# Crystal White Bee shrimp berried today!!!



## bettaforu

So I am truly excited about this one...these shrimps are sooo rare that to just have a few is great, but a berried one is just too cool 

Sorry about the blurryness, but you can see her eggs. She's the one I showed recently with the saddle...she took her time getting berried. I thought I had lost her because I hadn't seen her come out to eat lately 
but this am when I turned on the lights there she was....very uncooperative as usual, trying to get away asap.

I grabbed this pic as she was scurring for the moss. Hope you can make her out with the eggs.


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## randy

Congratulations, I am watching the three I have daily. Two look like might be female but they grow REALLY slow. I've changed the feeding schedule and that seem to have sped up a bit. Still no saddle though. The baby CRS/CBS in the same tank those were borned a month after I got these CWS are catching up in size.


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## bettaforu

Well maybe the clay will help, it seemed to be after I did the tank that everyone decided to molt and so far that's 3 of the Taiwan Bees berried, one of each kind....just hoping my BBs would get berried too, unfortunately I think they are all males the female was the one that had the babies then died. 

I don't know who the father of these babies is, but hopefully its the other CWB...or maybe the BKK.

I will be back from vacation when she's due so that will be exciting.


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## Dman

That's so funny you say that Anna I put in a tiny bit of that clay on my back filter ontop of my one frogbit














I belive that the oebt is the one big one I got from you a couple weeks ago and sadely the small one died a week after. But hopefully babies to come


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## camboy012406

I don't know who the father of these babies is, but hopefully its the other CWB...or maybe the BKK.

I will be back from vacation when she's due so that will be exciting.[/QUOTE]

if some of the eggs turns black the father is bkk for sure


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## camboy012406

Dman said:


> That's so funny you say that Anna I put in a tiny bit of that clay on my back filter ontop of my one frogbit
> 
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> I belive that the oebt is the one big one I got from you a couple weeks ago and sadely the small one died a week after. But hopefully babies to come


good looking mama oebt you got there. are those bluevelvet, bluepearls or bluejellyshrimps on the right?


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## bettaforu

That's definitely a berried OEBT...congrats.  sorry about the little one.

I also lost my female Tibee on Monday...she just had babies (all black/white Tibees by the way...that's* F3 now * ) unfortunately I put one of the Tibee males I kept back in the tank with her and I think he either harrassed her too much or she was just at the end of her life cycle. She was an adult when I got her, so don't know how old she was...but I do have at least 10+ black/white Tibee babies


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## Dman

Nice, I had my acrylic tank bow a bit to much n the weld broke n started to drop, so I'm shutting down some things a d redoing my basement, it's always getting moved around  but right now I got a 11 g in my kitchen with

5 btoe
4 oebt +babies
3 blue bolts
5 tibee ( blue aura and CBS)
7 tibee (Anna's tibee she was selling)
And a handful of blue rilis) 
3 crystals I got from frank that have weird red colors, almost like a red bolt

So who knows who did


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## J_T

It did break did it. Not trying to be an ass, but would you mind sending me some pictures? I am building my website, and eventually plan to add a section on what happens if the tank isn't thick enough. Or the stand isnt sturdy enough etc.

I dont mind quoting you a new tank either.

Jon

Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


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## Dman

J_T said:


> It did break did it. Not trying to be an ass, but would you mind sending me some pictures? I am building my website, and eventually plan to add a section on what happens if the tank isn't thick enough. Or the stand isnt sturdy enough etc.
> 
> I dont mind quoting you a new tank either.
> 
> Jon
> 
> Posted with my Xperia, using Tapatalk 2


The guy offered to fix it for me for free. It was a incredabally hard tank to measure. As there are 3seperate tanks in one. And I asked for it to be rimless, so it wasn't his fault. And not to be a jerk but Ide get starfire rather then pay for starfire n get acrylic, I bought it off this guy cause it was a good price, your tanks are a bit to much for me.

Anna the 2 bb I got off you I think are females and have been curling so much lately, I also just found one of my crystal with 2 red babies, would you have any idea why that would happen?( she's still not dropping)


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## bettaforu

IF your up for it after I get back we can swap one of the bbs so we each have a male/female...just a thought, not a problem if you don't want to.

If that CRS was in with the WRs, its possible its a WR hybrid baby...other than that I don't know why the eggs would be red, unless they are not viable and will eventually fall off.

Not experienced enough with Taiwans to make a judgement call on this one, maybe Manan P could help.


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## Dman

and no worries was just wondering with you, I think there red because the crystal has a red blotch right on his head, hopefully they will both survive


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## bettaforu

that's not a CRS that's a golden bee....they often have reddish colored eggs, they may change closer to the time of birth...some start off brownish, and get lighter looking in color.


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## Dman

Whoops I call them just crystal white shrimp and call yours hybrid a snow white tibee but ether way I'm excited to see how her 2 eggs come out


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## Symplicity

Dman said:


> Whoops I call them just crystal white shrimp and call yours hybrid a snow white tibee but ether way I'm excited to see how her 2 eggs come out


Gold Bees x CBS/CRS result in a weird mix of all 3


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## bettaforu

Actually Golden Bee x CRS/CBS can result in higher grade shrimps with better headgear. This is how the Mosura headgear shrimps get the fancy markings like Heart, Flower, Lightning, Crown etc. Without the Golden Bee genes these headgear would not have become so popular with breeders.

I myself use my Snow whites to create my crowns/flower mosura's. You can slowly upgrade your CRS by using these Goldens. In PRL these are not used so most PRL only have the Maro headgear (looks like their wearing earmuffs)


I get mostly crowns/flowers/snow whites now in my CRS/CBS tank (have some baby snows right now) because I already have mosura's as breeding stock, but adding the goldens to your breeding programs can help upgrade faster than just using the CRS x CRS


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## randy

Using golden to breed "higher grade" is a controversial topic. As over time the white on the shrimps will degrade. That's one of the reason why PRL are highly praised. 

I didn't want to do that in the past, but got a few golden and no where to house them after their intended use... and they bred with my SSS CBS female and a SS CBS female. I got about 30% of golden from the SSS female, 30% SSS, and rest are SS (near SSS though). From the SS female I got some very bad golden, some okay golden, and some S/SS/SSS. Your result will vary as too many factors in play here.


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## getochkn

randy said:


> Using golden to breed "higher grade" is a controversial topic. As over time the white on the shrimps will degrade. That's one of the reason why PRL are highly praised.
> 
> I didn't want to do that in the past, but got a few golden and no where to house them after their intended use... and they bred with my SSS CBS female and a SS CBS female. I got about 30% of golden from the SSS female, 30% SSS, and rest are SS (near SSS though). From the SS female I got some very bad golden, some okay golden, and some S/SS/SSS. Your result will vary as too many factors in play here.


As with what you said and anna said, there always seems to be different opinions of how they got there/whats right and wrong, etc.

This is my understanding anyways. To get the fancy headgears, you need golden or snows (read an interesting article, I'll find it again, that skeleton snows are a cross of some black tigers and goldens, which throws lots more into the mix but we'll ignore that for now. lol.) If you notice, all the PRL's mostly top out at what we call SS grade. They can't get higher without golden/snow genes. Normal SSS is about the max. Many of the fancy K## number shrimp from the german breeders certainly do seem to have worse whites, etc and certainly have a lot of golden genes, I'm not impressed with many of them. But through some selective breeding, it's possible to introduce a golden/snow into the shrimp to get the crown/mosura headgear patterns, then breed it back out while preserving the headgear and thus getting nice solid white shrimp with crown markings.

As I said, it's hard to get any answers online as there is a million opinions and everyone has a different way and maybe some people did get crowns from only using pure stock but I've yet to see a beni-ebiten, whatever shrimp as a PRL with full crown markings, but using Silane's method to get to a prl stock with crowns could certainly be possible.

Breed some SS/SSS with golden/snow till you get some crown patterns. Separate crowns and let them breed for a while. then 1 by 1, take each crown and breed it with a golden of the opposite sex. If you get any goldens, it's a carrier and into the cull tank it goes. Any that don't have a golden baby, put them aside to breed and by using a m/f pair without golden genes but crown heads, you can start a prl crown line. Of course this needs years and lots of tanks to work on, but it's possible. I can't remember where I read this, but this method was used for some of the really nice solid white crowns out there.

In reality, most of the crs/cbs on the market have some golden in them,as is most of the cbs out there have reccessive red genes in them, but can still have very nice whites. It's the successive crossing of these shrimp together without new genes introduced that can damage the whites but a bit of culling can stop the whites from degrading. I don't believe 1 golden mating is going to destroy a line for 60 generations down the road, genes are more complicated than a simple mendel square even with basic creatures like shrimp.

Some of my nicest solid white females with 90% full legs will throw out a golden now and again.


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## jumpsmasher

randy said:


> Using golden to breed "higher grade" is a controversial topic. As over time the white on the shrimps will degrade. That's one of the reason why PRL are highly praised.
> 
> I didn't want to do that in the past, but got a few golden and no where to house them after their intended use... and they bred with my SSS CBS female and a SS CBS female. I got about 30% of golden from the SSS female, 30% SSS, and rest are SS (near SSS though). From the SS female I got some very bad golden, some okay golden, and some S/SS/SSS. Your result will vary as too many factors in play here.


Yes very, very controversial. I prefer the PRL way of seperating the grading (quality/thickness of color) and the pattern (mosura / hiro/ etc and even then there is a wide variation because a very good hiro/no-entry pattern (perfect circle, full red body & legs, etc and a not so good one - which really depends on what your personal taste is.

Granted, in any given batch of offsprings the mosuras are generally more rare unless you been lien breeding them for a while but I won't consider them higher quality shrimps just b/c they have the mosura pattern. I haven't really seen anyone try to line breed golden bees though... would be interesting how far someone would be able to take them if they tried.


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## jumpsmasher

In the last little while there seems to be some more mosura with head gear emerging out of jprl lines.

Max from Benibachi USA posted this image of a Nishiki Ebi PRL on another forum









Whenever it has golden genes or not he didn't say but Nishiki Ebi is suppose to be one of the oldest JPRL lines


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## getochkn

jumpsmasher said:


> In the last little while there seems to be some more mosura with head gear emerging out of jprl lines.
> 
> Max from Benibachi USA posted this image of a Nishiki Ebi PRL on another forum
> 
> Whenever it has golden genes or not he didn't say but Nishiki Ebi is suppose to be one of the oldest JPRL lines


Nice. Ya, it's hard to say. Many breeders simply don't explain how they got to a certain point, to protect their breeding stock and the work they put in. Sadly, that leaves many people to just speculate on the internet (as with anything in the entire world, the net is full of mostly opinions, lol).

To me, the $20-40 PRL's aren't really that impressive. It's not until you get to the few hundred dollar a piece ones that you can see the really nice whites and solid legs and that's too rich for me. The other problem with PRL's, is they seem to be the craze right now in N.A., but you don't get the investment return on them. You can buy 10 taiwan bee's for $40 a piece and sell the babies for $40 a piece, you'll get your return. PRL's though, you're not allowed to sell the offspring as that name. Even Max, if he has 2 PRL's breed on him in his tanks waiting to be sold and they breed, he can't sell those offspring as Benibachi or whatever, you only get the name brand buying directly from the name brand place.

Just because user XXX on some forums buys 10 PRL's and breeds them, they are not going to get what they paid for each of them. Who want's to pay $40 a piece for a A grade pattern because someone tells you they come from a PRL when you have no idea, I've had nice looking CRS that I paid $3 a piece for that look like most of the lower grade PRL's. It's a name/status thing, especially for the lower grades and I'm not paying $950 for a high grade. lol.


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## jumpsmasher

Yes, depends on your goals and moviation. Someone mentioned that in N.America a lot of hobbyists see shrimps as an investment, with the prospects of selling their offsprings while in Asia it is seen as a status symbol or just as pets.

For me, even with lower grade shrimps I find it rewarding and worthwhile challange to line breed them. If you have a favourite shrimp, the only way they will live on is thru their offspings because of their relatively short life span. It is like how some dog owners clone their dogs after they passed on.

So for me the value of the PRL is not the shrimps themselves but the genes. With the lower garde PRL you are basically buying the culls of the higher grade one but thru time you might get some pretty nice shrimps. I guess for me there is also the collecting aspect of it.. i just want a collection of several different PRL lines... lol

and Anna, congrats on the berried Crystal White


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## getochkn

jumpsmasher said:


> Yes, depends on your goals and moviation. Someone mentioned that in N.America a lot of hobbyists see shrimps as an investment, with the prospects of selling their offsprings while in Asia it is seen as a status symbol or just as pets.
> 
> For me, even with lower grade shrimps I find it rewarding and worthwhile challange to line breed them. If you have a favourite shrimp, the only way they will live on is thru their offspings because of their relatively short life span. It is like how some dog owners clone their dogs after they passed on.
> 
> So for me the value of the PRL is not the shrimps themselves but the genes. With the lower garde PRL you are basically buying the culls of the higher grade one but thru time you might get some pretty nice shrimps. I guess for me there is also the collecting aspect of it.. i just want a collection of several different PRL lines... lol
> 
> and Anna, congrats on the berried Crystal White


Agreed, I like breeding them too and see what comes out. I like to sell extras to help pay a bit back into what I spend on it, but it's certainly not getting me rich. lol.


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## bettaforu

Becaus I LOVE the look of the flower head mosura and snow whites 
I decided last year to just have a tank for those.

I purchased 6 flowers from a well respected breeder in the US and 
started doing this. I have several very nice crowns/flower offspring
growing up in this tank.

I added one male to outcross that I thought would be a good choice.

here is pics of a couple of my breeders, taken the day they arrived, they were still stressed out and were juveniles, they grew more solid white as they matured. I still have a few, but they are not breeding anymore now.

Next is my new line of snows. These are often called Royals because they are soooo white.


























and then the snows I have bred from these mosuras

















and here is the new male...he's a daddy now too.


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## MananaP

If you think about getting your investment back on this hobby while trying to get the best shrimps, all i c an say is good luck with that. It is called a HOBBY because it should be, the one reason i never went into the business aspect of shrimp keeping because i might loose touch of the being a HOBBY part. If you went into shrimp keeping because there is money to be made you are wrong, unless of course you have a system with hundreds of tanks & a lot of time & patient. 

MP


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## getochkn

MananaP said:


> If you think about getting your investment back on this hobby while trying to get the best shrimps, all i c an say is good luck with that. It is called a HOBBY because it should be, the one reason i never went into the business aspect of shrimp keeping because i might loose touch of the being a HOBBY part. If you went into shrimp keeping because there is money to be made you are wrong, unless of course you have a system with hundreds of tanks & a lot of time & patient.
> 
> MP


That's the trend I see is everyone seems to think they are going to setup a few tanks and buy some shrimp and have thousands in 6 months and get rich. lol. I love starring at my tanks and watching the shrimp and if I can sell off some extras when the tank gets too many shrimp, that money usually went back in to more tank stuff anyways.

1 bad day can wipe that out in no time, 1 infection, anything can happen and I see so many new comments everyday, my shrimp are dying, my shrimp have bacteria infections, my shrimp won't breed, I don't have babies that live past a week. There is a lot of time and work into setting up a good tank for them, it's not just put them in some water and get rich.

I agree, if you like the high end shrimp go for it, I just see peoples comments on forums and can tell they are thinking, if I buy 10 PRL's for $150 each, I can make that back in babies and it doesn't work that way.


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## Bigdaddyo

getochkn said:


> That's the trend I see is everyone seems to think they are going to setup a few tanks and buy some shrimp and have thousands in 6 months and get rich. lol. I love starring at my tanks and watching the shrimp and if I can sell off some extras when the tank gets too many shrimp, that money usually went back in to more tank stuff anyways.
> 
> 1 bad day can wipe that out in no time, 1 infection, anything can happen and I see so many new comments everyday, my shrimp are dying, my shrimp have bacteria infections, my shrimp won't breed, I don't have babies that live past a week. There is a lot of time and work into setting up a good tank for them, it's not just put them in some water and get rich.
> 
> I agree, if you like the high end shrimp go for it, I just see peoples comments on forums and can tell they are thinking, if I buy 10 PRL's for $150 each, I can make that back in babies and it doesn't work that way.


I have an out break of pond snails in a tank with yellow shrimp. I squished some snails to see how the shrimp would react and it was entertaining to say the least. Watching them fight for the meat and chasing each other for a nibble was well worth the time spent watching them.
I had a good size colony of RCS and was starting to sell them when I got a bateria infection and wiped them all out but about 20 or so. It's nice to suppliment the hobby with off spring but I agree as hobbyists there is no money to be made.


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## bettaforu

Hey guys, I think you all have gotten off the subject of this thread! 

I posted this to celebrate the berrying of my only female Crystal White Bee 
( this shrimp is not readily available outside Germany) ...not a discussion on the monetary values of breeding PRL or about making money off shrimps!

Lets get back to the original topic....if you want to discuss how to make money on shrimps start your own thread, please! 

FYI: I do not sell my current stock of flower mosura's or snow whites...I have been asked several times to do so from hobbyists here in Canada and the USA, and have refused. These are my own Personal stock and not for resale, so lets be clear on that. 

As for the CWB I may or may not one day sell off these unique shrimps, but for now they are also NOT for sale. I am hoping by breeding them to have enough in a year to be able to cross them on my Taiwans to see what beautiful colorations/patterns come out of that.

If you have any information you'd like to post on Crystal White Bees then by all means post away. I myself have not had much luck finding anything out about them other than they were found in Germany. I am more than happy to discuss them with you, as for PRL/CRS lets just move that to another thread. thanks 

PS: Manana P aren't you supplying Ebiken with your shrimps....I read something about that on his blog


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## jumpsmasher

Dman said:


> Whoops I call them just crystal white shrimp and call yours hybrid a snow white tibee but ether way I'm excited to see how her 2 eggs come out





bettaforu said:


>


I can see where there is some confusion with the naming convention of the crystal white / snow white / golden bee earlier in this thread.

From my understanding golden bee has the red (CRS) genes while Snow White have the black (CBS) genes right?

But if you mix a Snow White with a CRS and get some all white offsprings would those no longer be consider snow white because they have the red genes? What would you call them.. they are not exactly golden bees either...

but yes true Crystal White are very rare.. and you guys are lucky to be able to get your hands on some. Do you know who the father is Anna?


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## bettaforu

hopefully to answer your questions as best I can, but Im not an expert just going on what I personally have experienced 

You are correct that goldens carry the red gene and the snows carry the black gene. I have noticed that the CBS in general (at least mine) all have better whites than the CRS. It is said that breeding the goldens into the CRS/CBS help improve the white.

If you were to breed the snow white to the CRS I think you would get another Snow/CRS but with better quality white.

If it was indeed all white and did not show any yellowing I would call that a snow white (Technically it would also carry the ability to produce the black gene too which it already had from the original CBS line). 
However if it did have any kind of lemon/yellow shading to it then it would be a *golden.*

I have noticed a very distinct difference in the color of a snow when seen next to a golden.

Some of my new snows are from Red Mosura's x Snow and they are white, not gold toned at all.

No I don't know who the father is...there were a lot of the Taiwans all buzzing around one night, so any one of them including the male Crystal White Bee could be the daddy. However If the babies are all CWB then we will know for sure it was the lone male, if any of them are a different color then its a guess as to Bkk, BB, WR or a Mischling of either color as I have both.

Time will tell.


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## MananaP

bettaforu said:


> PS: Manana P aren't you supplying Ebiken with your shrimps....I read something about that on his blog


As i mentioned Frank is the one that does the business side of shrimp, i only breed them. If he ask me to fulfill an order because he is needing a few of this shrimps & a few of that, sure i will say yes. Frank has been a good friend of mine for many years. However if you calculate what i earn in a year in shrimp sale & the amount i spend for the hobby you would be shocked, i believe i only got maybe 5% of what i have spent for shrimps/stuff & that 5% also went back to more shrimp/stuff so basically i did not earn any money but spent money on this hobby. I yell at people for a living & this is my stress reliever after long days of work. 

Anyways, sorry to derail your topic.

MP


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## bettaforu

*!*

I understand what you are saying about not making money on this hobby. I started bringing in shrimps from the US to help the market improve here a few years ago. Was the 1st person to bring in both yellows, blue pearl, and OEBTs, BTOEs, Red Tigers, CWB, CPOs and Blue Shufeldt crays, as well as Blue Phillipine Angelfish and unique colored Bettas. 

I drove down to Buffalo and back again, waited around for boxes to arrive (6 hours sometimes) stayed overnight when some didn't arrive on time and then when I had sold some to people in the GTA/Markham area (120 mile roundtrip from my house) I delivered/met up with them and didn't even charge anyone for my gas....I also drive a leased vehicle. My Husbsand finally said that's it...no more going down and doing this, its ridiculous  you are not even breaking even on the cost of those shrimps/fish, so now I am not bringing in any more shrimps from the US. 

Add all of that to my own 16 tanks (at one time) filled with shrimps that I paid a heavy price just to have....lost a lot of them due to things that were not my fault (50 - 100 Oebts, 10-20 BTOEs, 10 BBs, 6 WRs over a period of 2 years) with no refunds either....I can safely say I don't make money either!

I did all of this to help others enjoy the beauty and diversity of these unique little creatures, and I enjoy showing other hobbyists my accomplishments even if they are not great by anyone else's standards...they're mine 

I hope others will continue on with them when I finally give it up (which won't be that long away as I will be travelling a lot now my Hubby is retired)

I get really mad when people say things like "Well your only in it for the money, your not a true Hobbyist" what the heck?  If you don't call what I have done/sacrificed to get people these shrimps *dedication*, then you all need your heads screwed back on. I can safely say the $$$$$ I spent on this hobby has NOT returned to my bank account! 

Make money in this hobby...I don't think so.


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## MananaP

bettaforu said:


> I understand what you are saying about not making money on this hobby. I started bringing in shrimps from the US to help the market improve here a few years ago. Was the 1st person to bring in both yellows, blue pearl, and OEBTs, BTOEs, Red Tigers, CWB, CPOs and Blue Shufeldt crays, as well as Blue Phillipine Angelfish and unique colored Bettas.
> 
> I drove down to Buffalo and back again, waited around for boxes to arrive (6 hours sometimes) stayed overnight when some didn't arrive on time and then when I had sold some to people in the GTA/Markham area (120 mile roundtrip from my house) I delivered/met up with them and didn't even charge anyone for my gas....I also drive a leased vehicle. My Husbsand finally said that's it...no more going down and doing this, its ridiculous  you are not even breaking even on the cost of those shrimps/fish, so now I am not bringing in any more shrimps from the US.
> 
> Add all of that to my own 16 tanks (at one time) filled with shrimps that I paid a heavy price just to have....lost a lot of them due to things that were not my fault (50 - 100 Oebts, 10-20 BTOEs, 10 BBs, 6 WRs over a period of 2 years) with no refunds either....I can safely say I don't make money either!
> 
> I did all of this to help others enjoy the beauty and diversity of these unique little creatures, and I enjoy showing other hobbyists my accomplishments even if they are not great by anyone else's standards...they're mine
> 
> I hope others will continue on with them when I finally give it up (which won't be that long away as I will be travelling a lot now my Hubby is retired)
> 
> I get really mad when people say things like "Well your only in it for the money, your not a true Hobbyist" what the heck?  If you don't call what I have done/sacrificed to get people these shrimps *dedication*, then you all need your heads screwed back on. I can safely say the $$$$$ I spent on this hobby has NOT returned to my bank account!
> 
> Make money in this hobby...I don't think so.


hahahaha so true, i feel your pain. Anyways, i hope you continue on this hobby though as much as it is wonderful on the flip side of shrimp keeping which others don't see is the dedication & how much effort/time each breeder puts into this hobby. We are private collector, we are not big warehouses full of tanks like what they have in Asia & have employees maintaining these tanks. Hope you have more success with your breeding program though. GL!

MP


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## bettaforu

thanks Stephen, I truly hope to continue to do so for at least a bit longer.
I think I will always have at least 1 Betta and 1 Shrimp tank no matter whether I am travelling or not...at least my daughter can handle that much, even though she's not a fish person


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