# Re-Doing my Filtration *Need help!*



## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

So after realizing I do not have enough Biological filtration on my 2213. I am sick of floating between 20-40ppm of Nitrate in my CRS tank. Ive decided to order the following:

-250ml Seachem Purigen
-1L Seachem Matrix
-1L Seachem De*nitrate

Now my setup includes a simple sponge cover protecting the inlet that goes to my 2213. My 2213 has mechanical and some biomedia. What comes standard when I purchased out of box. (Removed carbon and replaced with more bio)

My question now is how should I add my new Seachem products.......

*Idea #1:* Order this "Pre-Filter" Box (from AI) and use it as a "POST-FILTER" filled with 100% biomedia (purigen, de*nitrate, matrix) Acting as a "POST-FILTER" should still have a slow enough flow to allow biological to work properly.

http://aquainspiration.com/nproductdetail.asp?PIN=FS&PNAME=apa&PSIZE=pf128&PTYPE=External Filters

INTAKE (with sponge to stop shrimplets from getting sucked in > EHEIM 2213 with mechanical and bio (AS-IS) > add the "PRE-FILTER" after the canister acting as a "POST-FILTER" filled with bio

SPONGE > 2213 > POST FILTER

Worry: Kill flow rate, wont work, too fast for biological to grow, ineffective

*Idea #2*. Empy out my 2213 add back my existing established bio-media, add purigen, add matrix, add de-nitrate so my 2213 so it is 100% biomedia. Add the new "pre-filter" with floss, sponge, and other mechanical media and use as a true "pre-filter"

Worry: kill my established bacteria colony and thus kill all my shrimp? Do not want to disrupt my existing colony and cause cloudy water. I think this method has the most risk............

P.S Will it help to sprinkle Mosura BT-9 and Mosura Old Sea Mud over the new biological media to kick start it? Will this give it a nice kick start?

P.S.S I have frogbit and a ton of plants. Still cant get it to < 20.


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

The denitrate only works for nitrates in a very slow flow, too fast and it still gets oxygen rich water and won't eat nitrates. Really any bio-material will work for this purpose if the flow is slow enough and the O2 depleted. This is why you see 2-4 canister filters chained together in some of the Asian breeder setups. The water should be depleted of O2 by the end of the chain and eat some nitrates.

The best way to get rid of your nitrates is figure out the source of it. Clean your filter media good, clean out your canister from some mulm, add some frogbit and duckweed floaters to eat the nitrates. 

Any patchwork to eat the nitrates isn't going help if there is continuous source of them in the tank.


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## acropora1981 (Aug 21, 2010)

If you have nitrate issues, do larger more frequen water changes. It's cheap and very simple...


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

acropora1981 said:


> If you have nitrate issues, do larger more frequen water changes. It's cheap and very simple...


Large frequent water changes aren't good for inverts.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

I do water changes weekly and clean my filter monthly... Now any suggestions :s adding more biomedia never hurt any1


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

It's very difficult to get rid of nitrate with filtration, unless you daisy-chain a few canisters together. A 2213 with a prefilter may work if you get enough biomedia loaded with AOB to use up the oxygen before water hits the deNitrate (placed in the last compartment in the chain). NOB only use nitrate in anaerobic environment and it's hard to achieve that in a relatively small water body like our tanks. There are commercially made nitrate filters but all of them are quite expensive, and some requires frequently feeding the bacteria.

In summer time, we often try to compensate the warmer water temperature by adding more aeration (air stone, surface movement, ... etc), this can also break the balance of the tank and gives you a nitrate spike. 

I had a nitrate spike about 2 months ago, the reading was like 80ppm. I did 20% WC daily for three days and all shrimps were okay and slowly became more active again. But I wouldn't do that unless your nitrate is really high, frequent WCs may mess up their molting.

If your shrimps are still active and nothing bad is going on, keep up weekly 10 to 20% WC to bring down nitrate slowly. Adding floaters doesn't work by itself, you'll need higher light or longer photo-period. Floaters only suck more nitrate when they grow crazy.

Prefilter is okay, at least it won't hurt. I would fill first half with filter floss, second half with some of biomedia, use deNitrate in the last compartment, fill the rest of the room with matrix. But that's just me. And people say if you daisy-chain multiple canisters, you should only use the power in the last one in chain to get more suction power and better water flow, but I have never experimented with this so it's only something people say.

Good luck, and feed less if you can control yourself ;-)


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## getochkn (Jul 10, 2011)

Could also try the benibachi nitrate removed, it's a liquid at AI. It's $35 for a bottle but I've read a few reviews that say it worked really well.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

I will try adding my passive canister AFTER my active 2213. 

I know this is opposite to what you said randy but I am going to try it 

Im sure the flow will be slow enough as it already is slow as it is 



Ill keep you all posted with daily incremental tests when everything comes in next week. According to my reviews this is going to work -_- I hope


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## acropora1981 (Aug 21, 2010)

matti2uude said:


> Large frequent water changes aren't good for inverts.


Neither are nitrates.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

I know this doesn't answer your question, but have you made any progress in figuring out the source of nitrates? I mean, even when I leave food in the tank over a couple days, nitrate never really goes above 5 ppm... typically it stays below any detection of the test kit.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

splur said:


> I know this doesn't answer your question, but have you made any progress in figuring out the source of nitrates? I mean, even when I leave food in the tank over a couple days, nitrate never really goes above 5 ppm... typically it stays below any detection of the test kit.


Most likely caused by dying plant debris. Lots of my stems loose all their foliage consistently as I stopped dosing ferts.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

My Biomedia arrived today. My plan has changed.


I will dump my existing filter media into the new "PRE-FILTER" with some added filter floss/mechanical media. Then use my 2213 with 100% biomedia 


Any advise in transfering the biomedia? do I just pour it in? Will this cause a bacteria outbreak?


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

Ok guys took the prefilter approach.

Added new sponge, mech rings, and some existing biomedia into my prefilter.

In my cannister I added 1l matrix, 500ml denitrate, and 1 bag 250ml of purigen!

Let's see the readings after 24hrs. Shrimp seem happy and water is already getting pretty clear!










Will retest nitrates in 48hrs and report back!

Flow is not affected at all! Should I partially close the outflow valve to reduce flow for my denitrate?


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

That deNitrate won't work right away, I believe it takes at least a few days as described on the product description. Ideally you should reduce the flow a bit to get it to work but I have no personal experience to make a suggestion. What I did in one of my canister is to add some media that allows better flow at the same level of deNitrate, so less flow will pass deNitrate. Not sure about Eheim though but should be the same idea.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

Great news! My Nitrates are down to 5 - 10 ppm 
Cant wait for the existing biomedia to leech onto the new media.

Im sure the affects will be amazing. It already is dropping well!


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

I did setup my prefilter wrong though! I did 

BIO > MECH > SPONGE 

After a month or two until new biomedia is established I will fix my prefilter to be sponge then rings.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

You should have it mech - sponge - bio like how the eheims are set up.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Congratulations on a problem fixed. 

The reason for placing media in certain order is to stop the larger particles in the first/second stage, I'm sure you have some form of sponge on the intake so it shouldn't matter too much in your case. Most of my shimp tank filters (canisters or HOB) have matrix only and it's working just fine and no need to clean them too often because either the sponge covered intake or UGF.


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

The mech is supposed to create turbulence in the water so the bio can work better.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

I find that the best way to get 0 nitrates is duckweed and a decent light. It takes a bit of patience but it's very simple to do.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

solarz said:


> I find that the best way to get 0 nitrates is duckweed and a decent light. It takes a bit of patience but it's very simple to do.


Totally agree. But my shrimps prefer living with 10 to 15 ppm to having a green roof ;-)


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

Since my last post 3 weeks ago I can officially for the record state I have 0 nitrates and a proud member of the 0/0/0 group  

I guess the trick is having plenty of biomedia and lots of plants. Heavily planted prior kept between 10-20ppm. The extra 2.5l of biomedia seems to be working well for me


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Great to hear you got it fixed... mind sharing a pic of the tank itself?


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

What kind of biomedia did you add? Because biomedia really only converts ammonia to nitrate to nitrates. So it doesn't really get rid of nitrates, unless you added some chemically active media such as purigen or nitrate removing media. If you did, those are temporary and need to be recharged/changed often, especially if you were make 10-20 ppm of nitrate prior consistently.


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## CrystalMethShrimp (Apr 27, 2010)

splur said:


> What kind of biomedia did you add? Because biomedia really only converts ammonia to nitrate to nitrates. So it doesn't really get rid of nitrates, unless you added some chemically active media such as purigen or nitrate removing media. If you did, those are temporary and need to be recharged/changed often, especially if you were make 10-20 ppm of nitrate prior consistently.


if you have no3 all the bio media in the world wont make a difference.
keeping no3 at 0ppm is so easy that i'm perplexed when i see people posting issues about it.

the only natural things you can and should use to maintaining no3 at o ppm are plants and/or barley pellets.

i only use barley pellets when i first cycle my tank and need to remove the initial no3 then i give the sub a good vacuum.

the duckweed is an amazing tool 
to be completely honest my tank surface is only covered 30% at all times but by fluke. I had my lights off for 3 days and half my duck weed died or turned brown. Since then with the lights on 10 hours a day, they've stopped spreading and are all healthy green.


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## splur (May 11, 2011)

CrystalMethShrimp said:


> if you have no3 all the bio media in the world wont make a difference.
> keeping no3 at 0ppm is so easy that i'm perplexed when i see people posting issues about it.
> 
> the only natural things you can and should use to maintaining no3 at o ppm are plants and/or barley pellets.
> ...


Yeah, I've never had problems with NO3, but my tank is moderately planted with plants that don't require ferts. So it's pretty basic, but Simplicity has had troubles in the past with nitrates.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

I added a full litre of Seachem de*nitrate so it must be working :d along with a boat load if matrix and purigen

sorry about the messy pics. the plants are really getting out of control and need a good trim.


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## randy (Jan 29, 2012)

Nice tank, that's a lot of plants. Thanks for sharing.


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Hey Simplicity, i like this prefilter idea you have, how easy is it to clean up weekly? How much was it in total and where did you get it exactly, did you get it online? Did you have to buy extra stuff to connect it to the line? Can you show some more pictures of how it is connected? Very curious about this one.

I have a prefilter sponge (filtermax 3) on all my filters (2 x Aquaclear HOB and 1 x Eheim 2217 Canister), so mechanical media is quiete useless, as larger particles are stuck at the sponge pre-filter anyways. So on my eheim, I have a few sponge, followed by a small layer of fine filter, followed by Biomedia. The sponge contribute somewhat to bio, so its all good. This "real" prefilter looks interesting to me, as in it should help with less frequent cleaning of the actal canister filter. By the way, i have a few rcs that live in the Cannister filter intake, and they seem to be keeping the cannister cleaner. I always put some back when doing a cleaning, but keep like 2 or 3 small ones there. Only babies are small enough to somehow get in there.

Now, enough rambling, i am still perplexed why with the less feeding and alot of plant (specially duckweed and frogbit and a lamp), you were not achieving the 10 - 20 ppm desired Nitrate level for a Planted tank. This normally works, even if you had to prolong the light exposure. Perhaps many of the plants you had werent great nitrate consumers? I know that now that you have solved the problem, it doesnt really mater anymore, but still curious. In any case, as you have a planted tank, i have been told by many members that you want your nitrate levels to be in the 10-20 ppm, otherwise your plants may suffer (i agree that is less important than the shrimps, but something to keep in mind).


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

zfarsh said:


> Hey Simplicity, i like this prefilter idea you have, how easy is it to clean up weekly? How much was it in total and where did you get it exactly, did you get it online? Did you have to buy extra stuff to connect it to the line? Can you show some more pictures of how it is connected? Very curious about this one.
> 
> I have a prefilter sponge (filtermax 3) on all my filters (2 x Aquaclear HOB and 1 x Eheim 2217 Canister), so mechanical media is quiete useless, as larger particles are stuck at the sponge pre-filter anyways. So on my eheim, I have a few sponge, followed by a small layer of fine filter, followed by Biomedia. The sponge contribute somewhat to bio, so its all good. This "real" prefilter looks interesting to me, as in it should help with less frequent cleaning of the actal canister filter. By the way, i have a few rcs that live in the Cannister filter intake, and they seem to be keeping the cannister cleaner. I always put some back when doing a cleaning, but keep like 2 or 3 small ones there. Only babies are small enough to somehow get in there.
> 
> Now, enough rambling, i am still perplexed why with the less feeding and alot of plant (specially duckweed and frogbit and a lamp), you were not achieving the 10 - 20 ppm desired Nitrate level for a Planted tank. This normally works, even if you had to prolong the light exposure. Perhaps many of the plants you had werent great nitrate consumers? I know that now that you have solved the problem, it doesnt really mater anymore, but still curious. In any case, as you have a planted tank, i have been told by many members that you want your nitrate levels to be in the 10-20 ppm, otherwise your plants may suffer (i agree that is less important than the shrimps, but something to keep in mind).


$40 from aquainspiration. It came with all the shut off the shut off valves. Only issue was with my tubing it doesnt fit quite nice and easily pops off. Not sure why, since it fits my lily pipes and eheim .... the hoses can pop off easily so I need to find a better fitting tubing.

sponge pre-pre filter ( -_- ) covering intake (stop baby shrimp for getting sucked in) > intake > bottom of prefilter > top of prefilter to bottom of eheim > top of eheim to outflow pipe

Excess food easy breaks down and pollutes water causing spikes


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## zfarsh (Apr 7, 2011)

Hey Simplicity, just be sure to check the bottom of your eheim 2213 when doing cleanign, if ever, cause you never know. I have sponge filtermax 3 prefilter, and they somehow still get in, i guess at their smalest stage!!! Thanks for the info.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

zfarsh said:


> Hey Simplicity, just be sure to check the bottom of your eheim 2213 when doing cleanign, if ever, cause you never know. I have sponge filtermax 3 prefilter, and they somehow still get in, i guess at their smalest stage!!! Thanks for the info.


I have yet to cleanout my prefilter its been only 3 weeks. My "pre-pre filter" usually catches the bigger stuff


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

You could put a clamp on the hose to secure it.


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## Symplicity (Oct 14, 2011)

matti2uude said:


> You could put a clamp on the hose to secure it.


That is true I have the small metal rings that tighten as you twist the screw. I was just lazy lol going to have to tighten it up though soon before I do the first cleaning or there will be some major water loss


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## matti2uude (Jan 10, 2009)

I've even used plastic zip ties as clamps before.


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## Fishyfishyfishy (Mar 3, 2008)

solarz said:


> I find that the best way to get 0 nitrates is duckweed and a decent light. It takes a bit of patience but it's very simple to do.


Plants is the way to go. If you hate duckweed, try hygros. Moss is not enough


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