast Co2 setup on the 75 Gallon tank (meaning to say that it's been more effective on the smaller tanks) we'd want a bulletproof and _automated _system. While the DIY CO2 is the current choice for reason of high cost of the pressurised systems, more than $150 has been spent of fish, (more if one would want to include the plants- Since both can/will be affected by a pressurised c02 system) an extra $150 dollars seems like a good investment to saftey and automate a system.
> 
> Also it seems like it's still possible to use both a PH controller and a nighttime shutoff. Even though you'd lack the ph stability overnight (then again just by turning it off you are aiding in preventing the combined plant nightime-co2-production, combining with the presurised c02 source from skyrocketing your co2 levels), and you'd stop waste of co2. Maybe that's redundant.


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## Will

Rmwbrown said:


> Will,
> 
> Yeah, once your getting into 75+ gallons i would be doing the same. I would also think about an automated doser. The one draw back is you may find you use more co2 trying to bring the Co2 back up after the overnight gas off then you would actually use just keeping it going. Either way, however, you need the controller.
> 
> If your buying new i would look at this... http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/co2-systems.html.
> 
> I just bought the primo off another member and so far I am very impressed with the unit. Very good needle valve with a very fine adjustment. Makes life easy and takes away a lot of the ambiguity.


Seems like $60 extra for a Milwaukee PH Controller is a good deal though...? (Choice system instead) Looks like the needle valve is not the same as the Primo system though. Do you know why that site lists a price range for each product?


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## Rmwbrown

Will said:


> Seems like $60 extra for a Milwaukee PH Controller is a good deal though...? (Choice system instead) Looks like the needle valve is not the same as the Primo system though. Do you know why that site lists a price range for each product?


Same needle valve, industrial regulator body. I think the price difference is based on a 5lb or 10lb tank. I would see about getting the package minus the tank if it helps with the shipping cost at all.


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## Will

Rmwbrown said:


> Same needle valve, industrial regulator body. I think the price difference is based on a 5lb or 10lb tank.


Right! Duh. Should have figured that one out.

The photo shows a different valve no? And the description doesn't list it the same as the primo.


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