# New CRS/TB Tank



## Symplicity

Hello all 
I am just cycling my new tank. Hopefully I will have better luck with breeding CRS once the tank is ready in 2 or 3 months. Cannot wait 

50G tall 
27L ADA New Amazonia
3L ADA Africana
3L ADA New Amazonia Powder Type as a cap

PVC UGF made filter as per Aquarliam guide.

Eheim 2213 powering Ugf

Sponge filter































Made my own base substrate with Mosura BT9, Old Sea Mud, and Bioplus. Then layered the gravel on top with a nice finishing cap of Powder Type.

TDS 100
Ph < 6

Set my temp to 78, squeeZed my sponges from other tanks to help cycle. Will add afew guppies once I feel comfortable they won't die.

How long should I leave lights on? 5hrs a day? I also have a ton of aeration going on. I hope I have a winner with this tank.


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## randy

Wow, so vary Asian style tank set up. I'm not sure about the UGF though, even ADA suggests not to use UGF for their AS. From my experience, with UGF, these active substrate will lower your PH even more. With my Netlea with UGF, PH is still 5.3 after 6 months.


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## Symplicity

Hehe I plan on just adding Marimo balls and Moss Balls with lots of floaters.

I'm ok with 5.5ph I hope it doesn't drop too low... How are your shrimp doing in 5.2?


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## randy

Symplicity said:


> Hehe I plan on just adding Marimo balls and Moss Balls with lots of floaters.
> 
> I'm ok with 5.5ph I hope it doesn't drop too low... How are your shrimp doing in 5.2?


I only have A/S CRS in the PH5.3 tank, they breed okay.


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## camboy012406

holy cow that's a huge shrimp tank for this I think you need to wait 3 months to cycle


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## getochkn

Huge tank, better stock it huge so shrimp can even find each other to breed in and it's going to probably take months to get that ammonia out.

I'm not a huge fan of the UGF tube like that, as Randy said, it does suck the pH down large and I found wears it out fast. To each their own though, as anything in this hobby, whatever works for you, works for you.


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## Modo

That's a really thick layers of substrate. Does it need to be that thick?


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## Symplicity

I put abit more than what the Borneo Wild iPhone app suggested. Believe it was 28L

The UGF was just to try out and see the results as many ppl swear by it. 

Ya 3 months may look likely lol


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## arktixan

one sexy tank, 

too bad it's not the LONG version!

Cannot wait to see this beauty in action, and populated/planted


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## Symplicity

Update. So 10% water changes weekly with RO and I am really dissapointed with my pH!

pH is a measly 6.4! I was expecting sub 6.0 PH!

What a shame 

Added gupies and ram snails to help cycle. UGF working flawlessly for now.


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## Fishyfishyfishy

The UGF is great, the only downside to it is that the soil will break down very quick. So I have stopped using UGF with active soils, and my shrimps still breed just ask happily.


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## randy

Hmm... not sure what's going on with 6.4, although that's no indication of a good/bad shrimp tank. My new Amazonia tanks are all 6.0 or a tad lower. 

I wouldn't worry about the PH, I don't believe PH is the main thing in a good shrimp tank, anything lower than 7 should be good. And higher PH cycles faster too.


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## camboy012406

Symplicity said:


> Update. So 10% water changes weekly with RO and I am really dissapointed with my pH!
> 
> pH is a measly 6.4! I was expecting sub 6.0 PH!
> 
> What a shame
> 
> Added gupies and ram snails to help cycle. UGF working flawlessly for now.


ph 6.2-6.5 is excellent for crs


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## Symplicity

1 month update, tested params last night:

ph : < 6.0 (maybe I screwed up on my last test?)
tds: 120ppm
gh: 5
kh: 1

nitrate: 20
ammonia: 3.0-4.0
nitrite: forgot 

hopefully 4 weeks to go and it will be fully cycled?? Im still trying to do 10% water changes every week but it is ALOT OF RO WATER!

BTW, do you suggest I remove the 10x guppies in May and do massive water changes + let settle for 2 weeks more to remove any diseases in the water form the guppies before adding shrimp??


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## Ron

Symplicity said:


> BTW, do you suggest I remove the 10x guppies in May and do massive water changes + let settle for 2 weeks more to remove any diseases in the water form the guppies before adding shrimp??


Why do you need guppies? The Amazonia will supply more than enough ammonia to cycle your tank. There are instructions out there to cycle New Amazonia in a week but it involves several near 100% water changes.


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## Symplicity

Ron said:


> Why do you need guppies? The Amazonia will supply more than enough ammonia to cycle your tank. There are instructions out there to cycle New Amazonia in a week but it involves several near 100% water changes.


I dunno they outgrew their tank so I figured to put em in there. But your right I have an off the chart ammonia reading.


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## Ron

Symplicity said:


> I dunno they outgrew their tank so I figured to put em in there. But your right I have an off the chart ammonia reading.


I believe if your ammonia is too high, it impedes the growth of the bacteria. The bacteria have optimal conditions to multiply; if you're not in a rush leave it but if you are, get that ammonia into the optimal range.


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## randy

Ammonia 3 - 5ppm is good for NOB to grow, I believe it's over 5ppm you need to worry about. I also don't think you should have guppies in there, they are tough but no reason to make them suffer in 4ppm of NH3. Like Ron said, the ammonia from ADA is enough to cycle. You want to speed up you can add an airstone in there (or any way to increase the oxygen) and bump up the temperature to like 28.


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## lovevc

you can dump in some nitrification bacteria
that stuff will speed up the cycling process


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## Symplicity

I will remove the guppies once the old tank is ready. Retested everything

pH <6
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 15-20

TDS 140ppm

This is a weird cycle.. 4 weeks and counting/


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## randy

Symplicity said:


> I will remove the guppies once there old tank is ready. Retested everything
> 
> pH <6
> Ammonia 2.0
> Nitrite 0
> Nitrate 15-20
> 
> TDS 140ppm
> 
> This is a weird cycle.. 4 weeks and counting/


Nothing weird, you have a lot of substrate that leaches ammonia. I set a 10G up in mid December and didn't complete the cycle until mid February, that was a 2 months cycle for me. I would start adding plants in now if it's my tank.


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## Symplicity

i added some fast growing floaters afew weeks back. They still havent taken off yet. It was only until this weekend where I raised my light above the tank to properly distribute the light.

4 more weeks and I should be in the clear.


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## randy

Symplicity said:


> i added some fast growing floaters afew weeks back. They still havent taken off yet. It was only until this weekend where I raised my light above the tank to properly distribute the light.
> 
> 4 more weeks and I should be in the clear.


Do you only use RO for water change? Where are you going to get like 30G of RO? That always bothers me when a tank is ready ;-)


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## Symplicity

randy said:


> Do you only use RO for water change? Where are you going to get like 30G of RO? That always bothers me when a tank is ready ;-)


water changes are weekly and almost 10-15% only. I try to fill up 15L jugs I have every day to accumulate the RO for the weekly change  Water changes are with RO. I messed up by using tap on initial fillup though!

The dirt that builds up on the glass walls... im going to leave it and just clean the front glass. Pretty sure its just dust/soil debris... also any advise on growing more beneficial bacteria? I try to dose BT-90, some bioplus, fluvic acid, and mineral powder on the substrate to promote more bacteria. that along with a temp of 24-28 degrees should get the ball in optimal range for my inhabitants in 4 more weeks. (once everything is 0/0/0, gh 5, TDS 130)


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## randy

Symplicity, I meant the last WC before shrimps in. I normally do a 100% (or as close as possible) to get rid of the nitrate which normally ends up around 80ppm or more due to the leached ammonia from ADA.


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## Scotmando

Just a Q. 
Why can't you cycle a shrimp tank in tap water until parameters are right & then switch to RO?


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## bettaforu

So not to hijack this thread, but an update. I setup one of my remaining 8 gallon tanks on Sunday with Netlea soil, a sponge I had sitting in another tank so bacteria is still good, piece of dragon lace rock and some java moss.

Tested the water after everything was in tank....PH 7, GH 8, KH 6. Yesterday I tested again, PH 6.5, GH 4, KH 2, NO ammonia. I popped in couple of my older CRS to see how they would fair....no problem. 

This am when I woke up all are doing well, they have survived the 24 hours, so Ive added some more shrimps. If all is still OK by 48 hours I will add my Taiwans. I prefer this soil as it seems to buffer very well, with little or NO ammonia. I did use RO water for this tank.


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## randy

I do use tap to fill the tank for the first time and don't normally do WC until it's cycled. Then I use only RO for WC.

Anna, Netlea CRS version leaches very minimum ammonia. IIRC, it's about 1ppm at most. With the super low PH it brings the water, that amount of ammonia is pretty harmless. I wouldn't add shrimps in just after a few days but I guess your experiment shows it's okay. Thanks for sharing.


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## PerryW

Although not as experienced with shrimp, I used to use this method of moving the sponge filter to another tank some of the water and there you go. Don't know about high end shrimps but it worked with sensitive Africans.


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## Symplicity

So my Ammonia is around 0.5 - 1.0 ... thinking 1 more week (total 6 week cycle time) and do a massive 80% water change with pure RO. (already started filling up jugs of RO every day )

I hope to re-mineralize to 120 TDS with a GH of 4-6

Wait few days to see if there is anymore ammonia leech and add its first inhabitants!!!!! going to add some lower grade CBS i have and see how they do.
aiming for 0/0/0 and will not add until I get those #s.

Any suggestions on how to build a nice green tank wall?? I have very little growth on my glass. Try keeping lights on 10+hrs a day but not much seems to be happening... I dose BT-9, some BioPlus, and some Rich Water every week to promote biological growth.

Any advise in the final weeks coming? 
THANKS


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## bettaforu

Shrimps are all OK...even had one molt already! 
You KNOW I wouldn't risk my Taiwans if I wasn't 100% sure it was an ok thing to do.


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## Symplicity

Pic update. Pretty good build up of biofilm on front glass that I will probably clean. I really want it on sides and back  I will buy a glass feeding dish when I find 1 at dollar store. I will also make it pretty hopefully





















Sorry Im colour blind is that 1.0 or 2.0 ammonia?


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## tijuanatoad

That is 2.0 ppm


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## Symplicity

camboy012406 said:


> holy cow that's a huge shrimp tank for this I think you need to wait 3 months to cycle


lol I think you are right! 3 months looks more appropriate


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## xriddler

great time to put in more plants though lol gonna get some really lush looking plants if you do


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## Symplicity

0/0/10  Once I remove my guppies and large water change the Nitrates should get down to 0...Waiting on my 2 additional sponge filters to arrive in the mail. I hope by next week I can start moving in my CRS 

I purchased 2x LARGE SPONGES! Ideally for 150L! These guys are gonna be a bacterial haven! 

for my tank im going to have:

-1x UGF connected to cannister (with spray-bar)
-2x Double Sponge Filters (sides of tank)
-1x LARGE Double Sponge Filter (back centre of tank)

Lots of aeration and beneficial bacteria growth going on in here!


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## Symplicity

Very Strange! My gH is @ 2 (re-tested 3x)
My TDS is around 150ppm. I added more drops of my Fluval Minerals and bumped my gH to 3 but my TDS is now close to 200! The heck!?

I tested my main CRS tank and it is 130ppm with a gH of 4

Whats going on? I remineralize with Fluval Minerals for both tanks............. im going to search if Carbon in my filter can remove gH....


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## lovevc

i dont think tds is that important.. cuz a lot of factors can change the reading.
200-300tds will be fine


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## camboy012406

let the lights on for 10hours a day for sure it will help to cycle faster.


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## Symplicity

Got my massive sponge filers in from TAIPEI  Ill take pics soon!

*sorry wasnt Korea


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## randy

Symplicity said:


> Got my massive sponge filers in from Korea  Ill take pics soon!


Would be interested to see too, I love sponge filters, had 10 and got 8 more. I bought one of the new ones at AI two weeks ago, that one comes with a 3w pump and the sponges are HUGE. Really love how it works in the tank. But the bigger the better ;-)


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## Symplicity

Issue is they don't fit nicely on my air pumps!! Hole is too large.... Gonna try make 3/4" PVC with holes in it as replacement stems... Might just design my own custom sponge filter!


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## Symplicity

It's a mess but I will get the floaters in order. Middle filter was the initial seed filter and will be replaced with the massive sponges tmrw once I do a custom filter


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## bettaforu

I made mine from cut square of poret foam glued to a tile and a piece of plastic tubing down the middle with airstone inserted...see my pic on my 15 gallon post.

You could customize your own to fit any tank. I DO like the weighted sapora ones though cause you can adjust them to whatever height you want, and most sponges will fit around them. Ive used the weighted parts with my own cut to size foam piece.

Bet you can't wait to get something in that tank now 

I put 2 shrimps in mine yesterday, so we'll see if they survived.


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## Symplicity

Just picked up 3/4" PVC and fittings.. Gonna make a custom sponge filter for these massive sponges! 

Pics to follow tonight! Not sure how to connect the airline with PVC.... Doin just drop it down with an air stone? Or should I just drill a hole and stuff the line in and seal around it? Is the air stone better than just the airline connected directly into the pipe?

Edit: How necessary is the air stone vs directly inserting the airline?


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## Symplicity

Air stone or tube straight into shaft? 24hr for the sealant to dry!! This thing is a beast! It's really big!


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## camboy012406

nice diy!!


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## Symplicity

DIY Ugf and sponge filter  never felt so handy

Mistake 1... I used screws to attach the suction cups... they might rust ... eek!

Question..Do I need to add an airstone inside OR is direct airline OK? Any performance gain using an airstone?


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## Symplicity

Ooo boy!


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## matti2uude

The smaller bubbles from an air stone would move more water. The air stone may also block the tube too much. The suction cups should've been force fit or you could've used stainless steel screws so they wouldn't rust.


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## Symplicity

Gonna tweak the design and use 45 degree elbows so they span sideways rather than forward.

I also just confirmed they are stainless  they looked special to begin with.


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## Jaysan

holy...those look massive, LOL


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## matti2uude

How big are those sponges you got? I got two sponge filters today from Frank and the sponges are 5"x4.75". I couldn't believe how big they were.


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## Symplicity

They are 4.92" x 5.9" for about $11 (for the pair, including shipping) 
+ $18 of material to build the sponge filter component with PVC (had to buy 10' of PVC though! for $10, or else it would be like $7  )


I picked up the 45 degree elbows. Will alter design tonight and upload some more photos 
Will cleanup the hardware also to make the tank visually appealing


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## Symplicity

Strange my nitrates are high.... Did a pretty good wc today too....

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 80 
Gh 3
Kh 0
Ph <6
tds 145ppm


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## Symplicity

Any suggestions on how to lower my Nitrates? I tested my RO and there is no Nitrate reading.

I have done as much water changes as possible in the last 3 days and have not seen any improvement! I got quite abit of floaters and ton of moss.......

any other suggestions? I Can add more floaters, but they seem to turn yellowish ...


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## Fishfur

Nitrates I'm not sure.. WC should have taken care of that. But as for airstones in a sponge filter, I am a big fan of this ! I find it works better, is much quieter as well, and if you can get those new plastic air stones, they can be cleaned and used over and over, so no issues with the composite degrading over time, which it does.

Given a choice of air stone or no airstone, I'd go for the stone every time.. it's made a big difference to the filters. Those that have no space for a stone inside annoy the heck out of me.


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## matti2uude

What light do you have on this tank?


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## Symplicity

matti2uude said:


> What light do you have on this tank?


2 bulb Odessya T5H0 80W? (not too sure)


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## Symplicity

ugh.. got approx 40L of RO ready to do a fairly large W/C....Hope I can take it down to an orange level. The readings are currently blood red colour.

30L/190L = 15% W/C LOOOL!


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## Symplicity

Update:

Been dosing 5x Prime and did a solid 20% W/C (in rev order ... its sorta in the orange tiers now (vs BLOOD RED)

Maybe 2 or 3 more 15%ers


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## Jaysan

5x prime? 
....what does that mean?


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## Symplicity

Jaysan said:


> 5x prime?
> ....what does that mean?


5x the dosage

Also plan on adding a Purigen pack and some Matrix to my canister... + another 15% w/c this weekend.


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## Jaysan

What is yout TDS at? and why are you adding 5x the dose of Prime?
And by Prime, you mean the water conditioner?


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## Symplicity

Jaysan said:


> What is yout TDS at? and why are you adding 5x the dose of Prime?
> And by Prime, you mean the water conditioner?


Goes between 90 and 150ppm (when I do 15% RO W/C it is sitting now @ 135ppm

Yes Prime conditioner. The theory was that it detoxifies it and bonds with Nitrate and helps biological media break it down into Nitrogen gas...as per research. Even Seachem confirmed but cannot explain why.


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## Jaysan

Symplicity said:


> Goes between 90 and 150ppm (when I do 15% RO W/C it is sitting now @ 135ppm
> 
> Yes Prime conditioner. The theory was that it detoxifies it and bonds with Nitrate and helps biological media break it down into Nitrogen gas...as per research. Even Seachem confirmed but cannot explain why.


wonder if thats causing such high nitrates


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## Symplicity

Jaysan said:


> wonder if thats causing such high nitrates


issue was happening before I tried to remedy it with Prime. (no Prime was ever added before the issue)


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## Jaysan

Your running undergravel filter?
Try cleaning out the filter


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## Symplicity

Last batch of shrimp being transferred 

they are all doing really well! grazing and exploring.


final params

0/0/5
gh 4
kh 0
ph <6
TDS 145ppm
temp 19*/66F <no heater ... is this too cold to breed? Weather is getting hotter so i doubt Ill have to go buy one.


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## shrimpzoo

A good temp range for CRS is 64-78 so you are in the safe zone.

CRS like the water temperature on the cooler side anyways, so no need for a heater @ all. People in the US always frantically try keep the temperatures down in the hot summer season for their shrimp lol.


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## Symplicity

So to update you all the shrimp have settled in nicely. I have found 10+ molt shells everywhere. They are all very active and exploring ever inch of the tank.

Question though. I have yet to see any CRS have a saddle. (lower grades are easy to tell) As you all remember my CRS have stopped breeding for close to 6 months prob Decemeberish....

I am wondering if they have become infertile or they will redevelop eggs once they settle again. (im not talking about them berrying)


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## bettaforu

my Blue Bolt mamma stopped from Jan, she's just gotten berried now after being in the newly cycled Amazonia tank for 1 week.  

They do stop for a while, just give them time.


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## Symplicity

bettaforu said:


> my Blue Bolt mamma stopped from Jan, she's just gotten berried now after being in the newly cycled Amazonia tank for 1 week.
> 
> They do stop for a while, just give them time.


nice. thats great news knowing im not the only one. My BKK looks almost like a full adult now and should start breeding any time now


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## bettaforu

Taiwans tend to be slower than CRS etc. They are also extremely hard to sex and even see eggs on them. Luckily with BBs you can see the eggs underneath especially first thing in the morning when they tend to be paler in color, so the eggs show up more.

I could never tell when my BKK mamma was berried, the only way was when she was up on the glass and I could see up underneath her shell...then I saw the eggs.

I know my 1 bar BKK male is the daddy this time and I have the breeder box already set up for her closer to the time, about the last week, that way she won't be so stressed when she goes in there.


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## Symplicity

Hey All,
I was given some great ideas at the meeting and after 3 hrs of work lol here are some updates.

Ideas Implemented
1. Modified the large double sponge filters to connect to a 2nd eheim 2213.

2. Added more biomedia. I think there is like 5L of Matrix and DeNitrate 

3. Added back my Inline heater as temp was 19degrees. aiming for 22-24 degrees. 74-75F (slowly raising it over next 3-4 days)


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## Symplicity

Going to take some advise and bump the temp from 22 to 23-24.. I will give it one more month before I start dropping the females in a breeder box with my BKK and add some Eros directly into the breeder box. 

No berries yet. They are all super healthy. Colours are super strong and they are all very active. Have not had a death in over a month. (only 1 death since moving to this new tank)

Feeding a mix of Mosura CRS Speciality, Excel, Gravidas, and fresh blanched spinach. Very little piece every other day for 50+ shrimp. My BKK is now huge and a full adult. 

Water params are pretty good. TDS 170, GH 5, PH <6, KH 0/1, 0/0/0. I change water with RO remineralized to 100 (realistically 120ppm if it settles) maybe 5-10% wc a week. 

Hope they berry soon. I try to not change anything and keep things stable. Only thing will be the temp over the weekend.

@Randyl: At the shrimp meet you mentioned shrimp in poor conditions will not grow. I have 2 or 3 shrimp that have been stuck in juvie size for 5+months! My BKK easily outgrew them as I used my BKK as a baseline. They have not grown at all! I really do have some dwarf shrimp 

W/C Process = 15L jug of RO water that has been sitting for 48hrs+. Remineralize with Salty Shrimp GH+ to 100ppm TDS. Add a scoop of BT-9, RichWater, and Old Sea Mud. I then slow stream 15L using an airline to perform the WC.


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## randy

Symplicity, sometimes they just take time to get into the breeding mood. As long as they are healthy they will breed. 

About the stunts, here is what I have observed,

- Shrimps do grow slower in lower temperature.

- You see this a lot more in TB babies than Crystals. And most of these TBs will die unfortunately, even when they look very active/healthy otherwise.

- I find more of these in my tanks in the basement, even with controlled temperature @ 22C-23C and lights on timers for 9-10 hrs/day. Not many in the tanks upstairs. I'm not sure if it's the nature light (UV?!) that is making the difference, I'm going to do some experiment on this topic when my shrimp room is built (hopefully this weekend).

- Some shrimps grow slower and take longer to mature, but for Crystals I've found that they may take 5 months to grow to sub-adults but I then see significant growth in the 6th months and they are like on steroid in that month. (i.e. be patient ;-)

Good luck and I'm sure by September you'll see big changes, I don't have high hope in summer myself either ;-)


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## Symplicity

I noticed my lights on/off pattern has been sporatic. I really turn the lights on manually when I come home and off before I go to bed.......

Wondering what the best time is to set a timer.... 8AM to 4PM? 

or is it bad to have it from 4PM - 12PM? Day light aint that bright in my basement...


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## Jaysan

Symplicity said:


> I noticed my lights on/off pattern has been sporatic. I really turn the lights on manually when I come home and off before I go to bed.......
> 
> Wondering what the best time is to set a timer.... 8AM to 4PM?
> 
> or is it bad to have it from 4PM - 12PM? Day light aint that bright in my basement...


To save on energy, most of my tanks lights are on from 7pm - 2am


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## Symplicity

Ya ill just setup my timer to that time aswell. Just been lazy to program my timer.


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## Fishfur

Once you get the timer working, you will wonder why it took you so long .


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## Symplicity

so I bumped the temp to 24C. Did a nice slow 15% w/c overnight. 

Shrimp went crazy. Probably one molted. Hoping for the best. Hoping by August to have them start to berry again. Or I may just think they have become infertile from the Prime and poor water quality they were in for many months before setting up the new tank.


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## Ron

Symplicity said:


> so I bumped the temp to 24C. Did a nice slow 15% w/c overnight.
> 
> Shrimp went crazy. Probably one molted. Hoping for the best. Hoping by August to have them start to berry again. Or I may just think they have become infertile from the Prime and poor water quality they were in for many months before setting up the new tank.


I'm interested to see how the temp change to 75°F does for you, I've always kept mine at 70°F and reproduction has been fairly slow.


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## Symplicity

On average, how long would you guys say shrimp feel comfortable breeding when moved to a new home. I always remember it taking close to 2 months before they berry... Anyone ever do a study on this?


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## bettaforu

In my experience its about that if not more. I moved mine to the newly setup tank with Amazonia and about 4 weeks after they were in there, my blue bolt got berried. I moved her to the breeder box too soon and she dropped them. Then the snow white and golden both got berried right after that.

I now have 4 mammas in waiting 

They need to feel comfortable with the surroundings and PH etc, once they settle down they will be breeding in no time. Watch for erratic swimming of the males, cause that means female hormones are in the water, and many get berried soon after. Also molts are a good indication that someone will be berried soon.

Good luck


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## Symplicity

more pics if anyone is following. moss is growing like weeds.


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## coldmantis

bettaforu said:


> In my experience its about that if not more. I moved mine to the newly setup tank with Amazonia and about 4 weeks after they were in there, my blue bolt got berried. I moved her to the breeder box too soon and she dropped them. Then the snow white and golden both got berried right after that.
> 
> I now have 4 mammas in waiting
> 
> They need to feel comfortable with the surroundings and PH etc, once they settle down they will be breeding in no time. Watch for erratic swimming of the males, cause that means female hormones are in the water, and many get berried soon after. Also molts are a good indication that someone will be berried soon.
> 
> Good luck


Any reason why you move the berried shrimp to a breeder box? I used to move my guppies to a breeder box when they are prego and I get near 100% survival rate. I been have very bad luck with breeding CRS/CBS for the pass 2+ years and then finally gave up for about a year only to have the kind and generous laurahmm convince me to give it one final shot.


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## bettaforu

I can see what babies are being born to each mamma when I have them in a breeder box. It also makes the females feel more secure, without being constantly hassled by males, or having to fight for food as they get individually fed.

I can feed the babies better for the 1st week or 2 of their lives before transferring them into the main tank from the box, and this gives them a better start. The box is connected to the main tank so the water is the same parameters.

I raised 9 bkk babies to 5 weeks old in a breeder box in Jan 

I just did this with my golden female, and she dropped 8 babies for me in the box. After a week these babies went into the tank and are all growing well in there now. I have 4 snow whites, a couple of CBS/CRS, and a lovely Mosura crown red baby from this drop.

This same female is berried again along with my BB so they will both be going into the box very soon, the other 2 females should be giving birth in the next week.


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## bettaforu

One of the reasons baby shrimps don't make it is they stay in the same spot where they are born...ie: under a rock, in the moss, or floating plants for the first week or two.

IF there isn't enough biofilm close to them to eat from they will just starve to death, and this is why a lot of hobbyists don't ever see the babies again.

They also have to deal with harassing adult shrimps/snails/scuds/planaria etc etc in a main tank, all of which is very stressful to a baby shrimp, and often they cannot tolerate this! 

I know lots of hobbyists just leave it to nature, and its not an ideal situation to have all berried females have babies in a breeder box, but for specific shrimps like Taiwans, which is what I breed, I like to see what each mamma produces, and give them the best start in life I can, as they are definitely on the finicky side.


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## coldmantis

Do you feed the newborns in the breeder box differently? ie different foods from adults(powder form instead of whole), more often/less often.


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## bettaforu

don't want to hog the poster's thread here  but here's the answer.

I feed powder foods like earthworm powder, gravidas, spirulina, Mosura shrimpton which I mix with the tank water and squirt into the boxes. Every other day I change it up so they get something different.


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## Symplicity

Shrimp added: 05-24-2013

Almost approaching 2 months lol ah


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## bettaforu

Alex have you tried BW dance or Mosura Eros? I used the Dance on my Taiwans when they weren't breeding and now have 4 females in waiting!

Just a thought.


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## Symplicity

Yes I used Eros.
They go absolutely crazy with 20 drops in high flow area... no berries. :S


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## bettaforu

I had the same experience last time with Eros, so I went with Dance instead and found only 8 drops in the tank did the trick. I saw at least 2 molts the next day, then one of my females was berried (didn't find her till a few days later cause she was hiding) You might want to give the Dance a try!


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## Symplicity

Ill wait till September and see what happens. I figure if they dont breed by then with stable perfect params then my shrimp have become infertile/developed a complex by living with old tank syndrome for many months.

May just get new stock if nothing happens by then. (probably cheaper to drop $25 on new stock than Dance)


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## Symplicity

Fed some stinging nettle today. They went crazy over it.


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## Symplicity

Done! It may be low grade but I am sure this is just the beginning.
Thanks everyone for the recommendations. Hopefully over the next few weeks they all get berried. The females have all gotten fat, hoping for the best.


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## bettaforu

where there's one there could be more, or its the first of many


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## Symplicity

bettaforu said:


> where there's one there could be more, or its the first of many


Hoping for high survival of babies in 3-4 weeks. pH is fairly low < 6.0 cant be 100%.

This is going to be a fun summer.


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## randy

Told ya it would happen. Show us the tank in 2 months ;-)


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## Symplicity

Spotted 2 berried females now  Either summer or the fresh stinging nettle did the trick


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## Symplicity

4 berried. One of which is my higher grade CBS :O My BKK is getting fat too. 100% female BKK. Maybe she will get berried any week now also.


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## Symplicity

So within the last 2 week I made a few changes and the berrying started. Not sure if it is related or just a coincidence. 

1. I began feeding fresh stinging nettle leaves. 
2. Added a timer for consistent on/off as sometimes I would forget and they would get no light for 24hrs or forget to turn off and have light for 24 hrs 
3. Fed fresh veg like zucchini and baby spinach. 

Hope that helps someone too..or ...
1. it could just be summer
2. its a new tank and they needed 2mths to settle


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## shrimpzoo

Where did you get stinging nettle leaves?


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## bettaforu

Congrats on the new berries ( this a new kind of shrimp fruit...newberries LOL) It takes a little while for them to settle but once they do then its fun time in the tank. 

I have stinging nettle plants available! I grow them.


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## mr_bako

**



Symplicity said:


> So within the last 2 week I made a few changes and the berrying started. Not sure if it is related or just a coincidence.
> 
> 1. I began feeding fresh stinging nettle leaves.
> 2. Added a timer for consistent on/off as sometimes I would forget and they would get no light for 24hrs or forget to turn off and have light for 24 hrs
> 3. Fed fresh veg like zucchini and baby spinach.
> 
> Hope that helps someone too..or ...
> 1. it could just be summer
> 2. its a new tank and they needed 2mths to settle


you definitely are doing something right!!


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## Symplicity

not gonna lie 90% of my females are berried now lol! within next 3 weeks i expect like 70+ babies :O hope they all do well without a breeder box.

should be enough biofilm..


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## mr_bako

Symplicity said:


> not gonna lie 90% of my females are berried now lol! within next 3 weeks i expect like 70+ babies :O hope they all do well without a breeder box.
> 
> should be enough biofilm..


hey did you need those test tubes still?
I got 2 i can spare ya.

Tommy


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## randy

Congratulations again ;-)


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## Symplicity

mr_bako said:


> hey did you need those test tubes still?
> I got 2 i can spare ya.
> 
> Tommy


Ya man, hopefully I can make it down to Scarb soon


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## mr_bako

*Tubes*



Symplicity said:


> Ya man, hopefully I can make it down to Scarb soon


Want me to mail it to you? Lol.


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## Fishfur

Anna, are stinging nettle leaves useful dried also, or is it best to have them fresh ? No idea where to find them around here, other than dried ones in tea bags.


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## Symplicity

Fishfur said:


> Anna, are stinging nettle leaves useful dried also, or is it best to have them fresh ? No idea where to find them around here, other than dried ones in tea bags.


I've tried both fresh and dried. Dried takes 1-2 days before they start eating em, but they both get get devoured.


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## Symplicity

mr_bako said:


> Want me to mail it to you? Lol.


lol I want to see your store one day. Im in no rush for the tubes. When your left with only 1, you tend to be alot more careful with it


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## bettaforu

I just blanch a fresh one and pop it in the tank with something to weigh it down with. It does take them a day or so to figure out its for eating, but once they do it gets consumed completely....either by the shrimps or the cocopeds.

I have a few plants Ive been growing over the Summer, but they've gotten
too much rain and not enough sun right now, so I don't think I will be selling them. Im going to take off all the leaves that are good and freeze them.


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## Symplicity

BKK is berried


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## Fishfur

What's a cocoped ? I'll have to get a box of nettle tea bags I guess and try those. Unless I can find some whole leaves at a health food store maybe. Never looked so I don't know if they come that way.


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## bettaforu

Scuds...aka cocopeds, they look like seed shrimps...harmless but annoying and eat anything plant based including shrimp food.


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## Fishfur

Just curious,'cause I've seen or heard of copepods, gammarus, [aka scuds, aka amphipods], and ostracods, which is the biological name for seed shrimp, but not cocopeds.

Tried to look it up but mr. google hasn't heard of them either.. sure you don't mean copepods or amphipods ? I've only heard the term scud applied to the amphipods.. which I don't doubt for a minute would eat a shrimplet if they could catch one. They are opportunistic after all, even if they mostly eat detritus, a baby shrimp in the wrong place would surely make a nice change in diet for them.

My scuds mostly get eaten by the fishes.. though they rarely catch them all, they sure keep the numbers down.


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## Symplicity

expecting first batch to hatch any day now. Its been exactly 3 weeks 21 days.


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## Symplicity

Eggs still have not dropped since July 17 ..... @ 24C temp.

Both my CRS A and CBS SSS are holding for 25 days now. :s Maybe I will have a surprise tonight when I get home.


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## Symplicity

28 days and still no drop! 100% sure its the same shrimp, eggs look pretty transparent now. (gone from red > black> transparent)

I can see the eyes I think.


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## Symplicity

nvm they dropped tonight found 4 or 5 shrimplets chilling in the moss.  lets see some pass the 2 week mark. gonna be extra super careful with w/c. just gonna slow top off this month.


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## randy

Great news, congratulations !


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## mr_bako

*congrats*



Symplicity said:


> nvm they dropped tonight found 4 or 5 shrimplets chilling in the moss.  lets see some pass the 2 week mark. gonna be extra super careful with w/c. just gonna slow top off this month.


thats great! Your a father!


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## Symplicity

weird cant seem to find any anymore... :S


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## mr_bako

*no worries*



Symplicity said:


> weird cant seem to find any anymore... :S


dont worry
babies hide very well after molting.

i noticed this too, they will disappear and come back bigger !

i thought most of mine died too


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## bettaforu

newborns hide in the soil, under rocks, inside moss, anywhere they can fit until they are finally old enough to venture out with the big guys....don't worry


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## Symplicity

yooooo! I found the weirdest shrimp ever! It is like 90% covered in red! very skinny white lines. Its incredible. Sorta looks like tiger stripes.


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## randy

I have a hard time telling red king kong of that size, but it is possible. Some of these do turn back to regular CRS though but there's hope. Good luck !


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## Symplicity

Im thinking this is just a nice looking C grade? even though I've never had a C grade shrimp in the tank :S


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## randy

If anyone has a pair of such c grade with 90% or more red coverage. I'd trade with a pair of SSS for them.


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## Symplicity

The guys are starting to explore other areas of the tank  2 clutches have dropped. Another 8 or 9 to go. 

Any idea what the critical dates are for survival? first 2 weeks?


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## randy

Congrates !! My experience, baby shrimps would disappear at 2 days, 2 weeks, and 2 months. After that it's more or less a smooth sailing ;-)


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## Symplicity

Update on mystery shrimp


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## randy

Very interesting, probably a WR baby? If not, in my opinion, it's even better.


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## mr_bako

*Congrats*

White usually sets in a bit after. 
Red is predominant at first 

Who's the parent?


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## Symplicity

update, just got back from vacation. I can easily count 70+ babies in the tank  many have grown quite big as they have reach probably the 3+week mark. 

ill take some pics soon


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## Symplicity

Updated with some pics. I have counted over 120 babies so far.

Have also added some TBs. everyone is doing awesome. My BKK is on her 2nd batch of babies now


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## randy

Where do I click the "like" button?　Fantastic !!


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## Symplicity

200+ young swimming around and like 10 berried mammas.

wonder if it will reach 500 mark. Going to need to setup a cull tank soon! But I know some of the lower quality ones are michlings


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## randy

Symplicity said:


> 200+ young swimming around and like 10 berried mammas.
> 
> wonder if it will reach 500 mark. Going to need to setup a cull tank soon! But I know some of the lower quality ones are michlings


You need more tanks, welcome to MTS club ;-)


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## Symplicity

I got a 60cm Fire tank thats been vacant since I setup this new tank.

Thinking of buying 9L of ADA and making a 2nd shrimp tank... BUT I do not want to drop $100 on a new filter  

ADA $40, 2213 $90, by the time im done theres another $200 gone  Maybe in December ill look into it.


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## Symplicity

whats up with this CBS it looks abit different the head... I can't figure out why


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## randy

Likely a mischling, I find some of hte mischling get very intense colour in black and/or white. I tried to breed those with others showing the same feature but didn't get anything special.


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## Symplicity

My sponge filters have not been cleaned in months. Do you think I should squeeze them out? Is there any risk of not cleaning them for so long besides slow down flow?


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## randy

Symplicity said:


> My sponge filters have not been cleaned in months. Do you think I should squeeze them out? Is there any risk of not cleaning them for so long besides slow down flow?


I need an answer to this too ;-)

I don't do frequent water change because I'm lazy and because I get more problems when I do more water changes (makes sense, eh?) However, I have a pretty stable tank of Blue Bolts, the shrimps have been doing great. Within 1.5 months of setting it up with 50 juvi size BB, over 5 are berried at the moment. So I cleaned the sponge filter a week ago and one BB died the next day.... I don't faint when I see dead shrimp no matter the value, and I do have over 50 BB in that tank so one death is just acceptable to me in 1.5 month... but it had to happen the day after I cleaned the sponge filter (which acts as the 1st stage prefilter for my eheim 2013 on a 20G, I do have a proper prefilter on that tank as well). So, I don't have the answer... I will try cleaning my shadow panda tank tonight to see what will happen.


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## eatmysox

How are you cleaning your sponge filter randy? I sometimes squeeze mine out of I do a small water change and use the waste water but never clean it out with new water. I did once and lost most of a shrimp tank. I constantly have young shrimp all over my sponge filters grazing on little bits of gunk. 

Sent from my tube on the lazy river


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## Symplicity

I have 4 sponge double sponge filters. Never had an issue with cleaning them in tank water (from the W/C ie. water I syphoned out of tank)

Maybe trick is not cleaning all of them at once? Or make sure they arent your primary filtration for the tank?

I will leave them for another month just to ensure survival of the babies.


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## eatmysox

That could be very true. 

Sent from my tube on the lazy river


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## randy

eatmysox said:


> How are you cleaning your sponge filter randy? I sometimes squeeze mine out of I do a small water change and use the waste water but never clean it out with new water. I did once and lost most of a shrimp tank. I constantly have young shrimp all over my sponge filters grazing on little bits of gunk.
> 
> Sent from my tube on the lazy river


I do it the same way. I don't lose shrimps every time I clean the sponge filter. Also, these sponge filters are used as prefilter (to prevent shrimplets from being sucked into the filter), so they aren't the main filtration.

I'm wondering if my loss was due to the fact I don't do WC enough and the water has been very stable, thus any change would be significant as shrimps are used to a very constant environment.

I'll clean up a few more tonight.... wish me luck.


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## Symplicity




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## Symplicity

i need a dslr  try to find the WR in 1st pic


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## Symplicity

O and I found a baby shadow panda  hope it lives







my first baby Taiwan from mischlings


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## Jaysan

nicely done bro!


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## matti2uude

Very nice!


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## randy

Congratulations !!


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## Symplicity

Hey all, just an update.

confirmed the following
-shadow panda
-bkk extreme (very blue all over, no bars so far)
-2x WR with 2 short bars 

jeeze. i couldnt believe it when i saw them 1 after another.

Hope they will all make it. Iphone just cant focus. These TBs are either from my BKK x CRS. I have had Shadow Panda babies a year back born in my tank but none survived. Guessing the TB gene is kickin in my CRS/CBS.


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## Symplicity

Symplicity said:


> Hey all, just an update.
> 
> confirmed the following
> -shadow panda
> -bkk extreme (very blue all over, no bars so far)
> -2x WR with 2 short bars
> 
> jeeze. i couldnt believe it when i saw them 1 after another.
> 
> Hope they will all make it. Iphone just cant focus. These TBs are either from my BKK x CRS. I have had Shadow Panda babies a year back born in my tank but none survived. Guessing the TB gene is kickin in my CRS/CBS.










baby wr


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## FlyingHellFish

What your water parameters? Do you use RO water?


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## Symplicity

FlyingHellFish said:


> What your water parameters? Do you use RO water?


<6pH, 180ppm TDS, gh6, kh 1, 23 Celsius, 0/0/15

RO all the way.

Edit: 23*


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## coldmantis

33c You sure you don't mean 23c, do you remineralize? Mixing r/o with tap already gives me 6gh and 0-1kh.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Symplicity

Symplicity said:


> <6pH, 180ppm TDS, gh6, kh 1, 23 C, 0/0/15
> 
> RO all the way.


 23C my bad


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## Splak

wow... awesome colony going on! Grats.

Just set mine up a month ago, hopefully it looks half as good as yours!


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## Symplicity

damn havent seen my TB babies in over a week 

Next time i spot some I will only do RO top-offs no W/Cs for a month!


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## Symplicity

hey all, been awhile since last update.

Tank is going good. Im fairly sure the TB babies have died. Its a shame its the 2nd time finding shadow pandas out of my CRS/CBS. Theres some michlings genes in the tank for sure.

Anyhow... yeah tank keeps growing, but running into plant growth problems on the surface of the water. It grows so fast and cleaning the plants always is difficult as baby shrimplets are always hiding in them. 

Anyhow, pics to follow i guess.


My BB should be at breeding age now (got really big), will put them in a intank breeder box with my BKK who constantly berries.  Maybe I will get lucky.


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## Symplicity

Just another update. I keep seeing TB babies but I cant get them to grow up  They disappear and every now and then I see new TB babies.

Ive put the BB and BKK in an intake breeder box so hopefully the next batch of TBs I can monitor.

My nitrates have been building up for awhile now. I will have to clean-out my filters in a few weeks when I get time. Pretty sure the higher nitrates are causing the TBs to die.

Sub <6.0, w/c done slowly and TDS swings kept between 5-10tds after the WC.

Only culprit left is Nitrates.


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## mr_bako

*problems*

hey alex,

why dont u give me a run down of your entire setup.

from substrate, water, decor, additives.

/nitrates isnt a big problem, my main tank here in my shop was breeding like crazy at 80ppm of nitrates and all the babies were alive.


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## Symplicity

hey tommy,

0/0/40, <6.0ph, 150TDS, KH 1, GH 6, 22.5C.

ADA Amazonia + Africana , moss balls, and java moss

RO Water with Salty Shrimp to remineralize, Mosura Rich Water for humic acid, BT-9 for bacteria. Remineralize WC water to 100PPM which keeps my tank at 150ppm. WC using airline hose. Tank is really big so very little temp/tds swings.

no decor besides pvcs tubing, sponges, moss balls, java moss.

my CRS and CBS are growing up fine to adulthood, even SSS. Issue seems specific to TB babies. Ill post some photos in 5mins


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## Symplicity

pics attached.


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## Symplicity

Filtration is sponge filter x2, 2213 with prefilter + sponge filtered intake, ugf hooked to a 2213.


havent cleaned the media out in a loooong time...next to do in april.


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## mr_bako

Symplicity said:


> Filtration is sponge filter x2, 2213 with prefilter + sponge filtered intake, ugf hooked to a 2213.
> 
> havent cleaned the media out in a loooong time...next to do in april.


your plants dont look so good? 
how often are you feeding them?


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## Symplicity

Yesterday i cleaned out a pound of floaters. They blocked all the light. Hopefully they make a recovery.

I dont dose or anything. I just feed the shrimp. I think the source of nitrates may be the dying floaters. I literally removed a pound yesterday as they started to overlap and the ones below the top layer started dying. Didnt get to remove all dead floaters yet.

Moss growth was also affected.


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## jimmyjam

i have he exact problem with my high enders.. still have not solved the problem. Im going to start using salty shrimp and straight RO, but sounds like your doing that too not helping.



Symplicity said:


> hey tommy,
> 
> 0/0/40, <6.0ph, 150TDS, KH 1, GH 6, 22.5C.
> 
> ADA Amazonia + Africana , moss balls, and java moss
> 
> RO Water with Salty Shrimp to remineralize, Mosura Rich Water for humic acid, BT-9 for bacteria. Remineralize WC water to 100PPM which keeps my tank at 150ppm. WC using airline hose. Tank is really big so very little temp/tds swings.
> 
> no decor besides pvcs tubing, sponges, moss balls, java moss.
> 
> my CRS and CBS are growing up fine to adulthood, even SSS. Issue seems specific to TB babies. Ill post some photos in 5mins


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## Symplicity

I've counted 4 TB babies that survived 48 hrs after my water change. 

Ill look for them in afew more days.

I got my BKK and 8 month old BB in a breeder. Hopefully I can closely monitor next batch of babies carefully. I cant find the breeding age of TBs online loool thinking its 8 months (male). Female BKK always berries monthly. Just not sure if BB is of age yet. It did grow alot.


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## Symplicity

Updated video of my refreshed tank from 2 years ago. Keeping it simple this time. No UGF and canisters. Sponges only.

Also updated the large tank in this thread (See video for how its going)


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