# Bichirs Deathrolling



## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Hey guys, so I moved last weekend, and everything was fine and dandy, and then monday night i came home, to one of my delhezi's 'deathroliing' or 'spinning'. This one was odd, because he was bent in a U and kind of flailing. And after a couple of hours of this, I euthanized him.

Then tuesday, I came home to one of my larger delhezis doing the same thing, without being bent in a U. I did a 25% water change, but by morning, he died. So the only answer I could come up with was a possible parasite, so I treated the tank wednesday night.

And now, today, my little albino bichir is also doing the spinning. Everyone else in the tank is happy and swimming around normally, but this deathrolling seems to come on quite quickly. The albino was perfectly fine and eating at midnight last night. 

Just trying to get some answers and see if anyone else has had this type of problem. The only things that changed in the tank upon moving was the gravel (I got brand new stuff so I don't think its a source of contaminant) and obviously the water (I moved 2 blocks down the street, and brought as much of the cycled water as i could). 

If anyone was any input it'd be greatly appreciated!


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## Jackson (Jan 30, 2009)

I doubt it's a parasite issue. I would treat for internal bacterial infections. I don't remember off the top of my head what's meds are safe for them. I would not go and use mela/Pima fix. Since they're dropping off quickly like you said it sounds like a serious issue. I find the fix it twins are only good for minor problems. 

Is your water in check? Even if it's not perfect I can't see them dropping like this polys can tolerate some crap conditions. 

What type of substrate is it you put in? Did you clean it thoroughly?


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't have a fresh tesh kit, I've hardly ever needed to use one, but I mean they were fine the whole weekend after I moved, and I have fish in with the bichirs that are way more sensitive to water conditions than the bichirs, and they seem perfectly normal. 

I switched out gravel and put in new gravel, rinsed thoroughly. I've done this plenty of times before in other tanks and never had a problem. 

My only other thoughts where gravel ingestion, but They've always been in gravel without an issue, so if my albino dies today I'm taking it to work to snap an X-ray and see if that's the problem. I'll see what i can get in the way of bacterial meds.

Just seems like it's so acute and then they die within 12 hours or so. :\


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

So update on this, my albino died while i was out. X-rayed him, not eating gravel. I was popping into BA's so i asked them their opinion, they said i probaly disrupted my cycle and my ammonia probably spiked.

So, went home and tested ammonia. It was in the "stress" range, but not in the "harmful" range, as I would expect, seeing as I've had 2 large fish die in there over the past couple of days. So while I was at BA's I picked up some E.M. Erythomycin, just in cast. 

Last night my ornate was looking a little lethargic. And that worried me, because if he dies i'm just giving up, but anyways, put in the erythromycin, he looks better today, and if he continues to improve, i'm going to do the full course of treatment with the erythromycin.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

yike omg...  I am sooo sorry.

Someone told me once the spinning or whurrling is sometimes an issue with nitrates or trites. I just cant recall.

A stirring up of the gravel might have released something? I could be way way off.. Did everything come back normal?


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Now in Fish Emergency!

My ornate was little slimy, like bacterial growth. He's the first one to show any outward signs, so I proceded with second treatment of Erythromycin and within 10 minutes all the other smaller fish started spazzing, so I quickly got them out of tank and into buckets of fresh water. (Might have overdosed em? Or related? I dunno)

So... If they survive the night, I'm going to pop into BA's with a water sample. 

Unless someone's near by that can lend me a hand tonight. 

Frankly, I'm at breaking point right now.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

Yike... D: I am sorry. I would do the water change for sure, my fingers crossed for ya.  I wish I could make it out tonight but my kiddo is sick :/


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Update

Well, I'm down to my 2 senegals, 1 delhezi and my pleco, Boris.,... who has been unphased through this whole friggen process. Did a major water change, put the polypterus back in the tank, guess it's a matter of seeing who lives through the night.

Only noteable interesting thing, when my ornate died... his whole belly turned pink. Still dunno whats going on, but for now. I give up, if they live, awesome, if they die, well, I'll disinfect the tank and eventually get more fish...

Also forgot to point out, I have 2 other tanks that are unaffected, which makes me doubt it's the water or the gravel since those fish are totally unaffected.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

sometimes when you move out the gravel it will throw the tank into a cycle as mentioned. I've noticed myself when I was changing out my soil based stuff it had a lot of anaerobic bubbles in it. I only changed out some of the stuff in the front since its planted.

I lost a good amount of fish from just doing that. I thought i was safe dealing with 90 gallons but it still wiped out a lot of my odessa barbs.

However, everyone else was fine... :/ not sure if that helps to any degree but i am sorry its happened to you.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Update
3 polypterus and pleco are all fine today. Was going by PJs so I took in a water sample and tests showed that ammonia and nitrate were slightly elevated, but far from harmful range, so in the end still have no answer.

For now, just going to see how these guys do over the next couple days. Hopefully my fish-mergency is done.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

If anyone's interested here's some pics. Maybe someone seen something like these. Caution, I made them links because they are deceased fish.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cynath/026.jpg This was the first one to go, stuck in a U-shape

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cynath/039.jpg White slime on the ornate before he died.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cynath/001.jpg Ornate post-mortem red belly.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

whoa.. the third looks like crazy septicemia.

I found this quote which will hopefully help..


> One of the most often-reported health problems that bichirs may experience is hemorrhagic septicemia. This malady may be bacterial or viral in origin and is often rapidly fatal if not treated. Symptoms include listlessness and loss of body control. Bichirs with this illness will often appear to have problems swimming normally and will sometimes float at the surface. A very typical sign is the appearance of reddish streaks or patches on the body. A good broad-spectrum antibiotic will often cure fish with this illness as long as it is bacterial in origin. Viral hemorrhagic septecemia is untreatable and is usually fatal.


http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22587

the above link is pretty helpful.

A side note, that common pleco might become a real pain in the ass. Just make sure its stays well fed and doesnt get into eating the slime off the remaining poly... I tried and retried with mine and he was either too agressive to my ornate and hog the food or chew the hell out of the thing.

Good luck, I hope everything stays calm for a good long while


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Yeah after seeing it on him, that was what i suspected as well. Though I did try treating the bacterial, which didn't help, so I really think it must have been viral. He was the only one who showed this and it only showed up after he died i think, or at least it wasn't as visible. 

I'm just going to not do anything with the tank for the rest of the month and then if everyone left is still good, i'll look into restocking it.


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## bigfishy (Jun 19, 2009)

Check your PH!


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

pH was 7.1

All the parameters were fine as previously mentioned.


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## BillD (Jun 5, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your losses. For what it's worth, my experience with Erthromyacin, is that is next to useless except to kill blue green algae (cynobacteria). EM is for gram positive bacteria while most fish diseases are gram negative. With the rapid onset of symptoms, I would guess that drugs likely would have made no difference.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes, well it was kind of an attempt at stabbing in the dark.

My question now is...

Should I treat the tank in case my other fish are infected, or just leave it and see what happens? If treating it, with what?


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Update, the senegals started being lethargic and hovering near top of tank, after 3 days, so i got a hospital tank and Myracin Two and am treating the remaining 4 fish. 

So far so good. 

I'm going going to leave them in there for a week or so and then get the water retested in the big tank before putting them back.


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## Ciddian (Mar 15, 2006)

fist at the top of the tank can be low O2 levels or high ammonia I think it is. Check your temps.. do a couple of checks during the day and see if your heater is being weird. 

IMHO, I wouldnt even bother treating the tank until you know exactly whats going on.. however since you have started, you might want to continue for the recommended time.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Update. Temp/Heather is fine, I kept the remaining fish in the hosp tank for a week and just left the 72 gal do it's thing. I really think it must have just started recycling or something.

On thuesday I got a few tetras and put them in there, they were guinea pigs and are still alive and well. So took another sample to big al's to be tested and they told me it was fine, so put remaining fish back into it plus a couple of new stock and so far everyone is good and happy.


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## Darkside (Sep 14, 2009)

Judging for the pictures of your dead/dying fish they appear to have gill damage, as a result of ammonia or otherwise in your tank. Perhaps something you did caused your tank to crash.
Edit: After rereading through your posts your tank definitely didn't cycle fast enough. Next time you move fish, fast them first and don't feed them for a week after you move to allow the bacteria to catch up.


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## KaylaBot (Jun 21, 2011)

Yeah it's stable now, no more deaths. I figured I probably screwed up the cycle with the move. :/ Ah well.


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