# Equipment to make a Taiwan Moss Wall



## zfarsh

Hi All,

Wanted to put taiwan moss on the glass of the backwall of a 75 gallon tank. I hear that this moss can attach itself to the wall, but no idea as to how. I looked everywhere in Wallmart and Dolarama for plastic strainers, but never were able to find any, and besides, i suspect the wholes in the grids will not be large enough. I need a system that is safe where shrimps dont get cought in it and die, and yet good for the wall to easily develop. Looking on ideas on whats out there. Thanks in advance.


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## zfarsh

I just found this link, which is weird as the idea came to my mind a few seconds before i clicked on the site:

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/321839-constructing-a-moss-wall-the-insta-wall-approach/

Now, where can i get this tank divider (didnt see it on big al's website)?
Alternatively, maybe get a plastic grid (still dont know where), and size up a proper plastic wall from home depot, and somehow attach the grid to it after puting the moss on the grid. This would allow for easy maintenance / portability.


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## Will

Hi Farshad, The method used on that link looks very very good. Also, I think there is a buried thread by user "JRS" about his beautiful moss walls- you might find it by searching. I've seen people do them with a couple suction cups and some some mesh screen. I have some like shown below if you want to give that a try. This method allows the moss to grow right through the mesh.


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## zfarsh

where can i get good quality succion cups? They dont make those types of tank dividers no more (will check home depot if i see something similar.

With the succion cups, and mesh as shown in that picture above, i am scared that shrimps may get in between, so i may use filter floss in between wall and mesh.

Alternatively, i thoughed maybe i could use a rubber mat that you can buy from Wallmart / canadian tire, as per bellow, put the moss on it, and run a long fish line through it, or simply make holes at short distances to cross the wires. Problem is, i dont know what plastics are fish safe, or what rubbers/material i shoudl avoid, if any.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...Fatigue+Foam+Floor+Mat,+Diamond.jsp?locale=en
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...or/Mats/PRD~0681675P/Rubber+Mat.jsp?locale=en

A disadvantage of this is the large space it would take, removing bioload and water quantity much more significantly, thant using the grid mesh most use. So using the standard mesh or maybe finding a plastic glass type part from Home depot seems as a better idea.

Update: Just found this nice looking mat that is grid type and is made of 100% virgin rubber, the only thing is i dont know how thick it is, so if too much, then this would not be viable. Is the construction safe for fish / shrimps ?

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...i-Fatigue+Floor+Mat,+36+x+36-in.jsp?locale=en

Finaly, is Black Vinyl material ok for fish?:
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hardware-mesh-36-inches-x-15-feet-black/953125


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## Will

If shrimps can get in behind, likely they can get out too... What shrimps are you worried about? I've opened up cannister/HOB filters after months to find living shrimps (rcs/amano) inside, so I don't see this as a huge concern personally. Not $10 fan shrimp, but I don't see them going up there.

Suction cups can be found at most LFS and Bigboxstores. They don't necessarily need to be top quality, as you can stick them to the glass and then slide them down into the gravel, the top can drape over the rim of the aquarium and be secured to the outside.

Alternatively, Epoxy coated magnets could be used, such as: http://www.gaussboys.com/magnets/Epoxy-Coated-Magnets/

I can't comment on any of those products, but they all look very expensive to try for your first moss wall.


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## zfarsh

Hi Will,

thanks for the comments. I was worried about RCS (dont have any yet) and Amano Shrimps. But if they can live there behind the screen, then maybe the succion cup way will be good after all. But i like the magnets idea alot more, are these safe for fish and shrimp? They would make everything super duper easy with the plastic grid!!! Is there a way to get the epoxy coated magnets locally? So excited now. 

Farshad


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## Will

zfarsh said:


> Hi Will,
> thanks for the comments. I was worried about RCS (dont have any yet) and Amano Shrimps. But if they can live there behind the screen, then maybe the succion cup way will be good after all. But i like the magnets idea alot more, are these safe for fish and shrimp? They would make everything super duper easy with the plastic grid!!! Is there a way to get the epoxy coated magnets locally? So excited now.
> Farshad


Yes I've seen these epoxy coated magnets have been used in FW and SW tanks by other forum members. I would not know where to buy them locally. You'll need to find out what size/power of magnet you'd need for the thickness of the glass+mesh on your tank.


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## J-P

I used a needle point mesh .. it is much more rigid and can be cut to some nice shapes. used suction cups also..


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## zfarsh

Tired some magnets with 1/3" distance apart using paper/magazine, and they wont stick, so it means i need probably very strong magnets for a 75g tank, so none of that i guess for now.

ok, just went to canadian tire and got a mesh, called the weed control:
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...+Weed+Barrier,+Commercial+Grade.jsp?locale=en

It was like 5 - 6 $ for the size i got, which i think will be large enough for the whole tank if doing one layer, which is what i will try at first. I will lay down the a mesh , put moss on it, then tie them up with a fish line which i also bought. Will be a very long process, and probably take many days, but it will give much faster results over 2 layers of mesh, and moss in between. Anyways, will try this on one side of the wall, and give some updates as they become available. I may do different level, meaning using 2 - 3 sections of mesh to cover the one side wall, each on top of each other.

What is a Needle Point Mesh, and what is the advantage. Any pictures?


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## Will

Yes, not just any magnets will work. You need super strength magnets like the ones i linked to for this application.

Needle point mesh is like fabric with large open squares woven into it, that a sticher would weave coloured thread into, to create an image.


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## zfarsh

What is the advantage of this Needle Point Mesh, vrs just a mesh such that i bought, and where can i find it? Ie, why buy this?


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## jediwiggles

*Fibreglass mesh*

I've done it with the suction cups. Rcs will be fine, it's the fish ya gotta out think...

I used the fiberglass mesh for fixing screens from home depot. It worked well for peacock moss. Use 2 layers and sew them together. Works well, doesn't grow fast at first but once a bit pokes through it will look great.

Cheers


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## Will

jediwiggles said:


> Fibreglass mesh
> I've done it with the suction cups. Rcs will be fine, it's the fish ya gotta out think...


Agreed, I've also used fiberglass mesh, on a wood log instead of in a moss wall configuration, it didn't take too long for moss fronds to grow through the mesh, and I had it in _really _poor conditions. Once it poked through, it really got going quickly.


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## J-P

I seem to have misplaced my needle point mesh... it is a more rigid plastic type. The only advantage is that when cut to size it doesn't unravel and fray.

You can purchase it at anyplace that sells sewing materials, Sears, The Bay etc...


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## Alexpatrascu

When I made my xmass moss wall in my R.I.P 10 gal I used this !!!

And I didn't used any suction cups.....I used magnets from *these guys*...they are small but man they're strong...I got the ones that are *plastic coated* for the inside of the tank and the ones that are *epoxy coated* for the outside.

I just tied the moss with fishing line on one side of the canvas and I just put it in my tank...no need for a second canvas to cover the first one...just put it with the moss on the glass and the moss grew through the holes.

I decided to go with the magnets cuz the canvas was flushed to the glass so there weren't too many problems with anything going behind the wall.

Still have the magnets(10&10)....if you're interested in buying some, I can send them your way(free shipping).


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## J-P

yep ... that is the same stuff I used


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## Alexpatrascu

J-P said:


> yep ... that is the same stuff I used


Yeap, good stuff...rigid but yet flexible.

And you can always take it out and add some moss on the spots where the wall is not filled in yet !!!


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## zfarsh

wow, thats alot of great ideas. I will have to return the mesh i bought from Canadian Tire for sure

now on to the questions:

*For all:*
Why do you not put the moss on the side of the aquarium, and not have a mesh between the water side and the moss? Since you are sowing it anyways, why is everyone using a mesh on the side between the moss and the aquarium, instead of puting only a mesh on the side of the glass? I would think results would be better this way, and more moss can be see faster. What is the disadvantage of what i am proposing?

*jediwiggles and Will: *
- Fiberglass Mesh: Ok, what is the advantage of this one vrs what i bought from Canadian Tire? 
- Is this what you are talking about? :
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hardware-mesh-36-inches-x-15-feet-black/953125
- Any old pictures of what was accomplished with this?

*Alexpatrascu and J-P:*
- So this canvas is hard and does stays straight (doesnt fold up like the mesh does), right? If so, indeed this is a super good option, really like it, no mater if i go magnet or suction cup.
- The Canvas, I have to get these online as per the site, or are these same things available in local stores, and if so, where? Can i get these same Canvas from Sears / Bay?
- Do i need the 7 count, or 5 count?
- The magnets would make it excellent for maintenance, and actually, i was at that site today, but i feared the magnets would not be strong enough for a 75 gallon.


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## Alexpatrascu

That's what I said in the post above:
"I just tied the moss with fishing line on one side of the canvas and I just put it in my tank...no need for a second canvas to cover the first one...just put it with the moss on the glass and the moss grew through the holes."

Yes the canvas is a rigid(yet flexible) plastic mesh.

You can prolly get them in stores...I got mine online(paid a little bit more than I wanted for the shipping)

Take a look *here* !!!

When it comes to the 7 or 5 count issue....it's up to you.

I used 7 count and it worked great. You can decide once you see the canvas "in person"

7 count means there are 7 small squares in one inch....so you'll have to decide which one you wanna go with.

The magnets are great for this job and I believe they'll work even on a 75 gal.

I remeber when I received them they were sy\tacked one on top of the other and I dropped them on my washing machine....there were so stucked on the machine...man.....


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## zfarsh

Hey Alex,

Thanks for the response, but it is possible we are saying the opposite way:

"I just tied the moss with fishing line on one side of the canvas and I just put it in my tank...no need for a second canvas to cover the first one...just put it with the moss on the glass and the moss grew through the holes."

So, i understand from moss growing through the holes that the canvas is on the side of the fish, and the moss is on the side of glass, thus moss grows out of the whole.

What i was saying is, why not have the moss on the side of the fish, and the canvas on the side of the glass. The holes would be irrelevant, only used for stiching. This would allow the moss to grow faster. Just donot see why everyone is doing the reverse, as the way i am suggesting seems to be faster growing, and cant see why it would have that would be less advantageous.


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## J-P

you can experiment with it. I tried the sandwich method and it didn't work out so good.

Finally, I laid mine flat and let it grow out a bit that way at first before I attached it to the wall for a full grow out.

But yes, you should be able to find it in the sewing section of sears / the bay etc...


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## Alexpatrascu

zfarsh said:


> What i was saying is, why not have the moss on the side of the fish, and the canvas on the side of the glass. The holes would be irrelevant, only used for stiching. This would allow the moss to grow faster. Just donot see why everyone is doing the reverse, as the way i am suggesting seems to be faster growing, and cant see why it would have that would be less advantageous.


Well that's one way you can go, no one says it's not Ok.

Give it a try and see how it goes.


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## Will

Advantage from using fiberglass mesh? I don't know. If you wanted to get rid of the moss wall at some point you could easily cut it up to sell, or to cover stones, wood, _filter pipes_.

Moss grows well, slow and steady, and it's growth is exponential. If you are in a big rush to have a complete moss wall and don't want to wait, then I'm sure some of these materials will be more effective and quick than others.

I guess the biggest advantage was that I was offering it for free or small trade.

Fiberglass mesh is the stuff used on your windows. It's woven, not fused together like the vinyl stuff you bought/linked.

(also that plastic stiching mesh can be bought at Micheals Craft Stores, and "50% off one item" cupons are available on their website and newspaper flyers like every week)


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## zfarsh

ok thanks guys.

I printed off my 40% off sale from the net, and went to Michaels on my break, and they did have Plastic Canvas, but i think it was white, it was a number 10 (thoguh i dont think it will matter to me the way i am planing to set this up), and it was like 10 x 12 " max. Cant say it was super stiff, but i know it will keep its form with only 4 magnets, maybe even 2 for the bottom ones.

Will have a look at The Bay and Sears after work at Oakville Place. Hopefully will find something, otherwise i may give that website with the specialized Canvas a shot, unless someone knows somewhere in Oakville / Burlington /Mississauga with a larger Canvas that would preferably be clear or black, but otherwise i guess the white one will have to do.


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## zfarsh

ok, went to Sear, the Bay and Home Sense.... nothing!!!

Went to Wall Mart, they have it!!!  And the are #7, clear plastic, and they have the large 13.5 x 22" for 1.67 $/ea, which is great, but i will have to go back and buy the small ones too. The only problem is i believe this is not the ultra stiff, as it is bended a bit on some areas, meaning more magnets would be required.

Anyone know anywhere else i can try that may have the ultra stiff ones? I think maybe size 12 x 18 is perfect size.


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## J-P

mine were always white, but you can get clear. I have never seen black.

The colour is kind of a moot point since you what the entire thing "green"


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## zfarsh

Hey J.P, where do you get yours from anyways? And is it the ultrastiff one, or just regular?


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## J-P

I am not local to GTA anymore, but I got mine at V&S (a rural chain). It is very rigid and white. It does the job quite well and for under $2 I couldn't complain.


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## Alexpatrascu

J-P said:


> I am not local to GTA anymore, but I got mine at V&S (a rural chain). It is very rigid and white. It does the job quite well and for under $2 I couldn't complain.


Rigid is nice.

I had the one that's a little flexible and it was good.

Farshad, just keep the mesh on a flat surface(maybe put something on top too) and it will become straight.


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## zfarsh

thanks guys, but i really really wish i had the rigid ones. The amount of effort required to put all the moss on the canvas is quiete alot, so i want to do it right once.

The online places either take too long to receive, or their shipping rate from the states is unbelievable!!!


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## zfarsh

ok, called a few more places, like DeSerres, Oakville Sewing Centre, Curry's Art Store.... nothing

But, i then called Tahl Products Ltd, they apparently have the stiff ones (as well as non-stiff), at 12x18 and 14x22, and it is only 1.89 $/ea. I am so exited, too bad they close very early, so may go tomorow to pick these up. Will keep you guys updated, if this works out, other pll can use this thread in the future for some good information on making a moss wall.


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## zfarsh

ok, got it, bought a few, and its a bit better than the ones from Walmart, but not much. Price is similar in any case, and it is less warped and made in the USA. 

Now, i did build the wall partially, but it looks so ugly now untill it develops in the next few weeks / months, that i am thinking of redoing it, and putting a black grid in between. THe one from Canadian Tire seems to have no holes, will try to return it. Where can i get a plastic (non metal) grid locally? I would attach the grid to the canvas, and it will look great while waiting for it to develop.


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## Norman

Stupid question here...but I'd love to try that. How do you get the moss to attach?


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## Will

Norman said:


> Stupid question here...but I'd love to try that. How do you get the moss to attach?


You either sew it on , or sandwhich it between two mesh-like materials.


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## zfarsh

i am using a fishing line to sewing it in, and no sandwiching.


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## J-P

yea don't sandwich it with this material


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## zfarsh

got my magnets and black mesh, will redo my wall all over, will take a long time, but i like doing it while watching a nice space show such as Through the Wormhole or Wonders of the World or Cosmos.


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## zfarsh

guys, this new wall, without even the moss, is 10x better than just a black wallpaper. The white canvas underneath, followed by a black pet screen (phifer brand in my case from Home Depot) which is the surface visible in the tank, makes it wonderfull. Its like the black wall is illuminated by the white in its back, and gives a very nice effect. So i would keep this even without the wall. I will take pictures later on. Took me hours to sow it properly and put a bit of moss, but enjoying it quiete alot.


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## zfarsh

ok, here are the pics, showing "before", the Canvas only, and "after", with the black mesh screen attached to the Canvas


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## J-P

it doesn't look bad. It will fill in with time 

I am surprised that GF hasn't eaten it all


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## Will

Is your Gf an SAE or something?


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## zfarsh

there are actually 4 goldfish in there, one oranda, one ranchu, one fantail, one black moore. They do sometimes nible i bit on it, not too much though.


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## Will

Ooooooooooooohhhhhhh GF meaning Goldfish, and not Girlfriend. Oh man. Where am I? Who am I?


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## J-P

LOL!! One of those moments??


My GF tore apart any and all attempts at having plants (of any kind) in the tank. It was the "Arizona" look. It would have been cool if I had wanted a bunch of twigs in the tank.


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## Will

J-P said:


> LOL!! My GF tore apart any and all attempts at having plants (of any kind) in the tank. It was the "Arizona" look. It would have been cool if I had wanted a bunch of twigs in the tank.


Your girlfriend sounds like a jerk man! LOl


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