# Looks Like Im Going Reef!



## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

will get pics uploaded but for now ill tell you the details.

got myself a 46 gallon bow front tank.
going to run:
-sumpless
-protein skimmer undecided atm
-seachem reef salt (really good reviews going to try it )
-t5ho 4 bulb 36" system. 2 actinic, 2-12000k bulbs, and 3 moonlight led's attached to system
-2 X aquaclear 50 powerhead 250 gph (prob only run one) and got another power head on order and its 800 gph. so going to setup on either side. if needed more flow ill add the extra 250gph 
-no lids and lights will be on stands on either side
-ro/di water filter on order waiting on that
- i dont know how many lb but i got carib sea sand... its half or abit more than half of a 5 gallon bucket full. hopefully its enough for my reef. i want atleast 3" thick or 4"
-live rock will be prob 50 lb. i want more because its the heart of the system. thats where im needing to find a good deal 


hopefully you took the time to read that. other small things on order like digital thermometer etc.

let me know if i got all the things needed i need you experts to help a friend out!
thanks.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

I stopped reading when I seen "-sumpless" 

Assuming you will enjoy SW tank and will decide to continue, in a few months you will replace your setup with the sump. Why to waste money now on the stuff which you will sell later for nothing Drill the tank and make a sump

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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

There are many sumpless tanks out there running 3+ years. You don't have to have a sump. You just need to known what your doing. I that's when research kicks in. Thanks....

QUOTE=sig;274777]I stopped reading when I seen "-sumpless" 

Assuming you will enjoy SW tank and will decide to continue in a few months you will replace your setup with the sump. Why to waste money now on the stuff which you will sell for nothing later[/QUOTE]


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

you are right, there are many. I am talking about esthetic point of view by having all stuff hanging on the back wall in the tank and much higher risk for the floors when your skimmer start overflowing

Do not forget to get device to measure salinity level



peacocks said:


> There are many sumpless tanks out there running 3+ years. You don't have to have a sump. You just need to known what your doing. I that's when research kicks in. Thanks....
> 
> QUOTE=sig;274777]I stopped reading when I seen "-sumpless"
> 
> Assuming you will enjoy SW tank and will decide to continue in a few months you will replace your setup with the sump. Why to waste money now on the stuff which you will sell for nothing later


[/QUOTE]

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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

i thought its adjustable on flow. when im out ill set it low and when home max that puppy. im always home so it shouldnt be a prob. i believe some also have a overflow tube so it dripps out of tube instead of all over the floor.

i bought a refractometer off ebay. waiting on it, hydrometer i heard isnt to accurate though is still better than nothing.



sig said:


> you are right, there are many. I am talking about esthetic point of view by having all stuff hanging on the back wall in the tank and much higher risk for the floors when your skimmer start overflowing
> 
> Do not forget to get device to measure salinity level


[/QUOTE]


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

All kidding aside, though I do agree with sig, it can be done nicely without a sump, though your long-term maintenance issues will be more costly and time-consuming IMHO. Read up and research lots, and good luck with the tank!

Welcome to the dark side....


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## CrankbaitJon (Mar 26, 2012)

I have a 90 without a sump and a 75 with a sump. Both are fine but without a sump is a bit more trouble especially if you got sensitive corals and the HOB skimmer keeps putting out micro bubbles. I ran the 90 without a sump as I got a box turtle on the bottom tier and I have a 125 upgrade ready to go in a few months


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## CrankbaitJon (Mar 26, 2012)

sig said:


> you are right, there are many. I am talking about esthetic point of view by having all stuff hanging on the back wall in the tank and much higher risk for the floors when your skimmer start overflowing
> 
> Do not forget to get device to measure salinity level


[/QUOTE]

That is so true! I can't even use coral putty in my 90 because it can cause excess bubbling and that can cause problem with my HOB skimmer. Can't wait to move the stuff into the new tank.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

CrankbaitJon said:


> I have a 90 without a sump and a 75 with a sump. Both are fine but without a sump is a bit more trouble especially if you got sensitive corals and the HOB skimmer keeps putting out micro bubbles. I ran the 90 without a sump as I got a box turtle on the bottom tier and I have a 125 upgrade ready to go in a few months


what do you have running as far as filteration on ur sumpless tank. and why do you hate your hob skimmer. because of the microbubbles only? u can fix these small things. all hobs have diy fixes that take few mins.

thanks.


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## CrankbaitJon (Mar 26, 2012)

I got 100lb live rock, a hob refugium that is a modded AC110. I use the BH2000 skimmer. It skims well but the micro bubbles it outputs is just annoying and the bubble trap sponge they give you is flat out ugly. I also have a phosban reactor sharing a pump with a UV sterilizer. I had a canister filter to hold carbon before but it was just a nitrate/phosphate factory so I put carbon in the refugium now. ATO's output is into the tank where as my other system everything is going into the sump. I manual dose my systems. For the 75 I just dump the additive into the sump but the 90 I have to stand there and dose slowly into the skimmer output part of the skimmer to not shock the corals.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

CrankbaitJon said:


> I got 100lb live rock, a hob refugium that is a modded AC110. I use the BH2000 skimmer. It skims well but the micro bubbles it outputs is just annoying and the bubble trap sponge they give you is flat out ugly. I also have a phosban reactor sharing a pump with a UV sterilizer. I had a canister filter to hold carbon before but it was just a nitrate/phosphate factory so I put carbon in the refugium now. ATO's output is into the tank where as my other system everything is going into the sump. I manual dose my systems. For the 75 I just dump the additive into the sump but the 90 I have to stand there and dose slowly into the skimmer output part of the skimmer to not shock the corals.


u know anywhere i can buy cheap live rock? im looking to get 50 lb of live rock possible is that ok for my reef tank? so you pretty much say forget the skimmer but what ill by my filter? should i grab a hob filter


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## CrankbaitJon (Mar 26, 2012)

No I don't mean that. I think you will need a skimmer. I personally won't run any saltwater system without a skimmer. People sell live rock on the forum for cheap. I got most of my live rock from Ken @ Reefquarium. I don't really buy live rock from hobbyists anymore. Most of the time something bad happened to someone's tank and he/she tore it down and sell the rocks. I don't want that something to happen to my tank, just my $0.02.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

i hear ya. thats y im not considering members as i do respect them, anything can still happen. anyone can be lieing and mess you up in the future.

i was asking more the direction of the pet store live rock. wondering if u know retailers that sell it cheap. everyone i know locally is 6 dollrs a lb.



CrankbaitJon said:


> No I don't mean that. I think you will need a skimmer. I personally won't run any saltwater system without a skimmer. People sell live rock on the forum for cheap. I got most of my live rock from Ken @ Reefquarium. I don't really buy live rock from hobbyists anymore. Most of the time something bad happened to someone's tank and he/she tore it down and sell the rocks. I don't want that something to happen to my tank, just my $0.02.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Buy marco rock. It is available from SUM. It isn't live rock but you don't have to cook it. 3.69/lb.

The buy a small amount of live rock to seed your tank, and if you can bum a cup of live sand from someone. More than 1 someone is better because then you get stuff from 2 systems. When buying that small amount of live rock, buy some rubble (it is usually cheaper!) and make sure that it has some corraline on it and it has been submerged. Iw as at Big Als (north York) today and they had a bucket of rubble cheap but a small amount of it was above the waterline.

Also keep an eye on the forums here. A little while ago someone was selling rock from their system for $1.00 lb.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

Tim said:


> Buy marco rock. It is available from SUM. It isn't live rock but you don't have to cook it. 3.69/lb.
> 
> The buy a small amount of live rock to seed your tank, and if you can bum a cup of live sand from someone. More than 1 someone is better because then you get stuff from 2 systems. When buying that small amount of live rock, buy some rubble (it is usually cheaper!) and make sure that it has some corraline on it and it has been submerged. Iw as at Big Als (north York) today and they had a bucket of rubble cheap but a small amount of it was above the waterline.
> 
> Also keep an eye on the forums here. A little while ago someone was selling rock from their system for $1.00 lb.


i think ill stick to live rock. one guy told me you cant cheap out in the hobby. itll backstab you later. most of the time lol. and i will never buy used live rock from someone unless i know they took care of there tank.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

peacocks said:


> i think ill stick to live rock. one guy told me you cant cheap out in the hobby. itll backstab you later. most of the time lol. and i will never buy used live rock from someone unless i know they took care of there tank.


Do you know what marco rock is? This has nothing to do with cheapening out in the hobby. Go look in the marine photography section, many people use it.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

Tim said:


> Do you know what marco rock is? This has nothing to do with cheapening out in the hobby. Go look in the marine photography section, many people use it.


i couldnt seem to find info on marco rock. sorry im still fresh into this salt hobby. would you like to give me some info of it. is it just regular rock thats light or what?


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

It is manmade rock out of the US (according to ken @ SUM). Sea U marine (in Markham) brings it up here. It is GREAT rock, light for it's size, lots of holes for bacteria. I found you don't need a lb per gallon because the rock is so pourous. Put in 50 lbs in a 50 gal tank and there isn't a lot of room for anything else lol.

see some pics of it here:
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35358&page=3

and here:
http://www.marcorocks.com/150poundskeylargorockfreeshippinginthecontientialus.aspx

I will never pay for a tank full of live rock LOL. It would be insanely expensive, and you can get lots of nasties just like from some reefer's tank.

And yes going cheap can be more expensive in the long run and sometimes it isn't  You can get great deal on here (and at stores) if you can be patient.

Some of us even make our own rock (15-ish cents a pound) so we can spend our cash on other fun things


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I don't have a sump and have no issues but if possible this is the better route. My stand is not build for a sump, what is your reason?

Deltec MCE600 is a great HOB skimmer but BH2000 seems to be best bang for your buck

Look for someone trying to get rid of a complete system to get your live rock. Should be easy to spot if there is a problem because a healthy tank is surprisingly easy to distinguish. ~$3/lb seems to be the going rate for used. Marco rock to fill in any voids is a good option.

So far it looks like you've done your homework. You will always find advice on both sides of the fence. The only way to learn is to do it and most of the time your gut will be right. Trying to cheap out usually costs you more but knowing when to spend the money only comes with experience.

Good luck.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm with Greg, I stopped reading at "sumpless"

Good luck! 

Gimme a shout when you get a sump


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

altcharacter said:


> I'm with Greg, I stopped reading at "sumpless"
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Gimme a shout when you get a sump


no sump here bud. and no sump mainly because my stand doesnt support one. im getting the remora pro series skimmer. rated for 125g. that should help greatly. with good water changes


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

Sand bed wise, don't go more than 2" and vacuum a portion regularly. Alternatively, go the deep sand bed route(~5") and don't touch it. Anything in between is a not a good idea.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

No sump = lots of stuff hanging off the back of the tank giving the glass extra stress and making lots of unwated noise in my opinion.

I'm not saying that it hasn't been done before but if you had the chance to drive a nice silent mercedes benz or a 76 ford pinto i'm pretty sure you'd pick the nice quiet benz.

By taking the route of saying "my stand doesn't fit a sump" you're limiting yourself to what you can do with your tank. Every person I've met in this hobby has eventually upgraded and the first thing they do is get a sump.

Things you can put in a sump:
Auto Top Off
Heater
Filter sock
GFO
Carbon
Cheato
lights for macro
pod shelters/farms
skimmer

To me it just makes sense to build a new stand to put a sump so the tank looks cleaner.

Either way, I lied!!! I'm sub'd to your thread now


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

Dax said:


> Sand bed wise, don't go more than 2" and vacuum a portion regularly. Alternatively, go the deep sand bed route(~5") and don't touch it. Anything in between is a not a good idea.


so 1-2 inch with general sifting to clean unwanted stuff? or i go 5 " thick and leave it the way it is (never touch it)

is that what you meant?


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

atm what i think im going to do is do this 46 gallon have fun with it and learn. then when im ready move my reef to my 125 gallon tank. then have all the bad boys installed. im on a very tight budget. plus i got 15 tanks running at my house. my dad wont want the sump and the electricity bill will be more because i need a pump to drive the water up and with sump ill prob end up getting all the gadgets which adds to the electricity. i think ill be ok with what im going for. just keeping up with my water changes i guess .



altcharacter said:


> No sump = lots of stuff hanging off the back of the tank giving the glass extra stress and making lots of unwated noise in my opinion.
> 
> I'm not saying that it hasn't been done before but if you had the chance to drive a nice silent mercedes benz or a 76 ford pinto i'm pretty sure you'd pick the nice quiet benz.
> 
> ...


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

If I wasn't so tired, I would type out more...

Marco rock is dead reef rock. Not man made. Yes, you can use it. Yes people are using it. Hell I used it. But not in the ratio's people are. Live rock still beats the hell out of dry rock for stability.

Sump... Not needed, neither is a skimmer, or half the other stuff we all have.

Basic husbandry will maintain a tank of this size. The tank will need regular water changes. And it will look great, and will succeed.

My first tank was sumpless, skimmerless, carbonless, gfoless. Lit with a pair of t12 bulbs. Filled with tap water. No dechlorinator..... Later, if I remember, I will find pictures of the tank.

So, rather than continuing to say get a sump, lets help the first timer. Hell, we have all been around long enough to know that in a year or less, it will be upgraded anyway!!!

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

thanks j_t. appreciate the comment. i came here looking for some great support. so far so good. i understand sumps are more stable. heck i did so much research in 2 days. but theres always new things popping up that i never heard of. and some r great ideas like the marco rock. i might grab some to save. prob half live and half marco hows that sound? so 25lb each



J_T said:


> If I wasn't so tired, I would type out more...
> 
> Marco rock is dead reef rock. Not man made. Yes, you can use it. Yes people are using it. Hell I used it. But not in the ratio's people are. Live rock still beats the hell out of dry rock for stability.
> 
> ...


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## carmenh (Dec 20, 2009)

+1
I agree that a sump is nice to have, and I'm enjoying it on a couple of my newer tanks, but my original sumpless reef is also still going great and looking awesome! (As much as Greg nags me to upgrade!) 
I have friends with sumps that have more issues than I've ever had, it's all about attention to detail, observation, maintenance, and a bit of luck, but either way can work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

well said carmen. it all comes down to pref and what you can do at the moment and worry about the future when you need to.

is marco rocks free shipping to canada or no? i figured they might charge freight for the heavy rocks? correct me if im wrong. if its free i would buy directly unless someone has reasons not to. such as live rock being bad condition or sometihng.



carmenh said:


> +1
> I agree that a sump is nice to have, and I'm enjoying it on a couple of my newer tanks, but my original sumpless reef is also still going great and looking awesome! (As much as Greg nags me to upgrade!)
> I have friends with sumps that have more issues than I've ever had, it's all about attention to detail, observation, maintenance, and a bit of luck, but either way can work!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

SUM has tons of marco rock at a good price usually. Just go in with a wad of cash and that usually works.

I love how marco rock looks in a tank, gives alot of little areas for the creatures to hide and whatnot. And as JT said, it's not man made. It's a natural rock that's dry and dead from a landlocked area in florida. Although it use to be reef rock at one time...a loooong time ago.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

J_T said:


> If I wasn't so tired, I would type out more...
> 
> Marco rock is dead reef rock. Not man made.


That is what I thought too. I spoke to Ken at SUM yesterday and he told me it was man made. He told me they make it with Aargonite and some type of bonding agent. Either way it is good stuff and a great way to save cash on your tank.


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

Tim said:


> That is what I thought too. I spoke to Ken at SUM yesterday and he told me it was man made. He told me they make it with Aargonite and some type of bonding agent. Either way it is good stuff and a great way to save cash on your tank.


I too heard that, but, was informed otherwise on AP.

This hobby can be cheap, or expensive. Thing is, cheaper you get, the more time, and attention the tank requires.

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

ill go check it out. i c that it has more of a whitch yellowish looks to it. does the colour start to look like live rock - brown etc down the road because the 2 diff coloured rocks wont look to great. thanks. i



altcharacter said:


> SUM has tons of marco rock at a good price usually. Just go in with a wad of cash and that usually works.
> 
> I love how marco rock looks in a tank, gives alot of little areas for the creatures to hide and whatnot. And as JT said, it's not man made. It's a natural rock that's dry and dead from a landlocked area in florida. Although it use to be reef rock at one time...a loooong time ago.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

It is more white than anything else. 

Don't worry about how the rock compares this early. Can't tell the difference between my marco rack and the pieces of live rock I have in my tank now.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

sounds good.

heres a thought. if i buy the macro rock can someone put it in there set up temp or in there sump to seed it untill i get my tank set up? just a thought. i can buy it and deliver it. hopefully someone in markham or scarborough...

also i found this live rock for sale from this system that was 150 gallons. its been running for 10 years she said and theres corals growing on it. you think its save to buy? its 2.50 a lb she said. i can prob get some for cheaper but is that safe or no?

just i find spending 6 dollars a lb/. is a pain in the ass


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

I totally agree with you on the price of LR. It's been insane with the prices of LR in LFS and it's not even really LR anymore since most of the stores bring it in half dead and just seed it in their tanks. Really what you're paying for is someone else to seed rock for you.

If you need a spot to seed your marco rock I have some space in my sump you could use. I also have a few smaller pieces of LR if you wanted them to seed your tank with.

The problem with getting LR from an established tank is the headache you might possibly get with a unknown tank. I know my tank has no aiptasia but it does have bristle worms and bristle stars. Do you want these in your tank? It's all preference when it comes to critters and the like.

Last thought, I ended up getting some cheap LR from a LFS and almost killed my tank with all the baddies on it. Now any rock that comes into my tank, I just usually dry it out and make sure everything is dead so I don't get anymore headaches.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

If you want to avoid any bad critters for now the only way you can do it is use dry rock like marco rock and cycle your tank using pure ammonia or chucking in a shrimp or something like that.

As soon as you add your first coral all bets are off for the baddies


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

To give you a morale boost, I'll describe my sumpless 125g setup to show you how a fully functioning system can be simple and inexpensive. 

-CF light, 2-65W 10000k and 2 65-W actinic
-1-300w heater (normally I have 2 in case one fails)
-1-MCE600 Deltec skimmer
-2 powerheads (I think ~1200gph each)
THAT'S IT!!! And the only thing hanging is the skimmer.

In the tank I have:
5 inch fine aragonite on LH side (DSB)
2 inch coarse Florida crushed coral on RH side
Approx 150 Lbs live rock

This all supports the following:
Bubble tip anemone over 18" wide
Hammer coral
Bubble coral
Purple Montipora
Purple mushroom
Kenya tree
a few different zoa/palys
1 Foxface rabbitfish 5"
2 Clarkii clowns that breed regularly
1 Sixline wrasse
1 Dispar Anthia
8 Mollies I converted to SW

My skimmer has a compartment to run carbon and Purigen. I do about a 5% water change every week, which is not enough but seems to be ok for now. I am aware that this is not enough to support difficult corals(SPS), but I think the LPS and softies are a good start.

Remember the most important part of keeping a reef is to maintain water quality and provide adequate light. The rest will take care of itself. Maybe someone can start a thread about "lessons learned when starting a reef" but here are some of mine:

- A sump is not necessary but will make life a lot easier. I put this first on the list because all reefers find it hard not to comment on this subject.
- decide on a sand bed scheme because it will be near impossible to change once you start. DSB vs shallow (<2"). Lot of conflicting advice on which is better so I did both to see for myself. So far no complaints on either side.
- Get all the live rock in and stabilize the system before adding livestock. Adding live rock in stages will create all sorts of mini cycles which will cause you lots of stress because you won't know what the heck is going on.
- If you are buying "used" live rock check all the water parameters of the tank that it came from. Poorly maintained tanks cause the LR to saturate with phosphates which will release into your system.
-Quarantining new additions will go a long way to reduce the chance of introducing pests or disease. PITA but it is difficult lesson to learn.

I am now tired. Hopefully this helps and someone can keep adding to the list.


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## J_T (Mar 25, 2011)

Dax said:


> To give you a morale boost, I'll describe my sumpless 125g setup to show you how a fully functioning system can be simple and inexpensive.
> 
> -CF light, 2-65W 10000k and 2 65-W actinic
> -1-300w heater (normally I have 2 in case one fails)
> ...


This ^

Pretty much what I have said. It can be done, but you need to know what is possible, and what isn't. As mentioned, SPS are going to be a huge battle with this system. The LPS, and softies will do just fine.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Dax said:


> To give you a morale boost, I'll describe my sumpless 125g setup to show you how a fully functioning system can be simple and inexpensive.
> .


Deltec MCE600 Skimmer - *$511.95 CDN*

you call it unexpencive 

for this price, you can get sump, plumbing and good skimmer. I would also assume, since these skimmers are costly and not many people will run 125G without sump, you will stuck with this one forever or will sell it for nothing if you are lucky.

I tried one time to sell Octopus HOB - it was almost impossible. Do not forget that each situation is different my friend. As I remember you had running tanks and for you to go with sump was meaning to replace everything.
This guy has just empty tank and he can do right things from the beginning.

That is why I say do it right from the beginning without wasting money later.
I was in this story, when my wife was scared from sump and I did not want to hear what people are saying. In the end just wasted around 1000 and went with sump

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## CrankbaitJon (Mar 26, 2012)

I have SPS in my sumpless system. It really is more difficult and so far the SPS in my sumpless are not thriving. I only have 2 fish with one more going in. Clams and softies are fine though.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

I run mine with a DSB refugium, no sump, no skimmer. But I have LOTS of critters to consume left over bits of food. Lots of worms, filter feeders, some wiggly things and pods, and I have varous macroalgaes, 2 types of caulerpa, chaeto and Vanuatu Geldium.

If I didn't have a fuge, I would have a hard time keeping the critters alive as my wrasses keep the population low.

Kenya trees, GSP, Mushrooms, zoas, lord acans, sympodium, hammers are all thriving.


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

Tim said:


> Kenya trees, GSP, Mushrooms, zoas, lord acans, sympodium, hammers are all thriving.


That is because SPS like "0" nitrates. Unfortunately, in my Tank zoas and LPS are not doing fine, but SPS are thriving.

Looks like it is not easy task to have all types of corals in the one tank

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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

I wouldn't even try to have SPS in my tank.


Well I might one day lol. When I get a sump. Or feel adventurous.


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

So from this we learnt that there is more than one way to run a reef and yes I will be provocative and say they can all work  As with most things in life people will have their opinion. 

Please just understand that as people progress 'most' (I use the term loosely) will go with a sump setup. If you decide to do this in the future it means some of the equipment you run now may become redundant thus the extra expense and PITA later 

If nothing else I would say a sump is a great thing for the extra water volume and thus stability it contributes to a system. Thats my 2cents as a total novice to SW. Please dont take my words as gospel there are far more experienced members who have provided their input I am just sharing experiences.

However you proceed good luck and WELCOME to SW, there is no going back once you jump in!!!!!!

It is the most frustrating and rewarding hobby rolled into one.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

As you've probably noticed, alot of people have said that a sumpless system will work. However all of these people have a sump or have said "I would love one"

I wanna see more pics!!


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## kamal (Apr 21, 2009)

altcharacter said:


> As you've probably noticed, alot of people have said that a sumpless system will work. However all of these people have a sump or have said "I would love one"
> 
> I wanna see more pics!!


Totally 

I knew I wanted a sump hence I waited and waited for the perfect setup for me then jumped in. The threats of 'you will upgrade eventually' was ringing in my ears


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Funny because my nitrates have always hovered around 20 ppm so I wanted a sump for the skimmer to get that down to 0.

Just tested my water and my nitrates are now @ 0

I have heard that it just happens when the DSB decides to kick in, one day it drops. I havent tested for nitrates for a few months now, so it has happened within that timeframe .

Even though I have gone to an RO (no DI) unit in the past week, I can't attribute the drop in nitrates to the change in water because my conditioned tap water had 0 nitrates in it, 0 nitrites and 0 ammonia.

Either way, yay!


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes Tim, but the water change does help since it's not the nitrates that you are seeing in the water but the TDS that will turn into Nitrates. All unfiltered water will have some type of TDS in it and will produce Nitrates over time.

One reason we use RO/DI water


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh im sure there has been some affect, but can't be much. I haven't changed out enough water yet.

I have only done 2 water changes of 3 -4 gallons each so 6 - 8 gallons of water + another 3 gals in top ups out of probably 70 total (accounting for rock and dsb in fuge).

That small decrease in overall TDS may have allowed the DSB to catch up or something to do with not using water conditioner anymore? 

either way I am not complaining


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## sig (Dec 13, 2010)

In my opinion every time we to test something, we should have a new test kit just opened 

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## Tim (Dec 11, 2011)

I may just get a new test kit as the one I have is almost done. 

Even though it is still it's best before date, it is always in the back of my mind that the kit is too old.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

J_T said:


> This ^
> Pretty much what I have said. It can be done, but you need to know what is possible, and what isn't. As mentioned, SPS are going to be a huge battle with this system. The LPS, and softies will do just fine.


There we have it. A couple of us are on the same page. Not a setup for the advanced reef but a good beginning.



sig said:


> Deltec MCE600 Skimmer - *$511.95 CDN*
> 
> you call it unexpencive
> I tried one time to sell Octopus HOB - it was almost impossible.This guy has just empty tank and he can do right things from the beginning.


and here we go ... the sump comments. Notice my first piece of advice was to get a sump and I still agree with it but ....
-Guys like you are perfect for getting equipment cheap. Mine was $200 and I saw the same one a couple of weeks later for $100. Not that bad.
-The other thing this person mentioned was that this was a "starter" tank and would eventually move to a bigger one. Great learning experience and a way to figure out how to make your final setup.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

amazing detailed review. i appreciate you taking the time to write such a nice response. this gives me more insight on things to do and not. and hopefully it helps others reviewing this thread. would be great to get more ppl to explain there ups and downs.



Dax said:


> To give you a morale boost, I'll describe my sumpless 125g setup to show you how a fully functioning system can be simple and inexpensive.
> 
> -CF light, 2-65W 10000k and 2 65-W actinic
> -1-300w heater (normally I have 2 in case one fails)
> ...


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

*added pics!*

heres some pics of what is happening. got my lights in.

2 actinic
2 12000k
3 lunar led.

and remora skimmer pro. rated 125 gallon with surface skimmer.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

what bulbs are you using? I found with that combination of lights I didn't get that good of growth from corals


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

altcharacter said:


> what bulbs are you using? I found with that combination of lights I didn't get that good of growth from corals


T5 ho bulbs


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

peacocks said:


> T5 ho bulbs


I don't know how to respond to this one....
I'll let someone else respond to it


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## Ctp416 (Nov 23, 2011)

altcharacter said:


> what bulbs are you using? I found with that combination of lights I didn't get that good of growth from corals


What combination worked for you?


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm using 
KZ New Gen (14k)
Geissman Actinic + (22k)
4 Cree XP-G Cool White LED's
4 Cree XT-E Royal Blue LED's

I find tht the whites help out alot with the growth now and the corals are getting color again. I don't know if it was under powered but I assume it was for a 20g. I had 4 T5HO's on the 20g but I couldn't handle the heat.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

altcharacter said:


> I'm using
> KZ New Gen (14k)
> Geissman Actinic + (22k)
> 4 Cree XP-G Cool White LED's
> ...


yea the fixture does pump out heat. thats for sure.


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## peacocks (Aug 7, 2011)

*pictures...*

tell me what you guys think. the right side i have yet to add 3 big peices of live rock but for now this is what im thinking will work. let me know i need suggestions. i was aiming for caves and what not for good air flow and hiding spots.


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## Dax (Sep 29, 2010)

I like the rock pieces. You might want to try a cascade style where the bottom is wider than the top. Makes for more places to put corals so they have access to light. Going straight up limits your placement for sessile creatures.


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