# Skeptical reefkeeping - chasing numbers and phosphates



## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

Interesting article on high phosphates and chasing numbers

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/159813-skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

what a timely article. there's a thread raging on RC about this. and on our neighboring fragtank forum too. lol.


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

holysh!t! SPS growing FASTER in high phosphates?!!!!!!!!! woohoo!

"On a natural coral reef it is almost impossible to achieve nutrient concentrations this high without also turning the reef into a swamp, choked by algae and full of detritus. However, in captivity it is possible to have higher phosphate concentrations than typically occur in nature while at the same time preventing algal overgrowth and many of the other negative, indirect effects of elevated nutrients on corals. Under these elevated phosphate conditions, but in the absence of indirect stressors, at least some corals (and probably most of them) grow faster and perform “better” than they do under low phosphate conditions. 

Go ahead and say it with us: ho…ly…crap."


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

You should read this thread...http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346279


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

mind blowing stuff!


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Yeah... this kind of stuff hurts my head when I'm reading it... at least it's not as bad as Randy Holmes-Farley.... I stop reading as soon as I see his name LOL


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

Luckily he was only mentioned at the end of the article. I do enjoy his posts though but I find myself rereading them at least a couple of times lol. 🔬


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## 12273 (Nov 3, 2012)

I just change water with good salt. Clean glass (sometime LOL) and feed fish. Coral, inverts and fish happy. Water clean and nothing dead. Outside of that too much headache. No dosing and adding crap. I don't chase numbers. 

My goal was easy, enjoyable and something that is reasonably priced . Those articles hurt my little brain :/ 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## deeznutz (Aug 21, 2013)

Interesting read, but its not he first time of heard of it. There's a guy on RC that posted a thread "guess my P04" His sps tank looks great and I'm guessing it's up there in the double digits. I just didn't have the time to find the actual numbers.

Regardless of the article, I'm still keeping my p04 at acceptable levels, well at least for me anyways 0.03-0.12 respectably. But I still have algae lol.

-dan


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

I don't test PO4. I run GFO and have since the start. If I start to see algae I just cut back on feeding...


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## Vinoy Thomas (Jan 4, 2013)

fury165 said:


> You should read this thread...http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346279





fesso clown said:


> I don't test PO4. I run GFO and have since the start. If I start to see algae I just cut back on feeding...


Hey guys,

Looking at the article Fury linked to RC, a few guys are suggesting MORE feeding on schedule everyday is actually better. Which leads to better coral appearance etc.

Whats your guys opinion on this?


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## picoreef (Dec 26, 2013)

Ive noticed that feeding my tank more frequently has definetly shown increase in coral growth. Just be smart on how you feed. I dont overfeed and when I feed frozen stuff I always always always defrost and rinse thoroughly with RO water before dumping into the tank. My phoshates have increased alittle to 0.025 but I have less algae problems now and my sand has never been whiter. Always thought my diatom issue was due too feeding so I used to feed sparingly to the point where my fish looked skinney and my diatom issue wasnt going away. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

picoreef said:


> when I feed frozen stuff I always always always defrost and rinse thoroughly with RO water before dumping into the tank.


Apparently this popular belief is unfounded...Randy Holmes Farley did an article on phosphates and frozen foods and pretty much concluded that tests showed that un rinsed frozen foods contributed little more phosphates to the tank than rinsed foods



> Rinsing Foods and the Effect on Phosphate
> Now that we have some information on the phosphate in foods, we can critically examine the concern that many aquarists have about foods, and specifically their rinsing of frozen foods before use. A typical test you see is someone taking a cube of fish food, thawing it, and putting it into a half cup of water. They then test that water for phosphate and find it "off the charts". Let's assume that means 1 ppm phosphate, which would give a very dark blue color in many phosphate tests. Bear in mind this is a thought problem, not an actual measured value, but it is typical of what people think the answer is.
> 
> Is that a lot of phosphate? Well, there are two ways to think of the answer.
> ...


Here is the link to the full article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry. Just for 50seven!


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## Vinoy Thomas (Jan 4, 2013)

picoreef said:


> Ive noticed that feeding my tank more frequently has definetly shown increase in coral growth. Just be smart on how you feed. I dont overfeed and when I feed frozen stuff I always always always defrost and rinse thoroughly with RO water before dumping into the tank. My phoshates have increased alittle to 0.025 but I have less algae problems now and my sand has never been whiter. Always thought my diatom issue was due too feeding so I used to feed sparingly to the point where my fish looked skinney and my diatom issue wasnt going away.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


Hey,

Very interesting. Contrary to what I've been informed by many, this is really exciting new information.

More specifically, how many times daily are you guys feeding (for the guys who believe in frequent feeding).

Thanks,
Vinoy

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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

I feed 3-4 times a day, but sparingly. The majority of them are dry flakes or pellets and one PE Mysis meal. Previously I did a single light feeding and skipped at least once a week. 

My phosphates have increased from 0ppm to .05-.07ppm and I am now working to bring it to a target of .04ppm by tweaking my nutrient/phosphate management regimen (GFO, carbon dosing, Cheato and skimming). I'm following the dirty SPS thread and others like it closely to see what my results will be


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## deeznutz (Aug 21, 2013)

You have to be carefully with more feedings. The most important part is the balancing act between imports of nutrients and export of them.

I feed seaweed once a day, accompanied by a flakes(sparingly)mysis whenever I can remember and pellets. I feed the pellets in successions to ensure they are getting eaten and not just floating to the back of the tank. 

I've read before that flake foods are high in P04. I'm not sure though, but flake foods always get dispersed so there will be alot that doesn't get eaten. This is why I feed sparingly.

-dan


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

interesting. I'm going to feed more frequently.


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## 50seven (Feb 14, 2010)

Putting my experience into context with this article, I tend to agree, though it is hard for us to truly compare our tank water to that of the ocean, as the ocean still has so much about it we don't know; plus it is so massive and therefore incredibly much more stable as a whole.

Given that for the first three years keeping a marine reef, I have never used any kind of phosphate control other than conservative feedings and regular WC's. This all changed when I got an uncontrollable GHA outbreak last May (as a partial result of major overfeeding), which took over the tank and killed half my corals over the next 9 months. If the rock in my tank had the ability to buffer the PO43 to a manageable level that the corals could thrive in, maybe the rock in the ocean helps to do the same- absorb excess amounts when dissolved PO43 are high, and leech it back when they are low, in effect keeping a balanced amount in the water column. There's a lot of LR in the ocean...

It's when PO43 levels exceed the ability of the rock to buffer it is when things go wrong. Such as my overfeeding incident, or the Hawaiian case of sewage and runoff.



fury165 said:


> Here is the link to the full article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry. Just for 50seven!


Thanks 

Pellets trump flakes because there is less lost into the water column as uneaten fragments.

I've been feeding once per day for the last four years. Never lost a fish due to malnutrition that I can tell, but maybe there's more to multiple feedings than just fish's belly comfort...


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## Bayinaung (Feb 24, 2012)

well a tank can be too clean and causes crashes. check out this guy's tank: it crashed due to lack of nutrients. (TDB320reef)

Before crash:










Post crash recovery (lost most of the acros and stylos):









"Interesting ...So do you think if you would have added this nitrogen mixture all along, that you could have prevented the crash you had over the summer?

Was the issue that your corals were starving due to a nutrient imbalance related to an increased demand from the biopellets?

Yes the corals were starving as the system was so efficient at removing nitrates and phosphates. What little bit was put in the system was quickly removed by the biopellets, bacteria, wet skimming and clams. Nitrates remained 0 for a few months after I stopped using biopellets. Given the weak corals, HVAC issues and several adjustments there after the corals were giving up. Once the Nitrates hit .2 - 1 the system came back alive but the growth was slow. The solution was to turn the BP's back on with minimal biopellets and slow flow. Dry skim and extend water changes. Add nutrients to get the CNP process in gear. I am sure what I put in the morning is removed by the end of the day. Corals are now Rich in color, Less expense in WC, Less effort changing the skimmer, and I have not had an STn event since I change the philosophy. The damaged corals are growing back and encrusting over the dead spots.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 11:00:31 PM by tdb320reef »
"


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## Flexin5 (Nov 12, 2011)

Good article! 

Ok so I'm no expert, but from my experience, you need to find that balance between feeding, and cleaning your tank. In the end, I think it comes down to husbandry. 


Typically, you put yourself on a schedual of feeding. It's not like you would feed 1/2 a cube of mysis one day, then 3 cubes each day for the next 3 days for example; instead you feed say a cube a day. In other words, you know how much your putting into your tank on a regular basis. So what does this mean? You know how much nutrients your importing. 

Then you look at your export, if your phosphates are high, you have a visible algae problem, then obviously your not exporting enough. I find that a lot of ppl are quick to throw chemicals and media to solve the problem, this can and may work, but I think that this can be accomplished by diluting the phosphate and/or nitrate through water changes. The beneficial part of that is having trace elements being replenished frequently. 

Of course sometimes water changes may not be enough, (you're not going to change 50% of your water every week) so some media can be implemented. I use to chase numbers, and all it led me too was a nutrient poor system. Ever since I've more than doubled what I was feeding, took carbon and gfo offline, and continued with my 20 gallon/week water change did my corals regain color. 

Instead of chasing numbers with test kits, I spend more time observing my corals, looking at things like growth, color and polyp extention, while noting if there's any algae anywhere and how much. If I see that polyp extention or something not right with the corals, that's when I break out the test kits to give me an IDEA on what's going on. Eventually you'll find your tanks balance, keep up on what your doing to achieve that balance, and enjoy. as of right now my only removal of nutrients are skimming, water changes and chaeto. 

That's what I think atleast.


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