# 60 Gallon Tall Planted Tank Journal



## mlongpre

Hey all!

Wanted to start a tank journal for my Marineland 60 gallon rectangular tank (48x13x24). Not the best tank to have a planted tank with as it is so tall the light has to travel quite far and it is not very deep which doesn't give me much to work with depth wise. Anyway, bought it back when I was a tank newbie and didn't really know what I was doing or what I should really be looking for. That was about two years ago now. I really wish I would have gotten something shorter. Maybe someday.

I've just made a move up from Nashville TN to Toronto ON and have just restarted the tank/scape. Now I wouldn't call myself a good aquascaper by any means. Usually I just make up a plan while I'm planting. Not the best way I know but it is what I enjoy. And I feel like I am making progress in terms of appearance.

*Equipment*
Fluval 406 Canister
Maxi-Jet 900 Powerhead with Sponge Filter
Hydor Nano Circulator
Fluval Heater
GLA Inline Atomizer
20 LB CO2
Dual Stage Praxair Regulator
Fabco NV
Tetra Air Pump
Eco-Complete Plant Black (a few red rocks got mixed in somehow - not happy about it)
48" TrueLumen Pro LED 8000k x3

*Fish/Inverts*
Dwarf Puffers x6
Endler's livebearer x25 
Red Ramshorn Snails x30 (and declining)

*Plants/Scape*
Large Piece of Driftwood (not sure the type)
Couple Rocks (not sure the type)
Water Sprite
Amazon Sword
Xmas Moss
Chain Sword
S. Repens
Baby Tears
Dwarf Baby Tears
Moneywort
Four Leaf Clover
Amaranth Redroot
Vallisneria Nana
Green Temple
Mini Spiral Val
Narrow Leaves Hygrophyla
(Some plants are in real small portions and I'm waiting for them to grow out to really make an impact)

*Water*
5 KH
6.4 PH when lights on 
EI Dosing
50% WC/Week
Just got the CO2 dialed in and started dosing today (03-10-14).

Sorry for the lackluster photos. I'll have to try and get some better ones soon.
All opinions gladly received! Breeder box is temporary!


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## TorontoPlantMan

What is the second gauge on your regulator for? I've never seen anyone leave that on


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## mlongpre

TorontoPlantMan said:


> What is the second gauge on your regulator for? I've never seen anyone leave that on


It's a valve that just opens and closes. Bought the regulator used and it was already attached. Honestly I couldn't get the damn thing off! Adds length that I don't need.


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## TorontoPlantMan

mlongpre said:


> It's a valve that just opens and closes. Bought the regulator used and it was already attached. Honestly I couldn't get the damn thing off! Adds length that I don't need.


Oh okay, I always wondered what that was. I'm sure if you try hard enough it'll come off, sometimes it's just super tight from whatever they used (loctite etc). Sweet setup though


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## mlongpre

TorontoPlantMan said:


> Oh okay, I always wondered what that was. I'm sure if you try hard enough it'll come off, sometimes it's just super tight from whatever they used (loctite etc). Sweet setup though


Yeah someone definitely used loctite or similar on it.

Thanks!


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## Lee_D

The second gauge allows you to turn the gas on and off without using the main knob. The main knob sets the pressure, the small one turns it on and off. It allows you turn off the flow and keep the pressure constant. it is used mainly when replacing the cylinder.

Lee


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## mlongpre

Just wanted to post a few new pics of the tank. Added a few new plants. Not entirely sure of the names. I'm not much for names


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## mlongpre

A few more changes...


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## Reckon

Looks great! The carpet is really coming along. How about pics or journals of your other tanks?


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## deepblue3

*Nice tanks!*

Love the tanks! I really think the driftwood is a cool piece, great job!


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## TorontoPlantMan

What PSI are you running on your regulator to power those 4 tanks? It looks sweet how you have them all near each other, it reminds me of the ADA store haha, looks awesome man.


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## mlongpre

Thanks guys! I might start journals of my other tanks at some point. More proud of the 60 and spent the most time on it so far. My reg is set to 40 psi and it's running the three tanks on the left which all use inline gla atomizers. The ten gallon is run on a separate reg 24/7 with normal glass diffuser, while the other three come on 3 hours before light and off 30 mins before lights out. 

I really want to get a tank that is deeper than 13 inches. I just feel like I don't have enough depth to scape well. Hard to get that transition from small to medium to tall in the back. Need more area to plant!


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Reckon

mlongpre said:


> I really want to get a tank that is deeper than 13 inches. I just feel like I don't have enough depth to scape well. Hard to get that transition from small to medium to tall in the back. Need more area to plant!
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Perhaps it's time to upgrade the 20 I see into a 50, 36x18x18. Or the column to a 24x24x24


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## mlongpre

I've got an old 20 gal hex. Is that the one you are referring to? I am looking to upgrade it to a cube tank of similar or slightly larger size so I can still use my same accessories. Problem is the 16 in finnex ds I have over it. Not sure many tanks are that size. Probably need to upgrade the lighting as well if I upgrade tanks. It will happen eventually. Realistically if love to have a180 gal or so but not at this time. Might spring for a 40b if I can find one rimless. 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## mlongpre

I eventually want to get large enough to try my luck with a sump setup. 


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## mlongpre

I'm still not entirely sure on some of the plant species in my tanks. I'm going to take a few pics and post them here to see if any of you can help identify them.

Thanks.


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## mlongpre

Here are a couple pics to identify. 
You can see the red one in my tank photos up the page also.




























Thanks for the help!


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## default

Healthy looking plants you got there!
Not sure which plants you want identified, but:
1. nesaea crassicaulis or/ Ammania gracilis
2. alternanthera reineckii (and possibly the mini variant)
3. Bacopa monnieri

Hopefully those were the ones you were looking for IDs.


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## mlongpre

yeah just the two non green plants haha. thanks!


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## mlongpre

What about this guy? Also what deficiency is it showing?


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## pyrrolin

looks like hygro or giant hygro, not sure of deficiency


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## mlongpre

pyrrolin said:


> looks like hygro or giant hygro, not sure of deficiency


Yeah I think you are right. Seems to be Hygro sp. Ceylon.


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## mlongpre

Anyone know anything about these types of spots on s. Repens? I'm dosing 30ppm,6,30 n,p,k total. 1.5 Fe in form of csm+b.










I'm finding it hard to get my co2 right as well. I keep getting stunted tips and gnarled growth on some of my plants. Been pushing the ph down to 6 even 5.9 sometimes with a kh of 5. Had to increase surface agitation to get it that low. Not sure why I'm having to use so much co2 with only about 70 par at the substrate.










This one and AR are my worst. But I've even seen moneywort grow with super skinny and twisted leaves. Don't think I can push co2 further.

Agh!


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## Sameer

Trying posting this on The Planted Tank . net. Im sure you will have better luck there as there are hundreds of people using that site daily. Unfortunately, I have this algae in my tank recently. I also have cyno, which looks like you have it as well. atm Im trying to move my lights farther away from the tank, lower the par and see if it works out.


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## TorontoPlantMan

mlongpre said:


> Anyone know anything about these types of spots on s. Repens? I'm dosing 30ppm,6,30 n,p,k total. 1.5 Fe in form of csm+b.
> 
> I'm finding it hard to get my co2 right as well. I keep getting stunted tips and gnarled growth on some of my plants. Been pushing the ph down to 6 even 5.9 sometimes with a kh of 5. Had to increase surface agitation to get it that low. Not sure why I'm having to use so much co2 with only about 70 par at the substrate.
> 
> This one and AR are my worst. But I've even seen moneywort grow with super skinny and twisted leaves. Don't think I can push co2 further.
> 
> Agh!


Light drives Co2, Co2 drives nutrient uptake; With that said you need to start by either lowering your PAR and co2 or increasing PAR and leave CO2 the way it is.

How do you know your PAR is 70 at the substrate? Did you measure this with a PAR meter or are you just going off research?

Cut back on your CO2, your plants are showing clear signs of nutrient deficiency because you have your CO2 ramped up so much and not enough nutrients.

Also if you increase surface agitation too much then there isn't enough time for the CO2 to be fully absorbed by the plants before being gassed out, essentially you're just wasting CO2.

In terms of your S.Repens, it is too tall in my opinion. Ive had huge huge patches of S. Repens basically "christmas tree" out on me because I didn't keep up with trimming. The more you trim this plant the healthier it will be, you need to be sure to remove the bottom half that you cut.

The algae on your plants seems to be dying which is a good thing but a complete black out will kill it all off. It seems to be green thread algae in my opinion which is easily easily removable by blacking out your tank for a few days. I had two 10 gallon tanks, one with pellia and one with subwassertang that were terribly covered in green thread algae from the timer on my lights failing. I just took everything out, put them in 5 gallon buckets and sat them in a corner for 2 weeks and everything came out perfectly clean, all the green thread algae had turned white and I let my otto's do the rest of the cleaning once placed back in a tank. (Mind you were talking about a lot of moss here so it took longer).

If you need any help/wanna go into specifics feel free to PM me


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## hendy8888

TorontoPlantMan, any source for the claim "co2 drives nutrient uptake"? I would like to read up on it as I was under the impression that carbon was just another nutrient. I understand matching co2 with light intensity and photo period.


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## Sameer

hendy8888 said:


> TorontoPlantMan, any source for the claim "co2 drives nutrient uptake"? I would like to read up on it as I was under the impression that carbon was just another nutrient. I understand matching co2 with light intensity and photo period.


Good co2 + high light = crazy growth. You need the 3rd in order to complete the circle. You need all three for healthy growth. Low light means low lvls of co2 and nutrients. High light means normal lvls of co2 plus nutrients. Plants want to grow when co2 and light is there, you need to make sure about nutrients. Do you have a test kit?

Looking thru the net it seems that you might have a potassium deficiency. Heres a link to a simple image:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98529

There is no harm in dosing more than you do now and see if that makes a difference.


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## TorontoPlantMan

hendy8888 said:


> TorontoPlantMan, any source for the claim "co2 drives nutrient uptake"? I would like to read up on it as I was under the impression that carbon was just another nutrient. I understand matching co2 with light intensity and photo period.


It is not a claim, it is a fact here is a good presentation of it, I believe this one was done by Tom Barr

http://www.siliconvalleyaquariumsociety.com/Downloads/Light_limiting_talk_for_SVAS.pdf


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## hendy8888

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.


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## TorontoPlantMan

hendy8888 said:


> Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.


No problem man it's a great read, BTW not trying to hijack the thread but congrats on winning that BA's contest, very well deserved


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## jimmyjam

that hair algae will go away with a bit of peroxide or excel


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## mlongpre

Thanks for the help guys. I've lowered my light intensity and lowered the co2 as well. Also don't need as much surface agitation. 

Hopefully I can get it to stabilize at a lower level of light. Then maybe think about increasing it slowly. How much Par are you guys running at the substrate? 

I'm not so worried about the algae. Just want to focus on getting my plants to grow without deficiencies including co2 and ferts.


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## mlongpre

I'm still having problems with this tank and all my others really. Can I really have too much co2 for the amount of light I use and have it negatively impact the plants? My understanding was that the light levels drives the plants to grow. And it needs co2 as well as other macro and micro nutrients. If I'm dumping in more co2 than is needed, won't the plants just intake as much co2 as it can with the given amount of light and leave the rest in the water? Same with nutrients right. They will only take in as much as they can. So theoretically I'm giving more than enough co2 and nutrients for the amount of light present, no? Unlimited co2 and nutrients. Am I way off on this?


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## cb1021

You're correct - light is the driver.

What problems are you having with the tank?


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## mlongpre

Pretty much the same ones as before. Gnarled skinny twisted slow new growth, leaves dropping, pinholes. I'm putting in 20ppm no3, 8ppm po4, 30+ppm k and 1.5ppm fe. Kh is 5 which is think that is normal for Toronto tap water. Drop the ph down to 6 and keep it there for the 7hr light period. Running a 48" finnex ds, 24" tank height. Should have a par in the 40-50 range as I've got glass tops.


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## cb1021

The best way is to determine the strength of your light is by looking at example of tanks that use that specific light - not by advertised PAR readings. I _really_ liked LEDS but it was impossible for me to get them (Satellite+) because I want high light.

Long story short, you don't have enough light. Your tank is very tall, even with 2 more LED fixtures, I'm not sure if they can penetrate through the water.

You don't have any algae issues right? That's because you don't have enough light.


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## mlongpre

It seems like people with this fixture are getting between 40-60 par with heights from 22-24".. Mines 24". So too little light then? I had one extra strip (truelumen pro led) complimenting the finnex a couple posts back which resulted in similar gnarled skinny growth. Reading Tom Barr stuff I'm thinking I have too much light for the amount of co2 therefore the plants are stunting. But I really have no idea as there seems to be so much conflicting information out there.


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## Reckon

mlongpre said:


> I'm putting in 20ppm no3, 8ppm po4, 30+ppm k and 1.5ppm fe. Kh is 5 which is think that is normal for Toronto tap water. .


I think you should drop the phosphate dosing - that's a 2.5:1 ratio. Even EI doesn't ask for such rich PO4 dosing.

Also, I recall there's some information on barr report regarding balancing phosphate and co2. Try dropping it to 10:1.

I also don't think you really need to dose additional K - you're dosing lots of macro (I'm assuming KNO3 and KH2PO4) and it seems there is a decent GH in GTA's water. Extra K isn't dangerous to your fish or plants but why spend the extra money?


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## mlongpre

I'm now dosing less PO4 and less additional K. A little more light was added. I'll see how it goes. Should I be adding magnesium?

What ph are you guys dropping your tanks down to? I've got a 5 dkh drop checker that turns yellowish green so I think I've got enough co2. Green should be roughly 40ppm.


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## mlongpre

Anyone willing to come by and help me get this sorted? I could scrounge up some coin for the lucky one!


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## cb1021

Can you take some photos? I'm sure the guys on here can help you out from here.


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## mlongpre

Here is a short vid showing the flow and surface agitation I have going on. I've thought maybe my flow wasn't good enough since it is a tall tank. Need the co2 and nutrients to make it to the bottoms and back plants well for them to grow correct? 

I also find without this much flow and agitation, my ph will continue to shift during the lighting period and from what I read that is a big no no. So this is the only way I can reach equilibrium between adding co2 and degassing it resulting in stable ph reading. 

Does anyone measure PH to calculate their ph drop for co2 concentrations or do most just use a drop checker? Either way I go I feel like I have enough co2 to be non limiting but still get gnarled curled leaves on new growth (symptom of co2 deficiency) as well as many other deficiencies. I dose ei so I know my ferts aren't wrong which leaves me to co2. I'm guesstimating 50 par currently. People run that without co2 and do fine. I'm adding it and the tank sucks. How can it be possible that I can't get enough co2 into the tank for a measly 50 par.

Honestly three years of trying and not great results. Almost time to call it quits.


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## mlongpre




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## mlongpre




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## mlongpre




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## Professor Monkey

In your video it looks like the whole surface of the water is rippling which I would classify as a lot of agitation.

I don't have experience with pressurized CO2, but I use DIY CO2 on my planted tanks with great results. CO2 is sucked from my yeast containers by a maxijet powerhead and the flow is directed downward at about 45 degrees. Large bubbles float to the surface quickly and small ones remain suspended in the current. Many of the large bubbles get trapped at the surface by the little bit of bacterial/biofilm that's built up. At the other end of the tank my FX6 outflow causes a small amount of surface rippling and pushes any suspended CO2 bubbles back down towards the substrate.

About 1/10th (maybe less) of the surface has enough disturbance to ripple - the other 9/10th is flat. Because some bubbles are trapped at the surface I can see that the flat surface water is moving very slowly - the bubbles travel from right to left at the back of the tank due to the maxijet, and then are pushed to the front by the FX6 and travel from left to right back towards the maxijet. It probably takes 30 seconds to a minute for the bubbles to complete the circuit.

Remember that gas molecules are moving very fast (O2 molecules in the air travel at 1600 km/h) and will easily escape from a liquid if they can get close to the surface.

With DIY CO2 it is basically impossible to get too much CO2 into the water so I have try to maximize its diffusion - this means getting the bubbles to stay in contact with the water as long as possible and reduce the amount lost at the surface by keeping agitation to a minimum while still having good water movement throughout the tank.

Try reducing your surface agitation and closely monitoring your pH levels - your CO2 is probably escaping at the surface just as fast as you are putting it in.


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## mlongpre

The problem I'm having with that approach is the constant decrease in ph / increase in co2 concentration during the photo period. The co2 gas keeps being dissolved into the water with little movement on top and eventually kills the fish. Equilibrium between adding co2 and off gassing it must be met in order for the co2 concentration to remain stable in the water. In other words, when I try that method, the ph at the start of the photo period will be much higher than at the end. The co2 concentration in the water constantly increases without reaching that equilibrium. The way around that is to run co2 longer so that it eventually does stabilize.

http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/technikaCO2nastaveni

That article demonstrates what I'm trying to convey. But maybe I'm all wrong in this thinking. I've got both types of tanks running, some with surface agitation and some with very little. I'm not sure I'm seeing any real difference in them though.


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## Professor Monkey

Awesome article - it very effectively illustrates the advantages and disadvantages of using lots of aeration vs very little. I am a big fan of graphs and figures to illustrate the effects of a variable on the outcome.

I agree with what others have said about light being the driver of plant growth and nutrient requirements - if light is your limiting reactant and there is sufficient intensity for the particular plant species then the growth should be healthy. Plants will only absorb as much nutrients as they need/can store.

You mentioned that you were pushing your pH to 6.0 or less - sounds like you have more than enough CO2.

Have you experimented with adjusting photoperiods and the intensity of light?

My 220gal is also a tall tank - substrate is 26" from the lights. They are rated for 21 PAR at 24" and I have 2 rows of them so that's something like 30 PAR since the rows are spaced out a bit. I run the lights from 7am to noon and then 4pm to 10 pm (Midday siesta let's my co2 levels climb back up, reduces electricity use during peak hours, and gives me more hours of viewing time after work). All of my growth is healthy (nutrients come from the dirt substrate which is capped with gravel).
If you reduce lighting you will reduce the plants' demand on nutrients and CO2 and it should be easier to find a balanced state. When your growth is healthy and no longer showing signs of deficiency you can slowly increase the lighting and adjust your nutrient dosing if signs of deficiency arise again. I remember reading a Tom Barr article on this approach but I can't seem to find it again. It does make sense though that starting with excess CO2 and nutrients and increasing the light until one of the nutrients is the limiting reactant makes it easier to determine what needs to be done to correct the problem.


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## mlongpre

Thanks for your help Professor Monkey.

Light is my only questionable element right now. The only thing I've done to the length of photoperiod is changing it from 8 to 7 hrs about 4(?) months ago. I ran much more intensity when this journal started out and a higher ph (weird). Currently I'm trying to hit 50 par in all my tanks but I'm only just guesstimating what it is, I don't have a par meter. So based on all the posts I can find with my light, I've guesstimated that my light is around 50-55 par. The Finnex DS I'm currently using isn't factory dimmable so I could maybe try to use the glass lids to cut it down a little. 

Would 40 par be better suited you think? I'm just finding it hard to believe I don't have enough co2 for 50 par. 

I've got a nano 7 or 8 gallon that I'm guesstimating is getting 60 par with a ph of 5.8! Still nothing promising there. Leaves dropping from the bottoms of s repens after getting yellow patches. AR is just pathetic and won't grow. By the way, the water degasses to about a ph of 7.6 when the co2 is off, for most of my tanks. 

This is the toughest hobby to master that I've ever tried, or so it seems right now.


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## Professor Monkey

I agree that your CO2 sounds to be more than sufficient. Nonetheless, it doesn't hurt to have a drop checker to ensure your levels are in fact where you want them to be.

Decreasing your lighting will reduce your plants' nutrient requirements. If they have less energy from the lights they won't be able to fix as much carbon and won't be able to grow/increase in biomass as quickly; they'll have more time to absorb macro and micro nutrients (other than carbon) and should be able to store excess amounts for future use.

I have tried growing plants in inert gravel with medium lighting, diy CO2, and liquid ferts. Growth was okay for awhile but then I started getting deficiencies. I added Flourite substrate to the tank and the growth improvement was outstanding. Having a substrate that can make nutrients available to the plants is almost as important as dosing the nutrients. I see you have eco-complete which has a high CEC to make nutrients bioavailable. Do you vacuum the fish mulm? If you do, I would recommend stopping and letting it settle into the substrate so that the eco-complete can extract the nutrients from it. There may be some micronutrients that your fert dosing is missing.

Good luck and keep trying!


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## mlongpre

I do vacuum but not very often. Maybe one patch (1/8) of the substrate every month. Maybe more than that, I don't really have a pattern or anything. I feel like I may be doing it too little! 

What micro fert are you dosing? I get mine from the local hydroponics shops here in Toronto. I think it is fairly similar to csm+b. 

Maybe I'll try adding some excel and see if that improves anything.

I do have some drop checker going. One with 4dkh and one with 5dkh. They are about 6 inches from the substrate. 4dkh is yellow green and 5dkh is a light green. Perplexed. 

Substrate change on a tank or two maybe...might be in the near future.


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## Professor Monkey

I dose a bit of potassium, and probably should dose nitrogen since my nitrates are barely detectable, but nothing else since I have dirt substrate.

Previously in my tank with flourite substrate I dosed seachem flourish, trace, and iron. I didn't know about dry ferts at the time, but it worked quite well.

Vacuuming mulm should only be done in non-planted tanks or if you can't keep nitrates in check. The mulm has lots of nutrients and as it ages will have a high CEC; having it settle into the substrate makes it a great fertilizer. Ideally you have enough ground cover to hide it or a good current that causes it to collect in the back of the tank.


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