# 25 gal Starfire Dragon rock Iwagumi [AI materials] journal



## vraev

Hi guys,

I totally had an impulse buy today at Aqua inspiration.

25 gallon starfire glass tank
Wodden stand
External filter
Glass lily pipe set
CO2 cylinder + regulator + glass diffuser
Netlea 2 x 9L bags

& Assorted rocks, plants

Overall, spent around 780$ at AI for this. Is this normal or did i get ripped off? lol! I don't think I can do anything about it atm...everything is sitting in front of me. But I guess its buyers remorse.

cheers,

V


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## Kerohime

Seems reasonable for retail prices... I think it'll be worth it, it looks like some nice equipment for a planted setup.. although I dont see any fixtures on that list. 

You will be spending more on plants and livestock though, try to get them off trades here to lower you cost.


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## vraev

Oh! I already have a 20" 4 tube T5 odyssey fixture with LED coming from US. 

I think the heavy hitter for price was the CO2 : Regulator + cylinder + diffuser. 200$ something for that.


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## splur

New? I don't think they were unreasonable, but this hobby rips you off if you buy new.


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## vraev

Yeah! everything is new. It was going to start with just the tank, filter and stand, then went the whole way with everything.


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## tom g

*set up*

a used c02 system can run u approx 150 plus . so i dont think u are too much off , it would of been better if u thought it out and searched for what u wanted ,but we have all done it i dont think they offer full money back there not sure if they do or not but u can call them and ask them but i am sure they only give credit but i am not 100 percent on that maybe some one else can help with the answer 
cheers


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## vraev

Yeah! I don't think 50$ is worth the trouble to go and try returning the thing. Just very tacky and immature. But yeah...I guess lesson learnt...deal with it and make the best out of it.


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## Kerohime

vraev said:


> Yeah! I don't think 50$ is worth the trouble to go and try returning the thing. Just very tacky and immature. But yeah...I guess lesson learnt...deal with it and make the best out of it.


Haha, Tom is spot on about this.

We have all been through the impulse buy thing, whether its new or old stuff. 
You have some fancy enviable gear there, so make the best out of it and enjoy!

Theres a great quote I read somewhere... "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."

I think that applies to money too! As long as you dont end up on the street!


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## vraev

Fair enough.

Thanks guys. Nice to talk to ppl who are going through the same hobby and impulses. 

But yeah...I mean I am not that bad as buying myself stuff till I am broke, but I mean its a big amount of money for a graduate student, considering what I get paid. But well...I guess it means less wasting money on stuff in the next 3-4 months.


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## splur

Let's just say you could've got what you got used for half the price, but when you buy used you risk it not working, leaking, not being what you expected, etc. You've got it all now, you should post some pictures!! Make it worth it.


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## Scotmando

Don't second guess a great set-up. You're gonna love it when its all set-up.

Sometimes impulses are good. 

You lived the moment. Expand on it! Go for it!


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## Kerohime

O'rly? Grad student you say... so am I! 

And I just spent alot of money on a new bike too. Ah well... at least theres a research stipend right? ;P

Plus I just TA'd a fourth year class by myself and I fully intended on spending all that money after spending my entire holidays marking 250+ essays. x.x



vraev said:


> Fair enough.I mean its a big amount of money for a graduate student, considering what I get paid. But well...I guess it means less wasting money on stuff in the next 3-4 months.


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## vraev

Haha! Thanks guys. Yeah...I called my parents up yesteday and talked to them about it. They said the same thing... its happened...just live with it and enjoy it. lol!

The thing is I am a single guy who just hasn't found the right girl yet and doesn't drink...  so..I tend to go overboard with hobbies...Lets just say I grow Carnivorous plants, I play video games, I grow highland orchid species...I was just trying to get into dart frogs before getting this tank...so I have a heck of a lot of distractions. 

I already have 2 tanks.. 2'x2'x3' setups for highland CPs: Old pic... many rare and expensive plants died this winter due to freezing.

But here is one of the best plants in those tanks:

















A tank I was just working on recently for dart frogs..still early stages...might stop now..lol... don't need more tanks. My apt is full of hobbies.

The whole nature aquarium started with me planning on making a aquarium in this tank below with a false bottom, good lighting, ADA soil. But now..no point..lol..got its own dedicated tank.









Yeah! I am a PhD student. lol! Thats the sad thing... most of stipend goes for rent..and sicne this setup is equal a month's rent... I guess it means saving up money for the next 3-4 months and making up for it.

But yeah..for sure guys...will post progress as I start work on this tank. I have some very hectic weeks coming up so I guess I will excersise restraint at this point.. (lol) and wait till I set it up. At the end of the day..this is the primary part of my life atm...research and the commitments associated with it.


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## bigfishy

Don't worry about the money part, you will make it all back in a couple of years


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## splur

vraev said:


>


Woah, that's really cool. What's the plant in the top picture?


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## Zebrapl3co

Aside from the CO2 unit, the rest of the stuff from AI are of fair value. And I have to admit it's going to be a damn beautiful setup.



Kerohime said:


> ... Plus I just TA'd a fourth year class by myself and I fully intended on spending all that money after spending my entire holidays marking 250+ essays. x.x


Hey, just do what the profs does. Throw those 250+ essays down a flight of stairs and then grade them according to the steps they land on . And if they complain about the bad marks, bell curve it. 

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## vraev

splur said:


> Woah, that's really cool. What's the plant in the top picture?


The top plant is cephalotus follicularis from Australia. It requires decent humidity, but good air circulation. It was one of my challenges to grow this well like 4ys ago. Thanks to friends in the hobby, I got a small one and then thanks to assistance from a close friend who grew them for 8yrs, immediately started getting 


Zebrapl3co said:


> Aside from the CO2 unit, the rest of the stuff from AI are of fair value. And I have to admit it's going to be a damn beautiful setup.
> 
> Hey, just do what the profs does. Throw those 250+ essays down a flight of stairs and then grade them according to the steps they land on . And if they complain about the bad marks, bell curve it.


Fair enough. Yeah! I mean either way, shipping those things if I had indeed got them from either aqua forest or ADG shop would have been insane. Anyways, I have only two big rocks (Oyaishi & Fukuishi) I need to get Soeishi and maybe a Suteishi as well. I guess when I go to pick up my tank, I'll take the rocks, compose them with newer ones and take pics.


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## Symplicity

I dropped a good $800 at AI 6 months on my first setup LOL

and ppl ask how these guys stay in business -_-


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## vraev

Well...they will be getting more of my business soon as I will be buying my cardinal tetra, Amano shrimp, GE, HC cuba from them. This will be an extremely minimalistic tank. Complete focus on the rock work.


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## mrobson

with all the dedication you have i think its time for a saltwater tank


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## vraev

haha!! LOL! No saltwater tank. That I think is just too much. Moreover, personally, I love the apple sytle minimalism of the freshwater planted tanks and I love "greeness" a bit too much.


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## Kerohime

Zebrapl3co said:


> Hey, just do what the profs does. Throw those 250+ essays down a flight of stairs and then grade them according to the steps they land on . And if they complain about the bad marks, bell curve it.


LOL are you kidding me? Its a 4th year Physiology course full of pre meds, I get hounded for half a percent off of 90% exam papers. Plus the course instructor is my boss... that would not end up well at all!

And about going overboard with hobbies, I think for me its being an only child. Lots of free time and resources (money and not having to share anything) to put alot of time and effort into hobbies. I dont think dating anyone slowed down my hobbies... its actually work/school that does that during the intense periods of time. Also when you leave for a week or two to conferences...

Its all about finding someone that appreciates your hobbies as well as being able to pull them into it too.


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## splur

Kerohime said:


> LOL are you kidding me? Its a 4th year Physiology course full of pre meds, I get hounded for half a percent off of 90% exam papers. Plus the course instructor is my boss... that would not end up well at all!
> 
> And about going overboard with hobbies, I think for me its being an only child. Lots of free time and resources (money and not having to share anything) to put alot of time and effort into hobbies. I dont think dating anyone slowed down my hobbies... its actually work/school that does that during the intense periods of time. Also when you leave for a week or two to conferences...
> 
> Its all about finding someone that appreciates your hobbies as well as being able to pull them into it too.


pre meds are the worst... I have to TA them in first year chem.

I find hobbies have a calming effect when it comes to school/work, given that nothing is wrong with your tank!


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## tom g

*co2*

heres how my first intro into c02 went 
175.00 used millwakee regulator /bubblle counter 
10 lb bottle , that was out of date for a fill 75.00
not including tubing diffusers .
then about two months in my regulator blew up 
75.00 later 
so no worries about what u paid ,sometimes we splurge just have to find the right time to do it 
get your set up goin u will forget about the monetary value and enjoy your plants 
cheers 
tom


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## Darkblade48

Kerohime said:


> LOL are you kidding me? Its a 4th year Physiology course full of pre meds, I get* hounded for half a percent off of 90% exam papers*. Plus the course instructor is my boss... that would not end up well at all!


Do what I did. Tell them you can give them the 0.5%, but you will look over their entire exam again.

Then find somewhere else to take off more, leaving them with a net loss.

That will teach them a lesson: *Stop bothering the TA with your frivolous 0.5% deductions.*


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## Scotmando

vraev said:


> Well...they will be getting more of my business soon as I will be buying my cardinal tetra, Amano shrimp, GE, HC cuba from them. This will be an extremely minimalistic tank. Complete focus on the rock work.


I got 10 cardinals and a few plants @ AI last Tues and they're doing great. AI has quality items. They pulled the cardinals out of the gorgeous 180g they have setup. I'll keep going. They're friendly & the shop just looks great. Its a pleasure to walk in to.


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## vraev

For sure...AI is a truly a wonderful place to go to. Better than Big Als or any other fish store I have ever been to. I can get lost looking at their 25 gal and their square tank in the centre of the store, not to mention the amazing 180gal tank that my parents loved very very much.

New problem... Everything is still sitting here, I am still planning out my rock work...but the thought came into my mind about checking my apartment lease. 

I checked it...it said...no aquariums are allowed.

It is a 25 floor building with concrete floors and carpets. I am working with a 25gallon tank. At best with everything in there it may have like 20 gallons of water. So maximum weight is not an issue..its not that big...but concern is water safety. I mean I can ruin the look and place like a 40 gallon plastic tub underneath the wooden stand if it matters, but I think first thing is I need to talk to the super and ensure that they will be fine.


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## Zebrapl3co

vraev said:


> ...It is a 25 floor building with concrete floors and carpets. I am working with a 25gallon tank. At best with everything in there it may have like 20 gallons of water. So maximum weight is not an issue..its not that big...but concern is water safety. I mean I can ruin the look and place like a 40 gallon plastic tub underneath the wooden stand if it matters, but I think first thing is I need to talk to the super and ensure that they will be fine.


I don't know. if you talk to the super, you'll most likely get a no. The problem isn't safety, it's water damage getting to the next floor below. Believe me, even a 25G can do a wide area of damage. Personally speaking, I'd just gloss over that line in the contract and pretend I didn't see it and go ahead and setup the tank. I did however, bought a condo insurance that cover water damage. So I didn't really care. At that time, I think I was runing two 5G tanks, one 29G and one 20G.

*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


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## Windowlicka

Zebrapl3co said:


> Personally speaking, I'd just gloss over that line in the contract and pretend I didn't see it and go ahead and setup the tank.


Agreed. It's better to seek forgiveness than permission!


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## FlyingHellFish

What regulator did you buy? The compact one or the large one?

Can you take a pic of the connect to the Co2 tank, does the box come with a rubber o-ring (gasket)?

Anyways, keep updating, can't wait to see your progress.


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## vraev

Well...as a student, I can't afford to pay if any issues come up with regards to the aquarium being responsible for me being charged for mold issues, or something else that they make up due to water damage. We have regular annual inspections and separate bi-anual smoke detector inspections in my building. I can't hide it. I guess I'll just be safe and go talk to the landlords. Fingers crossed. In the worst case, I have to talk to AI and see if they can let me return it.

FHF, the regulator I got is exactly the one you got...the dual guage, solenoid version (black color) for 109.99$ I think.


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## splur

Do they actually come in for the inspections? If so, you're probably out of luck. If in the end you're willing to return for a potential loss, then you won't really lose out by talking to the landlord. You could potentially offer to pay for insurance that covers any aquarium related water damage, but they may not want the hassle anyways.


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## vraev

I just talked to her..... Officially as a manager, she can't say YES...but unofficially she said I should go for it. Provided that I am willing to pay for any damages due to water leaks that cause mold or carpet damage.

BTW..yes..they come in for inspections atleast two times an year. So they will know for sure.

I am going to call an insurance company to see if they cover water damage. Damn it... I want to make this tank happen. Wanted a nature aquarium for years.


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## splur

Be extremely specific about how you ask your questions to the insurance company about the coverage, or cover all your bases and be vague then go specific. If you're not, they may say yes now and then later on be like "that wasn't covered". You know insurance companies.


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## FlyingHellFish

Well, I had terrible luck with the regulator. It never kelp the working pressure and would spike up and down.

Maybe it's the fact that the connect is a weird British European style connection, one with a rubber o-ring. 

Hope you have better luck than me with it. The consensus among the industry is "not to risk it" so I end up not using it. THe BSP port is a little bit (in mm) bigger than the CGA 320. It does fit, but the BSP standard uses the Rubber O-ring as the seal rather than CGA standard which uses the actual threading.

If you get a chance, ask around and just monitor your regulator.


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## vraev

Hmm....K. Thanks! I will check it out. I am going down to AI to pick up my tank. I'll try to see what they are using and if they have any issues with the regulator themselves. 

Btw...news... green light...I got it sorted with my insurance and it actually works out well and my driving insurance gets a discount as well. So nature aquarium go ahead.  Excited.


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## diagnosis

I have the same 25g setup, and absolutely love it. The size really accentuates the depth of the tank, and the clarity of the starfire glass is amazing. 

You won't regret it.


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## FlyingHellFish

Best of luck bro! 

I wasted well over 150 with fake plants\rocks and coloured gravel, gave them all away and lost interest.

You're off to a good start, try to set up a plan before grabbing plants etc. Re-scaping a set up is blood raging.


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## vraev

Thanks guys! yeah. I am looking forward to starting work on it. 

I have been looking at many iwagumi tanks and trying to check out some pics of mountains in nature to try and come up with ideas. I know I already have a perfect looking oyaishi. Its fantastic.... I also have the fukuishi...but its almost as big as the Oyaishi. I might have to bury it a bit. But I need to go pick up the other stones when I visit AI to pick up my CO2 tank.


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## vraev

Made another visit to AI to pick up my filled 10lb CO2 tank. Damn! dropped another 60$. lol Bought eheim substrate filter media for the E-jet 3368 filter. Sam at AI is a great guy. Very helpful, very nice and a pleasure to talk to. Also bought 2 more rocks to add to the existing two I already got. He suggested that I should wait before getting HC cuba and glossostigma until the filter is ready and colonized. Gave me a stemmed plant to start off the cycle. This will be the basis of the aquascape: Dragon rock.










Any suggestions on how to establish a healthy filter ecosystem? I was thinking...set up the tank, add the two stemmed plants I have... let filter run...wait a couple of weeks while doing water changes etc and then remove almost all the water before potting up the glossostigma and HC cuba.


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## Darkblade48

vraev said:


> He suggested that I should wait before getting HC cuba and glossostigma until the filter is ready and colonized. Gave me a stemmed plant to start off the cycle.


You can just plant the HC and/or _Glossostigma_ from the get go; there is no need to wait for your aquarium to cycle.

HC is much easier to plant if you use dry start method.


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## Fish on the Mind

hey what did the CO2 bottle cost and what size was it? oh and how much would a complete set up cost from AI? new, don't want the hassle of finding stuff and having the possibility id does not work.


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## vraev

The whole CO2 kit cost 240$ for 10lb. 5 lb is only 10$ cheaper. Includes regulator with bubble counter, solenoid, dual guages, tubing. Add another 15$ if you want the glass diffuser.

thanks for the response Anthony...But I also read that HC can melt if immersed after being grown dry. Also...by you guys saying dry...u mean like a terrestrial plant? wet media and just plant in HC ? I will be getting my HC and Glosso next week and will start off


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## bigfishy

how much does the 2 rocks cost you?


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## vraev

The two rocks cost like 20-24$ IIRC. The big one was like 6-8lb.


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## bigfishy

vraev said:


> The two rocks cost like 20-24$ IIRC. The big one was like 6-8lb.


cool!

Looking forward to see your new setup


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## Fishfur

Oh my, where oh where were you when I was your age ??  ! I never had much luck finding dates who shared my hobbies back then either. Didn't help that I had so MANY of them ! But I don't have horses any more - talk about a hobby that just keep eating your money..I shudder to think what it must cost now to keep a horse. It is much less costly to feed plants and shrimp, thankfully.. though once I get into the CO2, I know it's going to keep on going up. But I can be patient, sort of.......


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## Darkblade48

vraev said:


> thanks for the response Anthony...But I also read that HC can melt if immersed after being grown dry. Also...by you guys saying dry...u mean like a terrestrial plant? wet media and just plant in HC ? I will be getting my HC and Glosso next week and will start off


It will melt back a little as it adapts from emersed to immersed setup, but nothing too drastic (nothing like _Cryptocoryne_ species).

As for "dry start", it is essentially like a terrestrial plant. Have some wet media, plant your HC, and mist once a day/once every other day, and keep the aquarium covered to keep the humidity high.


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## ameekplec.

Great start!

Do you want the name of your thread changed? Maybe to something that better reflects what the threads become?


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## Scotmando

ameekplec. said:


> Great start!
> 
> Do you want the name of your thread changed? Maybe to something that better reflects what the threads become?


"Hooked on AI"


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## vraev

@Fishfur
Haha! I think its a tendency. Those of us who like nature tend to venture into a variety of hobbies that are closely related...treking, wildlife photography, fish, plants, reptiles, amphibians, mammals..lol. I've been into all of those that I mentioned. Ofcourse...these are in addition to other interests like technology, cars, sports etc. 

hmm... Good to know Anthony. I will definitely consider the submursed method if I start seeing a lot of algae. Most likely though..I might just do something like ADA shows in their videos. I plan on buying some extra HC from coldmantis and basically start off with a good carpet along with some stem plants. I also have some mosses and marimo balls coming from ebay. I read that the marimo algae secrete inhibitors that actually prevent blue/green algae growth. Could be useful.

lol! Sure... the thread title I think can be changed. I have stopped complaining about dropping 800$ at AI. lol! How about "25 gal Starfire Dragon rock Iwagumi [AI materials] journal"?? Might be useful for people in the future who use the search.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Glad to see the responses I have gotten to this thread.


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## brianc

AI's prices on the starphire rimless tanks are reasonable for a brand new tank. I was thinking about picking up the 4 foot one.


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## vraev

Aqua inspiration Stand construction:



















Layout of pieces before using the bits...plan out. No instructions...but easy to figure out.



















90% done...need to drill holes for the doors. Just placed them on top...looks so slick. There are some imperfections I must mention...some chippings...some big scratches in the panelling...but nothing major as they are on the inside.










Almost there. Next can take out the tank out of its box.

Yup! Their tanks are fairly priced...unlike the ADA ones. The most expensive thing is CO2. But I am reading that is standard for new.

EDIT: There are a lot of minor issues with the stand..i mean imperfections. chips of panel off at places etc. I mean structurally it seems well done. And its totally not worth (for me) to drive down to markham to switch it. Anyways...those imperfections should be hidden behind the tank anyways. But yeah...I'm diggin the clean look. lol!


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## brianc

nice! set it up and start posting pics. becareful with that AI regulator. They aren't the best regulators in the world.


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## vraev

Thanks! I am waiting to get a mat before I can place the aquarium on the stand. I bought a yoga mat at walmart for 10$...but could only choose between blue and pink for this cheaper version. I will check at another store to see if I can get black. Also...light arrived and is in canada post hold...will pick it up tomorrow.


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## Jaysan

Don't use the yoga mats for the 25Gal
I tried that on mine and there is absolutely so support at all, lol

If you go near the kitchen section where they have the pots and pans, there should be a section near them that has mats.
There is a cushioned mat for like $8 or something along those lines.
I just got one and cut it to size


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## vraev

Really? I saw some mats there and they really weren't that thick. The yoga ones are 3.2mm thick and ADA recommends 5-8mm for our tank thickness. What do u mean there is no support? it just compresses all the way? I think thats the purpose...isn't it? Basically the aquarium is at one pot hovering on the table as the mat is compressing under the tank and over the table...effectively absorbing the impacts. heck....i was even thinking that to reach the recommended thickness...cut the mat to two pieces and lay one on top of the other... 6.4mm for effective padding.


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## Kerohime

I'm excited to see how it looks altogether!

Also, might want to move this thread into the planted section.


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## vraev

Quick and stupid question: do we need to clean an aquarium before use? Wipe with wet paper towel enough?

Thnx

Edit: Update : Stand is up, the tank is up, the light is up and damn! it looks kick ass.  Got my paintbrush, right angle ruler and next stop... soil, root fert and rockscape composition.


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> Thanks! I am waiting to get a mat before I can place the aquarium on the stand. I bought a yoga mat at walmart for 10$...but could only choose between blue and pink for this cheaper version. I will check at another store to see if I can get black. Also...light arrived and is in canada post hold...will pick it up tomorrow.


Why is this important? I just put mine right on the stand


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## vraev

Its important in case the stand isn't even...i.e., if it is at some angle...there is increased pressure at one side of the tank...i.e., one pane of glass or at one seam. As a result, without the typical extra silicone and seams, it is possible that there may be a structural failure. That is why the high end ADA tanks, GLA tanks recommend using a mat which will compress upon placing an aquarium and offset any irregularities and properly transfer weight distribution. Now...25gal is a pretty small tank, so perhaps its not necessary for it. But since I went this far, might as well get that one thing. I think its crucial to use a mat for bigger tanks. Heck, I was reading somewhere that the guarantees for rimless tanks are void if you don't use a mat.


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> Its important in case the stand isn't even...i.e., if it is at some angle...there is increased pressure at one side of the tank...i.e., one pane of glass or at one seam. As a result, without the typical extra silicone and seams, it is possible that there may be a structural failure. That is why the high end ADA tanks, GLA tanks recommend using a mat which will compress upon placing an aquarium and offset any irregularities and properly transfer weight distribution. Now...25gal is a pretty small tank, so perhaps its not necessary for it. But since I went this far, might as well get that one thing. I think its crucial to use a mat for bigger tanks. Heck, I was reading somewhere that the guarantees for rimless tanks are void if you don't use a mat.


I see. Mind you i don't really buy that such a miniscule layer of foam can restore balance to 600 pounds of pressure if the table is wonky. It certainly won't level anything out (and even a thicker sheet might be shifting even more weight in that direction if anything).

But who am i to say


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## vraev

Don't underestimate the resistance that can be provided by an appropriate thickness of foam sheet. As the foam compresses more and more based on the weight, the opposite reaction force from the foam also increases to match the downward force from the tank. But at the same time, on the other side of the stand which is at a "higher point" (based on the stand alone), the foam isn't compressed as much. Therefore, if you can imagine...the aquarium is suspended perfectly horizontal even when the stand has a slight angle to it. 

But one thing is for sure: Excessive stress forces on one side a tank which is placed on an uneven surface can definitely cause structural failures. As I said...for a relatively small tank, it shouldn't be a problem.. (but hey...depends on the seam work)... but it is definitely worth considering when you spend 700$ on a setup...u might as well spend extra 10$ to ensure it is placed properly.


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> Don't underestimate the resistance that can be provided by an appropriate thickness of foam sheet. As the foam compresses more and more based on the weight, the opposite reaction force from the foam also increases to match the downward force from the tank. But at the same time, on the other side of the stand which is at a "higher point" (based on the stand alone), the foam isn't compressed as much. Therefore, if you can imagine...the aquarium is suspended perfectly horizontal even when the stand has a slight angle to it.


Yes, you get an opposite force from the foam material, but this cannot "balance" the tank. the foam is still more compressed where more pressure is applied. Press on a piece of foam with your left and right fingers, one harder than the other, and the foam under the finger you're pressing harder with will be lower. What does this mean? You already said it. The higher end of the tank would have the less compressed foam, effectively increasing the slope, albeit by a negligible amount.

Maybe I'm just retarded for not getting this.



vraev said:


> But one thing is for sure: Excessive stress forces on one side a tank which is placed on an uneven surface can definitely cause structural failures. As I said...for a relatively small tank, it shouldn't be a problem.. (but hey...depends on the seam work)... but it is definitely worth considering when you spend 700$ on a setup...u might as well spend extra 10$ to ensure it is placed properly.


My tank is pretty badly sloped, but I'm worried I'd do much more damage lifting a tank with driftwood, rocks and three bags of soil in, even if I took most of the water out. Gonna try and slide plastic spacers under the affected corners of the stand

For a tank that's sloped 1mm though, keeping in mind that gravity acts explicitly downwards, I can't see this affecting the seams. Otherwise filling the tank with water would be impossible without it bursting on account of the added downward pressure on one side. You'd have to have a hell of a flimsy tank. Manufacturers, of course, have to warn you about this voiding the warranty, because no one can accept liability for a product used as it was not intended to be.

This of it this way, the relative discrepancy: the water on one side is 400mm deep whereas the water on the other is 397. Now consider the total downward force of each.


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## vraev

Boogerboy said:


> Yes, you get an opposite force from the foam material, but this cannot "balance" the tank. the foam is still more compressed where more pressure is applied. Press on a piece of foam with your left and right fingers, one harder than the other, and the foam under the finger you're pressing harder with will be lower. What does this mean? You already said it. The higher end of the tank would have the less compressed foam, effectively increasing the slope, albeit by a negligible amount.
> 
> Maybe I'm just retarded for not getting this.
> 
> My tank is pretty badly sloped, but I'm worried I'd do much more damage lifting a tank with driftwood, rocks and three bags of soil in, even if I took most of the water out. Gonna try and slide plastic spacers under the affected corners of the stand
> 
> For a tank that's sloped 1mm though, keeping in mind that gravity acts explicitly downwards, I can't see this affecting the seams. Otherwise filling the tank with water would be impossible without it bursting on account of the added downward pressure on one side. You'd have to have a hell of a flimsy tank. Manufacturers, of course, have to warn you about this voiding the warranty, because no one can accept liability for a product used as it was not intended to be.
> 
> This of it this way, the relative discrepancy: the water on one side is 400mm deep whereas the water on the other is 397. Now consider the total downward force of each.


You cannot apply the finger analogy to the tank. The fingers are distinct seperate units. We need to consider a seperate model where there is a slight offset of the centre of gravity. Basically the point being...on a table which is sloped, the angle of the spole creates force components...on the side panels of glass:

I will try making a diagram later .... can't now...but...basic idea if you can follow along......by having an elastic media between the object and the point of contact...u are effectively dampening any extra forces that can place undue stress on any singular individual glass pane.

Regarding ur current conundrum... I wouldn't mess with it if your tank is doing fine for now. If you had an issue.... it would have happened sooner than later. What size is your tank? I think u risk more by trying to manually balance it. Next time you are perhaps cleaning the tank...a full change or something similar, perhaps that might a good time to consider something if you are so "inclined" (forgive the pun) .

Once again...it seriously depends on a variety of variables. Tanks are made to effectively handle the capacity of water forces that they are quoted for. but if the silicone is weak or if the person had a minor lapse in concentration while the tank was being made.... and if the thickness isn't optimum (less likely), then there may be a problem.

Either way.. I don't think AI themselves use anything under their tanks.. I didn't pay attention until I considered it for my tank. I will be back at AI on sat...so I can check to see if they use anything. This is more a peace of mind thingy. As I said...10$ is not too bad considering 800$ that I have already spent.


----------



## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> You cannot apply the finger analogy to the tank. The fingers are distinct seperate units. We need to consider a seperate model where there is a slight offset of the centre of gravity. Basically the point being...on a table which is sloped, the angle of the spole creates force components...on the side panels of glass:
> 
> I will try making a diagram later .... can't now...but...basic idea if you can follow along......by having an elastic media between the object and the point of contact...u are effectively dampening any extra forces that can place undue stress on any singular individual glass pane.


Ah ok, I sort of see what you're saying now. It has more to do with outward force than gravity, the water pushing against all four walls of the tank, with one experiencing more force than the others. I still feel, though, that whatever the discrepancy in the forces is, it cannot be great enough to cause a collapse of integrity.

If you could theoretically fill the tank up a few cms more than it is tall, it likely wouldn't fall apart, either. This is why you can press on the glass from the inside (pretty hard even) when cleaning it without getting fish juice on your floor and shards of glass everywhere else.

And I'm not sure I understand how foam has a levelling effect. You mention dampening of the force but as long as there is no impact I don't understand what it would dampen. It would actually make more sense if the tank were on separate pressure points as your fingers on foam would be, since a minor discrepancy would put an exponential amount of force on one of the feet. but i feel as if the distribution of pressure along a single, perfectly flat surface on another perfectly flat surface more than counters most possible negative outcomes.



vraev said:


> Regarding ur current conundrum... I wouldn't mess with it if your tank is doing fine for now. If you had an issue.... it would have happened sooner than later. What size is your tank? I think u risk more by trying to manually balance it. Next time you are perhaps cleaning the tank...a full change or something similar, perhaps that might a good time to consider something if you are so "inclined" (forgive the pun) .
> 
> Once again...it seriously depends on a variety of variables. Tanks are made to effectively handle the capacity of water forces that they are quoted for. but if the silicone is weak or if the person had a minor lapse in concentration while the tank was being made.... and if the thickness isn't optimum (less likely), then there may be a problem.
> 
> Either way.. I don't think AI themselves use anything under their tanks.. I didn't pay attention until I considered it for my tank. I will be back at AI on sat...so I can check to see if they use anything. This is more a peace of mind thingy. As I said...10$ is not too bad considering 800$ that I have already spent.


Hahahah, that was one of the better places for a pun if anything.

AI do use the foam under their tanks, actually, that's why I was expecting to get it with my tank (really, can't a tank this expensive come with a bit of foam?!). When I found it wasn't there, I figured it was only a non slip mat, or a scratch protector, and let my excitement for the new tank get the better of me.

I did an 80% water change last week, I'm fairly sure that if I get it down to this level I'd be able to lift the front feet of the table a few millimeters by pushing up from inside the cabinet. My issue is that I installed the plastic feet under the front and back panels, not the side panels (d'oh) so there's probably a lot of pressure where it shouldn't be in the wood of the cabinet that I really don't feel comfortable with. I have the 90P, too, so I've calculated it to about 600 pounds full. yikes.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me!


----------



## vraev

You cannot discount gravity. In a perfectly horizontal state, the gravity is just mg (m = mass of water). I am no physicist and I don't know much about fluid dynamics...but water alone has the outward pressure on the panes of each glass. But if the tank is at a slight angle...there is a component of gravity : mg sin (theta) to be exact that adds on to the particular pane that the tank is tilted towards.

Regarding the foam....consider this.... The tank at the tilted side has extra force components that are pointing down at the edges/seams. But the dense foam is able to compress and resist (something which a cloth cannot do) the extra force. It will then put an upward force on the tank effectively minimizing the tilt of the tank. 

Does that make sense? lol

Aha...so they use the foam too eh? Well... figures...man...they do have amazing tanks...but that is the perfect front for extorting money...lol.... and who can blame them... its a business like apple.....why don't apple give away simple phone cases with their 600-700$ iphones or ipads...same idea....make more money. 

I would be very concerned about trying to lift the tank and the stand. There is a lot more risk involved. I think u should get some more feedback on this matter. Your situation requires more feedback from people who have/haven't used any mats. I am a newcomer to aquariums afterall.


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## Boogerboy

My aim isn't to insert a mat, but just to wedge in spacers under the cabinet sideboard the same height as the rest of the tank feet. I'm not really that worried about it, the tank will be mostly empty but its still too heavy to slide anywhere  not for a few millimeters lift anyway. 

It just really bothers me that the water isn't level


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## vraev

Yup! I understand that you are trying to insert spacers under the cabinet. But still...I would be very wary about trying to move a stand with an aquarium that has any amount of water and "stuff" in it. But well...good luck.


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## vraev

The beginning:








































Depicted in above pics is use of netlea brown soil substrate and netlea root fertilizer.


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## vraev

fill up with remaining media. Total used : 1 9L bag + a couple of cups of brown soil.

Front depth: 3" Rear depth: 6-7"

night lighting:









Time for suggestions:

What do u guys think? I have another bigger piece of dragon rock. Too flat...doesnt' look too good. So will return that and try to see if i can get two more smaller pieces to fill in.


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## Boogerboy

Will definitely look fantastic with some secondary stones, I really like your choices for the big ones.

Are those blue actinics built in? Is that an Odyssea 4x fixture like the ones from AI or did you get your own?


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## vraev

Thanks! Yes! I already got 4 more smaller stones. I am sure it will definitely help me revamp it. I love the Oyaishi on the left. Really love the texture and structure...just not the even equilateral triangular face in the front as u see. But well...its not too bad. The second stone, not that much of a fan...also I might have to use more media + plastic supports from egg crate to make it stand up a bit more. I have a couple of busy days coming up after which I can probably try finishing the layout.

Regarding light..yes...this is exactly the fixtures that AI sells. But I got them myself from aquatraders in USA. You can save almost 50$. I just got a second one...upgrade from this 20" fixture to 24". That way it will be 96watt/25 gal...i.e., around 3.5+ watt/gallon...i.e., high light range. It should work good considering I am planning on primarily working with HC cuba. I will use the 20" over my terrarium. Its cheaply made, but it works..and the LED effect is cool....yup! The blue is just LED..not actinics. They are cheap LED bulbs. JayPetro on this forum says that they aren't that reliable. So putting them on a timer might cause them to fail relatively soon. I think its just nice to turn on manually at night to show off or just try something different.


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## Boogerboy

I'm sure they're replaceable without too much trouble if you have a soldering iron.

I unfortunately bought 2x2 odyssea fixtures instead of the 4 to avoid the driftwood jutting out the middle of the tank and it cost me 10 dollars extra and I don't get the LEDs! But I did wind up getting a stand 5cm deeper than my tank so I can hopefully bounce some LED lighting off the wall from behind it at night. This tank looks really cool under that blue light! I assume it's a bit more subtle than that in reality (or at least I hope, my aquarium is in my room)

I like both the stones, I used found rocks in my new setup and it bothers me that they're not matching types so I'm probably gonna have to buy stones for the first time in my life, the things I do for this hobby...


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## vraev

Haha! Thats how it goes....unless u are willing to spend a lot of time and effort finding the right things, sometimes its easier to pay and get what you want.

Update:

Try 2: Was good...but not front on... I mean there are 5 stones and two stones on the left appear to be one from the front. Not that good.










Try 3: My fav. But not original.. I found this in Mr. Amano's journal. I want to do something original, but man..I love the look of this. So probably will stay with this layout.


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## Boogerboy

I personally like convergent designs more than divergence, but that's entirely personal. From a composition standpoint it is very sound.

If you're not in a hurry (you shouldn't be in this hobby, but I unfortunately always am) then keep playing around until you find something better, or if you don't then revert to this one. Keep in mind though that you can always still be original in your choice of flora and fauna


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## vraev

Ofcourse...  The planting is going to be very different from any of amano's aquaria. But yeah... It is a PITA to keep changing layouts... I mean its fun when you find something interesting that can be called a layout, but the most annoying thing is cleaning up the aquasoil..lol. That whole middle layer of soil fertilizer......thats gone..lol...its all mixed up somewhere. haha! 

Also since this is my first aquarium, I think I will try doing this more the traditional way by following Mr. Amano's footsteps in layout design. Maybe next time, I can try the more cool looking "tree on a mountain", "pathway between two mountains" designs. 

but well... considering that i got this setup nearly 3wk ago, I think its time I should start planting it... I just need to buy wrenches to ensure I can properly attach the CO2 stuff and need to read up on how to safely use it. 

What do u guys think..should I do a dry/emmersed start?

Or since I have the water from AI in which the plants were grown, should I grow directly plant the plants into the tnak and flood start it ? 

I am more inclined to the latter as I can't wait to see water in this tank. haha! I know algae is the big issue with HC and starting...but I do have a couple of stem plants which I will plant in the background temporarily to get the cycle started. its kinda cool..I have the plants under a single 60watt CFL in plastic tubs with water and they are already pearling...I guess at their normal rate. I am sure adding CO2 and planing them will give them a nice boost.


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## Boogerboy

I see no harm in getting started with the full tank, i feel your pain.

Although mind you I rushed to fill the thing and it's been 3 weeks and the HC is pearling and spreading yeah but much slower than I thought it would. At this rate it'll be 2 months before i get a nice full carpet. So impatience doesn't pay 

Of course, depends all in all how much you have. I did get a fair amount of die-off too because of improper planting 

To give you an idea of how miserably slow these little bastards grow: 




I saw a pretty plump looking pot of Hemianthus Microanthemoides (sp?) today at this flower shop, in potting soil and emersed. Wonder if it could adapt to a water dunking.


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## vraev

Well...slow growing plants are nothing new to me...and this HC is light speed compared to my carnivorous plants, so thats fine. Regarding quantity, I don't have too much...maybe a mat of like 6" or so... I was planing on making small 1-2cm plugs and planting them like an inch apart. The main idea is to cover the whole area evenly and then let it grow. I wanted to get the aquaflora tubs, but shipping is almost the price of the tubs themselves and totally un-needed. I guess I just have to wait a couple of months before my tank will have a nice carpet.


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## Zebrapl3co

Looks fine and you're doing a great job for a newb...er ... I mean first timer .
Seriously though, you did a lot of reading and not only that, you managed to sif out the good advices from the bad ones. It took me 2 years of trial and error to get it right. So you're off to a good start that's for sure.
Take your time with the layout. I like #3 as well. #2 looks like off world to me and #1 is off balance making me want to lean to the right to look at the picture better. 
Not sure what are your plans for the back of your tank, but having it sloped down instead of up may take away your ability to produce depth in your tank.

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----------



## Kerohime

I would go with #3 as well!


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## Jaysan

I like #3....
....
....so much that I may do a similar design in my own tank, LOL


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## vraev

Thanks guys. Yup! I stuck with #3 and actually almost finished my planting.



Zebrapl3co said:


> Looks fine and you're doing a great job for a newb...er ... I mean first timer .
> Seriously though, you did a lot of reading and not only that, you managed to sif out the good advices from the bad ones. It took me 2 years of trial and error to get it right. So you're off to a good start that's for sure.
> Take your time with the layout. I like #3 as well. #2 looks like off world to me and #1 is off balance making me want to lean to the right to look at the picture better.
> Not sure what are your plans for the back of your tank, but having it sloped down instead of up may take away your ability to produce depth in your tank.


haha! THanks. Yeah...its my OCD acting up. I get into so much depth with my hobbies that I read so much about it. Its funny that if I put half that amount of effort into my grad school, lol...I'll be so much more productive. Anyways...

Right now the substrate is in the form of a mound...it is highest at the centre where the stones are. It slopes down at the back and the front. A good inch difference in substrate. It was required to keep the stones stable. (big ones). I didn't want to use even more substrate. (Tank has 12L of netlea atm). The point of this shape was to give prominance to the stones....as if they are raising out from the ocean floor....an island coming up.

I dont' have pics atm...but my layout for planting became a bit messy. Idea is foreground in front of stones... riccia on mesh (I got three pieces)....the remaining gaps need to be filled in. Waiting to get more riccia.

The back is all HC. There is UG in between the nooks of the Oyaishi and Soeshi sort of creeping from under the rocks. Need to watch out for this guy and keep him in check.

Then there is basically 7 mesh pieces of my fav. pheonix moss in spaces temporarily + mini moss balls.

Finally, peacock moss on the stones. There is like a 1-2" of water above the substrate...just so as all the substrate is wet. The problem with doing a uneven substrate is that now on either sides (front and back), there is 1" height of water...that means the HC is growing submurged.

Anyways...waititng to get more HC and riccia in, then once that is done, I'll fill it up, hook up the filter and start off with the CO2.


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## vraev

So here is the big update....finished planting...and filled up.. a bit scary.

The floor is carpet...there is a 4mm difference from front to back in the water level. I am kinda concerned about it....I think it should be fine....btw...ironically...the mat didn't help...lol...maybe it did a bit...but clearly not enough.

the planting wasn't as nice as I expected. lol.... btw...hate those steel meshes that u I used for the riccia. Need to replace with riccia stone in the future... ALso.... put HC in... now have too many plants...have meshes with pheonix moss as well. Either way...looking very very messy. I guess I need the HC to start growing before I clean it up. Also need the riccia to be planted properly.























































Must say...my first aquarium...a bit concerned about the tank strength..lol...especially with that 4mm uneven-ness. I mean the tank area is now bearing almost 400lb of weight. Its a high rise apt so I am assuming floors are concrete and should be fine.

Also... forgot buying a net..so leaves all over the water. Will set up eheim in the morning.


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> btw...ironically...the mat didn't help...lol...







vraev said:


> Must say...my first aquarium...a bit concerned about the tank strength..lol...especially with that 4mm uneven-ness. I mean the tank area is now bearing almost 400lb of weight. Its a high rise apt so I am assuming floors are concrete and should be fine.
> 
> Also... forgot buying a net..so leaves all over the water. Will set up eheim in the morning.


Don't worry. My tank was at a 5mm slope front to back and 2mm left to right. 50 gal. Almost a month and it was fine (but I adjusted it anyway for aesthetic reasons). Also your tank is probably closer to the 280lb ballpark so it's really just a chubby guy in your apt. no worries about the floor.


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## Zebrapl3co

The mat is still useful in that it will prevent your tank from having any stress point. Any warp on the wood due to overspills during use will create stress point. It's these stress points against the bottom of the glass that will crack your tank. It could also be a grain of sand or a small pebble.

Just a question, I've seen alot people use those sticks. What are they for?

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----------



## Boogerboy

Zebrapl3co said:


> The mat is still useful in that it will prevent your tank for having any stress point. Any warp on the wood due to overspills during use will create stress point. It's these stress points against the bottom of glass that will crack your tank. It could also be a grain or a small rock.
> 
> Just a question, I've seen alot people use those sticks. What are they for?


I have no doubt of that. I was just commenting on its suggested ability to level the tank.


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## vraev

Oh! The sticks are just to plan out the planting. basically within that front perimeter and side on the right, I want to have riccia. Then...behind it....all HC. the difference in height will give a very nice effect.

Alright...hooked up the eheim. Nice filter and love the lily tubes...BUT problem...actually well known...its making a humming noise..the motor. I opened up the impeller assembly and everyhting is seated properly. As other people have said, the sound goes down when I press hard on the filter head. I guess this is the reputed non german batches. I don't know if I should bother spending 20$ on gas to go to AI and try changing it....I am assuming if so many people have this issue with new filters, it is just the particular factory/batch issue.





































eheim noise: turn your volume up a bit to hear it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vraev/6950655082/

http://www.flickr.com/apps/video/stewart.swf?v=109786


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## Boogerboy

I forget how good those filter pipes look when new

Only a month in and mine are already kinda murky, can only imagine what they'll look like in a few months.

Either way, the setup is looking good man, I'm looking forward to seeing this tank develop


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## vraev

did u try using that brush that can bend? ALso ADA sells this cleaning solution. I don't know if AI carry something similar though.

But yeah....next step is CO2 setup. need to go get a wrench first.

Has anyone fixed their noisy eheims? I sent Eheim support an email. Lets see what they say.


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## charlie1

Great Job! i really like your rock scape so much so i have copied the main focal point, shameless.
Your attention to detail shows here, looking forward to following this build.
Keep up the good work.
Regards


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> did u try using that brush that can bend? ALso ADA sells this cleaning solution. I don't know if AI carry something similar though.
> 
> But yeah....next step is CO2 setup. need to go get a wrench first.
> 
> Has anyone fixed their noisy eheims? I sent Eheim support an email. Lets see what they say.


Yeah, ADA also sells 35 dollar filter tubing. I'm pretty sure some rubbing alcohol and salt and shaking about would get this **** and span. I do want to get one of those brush things, but I hear the eheim ones are the only ones good enough to go all the way around and to the bottom of the pipe (the 17mm pipe is really long).

Did you buy the CO2 from AI? My cheapo dici regulator came with a wrench and Allen key in the box.


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## vraev

Yup! Everything from AI. Hmm...I guess its one of those things to look up and buy next month....the eheim brush eh? need to check it out. thnx. Yeah..I was going to try vinegar as the cleaning solution. I use vinegar to clean my humidifier regularly. it works great.

Oh! You are using the DICI regulator? Is it safe? working fine? How did u install it? I don't want to blow the low pressure gauge.... but where exactly is the regulator valve? lol!..not the needle valve. Darkblade's thread said...u have to open the delivery valve until no pressure...then open CO2. I am so lost with the CO2 stuff. lol


----------



## vraev

charlie1 said:


> Great Job! i really like your rock scape so much so i have copied the main focal point, shameless.
> Your attention to detail shows here, looking forward to following this build.
> Keep up the good work.
> Regards


thanks! lol! But I am not too happy with the planting. I might go to Big Al's tomorrow to see if I can buy some thin pieces of slate to make my own Ricica stone. I can't stand the look of that mesh.

No worries...I copied it from Takashi amano. lol!


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## charlie1

Boogerboy said:


> Yeah, ADA also sells 35 dollar filter tubing. I'm pretty sure some rubbing alcohol and salt and shaking about would get this **** and span. I do want to get one of those brush things, but I hear the eheim ones are the only ones good enough to go all the way around and to the bottom of the pipe (the 17mm pipe is really long).
> 
> Did you buy the CO2 from AI? My cheapo dici regulator came with a wrench and Allen key in the box.


 Cleaning Lilly pipes is easy - I remove mine & soak it in Bleach & water for about 15 mins & a good rinse after, good as new & shiny
Just be careful when removing the tubing, as it tends to form a good seal, i pinch the tubing just below the glass pipe & carefully push the tubing further on to the pipe to break the seal ,it then comes off easy


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## vraev

Must say though...I love the glass pipes. I might try and see if I can replace the green tubing with some transparent tubing from home depot.

I know this is totally overkill...but I want to buy the glass feeder. haha! can only get it from US and considering the places only ship through UPS..that means it will be atleast a 100$ before I get it. 

I was thinking of actually making it....a bulb.....problem is making holes without breaking it...then stick in some transparent tubing with a notch. A rod with a ball bearing at the end...push in a spring...close the other end. Its so freaking simple...but ADA makes it so artistically. Pure genius. So un-necessary... but soo elegant.


----------



## diagnosis

I have been using the flexible brush from AI to clean my 13mm pipes, and it has been doing a great job. I find that if you pre-bend the brush head a little it helps it navigate the tight bend on the inlet pipe. Using hot water helps with the flexibility of the bristles as well. 

IIRC, it was around $10.


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> Yup! Everything from AI. Hmm...I guess its one of those things to look up and buy next month....the eheim brush eh? need to check it out. thnx. Yeah..I was going to try vinegar as the cleaning solution. I use vinegar to clean my humidifier regularly. it works great.
> 
> Oh! You are using the DICI regulator? Is it safe? working fine? How did u install it? I don't want to blow the low pressure gauge.... but where exactly is the regulator valve? lol!..not the needle valve. Darkblade's thread said...u have to open the delivery valve until no pressure...then open CO2. I am so lost with the CO2 stuff. lol


No problems here, been delivering stable 30ppm for a while now. The instructions with it are in Engrish but still manage to do a good job of explaining how to get everything running. My only complaint is that the bubble counter tends to lose water pretty fast so I'd use mineral oil instead. May have to do with the quality of camcarb co2 or something but I leak checked and there are no problems

It is my first time using co2 as well so you should have no problems.


----------



## vraev

Nice to hear. I can't wait to start CO2-ing my tank. I am currently not doing water changes yet as I am waiting to establish the filter cycle. (there is lot of opinions on this)...ADA suggests water change every day or min every 2 days. Its currently 2 days since I set it up and my tank actually looks very clear apart from a greenish tint. The filter is doing its job well. The pH yesteday was 6.8. I stil have to check nitrates and ammonia in the tank. Honestly I am putting off water change till my exams are done in 2 weeks. But might do one this coming week sometime when I get a break.

I think my HC is melting and becoming brown. Right now I have about ~3 watt/gallon with my fixture...but considering how bad the reflector is, it might be mid light levels...or low. I should be getting my 96 watt 24" odyssey which will raise up the lumens a bit more, but in the meanwhile I hope the HC all doesn't die off. Was a expensive affair to get even this much.

Interestingly...riccia is doing like gangbusters. Loves the direct flow from the filter output. Growth in 3 days already. I think its gobbling up all the CO2 before HC gets a chance.


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## vraev

Update:

Drop checker


























Riccia floating:


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## Zebrapl3co

Heh heh, yeah, you will have to put some weight to ground your ricca. Don't worry about the net, the ricca will quickly grow and completely cover your net making it invisible. Your bigger issue is to weigh it down. That's why some people net them against a small rock.
Also, you'll no doubt soon find out that you will need to trim your ricca more frequently than you'd like. And this process involves picking it out of the tank trim it and put it back in the tank. So that basically rules out sprinkling gravels to weight it down. The consequences of not trimming is that the ricca will grow too tall and starts breaking off from the net. Also, those sharp pointy wire ends. They'll prick your fingers.

As for the HC, if it was grown emerse and put under water, it will melt. In fact, even if the water is too big of a difference from one to another tank. It will melt. But as long as it's planted firmly. It will grow new shoots. These new ones will be better adapted to your tank's lighting and environment.
You kind of got the idea right by planting them 1" appart. That's good, but to maximise HC's grown. You'll gain a better spread if you plant them like the #5 pattern of a dice.

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----------



## vraev

yeah! I am going to replace the nets with stones. and it is going to look very nice. 

I agree...I am disappointed about the HC. Spent atleast like 30$ on it. the sad thing is the meshes seem to pull up a bit of HC directly above them. ALso...I don't have CO2 regulator yet. Still waiting on it. I wish I had more HC to plant even more densely and in nice big buttons like u see on the ADA website....but that would run me dry...considering each pot of HC is like atleast 10$ in stores and 4-5$ here on the boards. I would still require around 12 x 6 pots of 2" ....maybe roughly 50 of them atleast to get nice coverage. 

Infact I thought of getting the aquaflora tubs from BC. But shipping is 25$ on its own and the HC is 15$. lol! so even if I get 2 tubs, that is still like 55$ for just HC. 

I just hope it all doesn't die off before my CO2 regulator is delivered.


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## splur

That drop checker is kind of awesome and riccia in a net.... why didn't I think of that?

Does the riccia attach to stones? Cause right now it's conquering some of my plants sticking to them and my sponge filters growing wildly... making it the most annoying plant I have in my tank currently.


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## vraev

3 water changes done.... 25%....30%......75%

pH: 6.4
nitrite: 0.2ppm
Ammonia: 1ppm


----------



## Boogerboy

splur said:


> That drop checker is kind of awesome and riccia in a net.... why didn't I think of that?
> 
> Does the riccia attach to stones? Cause right now it's conquering some of my plants sticking to them and my sponge filters growing wildly... making it the most annoying plant I have in my tank currently.


Cannot stand Riccia for this reason, I was always amazed people keep it for fun. It comes latched onto plants i buy everywhere and its impossible to get out of your tank. Actually for the first few years of aquascaping i thought it was a type of algae.

PS drop checker is 10 at AI  13 on Aqmagic I think.



vraev said:


> yeah! I am going to replace the nets with stones. and it is going to look very nice.
> 
> I agree...I am disappointed about the HC. Spent atleast like 30$ on it. the sad thing is the meshes seem to pull up a bit of HC directly above them. ALso...I don't have CO2 regulator yet. Still waiting on it. I wish I had more HC to plant even more densely and in nice big buttons like u see on the ADA website....but that would run me dry...considering each pot of HC is like atleast 10$ in stores and 4-5$ here on the boards. I would still require around 12 x 6 pots of 2" ....maybe roughly 50 of them atleast to get nice coverage.
> 
> Infact I thought of getting the aquaflora tubs from BC. But shipping is 25$ on its own and the HC is 15$. lol! so even if I get 2 tubs, that is still like 55$ for just HC.
> 
> I just hope it all doesn't die off before my CO2 regulator is delivered.


People have kept HC without CO2 (with varying success) but I suggest glutaraldehyde (excel). Be careful not to overdose especially on a new tank as it will kill your cycle.

Anyway, I've spent 50 dollars to carpet basically 2/3 of my 90P, so an area roughly the whole bottom of your tank. It just takes a few weeks of patience  and its totally worth it, it's one of the most beautiful plants I've ever seen. Now I'm about a month in and its almost covered the bottom but this is a slow growing plant. Don't know why so many profiles have it listed as a fast grower.


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## vraev

Yup! Drop checker is Awsome indeed. No need to guess anymore. It was total 23$ with Calaqua indicator solution. Btw...do u guys replac ethe solution ever? After how long?
And yes...got the checker at AI.

I agree...riccia isn't that pretty per se..I think HC is the topper...but it's just so expensive. Also the riccia will help give it a more natural look. Yeah...it is annoying though....strands of it are clinging to the rocks and mosses. I have clean it up once my stones arrives and I am ready to add fish.

Btw....it's around 2wk ATM.... The nitrite tells me the bacteria I added is starting to break down some ammonia. When can I start adding fish? The options are galaxy rasbora, cardinal tetra, oto catfish, Siamese algae eater....amano or chery shrimp.


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## Boogerboy

Start adding fish when your Ammonia and Nitrite is down to 0. You'll want to keep your nitrates under 20 too (the plants should do most of that) but if it's over (which it usually is after cycling, especially if you're choosing not to do water changes) then do a huge WC (like 75%) and you should be good to go!

I'd avoid SAE because they get big, and aggressive, and they will eat your fish's food. Once theyve had a taste of bloodworms i find it's hard to get them back on algae. Otos seem to be the cleanup crew of choice around here, though I've never had any personally.

Galaxy rasboras are really nice especially in tanks 25 and below because they're so tiny they don't draw too much focus away from the scape. I'd spend some more time looking at different tetras and microrasboras if I were you. Boraras Brigittae are stunning little guys. Green or chili rasboras (although any kind really) are good for schooling. Green neon tetras are like cardinals but more rare and striking in my opinion (also more expensive, though. Lucky's website says cardinals are 50 for 50). If you get a chance, head down to Menagerie to have a look-see, they usually have a terrific range of fish.

Amano shrimp do a good cleanup job, but they get large. Like, fan-shrimp large. Which I find pretty gross, they get very cockroach-esque. RCS will stay fairly small, and they look like tiny lobsters, which is awesome. They do an okay job of algae eating but not as much as Amano. On the upside, they wont uproot your HC. 

Pygmy corys (Corydoras habrosus) are also a cute choice of bottom-level fauna.

Dario dario are stunning, but no idea where to find them.


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## splur

vraev said:


> Yup! Drop checker is Awsome indeed. No need to guess anymore. It was total 23$ with Calaqua indicator solution. Btw...do u guys replac ethe solution ever? After how long?
> And yes...got the checker at AI.
> 
> I agree...riccia isn't that pretty per se..I think HC is the topper...but it's just so expensive. Also the riccia will help give it a more natural look. Yeah...it is annoying though....strands of it are clinging to the rocks and mosses. I have clean it up once my stones arrives and I am ready to add fish.


How are you attaching the riccia to your stones?


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## Jaysan

Once I fill my tank and get it all planted and is cycled (using some cycled water and a cycled Eheim 2213 will help with the cycling process, these will be my live stock:

- 15-20 CPD (Galaxy Rasboras)
- 10 Chilli Rasboras (Might pick up 5-10 more as they are tiny! lol)
- 10-20 Cherry Shrimp
- 1-2 Amano shrimps
- A few low grade CRS to test out if they can grow big and breed in the tank (I have a CRS specific tank so these will most likely be the culls)
- 1 or 2 SAE if I have any huge algae issues.


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## vraev

splur said:


> How are you attaching the riccia to your stones?


I attach the riccia using a fish line I bought at walmart....9$ IIRC. But I am going to get some riccia line as well.


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## vraev

Boogerboy said:


> Start adding fish when your Ammonia and Nitrite is down to 0. You'll want to keep your nitrates under 20 too (the plants should do most of that) but if it's over (which it usually is after cycling, especially if you're choosing not to do water changes) then do a huge WC (like 75%) and you should be good to go!
> 
> I'd avoid SAE because they get big, and aggressive, and they will eat your fish's food. Once theyve had a taste of bloodworms i find it's hard to get them back on algae. Otos seem to be the cleanup crew of choice around here, though I've never had any personally.
> 
> Galaxy rasboras are really nice especially in tanks 25 and below because they're so tiny they don't draw too much focus away from the scape. I'd spend some more time looking at different tetras and microrasboras if I were you. Boraras Brigittae are stunning little guys. Green or chili rasboras (although any kind really) are good for schooling. Green neon tetras are like cardinals but more rare and striking in my opinion (also more expensive, though. Lucky's website says cardinals are 50 for 50). If you get a chance, head down to Menagerie to have a look-see, they usually have a terrific range of fish.
> 
> Amano shrimp do a good cleanup job, but they get large. Like, fan-shrimp large. Which I find pretty gross, they get very cockroach-esque. RCS will stay fairly small, and they look like tiny lobsters, which is awesome. They do an okay job of algae eating but not as much as Amano. On the upside, they wont uproot your HC.
> 
> Pygmy corys (Corydoras habrosus) are also a cute choice of bottom-level fauna.
> 
> Dario dario are stunning, but no idea where to find them.


Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Yeah! I might just get otos...although I like the look of SAE.  I always loved the rainbow shark family...so SAE is a nice alternative...but I also read they are bad with moss. So i might avoid using them as I don't want them to eat all the moss I have in my tank.

yeah..lol..I prefer small shrimp too. But I guess I might add a couple amano and mostly red cherry shrimp. balance between cleanup and looks.

yeah...i am pretty set on cardinal tetras...always wanted them...so for sure that is happening...but I might go 10 cardinals and 10 rasboras....or other kinds. I want nice color in the tank. I wanted to also consider adding a nice betta...but I hear betta can eat tetra if they small enough. so will see how it goes with the schoolers first.


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## vraev

OMG! Just noticed .....tons and tons of thread algae all over the rocks....HC. damn! did a water change...but I guess I need to keep doing it and get my co2 setup before I can get it under control...atleast until the amano shrimp show up.


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## bigfishy

What kind of lily pipes are you using?  and how was the quality?


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## vraev

The NAG lily pipes from AI. I haven't ever tried any other lily pipes.....but so far I love it. 

btw guys.....is there a way to add more aquasoil to the tank without damaging the plants? I really didn't understand that the reason for a higher soil level at the back is because of the distortion through water. The perspective I thought is more an aesthetic thing...but the distortion makes it seem as if the soil is dipping down. 

so I was thinking if I can carefully pull out the hc and add more soil at the back and replant again?


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## charlie1

bigfishy said:


> What kind of lily pipes are you using?  and how was the quality?


bigfishy, i`m curious by your question, is there a quality issue with some lilly pspe ?, if so can you state them.
Regards


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## vraev

*Algae issues*

The start of algae....suctioning doesn't remove them...removes the plants as well from the soil. Its all over...growing from substrate...on rocks....on plants.



















any suggestions? From what I read..this is supposedly the good algae that is normal. It is what SAE and amano shrimp can eat.


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## bigfishy

charlie1 said:


> bigfishy, i`m curious by your question, is there a quality issue with some lilly pspe ?, if so can you state them.
> Regards


I brought the cade lily pipe set from AI many many months ago. After a close examination I spotted out a tiny chip in the out flow pipe. I took it back to the shop and we went thru dozen of cade boxes. In the end, I accepted my original set as they all have tiny imperfection.


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## jarmilca

vraev said:


> The start of algae....suctioning doesn't remove them...removes the plants as well from the soil. Its all over...growing from substrate...on rocks....on plants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> any suggestions? From what I read..this is supposedly the good algae that is normal. It is what SAE and amano shrimp can eat.


It looks like a filamentous algae. You can try to remove it by rolling a used toothbrush over it. Not too many fish will eat this algae (I think pencilfish would eat it) but shrimp will eat it. This algae can spread quite quickly so try to remove (reduce) it as soon as possible.


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## vraev

Thanks! Btw....can anyone tell me if its a bad idea to "rennovate" this layout? I want to raise the substrate level in the background...that means I will have to remove the HC...which will again set it back.


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## vraev

pH: 6.4
Ammonia: 5ppm... toxic ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrite: 0.5ppm

Just started using Big Als bisupport last weekend. Today started using Seachem Stability. I think the nitrite is a good sign. lol...also..there is almost 1-2ppm pure ammonia from my tap water...pH is 7.4-7.6. So I am replacing the APi conditioner with Seachem Prime. 

Question...do u think with the low pH and use of stability...can I start adding SAE and amano shrimp? I really want to get the algae taken care of. Its crazy..hard to remove even with a brush...I am pulling out my HC cuba that just finished the melt stage and looking good.


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## Boogerboy

I could be wrong but I'm not sure this algae is bad for your plants. Just a part of new tank syndrome and will clear up in a few Weeks (keep ripping it out though) better to address these problems without getting help from fish if possible (besides from the looks of it you're about to go through a nitrite spike)

Also what is your photo period? Fertilization? Water changes?


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## vraev

No fertilization yet. I just got my CO2 regulator and started CO2 intake at 3bps yesterday. love the diffuser...soo cool.

ANyways...I see that seachem excel is the best to boost plants and starve algae. I will get some the next time I visit AI...I also need to pick up the algae scraper for the glass.

I have been doing water changes once every 2 days...pretty big ones...40-60%. It has been 2 weeks to the day since set up. 

the LFS Big Als says I should stop doing such big changes and let the bio filter establish. but Amano stuff says do water changes every day even for first 2 weeks.

photoperiod: 9-10h.


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## Boogerboy

Start fertilizing, have you decided which regimen? Only tried EI personally. You can mix your own with the sticky in this thread or if your lazy like i am buy pre mixed from jimmyjam 

The active ingredient in excel is an algaecide but you need to overdose it to actually combat algae growth, never done this personally.

Co2 bps readings don't mean much, only for fine tuning, i suggest you turn to a drop checker.
Also take your photo period down. I am 5 Weeks in now and still on 6.5h, has done wonders to knock out most of my algae problems until the plants take control.

From what i understand bio support is basically snake oil, because the bacteria in it would be dead before it reaches your tank. I only do weekly large water changes as per EI. Many big water changes will cause fluctuations in water chemistry which may lead to algae.

Just my $.02


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## Symplicity

I find you do not need to dose fertz on a new tank for at least 3 months or else you will have a huge algae breakout. (as in next day breakout)

I find ADA can support heavy plant grown without any fertz for a very long time.


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## Boogerboy

Symplicity said:


> I find you do not need to dose fertz on a new tank for at least 3 months or else you will have a huge algae breakout. (as in next day breakout)
> 
> I find ADA can support heavy plant grown without any fertz for a very long time.


Nah, been dosing since day 1.

First / second week half dose
after that full dose.

No huge breakout, just the usual new tank syndrome GDA which is now gone. Tom Barr recommends dosing from day 1 (he said even a full dose won't cause algae, but it'll waste ferts)


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## vraev

yup! I am among the lazy ones. lol! I rather prefer getting a tried and tested thing than bother wasting even more time. 

actually...the drop checker is just dark green...I am using calaqua's calibrator and the indicator from the AI package. It hasn't changed color. But when I tried checking pH earlier today....pH was less than 6.2. The color of the water was yellow...not the lime green yellow that is the lowest on the chart...but actually yellow. I think my pH may be like high 5 or 6. 
Nitrite is off the chart too.... from 0.5 it is now deep pink/purple.....greater than 1ppm. Ammonia is actually going down...2.5ppm from 5ppm. 

I guess my cycling is coming along. 

I just need to get this algae under control. I try taking out stuff everyday...but it grows back even more and now it is everywhere in the tank. I can't even get it off the rocks. I need somthing to nuke it. 

I guess I'll stop the water changing till the cycle is stable? I rather prefer getting a easily purchasable and trued and tested fert. 

How good are the seachem ones? I agree...I want to cut the light down..but my apt has too much light. Now that daylight is from 6AM till atleast 8PM ro so in canada...there is always light in my apt. Also not to mention for my carinvirous plants I have a 12-14h lgiht cycle. Wouldn't that low light actually cause more algae growth? I can't cover it up either..the whole point was to make a nice ADA display...not with like crappy black boards to shield external lights.


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## Boogerboy

vraev said:


> How good are the seachem ones? I agree...I want to cut the light down..but my apt has too much light. Now that daylight is from 6AM till atleast 8PM ro so in canada...there is always light in my apt. Also not to mention for my carinvirous plants I have a 12-14h lgiht cycle. Wouldn't that low light actually cause more algae growth? I can't cover it up either..the whole point was to make a nice ADA display...not with like crappy black boards to shield external lights.


Seachem ones are alright, the DIY formula is much better though, and you can buy it pre-mixed from some people for much cheaper than the seachem stuff.

Also, yikes. Looks like we've found your algae problem? Your tank should be getting little to no light when its lights are off. At least turning off the tank lights for a bit more will help, over 8 hours is a bit too much for a new tank. Give the 6.5 a try, nothing to lose (your plants won't die). Make sure it's not getting any direct sunlight also, that's a huge contributor. Low light won't grow algae, as algae need light to grow. 90% of the time algae happens because of excesses. Excesses of Nitrates and Lights (excess CO2 won't really matter, some people say it helps reduce algae but I haven't seen any hard evidence) HOWEVER too little CO2 will result in algae, so if there aren't any inhabitants it's best to err on the side of overgassing.


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## brianc

and growing algae begins 

A new tank I recently started seems to be going through the same thing. Gave it a blackout period and started cleaning the algae. After turning the lights back on the algae seems to given up. 

me: 1
algae : 0


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## Boogerboy

brianc said:


> and growing algae begins
> 
> A new tank I recently started seems to be going through the same thing. Gave it a blackout period and started cleaning the algae. After turning the lights back on the algae seems to given up.
> 
> me: 1
> algae : 0


Might be a problem with more sensitive plants like HC, especially that hasn't grown in. But a blackout is a good idea if you don't want to wait out the natural algae growth that happens while your tank is finding a balance. Never done one myself, people mostly do it for GDA and GSA, wonder how it works for filamentous hair/thread algae.


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## vraev

Brain...did u have any cleanup crew in the tank during the period? Ottos or SAE or AS?

Also how many days did u do the blackout for? did u leave the CO2 running? were plants ok? which plants do u have?


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## brianc

Nothing but cherry shrimp, amano shrimp, some corys, and cardinal tetras. I left the light off for 2 weeks. There were some HC in there as well. They definitely started browning a bit and some died but they all came back to life once I turned the light back on.

No co2, just high light in a small tank.


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## vraev

hmm....but I am assuming if u had cleanup crew in there, u had a cycled filter to begin with.

Its getting annoying. The thread algae/hair algae are just overrunning everything. Impossible to pick it off. And nitrites are off the charts...ammonia is still going down. Haven't done water change in 3 days now. 

I am getting my riccia stones tomorrow.. I am seriously considering tearing it down....all the way and doing an emmersed start.  should have done that from the beginning.


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## brianc

You are just going to have to wait until the tank matures. Yes the filter was from an established tank. You could just wait it out then start cleaning it up afterwards.


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## vraev

hmm....does not doing water changes help the cycle go faster? I know most of the bacteria is in the substrate and filter....but I am sure water changes do throw them off a bit? Would it help if I leave it for a week...then once the tank is ready...replant everything the way I want it....get rid of the stem plants...and then a couple more days run just to check parameters and bring in the animals.


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