# Cardinal tetra journal



## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

I was always interested in Neons and Cardinals, but got intimidated by all the talk of high mortality and weak stock, etc.

I got 10 Neons back in 2007 and I still have 5. I didn´t lose any during the trip home, acclimation, or quarantine. Scared by NTD, I culled 4 which in hindsight was probably a rookie mistake. 1 fish did die in my tank (slow fin rot in the tail was the symptom for a few months).
All in all, I´d say it was not as bad as I had heard. Not nearly. These 5 have been in my tank over 18 months.
They were from PJ´s in Scarborough Town, probably tank raised.

So when the opportunity came up to get some Cardinal tetras as part of a mass buy, I went for it.
I asked for 8 but turns out the guy put 9 in the bag. I was told these are wild caught.
This was a bonus to me. One school of thought is that wild caught is not as inbred and
should be hardier. There are pros and cons, but Big Al´s sells wild caught Cardinals for more money so...

I´m starting this thread as a journal of my Cardinal tetra experience. I want to find out first hand how they will do living in the GTA (I use tap water with Prime, no other alteration).

Friday, Jan 23: picked them up after work. I was lucky in that Friday was a not so cold day in a generally nasty cold winter. 15 min drive home. They were TINY. Probably around 1 cm / 1/2 inch each. Colour was kind of faded. I acclimated by the rookie way: float the bag fo 15 min, add a scoop of tank water, 15 min, another scoop, 15 min, dump into the tank. All 9 survived.

Wed, Feb 4: 2 weeks minus 1 day. All 9 still with me. They coloured up well and have all grown like 25% (subjective). I have been feeding them Hikari micro pellets.
They hang out with my full grown Neons.
If all 9 make it to maturity, I´ll have to figure out if this is too much for a 10G tank.
I´ll do that quantitatively by water parameter.

The tank:
10G Waterhome w/ kit light (18 watt) - light is on 4 hours a day
Filter: Aquaclear 20 HOB
Temp: ~76 F via a Visitherm Stealth
Plants: some Java moss on a rock, some algae on the back tank glass
Fish: 1 full grown albino cory (survivor from 2 years ago - got to get more)
5 full grown neon tetras
9 baby cardinal tetras


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## Janz (Apr 12, 2008)

my experiance with cardinals is that alot die int he beginning (ok maybe not alot, but some usually do) but the ones that last the first week or so last a really long time.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

It has been a month and all 9 cardinals from the Desjardo batch are still alive.
They´ve also all grown a lot, probably at the 3/4 inch to 1 inch size.
The colours are good, indicating they are doing well. I will call it 
quarantine complete. They are starting to catch up in size to most of
my 2 year old neons. (Cardinals are supposed to have a slightly larger
full grown size so we shall see.)

Wherever these came from (I know they started off wild caught, but
wonder who is the local supplier), this was a pretty good batch and I am pleased.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*11 weeks, still have all 9 Cardinals*

I am pleasantly surprised.
It has been 11 weeks and I still have all 9 Cardinals, no losses. They have grown significantly but still not full sized - I have 5 mature Neons in the tank that are noticeably larger. Colours are good, no visible deformities.

The Cardinals and the Neons mingle well, as expected.

I hear that Cardinals have larger mature size than Neons so I am waiting to see for myself.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

I still have all 9 cardinals.

I found out yesterday that my Visitherm Stealth (50W) heater is broken.
It has probably not been working for over a month. I had noticed on
my weekly water changes that the water felt warmer than usual
but I didn't even check, having drank too much "Stealth is the best" coolaid.

The air temperature in my house ranges from 66F (some nights) to 74F (some afternoons) so I am surprised I have not suffered any losses. Beginners' luck.

Anyhow, I bought a new Stealth from Big Al's and have also put the thermometer in a more prominent location in the tank. Temperature is now steady at 76F.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

It is now almost 10 months since I got these. I still have all 9 Cardinal Tetras.
They have grown and were the same size as my last 2 yr old Neon Tetra before it died (hopefully old age).
The colours are good and no obvious signs of disease or malformation.
(My particular batch of 10 Neons from PJ´s were prone to what I call mouth/cheek tumours.)

This Desjardo batch has been hardy.

I don´t mess with the tank too much. The only changes to the tank in 2 years have been:
- changed the substrate from newbie blue gravel to black ColorQuartz sand
- tossed my java moss on a rock and replace with Taiwan moss on a rock


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Just so you know, most cardinal tetra's are wild caught.

Also, Cardinal tetra's can live over 10 years, so dying after two is likely not old age.


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## gucci17 (Oct 11, 2007)

Chris S said:


> Just so you know, most cardinal tetra's are wild caught.
> 
> Also, Cardinal tetra's can live over 10 years, so dying after two is likely not old age.


I've heard that most cardinal's are wild caught as well. But never heard that they can live over 10 years...perhaps you were thinking of neon tetras? From what I recall, neon's have a longer lifespan than cardinals.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

Reports on lifespan vary wildly. A lot is "I heard that" type of second hand information.

- people who keep micro fish observe that in general they do not live
that long compared to larger fish
- there are certainly anecdotal reports of Neons and Cardinals living
beyond 5 years (eg: 10 yrs as in the previous posting, and 12 years
that I heard from a respected member of another forum)
- whether fish are wild caught or tank bred is information subject to change.
In the past it was reported that Cardinals are hard to breed, hence most
are wild caught. I am not sure if this information is current.
Reason: at large stores such as Big Al's I see both tank bred as well as
wild caught Cardinals (and Neons). The wild caught fish sell at a price
premium. I do not know if this is because the tank bred ones are cheaper,
implying it is easy to breed them now, or if the "wild" label commands 
a price premium

I started this thread to share what I am directly observing, with
fish I bought in the GTA. 

I am an amateur, so what I experience might be what other newbies
will experience. Neon/Cardinal Tetras are a commonly available and 
economical fish for newbies. A lot of people who would otherwise get these 
get spooked by the reports of mass die off enroute home from the store
or during acclimatization. 

Here are the conditions I give my fish. Nothing fancy.

1. my tank is a 10G Aquahome kit with their stock 18W light
2. I feed store bought food (Hikari micro pellets)
3. I use tap water (with Prime)
4. Water is heated via 50W Stealth heater to ~76 F
5. I try to do a partial (20%) water change every week, averaging every 2
6. I DO NOT follow the instructions on my Aquaclear. Instead, I squeeze
out and reuse the sponge. I also have 2 sponges, omitting the carbon
pack. I have been using the same sponge for over 2 years.
7. I do have some plants in the form of Taiwan moss on a rock
8. 4 hours of electric light each day on timer
9. I acclimatized by floating the bag in the tank for 20 min, add some tank
water, then dump them all in. I've not lost any fish during 
acclimatization - so far.


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## Chris S (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, from talking to one of the breeders (or "the" breeder) in ontario, their lifespan is typically 7-10 years. I've never kept one beyond two years, but not because they die, but because for whatever reason I find a new home for them. Tetra's in general have 5+ year lifespans.

In the wild, due to the dry season, most die off annually.


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## CanadaPleco (Sep 7, 2009)

I have had some wild caught cardinals from Oliver @ below water for 3 years now, in tanks with larger fish as well... Ya I had 25 to start with, and have lost a number of them, but I think that is just mainly because they didnt compete well for food vs the fish that they were with. Cardinals are quite hardy as far as I am concerned. I've had a school of congo tetras for like 5+ years, they are awesome, can't kill the things. Tetras live long!


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*14 month status*

It is now over 14 months since I brought my Desjardo batch of Cardinals
home. I lost one last month. It had stopped eating for a few week
but had no obvious signs of disease. It got skinny and just died one day.
No spine deformity, no obvious growths, and even the colouring had been good until the last couple days.

Still, 1 loss out of 9 in 14 months is pretty good.

As for the remaining 8 Cardinals:
- their sizes range wildly, some are how do I say "fat" while others 
more lean
- colouring has been good (my lighting is a 3 year old 18W tube that
came with my Aquahome kit - it is not nearly as bright as when first
bought but no need to change it out and create more landfill)


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## CanadaPleco (Sep 7, 2009)

The fat larger ones will are the females...


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

Hey, that's good to hear. I've added 10 to mine original 6 as well. I think 2 or 3 of them came down with internal bacteria infection and I have to put them in the hospital tank. They are OK now. I find that they do much better in a planted tank for some reason.

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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

re: Cardinals favoring plants
I have a bunch of Taiwan moss netted to a rock. I find that they hide
behind it when the tank light is on. They only seem to come out to
eat, or when the light is off.


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## Zebrapl3co (Mar 29, 2006)

sunjwd said:


> re: Cardinals favoring plants
> I have a bunch of Taiwan moss netted to a rock. I find that they hide
> behind it when the tank light is on. They only seem to come out to
> eat, or when the light is off.


My orginal 6 used to hid under the plants all the time too. But I after I got the 10 new ones that almost jump at my fingers when I feed. It eventually brought the other 6 out into the open. I believe the 6 orginal ones are wild caught and the 10 new ones are captive breed.

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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

Another year and time for a report.
I still have my 8 Cardinal Tetras.
In the Fall (2010) I added ~50 red cherry shrimp.
The number of shrimp seems to not change so perhaps
the tetras are eating the newborn.
The shrimp do a good job keeping my Taiwan moss
and substrate algae-free. 
Not so good with the algae on the glass.

7 of the Cardinal tetras are doing well.
1 which was always the runt is fading.
Over at least the past 6 months it has had trouble
eating. I can tell it is hungry because it is always first
to dash into the food (Hikari micro pellets). However,
4 out of 5 times it spits the food out again.
The belly area has been slowly shrinking so this fish
either has a birth defect that is starting to manifest or
it has some long slow illness. It is visibly "not normal looking".

I have replaced my original (2006) Hagen Waterhome
18w light tube with an 18w "warm" tube from Home Depot.
This is a bit too warm and everything looks more green yellow.
I'm used to it now.

My Taiwan moss is growing great with the lights on 7 hours
each day. It is now taking up 25% of the space in my 
10g.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

sunjwd said:


> Another year and time for a report.
> I still have my 8 Cardinal Tetras.
> In the Fall (2010) I added ~50 red cherry shrimp.
> The number of shrimp seems to not change so perhaps
> ...


How big is your tank, and what other livestock do you have in there? Perhaps you could put more cardinals in there? I read that cardinals do better in bigger schools.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

solarz said:


> How big is your tank, and what other livestock do you have in there? Perhaps you could put more cardinals in there? I read that cardinals do better in bigger schools.


10g with 8 Cardinal tetras and ~50 RCS.
They are already doing pretty good now.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*4th year check-in*

It is now 4 years since I got my 9 Cardinals.
I still have 6.
No visible deformities, though a couple have tattered tails.
The Taiwan moss in my tank is somewhat our of control and this
gives the fish a lot of places to hide. I haven't pruned the moss as
I also have a colony of RCS hidden in there.
I can go days thinking I only have 4 fish, then spot all 6 again.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

sunjwd said:


> It is now 4 years since I got my 9 Cardinals.
> I still have 6.
> No visible deformities, though a couple have tattered tails.
> The Taiwan moss in my tank is somewhat our of control and this
> ...


Hey, just wanted to say that your original post was invaluable when I first decided to get cardinal tetras. I was scared off at first by all the stories of "fragile" cardinals on the internet, but after reading your post, I got the confidence to give those wonderful little fishes a try.

I've had my own cardinals for almost two years now. I started with 29, and at last count, I have 25 left.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

solarz said:


> Hey, just wanted to say that your original post was invaluable when I first decided to get cardinal tetras. I was scared off at first by all the stories of "fragile" cardinals on the internet, but after reading your post, I got the confidence to give those wonderful little fishes a try.
> 
> I've had my own cardinals for almost two years now. I started with 29, and at last count, I have 25 left.


Thanks. Pet stores and 2nd hand postings tend to recommend guppies and platies. I disagree:
1. they have short life spans - so they die and you think you did something wrong.
2. they breed like crazy - to a newbie a swollen female looks scary - and if the fry survive they overload the ecosystem


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## xriddler (Feb 16, 2012)

may i ask how you do WC for cardinals. I find that when i do water changes just before lights out i get die offs or sick cardinals in the morning but i do use room temperature water which fluctuates my tanks temp. So your knowledge would be much appreciated.


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

xriddler said:


> may i ask how you do WC for cardinals. I find that when i do water changes just before lights out i get die offs or sick cardinals in the morning but i do use room temperature water which fluctuates my tanks temp. So your knowledge would be much appreciated.


If you are getting die offs, it's not the water changes that are causing them.

Cardinal tetras (and most fish) will not mind a temporary drop of a 5 degrees. I've routinely done 30% PWCs, sometimes without even dechlor, that dropped the temperature from 25C to 20C with no ill effects.

IIRC, you introduced your cardinals while your tank is still cycling right? You might still be experiencing the lingering effects of that.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*Water changes*



xriddler said:


> may i ask how you do WC for cardinals. I find that when i do water changes just before lights out i get die offs or sick cardinals in the morning but i do use room temperature water which fluctuates my tanks temp. So your knowledge would be much appreciated.


I use a siphon and siphon out about 20-25% of the tank.

I have 3 of those supermarket 1gallon plastic distilled water bottles that I fill with tap water at close to the right temperature by feel with 5 drops of Excel each. (My tank is at 76.5 Celsius)
I pour the new water into the tank over my hand to stop it from stirring up my substrate too much.

I usually change my water either late afternoon or just after dinner, but I'm not as disciplined about it as I should be.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*5th year check-in*

It is April, 2014 and I have had my Cardinal Tetras for just over 5 years now.
(I got them as ~1cm babies from a previous forum member Desjardo back in January, 2009.)
From my initial batch of 9 I still have 5 fish. Number 6 didn't show signs of sickness but disappeared one day last year. My 10g Waterhome tank is overgrown with Taiwan moss so it is possible the carcass was hidden in the tangle of plants. If so I assume my RCS took care of it.

I switched to a flake food last year when my 2nd bag of Hikari micro-pellet ran out. I was at a Pet Smart and they didn't carry the Hikari stuff. I'll switch back to the Hikari when the flake food runs out.

The colours are good and the fish seem in good condition. They hide in my tangle of Taiwan moss most of the time so aside from feeding time it looks like I have a moss and RCS tank.

I had fully intended to buy more Cardinals (I'm sure a planted 10G can sustain 15 of these with comfort) so that they will have more courage in numbers and hide less - just never seemed to have the time/opportunity.
I've got a good tank that has been very stable for 5 years so I am reluctant to put in unknown additions. As with most newbies, I have just the 10G and no space for a quarantine tank. I'm keeping my eyes open for mass buys from long time forum members.

I've gotten sloppy over the years, changing the water and cleaning the filter (2 sponges) every couple of months. I've only replaced the one sponge once, when it looked like it was starting to fall apart.
During the winter, the dry indoor air drops the water level about 1 gallon every 2 weeks which I top up (tap water with 5 drops Prime).

5 years is a major milestone for micro-fish so I'm interested to see what
happens with this bunch this year.

Tank: 10G Waterhome kit with Aquaclear
Temp: ~76 F via Jager 50Watt


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

It's wonderful to hear that your cardinals are still kicking after 5 years!

I love cardinal tetras, they're my favorite fish in the hobby. I prefer to get them small so that I can enjoy the full span of their life. If you're looking to get more cardinals, PJ's in Scarb Town Center has good price and stock.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*5 year 11 month check-in*

It is almost 6 years. From the original 9, I now have 4 cardinals. This is a long time for such little fish. However, now they look kind of "ragged". 
Also in the tank:
- Large amount of Taiwan moss
- RCS population from a few years back
- a lot of algae on the back and side walls of the 10G

Now that my moss has overgrown most of the tank, the fish tend to hide until it is feeding time. I rarely see them. It may also be that schooling fish feel more spooked unless there are numbers.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*6 years and 3 months check-in*

Well it is just over 6 years. I lost 2 in the past few months. They just looked old, if that means anything. Still have 2 with good colour. They tend to hide in the moss and only dart out to feed. I'm feeding them Hikari micro pellets.

Life is busy and so I've gotten sloppy with the water changes (every couple months) and filter cleaning (usually every 3 weeks - when the water slows due to clogging) but I figure that huge clump of Taiwan moss in the tank offers a great biological buffer.

My set-up:
Jager 50W heater at approximately 76-77 F.
Aquaclear hang-on-back filter configured with 2 sponges and 1 bag of the ceramic. 1 more sponge with a hole poked in it over the filter intake to protect my RCS. 
2 remaining wild caught Cardinal tetras.
Sustaining population of RCS.
Replacement water is tap water with 5 drops of Prime per gallon. Still using the original bottle I bought, about half way thru it.

Pretty impressed with the Aquaclear. It came with the tank in an Aquahome kit about 10 years ago. Motor and rotor still running. Simple seems to work.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

*Wrapping up*

It is now 6 and a half years and my cardinal tetra experiment is over.
I wouldn't have believed it when I started that such little fish can live that many years. I have thought of adding more fish to the tank over the past couple of years as the dwindling number of fish started to hide - expected behaviour - but I didn't want to mess with a healthy tank by bringing in new fish.

I've shut down my 10 year old 10G Aquahome tank.


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## Reckon (Mar 6, 2013)

sunjwd said:


> It is now 6 and a half years and my cardinal tetra experiment is over.
> I wouldn't have believed it when I started that such little fish can live that many years. I have thought of adding more fish to the tank over the past couple of years as the dwindling number of fish started to hide - expected behaviour - but I didn't want to mess with a healthy tank by bringing in new fish.
> 
> I've shut down my 10 year old 10G Aquahome tank.


I just want to say great job on sticking to your experiment. 6 years is definitely a long time to commit to learning. I wish you the best in your next fish tank endeavor. Thank you for your cardinal tetra journal and for the information you have posted.


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## sunjwd (May 31, 2007)

Thank you for the kind words.


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