# Need advice for my little friend...



## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

My little betta has been sick for a little while. She's in a 2.5 gallon tank (no filtration system) by herself. 

She has white patches and has developed a tiny hole on her top fin lately. 

I am currently treating her with Tetra fungus guard and salt. Three days in and no improvment yet. I had also tried erythromycin last week which didn't seem to work.

In the past I did 20% water change every 3 days. Since she has been sick, I did a 50% water change evey 3 days or so.

Any help/advice is appreciated. Thanks


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

not sure, but I think it might be ick. One way to help ick is with aquarium salt which bettas do like to have some salt in their water anyways


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## JulieFish (Apr 8, 2011)

it doesn't look like ick to me. More like fungus. The salt might help. What temperature is the water at? it's probably a bit too cold for bettas to be at room temperature this time of year, so you may need to get her a little heater to bring the temperature to about 78-80 degrees F.

Good Luck


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## mousey (Mar 28, 2011)

another line to follow is this. Some bettas change color and get white blotches on them. I had the same thing happen to a female betta and treated her for months for fungus only to find out it is a relatively new color variation. I did look it up-- googled something like' white patches on bettas'
If it is not fuzzy and there are no holes in your fish please consider that she may be having a color change.

It is not ick and bettas DO not like salt.
I have had tons ov bettas over the years and they are FRESHWATER fish


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

ive read on many betta sites that they like a little aquarium salt


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm not a Betta expert. But I did end up with two Bettas at one point, the first a rescue, the second I took on because I was asked and was already nursing the first one. First one had torn dorsal fin, abraded gill and ventral fins and had been kept in 90 F water that was so acidic it would not register on the water test. The second ripped off his own tail, to the point he had virtually no tail left.

I used a generous pinch of top quality sea salt for each full water change in 2.5 G tanks for these fish and did 100% WC daily for the first couple of weeks, then did 50% changes every few days thereafter. I also used Indian Almond leaves and green tea. Both were making good recoveries under this regimen of treatment.

Indian Almond leaf comes as either the whole leaves or tea bags of the leaf. It stains the water dark, but has natural antibiotic properties and in their native habitat these leaves are very commonly found in the water. So even though the fish was likely not raised with it, they still enjoy the properties the leaves give the water.

If you get the bags, steep one bag in a gallon of cold water for a couple of days, add about a cup per water change and use for topups.

As for green tea, I drink a pot daily, so it's always available. It's not antibiotic, but has a number of compounds that are generally beneficial for fish as well as humans. I used maybe a quarter cup of tea that had been steeping all day per water change. I use it in all my fish tanks.

Before the second Betta decided to jump one night, he was doing very well and had grown quite a bit of clean new tissue on all the damaged fin edges. The first one grew 3/8 inch of new gill fin tips, a new edge on the ventral fin and nearly all of the tear in the dorsal had healed when he somehow managed to badly damage one eye. On top of everything else that happened to him, he just didn't seem able to get past this last injury and he passed away. Very depressing, as both of them had been doing so very well.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Wow, Thanks for all the responses! Bubbles is also very grateful!

The water temperature is 78F as that is what we keep the room temperature, so all our tanks are 78F. It’s definitely some sort of sickness as we do notice some damage to her fins, but she is eating with gusto and still active. We have another 1 days to go with the Fungus Cure. I think I’ll give it one more day, and then do a 70% water change tomorrow. 

Should I be doing 30% daily water changes after that? My impression is that too many water changes is also stressful on the fish. I was doing a 50% every three days but would step it up if beneficial.

I have been adding some salt with every water change. The ratio I used is about 1 tablespoon for 5 gallons. That is what most recommend for treatment when a fish is ill. I could do a higher concentration salt bath for a few min to see if that would help. But that is also stressful to the fish. I worry that the treatment might actually do more harm than good.

Looks like almond leaves are beneficial. I’m going to try picking some up. 

I’ll keep you guys posted!

Thanks!


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

You could try adding a sponge filter to the tank. Once the sponge is cycled, which you would need a water test kit for, it would allow you to reduce the number or size of water changes. Bettas don't care for much water flow, so most filters move too much water to suit them, but a small sponge would work. 

You can check the sticky for how to tell a tank has cycled, though in this case, you would be doing a fish in cycle, not fishless. With the case of a smaller Betta tank, it might take quite awhile and you'd continue to do WCs as usual until the tests showed zero nitrites, zero ammonia and some reading of nitrates.. maybe around 10-20 ppm. Just an option, if you'd like to reduce the number of changes needed. If you know someone with a cycled tank, they might start the sponge for you, by running it in their tank for a couple of weeks before you use it. That would seed it with the right bacteria and you'd get the results you want quite quickly. But it's only an option.. not necessary and if you aren't into doing the tests and such, there is no need to do so. Don't want to freak you out by complicating matters. 

If you do decide to add a sponge filter, it will help to add a chunk of java moss. Live plants will add useful bacteria to a cycle and also use up some of the nitrates produced by it. My Bettas both seemed to enjoy sleeping in the moss and I certainly like the look of real moss over plastic plants. Java moss is low light, so long as it gets some light it should survive.

But I'd think that the majority of people keep Bettas in unfiltered tanks, and just do frequent water changes. I've read various recommendations, 50% every few days, 30% every few days, etc. As I said earlier, for my sick Bettas, at first I did 100% changes daily, for a couple of weeks, mainly to try to avoid any buildup of bacterial agents that might have caused fin rot on the damaged fins. Once the fish started looking better and eating better, I backed off the daily changes. Neither fish seemed particularly stressed by even the 100% changes.

Smaller tanks, obviously, need more changes, as the less water there is, the faster it accumulates ammonia from fish waste. Overfeeding will foul water fast, so if there is uneaten food, remove it. If you do WCs gently and properly, they won't overly stress the fish, certainly not as much as allowing the water quality to deteriorate would. Make sure the temperature of new water matches the old, to avoid temperature shock and use the appropriate amount of conditioner to remove chlorine. Nice to see Bubbles has an owner who care about keeping him happy.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

I used to keep and breed bettas some time ago. That looks like a fungal infection to me. Are there any sharp rocks, or tank mates that may have nipped her? Try using on aquarium salt, remove any plastic plants that may have caused a scratch, same goes for rock works, etc., as well maybe add some Java Moss. It's great for natural filtration.

Keep the water changes up, 50% is good, you could probably go to 75% if it's not getting any better soon.


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## mousey (Mar 28, 2011)

If it doesn't respond to treatments and the fish is otherwise healthy, consider that the fish is changing into a mottled color. As I said there is lots of documentation about that.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi there,

I think it might be COLUMNARIS. We treated for Fungal and it didn't respond. It actually may have gotten a little worse during that treatment. The top fin where their was a tiny hole got alot bigger. Fungus treatments and eurthomycin didn't work and it indicates that on the website.

Looks like methaline blue is one treatment, but don't have any right now. Although I think the fungus treatment had some of that in it as it did trun the water slightly blue. Copper sulphate is supposed to be effective also.

I upped the salt level quite a bit. Apparantly columnaris does not like salt and it is never found in salt water aquariums. It seems like some of the white patches might have gotten a little smaller. 

Gonna give it another day and see if it gets any better. Did about a 80% water change last night. Will do a 70% water change tomorrow. Water quality should be ok. Just salty.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I sure hope it is NOT columnaris.. that's a nasty, nasty infection. Copper sulphate is an older treatment that is popular but it can be hard on the gills.. antibiotics would be better, I think.

Here's a link to an article on fishvet. This disease tends to progress rapidly, and I hope that means your fish does not have it.. but the article might be helpful in determining whether the symptoms really match this ailment and treatment options.

There is a lot of info out there on columnaris, none of it terribly encouraging, but salt and water changes are a good start. Wish you luck.

http://www.fishvet.com/columnaris.htm


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

It has general symptoms of Columnaris except that it doesn’t seem to be fast acting. Columinars usually kills within days. We treated for fungus and that for sure didn’t work, and fungus treatments don’t work for Columinars. Not sure if it is Columinars but it must be a bacteria of some sort.

I took her out and put her in a fresh bowl with 100% new water. Also dosing her with two antibiotics today. Eryithromycin, and Metrodonizole. One targets gram +ve bacteria, and the other targets gram –ve bacteria. Also kept the salt in the water. At least antibiotics aren’t toxic to her and all it can do is possibly help. 

Her top fin was disintegrating and quickly getting close to her flesh. Have to try something new and something drastic. 

The only good news is that she has always been in her own bowl and is 100% isolated from the other fish. Also making sure not to cross contaminate any other tank.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I am really sorry to hear how things are going. The fin deterioration does not sound encouraging. If it reaches the body the fish may not have any chance at all, unfortunately. I don't mean to be unkind, but if it gets that bad, you may wish to consider euthanasia. If the fish is not recovering and fin rot gets to the body, chances for recovery are next to nil, I am sorry to say.

Euthanasia is not difficult technically, but emotionally it can be very hard to do. I have had to euthanize two of my danios who came down with Dropsy. It is incurable and they were obviously suffering. I felt terrible doing it, but at least the fish was out of its pain and as pet owners, it is the one kindness we can do for them if there is no hope.

There are some excellent articles with instructions on how to do it very humanely. I'll find you the link to the one I think is the best. You'll need pure essential oil of cloves and some alcohol.

Here's a good link to the clove oil method. http://www.oscarfishlover.com/helpful-articles/euthanize-fish

The above article does not call for alcohol.. but using only clove oil can take quite a long time and there is, sadly, a chance the fish has not expired before you dispose of it. If you go with clove oil, be sure the fish has not moved it's gills for at least ten minutes to be certain is has passed on. Using alcohol speeds it up and removes the uncertainty. Once the fish is deeply asleep and not moving, add a good quantity of alcohol to the clove oil bath, about a quarter of the total volume of the bath. You can use Vodka or you could also use rubbing alcohol. Alcohol will ensure a swift, painless passing, and because the clove oil is an anesthetic, the fish feels nothing at all. Clove oil is used as a fish anesthetic, and it's quite effective, so you can be assured your fish will not feel pain or suffer from it's use. Follow the instructions and the fish will be very calm and not be upset at all, it will just go to sleep.

I sincerely hope it does not come to this.. but if it does, it is at least a small comfort to know you saved the poor animal from suffering.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

As a last resort, we have been using both antibiotics and it looks like she isn't getting worse. She was deteroriating quite rapidly just a few days ago, and now their might even be some signs of improvment.

Even though she looks like she is in rough shape, she is still active, and eats well.

We are hoping that she pulls through. She is definitly a fighter.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Where there is life there is hope. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

How's the patient?


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## SmokeSR (Jan 28, 2009)

Read the first couple posts and thought I'd chime in. I don't have time to read all the lengthy responses yet so my response may not be useful or may have already been covered. 

Since your tank is unfiltered and uncycled, you're fine to do 100% water change and that might be a good start. I'd also clean anything else (gravel, decorations, fake plants) as well. 

Please check your water temperature, not room temperature. I have a feeling the water is too cold. 

I find bettas respond well to higher temperatures + aquarium salt. They're often able to overcome sicknesses on their own once their ideal conditions are met.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi there,

She was deteriorating, but since we started the antibiotics, she stabilized. Might be some signs of improvement. A little concerned since I would have thought that the improvement should be more prominent by now, but I will take what I can get right now.

We do daily 80% water changes now and still dose the antibiotics and add the required salt to maintain the salt level. The room temperature is 78F and very stable as that is what the thermostat is set to. When we do the water change, the fresh conditioned water is sitting at room temperature for several hours so that should also be 78F and should match her bowl temperature.

We haven’t had too many issues with sick fish in the past, so we don’t have too much experience in treating illnesses. If we ever had an issue, it was usually with a recent purchased fish that was already sick or got sick during the transition/stress and was treated in the quarantine tank. The betta is the only fish that we keep in an unfiltered/cycled bowl. Months ago we did keep her for a few weeks in one of our tanks but she would be aggressive with some of our other fish, so we put her in a bowl. I guess it’s harder to maintain the water quality in a non cycled bowl. My guess is that maybe we needed to do more water changes in the future. 

I guess there is always something to learn. Posting here helps get info from others experiences and can possibly help others as well in gaining some. 

Just checked on her and fed her a pellet. She gobbled it down. As long as she’s eating that’s a good sign. Bubbles says thanks for your input and concern.


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## nightowl1350 (Mar 19, 2006)

I hope she is doing better. 

Not to question methods for euthanasia, but when I was breeding angels and had to cull some I used a pail with a few trays of ice cubes, added cold water and let it sit for about 15 minutes or so. Once I netted the culls I put them in it took seconds for them to stop breathing. Very quick, before they hit the bottom of the pail they were gone.

Sad thing to have to do to any fish, but it seemed painless, no thrashing around at all.


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## SmokeSR (Jan 28, 2009)

Buddy said:


> The room temperature is 78F and very stable as that is what the thermostat is set to. When we do the water change, the fresh conditioned water is sitting at room temperature for several hours so that should also be 78F and should match her bowl temperature.


This still concerns me. Am I the only one? I would really suggest a heater for your betta. It would do much better in a regulated temperature because temps change throughout the day and especially at night. I know my non-heated tanks drop to 69*F. Or at least get an aquarium thermometer to see what your water temp is.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Generally when keeping Bettas, I'd say the hell with a heater. BUT when they're sick I would absolutely agree with you Smoke. 

You should really provide better temps to aid in healing. Even an ambient light on the top of the tank (iridescent - screw in type) should help to give off some heat and provide better temperatures for your fish to heal at. Smokes right, the temp of water can drop drastically overnight without your realization. I hope your betta survives and thrives, but make sure you take care of that temp issue


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

I'd think getting a thermometer is essential. It's true that if the water temp is variable, it's stressful. Won't likely bother a healthy fish, but a sick one is a different story, and if it's very cold or windy out, the temperature in a room can change quite a bit before the thermostat reacts and the heating warms the room again. Thermometers don't cost a lot.. at least you'd know if the temperatures are remaining stable.

As far using an ice bath for euthanization, I would not. If you read what's out there, freezing was, at one time, considered to be humane, and you still see it being recommended, but it is no longer considered a humane method. I certainly would not want to freeze to death, in or out of water. I've never heard of an ice bath being considered humane. I did see one recommendation for plunging into boiling water. I would guess the person who said it figured it was ok because people do that to lobster and crab when they cook them. But I'd hardly call it humane. Sudden shock, intense pain, a huge surge of hormones and a storm of nerve signals as the body prepares for the last effort to survive, and at some point, death. Plenty of time to suffer.

Being plunged into freezing water is not so very different. Intense cold is very painful, it's commonly used to study pain responses. It it was a human, you'd have severe shock, then involuntary gasping for breath, virtually instant severe shivering, which is painful itself and quite hard on the muscles. Because the body is programmed to preserve core temperatures to the last, circulation shuts down except to the brain and vital internal organs, thus, quite soon, your legs and arms stop working. By now you might LOOK dead, but you are still alive and suffering, until you drown or succumb to the cold. Might all take five or ten minutes, but if you were in a flotation device, might take a lot longer to go just from the cold. I wouldn't want to do that to any living thing. That a fish did not thrash in a ice bath suggests to me that it was in severe shock.

Clove oil is routinely used to anesthetize fish for various procedures. Not going to comment on what I think of some of the procedures it is used for, but it's a very good piscine anesthetic. An overdose is painless, causing no distress of any kind if used correctly. I can speak to that because I have had to do it twice. The alcohol just speeds up the final moment and ensures the poor creature has actually passed on before you dispose of it. Because alcohol will burn and cause pain, you must use the clove oil first. 

Gill movements slow down dramatically with clove oil and become extremely shallow, so some close observation is needed to ensure at least ten minutes go by with no gill movement, no matter if you use alcohol or not.

Of the other methods used to euthanize, I think the only other one accepted as being reasonably humane is swift beheading with a very sharp knife. For a big fish it might be the most practical way, as you'd need a large bath and quite a lot of clove oil for a big fish. But for small ones, which are so difficult to hold onto and will struggle, I'd doubt my ability to do it cleanly, assuming I could bring myself to it at all. Clove oil avoids struggle, and the only stress involved is in catching the fish, which is unavoidable for any method.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

Who was talking about putting the betta down??? I must've missed that tid-bit.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Hold on! She’s actually doing better! She actually has some regrowth on her top fin. She’s very active and eats very well. But she still has some white patches that seem to be lingering and I would have thought that it would be much better by now…. Still keeping up the antibiotics.

The thermostat is set to 78F 24/7 and it keeps the temperature within 1 F throughout the day/night. We like to pretend we are in the tropics with our fish  We also have a temperature device that measures and records the min/max temperature and humidity of the room. It’s records min/max of 78 to 79F so temperature is very stable. Our other tanks have no heaters and the temperature is always between 78 to 80F. We have digital thermostats on those tanks. When we turn on the lights, they can raise the water temp by about ½ a degree over that 7 hr period. The only time we might have some fluctuation in temperature is when we switch from heating to AC in Spring and Fall.

Her water change water is also kept at room temperature before we do the change, so it is also 78F. So she should see no temperature fluctuations during the water change.

We do have a 50 watt heater that isn’t been used, but as of right now we have her in only 1 gallon during the medication since it’s easy to dose and also cuts down on the meds needed. I think a 50 watt heater might be to strong for 1 gallon. I never tried it. I could move her to an area closer to one of the heating vents. That could raise the temp a couple of degrees. Should I aim for 80F? 

We do have clove oil. We bought it a while back. Only had to use it once as we had a platy that was pretty old and probably was dying of old age. It’s sad but not much you can do and it pops up especially when their life span is only a couple of years.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

a 50 watt heater probably won't even fit in the tank. 50 watts is for about 10 gallons, in my 5.5 I use a 25 watt. Im pretty sure a 50 watt in a 1 gallon would be bad news. But it might help if the temp was 80 if you can buy a very small heater about 5to 10 watts I'd guess.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

When Buddy mentioned that it looked like fin rot had nearly reached the fish's body, I thought it would not be a bad idea to tell him how to humanely euthanize a fish, in the sad event it became necessary. Needless to say I am very pleased to hear Bubbles is better and that it won't be necessary to put the fish down.

I'd leave things as they are if the fish is growing new tissues and eating well, it's a good sign. Stick with the routine you've been using. 

But I mentioned how to put fish down because, imho, it's better to have the means on hand and know how to do it ahead of time, because it always seems to be that when nobody is handy for advice that the need for euthanasia suddenly becomes apparent to an owner.


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## BettaFx (Oct 22, 2012)

hi try some epsom salt. best of luck! 

bettafx,


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

How's Bubbles doing ?


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

either well on the mend or lost by now I'm guessing, I hope all goes well.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi There,

Bubbles past away last night. 

We noticed that she was starting to get a new hole in her tail fin and was starting to progress. The fin growth on the top fin seemed to have stalled. She was active and eating well, but still had those white patches that were lingering.

We decided to try giving her a salt dip since previously the hole in the top fin had been very rapid before and we wanted to try something to stop it. Never tried that before and thought it might help. The dip is supposed to be effective with bacteria so we thought it might be worth a shot. Didn’t realize that it could be so detrimental.

We dipped her in for about 2 min yesterday. But it really affected her, and she never recovered. After when I looked at the website it said not to try this with very ill fish or small fish. I guess it was too much for her.

We never tried the salt dip before, and I don’t think we will ever try it ever again. Maybe the salt bath for 30 to 1 hour would have been better. The dip is very high salt concentration and it’s supposed to be for 30 seconds up to 5 min. I guess that a difference of 30 seconds is a huge impact to the fish, especially when it is not healthy to start off with. . I guess we learned something the hard way. 

Bubbles was over 1 year old and I would think that she had a good life. 

Thanks for all your help. It really helps when you get some support


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

Well, I hope that you learned a lot at the very least so you can help fish in the future. Not as bad of a loss if you learned something.


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## Fishfur (Mar 4, 2012)

Sorry to hear of your loss. It's hard when you've tried so hard to save them. Some learning experiences are harder than others.


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## Ryan.Wilton (Dec 12, 2012)

:\ That's just stupid after all that effort. Man that sucks to hear sorry about your loss.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2012)

Thank you all again. Learning the hard way. Hope my experience/mistake will help others. Really appreciate all you folks' help and support.


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