# First Time with Saltwater



## Lorano

Hello all,

Just starting my first saltwater tank. Have kept discus and now want to try saltwater. Keeping the discus tank, but attempting to start a 55/75/90 gallon saltwater. A lot of people say bigger is better when it comes to fish keeping, for the fish and long-term stability and reduced risk, but for a first timer in saltwater, would a smaller tank be easier to maintain and set up or a larger tank?

I have budget and time resricitions so with that in mind, please give some advice on what I should do.

Here is the plan so far:

1. Get a 55/75 gallon tank(leaning towards 75 gallon) and stand (wanted to get a reef ready tank but cost got in the way, and not comfortable with drilling)
2. Hang on back overflow
3. 60lbs-70lbs live sand max
4. 60-80lbs fiji live rock
5. 15/20/30 gallon sump - Need advice onhow to place baffles to reduce air bubbles and trap debris that the filter socks do not trap, trying to make water as clean as possible without ro/di
6. Coralife 125 protein skimmer (not decided yet, might stretch the budget a little to get a better one, but does anyone have any experience using this brand?)
7. Quiet One 4000 return pump (990 gph)
8. 5 lbs live sand, 5lbs some live rock in sump - Should this be the largest part of the sump?
9. Maxijet 1200 powerhead
10. Have a few hundred bioballs that could be used in the sump but also have a Rena XP 3 (175 gallon) canister filter - Which should I use?

That's it for now. Am I missing anything? 

Want to have a reef down the road. Would I need an automatic dosing system or manual supplements?

Do I absolutely need an RO/DI system? Again, budget constraints, might get one in a few months, but not now. Any serious problems without it?

Also, what sort of maintenance schedule am I looking at? LFS told me with sump it would be 10% every two weeks, without sump 20% every week.

As for mixing salt, how far in advance can salt be mixed? Can you mix salt for the entire month and keep it stored? And if it can be stored does it have to be heated the whole time or just before adding to the tank?

What sort of stocking options am I looking at with the protein skimmer above and maybe a 75 gallon?

Here's what I would like (will overstock for sure but here goes)

1. Hippo tang (small)
2. Yellow tang (small)
3. Blonde Naso/Powder blue tang (small)
4. 2 Oscellaris Clowns
5. 1 goby
6. Flame angel/ coral beauty
7. Wrasse
8. Anthias
9. 4-5 Chromis
10. Foxface
11. Yellow longnose butterfly
12. Banded butterfly
13. Moorish Idol
14. Niger Trigger

Will upgrade to a larger tank in a year or two but for now, can the tangs survive if bought small?

Any help would be appreciated.


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## twobytwo

Step 1: Read Read Read and then Read some more. The questions you're asking means you haven't researched enough yet.

In terms of your plan, it is very confusing. 
1&2) I would personally get a used drilled tank than using a HOB overflow. In fact, on the first page of the Hardware classifieds here, there is at least one 75 and one 55 drilled tank, priced reasonably.

5) Lots of articles online about baffles, I guess you are going to DIY it? a 15 might be too small. I do not use filter socks. _ trying to make water as clean as possible without ro/di_ huuh? this comment does not compute. the filter sock will not replicate the "cleanness" of RO/DI with tap water.

6) I did not like it. Loud and cheap construction. Bubble magnus makes an affordable skimmer with a good reputation.

9) I dont think theres a lot of people who use the maxijets for circulation. But look at the Cobalt as they are typically quieter. or pick up a Hydor Korallia, they can be affordable.

10) I would use neither. Google it, both are typically nitrate factories in reef tanks and would be unnecessary in a low demand saltwater tank.

You're missing a light. This was the most expensive part of my build. But, if you have no plans to have corals, it isnt as important.

Dont worry about dosing right now. You dont even have water in a tank yet so noone will be able to tell you what your parameters would be a year from now.

Absolutely Need? No, but after a year and a half my RO/Di system has probably saved me $ over buying it from the Fish store. I'm too paranoid with water of unknown quality from a store.

WTF with that fish list? Seriously, I dont know if you're joking or trolling us. Like half of the fish need a much bigger tank, and you're planning a Niger Trigger, Yellow/Hippo/Naso/Powder Blue, Longnose Butterfly, Moorish Idol,..... Those all pretty much need 120 or larger, a few even 180 or larger. And you're considering a 55 gallon???

I love the enthusiasm, but in the nicest way possible... I would really rethink many of the choices you have stated. I dont know why you are cheaping out on all your equipment to get fish that can get expensive,which will probably suffer in the tank. It sound like you're trying to build a rolls royce and have a handful of Lego parts you want to use.

*EDIT* sorry, I hope I didnt sound too negative. As kamal says, take your time. deals pop up all the time, people change equipment, stores have clearances. Dont take shortcuts with reefing/saltwater. A lot of it is patience. This really is one of the greatest hobbies I'd ever gotten into and have met lots of great people through it! Maybe you can have your tank going in time for the BBQ.

Oh, and learn about QT's - they're easy and will save you headaches down the road.


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## kamal

We love having new members in the salt community and it can sound like lecturing but slow and steady will lead to better success  As per the post above, do some more reading. I recently picked up a drilled 75g with 30g sump and stand for $100. Keep your eyes peeled and they will turn up. 

I would never use a HOB overflow due to the potential flooding risks. many of the guys on here have emergency drains included in their tanks as we all fear overflows/blocked drains.

I am currently saving up for a new skimmer a Bubble magus curve 5 in fact. they are around $220 CAD. Used they turn up for around $100 from time to time. 

I would say if budget is an issue take your time and hunt out the used equipment, it will keep you happier longer term. 

In regards to the fish choices, def please do more research on care and tank requirements before you jump in. Most of those are not suitable for your suggested tank size.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Lorano

*Revision*

Sorry, should have been clearer.

The fish on the list are only for reference and is a wishlist if you will. Which of the fish on that list would you put a 75 gallon? Wanted all of you with more experience to choose and recommend fish from thay list to put in the tank. I know O can't possibly have them all on a 75 gallon. Mentioned a larger tank in my first post so that is the tank I plan on putting 3 or 4 tangs in, maybe 150 gallon. For now as I said I'm leaning toward the 75 gallon and will probably get that.

As for the skimmer, the coralife is what my fish store recommended for tanks that size and for medium quality. Might get an SWC or a Vertex rated for maybe 120 gallons. Would those be good choices?

About the confusion with ro/di what I meant about keeping water quality good without one was, if I couldn't have ro water, I'd at least try to get as much debris out of the water as possible with filter socks etc.

Also, what was the fear about hang on back overflows? That water would overflow my sump? How would that happen? If the power went out, wouldn't the siphon be broken as soon as the water fell below the intake level? Would have to have a large sump for that I suppose to contain the extra water but I don't have a problem getting a 45 or 55 gallon tank for a sump. Is there still a danger of overflowing? At least that's how my lfs explained it to me. Even with a sump, would I need a canister filter?

Also as for lights I have a 4 bulb t5 system by AquaticLife with night time LED's.

For powerheads will be getting koralias. Would I need 1 or 2?

TWO of my most important questions still hasn't been answered.

1. Can I store mixed saltwater for a month or two's worth of water changes? Or should I mix it fresh the day before each water change? If I can store it, should I have a heater in all the time or just heat it up before adding it?

2. What should my water change schedule be with a 75 gallon tank and a 30 gallon (or larger) sump? Everyone seems to have a different idea about the right percentage so what is the general one that would keep a medium to heavily stocked reef tank in good condition provided that the parameters are relatively stable?

Let me know if there is anything else I should know.


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## tom g

*choices*

hey there and welcome to the forum ...most will recommend bigger is better ...
it will save u money in the long run..my first suggestion would be to decide on what tank u want ...considering the space u have .. it would suck to buy a skimmer for a max 120 tank and then do a upgrade in the near future and need a bigger skimmer .. no one wants to throw money away .. we all have been there start small then way too soon we upgrade only to get rid of equipment we got for a smaller tank ...so decide on what u want and u think u can maintain then go from there ... my suggestion would be to get a drilled tank ...rather then try to find someone to drill it ...get a ro/di unit it will help u get on the right track rather then carting water and starting off a algae cyle that u cant get rid of ...
jmho
cheers 
tom


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## Crayon

twobytwo said:


> WTF with that fish list? Seriously, I dont know if you're joking or trolling us. Like half of the fish need a much bigger tank, and you're planning a Niger Trigger, Yellow/Hippo/Naso/Powder Blue, Longnose Butterfly, Moorish Idol,..... Those all pretty much need 120 or larger, a few even 180 or larger. And you're considering a 55 gallon???


Hey Noah,
This doesn't sound like you!!! Such attitude. Did you give out your account info to Alt?

Ok, in terms of your fish list, forget the Moor. 9 out 10 people will tell you they should not be in aquariums. And they don't do well with fast moving fish.

i have all of those tangs in my 175 including a Niger trigger, (ok it's a powder brown, not a powder blue) and I agree with Twobytwo, you could get one, or 2 off that list but not all of them.
Pass on the Niger for now. These are curious fish and mine is constantly looking for something to keep himself busy. He swims into the pump jet stream for hours at a time, he plays with my hand when I move corals around (and if I ignore him he will nip me) and he has been known to swim laps around the gyre. So he needs space and a tv. Or a game boy.

In terms of equipment, it sounds like you are trying to do a refugium in your sump, which lots of people do. You need more sump space to do that. My quarantine tank sump has a skimmer and a return pump, I barely fit those into a 20 gallon, and there is no way you will get enough room for a refugium unless you go larger. It's something you can build towards, not necessary right now.

Your plan is sound with a couple tweaks. This is a learning curve, we all made mistakes and would do things differently now. So keep asking questions. There is lots you need to work out still.


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## blunthead

i have a 75 corner flow that ive been thinking of selling
just gotta find the plumbing


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## solarz

Lorano said:


> TWO of my most important questions still hasn't been answered.
> 
> 1. Can I store mixed saltwater for a month or two's worth of water changes? Or should I mix it fresh the day before each water change? If I can store it, should I have a heater in all the time or just heat it up before adding it?
> 
> 2. What should my water change schedule be with a 75 gallon tank and a 30 gallon (or larger) sump? Everyone seems to have a different idea about the right percentage so what is the general one that would keep a medium to heavily stocked reef tank in good condition provided that the parameters are relatively stable?
> 
> Let me know if there is anything else I should know.


I don't see why you couldn't store your saltwater for months. It's not like it'll go bad or anything.

As for heater, that depends on how much of a temperature difference there would be without a heater, and how much water you're changing in one go.

A temporary temperature fluctuation of a few degrees won't really matter.

As for water change schedule, it's the same as FW: whatever suits your system. Some people change religiously every week, other people go for months or even years without any water change.


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## Addicted

I'll have a go at your questions...


Here is the plan so far:

1. Get a 55/75 gallon tank(leaning towards 75 gallon) and stand (wanted to get a reef ready tank but cost got in the way, and not comfortable with drilling)
- Buy a used tank already drilled if you are not comfortable doing it yourself. Easy to find a used drilled tank cheaper than a new non drilled tank.

2. Hang on back overflow
- Don't do it. See #1. The fear with HOB overflows is not when power goes out, it's when power is on... if the siphon fails, you'll overflow the display tank. Too risky.

3. 60lbs-70lbs live sand max
- OK. I have 60 in my 75g, and it's more than enough

4. 60-80lbs fiji live rock
- OK

5. 15/20/30 gallon sump - Need advice onhow to place baffles to reduce air bubbles and trap debris that the filter socks do not trap, trying to make water as clean as possible without ro/di
- Get the largest that fits in your stand. The primary use for baffles is to kepe the skimmer section at a constant depth. Can be used for buble trap if needed. Baffles and filter socks have nothing to do with ro/di water. ro/di filtration removes the minerals and other impurities that you do not see. I would suggest the RO/DI filter to be one of the most important purchases for your setup. Will save you major unsightly headaches in the tank, and save you money in the long run. Win/Win.

6. Coralife 125 protein skimmer (not decided yet, might stretch the budget a little to get a better one, but does anyo

7. Quiet One 4000 return pump (990 gph)
- Don't purchase a return pump util the entire system is planned out. You plumbing, overflow, etc will dictate the gph you need out of a pump. You'll need to determine the flow you need, then review the flow charts from the pump choices based on the actual head loss of your specific system.

8. 5 lbs live sand, 5lbs some live rock in sump - Should this be the largest part of the sump?
- Unless you are going with a large refugium (which is not likely given your sump size), there is no point in having sand/rock in the sump. It will jsut cause you problems. Put that live sand and live rock in your DT.

9. Maxijet 1200 powerhead
- Do not use maxijets as powerheads. They are loud and weak. Hydor's are OK for entry level. If you don't want to spend mucho $$ here (ecotech/tunze/sicce) go with Jebao RW series -- hard to beat the combination of flow/control for the price point.

10. Have a few hundred bioballs that could be used in the sump but also have a Rena XP 3 (175 gallon) canister filter - Which should I use?
- Neither Your live rock is your filtration. Throw some carbon/gfo in a reactor or mesh bag in the sump.

That's it for now. Am I missing anything?
- Lights! Reef cannot survive without it.
- Auto topoff. This is essential to keep your sailinity stable. Tunze Osmolator is the defacto standard, but there are cheaper options. autotoppoff.com for example (can be purchased in Canada at reefsupplies.ca)

Want to have a reef down the road. Would I need an automatic dosing system or manual supplements?
- Too early to tell. Depends on yor specific parameters and what/how much coral you plan on keeping. It's quite possible that water changes are all that is needed. Kalkwasser in the topoff water if water changes can't keep up and you start to increase the number of stony corals.

Do I absolutely need an RO/DI system? Again, budget constraints, might get one in a few months, but not now. Any serious problems without it?
- Yes. Most new tanks go through algae blooms in the first year. Not using RO/DI is like giving the algae steroids. Possbily enough to make you hate it and lose interest in the hobby.

Also, what sort of maintenance schedule am I looking at? LFS told me with sump it would be 10% every two weeks, without sump 20% every week.
- Depends on bioload, and overall setup. If you have no other way of exporting nutrients (nitrate/phosphate) such as an algae turf scrubber, or macro algae refugium, you will rely on larger water changes.

As for mixing salt, how far in advance can salt be mixed? Can you mix salt for the entire month and keep it stored? And if it can be stored does it have to be heated the whole time or just before adding to the tank?
- Yes, you can store it. Room tempurature is fine. I suggest keeping it moving though (small/cheap powerhead is sufficient)

What sort of stocking options am I looking at with the protein skimmer above and maybe a 75 gallon?

Here's what I would like (will overstock for sure but here goes)

1. Hippo tang (small)
You can write "(small)" but it grows. I advise against buying a fish now for a future larger tank. Quite often the larger tank doesn't happen.
2. Yellow tang (small)
OK
3. Blonde Naso/Powder blue tang (small)
No way
4. 2 Oscellaris Clowns
OK
5. 1 goby
OK
6. Flame angel/ coral beauty
OK - careful with coral. 50/50 change that it doesn't eat/nip them
7. Wrasse
OK - depending on type.
8. Anthias
Maybe 1, should be fed often
9. 4-5 Chromis
Often will become one, especially in a small tank
10. Foxface
OK
11. Yellow longnose butterfly
OK but might need more space
12. Banded butterfly
No reef safe. Will eat coral and other inverts
13. Moorish Idol
No
14. Niger Trigger
No

Even for the tangs/butterfly/foxface that are OK in a 75g... I wouldn't put them all in there together. That is a lot of algae grazers for a smallish tank. Will likely lead to problems.


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## twobytwo

Crayon said:


> Hey Noah,
> This doesn't sound like you!!! Such attitude. Did you give out your account info to Alt?


I must be getting wise in my old age. Or I guess after a year I've finally felt confident to share opinions based on my own experiences. I must have looked at every single fish on Liveaquaria.

Lorano - I would add:
From your fish list, keep in mind what invertebrates you want and corals (if any) later down the road. Some fish will nip at corals, eat Clean Up Crew, etc...

Get A Good testing kit. API has been known for some accuracy issues, so Maybe Salifert kits which aren't too expensive. But testing kits are a must. To start you may really only need Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia and Possibly pH.

Check out some Fish stores, it's nice to know where the stores are around the city if you need something that may not be where you usually shop.

And - if you can get water in the tank by the end of this month, you'll probably be all cycled in time for the London Frag show.


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## Lorano

Does anyone know of any good marine livestock stores in Mississauga? Or any good online retailers of marine livestock and corals?

Also, many of you said that RO/DI provided long-term success. Just don't have the funds to get an RO/DI system at the moment, so is there a danger of water quality issues? Algae in the process of cycling is something I can deal with but would there be any problems with water quality even after the cycling process once fish fish and corals are in if RO water is not used? Or, with careful stocking and regular maintenance, can I maintain water quality for a few months or so, or maybe even until the end of the year, keep good water quality?

Okay, here's the revised list based on feedback for livestock:

2x Ocellaris Clowns
1-2 Anthias
1-2 Wrasses
1-2 Goby
1-2 Firefish
1 Yellow tang
1 Hippo tang
1 Foxface
1 Flame Angel/ Coral beauty
1 Yellow longnose butterfly

These will go in either a 75 or, if my budget can be stretched a bit, a 90 gallon tank. The sump will be a 30-45 gallon sump.

Can anyone give me feedback on the water change schedule? Would 10-15% every two weeks be okay given normal water parameters? And if I can purchase RO/DI from a lfs, I will try to do 5% RO/DI out of that 10-15% , but for now just assume I can only do conditioned tap water.


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## Addicted

There are tons.

Dundas/Dixie has at least four.

Canadacorals by the airport.

There is a sticky in the General Marine forum that even maps them out for you.



Lorano said:


> Does anyone know of any good marine livestock stores in Mississauga? Or any good online retailers of marine livestock and corals?


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## Lorano

Are you talking about Big Als, Discount Dragon and Aquatic Kingdom? They're all close together and around that area if I remember right.

Unfortunately Big Als is very expensive and Discount Dragon doesn't really have a large selection of marine fish. Aquatic Kingdom is fine, but are there any others?

And does Canada Corals have livestock or just corals because their website only seems to show corals.

Any online retailers that have good quality fish and reasonable shipping rates that anyone can recommend?


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## fesso clown

Your fish list is fine except a Hippo tang needs a minimum of 180 Gallons and at the very least a 5 foot tank. 
You're putting the cart in front of the horse a wee bit. 
An RODI unit is the absolute first thing you should buy.


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## CoralConnoisseur

I have never ran a salty tank without RODI, and I still must agree with fesso.

When you add your salt to the water it is also adding many elements, (calcuim, alk, etc etc) if your starting water is not RODI than you will not have a stable baseline. So consistent water will be a challenge. That's not even mentioning the chemicals like chlorine that the RO membrane will remove.

Changing to RODI later might work, but I have read of liverock that had been in tap water for an extended period continuing to leech stuff out long after the swap to RODI.

I would have to strongly suggest waiting until you have an RODI before more progression.


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## Lorano

Is this a the chlorine and other contaminants issue a problem even if the tap water is treated with something like Seachem Prime? That's what I use for my discus before changing water. I know its still not RO/DI water but as far as tap water pollutants that are harmful to live rock and fish, will the Prime help?

Does anyone here have an ro/di system they do not need or are looking to sell?

Say I get a 90 gallon tank with a 40 gallon sump. If I do a 10 gallon water change every two weeks, how much of that 10 gallons should be RO/DI? Is there a ratio for RO water to tap water or is it supposed to be just RO water only?


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## fesso clown

All RODI All the time including your Top-up water. YOu need to use water that has 0 TDS (total dissolved solids). Depending where you are tap-water can come in anywhere from 300 - 1000 TDS. When out TDS meters on our RODI units start reading 2-3 TDS we change out the filters and resign in the units. You are setting yourself up to fail miserably without an RODI unit. 
There may actually be a couple members here who will chime in and say that they don't use an RODI unit and their tanks are fine but it's going to be 1 in 100 and then I would ask them to post a picture of their tank....


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## Bullet

Hurry up and grab this

http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210690


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## Jmbret

Welcome to the club! Whether you know it or not, you've been bitten by the bug and there is NO WAY BACK! This is a good thing 
My advice for you considering the position you are in - is to go SLOW. The hardest part about having a hobby in saltwater is wanting a bigger tank, better equipment so you can keep more and more incredible animals! This being said my advice to you is to budget for the largest aquarium size you can afford. Don't rule out a 90 gallon if you can get a great deal. You will be surprised at how quickly even a toonie sized tang can grow in 6 months. The last thing you want to have to do is to be forced to upgrade everything which is very costly or a sell off livestock situation. 

This brings me to my second point. Anything you do purchase for your tank, purchase with the intention for using it on a bigger tank! Get a protein skimmer rated for a larger tank. Get heaters rated for a larger tank. Doing this will allow you to save money when you are ready to upgrade and believe me it won't be very long! 

Third, an R/O unit is a must. Not having one is like going to a hospital for surgery and the surgeon doesn't use soap when scrubbing his hands. When you have algae issues and corals start dying and you get frustrated you will realize what a big mistake you made. Doing a 100% water change from tap water to R/O water is a nightmare. Learn from our mistakes and use as close to 0 TDS water striaght from the get go.

I wouldn't waste money on a coralife skimmer. In fact, you shouldn't be heavily stocking your tank for a good 3+ months after the initial cycle! This will give you time to find a great deal on a great used skimmer. A good skimmer goes a long way!

Others have posted really good advise regarding the other equipment related questions you have, so read and re read!

Best of luck!


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## Jmbret

Lorano said:


> Is this a the chlorine and other contaminants issue a problem even if the tap water is treated with something like Seachem Prime? That's what I use for my discus before changing water. I know its still not RO/DI water but as far as tap water pollutants that are harmful to live rock and fish, will the Prime help?
> 
> Does anyone here have an ro/di system they do not need or are looking to sell?
> 
> Say I get a 90 gallon tank with a 40 gallon sump. If I do a 10 gallon water change every two weeks, how much of that 10 gallons should be RO/DI? Is there a ratio for RO water to tap water or is it supposed to be just RO water only?


100% R/O water.

Water changes are totally a reflection of your tanks ability to 'metabolize' so to speak all the things that microorganisms cant digest. It depends on how much live rock you have, the lights, the salinity, water temperature, livestock, food types, feeding amounts, skimming abilities etc etc etc. You can only guess, until you set everything up and then you will know how much water will need to be changed and how often to keep things the way YOU and your pets like it!


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## Lorano

This may be a stupid question, but since I have no experience whatsoever when it comes to this, here goes: do you need a skimmer when cycling the tank with live rock and live sand? I will have filter socks in my sump as well as some foam pads to trap debris but I won't have livestock or corals in for about a month. I ask this because the previous post said I had time to look for a good skimmer, does this mean while the tank is cycling or wait to find a skimmer then start cycling?


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## fesso clown

you do not need a skimmer while the tank is cycling.


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## Lorano

Where can I find a reef ready aquarium for a good price? Big Als in my experience tends to over price many of their items but I'm not sure about aquariums. The price for a 75 gallon reed ready tank was around $250, for a 90 gallon it was about $340 from Marineland. Anyone know whether I could get a reef ready tank for cheaper in the gta?


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## tom g

*tank*

I have been reading your posts ... u keep referring to cheap or too expensive . don't get me wrong we all love cheap but the only way u are gonna super cheap is off of someone off of kijjii whos getting rid of a tank cause of a divorce or moving .im not trying to chastise u . just if u are trying to get super cheap fish and tank equipment u must always remember u get what u pay for .
its just my opinion and if u are offended I apologize just my opinion .
cheers


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## Lorano

I can see why you'd say that. Honestly, yes, I am trying to save as much as I can, but I am not so focused on that that I am trying to always find the cheapest option. I know that'll get me into trouble down the road with quality issues. I do not mind waiting to find a good deal or spending a bit more money. I want to know, from more experienced reefers and hobbyists, whether they know which stores have better prices. I will spend the money if I have to, but if I can save by asking all of you who have probably shopped around seeing as you have been more involved in saltwater, then yes, I am going to ask for all the advice, cost saving tips and help I can get.


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## tom g

*tank*

fair enough , most the advice that has been given to u has been from the most exp reefers on the site .everyone has there favorite stores don't cheap out on fish.look into qt system u will be happy that u do it ..as for equip the for sale add has lots of deals that come up , 
good luck ...


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## Lorano

Thanks. Have another question. Haha there doesn't seem to be anything that I don't not know,even after all the hours I've spent researching. I just feel the need to hear people confirm my research just in case I've read a bad article or something.

How large a quarantine tank would you all recommend? Some websites say a 10 gallon minimum, others say 30-40 gallon and then other say something else. So what would you generally recommend? I plant to get some larger fish in time like tangs and trigger so even if I bought them at the 1-2" size, what size quarantine tank would be best? And would I need to run a filter on it? Barebottom or with a little sand and rock? Skimmer?

Also, now here is a more interesting and important topic: how should I design my sump? Honestly there's so much information out there, its a bit confusing.

I plan on using a 40-50 gallon tank that is 36" in length. How should I divide it up? I want filter socks for particle and debris collection but other than that I'm not sure what size chamber to use for the skimmer/equipment, refugium and return.

Here is what I have in mind. Might be totally off, but here goes. Take a look at the attached picture. That is the plan for now as to how I can design my sump.

After looking at it, what do you recommend? The issue in the text in that picture is the matter of where the top off reservoir should be placed. Should I include that in the sump as a separate chamber? Or should I get a separate 10 gallon or something and place it in the stand next to it in the remaining space? of the 50" stand?


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## tom g

*info*

the more reading u do the more things make sense .. it all seems confusing but first u need a plan on what u want u cant plan a sump till u have a skimmer and return pump ,and tank and decide how to plumb it ...
that is the way I would plan it ,I got my tank and stand , then decided on what I could fit under the stand then worked on there for a skimmer and return pump ... plumbing was pretty simple . lights were whatever I could afford at the time .. rocks I had from previous tank and acquired a few new pieces , and again as I mentioned before its all about patience .....slow if u cant go slow there will be mistakes , so spend your money getting test kits to start a log and track your build .if u had tonnes a cash , then your build could be up and running in a few weeks . if u are on a budget its will take time don't jump on crap equip that the price sounds right without doing a equipment review ...the most exciting part about this hobby to me is the build ..enjoy it as for quarantine tank ...it all depends on what u have room for what do u want to have room for . a 20 long or 30 gallon long is sufficient for me ,in my opinion have a read on the tank transfer method ...there is tonnes of info out there on everything and lots of people who would love to help ..
good luck


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## Lorano

So far, I'm almost certain that I'll be getting a 75 or 90 gallon reef ready tank. Stand will probably be few inches larger than the tank so say 50 inches. Which part of the sump would you say is the most important and should be the largest? Would it be a good idea to include the top off reservoir in the sump itself, divided by a baffle and not connected to the rest of the sump in any way or would you recommend a separate tank for the top of water? Was hoping to make notches or teeth on each baffle to make water flow calmer. Is this a good idea?


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## Lorano

Hi all, need some advice on a skimmer. Got a good price on a Vertex IN250 skimmer, its rated for up to 250 gallon tanks. I will be paying around $100 and trading a piece of equipment that I'm not using that's worth about $200 for it. My only concern is that this is an older model. MarneDepot says its been discontinued. It also takes 55w of energy. Should I get it or not? I mean, since I'm not using the equipment I'm trading and I'm only spending $100, is it worth it? I know vertex is a good brand and all the reviews of people who bought it seem excellent for the most part, but should I get it or wait for something else?


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## Jmbret

Everything in the right time, step by step. You don't know how long the pump has been running and the pump to replace can be just as expensive as some decent used skimmers out there. Buyer beware. Try to see the skimmer operating in saltwater if you can. See if the pump is external and you can open it up and check the impellar for damage or magnet for swelling. Don't forget if you buy it, it has to fit in your sump, which you don't have yet. You need to measure it to make sure it will fit both length, width and hight.

Google sump designs and read for a week straight. Evaluate which designs appeal to you and why. There are so many different setups most of which are great and most all of them work. Sump design is challenging but also really fun and exciting so don't rush through it! Enjoy the process 

Don't buy a new tank if you don't have to. If you wait until boxing day big als you can get great deals on tanks. In the meantime you can research and collect used equipment as it pops up. Or as previously mentioned find someone getting a divorce or moving and pickup their entire system. You can spend $300-$500 and get a great 75 or 90 setup with lots of the guess work already done for you!

J


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## Lorano

I just got my skimmer, but its too tall for the type of stand I want. I would love to use it, its really powerful and would let me heavily stock my tank without any problems but I can't store it under my tank in the sump. I was initially planning to build a DIY stand that was tall so increase viewing but have now decided against it. So now I have a skimmer that I do not want. If anyone wants it, let me know. Its a Vertex IN 250. Probably worth anywhere from $550- $800 new. Asking $350 or best offer. Comes with the pump and everything needed to work.


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## tom g

*skimmer*

that is where the planning and patience comes into play ..u got a great skimmer , I assume u traded a piece of equipment for it which is not a bad way to get rid of equipment ...but now u are stuck with it till u can find someone who needs one ..this is how we get a basement full of equipment ..
tall stands are nice , mine is 35 in tall and allows me to stand and view my tank with out any bending over ..I have a reef ready 90...my vertex 100-in is what is in my stand and I am using a 30 gallon tall tank as a sump ..no issues at all ...u really need to get a plan togeather and go slow ...
good luck


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## tom g

*thread*

here is someone selling a 90 gallon .. go chk it out ..price is right ...

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210586


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## Addicted

I agree with Tom. A tall stand is nice.

I built mine at 41 inches. Amazing viewing height, and tons of space underneath.


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## Lorano

Just found out that you need both the Marineland tank and stand to have the warranty be in place.


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## Lorano

Does anyone know which store offers the best prices for reef ready tanks in the gta? Big Als prices are $240-250 for 75 gallon and $340 for 90 gallon reef ready tanks. Big Als is the only store that I personally know of with the larger aquarium selections and reef ready options. Petsmart stops at normal 75 gallon tanks. Are there any others? My knowledge of aquarium stores is very limited so I'd appreciate any advice. Also looking to get a stand so a store that sells both would be great.


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## fesso clown

Miracles. Here's their price list. For standard sizes the prices are pretty good. 
http://www.miraclesaquariums.com/Miracles_Aquariums_Prices_2012.pdf

Also look at 
Reef Boutique 
NAFB

Really though you should just watch the classifieds and get a deal...


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## Lorano

Getting a used tank is cheaper, but any problems with one means a huge floor repair cost for water damage and no coverage for tank etc. I need a new tank. I will spend money to get warranty security.


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## Addicted

Just keep in mind, the warranty they give you only covers the actual tank. If it breaks, you'll still be on the hook for your floors. Marineland just reimburse you for the cost of the tank itself (and in some cases, you may have to really fight to get it).


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## fury165

Addicted said:


> Just keep in mind, the warranty they give you only covers the actual tank. If it breaks, you'll still be on the hook for your floors. Marineland just reimburse you for the cost of the tank itself (and in some cases, you may have to really fight to get it).


And it must be installed to their specs, so read carefully


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## fesso clown

Lorano said:


> Getting a used tank is cheaper, but any problems with one means a huge floor repair cost for water damage and no coverage for tank etc. I need a new tank. I will spend money to get warranty security.


good luck with that. best you could do is actual insurance coverage, there is not a single aquarium manufacturer that will cover anything other then the tank.

EDIT: please correct me if I am wrong. I'd love to have that warranty!

I had a custom tank built by Miracles they won't cover what's inside the tank let alone what's outside if there's a problem and they are pretty much one of the best aquarium companies out there.


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## Lilphil26

Canada corals can get seapora reef ready shallow tanks for a decent price if i recall. Like so many people have said already, slow and steady wins the race. Lots of research and dont skimp on equipment. I cheaped out on everything when i had my 50 gallon ten years ago. Was a royal pain in the ass to the point i just totally lost interest. Sorry if i missed it but do you have an rodi kit yet? I bought one used here and it works awesome. Definitely do not use tap water for a salt tank. Good luck with your build.


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## Lorano

fesso clown said:


> good luck with that. best you could do is actual insurance coverage, there is not a single aquarium manufacturer that will cover anything other then the tank.
> 
> EDIT: please correct me if I am wrong. I'd love to have that warranty!
> 
> I had a custom tank built by Miracles they won't cover what's inside the tank let alone what's outside if there's a problem and they are pretty much one of the best aquarium companies out there.


I might be wrong but doesn't Marineland have a limited lifetime warranty? I read online from a few (very few, but they were there) that fought to have the damages to their aquarium an even home covered and it sounded like they almost always got the tank replaced and even sometimes, after getting home insurance and lawyers involved, maybe even got home repairs covered up to a certain point. By no means am I sure of this but if there's even a chance and that means little more money for some additional peace of mind, I'll take it.


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## Lorano

Also, what do you all recommend for a stand? Currently looking at Marineland Majesty or as Big Als calls it, Monarch stand (they said only difference is that cabinet doors have a trim now). Or would you recommend a metal tube stand? I can make a DIY wooden shell to make it look like a wooden stand around it later. Which would be safer?


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## creature55

First of all, welcome to the dark side! Looks like you are on the right track with things  I think you're making a great choice by going bigger on a tank...I had to learn that one the hard way and am paying for it now. I figured a nano would be easier to manage for a newby, but the small water volume and lack of sump make keeping stable parameters very very difficult. Thus...I'm currently in the process of upsizing my reef lol.

As for buying the tank/stand, I'd say the marginal benefits of buying new are completely outweighed by the cost. I've bought many many used tanks on kijiji/forums over the years and not once have I had one leak. I would take all the money you save by buying a used system (which will be a lot) and invest it in good hardware (skimmer, light, etc). Take it from me, a good skimmer can save you A LOT of time/salt/money by reducing the number and amount of water changes you need to do. Also, unlike some people who enjoy the element of "figuring out the tank", I like it to be already figured out for me. 

As for RO/DI, my opinion differs slightly from the other answers. For a tank with corals, RO/DI is absolute must. For FOWLR, I have actually had pretty good success using tap water treated with Prime. However, I can only attest to having kept these fish in tapwater: powder blue tang, pearlscale butterfly, pakistan butterfly, juvenile emperor angel, and ocellaris clowns. I also currently have my octopus in tapwater (though that was a gradual transition from RO/DI).

Good luck!


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## Lorano

Is anyone here interested in trading their protein skimmer for mine? I have a Vertex IN250 skimmer. Would love to keep it, its a really good skimmer, and spent quite a bit to get it, but its a bit too tall for my stand. Its about 30" tall. Does any here have a skimmer that's around 20" or so who has a tall stand that they could fit my skimmer in? If you want to trade, let me know, it'd really help me out. I don't mind if its not the same gallon capacity, just need something that's reasonably good quality and shorter than mine so that I can put in under my stand in my sump.


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## Lorano

Just contacted Marineland. Apparently their warranty does cover tank and stand defects and replacement. Damages to floor and housing they said was subject to evaluation and insurance. Only rule is that both tank and stand have to be from Marineland and they have to not have been modified in any way. So no drilling, no supports for stand, nothing. Its good in a way since you get a free replacement and you can even fight for home repairs if anything happens. Also according to Big Als this warranty is for 20 years so the coverage period is good compared to some other manufacturers and custom aquarium companies which give warranties that cover you for 1-5 years or so.


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## Lorano

Just visited my 3 favorite aquarium stores near me, Big Als, Discount Dragon and Aquatic Kingdom. So many beautiful fish! Can't wait to get my tank going. I know patience is required but oh man this is so hard. I'm trying to think of every conceivable way to set up a small 10 gallon tank with some clown fish or something while getting my 75/90 gallon up and running just to deal with the constant desire to have my first saltwater fish. I know nano tanks, especially for a beginner like me might be a disaster waiting to happen but its so hard to just wait around collecting equipment and building things u. I'm not going to do it though. Oh well, I'm just going to have to hold myself back for a month or so.


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## altcharacter

When you're ready swing by my place and I'll set you up with your first frags.


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## Lorano

Thanks. What your prices? Or are they free lol


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## Lorano

Just had another question. This one might get me in trouble but here goes. Does anyone recommend not using a sump? If I go without a sump, I can get a hang on back skimmer for the tank. What funtion does the sump provide apart from hiding equipment? Does the refugium lower the water changes necessary or keep nitrates down? There are a lot of people online who say they have 90+ gallon tanks that they keep without sumps, just weekly water changes. If I was to go with no sump, how much of my water would I have to change every week? Or wouls it be two weeks? Major pros and cons or sump and no sump? Please help me decide!


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## Addicted

Of course you can be successful without a sump... in fact, you can find find examples of people that have been successful going sumpless and skimmerless. 

That said, I wouldn't do it. 

One of the greatest things about saltwater is the beauty. The fish/coral/inverts are all amazing to look at. Also the natural beauty of the environment. I would hate to clutter it up with a bunch of heaters, hob skimmer, ato float switches, probes, etc. 

Having a sump also gives you so much more flexibility with equipment choices, media, nutrient export, etc.

I've had a skimmer overflow before... but it was in my sump so it did no harm. If it was hanging on the back of my tank my floor would have been very wet.

If you are planning on a reef, and not just a fish tank, do it right and use a sump. You seem to want to do a lot of research, which is great. But you have been given all the right answers and don't seem to want to follow. Not sure if you are just scared or what. Take a deep breath. Make a to do list and go for it.

If you are worried about warranty, don't buy a Marineland tank. Buy a miracles tank. They will make it and drill the holes for you, and it will still be under warranty.

Oh, and good choice about not getting that small tank while building the big one. You would be unpleasantly surprised how much money you could sink into a nano tank... possibly enough to derail your main plan for a while.


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## Lorano

Honestly, I don't mind having the equipment show on my tank for a while. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with getting the plumbing all all that done since its my first time and all which is why I asked whether a hang on skimmer and no sump would be okay. Is there a special function a sump provides to maintain water quality?

Also, how live rock do you all recommend for a 90 gallon tank?

Also, I tried to go get a Miracles tank and stand, but they're warranty only seems to cover a period of 5 years when I looked it up. Also, Marineland said they cover tank and stand replacement as well as home damages to a certain extent if you get insurance involved and fight for it.


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## tom g

*equipment*

so what equipment do u have .....so far ... what have u bought ...
honestly if u are worrying about disasters and whos gonan be at fault u are going about it all wrong .. there is no one out there that will cover or warranty anything
let me reword this they will most likely cover a replacement of a tank ,but have never heard of anything past that ...
, get passed that ... just the way it is .. u want no disasters u have to come up with a game plan and tackle it step by step ,u are over thinking it too much ...

what do u want .....
what equipment do u have 
what do u want to achieve ..

we are all trying to help u here but u keep going back and forth so give us a plan here and lets see if we can get u started ....


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## Addicted

Lorano said:


> Marineland said they cover tank and stand replacement as well as home damages to a certain extent if you get insurance involved and fight for it.


Not sure you understood them correctly. It's the insurance company that would cover house damage. Not Marineland. Same with any tank builder.


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## Syed

Lorano said:


> Just had another question. This one might get me in trouble but here goes. Does anyone recommend not using a sump? If I go without a sump, I can get a hang on back skimmer for the tank. What funtion does the sump provide apart from hiding equipment? Does the refugium lower the water changes necessary or keep nitrates down? There are a lot of people online who say they have 90+ gallon tanks that they keep without sumps, just weekly water changes. If I was to go with no sump, how much of my water would I have to change every week? Or wouls it be two weeks? Major pros and cons or sump and no sump? Please help me decide!


I use the Tunze Comline DOC Protein Skimmer 9004 on my 90 gallon sumpless tank.

It's rated for smaller tanks than mine but it skims amazing. It's placed inside the tank as so:



It's on the left of the pic.

It hasn't overflowed on me ever. There is no risk of any water getting on the floor cause it's inside the tank. Also there models rated for higher gallons and if you ever decide on a sump it can be used in one as well like a regular skimmer.


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## Lorano

Sorry about any confusion. The reason I seem to be going back and forth is because I want to cover as much much as I can in case I do have leak or my tank breaks and floods my floor. I know there isn't a guarantee it will or will not happen, just wanted to know that a tank I buy will have me covered in case it does happen.

Also, as far as my plan for now is, here it is:

- 90 gallon reef ready tank and monarch stand from marineland
- 55-75 gallon sump
- Vertex IN250 protein skimmer
- Quiet One 4000 pump (990 gph)
- Eheim Jager 300w heater
- 2 Powerheads (haven't decide what)
- Aquatic Life 4 t5 ho lights with night led
- 60lbs live sand/ crushed coral
- 70 lbs live rock

Am I missing anything? Please give feedback on what works and what doesn't.


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## tom g

*equipment*

well your plan looks good other then your skimmer which u relize is too big for your stand ... measure the stand on the inside and see what u can fit in there

theres your plan work on that ... start by getting the tank and stand 
the rest comes easy ...


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## Lorano

I can anyone post pics of their tanks and sump setups? Would like to see how the veterans do things. Also, would really appreciate it if someone would post some pics of their sump plumbing. Some videos on youtube show people having suspensions or supports for their plumbing with zip ties, wires or suspensions attached to top of stand. Is this necessary?


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## fesso clown

IMO + IME not having a sump sucks... never again! 
PLUMBING PORN
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1663066
great resource for all kinds of reef stuff, here is the sump section:
http://www.melevsreef.com/taxonomy/term/142

If that's not enough then here ya go:
http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=show+off+your+sumps+reef+central+


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## Jiinx

I came into saltwater from a heavy freshwater background. I did not want to spend the money and change my equipment or my freshwater state of mind to a sump and skimmer etc way of things. 

I had a beautiful 79 G starphire tank that I used for planted. I cleaned it up. My husband was against drilling or sumps because he did not want water damage on the floor. Then we met Greg and he walked us through his set up. 

I think, maybe, you could try visiting a member or a store and see the plumbing and value of doing it with a sump. Mind you, I did it with a canister (with Eheim bioballs), and an Aquaclear 110, and a HOB skimmer. It worked. Greg came over once and said, you know for a sumpless tank he was really impressed. I only had softies though and my water was "dirty" and I had a bit of aiptasia...but it was fine and it worked.

Fast forward a couple years later and I have a sump and reactors and the whole nineyards. My water is pristine and I can keep more "sensitive" corals. The maintenance is way easier than with all the extra equipment hanging off it. My skimmer is huge and works well. My reactors help keep algae away and I don't have aiptasia. 

I feed quite heavy bc I have seahorses and a borb anthia and other fish that like to eat frequently. 

Everything just works in harmony and you get a display tank without the extra hardware. That way you can just focus on your corals. At the end of the day, you want what's best for your fish and corals, right? So no matter which way you do it, you'll select the corals and fish that go best with the set up you want 

Good luck! You'll learn a lot as you journey through saltwater.

sarah


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## fury165

I've been reading your thread and the responses so far. I think it would be in your own best interest to slow down and start back at square one - research. 

You have been given lots of sage advice from some of the most experienced reefers on this site. A lot of it must be overwhelming to you, but you need to sit down and do your own research to arrive at a proper plan of action that suits your particular needs. Otherwise you will fail terribly ..sorry but that's the facts.


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## Lorano

I understand that, believe me. Right now, every reason I came up with for the past year or so for not getting into saltwater is just coming right back up. Cost, learning curve, time needed for maintenance, damage to house if tank breaks from all the live rock and weight etc. The list is endless. I'm not sure if anyone thinks I'm not listening to your advice because I am trust me. I'm almost literally hanging on to every bit of advice and help I'm being given, can't thank everyone enough. As far as research, I've spent the past 6 months or so getting together a plan as far as what I can afford, what I can manage with my schedule and mostly just visiting countless sites and watching dozens or more of youtube videos about tanks from 10-200+ gallons, sumps, lights, reactors, livestock risks, setup instructions etc. So yeah, trust me, I've done quite a bit of research, nowhere near enough to put down my fears so I'm always doing more, but I'm getting there gradually. In the meanwhile, the questions I'm asking here may make it seem like I haven't done research, but I have believe me. I'm just asking questions to which I know the most basic answers to have the answers confirmed by all of you and to learn anything extra I might have missed. Anyhow, again, thanks so much to everyone who has helped me so far, I really appreciate your help and feedback. Bear with me for a while, I still have a lot to learn and a lot to ask!


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## fesso clown

check this out, every week a new video following the progression of setting up a big tank. They are on week 30 of 52. Great series and covers EVERYTHING! 
I suggest watching it from the beginning.... week 1
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/52-weeks.html


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## CoralConnoisseur

I think visiting people and checking out systems is a very good idea. I learned a lot from looking at how others did things. Flavio at advanced reef (now closed) had a 120 that I checked out throughly, also "sweet ride" here on the forum showed me his setup. Things seemed much easier once seen in person.

I am out in milton and run a 90 with a sump in the stand, also run a frag tank as a separate system with the sump in a different room. The plumbing goes threw the wall, it's super easy.

PM if you want to come poke around a bit. If I am to far I am sure many members close to you would welcome you for a tour. Or just look at the smaller stand alone setups at the stores. 8 foot long frag tanks with giant 100+ gallon sump are a little different than seeing someone's reef tank in action.


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## cica

A few years ago I started a 50g salt tank with no sump, just a hang on filter. When the cycling finished, After 3 weeks I got a hob skimmer. After 6 weeks I got a sump, ditched the filter and hob skimmer. After 5 month I upgrated to a 125 g tank, with sump, better skimmer, gfo and carbon reactors. I still have this setup.
Spent a lots of money, trying to cheap out, ended up loosing money on all these "cheap" stuff.
My tank is in the living room, cant afford a flood from an hob skimmer. My tank is not drilled, I have hob overflow. Not the best thing but I made the sump that if the syphon breaks, the tank can handle the excess of water. If the return pump failes, the sump can handle the excess water. Too much hassle, I wish I had the tank drilled before I filled it up, now it's too late.
You buy a new tank or used, you still have the chance that the tank fails and have a flood. And the flood could cost you a lot.
Just my storry.


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## Bullet

cica said:


> A few years ago I started a 50g salt tank with no sump, just a hang on filter. When the cycling finished, After 3 weeks I got a hob skimmer. After 6 weeks I got a sump, ditched the filter and hob skimmer. After 5 month I upgrated to a 125 g tank, with sump, better skimmer, gfo and carbon reactors. I still have this setup.
> Spent a lots of money, trying to cheap out, ended up loosing money on all these "cheap" stuff.
> My tank is in the living room, cant afford a flood from an hob skimmer. My tank is not drilled, I have hob overflow. Not the best thing but I made the sump that if the syphon breaks, the tank can handle the excess of water. If the return pump failes, the sump can handle the excess water. Too much hassle, I wish I had the tank drilled before I filled it up, now it's too late.
> You buy a new tank or used, you still have the chance that the tank fails and have a flood. And the flood could cost you a lot.
> Just my storry.


I've been reading this thread but held off posting anything yet but when I see Joe offering his experiences, I felt that it was necessary for me to speak up 
SW / Reef requires tons of research and a clear focus. 
I always wondered why Sig used to build up, sell off and then start up so many tanks but since I have started 4 SW tanks in the last 2 years of various sizes, I can appreciate what he was trying to do 
With every set up, you gain more insights and increase your knowledge and understanding. 
Gather all the info that you can and then jump in. Buy used. Cut once and measure twice as they say and ask a ton of questions (ok you've got that covered ; ) 
This gentleman (forum name cica) knows what he is talking about - I have seen his tank and had the privilege of visiting his home 
His main tank is stable, beautiful and completely balanced - if he offers any advice, I would pay attention. It will save you tons of trouble, expense and aggravation later on ...


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## fury165

Well I'm glad you HAVE done the research, sorry if I came across as condecending - it wasn't my intent. We all want to see you succeed of course, the hobby has lots of room for a happy reefer who can execute the dream tank successfully. Too many folks think there is a simple formula to it all, the experienced ones know it really isn't and that's why we say nice and slow. 



Lorano said:


> I understand that, believe me. Right now, every reason I came up with for the past year or so for not getting into saltwater is just coming right back up. Cost, learning curve, time needed for maintenance, damage to house if tank breaks from all the live rock and weight etc. The list is endless. I'm not sure if anyone thinks I'm not listening to your advice because I am trust me. I'm almost literally hanging on to every bit of advice and help I'm being given, can't thank everyone enough. As far as research, I've spent the past 6 months or so getting together a plan as far as what I can afford, what I can manage with my schedule and mostly just visiting countless sites and watching dozens or more of youtube videos about tanks from 10-200+ gallons, sumps, lights, reactors, livestock risks, setup instructions etc. So yeah, trust me, I've done quite a bit of research, nowhere near enough to put down my fears so I'm always doing more, but I'm getting there gradually. In the meanwhile, the questions I'm asking here may make it seem like I haven't done research, but I have believe me. I'm just asking questions to which I know the most basic answers to have the answers confirmed by all of you and to learn anything extra I might have missed. Anyhow, again, thanks so much to everyone who has helped me so far, I really appreciate your help and feedback. Bear with me for a while, I still have a lot to learn and a lot to ask!


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## Lorano

Hey all, had another question. I researched dangers of a power outage and sump overflow which appears to be solvable by making sure sump is big enough to accommodate water level difference between drain and water volume until water drops below drain entrance level. Same thing for back flow from return by placing return just below water surface to minimize amount of water that might be sent back down.

The only problem I haven't been able to solve is, what about if, while the power is on, the drain suddenly got blocked or lessened in flow and the return pump kept pumping out a large volume of water greater than than the drain? Would the tank overflow? Can this be solved with a float switch? If a float switch can be used to measure a drop in water level, can it also be used to measure arise above required water levels? Is there a float switch that can do both or do there have to be two float switches?


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## twobytwo

You can do that with a float switch to cut the circuit to your pump, but you would also likely need to cut power to your skimmer as well. I can do this with my Apex. Look into aquarium controllers (Neptune Apex being the most popular). If you want maximum security, you should have a controller. You could DIY something but at the end of the day, the controller will give you additional functionality for other things as well.


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## Lorano

I'm really bad with electric stuff. By circuit do you mean the power outlet or the power strip that is connected to the outlet?


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## twobytwo

Lorano said:


> I'm really bad with electric stuff. By circuit do you mean the power outlet or the power strip that is connected to the outlet?


An electrical circuit. like in 4th grade where you have a battery connected to a lightbulb with wire. Remove part of the circuit and the lightbulb goes out. So you have your pump and you have a float switch that cuts the circuit if it goes above a certain level

with a controller, Basically... You have a power bar with a computer attached. the controller lets you have probes you can monitor (ex. temp, pH, salinity) and be able to set programs (Turn my heater on when tank is 78, turn it off at 79 - so you don't worry about a heater failing ON and get consistent temperatures in the tank.... or it could send you an email if temp gets below 76, so you know theres a problem).

So yes... I can tell my controller that if it sees a switch trip (my float switch in my overflow going above a certain level), the program tells the outlet my pump is attached to, to shut down for a few minutes. I would need my skimmer to shut down as well because it will overflow if the level in my sump raises.


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## cica

cica said:


> ........ I made the sump that if the syphon breaks, the tank can handle the excess of water. If the return pump failes, the sump can handle the excess water.........


The size of the return pump section in my sump is as big (by volume) that all the water from there can fit in my display. Even if the syphon breaks, my DT will not overflow.


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## fesso clown

also most of us run with an emergency drain (Herbie overflow) or sometimes 2 (Bean Animal overflow). I would be very uncomfortable running a tank without an emergency drain although many do...


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## Lorano

Two questions:

1. How would you install an emergency overflow on a tank that comes pre-drilled like a corner flo tank with internal overflow from Marineland? Or can that only be done by drilling the tank yourself?

2. Some you tube videos show people using supports or cables that allow the pipes to be supported/hung on them. a. Why do this? b. How can I do this, what do I need? Can I find them at a local hardware store?


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## Lorano

Some videos on youtube show people adding suspensions or supports for their pvc pipes. Is this to prevent any downward weight from affection pipe stability or some other reason? Is it really necessary?


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## Addicted

Yes, you should support your pipes. When doing things in and around your sump, it's inevitable that you will bump the plumbing. You don't want that to Crack the back of your tank where the bulkheads meet the glass. 

It's very easy and inexpensive to support the plumbing. Lowe's has a good selection. I will take a pic of what I used.


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## Addicted

Threaded Rod ($1.49 for 12")
The Hillman Group 3/8-in-16 Zinc-Plated Steel Standard (SAE) Fully Coarse Threaded Rod 
https://www.lowes.ca/threaded-rod/t...d-sae-fully-coarse-threaded-rod_g2385848.html

split ring hangar ($2.99 each - less if smaller diameter pipe than mine)
American Valve AV30 Galvanized Split Ring Hanger 
https://www.lowes.ca/pipe-support-c...30-galvanized-split-ring-hanger_g1194612.html

Flange ($1.99 each)
American Valve AV301689 3/8-in Ceiling Hanger Flange
https://www.lowes.ca/pipe-support-c...689-38-in-ceiling-hanger-flange_g1203059.html

As you can see, very inexpensive -- well worth the cost.


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## zk4444

Lorano said:


> I understand that, believe me. Right now, every reason I came up with for the past year or so for not getting into saltwater is just coming right back up. Cost, learning curve, time needed for maintenance, damage to house if tank breaks from all the live rock and weight etc. The list is endless. I'm not sure if anyone thinks I'm not listening to your advice because I am trust me. I'm almost literally hanging on to every bit of advice and help I'm being given, can't thank everyone enough. As far as research, I've spent the past 6 months or so getting together a plan as far as what I can afford, what I can manage with my schedule and mostly just visiting countless sites and watching dozens or more of youtube videos about tanks from 10-200+ gallons, sumps, lights, reactors, livestock risks, setup instructions etc. So yeah, trust me, I've done quite a bit of research, nowhere near enough to put down my fears so I'm always doing more, but I'm getting there gradually. In the meanwhile, the questions I'm asking here may make it seem like I haven't done research, but I have believe me. I'm just asking questions to which I know the most basic answers to have the answers confirmed by all of you and to learn anything extra I might have missed. Anyhow, again, thanks so much to everyone who has helped me so far, I really appreciate your help and feedback. Bear with me for a while, I still have a lot to learn and a lot to ask!


The whole process may seem overwhelming but everything comes together when approached slowly.

I learned valuable tips and tricks along the way from many helpful reefers here and I'm still learning to this day. You will make mistakes along the way and pretty much that's how you learn from this hobby especially if you've just started out.

I started with a 10g nano reef then moved up larger to a 41g afterwards. My current tank today is a 75g corner-flo.

Check my build threads below and hope you can pickup a tip or two can apply it to your own build and avoid some of the mistakes I made . Most importantly have fun and good luck 

Nano/41g osaka:
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37384

Current build:
http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147866

Hope this helps. cheers.

-ZK


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## Addicted

How's this coming along?

I see you're selling a lot of equipment, including some massive skimmers.

Very curious...


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## Lorano

Collecting equipment and entering final planning stages. Taking everyone's advice and going slow. Planning everything out. Will be buying the tank and stand in the next week or so. Have a large skimmer but its a little overkill for the size of tank I'll be getting so if I can sell it for a good price, I will, will help fund the build. Would like to keep it for any tank upgrades in the future but one thing at a time. This setup first.


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## c31979839

Addicted said:


> How's this coming along?
> 
> I see you're selling a lot of equipment, including some massive skimmers.
> 
> Very curious...


It looks like he is now selling a bunch of his live rock, skimmers, lights.

How's the setup coming along? I hope you're just selling this stuff off so that you buy a reeeally large tank!


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## Lorano

Yep, trying to go bigger than a 90 gallon. Probably going to keep the skimmer. but everything else is going to go.


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## Lorano

Just got the tank. 150 reef ready by Marineland 6ft long by 18" wide and 27" tall. Exploring stand options now. Does anyone have any experience with the metal stands Big Als sells? Think they're made by a company called Hamilton Manufacturing that makes most or all of the metal stands for Big Als. Has anyone had any experience with these metal stands from Big Als or ordering a custom metal stand from the company through Big Als? The metal stand will give me a lot of room to work with sump compared to a wood stand. If anyone has gotten a custom metal stand made by this company, can you please share a price? Also, is there a danger of my floors getting damaged with a stand that has four legs and a small area for weight distribution? Can the Big Al's metal stands support a 150 gallon tank, live rock etc.? I know they're built specifically for aquarium since they're sold at Big Al's but the metal looks so thin, I'm a bit concerned about whether it will hold up. Any feedback on experience with these stands would help. Also, would anyone recommend going with the Monarch/Majesty (same series, old name) wood stands compared to a metal stand in terms of strength and safety for that type of weight? Thanks.


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## Lorano

Nobody? Can anyone please respond to previous post please? Would really appreciate some advice or past experiences regarding these metal stands.


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## altcharacter

Saltwater is much heavier than freshwater.

Most people either make their own stands or get them made.

Your choice if you want to buy a BA's stand, but I wouldn't....

Mine is 2" steel tube with angle iron that was built to withstand the weight.


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## Lorano

How much does it cost to have a stand made to withstand the weight of a saltwater tank (so with live rock, sand etc.)? Do you mind sharing the dimensions of your stand and how much it cost? Also maybe add a picture so that I can get an idea of what you got for the amount you paid?


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## Lilphil26

Lorano are you handy at all? You could make a stand relatively easily that would withstand the weight. For a large tank I would use either 4x4's for the frame or doubled up 2x4's and 3/4 inch plywood for the top and sides. You could use lighter duty ply for the sides but you need to buy it by the 4x8 foot sheet anyways so.....You would also need to put braces under the top of the stand(think of how a plywood subfloor is in your house with the joists running across to add support)You can finish it off with stain, veneer, or cedar wainscotting(spelling is probably wrong). Metal is strong but bulk material isn't cheap and once its welded together, its in one piece and much more difficult to transport. Wood is extremely easy to customize and there are tons of ideas on youtube. Im sure with a case of beer along with materials supplied you could maybe even talk a fellow member into helping you build one!!


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## Lorano

Believe me, I'd like to, but I want to keep the warranty on my tank. If I build a stand myself, the tank manufacturer automatically voids my tank warranty. I need to have a company make a stand for me and even then send the plans to Marineland for them to approve it to keep the warranty valid. The stands sold at Big Als don't look too strong except for the Monterey series which costs upwards of $1500 for the tank size I have.

Does anyone have any experience getting a custom metal stand built for them? Can you post pics an maybe a rough price so that I could get a idea of what I can expect in terms of cost and quality? Worst case, I'll have to either get Majesty stand from Big Als or one of their metal tube stands (the metal stands seem to use thinner metal tubing than custom stands I've seen online but at least they're welded, the wood stands at Big Als seem to be mainly held up by glue or something. At least I think so since I didn't see any nails but I could be wrong or have missed the nails since I have zero woodworking experience)


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## Lilphil26

If you built a custom metal stand the manufacturers warranty would be void as well. One thing you should research, is how many times tanks fail, how many times its related to stand construction, how much of a pain in the butt it was trying to get money from the insurance company(this will be extremely difficult, as they are usually difficult to deal with)in the event of a failure. Me personally, I would be more concerned of a possible sump overflow or some other way of water exiting the aquarium rather than tank failure. I think buying a high end system from someone such as miracles reduces the chances of tank failure. On my 50 gallon I had a pvc fitting come loose that wasn't properly glued together make a huge mess of my floor. Wasn't a tank failure but can still make a huge mess and the tank manufacturer will be totally off of the liability train.


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## Windowlicka

Lol! Screw the mfr's warranty! It's not worth the paper it's written on. Make sure your home insurer covers you instead. 

(From personal experience, RBC Home Insurance are a home-owning aquarist's friend)


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## Lorano

Apparently, getting insurance involved if a tank fails, as long as the stand was approved by the tank manufacturer, is the same regardless of whether the stand is custom or store bought. Owners just have to send the stand plans to marine land and if they approve if, the tank warranty will stay in place. My problem is price and durability. Custom wood stands are really expensive so looking into steel. Would prefer steel for strength and space under the tank for sump and maintenance.


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## Lilphil26

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier but it seem like the issue of a catastrophic tank failure is holding you back. Have you had a major tank issue previously? Like I mentioned before, there are so many things other than tank failure that can lead to a boat load of water ending up where it shouldnt be. If you end up going with metal, try getting the supplies yourself. I live near peterborough and have a place called ashburnham metal up here that sells steel including steel tubing and plate steel. Buying through a place like this and bringing to a welding/fabrication shop should be cheaper than just asking the welder to make you the stand as they will most likely mark up the price of materials. Depending on your budget you could always get wild and get it made of 304 stainless and have it polished! Saltwater and regular steel don't play well together. That being said, 2 inch square steel tubing would take a long time to rust to the point of failure even with oxidation accelerated by saltwater. Cosmetically though, I assume you would notice rust soon after getting water on the stand. Im sure there are lots of guys here that had made custom stands made of steel that can chime in.


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## Lorano

No, never had any tank leaks before, just never used a steel stand before so a bit nervous about their ability to hold up about 2500lbs of weight.

I have almost decided though. Right now thinking of going with the Big Als 1.5" metal tubing stand. Will the 1.5" tubing be strong enough? The metal stand for the 180 gallon uses 2" tubing but since my tank is a 150 gallon, that stand uses only 1.5". Anyone here with any experience with metal stands? Would this stand hold up? Big Als guarantees that it does but if anyone can confirm, my choice will almost definitely be made.


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## Lilphil26

Well I think that if bigals or marineland sells a tank and recommends a certain stand and that marineland will offer a tank warranty if used with that specific stand, I would assume they wouldn't set themselves up for failure. But I would wait until some of the more senior reefers here chime in. I think Alt already mentioned to stay away from the bigals stand. I forgot to ask, are you putting this on a concrete floor?? I would be weary about putting close to 2000lbs on a plywood floor. Things to remember. Tank weight. Stand weight. Another tank for the sump. Rocks, sand, all equipment as well as the important thing, water. Freshwater weighs roughly 10 pounds per gallon. Think of it like money when buying reef supplies. Doesn't take long to add up!!!!!


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## Lorano

I want to stay away from them too but to keep my tank warranty I need to buy a stand from an aquarium retailer. Do you or anyone else have any companies you know about that can build a metal stand for a reasonable price? Or have any experience with the Big Als metal stands?


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## Lilphil26

This is a stupid question, but I have read in a few places that you are concerned with cost as I think most of us are. But at the same time I see you went from a good size tank(90gallon) up to a 150 gallon? The costs of course are going to rise with tank size. Lighting, rodi water usage, salt, hydro, etc. I don't mean this to sound offensive so please don't take it as such, but have you sat down to figure it all out on paper? The cost I mean. I have a 25 gallon all in one tank and I bet I have over 1500 in that with hardly any livestock in it. It was more than I had really thought of myself spending.


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## Lorano

Not at all, I know I've been pretty focused on pricing as everyone can see by my posts. I did factor in costs. Fish and corals are not part of this as I have no problem building up livestock and coral bit by bit as most people do. My cost issues right now have to do with the stand. I have almost all the necessary equipment. Only things left to buy are the stand, sump and plumbing for it. The initial plan was to get a Majesty or Monarch (as it is now called) wood stand from Marineland but I took a look at them and found no nails whatsoever that holds it together (no woodworking or building experience so my untrained eyes might have missed them) so I'm now thinking of going with a metal stand, which is what I'm hoping everyone else here will be able to help me with in terms of a metal stands pros compared to a wood stand like strength, durability etc.

I just need someone with a metal stand and experience with metal stand to let me know whether 1.5" steel tubing is strong enough to hold a 150 gallon saltwater tank and everything inside it. Doesn't have to be a Big Als stand (although that would be exactly what I'm looking for) but just have the same thickness of metal (1.5" metal/steel tubing) used in the stand construction. If anyone can let me know whether that kind of stand will hold up, or refer me to a company that builds metal stands, that wold be great.


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## Lilphil26

I think the best advice I can give you right now is slow down, take your time, do a ton of reading, do some more reading, and then buy your equipment. Impulse buying never ends well, and having to sell equipment to fund other things almost always ends up in you losing money in the process. Research, buy your equipment once, and be done with it. Buying cheap equipment now only to realize you arent happy with it down the road means buying things twice. I learned this the hard way when I had my 50 gallon tank. If you really like the wooden stand from bigals, buy it and be happy with it! You wont have to replace it any time soon so the 1500 it cost you is calculated over the long term. 1500 bucks over 5 years isn't a lot of money. Buying a larger tank and suitable equipment now will save you from upgrading down the road which in turn will save you money in the long run. And don't worry, you are going to drop more than 1500 bucks into the tank in the near future anyways!!!! You just dont know it yet  Good luck and have fun!

In regards to you inquiring about no nails in the wooden stand, a glued joint is much stronger than virgin wood so don't worry if you don't see any screws or nails. If you dont know what I mean, take two popsicle sticks and glue them together with good wood glue. Let it harden as per the directions. I then challenge you to break that glue joint! 99 percent of the time it will break the wood right beside the glue joint.


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## Lorano

Thank you again for your advice. With regard to getting good equipment, I believe I have. My skimmer is rated for about 400 gallons and my tank comes with overflows so I can use a sump. My lights for now are not the best but they'll do for some beginner corals I'm guessing since its 8 t5's HO's. Only stuff left to buy as I said before are the stand, sump and plumbing for the sump. Believe me, every decision I've made this far, every piece of equipment I have, I selected after a lot of though in terms of what I can afford and what will give me long term success after I get my tank set up.

My issue right now is the stand. My only concern is whether a metal stand sold at Big Al's will be able to hold up 2500lbs of weight. If anyone has a large metal stand for a 100+ gallon tank they bought from Big Als, please share your experience. Does it hold up? Rust over time? Any bending or bowing of metal under weight? Damage to flooring? If you have a wood stand as well, in terms of strength do you believe metal stands are stronger? Any experience will help. Only reason I'm going with a Big Als stand is to keep my tank warranty.


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## fesso clown

Do do a Rocket Engineer's designed DIY stand and skin it real nice. I would (do, I am on my 3rd one... now for a 140G) trust this design over any Marineland or Big Al's POS stand. Very cost effective and totally sturdy. There are 1000's of users on RC with this design.

http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1289362










PS I think your ideas about insurance are a little strange.


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## c31979839

fesso clown said:


> Do do a Rocket Engineer's designed DIY stand and skin it real nice. I would (do, I am on my 3rd one... now for a 140G) trust this design over any Marineland or Big Al's POS stand. Very cost effective and totally sturdy. There are 1000's of users on RC with this design.
> 
> http://gtaaquaria.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1289362
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS I think your ideas about insurance are a little strange.


This is the same design I used when building my 120G stand. This stand is incredibly sturdy and would trust it scaled up.

I will be building another stand based on this design when I get around to building my 180G


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