# German Blue ramss!



## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

well i have a pair of rams in my 30gal tank with 10 tetras and a loach

lately, my rams has been very territorial. they always flare at eachother when the other comes near and sometimes they even "headbutt" or "ram" eachother. 
i know that its natural for them to be doing this but before not so much. 
before, they would just occasionally flare and then go on in being a good couple (following eachother, when one hides the other looks for him/her, kinda of thing)

i also noticed in my last spawn, the female and male would fight so much which caused the female to hide alot. then when the female got preg, and laid the eggs, the male had no idea where the eggs were! therefore - no fert eggs=no fry 

anyone with rams have this problem before? or is it just me? 
and if is it, how do i fix it? the next spawn should be in a week or so + - a few days

30gal tank
2 amazon swords (med)
javamoss
java fern

fertz- excel and iron

ph -7.2ish
all nitrite, amonia, nitrate readings are normal
tank at 83F


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Hey aln, I have never had this problem unless they are the same sex?. Usually male and female rams will participate in spawning and the male may get more aggressive during this time but it seems like the male is immature?. 

I never see head butting in my pairs. I only see this in males competing for females or females defending there spawn from unwanted males and other random females. 

If at all possible could you post a picture of the pair?.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

i'll try to get pictures up tonight. 
my pair has spawned before tho. i have 2 good batches with them that i sold.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

Oh well then thats good, has the male just recently begun not to care for the eggs?


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

There's old cichlid breeder lore that in some species, a well-established pair will 'decide' they no longer want to spawn with each other, but will often accept new mates. This may or may not be what's happening here.

Another possibility is that they've gotten out of synch in their readiness to spawn, so while the female is ready, the male isn't, so they can't form a proper pair bond.

A couple of things you might try are separating them for a while, out of each other's sight, or lowering the temperature to get them out of spawning condition for a few weeks or months. If they've been spawning continually for some time, they may need a break. In nature they probably only spawn during a period of a few months per year.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

well this started to happen when i seperated the 2 when there was a pretty bad fight/chase of fin nipping (good thing it healed next day)
after i introduced them back together they kind of slowly started to behave this way

i turned the temp. down a bit like you said. 
but i thought cichlids normally only pair up once and thats forever..unless one dies

here are some pictures of them and my tank
































the last picture is where the male domiants


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## bae (May 11, 2007)

aln said:


> well this started to happen when i seperated the 2 when there was a pretty bad fight/chase of fin nipping (good thing it healed next day)
> after i introduced them back together they kind of slowly started to behave this way
> 
> i turned the temp. down a bit like you said.
> but i thought cichlids normally only pair up once and thats forever..unless one dies


Beautiful tank and beautiful fish!

Dr. Paul Loiselle, the famous cichlid expert, says that cichlids may seem to pair for life because in the aquarium environment they get into sync and are usually both ready to spawn at the same time, but technically, each spawning requires that a new pair bond be formed. His book 'The Cichlid Aquarium' is worth the read for the explanation of cichlid behavior.

Hence my theory that these two have fallen out of sync. You may just have to wait for them to get it together. My idea with reducing the temps is that this would get them both into a non-breeding state, then you can raise the temps and get them going again after a little while.

Maybe somebody else will have a better idea.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

That sounds like it may be happening in this situation Bae. I have had similar experiences where the male would chase the female all the time and then they spawned 2 days later and were peaceful. Nice looking tank and fish . hope the pair works it out in a few days.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

i guess its good to give them a good month or 2 of rest until they, themselves want to start breeding. 
thanks for the advice 
and where can i get that book?cause i'm interested in getting discus in the future, when i finish my basement reno and get my 125 gallon tank


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## DaFishMan (Dec 19, 2006)

"Beautiful tank and beautiful fish!"

I'd have to agree


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

bae said:


> Beautiful tank and beautiful fish!
> 
> Dr. Paul Loiselle, the famous cichlid expert, says that cichlids may seem to pair for life because in the aquarium environment they get into sync and are usually both ready to spawn at the same time, but technically, each spawning requires that a new pair bond be formed. His book 'The Cichlid Aquarium' is worth the read for the explanation of cichlid behavior.
> 
> ...


This only additional advice I have on top of bae's is that raising the temperature will not necessarily do anything in terms of inducing them to spawn.

In the past, with apisto's especially, when the male is ready to spawn and the female isn't I have been able to trigger her into spawning mode by doing a small 20% water change with slightly cooler water. The idea is that it simulates the rainy season which triggers the floods, which in turn is their natural spawning time. Who knows if this is really what it does, but it has worked consistently for me so it might be worth trying, especially if your female is getting beat up a bit.


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

I agree with Chris S. When i do water changes i notice my rams spawn soon after. possibly 4-7days at the most. But it depends on the pair too. Stress can cause of course negative effects.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

i'll keep you guys posted


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

hey i think my females might want to spawn LOL without my help 
i see it cleaning and flatting a part of the gravel in a corner. and she has been trying to get the males attention i'm guessing but the male just kinda chases her off and she goes back and flares him. the male is very territorial for some reason. its even fending off my cardinals and rummy nose sometimes and hides back inbetween 2 driftwood ( umm you can see the set up a few post back. 

ONE MORE (IMPORTANT)
i have a dwarf loach in my tank thats like fully grown i think. around 2.5 inchs
can the female fend him off if he trys to go for the eggs? or is he to big?


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

The chance of the rams raising the fry successfully in your community tank is almost 0, nighttime is when they usually disappear.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

haha  the only problem i have is when they are laying the eggs. i dont want the loach to pop up (hoping the male can fend him off) 
after they lay the eggs i seperate the tank with a divider. and have a small night in the corner for the parent to protect the eggs or when they become free swimmers. 
i just dont want to seperate the tank before they laid. cause i notice (since i been doing it for like the third time last week) that when i seperate the tank the male and females then to become kinda out of sync after and = stress+more chasing and flare = bad batch. but after the have laid eggs they seem alot better 

guess i was to hastly in protecting them


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

lol yeah that may cause some unwanted stress before laying.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

weird thing happened today that made me freak!
i turned on the light to my tank and saw my female swimming towards me..with 1 fin! @[email protected]# i was like WTF?...what happened. looking from ever angle to see if it was just earli and the morning and i'm seeing thing. but there was no fin. i sit there for 5 min thinking how this could of happened as i watch her and out of no where at the corner of my eye i saw 2 fins..

she had her left fin flat against her body and decides not to use it...lucky it still has 2 fins but gave me a scare in the morning. thinking it was stressed i di a 20% water change just incase there was something in the water


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

lol lucky she has fins still that would have been a real bummer. IMO a fish that keeps its fins close to its body is under stress and has a damaged(normally) fin and is trying to keep it protected to let it heal. Keep an eye on her.


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## aln (Jan 26, 2010)

she seems perfectly fine now. i checked both fins and they're in perfect shape and is moving normally  she even chases the male now :O and hes hiding under my sponge filter atm


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## Tropicana (Feb 15, 2009)

lol nice, revenge! haha.


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