# Ultimate Plant Substrate?



## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

Hey guys, 

I'm going to be moving my tank next monday and I'm going to take out the dirt + sand cap as I really screwed it up and it's now taking a toll on the plants. I'd really like to do a 3 layer substrate but would like some advice first on what people think. Here is my idea, any input is appreciated. 

3rd layer (very bottom)- red fluorite (high in iron)
2nd layer (middle) - eco complete coarse 
1st layer- (top)- ada amazonia or eco complete fine or fluorite black sand.

Would there be any negative results for these combinations?

Thanks


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## Greg_o (Mar 4, 2010)

Personally I don't layer unless using dirt. Sounds like you've already experienced layers being a pain..

ADA or Netlea soils are great but not long term ei 2 + years. Ecocomplete is ok, doesn't look the coolest, but it will keep it's form over time, where ADA or Netlea will just sort of soften and breakdown.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I like the idea of the red fluorite on the bottom, then I would use organic potting soil and cap with whatever you want for looks


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

I don`t think there is much to be gained by layering the substrates you listed, personally I would pick one after researching what is best with your water supply parameters & work with it.
Regards


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

Greg_o said:


> Personally I don't layer unless using dirt. Sounds like you've already experienced layers being a pain..
> 
> ADA or Netlea soils are great but not long term ei 2 + years. Ecocomplete is ok, doesn't look the coolest, but it will keep it's form over time, where ADA or Netlea will just sort of soften and breakdown.


I only experience the problems with layering because I used too much dirt. In my 20 gallon I have a layer of fluorite dark and then eco complete and it works great but I just thought I'd ask for some new suggestions as I don't want to do dirt again, at least not on this tank.



pyrrolin said:


> I like the idea of the red fluorite on the bottom, then I would use organic potting soil and cap with whatever you want for looks


lol i'm staying away from dirting this tank again, too much of a pain if you're always in and our of your tank like me. Plus I'm short on time and don't have time to mineralize any soil right now so dirt is not an option lol.



charlie1 said:


> I don`t think there is much to be gained by layering the substrates you listed, personally I would pick one after researching what is best with your water supply parameters & work with it.
> Regards


May I ask why you feel this way? I'm just curious. My reasoning for layering is this is how most plants live in their environment, their substrate consists of many layers & often has clay/iron at the bottom so I try to mimic this in my environment I'm creating for them. I've used a 5 part substrate in an emersed set up I'm doing to compare it to just a MGOPS substrate and the MGOPS is no match! I wouldn't use such a complex layering system like I have in my emersed set up as I want to have in my aquarium but I just think the plants will benefit from having different layers/types of substrate. If you disagree please explain, I'm a bit confused as to picking out a substrate based on your water parameters? can you explain a bit further?

My water where I'll be moving the tank has a PH of 7.6 which is all I really know lol


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

charlie1 said:


> I don`t think there is much to be gained by layering the substrates you listed, personally I would pick one after researching what is best with your water supply parameters & work with it.
> Regards


Here is my method to my madness , 


> 3rd layer (very bottom)- *red fluorite *(high in iron)
> 2nd layer (middle) - *eco complete coarse *
> 1st layer- (top)- ada amazonia or *eco complete fine or fluorite black sand.*


Both the Eco & Flourite are pretty much the same properties, also fine, sand, or course offers the same properties = No real benefit other that the aesthetics of the fine & course, in my opinion the emphasis you are placing on iron is way over rated, plants use very little iron.

The soil based substrates are a completely different animal in their properties, the main advantage is the source of Macro nutrient & buffering capabilities.
If your water is already soft, you don`t need the buffering capabilities of the soil based substrates which softens your water, but will eventually will be depleted.
I would pick one of the clay based substrates or soil based substrates & work with a singular substrate.
It`s my belief that we as hobbyist have a tendency to over think things, ending up with more issues than we need.
This is only personal opinion, others may have a different view ,at the end of the day you need to decide what is best fro you.
Regards


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## solarz (Aug 31, 2010)

charlie1 said:


> Here is my method to my madness ,
> 
> Both the Eco & Flourite are pretty much the same properties, also fine, sand, or course offers the same properties = No real benefit other that the aesthetics of the fine & course, in my opinion the emphasis you are placing on iron is way over rated, plants use very little iron.
> 
> ...


Completely agreed.

Personally, I would go with flourite sand, just because I prefer sand as a substrate.


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

charlie1 said:


> Here is my method to my madness ,
> 
> Both the Eco & Flourite are pretty much the same properties, also fine, sand, or course offers the same properties = No real benefit other that the aesthetics of the fine & course, in my opinion the emphasis you are placing on iron is way over rated, plants use very little iron.
> 
> ...


Mmm I'm sorry but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there is a pretty big different in types of fluorite and eco-complete, they are not the same which is why they make different types lol. If you compare between regular fluorite, red, and dark you'll see quite a difference in whats in them. Angelfins includes charts when you look at them on their store so you can see there for quick reference. Also many of the plants I have require high amounts of iron and came from places where they were literally drenched in it...especially the cryptocoryne's
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ures/displayimage.php?imageid=4105&original=1

I think I'm going to stay away from the soil-based substrates and just stick with fluorite and eco. Thanks for the input !


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## Reckon (Mar 6, 2013)

Get Ada. You are welcome.


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## Kimchi24 (Mar 22, 2013)

IMO, I say get flourite black sand. I have worked with all three of those substrates and the one i like most is flourite black sand. I had trouble with ammonia with my aquasoil and ecocomplete has different colours specs that reminded me of my clown puke days LOL. I like seeing one uniform colour as a substrate so i say go with either aquasoil or flourite black sand. When you fill your tank with aquasoil, fill it up HEAVY with plants. to make that excess ammonia go away. Like every inch of the damn substrate . i used to layer with dirt a lot but after i found out how much of a hassle it is, i now stick with just one substrate: flourite black sand.


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## GAT (Oct 8, 2011)

if you are not using dirt then you have to make sure you are adding nutrients for the pants. Its not hard but you just have to do it every day or every few days.


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

TorontoPlantMan said:


> Mmm I'm sorry but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there is a pretty big different in types of fluorite and eco-complete, they are not the same which is why they make different types lol. If you compare between regular fluorite, red, and dark you'll see quite a difference in whats in them. Angelfins includes charts when you look at them on their store so you can see there for quick reference. Also many of the plants I have require high amounts of iron and came from places where they were literally drenched in it...especially the cryptocoryne's
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ures/displayimage.php?imageid=4105&original=1
> 
> I think I'm going to stay away from the soil-based substrates and just stick with fluorite and eco. Thanks for the input !


That`s the beauty of the hobby, several roads to the same destination, I still maintain you will see no difference by mixing substrate, but it`s your call.
I have grown crypts in both Red Flourite & eco complete, did not see any noticeable difference in growth.


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

A substrate that I am very interesting in trying out is the new eco complete fine black. You might want to check it out.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

pyrrolin said:


> A substrate that I am very interesting in trying out is the new eco complete fine black. You might want to check it out.


Sucks, has red specks in it. I should of checked before I bought 3 bags!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

probably the iron in it, can you post a pic of it?


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## TorontoPlantMan (Aug 16, 2013)

charlie1 said:


> That`s the beauty of the hobby, several roads to the same destination, I still maintain you will see no difference by mixing substrate, but it`s your call.
> I have grown crypts in both Red Flourite & eco complete, did not see any noticeable difference in growth.


I agree and thank you for your input, I do like to hear what others are doing/have experienced. I'm going to use fluorite dark with mixed in chunks of local clay from a great spot I know of and then on top of that I will use fluorite black sand. I'm just hoping that this is going to be enough gravel for my tank.



pyrrolin said:


> A substrate that I am very interesting in trying out is the new eco complete fine black. You might want to check it out.


I was very interested until I saw the comment from coldmantis lol I still want to give it a try though, I'm not too conceded about specks of red although it may be strange to look at? I'd have to see first hand.



coldmantis said:


> Sucks, has red specks in it. I should of checked before I bought 3 bags!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


where did you purchase your bags if you don't mind me asking? I'm gonna go to a store and check it out, I'll keep an eye out for any visible red specks.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

I got it at big als, noone anywhere else I can think of sells it locally anyways.


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## coldmantis (Apr 5, 2010)

it's like this but worst, to this day "look" wise I still think fluval plant stranum and shrimp stranum looks the best. but it's too light, i don't really care about the nutrient value because, all my planted tanks are pressurized co2, fertilized. So whatever substrate I use it grows the same, it's just the jet black looking aspect.


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## charlie1 (Dec 1, 2011)

A word of caution, it may be quite possible that layering the black sand over the bigger grain fluorite could result in the sand settleing to the bottom.
Regards


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## pyrrolin (Jan 11, 2012)

I think I like that substrate but I'd have to see it in person in a tank to be sure, I was expecting pure black from what I've read about it. I would be disappointed to if I bought black sand and got red in it.


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