# Micro Mix



## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Does anyone have any experience mixing their own csm+b using the individual raw ingredients?

Basically I want to remove all the chelating agents out of the mix. 

So instead of using chelated Mn I'd be using its So4 equivalent, Manganese Sulphate. This would be the same for Zn and Cu.

My Fe source would be DTPA.

I may have gone mad here but, I want to experiment with this.


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## aniroc (Aug 23, 2012)

Let us know about your experiment.
My understanding is that the ligand (chelator) is protecting the metal (micronutrient) from oxidation. Oxygen turns Mn into MnO which is not bioavailable to plants. Same goes for Iron. Fe2O3 (rust) is not a good fertilizer.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

I will definitely keep you posted.

Little change of plans. I was able to find the latest tap water report for my water, which is Lake Ontario.

2016 Tap water report for my area.

Fe - 0.005 ppm
Mn - 0.0006 ppm
Cu - 0.008 ppm
Mg - 8.99 ppm
Zn - 0.0028 ppm
Mo - 0.0013 ppm
B - 0.023 ppm
dGH - 122mg/L ~7dGH
PH - 7.72

Based on these #'s it has been recommended I try and only dose Fe and Mn. The water itself should be able to supply enough of all the other traces to keep the tank happy.

Time will tell, let the experimenting being.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

Little update.

I'm just finishing my first two weeks of only dosing Fe at .1ppm and Mg at .05ppm, so I thought.

When doing my original calculation I divided the 500ml of solution by 14 instead of 7 which means I was only dosing half the amount of micros as my original plan, .5ppm and .025ppm. 

I guess we can call this a mini detox! 

Anyways I am seeing some improvement from the reduced micro dosing, my AR mini leaves are start to grow straight and flat again. I even have a few AR variegated starting to flatten out, which I've been told is much hard to grow flat and straight.

Today is water change day and I am planning to go back to my original plan and dose .1ppm of Fe DTPA .5ppm Mg for another 2 weeks to see what happens.

I'll add a couple of picture after water change..


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## infolific (Apr 10, 2016)

Has the reduced micros playing out?


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

After the 4th week of actually dosing only .1ppm of DTPA Fe and .05ppm of Mn I was seeing improvements in some plants and deficiencies in others.

*Alternanthera reineckii* continued to improve, but the odd leaf is still growing a little twisted and stunted. But a 80% improvement in most plants. ADA AS has the ability to hold on to a lot of the minor metals. Not to sure how long it would take for the soil to deplete itself of these reserves. Just because I reduced micros, 3/4 weeks is to short of a period to come to any solid conclusion. There maybe enough stored metals leeching out of the soil to still cause issues with Alternanthera reineckii species. It has been confirmed multiple time that Alternanthera reineckii is very sensitive to EI levels of micros.

I started to notices a deficiencies on the *NEW* leaves of *Hygrophila corymbosa*, definitely signs of a micro deficiency of some sort.

This may have no correlation at all but during the 3rd week of this dosing routine I did two 70% water changes. I did one on my regular water change day Sunday and another on the Thursday of that same week. I did not notice any deficiency symptoms in week three. But in week four I only did one water change on the Sunday and started to notice the deficiency later in that week.

Did the midweek water change in week three replenish the needed minor elements and that's why deficiencies were not present?

Did the tank run out of certain elements in week four due to no midweek water change and in turn caused the deficiencies symptoms on the leaves of Hygrophila corymbosa?

Or did it just take four weeks of low to no extra minor elements add to the tank for Hygrophila corymbosa to finally show deficiencies?

This would be easy to test and I may just do that in the coming weeks.



Anyways, I changed things up and started dosing the label rate of Flourish Trace which provides all the minor elements in non chelated forms. This is still in line with my original plan of removing the EDTA chelate from my micro mix. Now I just have to watch and see how it effects the plants. If I am still seeing deficiencies I will up the rate of Flourish Trace until I see improvements.

The tank has been left to survive on its own since last Friday, while I'm on vacation. No experimenting, no dosing, no water changes, no nothing. Co2 was not touched, it remained at its high levels, lighting intensity was reduced to only two bulbs out of six. I can not remember what I did with the photo period, I believe I lowered it to six hours.

Once home my plan is to continue with .1ppm Fe and .05ppm Mn and Flourish Trace at the label rate. As mentioned I will adjust Flourish Trace levels until I see no deficiencies. 
Macro's will remain at EI levels.

I am still trying to get my hand on the individual non chelated elements that make up CSM+B, but it proving harder than I thought without having to purchase 10lbs or more of each ingredient. Anyone have any insight let me know.

More updates to come.


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## slipfinger (May 11, 2016)

I finally got around to get my hands on all the ingredients to roll my own micro mix with out any of the chelating agents in the mix except for iron which will be Fe DTPA.

These being:
Fe* = DTPA 
Mn = Manganese Sulfate
Cu = Cooper Sulfate
Zn = Zinc Sulfate
Non chelated elements will remain as is, these being:
B = Boron 
Mo = Molybdenum

*Flourish Iron maybe used instead Fe DTPA at some point down the road. Flourish Iron is made using Fe Gluconate.

Fe Gluconate has no binding agent, that being said it does not hang around as long as EDTA or DTPA. But it is easily consumed by the plant while it is around. Another thing to consider when dosing Fe Gluconate is your ph, at higher ph levels it will precipitate much easier. For those that have used it in the past and noticed your tank go a milky white colour right after dosing Fe Gluconate, you have just witness your Fe precipitating out. 

It has been said and proven that the chelating agent EDTA which is what the majority of hobbies have in there micro mixes becomes unstable at Ph above ~6 resulting in the chelating agent unbinding from its element. What happens to it after that is still up for debate. The though is it ends up binding with other elements resulting in those elements becoming unavailable to the plant.
On the other hand DTPA chelating agent is said to stay stable at ph levels up to 7.5. Making DTPA a better source of Fe for most hobbyist.

A question that is raised often is. Does using one chelating agent over the other actually make a difference, considering the small amounts that we use in our hobby? This is what I want to explore. 

I have also heard many people comment, you need the chelating agent present or the element will just bind with other elements and become unavailable to the plant. This is not necessarily the case as Flourish Trace states they use non chelated elements in their product. Same goes for Flourish Iron which is made with Iron Gluconate. I'm guessing Flourish must know a thing or two about nutrients in a planted tank and there is a reason they are using non chelated elements.

I could have simply continued to use Flourish Trace and Flourish Iron, but where is the fun in that? I'd also like to play with different ratio's of each element as this little experiment rolls along.

I have my first of two experiment tanks setup. Once I have the second tank setup and running I will update this thread with all the final details and how the experiment will end up playing out.

Basically the setup will be, two tanks setup as close as possible, same tap water, same Co2 levels, same macros, same temp, basically the same everything except for the micros. One tank will be dosed classic Plantx CSM + B the other tank will be all the same PPM as CSM + B but I'll be dosing my own micro mix without chelate.

Stay tuned.


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