# used 230 gallon tank purchase?



## Jmbret

Hi everybody!

I came across an opportunity to purchase a used 230 gallon tank.

It comes with stand, canopy, lights, pumps, sump and skimmer. Essentially everything I would need to get wet minus the salt. It seems like a really good deal but there are a few things I am not so sure of hoping you all can lend your advice!

Whats included:
Tank 84” wide 24”deep and 26” 
Has center overflow, with two 1.5” durso drains and two 1" returns and two closed loops. (I have ZERO experience when it comes to plumbing so will definitely need help from the right people here to plumb this under the stand to the sump. Currently it is plumbed it to basement!) (also, is 2x1.5 durso the best setup here ? Is it better to have one pipe on full siphon and a second standpipe like an emergency drain or something?)
Glass in excellent condition.
Silicone inseam could be better...eroded quite a bit in one spot.. (Based on pics what do you think?)
Also small bubbling nothing terribly alarming though.

Stand is approximately 88” wide 24” deep and 34” tall.
(I am extremely worried about the stand although it looks fantastic on the exterior and has great character there is nothing but 8 X 1" thick wood strips supporting the entire tank! I wonder how the heck it holds up all that weight but the seller assured me the company that constructed the tank also constructed the stand to withstand the weight...What do you guys think?) 
I could always beef it up with some 4x4 posts on the inside corners...

Canopy is 12" Tall and comes with 6ft Acquatinics 7 T5 bulbs each side 14 bulbs total. I could always sell this unit and change over to halides or LED in the future.

Sump is 46G Saline Solutions 48”long 15”wide 15” with auto water top off unit. 

In sump Euro Reef Skimmer with GX4100 pump. (Anybody have experience with this unit?)

2 wavy sea units each on their own closed loop powered by 2 Blue Line 40X’s pumps. ( I don't have experience with sumps but I don't like a lot of noise. can I plumb the 2 closed loop drains and 2 returns to the wavy sea units onto 1 blue line pump to save electricity and noise instead of two separate closed loops on their own pumps?) Main return pump is Blue Line 70. Probably will sell that and use the second blue line 40x for the main pump.

Please take a second and leave me some comments. 

What do you think a system like this is worth? and what would you pay?

Seller also has a few other goodies to throw in, mainly sump light, 75 gallon holding tank, and possibly a deltec calcium reactor with most all the fixings...


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## pyrrolin

the stand sounds a little bit questionable but I would have to see how it is constructed exactly, how weight is distributed and how supports are tied in. If you design things right, it doesn't take huge boards to do the job. I would personally build a stand out of 2 x 6 for a tank this size


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## 50seven

I wouldn't worry about the silicone joints. They look fine to me; my joints look the same and it's been fine for 2 years.

That stand definitely needs help. It's even following the warped contour of the floor! Straighten it out and beef it up a bit before setting it up. I'd use 2x6 lumber or 3/4" sheet goods (ply, etc.).

What it's worth and what I'd pay are not the same, but at $1000 it would still be a bargain


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## Jmbret

thanks for the replies!

I will get a few better pictures of the stand on Friday so I can start planning how I am going to beef it up. 

Kev not sure its warped floor, the front fascia of the stand is actually wavy.

and I think your right on the $


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## 50seven

OK I see it now.

LMK if you need help with the stand.


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## wtac

From the looks of the sump, it looks like there is a glass insert to give it some height: ~2-3" from water line to top of acrylic. Doesn't look like it will be water tight should the main pump be shut off for maint/power outage/failure. For peace of mind, I would replace it vs filling the gap w/silicone.

Best to make the decision before you start plumbing as it won't fit through the doors, only from the top before the aquarium goes on. Would be nice if they designed these bloody stands w/side access...GRRR!

If noise is an issue, use an internal pump. You can either cap the bulkhead or cement a piece of acrylic over the hole from the inside. The Sicce Syncra Silent 5.0 is pretty quiet, though has a very faint hum when it breaks in but will be drowned out by the ER Sedra NW pump .

JM2C


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## Jmbret

kev, thanks for the offer! Though Im pretty comfortable with the actual construction, your advice on strength and support locations, size of lumber and design elements would be invaluable! 

wtac, great eye! The acrylic was added as a "splash guard" says the buyer to protect from rising popping bubbles etc..though you have a great point! Replacing "it" being the riser piece or the entire sump? What would be a better way to make it water tight, how would you do it?

I like that the 5.0 pump is only 105 watts but worry that 1,3000gph is not enough. Is that calculated at 0 head pressure and I will have approx 5 feet of vertical height. An Internal pump is a great idea but it would have to handle roughly 2,300 gallons per hour for approx 10x hourly turnover. Does that sound about right? Are submersible pumps superior to external pumps in any other way besides noise factor?

Thanks again !


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## wtac

A 10x turnover rate (aq'm to sump) is excessive nowadays with the availability of higher GPH and efficient GPH powerheads. With good internal water movement to keep "stuff" in suspension, a 4-6x turnover rate is the new standard. Keep in mind, having a higher flow means you have to have good microbubble "management". IMHO/E, you will have issues with that sump pushing over 1500gph through it and doing a Herbie O/F system. A 1.5" drain limitation w/a good margin of safety is 1500gph.

Based on the turnover rates, look for a pump, or pumps to add up, in the range of 920-138GPH @6-7' head height.

This is the flow chart of the Sicce SS pumps. @7' you will get at most 978GPH; a turnover rate of 4.25x. With the flare nozzles, you will probably hit the 3.75x at most using 1" as much as possible on the return pipe runs; 1.5 is better to minimize head loss from flow friction in the pipe.

As noted, you can use two smaller pumps; one for each return line.

Submersible vs external: aside from noise, it's about the application. Internal pumps saves you space in the cabinet cavity. External pumps are better suited for high GPH and head height. If you plan to T'off for a manifold to feed various reactors, etc, you have to account for flow loss in calculating the turnover rate and decide a suitable pump for your needs.

The riser/splash guard looks like glass to me. IMHO/E, I would replace it as it's too short to make efficient use of the refugium and hold water when the pump is off. I would have to defer "mating" a 6-8" piece of acrylic to the perimeter to J_T if that is a safe option. Don't know if it will be "pretty looking" but I would weigh the cost and time differential of modification vs new.

If you are going to get into a reef this size, take the time in researching, ask the questions no matter how trivial they may seem and plan methodically to do it right the first time. Equipment isn't cheap on this scale and buying twice only adds insult to injury. Generally resale returns averages ~40-50% at most unless it's a top tier brand.

JM2C/HTH


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## Jmbret

Thanks again for your thorough reply! 

So the sump size plays a significant role in terms of calculating max turnover rate? How can I tell if the sump will be too small?

I guess my goal is to have a setup that utilizes a sensible GPH turnover while considering energy efficiency and noise output. With the sump that is included, how much would I really be limited to? Would a herbie be a better design over 2 durso?

It is approx 36LX15WX15H (not including splash guard) so approx 35 gallons.

I might pickup the tank now and research a few months while I design the right setup for me 

J


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## Jmbret

Thanks again for your thorough reply! 

So the sump size plays a significant role in terms of calculating max turnover rate? How can I tell if the sump will be too small?

I guess my goal is to have a setup that utilizes a sensible GPH turnover while considering energy efficiency and noise output. With the sump that is included, how much would I really be limited to? Would a herbie be a better design over 2 durso?

It is approx 36LX15WX15H (not including splash guard) so approx 35 gallons.


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## Nel5

*sump*

Just adding my two cents. I find your sump volume a little too small for the size of tank you hae. I have a 48 gal sump on a 125 gal tank. I have enough sump size to absorb the volume of water the drains down when there is a power outage. I can't afford a flood or the the wifey will have a fit. If I have your tank size, I would be looking at a 75 gal sump minimum or possibly a little bigger.


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## 50seven

Or you could do something like what I have: 30g sump, and a separate 120g refugium. You could add a refugium any time and any size, depending in what kind of room is available, allowing you to use the sump as is. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Jmbret

I just went back and it seems the sump is 48X15X15
It is made by Saline Solutions and is 46 gallons.

Does that make any difference!?

120 Gal fuge sounds freakin awesome!!


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## 50seven

Its fine. The only thing you need more volume for is for the refugium. But ideally you want that separate from the sump and all that equipment and such. You can add that even well after the tank is established. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## wtac

IMHO, it's fine but not an efficiently designed sump for a variety of reasons. You will be better off with a slightly larger sump (min 48"x18"x16"H). If you can do a basement filtration/fish room...even better .


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## DaBomb6969

Why not use the tank and sump as is, and use that 75 gal he is including for a refuge? seeing as its coming with it. That being said, you can always use the frame of the sump and rework it to your liking and needs.


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## Jmbret

inside stand dimensions will dictate what kind of a sump or fuge I can fit under there...
but the idea of having a separate fuge is awesome! I would definitely need some help plumbing it all together!

lots to think about here...

Need to physically move the tank here before any of the real fun can begin!!!


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## Bayinaung

There has been a few large second hand tank failures. Here are some things to think about as per this thread:

http://www.thefragtank.ca/forum/index.php?topic=7806.msg81650#msg81650


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## Jmbret

I do appreciate all your replies!

50Seven I really like your idea for expansion. Is there anything I need to do when I plumb the system to make adding a separate tank Fuge later easier? I am a complete newb when it comes to plumbing so let me know if I need anything extra beyond a T in the return line?

watc unfortunately, I don't have any remote area that I can dedicate to filtration. I am limited right now to anything that fits under the stand. I am thinking I may just have to run the sump in order to decide if she will suit my needs. If not I can clean her up and put her for sale while you help me design a new one!

DaBomb, I am not sure the 75gallon tank will fit under the stand. I will take measurements when I can of the stand and keep you posted!

Bay, you make a really good point. This is exactly why I posted some pictures of the condition of the silicone to try and get some expert opinions. Do you know of anybody personally who has had a 200+ gallon used tank fail? Also, if I had the patience couldn't I just re silicone it (or is that not recommended for larger tanks?) because I have silicone a 35 before with great success.

I am really keen on getting the tank next week! 
Anybody available in the Newmarket area to help load? Anybody available in the Bayview/Steeles area to help unload? I have a bunch of air pumps, an eheim 2213 filter, fluval 205 filter and other odds and ends I can give in exchange for the help!


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## 50seven

I'll send you a photo of how my system is plumbed so you can get some ideas.

I'll also send you photos of my caulking and you can see what it looks like and compare.


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## Jmbret

50seven said:


> I'll send you a photo of how my system is plumbed so you can get some ideas.
> 
> I'll also send you photos of my caulking and you can see what it looks like and compare.


Thanks man, you rock!

BTW, it is possible to re silicone it if I were worried, right?


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## 50seven

The part of the silicone that holds the tank together is the part that is actually between the two pieces of glass. The only way to re-silicone the tank to make sure you have a brand-new seal would be to take each pane completely apart, scrape off the silicone and then glue it all back together. If it were me, I'd look into a way to brace the tank from the top or something else instead. You could modify the stand and build a canopy or add a euro brace to beef up the structure.

Scraping the inside corners and re-beading it doesn't help hold the glass panes together, it only keeps the water from getting into the seal if the seal was bad in the first place. Banging or bumping the tank during transportation would do more to weaken the tank than scraping off the inside bead.

This is because the adhesive strength of silicone to glass is much stronger than its shear strength. You would be able to twist apart two pieces of glass glued together that you wouldn't be able to pull apart by brute force. If the tank were bumped say on a corner, it would twist and skew the tank on a miniscule level. You'd never notice it, but if repeated, could twist and weaken the silicone molecules in the bond.

Move the tank slowly and carefully with at least 4 guys and transport it in a smooth-riding vehicle with foam beneath it. 

And always clean the surface with rubbing alcohol or methyl hydrate before applying silicone. This removes any residue of oil that will keep the silicone from being permanent.

... that's my $.02


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## Bayinaung

Jmbret said:


> Bay, you make a really good point. This is exactly why I posted some pictures of the condition of the silicone to try and get some expert opinions. Do you know of anybody personally who has had a 200+ gallon used tank fail? Also, if I had the patience couldn't I just re silicone it (or is that not recommended for larger tanks?) because I have silicone a 35 before with great success.


yeah a guy from london had a 180g tank fail after a number of years (was used) so he bought 170g bow used as emergency replacement. it failed 2 weeks later. lost $000s of coral. larger tanks need to be engineered better. people are using wavemakers that is adding additional stress to the tanks. 
I understnd that eurobracing makes tanks stronger. i'd consider adding it, new or used.


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## Jmbret

YIKES!~

The seller of this aquarium says it started out as a 265G 30" tall but he had the manufacturer cut it down 4" to 26" tall, so as to reduce the pressure on the joints and whatnot. That does reassure me, but reading all those threads of large tank explosions certainly have not!


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## 50seven

Even 26" is tall for a reef. Mine us 24" and I wish it were at least 2" less. You've got lots of room to fit a eurobrace. Fill the tank up to 22-24" of water and build your canopy to hide the rest. You'd provably have to modify the overflow somehow.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Bayinaung

Jmbret said:


> YIKES!~
> 
> The seller of this aquarium says it started out as a 265G 30" tall but he had the manufacturer cut it down 4" to 26" tall, so as to reduce the pressure on the joints and whatnot. That does reassure me, but reading all those threads of large tank explosions certainly have not!


I don't want to scare u off from the tank. if I had the space, means and ability to do it, I would. just get your tnk right. like the peeps on that thread says, the tank's contents r going to b worth 10x or more than the tank. get it, build bracing for it, and get ready to change ur life! lol


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## sig

Jacob, did you purchase it already?

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## Jmbret

I havn't yet purchased greg, was planning to go this Wednesday evening to put a deposit! anybody want to come and check it out with me ??


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## 50seven

Where abouts is it?


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## sig

Jmbret said:


> I havn't yet purchased greg, was planning to go this Wednesday evening to put a deposit! anybody want to come and check it out with me ??


dont buy it. You know me and I would not BS you, based on somebody else experience.

1) you will get it cheap, but will spend fortune to clean it, tlc, adjust to your place.

2) to buy cheap 230G tank is one thing, but to maintain it in a good shape will cost money. I do not see a point to have huge dirty tank, because you could find out later that monetary maintenance is to much

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## Jmbret

location of tank is right off 404 @ davis drive, dinner and booze after delivery on me! 

sig, I appreciate your input! I guess the pictures don't do the tank justice or perhaps I am just memorized by the thought of it! The glass has ZERO scratches from what I saw and Coraline algae was never scraped off the silicone. From what I can gather the PO took really good care of it. I agree with you though, if I had to spend more money to fix/maintain it then I would not consider it!

Is $1,000 cheap for a 230G tank?


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## neemo

Jmbret said:


> location of tank is right off 404 @ davis drive, dinner and booze after delivery on me!
> 
> sig, I appreciate your input! I guess the pictures don't do the tank justice or perhaps I am just memorized by the thought of it! The glass has ZERO scratches from what I saw and Coraline algae was never scraped off the silicone. From what I can gather the PO took really good care of it. I agree with you though, if I had to spend more money to fix/maintain it then I would not consider it!
> 
> Is $1,000 cheap for a 230G tank?


You can get a custom made tank for that much from John at NAFB
you should check out how much he would charge to build one same dimensions

I dont think 1000 bucks for a 230 is a deal JMHO

sorry just saw the first page where you mention stand lights skimmer etc - if that is all for 1000 bux then yes I would say it is a deal


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## Bayinaung

neemo said:


> You can get a custom made tank for that much from John at NAFB
> you should check out how much he would charge to build one same dimensions
> 
> I dont think 1000 bucks for a 230 is a deal JMHO
> 
> sorry just saw the first page where you mention stand lights skimmer etc - if that is all for 1000 bux then yes I would say it is a deal


well it also includes stand, lights, skimmers. if the skimmers aren't coral life, i.e. decent, 1k is a good price. I'm assuming it's tank AND all the equipment needed to run a salt water tank, yes!


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## Jmbret

yes it includes:

stand, tank and lights (14Xt5 fixture)
euro reef skimmer 
saline solutions sump
deltec reactor with co2 tank and regulator
2 wavy sea units, 2 hd40 blueline pumps
1X 70h blue line pump
plus other odds and ends including plumbing, valves etc..


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## wtac

14Xt5 fixture...AquActinics Constellation I hope . Great fixtures. Too bad they are no longer in business. Ballasts aren't cheap...~$125 each (Sylvania/Osram) and there are 3 in there. Easy to change out.


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## altcharacter

The lights alone are worth half what you paid. The pumps are easily worth a few hundred dollars so in my opinion you got a great deal


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## Bayinaung

if it is 1 grand for all that, don't wait too long. grab it I think? haul it to ur house before he changes his mind. or give him a penny as a deposit. that makes it a legal and binding transaction under the law.


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## wtac

This was my old clients 500gal in it's prime after changing from 4x175wMH + 4x40wNO Actinics w/2x 48"AquActinic Constellations ~10" above the water. IIRC, the aquarium was 36"H.



You can easily get 18months out of the bulbs if you don't keep SPS and the canopy is well ventilated.

The prize piece was an aqua blue cat-eye bubble coral...grew it from a golf ball to softball size.

Unfortunately it's no longer running and is now a bookcase. It was an "inherited" system and it was always a struggle to keep things in check. After 5years in my care (10 in total) equipment needed replacing due to age and the system really needed a total revamp/overhaul to make all our lives easier. With the kids grown up and off to university...it was an easy decision to shut it down...about 3-4years ago I think.

Sorry to thread jack but just sharing experience w/the AquActinic Constellations.


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## Bayinaung

looks like the lights did their job well. grab it! everyone's waiting to see how you're going to stock it


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## Letigrama

I dont know if you got it, but I second Greg ( Sig). I dont know you so I am not sure how much experience you have with aquariums in general, but more with, big tanks. I personally could manage up to 150g myself. I guess it all depends on our own circumstances. You have kids, demanding job, will your partner help you clean up, studying etc? If you are on your own, have kids, or no much time, I say dont do it! A large tank is a lot of clean up time and maintenance. Also think about stocking, cycling times, diseases! You will most definitively need a back up plan, so a large QT tank would be necessary. Vacations? do you have someone you trust to be in charge of such a tank?

Now, again, I dont know you, and I dont mean to discourage you! I would totally do it, that is, when I win the lotto max, can quit my job, hire a maid, get rid of my husband  lol just kidding. Is a ton of money, what can I say! Best of luck!


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## sig

Letigrama said:


> when I win the lotto max, can quit my job, hire a maid, get rid of my husband  lol just kidding. Is a ton of money, what can I say! Best of luck!


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## cica

Leti, I totally agree with you but I met Jacob (Jmbret), he's a knowledgeable guy. He's been in salt water already so I beleive he knows what he is getting into.


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## Bayinaung

yeah anyone who's thinking that BIG has already had big tanks. once you go over 100G, you know whether you can handle it or not. Most of the guys on fragtank.ca have tanks > 100G, are experts, and they will be helpful.


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## Bayinaung

So start a tank thread there, and they will all chime in with their experiences.


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## sig

I know Jacob also,but knowledge has nothing to do with running 14Xt5 fixture, until you have a free hydro.
Blue line 70 also consumes 290 W

There is also almost no used set ups, which will not require some kind of investment after dissembling it for movement.

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## Jmbret

*hey*

Thanks everyone for your input, cautions and advice! I do agree with everyone that there will be issues trying to set this tank up especially considering the costs to run and maintain it. I consider myself fortunate to know many of you who have been there before me and can help to guide me! I am also in no rush because I still have my 90 gallon and its running just fine 

I did put a deposit on the tank and think I got a really great deal. I will definitely need everybody's help when it comes time to plumb the system since I have little experience with that. I am already trying to figure out if I want the return lines on one strong pump or two smaller pumps and same idea for the 2 closed loops.
I will also start a build thread as soon as I get the tank! I need to figure out the most effective way to level the tank stand as my floors slope like crazy.

The next step will be to pick up and install a GFI outlet.

When I left a deposit I picked up the sump and skimmer and spent 3 hrs today scrubbing them and running a vinegar bath. Teaser picture included.


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## sig

are you planning to run sump in the basement? Blue line will be noisy for the living room.

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## Letigrama

sig said:


> call me than


LOL. I will


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## Jmbret

sig said:


> are you planning to run sump in the basement? Blue line will be noisy for the living room


likely I will sell the blue line 70 and go with something quieter. The tank IS in the basement, the basement is one room and it also happens to be my bedroom and unfortunately there is no extra space for a remote sump so all equipment has to fit under the stand and why I want to choose the quietest plumbing methods.


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## Letigrama

sig said:


> I know Jacob also,but knowledge has nothing to do with running 14Xt5 fixture, until you have a free hydro.
> Blue line 70 also consumes 290 W
> 
> There is also almost no used set ups, which will not require some kind of investment after dissembling it for movement.


WTH. 14 T5!!!!!!!!! LOTTO MAX I TELL YA. for only that reason my husband will divorce me. 

Greg has a good point. Do you have a floor that withstand the weight, and for a tang this size, sump should be a must down to the basement, that will dictate the size and flow your pump will need to have...

keep us on the loop, make a new thread, and congrats! lots of patience I send your way


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## Jmbret

Letigrama said:


> keep us on the loop, make a new thread, and congrats! lots of patience I send your way


Thank you! I will need it!

The seller gave me 4 spare t5's and apparently with these fixtures the bulbs can last for 18 months between changes especially if the canopy is well ventilated.


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## Jmbret

Bayinaung said:


> yeah anyone who's thinking that BIG has already had big tanks. once you go over 100G, you know whether you can handle it or not. Most of the guys on fragtank.ca have tanks > 100G, are experts, and they will be helpful.


Thanks for this advice! I will sign up on thefragtank.ca now!


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## Jmbret

starting to look at plumbing.

What flows better:

one 90 degree elbow or two 45 degree elbows?


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## wtac

90's will be fine. It's not like you're plumbing for a flow of 2000+GPH with your sized bulkheads. Save yourself extra steps and fittings.

JM2C/E


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## Jmbret

wtac said:


> 90's will be fine. It's not like you're plumbing for a flow of 2000+GPH with your sized bulkheads. Save yourself extra steps and fittings.
> 
> JM2C/E


my blue line 70 pump will only handle approx 1500GPH at 6' height, so you are correct!

I have 2X 1.5" drains and 2X 1" returns...


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## wtac

BL70 will give you the upper end of the turnover rate and w/head and pipe friction loss and the 2x1.5" drain lines will handle the flow no problem.


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## Jmbret

Amended design.

ball valve on one drain line eliminated.
Gate valve on main drain line moved further downline.
ball valves added before and after the pump.


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## Jmbret

moved the 2 unions as per other recommendations.

thoughts?


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## wtac

If you place the TUBV at the pump output, you can eliminate a union.

BTW, by schematic convention, that you have drawn as ball valves is considered TUBVs .


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## Jmbret

wtac said:


> If you place the TUBV at the pump output, you can eliminate a union.
> 
> BTW, by schematic convention, that you have drawn as ball valves is considered TUBVs .


awesome!

hows this?


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## wtac

Personally, I would keep the unions @the return bulkheads in the event that you have to move the aquarium. Easier not to have to deal with 4-6" pipe poking down and piling 2x4's if you have to set them on the ground/floor .

JM2C


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## Jmbret

great idea!

and thank you again for your patience and help!


version 3.4~

Do you think I can get rid of the union after the Y, or for that matter after the T on the line returning to the sump?


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## wtac

Keep it. It will make your life easier should you need to remove the return line plumbing out to the stand and replumb later .


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## Jmbret

*awesome!*



wtac said:


> Keep it. It will make your life easier should you need to remove the return line plumbing out to the stand and replumb later .




are there any other modifications you would make?


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## wtac

Nope...you have a basic plan, which is key to moving forward. Get plenty of extra fittings just in case things do go according to plan . Once you start putting the plumbing in, you'll see that you have to get a bit creative to get the pipes where they need to go and keep it "tight" so that you have lots of space not only to work in but of other equipment.

Take your time and have fun


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## Jmbret

wow you are so right! I just crawled under my stand and realized how little space there will be for all these pipes! I will definitely have to get creative with all of it! Likely will head to JJdowns in Etobicoke this coming week for first shopping spree! woo!


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## wtac

As much as you would want to use 45's, 90's will make your life easier. The return flow loss of ~100gph is nothing in the grand scheme of things and what the 2x1.5" drain lines will be handling is "peanuts".


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## Jmbret

I think you might be right! For sheer space savings 90's will have to be used. I will buy a whole bunch of both types and see what I can come up with


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