# could i ask a question about nitrate poisoning on my brothers oscar



## putiking23

my brother's albino tiger oscar just sat down in the bottom of the tank after we did a complete water change and run the system for 5 mins 

help pls thank you


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## theSICKNESS

putiking23 said:


> my brother's albino tiger oscar just sat down in the bottom of the tank after we did a complete water change and run the system for 5 mins
> 
> help pls thank you


Oscars are wussies  mine hides for a good hour after a water change. Darn thing is afraid of its own shadow.

The only way to tell if your water parameters are affecting the oscar is to test the water. Until then hard to say, just sounds to me like you pissed it off and its pouting.  Keep the lights off for a bit and it should come around eventually.

Keep an eye on it though, and I would highly recommend the use of a test kit.

edit: forgot to ask - is the tank establsihed?

Cheers


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## dl88dl

putiking23 said:


> my brother's albino tiger oscar just sat down in the bottom of the tank after we did a complete water change and run the system for 5 mins
> 
> help pls thank you


What do you meant by "a complete water change" - 100% WC?


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## Zebrapl3co

Let us know about the following.
Did you dechlorinate the water before you add it into the tank?
What was the temperature?
How long since the last time you change the water?
How long was the tank setup?

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## putiking23

*tank*

yeah we used a water conditioner and put the water into the tank after 5 mins we throw th fish back in and now he is dead. after 2 days of keeping him on a qurantine tank


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## Jackson

putiking23 said:


> yeah we used a water conditioner and put the water into the tank after 5 mins we throw th fish back in and now he is dead. after 2 days of keeping him on a qurantine tank


You need togive more details.

I don't a get a single thing as to what you did.


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## Kerohime

Hope it wasnt a 100% water change!


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## theSICKNESS

Kerohime said:


> Hope it wasnt a 100% water change!


why?

I do complete 100% water changes, usually once a year to give my tanks a good cleaning.

fish are housed in rubbermaid totes, during the process.

As long as the beneficial bacteria in the filters is not affected, and the temp in the tank before putting the fish back in is stable, then there should be no issues with performing a 100% water change.

With this particular situation and his brothers oscar, to many details left out to fully determine why the fish died.

Cheers


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## Ciddian

If the temps arn't the same you can kill your fish in no time. Too cold or too hot and then 100% on top of that its like you jumping into a freezing shower when you are expecting toasty warm.

Shocks the fish, usually kills them.


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## solarz

The biggest worry I have with large water changes is temperature and pH swings. It depends on your fish really, but for more sensitive fish and shrimps, I prefer smaller pwc.

It's also really unnecessary to "clean" an aquarium if it is planted.


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## Zebrapl3co

theSICKNESS said:


> why?
> 
> I do complete 100% water changes, usually once a year to give my tanks a good cleaning.
> 
> fish are housed in rubbermaid totes, during the process.
> 
> As long as the beneficial bacteria in the filters is not affected, and the temp in the tank before putting the fish back in is stable, then there should be no issues with performing a 100% water change. ...


Theoretically, there shouldn't be a problem with 100% water change. But it shouldn't be taken lightly either. TDS, pH, gH and temperature all play a part of your fish's health. Simply moving a fish from dirty water to clean water without slowly setting it in will kill a perfectly healthy fish. It just depends on how big a gap between old water and new water.

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## theSICKNESS

Zebrapl3co said:


> Theoretically, there shouldn't be a problem with 100% water change. But it shouldn't be taken lightly either. TDS, pH, gH and temperature all play a part of your fish's health. Simply moving a fish from dirty water to clean water without slowly setting it in will kill a perfectly healthy fish. It just depends on how big a gap between old water and new water.


I do not take it lightly, I personally research everything, from the fish i keep to the equipment i use, as well as water chemistry. I do see your point and you are bang on with that. But water conditions before hand must be pretty toxic, if a fish were to die in clean water.

Huge temperature variations I can see sending a fish into shock inevitably killing the fish. But if ones tank is so toxic from lack of maintenace or something as simple as PWC, that once the tank is cleaned, fish parish.

IMO then those people should not own fish.

Cheers


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## TBemba

theSICKNESS said:


> I do not take it lightly, I personally research everything, from the fish i keep to the equipment i use, as well as water chemistry. I do see your point and you are bang on with that. But water conditions before hand must be pretty toxic, if a fish were to die in clean water.
> 
> Huge temperature variations I can see sending a fish into shock inevitably killing the fish. But if ones tank is so toxic from lack of maintenace or something as simple as PWC, that once the tank is cleaned, fish parish.
> 
> IMO then those people should not own fish.
> 
> Cheers


You should never do a 100% water change period. Especially if the tank was not well maintained before, the drastic change in water chemistry can kill the fish. The key to keeping a healthy fish for a long period of time you need to make small frequent changes. I have had fresh water tanks setup for over 5 years and have never taken it completely down and cleaned it. The most I have done is 50% water change, at one time. You should also be careful changing too much water and clean the filter at the same time.

I have also been able to setup a new tank in one day and have no issues with the fish. But there are some things you have to do or have.
First you have to have more than one tank to do this currently running. You can get away with 50% old established water and 50% new water and it does need to be very close in temp. and use water condition (not too much either)
Also you should have a well established filter to run on the new tank.

You can have too clean of a tank!! very rarely will a fish die of a dirty tank but they can and will die in too clean of a tank. This again is because or too big of a change in the environment.

I hope this helps.


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## Holidays

breeders may do 100% water change on smaller bare bottom grow tank when frys rapid growth and excessive feeding will surpass bacteria growth to keep low amonia and nitrite levels. so they just change the water 100% to remove the amonia & nitrate.


usually not for cleaning show tank or disease treatment, 100% water change serves diff purpose....usually anyway...ya gotta have a super good test kit!


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## theSICKNESS

TBemba said:


> You should never do a 100% water change period. Especially if the tank was not well maintained before, the drastic change in water chemistry can kill the fish. The key to keeping a healthy fish for a long period of time you need to make small frequent changes. I have had fresh water tanks setup for over 5 years and have never taken it completely down and cleaned it. The most I have done is 50% water change, at one time. You should also be careful changing too much water and clean the filter at the same time.
> 
> I have also been able to setup a new tank in one day and have no issues with the fish. But there are some things you have to do or have.
> First you have to have more than one tank to do this currently running. You can get away with 50% old established water and 50% new water and it does need to be very close in temp. and use water condition (not too much either)
> Also you should have a well established filter to run on the new tank.
> 
> You can have too clean of a tank!! very rarely will a fish die of a dirty tank but they can and will die in too clean of a tank. This again is because or too big of a change in the environment.
> 
> I hope this helps.


To each his own I guess, my weekly water changes consist of 70-80% changed out. And that PWC consists of testing the water before and after.

Once a year 100% - this is a practice I was told when i first started out in this hobby by a gentleman who has been keeping fish for over 30 years - successfully i might add.

As for having to clean of a tank, no such thing IMO. Only thing I can see being "to clean" is if the beneficial bacteria in the filters is killed off, which would cause a tank to cycle.

Agreed, fish do not die in dirty tanks, but fish do die in a tank that has not been maintained properly or is under filtered, where ammonia, nitrates...etc are off the charts. Water changes whether it is large or more frequent small water changes fix that.

Consistency is the key here, I have been doing the same routine for nearly 12 years now.

Cheers


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## TBemba

Holidays said:


> breeders may do 100% water change on smaller bare bottom grow tank when frys rapid growth and excessive feeding will surpass bacteria growth to keep low amonia and nitrite levels. so they just change the water 100% to remove the amonia & nitrate.
> 
> usually not for cleaning show tank or disease treatment, 100% water change serves diff purpose....usually anyway...ya gotta have a super good test kit!


I have bred different fish and have even bred Discus and have done more than 50%. But when a breeder does a 100% water change usually they are doing this via a drip method and it is a continuous water change they are doing by using a plumbed system that incorporates overflows. New water is being introduced constantly and mixing with the existing tank water and the current tank water is being drained via overflow and they are turning over 100% or more water a day in their tanks. These pro's have RO units and are using aged water that is held in massive containers. The fact is they are not doing a 100% in one shot and are not completely emptying the tank and then filling it up.

Also this is the beginners Circle. Here is a tip for people new to fish keeping. feed way less than you think. feeding every other day even isn't a bad idea for fish, even with fry less food is better than too much food because it will cause issues with water chemistry. I like the rule of thumb I was told by an old timer when I first started the hobby. A fish should only need the amount of food the size of their one eye a day.I was told that their stomaches are approximately that size.

If you want to change more water do it in stages. Example 10% every day instead of 50% at once. If you don't want to have to change water every day than change 10% then treat the water and fill the tank up. Then change another 10% and repeat. Last thing 99% of the time you should never have to change more than 50% of the tank water at one time.


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## Jackson

My WC equal more than 100% a week when I do the math. I have better growth and colour on my fish. I also try to strip the filters ever week or two. Filter floss and water are my biggest expenses now.


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## Holidays

It is possible for grow tank but you have to do 100% water change daily consistently.

http://www.discusnada.org/discus/discus101.html

can't really drip this eh?


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## Jackson

^^^
that's just crazy.


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## Holidays

Jackson said:


> ^^^
> that's just crazy.


heheh...never seen that before eh? don't try this at home  jk


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## TBemba

Here is some of the article this guy wrote:

_However, they cannot survive in dirty water or constantly changing water conditions.

Actually, no fish can adapt to constantly changing water conditions. However, very few fish have this requirement for clean water. I recommend against fiddling with water chemistry because it's very hard to do so and still make frequent water changes. If your conditions are worse than described above, put a peat filter in line and keep the water changes coming.

Because the hygiene requirement is so high, most aquarists keep discus in bare bottom tanks. My tanks typically have a sponge filter and a heater. An outside filter may be added to large tanks to increase aeration and biological filtration. The heater sits on the bottom of the tank so that I can make large water changes without meltdowns.

Will large water changes stress discus? They will if water conditions change. Large water changes do not create stress if the tank water is relatively clean. Do not make large water changes if the tank has been neglected. Start with small, frequent changes and work your way up. Vacuum the bottom of the tank during water changes, even if the tank contains gravel and plants. _

But having any fish laying on the bottom of a empty tank like that is just stupid --- You think a fish isn't stressed when out of water? Come on


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## Jackson

TBemba said:


> But having any fish laying on the bottom of a empty tank like that is just stupid --- You think a fish isn't stressed when out of water? Come on


Stupid is being nice. I could not believe it when I saw it.


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## Holidays

Well the pic is extreme, but if you have no other means to keep your ammonia and nitrite level low in your grow tank, due to large waste and excess food then some breeders do 100% wc. You don’t have to agree just be informed


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## Jackson

Holidays said:


> Well the pic is extreme, but if you have no other means to keep your ammonia and nitrite level low in your grow tank, due to large waste and excess food then some breeders do 100% wc. You don't have to agree just be informed


I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. Reason is I do my own thing 

That pic is extreme lol

I remember my buddy showing a video he shot in china of the huge pet market they have selling anything you want. The discus were in little zip lock bags hung up on racks like bags of beef jerky. I don't think they are as sensitive as they are made out to be. Plus bigs al's can keep them alive along with the majority of the shanty LFS all over the GTA.


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## Holidays

sowie if the pic is too much for ya eyes


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## Holidays

TBemba said:


> ...But when a breeder does a 100% water change usually they are doing this via a drip method and it is a continuous water change they are doing by using a plumbed system that incorporates overflows. New water is being introduced constantly and mixing with the existing tank water and the current tank water is being drained via overflow and they are turning over 100% or more water a day in their tanks. These pro's have RO units and are using aged water that is held in massive containers. The fact is they are not doing a 100% in one shot and are not completely emptying the tank and then filling it up....


Yea...that's not what they meant by 100% wc though...


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## TBemba

Holidays said:


> Yea...that's not what they meant by 100% wc though...


that's not what he meant.

seems like you are trying to get into an argument?

Your 100% right buddy!! is that what you want to hear?


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## Holidays

TBemba said:


> that's not what he meant.
> 
> seems like you are trying to get into an argument?
> 
> Your 100% right buddy!! is that what you want to hear?


take it easy man, usually 100% water change means removing all water in the tank and putting 100% of new water in. Lots of breeders in asia do this but its unheard of here.


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## theSICKNESS

Ok I was reading through this post again. I think maybe I should have explained my 100% water change a little better. 

So my apologies for not clarifying this in my previous post or for giving any of you the wrong idea. 

Once a year I do drain my tank, reason for doing this is to give the glass a good cleaning, clean the decor and rearrange the tank.

First off, lets get one thing straight, I do not break down my tank, filters are left untouched, and if they are cleaned it is done properly with old tank water, never cleaned with tap water in addition I have 4 canister filters on my 180g and they are never cleaned at the same time, always staggered to eliminate any risk of a mini cycle

secondly, 100% may have been used a bit to loosely in this case. Lets call it a 98% water change, as there is at the least 1"-2" of water left in the tank. Just enough to cover the gravel/sand. (I have no substrate anymore, just bare bottom took it out in the summer) 

Fish are taken out of the tank, as they would not be very comfortable in 1"- 2" of water. 

Like I said earlier I have done this for a number of years. My tanks have never experienced a cycle or a mini cycle due to such a large water change. I attribute this to the fact that nitrifying bacteria reside in the filters, which are left untouched in this process.

The tank is then filled, and tested, and once all parameters are deemed stable fish are re-introduced to the tank. 


Cheers


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## solarz

theSICKNESS said:


> Ok I was reading through this post again. I think maybe I should have explained my 100% water change a little better.
> 
> So my apologies for not clarifying this in my previous post or for giving any of you the wrong idea.
> 
> Once a year I do drain my tank, reason for doing this is to give the glass a good cleaning, clean the decor and rearrange the tank.
> 
> First off, lets get one thing straight, I do not break down my tank, filters are left untouched, and if they are cleaned it is done properly with old tank water, never cleaned with tap water in addition I have 4 canister filters on my 180g and they are never cleaned at the same time, always staggered to eliminate any risk of a mini cycle
> 
> secondly, 100% may have been used a bit to loosely in this case. Lets call it a 98% water change, as there is at the least 1"-2" of water left in the tank. Just enough to cover the gravel/sand. (I have no substrate anymore, just bare bottom took it out in the summer)
> 
> Fish are taken out of the tank, as they would not be very comfortable in 1"- 2" of water.
> 
> Like I said earlier I have done this for a number of years. My tanks have never experienced a cycle or a mini cycle due to such a large water change. I attribute this to the fact that nitrifying bacteria reside in the filters, which are left untouched in this process.
> 
> The tank is then filled, and tested, and once all parameters are deemed stable fish are re-introduced to the tank.
> 
> Cheers


I hear you that if you're careful, 100% water changes are possible. However, why would it be _necessary_?


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## Holidays

You can still scrub the glass with the water in it...we all do that every week, well I do. you just don't want algae in the water? but hey whatever work for ya it's a free country.

First time hearing of 100% water change on show tank with gravel just to scrub the glass.


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## qwerty

Some people have recommend that I do extreme thorough cleanings once every year or two to avoid one or multiple problems that some people collectively coin as "old tank syndrome".

The section of that article that was posted did clearly outline that as long as the water conditions and parameters do not change drastically, large water changes are not a problem in themselves.

I think it's an unnecessary risk. But there will always be people who advocate it, and there are articles and discussions on the topic, etc.

Sucks about the oscar, though.


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## BillD

Some interesting viewpoints here. There is only one way to do a 100% water change, and that is to remove 100% of the water. No amount of partial water changes will ever add up to 100%. 
The late Dr. Joanne Norton advocated large water changes, of up to 98%. She stated in a video I have from a presentation she did at a CAOAC convention that her fish have to lie on their sides to stay wet. I consider her to be an icon in the hobby/industry, especially for her work in genetics. She is considered only slightly less than a god over on the angelfish forum.
On the same tape I have Jack Wattley describing his 50% daily water changes in his Miami hatchery. They would dump 1200 gallons into the system every day, overflowing the tanks to make the change. What was interesting to me was how they determined the size of the change they were getting; they measured the pH difference to determine they were getting a 50% change. So, for me, this lends a lot of credence to the claim that pH shock doesn't exist.
Is 100% water change necessary? Perhaps not or not often. However, a fish that is going into treatment would benefit from having totally clean water that harbors none of the toxins or pathogens that are causing the problem. In addition, the drugs would probably work more effectively. I have yet to lose a fish from large (up to 98%) water changes even in tanks that had been neglected and possibly had old tank syndrome. Of all the really successful fishkeepers I have met over the years, and by that I mean people who have kept a large variety of fish, some with very large fish rooms (up to 300tanks), and successfully bred many different varieties, the one constant is that they all changed a lot of water.


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## TBemba

BillD said:


> Some interesting viewpoints here. There is only one way to do a 100% water change, and that is to remove 100% of the water. No amount of partial water changes will ever add up to 100%.
> The late Dr. Joanne Norton advocated large water changes, of up to 98%. She stated in a video I have from a presentation she did at a CAOAC convention that her fish have to lie on their sides to stay wet. I consider her to be an icon in the hobby/industry, especially for her work in genetics. She is considered only slightly less than a god over on the angelfish forum.
> On the same tape I have Jack Wattley describing his 50% daily water changes in his Miami hatchery. They would dump 1200 gallons into the system every day, overflowing the tanks to make the change. What was interesting to me was how they determined the size of the change they were getting; they measured the pH difference to determine they were getting a 50% change. So, for me, this lends a lot of credence to the claim that pH shock doesn't exist.
> Is 100% water change necessary? Perhaps not or not often. However, a fish that is going into treatment would benefit from having totally clean water that harbors none of the toxins or pathogens that are causing the problem. In addition, the drugs would probably work more effectively. I have yet to lose a fish from large (up to 98%) water changes even in tanks that had been neglected and possibly had old tank syndrome. Of all the really successful fishkeepers I have met over the years, and by that I mean people who have kept a large variety of fish, some with very large fish rooms (up to 300tanks), and successfully bred many different varieties, the one constant is that they all changed a lot of water.


I would really like you to explain your 98% water change methods. 
1. is there any substrate or decorations in the tank?
2. how do you treat your water? straight from tap? dechlorinates? temp?
3. type of filtration and method of filtration? maintenance schedule?

I personally would love to see a video of you doing this.... and i am curious if you count the water in say a canister filter when you say 98%

last comment this section is for the "beginner" and statements like your are far from the norm and i would not recommend to the average or beginner hobbyist.


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## BillD

I don't normally do 98%, usually only 50 to 60%. Some of my tanks have substrate some don't. One tank, I was draining the water, got side tracked until I heard the fish splashing. The severums were barely covered, while lying on their sides, and this tank has gravel in it. I quickly filled the tank adding some dechlor. This was before I discovered the dechlor I was using was not as strong as claimed by the fellow who made it. No problem. That tank has only a sponge filter in it. I don't use cannisters. The normal schedule for this tank is about 60% weekly.
The tank that usually gets the big change is a bare bottomed 48" long 30. It has some variatus in it some plants and a ton of snails. Because of the detritus and mat algae buildup, it usually gets drained to within an inch or 2 of the bottom. This tank tends to get neglected, as I have been planning to break it down for a couple of years now.
I age my water for 20 feet, the length of the hose I use. My cold water comes through a carbon filter which removes some of the chlorine, but not the hot. My chlorine level is very high, probably around 4ppm. Compare that to a swimming pool which is kept at 1 to 1.5ppm
As far as beginners go, it is better to give no advice than bad advice. Too often I see statements like "never more than", when speaking of water changes. The reality is every tank is unique, and the only true way to know what the minimum change necessary is is to test for nitrates. However, it is my belief that doing the minimum is risky business. Changing more than the minimum is good insurance against problems. As a tank ages, it is likely to need more changes than when it was first set up, since the fish tend to grow, and the bioload increases. So, what was ideal at month 3 may be insufficient at month 12. If you did more than necessary from the start, you are less likely to have problems down the road. When you bring home new fish you are basically and putting them into a new tank you are basically giving them a 100% water change.
So, why would you not want to pass on the knowledge and methodology of old hands to beginners? Do you want them to make their own mistakes? Who needs the correct info more than beginners?


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## TBemba

with most cichlids changing less water is safer than too much. i have heard more people new to the hobby killing fish with large water changes than with smaller infrequent ones. by your own admission you say you neglect one tank (no harm done). 

I have been in the hobby well over 20 years and have talked to many people with a lot more experience than me and they for the most part say you can keep most african cichlids in poor conditions and that a tank too clean can cause issues.( i have seen many a lfs in my day with pretty dirty tanks)

that being said i get alot of grief when i tell people i clean my canister filters completely once a month. i tear them down and use straight from the tap water to clean the sponges and media (hot water to boot) and have never had issues with bacteria loss or spike issues. i do the same with my sponge filters that i have on smaller tanks. i also never use a test kit. i can judge by fish behaviour and i keep a weekly water change regiment and i have great success. 

i also use a python and use a mixture of hot/cold water in water changes to get the temp of new water going into the tank as close as possible. 

but i still believe if you are new to the hobby try to do stuff moderately; like water changes, feeding, adding fish, everything in small increments and you should be fine. it is when you over do anything you can run into issues.

i would still like to see you change 90% in a bare bottom tank with a python with straight cold tap water. i personally lost a group of fish this way once and learned a lesson. i haven't done it since and i haven't lost any fish


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## BillD

I don't use straight cold water. I use a mix of hot and cold and have an LCD thermometer on the output pipe to measure temp.
What you claim you have heard with regard to Africans and dirty water is the opposite of what I heard from keepers of Africans. Then again, the people who I have met who I would consider somewhat expert, feel clean water is the key to success with any type of fish.
Actually I don't test water either. Once upon a time I did, but when you get the same results over and over, you realize there is no need. Same with my pool. I rarely test anymore. 
Until I kill a fish with an extra large water change, I will believe that it is okay.


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## TBemba

I have to agree with you that clean water is key to keeping and breeding any fish. but to people new to the hobby i would advise against anything more than 40 - 50%. the biggest issue is over feeding and not doing water changes consistently.

I used to be crazy about discus a long time ago and did huge water changes every day and had great results. But i have read alot of forum posts and the common theme is i just did a water change and my fish started to do the jig and flippy flopps and dart all over then die. or all my fish are at the top of the tank breathing really hard what up with that. So i tend to give advise to beginners to take your time and do less not more.

I have not killed a fish in a long while but back when i did kill fish it was mostly do to being overly aggressive and fooling around with the aquarium.


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## BillD

40% to 50% is much bigger than what many advocate. If a beginner started with that, they would not likely have problems. I would consider that to be good advice. Really a water change of that size, weekly, is probably all that most tanks would ever need, aside from grow out tanks. The problem, as I see it, is that many would consider that overkill. We are pretty much on the same page here. It only took one damaged spawn of about 300 angels to demonstrate to me the need for clean water. I missed 2 days of water changes and there was permanent fin damage. The fish remained healthy but the dorsal and pelvic fins became rounded. Those fish would never reach their potential in terms of finnage.


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