# My electric blue rams just spawned!



## KhuliLoachFan

I'm so excited!

This is the first time I've seen the eggs. They are conveniently located for photos so I'll take some pics (mommy and daddy fishy are very healthy, and their colors are awesome at the moment).

Should I add some melafix to the water for the benefit of the eggs?

W


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## DaFishMan

Congrats !

Melafix is an antiseptic, not a med, does nothing for eggs.
Methylene blue will probably be suggested or another anti-fungus med.

After some research, I used 1ml per gallon of hydrogen peroxide on my ram eggs, dripped in slowly with an oral doser and into the filter current so that a cloud of it doesn't get into a fishes gills. This kept the eggs oxygenated and helped to prevent fungus. Also a touch of peat in the filter to curb the hardness a tad. This is the method I'll be using the next time I get a batch of eggs from any SA fish.

If your temp is 78, raise to 80-82. What are your nitrates at ? If they're above 20 now may be a good time for a w/c if you can do it w/out disturbing the guarding parents.

Are there other fish in the tank ?


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## KhuliLoachFan

The parents are alone in the tank, which is planted with amazon sword, hornwort (for its oxygenating capacity), and java fern, and a little moss, and some wood, which is giving the nice S.A. water params. 

The Nitrates are very low (below my strips readout) but that's because I've been babying this tank (2x the normal water change regimen in hopes they would spawn). 

I had the temp at 78F but I'll raise it to 80F as soon as I get home and in a few days more, go to 82. I think with the 50W heater in the 20G it would take a while to get it up four degrees. 

I think I'll put a sponge filter in the tank to get it all cultured up for when I want to move the fry to their own fry tank.

I don't have any methylne blue so I'll go get that... dosage for 20g? Or should I just do the peroxide idea?


W


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## gucci17

Oh wow nice. I hope it works out for you. I'm really curious to know if they will keep their electric blue or if it is random. From what I've read, the fry sound like they can be picky eaters.


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## DaFishMan

You may have hydrogen peroxide in your bathroom already. I went and bought a fresh one though. Get an oral doser at the same time, looks like a plastic needle, 1ml per gallon if you're going to do it, dripped in real slow.

Meth blue will dye your silicone and some other objects blue, and does nothing to oxygenate eggs, which is why I went with peroxide. It has the important oxygenating feature. Introduced slowly and not dosed more them 1ml/g, it will not harm fish. If eggs are oxygenated, healthy, and getting some water movement, fungus is not a factor.

I'm not an experienced breeder, but I've hatched ram eggs with no problems and confident I can do so again using the same methods. Get other opinions from the more experienced members here though.


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## KhuliLoachFan

I am attempting a startup of an infusoria culture which might be ready by the time these little buddies hatch, if all goes well. I'm using a chunk of decomposing vegetable (squash) plus sunshine plus used tank water.




W


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## KhuliLoachFan

Checking other fish boards, the advice to use methylene blue and NOT to use hydrogen peroxide, is overwhelmingly in favor of the methylene blue.


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## DaFishMan

I will check that out and see what I can learn about it, thanks  I can only say what I've tried personally that worked.


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## Cory

I've never needed to use anti-fungals to protect eggs. Toronto water is cleaner than bottled water so if you're doing your water changes properly you can save yourself the expense of M. Blue. 

Congrats on the spawn! I was just reading about these guys in TFH and the fellow was saying it was unclear whether or not they were shipping females yet or if all those shipped were males due to a lack of dimorphism. Seems they are shipping females after all. Let us know how it goes.


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## shrtmann

Cory said:


> I've never needed to use anti-fungals to protect eggs. Toronto water is cleaner than bottled water so if you're doing your water changes properly you can save yourself the expense of M. Blue.
> 
> Congrats on the spawn! I was just reading about these guys in TFH and the fellow was saying it was unclear whether or not they were shipping females yet or if all those shipped were males due to a lack of dimorphism. Seems they are shipping females after all. Let us know how it goes.


hey congrats bud of the kiddies....

and ya i just seen that article too those fish look amazing


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## bae

This is extremely cool. Keep us informed.

I don't think any kind of anti-fungals are needed if the parents are caring for the eggs. It's only when you take the eggs away, so they don't benefit from parental cleaning and vigilance, that you have to interfere like that.

Don't be disappointed if the parents eat the eggs or screw up otherwise. It can take time for them to get all the parts of the complex behaviour of fry care right, and it's normal for cichlids to eat their eggs if they are disturbed and 'think' their chances of raising the fry are too low. They usually get it all sorted out after a few tries.

I like to leave a dim light on in the room at night when cichlids are caring for eggs and young fry. It seems to help them feel more secure and not lose track of what they are doing. Try to avoid any strong or sudden disturbances -- lights, sounds, motions, vibrations.

One of the best first foods for small cichlid fry is the micro-critters growing on plants, especially ones with a lot of surface area like java moss. There's also a lot of good eatin' on a nice dirty sponge filter. If you want microworms you can get a start from me (free).


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## KhuliLoachFan

Well they ate their eggs today.

I got some Methylene blue one of the last few bottles they had at the LFS.

They said that it's not possible to get more into Ontario now. Maybe because this stuff is toxic? 

Anyways I got some, and returned home and the eggs were eaten. I think they were all eaten. Although it looks like maybe they missed a few. So I put the methylene blue in anyways, although it looks like that was not necessary since momma and poppa are there. Maybe I'll do a water change a day and get that methylene blue back outta there.

They said 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons dosage for the eggs, but I thought, that's nuts, so I put 1/2 teaspoon into 20 gallons. It turned the water WAY more blue than I thought it would have. Anyways I don't want to hurt momma and dad.

Should I keep doing the colder water on water changes, thing? How many days or weeks or months until they are likely to go at it another time?

W


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## KhuliLoachFan

*Here's a picture*










larger:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/L--J7RVbCeZIj_eVwUBHqA?feat=directlink


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## DaFishMan

Sorry to hear you lost the eggs.

When seeing eggs or losing them, record the date, test the water and record the params for your own use.

I'd keep the water at about 80, and soften it a bit, with a little peat or alder cones. It's possible they just moved the eggs, check around, under, and in decor, watch to see them guarding. Remove tankmates, or get the pair into their own tank. If can't do either, be prepared to pull and artificially hatch the eggs, which is doable, but it'd be more rewarding for you to witness the parenting process. I also hear pulling the female after the eggs are laid and leaving them with the male helps. I'd be wanting both to learn to parent.

Domestic bred fish are often egg-eaters for the first few batches. The pair I had it took them 3 tries to get it right. In the meantime, research and continue to learn, and prepare for next time, most likely 3 wks to a month from now. Feed them as best you can, keep the water clean. Also if they feel the eggs are in danger from tankmates, you, if they're not fertilized, if the water is too hard for the eggs to develop properly (can probably sense when something's wrong), they can eat them.

Your rams are super nice, I know it's dissapointing to lose the eggs, but good things will come soon. Best of luck ! At least now you know you most likely have a viable breeding pair, and that you were able to provide clean and happy conditions for your fish to spawn. Keep us posted. I know I'll be wanting some juvies when you have some for sale down the road, for my planted tank


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## KhuliLoachFan

Awesome. I just checked the water params. pH 7, GH and KH are highest that the dipstrips can record, nitrites/nitrates both below scale. I'll look for some of those bio-pH-down items. Anybody got any alder cones? I think I know where I can get some peat. 

W


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## DaFishMan

Ph is ok, gh and kh needs lowering. Definately soften the water a touch, but skip the ph down. Go with peat (100% pure peat) or alder cones. Both are cheap. Ph down might alter the ph too quickly, and contains more chemicals.

Also looking for a source for alder cones.


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## Cory

Before you go and mess with the water chemistry keep in mind a few things:
One, your fish are alive and well. Two, they are eating fine and showing great colour. Three, they've formed a pair and spawned in exactly the conditions they already had provided for them. Why fix it if it aint broken? These blue morphs are so far removed from their wild brethren that chances are they don't require or necessarily even prefer the soft acidic waters of the amazon. If they are already spawning in there though that's a definite sign you can leave the water alone. 

Another thing to consider is that long-term stability is more important than matching some specific parameter. Yes, if you are keeping F1 or F2 discus and your water is Ph 8.5 or 9 or something then lower it but otherwise most fish can tolerate a pretty wide range and will even breed very well under a wide range of conditions. Obviously the PH change isn't required for them to spawn so why do it at all? If you find the eggs don't develop for some reason then maybe but with neutral water I doubt you'll have any issues. I've raised tiny tiny softwater fry in 8.5 water with no problems at all. You are going to do more damage to your fish if the ph swings every time you do a water change than you are going to benefit them by keeping the ph lower. 

New ram pairs are notorious egg eaters especially without any conspecifics or dithers. If you like, try separating the pair with a clear divider for 2 weeks. Feed them well with lots of frozen and live foods then let them at each other again. You'll get a larger egg count and it's a practice often used to strengthen pair bonds and improve parenting skills although it isn't sure fire. 

Best of luck and when you have some fry to go I'll definitely grab a few, they're pretty fish and both my mom and fiance want some .


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## bae

KhuliLoachFan said:


> Awesome. I just checked the water params. pH 7, GH and KH are highest that the dipstrips can record, nitrites/nitrates both below scale. I'll look for some of those bio-pH-down items. Anybody got any alder cones? I think I know where I can get some peat.


I agree with Cory -- don't mess with what works. In particular, a pH of 7 is good.

If your water is coming from Lake Ontario, there must be something going on to give you such high GH and KH. Do you have any limestone containing rocks in there? Or maybe your substrate has limestone in it. Are you adding any fertilizers or other chemicals to the water?

Again, don't mess with what works, but you should probably figure out why your GH and KH are so high for future reference. Or maybe your dipstrips are wrong. Test some of your tap water after it's been in an open container for a day. If you get the same GH and KH, I'd suspect the dipstrips. If they are substantially lower, I'd suspect something in the tank. Of course, if you aren't in Toronto, you may have harder tap water.

Next time your fish spawn, watch the eggs. If they remain clear for the first day or two, they are probably fertile. Infertile eggs will turn opaque white and then get fungused. The parents will eat infertile eggs.


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## DaFishMan

See ? We'll all awaiting the next batch of fry ! You can do it


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## KhuliLoachFan

This is fun. And unlike Convicts, it looks like people actually WANT this kind of fry. So that's all good.

What about methylene blue? I plan to do water changes daily or every other day for the next few days, and I think I'll let that one shot of methylne blue just get diluted right out and not put any more in there. As a few folks have said, parental care is good enough, and the anti-fungal thing is not needed.

They're healthy, they're happy. I'm happy. They may be constipated though. Too much bloodworms and brine shrimp, and not enough veggies. 


W


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## Cory

When I've spawned SA cichlids I usually keep the water quality very high and then do a 50% prior to spawning. Once the eggs are laid I usually don't do another change until the fry are free swimming. I've always been concerned something in tap water or rapid temp change might adversely affect the eggs and young fry.


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## Byronicle

hey Khuli, would you be selling these guys by any chance?


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## Bwhiskered

I have been breeding Ram's for years. The water should be fairly soft. I use 2/3 RO and one third tap the water shoulds be neutral to slightly acid and is best made that way with peat moss. The temperature should be 85 degrees F. Rams can take it over 90. Pairs will some times eat their eggs or fry and other times raise them with no problems. To be sure of raising a spawn put them in a jar or small tank with the suggested soft water mix and stain the water a medium blue with the Methelyne Blue and put in an air stone as you would to hatch angels.
The fry do not need infusoria. I feed micro worms for the first 2 or 3 days and then switch to newly hatched baby brine shrimp. From a good spawn you can raise up to 300 fry.


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## KhuliLoachFan

Thanks!

I will raise the temperature, get the peat moss (I've read that the orchid kind is best for fish purposes), etc.

W


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## Bwhiskered

The long fiber peat moss is good to put in a box filter. Putting ordinary garden peat moss in a large pail or barrel of water and wait until it sinks and settles and looks like clear tea is best.


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## tom g

*my gold rams just laid eggs*

my gold rams just laid eggs , and when i shut down the lights in the tank i noticed that the rosy barbs are pooling togeather adn attacking the eggs , would u rec to move the eggs , should i build up around the eggs with some extra rocks that i have , should i leave lights on or off in the tank , i have not had much luck with the fry my bolivians laid eggs and i ended up with one which didnt make it . so i am leary about removing the eggs at this time , but i am also worried that the rams will end up eating the eggs or something else in teh tank will , i do have lots of rocks i can build a cavern for them but dont want to spook them or make them eat there eggs
thanks 
tom


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## jimmyjam

im about to pickup a few pairs this week, any suggestions on picking out a pair? Should I go with the oldschool blue ram rules? Anything diff about the elec blues?


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## bae

tom_g, your rams won't be able to protect their eggs and fry in a community tank. Set up another tank for them and move them after they lose this spawn. They should have another go at it in a few weeks.


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## Bwhiskered

tom g said:


> my gold rams just laid eggs , and when i shut down the lights in the tank i noticed that the rosy barbs are pooling togeather adn attacking the eggs , would u rec to move the eggs , should i build up around the eggs with some extra rocks that i have , should i leave lights on or off in the tank , i have not had much luck with the fry my bolivians laid eggs and i ended up with one which didnt make it . so i am leary about removing the eggs at this time , but i am also worried that the rams will end up eating the eggs or something else in teh tank will , i do have lots of rocks i can build a cavern for them but dont want to spook them or make them eat there eggs
> thanks
> tom


I recommend removing the eggs to a gallon jar or a small tank if they are on something that can be moved. Add a few drops of Methelyne Blue and place an air stone near them. I keep the jar at 85 degrees F by setting the jar in a pail of water and putting a heater in the pail. Rams prefer to spawn on a flat piece of slate or a stone in an open corner. They will not use or like a cave.


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## Bwhiskered

jimmyjam said:


> im about to pickup a few pairs this week, any suggestions on picking out a pair? Should I go with the oldschool blue ram rules? Anything diff about the elec blues?


The Electric Blue Rams can be harder to sex as the females have the same solid colour as the males. You have to go more on the body shape. The males seem a bit more enlongated and the females a bit rounder.


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## KhuliLoachFan

My electric blues have their choice of a flat slate, a coffee-cup-cave, and artificial plastic "rock-like structure" with a lava-rock like surface. They chose a surface on the artificial plastic rocks, which are neither smooth nor horizontal, to lay eggs.

I have raised the temp from 78F to 82F, and will raise it to 84F in a week, if they don't spawn at 82.

W


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## DaFishMan

I hope they spawn for you Khuli


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