# My 2 year battle dealing with bryopsis



## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

When I set up my 30 gallon tank, the intent was for small fish, nps corals and some other unusual critters. Despite the fact that it shares the same water supply, fuge and sump as the 175 gallon tank, the small tank developed its own environment to the extent that things would grow in the small tank that would not grow in the 175, ever.
Including bryopsis.
Which I have been battling since the I set up the 30 gallon tank.
I have 2 different strains of bryopsis. One that looks like bent grass, the other looks like ferns.
So I got a sea hare. Tried these 3 times. They would chow down on the bryopsis for a day, and then keel over dead.
Got a lawnmower blenny. He is still in the tank, ignoring the bryopsis.
Tried a small Kole tang. Same result as the sea hare. Would eat it for a week and then disappear. My conclusion: the bryopsis I have is toxic to animals.

Got a dozen small hermit crabs. Totally ignored the stuff. All they did was kill the cerith snails for their shells.

Got pin cushion urchins. They just go around the stuff, too. Got 2 of those thick tentacle urchins that are supposed to eat everything. They do, except not bryopsis.

So next step was to go chemical and raise the magnesium using Kent Mag tech. Except now I am dosing the whole system, not just the 30 gallon tank, which meant my montis loved it, the leathers not so much.

This had mixed results and I did see some slowing down in growth but it did not eradicate the bryopsis. I read that I could shoot full strength Kent Magnesium onto the algae and that would do the trick......nope.

Then I tried hydrogen peroxide. Directly onto the bryopsis, it worked wonders! It was amazing! I did this for a few weeks and would see patches of the bryopsis turning white and disappearing. I managed to get rid of 2 or 3 patches this way, so one Saturday, decided to go Rambo on the stuff and get rid of it all.

Bad idea. Hydrogen peroxide kills marine bryopsis and also kills marine bacteria. I changed the conditions so much that it allowed cyano to bloom in the tank, which also fed into the refugium. It took me 8 months to get rid of the cyano in the tank, but my fuge is still suffering and is not a very happy tank still.

So if you want to do hydrogen peroxide, do it in very small doses over many months and don't expect to clear out 100%.

Then I thought, well maybe I just pull the offending rocks out. Sold one large birds nest, tried to isolate other rocks, but I have several montis and chalices that have encrusted, which meant I either had to start over with new rock or live with the bryopsis.

Decided living with bryopsis might not be too bad. Went to a regiment of pulling out large clusters to keep the ferns from overwhelming some corals and letting the grass stuff be. Not a good idea, as the stuff sends out roots, so all it did is keep spreading.

At around the same time our lanthanum chloride doser tube failed and we had a phosphate spike (as in: as high as Mount Everest) which, for the small tank was disasterous because it is the tank that gets over fed for the nps corals.

I had bryopsis growing on the glass, growing on the urchins, on snails, on corals, on power heads and I think it would have grown on the fish, if it could.

Time to find a new approach. Which meant more reading.

I read something March from Frag box wrote on his website. He said the only thing that got rid of bryopsis for him was emerald crabs. I like emerald crabs, except they flip everything. They do a good job for me with bubble algae, but I also know once they go in a tank, they are hard to get out.

I also read turbo snails will eat the stuff. 

My experience with animals eating bryopsis was not great, but I was starting to run out of choices, so decided it was time for more snails and emerald crabs.

I got 10 crabs and 30 snails.

A week later..........

No bryopsis anywhere! The glass is clean, the urchins are clean, the gyre is perfectly clean, the stuff that was growing on the tips of the gorgonia is gone and my tank looks awesome.

As an added benefit the blue clove polyps that were growing over everything are being eaten away as well. My zoas are not being touched yet, but I know as they run out of food these will be next. So I am starting to move some of my all star bryopsis crew down to the fuge to see if they will deal with the red velvet algae and cyano in there.

This has been a 2 year battle and finally, I feel like things are improving. 

Yeah!


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## Mikeylikes (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks for sharing Cheryl. 

Sorry to hear of your lengthy battle! I had bryopsis as well but raising magnesium levels worked for me. Maybe I got lucky ... Dunno. I believe I kept mine elevated at 1750 using Kent Tech for like 2 months.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Mikeylikes said:


> I had bryopsis as well but raising magnesium levels worked for me. Maybe I got lucky ... Dunno. I believe I kept mine elevated at 1750 using Kent Tech for like 2 months.


I agree. The Kent Tech may have done the trick, but keeping a 250 gallon total volume at elevated mag levels takes a lot of product and puts stress on soft corals. I think I was going through 2 bottles a week to get it up to 1750 and keep it there and it was freaking me out about the leathers, so just couldn't sustain it for too long.
I chickened out looking for a better solution. The emerald crabs worked fine. However I now have to catch them with long tweezers, and they are strong little suckers who don't like to let go.
Will keep a couple in the tank and the rest on stand by in the fuge.


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## Mikeylikes (Nov 22, 2013)

I lure the crabs out with nori!

If you are looking to get rid of some id take a couple if your hands.


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

Great information, I applaud you for stepping up and sharing issues you have and the solution that you came up with. I wish more people that are having troubles would post and share. 

I understand when we are going through a issue we sometimes are afraid to share. But we shouldn't it makes us all better when we share good and bad.

I found emeralds are great eating the algae, caulerpa, bubble but when they get big they tend to want meaty foods.

yes and getting them out is a real issue. I'm not sure but after all my algae was gone empty snails shells started showing up. I started to feed nori and sinking algae wafers for supplement even and when hungry they scurry out to get it.
I had and have again razor caulerpa. it was all but totally gone and then I removed the emeralds and its back again. I tried all the chemicals and inverts that you did but nothing worked. Have not tried kents.


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## Bullet (Apr 19, 2014)

Nice report Ms C and glad that you were able to post your "history" dealing with this problem 
Good to know about the crabs and turbos - I'm not a big fan of crabs because they can do some damage elsewhere in the tank but maybe I need to change my opinion


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

I told her this 6 months ago....but noooo...don't listen to me 

Good to hear it worked!


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)

altcharacter said:


> I told her this 6 months ago....but noooo...don't listen to me
> 
> Good to hear it worked!


So you're saying you've told a woman what to do before and they did it?


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

So true! I can only suggest it and hopefully six months down the road they do it.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

altcharacter said:


> I told her this 6 months ago....but noooo...don't listen to me
> 
> Good to hear it worked!


I think what I actually heard was "blah blah blah blah, where's the beer?"


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## Mikeylikes (Nov 22, 2013)

Crayon said:


> I think what I actually heard was "blah blah blah blah, where's the beer?"


now that was funny ...


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

Crayon said:


> When I set up my 30 gallon tank, the intent was for small fish, nps corals and some other unusual critters. Despite the fact that it shares the same water supply, fuge and sump as the 175 gallon tank, the small tank developed its own environment to the extent that things would grow in the small tank that would not grow in the 175, ever.
> Including bryopsis.
> Which I have been battling since the I set up the 30 gallon tank.
> I have 2 different strains of bryopsis. One that looks like bent grass, the other looks like ferns.
> ...


Congrats on this! I know from experience that dealing with bryopsis can be a nerve wracking experience, especially coz it takes so long to see any sort of progress. Any bryopsis battle where you gain ground is worth being happy about 

However, your account of your experience makes me cringe....and begs a whole pile of questions

1. When Googling plans of attack in dealing with bryopsis, the overwhelming response from results to accounts via board posts, points to slowly increasing your magnesium as the only _tried and true_ way of responsibly treating bryopsis...

So, why was using mag your second approach? ...why wasn't it your first step?

Tangs, blennies, hares do not eat (healthy) bryopsis for a whole host of reasons ....toxicity and prolly it's not too palatable to begin with. This is a given when dealing with bryopsis in particular.

Why elevate mag so high?? You should go no more than 1500-1600, and you need to get there as slowly as possible! 2 to 3 months is ideal.

If you rush it and you elevate too high, corals will show stress....and the ones that show stress first will likely be the SPS and softies, like xeniids, etc. Softies, including leathers can easily handle up to 1600mag if acclimated properly (my tank is almost all softies and it's at 1500-1600 and stable as ever *knocks on wood* lol)

2. Never, ever use hydrogren peroxide in the way you did...it's too dangerous for the animals and life in the tank. The life/bacteria on the rock is not the problem, it's the algae (and the phosphates feeding it). Using peroxide to kill bryopsis is like using napalm on an entire forest with animals and plants, when all you want to get rid off is the one species of grass......hydrogen peroxide would be extremely dangerous in closed systems of 30gals.

3. What is the source of your phosphates? the food feeding the bryopsis? I read you feed heavily as there are NPS coral. How do you ensure excess food that is not consumed by the NPS coral and fish is removed?

3. The reason why your 30gal was covered in algae while the main 175gal system was not, even when they're plumbed together is because you, through no fault of your own, essentially turned your 30gal into an algae scrubber. The condition in the 30gal were so perfect for algae to grow that it had no reason to grow in the main tank. Look at the differences in how you keep the 30gal as opposed to the 175 and you'll have an indication of why this was so.

Plumbed systems are very common in the hobby, but the fault people make is trying to create completely different biotopes while sharing the same 'infrastructure'. Sorta like killing two birds with one stone.......don't do this, you're asking for trouble.

FME....keep either crabs or snails, never both at the same time in the same tank. All crabs are opportunistic; they will predate and kill your snails, it's just a matter of time. They're going nuts on your bryopsis now, but that will end in time and they'll move on to other tasty stuff and you'll be back where you started.

Increase mag...it's the only way to get rid of bryopsis....the only way.



Crayon said:


> This had mixed results and I did see some slowing down in growth but it did not eradicate the bryopsis. I read that I could shoot full strength Kent Magnesium onto the algae and that would do the trick......nope.


You're not being patient enough.....wait longer for the mag to do its thing. Don't rush this or anything in this hobby. Don't put any faith in anecdotal responses out there......don't dose full strength anything on anything...

Magnesium does not eradicate bryopsis as much as it starves or prevents it from getting it's nutrients and slows its growth considerably. The bryopsis will start to weaken and even fades in colour. It's at this stage that normal predators like tangs and blennies and hares can jump in on the action an accelerate its demise.

Sorry for the long response. Anyways....congrats again....bryopsis sucks!

z


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Patwa,
I truly appreciate the response, however you made a couple of comments that I want to address.
1. Animal control was my first approach because it is not chemical. In my humble opinion it provided a natural ongoing, and potentially permanent solution. Ultimately, it is the solution that has also worked best, for me.
2. I don't say anywhere in my post over what period of time I took to raise the mag levels in the system. I also don't say how many bottles of Kent Tech Mag I had to buy to raise the mag for a system who's total volume is 250 gallons. As this was a 2 year battle, let's just say I spent close to a year trying this approach and a fair amount of that time was in trying to raise the levels slowly and then the balance of the year was trying to keep the levels elevated. As I can only supervise my tanks on weekends, this is tricky.
3. Same applies with hydrogen peroxide. My first use included a 2ml syringe which is how much I was using. When you goggle using hydrogen peroxide, there is not a lot of direction on when to stop or how much to use.
4. Feeding: Come and visit and see how it's set up. I think it has been optimized for best food export. The 30 return is split between the fuge and main tank intake chamber. So food not consumed in the 30 is exported to the main tank or the fuge for consumption by filter feeders or corals in those two tanks.

The bryopsis issue drove me nuts and I read everything I could and asked everyone I talked to over the last two years. Yes, I did read that Kent Mag was the most common way to deal with eradicating it. However it is not the only way, and ultimately for me, not the best way. My circumstances are unique, I feel my patience was good in dealing with the issue and trying the methods that are most commonly used. Every tank has it's own ecology and biology and if someone else out in the salt universe does not succeed using Kent Tech Mag, then hopefully my post provides an alternate solution. My post stands as an alternate when all else fails.

Emerald crabs work. They get a bad rap from a lot of people, but I like them. When they are finished clearing out the blue clove polyps in the 30 gallon tank, I will move them down to the fuge.

I have kept 2 emerald crabs in my 5 gallon tank with sexy shrimp, 3 snails and my trimmas. They are not opportunistic in that tank and have not killed any livestock.
Hermit crabs are different. I have seen them go after cerith snails, but have never been able to document if it's a snail that was dying prior to being attacked or a snail that was killed by the crab.

These are my experiences.


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

Glad you responded...i'm really keen to hear what you thought! ..although i'm weary of turning this into a pissing contest (yeah, I know my posts don't come across as friendly sometimes...)



Crayon said:


> Patwa,
> 1. Animal control was my first approach because it is not chemical. In my humble opinion it provided a natural ongoing, and potentially permanent solution. Ultimately, it is the solution that has also worked best, for me.


When you say it is not "chemical", it almost seems you're viewing "chemical" as a bad thing - that it's something you're trying to *avoid* in lieu of other approaches. Is that correct? If so, I commend you for being vigilant, but you're barking up the wrong tree. If you think dosing magnesium (coz I can't think of any other approach to fighting bryopsis that could be deemed "chemical"....i'm ignoring peroxide as that's just a waste of time) would be more of a negative approach than any other, you need to do more reading on the role magnesium plays in the home reef tank. Mag is just as important as the other two. Chemicals are not a bad thing.

Dosing (magnesium) is VERY MUCH a natural and permanent solution....i'm not sure why you think it isn't (as per your quote)...magnesium exists naturally in seawater.

Of course, if you're not referring to magnesium when you say "chemicals", then what is it that you're referring to?

Animal control is also not the best way to deal with algae outbreaks. I dunno which book you're reading that says to fight an outbreak of a particular algae, you need to buy this animal, and then if that animal dies/doesn't eat it then buy another, and if that doesn't work, then buy a different animal altogether. Whoever wrote _that_ book that says that is responsible reefkeeping should get his/her ass thrown off the boat.

Animals are not meant to be used in that way (and this is VERY different from someone who buys a yellow tang or foxface to keep algae in check over the course of the lifetime of a tank - like me and many others on this board).



Crayon said:


> 2. I don't say anywhere in my post over what period of time I took to raise the mag levels in the system. I also don't say how many bottles of Kent Tech Mag I had to buy to raise the mag for a system who's total volume is 250 gallons. As this was a 2 year battle, let's just say I spent close to a year trying this approach and a fair amount of that time was in trying to raise the levels slowly and then the balance of the year was trying to keep the levels elevated. As I can only supervise my tanks on weekends, this is tricky.


Kent Tech M is good, but it's a waste of money. Just head to BRS and get their cheap magnesium recipe and you're set. Even epsom salts from Shoppers can work.

At the risk of going off on a tangent and drawing the ire of your GTAA friends - did you ever give a thought to maybe you're stretching yourself too thin with all these tanks? That is, a 250gal tank is a VERY EXPENSIVE reef tank, any way you cut it. I trust you were made aware of the exceedingly high costs of upkeep for a tank of such a large size....right?

If you make your bed, you better be prepared to sleep in it, right? - if a 250gal tank is so big you can't afford to buy enough of Component A to fight algae, and you have to fore-go buying Component B coz Component C is cheaper or whatever, and you have 3 other tanks to take care of and have no time to do it unless it's the weekend, you're essentially in over your head, right? Isn't that obvious? Or am I reading too much into this?

Bryopsis can be dealt with easily in under 6 months....and usually within 3 months, with just magnesium, that's a well known fact. Two years gets a big WTF....well, from me at least 



Crayon said:


> 3. Same applies with hydrogen peroxide. My first use included a 2ml syringe which is how much I was using. When you goggle using hydrogen peroxide, there is not a lot of direction on when to stop or how much to use.


There's not a lot of good information in Google on how to use it because, frankly, it's a risky approach and one that reeks of danger. I would hope that anyone reading this thread avoids using hydrogren peroxide to treat bryopsis....it's excellent for dunking zoanthid colonies that have fungal or bacterial infections, but that's where it ends. Stay away from peroxide for bryopsis.



Crayon said:


> 4. Feeding: Come and visit and see how it's set up. I think it has been optimized for best food export. The 30 return is split between the fuge and main tank intake chamber. So food not consumed in the 30 is exported to the main tank or the fuge for consumption by filter feeders or corals in those two tanks.


That may be, and I trust your plumbing and logic is sound from your point of view, but if what you're *also* saying is true, that your 30gal had the unwavering ability to grow algae fast and furiously, then you have a surplus of nutrients that are not being exported quickly and efficiently enough.

My suggestion would be to try and get a more firm handle on your nutrient problem and fix it......coz no amount of Emerald crabs will help you in the _long term_. You have an excessive nutrient issue that feeds the algae, period...if that is not dealt with, the algae will come back.



Crayon said:


> The bryopsis issue drove me nuts and I read everything I could and asked everyone I talked to over the last two years. Yes, I did read that Kent Mag was the most common way to deal with eradicating it. However it is not the only way, and ultimately for me, not the best way. My circumstances are unique, I feel my patience was good in dealing with the issue and trying the methods that are most commonly used. Every tank has it's own ecology and biology and if someone else out in the salt universe does not succeed using Kent Tech Mag, then hopefully my post provides an alternate solution. My post stands as an alternate when all else fails.
> 
> Emerald crabs work. They get a bad rap from a lot of people, but I like them. When they are finished clearing out the blue clove polyps in the 30 gallon tank, I will move them down to the fuge.
> 
> ...


All crabs, even Emeralds, are opportunistic (omnivorous) feeders. Doesn't matter if you don't witness it first hand in your tank. It's in their nature...if they don't do it now in front of you, they'll do it in the future, when you're not looking.

That is, depending on the situation, they will eat whatever it is they can find, forage and kill to give them the nutrients they need. However, crabs are specialized feeders....some have waving pom-poms for claws that collect food floating by. Some have spoon-shaped claws, like Emeralds, that allow them to easily pick algae fronds, but some have pointy tips that allow them to pierce and pinch their prey. But they are all omnivores to the core. They can and will eat whatever they want, it's just a matter of time.

And yes, I do believe they work on bryopsis....not doubting you on that!


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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Wow. Just wow. Way to Hobbisplain! 
There are worse things than coming off "unfriendly"... Hyper-condensending comes to mind. Geez man, listen to yourself.


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## goobafish (Jan 27, 2015)

fesso clown said:


> Wow. Just wow. Way to Hobbisplain!
> There are worse things than coming off "unfriendly"... Hyper-condensending comes to mind. Geez man, listen to yourself.


It would be a little more palatable if the information was correct and backed by any sort of evidence. As is he's presented his opinion on quite a few topics as facts, most of which are not even the popular voice of experience of other aquarists, let alone based on scientific evidence. It's also not very nice to come off so critical of a person's approach to a problem.

I would love to see some evidence that indicates high magnesium levels will always eradicate bryopsis. As far as I am aware there is no scientific basis for this claim, nor is there even popular consent. Maybe some information as to why Hydrogen Peroxide, which when added to water dissociates into water and and H02- (an oxidant), would cause harm to a reef in small amounts?


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## TBemba (Jan 11, 2010)




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## fesso clown (Nov 15, 2011)

Screw the sciencey opinions, the parts that got me were:
260 Gallons is a lot of tank for a little lady...
And 
This is an expensive hobby you know....
As if Cherly has to worry about money, if you knew anything Patwa you'd know that Cherly made millions as a pornographer in the late 80's... Expensive? Pfffft. Whatever!


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

fesso clown said:


> Wow. Just wow. Way to Hobbisplain!
> There are worse things than coming off "unfriendly"... Hyper-condensending comes to mind. Geez man, listen to yourself.


haha, I do!

It's one thing to congratulate the OP on winning her two year battle with bryopsis, coz that's an accomplishment in and of itself! but it's another thing to sit there and read it took her TWO YEARS for her to win it and not realize how ass-backwards that battle must've been. Two years!? ....to get rid of bryopsis? and none of you want to know WHY? or even critique her approach for the next sap who has this problem and is looking for real, solid advice when they search this forum for advice on getting rid of bryopsis??

If all you guys want to do is pat her on the back for a job well done and move on, then go for it!

All I see is someone who didn't approach the problem logically, was too afraid to follow through on a tried and true method and who happily used animals to fix a problem that is ultimately caused by a nutrient imbalance, that she *seems* to not be keen on looking into

so yeah, if you call that condescending...yikes! .....you guys are a touchy bunch!



goobafish said:


> It would be a little more palatable if the information was correct and backed by any sort of evidence. As is he's presented his opinion on quite a few topics as facts, most of which are not even the popular voice of experience of other aquarists, let alone based on scientific evidence. It's also not very nice to come off so critical of a person's approach to a problem.
> 
> I would love to see some evidence that indicates high magnesium levels will always eradicate bryopsis. As far as I am aware there is no scientific basis for this claim, nor is there even popular consent. Maybe some information as to why Hydrogen Peroxide, which when added to water dissociates into water and and H02- (an oxidant), would cause harm to a reef in small amounts?


There's a pile of information out there on how jacking up your mag levels will starve bryopsis (read: not "eradicate") ....I don't need to provide proof, it's well documented out there........spend an hour on Google reading results and articles and you'll see, don't take my WORD for it.

As with anything I write and pretty much anything written by anyone on this board...it's ALL from experience, unless they say right up front that they're an academic or researcher, etc.

Why would you assume it's anything other than that? I'm a hobbyist...not a scientist or marine biologist....and there's some things I know, and somethings I don't. Same deal with fesso, you, the OP and anyone else on here

enjoy that popcorn folks....looks like going to be a fiesty day on GTAA!


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

fesso clown said:


> As if Cherly has to worry about money, if you knew anything Patwa you'd know that Cherly made millions as a porn star in the late 80's... Expensive? Pfffft. Whatever!


lol she's Debbie?


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

fesso clown said:


> Cherly made millions as a porn star in the late 80's... Expensive? Pfffft. Whatever!


80's??? WTF! My last gig was less than a year ago!

Shessh! Just cause I like it old school........


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## Rookie2013 (Jan 17, 2013)

great insight Patwa and yes the the real outcome of any forum is to help each other's and any new rookie like me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tom g (Jul 8, 2009)

*Wowser*

Stick to cooking ribs dude. .....apparently you are great at that as well....


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

I know, I know......I come off as a know-it-all, esp after posts where I rant in the hopes of getting to the bottom of something.......i'll be the first to admit it. 

Apologies to anyone if they took offence to my posts!  ....fesso, goobs...sorry, fellas! And ...especially the OP ...hopefully when she gets a break from filming she can cuss me out or gimme her comments. 

Anyhoo...all I want is dialog. All this 'good on ya' for a job well done is cool and all, but if there's a question and comment that needs asking or telling, where do I ask it? private message? no.... go yell on a mountain? nope...go to MAST? (nope, not my cup of tea)....keep my mouth shut? hells no.

It's right here, in this forum.

Trump sucks.

z


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

tom g said:


> Stick to cooking ribs dude. .....apparently you are great at that as well....


wow...bet you been saving that zinger for a while now eh? glad you got it all out


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

Patwa said:


> I know, I know......I come off as a know-it-all, esp after posts where I rant in the hopes of getting to the bottom of something.......i'll be the first to admit it.
> 
> Apologies to anyone if they took offence to my posts!  ....fesso, goobs...sorry, fellas! And ...especially the OP ...hopefully when she gets a break from filming she can cuss me out or gimme her comments.
> 
> ...


Hey, it's great that you want to start a discussion, and I've always found your posts quite informative, but one thing that bugs me, and this is something I've noticed on other reefing forums as well, is how dogmatic reefers can be.

Yes, there is a wealth of experience out there, but ultimately, this is a hobby where many of us, myself especially, want to experiment with different solutions to a problem. So the OP wanted to try alternative solutions to her algae problem. So what? Maybe she learned more about the hobby by failing than she ever could by using the "right" method.

I understand that the intention is to save the OP some headache in the future, but you know, this hobby is a journey, not a destination. Sometimes it pays to take the less traveled road.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Very well said solarz!

In general:
Some people like to hear their own voice so they tend to be a bit louder than others.

Nothing wrong with that. As patwa said, it's a forum so he has the right to say something. No need to get butthurt over it.

Although, some people actually like their tanks to be different than others. Myself and Cheryl rend to overfeed our livestock because we want to. So, you figure out how to deal with it. Very simple actually...

If anyone outhere feels their way is better, you have your right to your opinion. But it's still an opinion! As we all know everyone has assholes and opinions. It's just which end the opinion comes out of that might make a difference.


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## Rookie2013 (Jan 17, 2013)

Every system is unique and no one knows it better than the person taking care of it. I admit it is a learning curve for us all we r no expert. This is an open forum and people will chime in for any questions/problems you may have in their own style. Trump sucks but GTA rocks....you guys are all awesome people Happy Reefing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

This forum is an amazing equalizer. We all come from varying backgrounds, with different experiences and equally diverse day jobs. We start out with no idea to whom we are speaking to in our posts and as time progresses start to learn the personalities of each poster. It definitely colors the discussions and we come to expect a certain quality of conversation from certain people.

Patwa, you did not disappoint. As much as I would love to debate the merits of certain approaches to dealing with bryopsis, you cannot argue the success of my approach. My tank is 100% bryopsis free.

So we will leave that topic for a second, as I would like to point out a few comments which deserve to be addressed.

First, let me preface this by saying you need to come to the bbq this year. Stick your chin out and man up. Debate me in person and learn the rationale behind why I made certain decisions and stop hiding behind the blanket of an on line forum with no face. I don't bite, even though right now I can feel my claws out.



Patwa said:


> did you ever give a thought to maybe you're stretching yourself too thin with all these tanks? That is, a 250gal tank is a VERY EXPENSIVE reef tank, any way you cut it. I trust you were made aware of the exceedingly high costs of upkeep for a tank of such a large size....right?


Now, I am really trying to avoid the concept that for what ever reason, I must have someone TELL me how expensive something is. I am sure you did not mean to imply that I could not come to that conclusion on my own, right? Is this where I say, yes, I do have my own credit card, too? Or even, heaven forbid, I might negotiate my own car purchase?

I must say Zach, it feels like a lot of testosterone, but honestly, we have never met, so I will chalk it up to ignorance instead.



> If you make your bed, you better be prepared to sleep in it, right? - if a 250gal tank is so big you can't afford to buy enough of Component A to fight algae, and you have to fore-go buying Component B coz Component C is cheaper or whatever, and you have 3 other tanks to take care of and have no time to do it unless it's the weekend, you're essentially in over your head, right? Isn't that obvious? Or am I reading too much into this?


You are so completely off base with this comment that I will simply say, IGNORE.



> Bryopsis can be dealt with easily in under 6 months....and usually within 3 months, with just magnesium, that's a well known fact. Two years gets a big WTF....well, from me at least


Well, that's nice and I am glad you think this should be "dealt with" in six months. Does that mean that because it took me 2 years I am either: a) an idiot, b) incompetent or c)a girl

I absolutely did not rush my decisions and gave each attempt measured and sufficient time to run it's course. Thus 2 years. As noted earlier, my tank is bryopsis free. Wasn't that the point? It is not manageable, or contained, or "under control". It is gone. You are welcome to visit to see, if you don't believe me.



> And yes, I do believe they (emerald crabs) work on bryopsis....not doubting you on that!


Wow, that was a lot of effort to get to the same point.

Ultimately, you questioned my methods, chastised me for the wrong sequence, crapped on my ability to manage my life, which includes my tanks and then at the end, agreed that what I did worked?

Why didn't you just post a "way to go Cheryl"? Would have taken way less effort.

But then, we all show affection in different ways, so this must be your little nudge nudge wink wink.
Luv ya back Patwa.....


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## goobafish (Jan 27, 2015)

Patwa said:


> There's a pile of information out there on how jacking up your mag levels will starve bryopsis (read: not "eradicate") ....I don't need to provide proof, it's well documented out there........spend an hour on Google reading results and articles and you'll see, don't take my WORD for it.
> 
> As with anything I write and pretty much anything written by anyone on this board...it's ALL from experience, unless they say right up front that they're an academic or researcher, etc.
> 
> ...


My day job is as a researcher, but that's beyond the point, as there is a lot that is not scientifically researched and based on experience. I have spent hours researching both topics, and there is nowhere near unanimous consent amongst hobbyists on either topic, nor is their any documented scientific proof of what you are claiming (actually the opposite can be found). In the case of Bryopsis and Magnesium, it is far from well documented. The majority of cases claim that it is in fact some other component of Tech M that kills the Bryopsis than the Magnesium itself.
In fact, chemistry would indicate that the Hydrogen Peroxide comments are wholly false, you are adding a chemical that almost immediately turns into water and oxygen, in small amounts.

I am not going to argue my personal experiences with both of these, as they are irrelevant. What works for someone may not work for another, that is why there are so many different solutions when you search online. Making dogmatic statements which you are claiming as absolutes, but are absolutely not, is certainly not a good way to help reefers.

Anyway, way to go Cheryl! Its a hard one to beat and there isn't a lot of good information on fighting it.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)




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## Rookie2013 (Jan 17, 2013)

I think the bottom line is if Cheryl was able to take care of the bryopsis problem and thts all it matters. To provide options/solutions is a good thing but things get tricky when you try to imply over other's. Lets be friends appreciate each others help each others and enjoy this wonderful hobby rather than being personal...Cheryl I don't know you but reading your comments I commend you, salute you how calmly you have handled the situation professionaly and Patwa I don't know you either but your enthusiasm is well admired. You both among others are asset to this forum and hobby overall and from a newcomer's perspective WOULD LIKE BOTH OF YOU ONBOARD. 

Way to go Cheryl I don't think I can say job well done as thts for someone who is expert or have accomplished great success in this hobby and I feel I am too small to say that but nonetheless Congrats on your conquer.


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## Taipan (Feb 12, 2012)

I actually stumbled onto this thread by using the forum _Search_ feature using the word "Porn" as the search parameter. (I'll put money down that people will now duplicate the search.....in case they haven't already  )


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## fury165 (Aug 21, 2010)

Taipan said:


> I actually stumbled onto this thread by using the forum _Search_ feature using the word "Porn" as the search parameter. (I'll put money down that people will now duplicate the search.....in case they haven't already  )


So... I'm curious why you were search for porn on GTAA? &#128563;


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## Rookie2013 (Jan 17, 2013)

@ fury LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

fury165 said:


> So... I'm curious why you were search for porn on GTAA? &#128563;


I just tried this and there are actually 68 threads in the search result.


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## Taipan (Feb 12, 2012)

fury165 said:


> So... I'm curious why you were search for porn on GTAA? &#128563;


Uhm......you want the truth or do you want me to lie? D'oh! I was using "Coral Porn" as the search parameters.....yeah that's what I'll go with.  Either that or I forgot which site I was on.....



solarz said:


> I just tried this and there are actually 68 threads in the search result.


.....Now try that on a site like RC.....and be amazed. It's amazing (or not so - depending on your point of view) how the mind works. Abstract or base instinct? You decide.


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

Shit, been a while since I read this thread, but glad to see it lived on for a while in the interim.

And how did I miss lil Tom G's "rib" jab at me.....yeah, Tommy boy, i'm still _so pissed_ I didn't follow alt's order that I should be cooking enough ribs for 40 people, instead of 10-15 I was hoping to feed. Yeah, Tom, i'm such a prick for choosing to let those hungry reefers starve at the BBQ instead of feeding their empty belies.........Crissakes, man....if you're gonna try and attack my character, pick something where I actually show I screwed up and run with that.

anyhoo....time to beat that dead horse again:



Crayon said:


> Patwa, you did not disappoint. As much as I would love to debate the merits of certain approaches to dealing with bryopsis, you cannot argue the success of my approach. My tank is 100% bryopsis free.


If you do not gauge success as a function of time (among others, of course), then YES, you sure as hell showed that evil bryopsis who's the boss! 2 years? Why not be even more careful, deliberate and meticulous and take 3 or 4 years? However, if your equation for success puts emphasis on using time effectively and efficiently, then yeah, you need to stand back, take a breath and figure out why a 3-month task took you 24 months.



Crayon said:


> First, let me preface this by saying you need to come to the bbq this year. Stick your chin out and man up. Debate me in person and learn the rationale behind why I made certain decisions and stop hiding behind the blanket of an on line forum with no face. I don't bite, even though right now I can feel my claws out.


Man up? I hope we're not going to turn this into an elementary school yard scrap that i'm somehow less of a "man" coz I won't show up and shoot the shit with you all. I've been in this hobby for years and have already met a wack of you, including you, Crayon ...and even more have been to my house...and i've met even more still at the stores, etc. What i'm trying to say is I don't have shit to prove to you or anyone else by simply showing up at a BBQ.

However, if I went it'd be to show off my pork ribs and nothing else. But I know it'd turn into a pissing match, maybe coz of something unfortunate Alt would say or something misguided like what Tommy boy said in an earlier post. I tried once and was treated like shit when I wanted to bring some food....never again.



Crayon said:


> Now, I am really trying to avoid the concept that for what ever reason, I must have someone TELL me how expensive something is. I am sure you did not mean to imply that I could not come to that conclusion on my own, right? Is this where I say, yes, I do have my own credit card, too? Or even, heaven forbid, I might negotiate my own car purchase?
> 
> I must say Zach, it feels like a lot of testosterone, but honestly, we have never met, so I will chalk it up to ignorance instead.


See, now you're shifting this into a man vs. woman argument? I never insinuated that in my posts, that's a fact. I take pride in my views not infringing upon people's (human) rights. So be careful what you're insinuating here as that is not what i'm trying to sell at all.

Of course, where i'm careful to not attack or insinuate that you're weak, you're poor or you're a girl, I do, instead, focus on the facts as per your initial post. See your post #3.....you insinuate that it does take a lot of Kent Tech M to treat 250G, but you also say it does have a bad affect on your softies. FWIW, above 1600 is toxic for prolonged periods of time......you were at 1750. Again, you need to read a lot more and not try and re-invent the friggin wheel.



Crayon said:


> Well, that's nice and I am glad you think this should be "dealt with" in six months. Does that mean that because it took me 2 years I am either: a) an idiot, b) incompetent or c)a girl


It means you're not treating the problem, but rather adding to it. A, B, C are what YOU think i'm trying to do. And there you go trying to pin my commentary as sexist......you're barking up the wrong tree, Crayon.



Crayon said:


> You are welcome to visit to see, if you don't believe me.


Are you even reading what i'm writing?? It's not that I don't believe you...quite the contrary (why the hell would you write such a thread if it there wasn't some truth to it!?).

_If you don't get it by now, this is the crux of my commentary: it's that you used an ass-backwards way of dealing with an issue that resulted in dead animals, stress to your corals and wasted time, money and energy. OK? not coz you are a girl, or you're poor, or you're stupid._



Crayon said:


> Why didn't you just post a "way to go Cheryl"? Would have taken way less effort.
> 
> Luv ya back Patwa.....


Coz I don't like to mince words. Your approach leaves little to be proud of.

But yes, if you want your interweb experience to be all happy butterflies, high fives and "way to go's" then yes....you done did a good job, thurr!



goobafish said:


> My day job is as a researcher, but that's beyond the point, as there is a lot that is not scientifically researched and based on experience. I have spent hours researching both topics, and there is nowhere near unanimous consent amongst hobbyists on either topic, nor is their any documented scientific proof of what you are claiming (actually the opposite can be found). In the case of Bryopsis and Magnesium, it is far from well documented. The majority of cases claim that it is in fact some other component of Tech M that kills the Bryopsis than the Magnesium itself.
> In fact, chemistry would indicate that the Hydrogen Peroxide comments are wholly false, you are adding a chemical that almost immediately turns into water and oxygen, in small amounts.
> 
> I am not going to argue my personal experiences with both of these, as they are irrelevant. What works for someone may not work for another, that is why there are so many different solutions when you search online. Making dogmatic statements which you are claiming as absolutes, but are absolutely not, is certainly not a good way to help reefers.
> ...


What a coinkydink...my day job is also research-heavy and is based on strong empirical evidence, most of the time. So, just like you, I also have a critical worldview of science and esp. the science we reefers rely on in our homes to take care of our highly complex closed ocean systems.

Goobs, you're a decent guy from other threads of yours i've commented on and from other posts i've seen you make. But as much as you're trying to be the devil's advocate by saying there's substantial grey area out there, you're also ignoring tried and true methods we reefers have used for a very long time to deal with bryopsis.

Your comments are moot and do not really clear the air at all. You're stating the obvious - of course, the flippin' Theory of Relatively is not proven, and day after day, month after month, the laws of physics and chemistry are being tested and prodded to find alternative ways to explain nature. And so it goes.

So YES, I do also EMPHATICALLY support the notion that the link bw magnesium and bryopsis is not written in stone. That's obvious.

BTW, I successfully control bryopsis with simple dosing of magnesium chloride from BRS; I do not use Kent Tech M as it's a waste of money if all you're doing is buying it to treat bryopsis. That is, there's no 'secret' ingredient in Kent Tech M that makes it work...it's the magnesium alone (just my $0.02; not fact, not proven. but based on the experiences of thousands of reefers all over the world)

z

PS....just noticed some of the bad reputation I got for these posts...hahah OMG. Lol @ the person who said "Complete Bullshit" ...so sorry my posts pissed you off so much, broski....ffs, i'll try and be less full of shit next time.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

Guess someone needed to hear their own voice


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## Vinoy Thomas (Jan 4, 2013)

Crayon said:


> Stick your chin out and man up.





Crayon said:


> I must say Zach, it feels like a lot of testosterone,


Why was sex brought into this.


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

altcharacter said:


> Guess someone needed to hear their own voice


ROFL.......it seems you can't keep your mouth shut too... did you notice?

Also, I tried to find that thread where you crapped on me for not making enough ribs for 40 people (so I could properly reference it for Tom in case he was curious about the _real_ "rib" story) but found out you erased it entirely. Good move....destroy the proof, distort the story and profit.

As for why sex/sexism was brought into this argument about bryopsis....I dunno.....my guess is they can't take pointed criticism or engage in critical dialogue, so they fall back to personal attacks....whatevs.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Vinoy Thomas said:


> Why was sex brought into this.


Sorry? I miss how saying "man up" is a sex reference.

Testosterone? Is that a sex thing too?

Yeah, I can see where this is going. 
Let me make this clear.

"Man up" does not translate if the expression is "person up". Should I have used "grow some balls". Would that have been more clear? Or is that sex related, too?
Or would you prefer "get over your pouty self centred bullshit from a comment made 3 years ago and get on with being part of a forum where comments are made, egos get wounded and we all move on".

I hope there was no sex inferred in the last comment.

But quite frankly "man up" was easier, clear and without sexual overtones.

So get over it and don't go there.


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

i'm cool...i've aired my grievances a la Costanza style...my ego is back in balance...im out. enjoy that BBQ!


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## Vinoy Thomas (Jan 4, 2013)

Crayon said:


> Sorry? I miss how saying "man up" is a sex reference.
> 
> Testosterone? Is that a sex thing too?
> 
> ...





Crayon said:


> I must say Zach, it feels like a lot of testosterone,


I find it quite obvious that the above is implying that you feel, because of his sex he's coming across the way he did because of his testosterone. I have only ever heard such a statement when someone is trying to undermine someone due to their sex.

What I'm getting at is, maybe refrain from using ad hominem attacks to undermine someone else. We're all here because we love the hobby, so there isn't any need to be hostile.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Patwa said:


> anyhoo....time to beat that dead horse again:


Actually, no. It was not time to beat that dead horse. You offered nothing new to the thread.

This was MY experience. I put myself out there to discuss an issue that had frustrated me. If you have a sure fire solution for effectively ridding bryopsis from a tank, then where is your book? I am sure you would make millions.

I am not the only person that has faced this issue and took so long to succeed. Your commentary in this thread has no benefit to those people who lurk and are afraid of posting questions that raise similar issues for fear of running into the attitudes that you presented.

I have no intention of arguing the minutiae of what you choose to focus on.

My tank remains bryopsis free today. 100% free. No little colonies, strands, or tips.

Now if I could figure out how to slow down the blue clove polyps, that would be a good thing!

And if, Patwa, you have written any books on that subject, do me a favour and tell us all now. Cause I really don't want to go through this pissing match the next time I discuss my experiences.

and I will continue to post my experiences, so do me a favour and try and use a little more discretion next time.


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## Crayon (Apr 13, 2014)

Vinoy Thomas said:


> What I'm getting at is, maybe refrain from using ad hominem attacks to undermine someone else. We're all here because we love the hobby, so there isn't any need to be hostile.


Do me a favour and go back and read the whole thread. I was not the attacker. And I was not hostile. If you feel the need to defend the comments that were directed towards me, good on you.

I have no issue defending my position and can tell you that subtle or obvious, I did not read into the intent of Patwa's post and create something from nothing. The comments he made were unnecessary.


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## Vinoy Thomas (Jan 4, 2013)

Crayon said:


> Do me a favour and go back and read the whole thread. I was not the attacker. And I was not hostile. If you feel the need to defend the comments that were directed towards me, good on you.
> 
> I have no issue defending my position and can tell you that subtle or obvious, I did not read into the intent of Patwa's post and create something from nothing. The comments he made were unnecessary.


We're here to learn from each other and in that we may disagree sometimes.

However, let's try to keep the sly remarks out of the discussion in the future. When it gets personal, it takes away from the friendly learning environment we're trying to encourage.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## goobafish (Jan 27, 2015)

There was actually an article between now and then published that shows Acropora naturally produce Hydrogen Peroxide in their slime. Far from damaging your reef, it is naturally occurring.

I appreciate you saying I am a stand up guy, but you didn't defend your opinion, you merely proved my point in that you've taken some anecdotal experience and presented it as evidence. The onus is on you to back up your claims, not on me to disprove them. The more time I look away from this thread the worse your comments look.


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

goobafish said:


> There was actually an article between now and then published that shows Acropora naturally produce Hydrogen Peroxide in their slime. Far from damaging your reef, it is naturally occurring.
> 
> I appreciate you saying I am a stand up guy, but you didn't defend your opinion, you merely proved my point in that you've taken some anecdotal experience and presented it as evidence. The onus is on you to back up your claims, not on me to disprove them. The more time I look away from this thread the worse your comments look.


...let's get back to the discussion, and esp what you're saying here:

Hydrogren peroxide produced by acropora? sure, i'm not an SPS guy, but I believe you. And i'm sure they produce a lot of other by-products through normal life processes, some "good", some "bad". But what amounts of hydrogen peroxide are we talking about? Does the *amount* produced change depending on maturity, size, species, variant, lighting, salinaty, alk, etc. If you want to be all scientific, that's great coz I can jive with that...but be 100% scientific and qualify the statement.

I would hazard to guess the PPM of hydrogen peroxide produced solely by acropora in the water column would be negligible (ie. would not cause an adverse effect on the other nearby animals when produced under normal conditions). If it wasn't, I, along with a lot of other (even more) keen reefers would have sounded the alarm a very long time ago.

However what the OP was doing was obviously (to me) using MUCH more than what a simple acropora would produce. And therein lies the recklessness that I see when you take into account the amount of animals she has under her care and the toxicity of the chemical she's using. From her own posts, she was using the 'trial and error' method of reefkeeping.....and what do you suppose she did when she dosed hydrogen peroxide?

To make such a move (ie. adding that harsh chemical) to treat bryopsis of all things, shakes me to my core (hence, the shit-storm I unleashed).



goobafish said:


> some anecdotal experience and presented it as evidence. The onus is on you to back up your claims, not on me to disprove them.


I'm only gonna make a guess here (and I mean absolutely no disrespect!) based on your statement above that you're fairly new to the hobby? Maybe a few years in? I say this coz you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that elevating your magnesium levels is FAR AND AWAY the best approach for dealing with persistent bryopsis (and bryopsis alone).

So, i'm not at all providing "SOME" anecdotal evidence. I am providing widely accepted, exceedingly common knowledge that is held by reefers all over the planet. And yes, it's 100% anecdotal, you're completely right. I certainly don't have journal articles to cite or Randy Holmes-Farely's brain to pick to back up what i'm saying...that's where ReefCentral's search engine and Google comes in....not my job.


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## goobafish (Jan 27, 2015)

Been in the hobby all my life, my father and I kept tanks growing up. Why don't you Google magnesium and bryopsis first, read some of the recent results, then tell me to do it. It shows very contradictory options to what you've started.


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## Patwa (Jan 30, 2014)

Excellent! I'll read later tonight, but i'm neither going to comment whether it's true or false or whether I like it or not....that's not what this thread is about.

What i've been saying from the start, and now, and for the future, is that the reading i've done (years ago) promoted the use of mag to treat bryopsis, no matter what tank you kept, and how bad your bryopsis problem was. And from that point to now, magnesium supplementation in my tank has done _exactly_ what it promised to do. My animals are healthy and vibrant and not a trace pf bryopsis, apart from the cycling my tank went through when I set it up (bryposis sprouted on and off for a few months).

Mind you, my tank is extremely packed heavy with softies and limited LPS, only a few pieces of SPS (mainly montis). Mine is not a good example of the true mixed reefs others on this board and the OP have.


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## altcharacter (Jan 10, 2011)

The OP should close this thread


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