# bigal's fish sale



## distrbd (May 16, 2006)

Hi all.
Today Sunday sep.16 .06 bigal has a special price on Glowlight tetras and golden mountain clouds
7 tetras for 2.99 and 4 goldens for 2.99
this is not a bad price specially for those who want a schooling fish or are looking for hardy fish to cycle a tank.I just thought it's a good info to share.
the Bigal on 850 Dundas st.E ,Mississauga.


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## kweenshaker (Mar 11, 2006)

just so you know, one should *NEVER* cycle a tank with fish in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

kweenshaker said:


> just so you know, one should *NEVER* cycle a tank with fish in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't agree. I have cycled many tanks with a very small bio load. Like one or two small fish in a 125. It works and the fish were fine at the end of the cycle. I've even cycled a marine tank with a damsel fish.


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## distrbd (May 16, 2006)

moon said:


> I don't agree. I have cycled many tanks with a very small bio load. Like one or two small fish in a 125. It works and the fish were fine at the end of the cycle. I've even cycled a marine tank with a damsel fish.


I agree with MOOn ,I have always I mean always cycle with a few hardy fish in the tank and the fish all survived.
Here is some info for those who think otherwise:
http://rexgrigg.com/./cycle.htm


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## kweenshaker (Mar 11, 2006)

Just because the fish survive doesn't mean that they aren't affected.
Fishless cycling is so easy anyway...I can't STAND it when people use live animals like that.

People shouldn't be so ignorant...it's animal abuse....There are sooo many articles on it, such as this one.

"When setting up a brand new tank, the most important step involved is the so-called cycling of the tank: that initial period (usually 4-6 weeks) where a large colony of beneficial bacteria will grow and help process the wastes produced by the tank's inhabitants. During the cycle, certain toxins - mainly ammonia and nitrite - rise to very high levels until the bacterial colony is large enough to process them. Since the existence of fish wastes have always been considered the starting point of a cycle, traditionally the cycling process would involve initially adding a few tougher fish (such as Zebra Danios) and allowing their waste to cycle the tank. This method is indeed effective, however, it is *very stressful for even the strongest fish.* Ammonia is highly toxic, and its effect on the fish's gills could be compared to shampoo in your eyes...it "burns"! Worse yet, it will also cause *permanent damage* to the very tissues that allow the fish to breath. This damage is so serious that a significant fraction of fish used to cycle a tank die during the cycling period itself, and even those who do manage to survive the cycle have their *life expectancy greatly shortened*, often dying within the next few months instead of living a happy life of 3-10 years that almost all fish are capable of. In many cases, people also end up getting stuck with a few fish that they really didn't want to have in the first place, but bought them anyway because someone told them they were "good for cycling", if such a thing exists."


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

I have never cycled a tank, including ones that have expensive fish in them. There have been numerous time where I have picked up fish at a club meeting, and had to set up a tank for them, while they waited in the bag. I have yet to lose a fish from this. I change water as i deem necessary, and at some point the tank becomes cycled. I don't care how long it takes, it happens when it happens. Occasionally, I will be able to start with a filter from another tank, which is preferable. I, also, start with a sterile environment; I bleach everything before use.
In reality, a tank doesn't need to be cycled if enough water is changed. A flow through system would never cycle, and the fish would be better off than in a cycled system, which is merely a compromise for expediency's sake.


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## Canadiancray (Apr 27, 2006)

I agree. I gave up worrying about cycling tanks years ago. I just make sure the tanks are lightly stocked for the first little while. If I have some avail I will grab some filter media from running tanks but I'm not overly concerned.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention.......


kweenshaker said:


> Just because the fish survive doesn't mean that they aren't affected.
> Fishless cycling is so easy anyway...I can't STAND it when people use live animals like that.
> 
> People shouldn't be so ignorant...it's animal abuse....There are sooo many articles on it, such as this one.
> ...


BLAH BLAH BLAH

They are fish. I used them for bait to catch bigger ones that I then gut & eat. If I jam a hook through the head & body of a minnow & nobody says boo why should I worry about cycling a tank with a few cheap danios or the like.


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## distrbd (May 16, 2006)

Canadiancray said:


> I agree. I gave up worrying about cycling tanks years ago. I just make sure the tanks are lightly stocked for the first little while. If I have some avail I will grab some filter media from running tanks but I'm not overly concerned.
> 
> Oh yeah I forgot to mention.......
> 
> ...


I guess you are ignorant too just like me or who ever that does not agree or think the same as you know who.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

The amount of ammonia and nitrite produced by a small fish in a relatively large volume of water will not be sufficient to be toxic to the fish. As the nitrifying bacteria builds up in the filter system you can gradually add more fish. I've been doing this for the past 40 years and have not lost a single fish because of it. It is not due ignorance that a number of us do this but because of convenience. We are all animal lovers and do not willfully harm the pets in our care. 
As a matter of fact the damsel fish that I used to cycle the marine tank lived for a number of years and bred as well.
Joe


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

moon said:


> The amount of ammonia and nitrite produced by a small fish in a relatively large volume of water will not be sufficient to be toxic to the fish. As the nitrifying bacteria builds up in the filter system you can gradually add more fish. I've been doing this for the past 40 years and have not lost a single fish because of it. It is not due ignorance that a number of us do this but because of convenience. We are all animal lovers and do not willfully harm the pets in our care.
> As a matter of fact the damsel fish that I used to cycle the marine tank lived for a number of years and bred as well.
> Joe


That's innaccurate.

And even tiny amounts of ammonia causes thickening of the platelets in the gill tissue, reducing the fish's gas exchange ability. This is a fact.

Its your decision how you cycle your tank. Just be aware that some damage will always be caused physiologically, though you are unlikely to notice it.

Additionally, as per BA's "sales", those fish are so rediculously low quality and poorly handled that you're likely to lose half of them anyways...

Big Al's sometimes has ok africans but for the most part they stink... All of em...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Well.... I think we can all take the info provided here and do with it what we wish.....

 Noone MUST do this or that... There are so many ways to do things in this hobby its hard to know whats right and wrong.. 
Shop where you wanna shop.. just take care in the stock you choose and the price you pay for it. :3


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## kweenshaker (Mar 11, 2006)

I just think it's sad when people willingly harm animals that are in our care. There is no such thing as "just a fish".


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## Pablo (Mar 27, 2006)

Ciddian said:


> Well.... I think we can all take the info provided here and do with it what we wish.....
> 
> Noone MUST do this or that... There are so many ways to do things in this hobby its hard to know whats right and wrong..
> Shop where you wanna shop.. just take care in the stock you choose and the price you pay for it. :3


Nope. You're wrong Jess. There's the right way, and the wrong way. Its not hard to know what's right and wrong. Corroboration by many reputable sources and common sense make up 90% of it.
Causing physiological damage to an animal that the average layperson can't spot and assuming its ok isn't cool.

My favourite aquarium industry quote of all time... from Extreme Marine-
Do it right or don't ******* do it 

ALWAYS clone up new tanks. it doesn't take much. One really well cycled sponge or a few hundred grams of gravel, and 2 or 3 smaller fish will work up a good bacterial colony, slowly adding more fish, with no stress, no ammonia, and no nitrite. You simply add the fish AND biofilter and grow them out together. The more biofilter you start with the more fish.

Its not hard to get cycled media. Friends, stores, whatever...


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

So how the hell do i know if your way is right? O_O... lol

I just go to wilson.. rofl.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm kind of in the moon camp here.

I wouldn't just put fish straight into a tank set up that minuite with all fresh equipment and water, but I've plonked fish into "new" setups for 42 years with never a problem.

I have a whole wack of equipment, part of which is a motley selection of HOB filters and they're all in use. If I need a tank set up pronto, I'll just put one on the tank, add plants and stuff from existing tanks, maybe some substrate too, and fill with water from established tanks. That gives you a really good seeding. If you don't put in a mass of fish there's not a problem.

I moved last September. Split with my wife (amicably  ) and that allowed me to move the aquariums bit by bit, not all in one go. I moved over a 6 foot tank, threw back in the unwashed sand that was in it before, plants, cycled filters, etc. Hooked it all up, refilled with 50% from already running aquariums and 50% dechlorinated fresh. Next day, 3 _Corydoras aneus_ went in to provide biological input. These fish were at least 7 years old, and they bred almost immedeately! I let the babies grow for a couple of weeks and then added the 13 fairly large Clown Loaches.....no problem.

Back in 1964 when I started keeping fish nobody knew anything about cycling or the nitrogen cycle for that matter. We never even did water-changes, just topped up evapouration. I think the idea of water-changes came in around 1968ish. I'm not even sure you could buy even a pH test kit.
My first filter was an airlift operated HOB. Power filters or powerheads didn't exist. I saw my first Eheim on a Marine tank in a shop in about 1970.

I worked in an importers from 68 till 70 and we changed water on crowded stock tanks 50% every day straight from the tap.

I've never lost fish during initial setup and indeed most of the fish that were early into a given tank have always lasted for years. The hobby has become far more technical now, but the fish stay the same.

Oh...just remembered......the first time I used dechlorinator _ever_ was in 2001 after I came from England to Toronto 

Funnily enough, I watched "Myth Busters" last night and they did the Goldfish Memory Span test. They went to a shop bought two tanks and equipment, plus 10 goldfish. Set them up, hung on the brand new Aqaclear HOBs and started to feed the fish quite heavily.....and they were skinny little mites too.
Within a few days one tank had a big bacterial bloom and off the scale Ammonia. One of the fish died. I was impressed they actually explained the principal of nitrifying bacteria to the viewer after talking to the petshop owner.
6 weeks on in their test the fish all looked fat and very healthy.....and had a memory span greater than 3 seconds....which we could have told them 

I like the basic idea of fishless cycling. It makes more sense, I can't argue that. I think it's absolutely the best thing for a beginner to do, but it's also the hardest thing to _make_ them do because people buy their first fish tank in the same way they buy a new Home Theatre system. They want to get it home, unpack it and deafen the neighbours.....instant gratification.
For most experienced hobbyists, we have other ways of acheiving the goal, and because of our rabid enthusiasm there often isn't the time to wait for fishless cycling.
I have spare tanks sitting around "just in case". I can throw together a partially cycled system in a trice, but I fully understand most people don't have that luxury.

Did this one last Wednesday.............








That's about 2 hours after setup. Next day, 3 of these went in....








2 Female and 1 Male _Macropodus erythropterus_ courtesey of The Menagerie. They've been eating like pigs. It's a 16" cube.

Just tested the water and it's (honest *****) 0 Nitrite, 0 Ammonia.

Martin.


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## wtac (Mar 17, 2006)

Ciddian said:


> So how the hell do i know if your way is right? O_O... lol
> 
> I just go to wilson.. rofl.


Don't get me mixed up in all of this...LMAO.

Nice set-up MT-ED . It's going to be stunning when it fills in.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Wilson.

Martin.


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## moon (Mar 11, 2006)

I am in the Martin camp. I usually have a number of sponge filters going in my existing tanks. When I need to set up a new tank, just add some water from an existing tank, top up with conditioned water, add a sponge filter and add fish. Yes I do remember the air lift operated HOB filters. I think they were made by Metaframe. I used these on some steel framed slate bottomed tanks. The hobby has certainly come a long way.


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## MT-ED (Apr 4, 2006)

Here you go moon. You'll probably get a kick out of this:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2870

Martin.


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